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my body is a wonderland if that wonderland is white soft and mushy sure and hairy too
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you know the worst thing about skin on skin sleeping with the newborn is that you know sometimes she roots and she
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goes after the man the male nip i know the problem is my nipple's covered in hair
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it's really awkward for everybody she start gagging i'll tell tally that story when she's 18. we're at her
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wedding it'll be even better hey everybody welcome to another episode of the all-in podcast i am wearing a
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blue shirt i am a pasty white old greek man uh who's balding and obnoxious and uh with me today
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is uh no no no no no you have to you have to say your pronoun bro am i oh and my pronouns are
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uh oh wait what are my pronouns my pronouns are beep beep and most people just call
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me a jerk with me today of course is my sri lankan urkel looking wearing a furry sweater
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hello everybody my name is chamath i have uh salt and pepper black hair brown eyes uh i am tall
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uh six foot two i go by the pronouns we king and stud muffin and uh uh i'm here to talk to you about
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uh internet security protocols i look like article i think people should just come up and say well i don't
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look like girls i'm the closest i don't look like urkel i look like a bollywood when you put your glass about
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welcome to the all-in podcast two out of the four of us are cancelled next up for
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cancellation socks yes i'm coming to you here from the floor of the new york stock exchange
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which was once land that belonged to the mohegan the montauk the oneida the erie
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and iroquois tribes you forgot the irish we own the seven points oh my god you literally did it you went for it
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saks i love you i'm uh isn't it important that at any moment that we're successful we have to
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flagellate ourselves and remind ourselves about that at one time all this land was owned by somebody else
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we stole it and also the greeks conquered the romans and so on but you forgot to mention you're also
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wearing a other shirt that is four sizes too large this is my slim fit so that's slim fit
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oh no here we go again sax has been upgrading the wardrobe he's changing we wait before freeburg does the intro uh
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jacob you want to tell them why we're we're doing these intros like this yeah i gotta pause before we get okay
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yesterday on the internet emerged a series of videos that were clipped of microsoft presenting their new suite of
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developer tools yadda yadda and corporate people got up and without any explanation
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started describing their physical appearance their pronouns their ethnicity their skin tone and their hair
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styles and the entire internet was like oh my god this is crazy woke-ism like what
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what is happening here this no i thought it was a skit i thought it was a saturday on the livestream and so
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right and so then as soon as they got called out by the entire internet they claimed that they were doing this for
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visually impaired people which kind of begs the question of why visually impaired people need to know what race
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you are like it's still playing into this like crazy weight race consciousness but then on top of it it wasn't just
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that we we know it's not that because then they start doing no no but hold on yeah also if you if you're blind and
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technically can't see you may not even know what blue means because you will have never seen the
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color blue or blonde okay right right but they were also identifying their races which kind of
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begs the question of why that's important but if you were born blind you would not know what that means either
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you're literally colorblind on the same footing as people who are not visually impaired what i'm saying
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if you're visually impaired you're using the wrong language that language is for
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the sighted people okay but i i'm just calling [ __ ] on their stated explanation that has
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anything to do with visually impaired because then they went on to basically recite the names of 10 tribes
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native american tribes that no one's ever heard of on on which the microsoft campus it used to belong to so which is
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why i was kind of making fun of that in my initial statement but so look this is
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just woke capitalism this is woke-ism out of control obviously they didn't see the election results earlier in the week
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it's clearly there was some level of virtue signaling i think in their defense they were trying to do it i
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think for the visually impaired the problem was they didn't explain the context and
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they didn't give instructions to the people on what to do so well but jake that video that was a clip
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pulled out of a broader context too right so like apparently this is common on campus or common there that this is
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happening all over so we just know it isn't common because i asked people online well it was optional it was
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optional it's optional to the common point i think the reason the internet reacted the way it was was i asked every
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single person who came at me because the work left came at me i just said can you
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show me another clip of this on youtube of any event where this occurred and nobody could so i think this was kind of
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a first when did you stop being a member of that that woke left jkl what was the mother like the hysterical
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side i've never been for bernie i've never been for elizabeth warren i've always been moderate
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always wait can i hear freeberg's intro yeah free bro can we hear yours my identity is an illusion
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it's an illusion created by the viewer and you can call me whatever you want i sit on the ground where during the
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haitian period there was lava and magma and nothing but co2 and methane and i represent those gases that are now lost
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to the oxygenation and the cyanobacteria that swarmed over this earth and took everything over
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and led to the formation of eukaryotic life and here we all sit today in our privileged existence thank you are you
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saying that you want to freeburger is just electrons hitting neurons in interesting ways yeah
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quantum foam is my pronoun so would you like to formally apologize for colonizing the dark matter during the
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big bang now or would you like to i feel it was inappropriate it wasn't fair when the cyanobacteria
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took over the the face of the earth and sucked up all the co2 and created all the oxygen and for that we all apologize
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for the genocide of the for the genocide of co2 and methane i mean those molecules were really happy and
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you know they had a very kind of like peaceful existence on this earth and you know
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we just came in and ripped it away just took it all away from them and you know and then the offspring ended up
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being us and here we are so apologies all right all right welcome to episode 54.
