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Cham who are you giggling with are you with your kids what's going on here you're you're making goog I got I got a
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message from that she's like is it hel no no I got a message from that she's so funny so you know we I was like blah
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blah blah she did a Uranus joke into my chat and I lost it it is like a Freo says your anus is right there at
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the edge of the UN she's like no she's like are you hungry I could eat a Uranus oh no we could go to a great restaurant
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Urus they serve great meals there they have a great chocolate lava let your winners
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ride and instead we open sources to the fans and they've just gone crazy with iten
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of all right everybody welcome back to your favorite podcast of all time it's episode 169 of Allin with me again the
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chairman dictator jamath ptia David freeberg your Sultan of Science and the Rainman yeah definitely David Sachs has
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his Monclair hat back again I guess they're back in stock how we doing boys welcome back to the show let's get to
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the docket here issue one Elon has sued open AI begun the meme Wars have after we finished the recording last week the
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memes are incredible after we finished recording last week Elon sued Sam Waltman Greg Brockman and
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the open AI organization he's suing for breach of contract fiduciary duty and unfair competition and his argument is
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basically open AI started as an open source nonprofit as you know he he gave them something like 50 or 75 million if
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both those numbers quoted and then of course everybody knows open AI turned into closed AI they became a closed
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Source for-profit Venture after the tech was deployed this enabled them obviously to
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to benefit from tax uh nonprofit tax breaks while building the tech but they now have two corporate entities this is
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nonprofit called open AI there's a for-profit it's called open AI Global LLC that was created in
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2019 and this all this funky relationship between the two we'll get into that because it's kind of
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interesting actually Elon said that if open AI is allowed to do this then it should be the standard for every company
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going forward that's an interesting point you can start by donating money to a nonprofit and then make a for-profit
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seems pretty C Capital efficient so what do Elon want to get out of this according to the lawsuit he wants open
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AI to open source their models by the way that's what Facebook and Appo are doing right now so that that seems more
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than reasonable since that's how the company was formed and he wants to make sure that shareholders receive no
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Financial benefit from open Ai and we can get more into a bunch of the open AI nonprofit status and and
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their structure it's super convoluted but I want to just get your initial reaction sacks I haven't read the legal
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filings Jason my knowledge of the case is just coming from following what's on Twitter and the last time I commented on
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one of elon's lawsuits on this pod I ended up in six hours of deposition so remember that was the the whole
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Twitter lawsuit in any event my understanding of the case from the tweets that are flying back and
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forth is I think Elon is making two points one is that when open AI was set up it was set up to to be a nonprofit
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and to promote AI as an open source technology that everyone could benefit from and no one large tech company would
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control in that case Elon was primarily concerned about Google I think now he's more concerned about Microsoft
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nonetheless the idea was that this would be open source so I think Point number one is
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Elon feels like the rug was pulled out from under him after he donated 40 something million dollars to this they
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completely changed what it was going to be and I think he's used the word swindled
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before he feels like he was cheated and I think usually when there's a lawsuit like this um it's usually because
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somebody does feel phenomenally cheated by what happened so I think that's the first point the second is that I think
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that elon's making is well wait a second if you can start a company as a nonprofit using pre-tax dollars and then
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all a sudden convert to for-profit then why wouldn't everybody do this in order to circumvent paying taxes and I think
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that's another I'd say valid and interesting point that that he's made now openai has responded to this by
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publishing some of elon's emails to them and they think that they have a Smoking
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Gun here because apparently Elon told them they need to raise far more money in order to have a
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chance of taking on Google deepmind I just don't know whether that's the Smoking Gun they claim it is but that's
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that's basically what they're putting out there and then to add fuel to the fire you've got VCS coming over the top
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debating different aspects of this you've got sort of venod Defending open AI he was the first VC investor in it
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and so he's been out there attacking Elon and then I think Mark Andre is responding to venod and may I know if
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he's exactly defending Elon anyway it's turned into a whole melstrom on X and then everyone else is start starting to
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put out a whole bunch of crazy memes so I don't know who's gonna win this case in court but the memes are
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definitely lit and U maybe the funniest one is that Elon has said that uh if open AI will simply changed their name
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to closed AI he'll drop the lawsuit I think he's serious about that I think he is serious about it but I think he's
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making his point which is you ended up doing something different than what you told me when you got me to write this
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big donation and when we co-founded this thing together so I think that sort of sums up elon's position on this
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Jam a year from now where do you think we'll be with this well I think I think there's one more thing which is
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that they used his name pretty aggressively to get more money and he was very instrumental in getting some of
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the early critical hires particularly Ilia which has been I think well documented SS to leave Google right so
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that's probably sacks where also some of this feeling that he was Bamboozled comes
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from but I think that all of those emotions matter less than the rule of law which is his second point which is
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the important Point irrespective of whatever one email says or another email it's not great for the US tax system if
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all of a sudden a big gaping loophole is identified and taken advantage of I think that there's a huge economic
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incentive for the State of California every other state where these open AI employees lived and have gotten equity
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and now have gotten paid there's an incentive for treasury there's an incentive for the
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IRS it touches a lot of aspects of very complicated tax law and so I think that's why there will be a resolution to
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this case because I think that that answer is very important and I think it will as he has correctly
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identified motivate a lot of people's actions going forward so independent of what the emotional situation is amongst
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all the all the actors in this play the reality is he's identified a loophole and that loophole needs to get fixed
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I'll give you a a different example of this that's much more benign but it dragged on for eight or nine years at
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Facebook there was a period where and this was public so I can I can tell you we transferred a lot of our IP to
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Ireland at one moment and there was a transfer payment and whatnot and then a few years afterwards when when every
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everybody realized including us and we had miscalculated but when everybody realized the value of Facebook that
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transfer payment did not seem correct and it was a huge tax ARB that we had facilitated right because all of that IP
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sitting inside of Ireland gets taxed at you know a very different rate than that
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IP would have gotten taxed in the United States and other companies had copied this long story short the IRS Su you
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know similar to you David I was in years of depositions and interviews and all of
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this stuff so the point is that the government really cares about these kinds of things because so much money is
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on the line and if open aai turns out to be this multi hundred billion dollar Behemoth this will get figured out in
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court because there's just too much money at stick freeberg any thoughts and maybe Steelman if if you feel like it
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open eyes position I think we're all ignoring the documents that open AI put out yesterday showing emails and
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interactions with Elon where Elon acknowledged and recognized the necessity of having a for-profit
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subsidiary that could pursue the interests of the foundation by raising billions of
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dollars of outside capital I think it's a really interesting set of facts that provides a
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different light on the story and it was really important that open AI released it I'm going to share a hold on fre I
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did mention that freeberg I mentioned that too my point is it doesn't allow you to break the law yeah so let me just
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um tell you guys uh a little bit about another example my sister works at a nonprofit called the Cystic Fibrosis
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Foundation cystic fibrosis is an inherited disorder affects the lungs and digestive
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tract it's debilitating really affects children there was a nonprofit called the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation
