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All right, everybody. Welcome back to the number one podcast in the world, the allin podcast. Episode 273.
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It's a huge week. Saxs is our show. We got to get Mark Beni off, CEO of Salesforce.
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>> I'm the only one left here. You're the only one left. That's why that's how I
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made it on. >> No software CEOs, right, to China. >> There's no software uh CEOs in China.
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>> Interesting. But did you get the invite? What's your what's your status with this
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administration because you were obviously very famous for, you know, being a Democrat on the left? Um, and
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>> I'm not a Democrat on the left. I never have been. >> What are you talking about? You donated
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to all these folks and now you're kind of in Trump's camp. What is it? >> Listen, um, uh, the number one thing is,
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hey, I'm here to support the country. >> That's what I do. >> Okay.
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>> Yeah. >> So, you're right in the middle. You have uh an allegiance to America.
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>> I hope so. >> Yeah. >> I'm not a Democrat or Republican.
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>> You're an independent. >> I'm an American. >> Okay. I like it. Ben off got the invite
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to the two hottest tickets. He got the invite to Windsor Castle in Tales and then he got the invite uh when Prince
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Charles came here too. I saw he was in Tales then too. >> And also we were at that Saudi dinner
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too. Weren't you there? >> I did not go to that one. All right. Well, we have a big docket here. The
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Trumpi summit has begun. That is the number one story right now after a two-month delay because of the war in
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Iran. This is the first visit to China since 2017. Seventh face-to-face meeting for Trump
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and President Xi. There are 12 hours, 15 hours ahead of us. Today, Thursday was officially day one. Here's what
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happened. China agreed that the straight of Hormuz should remain open with no military commitment and that Iran should
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not have a nuclear weapon. So, we're in sync on that. On Taiwan, this is a little spicy. She warned that quote if
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handled poorly the two countries will collide or even clash putting the entire USChina relationship in an extremely
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dangerous situation. Poly market says Taiwan is safe for 2026 only 6% chance China invades this year on 23 million in
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volume which is a lot of volume 17% chance roughly triple that something happens by the end of
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2027. There's been a lot of debate. Uh some people say it will happen after Trump is out of office. Some people
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think it's going to happen while he's in office on trade. She committed to buy
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more soybeans, US oil, LNG, and 200 Boeing jets. She said the talks laid out a vision for
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constructive, strategic, and stable ties. Uh Trump was effusive in his praise uh for his friendship, giving the
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disclaimer that people don't like it when he praises she. Let's stop here and
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have a bit of a discussion. Freedberg, you uh have been a bit obsessed with this relationship and the bipolar
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nature of it. What are your thoughts here? And what is the goal for Trump? What is winning for Trump coming out of
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this? What is winning for she? I mean, she made comments in his uh opening remarks that it would be ideal
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if the United States and China could avoid the Thusidities trap, which as you'll recall, we talked about with
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Graeme Allison and we've talked about several times over the last few years that as a a rising power meets a kind of
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declining power, there's always some moment where you end up in this kind of
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state of conflict. And the question is, can the US and China avoid conflict and find a path to cooperation, which has
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happened a few times in history when we found ourselves in this moment, but doesn't often happen. And I think the
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way to kind of think about the opportunity is if you're in a resource expansive world where you are increasing
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productivity and increasing production globally at an accelerating pace, perhaps there's less of a reason to have
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conflict. Perhaps there's a way that uh both societies, both countries can increase the quality of life for their
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people without taking it away from the other side. And in a world where you're
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more resource constrained or resource static, that becomes less possible. You have to fight and grab land and grab
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territory and grab resources from the other side. And it seems like in this moment when we
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are seeing these extraordinary technology shifts unlocked by AI and automation and biotech and all of these
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kind of moments of which could be true abundance ahead of us. It seems like the perfect moment to say hey maybe the
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world can be more multipolar. It doesn't need to be uniolar. It doesn't need to
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be bipolar but everyone can participate in the expansion of the pie. And I think
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that that's kind of the idealistic way to look at the opportunity in front of
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the administration and Chinese leadership right now. Is there a way to kind of look at the next 30 years and
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ask the question, how do we all share proportionally in growing the pie and not find ourselves in a moment of
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conflict where we assume the pie is static? That's I think hopefully the message that comes out of this from an
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administration political perspective. It just seems like this is going to be a major coup for the president if he can
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walk away with a series of trade deals with China that increase job security, increase prosperity, increase income
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levels, increase investment in America and American jobs. It would be a huge win. And I think that's the tactical
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stuff that people will be truly looking for. And I think the big strategic question which I care most about which
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is avoiding conflict. Is there a way we can chart an economic and cooperative path that doesn't involve eating each
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other and involves sharing in a bigger pie? >> Chimoth, why is Trump bringing all of
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these CEOs with him and what does success look like uh coming out of this meeting?
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>> I think that you find a resolution and a path forward with China through economic
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cooperation. It's the largest consumer economy in the world. It's still largely closed off. And so I
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think what this is was about bringing some amount of financial firepower with them so that they could start to
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penetrate that market. Planes, cars, chips, you know, very much hard equipment type stuff. I've said this
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before, but I think the Chinese are very much a top- down confusion societal philosophy,
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whereas Americans are much more bottoms up kind of an individualist construction.
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The fact that we're so different actually gives us a lot of room to find cooperation and not find conflict. And I
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think at the center of that is economic cooperation. I had a friend call me this
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morning, very prominent Democrat. And you know, he was the one that called out the media, which I was surprised by, and
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he said, you know, the media gets it all wrong because they're talking about why
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is he bringing these CEOs? And instead the reality is that the simplest and shest path to a no conflict dant with
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China is economic entanglement and it has to be birectional because really for so many years it's been one way where
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they're sending us the cheap goods that they've wanted. So I think strategically it's good and I
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think you know I'll just take a slightly different take on what Freick said. I
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think behind closed doors they're probably just figuring out how to divide the pie.
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>> Uh unpack that for a second. divide which pie the the globe the economy the
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the western hemisphere versus >> look China China still needs a lot of energy they also need a lot of critical
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technologies that America provides and so I think that there's a trade there
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and the quit proquo is there are certain regions of the world where we want them
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to deescalate their participation in central South America being probably the most important and then the second is
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probably in the Middle East and then maybe the third is just to find some reasonable view of the Asia pack region
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together and I think there's a trade there to be done and in that you kind of
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start to carve up the world into a pretty easily identifiable bipolar construction.
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They also uh Mark need customers uh to buy their goods and we've had a bit of a
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uh mixed signals there. Tariffs obviously last year sticking it to China in a pretty hard way. the decoupling
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after COVID. Hey, we need to be independent energy, PPE, drugs, chips from China. Now, we're kind of saying,
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hey, let's come to the table and build connective tissue. So, sort that out for
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us on a business level. Should the two countries be deeply entwined? And then how do we manage having too much
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dependency on China? Well, you heard it today from President Xi when he said he wants a wider door.
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And that means that he wants the door of business to open even wider between the
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two countries. We have our absolute best salespeople there. Not just our president, who has to be one of the best
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salespeople I've ever met, but also we've got Elon, we've got Jensen selling
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chips, >> Kelly Ortberg selling planes, >> Kelly selling planes. He's already sold
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200. He wants to sell financial services. >> Brian is selling soybeans. Brian Sykes,
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the CEO of Cargle. You know, Cargle is the world's largest private company based in Minneapolis and he is going to
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come away selling a lot of soybeans. So, we have a you go through the list of the
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CEOs. Each one is our best salesperson in this category and they're going to
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come back with orders and it's going to be amazing. And by the way, I think you
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said it very well. you know, this idea of business is this kind of greatest platform for change. Um, they are
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working together like never before. Don't forget, this isn't Trump's and
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she's first meeting. These guys really like each other. They are very connected
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together. You can see they're smiling with each other. They're very they have
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a sales orientation. So, I expect a lot of order books to come back. >> I have a question for you. Are you
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allowed to sell software in China? We uh well with the right the Chinese have a lot of data residency laws. So uh you
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know we we do it is we don't have any offices or employees in China. We never
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have. The only time we end up with any residue in China is when we buy a company and they have a presence over
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there and then we have to devest from it. We have an exclusive partnership with Alibaba. Everything just goes
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through them and we we don't do anything in China. >> Is it significant growing? Is it what
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percentage of your revenue is it? >> Yeah, it's it's great. You know, we have
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it's a great partnership. Key customers of Salesforce like Louis Vuitton, you
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know, or Laura Piana, I know Chimoth loves Laura Piana. >> Yeah. >> And you know, Laura Piana sells a lot of
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sweaters in China and then, you know, in all other stores all over the world, they use Salesforce, but in China, it's
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Salesforce on Alibaba. >> It's still your code, but then it resides in their servers for data
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residency stuff. their data residency, their their partnership. It's a totally
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unique relationship. It's the only place in the world that we do such a thing.
