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E77: Tech work culture, crypto regulation, stablecoins, $NFLX & more w/ Coinbase CEO Brian Armstrong

April 23, 2022 / 01:04:39

This episode features Brian Armstrong, CEO of Coinbase, discussing company culture, employee activism, and the regulatory landscape of cryptocurrency. Key topics include the impact of a focused work culture, the challenges of managing employee expectations, and the evolving regulatory environment for crypto.

Brian Armstrong shares his experience implementing a policy at Coinbase that discourages political discussions at work to maintain focus on the company's mission. He explains the challenges faced during this transition, including media scrutiny and employee turnover, but ultimately views it as a positive change for productivity.

The conversation also touches on the broader implications for Silicon Valley companies as they navigate employee activism and the balance between maintaining a strong company culture and addressing employee concerns. Armstrong emphasizes the importance of clear communication and setting expectations from the outset.

Additionally, Armstrong discusses the current regulatory environment for cryptocurrencies, highlighting the need for clarity and the potential for innovation within a well-structured regulatory framework. He addresses the challenges posed by different regulatory bodies and the importance of protecting consumers while fostering growth.

The episode concludes with a discussion on the future of cryptocurrency, the role of stablecoins, and the potential for decentralized systems to drive social change.

TL;DR

Brian Armstrong discusses Coinbase's work culture, employee activism, and the regulatory landscape for cryptocurrency.

Episode

1:04:39

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brian armstrong what's up bro

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what's up how are you good to see you

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it's good to see you as well

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yeah jason just pinged me yesterday and

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he's like why don't you just come on as

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a guest randomly and i was like okay

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great let's do it it's so good i'm

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really excited to hear what j cal's

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intro is for you oh man yeah you guys

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keep you keep getting watered on

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this ride

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[Music]

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[Music]

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hey everybody welcome to episode 77 of

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the all in podcast less than 30 days for

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the sold out all in summit

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and uh there's a wait list but uh sadly

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i don't think we're gonna get to anybody

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on the wait list

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we've got a great great episode for you

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i thought i'd bring a bestie guestie in

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but not tell my bestie so we'll see if

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they can figure out who's coming on the

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pod today

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uh but let's get the intros over with

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he's investing in sas at different

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stages coming off a miami bender for the

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ages doing shots with her boy and

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vanilla ice the rayman is back

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he's twice as nice david sacks everybody

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how are you sir how was your adventures

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uh with vanilla ice yeah i'm still here

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you're still here and so vanilla ice uh

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that costs sixteen hundred dollars to

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get him to show up

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what is cost to show up for a party

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that's about 10k i think it's about 10

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to 20. no

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a little bit more really a little more

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and did you go on stage and do ice ice

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baby with him i didn't but uh there's

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some like teenage mutant ninja turtles

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type dancing around with him

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whatever it was interesting it was

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interesting people liked it it was fun

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it was fun oh very nice very nice and

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you're still in miami for uh

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whatever tech week okay

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so he won't eat your meat but i'll take

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your mdma he's very interested in your

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dna when he's in the lab he's in heaven

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he hasn't been the same since that rave

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in 1997 the lord of the laboratory the

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sultan of science david freeburg

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how are you sir that was my favorite one

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i like that one yeah

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you peaked in 97 yeah at about 2am you

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were peaking at about 2 a.m did you say

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he doesn't want your meat but he wants

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your mdma yes he wouldn't eat your meat

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but

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you

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shout out to uh producer nick who really

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crushed it this week ah his bank

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this one is too funny

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it's hard to keep it together for these

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sometimes this bank account would make a

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crown prince jealous his knitwork

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collection is overzealous when he's on

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cnbc he makes a scene the last time he

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did leg day was 2019.

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the supreme leader of spock's the

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dictator himself

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i've been actually spending a lot of

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time working out on my legs really i

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have been working on shoulders and chest

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and my legs have always been diesel i

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will be doing a shirt off selfie this

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summer jkl it looks like you have not uh

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bought new shirts since you lost all the

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weight because that shirt looks about

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five sides too big i bought this one

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halfway through

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the weight loss and now it's still too

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big so i got another slimmer i got the

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slim fit no i got the normal fit and

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then i got the slim fit from peak to now

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you've lost what like 50 pounds 213

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pounds was my peak like four years ago

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and i was

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167 168 the other day yeah so whatever

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that is 45 pounds it's awesome something

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i feel incredible i started running

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again and you know i did 40 days of

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skiing this year and i'm gonna take up

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kite surfing i think this summer i want

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another sport to do you know in the

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summers are the people around you

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annoyed at your increased energy levels

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yes people who work for me are annoyed

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uh i'm sleeping better uh everything's

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just going better i highly recommend

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everybody

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you know just try to lose some weight

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a lot of options out there for you

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including munique all right we have a

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very special bestie guestie today

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he's a lean mean crypto machine who sort

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of looks like mr clean if you need some

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tokens you know who to call

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satoshi has his picture hanging on his

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wall his nft game is never lacking if

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you talk about politics at work he might

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send you packing the king of coins the

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tycoon of tokens who is he brian

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armstrong riot armstrong armstrong you

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guys got it brian armstrong's with us

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hey brian how are you what's up y'all

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you could have gone

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vitalik uh at the first part but we

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became brian by the office part anyway

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welcome to the show brian uh we've

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obviously talked about you a whole bunch

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and you've been on this week in startups

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and i think you know while the fell is

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here uh but thanks for for joining the

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pod thanks for having me this is awesome

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i i listen to your show every week oh

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thanks for that so i guess you know the

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the topic we all have talked about a

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whole bunch is um

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work and keeping people focused at work

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you took a very bold step which toby at

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chopin i think followed and you said

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listen if you're coming to work our

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mission is crypto

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can we stop talking about every other

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thing in the world and and just stay

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focused on that and i think that was

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maybe was that a year and a half ago

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you did that

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everybody wants to know uh how that

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worked out for the company so maybe you

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could tell us what it was like to go

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through that

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because i mean you were a target for for

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a period of time we all thought seems

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reasonable

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and then how has that actually impacted

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day-to-day life for the people who

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decided to opt into working at a

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single focused coinbase yeah so i would

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say you know short term it was quite a

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painful transition i think it created a

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lot of consternation there was you know

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some folks in the media decided to go

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call a bunch of people who left the

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company and you know write hit pieces

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and all that kind of thing and frankly

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you know about five percent of the

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company opted into the exit taxes

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package so there was some teams that

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were short-handed a lot of people had to

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work extra time to fill in the gaps but

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long term i think it turned out to be an

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incredibly positive decision for the

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company i do think there's a lot of

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companies in silicon valley right now

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and probably elsewhere is that

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you know the ceos and the management

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team almost feel like they're being held

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hostage by the employees and i feel for

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some of these organizations you know

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sundar probably has an incredibly

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difficult job right now we saw that that

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video from microsoft i think last year

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with with satya and kind of was with

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people talking about their hair color

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and stuff and

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they don't feel like that they can

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really

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lean in and move the company in the

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direction they want and they're they're

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fearful of kind of all these internal

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dynamics so

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you know i think there's probably a

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better way to do it than what i did

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which is if you're starting a company

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today just make that clear up front i

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didn't make it clear up front and so the

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company culture started to diverge and

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drift and i had to kind of realign it

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which was which was a painful process if

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if i was doing it over again i'd

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probably just set that as the

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expectation up front and then there

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wouldn't be this you know

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public awkward realignment but yeah i

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think i'm i'm really glad that i did it

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i think coinbase has been very

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productive since then and we've been

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able to attract a lot of the best and

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brightest people from some of these

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other companies that are like i don't

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want to be in those companies anymore i

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want to work at a company where we just

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focus on the work and the mission

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because that's actually important so i'd

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say it's been positive brian i've always

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talked about this as being like the

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difference between a hard culture and a

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soft culture where hard cultures are

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companies that

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really define what they do and what they

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don't do and what they spend time on and

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what they don't spend time on and

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sometimes what you don't spend time on

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can relate to products sometimes it can

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relate to things outside or

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externalities to the business

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do you think that that's become kind of

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a trend where

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you know soft culture

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in silicon valley is more about like

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appeasing

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a very fickle employee base and as a

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result you kind of aren't as clear about

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what you're not going to talk about and

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are going to talk about and suddenly the

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troops rule the day and things get kind

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of sidetracked and productivity goes

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down i mean can you talk a little bit

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about what you've seen

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you know with other cultures around the

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valley and how that's kind of affecting

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work and what employees are choosing to

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go to and not go to yeah so i think you

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know ben horowitz always talked about

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like wartime ceo peacetime ceo and

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frankly you know i'm kind of a conflict

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avoidant person right i never thought of

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myself as like wartime ceo we're just

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like we're all going in this direction

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let's go go go you know i never really

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thought of myself like that but

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i think what i'm trying to do now is

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find the happy medium between these two

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so you the company should have a really

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ambitious mission and then i think you

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as a ceo you do have to

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say no to things which are off track

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from that you do have to part ways with

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people who are not helping raise the

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talent bar in the company and

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so in some ways you have to be i guess

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hard in that sense but i don't think

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it's it's not like you know we're only

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here to make money and it's like it's

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bonus time or you're out or whatever

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it's like we actually have a much softer

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culture than that i think in silicon

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valley which is most of the missions of

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these companies are trying to do great

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humanitarian efforts and they're trying

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to improve the biggest problems in the

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world

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and so people sign up for those because

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they want to have a real impact

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and you know we take time to like go for

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exec off sites and we walk in nature and

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you know we have like coaching we do all

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this touchy-feely stuff so i think it's

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kind of a mix of both is the right

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balance i don't think of myself as like

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you know a wall street hedge fund or

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like the most touchy-feely culture you

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can imagine why do you think companies

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now have sort of veered into this place

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where they have to kind of appease these

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fringes on either side

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did you spend time trying to figure out

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like how did we evolve there from just

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being mission focused to having to deal

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with all this other stuff yeah i mean

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one theory i have on this is that in

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silicon valley especially pre-pandemic

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we were all

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it was so competitive to get talent

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right you know google and facebook they

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were just kind of one-upping each other

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on like higher and higher salaries and

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so i i know as a ceo of a company that

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was rising at that time i felt

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incredible scarcity like i had people

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leave to get out who got better offers

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and it was like a real issue and so i

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was doing anything i could to retain

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people and keep them

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and so if if an employee said hey i want

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you know

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another flavor of water in the kitchen

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or whatever i was like okay maybe we

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should do it right but i think you know

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during the pandemic we removed we moved

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to remote first as a culture the the

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talent like the talent we could get

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opened up by 100x of people all over the

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world who were really hungry and like

