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saaks you ready you got your quick time going oh yeah let me do that real quick and just a quick note saak Mr Kennedy
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doesn't have earpieces in so he we just have to be careful of the Cross talk we're talking over each other I'll
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direct uh questions to each person and then follow-ups you can obviously just use your judgment of when to insert
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yourself but be uh be gentle on the insertion there because we don't want that came out wrong um just be uh be
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gentle when you interrupt God there's your cold open at least if you did it incorrectly it'll be quick okay here we
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go in three two let your winners ride Rainman David and instead we open source it to
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the fans and they've just gone crazy with [Music] it all right everybody Welcome to the
00:00:50
all-in podcast as many of you know this podcast has gotten quite popular over the last two years typically in the top
00:00:56
10 or 20 each week and we talk about politics we've got a big following in DC and why are you calling
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me self-absorbed Cham I me listen to how your co-host opens his show calm down everybody it's okay yeah yeah and as
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part of that our ongoing discussions about politics and presidential candidates has
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resonated in particular communities and today we are lucky enough to have one of
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the top presidential hopefuls in the 2024 election joining us uh Robert Kennedy Jr and we will be inviting all
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presidential candidates to come on to the all-in podcast and have candid uh discussions that are
00:01:37
unfiltered the way the audience would expect them we're going to play with different formats but we decided for
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this first one we've got a series of topics we'd like to cover and we're going to treat it like any other all-in
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podcast with that I'll have David Sachs who has is the most conservative of our panel who has been also the most
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enthusiastic I think of every every body here uh and one of the most enthusiastic
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supporters of Robert Kennedy Jr's pursuit of the presidency of the United States so with that Dave would you like
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to introduce Our Guest yeah let me give uh Bobby a proper introduction here so Robert Francis Kennedy Jr is entering
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the political Arena as a candidate for the first time at the age of 69 but it's perhaps no exaggeration to say that he
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was destined for the mission he is now pursuing he is the nephew of President John F Kennedy and the son of attorney
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general and Senator Robert F Kennedy when Bobby was 14 his dad was running for president on a platform of civil
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rights civil liberties lifting Americans out of poverty and opposing the Vietnam
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War he had just won the California primary when he was tragically assassinated RFK Jr graduated from
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Harvard and the University of Virginia law school and became an environmental lawyer who aggressively litigated
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against corporate polluters and government agencies that were failing to regulate them he has always put the
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health and safety of the American people at the forfront of his activism and this
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has made him controversial at times as he has questioned the safety of some pharmaceutical products and also
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criticize Co restrictions during the pandemic for this the mainstream media has tried to paint him as a quote
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conspiracy theorist but given that so many conspiracy theories about Co have been Vindicated tablet magazine wrote
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quote at this point the fact that Robert F Kennedy is the country's leading conspiracy theorist alone qualifies him
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to be president but the biggest reason why I think his candidacy is so interesting and relevant is that it
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hearkens back to a Democratic party that believed in peace instead of War free speech and civil liberties in of
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censorship building up the middle class instead of the donor class and opposing corporate greed especially in the
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military-industrial complex which is a message you just don't hear much anymore coming from the Democratic side of the
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aisle so with that Bobby Kennedy welcome to the program thank you so much for having me so maybe we could start with
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foreign policy something we've discussed here specifically the Ukraine and Russia's invasion of Ukraine and our
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support of that war saak would you like to tea up a question for Mr Kennedy I think Bobby's tweets on the subject show
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that he has a really deep understanding of it he's been saying a lot of the things that I've been saying since the
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beginning of the war which it it not just the fact that we're risking World War III over you know getting involved
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in a in a country that isn't a treaty Ally of the United States it's never been a vital interest the United States
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but I think your critique goes deeper because you actually understand the causes of how this war started so maybe
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you know Bobby you could speak to that how how did we end up in this proxy war with with Russia from from your
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standpoint well you know F first of all I would let me start by saying this I supported the humanitarian Aid to
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the to the Ukraine which is what we were told initially was the was the mission although I had I was suspicious of it
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and you know my son as as I've mentioned actually went over left law school did not tell us where he was
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going and went over and joined the Foreign Legion um and fought in the k um uh offensive with a Special Forces Group
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he was served as a machine gunner he was in engagements with the Russians and but
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he feels the same way essentially that I do that this is no longer a humanitarian
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mission that are all the decisions the United States have made made has made since since the start has been about
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have been about prolonging the war about maximizing the the violence of the war um and being absolutely in
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transigent against the many opportunities to actually settle the war if and and that my understanding of the
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war is that not that zinski is pushing this war as hard as he can but that the neocons in the White House want this war
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they want regime change with the Russians they want to exhaust the Russian armies this is what uh defense
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secretary Lloyd Austin said in 2022 our objective is to exhaust and degrade Russian forces so they cannot fight
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anywhere else in the world um and President Biden acknowledged that one of his objectives in the war is regime
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Chang in Russia removing Vladimir Putin well if those are the objectives that is
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the opp of a humanitarian mission that is a mission to maximize casualties to prolong the war it's essentially a war
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of attrition and that's what we're seeing and the brunt of this is being paid by the flower of Ukrainian youth
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there have been over 300,000 this is something that the US government and the Ukrainian government have worked hard to
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hide the number of casualties which has been catastrophic this is the most violent conflict since World War II
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that's taken place probably any in the world and the casualties are enormous all over 300,000 Ukrainian dead the
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Russians are killing Ukrainian depending on who you believe at a ratio of 5:1 to
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8:1 which was the seven to one in the in the recently recently leaked The Whistleblower leaked um Pentagon
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documents and the the Russians cannot lose this war we're being told they're losing they cannot afford to lose this
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War this is existential for them and they have been building up their forces they have a 10 to1 artillery advantage
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on us and this is an artillery War it's simply and we do not have the artillery to replace what we've lost up there this
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is a war that is preceding in a very cataclysmic trajectory and that the the answer to
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your question about how we got in this War uh goes back you a long way but I would say the the real story starts in
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2014 when the US government and particularly the neocons in the White House and elsewhere uh participated and supported
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the overthrow violent overthrow a couet against the democratically elected government of the Ukraine and put in a
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very very anti-russian government this prompted the Russians who then believe that that the
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US Navy was now going to be invited into the Black Sea to have a ported Crimea it
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prompted the Russians to preemptively invade Crimea at the same time the r the government that went came into the
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Ukraine began enacting a series of laws that turned the Russian populations of the Dumas region into second class
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citizens they they um they illegalized essentially their culture their language and they began ultimately
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killing them they killed 14,000 of them and it was a it prompted a civil war in the country and the Russian uh response
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which was illegal I have no sympathy or um toward Vladimir Putin Vladimir Putin is a gangster and he's a thug but his uh
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his response in the dumb o was not irrational so I guess the question becomes if you were elected president
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would you stop sending armaments to Ukraine I would immediately I I have a ceasefire and I would settle the war and
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I think it can be settled I don't even know I mean listen the best settlement for this war was outlined in the M
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Accords in 2014 the M Accords which all the European uh countries agreed upon was when they when
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the Russians said and the Russian people in Dumas voted to leave Russia and Russia did not want them Russia said no
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let's develop an accord an agreement which would make Dumas a an autonomous region within the Ukraine which would
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agree to not put missile systems in Ukraine NATO missile systems which would agree that Ukraine would not join NATO
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if zinsky says no I want to keep fighting would you stop sending us weapons I would settle this I would
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settle this war the Ukraine cannot fight without us support So then at some point
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you would tell zilinski if I'm reading into what you're saying correctly hey settle it or out yeah yeah I would
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settle the war yeah do you think that we somehow allowed to believe that we would allow him into
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NATO meaning do you think that US foreign policy somehow almost induced this thing to happen I just want
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to try to understand the boundaries we have been doing integrative military exercises with the
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Ukrainian military so we were actively integrating them into NATO forces there was no
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question that you know the one thing that Putin said from the outset this is a rline you know when my uncle was
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President one of the things that he said he said a couple of things he said number one the principal job of a
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president of the United States is to keep the nation out of war and he succeeded doing that during his term in
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office he he sent 16,000 military advisers to Vietnam who were not were not authorized to participate in combat