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>> Yeah. And it has to be all the data has to be kept in China. All the data has to
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be accessible by the CCP. >> That's why it's so extraordinary. By the
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way, what Elon has, you know, Elon has Tesla in China, no partnership. He's the
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only one. He has a phenomenal relationship with Shei. When you look at she and um Elon together, notice how
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differential and respectful they are of each other. And here is these AI cars with all these cameras, Americanmade,
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you know, um Chinese factories driving around China. That is pretty incredible. >> How do you think he pulled that off? Is
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that just a one-off exception? >> I think Elon's the greatest salesman in
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the world. That's how >> I mean the cynical take on a chim would be they wanted him there and they wanted
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to study the company and the innovation and they have now become the biggest competitor uh with their EVs and so it
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is a pretty coopetition I guess it would be the cynical way to do >> I want one of those new BYD golf you
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know uh uh what do you call those with the doors that flip flip up >> Gwing
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>> Gwing I want one of those Gwing BYDs they have some cool cars have you seen
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those. >> They're cool, but they're not safe. >> They're incredible.
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>> They're talking in this in this they they said they're talking about bringing
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some of those cars to the US. That would be incredible. >> Uh would hollow out the entire
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automotive industry here if we had $20,000, $30,000 cars from China. It would be the end of the US automotive
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industry overnight. And uh Tim Cook's there. He has to store all his data there. That's been a pretty
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controversial issue for him because Freedberg, if anybody has private information or is a dissident, Tim Cook
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has to give that data over to the Chinese Communist Party. How do you think this plays in America visav the
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midterms? Freedberg, Americans feel ignored, inflation over 3% and they look at the Iran war as a betrayal by
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President Trump and they look at China as not material to their well-being. So when you look at Trump being on a
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six-month timeline for the midterms and he's only got two more years in office
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after that, you got she who's working off of a hundredyear playbook. How does
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that dynamic play out with Trump and the midterms and his core constituency, MAGA, which is now evolving into America
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first, America only? And this kind of is is rubbing that group of people the wrong way.
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>> I think the second and third order effects of anything that comes out of
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China is what's going to be most consequential to the average voter, which is job security and income
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security and income growth. And then cost of living impact. The cost of living impact would be if there can be
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some deflationary effect from a trade deal that makes access to goods lower price for Americans. And then anything
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that America is exporting, there's increased demand. Like there's a follow-on effect to the soybean export
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market. There's a follow-on effect obviously to the oil export market. There's a
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follow-on effect to for example technology and software being exported. So that increases economic productivity
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in the US and increases job security income. And then the other side of the trade deal is can we get stuff that
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Americans really care about and make it cheaper. Can people now buy stuff at the
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store that drops in price by 30 40% where we've kind of tariffed and reduce trade that increases the price of
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things. So if those deals kind of get worked out, people will see things get cheaper at the store and they'll feel
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good about kind of their income security. And I think that could be positive. I think that's what's
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ultimately going to make people make the blue red decision when they go to the polls in November.
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>> That's the schizophrenic nature of this chimoth. We have Americans who very much
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want cheap goods from China and then we have last year all these tariffs being put on and we have this great
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decoupling. So, how do you handicap the midterms, Trump's timeline and she's
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timeline and what their goals are and then I guess we'll get to Taiwan after
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that. >> I don't know. No, it's I think it's a little bit above my pay grade. But what
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I will say is that the midterms I think are probably going to swing more based on these recent jerrymandering rulings
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from the Supreme Court and what happened in the Virginia Supreme Court and what's
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going to happen in the state legislatures of these red states and some of these blue states more than
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what's going to come out of this summit with with President Xi. So let me just
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put that over here. And I think that money is getting organized. There was an article in the New York Times this week
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which really surprised me, but the largest donor in the in this election cycle is Andre and Horowitz.
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>> Yeah. What is that about? Yeah. >> I think it's because they're they're
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trying to establish themselves as part of the financial firmament of America, which I think strategically as a
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business makes a lot of sense. Like they're in the AUM business, right? So they can't stop at 100 billion of AUM.
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They're marching towards a trillion. they're going to be the next Blackstone,
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which I think is an incredible feat and they're building a juggernaut of a business. But I think they also realize
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that politics is now a permanent part of that if they're going to be investing in
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higher quantum more geopolitically influenced parts of the capital cycle and parts of the economy. So I think the
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midterms are largely that the money that's going to be raised plus the gerrymandering that will get done and
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undone over the next few months. Again I think I think the the Chinese and the and the Americans have a very strong
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incentive to kind of divide up the world. Like I think the future at this point you have these critical resource
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inputs. China has a strangle hold. You have energy and intelligence AI where America has a
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strangle hold on one and an effective strangle hold on the other which is energy and I think there's a trade there
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to be done and as long as you can negotiate what a reasonable give and take is I think they're just going to
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find common ground like does China really need to be in Chile and Venezuela and Panama? Probably not. Does America
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have to have an incredibly strong point of view about the straight of Malaa? Probably not. And so there's probably a
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trade to be done so that we can get their rare earths, they can get some more oil, everybody can be happy, and we
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can all find abundance. >> Yeah. The the key issue here is China is and most people are, you know,
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chinophobic, but China has serious systematic issues with population, with their real estate, with their GDP. All
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of this is in decline. And I think she most of all is concerned about another Tianaan Square if he
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doesn't get more people working. They've had the largest growth of any middle
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class you know in history. They have the largest middle class in the world. I think uh you were sort of referencing
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that Mark with luxury goods and luxury goods providers are going there but it's
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tenuous uh >> and that's the number one by the way that is the number one point of focus of
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President Xi. President Xi's focus has been getting 500 million people from poverty into the middle class.
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>> It's not exactly how we think about the world in the United States. That's the
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main focus of the political leader and and he's achieved that. That that has
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been an incredible accomplishment >> and and but it's at risk right now
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because their GDP is falling. They need their factories to operate. They're being undercut by other regions. And
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then of course Taiwan is what they want uh most of all and supremacy in you know
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their part of the world. >> I'm not convinced of that actually. >> I think what they want Oh, I mean I
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think we just kind of said it and to summarize they they want to have you know economic success. They want to
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continue to grow their middle class. They want to continue to have a healthy economy. They want more trade. I thought
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it was interesting that they're talking about Trump is talking about not only
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having the board of peace now he wants a board of trade. That was a discussion we've never heard before today. Then uh
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we have she saying I want the wider door. Then we have all these folks there are selling their products. Two people
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we didn't mention the co Visa and the CEO of Mastercard are on the trip. Now
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why is that? Because if you look at you know commerce in China it is dominated by companies like Alibaba and and these
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organization who use these super apps. It's not really all the way open for a
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Visa and a Mastercard. That would be incredible for those executives. So in the same way that we want to sell
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airplanes, we want to sell chips, Nvidia, the Qualcomm coristiano is also there, we want to sell soybeans, we want
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to sell payment services, we want to sell everything. The more economic collaboration and cooperation you can
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get between the two countries, the more peace you're going to have. I think 100%
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I agree. >> Three, three hard questions, Mark. Uh, should we be selling them the latest
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chips? Yes or no? In your mind, >> I think it's irrelevant at this point. I
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think that the Chinese models are as competitive as these US models and they've learned to make these models
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without having the highest end chips. I think the highest end chips is kind of more of a ego gratification for us. We
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have Blackwell, we have this, we have that. But when you look at their models, their models are excellent. They fast
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follow us. You know, the best models we had ago, they have now. >> Should they should we just sell it to
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them since they're figuring it out anyway, Mark? >> We probably should just sell whatever we
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can at this point. Got it. >> And uh I think that as I said, I think the more economic cooperation and
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collaboration is better. And if you want peace, I think that this >> I think Taiwan, it's kind of a circle
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back to that. Yeah. >> Freeberg, uh, your take on chips. Should we sell them latest chips? And then
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Chimat, I want to get the answer to that question from each of you. >> I think it's inevitable that they get
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there. I, by the way, I do think this is one of the key aspects of this deal. I've said this before, but maybe Taiwan
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becomes less relevant to the US and to China as both China and the US um, mainland FAB. So, as we build out our
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own >> manufacturing capacity here in the US, and I know we've struggled and there are
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fits and starts and issues with it and whatnot, but the the TSMC facility in Arizona is running, they're printing,
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and if it works and they figure out how to scale it. There'll be other facilities in the US and then China's
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mainlanding with Huawei standing up a lot of facilities. They've got a multi-
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I think I talked about this on one of the shows, a multi-deion government investment in ensuring
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competitiveness not just with fabs but also with semiconductor manufacturing equipment so that they don't get cut off
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on the supply chain with companies like ASML blocking sales into mainland. So as
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they build out their own semiconductor capital equipment systems and their own fabs, does Taiwan really matter? Is
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there really that much of a security risk to the United States and to China in that sense? And perhaps what
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everyone's focused on, which is this pivot point around Taiwan. Maybe it's
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not that the US is selling Taiwan down the river, but it's just that no one gives a [ __ ] anymore. So, you know,
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there may be this kind of cultural moment for China where they want to at some point say, "Hey, by 2040," which I
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think is what I've heard, they want to be able to kind of, you know, bring Taiwan fully into the sphere. maybe the
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US shouldn't care that much at that point from a economic and security perspective. So I think that's that's
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one of the things that's happening that >> so you're in the camp of sell the chips
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to them and it will demotivate the TSMC or the capture of those fast. >> Put it this way. I think the more the
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global productivity index can climb, the better off all humans will be. So the question is, do you really want the west
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to see their productivity index climb and then you're effectively forcing conflict and forcing issues with the
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east? Or if we all grow our productivity index, we all make more stuff, everyone
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benefits, everyone has better jobs, everyone makes more money, everyone has access to more stuff, the cost of goods
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comes down for everyone, doesn't that make the world a safer and more secure
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place? >> Sure. So I think this idea that like technology should be held to one uh side
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of the world and not given to the other side of the world is inevitably going to
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lead to conflict or increase the probability of conflict. Whereas if you let technology diffuse and proliferate,
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everyone benefits and conflict indices go down. >> It's commoditized, you know, and
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everybody has access to it. So then it it becomes >> you give everyone a higher standard of
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living and you give everyone's economy a boost and you give everyone less reason
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to fight with each other. Since you went there with Taiwan, should we take our arm sales off of the table, Freedberg?
