00:00:00
why do you always go Christopher Watkin whenever you do these outros why do you do that thanks for listening to the all
00:00:06
in podcast wow David Sachs poignant points about regulatory capture freeberg loves mock meets not for me Chamas
00:00:20
everyone loves a Great Dictator we'll see you next time oh podcast w love you boys so good one your better
00:00:36
Impressions everyone's got their superpower that's your super nasty nasty Jal butu it don'tu I'm coming on I'm
00:00:44
coming on all in Let Your winners [Music] ride David and instead we open source it to
00:00:56
the fans and they've just gone crazy with it love you Queen hey freeberg you want to tell them about
00:01:04
your new family members oh my god did did he get more dogs is he trying to Dave foro this again oh miss pacher so
00:01:12
I'm like working all day Friday I'm like wiped out I'd been in I can't remember oh yeah I was in Santa Cruz I made it
00:01:19
all the way back up through the traffic I get up to the house I've been texting and calling all afternoon no response
00:01:26
I'm like what theck is going on normally she'll text me like just walk through the door open the door to my car every
00:01:32
little thing so for her to not be calling me back as something's up I walk in the house the kids are there they're
00:01:37
jumping up and down daddy daddy we got two new dogs and I'm like what the are you talking about we didn't get two
00:01:42
new dogs what are you think mommy's got two new dogs and then Mommy took him to the vet she'll be back in a few minutes
00:01:48
I'm like no way and I had some friends coming over for dinner they walk in the house the kids are jumping up and down 2
00:01:54
minutes later walks in the house these two dogs that sh someone found in a parking lot and Jose and they couldn't
00:02:01
find a home for these dogs and they were like the dogs don't have a home decided
00:02:05
I'll take them into my home and I'm like you this is why you didn't call me you didn't text me I walked out the room I'm
00:02:11
like it's over it's been nice knowing you the kids are screaming daddy you can't get rid of the dogs they're our
00:02:16
dogs now these are the best dogs so now we have four dogs how much was the vet belt and then I come down that night
00:02:22
huge in the dining room like multiple diarrhea plopped all over the floor I walked downstairs the whole house was
00:02:29
smelling of poop oh my God my house has become like you know those Carnival trains that used to go from City to City
00:02:35
back in the 19th century if one of those trains like fell over and Spilled open that's basically what my house has
00:02:40
become it just smells like poo and hay and there's clowns and children running around and I live in there did I ever
00:02:48
tell you the the story of Chuck Norris the Chihuahua no no no so I'm going to a wedding I'm in like Arizona I'm driving
00:02:58
like on one of these giant like like Arizona streets and a Chihuahua runs across this like eight Lane
00:03:05
Boulevard whatever and I'm like oh my God I'm like dodging around it and it goes into the other side of traffic and
00:03:11
I see a car and he just the dog Ducks he misses the car I'm like oh thank God my
00:03:17
wife is screaming her head off the dog gets whacked by another car and it goes rolling down the highway I make a U-turn
00:03:25
I block it the dog's knocked out on the side of the road I run up to the dog I pick it up I'm like a this dog's gonna
00:03:31
die you know and I I get in the car I said let's just take it to a vet whatever and I'm saying goodbye to the
00:03:39
dog the dog's like looking up at me it's in bad shape we go to a vet I give it to
00:03:45
the vet we go to the wedding my wife who is like got this big heart uh decides she's gonna stay with the dog so I go to
00:03:54
the wedding I go to the you know opening night party she's with she's at the 24-hour vet sitting with this dog
00:04:00
waiting for it to die in hospice oh my God the dog doesn't die the dog survives sorry now it's
00:04:08
Monday and I get the alert on my credit card $122,000 yeah yeah 12 yeah ,000 on this dead dog I'm
00:04:20
like the dog survives I bring the dog back to the Bay Area the dog's fine I can't believe it but you know it's got
00:04:29
like a broken leg all the stuff but you know he's generally he the dog's alive so I put him on social media I'm like
00:04:35
anybody want Chuck Norris a dog that cannot die this is like the toughest Chihuahua you ever
00:04:40
seen some of these rich people uh in San Francisco living on like a certain Street uh on Broadway or something like
00:04:48
that turns out they're like they're heirs to something famous they live in like three states
00:04:56
they got a private jet all this nonsense they say we'll take the dog they're friends with a couple of our
00:05:01
mutuals so I'm like this is great I'm going to get the 12 Grand from them CU I looked these people up they
00:05:12
got a private jet I don't got a private jet they got three houses so they come down to pick up the dog with their
00:05:18
driver and everything and we're delivering the dog and I tell Jade hey can we let them know about the $122,000
00:05:25
Bill maybe they'll pick it up or we can split it it's like a Larry DAV and my wife is like if you bring that up
00:05:32
with them I'm divorcing you we have to pay the 12,000 so I pay the 12,000 they proceed to then send us pictures of
00:05:39
Chuck Norris on private jets you know for years to this day Chuck Norris living this life and I paid 12 Grand to
00:05:47
save this freeberg told me this story I found it so hilarious but I told him you know after
00:05:54
we got Joker when Jason when you came to visit us in for of theadom me Joker had
00:05:59
like jaria so he was just everywhere and you know we got through it and then three months ago when you guys were at
00:06:08
my house for poker Shawn made octopus and left some raw octopus in a garbage bag outside and Joker and Joker ate it
00:06:17
and he got such terrible poisoning we had to take him to the to the emergency animal hospital where he stayed for like
00:06:23
a week that was by the way [Music] 17K but ever since he came back he's been completely incontinent so I was
00:06:31
telling freeer that Nat and I now just wake up half an hour early and what we do now from 6:30 to usually 645 is we're
00:06:38
cleaning up some form of feces that he's left somewhere in the house we have to go and find where did he take a let's go
00:06:46
clean it up and the worst one was he once pooped through one of the greates with this really bad poo and I
00:06:53
had to go and just fetch it all out it was just disgusting oh right in the gr fantastic right in the gr yeah so there
00:06:58
you have it folks go adopt a pet uh there's your ringing endorsement 4 to $177,000 in Veterinary bills and
00:07:07
cleaning up all day long and replacing carpets listen we got a big docket today I know it's a bit early in the year but
00:07:15
I am going to add a new category or I'm proposing a new category would love to hear your feedback on it for the 2024
00:07:22
besties most based CEO lots of options to choose from right now which we'll get into in a minute but there seems to be a
00:07:29
bit of a Vibe shift happening in t during Peak Zer and cancel culture 2019 to 2021 era seemed like CEOs were a little
00:07:39
Vigilant about what they would say you know the Tim Cooks the Sundar but something has clearly changed Tech CEOs
00:07:44
have gotten radically candid and fired their comms group two great examples this week that we were talking about
00:07:52
Jensen Wong the CEO of Nvidia had this awesome clip when speaking at Stanford's Graduate School of Business I think one
00:07:59
of my great advantages is that I have very low expectations and I mean that most of the Stanford graduates have very
00:08:06
high expectations people with very high expectations have very low resilience and unfortunately resilience matters in
00:08:13
success I don't know how to teach it to you except for I hope suffering happens to you to this day I use the word the
00:08:19
phrase pain and suffering inside our company with great Glee boy this is going to cause a lot of pain and
00:08:23
suffering and I mean that in a happy way because you want to train you want to refine the character of your company you
00:08:29
want greatness out of them and greatness is not intelligence greatness comes from
00:08:32
character and character isn't formed out of smart people it's formed out of people who suffered and then next up
00:08:38
paler CEO Alex karp called out the coked up short sellers on cnpc I love burning the short sellers
00:08:47
like almost nothing makes a human happier than taking the lines of cocaine and away from these short sellers who
00:08:56
like are going short on a truly Great American company not just ours but I just love pulling down Great American
00:09:02
companies so that they can pay for their Coke and the best thing that could happen to them is we will provide we
00:09:08
will lead their Coke dealers to their homes after they can't pay their bills that's like one of my surely all short
00:09:15
sellers yeah well you know go ahead do your thing we'll do our thing there you have it folks of
00:09:21
course we we uh had elon's great good for you at uh some New York Times conference always candid and even
00:09:33
Zuckerberg he's been getting a little based he did a whole video about how the Apple Vision Pro was when compared to
00:09:40
meta Quest 2 he he's getting a little frisky on the social media freeberg is the vibe shift real it seems
00:09:49
like a lot of people are less worried about cancel culture as they were three years ago so I don't know if it's just
00:09:56
in Silicon Valley broadly in Media and broadly culturally there seems to be a move away from cancel culture mentality
00:10:04
and people are speaking their mind more which is yeah I think obviously positive and
00:10:11
refreshing saak you're a big fan of uh freedom of speech your thoughts on this Vibe shift is it is this related to
00:10:19
cancel culture kind of ending and journalists just not being able to cancel people because they misspoke or
00:10:26
were a little spicy in their takes well I like the fact that these CEOs are all being colorful in their remarks and
00:10:33
candid and interesting and that that's always a good thing and in each of these cases I kind of like what they had to
00:10:40
say but I think that you might or we collectively might be reading a little bit too much into this I mean at the end
00:10:48
of the day what sacred cows are they really challenging what real dangerous truths are they speaking
00:10:55
what real risks are they taking I just don't put any of the things that they're saying are doing in the same category as
00:11:02
say what Elon has been doing in terms of taking on the powers that be in terms of
00:11:06
rolling back censorship and promoting free speech on on X I mean Elon I think has taken some real risks in doing that
00:11:16
and you see that he's paying the price with all these government investigations and the voiding of his compensation
00:11:23
package that I think is just in a slightly different category of True risk-taking by speaking truth to power
00:11:31
or allowing the masses to speak truth to power compared to what these other guys
00:11:36
are doing and I'm not disparaging any of them but you know look at them one by one I mean Alex Kart made a colorful
00:11:41
joke at the expense of short Traders I agree but it's not really a risky remark Jensen Wang is giving some tough love to
00:11:51
Stanford students he's giving them I think a good lesson of stop being so entitled go get some real life
00:11:58
experience be resilient okay great message I saw the Zuckerberg clip liked it as well
00:12:04
he's basically speaking from a place of passion about his own product and comparing it to Apple okay great that's
00:12:11
what he's supposed to do I don't see any of those CEOs take again if you want to
00:12:15
compare it to Elon taking a really dangerous political stance in fact remember when Zuckerberg got dragged to
00:12:22
cap Hill and gave that testimony and they demanded that he give that apology he did it I mean genu flected I thought
00:12:30
that word was banned on this pod only one applied to me anybody else can be genu I mean I I
00:12:38
thought he was just showing some Humanity which is you know kind of paradoxical look I I get it in that
00:12:44
moment but I'm just saying that like if you want to put it in the same category as Elon the thing to do would have been
00:12:49
to punch back and I think in that moment it was who it was Josh Holly the thing to do would have been to say no it's
00:12:55
it's you who are exploiting the misery and suffering of all of these people by trying to score political points so