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frankly thankful for these jobs

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and that actually changed the scarcity

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mindset a little bit to say hey you know

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if you don't want to be here that's fine

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we can we have other people we can go

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recruit and hire in who really are going

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to value it that's probably just one

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piece of it it's a much more complex

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issue than that i think one other one

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other thing is that

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you know like google and facebook i

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think kind of made this a common trend

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in the valley where

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companies would host these open mic q

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and a's on every friday or every two

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weeks or whatever and it was almost like

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a town hall it felt like a democracy

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right and in a democracy like the leader

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you know works for the people they're

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elected by the people

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um but what got very awkward was at

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these open mic q as it became you know

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this kind of like hostile thing of like

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how can we make the person squirm and

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let's ask them these difficult societal

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issue questions that aren't actually

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related to the company and what we're

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all building and

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you know i think that was actually a

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mistake in silicon valley

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we've since gotten rid of these open mic

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q as because it really encourages people

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i'd say one we were like 150 200 people

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everyone was on the same page everyone

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was asking good questions once we got to

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like 500 700 people it started to feel

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like there was a little bit of an us

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versus them and then you know the

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questions got very off track and i i

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realized at a certain point this is not

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a democracy

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i want everyone's input i'm not going to

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rule like with an iron fist but

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ultimately you know i'm the ceo i need i

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need to help guide this company in one

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direction and force the hard decisions

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not everyone's going to like them so

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we're not going to allow people to do

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grandstanding open mic stuff there's

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just a little bit of a risk for that you

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know 99 of people don't do it but even

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one person does it and it kind of

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creates the snowball effect so we got

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rid of the open mics people can still

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submit questions but they're

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there nobody else can see them we read

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them ahead of the q a and if there's a

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good theme in the questions we address

00:11:38

it but you can't like grandstand with an

00:11:40

open mic i saw this um so it was in

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twitter nick maybe you can find it but

00:11:44

it was like this general that had

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commanded all of these different

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battalions and he was talking about

00:11:50

what it was like in all the different

00:11:52

theaters in which he's operated and he

00:11:54

basically said you know eighty percent

00:11:56

of the men and women that served for me

00:11:57

were just absolutely incredible you

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could always rely on them a hundred

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percent of the time they were a hundred

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percent aligned

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and then he said there was fifteen

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percent that was wishy-washy and what

00:12:09

they were looking for was how you

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managed and dealt with the five percent

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and the five percent of folks were

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always trying to push the boundaries and

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try to figure out where the escape valve

00:12:20

was or where the exception was or you

00:12:22

know whether they would be grandstanding

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or whether they tried to

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break a rule

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and he said his entire energy was

00:12:29

focused on keeping those folks extremely

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focused and on point or out

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because that was what solved for the

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fifteen percent because the 80 would be

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fine but if you didn't deal with the 5

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the 15 would go crazy and then the 80

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would get dejected and it just kind of

00:12:44

the whole thing would rot and it was a

00:12:46

really interesting reminder that there's

00:12:47

these people that come into these

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companies

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almost with the desire to see these

00:12:52

companies go sideways or just waste

00:12:53

their time which is completely

00:12:55

counterintuitive because you think you

00:12:56

join for the mission

00:12:58

but they don't all the time

00:13:00

and to be fair you

00:13:02

i think told people listen you you could

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as a group of people off hours create

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your own

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you know uh dinner party and talk about

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whatever topics you want this is just

00:13:13

when i'm paying you to come to work for

00:13:15

those eight hours

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you know on the company servers if

00:13:18

you're using slack or whatever you know

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communication platform you're using