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And should we ask China to not sell arms to Iran? >> Yes, we should ask China to not sell
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arms to Iran. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> I don't know what there is. What is
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there to talk about there? Because I think what she wants is for us to not sell arms to Taiwan. So, would you make
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that trade, I guess, is what I'm saying. >> Oh, yeah. I mean, that's a good
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question. And I think in that context that's that's a nuance one. I don't
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>> that's why I bring it up because that seems to be >> generally you're right. Yeah. I mean
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generally that's probably a a trade that you know that should be kind of trade do
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the deal. >> So you say make the trade >> chimath. I mean I kind of know
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>> we're 18 months from Taiwan not being an important moment of conversation the way
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it is today. Why 18 months? because we are at a point where we're probably 1
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to2 nanometers away from being able to do what we need Taiwan to strategically do for us. And so as we scale up our
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chip fabs, as we get more capacity and interestingly there are these orthogonal technologies being developed. I don't
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know if you guys saw but neuralink was showcasing now a machine that is literally operating at the
00:25:09
almost nanometer scale to do the brain operations for the implantation all automatically. So when when you when you
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have the dexterity and the capability mechanically to make these things, the real reason then is a very different one
00:25:21
than what it is today. Today it's economic and if you take that off the table, I think we'll have a very
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different attitude to Taiwan. That's number one. Number two, sell the chips.
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>> And the reason we should sell the chips is we want Nvidia to win. We do not want
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to give enough oxygen for Huawei to then all of a sudden emerge and have a version of a chip that works. And what
00:25:38
Mark said is totally right. These models are catching up. They're almost at the
00:25:43
same pace. So the more important thing, Jason, is probably we should all agree is just like let's have a reasonable KYC
00:25:50
for how the models get used so that you know somebody in a basement doesn't cook
00:25:54
up some boweapon. Meanwhile, sell the chips. Proliferate. Let Jensen win. I'd
00:26:00
rather he win than Huawei win. >> Mark, I'm going to give you the last
00:26:02
word, but I'm going to force you to answer a hard question. China sets up a blockade around Taiwan and they decide
00:26:08
they're taking it. Should the US defend it? Yes or no? I I've said this for
00:26:12
years. I I don't agree with Neil Ferguson on that point. I think that this is a nonsense issue. I think China
00:26:17
and Taiwan will reconcile. I think that uh Well, first of all, I do want to schedule though Chimath for that neural
00:26:24
link. Um next Tuesday 5:00 we can drill your brain. Chimoth, can I get you in? >> What are you trying to do? Put some
00:26:31
empathy into Chimoth. I talked to Elon. He said it doesn't. You just drill right
00:26:35
in. There's a and boom. And then well, you can get hooked up. It is the craziest thing.
00:26:41
>> I know. I got you scheduled at 5:00 on Tuesday tomorrow. Hold your hand if
00:26:46
you're too nervous. >> And by the way, finally had a hard literally like
00:26:56
for a even better show. >> Abs. It would be incredible. Yes. And uh I would laugh and I would giggle. We
00:27:05
could get into show tunes here. Free break. I know you're um Yeah. not big on
00:27:09
on the show too. >> If I only had a heart. >> If I only had a brain.
00:27:13
>> A heart. A brain. And what's the third one? >> If I only had a neural link.
00:27:19
>> You got to give you courage. REEDBERG. >> OKAY, move on. >> All right, let's move on here.
00:27:27
>> Your [ __ ] By the way, I took kids. >> Tim stayed home. I took his kids to the
00:27:32
Wizard of Oz at the sphere. It was incredible. If you haven't seen it, >> yeah. do something enriching with my
00:27:40
kids or hit the crafts table. >> No, I I'll be honest with you. I get a
00:27:45
little freaked out in large >> like groups of people. >> Yeah, I get I get a No, just just like
00:27:53
when there's a lot of people, I get very nervous. >> Really? >> Is this because of your newfound
00:27:58
celebrity? Is this is that the issue or just always like No, I don't even want
00:28:01
to go there. I just have these bad thoughts of like, oh my god, what if something happens? How do we get out and
00:28:06
like >> terrorist attack? panic disorder. I don't know. Yeah, exactly. You have panic disorder.
00:28:12
>> Panic disorder. >> I don't I don't like these large spaces
00:28:14
with lots of people. I get a little winded up. >> Anyway, your kids had a great time.
00:28:18
Great show. >> Tony Robbins lives very near you, Shimoth. Don't you think we can get that
00:28:22
to happen? >> Yeah. Let's get Tony Robbins in there to clear that blockage. You're a Tony
00:28:26
Robbins guy, Mark. Why are you so into Tony Robbins? >> I love Tony Robbins. I had him at my
00:28:30
conference this week. It was incredible. Actually, he did an incredible presentation.
00:28:33
>> Did he unlock for you your success? He claims to that he has you on the roster
00:28:38
of $50,000 a year CEOs? >> I am the number one fan of Tony Robbins. So I mean
00:28:44
>> what percentage of your success is attributed to Tony's mentorship?
00:28:47
>> Hey, if it wasn't for Tony Robbins, I don't think there would be a sales
00:28:50
force. So there you go. >> Can you actually no jokes aside, can you tell us like what like what like what
00:28:56
were those big kind of blockages and how did you how did he help you or how did you work through it?
00:29:00
>> Just focusing on hey the questions you know the quality of your questions is
00:29:04
the quality of your life. It's that insight and just are you asking yourself
00:29:07
the right questions. What do you want? What's important to you? How are you getting it? What is preventing you from
00:29:12
having it? How will you know that you have it? Just no one had ever said that to me. And then it was just like clear
00:29:17
to me, wait, I need to write that down. Like what do I really want right now? What is my point of focus?
00:29:23
>> And that is what gave me motivation as soon as I got that clarity. I mean, a
00:29:28
lot of us do it automatically, but that's not where I was when I was a kid. That's for sure.
00:29:32
>> Did you run across the coals? Did you do any of that kind of stuff? >> Oh, I've many times.
00:29:36
>> Really? >> Yeah, of course. >> Okay, there it is, folks. >> Hey, we can go together.
00:29:41
>> Uh, absolutely. We had Tony on the show. I tried to get in there and understand
00:29:45
his psychology, but he just had us do breathing exercises. All right. The uh All-In Summit is happening again. Fifth
00:29:53
year in a row. Wow. We've been doing this for a while. Allin.com/events September 13th, 14th, and 15th. We'll
00:30:00
have you back, Mark, in year six. But when you score so highly on a keynote, we give you two years off so that we can
00:30:07
build up the anticipation. So coming in 2027, our guy Mark Benning off. But for this year, uh, allin.com/events.
00:30:15
Okay. Topic two, AI's impact. >> By the way, real quick, can can I just
00:30:18
do a quick PSA? >> A public service announcement coming. >> Public service announcement.
00:30:22
>> Yes. >> Nick, just pull up this link. This dog named Scooter needs a home.
00:30:27
>> Okay. >> Promise my wife I do this. Don't get Don't get mad at me. This dog named
00:30:31
Scooter needs a home. He's in Baldwin Park. Dog's about to die. Lives in
00:30:35
Baldwin Park at the Animal Care and Control. They're overwhelmed in LA. There are so many homeless street dogs
00:30:40
that are being collected. They're all being put to sleep. >> Wow. >> Someone give this dog a home.
00:30:43
>> Gorgeous dog. >> Scooter. >> Good dog. >> Link. Link will be on the YouTube
00:30:47
channel. Thank you very much. >> Are you getting a little emotional, Freeberg, about this dog being put down?