00:13:02
anyway I super based yeah yeah that would have been super based so all I'm saying is that it's one thing for these
00:13:09
Founders and CEOs to be colorful and candid or whatever that's all great but have they really taken political courage
00:13:18
your thoughts jamath on based CEOs well I think Jason the the takeaway I think you're almost on the right point but not
00:13:27
quite I don't think this is based or not based I think the point is everybody is
00:13:32
exhausted with the multiple layers of word scrambled gymnastics that people have had to play and they're like
00:13:41
enough's enough I think the more interesting way to look at this is that there was a fewe period where a lot of
00:13:49
companies were under a lot of pressure and folks felt that they couldn't say what was on their mind to
00:13:56
really fix the problems that they saw now you have you know both of the companies and the CEOs you pointed out
00:14:02
are firing on all cylinders as far as anybody can tell from the outside and there's a certain level of political
00:14:08
Capital that comes with that and they're choosing to spend it and I think that's
00:14:12
the interesting takeaway which is as these companies become successful again as Tech reemerges again from this
00:14:20
multi-year malaise are folks going to find their voice or not and I think that's the big point which is that it
00:14:29
seems at least that we can see this next generation of winning companies seems to
00:14:34
have CEOs that will take a different path they'll be maybe closer than Elon then closer to a
00:14:41
politician yeah it's I loved Wong's comments just about his secret weapon is he has incredibly low expectations by
00:14:49
the way if you had said if you had said that comment a few years ago the whole pain and suffering thing would somebody
00:14:55
would have said I felt triggered it touched my childhood trauma you know I had X Y and Z happen to me and it's not
00:15:02
that those people don't have valid claims but they would have aired it in a way that tried to get him cancelled
00:15:09
effectively yeah he would be out of touch he would be talking down to people he'd be a billionaire telling people
00:15:15
like to suck it up what and by the way in In fairness I bet you there are people that felt that way even today
00:15:20
when listening to his clip the thing that is different though was the rest of us who also have had pain and suffering
00:15:26
in our lives retweeted it and was just like this is 100% awesome yeah I mean finally candid
00:15:34
advice Elon used to always say happiness equals this was his happiness formula happiness
00:15:42
equals expectation reality minus expectations and so if your expectations are really high and reality doesn't hit
00:15:50
it you're going to be sad and if you keep your expectations low and reality is you know okay or good yeah you you
00:15:55
could be happy in life but freberg I just love of those quotes uh maybe some thoughts
00:16:02
about suffering and how hard it is you're back in the CEO's seat how's that been going for you
00:16:09
generally speaking how hard is it compared to being a capital allocator I'm curious I was going to talk to you
00:16:14
about that offline anyway I probably have an unhealthy affinity for suffering I think
00:16:23
that if you come from certain backgrounds you're sort of trained that that's the place that your
00:16:34
unconscious tends to want to be and I think that that also some people call it chips on shoulders some
00:16:42
people call it motivation I mean look at your friend Elon how much suffering he puts his himself
00:16:49
through I think it's a requisite to to Greatness is you have to really find ways to sacrifice now if I've said this
00:16:56
a lot there's a reason a lot of people that have had success in their career don't end up being great entrepreneurs
00:17:04
because as soon as you're faced with failure for the first time it doesn't pattern match to what's happened to you
00:17:10
historically I go to a good school I get good grades I go to Stanford I get a degree everything about every step you
00:17:16
do you're told if you do X you will get Y and then you do X and you get Y and you repeat and at some point you're
00:17:23
considered successful in your education in your career and so on if you then decide that on entrepreneurship is the
00:17:29
path for you you realize that entrepreneurship is that there is no ifx then y there is ifx maybe y maybe Z
00:17:39
maybe a hundred other things that'll smack you in the face and that experience is shockingly different for
00:17:44
people that have historically followed a path of success of what's defined as success culturally socially and I think
00:17:50
that that's really what he's speaking to if you've grown up where all of your expectations have not been met or many
00:17:55
of the expectations have not been met you realize that persistence grit perseverance relentlessness these are
00:18:01
the necessary traits to be successful in entrepreneurship and I think that I find
00:18:06
myself much happier in that condition than in any other condition and it's why I'm actually very happy in the work I'm
00:18:11
doing right now yeah I I think it that resonates a lot with me and all the entrepreneurs that I back they all have
00:18:20
that chip and you got to be careful not to get caught up in the trappings and really focus on solving problems if you
00:18:26
think about what a CEO does all day you hire the smartest team you know you give
00:18:31
them the biggest challenges as much autonomy as you can and then they return back to you with all the problems the
00:18:37
smartest people you could find to join your team can't fix so then your life becomes essentially you know what's left
00:18:44
over that is the most brutal to solve and you know there's only a certain percentage of people who can do that day
00:18:52
and and day out just relentlessly be how do you reconcile how do you reconcile that statement Jason with
00:18:59
the proposition that people should become entrepreneurs generally I think that this really res this really
00:19:06
challenges me whenever people say I'm thinking about starting a company my first response is no don't like you have
00:19:12
to be told over and over again to not start a company to test if they actually have the resilience and grit necessary
00:19:18
just to take the first step of starting the company I notion that everyone should be encouraged to start a company
00:19:24
and entrepreneurism is a is a career choice I think is a false notion I think that most most people are not
00:19:30
psychologically equipped for being successful in entrepreneurship yeah you're 100% right and I've gotten in my
00:19:35
later years as we run like found University of these programs when people are applying and we only accept 10% into
00:19:41
the programs and then only invest in 10% of those so net net like less than 1% get funded you know I'll ask them
00:19:48
they're like oh can you give us money so I can get a co-founder and I'm like you know what
00:19:53
you failed the first test of being an entrepreneur you know the first test of being an entrepreneur is can you
00:19:59
convince two or three people to go on this crazy Journey with you because it's important and without money and you know
00:20:05
people expect oh you're going to just give them the money because they have an interesting idea and then I asked them
00:20:09
what's your skill what do you do at the startup do you sell the product do you build the product and a lot of people do
00:20:14
not have the wherewithal to add a skill that the world needs being a developer a
00:20:21
ux designer A salesperson whatever it is right they don't have any skill and then
00:20:27
they also have no ability to convince somebody else with skills to start a company you if you if you can't have
00:20:34
marketable important skills yourself that you taught yourself on your own through sheer force of motivation and
00:20:41
will and opening up YouTube which really is not hard people like anybody can learn to code to be a ux designer to be
00:20:48
a salesperson all this is on some online course some book some YouTube video some podcast so just learn some
00:20:55
marketable skills that a startup needs and if you can't do that you shouldn't be a Founder I think the point is that
00:21:02
everybody's capable of being a founder and anybody can and should start a company it's just that very few can
00:21:07
finish a company and that is the resilience part where there's just so many ups and downs and you have to be
00:21:15
able to roll and survive and you have to just problem solve constantly and yeah there are very few people that are cut
00:21:22
up for it you have to be comfortable with failure you have to be comfortable with expectations not being met that's
00:21:28
the important Point that he's making I can't tell you how important it was early in my career I had several cold
00:21:33
calling jobs where I cold called college kids I cold called alumni I cold called
00:21:38
CEOs I had three different cold calling jobs and getting rejection after rejection failing in my life I didn't
00:21:44
get into any schools except for Berkeley because Berkeley didn't take teacher recommendations teachers I did not do
00:21:50
well in school and then playing poker taught me a lot because playing poker you lose hands you lose hands you lose
00:21:56
hands you lose hands you have to just make sure that you're making the right decisions and over time the money will
00:22:00
come to you the positive EV will be there but failure and persisting through failure I think was one of the most
00:22:05
important traits I had to develop before I was even ready to start a company because all that's happening every day
00:22:12
is failure when I had my first magazine I didn't understand I had just printed photo copies of and I had like 2,000
00:22:17
copies of this magazine silicon Aly reporter and I didn't know how to get them in people's hands so I just got a
00:22:23
luggage cart like a literal luggage cart I put them in the luggage cart and I walk walked around Lower Manhattan and I
00:22:30
just dropped them off at internet companies and I dropped them off at cafes and then I went to all the Village
00:22:36
Voice boxes and I just slotted them in in between the village Ro and miraculously people found it and then
00:22:42
they would subscribe and you know whatever it took was the approach all right everybody let's get to our second
00:22:49
topic it's a mini topic but did open AI just get caught with their hand in the cookie jar or the training data cookie
00:22:55
jar open AI CTO was interviewed by The Wall Street Journal this week during the interview you probably saw this if
00:23:02
you're on X it trended she was asked what data did opene use to train Sora if you don't know what Sor is we talked
00:23:07
about it here it's that incredible you know video create you know type in a text prompt get a video
00:23:14
back model and uh let's watch this clip and then discuss it what data was used to train Sora we used publicly available
00:23:24
data and licensed data so on YouTube I'm actually not sure about that okay videos
00:23:35
from Facebook Instagram you know if they were publicly available um available yet publicly
00:23:45
available to use um there might be that data but um I'm I'm not sure I'm not confident about it let me start with you
00:23:53
chath what are your thoughts here and just her not being super prepared there to answer a question or is this a
00:24:01
cookie jar situation what do you think I mean you got to think the CTO of an organization that whose job it is to
00:24:08
build models based on training data knows where the training data is from my interpretation of that answer is
00:24:16
that she is hesitating because she doesn't want to make a statement against interest right I want to show you guys
00:24:22
something I had a friend of mine somebody we all know who's deep in the heart of this AI
00:24:30
stuff he was he came to my office and he showed me this one really interesting thing which is when you launch chat GPT
00:24:38
and if you go into the microphone but you say nothing so just wait a few seconds turn on the microphone wait a
00:24:44
few seconds and turn it off I'll just do it right now just to show you it comes back and it says thank you for watching
00:24:49
which is typically what it shows you when you Auto watch a bunch of YouTube videos now why is that interesting well
00:24:59
if you say nothing right the model has clearly then is guessing that whenever you see you hear
00:25:06
silence that probabilistically the next best thing to translate that into is thank you for watching which would mean
00:25:12
that the training happened on a bunch of content where thank you for watching was