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everybody's canceled the final episode everybody's horrible i i don't think that the microsoft thing
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was bad and when you hear the broader context it was like you know that's just you know i think it's a reasonable thing
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that visually impaired people heard i'm still long microsoft and google and short the rest of the big
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tech so i'm fine with it there you go back to the stock price actually jamal do you think that the
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google long netflix short play is the right play i think the best trade on the best trade
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on the internet the most obvious simple money making trade is long microsoft google short big tech short the rest of
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the big tech short ibm short netflix no no no no short one meaning you can you can very comfortably short apple
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facebook amazon netflix and belong microsoft google so as a spread trade right right it's the most it's the best
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risk parity trade on the internet right now i mean period in the markets can you
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explain explain a spreadsheet so look look i i tweeted this a while ago but it's like and and again the
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i i think like well let me be constructive and say the people on twitter that respond to these
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treads are not totally stupid although i think they're kind of idiotic um i said you know here's how you can
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effectively you know i i said something about you know big tech and i said oh i can
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comfortably put my short on and i'm kind of trolling people when i do that because i'm not telling them the
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full trade and the real trade whenever you put anything on in my opinion is all about managing risk
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and the best thing about the internet and the stock market is that you know when you're betting on internet stocks
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you don't necessarily have to be naked long or naked short which comes with a lot more risk than if your
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long one security and short another against it so for example over the last 10 years you would have
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made a lot of money by being long amazon and short a basket of traditional commerce companies offline commerce i'm
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going to make up a basket but macy's jcpenney you know kmart sears right so if you're short those and long amazon
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that's what's called a spread trade you're you're basically playing the gap between your longs and your shorts it's
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independent of where the market generally trades it's one of the irrelevant of the market you're
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basically saying those stocks could go up but just not everything could work near amazon yeah
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when you put that trade on for example it's i'm going to bet that if everything goes up amazon will go up more than
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kmart walmart sears and if the stock market goes down amazon won't go down that much but these
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ones will go down a lot and you you're playing the spread so just just to be very explicit
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you know there was a very and i talked about this last week but uh i that this idea wasn't mine it's a borrowed trade
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from somebody who's a very well-known hedge fund manager who put it on in massive size and you
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know to be honest not knowing much of anything i just copied it but he's his initial trade
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was long google short facebook and that trade basically was at parity which meant that the long and the short
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canceled each other out for about the last four years until the last year it completely blew
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out and it returned about 80 85 percent so if you had put 100 and you would have
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made about 85 uh 85 bucks on this trade by being long google short facebook the the bigger trade at scale is
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actually long google and microsoft and short the rest of big tech and there's a lot of vague reasons why
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that this idea makes a lot of sense but what you're saying is they'll outperform
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the other basket of texas on a relative basis on a relative basis so so it's not
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like you're saying airbnb can't go up or facebook can't go up it could it's not going to go as well
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he's saying that the the trillion dollar market cap companies yeah not the airbnb
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oh okay and the reason and the reason why focusing there makes sense is there hyper liquid markets
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they have tremendous ways in which you can have massive size on so you could put a trade of
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10 billion long versus 10 billion short i mean you can put mega size on on these
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things if you if you have real conviction and then the third thing is when the banks look at that kind of position
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they actually from a risk management perspective treat it differently than if you were just naked long any one of
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these things or make it long would be just making one bet yeah or you know or naked short which is even more dangerous
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so because if the market collapses by 30 both stocks might go down 30 roughly but
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one will go down 32 and the other one will go down 28 and so you're really only getting two percent two percent as
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opposed to the 30 percent of the so all the market risk is taken out when you make trades like that yeah the reason
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it's possible also today to do so at such a scale right chemoth is interest rates are so low
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so when you borrow on margin to go long the rate is very low and when you short the stock if it's a highly liquid stock
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it doesn't cost a lot to borrow too short that's so your actual you know uh carrying cost on that trade ends up
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being pretty low relative to the upside you expect so just to just to give you a
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sense of it my um you know when i tweeted that tweet out to complete the picture i was actually long something