00:30:52
>> I just don't like these, you know, all these street dogs. like they they didn't
00:30:55
choose that situation they were in and then they all end up kind of getting pulled in by animal care and control and
00:31:00
then they all get put to sleep. Kind of sucks. You're a dog guy. Come on. You
00:31:04
got to have a heart. >> No, I have a big heart. Chimath, it's $10,000 to keep these dogs alive for
00:31:08
another week. Can we count on you for that donation? >> Any purebred white golden retrievers in
00:31:14
that bunch? >> No, they're just muts. Just muts. >> We have a cat that we got at the shelter
00:31:19
actually. >> Kind of a story. walked into the shelter looking for a cat. All of a sudden,
00:31:24
we're in the shelter. This cat's like coming at, you know, my kids and all of
00:31:27
a sudden they're, "Okay, we'll take this cat." What is this cat's name?
00:31:31
>> This cat's name is Cloud. >> Cloud. >> That's our cat.
00:31:35
>> Wow. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. We have Cloud the cat. >> All right. I like it. That's awesome.
00:31:41
>> All right. AI's impact on software rippling through the market. Mark,
00:31:45
you're on the front lines here. >> Thank you for reminding me. >> Yeah. Well, I mean in pain and suffering
00:31:50
are lessons, right? I think the Buddha and Tony Robbins both taught us that and the only way to the other side is
00:31:56
through as you know, Mark. So, Salesforce down a whopping 37% 90 billion in losses for you. service now
00:32:03
42% workday 45% 180 billion in market cap's been lost and the assumption mark is that AI is
00:32:13
going to make it unnecessary for you to use Slack or Salesforce or HubSpot whatever it happens to be that you'll
00:32:18
just ask your AI to solve this for you and we'll all look at a piece of glass
00:32:24
and have no actual software the AI will just tell us what to do what's your response to the fear the criticism and
00:32:32
how are you managing this massive change internally? >> You're right. It's the SAS apocalypse.
00:32:37
Um, I mean, it's not my first SAS apocalypse, honestly, but it's the current SAS apocalypse. So, we are all
00:32:42
now drinking at Salesforce Esprillas. And, uh, we actually have a pet Sasquatch as well. Yeah, we're all a
00:32:50
little more sassy. That's what I would say. That's number one. >> You bring the sass to sass.
00:32:55
>> We got to bring sass to sassy, you know. And then, >> well, you've always been a sassy guy.
00:32:59
>> Yeah. And then number two is look the market is rerated. It's not a mystery.
00:33:04
Everybody knows you know you guys have been talking about it for a while. I've
00:33:07
been living it. So the market software market's rerated. It happens every now
00:33:11
and then. There are cycles. You know I've been doing Salesforce for 27 years
00:33:15
enterprise software for 40 and the market's rerated. So you mentioned HubSpot. They're trading at two times
00:33:22
sales. I've never seen that before. They just had a great quarter. We saw a lot
00:33:27
of great quarters. I looked at the top 10 major enterprise software companies. They all had great quarters and they're
00:33:33
all trading in two time sales. So why? Because of everything you just said. There's like, you know, a hypnosis
00:33:39
around AI and, you know, we haven't seen it show up in the numbers yet. If it
00:33:44
shows up in the numbers, maybe people will be right. Right now, all we know is there's still a lot of enterprise
00:33:50
software being sold in the world. >> So you've been through this. It's not
00:33:53
your first time. >> This is not my first apocalypse. I mean, I remember the cases apocalypse of 2020
00:34:00
when COVID happened and all of it, you know, everything collapsed. There was the great cases apocalypse in 2016.
00:34:08
What's that? >> In all sincerity, what's your strategy and how do you deal with,
00:34:12
>> you know, your internal team? Obviously, they are compensated through, you know,
00:34:16
stock and this is headwind and you have competition for employees from OpenAI, Anthropic, and SpaceX. So, how do you
00:34:24
deal with uh rallying the troops and then how do you develop a strategy? >> Well, you're right. I mean, it's a lot
00:34:31
easier to be a private company right now where you don't have to be rationalized
00:34:35
by the public markets. If you're in the public markets and you get rerated, that's the reality of being in the
00:34:40
public markets. And I think that for what I tell my employees, what I just told my employees is look, you can't get
00:34:46
drunk on the stock price. If you are like focused on today all the time and that is how you're getting, you know,
00:34:52
your emotional state, it it's not going to work for you. You have to find a different anchor. So I try not to pay
00:34:59
really a lot of attention to it. I'm focused on my customer success. How is our revenue? Look, we'll do over 46
00:35:05
billion this year, more than 16 billion in cash flow. We have more than 83,000 employees. These are the things that I'm
00:35:11
focused on. What is the level of customer success that we're delivering? That's a really important I can't
00:35:17
control the stock price. There's nothing I can do. And for our employees, they
00:35:22
can't control it either. That they need to believe in the company and the quality of the success they're
00:35:27
delivering to customers in the long term. And then you look at the market, you look at these other companies, not
00:35:32
just us. They're doing great. And I mean, I saw some great numbers, but it doesn't really matter. The market's
00:35:38
rerated. >> Well, you've got all that free cash flow. You've been great at acquisition.
00:35:43
So, I'm sure you're uh >> I've bought some great companies, by the
00:35:46
way. Everything's a little cheaper. I like that. >> Yeah. Chimoth, what's your take on this?
00:35:50
You've been pretty critical of the SAS space in previous episodes, pointing out, hey, how durable are these
00:35:58
revenues? So, what's your take? >> I think the low end of the market is
00:36:03
basically finished. I think there there is no safe space. I think the high end of the market where Mark operates, where
00:36:12
the large monoliths operate is quite safe and the tell was this week. The the deployment company deal
00:36:21
basically shows you what OpenAI is running into. So, you know, you have to put in $4 billion. You get all of these
00:36:29
folks. You gave them a 17.5% preferred guaranteed return for what? essentially to stand up a competitor to Ernston
00:36:38
Young, Anderson, Deote, PWC, Cognizant, etc. If you just look at that, that doesn't actually mathematically make
00:36:46
that much sense if you look at what those companies are actually trading at. But why is OpenAI doing this? I think
00:36:54
why is because at the high end of the market where all the action is, what people are finding is, hey, hold on a
00:37:01
second. This is a lot harder than we thought. It's not like boop boop boop put in a put in a prompt and beep boop
00:37:06
it all works. It's not how it works. >> And so I think I think we're
00:37:12
>> I think we're a little oversold. >> And I now I think this consolidation and
00:37:16
the rerating can happen in the opposite direction. So what is the opposite trade?
00:37:21
>> The opposite trade is who has constructive net dollar retention, who has negative churn that's been really
00:37:28
predictable, which is a way of saying who has the best relationships. meaning they're inside the CXOs and the seauite.
00:37:35
They have relationships with the CEOs and they're trusted and they've been
00:37:39
around for 20 years. Those guys, I think, are positioned to crush because eventually, Jason, the next trade that
00:37:46
has to happen is when the public markets become a little bit less breathless about AI and they ask one simple
00:37:53
question. Okay, guys, you've spent $3 trillion in the last four years. What is
00:37:58
the ROI of these tokens? And what's going to happen is they're going to have to go to guys like Mark
00:38:05
and other people and say, "Please sell my tokens." And that's the next shoe to
00:38:11
drop. If you if you had to ask me. So I think you're going to see these revenues
00:38:15
which are like way out of whack like the multiples on revenue, multiples on assets, multiples of they're not even
00:38:19
multiples of those will come way back down and I think these go back up and you'll find a balance.
00:38:26
>> Yeah. And you've uh initiated what could only be described as an unprecedented
00:38:31
massive stock buyback mark 50 billion. >> I think it's the one of the largest in
00:38:36
history. Yeah, we we're you know we we want to buy back as much as we can and I
00:38:43
would just say that you know look at a high level look there's awesome new capabilities like these coding agents
00:38:51
are awesome. Enthropic is awesome. like I am going to probably use $300 million of Enthropic this year at Salesforce
00:38:58
coding. Everything's going to be cheaper to make. It's more efficient. I can do
00:39:03
things that I just could not do before. I can go faster than ever before. I can implement my software and sell it at the
00:39:09
same time. I've never been able to do that before. I can break through obstacles that I've had, you know, just
00:39:16
by focusing because I have coding agents and humans together working together. Today I have humans, agents and headless
00:39:25
platforms all interoperating never before. So the opportunity for my own company and the efficiency that I have
00:39:33
in my own company in service and support in distribution in marketing across the
00:39:39
board is unprecedented. What I can do for our customers unprecedented and you know to that point my gosh have you seen
00:39:46
Anthropic? I mean it is a rocket ship that will not stop because you can use this product to do these incredible
00:39:54
amazing things and then complement it with platforms like ours. It's you know
00:39:59
it's it's it's it's impossible to describe what we're going to be able to
00:40:03
do for customers. It's going to be awesome >> and never waste a crisis. You've been
00:40:06
super focused on the efficiency of the company, a headcount, share buybacks, and I'm guessing you're looking at M&A.
