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the legend I'm I don't say that L the legend Michael obitz is in the building arguably one of the most successful
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Talent agents ever he R from working in a mail room to become a super agent representing some of Hollywood's biggest
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stars one doesn't get to a place of success without having made mistakes people say all kinds of things about him
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really really all kinds of things about him we went out to win and when you go out to win you make certain sacrifices
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we were tough and we were aggressive and I had a philosophy of win at all costs when we did uh the cost was huge rise or
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fall on our own Deeds our own brains our own willpower it's no crime in being vulnerable with people everybody has an
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issue I want to leave the planet a little better than when I came on please join us in welcoming Michael loit
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wow thank you so much Michael all right we have been we have been trying to make this happen
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for three years you're a hard one to get a hold of um if you don't know Michael you shouldn't be
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here Michael um co-founded CA and his book is uh fantastic by the way yeah who is Mike Ovitz yeah it's
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such it's such a read you could just skim through it by like read right through it because it goes by so fast
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it's incredible um in 1975 where um you know Michael is really known for transforming Hollywood and
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transforming the media business um one of the big Innovations of many in Michael's career has been the the the
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the innovation of packaging which really changed the power dynamics and the trajectory of uh how content was made in
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Hollywood um Michaels had we were just talking about this kind of three careers both as the founder of CIA and then
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later um a partnership with Andy Grove in 1993 where you formed the ca Intel media lab and really tried to
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bring technology to Hollywood and then later joined up with Mark Andre and have helped Mark and Ben since then scale up
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and recent horowits and really change how Silicon Valley operates and um it's just an incredible reinvention story but
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one where it seems you've brought a similar sort of set of Innovations to in in all three phases maybe you can tell
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us a little bit about those three major Transitions and the you know the the the
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way that you kind of made the decision to kind of reinvent yourself and uh bring technology and media together well
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first of all uh thank you for having me I I'm honored to be here uh I must say I've been going up to the valley since
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1992 probably hard for most of you in the audience to believe this but I'm much older than all the guys up here um
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and these are four of the uh not just the smartest but the uh most effective men that I've met up in the valley with
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respect to what they do how they do it and then lastly I have tried since they started the all-in podcast I have
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applied 15 times to be a best and I I have been rejected by one of the four up here which I will not say
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which [Laughter] one but we all want to have what they have and I was saying to David in the
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backstage it's so fantastic how they've set something up that is so interesting to listen to to learn from even to push
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up against you don't have to agree with it which is what I like about it but to hear it from something we all want in
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our lives which is close friends where you can say whatever you want as a matter of fact some of the stuff they
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say to David I find offensive but I think I too he he he handles it really well so back to the question um I I have
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an insatiable appetite for information and for trying to stay up with things that are current I started in the
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entertainment miss this when I was 17 years old believe it or not I was the first tour guide at Universal Studios
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they had hired five uh men and five women and uh I really learned so much about the media business and and how
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they made entertainment because Universal was in every area in film television music books everything and
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it's all the same by the way it's just different uh iterations of it it's all made to entertain people and I got the
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bug uh I went to UCLA uh took me 3 years to get out of there I couldn't get out of there fast
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enough but I went to the first class and the last class that's why when I was here I got really scared cuz I kind of
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missed the classes in between because I worked full-time at 20th Century Fox and