00:13:22

let's just stay focused on getting the

00:13:23

work done so this could be a viable

00:13:25

enterprise but you were fine with people

00:13:28

if they wanted to self-organize and do

00:13:30

that on their own time correct you

00:13:32

weren't saying you can't have political

00:13:33

beliefs you can't care not care about

00:13:36

blm or some right-winger that was one of

00:13:38

the biggest um sort of misnomers or miss

00:13:42

characterizations yeah exactly

00:13:44

deliberate mischaracterizations about

00:13:46

the policy is that it somehow silenced

00:13:48

people or prevented them from

00:13:50

you know taking positions on issues or

00:13:52

donating to causes they cared about the

00:13:54

policy never said that it just said that

00:13:56

while we're in the office together on

00:13:58

coinbase time we're going to engage in

00:13:59

coinbase's mission and avoid fractious

00:14:02

debates that divide us

00:14:04

yeah that's right

00:14:06

and there's a time for those debates and

00:14:08

it just might not i think a lot of this

00:14:10

has to do with slack i'd be totally

00:14:11

honest

00:14:12

yeah when people are in a slack room and

00:14:15

they're frustrated and people can have

00:14:16

valid frustrations like there are things

00:14:17

in the world that are horrible and yeah

00:14:19

you want to talk about it and yeah you

00:14:20

build friendships at work it's

00:14:21

completely understandable that people

00:14:23

would want to blow off steam and but

00:14:25

just people have to look at slack as not

00:14:27

an aol chat room it's not reddit it's

00:14:30

not aol chat maybe you could talk a

00:14:31

little bit about electronic

00:14:32

communications and then i think david

00:14:33

has a follow-up yes i agree with you

00:14:35

slack i think

00:14:36

you know it's an amazing tool but it

00:14:38

does start to turn into social media

00:14:40

once you get more than i don't know 500

00:14:41

people in a room or a thousand people a

00:14:44

lot of ceos i've been talking to we're

00:14:45

all trying to figure this out because we

00:14:47

still think slack is a net positive to

00:14:49

productivity but it has a huge negative

00:14:51

in terms of just both distracting people

00:14:53

with lots of things popping up all the

00:14:54

time but also these kind of social media

00:14:57

flame wars that emerge and mob like

00:14:59

behavior so some of the things i mean

00:15:00

we've been trying is for instance if we

00:15:02

get any kind of a slacker room that has

00:15:04

say more than 500 or a thousand people

00:15:06

we'll often try to limit it so only you

00:15:08

know you can you have to be a vp or

00:15:10

level 9 and above can only post in there

00:15:12

and other otherwise it's read only so

00:15:14

we're trying to you know dunbar's number

00:15:16

is 150 people right you're trying to

00:15:17

think who who can you remember

00:15:18

everyone's name and have some sort of

00:15:20

group affinity with them

00:15:21

and any too much above dunbar's number

00:15:23

we try to like cap it so it's a

00:15:25

read-only chat room but i think these

00:15:27

tools need to keep evolving and i hope

00:15:29

some i know there's a couple startups

00:15:30

you all might have funded some of them

00:15:31

um that are working on this yeah there's

00:15:33

an actual neat feature you can do in

00:15:35

slack now where like that level 9 person

00:15:38

can post and everybody else can post in

00:15:40

the thread like you can reply to the

00:15:42

thread but the opening salvos and thread

00:15:44

have to be started by somebody in that

00:15:46

sort of group so but slack definitely

00:15:48

needs to double down on this i also

00:15:50

think they put that random room in there

00:15:52

and you put the random room it's like

00:15:53

basically waving the flag like it's

00:15:55

random put stuff in there i think you

00:15:57

got to delete that if you're running i

00:15:58

tell all startups delete the random room

00:16:00

and tell people do not post memes and

00:16:02

jokes david you had to follow up one

00:16:03

thing i was going to say is so brian i

00:16:05

agree with everything you said the the

00:16:06

one place maybe where i would

00:16:09

nitpick in a way that gives you a little

00:16:10

more credit is you found a coinbase back

00:16:12

in 2012 right yeah so if you had created

00:16:15

this policy on day one i don't think you

00:16:18

or anybody could have predicted

00:16:20

that these issues would arise the way

00:16:22

they have i remember 2012 was the year i

00:16:24

sold my company to microsoft we never

00:16:26

had to deal with any of this stuff and

00:16:27

we were using we didn't have slack back

00:16:29

then we were using yammer very open

00:16:31

culture people could communicate on

00:16:32

anything we never had

00:16:34

sort of

00:16:35

hyper activist employees the word woke

00:16:38

didn't even exist yet

00:16:40

and um it just wasn't an issue so it

00:16:43

would have required you i think to see

00:16:44

ahead so many years

00:16:46

and i think what's happened is over the

00:16:48

last several years there's been this

00:16:49

drift towards

00:16:51

you know employee activism inside these

00:16:53

companies i don't think it's coming from

00:16:54

both sides of the political spectrum to

00:16:56

be honest i think it's coming from the

00:16:58

sort of hyper woke employees and they

00:17:00

engage in petitions and letter writing

00:17:02

campaigns and threats of boycotts and

00:17:05

they sort of hector and mao mao these

00:17:07

ceos to basically give in to them and

00:17:10

we've seen it at apple the way that the

00:17:11

apple was pressured to fire antonio

00:17:13

garcia martinez and they gave in and now

00:17:15

they have a letter writing campaign

00:17:16

every month and you just saw it in

00:17:18

florida i think bob um what's the name

00:17:21

of bob chapter business

00:17:23

i don't think he's going to survive the

00:17:24

year after what just happened at disney

00:17:26

and it's because he gave in to the

00:17:28

employees took sides against the you

00:17:30

know governor in florida and the

00:17:31

legislature and they just ripped away

00:17:34

disney special privileges in florida you

00:17:36

saw it at netflix where ted sarandos was

00:17:40

sort of

00:17:41

malmowed by these employees who want to

00:17:43

cancel dave chappelle he ultimately

00:17:44

stuck by chappelle but only after

00:17:46

groveling

00:17:47

to these employees and so i think we're

00:17:49

seeing these issues did not exist even

00:17:52

five years ago i would say and

00:17:54

i think the reason why the coinbase

00:17:56

story is so relevant to a broader

00:17:59

audience and what you did with your

00:18:01

policy is so relevant is i just think

00:18:03

every company is going to have to make a

00:18:04

decision sooner or later or on where

00:18:07

they stand do you give in to these

00:18:09

petitions and mobs and boycotts do you

00:18:12

allow unlimited activism inside the four

00:18:15

walls of your company or you take some

00:18:17

sort of more neutral stance where you

00:18:19

say listen we're all going to leave our

00:18:21

politics to the door so we can

00:18:22

effectively work together on the

00:18:23

company's mission i think every company

00:18:25

eventually is going to have to either be

00:18:28

coinbase or be apple you're gonna have

00:18:30

to be coinbase or be disney you're

00:18:32

either gonna have to give in to the mob

00:18:34

and suffer the consequences or you take

00:18:37

the short-term pain of doing what brian

00:18:39

did

00:18:40

and you basically realign everyone

00:18:42

around the mission and a year later

00:18:43

you're very happy with where you are the

00:18:45

good thing with netflix and disney

00:18:47

though is that they're going to be very

00:18:48

clear examples of the business impact of

00:18:52

getting distracted

00:18:53

and i think that you know brian took

00:18:55

leadership

00:18:57

but the business impact at least from

00:18:58

the outside looking in was not really

00:19:00

measurable obviously he felt that the

00:19:02

team felt it whatever they did and that

00:19:03

business is working

00:19:05

but it wasn't done as a public company

00:19:07

pre and post so the counterfactual is

00:19:09

hard to measure in the case of disney

00:19:10

and netflix it's really clear to measure

00:19:13

right meaning

00:19:14

in all of this confusion netflix has

00:19:16

completely botched their business model

00:19:19

in all of this fighting now internally

00:19:21

inside of disney not only are they going

00:19:23

to lose essentially a fiefdom inside of

00:19:25

florida but it's going to have

00:19:27

repercussions with respect to taxes with

00:19:29

respect to debt with respect to the

00:19:30

quality of the service they can deploy

00:19:32

and that will eventually flow through

00:19:34

the business and that will be measurable

00:19:35

by investors and i think david

00:19:37

uh i think probably what i think which

00:19:39

is a slighter

00:19:41

sort of more modified version of what

00:19:42

you just said is in the next few

00:19:44

quarters i think ceos will actually be

00:19:47

better equipped to numerically point to

00:19:50

why taking brian's path is the value

00:19:53

creating path for shareholders and for

00:19:55

stakeholders

00:19:56

and the cost of getting distracted quote

00:19:59

unquote can be really expensive if you

00:20:02

if you are a for-profit company and you

00:20:05

also have the option to run your company

00:20:07

and say you know what we care about this

00:20:09

issue a whole bunch we really care about

00:20:10

human rights here we really care about

00:20:12

communications and freedom of speech and

00:20:15

i'm gonna run twitter as a freedom of

00:20:17

speech company and everybody has to

00:20:20

align behind that if you believe in

00:20:21

censoring this is not the right company

00:20:23

for you if you believe in policing

00:20:24

speech or you're uncomfortable with

00:20:27

uncomfortable speech uh or speech that

00:20:29

makes you feel uncomfortable you don't

00:20:30

have to work at twitter so it's not like

00:20:33

you have to

00:20:34

you know do what brian did and say hey

00:20:36

we're just you got to decide on this

00:20:37

you're going to have to make a decision

00:20:39

and be international about it i think

00:20:40

it's the higher order bet no my i was

00:20:41

just going to say my only point is in

00:20:42

the absence of intentionality jason

00:20:44

you'll slip into one realm or the other

00:20:46

and not really know what you're trying

00:20:47

to do i agree with you and my only point

00:20:50

is that you'll be able to measure the

00:20:51

impact of unintentionally slipping and

00:20:53

sliding around yeah versus picking a

00:20:55

course and sticking to it let me ask you

00:20:57

guys a question if you're an individual

00:21:00

and you want to affect social change

00:21:03

where is the forum in the theater that

00:21:06

you think you would go to first you

00:21:08

spend most of your time at work

00:21:10

and um maybe you don't have as much free

00:21:13

time to go march and protest in the

00:21:14

streets and if you did no one would pay

00:21:16

attention to you there anyway

00:21:18

so saks like i know that you'll probably

00:21:20

have a point of view on this but like if

00:21:22

you're

00:21:22

giving a 19 year old who has a strong

00:21:25

point of view or 25 year old who has a

00:21:27

strong point of view about something

00:21:28

that they want to see change in society

00:21:31

what's the right forum for them to have

00:21:32

their protest and to make their voice

00:21:34

heard i think that

00:21:36

companies are a great change agent i

00:21:39

think we all do being in silicon valley

00:21:41

creating startups we all believe that

00:21:42

startups are a great way to change the

00:21:43

world those startups have missions

00:21:45

brian's company has a mission around

00:21:47

crypto and ex and um expanding

00:21:50

democratizing access to the financial

00:21:51

system based on crypto elon has a

00:21:53

company that is accelerating the world

00:21:55

towards sustainable transport and

00:21:58

sustainable energy

00:21:59

he wants to make where i equip a little

00:22:01

bit with what jason said about free

00:22:03

speech i think elon wants to make free

00:22:05

speech restore its place back in

00:22:07

twitter's mission so it's not like a

00:22:09

separate thing it's actually like should

00:22:11

be very core to what they do i think

00:22:13

that there's a mission-driven company

00:22:15

out there

00:22:16

for any young person who cares about