00:40:15
So, it's not your finished up one of our biggest deals ever, Informatica. I think
00:40:21
it was eight or nine billion dollars. It's been in it's been awesome because
00:40:27
none of this stuff works if you don't have context. You know, the AI is very
00:40:31
probabilistic. that is it can kind of kind of figure things out but it needs to be grounded in real data and it needs
00:40:37
to have that semantic layer. That means it needs to be locked down into the truth into a single source of truth or
00:40:43
it just cannot work well. And so our customers want more harmonized data, federated data, integrated data. So we
00:40:51
bought Informatica. Our customers want our apps to use those large language models to be able to provide not just
00:40:58
automation to their employees but also to their agents just like we just said. So like if you call 1800 no software
00:41:05
right now for the first time in 27 years you talk to agent force hey agent force
00:41:10
what's happening but then after it authenticates you and you get in the system and it doesn't know who you are
00:41:16
then boom it'll autoes escalate you to a human being who says oh I can see everything you've been doing oh yeah you
00:41:23
just need to resolve this this and that and so that trinity of the phone the web
00:41:28
and the human being are all together it's all made possible buy this AI. We just could never do that before. That is
00:41:35
awesome. >> Was it controversial, Mark, to make Slack headless? Was that a big decision
00:41:40
or was that a was everybody kind of mostly on board with that? >> Well, we were the first to, you know,
00:41:45
the way that our platform is architected and Chimoth, you know it so well cuz you're coding your coding agents and the
00:41:51
company you're building can run right on top of it and build awesome stuff also.
00:41:55
So, you know, number one is we were the first with an XML API, a SOAP API, a REST API, now a CLA API, MCP API. We
00:42:06
always wanted to have a platform that had every API possible. And our apps are not hardcoded where we had to cut the
00:42:13
top off of them. They've always be embedded inside our platform. So now we can stream our apps out through a new
00:42:19
API called AXL and I can manifest it into any large language model or device or anything and it just works better
00:42:28
actually. >> I think that you know when Jack Dorsey wrote that memo Jal and part of what he
00:42:34
said is >> he he's going to try to run his company by building a world model. Yes. My
00:42:39
initial thought was, well, where is the context, Mark? What you said before, where's the semantic understanding to
00:42:45
create a world model? And a lot of it for a lot of companies is actually in Slack.
00:42:49
>> It's in Slack and email. Yeah, those two places. >> I showed you that Slackbot, Jason. I
00:42:54
mean, the thing is all because you run your company on Slack, all your DMs, all your channels, we're reading that now
00:43:01
through the AI and we can tell you more about your business than you know >> because Slackbot is reading stuff that
00:43:08
>> you know, nobody knew what was happening and like I'm using that myself, but I
00:43:13
can then connect it into other things. So, I have the ability to go into Salesforce and Google and everything.
00:43:18
And so, when I'm on Slackbot, I can ask it any question about my company. What
00:43:23
are my top five deals? What am do what are my employees upset about? What are the top three things I need to focus on?
00:43:30
And then boom, I get the information because it has the data. >> I think you should really look at SL
00:43:36
making Slack more open and cheaper and getting more of that context because there are limitations in terms of
00:43:45
getting your data out based on like which plan you're on. It's just too convoluted. But once I upgraded to a
00:43:52
higher plan and you know it's whatever 6 12 18k for our small company I was able
00:43:57
to get more and more context to my openclaw plexity computer and claude we and we're testing all of those and today
00:44:06
I wrote literally before I got on the show a new prompt that is every two hours in our Slack tell me what
00:44:14
decisions are being made who's making those decisions um and what you would handicap those decisions. If you were my
00:44:21
chief of staff, if you were a CEO or if you were a board member and I created personas to now evaluate decision-
00:44:28
making going on just >> I have to show you the new version of Slack. You're going to love it, Jason.
00:44:32
And you know that open AI and enthropping and every AI company is standardized on Slack. Yes.
00:44:38
>> And by the way, and our core sales cloud and service clouds as well. >> So I got to show you what we're doing.
00:44:44
Yeah. So fun. >> What's your advice to let's say you were running a software company that was like
00:44:51
before the AI wave and you're private, right? There's a bunch of these companies that were supposed to go
00:44:56
public, didn't go public. What should they do? Like what do those boards do?
00:45:00
What >> they here's some Kleenex for them for all their tears >> because they're I mean I talked to these
00:45:06
CEOs. They're crying. What my market cap? I'm not getting paid for my work.
00:45:10
Guys, grow up. You know, that's what I love about the public markets. They rationalize everything all the time. So
00:45:16
>> great, be in the public markets. You want to be in a private market. Your
00:45:20
valuation is fantasy land until somebody's actually going to pay you. So I just tell them, hey, you got to focus
00:45:27
on your revenue, focus on your customers, focus on your cash flow, focus on your profitability, focus on
00:45:32
your innovation. How are you going to add value to your customers? That's what's really truly important.
00:45:39
>> Freeberg, any thoughts from you? We're doing a big Salesforce implementation at
00:45:42
O'Hollow and I I would say that one of my observations over the last six months
00:45:47
because we've talked a lot about using these generative tools is we've kind of
00:45:52
dropped all the vertical software but we're doubling down our investment in horizontal tools. So like we're
00:45:58
investing heavily in these platform capabilities that then we're able to build apps and workflows on top of them
00:46:05
that are specific to our business rather than try and buy an offtheshelf app or workflow tool. So I think that there's
00:46:11
kind of a really interesting moment right now where we talked about this last time you could kind of discern
00:46:15
between founder and non-founder enterprise software. I also think that there's this kind of vertical horizontal
00:46:20
shift where they're kind of trading the same right now but you could probably
00:46:24
break them. You could break that trade. So, I think there's probably a good arbitrage there.
00:46:28
>> I think everyone who wants to sell those potato seeds, you know, is going to need
00:46:34
>> some tools to sell them. But the thing that's kind of cool is, you know, we
00:46:38
have 15,000 salespeople now. So, they're out there selling these products like
00:46:42
Slack and selling to David and so forth. But here's the thing that's interesting.
00:46:47
In the last 27 years, we calculated somewhere between 20 to 30 million people, we didn't call back. We did not
00:46:55
call them back >> because we didn't have the people to do it. So just this week I called back
00:47:01
50,000 people, you know, just through agents so I can qualify. I just bought a company called qualified so I can
00:47:09
qualify the agents, call people back the BDR, the SDR function. I can go outbound. I can do things I could never
00:47:15
do before. That is made possible by this AI automation linking it then to the apps. You can go to another level.
00:47:24
Yeah. Okay. Breaking news. I want to get everybody's take on this. Open AAI in a
00:47:28
breaking news story is considering suing Apple over their Chat GPT partnership. As we all know, two years ago, Apple and
00:47:36
Open AAI announced Chat GPT would integrate into Siri, iOS, MacOSS. But according to Bloomberg, the deal has
00:47:43
gone so poorly for OpenAI that they might sue Apple for breach of contract. Here are OpenAI's gripes. Apple chat GPT
00:47:51
integration within Siri requires users to specifically say chat GPT to get results. We probably all experienced
00:47:57
this if we haven't given up on Siri, which is the worst personal assistant ever created. Uh Apple hasn't it's
00:48:03
discretionad to the highest level. Just discretad with this product. How do you get there first and you remain worst?
00:48:13
Apple hasn't promoted the integration at all and users are still overwhelmingly
00:48:18
going to the standalone chat GPT app or others. OpenAI expected billions of subscription
00:48:25
revenue from the deal and it hasn't come to fruition. According to Bloomberg,
00:48:30
Apple's side of the story is, hey, they have concerns about Open AI's privacy
00:48:34
practices. Maybe they don't trust the guy in charge over there, which was a reoccurring theme in the lawsuit. And
00:48:40
they're annoyed that OpenAI, and here is the palace entry, they're upset that
00:48:48
OpenAI is building hardware to compete with Apple and that they recruited their design guru, Johnny IV.
00:48:58
Mark Beni off, you know, the players. What is going on here? Yeah, >> you got to trust Sam Alman and Open AI.
00:49:07
I love him. But let's just upscale this conversation just one second. Listen,
00:49:13
what has happened? What happened is we have these LLMs. They starting to come out come out. Every company's kind of
00:49:20
chosen a slightly different path. You had Elon, he went out, he had Grock and he kind of started building these
00:49:25
companions and sex bots and all this kind of stuff going on. And that was a huge focus of his, the sexbot focus.