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established in 1955 they did tons of work on drug development research and it was a nonprofit profit for years until
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they realized that there needed to be a market-based system to create the necessary incentives to drive the
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capital needed to find a drug that could cure cystic fibrosis and in the year 2000 they
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invested out of their Foundation endowment $40 million in a company called Aurora biosciences subsequently
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it was acquired by vertex and they continued to invest another $60 million so total of 100 million bucks in the
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lifetime of the development of a drug that could cure this disease in 2005 a drug was discovered
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and in 2012 the FDA approved it the nonprofit then sold their rights their interest in this for-profit
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entity for $3.3 billion it was an incredible return it was the largest wow investment return by
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a nonprofit in history who did they sell it to back to the company I actually think they sold the rights to royalty
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Pharma who you and I know well and that $3.3 billion continued uh opened up this
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ability for them to continue to make investments they now fund biotech VCS and they make direct Investments and
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other things but it really set the Benchmark for this concept of what's called Venture philanthropy where a
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nonprofit parent company can make investments in for-profits that can raise additional Capital that's needed
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to pursue the broad difficult interests of the nonprofit and I think that this argument really kind of ties into what
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happened with open Ai and you can see it in the email exchanges with Elon where he was so impression that I I give Elon
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extraordinary credit for this that he saw that this is going to take billions of dollars a year of investment to
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realize the pursuit that open AI was going after and there was no way that Elon was going to be able to generate
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that cash himself or that Reed or others were going to just be able to Pony up that money they needed to have some sort
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of for-profit vehicle that would allow the market to work and allow capitalists to find their Capital into this
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organization to make this this investment interest so I think the real question with respect to is open AI in
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trouble as a foundation is does the nonprofit own a meaningful piece of the for-profit entity and I
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don't know the answer to that I don't know if you guys do sounds like it I mean yeah must right so if they do then
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they have an investment interest the second question is does the nonprofit parent still do charitable stuff because
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if it doesn't then there's a real question on the nonprofit status I think you have to have a certain amount of
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your assets deployed every year in order to qualify for 501c3 so I think the test in the courts
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will likely end up being look it's totally reasonable to have a for-profit entity to fund a for-profit entity other
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nonprofits have done it particularly when you need to attract billions of dollars of outside Capital to make it
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work the real question is does the nonprofit still do nonprofit stuff that's an interesting question because
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freeberg do you think that when they booted off the uh the nonprofit experts from the board that they they may have
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crossed a tripwire there yes yeah I'm no lawyer I'm no lawyer that's a great question I did a little journalism and I
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talked to a couple of people who are in and around two other of these scenarios one of the
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key issues here is that the IP in your example freeberg it wasn't like that cystic fibrosis organization did the
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drug Discovery right they didn't do it correct well they I think they they handed over some some research that was
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open and public at the time and they but they funded an independent forit and so
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what happened here was you had the IP and the employees of the nonprofit given gied they were transferred over to the
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for profit organization and they when the Mozilla Foundation did this and another company called SAS source and
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these both have two structures a nonprofit and a for-profit but in both of their cases they set up separate
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boards and the two different boards you know answer to the for-profit concerns and the nonprofit concerns they also
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didn't give huge chunks of equity to all of the employees which then sold them in
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secondary so what's happened here is all of the IP in all likelihood has been and
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the wealth transfer has gone to all these employees they've now done a secondary and this actually triggers a
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lot of IRS investigations the Mozilla Foundation which was making the Netscape browser which many of you probably have
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used over the years they were making hundreds of millions of dollars a year David from advertising with Google the
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IRS said hey wait a second you look like a for-profit to us so they made a for-profit entity all of the and
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Mitchell Baker and the team over there set this up so all the money went back into the Mozilla foundation in their
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nonprofit efforts and they just paid above Market salaries but it was very important that these things be separated
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and that the employees not have equity and that all that money flowed back up and I think this is where open AI is
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going to get super tripped up and I think the IRS is going to have a field day here here's the Nick can you please
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throw the image up this is from the open AI website that explains their structure so
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let's just speculate for a second because we're we just guessing but it has been reported that Microsoft owns
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49% right that's the number of the for-profit in this example Microsoft where it says minority economic interest
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that number there would be 49 and that's what they own of this open AI Global LLC and the majority owner is this
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holding company okay so that means 51% is there but it says here that that 51% is owned by a combination of the
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nonprofit employees and investors so the question is back to Sax's question we can know very precisely how much the the
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nonprofit owns by just exing out the investors and employees and I'm going to guess it's at least 30 or 40% I think
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that that's probably a pretty reasonable guess so it means that the open AI Foundation probably own somewhere
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between five to 20% is that fairly reasonable guess at the maximum that's seems right
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yeah and so I think that they're going to have to show that ownership structure and and decompose all these entities and
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show the the actual percentages if it's a lot less than that if it's say like a 1% thing then it's a
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little bit more sketch I think but if it's really like 15 or 20% they're still going to have to prove
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that all of this was done in um in a clean way because the the big thing that these guys did was because by creating
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this lpgp structure and these Capp profits it's clear that they were trying to avoid something and the question is
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in the discovery will everybody learn what it is that they were trying to avoid because I've been through this I
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think saak you've been through it freeberg you were through it when you set up these large vehicles
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and pulled amounts of money folks come out of the woodwork with all kinds of convoluted structures and the discipline
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is always to tell these lawyers and accountants no and they'll be like let's set up a
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master feeder and you'll go through Bermuda and this and that and and it's so easy to say yes because it's very
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seductive what they're selling you but it's always about trying to avoid something so the real question is why
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this convoluted structure what was it trying to avoid and where did this IP come from like all that IP sacks came
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from a nonprofit all those employees worked for the nonprofit then they decided to go from an open
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source model to closed and then by doing that they capture all the value and then
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it's gifted to these employees and this investor base that's where I think but remember well it's important to remember
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the majority of the IP that exists at open AI today was generated after the for-profit was set up the real question
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was there a fair transfer at the time when it was set up of value into this for-profit entity and my guess is that
00:17:57
GP box that you just looked at the compensation that they're earning through that GP box that the nonprofit
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earns is likely meant to be kind of a a fair amount relative to what was contributed at the time the real
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question for me Still Remains What other nonprofit and charitable work does the open AI 501c3 actually do and if there's
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the answer is nothing and it's just a shell nonprofit and under it the only thing that it owns is a for-profit
00:18:25
interest then I think there's a real question on what's the activity and I I don't mean to speak out of turn on all
00:18:30
this stuff I don't know enough but I think that's the only sort of lens I would kind of look at this stuff through
00:18:35
S going to say something well a couple of points one is one of my contentions has been never innovate on structure all
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you do is create legal problems there's a tried andrue way of creating a startup
00:18:48
which is a a C Corp when you try to innovate on legal instead of product it almost always
00:18:54
backfires the second Point here is I think open AI is in a little bit of a damned if you do damned if you don't
00:19:01
situation to go back to freeberg point about the nonprofit sitting at the top there remember what created all the