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just had a blast uh and then I went into the agency business in my early 20s I was at Universal was a tour guide I saw
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uh these men uh and women dressed really well being received well by everybody on
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the studio lots and I I said wow that's interesting what do they do I found out they were agents and I realized I could
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get a very wide education and I've always been interested in making myself smarter about things because I'm not I
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don't have the gift that a couple of these guys up here do which is or all of them which is raw intelligence I've I've
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got uh educated intelligence I have to really work at it and I really enjoyed that time and and getting into
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it we broke off when I was 26 A bunch of us for a whole series of reasons from the William Morris agenc he started CA
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with a very simple thesis which was that we were going to do something as a team
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rather than individually and it just worked really well artists enjoyed having a group of
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individuals to talk to which is not dissimilar to what these four guys have accomplished artists liked being
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surrounded by multiple people with different uh skill sets so that worked really well uh in
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1992 uh you could smell in La something going on up North but the thing about Los Angeles and the enter and
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particularly the entertainment Community is it's an incredibly siloed Community they don't accept people very well from
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the outside which by the way makes it very inbred and it's not particularly wise it may be smart for the moment but
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it's not wise so I started going up to San Francisco to see what was going on up there and then in the middle of ' 92
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I called cold Bill Gates and he it wasn't the Microsoft of today it was a small company company and I went up and
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met with Bill and then he introduced we talked for 4 hours about where my business and his business could converge
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and the only thing I will tell you is neither of us had any idea but it was the start of a discussion Bill
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introduced me to a man named Nathan mirval who I'm still friendly with today who was the first CTO of Microsoft and I
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was an advisor to three of the four major record labels and I remember being uh at one of the music uh labels that
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had 25% market share and there were stereo speakers in there and Nathan had said to me I can't explain this to you
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but music's going to come from up there I had no idea what he was talking about and I advised all four companies that
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something was happening and that hard Goods weren't going to be able to be sold and
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I got fired by one of them I got thrown out by the other three they thought that
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Nathan was crazy they didn't understand what Microsoft was and they had no interest in computers or anything
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digital and then from there I went and met Andy Grove we started a dialogue and we brought uh every conceivable piece of
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hardware and software available to Los Angeles put it in our Beverly Hills Building uh the top of the building had
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like eight dishes on it it looked like we were going to take off and we invited everyone from the entertainment business
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to come in and see and test all this to to wrap this up it was a great thing and a sad thing
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we knew something was coming we had no idea what but the business did what it always does it put its head in the sand
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and no one looked to San Francisco go and today when I meet with people in the business it's interesting when I explain
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to them how streaming has basically changed the Legacy business forever and it will never change again and it's all
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because everyone that we worked with refused to embrace change which to me is sort of the Mantra of my life I want to
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change I've changed my life personally I've changed careers three different times it's all about learning and about
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pushing yourself and it wasn't just media because you were very early to helping company like like paler as an
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example it's not just hey Michael Ovitz is a Hollywood guy or a media guy you were an adviser to a pure tech company
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yeah can you tell us a little bit about what you did with paler and how you got involved and what role you played so in
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99 um uh a young man named Mark Andre who happened to have been on the cover of Time Magazine barefooted which I thought
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was really weird uh and he called me cold I didn't know who he was frankly um I had heard of him I had heard of him
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because we were doing work for Jim Clark um who Mark was in business with and uh