00:22:20

that issue right and if there's not if

00:22:22

there's not a for-profit vehicle there's

00:22:24

a 501 you can go join a nominee or star

00:22:26

wars or start one exactly

00:22:28

donate money to a cause you have the

00:22:31

whole weekend you got me you can write a

00:22:32

blog post what i don't think would work

00:22:34

is when you have people who don't who

00:22:36

aren't really mission driven their

00:22:38

mission is whatever the current thing is

00:22:40

and so they're just kind of like

00:22:42

oscillating from the the one the cur you

00:22:46

know from one current thing to the next

00:22:47

current yes and every three months

00:22:49

there's an issue du jour that that you

00:22:51

know they care about more than anything

00:22:52

else in the world look there's not going

00:22:53

to be a company that can accommodate

00:22:55

that sort of fickle activism brian can i

00:22:58

ask you a question are there um any um

00:23:00

systems decentralized systems that uh

00:23:03

kind of give individuals

00:23:06

you know but you viewed interesting

00:23:08

models that give people the ability to

00:23:10

affect social change um in a way that

00:23:12

kind of historically may have been more

00:23:15

of a hill to climb where people can kind

00:23:16

of aggregate resources and aggregate a

00:23:18

voice in a way that can kind of affect

00:23:20

outcomes and do we think that that kind

00:23:22

of becomes a mechanism for social change

00:23:24

in the future

00:23:25

you're making me think of dowels and

00:23:26

things like that but i think a lot of

00:23:27

that is kind of unproven like daos are

00:23:29

probably good ways to get

00:23:31

new kind of governance systems in place

00:23:33

for allocating capital or maybe even

00:23:35

managing a city or or a society but like

00:23:38

you know i kind of agree with david i

00:23:39

think the best way to affect change

00:23:41

right now today is for young people is

00:23:43

start a company or join a company

00:23:45

i think young people are sometimes a

00:23:47

little enamored with like becoming an

00:23:49

activist but i think fundamentally

00:23:50

that's

00:23:51

you're sort of giving up your power by

00:23:53

saying like well they have the power and

00:23:54

i don't and so i'm gonna speak truth to

00:23:56

power but i think you know some there's

00:23:58

context for that historically whether

00:24:00

that may have been more true but i think

00:24:01

today a lot of people they have more

00:24:03

power than they realize and if you go

00:24:04

start a company which by the way

00:24:05

companies are decentralized too you can

00:24:07

have lots of little companies all over

00:24:08

the world um they're not like you know

00:24:11

monolithic usually and so if they start

00:24:13

a company they can have a good impact i

00:24:15

think on the biggest issues out there

00:24:18

and i think over time as well the way

00:24:20

that you have real impact is that you

00:24:21

prove yourself in the market of ideas to

00:24:24

have a high reputation and to be really

00:24:26

reliable and that is not something that

00:24:29

you can just overpower

00:24:31

you know because you're 19 or 20 and

00:24:33

you're really upset by something at some

00:24:35

point you're going to have to really

00:24:37

invest your time and dedicate yourself

00:24:39

to something that you really really care

00:24:41

about and then the world tends to move

00:24:43

to the good ideas

00:24:45

so i think part of like what we also

00:24:47

need to remind folks is that this is a

00:24:49

like if you want to make real

00:24:50

sustainable change it's hard it doesn't

00:24:52

matter in which area you pick it is just

00:24:55

really hard but if it's really worth it

00:24:57

you should give your life to it but what

00:24:59

i think people push back on is

00:25:02

the more superficial forms of just

00:25:04

virtue signaling and saying yeah in this

00:25:06

moment

00:25:07

i really want to pretend i care about

00:25:09

something but when push comes to shove

00:25:10

i'm not really willing to take the next

00:25:12

step i don't i think that most people

00:25:13

find that very unreliable yeah i think a

00:25:15

good question to ask

00:25:17

for somebody who purports to really care

00:25:19

is like what do you care about that's

00:25:20

not currently in the news you know

00:25:22

that's not like the hot thing that

00:25:24

everyone is basically

00:25:26

obsessed with well and then how are you

00:25:28

changing it and what is your plan to

00:25:29

change it over the next decade or two

00:25:31

like

00:25:32

you have yeah because it takes it takes

00:25:34

it takes many years to effectively

00:25:36

create a startup you know five years ten

00:25:38

years and so if your issue does yours is

00:25:41

whatever's in the news you're not going

00:25:42

to create that kind of change you know i

00:25:44

do think there are a lot of similarities

00:25:45

between mission-driven startups and

00:25:47

political movements you know i wrote a

00:25:49

blog post called your startup as a

00:25:50

movement where i basically say that

00:25:52

you know good marketing is about

00:25:54

evangelism it is has everything in

00:25:57

common with what good political leaders

00:25:59

do basically they critique the status

00:26:01

quo they tell you what the world likes

00:26:04

looks like today what the problem with

00:26:05

that is and where the world needs to get

00:26:08

to what the solution is and then how

00:26:10

they're going to deliver that solution

00:26:11

so

00:26:12

you can i think as the leader of a

00:26:14

company be very mission driven you can

00:26:18

bring about that change you want to see

00:26:19

in the world you just have to attach a

00:26:21

business model to it if you don't have a

00:26:22

business model you're just collecting

00:26:24

donations let's build on that brian what

00:26:26

is the stated mission today of coinbase

00:26:28

yeah our mission is to increase economic

00:26:30

freedom in the world

00:26:31

and if for people aren't familiar with

00:26:33

that term economic freedom is kind of an

00:26:35

economic term like gdp but it looks at

00:26:37

the measures of different countries of

00:26:38

the world and looks at factors like are

00:26:40

their property rights enforced how

00:26:42

stable is the currency how easy is it to

00:26:44

start a business you know is there

00:26:46

corruption in bribery prevalent and

00:26:48

things like that and what's really cool

00:26:50

about economic freedom is that basically

00:26:51

countries with higher economic freedom

00:26:53

um you know like singapore and

00:26:56

the united states and ireland they tend

00:26:58

to correlate with all kinds of things we

00:27:00

want in society not just better economic

00:27:02

growth but even higher self-reported

00:27:04

happiness of citizens better treatment

00:27:06

of the environment better income for the

00:27:08

lowest 10 in society gender equality all

00:27:11

that stuff yeah gender equality and then

00:27:13

yeah countries with net low economic

00:27:15

freedom

00:27:16

you know cuba north korea sudan these

00:27:18

are some of the lowest they tend to have

00:27:21

you know even things we don't want like

00:27:23

higher corruption higher war

00:27:25

higher infant mortality so it's

00:27:28

basically when i read the bitcoin white

00:27:29

paper back in 2010 i had this thought

00:27:32

eventually that was like

00:27:33

maybe cryptocurrency is this unique

00:27:35

moment in history this unique technology

00:27:37

that allows us to inject economic

00:27:38

freedom into the countries all of the

00:27:40

world especially now that more and more

00:27:41

people have a smartphone and we can

00:27:43

basically put good financial

00:27:44

infrastructure good property rights you

00:27:47

know global trade a stable currency into

00:27:50

200 countries all over the world as one

00:27:52

small group relatively small group of

00:27:54

people and hopefully it has all these

00:27:55

positive downstream impacts so that's

00:27:56

the mission of coinbase when you look at

00:27:58

the regulatory environment uh it has

00:28:01

been far from clear

00:28:03

what's allowed here in the united states

00:28:05

in fact you had a pretty um strong

00:28:09

lee worded tweet storm back in september

00:28:12

of

00:28:13

2021 some really sketchy behavior coming

00:28:15

out of the sec race recently story time

00:28:17

maybe you could talk a little bit about

00:28:20

the sec's approach to cryptocurrency

00:28:23

versus securities

00:28:25

xrp comes to mind

00:28:28

and knowing your customer you've

00:28:29

obviously taken a very conservative

00:28:31

approach to what tokens you

00:28:33

uh put on the platform and then you have

00:28:35

competitors who are offshore who it's

00:28:37

kind of yolo anything goes

00:28:39

um what is

00:28:41

the current administration doing right

00:28:43

wrong and what needs to happen here in

00:28:45

the u.s

00:28:46

to for us to be competitive in crypto

00:28:49

while still protecting citizens from

00:28:52

you know being bag holders yeah

00:28:54

it's a big question so you know as a

00:28:56

startup you're always trying to thread

00:28:58

the needle here you don't want to

00:29:00

wait too long for clarity because

00:29:01

sometimes these things take five ten

00:29:03

years and so you'll just never launch a

00:29:04

product but if you if you're too

00:29:06

aggressive you can blow the place up and

00:29:08

so what we always did in the early days

00:29:09

of coinbase is we said

00:29:11

we want to go do what we think is going

00:29:13

to be required in the future go get

00:29:15

licenses go do kyc go go do aml

00:29:18

anti-money laundering

00:29:19

and so we tried to basically do the

00:29:21

right thing go and talk to these

00:29:22

regulators practically now the u.s has

00:29:24

actually been pretty forward thinking on

00:29:26

this i'd say every year we get more and

00:29:28

more clarity so coinbase is now a very

00:29:30

regulated financial service business you

00:29:32

know i can go through the whole list we

00:29:34

have a license from the cftc a federal

00:29:36

regulator we acquired some broker dealer

00:29:38

licenses which the sec regulates we have

00:29:40

money transformation licenses we're a

00:29:41

bit licensed in new york et cetera and

00:29:43

that's just in the united states so

00:29:44

we're in many many countries around the

00:29:46

world

00:29:47

so

00:29:48

how do we get more clarity well one

00:29:50

thing i'll just say is it's actually

00:29:51

better for there to be lack of clarity

00:29:52

than to be clarity that is um punitive

00:29:55

or bad

00:29:56

so

00:29:57

it's good that there's a little bit of

00:29:59

lack of clarity as long as it's not

00:30:00

curtailing the industry but would be

00:30:02

even better is to have clarity that does

00:30:04

provide that right balance of good

00:30:06

consumer protection you know make sure

00:30:08

that there's a fair level playing field

00:30:10

for all the players and then it allows

00:30:13

innovation to flourish and so what's

00:30:15

good now is that in the us um you know

00:30:17

dubai administration put out an

00:30:18

executive order recently kind of asking

00:30:20

all the different agencies and

00:30:21

departments to come back with a clear

00:30:23

plan and they did recognize the

00:30:24

potential innovation in crypto in that

00:30:26

in that executive order which i was

00:30:27

really

00:30:28

pleasantly surprised to see

00:30:30

um so what's happening now is that there

00:30:32

was a little bit of jockeying i think

00:30:34

there where the sec said hey these all

00:30:35

look like securities to us and i don't

00:30:37

think that's quite true you know the

00:30:38

cftc is regulates commodities while some

00:30:41

cryptos are going to be commodities

00:30:43

i think here's here's what i'm realizing

00:30:45

is that crypto is going to be many

00:30:46

different things it's not just going to

00:30:48

be one regulator

00:30:49

doing it so you know think about

00:30:51

cryptocurrencies like bitcoin that's

00:30:52

pretty clearly a commodity or ethereum

00:30:54

right like many of these are ethereum

00:30:56

commodities that probably should be

00:30:57

regulated by the commodities regular the

00:30:59

cftc now if people want to raise money

00:31:01

for their company a security token that

00:31:04

should be regulated as a security by the

00:31:05

sec that'd be great to have more clarity

00:31:07

on that let's have

00:31:08

we would love to keep working with the

00:31:10

sec to make that a well trodden path

00:31:12