00:25:17
the next obvious thing so that when there's silence and the most obvious place where that happens is in YouTube I
00:25:24
don't know I thought that was an interesting little thing that he pointed out to me I don't know if anybody's
00:25:27
actually explored this but if it is true and Google decides they have an issue with it that's not good for these folks
00:25:35
freberg your thoughts I I think it's fine I I don't know why this is a controversial thing wellow I mean it's
00:25:41
obvious she's kind of lying on camera she definitely knows where the training data came from and it feels like c c i
00:25:48
mean I mean what YouTube is public so what's wrong with watching YouTube to teach a model stuff well you'd have to
00:25:56
get a license to make a derivative working because we've seen open AI has been doing that they're in a lawsuit
00:26:01
right now with the New York Times and they failed to negotiate their license so is they're making a derivative
00:26:08
work model they've licensed other people's data right yeah to get access to it that's
00:26:14
not publicly available you can go to YouTube downloader and download all this data you know what's crazy I heard from
00:26:19
someone at Google that under the terms of service Google's not allowed to train on YouTube data remember my I made this
00:26:25
point a couple weeks ago about how important YouTube data is I think there'd be this really ironic handicap
00:26:30
that Google's done to itself where anyone else can access and download and watch YouTube data to train models but
00:26:37
Google cannot I don't know if there's any Clarity on that but it's a pretty crazy fact pattern but yeah YouTube's on
00:26:42
the internet and I feel like anything that's on the open internet should be watchable by these models I don't
00:26:46
consider training models to be generation of derivative work that's my position and that's a position that
00:26:53
opening eye is taking the other side of that position CU they're going around licensing data sax any other thoughts
00:26:57
here about this corrup level well look I kind of agree with both you and freeberg
00:27:03
in terms of the part that I agree with freeberg I think that this issue is kind of more of the same of what we've been
00:27:08
talking about for a while which is clearly open AI trained its model on publicly available data that was
00:27:14
available on the on the internet I agree with freeberg that uh fair use Doctrine
00:27:19
should be applied to that I know that you have a different point of view on that Jal I don't know if we need to
00:27:23
rehash that I I understand that you don't think fair use should apply in any event
00:27:28
I think it's pretty clear that open AI train Sora using you know available data on the internet and that probably
00:27:36
included YouTube the part where I agree with you jcal is that I don't know if I would say that she's lying per se but I
00:27:45
think she's probably concerned that if she comes right out and and answers the question as directly
00:27:52
as she could that it could be a problem for them in all these lawsuits that they're now facing you know again think
00:27:58
that I would take the side in those lawsuits that fer should be allowed but I think that probably she is being
00:28:05
careful here because they are facing so many lawsuits about this training data it's going to be pretty clear chth I
00:28:11
think what the courts will decide here which is who's opportunity is it to make a SORA in the world if Disney owns a
00:28:19
massive collection of Ip and somebody should be able to use that IP to make derivative Works should it be Sora or
00:28:25
should it be Disney itself and so I think the journalists know full well what they're doing and now the
00:28:32
journalists have their hooks into this for a very real reason the journalists are also content creators so now we're
00:28:39
going to have this you know two sides forming journalist I just worry that these folks are not technical enough to
00:28:44
make this decision and you know when it goes into a court how is a judge really going to understand the nuances of this
00:28:51
to make a to make a call on this or the jury it's going to be a big education process yeah yeah or the jury yeah
00:28:58
speaking of AI vertical AI startups are starting to Make Some Noise we all know about large language models we've talked
00:29:05
about them here if you listen to this program you know about open AI Google's Gemini previously known as Bard
00:29:11
anthropic Claude all this stuff their general purpose they've been trained on the open internet as we were just
00:29:17
discussing so they can answer questions about almost anything and yeah sometimes
00:29:21
it's correct sometimes they're incorrect but it's showing promise there is another school of thought here that's
00:29:28
emerging in startups vertical AI these companies are kind of taking a job title a role in society and they are building
00:29:37
vertical apps Harvey is AI for lawyers a bridge is doing an AI notaker for doctors saves them hours a day according
00:29:45
to them tax GPT is an AI tax assistant NC is AI for customer support that's Brett teller's new startup this week a
00:29:54
startup called cognition debuted a tool called Devon they're calling it an AI software engineer the demos went viral
00:29:59
on X uh you probably seen them all over the place and in the news if you watch it you can see Devon fixing bugs in real
00:30:06
time fine-tuning an AI model building apps end to end and people are speculating Devon was built on GPT 4
00:30:14
from open AI That's not confirmed but according to the CEO Devon was built by tweaking reasoning and
00:30:20
long-term planning into an existing llm here's how it ranks against other major models on coding benchmarks they're
00:30:28
building all these benchmarks to test each language model and as you can see it's according to this chart and
00:30:34
according to their data doing much better than just a generic language model kind of makes sense jamat did you
00:30:41
see these demos this week I think I saw you on the group chat talking about it and what was your take on these
00:30:48
role-based vertical startups oh I think this is so powerful I mean it's incredible because we're measuring this
00:30:55
progress in like what week over week feels like that yeah I think the point that you should take away is that
00:31:04
the most of these very difficult in impenetrable job types for the average person if this if you said to them hey
00:31:13
become a developer that's like a complicated Journey right it's just going to be now
00:31:22
like a command line interface where you just kind of describe in English what you want to do and all all of this stuff
00:31:28
will just happen behind the scenes and it'll be totally automated so that'll grow the number of people that can use
00:31:36
these tools at the same time it'll make the developers I think even more valued because you're going to need people in
00:31:42
the guts of these models and in the code that it generates because it's not always going to work perfectly there's
00:31:48
always going to be some kind of hallucination some stuff is not going to compile now the demos that they did
00:31:53
though were incredible they were able to find errors they were able to remediate
00:31:56
errors in code that's I mean I just I think it's really really special you've been on co-pilots
00:32:04
for the past year talking about that this is slightly different we're moving from hey here's a co-pilot somebody
00:32:10
helping a developer to hey here's a developer working and now they have a supervisor so what do you think of these
00:32:17
sort of role-based agents and how quickly we went from year one co-piloting to okay now they're the
00:32:24
pilot and we're sitting in the co-pilot seat watching them fly the plane yeah well look F first of all everyone's
00:32:30
working on autonomous coding or working towards that this is like one of the core most obvious use cases of llms
00:32:38
because code is text and it can also be run through a compiler to debug it so you can also get to in theory you can
00:32:45
get to high levels of accuracy yet although in the example that you gave Jason this new product was only at 133%
00:32:52
so there's still a long way to go but the potential is clearly there so a lot lot of companies are working on some
00:33:00
variation of this idea Devon is I guess you could call it an agent first approach and I think
00:33:08
that's very cool for generating new software projects but where I think this gets much trickier and is much more
00:33:16
difficult is when you're working in existing code bases and just to talk my own book for a second we're an investor
00:33:22
in a company called Source graph they have a product called Cody and their whole approach is context first as
00:33:27
opposed to agent first it's all about getting the co-pilot to work inside of existing code bases so different
00:33:34
companies are coming at this from different approaches GitHub co-pilot I think is kind of more like Cody where
00:33:39
it's all about making an existing code base more useful whereas Devon again is starting with I think net new code bases
00:33:47
but that's going to demo really well and so that's what you're seeing is like these really cool Demos in any event the
00:33:52
larger picture here is that we are going to get better at better at COD cing autonomously I guess you could say and I
00:34:01
don't know if it gets ever gets to 100% where you don't need coders anymore but it's going to make coders much more
00:34:07
productive over time you're going to get this huge multiplier effect on the ability to write code and that's really
00:34:13
exciting for a bunch of obvious reasons free BR we've been tracking this Evolution from you know Gmail guess the
00:34:20
next word guess the next phrase guess the next sentence to co-pilots now we have these role-based agent
00:34:29
based solutions that startups are pursuing what's next if we follow this thread what would the next Evolution
00:34:38
here be well the big push has been for this notion of AGI to replace a human and I think what we're seeing
00:34:47
is software that replaces a specific human doing a specific thing like being a lawyer being an accountant
00:34:58
being an art director if you think about the internet when the internet which was
00:35:03
like networking software and the capabilities that arose from the connection of all these computers during
00:35:08
the internet era The Innovation was everyone tried to create a business model which was how do you take an
00:35:13
existing vertical business and put it on the internet I think what we're seeing in this era is everyone's taking a
00:35:19
vertical human and creating a vertical version of a human um in the AI era and so um I think like the the success will
00:35:29
probably ACR to one company that replaces one set of core human services like being a lawyer being an
00:35:37
accountant you know being an artist in whatever way and that that ends up being the specific vertical tool that people
00:35:46
will use to automate and scale up their ability to do that task in an automated way because I think that there's like a
00:35:53
great deal of capability that emerges in the fine tuning and the unique data that certain
00:35:59
people may have to make that one tool better than the rest and therefore everyone will end up using this one
00:36:04
lawyer service or this one Accounting Service or what have you so I definitely think that's kind of what we're seeing
00:36:10
yeah I think it's pretty obvious where this is going you got co-pilots assisting a developer or a lawyer then
00:36:17
the next or a writer then they got the next phase okay you've got a peer so you're doing peer programming or
00:36:22
somebody's kind of working alongside you you're checking their work hey maybe they're even checking your work seeing
00:36:27
if you have bugs where this is going to be next year is there's going to be a conductor there's going to be somebody
00:36:32
who has a role or a piece of software has a role where you say hey you're a CEO of a company you're a Founder a
00:36:39
product manager here's your lawyer here's your accountant here's your developers here's your designer and now
00:36:45
you will coordinate those five people now imagine how that changes startups when you as an individual have a
00:36:52
conductor working with you and says you know what I don't know if I agree with this legal advice that's coming in in
00:36:57
relation to the tax advice and maybe we should not even add this feature to the program let's talk to the product
00:37:04
manager the agent product manager about taking that feature out so we don't have
00:37:07