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that didn't mean that some of them didn't they were not authorized and in fact that that was fewer federal troops
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than he sent to get James marides into the University of Mississippi so he sent fewer to Vietnam and two weeks before he
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died he signed a national security order ordering all of those troops home by 1965 with the first thousand to come
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home that month by November and he died two weeks later so and then of course Johnson came in and remanded the war and
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sent 250,000 troops over there which is what all my uncle's military advisers wanted him to do yeah and he stood up to
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them um one of the other things my uncle said and you know the anniversary of his
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speech at American University which is an extraordinary speech probably one of the best in American history at Jeff Act
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is called called it the most important speech in American history um it was a speech to the
00:12:51
American people and it was it's an extraordinary speech because if you read it it's asking them to put their their
00:13:00
themselves into the shoes of the Russians and understand that the Russians bore the brunt of World War II
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they lost one out of every 13 Russians died in that war a third of their country was occupied and leveled to the
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ground it's like he said it's as if the entire east coast of the United States to Chicago was put into
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rubble and he described this in detail for the American people to say you know we're all people people we're all on an
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arc and we need to we need to understand each other's motives and not just vilify
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each other and what we're seeing now is this formula vilification this narrative
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that we saw with Saddam Hussein with you know Putin with every little war that we
00:13:46
want to get into those guys are pure evil we're pure good and we're going to go rescue you
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know the Damsel in Distress just on that could you contrast and compare just maybe the last three or four presidents
00:13:59
on this very narrow dimension of that of JFK's promise of what a president should
00:14:05
be doing Bush Obama Trump and now Biden how do you see the things that these guys have gotten right and or very wrong
00:14:13
here on that Dimension just on that Dimension you know I've been friends with Joe Biden for many many
00:14:19
years Joe Biden is a you know he's a go to warar guy he he was one of the strongest supporters of the Iraq War
00:14:26
he's been suppor of every war that's come along and that you know I think that's one of the reasons that you know
00:14:32
some of those that that portion of the democratic party which is a very very powerful kind of King
00:14:39
Pickers was very happy with him getting in offices that he never says no to a war I think Trump you know I liked a lot
00:14:48
of what Trump said about foreign policy about disentangling us from this knee-jerk reaction of you know of
00:14:57
constant Wars and that the cause that that imposes on our country what it's doing it's hollowing out our middle
00:15:03
class uh but then Trump did a lot of things including walking away from the you know from uh um uh the intermediate
00:15:12
nuclear missile treaty which is was another provocation for Russia because that treaty you know we're we're putting
00:15:21
these intermediate missile systems all along the Russian Border in Romania and Poland and you know and in in uh
00:15:29
Ukraine and uh and that those missiles can hit Cuba I mean can hit Moscow in a in a few minutes so there
00:15:39
was a very destabilizing system we all signed it and he walked away from it and now I don't think that was a I think
00:15:46
that was another provocation we should be deescalate these provocations though you
00:15:52
know the why it did NATO this is what George Kennan said after after you know the the the Soviet Union
00:16:00
collapsed why do we even have NATO anymore why do we have it why do we have it unless we're going to involve the
00:16:07
Russians in it why don't we do a marshal plan for Russia we won the war they are
00:16:13
the losers they admit they're the losers let they want to join the European Community let's make that easy for them
00:16:21
let's not continue to treat them as if they're the enemy because that is a self-fulfilling prophecy and that
00:16:29
unfortunately is what we did let's pivot then you want to contain and you would force everybody to the table to a
00:16:36
resolution if I'm understanding correctly you weren't explicit in terms of would you remove support but I think
00:16:42
we can infer from it you would have a point at which you would stop sending armaments to Ukraine we have
00:16:48
tremendous moral pressure and economic pressure and everything else on Ukraine how about this Jason I mean would you be
00:16:55
willing to take NATO expansion off the table if it helps W well Biden won't right no absolutely
00:17:04
why are we trying to expand we gave our word and we would not expand Nato one inch to the East and now we've gone into
00:17:12
13 countries you know uh it's a it is a provocation let's talk about Taiwan so we got to stay out of Wars if xiin
00:17:24
ping decides Taiwan is strategic and he invades Taiwan what would your response be if you were elected president well my
00:17:30
response would be to deescalate that conflict there's essentially a war party in
00:17:37
Washington um that is is encouraging that conflict that is druming up that conflict what I would do is I would I
00:17:47
would deescalate it I would stop looking at it as a threat right now and and and
00:17:55
allow the Chinese and the Taiwanese to come to their own solution about what kind of relationship they have and I
00:18:03
think that that that if we sto our provocations toward the Chinese that that would naturally deescalate and if
00:18:11
China decided it's strategic and we're going in anyway would you if you were president defend Taiwan that's a
00:18:19
question that I would not answer I'm curious why not why don't presidential candidates just answer that
00:18:26
question because you're committing the country to a war in the future that would be probably the bloodiest war ever
00:18:34
fought and it's not something that strategically it's not good strategy to pro pro project your your
00:18:42
intentions you want to leave room for negotiation you want to leave room for all kinds of movements and you want to
00:18:49
have a debate with the American people and with Congress Biden's been clear that he would defend it right so that's
00:18:55
an it's an interesting Insight right there freeberg do you want talk maybe a little bit about the economy and the
00:19:01
spending that we're seeing yeah so Robert I think my biggest question I've referenced this on the show a number of
00:19:07
times um is this uh extraordinary concern I have about the fiscal deficit and the
00:19:15
debt level of the US running deficits north of a trillion dollars a year 33 trillion in total debt
00:19:24
some people use the debt to GDP metric which you know at this point is a coing or has exceeded
00:19:30
130% and 52 Nations that have reached that level of debt to GDP only one of them has not had to
00:19:40
restructure their currency or restructure their debt payments obviously with the debt seiling
00:19:45
approaching and some fiscal conservatives using this moment as a point to try and generate
00:19:52
leverage I guess my biggest question for the country now and going forward is you
00:19:59
know do we actually have the ability to pursue all of these interests on a social a geopolitical a security agenda
00:20:08
and and do so without having either a balanced budget or a plan that says here are the boundaries
00:20:17
and here are the boundary conditions because in the last couple of years and particularly in the last five years
00:20:23
we've seen almost like a bipartisan unmitigated spending spree that you know is largely driven to you know to to do
00:20:32
what the electorate wants which is to give people stuff and giving people stuff costs money and that money has to
00:20:37
be paid back at some point I guess how do you think about the importance of this and how do you think
00:20:44
about the boundary conditions that you would you know look to articulate and impose uh as you you know think about
00:20:52
this role with respect to the the deficit spending and the debt levels for this country in terms of a boundary I I
00:20:59
you know I would love to hear arguments about that but I um you know I we as you
00:21:05
say I think the the Deb is now 32 trillion uh the GDP our GDP is around 25 uh trillion so that is that's just a
00:21:15
really alarming ratio if you look at why you know the the primary cause are our military
00:21:22
expenditures it we're spending eight uh this year I think uh eight uh $8.4 trillion on the military budget this
00:21:32
year um but if you throw in the homeland security and all the surveillance and security expenditures at home it's 1.11
00:21:41
trillion a year that's 1.1 trillion a year that is attributable to to essentially to our our you know war
00:21:50
mongering and I don't think we can afford to be policemen of the world anymore we have 800 bases around the
00:21:56
world we need to start rebuilding our middle class at home we need to be responsible with our debt and we need my
00:22:04
grandfather always said that we should make America too expensive to conquer we should make
00:22:10
Fortress America we should arm America to the teeth at home so that no so we're too expensive to conquer and then we
00:22:18
should concentrate on building up our economic power and a robust middle class that's what's going to make America
00:22:25
strong and instead of uh projecting military strength abroad we ought to be projecting our economic strength and a
00:22:33
Marketplace of ideas and economic power I I you know right now we're borrowing six uh six billion dollars a day mainly
00:22:44
from the Chinese and Japanese just to serve the interest on that debt that's not a healthy thing for America to be
00:22:50
and we got to figure out you know a way to uh impose fiscal discipline but I can't tell you exactly what my
00:22:57
boundaries would be that's something I need to think about but how do you how do you think about
00:23:03
that like I think non of discretionary spending you know defense is is about 800 billion non-defense is about 900
00:23:13
billion and then obviously there's Social Security benefits Medicare Medicaid in order to get the budget
00:23:21
balanced you think cutting defense would be kind of the first priority and you could kind of get there through you know
00:23:28
approach but I I there still seems to be a big gap to me on you know given how much we're spending on how do we
00:23:35
actually get there are we ultimately going to have to kind of change retirement benefits restructure Medicare
00:23:40
Medicaid or are we going to raise taxes or are we going to do all three to get to this point otherwise we have this
00:23:46
obviously kind of NeverEnding debt spiral that that's that's going to cause a massive crisis uh whether it's not
00:23:51
this year maybe it's in 5 years or 10 years right now it's projected Social Security will go bankrupt in 2035 203
00:23:58
for around that range so this is coming up fast what are we going to be cutting besides defense and or are we going to
00:24:04
be raising taxes to 70% do you think to kind of bridge this hole I can't answer that question any better than I already
00:24:11
have you know I think there there is there are our targets for opportunity and the uh in the homeland security I
00:24:20
think once we stop fighting these Wars all over the world there's a lot n less need for us to have a surveillance State
00:24:26
at home so the real cost in the military is 1.1 trillion a year not just the 800
00:24:33
trillion that shows up on the book and I think those are targets for opportunity
00:24:38
and I I can't you know I have to I need to study more the issue about how to how
00:24:44
to get back into a balanced budget I you know one of the things I'd say disturbs
00:24:49
me is that I don't think we should be playing Chicken in Congress about raising the debt ceiling um because I
00:24:59
think I don't think we should mess around with the full faith and credit of the United States particularly at this
00:25:04
point in time one of the things that's happened in the world Bob is that there's been a couple of countries
00:25:11
France is probably the best example that had to raise the retirement age and irrespective
00:25:19
of the view that one has on whether that was right or wrong the Practical reality
00:25:25
of doing it is just that when these init social safety nets were passed the average life expectancy of folks was 10
00:25:34
15 years less than what they are today and presumably as we keep inventing Technologies folks are going to live to
00:25:42
80 90 100 years on average which may seem implausible but is likely if you look at the trend I'm just curious how
00:25:49
you think about the state of our social safety net and what has to change what would you keep the same
00:25:59
and what has to be totally reimagined for what the world will look like in 30 or 40 years I would say it's a red line
00:26:05
for me to touch Social Security um or Medicaid amican Medicare I think we need to take care of people particularly
00:26:12
people who have spent their whole life paying into a system with a promise at the end and
00:26:19
have worked hard and uh um and saved and done what they were supposed to do I don't think they you know it's right to
00:26:28
they rug out from under them but again I this is an issue that I need to spend more time looking at uh and studing
00:26:37
maybe the next time I come back here a better answer for you guys I think this is my concern is uh sorry but Robert the
00:26:44
the the comment you just made is the same comment I hear from both sides of the aisle that we can't touch Social
00:26:50
Security Medicare Medicaid because it would be so unpopular we wouldn't get elected and that's ultimately kind of
00:26:57
what a democracy like ours may lead to is that folks vote and elect representatives that are going to create
00:27:05
these systems that benefit them but in aggregate we may not be able to support those benefits over time and at scale
00:27:12
and we may be facing that moment sooner than any of us want to and I think it's one of the more pressing issues and
00:27:19
concerns not just for the United States but for the global economy that if the US doesn't resolve this massive hole
00:27:29
talking about social security for example going bankrupt in the next 12 years as one acute example of that
00:27:36