that any company can go raise money and

00:31:14

that's how it would get listed on an

00:31:15

exchange like ours and we could register

00:31:17

as a broker-dealer or whatever license

00:31:19

is needed

00:31:20

um

00:31:21

separately there's also some

00:31:22

cryptocurrencies that are going to be

00:31:23

currencies like stable coins and you

00:31:25

know maybe the treasury should regulate

00:31:27

those and finally there's going to be

00:31:28

cryptocurrencies that are none of the

00:31:30

above they're artwork or something

00:31:32

that's probably shouldn't even be

00:31:33

regulated and so

00:31:35

the us with various financial you know

00:31:38

international bodies like g20 and fatiff

00:31:41

and all these imf are probably going to

00:31:43

put some policy papers together we're

00:31:45

going to eventually end up with some

00:31:46

kind of a test that says is this

00:31:48

cryptocurrency a commodity a security a

00:31:50

currency or something else like artwork

00:31:53

and then maybe

00:31:54

maybe five more things we haven't even

00:31:55

thought of that it'll end up being in

00:31:56

the future what would you make the test

00:31:59

for this is a utility token versus

00:32:01

specul speculative

00:32:04

uh security because that seems to be the

00:32:06

one that's really hard for people to

00:32:08

figure out if 99 of people are buying a

00:32:12

token

00:32:13

on coinbase because they want to see it

00:32:14

appreciate and they want to see it gain

00:32:16

value and only one percent are using it

00:32:19

for the actual utility of it is it then

00:32:22

a security is it by the percentage of

00:32:23

people who use it

00:32:25

how how would you as the the you know

00:32:28

the leader in this industry you know

00:32:30

uh actually define it what's your

00:32:32

definition

00:32:33

yeah so i think look i i don't want to

00:32:35

be presumptuous here i think that we can

00:32:37

we can put some policy papers together

00:32:39

but i don't want to be you know it's the

00:32:41

policy makers job to come up with the

00:32:43

policy so i don't want to step on

00:32:44

anyone's toes but that being said i

00:32:46

think there's some existing case law out

00:32:47

there like you know the howie test is

00:32:49

something from a long time ago we could

00:32:50

probably build upon that so the howie

00:32:52

test kind of says you know is this an

00:32:54

investment in a common enterprise with

00:32:57

an expectation of profit and that would

00:32:58

make it that would make it a security so

00:33:00

there's a lot of pieces to that you know

00:33:01

is it an investment well if you're just

00:33:03

giving the tokens away i guess people

00:33:04

aren't investing right is it a common

00:33:06

enterprise well maybe if it's

00:33:07

decentralized and you don't actually

00:33:09

control this entity like um you own you

00:33:11

know less than a majority share or

00:33:13

something maybe then that's not a

00:33:14

security right or if there's not an

00:33:15

expectation of profit people are using

00:33:17

it for something so every startup right

00:33:19

now in the space has basically had to

00:33:20

hire a bunch of expensive lawyers to go

00:33:22

tease apart these old old rules that

00:33:24

some of them were created in like the

00:33:25

1930s you know before the internet and

00:33:28

everything and try to understand where

00:33:31

they're falling and so i think building

00:33:32

upon that howie test but it could be

00:33:34

something that includes a commodities

00:33:36

definition something or currency

00:33:37

definition

00:33:39

you know i think we should basically

00:33:41

it's on us and the other crypto

00:33:42

companies out there to go hire a really

00:33:44

smart lawyer who has drafted legislation

00:33:46

before and a bill and actually get a

00:33:49

draft of it out there and then we can

00:33:50

start to circulate it with various

00:33:51

policy makers and get their feedback and

00:33:53

maybe they take it and run with it maybe

00:33:54

they say thanks we have it we've got it

00:33:55

from here but that's our next step

00:33:57

freedberg saks jamath would you go with

00:34:00

the howie test um or do you have

00:34:03

thoughts on how to how the government

00:34:05

here in the u.s should say this is a

00:34:06

security

00:34:07

this is a utility token

00:34:09

i think what the eo did was basically

00:34:12

kind of give people enough

00:34:16

regulatory

00:34:18

safety in the sense that something

00:34:20

reasonable will probably happen in the

00:34:22

reasonable future so that people could

00:34:24

keep building and iterating my big

00:34:26

takeaway in the last sort of like nine

00:34:28

months is that this thing is now too big

00:34:30

to fail and the government basically has

00:34:32

to just find a reasonable framework to

00:34:34

enable something because the alt the the

00:34:36

real big issue jason would be if they

00:34:38

did something crazy and now you know

00:34:40

retail would just get completely smoked

00:34:42

because i think they are the what do you

00:34:43

think is reasonable i think congress has

00:34:45

to basically pass a sensible set of

00:34:47

legislations that clearly demarcate

00:34:48

exactly what brian said this realm of

00:34:50

stuff goes to the cftc this realm of

00:34:53

stuff goes to the sec now you guys go

00:34:55

and implement and if left to their own

00:34:57

devices those two will use these arcane

00:34:59

laws and try to negotiate amongst each

00:35:00

other who should be covering what but

00:35:02

they can't arbitrate that decision and

00:35:04

so as a result nothing will nothing

00:35:05

reasonable will happen

00:35:07

um so i think that's what has to happen

00:35:08

congress has to get together and write

00:35:10

something reasonable freedom you are

00:35:11

building companies at the production

00:35:13

board every year you build a couple of

00:35:15

companies you have to go through

00:35:17

securities law you have to

00:35:18

you know raise money from accredited

00:35:20

investors you do it in the traditional

00:35:22

way

00:35:23

but you must be looking at crypto saying

00:35:25

well i could launch conor munich

00:35:27

whatever project and have a token

00:35:29

associated with it and raise money and

00:35:30

raise it globally or start a dow what do

00:35:33

you think is a reasonable way

00:35:35

for people like yourself who are

00:35:38

playing by the existing rules to be able

00:35:41

to embrace this new technology and these

00:35:43

new platforms and paradigms i think how

00:35:46

should the government handle it well

00:35:47

some perspectives important which is you

00:35:50

know go back to kind of the 1920s in the

00:35:53

united states and there were

00:35:55

pre-1920s

00:35:57

folks would go around and tell tall

00:35:59

tales about interesting business ideas

00:36:02

or business concepts or things that they

00:36:03

were going to do with if they got a

00:36:05

bunch of money from investors and

00:36:06

investors gave them money

00:36:08

and they didn't actually deliver on what

00:36:09

they said they were going to do and they

00:36:10

got swindled and there was swindle story

00:36:12

after swindle story that you can read

00:36:14

about and we saw this even with the ico

00:36:17

craze of a few years ago right where

00:36:19

people tell a tall tale you expect some

00:36:20

value or some

00:36:22

asset that you're kind of putting

00:36:23

capital into that will pay off over time

00:36:26

and there's a swindle behind it and

00:36:28

that's really the origin of securities

00:36:30

laws in large part is to protect the

00:36:32

individual from being swindled to

00:36:35

protect the storyteller that can take

00:36:36

money away from people and figure out

00:36:38

how to kind of rip them off

00:36:41

and create a set of laws that the

00:36:42

government can then enforce through the

00:36:44

risk of imprisonment against doing those

00:36:47

things the challenge becomes when

00:36:49

there's this

00:36:50

more thoughtful way of running capital

00:36:53

markets on the other side and how do we

00:36:55

actually resolve to some medium ground

00:36:57

here i'm not sure that you're gonna have

00:36:59

as quick of a resolution to say well

00:37:01

let's go back to the old way where

00:37:02

anyone can say anything to anyone they

00:37:04

want and anyone can put money into any

00:37:06

project that they want because the role

00:37:08

of the arbiter is to protect those from

00:37:11

being taken advantage of if 85 percent

00:37:13

of those projects are great and 85

00:37:15

percent of the investors are intelligent

00:37:16

to know what they're doing it's the 15

00:37:18

it doesn't matter it's the 15

00:37:20

that the government is here to protect

00:37:22

and that's the reason we have an

00:37:24

institution called the government is to

00:37:27

create systems of protection for those

00:37:29

who are otherwise unable to protect

00:37:31

themselves now a free market libertarian

00:37:33

might say

00:37:34

we should have at it but the problem is

00:37:36

we all have them we all feel as a group

00:37:39

at some point

00:37:40

a moral obligation to protect those who

00:37:43

are unprotected and that's why these

00:37:45

systems emerge over time and that's why

00:37:46

these institutions exist that's why the

00:37:48

government exists and it's why these

00:37:49

securities laws exist and so it's

00:37:52

difficult to assume that we can just go

00:37:53

back to the kind of

00:37:56

you know um uh prototypical days of you

00:37:59

know let me raise money for anything

00:38:00

with any story without any regulation

00:38:02

and assume that it's going to work out

00:38:04

well because all it's going to take is a

00:38:05

few of these stories before you have

00:38:08

folks standing up in congress saying

00:38:09

this is unbelievable we can't let this

00:38:11

happen anymore let's go shut down the

00:38:13

miners let's go shut down the data

00:38:14

centers let's go after every asset we

00:38:16

can and by the way they will because

00:38:17

look at what just happened with russia

00:38:19

the way that governments can kind of

00:38:21

coalesce around digital systems now and

00:38:23

make significant change and block things

00:38:25

from happening i don't know if there is

00:38:27

a world where we can assume that even

00:38:29

with a free and open internet that these

00:38:31

systems can truly be decentralized given

00:38:34

the reach that governments have and it

00:38:36

is going to be in my mind i've said this

00:38:37

in the past kind of the great tension of

00:38:39

the 21st century socially is the

00:38:41

decentralized systems that really want

00:38:43

to challenge what we believe to be a lot

00:38:45

of overreach that's happening by

00:38:47

governments against the government's

00:38:49

believed role to be protecting those who

00:38:51

are who need the protection and so i

00:38:53

don't know that's a very long-winded

00:38:54

moral statement well i mean i think it's

00:38:57

a very interesting one brian what do you

00:38:58

what do you think of this i get it these

00:39:00

are complicated issues right we want to

00:39:01

balance protecting people but we also

00:39:04

want to not have the government be in a

00:39:05

position where it's picking winners and

00:39:07

losers and so

00:39:08

you know

00:39:10

you just because something is legal

00:39:12

doesn't make it make it a good

00:39:13

investment i guess you know you could

00:39:14

have you could have owned netflix last

00:39:16

week or something like that and

00:39:18

you guys might talk about that in a

00:39:19

minute but

00:39:20

look i think we all want to get rid of

00:39:22

fraud right so if you commit fraud

00:39:25

meaning you lied to investors

00:39:28

then that should be a crime right like

00:39:30

we i want to i want to work with anybody

00:39:31

in government to go put that make that

00:39:33

stuff not happen the danger is if we

00:39:35

ever get into a place where we say well

00:39:37

only wealthy people can now invest

00:39:39

because somehow there's an accredited

00:39:40

investor test that's inherently

00:39:42

exclusionary i don't i don't like the

00:39:43

accredited investor laws

00:39:44

if we ever get into a place where the

00:39:46

government is saying you know well you

00:39:47

have to

00:39:48

you have to have xyz criteria and a

00:39:50

person with this many years of

00:39:51

experience on their resume and then now

00:39:52

we get into like the government sort of

00:39:54

designed by committee to pick winners

00:39:56

and losers and that's that's inherently

00:39:57