these Downstream legal issues and we don't even have to file taxes in this you know area it's going to get really
00:37:12
interesting next year when they have a conductor the other way it may go Jason is you have a lawyer that has 50
00:37:20
Associates working for them through the AI so you don't replace the lawyer you don't replace the software engineer the
00:37:26
software engineer level up and now the software engineer has 50 Engineers available 50 agents running doing tasks
00:37:32
for them you do still you do still need humans with domain expertise and creativity to Think Through architecture
00:37:38
to Think Through process and to make sure that the AI agents are doing their job so I think what it creates is
00:37:45
extraordinary leverage for people and organizations which is why generally economic productivity goes up people
00:37:50
don't lose jobs they level up in this phase the the Opex of companies will probably be cut in half mhm
00:37:58
at the limit I think Jason is actually absolutely right I think you find that there'll be millions of companies with
00:38:05
one person and then a whole layer of software and conductors and agents and Bots that's the future yeah so you won't
00:38:12
have these engineering people that person should be running their own company and so you'll just have millions
00:38:17
and millions and millions and maybe billions of companies and I think that that's really exciting not all of them
00:38:23
will work many of them will fail and a few of them will be ginormous and it'll be up to the person who can
00:38:30
navigate and be a conductor as you said you know yeah be really interesting the solo entrepreneur movement of the last
00:38:36
couple years there were all these kind of like independent hackers building one item like Phil Kaplan did with um drro
00:38:43
kid he just had like two or three people working on that got very big you know I
00:38:47
was telling you guys about that slopes app I showed you I I I reached out to the founder of that I was like hey tell
00:38:51
me about the business like it's enough of a business to support one person or two people like there will be a lot of
00:38:56
these app apps or Services one conductor and you know it makes what half million a year three million a year
00:39:02
whatever it's enough to support one two three people working on it but previously you know you going to the
00:39:08
Venture Community like oh what did it take a modern app company Sachs to kind of build an Android and a an IOS app
00:39:17
just you know five 10 years ago if we were funding one 10 years ago what would the footprint look like for you know a
00:39:24
consumer app company if you're going to go all the way back to like the late 90s
00:39:29
during theom era I remember that with PayPal just to launch really what was an MVP we had I'd say a dozen developers
00:39:38
and it was pretty expensive and we had to set up our own Colo there was all this infrastructure that all got
00:39:44
distracted away with AWS then you moved to the mobile er uh and the app stores provide there there's just a lot more
00:39:52
developer tools lot more apis yeah well as well as distribution but it's just it's far easier to code these apps so
00:39:58
definitely things have gotten easier and easier that's the trend if that's the point you're trying to make it's
00:40:03
certainly never been easier to get started in creating something if you're a solo developer yeah that being said I
00:40:10
think that depending on what you're trying to do it's still usually the case that if you're trying to do something
00:40:17
interesting and profound you're going to need a small team of developers and a couple million bucks to get you started
00:40:24
yeah it used to be rul of themb I think 12 people for an app company you got two
00:40:28
or three working on each platform a couple designers couple of testing and uh design ux yeah you get to
00:40:35
10 12 people to to run a modern one all right everybody next issue the house just passed a bill that would either ban
00:40:44
Tik Tok or force a sale talked about this bill being proposed last week and things had moved really slowly on the
00:40:51
Tik Tock band now they're moving really fast on Wednesday the house passed the bill with a bipartisan vote of 350 2 to
00:40:58
65 making this one of the few subjects that members of Congress can agree on Biden has also signaled his intent to
00:41:05
sign the bill into law should it pass the Senate passing the Senate that could be an obstacle Democratic Majority
00:41:10
Leader Chuck Schumer has signaled a lack of interest in the subject instead he'll
00:41:14
review the bill with committee chairs before deciding on the path forward Arguments for and against the bill have
00:41:19
centered around a few main points reciprocity we talked about that here you can't use Instagram X or any of our
00:41:26
domestic social networks in China and if they won't allow us in their country why
00:41:31
should we give them unrestricted access to ours stifling debate progressives fear this isn't really about National
00:41:37
Security uh their position is mainstream politicians are hoping to shut down political discourse particularly among
00:41:45
the youth who are mostly on Tik Tok particularly Pro Palestinian and anti-israel discourse which seems to
00:41:52
flourish on Tik Tok versus other platforms coincidentally Joe Biden launched a Tik
00:41:58
Tok account last month and his comments were instantly flooded with Pro Palestinian remarks some calling him
00:42:05
genocide Joe third argument overreach some sax I think you've pointed out that the
00:42:12
language in this law is a bit vague it needs to be tightened up maybe uh the president could go after companies
00:42:19
supposedly aligned with foreign interest who aren't our esteemed Patriot and friend Keith raboy argued with you saxs
00:42:26
on this on X and then there are guys like Trump and VC who I believe are flip-flopping based on securing bags VC
00:42:33
called ticktock digital Fentanyl and Trump issued an executive order calling for bik dance to divest Tik Tock in 2020
00:42:41
now they're both opposing the ban and interestingly both Trump and VC have ties to the Republican megad Dona
00:42:49
Jeffrey Yas who is a major shareholder in bite dance with a reported 15 to30 billion do stake he gave VC 5 million
00:42:59
bucks who knows what Trump's gotten but they said they're back in love Sach you had this big back and forth with Keith
00:43:06
raboy on X are you in support of the divestiture or not I haven't been able to track exactly where you're at at
00:43:15
this well I think my take on this and I'm GNA have to revise and extend my remarks from last week cuz I didn't know
00:43:21
as much about the bill I hadn't actually read the language yet and now I have and
00:43:26
my take on this is that the bill poses a significant risk of being Patriot Act 2.0 so in
00:43:33
other words you know a threat to the security of the United States is basically hyped up some part of it may
00:43:40
be real some of it may be threat inflation and then we give the intelligence community and the
00:43:45
government new powers which can then be abused and that's exactly what happened with the Patriot Act they ended up
00:43:51
spying on Americans now what is the potential abuse here this is a thing that I've debated with Keith and there's
00:43:59
also other people who I respect a lot and Keith by the way is a very talented lawyer in addition to other things being
00:44:05
a successful founder and investor an investor and then you know I saw that sear and and Jetty whose show I was just
00:44:14
on thinks that the bill is just fine so look there are people very legit people who disagree with me about this but I
00:44:21
went last night and I read this bill like four times to try and like parse the language and I've just come away
00:44:27
concluding there's no the way I see it there's no way to argue that this language isn't vague and could invite
00:44:35
abuse and you really have to dig into it but let me just kind of walk you through
00:44:40
I think a key part of it so first of all this bill doesn't just ban or Force the
00:44:47
destor of Tik Tok it goes after what it calls foreign adversary controlled applications now what is a foreign
00:44:55
adversary there there are four countries that are defined as foreign adversaries
00:45:00
it's basically Russia China Iran and North Korea I'm not super worried about that list of foreign adversaries growing
00:45:08
because that does take a bunch of procedural Hoops to go through it what I am concerned about is when the bill
00:45:15
talks about what makes a company controlled by a foreign adversary and if you go to that language
00:45:23
which is then definition so you know what frequently happens with these bill is a lot of the meat is actually in the
00:45:28
definitions you have to look at this very carefully it says here the term control by a foreign adversary means
00:45:34
with respect to a covered company that such company or entity is and then there's three categories the first
00:45:39
category is a foreign person which can also mean a foreign corporation that's domiciled in or is headquartered or has
00:45:46
his principal place of business or is organized under the law of foreign adversary country so that would be like
00:45:51
bite dance okay bite dance is a Chinese company okay then it says or it can be an entity where 20% of the ownership
00:46:00
group is in that foreign person category so that would be like you let's say you
00:46:05
had a US company but 20% of the company was owned by I don't know Chinese VCS or
00:46:12
by bite dance okay that would also be a controlled by a foreign adversary then you get to the provision that I think is
00:46:20
the most problematic which is it's a person subject to the direction or control of of a foreign person or entity
00:46:28
the novel language here is where it says subject to the direction of okay it's not just saying under the control of
00:46:36
it's saying subject to the direction of in my view that's very vague and a creative prosecutor a creative attorney
00:46:45
general could try to say well wait a second if Elon has a major uh Tesla Factory in Shanghai is he subject to the
00:46:55
direction of the Chinese Communist party because they could influence him they could leverage him if Donald Trump is
00:47:03
Accused on virtually a daily basis of being a Russian asset is he subject to the direction of Vladimir Putin David
00:47:11
from just tweeted very recently that he said not only Trump but the entire Republican party that works for Trump is
00:47:18
under the direction of Russ partisan hack though like that's not like actual factual in a court right so this would
00:47:25
have to be proven factual in a for it okay do you think or no well the AG could open an
00:47:32
investigation based on the theory that for example Trump owns true social and Trump is under the direction of a
00:47:40
foreign adversary I.E Putin because the mainstream media continues to normalize this idea and spread this idea on
00:47:47
virtually a daily basis so the point is that look first the AG would open an investigation you think about the
00:47:54
sledgehammer type of remedy here that an Elon or a trump or a uh you take Rumble
00:48:03
for example which is also accused of being a Russian agent they could be forced to devest the company or to to
00:48:10
have it be banned so it gives huge I think new powers to the executive branch to pursue political opponents and
00:48:19
political enemies whether they actually win in a court of law down the road is kind of secondary because they can Vex
00:48:27
and harass their political enemies using this power so my point is that at a minimum I think this language needs to
00:48:33
get cleaned up I think it is way too vague and you still have the issue of whether it's a good idea or not to force
00:48:42
the Banning or divesture of Tik Tok but this bill goes Way Beyond it again it creates this novel category of foreign
00:48:50
adversary controlled applications which also like I said includes websites and that means not just foreign compan
00:48:57
but domestic companies as well that are said to be under the direction of a foreign actor so again I I don't know
00:49:04
how anyone can look at this language and not say it's too vague yeah it's easy enough tighten it up and if it was
00:49:10
tightened up you'd be in favor of the Tik Tok man I take it sax or divesture I should say keep I keep saying ban You'
00:49:16
still want the Chinese government to not have control of this or or bite dance yeah I still have very mixed feelings
00:49:22
about the idea of just the the Tik Tok band because look you're talking about an app that 100 million Americans
00:49:30
use for something like 90 minutes a day so people obviously get a lot of value out of this I've yet to see the the hard