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against my proposed short and i put it on in pretty meaningful leverage and um it's worked out really
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well because i was playing the spread i was basically betting that you know the the safest company on the internet today
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is google because they're both a platform company and to the extent that they're at risk at being an app company
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the risk is to apple but because they pay apple so much for search they're inoculated and so in many ways google is
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the safest and it's also as we've said before the purest money making machine on the internet you're referring of
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course to google paying apple 10 billion dollars to be the default search they own
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android so one platform and on the other platform they they pay them so much that
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they're going to be always protected and the second best company is microsoft and
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you we even saw it by the way this past week i don't know if you guys saw that but microsoft decided to take a
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broadside attack against notion yeah which is a productivity app that's been growing very well i felt this when i was
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on the board of slack when microsoft put its gun sights on us we always thought that they could not
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out compete with us and what it turns out is when you have a massive distribution advantage
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feature parity is enough and you can actually be slightly less than good enough on the
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features because distribution and bundling and packaging overpower a customer's desire to adopt a product so
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in the case of slack it was very difficult i think for us to compete against microsoft's bundling
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of teams with all this other software that they were selling and all the discounting
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that they could do made it very difficult for us to compete because we had a single product and lo and behold
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18 months later the only real long-term protective solution for slack shareholders was to basically get bought
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by salesforce so that you could be part of a bigger hole this past week microsoft decided to go
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after notion and it's going to be i think a very similar story where you know once they decide to sort of go
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after this a product experience they only need to be eighty percent as good and then the distribution and
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bundling and packaging will take care of the other twenty percent it doesn't kill
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the other company but it creates headwinds that massive headwinds because because a company like notion cannot be
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fully valued over long periods of time simply being an smb company at a minimum you'll have to move into the mid-market
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you may necessarily never have to go to the enterprise but you probably have to go to the mid-market and in that is a
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very troublesome path because microsoft has so much you know uh so many tentacles inside of those
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businesses so anyways basically microsoft long google is a pretty obvious kind of like monopolistic
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you know pair trade the question is what do you short against it so that you can take up
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the market volatility and you can play spread again apple has severe you know headwinds with respect to inflation
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pressures um and margins and supply chain issues amazon has pretty meaningful headwinds now
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relative to uh pricing power and competition facebook has pressure with respect to regulatory oversight i just
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came up with one what about airbnb versus the airlines you're talking about small or
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rinky dink ideas well listen i'm not playing the same chip stack issue i wasn't there on tuesday night i'm on a
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thursday night so no no that'll be a good spread for me no that's a stupid idea and i'll tell you why okay if
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you're gonna put these things on go to where the deepest liquid markets are because those are the safest
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okay right like like don't try to be different being the same here tell me why airbnb
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which is a incredible margin business that's incredibly well run and growing versus airlines which are horribly run
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and low margin why wouldn't that be a good spread trade i'm just thinking i think it's a very very too you're
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picking two random companies out of a hat well no they're both in uh transportation and vacation and
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traffic they're completely different businesses with completely different motivations with different capital pools
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with different people that own the stock there's no point trying to get cute on these things my point is if you really
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want to be hedged against market risk got it go to where it's safest find the simplest most obvious thing
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don't overthink it or don't put it on so another obvious one here's here's so obvious is within big tech figure out
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which ones you want to be long which ones you want to be short that's a spread trade that over the next four or
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five years where if you expect a lot of market volatility it makes sense to maybe put some of this
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kind of stuff on right a different version of this idea which makes sense is in autos again trillions
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of dollars of market cap and you can make a decision do i want to be long tesla lucid and
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rivian and short the traditional autos that could be a trade you know but trying to like trying to go
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after like let me pick airbnb versus united airlines is too random for me and i don't think they're correlated enough
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for it to make any sense right speaking of the stock market uh saks um you've got the background of the new york stock
00:17:32
exchange as your zoom background today what's that about yeah so bird listed on the new york