flawed because you know a lot of

00:40:00

true breakthrough innovation they look

00:40:02

like bad ideas at the beginning they're

00:40:03

the kind of things that a government

00:40:05

body would never invest in or put money

00:40:07

into right so

00:40:08

that's the inherent tension we have to

00:40:10

worry about we're protecting people but

00:40:11

not putting the government in the role

00:40:13

of picking winners and losers sacks you

00:40:14

have any uh input on this sort of

00:40:16

framework you are

00:40:18

investing traditionally in stocks but

00:40:20

you have also um allocated some money to

00:40:23

multi-coin capital and other folks who

00:40:24

are buying tokens and then you have to

00:40:26

distribute them and you have to deal

00:40:28

with these downstream legal issues how

00:40:29

are you dealing with them and then what

00:40:30

do you think is a proper framework here

00:40:33

in the u.s for protecting consumers

00:40:35

while allowing innovation i think the

00:40:37

big picture framework that we have is

00:40:38

correct which is you kind of have this

00:40:40

dichotomy between security tokens and

00:40:43

utility tokens so security tokens

00:40:45

basically it's a token that's issued

00:40:47

that it's basically like a share of

00:40:49

stock or a fractional ownership

00:40:52

in some business doesn't really have a

00:40:54

lot of functionality associated with it

00:40:57

that's kind of an end run around the

00:40:58

securities laws they should be treated

00:40:59

like securities on the other hand though

00:41:02

there are a lot of tokens that are

00:41:05

issued as part of creating a new kind of

00:41:07

technology network and

00:41:09

those tokens have real functionality and

00:41:11

if you were to subject them to

00:41:13

securities laws and impose kyc and

00:41:15

accreditation you have to go through all

00:41:16

these oops just to add one to your

00:41:18

wallet it would destroy the potential

00:41:20

functionality created by these systems

00:41:22

so where there's real utility like that

00:41:24

i think the government

00:41:26

should foster innovation by having a

00:41:28

lighter hand don't subject them to

00:41:30

securities laws and really what

00:41:32

entrepreneurs need in the space are some

00:41:34

safe harbors some really clear lines

00:41:36

around what would trip them up

00:41:39

and and have them cross over from

00:41:42

utility token and security token so they

00:41:44

know to avoid those things so they can

00:41:46

continue innovating on their core

00:41:47

project

00:41:48

i think that's well said i i have uh

00:41:50

three ideas brian i want to run by you

00:41:52

number one

00:41:53

a sophisticated test for investors in

00:41:55

crypto and in startups so just like you

00:41:57

get a gun test or you know you test for

00:42:00

a driver's license we come up with a way

00:42:02

for people to become sophisticated they

00:42:04

take a simple test maybe it's a you know

00:42:06

whatever number of questions and then

00:42:08

second

00:42:09

maybe some safe harbors around the scale

00:42:11

of a project so any crypto project under

00:42:13

10 million can be an experiment and you

00:42:16

know it's kind of like

00:42:18

no need to have rules people just have

00:42:19

to sign a disclaimer a waiver this is an

00:42:21

experiment then things may be between 10

00:42:23

and 100 million you implement kyc and

00:42:26

maybe throttle the numbers

00:42:28

those are some good ideas for when

00:42:30

you're talking about the bucket of

00:42:31

security tokens if you want to start

00:42:32

imposing those kinds of rules on utility

00:42:35

tokens

00:42:36

you can't have a functioning

00:42:38

network with like all these sort of

00:42:40

friction well hold on but if then if the

00:42:42

project gets scale then you just have to

00:42:45

file a little more have a little more

00:42:46

kyc and then finally the founders of

00:42:49

these projects they can just launch them

00:42:51

and disappear

00:42:52

they have no

00:42:53

director-like duty to the project do you

00:42:57

think there needs to be something

00:42:58

similar to directors in corporations so

00:43:02

just three ideas there that i've heard

00:43:04

other people talk about or i've been

00:43:05

thinking about right those are pretty

00:43:07

good i like those actually i mean the

00:43:09

nice thing about a driver's license test

00:43:11

for financial literacy is that it

00:43:12

doesn't measure how much money you have

00:43:14

so it would allow

00:43:16

smart you know aspiring people who

00:43:18

didn't start a lot of money

00:43:20

um like a lot of us to also be able to

00:43:22

participate early on in these which

00:43:23

would be really great um yeah i think

00:43:26

it's you know some kind of a safe harbor

00:43:27

or sandbox provision i think is is a

00:43:29

really great idea as well and lastly

00:43:31

yeah i mean if you were able to um

00:43:34

basically i think your three ideas are

00:43:35

great so those are good i think that

00:43:38

they're good for securities but i mean

00:43:40

should if you just want to buy gas on a

00:43:41

blockchain to run your program

00:43:44

or you're a user of a application that's

00:43:46

being run on a blockchain you just want

00:43:48

to buy a token for gas do you really

00:43:50

have to go through all these like kyc

00:43:52

type hoops hopefully not especially if

00:43:54

it's if it's a utility i mean

00:43:55

self-custodial wallets and dapps or

00:43:57

decentralized apps are this huge area of

00:43:59

innovation that you know you wouldn't

00:44:00

want to like

00:44:01

imagine if the us government had said

00:44:02

you need to come in and register to make

00:44:03

a website or something like that that

00:44:05

would have been a terrible thing for

00:44:07

innovation globally

00:44:08

so and you have to remember too that a

00:44:10

lot of this is going to flow to the

00:44:11

country with the most permissive laws so

00:44:14

a lot of governments around the world

00:44:16

not the most permissive but the most

00:44:17

well structured that balances all that

00:44:19

all the pros may be clear

00:44:21

yeah

00:44:22

the thing that i would just add to this

00:44:23

though is that there's a lot more than

00:44:25

just aml and kyc guys that has to happen

00:44:28

for this to be a functioning ecosystem

00:44:31

we average i think one hack a week in

00:44:33

the crypto ecosystem right this bean

00:44:35

stock happened like just a few days ago

00:44:38

that was almost 200 million dollars last

00:44:41

month axe infinity what was that almost

00:44:42

600 million dollars so there's a lot of

00:44:45

stuff where in the in the

00:44:47

normal securities world like if you're

00:44:50

a director of a company and you don't

00:44:52

have these adequate procedures and brian

00:44:54

you live this every day where there's

00:44:55

like an audit committee and there's

00:44:56

somebody that shares audit that has to

00:44:58

go and think about information security

00:45:01

and blah blah and all these disclosures

00:45:02

have to happen insurance but all these

00:45:05

disclosures are really about actual work

00:45:07

being done

00:45:08

if you don't do that work and then you

00:45:10

get hacked you're actually liable right

00:45:12

there's no version of this in a world

00:45:13

where it is a little bit of the wild

00:45:14

west so that stuff also has to exist

00:45:16

this is what i what i mean by i actually

00:45:19

think congress just needs to kind of

00:45:20

like update the set of

00:45:22

laws that actually allow the cftc and

00:45:24

the sec to do their job to include this

00:45:26

and say now go and incrementally figure

00:45:28

this out

00:45:29

because even if you get the aml and kyc

00:45:31

stuff right then there's all this other

00:45:33

stuff where you know these folks that

00:45:35

had they're basically you know all this

00:45:36

all this value deprived

00:45:39

who do they go to to try to get the

00:45:40

money back

00:45:41

you know in in the case of axi i mean

00:45:44

this is it's an incredible thing but

00:45:45

like you know they went to andreessen

00:45:46

and they raised a new round they're like

00:45:48

we're just going to make everybody whole

00:45:49

but that's insane right that's like not

00:45:51

you can't expect that to happen with

00:45:53

every single project every single

00:45:55

company it's not going to be possible

00:45:57

yeah

00:45:58

well i think a couple things will happen

00:45:59

i mean in the s in the custodial world

00:46:01

of crypto there'll be more regulation

00:46:02

there already is right like we we have a

00:46:04

new york trust company that we get

00:46:05

audited for various um control

00:46:08

environments and safety and things like

00:46:09

that but in the self-custodial world

00:46:11

everyone is going to start to be in

00:46:13

control of their own assets

00:46:15

and i think that you know the tools are

00:46:17

getting better and better for that like

00:46:18

you know social recovery of keys if you

00:46:20

if you forget your password and these

00:46:22

kind of smart contract wallets and so

00:46:25

you know both are growing um and i think

00:46:27

in the future people may actually start

00:46:29

to take more responsibilities for

00:46:30

storing their own wealth if they want to

00:46:32

choose to do that and that'll allow them

00:46:33

to kind of access a broader ecosystem of

00:46:36

things let me ask a question brian uh

00:46:38

everybody seems to be very concerned

00:46:41

about tether

00:46:43

you i don't believe participate in the

00:46:45

tether ecosystem at coinbase is that

00:46:47

correct

00:46:48

uh well we're not participating directly

00:46:50

but we support as many assets as people

00:46:52

want to use and that is one of the ones

00:46:54

that we've supported people to deposit

00:46:55

and withdraw in coinbase

00:46:57

they've been um banned in new york

00:47:00

they've had uh regulatory action in

00:47:02

canada

00:47:03

uh people

00:47:05

are concerned about their attestations

00:47:08

or lack of clarity on their commercial

00:47:09

paper

00:47:11

what do you think of these stable coins

00:47:14

getting very big

00:47:15

and maybe usdc seems to have it pretty

00:47:18

tightly

00:47:19

covered but there's all these concerns

00:47:20

and regulatory actions against tether is

00:47:22

that a big nothing burger or does it

00:47:25

concern you that there's a lack of

00:47:27

transparency into their holdings

00:47:30

yeah so i would say you know some of the

00:47:32

early stable coin efforts definitely

00:47:35

didn't have all their ducks in a row

00:47:36

from a reputational point of view

00:47:39

you know i'm not i'm not an expert on

00:47:41

tether my understanding is that there

00:47:42

have been some investigations and

00:47:44

enforcement actions which have required

00:47:45

them to go in there and clean up some

00:47:47

things

00:47:47

and um you know our

00:47:50

our digital asset listing group kind of

00:47:51

looked at a lot of this in depth and

00:47:52

made that judgment called that where

00:47:54

they where they were and where they are

00:47:55

now

00:47:57

but yeah i do think that we're seeing

00:47:59

the emergence of new groups like you

00:48:01

know usd coin is one of those that i

00:48:03

think has some better controls around it

00:48:05

and there's actually a bunch of um

00:48:07

stable coins now that are decentralized

00:48:10

you know die and fracks explain what

00:48:12

that is and why it's important

00:48:15

well so okay so it really comes down to

00:48:17

trust i mean

00:48:18

you know you can trust uh you can decide

00:48:21

to trust something like usdc that has

00:48:22

kind of audit requirements and you know

00:48:24

a big four accounting firm come in and

00:48:26

look at it and things like that

00:48:28

or you can

00:48:29

look at smart contract code and you know

00:48:31

thousands of people around the world can

00:48:32

look at that and there's an inherent bug

00:48:34

bounty if you find an issue there and if

00:48:35

it hasn't been found then you can start

00:48:37

to think about trusting that now i think

00:48:40

stable coins like like dye and others

00:48:43

they've been able to create these um

00:48:44

relatively complex systems that have

00:48:46

sort of um that one asset which is

00:48:48

intended to be stable but another one

00:48:50

which is sort of the collateral and you

00:48:52

could imagine various black swan events

00:48:54

where you know the peg would get broken

00:48:55

and things like that but it really

00:48:56

hasn't happened yet in die and it's

00:48:58