00:49:38
proof that this app is under the control of the CCP I mean I know that allegation
00:49:43
is made I can understand why on journalists already yeah but uh it's it's very unclear to me that they have
00:49:51
the goods on that and I do think that depriving Americans of the right to use the app that they clearly enjoy and love
00:50:00
based on a threat that has yet to be proven that makes me I'm deeply ambivalent about that shth if we were to
00:50:07
look at say media channels newspapers there's been rules about foreign ownership of those do you believe Tik
00:50:15
Tok kind of falls into that as sack said Americans are enjoying this in a massive
00:50:20
way 100 million plus 90 minutes a day and the statistics are crazy that actually I think argues for you know not
00:50:27
having a foreign adversary own this or have access to it we wouldn't allow them to own
00:50:31
CNN Fox New York Times Washington Post Etc we have rules against that already so are you in favor of this Tik Tock
00:50:39
divesture yes or no yeah okay you have it uh freeberg uh would love to have you hold on I'd like
00:50:49
to hear I'd like to hear him expand on that um I'll I'll tell you before I tell you why I'll tell you a quick story
00:50:57
two or three months ago after Joker was sick we started to make his own dog food
00:51:02
right so to have like a super bland diet and we had the service that was sending
00:51:07
us food and we got rid of it and we would just make it ourselves and part of the
00:51:13
meal was like some raw apples and carrots that I that I would cut up and I would always complain to that I'm like I
00:51:20
hate peeling these apples or whatever slicing them and taking the core out just just said that for the next month
00:51:29
and a half all I got was Apple coring utensils on Tik Tok and she was like oh you know we should get rid of XYZ food
00:51:37
service and she would just get plastered with these ads and it was just a reminder to me that these apps are
00:51:44
constantly listening now that's a benign example but my phone is on my desk when
00:51:49
I'm talking about some really important stuff again important related to me both
00:51:54
personal and professional there's lots of money on the line there's moments where for certain parts of my business
00:52:02
like with crypto we have like 19 layers of people that have to you have passwords upon passwords upon passwords
00:52:09
to do stuff the phone is always there it was just a reminder to me so I deleted Tik Tok it's gone which sucks
00:52:17
because I would relax with that app at night like you know I would have 15 20 minutes where I would de impressed it's
00:52:24
super fun it's a great app I have to be honest with you I love it but as a consumer that was the decision I made as
00:52:33
a business person what I'll say is it is inconceivable to me that our voice signatures aren't being mapped and
00:52:46
there isn't a massive sort of file and repository that is understanding what we're all saying and it's then further
00:52:55
inconceivable to me that there isn't a service that's in identifying that this is probably
00:53:00
davidaks and this is Cham and this is freeberg and we're not really all that important but let's take a better
00:53:07
example this is Elon Musk this is the president of the United States this is or the waiter that works for the
00:53:13
president who has his phone in his pocket while he's sitting inside the you know the the the residences of the white
00:53:20
house so I think it's happening I think they're not the only one though I think there's America companies that are doing
00:53:27
it too and so I think that we need to start somewhere until we can have our apps in
00:53:35
a market they shouldn't have their apps here and I think that should be the end of it completely reasonable I think I'm
00:53:43
going to disagree I think a couple points I don't believe in the notion of like Reciprocity for reciprocity sake
00:53:53
China blocks access to us content does that mean that the US government should block access to International content I
00:53:59
think the answer is no because this country is different than China we have afforded ourselves freedoms and
00:54:06
Liberties that don't exist in other countries Freedom of Choice freedom of speech freedom of the press and so on so
00:54:13
I don't think that the government should be restricting access to content because
00:54:17
another country restricts access to our content I think that we should make decisions based on what's right for the
00:54:23
citizens what's right for the country what's right for National Security what about spying apps so that's a that's
00:54:28
that's my my next point so I do think that if there is a case to be made that there is spying or data acquisition
00:54:34
that's going on through these apps we're not talking about rice noodles over here
00:54:38
you know we're talking about spy so I think if if that's true then I would imagine that there are multiple paths to
00:54:45
alleviate that like move all the servers to the US and separate the entity force
00:54:49
a sale you know like I I think I I don't think that it's necessarily appropriate
00:54:54
to say that there aren't other coures or other options available to try and prohibit what should generally be
00:55:01
prohibited which is spying on American citizens and capturing data that people you know haven't opted into being
00:55:09
captured I do believe that citizens and people should have the right to decide if they want to have their data used to
00:55:15
be able to access an app I actually am not a big believer that we should be paternalistic in the government sense
00:55:20
and saying having the government come in and say Here's an app and we have determined that that it is not good for
00:55:27
you because this data is being used in a manipulative way against you I think that citizens should be afforded
00:55:32
transparency and make a decision about whether or not they want to participate I don't think I don't think citizens
00:55:37
have the sophistication to understand what foreign adversaries again we only have four so they were named there for a
00:55:43
reason are doing with our data and I don't think that they should have to be forced to choose I
00:55:49
think that you know this is not dissimilar to how the FDA says you're not qualified to decide whether this
00:55:54
drug is good we will tell you and people are okay with that because you are saying this is part of the government
00:56:00
infrastructure that's full of experts who know the totality of a subject and so the problem is in order for anybody
00:56:06
to make a reasonable decision you'd have to share so much as to just completely blow up a bunch of National Security
00:56:12
which is not going to happen well look I think we can have audit rights and we can have rights that protect our
00:56:16
citizens I think that that's appropriate I I I'll also say my my final point on this I think that whether it's
00:56:22
intentional or not this sort of action leads to inevitable cronyism and Regulatory capture who does this benefit
00:56:30
if Tik Tok gets banned in the US it's going to benefit meta it's going to benefit Instagram it's going to benefit
00:56:35
a few other you know social n it's going to benefit Elon at Twitter there's a few
00:56:39
folks that are going to benefit pretty significantly if Tik Tok is banned because all those users are going to
00:56:44
migrate I will also say by the way that many thousands of people make their living on Tik Tok like it or not it's a
00:56:50
big income stream for a lot of people in the US and a really important part of their livelihood and just to be clear
00:56:54
here this is not about Banning Tik Tok this is about divesture then if it's not divested then it gets banned so if you
00:57:02
just think from first principles here why wouldn't they divest it why would CP keep this the reason is this is a
00:57:11
incredibly powerful tool under no circumstances would the Chinese government ever allow us to have this
00:57:18
kind of reach into their populace and if you want to judge a person you can just
00:57:21
look at their behavior citizens in China live either in a complete police state where everything they do is tracked
00:57:29
every transaction facial recognition every step they take every purchase they make is tracked or you're in a literal
00:57:36
concentration camp that's how the people of China live today we are their adversary they have noted that we're
00:57:44
their adversary under what circumstance would you think they would treat us any differently than they treat their own
00:57:50
citizens it is absolutely insane that anybody would take the side of the CCP on this you are asking them to divest
00:57:58
you're not asking them to shut it down that is a partisan sort of angle on this and there's a lot of partisanship going
00:58:06
on on the edges on this but what we have to realize is they would never allow us
00:58:10
to do this to their citizens and how they treat their citizens is obvious as an example we've tried you know we tried
00:58:16
to export sugar via McDonald's and Coke and actually they have domestic brands that they were able to support and prop
00:58:23
up so they have more control of that too so even even even our Downstream attempts to actually send products that
00:58:29
theoretically over long periods of time aren't necessarily beneficial they've act they're smart enough to actually
00:58:34
blunt yeah and they don't let their kids play video games or use Tik Tok well even video games they saw video games
00:58:40
are bad it's not like they're like oh Activision come on in the doors are open they're like you can use it an hour no I
00:58:45
think it's like three hours a week and certain kids and on the weekends and certain kids are totally ban they have
00:58:51
an ability to make strategic decisions that benefit their population and I think that we
00:58:56
have never attempted to I'm not saying that this law is going to be great but you'd have to be extremely naive to
00:59:03
assume that there is nothing bad going on here with this app it doesn't mean that there's nothing bad going on with
00:59:09
all the other apps I am assuming that all these apps have foreign actors that have infiltrated them I think that's the
00:59:15
right posture to have I don't have Instagram on my phone I don't have Facebook on my phone I don't have Tik
00:59:21
Tok anymore on my phone the only thing that's left is X and at some point if those apps can
00:59:29
prove that there's a chain of custody so for example you know one thing that I thought of you could do is you could put
00:59:35
some kind of like itar regulations around this so that only US citizens could work on these apps any app that is
00:59:42
ambiently observing you I think the overwhelming majority of people there's it's very benign implications but the
00:59:50
whole point is that if you have 300 million people that are being observed you're going to get also the the a
00:59:57
thousand or 10,000 that are super important and you're going to catch stuff that you're not allowed to
01:00:03
know already doing this pull up the article Nick Tik Tok has already admitted to and been caught with their
01:00:11
hand in the cookie jar spying on journalists we know that they're doing this already and we know their track
01:00:17
record for spying on their own people this is the no-brainer of no-brainer decisions just divest and if they won't
01:00:24
divest it tells you every you need to know this is super valuable to them and that algorithm is so valuable that they
01:00:31
know they can program the US citizen I think the other problem is I'm not sure that the people with the technical
01:00:38
sophistication will have the time to then actually go and audit the codebase to really know that there aren't any
01:00:44
Easter eggs in here and there aren't real back doors and they won't let us this is my point I think divesture
01:00:50
should not be allowed I actually just think unfortunately this app should just be shut down and the people will migrate
01:00:55
to Instagram and the people will migrate to YouTube and new prodcts and or new products and the thing there is that at
01:01:02
least these are American controlled and are there data leaks happening in those apps probably but it's at least not so
01:01:10
brazenly obvious Sach your thoughts I'm a little confused here are you guys saying that the Chinese government uses
01:01:17
Tik Tok to spy on its own population or they ban it because they think it's harmful no they ban Tik Tock bear
01:01:23
because it's harmful no they have complete control over Tik Tok yes and they control that in their country they
01:01:29
use camera sacks and you know this full well on every single corner with facial recognition and every one of their