problem set you know we may not be able to turn it around and I mean do you think that
00:27:42
politics is set up to solve the structural economic problems that the US is now facing because so much of
00:27:49
politics ends up leading towards what additional benefits can I provide to my uh the folks that get me elected here's
00:27:55
the thing is we spent $8 trillion in the war in iraq8 trillion and we got nothing for it
00:28:05
yeah that's pretty nuts that's nuts in fact we got worse than nothing we killed more Iraqis than Saddam Hussein we
00:28:11
killed a million Iraqis probably uh we created Isis we turned Iraq into a proxy for Iran which is
00:28:18
exactly what we've been not trying to do for 40 years um and we drove 2 million refugees with the Iraq War in its
00:28:26
aftermath Syria Yen and you know Pakistan and Afghanistan 2 million refugees to Europe destabilize democracy
00:28:34
in Europe and we go ahead so $8 trillion there we spent $16 trillion on the pandemic on the lockdown and it got
00:28:43
again got nothing in return um so that's $24 trillion and now we're doing bank bailouts every you know couple of months
00:28:51
of the Silicon Valley Bank the FED said that it was uh printing 300 billion doar
00:28:58
for that made up for all of the you know deflationary um uh uh uh steps that the
00:29:06
Biden administration had previously taken you go to you know you go to a an American who's been working their whole
00:29:15
life and has been promised at the end of the life that they're going to get a few
00:29:19
bucks every month and you know I have a friend who I brought to my speech with me who who um during the sameth month
00:29:28
that we committed another 750 million during March we sent $750 million extra to the
00:29:36
Ukraine we uh we cut 15 million Americans from Medicare my friend got a call from from
00:29:44
the from the government on his cell phone a recorded call saying that your food stamps have just been cut by 90% he
00:29:53
went from $283 a month to $25 a month so you try to feed yourself on $25 a month there
00:30:03
are 30 million Americans who are starving right now and that to me is unacceptable and it's hard to go to
00:30:12
people like that people who have been honest who played by the rules who have done everything that they were supposed
00:30:19
to do with the promise that they would be taken care of that their healthc care would been taken care of an old age you
00:30:25
go to those people and say okay now we're going to cut food stamps and try to Fe feed yourself on
00:30:32
$25 a month try to feed yourself for $25 a week we're telling them that and then
00:30:39
uh and then spending 800 billion to make a plane how you going to cut the federal
00:30:44
budget when you're sending over 100 billion to Ukraine there's you can't you have no moral authority to do it I want
00:30:49
to finish that by saying you know you're like tinkering in the engine room when the ship is sinking you know because you
00:30:57
know or or switching Tech on the Titanic let's deal with the real problem let's figure out how to make this nation a
00:31:06
nation that is really focused on taking care of our people inside rather than saying okay well in order to pay for the
00:31:13
Ukraine war we got to screw every American on Social Security and Medicare we've had by the way the inflation that
00:31:22
we've created from you know from from just printing money is making my friend Key's food twice expensive so the the
00:31:31
cost of stables in this country has raised by 76% in 2 years and now they're cutting his food stamps and bailing out
00:31:39
the same month $300 million the Silicon Valley Bank we gotta I mean it doesn't make any sense and having this kind of
00:31:48
conversation how do we screw the poor to make sure that we can you know we can milk them while we're doing all of this
00:31:56
great it's this country is acting like the alcoholic who is behind on his mortgage
00:32:04
and who takes the milk money and goes into the bar and buys rounds for strangers you know that's what you're
00:32:09
dealing with that's a pretty good analogy shots everybody so let me let me ask a followup question on this dead
00:32:16
ceiling fight which is which is a game of chicken and the the country's economy might go off a cliff in the next month
00:32:24
because Republicans and Democrats can't agree so Biden's position is I want a clean debt cealing increase no terms on
00:32:33
it House Republicans have passed a debt seing increase but it contains things like a 1% cap on spending growth it
00:32:43
claws back unspent covid-19 relief funds and it would halt Biden's student debt forgiveness plan so Robert I guess the
00:32:52
question to you would be would you negotiate like what would your posture to House Republicans be would you be
00:32:58
willing to negotiate because Biden is basically saying I will not negotiate at all so negotiate or not negotiate I
00:33:05
guess that's my question to you you you you have to negotiate I'm not sure if he's posturing you know or what they
00:33:11
have to negotiate they have to you know they have to work out something that's good for our country and that you know
00:33:18
and they're going to both sides are going to have to give up something we have to you know we have to
00:33:23
put our country first and it's it's insane to play this game of with a you know with this when the stakes are so
00:33:31
there's been a lot of talk Robert about the Deep State the FBI doj CIA your family obviously having
00:33:40
dealt with two tragic assassinations your father and your uncle has dealt with this firsthand in terms of just
00:33:46
having the CIA information about these assassinations released I'm curious your position on some of the most
00:33:56
radical proposals people have this election cycle of dismantling the FBI CIA doj AKA The Deep state do you
00:34:06
believe there's a deep State and how would you as president deal with this intelligence uh operation we
00:34:15
have and and then also personally what are your personal feelings on it well um on the you know I have I you I've I
00:34:26
have a pretty clear idea about how I would handle um the intelligence agencies and
00:34:32
in fact my father was thinking very deeply about that at the time my father who believed his his you know first
00:34:39
reaction when his brother was killed was that the CIA had killed him in fact the
00:34:43
first three calls he made on that day and you know I was home uh at the time when John mcom the CIA was right across
00:34:53
the street from my house and so John mcom who's the CIA director you would come to our house and swim every day
00:35:00
after work during the Spring and summertime and my father called the CIA desk and talked to a desk officer and
00:35:08
said did your people do this that was his first call and he called Harry Ruiz who was a Cuban uh who was one of
00:35:16
the Cubans who had remained friendly with my family my you know while we were surrounded by Cubans growing up because
00:35:23
of who were Bay of Pigs refugees my father had got them freed after a year in you know in the uh
00:35:31
Castro prisons and um and my father and mother spent a lot of time finding houses for
00:35:39
them schools integrating them to the US military finding jobs and so we were all
00:35:44
raised very very closely with the Cuban Community but gradually they turned away from my
00:35:49
family but this one Cuban who had been been an engineer had fought with Castro and then turned against him when he came
00:35:57
became communist was very close friends with my father the second call that he made was to Harry Ruiz and he said did
00:36:05
uh did our people meaning the CIA people do this and um and that was uh and so my
00:36:14
father was thinking very very very carefully about how to handle this CIA he had been you know he had been
00:36:22
essentially managing the CIA since he came into office and he recognized that the problem and you know as I I talked
00:36:30
about my speech and I think David on this show mentioned this that during the Bay of Pigs
00:36:36
invasion my uncle realized that he had been lied to by by Charles gabell and Allan Dulles and Richard Bell the heads
00:36:45
of the as well as his Joint Chiefs and he came out in the middle of the invasion when it turned against them and
00:36:52
he realized these these men were being killed on the beach and he said I want to take the CIA and shattered into a
00:36:58
thousand pieces and Scatter it to the wind so he recognized that the function of the intelligence agencies had
00:37:05
devolved and that they were they had become captive of the military industrial complex and the military
00:37:12
contractors and their uh their function was essentially to provide our nation with a constant pipeline of new
00:37:21
Wars to feed the military industrial complex and the growth of the surveillance state and my father when he
00:37:29
ran for president Pete Hamill who was one of his favorite um newsmen asked him on the boss during two
00:37:37
weeks before he died asked him what what he was going to do about the CIA and he
00:37:42
said what we need to do is to we we need to remove the Espionage division Espionage Branch from the plans
00:37:54
division the plans division of the CIA is essentially the dirty tricks um provision that's the the division the
00:38:01
action uh division they do the assassinations they fix elections they do paramilitary operations Black Ops
00:38:09
torture black sites all of that stuff the Espionage Division and CIA was originally set up by Cuba by Truman as
00:38:17
an Espionage agency Espionage means information gathering and Analysis it's not violence it's about
00:38:25
information acquisition and unfortunately the the uh the clandestine action division was wagging the Espionage dog
00:38:38
so the function of the Espionage division was to to provide new actions things to do for the glenstein division
00:38:46
uh and then covering up their mistakes so there was never any accountability and what my father understood is that
00:38:54
the aspan division should not be working for the for the glendenin services they
00:38:59
should be overseeing them and particularly doing accountability oh you know what if the
00:39:08
CIA looks the way that the CIA looks at the war in Iraq is it was a success because we accomplished our mission of
00:39:16
deposing Saddam Hussein but and you know the CIA was George Tennant who lied to President
00:39:22
Bush and said it's a slam dunk so they got us to go in there at weapons of so as president would you rethink it and
00:39:31
then just as a final question as final followup to that do you believe they murdered or were involved in the murder
00:39:38
of your uncle what have you come to personally the CIA yes they were definitely involved in the murder and
00:39:44
the you know and the 60-year cover up they're still not releasing the you know the papers that legally they have to
00:39:51
release um but I don't think there's any doubt if you look at this huge you know
00:39:56
mount Monumental mountain of evidence and confessions and you know so many people have confessed to their
00:40:03
involvement and you know we understand um if you look I mean for anybody who has doubts about that I would recommend
00:40:12
a book I Jim Douglas called the Unspeakable because I think he's done a better job uh than anybody else at kind
00:40:20
of assembling and Distilling all of the millions and millions of documents that uh have been released over the past 50
00:40:30
years and these things these Revelations are released incrementally and so nobody
00:40:34
really takes notice of but when you put them all together the story is very clear so you you would definitely
00:40:39
rethink the CIA the FBI doj you know the whole intelligence at a minimum I think
00:40:45
what you're saying as well is maybe you would also release the documents that maybe
00:40:51
would at least provide some more transparency I just wanted to build on that because you had a very provocative
00:40:57
tweet part of what you're talking about is accountability and we need data and transparency to have that there are
00:41:04
people that have whistle blown there are people that have leaked and I think it's
00:41:09
fair to say that they've all been treated by the security apparatus in largely the exact same
00:41:15
way but you tweeted recently about your desire to see some of those folks forgiven and
00:41:21
pardoned do you want to just take a few minutes just to talk about some of those
00:41:24
folks that you think allowed us to actually see the truth if we want to see it and why you think that
00:41:30
and what you think should be done with folks like that I mean Julian Assange is an example Julian Assange is a newspaper
00:41:36
publisher he published leaked documents you know why are we I mean I if I was any newspaper the publisher in this
00:41:45
country I would be worried about that then now he can go to jail for life because he published League documents of
00:41:51
great import to the American people of things that should not have been secret that we should have known about
00:41:58
um Revelations that affect our civil rights affect our foreign policy affect things that we have a right to know
00:42:06
about and you know it's it's really it's strange that there's any support for his imprisonment among the
00:42:13
press and I think the Press is beginning to figure this out finally the most controversial of those figures is Edwin
00:42:20
Snowden but Edward Snowden um released documents that showed us we were all being spied
00:42:28
upon and that's important for Americans to know and in fact it was so important that Congress passed laws
00:42:37
based upon his Revelations to protect the American people so why are we punishing The Whistleblower rather than
00:42:44
punishing the people who were you know who were illegally spying on us that's what we should be doing we shouldn't be
00:42:53
jailing denters in our country we shouldn't be jailing whistle owers we should be jailing the people who break
00:42:59
the law to keep this bipartisan do you believe the Deep state is acting to subvert the Trump presidency and that
00:43:07
they are framing him on these three or four indictments that they are working on some that have
00:43:15
dropped some that haven't do you believe there's a deep state conspiracy against
00:43:19
Trump because you might be facing him I don't use the word deep St I mean I you know
00:43:24
I you know I've described how these uh bureaucracies function and it's not that it's not so much a group of people that
00:43:34
kind of deep split State implies there's a group of of people in kind of you know
00:43:38
black coats in a smoky room uh pulling strings but the corruption is systemic the these
00:43:46
uh you know they all of these agencies are captive agencies the CIA is ultimately working for a for industry
00:43:55
like the oil industry the coal industry and the military contractors and that they've always had that tie since the
00:44:01
very beginning you know Alan Dulles who had worked for svin Cromwell and ended up doing coupet Tas on behalf
00:44:09
of his former clients like Texico and United Fruit Texico and BP in in uh Iran in
00:44:16
1953 his former client United Fruit when when uh Jacob Harens and Guatemala tried
00:44:23