shown a lot of resiliency which i've

00:49:00

been very impressed by there's one

00:49:02

actually one other um type of coin which

00:49:04

i think is even maybe more interesting

00:49:06

than just wrapping a fiat uh

00:49:09

like a dollar or a rupee or something

00:49:11

like that because frankly you know the

00:49:12

dollar is seeing a lot of inflation you

00:49:14

guys have talked about it many times on

00:49:15

this show so do you really want to have

00:49:17

a stable quote stable coin that is

00:49:19

inflating you know eight percent a year

00:49:21

exactly there's there's some new coins

00:49:23

coming out which i've been really

00:49:24

excited to see which are i think you

00:49:26

know biology calls them flat coins but

00:49:27

they're basically looking at the

00:49:29

consumer price index

00:49:31

and they're trying to

00:49:32

basically have flat purchasing power and

00:49:35

assume that the dollar and various fiat

00:49:37

currencies around the world are actually

00:49:38

going to go through more inflation

00:49:40

that's a pretty cool idea and you can do

00:49:41

that in a creative way on a blockchain

00:49:42

by having various oracles which are

00:49:44

these sources of truth and if enough of

00:49:46

them you know 51 of them tell you the

00:49:48

cpi we think is this this year it can

00:49:50

kind of keep keep pace with cpi which is

00:49:53

a really cool innovation i think thank

00:49:54

you so much for brian armstrong for

00:49:56

joining us for the first hour and now

00:49:57

we'll continue on with our netflix

00:49:58

discussion brian's fantastic he was very

00:50:01

honest he answered a lot of questions

00:50:02

very honestly and he's a super fan of

00:50:04

the show that business is a great

00:50:06

business that business would be a great

00:50:08

business he's thoughtful we like

00:50:09

somebody who's thoughtful i really think

00:50:11

that the challenge that brian faced a

00:50:12

year and a half ago and the policy

00:50:13

decision he faced is now being faced by

00:50:15

every ceo across america and that's the

00:50:18

broad relevance is you know what are

00:50:20

they going to do do you see this this

00:50:22

quote by the mcdonald's ceo the former

00:50:24

mcdonald's ceo ed regency on wednesday

00:50:26

said companies have no business being in

00:50:28

politics and has launched a new advocacy

00:50:31

coalition to fight woke corporate

00:50:33

politics

00:50:35

he said corporations have no business

00:50:36

being on the right or the left because

00:50:39

they represent everybody there and their

00:50:40

sole job is to build equity for their

00:50:43

investors wait the people who make

00:50:44

fileto fish are not gonna chime in on

00:50:47

ukraine anymore

00:50:48

yeah but but think about that because

00:50:50

that actually is a pretty radical

00:50:53

it is a line in this end yeah he's

00:50:54

standing on brian's shoulders let's be

00:50:56

honest

00:50:57

i think you know the ceo of mcdonald's i

00:50:59

mean that's like a big you know

00:51:00

traditional fortune 500 type corporation

00:51:03

and they're saying like we're not doing

00:51:04

this anymore well you know what they

00:51:06

were more than willing to do it if it

00:51:07

scored them points what they realized

00:51:09

was it's going to be a never once you

00:51:11

engage that you're never going to be

00:51:13

able to disengage from it all right

00:51:14

let's pivot over to uh netflix they

00:51:16

reported a drop in net subscribers for

00:51:18

the first time in 10 years uh and the

00:51:20

stock dropped 35

00:51:24

market cap from 155 billion to

00:51:26

about 98 billion according to bloomberg

00:51:29

as of wednesday netflix was the worst

00:51:30

performing s p 500 so far in 2022 stock

00:51:35

down 63

00:51:37

year-to-date ackman uh dumped his entire

00:51:40

stake and booked a 430 million dollar

00:51:44

loss and a large part of this was

00:51:47

because they didn't hit their 2.5

00:51:49

million or so uh target uh increase in

00:51:52

subscribers and they in fact

00:51:54

lost all seven hundred thousand russian

00:51:56

subscribers as part of

00:51:59

uh boycotting um uh russia because of

00:52:02

the ukraine

00:52:04

war

00:52:06

what do we think is happening here is

00:52:08

this a bellwether chamoth for something

00:52:11

more

00:52:12

important going on or is this just

00:52:15

netflix not executing well

00:52:17

i think there are there's a macro

00:52:20

thing and then there's a netflix

00:52:21

specific thing the macro thing is that

00:52:24

we are learning the broad sweeping

00:52:27

impact of apple's privacy changes in my

00:52:30

opinion

00:52:31

you first saw it flow through into

00:52:33

facebook's earnings and basically them

00:52:35

saying this is going to be really tough

00:52:37

and you had netflix even if you add back

00:52:39

the russian subscribers basically spend

00:52:41

almost 600 million dollars in the

00:52:42

quarter on customer acquisition to

00:52:45

effectively they would have generated

00:52:46

500 000 subscribers net of churn right

00:52:49

which was still about a million and a

00:52:50

half under where they needed to be so

00:52:52

the point is that

00:52:54

i think netflix in some ways was a

00:52:55

little bit of a canary in the coal mine

00:52:58

for

00:52:58

the

00:53:00

the shrinking um

00:53:02

effectiveness of online advertising and

00:53:05

i think that's why you then saw two days

00:53:07

later

00:53:08

facebook got taken to the woodshed in

00:53:10

two days was down you know now it's down

00:53:12

i don't know 15 20 percent google

00:53:15

i think has been down a lot today it's

00:53:16

just getting absolutely smoked relative

00:53:18

to the market

00:53:20

so

00:53:20

that's the macro issue which is i think

00:53:22

um it's really hard for these ads to be

00:53:25

as effective as they used to be and it's

00:53:27

only going to get worse because google

00:53:28

has also said that they're going to

00:53:29

implement a lot of the same versions of

00:53:31

what apple did inside of android so

00:53:33

customer acquisition is going up so if

00:53:34

you look at then all the companies that

00:53:36

have to live and die

00:53:37

on cac

00:53:39

it's going to be an

00:53:40

expensive road that's the macro thing i

00:53:43

think that not enough people are talking

00:53:45

about

00:53:45

i think the micro thing inside of

00:53:47

netflix is that

00:53:49

you know people churn out of a service

00:53:52

when there isn't enough value

00:53:54

and i think that's the most basic

00:53:57

explanation of why so many people are

00:53:59

leaving netflix is that it's not that

00:54:01

valuable so when you're spending 20

00:54:02

billion dollars a year on content

00:54:05

but people more than ever are leaving

00:54:07

the service you have to inspect how much

00:54:09

are you really spending in these areas

00:54:11

and what is it actually creating in

00:54:12

terms of like library value you know

00:54:15

disney plus

00:54:17

i think has gotten has done an

00:54:18

incredible job in a much shorter period

00:54:21

of time

00:54:22

apple after only a few years wins the

00:54:24

first oscar of any of the streamers

00:54:27

right beating netflix even though

00:54:28

they've been in there and spent a

00:54:30

picture for best professed picture but

00:54:31

i'm saying yeah so when you put all

00:54:33

these things together uh i think netflix

00:54:35

probably has lost a little bit of the

00:54:36

script but they're also suffering from a

00:54:38

really macro headwind which is the

00:54:39

advertising business is broken

00:54:41

i would imagine that like total

00:54:44

subscribers to streaming services and if

00:54:46

you were to add up total subscription

00:54:48

service dollars it's probably growing a

00:54:50

lot oh for sure netflix's relative share

00:54:53

is going down because the quality of the

00:54:55

competitors is improving so much

00:54:58

even companies that are not able to

00:55:00

deliver like cnn shut down cnn plus this

00:55:02

week

00:55:03

after investing 300 million dollars in

00:55:05

trying to build out the service i mean

00:55:06

folks are putting serious dollars behind

00:55:08

these projects

00:55:10

um and so the competition is fierce and

00:55:12

they've got deep content libraries

00:55:13

behind them i personally think hbo max

00:55:16

is the best streaming service now

00:55:17

awesome followed by disney plus followed

00:55:20

by maybe a mix of amazon netflix and

00:55:24

um

00:55:25

you know uh prime and so like netflix's

00:55:28

relative value is going down because

00:55:31

there's so much other content when i'm

00:55:32

kind of thinking about what to watch i'm

00:55:34

looking at disney plus i'm looking at

00:55:36

hbo max and i'm like hey you know what

00:55:38

should i watch tonight and then i look

00:55:39

at netflix netflix doesn't have a

00:55:41

monopoly in content anymore and so when

00:55:44

i've got limited dollars

00:55:46

i personally looked at this after we

00:55:47

were texting about it i subscribed to

00:55:49

seven streaming services right now

00:55:52

and if i didn't care as much about how

00:55:54

much i was spending per month i would

00:55:55

probably cut three of them and netflix

00:55:58

yeah you're you're also then

00:55:59

highlighting the second i think macro

00:56:01

thing that is actually equally important

00:56:04

maybe even more important which is

00:56:06

you know the the first rule of

00:56:07

capitalism says that excess returns will

00:56:09

always get competed away so you know

00:56:12

netflix had the run of the place where

00:56:14

they were an effective monopoly totally

00:56:16

and now when everybody else woke up and

00:56:18

got religion they decided to invest and

00:56:20

they've created some really compelling

00:56:21

content and so all of those returns will

00:56:24

now get spread across seven or eight or

00:56:26

nine competitors which means that just

00:56:28

by definition mathematically netflix

00:56:30

can't win the way that they used to and

00:56:32

the network advantage in the streaming

00:56:34

model is content and consumers so you

00:56:36

have better content you get more

00:56:38

consumers you spend you get more money

00:56:39

from consumers you spend more on content

00:56:41

at some point you get diminishing

00:56:43

returns in that network model and now

00:56:45

we're seeing those diminishing returns

00:56:46

hit netflix they haven't built

00:56:48

advantages in search and discovery or in

00:56:51

other words social sharing or other

00:56:52

features into the app or into the

00:56:54

service that will give them more of a

00:56:56

lock-in value because all i'm doing is

00:56:58

buying con is watching they're also

00:56:59

three times

00:57:00

elsewhere they're also three times the

00:57:02

price of disney plus and other services

00:57:04

so they're

00:57:05

in the competition space people are

00:57:06

starting to look at and go is this worth

00:57:08

you know a disney and an nbc or is this

00:57:11

worth a hulu and an nbc

00:57:14

uh streaming service sax you had some

00:57:16

dad well i mean i agree with that i

00:57:18

would just add one factor to this which

00:57:20

is what elon said which is he said the

00:57:22

woke mind virus is making netflix

00:57:24

unwatchable i mean the quality of the

00:57:26

programming has gone down i mean netflix

00:57:28

used to be really good i can't think of

00:57:31

like a show now that i watch on netflix

00:57:34

and i do watch hbo max right now and

00:57:37

disney plus because they got some shows

00:57:39

that i like

00:57:40

so i think somehow the programming

00:57:42

people on netflix have gotten out of

00:57:44

touch

00:57:45

yeah are they pandering to that audience

00:57:47

sax do you think and you know similar to

00:57:48

kind of how disney ended up pandering

00:57:50

and do you think that there's broadly

00:57:51

this kind of media

00:57:53

problem of trying to pander to the wrong

00:57:55

audience i mean they almost threw

00:57:56

chappelle off who's the number by far

00:57:58

the number one comic in you know in

00:58:00

american comedy and they absolutely

00:58:02

would have thrown chappelle off and done

00:58:05

what a lot of those employees wanted if

00:58:07

they didn't have such a big deal with

00:58:08

him if he wasn't such a big deal no i

00:58:09

think they held the line pretty

00:58:11

pretty there's a lot of groveling

00:58:13

there's a lot of government

00:58:15

i think they've reasonably heard the

00:58:16

concerns of their employees and said we

00:58:18

reasonably disagree can i ask you guys

00:58:25