00:17:38
stock exchange today this is a company that i've been involved in pretty much since the beginning we led the series a
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round back in 2017 it was actually the first check i wrote as a vc to lead around
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at kraft and four years later public company on the new york stock exchange is pretty amazing
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and so you're literally at the new york stock exchange we speak first remote bestie yes and you can see behind me um
00:18:05
that is the floor of the new york stock exchange it's not like you know if you see the movie trading places it's not
00:18:10
like that anymore there are no stock brokers there's no like paper flying around got it i'm not really sure what
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the purpose of all those monitors are down there it feels to me a little bit like a movie set
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yeah it's like a movie setting yes yeah and some people guys come here to record
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things but as we all know the all the trades are really happening inside giant machines
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can you turn around and just start yelling booyah and let's see if security comes and
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no i remember i'm in i'm i'm elevated above the floor no one could really hear me here i'm in like this sort of
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broadcast booth uh so take us behind the decision to go public as a four year old company we
00:18:50
were expecting you know uh airbnb ubers and lyfts took over 10 years to go public now here we
00:18:56
are sitting on a four-year-old public company is that a good thing a bad thing something in between and how does the
00:19:03
board and the management team make that decision to go public i think it's a good thing um because the
00:19:08
company well the company wanted to i think it had the opportunity to it um it grew very very quickly before covid then
00:19:15
you had covid was like sort of a huge setback they i mean basically the scooter industry just stopped for at
00:19:20
least six months because of lockdowns but then coming out of kova they bounced back really strongly they kind of
00:19:25
pivoted their model to what's called a fleet manager model where basically they're
00:19:30
putting a business in a box for a local operator a local entrepreneur to buy the
00:19:36
scooters with financing and manage the fleet themselves so it's a much more highly virtualized model
00:19:42
and so as a result of that in q2 they just did 60 million in revenue in the last quarter
00:19:49
and i think it was a gross profit of something like 27 and uh it was had a loss of like 12 million
00:19:59
so they're very very close to getting to profitability and uh you know the company's only four
00:20:05
years old you know it took uber 12 years or whatever to get through public so it's been pretty it's been a pretty
00:20:10
amazing ride there's been a lot of big ups and downs but uh so it's kind of a pretty sweet event what is it
00:20:17
i know it was switchback was like the spat name right so it's it today was the first day it started trading under the
00:20:22
ticker symbol brds i guess all birds took bi rd so we took brds and um you know if there's a total number of
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shares outstanding of i want to say roughly 300 million so it's about a 2.4 uh billion dollar market cap you know as
00:20:41
it stands right now which you know for a series a investor is pretty great really happy for you sex
00:20:46
yeah congratulations it's great congrats dude we heard last week sequoia is going
00:20:51
to do the sequoia fund this evergreen fund keep owning shares now as a vc um do you distribute after four years of
00:20:59
this investment and you made multiple investments or do you make the decision hey we think it's undervalued we have
00:21:05
you know conviction in the company we were going to be in it for 10 years or do you just take the quick win and give
00:21:10
everybody their shares well i've i'm gonna i've agreed to be on the board for the next year so
00:21:14
you know i'm planning to do that and we have a traditional six month lockup and so at that point we'd have to make a
00:21:22
decision about when or how much to distribute the shares and this is the first time we've been confronted with
00:21:28
the decision i mean craft ventures is only a four-year-old firm and like i said this is actually the first
00:21:33
round that i led as a vc so it's the first time we've been confronted with a distribution of this magnitude we've had
00:21:39
some smaller distributions so yeah we still have to make those decisions we haven't decided yet what
00:21:44
we're going to do if you if the stock is up let's say meaningfully in the next six months and you get to that you know
00:21:49
six months and a day and you have the ability to distribute and it's up 25 and you're looking at it business is
00:21:57
thriving you're on the board do you consider holding for a year or two so that you can distribute it at 16
00:22:04
25 or whatever your price target is maybe i mean we haven't we haven't gotten to that point yet so yeah i mean
00:22:10
i guess what i would say is that our bias would be to distribute shares to our lps so that they can make
00:22:19
their own decisions about whether to hold it or not um as long as we think the stock is you
00:22:24
know priced fairly if for some reason we thought it wasn't then would there be an additional reason
00:22:29
to hold on to it and make the distribution later chamoth what are your thoughts on this
00:22:33
given it's come up before and a number of us are going to be faced with this decision and then we see
00:22:38
sequoia has got lp buy-in for an evergreen fund well i think an evergreen fund is different from having to figure
00:22:45
out how to do distributions so um they're they're solving for two different ideas
00:22:50
the evergreen fund is really good because you don't have to do this continual fundraising process and you can
00:22:57
basically roll gains back into the next tranche of invested companies in an easier way i like that idea it was
00:23:04
pretty rare at the time i remember when i was starting social capital the only fund
00:23:09
that did it really well was sutter hill um and for a whole host of reasons i decided to not do an evergreen fund
00:23:16
in hindsight i think for me that turned out to be better because then it was easier for me to wind down
00:23:22
and have a clear demarcation of when it was just myself and other lps versus when it was just my capital
00:23:31
but there were some really good reasons to do it the hardest thing i think that sequoia
00:23:35
is going to find in this new iteration is at some point somebody's reputation will
00:23:42
be on the line for judging public equities and it's still not clear to me that people
00:23:49
who live and breathe venture can context switch well enough to then live and breathe
00:23:55
public equity so just the best example i would say is like tiger global when you
00:23:58
look inside that organization which is incredibly well run there are two superb investors that
00:24:05
carve the universe up right you have chase coleman that runs the public book and you have scott schleifer that runs a
00:24:09
private book what does it prove to me it proves that it's just very hard to find a person
00:24:14
that can do both and the context switching is very complicated so maybe sequoia finds
00:24:20
an incredible public market strategist that can then manage these positions otherwise but
00:24:26
they've done this for a few years right they've um sequoia i don't know people realize this they set up