01:01:36
phones is tracked you know this full well saxs they are spying Tik Tok or not no they have banned Tik Tok they have a
01:01:43
different version called they a different version yeah and in that version and they push ma dian's
01:01:50
algorithms are very different they push educational content there's so basically
01:01:54
like on the on the bike dance board what happened with this whole thing is the the CEO and the founder had to step down
01:02:02
effectively right they brought in effectively new management and in that the CCP H is a board a board director
01:02:10
and has what's called the Golden vote so they effectively decide and so what you
01:02:14
saw were the algorithms morph over time from pure entertainment to things that pushed a lot of educational content they
01:02:22
also then imposed broadly speaking Li on content that they didn't like they would
01:02:28
only allow in other apps experiences where they also have a board seat now and a golden vote as Jason said games
01:02:36
can only be played in certain apps for certain amounts of time so they've made their own decisions about what's good
01:02:42
for their own population the flavor of the app that's here my my biggest point is that again you have to pick the
01:02:49
Lesser evil I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that all these apps are infiltrated
01:02:56
but this one is more Brazen because it is really the only one that's completely and obviously foreign
01:03:02
control and I don't think that if you tried to divest it you will get any assurance that that
01:03:09
code is reliable and so you'd have to build the whole thing from scratch all over again for what it's worth the
01:03:13
company has said that they're willing to move all of their hosting in the US to Oracle data centers in the US David you
01:03:22
and I know what that means like could you imagine a migration like that who is going to look at every single endpoint
01:03:28
every single line of code that is a joke that's meant to elay people who are non-technical right y 100% I kind of
01:03:34
agree with that all right seems like we're I don't know if we're 2v2 here but look are you Bann or not Bann sax with
01:03:41
the language is corrected are you ban or divest or what I'm ambivalent about it because I'm open to the idea wow of
01:03:48
banning a foreign app in this way but the reason why I'm a little bit ambivalent about it is because a I think
01:03:58
that what they're doing has to be proven as opposed to just a bunch of hand waving over it and when you start
01:04:04
talking about what's happening to the Wagers and concentration camps and spying that has nothing to do with this
01:04:09
particular app and in fact you've revealed this app doesn't even function in China I think there just a lot of
01:04:14
hand waving going on not a lot lot of hard proof and I don't think that one little story in the New York Times I
01:04:21
would consider hard proof I agree with saxs yeah so that's number one is I'm open to to this idea but I want to see
01:04:26
hard proof number two is I don't think you're going to get it I think the NSA and the CIA will read in the the
01:04:33
intelligence committee and there's a subcommittee that's probably been read in but I can guarantee you the American
01:04:38
public will not get rid in on what and Mansion said on CNBC today by the way that you know he has based on his
01:04:45
information he believes strongly that they should divest whether it's to his group or another group but these guys
01:04:50
have lied so many times about so many things I mean I just think the public has a right to know look if 100 million
01:04:56
Americans are going to be deprived of using an app they love why can't we get a little bit more information exactly
01:05:01
what that app has done wrong they're saying it they're saying it's in control it's it's being controlled by a foreign
01:05:07
adversary they are saying it the the bill says it what is debatable they're telling you
01:05:12
all that means all that means is that the app is owned by bite dance which is here's what's unique about this bill
01:05:19
Incorporated here's what here's what's unique about this bill it got out of committee 50 to zero
01:05:26
it was overwhelmingly approved by both sides of the house and it looks like in the Senate there may be some refinements
01:05:32
that happen but it's going to get largely overwhelmingly approved there as well it's Patriot Act hold on it's a
01:05:38
very unique moment in time where you see in today's political landscape such uniformity and again I'm
01:05:48
not going to go and defend these folks but except to say that where there's smoke there's
01:05:54
probably fire and I think that in this specific narrow case again we're not talking about food stuffs or Lumber
01:06:01
right we're talking about a technological application that is observing a lot of people on a
01:06:06
continuous 24x7 basis I suspect this this law would not have gotten out of committee 50 to zero had they not been
01:06:14
read in by the NSA and the CIA and that will never see the light of day because we will never be disclosed that
01:06:21
information okay so it could have been 49 to1 David you know what I mean another
01:06:28
ideological I could see it being 40 to 10 if it's ideological I could be seeing it 35 to 15 48-2 it was 50 to zero so
01:06:37
was the Patriot Act look there's an old saying in Washington that the worst ideas are bipartisan these guys were all
01:06:43
being stampeded into this act they brought it up and passed it with hardly any debate I've already shown you how
01:06:50
the language of the bill is overly broad it's not just a Tik Tock ban it says that any app or website did you know
01:06:58
that any app or website domestically that's subject subject to the direction of a foreigner from one of these count
01:07:07
countes four countries North Korea Russia China IR I said a foreigner from one of those countries yeah I'm trying
01:07:12
to make clear for the audience all you got to do is make that argument if you're an AG who wants to go after one
01:07:18
of our domestic platforms that's all you got to do to bring them under your thumb
01:07:21
what would be the proper route if a US platform was in fact compromised by the Chinese North Koreans or Iran what would
01:07:31
be the proper path in your mind wouldn't that concern you if an app is sharing us
01:07:36
data in a way that it shouldn't then why wouldn't it just be prosecuted this is saying right the AGS
01:07:42
would go no it's not it's not it's not even it's Banning Tik Tok okay subject to maybe divesture happens but there's a
01:07:48
lot of people who think that the six months they're giving for this is just not going to work and the Chinese
01:07:52
government may not go for the idea of allowing Tik Tok to be bought by an American company because they may not
01:07:58
like the prent that creates so again I think you're answering your own question I think you're making a very important
01:08:04
and good point which is there's so much body of business law here and there's so
01:08:09
many state AGS who would want to make their bones and you see the state AGS trying to build their credibility going
01:08:16
after Facebook for sexual exploitation and all of this stuff there to your point David there is such a body of
01:08:23
lawsuits and law and precedent that Tik Tok could have been proseed under it's very odd and rare that
01:08:30
there's been a complete dant where this thing came on from up above and everybody just got on board and all I'm
01:08:36
saying is in these very rare and unique instances where somebody sheld their own
01:08:42
personal political aspirations probably opposite that we don't know my alarm Bells go off when DC
01:08:50
acts with this kind of unanimity because the only time they ever do that when they become a unip part
01:08:56
is when the National Security State wants some new power I agree with you this how we got into the almost
01:09:02
unanimous this is how we got into the Patriot Act saying it's right I'm not saying every dumb idea that gives the
01:09:08
federal government more power ends up being almost unanimous in you're absolutely right and I'm agreeing
01:09:15
with you they were read in at a national security level that got them to become a
01:09:19
unip party on this topic we are never going to get and I'm just you know responding to freeberg we are never
01:09:24
going to get read in we the people because of this like phony concern about they always like classification when
01:09:31
they don't want the public to know something now by the way important shouldn't be secret give us the proof
01:09:36
why can't they give us the proof I don't think it needs to be proof it's the potential damage here that they're
01:09:40
saying is the problem Sachs they could wake up this algorithm at any point in time and they could steer people's
01:09:47
thinking they have already steered it your party has talked incessantly about how Tik Tock has steered cultural issues
01:09:56
in a certain direction thus Libs of tick tock all this kind of stuff there is ample evidence that these social
01:10:04
networks and these videos do influence young people so if young people are addicted to this which they clearly are
01:10:10
and if young people are influenced by this which they clearly are those are just facts that are indisputable the
01:10:16
Chinese could wake this up at any time and steer political issues Left Right Center cause chaos it is the potential
01:10:23
harm here Sachs that is is the concern it's not just that they're doing it now it's that they could do it in the future
01:10:31
and if you were to take this and you were to put let's say this was North Korea or Iran would your would you allow
01:10:37
North Korea or Iran to own this app in the United States of course he wouldn't I think my my point would be the same
01:10:44
which is I want to see some proof hold on let me make a couple of points number one I want to see some proof that this
01:10:50
is actually spyware that to me has been alleged and if it's as such a SL on cases you say why is there no proof of
01:10:58
this so that's Point number one and and by the way if if the phone is just sitting there passively listening to you
01:11:04
and that's the spyware Apple should really address that because app shouldn't be able to do that right so
01:11:10
that's like Apple's problem with respect to the data supposedly being leaked to the Communist party again I want to see
01:11:18
what data are we talking about like like what Tik Tok videos I like what what's important about that data there are
01:11:26
bundles of data that are available on the open market that they can buy about users I don't think that's what it is
01:11:32
these these microphones are on 247 these apps are allowed to passively listen in
01:11:37
the background then why don't we just tell Apple not to allow that I think that that could be a partial solve too
01:11:43
well what about Android your phone should not be passively listening to you you should have to like stick it in your
01:11:46
face and talk to it if you want to activate the micr the the problem is when you download these apps you create
01:11:52
these settings and so you try to you have to try to convince a 100 million people that hey you shouldn't do that
01:11:58
maybe you should only do it when you use the app in a specific way and it kills the usability and so people get lazy and
01:12:04
they're like ah default on look what what I'm saying here is that the way the microphone should
01:12:09
work on Apple products is that I think it that yeah it should I think it does work that way I I don't know if that the
01:12:18
listening in like the key issue here well I mean who knows what's possible in terms of hacking and spyware
01:12:25
you know those are all you know unknowns so okay so so one by one we're kind of knocking knocking out all these issues
01:12:33
it's not passively listening the data that it's collecting doesn't does seem that important with respect to steering
01:12:40
I agree I guess that's a theoretical problem but you could say that about any of these apps and you're on a slippery
01:12:46
slope to basically a First Amendment problem because they're not letting users get the content that they actually
01:12:52
want all right I guess we disag and then and then look and then one final point about the reciprocity argument is if you
01:13:00
want to make this about reciprocity then put it in a trade bill that's where you deal with
01:13:06
reciprocity is you say okay these products from China get to to play in US markets our products from the United
01:13:13
States get to play in Chinese markets you do it through a trade bill this is not a trade bill this gives a new power
01:13:18