to nationalize United Fruit you know uh the a under dolls went over through the government to protect the interest of
00:44:30
his former clients so there's always been these ties to Industry and the ties now and particularly the oil
00:44:36
industry and the ties to um to the military industrial contractors really Drive CIA action and CIA intelligence
00:44:47
and we have to you know you have to stop and this is systemic in all these agencies I mean USDA is run by Carill
00:44:56
Smithfield um on Santo um Bo Pilgrim John Tyson EPA is right when we sued EPA um we got Discovery
00:45:07
documents that showed that the head of the pesticide division Jess Rowan had been secretly working for Monsanto for a
00:45:16
decade and you know sending memos back and forth with Monsanto directing them you need to kill this study you need to
00:45:22
kill that study and this unfortunately is not the exception it is the rule most of the people who work for those
00:45:29
agencies are good citizens they're good Americans they're honest and they're Patriots the people who tend to rise in
00:45:36
those agencies and occupy these very very powerful key positions from decades or years like Anthony fouchy 50 years
00:45:45
are people who are in the tank with industry and what we need to do is unravel that across the government and
00:45:53
that's really what people say that's the Deep state that really is what a systemic corruption within our agencies
00:46:01
that is that's driven by agency capture can we actually just talk about the Corona virus maybe pandemic for a second
00:46:08
and I I just want to tie in two concepts sometimes again there's a lot of mainstream
00:46:14
misinformation about it there is a lot that came out about you particularly as it relates to vaccines I just want to
00:46:21
give you an opportunity to set the record straight just on what you think happened Co all that corruption your
00:46:27
thought on vaccines the efficacy of our programs how we should change what we keep the same just maybe a chance to
00:46:32
clear the year so that we can get some of the gobleg on the internet set straight I mean it's hard to I you know
00:46:41
I wrote a a 250,000 paid book about it and I've written a couple of books and so it's hard to summarize you know what
00:46:49
went wrong in in a uh in a second but but essentially we had instead of a Public Health response to a Public
00:46:58
Health crisis we had a militarized and monetized response that was the inverse of what of everything that you would
00:47:05
want to do if you actually wanted to protect Public Health we've known you know if you look at who protocols or CDC
00:47:14
protocols the EU the NHS and Britain all those they all had protocols for how to
00:47:19
manage the pandemic they all said unanimously you do not use lockdowns Mass lockdown you quarantine the sick
00:47:29
you protect the vulnerable but you keep Society moving because the consequences of not to of shutting down Society will
00:47:36
be cataclysmic beyond anything that the disease is going to impose everybody knew that and so you know we had these
00:47:45
these agencies that that had drilled for years and years uh this alternative you
00:47:52
know militarized response and instead of you know doing what you want to do which is to get
00:47:59
early treatment to people to have I mean you know we we live in the age of the internet we should have had a a grid
00:48:06
that connected all 15 million Frontline doctors every country around the world and figured out what are you doing that
00:48:13
works in your country you know and try and then distilling that information and processing it and getting it to other
00:48:19
doctors well we knew it was working we knew I mean and hydroxy chloric were working we knew that since 2004 NIH did
00:48:27
this study that said hydroxychlor obliterates Corona virus we knew what would work at that time and what was the
00:48:35
response they the response was they could not allow early treatment to occur why because there's a little known
00:48:43
federal law that says if there is a drug that is shown effective against a Target
00:48:50
disease it is il a drug that is proof for any purpose it is illegal to issue a a emergency use authorization
00:49:01
for a vaccine so if they had admitted that hydroxychlor or IV mton worked against Corona virus it would have
00:49:07
destroyed their whole hundred billion dollar vaccine you know Enterprise so they had to kill early treatments and
00:49:16
they went after stuff that they knew worked they this was the first respiratory virus in history where
00:49:22
people would go to the hospital and they would test positive for coron vir virus
00:49:27
and be symptomatic they were sick that's why they went to the hospital and the hospital would say to them there is no
00:49:34
treatment go home till your lips turn blue and you can't breathe and come back and we will give you two things that are
00:49:41
going to kill you rem Desir and hydroxy and and uh and ventilation so people still look at in
00:49:50
this country and Anthony foui is a hero and we were doing things a couple miles from me in Malibu there were Police
00:49:59
pulling Surfers out of the surf and giving them thousand tickets and telling them to go home getting him out of the
00:50:05
sunshine where where Corona virus doesn't spread and lock him in their home where it does and every time they s
00:50:12
some one of these people home from the hospital sick it was a super spreader event oh you look at our record of
00:50:19
Corona virus and this is when nobody can explain who is you know defending fouy Etc we had the highest body count in the
00:50:29
world by far from Corona virus the our we have 4.2% of the world's population we had 16% of the
00:50:37
covid deaths how does anybody explain that and you go to Nations that didn't do what we told them Nigeria Nigeria is
00:50:46
the highest malaria burden in the world so it everybody everybody gets hydroxy chlorin once a week they call it Sunday
00:50:52
Sunday everybody in the country takes it on Sunday they had the highest is uh river bline is burden so half the
00:50:59
country's on high for meon Nigeria never had an epidemic it had a death rate in Nigeria of 14 people
00:51:06
per million population our death rate 3,000 per million population blacks in our countries were dying at 3.6 times
00:51:15
the rate of whites why were American blacks dying and Nigerian blacks weren't and uh and then you go to Haiti
00:51:23
Haiti had a and by the way Nigeria had 1.3% vaccination rate 80 had a 1.4% vaccination rate and they had a death
00:51:34
rate of 15 people per million population these are the countries that Tony fouchy
00:51:39
and Bill Gates said we got to get them vaccinated we got to do whatever we can because they're going to get totally
00:51:44
wiped out because their poverty and guess right they never had a pandemic across Africa there was a 10%
00:51:50
vaccination rate and guess what they had a death rate of about 340 so some people
00:51:57
uh think that the death rate here was overstated because of incentives to do that do you believe that as well so
00:52:04
maybe part of that death rate is it was overed but you believe looking back on this that fouchy as well as the Pharma
00:52:11
companies Bill Gates investments in those areas that led us down a path we'll call it the medical industrial the
00:52:19
farm industrial complex you believe the farm industrial complex dictated our response to Corona virus and then
00:52:25
freeberg I'll let you jump in yeah but you believe that that that's the I I don't have any
00:52:32
question I believe this was a you know it was as I said it was a military response I mean look at who was running
00:52:42
the look at who was running the Corona virus response wouldn't you think it would be
00:52:48
HHS well when they had when warp speed had to present its declassify its Oran Iz ational charts to show to the
00:52:58
FDA committee called verac when they demanded it and warps me went in and show them the organizational CH charts
00:53:07
the the the the agency running warp speed and pandemic response was not HHS it was NSA the National Security
00:53:17
Agency ail Haynes is the Director of National Intelligence so she was running operation warps spe and who was
00:53:26
manufacturing it wasn't fiser Mna it was 140 military contractors who you know who had lines ready and you say you know
00:53:36
and then you know all of this clamp down on on civil rights that we saw the the censorship um the closing the churches
00:53:45
the you know the the closing of the right to assemble the Banning of jury trials against pharmaceutical companies
00:53:51
they crushed the Seventh Amendment the First Amendment they closed down 3.3 3 million businesses with no due process
00:53:58
no just compensation uh they they obliterated the Fourth Amendment right to you know
00:54:04
uh to uh against warrantless searches and seizures with all these intrusive uh you know you you you have to show your
00:54:12
medical records to go get out of your house or to get into a public building freeberg what what is correct here do
00:54:18
you believe in what is incorrect about Roberts what's Robert saying if anything well look I mean there's obviously a lot
00:54:22
of things I could say by the way I was on the executive team at Monsanto for a couple years so you know I one one thing
00:54:28
I will say is I sat on the at the table facing the EPA and the USDA and certainly didn't feel like a very cozy
00:54:35
relationship and at least what I saw in the few years I was there it was it did feel like a very kind of Independent
00:54:43
Regulatory and challenging frankly regulatory process that Monsanto had to manage and deal with and go through and
00:54:49
and releasing new products you know I I don't think that this notion that there were kind of
00:54:54
embedded parties that did our whims and wishes really plays through at least for
00:54:59
my experience sitting there and I'm not a longtime Monsanto executive I built a software company sold it to Monsanto and
00:55:05
sat on the exec team for a few years after the acquisition but I guess the the more kind of I think bigger framing
00:55:14
question for you Robert is really around vaccines in general I think your your commentary around the the co
00:55:21
response and uh you know the influencing forces there didn't start with Co right
00:55:27
I mean you you've you've been a kind of you know outspoken voice on vaccines in general for some time is that a fair
00:55:35
statement because I think that that's part of the media narrative around your history and Legacy is that you have been
00:55:40
kind of outspoken on vaccines and the you know the the risks and the and the effects that you that you consider to be
00:55:47
kind of I don't know if it's implied or explicit with respect to the use and and
00:55:52
wide adoption of of vaccines over time maybe you could share a little bit about your broader perspective in the leading
00:55:57
up to co and how that then kind of informed your point of view specifically on Co you know my objective is not to
00:56:03
vac I'm not antia I'm fully vaccinated my kids were fully vaccinated um I wish at this point that
00:56:10
I had not done that because I know enough about them now but my principal objective is that
00:56:17
vaccines um in this the childhood vaccines are immune from pre-licensing safety testing of the 72 when I got was
00:56:26
a I got three vaccines my children got 72 doses of 16 vaccines and the vaccines are uh the one medical product that does
00:56:36
not have to go through uh Placebo controled trials where you test exposed versus unexposed population prior to
00:56:44
licenser and that there's a number of historical reasons for that that come out of the kind of
00:56:49
military uh Beginnings the these vaccines were regarded as um as National Security defense against of biological
00:56:57
attacks on our country so they wanted to make sure if the Russians attacked us with Anthrax or some other biological
00:57:03
agent they could quickly formulate and deploy vaccine at 200 million Americans with no regulatory
00:57:09
impediments so they they called them biologics rather than medicines and Exempted biologics from pre-licensing
00:57:16
safety tra I've litigated on that issue not one of them has ever been T tested pre licenser against so nobody
00:57:23
knows what the you know you can say that the vaccine is effective against the target
00:57:29
disease but you can't say that it's not causing worse problems now I I'll just summarize this story in the the vaccine
00:57:40
schedule exploded in 1986 the vaccine industry succeeded in getting Ronald Reagan to sign a law and
00:57:48
my uncle was also you know a group that was pressured by wyth which was losing $20 in Downstream liabilities
00:57:56
on every vaccine it made because of lawsuits for every dollar that it made and they in in profit they went to
00:58:04
Reagan and said we're going to get out of the vaccine business and you're going to be left without a vaccine Supply
00:58:10
unless you give us full immunity from liability and Reagan you reluctantly signed that and so today no matter how
00:58:19
negligent the company no matter how Grievous your injury no matter how Reckless their conduct you cannot sue
00:58:24
them that caused a gold rush cuz now you've got a product that there's no Downstream liability you're immune from
00:58:32
that there's no Upstream safety testing so that's a $250 million saving and there's no marketing or advertising cost
00:58:40
so because the federal government is going to mandate this product to 76 million American children whether they
00:58:46
like it or not and there's no better product in the world and so there was a gold rush and instead of three vaccines
00:58:53
we quickly ended up with 72 and now we're going to you know toward 80 right now and there's no end in sight and a
00:59:00
lot of those vaccines were unnecessary they're not even for casual disease cause diseases here's what happened in N
00:59:06
beginning in 1989 we experienced a chronic disease epidemic in this country it is unlike
00:59:14
anything in human history we went from having 6% of Americans affected by chronic disease to
00:59:21
54% by 2006 and what do I mean by chronic disease I mean neurological disease that I never saw when I was a
00:59:28
kid ADD ADHD speci a language a tick Ted syndrome um ASD autism narcolepsy all of
00:59:38
these suddenly appeared autism rates went from 1 in 10,000 to one every 34 1989 was the year this began Allergic
00:59:48
Disease peanut allergy suddenly appeared um food allergies eczema suddenly appeared uh an axis and Asthma you know
00:59:57
which had been around but it exploded and then autoimmune diseases like rheumatoid arthritis and juvenile
01:00:04
diabetes um I never knew a k I had 11 siblings about 70 cousins uh I never knew anybody with any of these diseases
01:00:13
and son why do five my kids have allergies so uh so then if you look at the manufacturer's inserts for those 72
01:00:25
vaccines there's 420 diseases that have been associated with the vaccines that are
01:00:33
listed including every one of those diseases that went epidemic in 1989 and this is the country which the
01:00:41
most heavily vaccinated and this was happening here unlike any other country in the world and so we have this you