00:24:31
the heritage fund and they set it up with only gp's money it's got billions under management and it's been making
00:24:37
late stage private but mostly public equity investing i know but that's a fun to fund what i'm
00:24:43
saying is i'll be very honest with you if i was an lp of sequoia i would want the money back
00:24:50
and the reason is i'm not sure that sequoia can compound money in the public markets anywhere near what i could
00:24:56
so do you buy the point that they make that like exiting some of these left most of the you know kind of value
00:25:02
creation on the table i think what they're saying something much more subtle which is they exited and they
00:25:08
have regrets for selling you have to remember when sequoia distributed google every single partner got google shares
00:25:17
now had they held those shares they wouldn't be saying any of this and famously i'll tell you when they held
00:25:22
their shares i actually do fair enough but maybe they did maybe they didn't but let's just let's just
00:25:28
put it out there that for example i know explicitly when i almost merged social capital with kleiner perkins like six
00:25:34
years ago i spent so much time with john dore the most incredible thing that i was so
00:25:38
impressed with dora was he was he told me he had never sold a single share of amazon that was distributed to him and
00:25:46
he had only sold a handful of shares of google only to fund future capital requirements
00:25:51
at kleiner at the time so i just think that ultimately i think probably what sequoia was saying
00:25:58
is man i wish i had not sold my google shares when they were distributed to me because otherwise they wouldn't make
00:26:03
that claim no i think what they're saying is more subtle i think they're saying you as our lps should have held
00:26:08
them we are on the board of these companies from day one we have better insights in the second decade than in
00:26:13
the first production board uh founder david friedberg how do you think about early exits distributing capital because
00:26:21
you do have also with a startup studio structure which you should explain to the audience how a startup studio works
00:26:26
because you create companies which is you know was a terrible place to be maybe five or ten years ago but it turns
00:26:32
out you're in the best place because zero to one is where all the values created explain the two things
00:26:37
what a startup studio is for people who don't know and then what's your view of selling
00:26:41
early if a company of yours goes uh publicly i think there's a big um there's a bigger kind of framing here
00:26:49
which is a lot of um investors you know professional money managers have tried to find ways to create what
00:26:57
is called permanent capital which is a vehicle whereby they can continuously make investments decide
00:27:03
when to sell those investments and recycle the capital into new investments with the idea being that over time
00:27:08
they're not at risk of capital outflows meaning investors pull their money out and they're not at risk of
00:27:15
uh you know needing to kind of go out and raise more money and they can they can share in the value creation as they
00:27:20
grow their book value over time years ago a bunch of hedge funds set up public reinsurance companies
00:27:27
dan loeb did this um uh what's his name einhorn did this blackman did it and basically bill ackman did it what they
00:27:34
did is they set up a public company a new public company a reinsurer and then they used that that reinsurer
00:27:40
to underwrite reinsurance and when you underwrite reinsurance you get all this capital that you can then go invest and
00:27:45
then the hedge fund manage that investment and because it's actually a public company it's got a balance sheet
00:27:50
the um the shareholders can't pull their money out right it's just got a balance sheet
00:27:55
and the hedge fund was managing that balance sheet and you know generating good returns and
00:27:59
this is effectively what warren buffett does and everyone looks to berkshire hathaway and warren buffett it's kind of
00:28:04
the you know the the the key kind of long term here um which is uh hey look if you can keep
00:28:10
investing and keep compounding value this thing can grow you know exponentially over time
00:28:16
so you know the way we set up the production board i had the option of raising a fund and being a fund manager
00:28:21
i chose to set up the production board because i was much more interested in i think the similar sort of vein of what
00:28:26
sequoia is saying which is like how do you become a longer term uh builder and a longer term holder and where you don't
00:28:32
have these incentives to return capital because you only get paid if and when you return capital
00:28:37
and um you know and then you're kind of making these decisions to you know because your
00:28:41
shareholders are saying well you had a good return quickly give me the shares back and let me and mark your profit and
00:28:46
take your share and i was also more interested in look the fact is over time there's always going to be opportunities
00:28:52
to chase with the capital so if we have a great gain if something works out really well we can take the the gain and
00:28:58
we can reinvest that capital in building new things there's no shortage of opportunities to pursue for the rest of
00:29:03
my life so that's why i set up the production board initially in partnership with
00:29:07
alphabet and then later on we brought in you know bill gates and other allen and
00:29:11
co and other kind of investors that have a similar sort of mindset which is like
00:29:14
let's just if we have an exit recycle that capital and continuously they're not looking for a quick win they don't
00:29:21
have pension payments to make right they don't have a reason to distribute cash and so same with me like i don't have a
00:29:26
reason to take cash out so the objective was just build this thing over time and
00:29:30
grow value over time and that's why i set it up the way i did and i think it allows us to make you know really
00:29:36
long-term bets that are super risky most of what we're doing is super technical and and difficult and maybe
00:29:42
very hard to pull off uh many of which are still after many years in a very early you need very patient capital
00:29:48
patient capital and also the you know the preference for not trying to find exits but i have
00:29:54
found this i'll tell you one thing i have been through a number of circumstances where i have seen
00:29:58
businesses i've been an investor in or involved in that have traded long-term value for short-term opportunity meaning
00:30:05
there's an opportunity to make a business that you can then go raise capital against you change your strategy
00:30:10
to do that then you go raise vc funding and now the business looks like it's working but the 10x or 100x opportunity
00:30:16
was taken off the table because you ended up going down this different path that was a sure thing that was more
00:30:22
likely to work that created value in the short term that allowed you to mark up your investment or raise capital against
00:30:27
that but you gave up the big long term thing and i think that's something i've been trying to avoid with the structure
00:30:32
and it certainly makes sense with some of these other folks and what they're trying to do so what we're getting at
00:30:37
here saks is decision making by capital allocators and on behalf of their lps or letting
00:30:44
the lps make those decisions inevitably the crypto world says well why aren't you just doing this in a dow
00:30:51
and you know having some decentralized authority make the decisions i had vanillin i've had a conversation
00:30:59
with our friend vinnie lingam uh after the solana stuff and and multi-coin capital
00:31:04