to the government to Define foreign adversary controlled applications and websites free just want to give you a
01:13:24
chance to answer the two questions are you in favor of divestiture if it was Iran who owned the app would you feel
01:13:31
differently I don't know about divestiture until to Sax's point I just I I haven't heard a clear point of view
01:13:41
or clear like piece of information about what this app uniquely does that other apps don't do that creates a threat I
01:13:50
it's just not clear to me so in general I'm not in fan of like forcing companies
01:13:55
to divest and forcing things to be shut down and taking away human consumer choice I just don't think those are good
01:14:01
things generally okay and I'm not to sa this point I'm just not compelled that there's something here based on what
01:14:07
I've seen and then like if Iran owned Tik Tok I don't care who owns it based on my prior statement I I think people
01:14:13
should have choice to use what they want to use provided that there is no spying
01:14:18
if there's spying I want to know that there're spying and how it's happening we need to technically fix that if
01:14:22
someone can passively turn on a microphone on an app and listen to people in a room pretty smart scientists
01:14:29
we've proven that it's possible they can also we should fix also that's a bigger
01:14:33
problem then you need to shut down all the iPhones we have there's an Israeli software company we all know what it's
01:14:38
called we all can go and license a software from them okay they they will help you do this so I'm sorry patch but
01:14:46
that's not Apple needs to patch it that's exactly right that's problem I don't want a domestic app to be able to do
01:14:53
that to me yeah exactly it is happening and it hasn't been fixed and it's not that it hasn't been fixed the point is
01:15:00
when you have a large technical surface area you guys know this there are bugs all the time like we deal with for
01:15:06
example threat factors all the time into like Microsoft has dealt with these for
01:15:11
50 years right every new update of Windows every little thing has all these little back doors and little threads
01:15:17
that weren't cleaned up properly so this is an ongoing whack-a-mole problem and the reality is that a very small
01:15:23
technical team has and always been able to stay a few steps ahead of apple and many of these apps and all I'm saying is
01:15:32
you should just not be so naive as to assume that this apple is something that that this is something Apple can fix I
01:15:38
think that a small talented team of hackers whoever they work for will always be able to find these back doors
01:15:44
in every single new release of every single operating system and they will be a few steps ahead so but then we're
01:15:50
screwed anyway because all the data is already out there so I think the point is so knowing that if you want to maybe
01:15:57
minimize the surface area of how bad this data leaks to just the foreign actors that have infiltrated our
01:16:03
American companies you can ban Tik Tok okay if you want to just open the door to it keep it around look I I like I
01:16:11
said at the beginning I'm ambivalent about this because if you can prove to me that there's really a national
01:16:15
security threat and that your remedy for dealing with it is narrowly tailored then I'm potentially on board with this
01:16:21
but I don't believe the threat has been proven and I certainly don't think the remedy is narrowly tailored in fact it's
01:16:27
expansive and it's going to lead to weaponization and I don't trust the government to Define new new uh
01:16:33
categories of foreign controlled applications and websites I think you're probably right which is the unfortunate
01:16:39
part but I I do think that there's enough of these folks that have been read into something that we're not being
01:16:45
told and I have zero faith in that yeah I'm not I'm not going to say that it's accurate or not but I'm saying I suspect
01:16:54
that some body of work from a three-letter agency has made its way to enough of these people under
01:17:02
confidentiality where they've all agreed the National Security state has a secret
01:17:07
reason for wanting to expand his powers that this doesn't fill me with any confidence again Patriot Act 2.0 that's
01:17:14
where I started with this I don't think this is the Patriot Act because the Patriot Act was like I'm gonna have now
01:17:18
a broad license to probe anything I want this is about saying this thing that is
01:17:23
here can no longer be here so but it's not focused on Tik Tok it's focused on again first foreign controll
01:17:32
applications which includes websites the the Patriot Act was about the government
01:17:36
being able to go proactively wherever they wanted when they weren't allowed that is not what this bill says this
01:17:43
bill is more reactive and saying uh okay you out out of the sandbox and all I'm saying is you're right that that could
01:17:50
be abused but that's very different than the Patriot Act which was very AGG aggressive all right so there you have
01:17:58
it folks uh two people looks like agree with the divesture two people have a difference of opinion let's no I don't
01:18:06
agree with the divest I I think it should be shut down okay shut down yeah so shut down divesture looks like lots
01:18:11
of opinions that's good lots of opinions that's good okay I think we just had more debate over this than the entire US
01:18:16
Congress did perhaps I mean I think that's why people listen to this program is because we're literally getting into
01:18:22
the absolute finest details and asking really probing questions saxs that you love 100 million people are soon gon to
01:18:29
be asking when Tik Tok gets shut down 100 million people who used it every day are going to be like why did this happen
01:18:35
I'm gonna say something about that one of my kids and I'm not going to say who it is we recently had them tested for
01:18:42
ADHD they weren't doing particularly great in school the response by some of the folks in the school was oh there's
01:18:51
meds for that we're like no meds and what we did was we took away their iPad and we completely deprived them of
01:19:02
all these apps and video games I cannot describe to you the magnitude of the turnaround in this
01:19:10
kit grades incredible where they were getting 60% and 70% now getting 90% totally engaged interesting Charming
01:19:23
kid that had lost a little bit and I think that there was a little bit of a Daz and I just want to say that in
01:19:30
general as a parent whether the app is banned or not who cares my lived experience right now is that video games
01:19:38
and these apps are horrible for kids this is a known fact actually jamat I looked into this as well it turns
01:19:47
out students who used iPads and digital media many times a day they show the exact signs of ADHD in attention and
01:19:55
Hyper activity and impulsivity so whether you think ADHD is a real diagnosis or not it's inducing those
01:20:03
symptoms I'm willing to say that my child probably had a very light form of it maybe it was exacerbated by these
01:20:09
video games and the iPad and these apps and you know they were getting all the Tik Tok content but they were getting it
01:20:17
on YouTube alerts all this anyways went to zero not like you can have a little bit
01:20:24
here or there zero and the transformation in this last month and a half two months has been incredible I
01:20:30
don't know if other parents are dealing with this but what I'll tell you is the's apps are not good so this whole
01:20:35
consumer Choice thing I think my view is a little tainted because I get agitated
01:20:39
as a responsible parent I'm like just get this app out of here and I already know that I'm addicted to it and it's
01:20:44
not good for me I have no idea what it's doing to my my kids and I just don't want to deal with it if you um if you
01:20:51
look at the correlation between all of these symptoms showing growing up in kids it's basically the introduction of
01:20:56
the iPhone and so people are kind of reaching consensus that the iPhone and distraction ADHD spiking depression all
01:21:05
this stuff anxiety and kids is correlating with too much screen time you can do your own research folks um
01:21:10
maybe it correlates with prescription of ssris maybe it with um schools going totally woke
01:21:20
and bananas I cor a lot of things Co coely exacerbated it when you look at the the
01:21:27
trend lines for sure and the ssris and those kind of things being prescribed is probably as a result
01:21:37
of these ADHD symptoms coming from screen time and then it's probably unnecessary I think people just got a
01:21:42
lot more um prescription happy like they're just definitely that over prescription they're willing to put kids
01:21:48
on drugs for I mean you talk about ADHD for young boys that's kind of like just normal behavior
01:21:55
yeah no absolutely like kids running around outside and having energy if I had to pick an age I would say 16 17 18
01:22:01
years old for social media and for phones I would say 15 or 16 you know with a very controlled phone so that's
01:22:08
that's just one person's opinion all right Florida is on the verge of banning lab grown meat freberg can you tee this
01:22:14
up for us yeah so Florida's been debating a bill in their state legislature since
01:22:20
November and it just passed the house and the Senate a vote of 86 627 in the house 2820 in the Senate to prohibit the
01:22:28
manufacturing sale holding or distribution of cultivated meat and it basically makes the sale or ownership of
01:22:35
cultivated meat a second-degree misdemeanor this is lab grown meat and this bill is now on desantis's desk for
01:22:45
signing you know I'll kind of highlight a little bit of the motivation and and and some of the technical background and
01:22:50
my point of view on it if that's okay do do you see him eating the meat while you're talking about did you see him
01:22:56
eating the me I'm paying attention unlike you guys he's got this like Flintstone size ham hog we listen goad
01:23:04
it feels like a like a non-issue to folks who eat meat and don't care but I just want to point out how much this is
01:23:10
generally a challenge to enabling choice in new Innovative technology which you know we've seen
01:23:17
attempts at this in the past but what is the reason what is the reason to ban lab
01:23:23
grown meat to ban in Florida the motivation is that Florida ranchers felt threatened the guy who just has been
01:23:30
advocating for Banning Tik Tok this whole show is now accusing Florida of being into Banning are you your boy s
01:23:37
loves to I'm the only person on this pod who actually freeberg is too who are skeptical of like does knee-jerk
01:23:44
Banning everything ban everything I would not ban this I didn't say to ban everything where where's that coming
01:23:50
from joke we're joking don't don't label me with your jcal brush that a bad everything I just it's definitely
01:23:59
becoming a minority position to be against government intervention in free decision making and commerce by
01:24:06
individual citizens Florida ranchers felt that their livelihood was threatened they have a billion dollar
01:24:12
ranching business a year in Florida good for them they should go ahead and compete with whatever new technology is
01:24:17
emerging I would say try a little role reversal imagine if you know governments and States tried to ban the use of the
01:24:24
track for fear of putting agricultural workers out of business or you know software
01:24:29
companies that did accounting software got banned because it could put accountants out of business or electric
01:24:35
car production and use got banned because it could put traditional Automotive manufacturers out of business
01:24:40
you could go down the list and you could create this position on nearly any new or emerging technology that feels
01:24:45
threatening to an incumbent industry and ultimately it really only yields to regulatory capture and to a lack of
01:24:53
choice and oper opportunity for new innovation and for consumers to make decisions about what they want and the
01:24:58
irony here is that so much of what's being consumed in the market space Today part of their their their
01:25:04
rationalization is oh well it's new technology we don't know if it's good for you we don't know if it's going to
01:25:08
work the truth is there are federal regulatory bodies that have oversight on the sort of thing 20 years ago almost
01:25:14
all the cheese that we ate in the United States was made from renet renit is an enzyme that converts the protein and
01:25:20
milk into cheese we got renit from the stomach of cat we would scrape it out and sell rent it and it would be used to