01:00:48
know and and you know it's good for the Pharma because Pharma now makes 60 billion on the vaccines when I was a kid
01:00:55
they were making 200 50 million now they make 60 billion a year plus 100 billion
01:01:00
from covid vaccine Friedberg do you believe that these vaccines are overprescribed and are part of the rise
01:01:10
in ADHD and and all this Litany of diseases I'm just asking fredberg who's our resident scientist here do you do
01:01:16
you believe this you know explicitly as a scientist I'm curious I don't think there's direct evidence supporting that
01:01:23
relationship I think that there's a lot of environmental fact factors that have been
01:01:27
driving changes in you know the rate of problems with autoimmunity it relates to our food prod
01:01:35
products our food system it relates to environmental chemistry like Robert has talked about generally I think there's a
01:01:42
lot of environmental conditioning that's caused this rise in in in problems in human can
01:01:48
I interrupt for a second because I don't think it's solely the vaccines our children today are swimming around in a
01:01:54
toxic soup uh but there's a timeline and actually the a toxicologist that I've used in many of my law it's probably the
01:02:01
most famous in the country Phil landan looked at the timeline of the explosion of all these chronic diseases
01:02:09
and he said uh there's only a finite number of things that have caused it you know one is
01:02:16
glyphosate things that went became ubiquitous against in every demographic beginning in around 1993
01:02:24
1989 um one of m g is a neon niik toid pesticides pfoas cell phones ultrasound and he made the whole list um and so
01:02:36
it's a finite number and the question is and vaccines are are part of that and you know it is suspicious because the
01:02:44
vaccines list all of these side effects now I've I've put together books you know one of my books on this subject on
01:02:53
connecting these as 1, 1400 references and 400 studies digested so the the science out there is pretty clear but we
01:03:04
NIH refuses to study these things because it knows that whatever wherever they follow the dots it's going to end
01:03:12
up with a big shot and so they simply have stopped studying them and they've turned themselves into an incubator for
01:03:18
pharmaceutical products and they don't do this kind of basic research I want to just give you guys one example the most
01:03:25
common vaccine in the world is called the dtb vaccine deia Tanis and ptosis we gave it in this country in beginning
01:03:32
around 79 it was killing or uh causing severe brain injury and one out of every 300
01:03:39
kids who got it UCLA study funded by NIH that found it so they got rid of it that's what caused all the lawsuits that
01:03:47
eventually precipitated the passage of the vaccine we stopped it here they stopped in Europe but Bill Gates and who
01:03:54
are still giving it to 161 million African children every year it's the most popular vaccine on Earth Bill Gates
01:04:02
says publicly it saved 30 million lives he went to the Danish government and said we've saved 30 Million Lives will
01:04:09
you support this program in 2017 the Danish said show me the study that shows that it saved all those
01:04:15
lives he couldn't do it so they went down and they conducted his study West Africa with the Danes operate all these
01:04:22
health clinics and they looked at 30 years of data and as it turned out in a nation called Kenny Basel half the kids
01:04:29
in that country at the age two months had received the vaccine and half had not it was a perfect natural experiment
01:04:37
and they looked at 30 years of data and what they found was that the kids who received the vaccine were not dying of
01:04:43
dearia tetanus and pris but girls who received the vaccine were dying at 10 times the rate of
01:04:51
unvaccinated girls and they were not dying of anything ever anybody ever associated with the vaccine they were
01:04:57
dying of of bardia malaria anemia uh minor cuts and scrapes and mainly pulmonary respiratory diseases
01:05:07
and and pneumonia and what the researchers concluded and this was a a study funded by the Danish government
01:05:15
and Nova nordis which is a vaccine company and the scientists were all Prov vacine what they said is this vaccine is
01:05:22
killing more people than the disease ever were nobody knew it because nobody Associated
01:05:28
the people who were dying because they were dying all these different things were only the unvaccinated kids
01:05:34
so the vaccine had saved them from D theia tetus and P but it had ruined their immune system so that they could
01:05:42
not defend themselves against other diseases and that's the danger of not having Placebo control trials prior to
01:05:49
introducing the product particularly when you're going to mandate a product for healthy people let's um with with
01:05:55
our remaining time here move on to energy you and the environment you've got an incredible track record I
01:06:01
remember growing up in New York the amazing work you did for the Watershed project and I'll let you expand upon
01:06:08
that in a moment uh but the only confounding thing I I found in your position and I'm curious if it's changed
01:06:15
or not is that you spend decades trying to close the Indian Point Nuclear Power Plant in a time when clearly nuclear
01:06:23
power has gotten safer and is clearly I think the world believes and certainly everybody who's on this panel
01:06:29
believes nuclear is a key Point uh in the transition to Renewables so what is your actual position explain it to us as
01:06:38
basically as you can on nuclear power and do you regret or have you rethought your position on Indian
01:06:46
Point uh no I mean Indian Point is leaking trium into the in the Hudson every every day I don't see how you can
01:06:55
say it's and you know they they still haven't figured out what to do with the waste so they're now storing it you know
01:07:01
it's it's 18 miles from Midtown Manhattan um if a you know the the the shack where they were sto
01:07:10
storing uh the fuel rods had the structural Integrity of a Kmart a terrorist attack against it
01:07:18
would you know would uh basically render New York inhab uninhabited for you know the
01:07:26
next 5,000 years or so so to have to to put to put something that risky so close
01:07:32
to you know 10 million people doesn't make any sense now nuclear power I'm all for it if they can ever make it safe or
01:07:41
if they ever make it economical and it's not me saying it's unsafe it's the insurance industry they
01:07:47
can't get an insurance policy if they can't get an insurance policy then I would say I don't want it the nuclear
01:07:54
American nuclear I mean you go look at what Fukushima they're poisoning the Pacific
01:07:59
every day with huge amounts of really deadly radiation and they and now their only solution to it is to suck the water
01:08:07
out of the groundwater and store it in these big tanks and if you just go on the internet and look at a picture of
01:08:14
the Fukushima water tanks and they go onto the Horizon and there's no end to it Robert can I just make a point the
01:08:20
thing with nuclear that's worth separating is it's not the fun m al technology there that's broken in either example
01:08:28
that you use but it's the proident motive that caused both the industrial engineering of both plants to be subpar
01:08:37
because Fukushima for example was engineered not to the seismic levels that you really needed or elevation yeah
01:08:42
even coning all that here's what I would say is that you know in our country there's nuclear is regarded as
01:08:53
so dangerous that they can't get insurance so the industry had to go to Congress in a sleazy legislative
01:09:01
maneuver in the middle of the night and get the price Anderson Act pass so that there so that to shift their accident
01:09:08
burden onto the American public so if they plant goes up I and I and I was 10 miles from that plant then I'm going to
01:09:15
have to pay for it so I don't think that's free market capitalism I believe in free markets and I can tell
01:09:22
you this there is no public utility on the face of the earth that will build one of those plants without massive
01:09:30
public subsidies not one nobody will ever do it and then they have to store the waste for the next 30,000 years
01:09:38
which is five times the length of recorded human history and if you tell me how that you know if they had to
01:09:44
amortize that raate up front there's no way anybody do it number two or three or
01:09:50
four or whatever I've gotten to it caused now between 9 and $16 billion to build a nuclear power plant just the
01:10:01
construction cost and then you got to get the technitions and then you've got to get you know the waste disposal and
01:10:06
the regular outages and all of this there's no way that it could compete in a free market I believe in free market
01:10:13
capitalism I am a radical free marketeer I believe that our Energy System should
01:10:19
reflect the marketplace and they right now you can build a solar plan for a billion dollars a gwatt you can
01:10:28
build a wind plant for $1.2 billion a gwatt a coal plant will cost you about3 and5 billion dollar a gwatt and then you
01:10:36
have to pay for the fuel by cutting down the mountains of West Virginia poisoning
01:10:42
22,000 miles of the streams burning you know putting Mercury that gets into every freshwater fish in America
01:10:49
sterilizing the lakes of the Appalachians if they had to internalize that cause coal which says it's the you
01:10:57
know it's or nuke which says it's too cheap to meter it turns out it's the most expensive way to boil a pot of
01:11:03
water that's ever been divided I'm just trying to make the point that if you look at the levelized cost of energy now
01:11:08
what you're saying is exactly why solar and wind are winning it's just so much cleaner it makes so much more sense
01:11:14
there's no fuel cause and if the impediment is distribution is that we don't have a grid system that can
01:11:21
effectively you know orchestrate uh variable power and that's what let let me provide a counter that maybe it's not
01:11:28
about distribution but it's about scaling production capacity so you know if you look over nearly any historical
01:11:34
time scale since we've had industrial energy production on Earth for every 1% increase in GDP per capita you see a
01:11:42
roughly 1.2% increase in energy consumption per capita and so if you forecast out by the end of the century
01:11:49
the GDP per capita estimates in the US and around the world we need to increase global energy production by roughly you
01:11:57
know anywhere from 5 to 10x and you know the current system of pulling carbon out
01:12:03
of the ground and burning it up and pulling heat energy out of it doesn't scale doesn't make sense obviously put
01:12:08
aside the carbon effect problem and there appears to be you know a reasonable chance of a pretty serious
01:12:13
material shortage for renewable sources by the middle of next decade so what do you think is the right answer to long
01:12:20
range energy security and what sort of Technology should we be embracing and do you think that they scale fast enough to
01:12:26
kind of allow us to have our economy grow in the way that it needs to to support the the population demands over
01:12:33
the next Century I mean I'm agnostic about the energy sources and I think you need to you know you have to be eclectic
01:12:40
about it and a lot of them are are you know make sense locally but we I mean we have enough ener we have enough wind
01:12:49
energy in North Dakota North Dakota is the windiest place on Earth outside of the Arctic North Dakota Montana and
01:12:57
Texas we have enough wind energy to produce five times the amount of our entire grid um the problem is the North
01:13:06
Dakota wind farmer cannot get his product to Market because it dissipates in a you know we have an an
01:13:15
anti an or Antiquated grid system that simply will not efficiently move electrons across
01:13:23
country and we need a DC grid system that you know with off ramps in the big cities Etc that can do that in North
01:13:31
Dakota if you have an acre of Farmland it's worth about 300 bucks if you put a wind turbine on it it's worth about
01:13:38
3,200 bucks so every farmer in North Dakota wants to put wind turbines in their corn fields and the problem is
01:13:46
they cannot get that energy to Market that is the only choke point and if we and the same is true you know in in uh
01:13:54
in you know we have great solar power in this country um we we have you know we have an abundance of of renewable energy
01:14:04
in this country and the power the problem is the incumbents were were were were operating on rules under rules that
01:14:12
were written by the incumbents to reward the dirtiest filthiest most poisonous most toxic fuels from Hell rather than C
01:14:20
cheap clean green wholesome fuels from heaven and we ought to reverse that and and make it make them all competitive it
01:14:27
seems like technology and economics have reversed that in a way yeah yeah one last question on this so as president
01:14:33
would you support initiatives that could advance and allow approval of safe nuclear
01:14:42
fision production systems to be built here in the US well I I will like like I say I support
01:14:49
nuke and new technologies of nuke that are safe you know where they but but as as long as they can compete in a
01:14:56
Marketplace you show me and by by the way I think we should be doing science even when there's no you know economic
01:15:03
end to it so we should be looking at this stuff but I would not promote nuke if it's not competitive in the
01:15:09
marketplace and it's you know and and that means you know cleaning up your mess after yourself which you know is a
01:15:16
lesson we were all supposed to learn in kindergarten they have to show us what they're going to do with the ways how
01:15:21
they're going to internalize their cost rather than what they're doing now which
01:15:25
is to externalize their cause and internalize their profits okay we have covered a lot of territory and I hate to
01:15:32
get to uh controversial ones like culture wars but it's going to come up in the presidential election I
01:15:38
personally don't think this is what's important in the presidential election I think the fiscal stuff the energy stuff
01:15:44
the the wars and political stuff we've discussed today are much more important but I'm curious your take
01:15:51
on the issues around Disney to s trans uh and this cohort of issues which have become an obsession it seems
01:16:01
between certain members of certain political parties or both parties the media and certainly it's taken over a
01:16:07
lot of discussions amongst the generation on social media what's your take on all this and when you get caught
01:16:14
up in these debates in the presidential debates about trans athletes as put one example do you think a trans woman who
01:16:23
was a biological man should be able to be put in a female prison do you think they should be able to play on a female
01:16:30
basketball team and change with a bunch of 15-year-old girls in a high school locker room I've already said first one