and we were talking about dows for early stage investing or syndicates and just brainstorming hey is there a way to do
00:31:10
this and the problem i came to every time was should a bunch of folks be making decisions who are not meeting with the
00:31:18
companies or meeting with 2000 companies a year what are your thoughts on a dao representing sort of what we
00:31:27
collectively do but we all do it obviously in different flavors this actually exist yep
00:31:33
well there have been dows that have existed to vote on buying nfts so yes for collectibles i mean i kind of feel
00:31:39
like i'll let you know when it actually gets here so open-minded to it but who knows yeah
00:31:44
but i mean we talk about these things as if they already are here and they're not
00:31:47
quite here i mean technically i know they they exist but people haven't really figured out how to
00:31:52
use them to you know to be a fund manager for example i think david's right i think the
00:31:58
look i i there there are these three immutable features of web 3.0 that we're going to have to figure out over the
00:32:06
next few years so the obvious ones are decentralization right that makes sense the second obvious one is the level of
00:32:13
composability which means that you're plug and play with everything um but the third one is this idea of
00:32:19
democratization and governance right and that's where dows come in and david's right we don't really know what the
00:32:25
boundaries of that feature is i think it exists in some small level scale but we need to have many iterations of
00:32:35
companies get built to figure out what it'll mean so i don't know i'm taking a pretty
00:32:41
traditional approach jason which is that you know it's kind of like a crawl walk
00:32:45
run strategy right now i'm in the crawling phase and i'm kind of saying how did web 1.0 and web 2.0 develop and i'm
00:32:54
trying just copying it so you know in web 1.0 and 2.0 you needed companies like sun
00:33:00
microsystems and cisco and you know all of the plumbers foundational stuff to build plumbing for the internet to allow
00:33:08
the thousand flowers to bloom at the application level and you know we had a very good
00:33:13
reference model by the way for web 1.0 for most people if you want to look at it it's called the osi reference stack
00:33:18
and if you actually look at that osi stack you can translate that to all kinds of value creation over the
00:33:25
first you know two arcs of the internet over 20 years trillions of dollars was created by just following each of those
00:33:31
substrates um and in those transitional layers was where these great beautiful companies
00:33:36
were built and i think similarly we're going to do that again but we need a different stack
00:33:40
to represent what web pre is so yeah you know this week we did something which was pretty straightforward which
00:33:46
was this idea that if you're going to build all these apps you're going to need a distributed compute
00:33:52
infrastructure which means you're going to need very simple building blocks like
00:33:55
remote procedure calls rpc that exists in web 2.0 it's kind of a not something you don't really think
00:34:01
about but in web 3 doesn't exist and so it's all this aws you know gcp like infrastructure
00:34:07
that has to get built and that's what syndicate does and i almost i think that's um a really very
00:34:13
interesting uh observation there because everybody is trying to go to the application level and talk about the
00:34:19
consumer experience but before you even have the ability you know we're talking about cars before we've
00:34:25
even made a transmission or you know that's exactly right this is why crypto comes across as so delusional and
00:34:31
strange sometimes they wrote 000 ico papers none of them were about infrastructure
00:34:36
they were all about some sort of end game but the thing is it's a very delicate balancing act right you need a
00:34:41
handful of companies that capture consumer imagination right that then incentivize all of the plumbing
00:34:47
companies to come in and build underneath it right so it's a customer it's a very delicate balancing act right
00:34:52
so you needed compuserve in order to enable a bunch of companies then you needed aol in order to enable
00:34:57
another set then you needed yahoo then you needed google and in all of that what happened was people were pulled
00:35:03
through right you needed amazon commerce to justify aws so we're in that world where it's going
00:35:11
to be a little back and forth where the pendulum will swing back and forth between consumer experiences that
00:35:15
capture imagination get to some level of scale that then create incentives for the developer ecosystem and the
00:35:22
technology infrastructure to catch up uh zillow which we talked about previously
00:35:26
became an eye buyer what's an eye buyer that means you buy a bunch of single family homes in all likelihood
00:35:33
like open door and redfin have been doing and then you hope to flip them uh maybe improve them and uh maybe lower
00:35:41
cost to the consumers by taking out real estate brokers this has created a lot of
00:35:46
bad feelings amongst real estate brokers a tick tock video trended a couple of months ago where a broker said or
00:35:53
accused zillow of buying up these homes in order to do price fixing and to corner the market on
00:35:59
homes well uh it turns out that zillow which has an incredible ceo uh in rich barton and has
00:36:06
done tremendously over the decades according ahead of their earnings call this week bloomberg reported zillow is
00:36:12
trying to offload seven thousand seven thousand homes for 2.8 billion that's about a 400k average per
00:36:19
home and zillow shares dropped 37 this week alone from 100 to 66. their market cap
00:36:26
has dropped nine billion throughout the week uh and they're down 70 from a peak valuation of 48 billion just in february
00:36:33
about six months ago zillow is going to reduce its workforce by 25 over the next few months i'm
00:36:39
assuming that's all those eye buyers anecdotally a lot of what i'm hearing is they bought homes indiscriminately the
00:36:46
anecdotal stories that are breaking on twitter and other forums with real estate brokers are they would look at a
00:36:51
home they didn't know that it had a noisy neighbor or it was near power lines or
00:36:56
whatever the people who came in bought them indiscriminately maybe too fast whereas some other companies maybe open
00:37:01
door or redfin were more considered i actually had glenn from redfin on the pod not long ago and he said it's a very
00:37:07
hard operational business you have to be very careful on what you buy in your entry price that seems to have turned
00:37:12
out to be true what do you think friedrich rich barton who runs zillow is considered a legend in silicon valley
00:37:20
you know he um uh has been involved in some of the most successful internet companies um and you know when he
00:37:28
stepped back in as the founder of zillow stepped back in to run the business a few years ago it was viewed as kind of a
00:37:33
second you know resurrection of this business and he was going to take it into new
00:37:38
areas and then three and a half years ago he announced the cyber program which everyone thought was such a you know
00:37:43
incredibly strong move and obviously chased open door which champ is involved in and i'm sure we'll share more on but
00:37:49
it was such an obvious opportunity that if you could add liquidity to the real estate market the residential real
00:37:55
estate market there's an incredible amount of value to be had now the way that they wrote about it
00:38:00
when they talked about it initially and then the way that they've kind of talked
00:38:03
about in their earnings report this week was that they were trying to be a quote
00:38:06