01:25:27
make cheese then Rec combinant engineering where we could put we could get bacteria or Yeast cells to make
01:25:34
proteins this technology unlocked the opportunity to make renit more affordably so rather than go and
01:25:40
Slaughter calvs and get the ren out of their stomach we engineer the bacteria or the yeast cell to make the exact same
01:25:45
protein and that is now the entirety of the ren industry is recombinantly produced renit and the entirety of
01:25:52
cheese that we all consume is made using this genetically modified yeast that makes this enzyme that converts milk
01:25:58
into cheese the same is true across other Industries we used to use animal fat for laundry detergent turned out it
01:26:04
was a lot cheaper to make enzymes using the same process I just described instead of making animal fat and now all
01:26:09
of our laundry detergent is Rec common in enzymes so I think like this notion that um we're going to ban this stuff is
01:26:16
a regulatory capture incumbency moment it's totally wrong it denies consumer choice and frankly it flies in the face
01:26:23
of what has historically been a real Economic Opportunity to bring cost down to bring new innovation to Market and to
01:26:29
try and stall that Innovation is going to leave this state or this country in a real kind of challenge compared to other
01:26:35
countries I just think it's wrong I think it's really on this topic you are 100% right you're right this is a dumb
01:26:42
thing to legislate and it is meaningless and unimpactful and people should just decide based on what tastes better is
01:26:51
that's different than a listening device or cheap freeberg is it is the criticism of this that it's
01:26:59
regulatory capture or it's part of like this anti-woke kind of Vibes in Florida there's a conservative movement in
01:27:05
Florida which has taken hold which I think this is key to now in some ways I would argue that
01:27:12
conservative movement has really important sociological points of view in other cases I think it denies necessary
01:27:21
Innovation it denies necessary advancement to move industry forward versus social change and I think the the
01:27:28
the ability to kind of auscap the two that oh you know transgenderism in schools and elementary schools is the
01:27:34
same as the woke leftists from California making you know lab grown meet and they all get kind of jammed
01:27:40
together as one big tribal group and therefore we should ban it all what will likely end up happening here is this
01:27:45
will find its path to Federal preemption historically when we've seen States try to impose these sorts of bans
01:27:53
the companies that are ultimately affected the innovators that are affected go to the federal government
01:27:57
and they try and legislate for a bill that says this stuff is legal and should be broadly available that Federal
01:28:03
preemption then stops State's rights on having a ban in place and so it's very likely that we'll end up seeing some
01:28:09
legislation here over the next couple of years if this technology is ultimately beneficial the problem is now that
01:28:13
Florida's done this I guarantee you're going to see Texas which is a huge ranching State and many other states
01:28:19
step up to do it it creates a really bad precedent for all other disruptive kind
01:28:22
of Industries to be blocked by their local economies that that believe that they're under threat and you know it
01:28:28
just creates like a lot of unnecessary chaos so SX what is desantis's beef with fake
01:28:34
meat I don't know I don't know I don't know what he's gonna do in this case but let me let me State clearly what I think
01:28:41
which is I think it's really terrible when a bunch of incumbents in an industry get together and try to shut
01:28:48
out the Innovative Solution by inventing some unproven threat that they turn into
01:28:53
some sort of about Tik Tok right but exactly but enough about Tik Tok about I see around the corner from that's why I
01:29:00
wanted to talk about this because I think the two are so similar they're not similar at all well they're not sim go
01:29:06
ahead SE no regulatory capture is regulatory capture but this is a far that's just a term of art we're just you
01:29:12
fair enough yeah yeah we disagree on yeah that's fine fair enough I think you guys have to have the intellectual
01:29:16
honesty to say these are different issues one is lab grown meat versus ranchers in America this is typical
01:29:22
corruption and cronyism fine whatever okay oh yeah but you don't think you don't think that the um the other tech
01:29:29
companies that compete with Tik Tok are secretly Banning together to basically Jin up this bill I don't think they're
01:29:36
secet I don't think they're secretly Banning I think that they're being over they're overtly
01:29:40
organizing just like the Ranchers but again that typically still always gets cut on partisan lines and what I'm
01:29:47
saying is this is totally different than lab grown me versus ranchers I just want
01:29:51
to say one thing the intellectual the similarities I think I just want to make a point here I think the
01:29:58
intellectual discourse on this program is second to none I mean we are getting into the most refined details of this
01:30:05
issue and you just don't hear this anywhere else so I just want to give myself and the rest of the crew a patter
01:30:09
in the back you just want to masturbate I yeah I just want to yeah no I mean we really did get in Pretty in the weeds
01:30:16
here jel do you agree that the Florida bill is ridiculous and that it sets a terrible precedent uh I didn't read it
01:30:23
but I would think that that's exactly what there's nothing special about it I can't
01:30:28
imagine why somebody would want to ban mock meat other than crony capitalism of course and my question to you is when is
01:30:36
this going to taste good when are you gonna make this mock me well by the way this film makes no sense because the
01:30:40
only reason they would do it is if they were afraid that the lab grown meat was just so much cheaper and frankly so much
01:30:48
tastier than what they make and freeberg you you've said this many times like we
01:30:52
are so like orders of magnitude away from yeah we're 10 years but but by the way why try and stop it from competing
01:31:00
let the VCS that want to throw money at it throw money at it let the scientists pursue it let the let the thing that's
01:31:06
made America so successful be successful by the way imagine Elon got the Starship
01:31:12
up today you guys saw this thing it went into orbit it was unb incredible imagine
01:31:17
if Boeing and a bunch of Defense contractors got together 10 years ago and said we got to stop SpaceX these
01:31:22
guys are trying to do stuff in an they tried and they tried and they will keep trying and the freedom that we AFF
01:31:30
people and buses in the United States of America is what allows us to have our Unique Edge and our unique ability to
01:31:36
create progress that you don't see anywhere else on planet Earth and this is the sort of sh that takes us
01:31:41
backwards you just said the key word we US America America back to back to the Tik Tok thing that's not an us thing
01:31:47
that's a Chinese thing I get the point I I'm not like I'm not pro CCP but yeah I
01:31:53
get the point anything American God bless us let's go American exceptionalism no I saw the headlines I
01:31:58
think CNBC reported that uh the rocket uh blew up on Entry re-entry they I they didn't say that did
01:32:06
they I saw one headline where they had to put a little neag in the end of the sentence there was Starling Starling
01:32:12
video for like an hour it's nut the video was so Crystal Clear it was like HD of this rocket coming back down to
01:32:19
earth it was Bonkers so congrats to e can I show you guys the most incredible tweet related to this uh I'm just G to
01:32:27
send this to you Nick friendly reminder that Google's annual catering budget is 72 million about twice the cost of sh
01:32:35
I mean it isut today today Elon made the entire human race multiplanetary yeah and it costs half as
01:32:45
much as what Google spends on food that's incredible it does seem like doesn't seem like a lot of money to
01:32:52
spend on food I I it does seem like these Rockets take two or three the new each time there's a new platform it
01:32:58
seems to take Elon exactly like two or three to nail it and here we are again you know you know so congrats to our boy
01:33:05
great job uh this going back full circle the persistence and the resilience that
01:33:09
was needed to get this thing to happen it's just like 20 years of stepbystep iterative nothing about the initial kind
01:33:18
of instantiation or concept of you know what SpaceX needed to walk to get here was right everything had to change along
01:33:25
the way Starling came along etc etc and here he is at the end of this period of time with this incredible craft the
01:33:32
largest object to ever fly in outer space it really is like an incredible moment in human history and it took the
01:33:38
degree of persistence resilience that was I think marks what makes American entrepreneurship so powerful it really
01:33:44
is an incredible day it was an amazing thing to watch I don't know if any of you guys have ever gone watch and watch
01:33:49
any of the old Saturn Launches on YouTube but I think this is a new era it's really Inc I think this was like
01:33:54
five or six years ago I got cleared to basically fly and hug renberg when they were doing
01:34:04
a launch and so I was able to see it as the thing like kind of like tried to approach Max Q it's one of the most
01:34:12
incredible things I've ever done so I think we made some uh progress if you look at the Google News links a lot of
01:34:18
praise for this launch so yeah looks like people are kind of getting it yeah just incredible I mean
01:34:27
this thing is so huge I don't know if you've ever been inside of one of these things but the the Starship yeah I've
01:34:34
been inside I was inside the first one they built it is so large the capacity of this thing is like I think you could
01:34:41
fit like three four 500 human beings inside of it maybe when we do our our Austin poker KN night we can stop over
01:34:47
and see it be really fun Bonkers and when you see it stacked the height is like it almost feels like you're looking
01:34:56
at CGI in real in the real world it is incredibly tall like incredibly tall all right listen this is your favorite
01:35:03
podcast in the world episode 170 of the Allin podcast we never asked for this but if you have a chance we we do the
01:35:10
show on video so if you're listening to audio just type in all-in podcast in YouTube and you can see the four of us I
01:35:16
don't know if that's a bonus feature or not but we do all the graphs and the charts and everything here all right uh
01:35:22
four David saxs the Rainman David freeberg your assulted of science shth potia chairman dictator I am the world's
01:35:35
greatest moderator as David saxs will attest with all those incredibly always go Christopher Walkin whenever you do
01:35:41
these outs why do you do that thanks for listening to the Allin podcast wow David sacks poignant points
01:35:51
about regulatory capture freeberg Wes mock Meats not for me Chamas everyone loves a Great
01:36:04
Dictator we'll see you next time all in podcast wow love you boys so good your better
01:36:17
impression everyone's got their superpower that's your super nasty nasty Jal butu it I'm coming on I'm coming on
01:36:25
all in all right sax inv Saxy poo invited me walk's better than your Trump I got to work on I I turned the Trump
01:36:32
off for three years give me a break I'm gonna can you a Joe pesi can you do a Joe peshy do I have a Joe pesi in
01:36:38
me uh I feel like you do a good Joe PES I do I do I'll bring you a Joe pesi next
01:36:44
I take request I'll do a Joe pesi next week sure why not he only does the peshy involuntarily when he gets in the
01:36:49
chopper everybody you got a short I'm running for I'm running for president you got to change the
01:36:57
laws Trump you have to change it so a German can be president Austrian Austrian Austrian yeah all right
01:37:05
we oh yeah rate and subscribe and all that other if you want byebye let your winners
01:37:15
ride Rainman David and instead we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy
01:37:24
with it love you queen [Music] of Besties are that's my dog taking a your driveway oh man myit meet we should all
01:37:44
just get a room and just have one big huge orgy cuz they're all just us it's like this like sexual tension that they
01:37:49
just need to release somehow what [Music] we need to get mer [Music] our I'm going all
01:38:08
[Music] in