00:49:32
Then you kind of had OpenAI and they were doing the Sora video thing and they're also doing ad networks and crazy
00:49:38
stuff like that. Then you had Gemini and they had the Nano Banana and then finally you've got Enthropic and they go
00:49:45
we don't know about those sex bots and we don't know about Nano Banana but
00:49:48
we're going to do coding agents. And it turned out Enthropic was right. And all
00:49:52
of a sudden the rocket ship took off and now everybody's like, "Whoa, where did
00:49:56
Enthropic go?" Oh, whoa, they're way up there. And then they're all like, "Where
00:50:00
are all they going to do coding agents to?" And now they're all resetting and
00:50:04
kind of hitting their buttons and going, "Coding agents. Everybody focus, focus.
00:50:07
Kill Sarah, kill this. Get rid of that. Sex bots off." You know, cursor on.
00:50:14
Yeah. And that's where we are right now. And so everybody, look, this is what's
00:50:20
cool about right now is that everybody, it's such a dynamic moment in our industry. It's so exciting that people
00:50:26
have to pivot and you have to be ready to focus and refocus and constantly ask the question like, "What do you want
00:50:32
right now?" And everyone is changing what they really want. And if you looked
00:50:37
at where everybody was a year ago and where they are now, they're in a totally
00:50:42
different place cuz we all know that when Enthropic 46 hit, boom, everyone could code in their companies. And
00:50:49
before that, they really couldn't. It was a little bit of a productivity improvement, but not as much as we
00:50:54
wanted. Now everybody sees this and goes, "Wow, this is unbelievable." We're
00:50:59
even working on technology inside Slack to make it easier for everybody to code.
00:51:04
So I think it's going to be really >> breaking news. Breaking news there.
00:51:08
>> You're going to see some cool stuff with Slack and Code. I'm not ready to talk
00:51:11
about it yet, but there's no question that uh we are in a new moment in coding. I mean Chamas got a whole
00:51:18
company around it. A lot of people have companies around it. There's going to be
00:51:22
before coding was all about humans and like that's where I started. I was 15
00:51:26
years old, Berlin game high school on hands-on keyboard writing video games, you know, basic 68,000 6502,
00:51:35
you know. No, no, now it's like everyone. >> How's that changed your org? Is it the
00:51:40
product manager, the developer, or the UX designer? >> The creator, or did it all blend into
00:51:46
one blended? And who wins? Who wins? It's all blended together. And by the way, to to Mark's point, the hands-on
00:51:53
keyboard thing, you know, most of our engineers just speak. They So it's like
00:51:58
And so, you know, one of our guys just has a foot button operated thing and it just like
00:52:04
that, >> too. Yeah. Whisper. That's all they do. Flow plus. >> It's all talking. Pedal plus whisper
00:52:10
flow and talking. There is no cans on keyboard anymore. >> All right. So, let's get back to this
00:52:14
story here. >> We're going for dolphin flow at Salesforce. >> Dolphins on keyboards. Mahalo for you.
00:52:21
Aalo. Um, Freeberg, two questions. One, now that Sam has shut down the sex spots, how are you filling that void?
00:52:28
And then number two, thank you, Jama. And number two, what's your take on the
00:52:35
strained relationship here between OpenAI and the world and specifically the Apple world?
00:52:42
>> I don't know what to tell you. This that there doesn't seem to be a lot of
00:52:44
long-term partnerships with Open AI. That's a very uh generous way to say it.
00:52:52
What should Apple do? Should they just go back to the loving arms of Google where they made a hundred billion
00:52:59
dollars being partners with them on the search default your alma >> I don't know what to tell I mean look at
00:53:04
the end of the day I think Google has a real opportunity to integrate a Gemini assistant into all of your personal
00:53:10
information and Gemini and calendar >> your Google drive your Google photos
00:53:15
where all of your personal information sits it can become your your point of calendaring your point of asking it
00:53:21
questions about your personal Hey, when did I email this person, etc. And in the enterprise context, I think
00:53:26
that's also up for grabs with G Suite. And so, Google has a real chance to kind
00:53:32
of own that assistant interface. Maybe Salesforce does too, Mark. Apple obviously has an embedded install piece.
00:53:37
How many people are using Apple services for doing all of their mail, for calendaring,
00:53:45
for storing their information? I think a good number. >> Yeah. So that may end up becoming kind
00:53:51
of the way that the world silos out is like you'll have an assistant, but the
00:53:55
assistant for it to be truly useful to you individually, it has to have access to all of your information. Whether it's
00:54:01
in an enterprise context or a personal context, Apple is probably going to need to either build their own or white label
00:54:06
with a partner, could be anthropic, could be someone else >> to get this to really work. But but
00:54:11
they're going to be up against a formidable competitor is my point because I think Google Assistant is
00:54:14
going to end up be being kind of a real kick-ass product once they get this flywheel going. Apple has the clearest
00:54:20
path to becoming, you know, a top two or three player in AI simply by buying something like Perplexity or Mistrol or
00:54:29
or or some AI lab and then using their hardware footprint, which is extraordinary. I just got this MacBook
00:54:36
with 48 gigs of RAM on it with an M5. It is unbelievable. And the new ones with the the Studio coming out are going to
00:54:43
have a terabyte of RAM. they are going to have a clear path to maintaining your privacy running local models and that's
00:54:51
going to solve people's problems. It's going to be very easy to index all your
00:54:55
images without giving the data to OpenAI which nobody trusts or giving it to Gemini. And that's I think a big part of
00:55:03
why they picked the current CEO is because he's an engineer and hardwarebased. I I think the future of
00:55:08
this is going to be local models running on extraordinary desktop hardware. And if you have employees on this level of
00:55:16
hardware running these models local like I have started to do, they become 10 times more valuable than the employees
00:55:22
not running it. I I think Apple's my choice for the next year. >> I'm not a huge believer in these local
00:55:27
models. And the the only reason why is I think you want persistence. You have multiple devices. You have multiple
00:55:33
persona. You're using a web browser in one instance. You're using a different
00:55:36
computer at home in the other. And the idea that you don't have persistence that follows you around in 2026, I think
00:55:42
is a breaking feature. So, I think you're not going to lug around a 5B MacBook Pro everywhere you go so that
00:55:50
you can get knowledge. Oh, wait. You're asking, "Oh, wait. I got a diagnosis
00:55:54
from my doctor. Hold on a second." >> I don't think that's the game on the field. The game on the
00:56:02
field though is >> you will uh be able to use iCloud for this as well. So, it's going to be, you
00:56:08
know, effortlessly. >> So, well, look, give me your opinion on this. I think the thing that you're
00:56:14
assuming is that these form factors don't need to change. And I just wonder like, don't we have an iPhone moment
00:56:20
that we're just all going to be surprised by where somebody shows up and they're like this thing and you're like,
00:56:26
"Oh my god, that's the thing." Do do you know what I mean? like yeah that that's
00:56:31
I >> there's enough ingredients here where somebody's going to cook something up
00:56:35
and then you have to think about Jason the sunk cost of like you know look Apple is incredible
00:56:42
but there that's the product of 40 years 30 years of meticulous process optimization
00:56:48
what do you do if the form factor is totally different and the nature of the device is different how do you pivot
00:56:53
that organization >> you're hitting on something very important and it dovetales with another
00:56:57
story on the docket mirror Mrage released thinking machines new real time world >> that was impressive
00:57:05
>> and this is super impressive and Apple at the same time has patented putting
00:57:10
cameras into your AirPods so you're right and then I use this plug pin I've
00:57:14
talked about it before >> these persistent hardware devices the watch the earpieces are going to know
00:57:18
your entire reality they're going to monitor your entire desktop and this is
00:57:22
going to lead to a a use of tokens that would be a thousand times what user business users are currently using
00:57:30
because the way mirror's and we should have her on the pod or at one of our events. The way her model works
00:57:35
Freedberg is it's watching your desktop. It's listening to all the voices and
00:57:40
then it's watching your webcam all at the same time and every 200 milliseconds
00:57:46
it's uploading it to two different models. One is deep thinking and looking backwards, you know, at a maybe a 30-
00:57:52
secondond clip and the other one's in real time. that will 1,000x the need for
00:57:58
tokens if people are doing this for 8 hours a day cuz it's not the turnbased
00:58:03
here's my latest prompt here's my question I got a response it's in real
00:58:08
time always querying an LLM which is going to require a hardware upgrade to the average desktop Mark Beni off what
00:58:16
are your thoughts on this brave new world >> it's one small step for man one giant
00:58:20
leap towards AGI I think that you said really well. I mean the we are in the we've been so kind of think that LLM is
00:58:29
the beall end all. We're going to go to AGI. I don't really understand how large
00:58:34
language models which are only about language and words and we know how it works. It's one word one word therefore
00:58:39
the next word is this is going to get us to where we want to go to which is minority report or um
00:58:45
>> agreed >> all the science fiction movies that we've seen. But what we saw and and I
00:58:49
think Jason you'd really articulated that super well by the way multiensory models and multiensory models. Well,
00:58:56
here's a good one. Oh yeah, me. I'm a multiensory model in a biological computer. I'm a multiensory model. I've
00:59:03
got these eyes, ears, mouth, you know, work. Sometimes some brain, heart, whatever. And some other things going on
00:59:09
too that I don't even understand. And it's all running in this biological
00:59:13
computer. I'm not exactly a large language model, though I do have one. sometimes. So I would say that
00:59:20
multi-ensory models are the next big wave for AI and then but we're still not
00:59:26
at AGI at that point. But those demos like the demo of that model that was pretty everyone should see like that was
00:59:33
pretty awesome. And then I think we can kind of say hm where are we now on this on the path? But I think every model
00:59:42
company is kind of go hold on pivot you know again pivot like saying pivot everybody's pivoting and you're going to
00:59:49
have to pick your poison and where where are you going next you know and you can't do everything you can't
00:59:55
>> you said you were spending 300 million on tokens with anthropic. Now imagine
01:00:00
what this would do to an average, you know, employee if they needed a thousand times the tokens they have now. So
01:00:09
instead of spending 150k in tokens, you got to spend, you know, a hundred million. But you have
01:00:15
>> I don't think that's true. I I don't think that that I think we're getting
01:00:18
brainwashed on that. >> Okay. So explain. >> I think that's a mistake to think that
01:00:22
way. See, I think we are wasting a lot of these tokens. So my coding here's my
01:00:26
I think I convince you this. So here's a here we're using $300 million of
01:00:30
enthropic this year and we're coding we're coding we're coding right the vast
01:00:35
majority of those tokens don't need to go to enthropic there needs to be some
01:00:39
intermediary layer layer that's saying oh oh that one has to go to enthropic
01:00:43
but these ones can handle by smaller models that can route it to the most affordable
01:00:49
for the job it's such an early moment you know it's an early moment and you're
01:00:54
and I want to connect back to what you said before which was brilliant Jason which because the importance of the edge
01:00:59
because the edge and the cloud are going to come together. Okay. And yes, you're
01:01:05
going to have more distributed intelligence. It's going to work together. That's going to makes a ton of
01:01:09
sense what you said. What Chama said was also completely right. You were both right. Then you combine it to this idea.