market maker in the business and it turned out that what they were really doing was being more of a
00:38:11
speculator right a market maker looks at bids and asks in the spread and then tries to to create a gap in that spread
00:38:16
and make and take some share of it and by adding that liquidity the idea is the spreads can narrow and they can make
00:38:23
money in this case they were looking at the historical velocity of selling prices of homes and
00:38:31
using that as a way to kind of project what was going to happen which makes them much more of a speculator than a
00:38:37
market maker and they clearly got this wrong and their kind of quote-unquote models on
00:38:43
you know where prices headed ended up getting them in trouble there's also the inherent conflict where they are now
00:38:48
competing in a way with the brokers that generate a lot of revenue for them and are a big part of their core business
00:38:54
and they were clearly um you know cannibalizing their own business where the zestimate and some of
00:38:59
the other scoring that they provide as a data and analytics platform to both sides of the existing market
00:39:04
starts to get blown up because they're coming in and saying we're going to put our you know our foot down and say this
00:39:08
is what the value is and it inevitably kind of cannibalizes the core product that they provide to both sides of the
00:39:14
market so you know one could argue this was flawed from the beginning the execution clearly was way off and it
00:39:19
begs the question you know where was leadership and kind of tracking what was going on here is these guys were buying
00:39:25
homes at market prices that are well above what they were actually selling for in the market no one was actually
00:39:30
doing on-the-ground work they were all doing kind of speculative models and saying this is what we think will happen
00:39:35
and then they woke up way too late and um lost way too much money i think they lost 300 million dollars in the quarter
00:39:42
so um you know really a lot of questions and a lot of challenges on this um i'm sure chemat has a point of view on you
00:39:48
know what makes opendoor distinct from from zillow um but there's a really important kind of you know um underlying
00:39:55
here you know yeah the maturity of a silicon valley uh entrepreneur who's crushed it so many
00:40:01
times uh doesn't mean that they're perfect and you know this was a big mess you can go really too fast into a turn
00:40:07
here and clearly they flip the car chamoth i i don't know how comfortable you are talking about this interesting
00:40:12
very comfortable okay well then here we go number one you know i'm not on the board
00:40:18
um of open door of open door maybe tell us about your history with open door chim off would be super look i
00:40:24
look i am one of the largest individual shareholders of that company i think somewhere between three and four percent
00:40:29
of the business i own we you know i came to own those shares with a large investment uh as well as
00:40:37
through the transaction uh where we merged one of our specs into it and took it out
00:40:44
ipob yes couple things to say the first is about the ceo and founder of opendoor
00:40:52
eric wu is special special special so let me just leave it at that on that topic the second is i think that
00:41:02
rich barton is very special but it speaks to two big mistakes that zillow made the first is that
00:41:11
catching a wave of disruption is very difficult when you have an old line business that is fundamentally
00:41:19
competitive with the new line of business and zillow as david said had this thing
00:41:24
called zestimate whose entire job was to directionally drive top of funnel traffic into the rest of
00:41:30
their media business now imagine you go to a website to look up your house value or somebody else's
00:41:36
house value accuracy is a bug the feature that makes this estimate work is a highly inflated house price
00:41:46
right like if you go and you see a crazy house price number that's interesting that's more um
00:41:53
click-worthy than if you go in there and it shows some depressed value you think
00:41:57
the sight sucks that's the unfortunate psychological reaction so i think whether we believe it or not or whether
00:42:03
zillow knew it or not zestimate over time basically calcified this idea of price inflation
00:42:11
so the accuracy was never a goal so then if you take that business and then you try to orient it towards home
00:42:17
buying and you use probably zestimate or some version of it to underpin how you buy and take risk
00:42:23
it creates a lot of risk and i think this is essentially what played out where they were over buying homes and
00:42:28
they didn't know how to price this stuff accurately so you know my partner ravi tweeted this out but
00:42:33
you know uh the open door margin on average is about ten percent the zillow margin on average was three percent so
00:42:39
they had a much more razor thin margin of safety here which again speaks to pricing and then it speaks to this third
00:42:46
thing which is that if you start doing one thing and do it really well with software
00:42:53
the gains over years really compound and so when somebody else shows up and tries
00:42:58
to pivot their business to try to copy it it's very very difficult the classic example is google versus yahoo yahoo had
00:43:05
a beautiful directory driven business but when larry and sergey really larry invented pagerank and then invented that
00:43:12
first version of a google search index as we saw it play out over the next 10 or 15 years it was impossible for yahoo
00:43:20
to really invest the technology the technical capital necessary to catch up with google and every day and every week
00:43:27
and every year as friedrich talked about last week those technical gains compound and
00:43:32
compounded now google is completely unassailable with respect to search i suspect we will look back
00:43:39
and the ability to accurately forecast price and volatility and the ability to sell these assets
00:43:48
at a defined margin of safety in a predictable way is something software can solve
00:43:55
and it seems that open door is the first it doesn't necessarily mean it'll be the
00:44:00
only one but it has an enormous head start now and as long as they can keep iterating
00:44:06
those gains will compound um so that's what i think i just think this is a wonderful business
00:44:12
run by an incredible ceo to wrap up this uh zillow story saks uh any thoughts on
00:44:18
you know jamaat's point here you know you're the rating agency and you add this business and the business it might
00:44:24
be orthogonal to the existing money printing machine on a strategic basis what do you think
00:44:30
any lessons or mistakes here uh in terms of when you handicap zillow or do you want to just move on to truck politics i
00:44:36
mean look i'm a i was a c investor in open door because rabbi invited me to the seed round so
00:44:42
you know i'm a little biased here but i think it's pretty obvious what happened zillow tried to copy them the business
00:44:48
is much more operationally complicated than they realized it's a low business low margin business with the which
00:44:54
requires a ton of capital so if you're off a little bit the losses can be huge and zillow couldn't figure it out they
00:45:01
underestimate the difficulty that's what frequently happens when a big company tries to
00:45:05
copy a smaller sort of upstart company so i mean that to me is what happened in a nutshell quite frankly we're an hour
00:45:11
into this pod we haven't discussed issues any issue that i think is broadly relevant to most americans i think this
00:45:17
is one of our worst episodes we're going to bore everyone to tears i frankly don't understand what the [ __ ] you're
00:45:21
doing i don't even know why we have a topic list when you start pulling it out of your ass like dolls and i don't know