00:19:08
problems when Sam briefly got fired as CEO and then came back is they had these directors from the nonprofit world who
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didn't really seem to understand how startups worked and so either they fired Sam for no reason which was kind of
00:19:23
incompetent or they had a really good reason but didn't communicate it properly which was Al incompetent either
00:19:29
way that whole thing was a it was a spectacle and it just kind of showed that there was this like culture Clash
00:19:35
going on between the for-profit company and like the standard way of running a Silicon Valley startup to maximize the
00:19:43
outcome and then this nonprofit board that was sitting on top of the whole thing so I think that now they're in the
00:19:50
situation where they've changed that nonprofit board they've booted off the nonprofit people
00:19:59
and that may have been the right thing for the for-profit entity but now it might get them in trouble because it
00:20:06
lends Credence to elon's lawsuit that they've completely changed the original Mission of of this
00:20:13
organization it was supposed to be it was supposed to be open source yes and it was supposed to be nonprofit and now
00:20:20
it's for-profit and closed Source think about this you know and again we are speculating here but if it if the
00:20:26
mission was to be open sourced and then you realize you've got something super valuable and you close
00:20:32
Source it create a for-profit and then take all the employees and all the IP and put it into the for-profit lock it
00:20:39
down break the original Mission that hey this was going to help Humanity because
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we're going to make it open source so if you donate money here and we get the tax
00:20:46
exemption Humanity benefits because everybody gets to look at that code at the same time and work on it and iterate
00:20:53
now they they've just basically stolen all that in order to enrich themselves and I think think then you add to it Sam
00:20:59
maybe doing some deal making which seems to be one of the triggers according to reports and this open AI Venture fund
00:21:05
Etc maybe that deal making made the nonprofit people say Hey listen you're doing even more for-profit stuff with
00:21:10
the open AI name we're supposed to be a nonprofit here what's the Venture fund thing he started a venture fund to
00:21:16
invest in companies called the open AI Ventures fund and he was the sole owner of it which they're saying now it's a
00:21:22
clerical mistake or something but he's invested in a bunch of startups that have unique access ACC to the open AI
00:21:30
you know I think he's the he's the GP on behalf of open the open. fund he's a no
00:21:36
but he said GP on behalf of himself or on behalf of open the way the paperwork was done it was on behalf of himself
00:21:42
they're now saying that that was done in Era so okay fine maybe it was maybe it wasn't who knows actually we're gonna
00:21:49
wait wait the open AI fund yes whose money is that uh Sam raised the money to create
00:21:57
an open ey fund to to invest in companies using open AI software okay so that's a different kind of issue that's
00:22:05
called a corporate opportunity issue where open AI fund it's basically a a conflict of
00:22:13
interest where the Economic Opportunity of the open AI starup fund should belong
00:22:17
to open AI if Sam created a separate fund with separate LPS that he's the GP of and gets economics in that then
00:22:24
that's a potential usurpation of a corporate opportunity I don't I I don't know the truth of that matter I'm just
00:22:30
saying that's a slightly different issue to go back to uses the open a name yeah
00:22:36
that that's where like the corporate opportunity becomes really explicit to go back to the point you were making a
00:22:42
minute ago about the employees I just think and you use the word stealing I think it's like a really strong word I
00:22:48
mean I think we have to complement the employees of this company if it is a company including Sam including Greg
00:22:56
including Ilia for creating an amazing product right incred they've created something incredible absolutely and
00:23:03
they've created I think an amazing ecosystem and there's a lot of developers building on top of this and I
00:23:08
think no one is attacking their work and I and I think it's a little too harsh to
00:23:13
say that anyone's stealing anything because they have created all the value the question and and I think you have to
00:23:18
include Sam in that and say say that he's done a great job okay as CEO because they've built something amazing
00:23:23
and saxs to your point right it's not stealing because very smart investors are putting in money
00:23:28
Eyes Wide Open yeah I think that the criticism here is related to structure from my standpoint it's related to
00:23:35
structure and whether Elon was told something at the beginning that's different it got changed and clearly it
00:23:42
got changed in a way that was not consistent with the terms under which he initially contributed all this money
00:23:50
yeah I mine is I I'm stating what is the most cynical interpretation of what happened here there is the most
00:23:59
you know benign and benevolent interpretation you could have as well and and maybe the truth is in between
00:24:03
the two but the series of events that occur does not look good when you have a mission to give this intellectual
00:24:10
property to the world so no one person benefits from it all of humanity is supposed to benefit from it that was the
00:24:17
point of being open source right then you close it now who gets the benefit if it's closed right the employes right
00:24:26
that's a good point and that's going to be the of this the EMP and and if you really want the investors the investors
00:24:31
the investors that's how they were able to attract billions of dollars because you can't get billions of dollars great
00:24:36
to invest in something that's going to be open sourced and and then the employees sell two billion in
00:24:42
secondary so now you if you really want to take the most cynical approach to this or interpretation again this is
00:24:49
just one interpretation they took an open source project they closed it they raised money and then within the next
00:24:56
two years on this incredible Innovation they sold $2 billion and put that in their pockets now those employees if it
00:25:03
was a for-profit obviously no problem with that but they took a the stated mission of giving this to all of
00:25:10
humanity and then took three or four per of that gain and put it in their pockets
00:25:14
that's where I think this whole thing is going to get really crazy and this is where the IRS Point yeah and the IRS
00:25:21
also interpreted Mozilla which was just $100 million and none of the employees took
00:25:26
any of it the 100 million that came out of Mozilla they were just saying like I think you should pay tax on that should
00:25:32
you pay tax on that and then they were investigated for years so I think the IRS is going to be on this like crazy
00:25:38
based upon what happened to Mozilla which was Jason do you think do you think individual employee sellers are
00:25:45
going to get audited by the IRS because of this I I don't I mean I'm know we're in Uncharted Territory here when I did
00:25:52
some tweets and said hey can everybody contact me who has information on these structures I was able to find the some
00:25:57
Source example and they did it very clean and there was no like IP transfer or employees enriching themselves or you
00:26:06
know a god king like Sam doing all kinds of deals and enriching himself it was a
00:26:11
very clean structure and then Mitchell Baker who set up Mozilla also did the same thing hey we's pay the employees an
00:26:16
extra 50k on their salaries and they'll be a little overpaid in Silicon Valley but they're not getting billions of
00:26:21
dollars in equity which again I have no problem with people getting billion dollar billions of dollars in equity in
00:26:26
a for-profit but this was supposed to benefit Humanity it was supposed to be open if this was open source and they
00:26:33
took the 2 billion I would actually not have much of a problem with it because we could all be looking at that mission
00:26:38
and then saaks and myself and Friedberg and anybody who wanted to use that code could go in there and adapt it and you
00:26:44
know what there are four profits apple and meta which are producing open- Source software so if they're producing
00:26:51
Apple's pretty competent and meta is super competent in this respect they're able to do open source but Sam is
00:26:58
claiming or open AI is claiming it's too dangerous to show us the open source code I call on that their code
00:27:04
is not too dangerous for us to see that's complete utter so you you think that there is a motivation for
00:27:10
profit basically what you're saying is essentially that this was highly motivated by
00:27:16
profit versus like even like like some of the emails the emails try to paint a picture of very
00:27:25
industrious people on both sides who are trying to solve a very hard problem and
00:27:30
dealing with a conundrum that's really around Capital right yeah we need to we need to do all this training it's going
00:27:35
to be so expensive but I think what you're saying which is a a deviation from that is actually come on guys these
00:27:41
are all very smart people and those folks saw an opportunity to make a ton of money and they took
00:27:46
it I mean that seems like what happened here to me I mean it's aam's Razer kind of situation I think they if you look at
00:27:54
it I think they probably regretted making this a nonprofit and then try to figure out a way to reverse it that's
00:27:59
actually what I think is going on here and I do think there is part of it chth you're right that they needed servers
00:28:04
and they needed capacity but they could have done that without giving the employees tons of equity without selling
00:28:10
billions of dollars keeping it Ops and source and then telling Microsoft hey if you want access to this open source or
00:28:16
whatever and you know very you're making a very very good point in and and the reason is that if it was open source
00:28:26
Microsoft could have just taken it and done its own training and just paid for it yeah or make a donation to the
00:28:33
foundation this is interesting because it's a very good point because open AI yeah open AI dropped a few of the emails
00:28:40
that they had with Elon obviously those are Cherry Picked to help their case the
00:28:44
most what we don't know is what do the other emails show like what were their alternatives to this particular
00:28:50
structure could they have raised the necessary funds in a way that was more consistent with the original Mission of
00:28:54
the company could they have remained open source for example example also are there any emails where
00:29:01
employees talk about the potential benefit to them of going private going for-profit right those emails have
00:29:10
already been leaked there was this thing where in the open AI emails that were leaked they talked about being able to
00:29:16
swap this Phantom equity and open AI into either YC equity and then Elon said oh maybe SpaceX to but I'll have to
00:29:23
figure that out well then also like Microsoft coming in and buying 4 % and then it's close this is the other piece
00:29:30
that I would want to see in Discovery as well and again I don't have any problem
00:29:34
with any of the people I love Sam M I think he's great I think all the people there are great I think what they've
00:29:38
done for Humanity is great I just think they should have kept this thing open source which was the mission but then
00:29:43
they close Source at chth and then give 49% of it all the weights all the source
00:29:49
code to Microsoft so that to me was like a really like you you want to talk about
00:29:55
taking this nonprofits IP and then it some amount of that bag gets given to the employees for billions of dollars
00:30:01
and then Microsoft gets 49% of all that nonprofits effort to then go commercialize and Microsoft has added
00:30:08
what $500 billion dollar in market cap since this whole thing has been announced so now right all that profit
00:30:14
has been aggregated into Microsoft stock and I think this is where you got to understand why Elon feels swindled is
00:30:20
because not only are we going from nonprofit to for-profit and open source to closed Source he was specifically
00:30:27
concerned about all the benefits of AI crew to one powerful big tech company now at that time he thought it was
00:30:34
Google now it's Microsoft there's not really that much of a difference he never wanted all the benefits of AI in
00:30:41
the hands of one really powerful tech company right and Microsoft is the most it's now what the biggest company in the
00:30:49
world by market cap so this is like the opposite of what he intended they gifted
00:30:52
a trillion dollars to Microsoft probably there's an easy solution if they are people of good faith and they're doing
00:30:59
this for the right reasons open source it just go back and open source it Jason but to your earlier point that may solve
00:31:06