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he had a company that was very close to the media business at the time I guess you could say it was a pre- Adobe type
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business and I met with Mark and I can't explain to you what happened but we went to a
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lunch that was going to take an hour I'm not long on lunches I don't do 1our zooms and I hate long calls because you
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can't get anything done so I thought we were going to be an hour we were four and a half hours and at the end of that
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he said will you come on the My Board with Ben Horwitz we starting a company called
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loudcloud and I said explain it to me and he did and I had no clue what he was talking about I I just didn't understand
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it he said all this data is going up in the sky and all I could think of was Nathan telling me that about music and I
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said wow now two smart guys really smart guys a lot smarter than me are talking about what's going on up there so I went
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on Mark's board uh I'm still involved with them 25 years later and uh Mark basically introduced me to everyone up
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in the valley Reed Hoffman Peter teal Mark Zuckerberg everybody that he dealt with and one of the guys he introduced
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me to was Peter teal who I just had dinner with last week and is one of the smartest guys I've ever met and he put a
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ton of his own money into paler he had no investors he had a small investment from
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DARPA I had no clue what they did but he called me up he said can you help me because
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we are in business with the US government and they don't pay very well and that I could empathize with um they
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they take a lot of money in tax but they don't pay very well and I said what do you want me to do because you know my
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coding uh is a bit limited and uh he said I want you to help get com uh set up a commercial business so without
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going through a long boring story uh after Peter got a dozen phone calls being criticized for bringing me in to
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do this which he actually enjoyed by the way which is what I love about him uh I
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met with Alex karp for three months in his office I was living in San Francisco uh three days a week and I looked at
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everything they were doing they only had at the time about 25 30 engineers and came up with some ideas starting with
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three silos narrowed it to advertising health care and finance got rid of the two of them quickly because Finance was
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a no- breiner the whole world had gone under with the mortgage crisis and paler actually had an
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algorithm that you could plug an address of a house into it and they they did this after I asked them to you could
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plug an address of a house and it scraped a million data points within one mile of the house how many kids were
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leaving private school how many hamburgers were sold how many dry CL cleaning stores closed it was like a a
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brief in a nanc of the economy and JP Morgan couldn't off a mortgage for the life of them if they wanted to
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because they had local branch managers who love their jobs all the mortgages were underwater they didn't want to make
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a decision we put palent online they got permission to plug the address in and whatever the bid ass came up they could
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close we promised we deliver in 90 days I always over uh I always under promise and overd deliver and we delivered in 55
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days and we saved them $150 million to the bottom line in that 55 day period and that became a request from them the
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only problem they had is they forgot to make a deal with me for the software so they had this unbelievable
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old and no deal and uh they offered I think 2 million for a one year license for five years and I called Peter and he
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was just dancing on his desk he couldn't believe it and I said I turned it down so he said you've lost your mind
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and started yelling at me as only in a nice way and I said just give me 15 days I used to be an agent and he said uh
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okay in any case 15 days later they came back and they made a deal that was um many many multiples of that price and
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they became the first of the commercial business at palente tier and then and now today their business I they were
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just added to the S&P sorry they were just added to the yesterday and they 6040 I'd say commercial versus
00:15:54
government government Michael can we talk a little bit about the move mov business the entertainment business we
00:16:00
were just watching all this generative Ai and I got the sense you were looking at it um with either anger contempt or
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sadness um you've made such amazing or you know orchestrated such amazing seminal Works um during Peak Cinema