look yes maybe but what i'm saying is

00:58:27

that

00:58:28

that episode revealed that the people

00:58:30

are doing the programming in netflix

00:58:32

obviously

00:58:33

are like they're not like i think

00:58:35

they've lost touch with

00:58:36

where most of the country is i will give

00:58:38

a shout out i have not watched a series

00:58:40

on netflix in probably a year ozark no

00:58:43

no no but i will give a shout out to

00:58:46

never have i ever which mindy kaling

00:58:48

created she's amazing and that series is

00:58:51

incredibly funny and poignant and cool

00:58:54

and awesome but outside of that series i

00:58:57

cannot think of a single reason why i

00:58:59

would actually pay for netflix let me

00:59:01

ask you guys a question so going back to

00:59:03

because you know there was the whole

00:59:04

disney panda hbo max however oh my god

00:59:07

so good the whole industry is suffering

00:59:09

this problem do you remember this

00:59:10

we don't even watch it anymore this is

00:59:12

the question i have for you do you guys

00:59:14

think that there's a difference

00:59:15

culturally

00:59:17

in the management of the media company

00:59:19

so let's go through them warner media

00:59:22

disney

00:59:23

netflix

00:59:24

amazon

00:59:25

and do you think that that cultural

00:59:27

difference may create an advantage and

00:59:29

success do you think that warner media

00:59:31

is operating hbo max differently because

00:59:33

they're culturally different yeah

00:59:35

because they're culturally different

00:59:37

culturally different they have no and

00:59:39

for or tours hbo has always

00:59:42

sucked for years they got a few good

00:59:44

shows now it's it's more like they've

00:59:46

always been for tours they always have

00:59:48

gone

00:59:49

of the director the vision of the writer

00:59:51

and taking a lot of risk when you hear

00:59:53

that hbo logo

00:59:57

i agree they have some really good shows

00:59:59

right now but until the last couple of

01:00:01

years it was like pretty dismal business

01:00:02

but i mean i too freebrook's point you

01:00:04

know that netflix

01:00:06

i would say i would say disney has

01:00:08

marvel and that's why they have marvel

01:00:10

and star wars and that's and that's kept

01:00:12

them extremely relevant

01:00:17

and the advantage disney has is the uh

01:00:20

re-watchability of their content i don't

01:00:23

know how many times your kids have all

01:00:25

watched moana my kids have watched i've

01:00:27

had to watch moana 107 times already

01:00:29

let's hear it let's start yeah

01:00:32

and and

01:00:33

you're welcome yeah you're welcome and

01:00:36

the um and the star wars content as you

01:00:37

guys know you could re-watch star wars

01:00:39

and marvel i mean like the the content

01:00:41

is very different right pixar movies too

01:00:43

you can watch 100 times over that's very

01:00:45

different content hbo max is thrilling

01:00:48

and engaging and doesn't feel like it's

01:00:50

pandering hbo right now is operating at

01:00:52

the next level i mean so many good shows

01:00:54

it for me but netflix was five years ago

01:00:56

so i understand but we're not talking

01:00:58

about the past we're talking about here

01:00:59

today netflix went with these very big

01:01:01

deals with big celebrity names and you

01:01:05

know i think they just lost their

01:01:07

uniqueness in terms of taking so they

01:01:09

went with adam sandler no offense to

01:01:11

adam sandler fans

01:01:13

and they're doing a lot of reality tv

01:01:15

now and if you look at hulu like

01:01:18

dopesick and then the dropout if you

01:01:20

look at apple tv ted lasso we crashed uh

01:01:24

and then you look at hbo max with just

01:01:26

uh you know euphoria by the way yeah

01:01:28

even even i like i can actually

01:01:30

can you imagine euphoria

01:01:31

is it on netflix it would never be on

01:01:33

netflix it would never get made it would

01:01:35

never get made on netflix

01:01:37

they don't want to take risk hbo is like

01:01:38

for adults it's paid and they're going

01:01:41

to take risk and disney doesn't can't

01:01:43

touch that i think hulu is a sleeper i

01:01:44

mean hulu's great have you guys watched

01:01:46

the series called the great

01:01:48

on hulu no it's about catherine the

01:01:50

great it is incredible i can't believe

01:01:53

my videos i can't i can't open my

01:01:54

subscription so i'm watching severance

01:01:57

right now that's amazing it's like

01:01:58

really like you know by the way i

01:02:00

started paying for youtube tv so that i

01:02:02

could get streaming cable oh yeah

01:02:06

that's my number one my number one watch

01:02:07

thing it's youtube tv because i don't

01:02:09

know do you have youtube without ads

01:02:11

yeah you i do youtube right now it's

01:02:13

such a great way how do you do that

01:02:15

right

01:02:16

youtube red or premium youtube premium

01:02:18

it's cool it's nine bucks a month

01:02:19

tomorrow you can afford it

01:02:20

you see no ads on youtube ask your

01:02:23

assistant to ask her assistant to sign

01:02:25

you up and and you won't have to watch

01:02:26

ads on youtube are you functionally not

01:02:28

able to use the internet now

01:02:30

i actually have people that do it for me

01:02:33

do they type in your email password for

01:02:34

you yes yes

01:02:36

you're like how does this work and

01:02:37

they're like there's a person right

01:02:39

there netflix

01:02:41

if i can't get the mouse to work he's

01:02:43

got the vp of product from questron who

01:02:46

lives in a little shack in the house

01:02:47

next door who comes over and uses the

01:02:48

remote for him yeah thanks for tuning in

01:02:50

everybody for the dictator himself the

01:02:53

sultan of science and david sachs we

01:02:56

have a jam-packed agenda

01:02:58

my god the summit is going to be amazing

01:03:00

let's just do a little recap here of

01:03:02

what's happening

01:03:03

um we've got some pretty great speakers

01:03:05

ryan peterson nate silver uh claire

01:03:08

vickel uh brad gerstner

01:03:11

uh palmer lucky's coming elon's coming

01:03:13

keith reboy's coming joe lonsdale tim

01:03:16

urban wait do you see elon's coming

01:03:18

oh is that what it says on the website

01:03:20

yeah he's on the website now elon musk

01:03:22

he's coming nice of paypal

01:03:24

uh antonio gracias i mean we've got uh

01:03:27

just an all-star

01:03:28

uh kind of very bullied there and i

01:03:30

think uh glenn greenwald and matt tybee

01:03:32

are coming yeah that's gonna be amazing

01:03:34

and so it's gonna be really great all

01:03:35

right everybody uh we'll see you next

01:03:38

time on the all-in podcast bye-bye

01:03:42

[Music]

01:03:51

and they've just gone crazy with them

01:03:55

[Music]

01:04:02

besties

01:04:05

[Music]

01:04:24

your

01:04:24

feet we need to get mercy's

01:04:31

[Music]

Episode Highlights

Episode 77 of the All In Podcast
The hosts welcome Brian Armstrong, discussing his journey and insights on company culture.
“Thanks for having me, this is awesome!”
@ 04m 33s
April 23, 2022
Brian's Bold Decision
Brian Armstrong shares the impact of focusing Coinbase solely on its crypto mission.
“Short term it was quite a painful transition, but long term it turned out to be positive.”
@ 05m 29s
April 23, 2022
The Pressure on CEOs
CEOs face increasing pressure from employees to take sides on social issues, risking their companies' stability.
“You're gonna have to be coinbase or be disney.”
@ 18m 30s
April 23, 2022
Economic Freedom and Cryptocurrency
Coinbase's mission is to increase economic freedom globally through cryptocurrency, impacting various societal factors.
“Our mission is to increase economic freedom in the world.”
@ 26m 30s
April 23, 2022
The Next Steps for Crypto Regulation
Experts discuss the need for sensible legislation to protect investors and foster innovation.
“Congress has to get together and write something reasonable.”
@ 35m 08s
April 23, 2022
Balancing Protection and Innovation
The challenge lies in protecting investors without stifling innovation in the crypto space.
“We want to balance protecting people but not have the government picking winners and losers.”
@ 39m 01s
April 23, 2022
Emergence of Stable Coins
The rise of stable coins like USDC and decentralized options like DAI is reshaping trust in crypto.
“Stable coins are looking at the consumer price index to maintain purchasing power.”
@ 49m 27s
April 23, 2022
Corporate Politics Debate
Former McDonald's CEO argues corporations should stay out of politics, focusing on equity for investors.
“Companies have no business being in politics.”
@ 50m 28s
April 23, 2022
Netflix's Subscriber Drop
Netflix reported its first drop in subscribers in 10 years, leading to a 35% stock drop.
“Netflix was the worst performing S&P 500 so far in 2022.”
@ 51m 29s
April 23, 2022
The Rise of Streaming Competitors
As competitors improve their content, Netflix's relative share is declining.
“Netflix's relative value is going down because of fierce competition.”
@ 54m 53s
April 23, 2022

Episode Quotes

I highly recommend everybody try to lose some weight.
E77: Tech work culture, crypto regulation, stablecoins, $NFLX & more w/ Coinbase CEO Brian Armstrong
You're either gonna have to give in to the mob and suffer the consequences.
E77: Tech work culture, crypto regulation, stablecoins, $NFLX & more w/ Coinbase CEO Brian Armstrong
Good marketing is about evangelism; it has everything in common with political movements.
E77: Tech work culture, crypto regulation, stablecoins, $NFLX & more w/ Coinbase CEO Brian Armstrong
We all have a moral obligation to protect those who are unprotected.
E77: Tech work culture, crypto regulation, stablecoins, $NFLX & more w/ Coinbase CEO Brian Armstrong
A stable coin that is inflating?
E77: Tech work culture, crypto regulation, stablecoins, $NFLX & more w/ Coinbase CEO Brian Armstrong
The woke mind virus is making Netflix unwatchable.
E77: Tech work culture, crypto regulation, stablecoins, $NFLX & more w/ Coinbase CEO Brian Armstrong

Key Moments

Coinbase's Mission Focus04:54
Corporate Pressure17:23
Social Change21:00
Mission-Driven Companies21:45
Economic Freedom26:30
Regulatory Framework35:08
Netflix Struggles51:29
Content Competition54:53

Words per Minute Over Time

Vibes Breakdown

E132: SEC goes after crypto giants, Sequoia splits, LIV/PGA, Messi's deal + LIVE Q&A!

June 10, 2023

01:42:51

E132: SEC goes after crypto giants, Sequoia splits, LIV/PGA, Messi's deal + LIVE Q&A!

Fed Hesitates on Tariffs, The New Mag 7, Death of VC, Google's Value in a Post-Search World

May 09, 2025

01:36:09

Fed Hesitates on Tariffs, The New Mag 7, Death of VC, Google's Value in a Post-Search World

Software Stocks Implode, Claude's Hit List, State of the Union Reactions, Trump's Tariff Pivot

February 28, 2026

01:21:08

Software Stocks Implode, Claude's Hit List, State of the Union Reactions, Trump's Tariff Pivot

E85: SBF's crypto bailout, Zendesk sells for ~$10B, buyout targets, US diplomacy, AlphaFold & more

June 30, 2022

01:35:26

E85: SBF's crypto bailout, Zendesk sells for ~$10B, buyout targets, US diplomacy, AlphaFold & more

ICE Chaos in Minneapolis, Clawdbot Takeover, Why the Dollar is Dropping

January 31, 2026

01:30:02

ICE Chaos in Minneapolis, Clawdbot Takeover, Why the Dollar is Dropping

E74: Market update, inverted yield curve, immigration, new SPAC rules, $FB smears TikTok and more

April 01, 2022

01:39:11

E74: Market update, inverted yield curve, immigration, new SPAC rules, $FB smears TikTok and more

Elon gets paid, Apple's AI pop, OpenAI revenue rip, Macro debate & Inside Trump Fundraiser

June 14, 2024

01:24:48

Elon gets paid, Apple's AI pop, OpenAI revenue rip, Macro debate & Inside Trump Fundraiser

E75: Fast shuts down, board culpability, Elon buys 9% of Twitter, deplatforming's evolution & more

April 09, 2022

01:17:38

E75: Fast shuts down, board culpability, Elon buys 9% of Twitter, deplatforming's evolution & more

Trump Takes On the Fed, US-Intel Deal, Why Bankruptcies Are Up, OpenAI's Longevity Breakthrough

August 29, 2025

01:31:34

Trump Takes On the Fed, US-Intel Deal, Why Bankruptcies Are Up, OpenAI's Longevity Breakthrough

All-In Live from Austin: Colin and Samir, Chris Williamson, and Bryan Johnson

April 03, 2025

01:50:23

All-In Live from Austin: Colin and Samir, Chris Williamson, and Bryan Johnson

E80: Recession deep dive: VC psychology, macro risks, Tiger Global, predictions and more

May 13, 2022

01:41:14

E80: Recession deep dive: VC psychology, macro risks, Tiger Global, predictions and more

E47: Facebook's week from hell, Ellen Pao on sexism in Elizabeth Holmes coverage, Newsom wins & more

September 18, 2021

01:35:30

E47: Facebook's week from hell, Ellen Pao on sexism in Elizabeth Holmes coverage, Newsom wins & more