01:16:38
want to say this I think that people I believe in bodily autonomy and that people's choices about what they want to
01:16:47
do with their body should be respected and people should not be shamed I do not believe that uh that
01:16:55
somebody who was born a biological man should be able to compete later on in life whatever choice they made on a
01:17:03
woman's team I mean I have a a niece who is uh playing softball at at BC she has worked uh she has devoted her
01:17:14
entire life to getting that scholarship and it's it's consumed her and I've watched you know during my lifetime
01:17:22
women's sports go from essentially nonex consistent to to Equitable mainly with men's sports and I think that's
01:17:30
important and I don't think that you know um uh women should lose ground um in in any way so I would you
01:17:39
know I've said I'm I I don't believe that that's the right thing but I think everybody should be
01:17:45
respected let me ask a question then uh about parents who are struggling with this
01:17:51
issue at what age should a doctor be allow owed to perform gender reassignment surgery on a individual you
01:18:02
believe adults so at what age should you be able to have gender surgery because this is going to come up
01:18:09
multiple times in this debate I think adults ought to have that choice uh I don't think a child should have that
01:18:16
choice um except with you know certainly not without parent parental permission and I really don't you know
01:18:25
uh I know that the um the I you know it's a and let's start by saying this this is a difficult issue and it's an
01:18:34
issue that we should not be judging people on and we should not be hating people about we should be trying to
01:18:41
solve people problems and give people as much leeway as possible to and as much respect as much leeway to exercise their
01:18:51
choices and much respect those choices as we possibly can um within that framework I don't believe
01:18:57
that it's uh that a child without their parental permission should be allowed to
01:19:02
choose that kind of surgery because what if their parents agree to it should a 15-year-old be able to be I that that's
01:19:10
a very difficult question and I I don't feel like I'm equipped to answer it I'm not gonna you know interfere there yeah
01:19:17
I think this panel agrees with this is a very difficult issue and you know people
01:19:21
should be yeah what do you think about things like critical race Theory and maybe we can just use that as a way
01:19:28
to just talk about the state of us education in general are we preparing our children for the task at
01:19:36
hand and what is the task at hand maybe in your eyes and how does it need to change if at all you know I think
01:19:43
critical rise Theory as much as I understand it um is you know though listen we should not be hiding from people we
01:19:52
should be honest people about the history in this country of genocide of racism and those things you know we need
01:20:00
to be honest about that with each other not to shame people not to make people people feel badly not to make people
01:20:07
feel guilty but to understand the Milestones that we never want to go near again and to move forward with those
01:20:15
things I you know in I I don't really understand the battle over critical race theory in in schools but you know to the
01:20:24
extent and somebody would say that this has to that that theme has to dominate all
01:20:32
historical um teaching I would be against that I think it's very very important you know
01:20:39
America our country has has done wonderful things in the world we have a history of idealism we have a history of
01:20:46
moral Authority and Leadership and we have a history of doing bad things to but I think for children for the sake of
01:20:52
our national Unity for the sake take of you know for we need to instill children
01:20:58
with a sense of optimism and hope and love and also a love of history I mean I grew up learning history and learning
01:21:05
you know kind of the heroic aspects of History which I Now understand are not the only parts of History um but it's
01:21:13
really important for children to have have role models to look up to and to have an optimistic view of our country
01:21:21
and to have to understand what the shared values are and by values I mean aspirational values you know the things
01:21:28
that our country is supposed to stand for when we are at for example Robert in the in San Francisco we canel advanced
01:21:36
placement classes because it made people feel bad do you think that was a good decision in the name of
01:21:43
equity no we should be inspiring our children towards excellence and we should be able to as adults give the
01:21:51
measures of what mean we mean by excellence and you know that inspires kids and inspires the best out of them and you
01:21:59
know we need to we need to have those kind of metrics so that doesn't make any sense to me then what's your view on for
01:22:06
example just educational diversity in charter schools and your just position on the teachers
01:22:12
unions yeah I mean my view is that we ought to be putting huge resources into public
01:22:18
schools and making them the best schools in the world and I think if we uh uh you
01:22:23
know right now we're making stealth bombers for a billion dollars that cannot fly in the rain and I think if we
01:22:32
just cut production of a couple of those we can make all our schools the best schools in the world do they need
01:22:37
competition do you believe in vouchers uh and um parents getting to choose which school they go to because it does
01:22:43
seem like there's not a lot of competition and that these teachers unions have a shangle hold on these
01:22:49
schools I have to look at that issue more I mean my inclination is that we should be putting resources into making
01:22:55
our Public Schools the best schools in the world but you said you believed in free
01:23:00
markets with regard to energy why not free markets in regard to education well it it's it has an appeal I I need to
01:23:07
look at okay fair enough yeah let's talk about censorship let's talk about the media one of the things that happened
01:23:12
during the covid pandemic is that a lot of people grew suspicious of the mainstream media even more suspicious
01:23:19
than they already had been it seemed like the media was carrying water on certain issues it was almost impossible
01:23:25
for the media to take seriously the idea that the virus might have come from the
01:23:30
Wuhan lab for example people who put forward that I think reasonable explanation were called conspiracy
01:23:38
theorists the media didn't want to look into why for exam just as an example fouchy lifted Obama's moratorium on gain
01:23:45
of function research couldn't get the media to really cover whether you know masking toddlers in school did anything
01:23:55
positive and then you know when we found out that the MRNA shots didn't prevent Co the way they said they never even
01:24:03
really asked the CEOs of fizer and these other companies when did you know this when did you know that the vaccines
01:24:09
didn't do what you said they're going to do and I remember at Davos you had a rebel news it was this Guerilla media
01:24:15
out outfit that accosted Bera the the CEO of fizer out in the street and they were just asking him questions that the
01:24:25
media is supposed to ask like you know when did you know what did you know and when did you know it with respect to
01:24:31
whether the the vaccines prevented the spread and you couldn't get the New York Times or any of the mainstream outl to
01:24:37
cover this at all so it fell to this Guerilla media outfit so any event that's a long windup but you know Robert
01:24:44
what's your take on the media why why can't we get what seems to be honest media coverage how does this fit into
01:24:51
your theory of regulatory capture who are they caring water for and why you know I in 20 um
01:25:02
15 I wrote a book on therasol and there was a a documentary that came out that time called Trad mounts it was a really
01:25:09
good um documentary on the the Mercury uh based um uh preservative that was in a lot of vaccines at that time and it's
01:25:19
been removed from most except for the flu vaccine now um but I took that I had a very close relationship with Roger hes
01:25:28
who was the founder of Fox News I had this weird relationship because when I was 19 years old I spent three months in
01:25:34
a tent with him in East Africa and um we you know he would like when when he started Fox M he became like Darth Vader
01:25:43
to me and we were anesthetic on every issue but we always he's was a very funny guy and very clever but and he was
01:25:51
also very loyal to his friends and he would make all of the host of Fox News put me on so
01:25:57
I was the only environmentalist who was going on Hannity and Bill O'Reilly and Neil Cavuto ET said regularly like
01:26:03
weekly and he made them do that but I went to him with this with this um this movie and showed it to him and
01:26:12
he found it compelling and he had a relative who he believe was vaccine injured a very very close relative and
01:26:20
he bought he believed what was going on and what the documentary you know the thrust of the documentary was and he
01:26:27
said I cannot let you talk about this on Fox News I'm sorry the first time he ever saw me this and he said um if I let
01:26:35
you if any of my hosts let you on to talk about this I would have to fire them and he said um and if I didn't F
01:26:43
I'd get a call from rert within 10 minutes and he said to me at that time that 70% of the revenues for his not on
01:26:53
network work news on um on Prime Time were pharmaceutical ads and that um that he said of 22 ad spaces that we sell on
01:27:06
the network news on the Evening News 17 of those are pharmaceutical the we cannot
01:27:12
afford to um to offend our biggest um our our biggest uh funer advertisers and you know I had this interesting
01:27:22
experience with Jake Tapper where when I worked on my Rolling Stone article deadly
01:27:28
immunity which was about this secret meeting that took place in Simpson with Georgia by CDC and all of the vaccine
01:27:35
companies and FDA Etc where they decided to hide the autism effect from the American people and we I got the
01:27:42
transcripts for him and published in Rolling Stone and um and Jake Tapper worked for
01:27:49
21 days with me on a on a doc on a exclusive story and he was going to add simultaneously with with rollingstone
01:28:00
publishing it and tap her the night before it went on he called me in total distress and he said it's been pulled by
01:28:07
corporate the whole thing is gone he said never in my career as corporate killed one of my stories and I'm really
01:28:14
angry and then I called him back the next day he's never spoken to me again but you know there are consequences for
01:28:20
these newscasters who depart from the Orthodoxy and they know it you know if you look at
01:28:27
Anderson Cooper He's got a now probably a $13 million a year salary but if you actually do the math
01:28:34
probably around 10 million of that comes from fizer which sponsors his show so you know that's he's working for them
01:28:41
he's not working for us and you know they know who they're working for explosive stuff uh and I can't
01:28:50
disagree with you as having been a publisher my whole career there why why even why even have
01:28:56
pharmaceutical ads on TV I mean only doctors can prescribe them yeah it was illegal prior to 1997 so there's only
01:29:05
two nations in the world that allow pharmaceutical advertising on TV one is uh New Zealand and the other is the
01:29:12
United States we both have you know these huge pharmaceutical sales so we take three to four times the amount of
01:29:19
pharmaceutical drugs as a European takes and we have the worst health results we
01:29:24
79th in terms of you know Health impacts you know Health outcomes among all nations and so you know and also
01:29:34
pharmaceutical drugs the third biggest killer of Americans after cancer and heart attack so it is not helping when
01:29:41
when they when FDA changed that rule um the AMA was against it like all the Medical Institution said you can't
01:29:49
do this it is going to destroy Health in America and but you know they did it and
01:29:54
and the problem is that these um that the pharmaceutical companies now no not not only can you know have this platform
01:30:00
for broadcasting their product but they also control content on the ask question
01:30:07
as far as I can tell I think the left just to be blunt hates you more than the right and so do you want to just comment
01:30:18
on your ability to get the mainstream media to pay attention particularly folks on the left and give you the air
01:30:25
time so that you can get your message up and how much the party matters in this process for you I don't know that
01:30:30
they're going to I mean it was kind of traumatic what happened this week to them not to me because I'm used to it
01:30:37
that ABC you know one of their the a person who describes herself as the journalist journalist and
01:30:45
gave me a long talk when I got to ABC um that uh when I got to The Green Room that she was not somebody who would
01:30:54
ever censor or cut and they're not working a cherry pick cuz I said to her I don't I'm very uncomfortable doing a
01:31:00
taped interview with you I know what you guys do when I tape an interview you cut
01:31:05
it up you cherry pick it you Dice it and you do and you then you play things out
01:31:09
of context and she said you won't do this see that from me I'm a journalist journalist I don't take orders from
01:31:15
anybody I do and then she asked me she says you know in the interview I didn't want to talk about vaccinees I'm not
01:31:23
going around the country talking about vaccines if you see my speeches I'm I don't mention vaccines I but if somebody
01:31:31
ask me about vaccines I'm going to tell the truth I'm not looking to talk about them I know a lot about them but I'm not
01:31:36
leading with that because I I'm interested in a lot of other issues oh she says um everything you've said about
01:31:45
vaccin about vaccines and autism has been debunked and um you know vaccines is clear do not cause autism what you
01:31:54
have to say by that and then I said by who and then I went into a long diet triap where I cited the cases the dates
01:32:03
the Publications and the studies that show that yeah obviously it caused autism and
01:32:10
she cut out that whole section and then and then so she had her question which stated at the industry talking point and
01:32:20
then she brackets the the news report on me with something at the beginning that says you know he's known
01:32:29
to be a chronic liar and a disinformation spreader and in the end she said we had to remove things he said
01:32:35
because they were false the whole thing was so weird that she has gotten criticism even from the left because you
01:32:42
know I mean what is a news caster supposed to do are they supposed to manipulate public information is their
01:32:49
job to protect Americans from dangerous thoughts are the audience a es do they have such contempt for their audiences
01:32:57