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something fredberg sax and I grew up in defined you know a lot of um the way we look at Art and now it feels like it's
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lost in many ways I'm curious when you see people making things with generative AI what happens to your heart and to
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your mind it's a great question Jason and I'll tell you why first of all streaming has basically destroyed the
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Legacy business you've probably all seen in the Press what's going on with Paramount where the elant have purchased
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the company at a at a price that's probably 20% of what it used to be um it was one of the great seven horsemen of
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the entertainment business business I was was talking to David about and Jason earlier there's the entertainment
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business went from a you get paid upfront and then you get a piece of the profits so since streamings come you get
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paid up front there are no profits your products in The Ether your books in The Ether your songs in The Ether music is a
00:17:19
little better because thanks to danielc everybody gets a royalty but it's very different than it used to be so
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streaming has destroyed the business that I grew up in it's why I wanted to get out of the entertainment
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business you could see it coming uh secondly I think that the if you look past that and you look to AI right now
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it's bittersweet the things that can be done are mind-boggling we just saw a slight
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example I'm involved uh with a company out of Germany with three young phds from the the University of heidleberg
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they have just released their first product uh of text to video I've never seen anything like this in my life
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visually um you can say what you want and it shows up and I mean it's perfect um the technology is staggering
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and I've seen every one of them for obvious reasons the people that work in this
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community and 250,00 thousand people in Los Angeles make their living in the media
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business they are all afraid of one thing and that is are they going to have a job or be able to work so if you talk
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to a production designer the man or woman who comes up and draws and Designs every shot so they can light it and
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figure out continuity and who's wearing what and what they're going to shoot so they can get their to minutes of film in
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12 hours because that's what you get you work two 12 hours a day you get 2 minutes of usable
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footage I am working on a project right now with Netflix and a production designer I interviewed asked me at the
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end of the meeting he said Michael I need three weeks to do this project but I'm using these two AI programs which I
00:19:26
approved and he said I can do it for you in 3 days he said does that mean I'm going to be out of a job when that 3
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days is an hour and anybody can do it and I honestly I didn't have a clear answer to put his mind at e because the
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answer is probably a little yes and a little no but it's incredibly disruptive now on the other side of the
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coin is it going to have emotion and heart if you look back all the way to the history of video games to Pac-Man
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which was a a nothing game but a it was viral in the world it had no heart it was nothing it was just some thing
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eating other things but look where we are today with full motion video video games and once
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you get the face and the eyes right in video games and in animation and animation has done the best of that it
00:20:30
sucks people in emotionally so the question Jason can AI do that or do they need a human being to do that and nobody
00:20:39
has the answer can we just talk about the the community aspect because the implication of generative AI is I sit in
00:20:46
front of my screen and I say show me something romantic comedy horror film sci-fi here's the premise and you get
00:20:54
something or you have some directions and everyone ends up with personalized content which is
00:21:00
effectively what you know distributed social media did everyone's kind of consuming different Tik toks and
00:21:05
different Instagrams but everyone seems to coales around one and then we still all watch the same Netflix show and we
00:21:11
talk about it we have a conversation about it does generative AI change the nature of media which is a shared
00:21:18
experience a community experience that we all talk about or do we end up in a world where everyone's got their own
00:21:24
Media or their own content and what's how does the jury kind of ultimately decide that I think I think
00:21:32
it's an individual decision from all of you sitting in the audience it's binary you either want passive entertainment
00:21:40
because you're exhausted you want your brain taken to another place I used to love to watch big set movies that were
00:21:51
took me outside the United States to relax when I was in the agency business I mean we watched 105 minutes of film
00:21:59
every night just to get a sense of what directors do but when we were stressed believe it or not even being in the
00:22:05
business we would go back to pictures like David leans Lawrence of Arabia or Stanley Kubrick's 2001 or um any of