the lawsuit and Elon may drop the lawsuit but it's opened a can of worms with respect to tax and structuring
00:31:12
that's much bigger than just open AI yeah the entire nonprofit industry it's a tax problem for every new company it's
00:31:19
every other entrepreneur that studies this model and tries to replicate it for their own personal gain even if that
00:31:24
wasn't intentional here so there's whole set of issues that we've we've really cracked the egg here we got we got to
00:31:32
figure out how to unscramble there there's the IRS issues then there's what's morally right and then there's
00:31:37
elon's beef and if it is a for-profit company and Elon put in 50 million when it was a seed round what would he own
00:31:43
saxs what would his ownership in this for profit be oh my God I mean probably 98% okay and so yeah we we need know the
00:31:53
total size of that round he put in the first 40 million do we know what other people put in it was most of the money
00:31:58
right yeah it was most of the money so I mean if you put let's just put a crazy valuation on it 500 million okay he owns
00:32:05
whatever 10% at that point at that point it it would AI was not what it is today
00:32:11
so you would have raised that like you would have raised 150 on 50 pre okay I mean that's that's the way that that
00:32:17
that a very capex intensive deal in a space that wasn't thought to yield big outcomes that's unfortunate half the
00:32:24
company at least at least right so give him 20% of the compan is $20 billion that's even half of what you're saying
00:32:30
sack right we talked about on the show and that whole fracus with these nonprofit directors went down is we said
00:32:37
go back and and restructure the whole thing to make it what it always should have been which is just a clean
00:32:43
for-profit entity give Elon his Equity give Sam his Equity because it never made sense that have Sam has no equity
00:32:50
but he's got a venture firm it's it's all so convoluted it's a weird form of compensation in which they're giving him
00:32:57
corporate opportunities in effect as like a type of compensation when really he should
00:33:02
just have compensation in the corporation and then the corporation should own all of its opportunities oh
00:33:08
that's okay that's a really interesting thing you just said so basically yeah it's like he famously has no equity but
00:33:14
then he has this retained optionality to monetize the ecosystem so even though he's not monetizing the thing he's he
00:33:21
gets to monetize everything around and it seems like the the board or at least the new board's okay with that because
00:33:27
he is being undercompensated with respect to the main thing so then he gets the side things but that's not
00:33:32
really the way it should work either you know Bill Gates said to us famously when
00:33:36
we were at when I was at Facebook the value of an ecosystem is when the economic value generated by the
00:33:42
ecosystem exceeds that of the platform now in this case you'd actually rather have 50 basis points of the ecosystem
00:33:50
than 5% of open AI if that's true because if this thing could be so revolutionary you're talking 10 2030
00:33:56
trillion dollars what a mess oo Sam should just be given like a a huge option Grant an open AI
00:34:04
but then open AI should own its own Venture fund yeah and the SEC is looking into
00:34:10
all this stuff you know they look into a lot of things in fairness but they're looking into it what a mess and uh we'll
00:34:15
keep track of it the other thing that's crazy I don't know if you guys know this
00:34:19
but Nick just as we close here the most insane part of open's LP investment agreement which is on their website you
00:34:25
can just search for open LP agreement is this part the partnership exists to advance opening ey inc's mission of
00:34:31
ensuring that safe artificial general intelligence is deployed and benefits all of humanity the general partner duty
00:34:36
to this Mission and principles advance in open aing Charter y yada y take precedent over the obligation to
00:34:42
generate a profit the partnership may never make a profit and the general partner is under no obligation to do so
00:34:46
the general partner is free to reinvest any and all of the operating entities cash flow into research and development
00:34:52
activities Andor related expenses without any obligation to the limited partners and so they basically told
00:34:59
everybody venod and employees or whatever we can just basically make wipe your Equity out and we can do whatever
00:35:04
we want with the profits and you're probably going to lose your money so this this structure is weird do you guys
00:35:10
think that when the investors came in especially in this latest round the $86 billion round do you think they
00:35:17
underwrote the legal risk inherit in the structure or they just sort of handwaved
00:35:23
over it and said no typically what happens in these deals is you hire somebody like KPMG or deoe
00:35:32
or ernston young to do like the full Financial diligence packet right and that typically tends to be how a lot of
00:35:38
late stage organizations document that they've done and manage their fiduciary responsibilities on behalf of their
00:35:45
limited partners so what happens is you will do a deal you'll sign a term sheet you'll turn it over to deoe you'll turn
00:35:52
it over to KPMG and say please go and run this down and and then what they do is they will furnish a report that says
00:35:59
yes this meets all the customary expectations I suspect that if these folks were
00:36:05
doing a decent job of of running late stage money they probably sent it to those folks and those folks probably
00:36:13
produced something that said this looks fine now if you read Buffett's letter this year he has a really great
00:36:20
commentary on deoe and KPMG and these sorts of letters which is not exactly the most supportive is the best way to
00:36:29
say it you can find that mention in in his case it's deot and touch but typically Sachs that's what they do they
00:36:34
go to a KPMG or a deloid or a nurse and young and say and and by and by the way 99% of the time they're I mean they do
00:36:42
really good work but it's a standard structure and they just want to make sure that nothing nefarious is a muck in
00:36:49
this case I doubt anything was a muck anyways I doubt though that they looked at the structure and then also elevated
00:36:56
the the litigation risk of this getting Unwound I just don't see that that diligence report and I've seen enough of
00:37:01
them typically has that section in it the other thing that's completely hypocritical here is
00:37:09
they said when they hit AGI and they're going to be like a sentient artificial intelligent going on here Friedberg that
00:37:17
they would wrap up shop and they're going to no longer be a non nonprofit Etc but they haven't and but they're
00:37:22
claiming they haven't hit that but they closed the soft so it should be open source if they haven't
00:37:28
hit AGI and you don't think they've hit general intelligence right free barg or anything
00:37:35
close to it maybe you could educate the audience on what that is and and that claim that they have to shut off the for
00:37:41
profit yeah they haven't but I think the we keep repeating this concept of the models should be open source versus
00:37:51
closed Source making AI for the benefit of humanity can be interpreted in a lot of ways there may have been some
00:37:56
anecdotal conversation at some point with Elon or others about we're going to make the models open
00:38:02
source uh but there was a reason that that change was made along the way which was to attract dollars and those dollars
00:38:12
need to have some return of capital available to them because they're private investor dollars and so I don't
00:38:19
think that that was necessarily and correct me if I'm wrong I don't think that's in the mission that the open AI
00:38:24
software models will be open source making AI for the benefit of humanity could probably be interpreted in a lot
00:38:30
of different ways and we'll see but no I I don't think that anyone has this achieved
00:38:38
this Holy Grail of general intelligence yeah I think one of the the one of the more interesting and kind of wacky
00:38:47
things about open AI is that their mission is explicitly to create AGI which most people would associate
00:38:56
with some sort of sci-fi dystopian outcome and I think this has like raised the Fear Factor around AI because
00:39:04
they're explicitly trying to create the sence that's going to replace Humanity now I think they defined AGI in a
00:39:11
different way they say it's something that can replace 80% of the jobs but I think we all kind of know what it really
00:39:18
is so I just wonder if I think I think that that's like that assumes a steady state in the world so if you end up with
00:39:27
a system and the system has all the capabilities of a bunch of really highly qualified knowledge workers and I can
00:39:36
sit in front of a computer terminal and I can say let's design a mission to Mars
00:39:41
a mission to Mars could be a 20-year engineering project with hundreds of people involved to design the buildings
00:39:47
to design the flight path to figure out the fuel needs to figure out how you would then be able to terraform ours and
00:39:53
what if one person could interact with a computer and design a plan to go and inhabit Mars all of the technical detail
00:40:00
docks could be produced all of the engineering specifications could be generated all of the operating plans all
00:40:05
of the dates the amount of Labor needed the amount of production needed the amount of capital needed what would
00:40:10
otherwise take NASA or some you know International or well-funded private company many many decades to do a piece
00:40:17
of software could do in a very short order I think that's like a really like for me poignant example of the potential
00:40:25
of having these tools broadly available that the potential of humanity starts to
00:40:30
become much broader we could say I want to develop a city underneath the ocean because I want to explore more of the
00:40:36
earth I I think humans need to go go solve cancer figure out the biologic drugs and the combination of biologic
00:40:42
drugs that would be needed to solve cancer based on this this patient's genotype the extensibility of Highly
00:40:49
knowledgeable or what other people might call general intelligence type tooling is extraordinary that one individual
00:40:55
starts to have an entire cohort of knowledge workers available at their disposal to do things
00:41:02
that we can't even imagine today so I don't think that it is nefarious it's nefarious because we assume a steady
00:41:07
state of the world today that nothing changes therefore a piece of software replaces all of us but the potential of
00:41:13
humanity starts to stretch into a new era that we're not really comfortable with because we don't really know know
00:41:18
it or understand it yet I'm not saying it's nefarious to uh want to develop AI because I agree with you about all
00:41:25
the extraordinary potential of but I'm saying there's something a little bit cultish and weird about explicitly
00:41:31
devoting yourself to AGI which I think in common parlance means Skynet yeah it mean
00:41:40
you maybe that that parlance is what needs to be addressed which is Agi effectively enables equivalence to a a
00:41:47
human knowledge worker and that you know that can kind of unleash a new kind of set of opportunities you think that's
00:41:54
what it is my definition for AGI is smarter than the smartest human being who ever lived yeah I was talking to
00:41:59
somebody this week who's in a position who said the definition of AGI is very fuzzy that there isn't a clear
00:42:05
definition and therefore it allows every side to kind of anchor on their interpretation of what that term means
00:42:11
and therefore kind of justifies their position so you know I don't really feel great about like just saying are we at
00:42:17
AGI what is it we don't have a clear sense of what it means I do think if you look at some of the work that was done
00:42:22
by anthropic and published in the cloud 3 Model this week did any of you guys see the demos that were done of the
00:42:27
output of that model there was a guy who wrote a thesis in quantum physics on a very esoteric complicated problem set
00:42:34
and he asked Claude 3 to solve this problem set and it came up with his thesis it was really like extraordinary
00:42:40
and this is something he's like no one in the world knows this stuff and he's like I can't believe this model like
00:42:45
came up with my thesis and that's the sort of thing that very few people on Earth even read or understand and the
00:42:52
cloud 3 Model was able to kind of recreate the basis the buildup and then the the the output of his desent was
00:42:59
somebody writing a screenplay and then giving it the first two acts and say guess the third act and it's like oh
00:43:03
yeah this is the third act here's what happens like it's pretty impressive comp ask you like deep down
00:43:09
when these guys say they're going to create AGI what do you think they really mean in their heart of hearts oh they
00:43:16