01:01:17
Let's put it together where we're going. Yes, we're going to have more
01:01:19
distributed intelligence. We're going to have intelligence on the edge. We're
01:01:22
going to have multiensory models. And yes, you're going to do coding. And it's
01:01:26
going to be more efficient though. So to think that it's going to be always so
01:01:30
expensive, that is just the moment of time that we're at right now. And I think there's going to be a hot new
01:01:36
company that's going to come along and say this. I'm going to sit between you
01:01:41
and Anthropic and Open AAI and I'm going to make sure that they you only need
01:01:46
their tokens when you actually need them. >> And that is not really where we are
01:01:51
right now. >> Does that make sense what I'm saying? Like you're like%
01:01:56
>> it's like oh I need a shower and Okay, great. All the water. No, no, no. I just
01:02:01
need some water. I don't need all the water. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> All right. Listen, we uh have two final
01:02:08
topics here. We could talk about anthropic unrolling the dark SPVS and the impact that has on the market. Or we
01:02:15
can go to everybody's favorite science corner. >> Well, do both. Just do a quick uh around
01:02:20
the around the neighborhood. >> Yeah. Okay. Lightning round on uh we'll
01:02:23
do SPVS last. Freeberg, what do you got in Science Corner? Everybody, all the all the Freedberg fans are just
01:02:30
destroyed when we skip it. So, let's give >> a good one. Mark, do you like Science
01:02:33
Corner? No, you do. >> I do. >> Come on. Yeah. >> Only the oceans.
01:02:38
>> Mark is the greatest salesman in Silicon Valley. He loves it all and he wants to
01:02:42
hear more. >> Mark, how did you learn sales? How do we become half as good as you?
01:02:48
>> I'm not a good sal. I'm like a I'm a a geek. >> You are, but you know how to
01:02:53
>> call it a Tony Robbins seminar. Let's go. Walk over the coals together. Let's
01:02:57
roll. >> We're all going to Tony. Put out the coals. We're walking across them.
01:03:01
>> Nick, let's pull up the first chart. This science corner is about the dreaded
01:03:06
El Nino season that is coming up. And so this is a forecast for sea surface temperature anomalies. And basically
01:03:14
what this means is that the ocean at this point has heated up so much that there's now a forecast on ocean
01:03:23
temperatures that are going to exceed anything we have seen in recent history. So we're kind of looking at temperatures
01:03:30
that might be 4° above normal. That doesn't sound like a lot, but let's just
01:03:34
look at this image. That top image is the sea surface temperature anomaly. That means how different the sea surface
01:03:40
or the the ocean temperatures are. Why does that matter? And this is compared to 1877 when we had the biggest El Nino
01:03:47
year ever. And I'll explain what that means in a moment. But why does this all
01:03:51
matter? The reason is the oceans are the battery of weather. What happens at one
01:03:57
part of the year is that the oceans absorb heat energy and absorb absorb absorb gets hotter and hotter and hotter
01:04:03
and then that heat energy is released into the atmosphere and then the atmosphere drives the weather events
01:04:07
that happen all over the world and it becomes somewhat predictable that you can estimate what the weather over the
01:04:13
next year is going to be like based on how the temperatures are sitting in the ocean today. And at this point there is
01:04:19
so much excess energy stored up in the oceans. I'll give you guys a statistic.
01:04:24
It's about 11 million terowatt hours. The whole planet Earth uses 25,000 terowatt hours in a year. So 11 million
01:04:33
extra terowatt hours of energy is currently stored up. That's 500 years worth of human energy in this ocean. And
01:04:39
over the next few months, that energy is going to be released into the atmosphere. And that will absolutely 99%
01:04:46
confidence that will make the upcoming year the hottest year on record by far that humans have ever experienced or at
01:04:52
least that we've experienced in recent history where we didn't have data going
01:04:56
going back a long time. It changes the trade winds which changes how a lot of the weather evolves from a normal
01:05:02
season. It changes the moisture in the atmosphere in certain parts of the world. And I'll just give you some
01:05:08
highlights of what this means. Over the coming year, there will be major atmospheric river events where you just
01:05:13
get water dumped on you in the southwest in California and the Gulf Coast. You'll
01:05:18
have very low snowfall and very high heat waves in the northern part of the US going up to Canada. You guys remember
01:05:23
all those fires a couple years ago in Canada. Interior regions of the US like in Phoenix and and so on. They're
01:05:30
already seeing temperatures at 106 degrees in May. A super El Nino like is forecasted for this year could extend
01:05:36
that duration of these heat domes which could create temperatures that we've
01:05:39
never seen in those areas. Southern Argentina, Chile, Brazil could see record shattering heat waves. And this
01:05:45
is where things start to get a little nasty because when that happens, the crops start to fail. And in many parts
01:05:51
of the world, Brazil, India, Australia, these are critical uh local consumption for large populations, but also major a
01:05:59
export markets. So if Brazil's crop fails, if Australia's wheat crop fails,
01:06:05
Australia's wheat crop goes to places like Indonesia and the Philippines. Hundreds of millions of people depend on
01:06:10
that that wheat crop. Hundreds of millions of people depend on the exports out of Brazil. Brazil is the world's
01:06:15
largest a exporter. And the scariest one of all is if the monsoons fail, which is
01:06:20
now a very high probability event in India. 150 million farmers in India that depend on their agricultural output or
01:06:27
they don't make any money, they can't survive. and one and a half billion
01:06:30
people that depend on that food. So the importance of this El Nino event goes beyond just like an interesting weather
01:06:36
anecdote. But if you think about the second and third effects of this over the next year, you could see energy
01:06:42
prices spiking and electricity spiking and the grid failing in parts of the southwest, commodity prices spiking all
01:06:48
over the world. And then you would see places like uh India, the Philippines, Vietnam starting to face some sort of
01:06:55
unrest if there isn't enough food supply that's coming into those markets. And
01:06:58
then the question in India is a really nasty one because there isn't a really
01:07:01
good solution. India and markets like it that are significantly dependent uh on having their monsoon event but also are
01:07:10
currently facing a shortage of nitrogen based fertilizer because of the crisis with Iran and the straight of Hormuz
01:07:16
which we've talked about as a double whammy. So over the next year in South Asia you could see a calorie deficit and
01:07:23
a major kind of economic crisis that starts to emerge. So, this El Nino event, I just wanted to kind of bring it
01:07:28
up as an interesting science corner because the data now seems pretty confirmed that over the next few months,
01:07:33
we're going to have this record-breaking El Nino and these are the sorts of consequences that will play out over the
01:07:38
next year. >> This is [ __ ] scary. God damn. What do you do about the the food problem?
01:07:44
That's a big problem. >> That's a big problem. And this is the commodity markets are going wild for
01:07:49
this right now. >> Did this did this happen the last time we had an El Nino?