00:22:15
these pictures that transported you James Bond the early I represented connory the the early Bond movies were
00:22:23
made for a nickel and took you all over Europe and there were places I just wanted want to experience the other side
00:22:30
of that coin on the binary side is active entertainment do you want to create your own ending do you want to
00:22:36
change characters do you want to try to put a movie together do you want to go to a site that has the rights to an old
00:22:43
movie star like Clark gel or Humphrey Bogart or Jimmy Stewart or Gary Cooper or the greats of the 40s and 50s and
00:22:52
make your own movie it's all individual I think everybody will make up their mind Netflix an experiment with a show
00:23:00
with a bunch of different endings and it's fascinating you never heard anything about it I want to ask you
00:23:06
about attention spit can I ask a question yeah sure of course um let's talk about um free speech and censorship
00:23:13
when you were building your business you had these free speech absolutists like Larry Flint who are not anywhere related
00:23:19
to your business but over there fighting for a certain set of basic rights um and
00:23:24
then underneath that as a result I think there was like this envelope that it created for
00:23:29
creative people to just go and push the boundaries tell stories explore things um how is that the same as what's
00:23:37
happening now and different so you know you talked about working with Netflix one of the jokes about Netflix is it
00:23:42
sometimes starts with sort of like an agenda per se say around content and you know even if it doesn't necessarily map
00:23:48
to good content it reflects certain um ideas how do you think about that just well it's a it's a great question
00:23:55
because it's like at the Forefront of every conversation um this company I'm working with in Germany it's called
00:24:01
Black Forest they you know they put certain guide rails on what can be done and then they found someone uh you know
00:24:11
someone on X used the content to I mean use the algorithms to create something that was questionable right but they
00:24:19
can't stop it they're just the provider so it's a debate going on all the time when I started in the business in the
00:24:27
60s the every the there was only three television networks seven Motion Picture companies there was five publishing
00:24:37
companies that publish books and there were five record companies and they were The Gatekeepers to everything we read
00:24:46
heard or saw and as agents and the reason I became an agent is we became the gatekeeper to the gatekeeper which
00:24:54
no one had ever thought of so we basically took 75% of the talent to the company within eight years of
00:25:03
starting and we went to The Gatekeepers and we told them what they could have versus them telling us what they could
00:25:12
have so we would uh Michael kryon who was a longtime client gave me a book um and it was a book about three people uh
00:25:22
on a island off the coast of Costa Rica and it was an amusement park with Prehistoric
00:25:30
monsters and the Monsters got out and I read the book and I called them up I said my son likes dinosaurs I like
00:25:39
dinosaurs and my dad likes dinosaurs we're doing this movie I called Steph Spielberg and I said I need you to read
00:25:47
this tonight which I've never done in all the time I represented him and he said you have to get permission from My
00:25:54
Wife and because he wasn't allowed to read at night so I called Kate who was also a client and she said it was okay
00:26:02
he called me at 6:00 the next morning and said I'm in it was the first time in my history
00:26:10
that a filmmaker had said to me I'm going to do a movie with no script I'm going to do it off the book it was that
00:26:17
good and Jurassic Park has probably done four or five billion dollars of box office minimum plus ancillary rights and
00:26:26
I think that when I think about it it suffered the same thing that happened when I started in the business there
00:26:33
were actually was a department at the three networks that read everything looked at everything and
00:26:42
told you what you could not do and some of it was so ridiculous that the creative people went
00:26:49
crazy some of the biggest fights as agents we ever had was protecting our creatives against the authority of what
00:26:58
what was the censorship department and we're right back there now we are right back there now this whole concept of AI
00:27:08
how do you protect I had a conversation yesterday something I never thought of I
00:27:13
was looking at Cyber companies and I was on the phone with someone that works at
00:27:18
a big cyber company and he gave me a thesis asked me what I thought how they could protect the following someone does
00:27:29
a piece of AI that is you Troth and it's got an invoice with you on it approving that
00:27:41
that invoice should be paid right the invoice looks very legitimate it's got your wiring instructions and it goes to
00:27:49
the company and it's not you and it's not your invoice and you your office automatically pays the bill they see you
00:28:00
they see the invoice they pay the bill how do you protect against that that's just the tip of the iceberg and it's all
00:28:08
everyone's talking about right now how do you handle this there was this incredible moment I guess from Robert
00:28:15
Evans to yourself um Bob Delhi of the studio head the person who could make a gut decision to Greenlight something as
00:28:26
you were sort of just describing with Jurassic Park and then something crazy happens the accountants the
00:28:35
financiers take over and they OU the URS and the and the people who have taste um
00:28:41
and then we're all suffering through the 78th Marvel movie or television series that is just done without any care or
00:28:51
thoughtfulness and we lose these adult movies that you made that your contemporaries made uh um that Define
00:29:00
Cinema that Define art that defined storytelling whether it's the Godfather the conversation shape culture you know
00:29:07
and I'm I'm curious when you look at those Studio heads in that moment in time is there any chance that could ever
00:29:13
come back because we're I think part of the reason why people don't have an attention span for Cinema and for this
00:29:21