that they think that the audiences can't make up their own minds and what is their whole Vision about the traditional
01:33:04
role of the American Media as the Guardians of free speech in the first amendment in this country well you can
01:33:09
be sure our commitment to you is to not take out one sentence of anything you said there's some stuff I'd like you to
01:33:15
take out I mean I also found that a crazy decision for them to make if you're if
01:33:23
they believe that what you're saying about vaccines which they put on the table is incorrect or what you said
01:33:30
about autism or covid is incorrect they should be trained enough to rebut it and
01:33:37
have a thoughtful debate about you I'll be even more blunt my my short takeaway about you Robert is that you are this
01:33:45
odd person which is Born and Raised by The Establishment but raising a lot of very
01:33:52
uncomfortable questions about the EST lishment and I think that that's very complicated for people to deal with and
01:33:57
I don't think that folks will be very supportive you in the mainstream and I think the reason is because it'll cause
01:34:04
them to question all these systems that they put a lot of trust into that they work
01:34:09
within and so I I'm not even sure whether they're trying to play gotta journalism about vaccines or which is a
01:34:15
much bigger thing which is here is a guy that I do think it's very similar to Trump that says he came out of the house
01:34:22
and told us what was happening in the house and it actually turned out that was happening the Dave Chappelle quote
01:34:26
from Saturday Night Live I think you're a very different person than him but that comment is very much the same I
01:34:32
think people are attracted to the truth and the confirmatory evidence about when
01:34:37
they think that there's frankly corruption and when it's laid bare in plain English I think it's validating for
01:34:45
those on the outside because we're like we knew it and then for folks on the inside they're like we need to bury it
01:34:50
and I think that that's what you're going to be up against this entire election cycle so whether it's us
01:34:55
whether it's Rogan folks that'll give you the chance for you to just lay your case out for millions of people who can
01:35:02
smartly and intelligently make up their decision I think that's what it comes down to so I really just want to say
01:35:07
thank you for giving us so much time and just being as honest as you were and transparent as you were Sax's closing
01:35:14
thoughts here with yeah I agree with that I mean I think I think that's a a great reference jamath to to the
01:35:22
Chappelle quote I think that the ABC news interview was really telling because I think it's one
01:35:29
thing if they had edited the interview for time and just cut certain things but they didn't do that they cut out your
01:35:37
side of the conversation and then declared you guilty of misinformation but not letting the audience hear what
01:35:44
it is that you said they simply declared you guilty of it and I think in that case I think this is an example of how
01:35:51
dissenting views are labeled as misinformation as really a suppression tactic you know they they can't prove
01:35:59
that it was misinformation they didn't give you the chance to to say your your side of it and I think this is a tactic
01:36:05
now of the elite to declare certain inconvenient truths or viewpoints out of bounds they don't want them being
01:36:13
considered and I think what's very interesting about your campaign is you are going to force I think Elites and
01:36:21
you know various kinds foreign policy Elites Anderson Cooper political Elites media Elites Financial consider views
01:36:29
that you know whether you agree with them or not I think you've made them in a very articulate way and I know enough
01:36:34
about certain of your views like uh with respect to the origins of the Ukraine war to say yeah I I agree with that I
01:36:41
believe that's true so I don't think they can dismiss you today's conspiracy theories sax as we've talked about are
01:36:47
tomorrow's piters today's conspiracy theories are tomorrow's piters go ahead Jamal I really think that this is what's
01:36:53
going to scary as if you're as this election kind of rules forward the contrast and compare on the Democratic
01:37:00
side is going to be very Troublesome to The Establishment and I just encourage you to
01:37:05
just just keep sticking to it and telling people what you think freberg any final thoughts as we wrap can I say
01:37:11
one last thing in my defense and I I want to because this is such a great platform what I've always
01:37:19
said to people you know if I'm if I'm promoting misinformation which I'm constantly accused of show me what it is
01:37:27
identify don't just say I'm an inform misinformation promoter show me the piece that you don't agree with or that
01:37:34
you know I I made a false statement I would say that I have not promoted any misinformation if if unless
01:37:42
misinformation is just a euphemism for anything that departs from government orthodoxies every po I have probably the
01:37:50
most robust factchecking operation in North America because I know these attacks are coming so we have 300 over
01:37:58
320 MD Physicians PhD scientists on my Advisory Board who see everything that goes out and everything that I posted on
01:38:07
Instagram was cited or sories for to a government PA database or peer-reviewed publication I don't let anything and by
01:38:15
the way that doesn't mean I won't make a mistake at some point but guess what if
01:38:19
I made a mistake people would point it out and you know what I would do I change it and apolog change your opinion
01:38:26
in the face of new facts exactly I you show me fact that's the only thing that'll change my opinion show me facts
01:38:33
and I will change it so fast but you know you need to show me facts so just on on the competition between you and
01:38:40
Biden for this nomination I want to say that the Kennedy family has been involved in public life for for decades
01:38:46
and many Kennedy has served in public life and I honestly don't remember one time with any candidate who served in
01:38:55
public life where they've been accused of receiving money from a foreign government not once and we're now up to
01:39:03
12 bidens I think who've received a payment you know from foreign governments potentially in this larger
01:39:10
Hunter Biden scandal do you have a point of view on that I mean the fact that it appears that
01:39:16
Hunter Biden and other members of the B and family receive payments from foreign
01:39:20
governments is that how do you interpret that is that something that you think is
01:39:24
fair game in this campaign to talk about I I you know I don't know enough about it David to be able to render judgment
01:39:33
on it I don't know the intricacies of those relationships I I think the Optics are are unfortunate um but uh you know I
01:39:43
would leave it I think it is fair game for people who are looking into it to to criticize and question it I don't know
01:39:49
enough about I'm not in the position to be able to do that all right on that I would just like to say I grew up in a
01:39:57
Catholic household Irish Catholic in Brooklyn on the wall in my grandmother and grandfather's dining room were three
01:40:06
people Bobby Kennedy Robert Kennedy and Jesus Christ it's been an honor to have you on the program and thank you for
01:40:12
giving us two hours of vibrant debate we wish you well and we'd like to have you
01:40:16
on again and perhaps if this platform allows sep for debates and they will not host you on the debates we will here on
01:40:24
the all-in podcast I'll let you go and uh on behalf of all the besties thank you for giving us two hours and deeply
01:40:32
engaging on these topics fantastic thank you I really enjoyed it all right this I think went
01:40:39
spectacularly well let's go around the horn here and get immediate reactions fredberg I want to start with you
01:40:44
because I think you on the science issues maybe held back a little bit and let him speak yeah we didn't have much
01:40:52
of a dialogue with him say we we we all kind of had a few opening statements but
01:40:57
let him kind of speak his mind I don't know we'll see how the episode plays with listeners it was really him having
01:41:05
a platform to speak his mind for the past you know two hours and you know it's interesting I mean obviously he's a
01:41:11
candidate that's challenging the the current sitting president for his own party's
01:41:15
nomination so you know really kind of you know interesting moment to participate in and you know but we did
01:41:22
kind of give the platform to kind of speak his mind I think my observation is this guy Robert clearly has a very deep
01:41:31
rooted anti-establishment energy and that plays through in many of his Points of View anti-establishment
01:41:38
kind of energy I think manifests as both conspiracy theories where you know as people have kind of classified some of
01:41:49
his claims which typically you know invol involves looking at call it correlation
01:41:55
or circumstance but not necessarily having the causality or the tie to demonstrate or or have proof of of point
01:42:03
or or evidence of point and I think that that's really where he trips me up on a
01:42:07
couple of points personally which ones would you say are the points that trip you up most Where Were You Like H I
01:42:13
think the general statement that there are kind of you know embedded interests in government is a good general
01:42:21
statement then when you start to try tie together different kind of correlations
01:42:26
or circumstances and say that's evidence it's not really it it doesn't resonate true with me as someone who who likes to
01:42:32
kind of see empirical truth kind of be demonstrated I think some of these points around we know that pfoas one you
01:42:39
know one of these products one of these chemistries he talked about that's in the environment they are very damaging
01:42:44
to the environment they're very damaging to human health and there are others that he makes claims around that don't
01:42:48
have that same level of evidence but they all get kind of bucketed together that all this stuff is bad that all
01:42:53
nuclear is bad because there you know is a a facility that was built in the 1950s
01:42:59
and 1960s that had some degree of bad engineering and what some might argue isn't necessarily a major hazardous
01:43:06
radioactive leak but has above kind of standards of radiation leak and therefore all nuclear is threatening
01:43:11
those are the sorts of things that kind of trip me up with him that one Tri me up a little bit yeah as
01:43:16
well the nuclear issue the thing that matters to me this is all just [ __ ] talking rambling about social issues and
01:43:22
you you know like what the [ __ ] are we going to do with education and Wars none
01:43:25
of it [ __ ] matters if we cannot solve the debt and budget crisis problem in this country we are running into the
01:43:35
ground the United States isic I know you do and and I think the US is in a Titanic unack that then your
01:43:42
key issue so for me this is the thing that I told you guys I'm focused on with every candidate is how much do you think
01:43:48
about the prioritization of the fiscal the federal budget how do you think about the level and how do you think
01:43:54
about the boundary conditions and it's clear that that's not really a concrete part of his platform nor is it by the
01:43:59
way for any other candidate that I've seen so far so that's kind of where I sit and it's very unpopular chamath
01:44:06
let's have your response here too to opinion I just think that your opinion is an opinion and you present it as this
01:44:13
canonical fact and that's what I have an issue with I just think that's intellectually not accurate so I respect
01:44:19
the fact that you think that that's an issue but I think there's a lot of smart people that would say that's not the
01:44:24
issue that you think it is and there are other issues where did you find yourself
01:44:28
chamath in this process agreeing with him or disagreeing with him all political candidates at some point have a fork in
01:44:37
the road which is that they're going to be a truth teller of their own truth or they're going to be conformist
01:44:48
to talking points to try to offend the least amount of people okay and the first path is much riskier but it
01:44:57
actually has much larger discontinuous outcomes I.E Trump the other path is a good antidote
01:45:05
to the first path when the first path is what's in power and you saw Biden take that
01:45:11
path so for me I don't agree with some of the things that he said in fact there are things like nuclear which I just
01:45:19
think he's wrong about sure but what do I appreciate is that there is a version of his
01:45:26
truth that is researched and reasoned from his own lived experience as well as history and facts and then he's also
01:45:36
willing to say I just don't know enough about it so let me rethink it and then come back to you I thought the comment
01:45:41
about you know school choice was an example right and and I think that that's healthy so on
01:45:47
balance I would rather have candidates in that first bucket which are truth tellers that have the potential to cause
01:45:56
disagreement versus the platers who say nothing and this is where I do agree with freeberg whatever the issues are
01:46:04
that may be important the point is plating doesn't work anymore and you need some kind
01:46:11
of Confrontation on hard topics for there to be any progress now and so I prefer those kinds of people that are
01:46:21
able to draw a hard line agitator non conform and I personally am so I've always been and I have been very
01:46:28
anti-establishment the idea of tearing down all these institutions of power gives me Glee I find it gleeful saxs
01:46:37
when we look at this this incredible you know almost two-hour conversation we had
01:46:41
here I I think we did hold him and force him on C certain issues more than you would normally get an an interview
01:46:48
without being Sensational we didn't lead with vaccines we didn't lead with culture wars we talked about really
01:46:53
important issues where did you find yourself in most agreement with him and where did you find yourself in least
01:46:59
agreement with him well I I want to make sure we see the forest for the trees here because I think you can disagree
01:47:04
with this or that tree or you can get lost down the rabbit hole of some of these very technical scientific debates
01:47:10
but here's the farest is you've got this Sion of wealth and privilege who comes from the most prominent famous
01:47:18
Democratic family and he was set in his life to go become an environmental law who go fight against big corporate
01:47:25
environmental polluters and somewhere along the way he realized it wasn't just big corporations was the problem it was
01:47:32
the the agencies the government agencies that were supposed to be regulating them
01:47:35
and he realized that there was a revolving door going on between industry and these agencies and so he ended up
01:47:41
litigating not just against big companies but against government agencies I think that's a really