mean the Terminator yeah they mean the sentient God you guys are you guys are propagating some bad you guys shouldn't
00:43:22
be I think that's what they think said it remember what Larry paage said to Elon don't be
00:43:29
speciest yeah I think there's like I think there's a meaningful number of people in The Tech Community who
00:43:36
deliberately want to give rise to the super intelligence there's another point of view of super intelligence where
00:43:41
super intelligence means that the software is now more intelligent than all humans and as a result the software
00:43:48
may have its own motivations to figure out how to supersede humans on earth now the the Larry Page statement which which
00:43:56
I I don't know firsthand I read the same article you did is one that a group of people might say evolution is
00:44:03
evolution you know people that's right and I know elon's taken this point of view that like you know we need to
00:44:10
maintain human human Supremacy but uh my my favorite test is you know there was there's the Turing test which like you
00:44:19
can't tell if it's a human or if it's a robot but Mustafa came up with the um with the modern touring test which is an
00:44:25
AI mod is given $100,000 and has to obtain 1 million go it's kind of interesting then the other other the
00:44:32
other interesting one was Gary Marcus he said uh the Ikea test the flat pack Furniture test an AI views the parts and
00:44:40
instructions of an Ikea flat pack product that controls a robot to assemble the furniture correctly oh look
00:44:47
what's up sunny it's now time to do a just a quick little congratulations to our dear friend Sund deep mandra we call
00:44:54
him Sunny that's his nickname and he's one of our poker buddies he keeps building great
00:44:59
companies and in this case sandep is the first person to collect all four besties
00:45:04
we all invested in his company definitive and definitive uh was working in AI but we got some great news this
00:45:11
week and we thought we would give him his flowers Sunny you want to tell us what happened this week with our
00:45:17
investment in your company definitive intelligence at definitive doio I believe is your demand yeah well you
00:45:24
know with your guys support and you know we've been growing our company and we saw a really great opportunity to work
00:45:30
together with grock and we've been working with them for a couple of months and all the hype that you've seen has
00:45:35
been built on the collaboration that we've done building the cloud offering the API offerings and so you know we've
00:45:41
decided to merge with them and we're super excited and all the besties are now not only shareholders in definitive
00:45:48
previously but now shareholders in Gro this is this is the first investment I think where we're all on the cap table
00:45:54
right so we can we're all rooting in the same Direction what's happening in the developer site how's the momentum going
00:45:59
well the the momentum is incredible you know we have now 16,000 plus developers in our you know self- served playground
00:46:07
there's well over like a thousand apps that people have developed using the API and all kinds of new functionality you
00:46:14
know the API allows people to get a higher rate of throughput on tokens and low latency so there all kinds of new
00:46:20
applications from voice to real-time translation of web pages you know we're collecting on our Discord we have you
00:46:27
know 3,000 people in the Discord as well it is a real Community that's come together building around Gro and what I
00:46:33
will say is you know sort of the same jump that developers saw when we went from dialup internet to broadband
00:46:38
they're seeing that now and from using like traditional apis for llms to using you know the ones that we offer you guys
00:46:46
support the latest anthropic models that they just launched that seem pretty kickass no we don't have those yet but
00:46:52
we're we're in you know we're having discussions with everyone out there there and we want to support their
00:46:57
models right now what we've done given all the demand is we've kind of limited it to llama 270b and mix trol and we
00:47:03
actually have a bunch of other models that we make available in private mode for folks we're pretty excited but if
00:47:08
there's anyone out there that wants to have us you know give us a call and we'll we'll get you going on our systems
00:47:13
well Sunny congrats to you you're an incredible entrepreneur and it's always fun to kind of be on the
00:47:22
journey with you this is my fourth business that I've done with sunny madra that's amazing extreme lands then there
00:47:29
was a company between no no no there was before you have to understand sunny and
00:47:33
I met because Sunny went to school where I grew up he went to the University of Ottawa I grew up there and we met
00:47:38
through a mutual friend and his first company was called sponge fish which I backed I think in 2006
00:47:46
maybe I mean I had no money I may have written a 0,000 10K maybe maybe less May 5K yeah I
00:47:54
mean whatever I had I didn't have much I like it's scraped together and it's it's
00:47:57
our fourth business Sunny's a veritable rabbit's foot you're a rabbit's foot sun
00:48:02
he is he is a lot Lu prefers the prepared well I mean I've been in two of Sund Deep's companies and uh I thank him
00:48:11
for that and then extreme Labs actually to to thank you again you sponsored a lot of my events 10 years ago when I was
00:48:17
coming up so I appreciate that so it's just great to see a nice guy win as opposed to the three miserable people
00:48:23
who I work with on this podcast keep winning so it's good now finally a good guy wins as opposed to the four of us I
00:48:28
appreciate all your guys support it means a lot to us you guys getting the developers and keep keep putting it out
00:48:35
there and and keep us honest as well so if we're not doing something right let us know really appreciate you guys all s
00:48:40
you want to say something motivational to sunny here I know you always have a great motivational word for your friends
00:48:47
something you say that just gives people that thrill of being in the game go ahead sax you always have something say
00:48:53
we're going to we're going to ship uh 20 million into your a safe note I know you
00:48:56
closed it but we're going to pry it open and uh get get some get some allocation
00:49:01
hey wait a second if you're prying open that's safe if the safe if there's a wedge I know a guy with a podcast who
00:49:08
could got 800,000 followers maybe I could slip in a quick five hundy is there possible what do you think Cy let
00:49:13
us know right now I don't know we we did a really big announcement with the Saudis this week so that price might be
00:49:18
up let us ship something into that safe note so we actually have some real skin in the game David text me all right
00:49:23
we'll do well no but seriously hey s wait a second if he I got to get a second Jason wants in for 500 by that he
00:49:30
means $500 so we'll let you no I got a gift card for you from Starbucks I got a $500 gift card for you and the team I
00:49:37
think I got likeon that that Starbucks gift card you sell for 20 cents in the dollar and then
00:49:43
ship let me zip it in let me zip it in maybe I can 100 Exit no seriously 500k from from your boy jcal all right
00:49:48
everybody thanks uh to Sunny for jumping on congratulations on the mder thanks guys all right issue two issue two apple
00:49:56
is battling two major iOS developers and Regulators are siding with the devs you
00:50:02
may know about the Apple versus epic gam Saga we've talked about it here epic games was planning to create a custom
00:50:08
App Store on iOS because Europe's dma the the digital markets act has said that Apple now has to allow thirdparty
00:50:16
app stores in the EU so epic created a developer account based in Sweden and apple actually approved the account two
00:50:23
weeks ago then on Wednesday Apple flipped terminated epic EU developer account and
00:50:28
app said one of the reasons they terminated the account was because epic CEO publicly criticized their dma
00:50:34
compliance plan additionally on Monday Apple was fined two billion by the eu's antitrust regulators and was forced to
00:50:41
remove its anti- steering rules uh from music apps like Spotify basically Apple has been restricting music apps from
00:50:47
informing users about pricing and discounts and the European commission considered this anti-competitive since
00:50:53
Apple runs Apple music and they want Spotify to pay 30% Daniel e friend of the Pod you know basically did a whole video
00:51:03
on this about how they can't charge 30% more yada yada sax you've uh spoken about Apple's Monopoly before your
00:51:10
thoughts on what's happening in the EU and then we'll get into Apple's wider problems I mean did you just say that
00:51:18
Apple booted Epic from their app store because they didn't like what epic said about them I think
00:51:26
well like they're violating epic's Free Speech because they don't like what epic
00:51:30
is saying I mean according to Epic yes this is crazy heavy-handed by apple apple heavy-handed with developers yeah
00:51:38
have they lost their minds I mean this is right out of power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely yeah
00:51:43
I mean whatever dispute you have with epic you don't boot them out of your app store because you don't like their
00:51:48
criticism of you I mean this is basically proving exactly what everyone's been saying about Apple which
00:51:55
is they're too powerful and heavy-handed and Apple's coming along and saying let
00:52:00
me confirm it for you guys by acting tyrannically against epic exactly I mean talk about a backfire this seems insane
00:52:07
to me yeah it's super nuts chamat any that'ss on this before we get into Apple's other problems I think it's the
00:52:15
beginning of of the decay of Apple Peak Apple well let's let's get into that um there's tons of headwinds facing Apple
00:52:22
you can add a bunch of other things to the list as well Jason yeah the thing is Apple for the last couple of years has
00:52:28
been what is effectively what we call a GDP plus Growth Company which means that
00:52:34
take GDP 2 3 4% maybe they can grow by a couple of percentage points more than that but they are effectively levered to
00:52:41
GDP meaning when you look at a Facebook or an Nvidia they're growing at 50% 200%
00:52:47
2,000% whatever it is that's not tied to GDP they're just taking share but Apple
00:52:53
is is a company now that grows as the as the economy of the world growth so that's not super great for its future
00:52:58
prospects unless it can expand the surface area of where they operate and then on that Dimension the there are a
00:53:06
few trillion dollar markets that they can really penetrate and they just announced that they've killed a project
00:53:11
in one of those areas which is Autos right project Titan which was1 billion turned out to be a
00:53:17
failure so all of these things I think mean to me that it is effectively becoming a cyclical rate sensitive stock
00:53:27
and then the Cuda is Warren Buffett and Nick and I were talking about it this week and what was
00:53:33
interesting about Buffett's letter is that you can tell when Buffett has gotten disengaged with a company based
00:53:42
on the number of times he mentions it in his annual letter so in this example this is the number of times Apple was
00:53:49
mentioned and just to be clear what I mean by mentions is not when it's included in a chart or part of a
00:53:54
disclosure what I mean is when Warren actually explicitly mentions it in a positive or even negative way or he
00:54:01
doesn't mention it at all which I think Rings very loudly he went from basically
00:54:06
saying Apple was the absolute endall and Beall and now what you can start to see
00:54:13
is this shrinking and it's gone from basically a bunch of times to almost none he did mention it once but he
00:54:19
mentioned it in the context of talking positively about Coca-Cola and AMX and he Wasing these two positions but just
00:54:26
mentioning that they were not as large in comparison to Apple that's the only mention in this year's annual letter
00:54:33
what's interesting about that is the last time that that happened was with drum roll Wells Fargo over 15 and 20
00:54:39
years Buffett built up a huge position I think he was able to weather the vicissitudes of the market so even
00:54:48
when the markets would contract he knew when to hold on to that company until he
00:54:52
realized that that company was not really one of his forever stocks and he got out of it and the number of times it
00:55:00
basically was mentioned in his letter went to zero so interestingly I think this Buffet index is a really important
00:55:08
one for Apple which is it went from a forever holding that he said he would own forever to barely getting mentioned
00:55:15
and above him on above apple on that list were all the Japanese trading companies that Buffett owns American
00:55:22
Express Coca-Cola so that is a person that understands the economy I think better than anybody else
00:55:28
in the world and so if you're basically taking a lever bet to the economy as a reason to own apple and the person that
00:55:35