incredible art form that's being lost is because these Bean counters these bureaucrats are not letting the artists
00:29:29
make important work anymore like you did it's a different world I got I'm so lucky I can't articulate it enough I've
00:29:39
seen both so I got to work at the with where there were people running Studios like Lou waserman ran
00:29:47
Universal uh dick xanic ran Fox and all the um the executives were they didn't work for big companies some of the
00:29:57
companies had stock that traded just you know on its own and those that didn't were private Universal was Private up
00:30:04
until I sold it to matsoua Electric it was a private company and I was telling this story to someone
00:30:13
at dinner the other night no one that studies film when I teach at a film class I will ask how
00:30:22
many of you see black and white movies almost no hands go up how many of you have seen movies prior to 1980 no hands
00:30:29
go up how many of you know who Frank kapr is or David lean or Stanley cubrick I just go right down the list of the
00:30:38
greats that set the foundation for the American cultural ethos in entertainment and and at one time entertainment was
00:30:48
the second largest export of the United States which no one realizes between movies television books and Records
00:30:57
second largest export after aircraft those numbers don't exist anymore and it's it's a different world and I tell
00:31:06
this story about how a man named Irving thalberg at MGM in the late 20s and 30s at 28 years
00:31:18
old pumped out 350 films a year and if you look at the titles they're some of the greatest movies ever made
00:31:28
it was all from his stomach he didn't have any data he didn't look at Tik Tock which none of us should look at anyways
00:31:36
but that's a different issue um he didn't see reals he wasn't on Instagram he wasn't looking at short form
00:31:45
content the you know the one negative thing that the valley has done for creativity is they have trained viewers
00:31:56
which I thought was imposs possible 20 years ago to consume content differently I want it
00:32:04
short I want it fast I want to ease drop on other people they don't need to be celebrities I'm going to make somebody
00:32:12
that's celebrity that isn't a celebrity and has no talent but they seem to know how to put
00:32:20
makeup on so I'm going to follow them and there's data coming out of your eyeballs you have the streaming service
00:32:28
is giving filmmakers data on who's looking at what how old the character should be how
00:32:34
good-looking this one should be how badl looking this one should be what should the heavy look like who the director
00:32:40
should be based on the past 20 films because we've put it in the computer it doesn't work like that and
00:32:48
social rules social is and this is a I mean you know I don't know if you want to comment on that before we wrap we are
00:32:55
uh running a bit late but that's it David we could keep going I mean um but there is a there's a there is a big um
00:33:03
he's a bestie yeah there's there's a you're best now I'm trying out here so you guys I need you guys to convince the
00:33:12
one of the four guys up here that I should be with them on this podcast wow that would be be honor you know Michael
00:33:21
it used to be that Hollywood kind of set culture Hollywood um Hollywood kind of created whatever
00:33:30
social phenomenon became The Fad dour but now um there's culture there there's there's social rules and restrictions
00:33:38
that are being imposed on Hollywood I I no one wants to talk about it out loud but how much do you feel like the
00:33:45
business is constrained and challenged Now by you know these social movements well I mean let's start with the woke
00:33:53
movement okay I wasn't going to say it yeah okay here we go I mean I I don't have any problem raising it if it
00:33:59
doesn't bother you guys I think I'm okay with [Applause] it it uh it's hard to believe that it's
00:34:10
had a huge impact on what you see what you read not what you hear musicians have been really clever about getting
00:34:18
around that because if you watch some of their music videos they just do what they want to do but it's short form it's
00:34:26
3 minutes around under can I just make a quick observation as we wrap up here so
00:34:31
I didn't really understand what Michael had done to disrupt the agency business until a couple of decades ago I had the
00:34:38
opportunity to visit the original William Morris office and the original CA office that you designed with imp and
00:34:45
the original William Morris office it was like this honeycomb where the each agent would have this little office and
00:34:51
then uh there was an outer office where they had their assistant and there'd be a hallway to get to that it was and you
00:34:56
know there'd be like a longer hallway way no one could ever see each other everyone was kind of on their own and
00:35:01
then if you visited the original CIA office it was this open space it was like this modern office like get see in
00:35:07
a startup where everyone could see each other and it immediately helped underscore and helped me understand that
00:35:13
how significant this team approach that you had to team packaging was and why you could do such a fundamental
00:35:19
disruption in the industry so that's observation number one the second observation is that when I read your
00:35:25
book the one of the concepts that really stood out to me was that when you talked
00:35:29
about packaging and putting together a package you always had this concept of what you called the motor which is it
00:35:35
was the element in the package that would make it go so in the example you gave with Jurassic Park you had the
00:35:42
element of Steven Spielberg and really in that case the element was the IP that you got from Michael kryon right and you
00:35:48
put that together there was two elements two elements in that case but that always stuck with me and you know even
00:35:53
when I'm dealing with startups I'm thinking about what's the motor here it's frequently the founder in their
00:35:57
vision should be um but it seems to me that uh that you were the motor not just for CA but really for an entire era in
00:36:07
the entertainment industry and I want to give you credit for that well thank you
00:36:10
thank you Micha amazing we'll have you back again yeah