01:47:46
interesting place for a candidate to come from and what you heard him say or what what I took away from it is that he
01:47:54
has a very sophisticated critique of regulatory capture and it goes beyond just the environmental area it goes also
01:48:02
to Big Pharma and it goes to the military-industrial complex when he's talking about all these unnecessary Wars
01:48:09
that the United States has gotten into and who can doubt that after we spent 20 years and8 trillion bogged down in
01:48:16
Forever wars in the Middle East who can doubt that the military industrial complex has played a malign role in our
01:48:23
foreign policy and we've got you know all these generals when they retire from the Pentagon they go right onto the
01:48:29
boards of these defense contractors so there's enough right about his critique that I think you can't dismiss it you
01:48:36
can't just say this guy's a conspiracy theorist or a nut he's saying too many things that I know to be true and
01:48:42
there's a lot of other areas where I don't know what the truth is but he is making I'd say sensible arguments and
01:48:48
he's presenting data and he's asking you to challenge him on the data so in event
01:48:53
I think he's got this very interesting critique of regulatory capture what he's basically saying is that we have a
01:49:00
ruling Elite in this country that is managing the country for its own benefit and that is screwing the middle class
01:49:06
and that critique actually is very similar to what Trump and disantis and people on the right are saying the only
01:49:12
difference is that I think people on the right are blaming ideology they're saying that the ruling Elite is
01:49:17
following this woke ideology what Kennedy is saying that is that the ruling class is is following the money
01:49:23
but you know what they could both be right I think these critiques are very compatible so look you might disagree
01:49:30
with this or that part of it but I think that this overall critique the forest you know forget about the trees I think
01:49:36
this Forest could find purchase with the electorate because I think people just feel like there's something true about
01:49:43
this what I will say is this is exactly how Trump got elected and there was a great piece I think it was in the
01:49:48
Atlantic when he was running the first time around that talked a lot about the psychology of his appeal that he comes
01:49:56
from wealth he comes from the system but he is the anti-stem system product that
01:50:02
he came out of this machine of wealth this machine of Industry this machine of influence and he said this entire system
01:50:10
needs to be torn down and if by the way the psychology that they highlighted and
01:50:14
and it speaks to Trump not necessarily to Robert but what they highlighted was if you look historically at the rise of
01:50:20
authoritarian regimes um coming out of democracies it's typically the folks that come from an influence of from a
01:50:27
point of influence and from the point of privilege and power and they then decided they wanted to tear down the
01:50:33
system that produced them and you trust the bully that comes out of the machine versus The Outsider who doesn't really
01:50:39
know the machine and doesn't really have access and that's partially why I think
01:50:43
maybe he has a shot at being the anti-biden alternative more so perhaps in this go around than Trump is look he
01:50:51
he's not a bully and he's he's not going to tear everything down listen I and I've heard him on other interviews and
01:50:57
what he said is we need a peaceful Revolution we need to reorganize these government agencies so he's not saying
01:51:02
like so maybe that's why he does win over Trump right maybe he becomes the less extreme he's not the bully but he's
01:51:08
like I know how to dismantle and and you know are quite they're incredible Free Speech supporting the rule of law
01:51:16
burgeoning the middle class I mean these are not things that are really controversial in the end they're good
01:51:22
moral very morally grounded I think my concern is just the framework for how you kind
01:51:28
of rationalize and make decisions if you're allowing kind of influence in uendo and correlation be kind of the
01:51:37
driving force instead of having you know make sure you just at least gather and and sort the empirical evidence to make
01:51:44
those decisions that's what he's doing he just reached a different conclusion than you yeah he's just exactly cuz he's
01:51:49
saying that the other conclusion is just the Orthodox conclusion which is nothing
01:51:52
to here yeah by the way I'm not an orthodox guy and I'm not like following orxy folks have said you're pushing
01:52:01
RFK because you think he's a weaker candidate against the Republicans your response no I don't necessarily think
01:52:09
he'd be a weaker candidate for all the reasons we're talking about I think he'd be preferable to to Biden in a lot of
01:52:13
people's views so so look for me this is not like partisan I just think he's really interesting I think he is a
01:52:20
breath of fresh air I think there are many aspects of his critique of our system and the corruption of our ruling
01:52:27
class that hit home I think regulatory capture is a huge issue I think a lot of these agencies do need to be reorganized
01:52:34
well it is the invisible hand that we don't know how to quantify well in all these other discussions that we have and
01:52:40
he does put his finger on this really ugly uncomfortable truth which is there's a cloistered set of insiders for
01:52:46
which there's a revolving door between power and money and that's going to be very awkward for a small small number of
01:52:53
people to hear that message as he gets more attention which is probably why the media industrial complex will not you
01:53:00
know will do his best to prevent that message from getting out there the media is going to block this guy at every
01:53:07
angle because when he said podcast could play a huge role just like in 2016 social media broke through and played a
01:53:12
huge role I think in 2024 I think that podcast could break the way that unorthodox candidates
01:53:20
get their message out could Cates get message out because if after 2 hours of this you don't want to learn more about
01:53:26
him or you're not going to consider him more fully I think it's impossible because he's so well spoken as you said
01:53:32
he's got a moral compass he's got a track record and he's got critique what he isn't saying is he's not just
01:53:38
throwing bombs and there may be things that you can debate with him about his interpretation of what he looks at you
01:53:48
know and that's very fair criticism I think but his critique is well reasoned and so you have to unpack the nuances of
01:53:54
it to understand why he got to it and also to try to prove him wrong that is very powerful because it's not just him
01:54:02
randomly screaming about how things aren't working no and and I the moments I thought were very important here and
01:54:09
especially for the listeners who are listening who are making important decisions and want to maybe change the
01:54:13
political system there were multiple times on the issue of trans surgery and I'm going to be very nuanced here with
01:54:19
the permission of the parents he said I need to do more research on it on freeberg challenging him about spending
01:54:26
spending he said I need to I need to give that some more thought but broadly speaking you know I think we can take
01:54:30
money out of the military budget and billion dollar planes that don't fly in the rain there were many moments where
01:54:35
he he conceded I I need to give that some more thought I need to be thoughtful about that that's not
01:54:40
something that you typically hear but in a platform like this with you know the Nuance that we've created on this
01:54:48
platform having discussions and the audience also being nuanced and having depth we know the fans of this podcast
01:54:55
are in a lot of positions of power I'm sure 100% or very high percentage of the people who listen to this podcast
01:55:00
actually vote and are very influential within their own circles I think this kind of platform we have a very deep
01:55:07
discussion and somebody can say you know what I need to go deeper on that and think about it when I asked him about
01:55:12
weapons in Taiwan and then I said hey why wouldn't you give an answer that you would defend Taiwan Biden gave it said
01:55:18
well I don't want to tip my cards you wouldn't want to do that that's a really good answer by the way the official the
01:55:22
official policy of the United States towards Taiwan is strategic ambiguity which means we don't say whether we'll
01:55:27
defend it it depends on the circumstances and and Biden when he he's now said multiple times that he would
01:55:33
defend it and his own staff walked it back because they said we're not changing strategic ambiguity so yeah I
01:55:39
mean the policy he said in that case actually is the United States policy so let me ask you guys a question if he won
01:55:45
the Democratic nomination and he's up against Trump who do you vote for obviously at this point
01:55:53
yeah of course RFK and I think sax would have a hard time he wouldn't say who he's voted for previously I think sax
01:55:58
would vote RFK is not gonna say are you are you gonna say or no saak doesn't like to say he's justan I'm reserving
01:56:05
judgment on the general until I know who both candidates are okay he won't even sax won't even tell us who vot who he
01:56:10
voted for I would love for RFK Jr to be on the ballot and have that choice for sure and and it's possible I would it's
01:56:17
possible I would vote for him it depends who the other person is is it really CU
01:56:20
you wouldn't even tell us who you vot for or if you voted in the last election well that's my right Jason I don't have
01:56:25
to tell you I just think it's it's intellectually dishonest since you talk about politics so much that I do I think
01:56:31
you should tell us who you voted I talk about issues how I decide to balance those issues because every
01:56:38
candidate is a complex mix of issues that's ultimately my decision somebody who injects everything to not just say
01:56:46
inject it I'm not the one injecting so to follow up on the question I asked I would love to see Donald Trump come on
01:56:52
the show and give him an opportunity to have a conversation and see if folks can
01:56:57
have a different point of view coming out of that as well as Joe Biden and maybe some of the other candidates
01:57:03
running for the Republican nomination and I want to see if the the points of focus for us can you know maybe uh
01:57:13
match up with one or more of these candidates so far n will come on right with think yeah so Nikki Hal's in and
01:57:22
then Trump will do it and then Biden will not Trump will do it I think Trump would do it because he somebody would I
01:57:28
mean he had he had he did something with Bart stol right Jason do you wanna do you want me to do the announcement on
01:57:33
the The Summit oh please okay so we are confirmed and signed on our venue and so we are confirmed for Allin
01:57:46
Summit 2023 in Los Angeles September 10th through 12th secure the bag baby let's go we'll put out the um and I
01:57:56
think it's going to be really exciting because we'll have an opportunity to at this point in the year we have a lot of
01:58:03
time to put together a really high quality agenda for conversations we each want to have with really amazing people
01:58:09
so I'm excited about that we've kind of started to put together some ideas on what we want to talk about who we want
01:58:15
to invite to have those conversations with us put out some invites so very good job by the way and you'll be
01:58:19
leading your lead this is your AI Summit so so I'm I'm handing everything off to
01:58:24
you I'm helping with the parties basically but you're driving congratulations your team is exceptional
01:58:28
I just want to let the audience know we're doing we're doing it together and I'm I'm I'm stepping back and letting
01:58:34
you drive I consider this like your I care very deeply about content and I want to you know make sure that we
01:58:39
chance to have yeah the experience and have a chance to have the conversations we want to have with the folks we want
01:58:44
to talk with so nothing could be better than you building on top of the first one and then we just keep going from
01:58:49
there chamath and sax if they want to build on it from there there'll be three this is what everybody wants to know is
01:58:53
tickets there's going to be three ticket tiers there'll still be a VIP one for 7500 that gets you into the dinners oh
01:58:58
sorry yeah that that's that's an important point the VIP experience this year we got some feedback on the last go
01:59:03
around um that we needed to make sure there was a degree of differentiation so the VIP experience will include special
01:59:09
VIP dinners early access to the theater gift bags special sections during the parties so hopefully it elevates the
01:59:16
experience a bit for folks that are able to pay the higher ticket fee which actually helps support the whole program
01:59:22
no bottle service I mean bottle service if you bring your card but hopefully as a as a way to kind of support the
01:59:27
overall program and keep the cost down for everyone else and then it's $1,500 general admission pass which includes
01:59:32
access to the parties and then we'll still have the scholarship class can I tell you guys a funny story yeah when I
01:59:37
joined the ownership group that bought the Warriors I heard a rumor which was that when we were competing it was us
01:59:44
versus Ellison to buy the Warriors and Ellison had an idea I don't know if this is true or not this is what I heard that
01:59:51
he had a he had had a idea for a new stadium and he's like he wanted to make it an ultra VIP stadium and so there's
01:59:58
only 5,000 seats and they all were like Singapore Airlines first class seats so you go into the stadium to watch but it'
02:00:07
be like everybody would be like up close and you could touch and outside they also had a thousand guillotines so you
02:00:13
could just yeah I mean it's hard enough for a family to go see I don't know if that's true or not but I I thought it
02:00:18
was very funny tickets are crazy expensive now it's like cra hundreds of dollars for no bleed seats for the
02:00:24
dictator Troth poopaa for David saaks who set up this episode and fredberg the Sultan of
02:00:33
science uh we hope you enjoy this it's the first of many to come we will still be doing regular dockets we might have
02:00:38
to go to two episodes a week on weeks like this who knows but give us your feedback share the show and we'll see
02:00:44
you all at the all in Summit let your winners ride Rainman d [Music] and in said we open source it to the
02:00:57
fans and they've just gone crazy with it love [Music] youen besties are that's my dog taking
02:01:15
driveways oh man we should all just get a room and just have one big huge orgy cuz they're
02:01:21
all usess it's like this like sexual tension that they just need to release Som we need to get merch
02:01:36
[Music] our going in