01:07:52
>> Yes. So when we have El Ninos, there's a severity of these sorts of events
01:07:56
happening. >> No, I mean, did we have a food shortage problem in the last El Nino?
01:08:00
>> Oh, yeah. When we have El Ninos, there's food shortages that come out of
01:08:03
Australia, Brazil. You see these events. That's a regular part of the the thing.
01:08:06
The problem this year is the index is so off the charts. It is so far beyond anything we've seen and it's correlated
01:08:13
obviously with the severity that it triggers a crisis that may be, you know, really difficult to manage in a lot of
01:08:19
places. So the US is a net a exporter. So from a US perspective, our big issues to worry about are the fire season. By
01:08:26
the way, this does decrease Atlantic hurricanes. You're going to have fewer hurricanes this year in the uh in the
01:08:30
south, but you know, you have these kind of major storm events that happen in California, the heat waves, electricity
01:08:36
prices. We're probably more stable than other parts of the world. But think about the Brazil, the a export market is
01:08:42
such a significant part of the economy and Brazil has a debt problem that this could end up becoming an economic
01:08:47
problem in some parts of the world in including Brazil. So the the commodity markets are trading this El Nino event
01:08:54
pretty actively right now. It's become kind of a focal area for a lot of folks
01:08:57
in in commodity markets. Can your super seeds help or no? >> That's a longer term solution. But I
01:09:03
mean look, we're like at the end of the day having um this actually a good point, but having genetics a crop
01:09:09
genetics that can adapt to a more rapidly changing climate is going to be critical over the next couple of
01:09:14
decades. Uh that's a big kind of macro for >> another part of this Freedberg that as
01:09:20
certain places heat up they actually become viable places to put crops i.e. Canada or the northern part of the
01:09:28
United States. So we're seeing the actual places you can grow certain crops independent of gen genetic modification
01:09:36
is expanding. In other words, farmlands expanding because of global warming. >> Right? So we increasingly grow soybeans
01:09:42
in Canada. That was not the case. uh two decades ago through both plant breeding
01:09:46
where we've made the genetics adapt but also the warmer temperature the shorter
01:09:49
winters and whatnot they've been able to grow that that crop further north but if
01:09:55
you guys go back a couple of years there were major heat waves and droughts in Australia
01:09:59
>> huge fires yeah >> huge fires but remember that wheat goes to Indonesia it goes to Vietnam it goes
01:10:04
to these countries with hundreds of millions of people dependent on it and then they got to go scramble and find it
01:10:08
elsewhere now on a global basis there's always a a bit of a give and a take but
01:10:13
in a year like this when you have this much energy pumped into the atmosphere, you may not have the given the take and
01:10:19
that's where things start to buckle. >> All right. So, yeah, it's just like an
01:10:23
early warning sign. I know I've given food warnings, food crisis warnings twice before on the show. He gave a
01:10:28
really good one for Ukraine four years ago and it turned out that that warning resulted in a negotiation to allow wheat
01:10:36
to flow out of Ukraine that Russia Ukraine and other folks made a specific carveout in their war to make sure that
01:10:44
famine didn't spread. So >> and the fertilizer export was negotiated at the start of the war as well which
01:10:48
was critical. >> Yeah. >> Uh for sure. >> I think you played a role in raising
01:10:52
awareness for that. So I give you credit to Freeberg Mark. Uh thanks for coming on the program. Sorry that uh at the end
01:10:58
of the program we all want to commit sapuku here but you know we have Dr. Doom and he uh he always loves to end
01:11:04
the show. There he is with an upbeat you want to rap with an upbeat anthropic doomsday starring David Freriededberg
01:11:14
coming to the Marvel franchise in December. Yes. So you thought Robert Downey Jr. was playing him. It's
01:11:19
actually Freedberg. Here's your meme. It's not Mark Beni off's first time uh
01:11:25
here in the SAS apocalypse. >> There it is. First time. >> He's like, I've been doing this before,
01:11:33
boys. I'm buying my stock back. >> Somebody cut that rope. >> Yeah, absolutely.
01:11:39
>> All right, listen. Uh I'll I'll just lightning round this one. Philanthropic
01:11:43
has had enough of the shenanigans of the multi-tiered, multi-layered SPVS being sold to dentists for 10% loadin fees. I
01:11:53
think we all knew this day was coming since it's becoming the wild west. They
01:11:57
called out specific platforms and they said we're going to negate them. Chimoth
01:12:01
Tempest in a teapot or long overdue punishment for bad actors. >> Love Mark said it right. All these
01:12:09
companies should go public and get evaluation and and focus on the higher order bit. And all of these tickytacky
01:12:17
mechanisms that people can use to stay private longer need to get a bullet put in its head. And these SPVS are the
01:12:23
worst. The layered SPVS on SPVS on SPVS. >> By the way, I and I will guarantee you
01:12:29
this. Once SpaceX goes public, once Anthropic goes public, once OpenAI goes public, you're going to see a litany of
01:12:37
these lawsuits back and forth between the purveyors of these SPVS, they should not be allowed.
01:12:42
>> They should be all negated if possible. You can't now you can't unbreak the
01:12:48
eggs. So, I guess you just have to call it what it is. I hope every company adopts this and I hope as a result these
01:12:54
companies go public sooner and they rationalize their equity structure faster. I think it's the right thing to
01:13:00
do. So, I like the fact that anthropic is >> just say it. Descatiad. >> Well, it's not discretziad. I just I I
01:13:06
just think that you are going to have a lot. >> No. Well, you're going to have a lot of
01:13:09
people that are going to be very upset once this SpaceX thing comes out because inevitably, because it happened in Uber,
01:13:14
somebody gets screwed in a layered SPV somewhere that they didn't know and they're going to be like, "What
01:13:19
happened?" >> Read the fine print. You're getting double carry and you paid 10% on the
01:13:23
loadin fee and you paid a price 10% over what the last round was. So, it's a
01:13:28
recipe for disaster. The fine print. for disaster. >> Recipe for disaster. Hey Mark, great
01:13:33
job. Thanks so much for coming back with you guys. Yeah, come back any time. You
01:13:37
were great. Hey, your >> there's a we have a fan question here. This is a fan question that came in
01:13:44
written by your PR department. They want to know when you do your charity work uh
01:13:50
or your innovation as a founder, are you more, >> you know, at this stage in your career,
01:13:55
you're known for both of these things. Are you more Steve Jobs or more Lorraine
01:13:59
Pal right now? What your PR department worked very very deep question they f the best decision I ever made the best
01:14:07
when I started Salesforce we put 1% of our equity 1% of our profit and 1% of all of our employees time into a
01:14:14
foundation. Today we've done more than 10 million hours of volunteerism. We've
01:14:19
given away more than a billion dollars in grants >> and we run over 50,000 nonprofits for
01:14:24
free on our platform. That's just Salesforce. Every I every company should do this.
01:14:30
It's amazing. Pledge11%.org. That's my advertisement for the show. >> Everybody should jump on the 111
01:14:37
platform. Best decision I ever made 27 years ago. Irrespective I've obviously
01:14:41
done a huge amount of personal philanthropy to five hospital. >> You did one that was really I think
01:14:48
personal. Uh Susan Wjeki tragically died of cancer and major. >> You're going to get me crying. Let's not
01:14:54
go there. This is not your time. My best friend. Bestie. My bestie. >> She was a special person, huh?
01:15:00
>> She's a star. >> The best. She was the best. >> Just I mean,
01:15:04
>> I'm not kidding. You're I'm not kidding. >> Tell the audience what was so unique
01:15:08
about Susan. Tell tell them what you're It's a good time to do a remembrance.
01:15:12
>> She This was one of the great people on the planet. Incredible woman. Mother of
01:15:18
five amazing children. Um, and uh, two amazing sisters, great family. Uh, everybody knows Ann, her sister, her
01:15:27
sister Janet at UCSF. Um, sorry, my eyes are tearing up, but I'll just tell you
01:15:32
that, you know, she contracted a very rare form of cancer, passed away too young a couple years ago now. Um, and
01:15:41
she was on our board. She was one of the great people of all time. I'm so grateful that her family is focusing on
01:15:47
building a new foundation to go after this rare cancer. Uh we're backing it. I
01:15:52
think everybody should. Um look, everyone should try to be a Susan. She was one of the absolute greats and uh I
01:15:59
have an altar in my office. When you come to see me, you'll see with the photos of her and me and I think of her
01:16:05
every single day. And uh my heart just stays with her, her husband Dennis, all the children, the sisters, the wholeiki
01:16:14
family. Amazing. And one of the great institutions in Silicon Valley. We're lucky to have the whole family.
01:16:19
>> Yeah, she was fantastic. >> Well said. >> All right. Well said. Rest in peace,
01:16:23
Susan Waki. >> Thank you. >> All right. We'll see you all next time
01:16:26
on the podcast. Love you boys. >> See you guys. Aloha. Thanks for Bye-bye.