understands the economy the most has now started to Pivot away he started to sell
00:55:40
in quarter four and then you see all of these things Anti-Trust rules killing projects in in trillion dollar Tams
00:55:47
unfortunately it speaks for a very bad next 5 to 10 years for this company unless they figure something out I think
00:55:53
it's just such a great insight with the Warren Buffett mentions and we should do
00:55:57
that forward looking like who is he talking about now and let the monitor when he stops talking about them I have
00:56:02
a theory about this I think this is really just about Peak iPhone if you look at the majority of their revenue
00:56:08
it's obviously from the iPhone which has become massively profitable over time but the iPhone Revenue has been flat for
00:56:15
a couple of years now and they're starting to make their money from Services everybody knows Apple 1 iCloud
00:56:22
storage Apple arcade Apple music apple plus TV they've got a great collection of services and services revenues
00:56:28
growing but I don't think that they are filling in this growth problem with the iPhone and this happened to me for the
00:56:35
first time and I don't know if you gentlemen have had the same experience but I was buying every Apple phone and
00:56:40
then I would buy every like M medium upgrade like when they would do like a 12 and then a 12s or an 11 11s and when
00:56:48
I got to iPhone 13 I was like this thing's kind of peaked and I just forgot to buy the 14 didn't need it and then I
00:56:54
bought the 15 and I'm sitting here with my 15 and my 13 I really couldn't tell the difference between them and so now
00:56:58
I'm a technologist who would buy it every year the latest one and I don't feel the need to upgrade it and I think
00:57:05
that a lot of people and I I have family members who would take two generations off now they take three or four
00:57:10
generations off so I don't even know what number I'm on you know I don't even know either it all looks the same to me
00:57:16
okay so I mean that's the problem here and then if you look at their road map what's what is the device post the Steve
00:57:24
Jobs era that they have launched how do you know what device you have you go to General in your settings and about I
00:57:31
just checked it I'm iPhone 13 Pro what version are they on what is it General they're on 15 and I'm on 13 Pro I don't
00:57:37
even know yeah and you're not price sensitive yeah and these things have gotten absurdly expensive so they're
00:57:43
trying to really extract what is the what is the latest 15 15 I'm on a 14 I don't like the hassle of having to like
00:57:51
reset everything when I get a new phone and it's easy to do now it's like all in
00:57:55
the cloud but even that going to the store buying it like who cares it's not my apps I have to relog in and freeberg
00:58:02
what uh what what Android phone are you on are you you're a googler didn't the googlers all have Android phones or are
00:58:08
you an your team iPhone I got the Macintosh original in 1984 I've only been on MacIntosh and
00:58:15
Apple product since then H what iPhone are you on be honest 15 Pro okay have you ever tried a pixel
00:58:24
freeb I don't like it but I just I'm not used to the OS I just what was the rule at Google if you
00:58:31
worked at Google did were you kind of forced to have an Android phone or did you just keep your iPhone in your pocket
00:58:37
and not take out there weren't a lot of Androids on the market when I was at Google because we acquired the company
00:58:43
when I was there in O we acquired Andy Ruben's company in 04 and I think the first major devices
00:58:53
started to roll out in 7 and so this was all post my era I left at the end of 06 wow freeberg that's an amazing chart
00:59:02
holy so pull up this chart now here's the global here's the global statistics the US market share is 57% for iOS but
00:59:10
on a global basis iOS only has a 27% market share in uh mobile operating systems Android is 72% and all other is
00:59:21
less than 1% but look at this it's all the future GDP is on Android Brazil Nigeria India holy but I think this is
00:59:30
one counter to your point shamat that the macro driver is as um the economic uh position the GDP per capita scales in
00:59:39
these bricks Nations they can start to afford to buy iPhones which are generally some multiple of the Android
00:59:46
devices in these markets that you see here so while today Android is 72% of the market if the Emerging Markets
00:59:53
continue to grow GDP capita and iOS continues to be the superior product you'll see apple able to to steal into
01:00:00
more share over time how do you but how do you do that when you have messaging groups on Android when you have photos
01:00:06
in Google photos and is it does the switching cost stop that do you think I don't know the answer to that it's a
01:00:12
good question they're down to5 to $25 for these Android phones in India there's a famous that's the difference
01:00:20
right so these Android devices I think apple is levered to GDP Global GDP so they need to figure out some way to grow
01:00:26
Superior to that is the market what could they do Services a company that generally has a bunch of cash flow being
01:00:36
generated by some set of products today and you assume stasis over time the market share for those products could be
01:00:43
eaten away you'll see the profits per year go down and a company like that will trade anywhere from you know 7 to
01:00:49
20 times the technology value arises from the value of the brand that you can launch new products lever your brand
01:00:55
leverage your distribution leverage the sale of new services and new products I think to your point shim off the
01:01:01
challenge apple is facing is that the pool of options the portfolio of call options that you would get a new product
01:01:09
coming out of apple is shrinking very Lim with the you know with the car being taken out of that pool now Apple Vision
01:01:15
Pro a lot of question marks on you know how much it can scale as you guys know I
01:01:19
I feel like there's going to be a market for that device but it's a it's a high-end device today it has to become
01:01:25
more cheap to be more ubiquitous the thing that a lot of these companies confront though is that you can also
01:01:30
grow inorganically right you don't necessarily have to incubate these projects we can remember the moment
01:01:36
Apple had a chance to buy Tesla right didn't then they didn't take it Apple still has a chance to buy pick
01:01:44
your company that that would take a sweet acquisition offer rivan Lucid postar whatever it is I'm not saying
01:01:51
that these companies are good or not good I'm just saying that Apple has the one tool that they've never used in
01:01:57
their toolbox is the large inorganic acquisition and at this point if they are proving that they can't execute
01:02:05
internally the market is going to demand that they prove they can use that balance sheet as a cudgel to go and
01:02:11
execute it externally yeah I think the challenge do that they're GNA discount that cash to zero the challenge is that
01:02:18
there's a certain discipline and quality to the products and the businesses that
01:02:23
apple produc es and runs and it's very hard to see that in other markets I mean why would they go buy a money losing low
01:02:30
margin Hardware uh car hardware company when they are proven to make you know quality on the reasons project tipan
01:02:38
fil yeah the article in Bloomberg basically said that the reason that they abandoned the project was in part that
01:02:47
they did not know how to go from where they were to a full production vehicle that could be level five and then when
01:02:54
it was proposed that they step down and just launch a level three autonomous vehicle everybody said no that it wasn't
01:03:00
disruptive enough well if that's the case the the thing that they made a decision about there was not going into
01:03:06
a market because of Regulation not because of technical capability and I don't think that that's
01:03:11
necessarily a smart decision they would have been better off going into the car market launching a level three vehicle
01:03:17
and just letting the market play out they probably just like they were able to do music have the influence to change
01:03:22
the laws yeah especially if they stepped in there with their rigor right and they
01:03:27
they're not doing that so it's a little bit of a head scratch of what's going on
01:03:30
over there they need some new products I mean maybe Apple Vision Pro someday becomes the platform of the future but
01:03:36
they've squeezed as much revenue as they can out of the iPhone Services seems like the best place for them to make
01:03:41
money but as we see my idea under assault yeah my idea was just that they should launch a huge competitor to AWS
01:03:49
as Ur and gcp so if you look every developer that Apple has theoretically could have been running on an Apple not
01:03:57
just on Apple's SDK and apis but they should be running in an Apple Cloud you could have made that claim and it would
01:04:02
have made a ton of sense for app developers to have TurnKey access to that right and they could have
01:04:07
subsidized it and by the way to Sax's point that would have been an incredible way to defend a 30% rev share okay
01:04:13
listen I'm taking 30% but here's a bunch of subsidized access to hardware and the
01:04:17
market would have loved it and in this AI shift they can still do that where now people are chipping away at the 30%
01:04:25
right people are saying well I can just build around you they need to do something and service is Jason the most
01:04:33
valuable thing they could do would be to launch a big cloud I think yeah I mean they have all the app developers on test
01:04:38
flight ready to go they just email them and say hey here's your free storage I mean they could just slowly add features
01:04:44
right and they're they're doing this uh open source I think it's called Maggie or Magpie or something but they're doing
01:04:51
an image one and uh well look if they could if they could just make Siri work like the way it was supposed to using an
01:04:58
llm and have it be like Snappy that'd be a major upgrade to the iPhone I don't think you need to buy a new iPhone for
01:05:05
that because it would just be a software upgrade but just getting Siri to work would be a big win I think that's where
01:05:12
they're going with their silicon and they just announced the M3 on the MacBook airs like they're making their
01:05:17
own silicon and I think it's going to power llms locally on the devices and that's so powerful I was using I photo
01:05:24
this week and in apple photos there's now on certain images if you swipe through them you'll see the little AI
01:05:31
icon when you click it it tells you things in the photo like that's a bulldog that's pasta and so they're
01:05:38
already subtly adding these features now that's a feature Google's had in Google
01:05:42
photos for five years but go ahead and open your phone right now and search for a dog or a bulldog or whatever type of
01:05:48
dog you got you know uh Labrador and then watch golden retriever that it actually knows how to do it they never
01:05:54
announced it it's just subtly being put in there uh so there's so many opportunities if they required a
01:06:00
hardware upgrade to get like actually good AI built into the software then everyone's going to have to upgrade for
01:06:06
that that's a pretty big motivation to upgrade there you have it Tim Cook somebody send this clip to Tim Cook put
01:06:13
put AI chips on your uh phone this isn't hard right I mean all they got to do is
01:06:17
just take the latest open source models and figure out how to customize them for
01:06:21
their own products yeah and they're doing it doing it right now all right let's go to Issue four Tik Tock
01:06:27
bipartisan ban will the CCP agree a bipartisan group of a dozen plus lawmakers introduced a bill that would
01:06:35
effectively ban Tik Tock in the house this week the bill is officially called the protecting Americans from foreign
01:06:40
adversary controlled applications act gives bite dance 165 days to divest from Tik Tok that's the parent company the
01:06:47
Chinese company that owns Tik Tok the app that's very popular in the west especially here in America it would make
01:06:53
it legal for companies like Apple and Google to show Tik Tok in their app stores as you know Tik Tok 170 million
01:07:00
us users and they claim that they're headquartered headquartered in Singapore I know people who have worked at Tik Tok
01:07:06
or do work at Tik Tok and they said that's nonsense to me the company said it has not and will not share user data
01:07:14
with the CCP in my mind it's an obvious lie in 20121 the CCP took a board seat on bite dance Beijing based subsidiary
01:07:22
that's according to Reuters and then in 2022 by dance admitted that it accessed IP addresses and data by journalists
01:07:28
covering Tik Tok to see if they'd been in the same places as B Dan employees obviously to find leakers and by Dan
01:07:34
claims they fired the people involved y yada last year a former head of engineering at by Dan us said CCP
01:07:39
members had god mode access to user data in 2018 sax um I can go explain more of
01:07:45
this but I just got to go to you here if this if bite dance is not spying on Americans and the CCP is on the board
01:07:54
that would be make no logical sense to me and why are they fighting the divestiture if it's just a financial
01:08:00
reason why would they take the CCP off their board do you think it's spyware do you think the US is crazy for allowing
01:08:05
this product here in the United States when we're not allowed to put Twitter Facebook Instagram pick your social
01:08:12
network in China we have zero reciprocity here look if it's true that Tik Tok is sharing data with the CCP
01:08:21
then I think the United States is well within rights to either ban it or cause it to be divested and I personally like
01:08:29
the divesture option I mean that's what Trump was suggesting during his term because we don't I think in the United
01:08:34
States like to just essentially confiscate or destroy people's property but I think we're
01:08:41
within our rights to require to be divested to an entity that we know is completely separate from and won't
01:08:48
cooperate with the CCP this bill is a better is better than the last bill we talked about that was
01:08:55
targeted at Tik Tok I don't know if you remember that one but it was weirdly prohibiting Americans from using VPN and
01:09:03
gave the government the right to go after Americans who are using VPN so this one seems cleaner and better and
01:09:09
more narrowly targeted at divesture now at the beginning of my response to you I
01:09:15
did say if you know I know that everyone's just assuming that it's true that Tik Tok is sharing data with the
01:09:24
CCP but I just want to confirm that that is the case because they are denying it
01:09:29
and I can understand why people think it and why it might even be likely but since we do have a concept of due
01:09:35
process in America I do think some evidence should be provided that that actually is taking place well we've had
01:09:43
you know whistleblowers inside there but chth if the CCP is spying on their own citizens what are the chances that they
01:09:49
wouldn't take the opportunity to spy on government officials who have Tik Tok on
01:09:53
their phone or their kids and get comprom mod on them possibly or no locations of people what does your gut
01:10:01
tell you is a CCP is this too dangerous for us to have here in America under CCP
01:10:05
control or this kind of influence being on their board I think you're asking the
01:10:10
exact right question I have two comments to make one is Nick if you can bring up this article
01:10:19
about the Google AI IP case basically what happened was that doj filed an indictment actually I think I sent I I
01:10:30
think I sent you guys the actual indictment but essentially what happened is there was an engineer at Google that
01:10:37
has been charged crazy that has been charged with stealing AI secrets for China and I don't know if whether he's
01:10:44
back in China now or not but the whole point is that if it's happened at Google right where there's a motivation for the
01:10:53
Chinese intelligence apparatus and frankly every intelligence apparatus to infiltrate that organization and get
01:10:59
access to all kinds of data I think we should presume by default that all of these organizations
01:11:07
are infiltrated and I think that that's probably a more conservative and reasonable posture so Facebook is
01:11:13
infiltrated Google is infiltrated apple is infiltrated Tik Tok is infiltrated so
01:11:19
on that Dimension I think that it should be considered 100% certainty that this data is getting back to not just the
01:11:27
Chinese but multiple state sponsored actors so the question about Tik Tok then I think should be one of business
01:11:35
and I think Paul mer lucky did a very good job of simplifying this down to its Essence which is essentially what he
01:11:42
called The Law of Equivalent Exchange if you want to just play this it's like just a few seconds I was kind of
01:11:46
frustrated that people made Tik talk into a cultural issue by the way I'm totally on the culture War side of it uh
01:11:53
but but but but I was saying practically speaking you should not make this a culture War issue don't talk about how
01:11:59
it's ruining our you's ideals just say strictly on a trade basis yes we cannot allow them to sell this thing to us if
01:12:08
we can't sell the same thing to them like that that should be totally fair that's reciprocity that's reciprocity me
01:12:14
and Palmer lucky and Sy right so this is what he calls the Law of Equivalent Exchange and I think it just makes a lot
01:12:19
of sense so on the face what I would say is Jal my response is I think that the CCP but also other intelligence
01:12:26
organizations have infiltrated all of these big companies and all of our data is accessible by them I'm not going to
01:12:34
say on a whim but I think it's accessible I think you have to deal with Tik Tok as a business issue and I agree
01:12:40
with Palmer lucky which is they should not be able to sell to us what we cannot sell to them and I think that that's a
01:12:45
fair principle that we can live on Resto is a very simple position freedberg let
01:12:51
me use your creativity Your Love of Cinema if you were to use this tool let's take the most cynical
01:12:58
approach here or interpretation CCP has complete access to the algorithms and they want to do maximum damage let's say
01:13:05
during the election let's say in a conflict like the one going on in Ukraine with Russia or in
01:13:14
Gaza what could they do using the algorithm using videos what would be the Doomsday scenario for America as in the
01:13:23
C CP comes in and influences the management of this company and tells them what to tweak and how and why yes
01:13:29
content what would they do I think we saw this during after October 7th that there was a significant surge
01:13:40
in Pro Hamas videos relative to Israel support videos that's the sort of thing where you could kind of see something
01:13:49
that sets an opinion that maybe disruptive to the social fabric to the election cycle that
01:13:57
starts to get shared more frequently and show shows up in feeds more frequently unlike Facebook and other places where
01:14:03
there's a linear feed where you can scroll up and select what you want to watch as you know Tik Tok has already
01:14:08
lined the videos up so when you scroll up they've they automatically play the next thing for you so the ranking really
01:14:14
matters in terms of viewership uh on Tik Tok unlike a lot of other kind of Select
01:14:19
to playay social media type sh an election hearts and Minds in a war well I've always said this I think it's the
01:14:27
craziest thing in the world that someone can spend advertising dollars and change someone's vote like
01:14:34
that like just think about that fact for a second I mean I've said this before and people have told me I'm an idiot for
01:14:39
saying it but meaning that you can or that it does that you that both that that that think about it like like people
01:14:47
don't individually go and gather data and then make an informed opinion about who they're going to vote for their opin
01:14:53
changes based on seeing an ad it is so crazy to me that that's the truth I think the I think the country knew that
01:14:59
it does that's why they prevented it from happening until yeah exactly but I mean I think
01:15:05
that's what's so nuts is that there's no longer a forced discourse that kind of makes people go out and choose what
01:15:14
content they want to consume what they want to hear debate stages Etc that now it's about who spends the most money to
01:15:20
get the most views in front of someone and that that actually influences someone's decision on who to vote for is
01:15:25
what's so compelling to me about why all of these systems have such extraordinary
01:15:30
power it's just so amazing to me that the more frequently someone sees an ad the more likely they are to buy
01:15:35
something or do something here's the bottom line this the more frequently you show someone a
01:15:40
AIC on Tik Tok the more likely they are to vote something differently this thing
01:15:44
is far too powerful for the CCP to have any kind of access to it for the Chinese
01:15:49
government to have any kind of access to it it has to be divested if you look at
01:15:53
what we went through in the last couple of election Cycles not being partisan here at all but we've said and we've
01:15:59
talked about Hunter Biden's laptop as but one example you know that was suppressed obviously on social networks
01:16:05
that could have been Amplified in social networks and it could have had the opposite effect Hillary Clinton's emails
01:16:10
you know Trump this Hillary this Biden that you you could really sway an election by putting in specific subtle
01:16:19
information let alone taking a hack and relasing it like they did with Hillary Clinton's email so you know those things
01:16:26
might not have swayed an election but sax if Putin had access to this like somebody who's super capable and he had
01:16:32
access always where it goes no I just secretly pulling the strings of our election okay Iran this is like the
01:16:40
biggest threat inflation ever okay look if you ask if you ask people out there do you think other people's votes are
01:16:49
influenced by social media they'll say yeah of course people are brainwashed if you say to them is your own vote
01:16:54
influenced by social media do you make up your own mind based on all the information you have they'll say yeah of
01:17:00
course I'm not brainwashed everybody else is and I I believe that people are closer to telling the truth when they're
01:17:06
talking about themselves because they understand their own situation better than they understand everyone else's
01:17:11
situation the fact of the matter is that all of us are constantly bombarded with
01:17:16
information 24 hours a day 7 days a week through all of the channels both online
01:17:21
and offline where we get information some of those data points come from advertisements but I don't think we take
01:17:28
ads very seriously we're trained to kind of even just block out the ads when I see banner ads or even ads in my stream
01:17:35
I just like scroll past them they don't even factor in my Consciousness I am influenced by accounts that I follow but
01:17:45
there are accounts I've chosen to follow because I think they have signal over noise and the more noisy those accounts
01:17:50
are the more I disregard them and and take them them less seriously with advertisements being the most noisy and
01:17:57
least useful channels so look I think at the end of the day this idea that we're
01:18:00
all being brainwashed and secretly influenced by malign foreign actors I think is at a minimum threat inflation
01:18:07
and that entire narrative might just be completely bogus nonetheless I do agree that for data
01:18:16
collection reasons and reciprocity reasons I think it's like I said we're within our rights to require the
01:18:23
divestment of of Tik Tok I you know s you don't make this into more than it is again I think this whole disinformation
01:18:31
narrative by the way you want to know why they push it so hard it's because our own intelligence Community wants to
01:18:38
be involved and there are political actors in the US who want to regulate quote disinformation on our own social
01:18:46
networks and I'm not talking about Tik Tok I'm talking about X I'm talking about Facebook insta and so on and we
01:18:51
saw this in the Twitter files we saw what a cozy relationship the intelligence Community had with Twitter
01:18:57
they were all up in there trying to control what Legacy Twitter was allowing URL they blocked the New York
01:19:06
Post URL and you've said on this program that you believe that could have swung the election well I think it was that I
01:19:12
think that actually was genuine election interference I actually said I didn't know whether it could swing the election
01:19:17
I think that you think could have I think it was a story that deserve be publ published so that and
01:19:25
distributed online so that the public could take that into account when they voted I mean and so if it had been
01:19:31
widely received do you think I'm asking a question not answering it okay you're you're asking me a question that I
01:19:38
personally think is irrelevant how would I know whether the suppression of that story swung the
01:19:44
election how could I know that the point is that the American people were deprived of information that they had
01:19:53
Believe come it would have swung the election well I can't prove I can't prove that it swung the election what
01:19:59
I'm saying is that it was a type of election interference why was that story suppressed because 51 former
01:20:05
intelligence officials who still maintain close relationships with the intelligence Community publish a bogus
01:20:10
letter saying that it was Russian disinformation which it wasn't and then that caused our social media sites to
01:20:16
suppress it so that to me is as concerning if not more concerning than whatever it is that Tik tok's accused of
01:20:25
so I don't want social media companies being used by the intelligence communities of either China or the
01:20:33
United States to swing or to influence our elections and we need to be equally concerned about that as we are about
01:20:41
supposed Chinese influence just to go back in time you probably remember the Willie Horton ad I mean that kind of
01:20:46
sunk dakus if you remember that I mean media and these ads can really have a big impact so people should just look
01:20:52
historically there have been many moments where whether it's Nixon sweating on TV or the wiie Hort Ed there
01:20:57
have been many moments where video can do this and I think the the they could be done even more subtly by the Chinese
01:21:03
by just you know promoting certain videos all right let's move on to bitcoin issue five bitcoin's back baby
01:21:10
it hits an all-time high 69,000 interesting number on Tuesday 69,000 before dropping sitting around
01:21:18
68k as we're taping it be 75 by the time you hear this or 50 it's been ripping in
01:21:25
2024 of 70% since January 25th uh there's two things going on here uh that you've
01:21:32
probably heard about the Bitcoin ETFs finally arrived in the US they were approved by the SEC on January 10th
01:21:38
we'll get into that in a minute moth obviously it's an ETF it's super easy to buy them and sell them they've
01:21:44
been a total hit black rocks Bitcoin ETF became the fastest ETF to ever reach 10
01:21:50
billion in assets also as the technical crypto heads in the audience know there is a having happening in April this
01:21:58
happens about every four years at the current Pace last one was May of 2020 when these
01:22:03
halfings happen the mining rewards are cut in half this reduces the supply of new Bitcoins entering circulation and
01:22:10
can cause some swings shath uh we had a we released a clip I think um just about
01:22:16
your prediction and you nailed it again you said this would be a big year for Bitcoin so your thoughts on being
01:22:25
right I don't have much thoughts on that but my two comments are that I talk to a
01:22:30
lot of Bitcoin Traders and and folks that seem to have a very good pulse and touch on this Market I don't say that I
01:22:38
I do because I don't really look at it every day but they seem to think that this thing is on a death march to 100K
01:22:45
I'm not sure whether that price is realistic or not in the year but I will say that we're going to get to a Tipping
01:22:53
Point where everybody really talks about this I still don't think we're there yet
01:22:57
I think we're just at the beginning but when you see the inflows into these ETFs
01:23:02
jakal it's like a very big deal because it just allows every mom and pop individual to buy some to the extent
01:23:09
that they want to own it or they want to speculate on it whatever it is so I I think it's been a very big
01:23:16
year and I think that psychologically it's proven a lot of folks wrong and it's a setup for something really
01:23:25
constructive the other thing I'll say is that it's not just Bitcoin but as goes Bitcoin there are a handful of other
01:23:34
things people are now speculating that there's going to be an ethereum ETF that gets approved as well because you know
01:23:40
if you approve one there's probably legitimate cause to approve a few others so these things are becoming part of the
01:23:46
financial Fabric and I think that that should not be underestimated and the SEC is still taking action against certain
01:23:53
Bad actors in crypto there were a couple of those this week but Bitcoin fredberg
01:23:57
is incredibly resilient just on a technological basis the fact that it hasn't broken down under stress it
01:24:04
hasn't had you know a denial of service type of attack or a government hasn't been able
01:24:11
to capture 51% of the mining or or some great amount of it or just even be hacked in any way you have to be
01:24:19
impressed by the the fundamental technology here free maybe you could speak to that level of success that this
01:24:25
thing is so stable and trustworthy and reliable to date it's you know it's got a great incentive model as long as
01:24:32
bitcoin price remains High the miners will still be there and the system will keep running if bitcoin price
01:24:39
drops transaction fees will decline the value of mining will Decline and you know it kind of goes the
01:24:47
other way as well I think the real question is in the last couple of years have we really seen seen a change in
01:24:53
Bitcoin being used for transactions or for Commerce in any meaningful way I think the answer is still likely not no
01:25:01
definitely not and it's really a stored value system and it's become this kind of stored value Asset freeberg this
01:25:07
microplastics thing we talked about it on the show and uh since that time I refused to open plastic bottles I'm
01:25:15
doing all glass I'm getting rid of all this goddamn plastic I I already did glass bottles in my house cuz I'm cheap
01:25:21
and I like to fill it from my water filter but we're uncovering more information
01:25:26
and then I saw this headline this week that microplastics are in our blood streams in some cases and what the heck
01:25:34
does that mean it's worse than that team of scientists in Italy collected samples from patients that had plaque
01:25:42
removed from their cored artery it's a kind of common cardiac procedure where you get plaque that blocks up in your
01:25:50
cored they go in they removed the plaque so a total of 304 patients agreed to have the plaque that was removed from
01:25:58
their artery submitted for analysis and then what this team did is they took that plaque and they studied it to
01:26:05
see how much plastic was found in that plaque and they used a bunch of measurement techniques to do this
01:26:14
including electron microscopy and mass spec so they because it's really hard to find these molecules and microplastics
01:26:21
or nanoplastics remember are less than 5 mm in size with a mean level of 21 microG per mg of plaque roughly 1 per 50
01:26:32
is the ratio of plastic to plaque that they found which is really incredible because it shows that Plastics these
01:26:39
little Nano and microplastics are accumulating good or incredible bad incredible bad that these micro Plastics
01:26:45
these nanoplastics are accumulating in the human body now here's the the scary part they then did a followup 34 months
01:26:52
later the patients that had plastic in their blood had a four and a half times higher Ratio or likelihood of having
01:27:00
heart attack stroke or death from any cause so all of these major health effects were four and a half times
01:27:08
elevated in patients that had plastic in their blood this was published in the New England Journal of Medicine if I
01:27:13
didn't say it it really indicates that there is this kind of cumulative problem and that the cumulative problem is
01:27:19
likely leading to really adverse health outcomes and I'll just highlight one other paper from a team in Germany and
01:27:26
Norway back in May of 2022 and this team tried to figure out how Plastics are causing adverse health effects in the
01:27:33
body and they had a theory like let's put little microplastics or nanoplastics together with all the human cells that
01:27:39
we know shake it up and see what happens and what they found was that these little plastic fragments were binding to
01:27:45
dendritic cells and monocytes key cells in the immune system and when those cells were um Bound by PL IC they
01:27:53
release these cyto and the pro-inflammatory signals go through the roof it causes the immune system to go
01:27:58
Highwire increases inflammation and the cascading effects of that obviously can ultimately lead to many of the events
01:28:05
that we're mentioning were measured in this set of patients in Italy so um again we're just starting to uncover
01:28:11
these effects this concept that microplastics and nanoplastics that are accumulating let me just say these
01:28:17
Plastics are mostly pet which is what we use to make plastic bottles that we drink water and drinks out and PVC or
01:28:23
polyvinyl chloride which is what a lot of our plastic plumbing and piping is made from and so as little tiny bits of
01:28:30
these plastic materials either are exposed to sunlight and break off and end up in our water and food supply and
01:28:35
we consume them they are slowly accumulating in in bodies and they may be driving inflammatory response they
01:28:41
may be driving adverse Health outcomes we're really kind of tip of the iceberg and really studying this understanding
01:28:46
and analyzing it but here's another really interesting empirical data set that highlights that this really is
01:28:52
um pretty significant half the patients had it and of that half they had a four and a half times higher chance of dying
01:28:59
or having a heart attack or a stroke in the 34 months that followed yeah the scary data the thing the thing that that
01:29:06
study said which was nuts is it it looked like the the nanop particles the nanoplastics and microplastics were
01:29:12
effectively acting as scaffolding for plaque so in in almost like it was a it was a shim that allowed it to grow the
01:29:20
question is would it grown faster than it would have otherwise that's even scarier
01:29:26
so I did not like reading that paper that really freaked me out really really freaked me out I was
01:29:35
drinking water from plastic water bottles this week and time I drink water out of a plastic bottle now I'm like
01:29:41
like nervous every time I take a Si you're not supposed to double your the risk of all cause mortality by drinking
01:29:47
yeah aiji water you know what I mean four and a half x four and a half X it's crazy in 34 months think about the
01:29:53
cumulative effect over time long perod imagine drinking water out of a plastic bottle thinking you're doing the right
01:30:00
thing and then trotting over to the recycling bin you know yeah and you do that for 20 years you may be killing
01:30:08
yourself well there it is so wait what's the if you if you if the water glass bottles you must use you cannot use
01:30:16
plastic you just can it's over no plastic no plastic you got to stop it's over we're drinking it's done glass cans
01:30:24
good plastic stainless steel stainless steel is fine just like I mentioned when we talked about this a few weeks ago the
01:30:32
carbon footprint the environmental cost the cash cost is much higher with all these alternatives to plastic so there
01:30:37
are big challenges with respect to having some big massive response to Plastics used in our supply but you know
01:30:45
living in the luxury world that we all get to live in we get to have that choice and we'll make that choice but
01:30:50
it's a real problem for Humanity because Plastics are so ubiquitous in so many things and they've they've enabled
01:30:56
they've enabled affordability of consumer goods this is such honestly like all you have to do is have
01:31:01
glass bottles or carry a water bottle with you like I have a Contigo one I like I carry it with me I empty it I it
01:31:10
I have a water filter in my house and we fill water bottles and put them in the fridge no but what if you like yogurt
01:31:15
yogurt comes in a plastic container there's all kinds of stuff you can't avoid plastic that's so scary we try to
01:31:21
that's so scary we we do have the French yogurt that comes in glass bottles but yes it is hard yes we do the French
01:31:26
yogurt in glass where do you get it from there's a French yogurt that comes in glass it's called
01:31:36
like or something they been while no water water you just install a filter system which you have at the mum and
01:31:42
just fill huge glass bottles just have your staff fill glass bottles and put them in the fridge and don't throw them
01:31:49
away and give your kids like some of these thermoses or whatever but don't have the water bottles like you know
01:31:54
it's so funny it's been a disaster in the poker game in some ways we got rid of it and there's been way more broken
01:32:01
glass people knock over the you know the the side tables I get it it's been a huge pain but I will not go back no it's
01:32:09
the right thing to do absolutely the right thing to do okay well if if jamath is endorsing this I guess I'm gonna take
01:32:15
it seriously I think you got to do it my opinion doesn't matter with sex I'm not
01:32:19
saying you're wrong I'm just saying that your threshold for becoming concerned is
01:32:25
lower and then if Cham if it hits Chamas threshold Which is higher I'm gonna take
01:32:30
it more seriously as your besti I would like you to stop using plastic for the rest of your life okay you're in a
01:32:36
position to do it I would ask you to not do it all right everybody Welcome can all you fers come back to the B so we
01:32:43
can see each other absolutely I miss you guys all right love you guys I miss you
01:32:47
I miss you guys too for the Sultan of science the chairman dictator and the Rainman David Sachs I am the
01:32:55
world's greatest moderator okay love you guys I got to go love see you next time
01:33:01
bye let your winners ride and instead we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy
01:33:12
with it love queen [Music] of besties are that's my dog taking your driveway oh man we should all just get a room and
01:33:33
just have one big huge orgy cuz they're all this useless it's like this like sexual tension that we just need to
01:33:38
release [Music] somehow we need to get merch our I'm going all [Music] in