00:45:26
what the [ __ ] else all right all right fine we'll talk about politics i thought
00:45:29
the dow question sucked all right i'm just giving you the opportunity that we shouldn't even be talking about
00:45:37
cut it out of the show this whole episode should be cut jesus christ episodes yeah i agree i think we should cut all
00:45:45
that it's going great what do you know jason jason i agree that that part where we
00:45:50
cut it that's all right fine you got some [ __ ] loser i'm trying to give you guys the benefit of the doubt to
00:45:56
just because it was like no one cares all right fight calm down everybody you want to talk about politics we talk
00:46:02
about politics okay saks go ahead tell us about the election okay i'll just rattle off some of the key results here
00:46:07
from blue states we have a woke lash going on all across the country that's the important thing
00:46:13
in virginia a state that biden one by ten he's cranking a huge upset republican glenn younkin beat terry
00:46:19
mcauliffe a former governor there he was this was a huge upset mcauliffe was supposed to win younkin won
00:46:26
51-48 so that's a 13 point swing uh versus where biden was just a year ago in new jersey a state
00:46:36
that biden won by 16 points the democrat held on to it but only by 1.5 points and
00:46:41
i bet you anything the rnc is kicking itself they didn't give any money to chaturelli who's the challenger who i
00:46:47
think almost became very very close and there were down ticket seats that went republican so the the um
00:46:57
this is really interesting in south jersey which is a blue-collar bastion for democrats sweeney versus
00:47:03
burr that's right the democratic state senate leader steve sweeney lost to a truck driver named ed durr who spent a
00:47:10
grand total of 153 dollars on his campaign okay so those were some and then we had
00:47:15
someone say write in like he was printing on others to say write me in i think i don't think he's a writer but
00:47:21
but any event so so implications for 2022 dave wasserman of cook political report calculates somewhere between a 44
00:47:28
and 51 c game from the gop they only need five seats to win the majority so it's looking very bleak for the
00:47:34
democrats in 2022 and then i think you also had some very interesting local elections in minneapolis voters rejected
00:47:42
a proposal to defund the police with 56 percent of the vote uh they there was a ballot proposition
00:47:49
to change the police department into some sort of larger public safety group voters were having none of it
00:47:56
in seattle which is a very liberal city they voted for a literal republican as city attorney which is the office that
00:48:03
prosecutes misdemeanors so against a police abolitionist who said she would stop prosecuting misdemeanors
00:48:11
you're forgetting that in virginia it wasn't just glenn younkin that won but basically it was terry mcauliffe
00:48:17
and then a lieutenant governor who is some milk toast individual and an attorney general candidate who
00:48:24
was caught in blackface which by the way there is no more racist thing you can do just to let you guys
00:48:30
let everybody in all the non-colors okay that guys please don't do blackface or brown face it's
00:48:36
such a bad it's it's not it's not you're right it was a sweep so the lieutenant and
00:48:40
junkin and it was a it was a black female lieutenant governor and a latino attorney general that's right and they
00:48:46
swept right so that's right that's right so the lieutenant governor was winston sears uh she's a a black woman
00:48:52
republican if you've seen the photo of her she's frequently photographed with a giant assault rifle in her hands uh
00:48:58
that's her and then the hispanic attorney general jason miyari's uh one as well so yeah it was a huge sweep
00:49:06
and then you know in long island and staten island which again are blue counties you had two republican
00:49:11
prosecutors beat the local sort of incumbent democrat decarceration rad just i think i think this is very
00:49:19
clear which is um trump was behaviorally extreme and after four years people were sick of it
00:49:29
nobody wanted that behavioral extremism because it was unpredictable and people felt frankly in danger and i think that
00:49:35
that was legitimate he also turned out to be extremely lazy and probably pretty dumb
00:49:41
now what we're realizing is the different form of extremism which is policy extremism will also be met with
00:49:47
the same response which is that you you can't sustain election results and wins right so people care consistently
00:49:53
about three things they care about the economy they care about the education of their
00:49:58
children and they care about safety and the thing that glenn younkin did which i thought was
00:50:06
at least a playbook for centrists and the right and it's also a playbook for the democrats if they
00:50:12
choose to embrace it is to understand that these things are reaching a tipping point where you know again we've said
00:50:18
this before it is possible to live in a state of mind where you believe in black lives
00:50:23
matter and you believe in law and order right and and when you try to pit those two
00:50:29
things against each other for example like you would have thought the one place where they would have basically defunded
00:50:35
the police in its entirety would have been minneapolis after george floyd but instead even they drew the line and said
00:50:41
no or new york or new york there was a there was a really compelling quote actually by this
00:50:47
woman i think it was in the new york times um and what she said was i didn't elect joe
00:50:52
biden to be fdr i elected him to tack to the middle and just calm things down so
00:50:58
that everybody could exhale so that we could reset same with me and what's up that was abigail spamberger actually
00:51:05
she's a virginia democrat yeah she's a virginia democrat who won a seat in one of those blue counties that just flipped
00:51:11
red to vote for yunkan and since she got elected i guess she got elected last year she's been telling the democratic
00:51:18
party she's the one who called out pelosi in that you know caucus meeting saying i
00:51:23
don't ever want to hear the words defund the police again that is electoral poison and then she said yes nobody
00:51:28
elected biden to be fdr they elect him to be normal and stop the chaos and so certainly my vote yeah yeah
00:51:34
there's a big backlash going on because biden has decided to start governing like bernie sanders no one elected him
00:51:39
to do that so sax is the lesson dems learned this time around is it's very easy to beat
00:51:46
trump but it's very hard to beat a moderate republican no no it's not that it's that you just
00:51:52
have to be a rational normal person that's what i mean by a moderate republican well you just have to be
00:51:58
moderate i don't think it matters when this is but this is the key to the condems it was so easy for them to use
00:52:03
trump you know but these three topics are not a republican tent pole nor are they a
00:52:08
democratic temple they are the tentpole of reasonable people yes meaning which most people are reasonable hey guys get
00:52:15
out of the way so that we can you know have a reasonable life in an economy hey folks please make sure my kids when
00:52:21
i send them to school for eight hours a day come back reasonably educated and please keep my streets safe and i'm not
00:52:27
really willing to decarcerate ad hoc to such a degree that all of a sudden crime gets out of control those
00:52:33
are not democratic or republican tent poles those are just moderate centrist rational things to believe in yeah being
00:52:39
and also behave normally like i i think whatever happened with these progresses where they couldn't pass you know the
00:52:45
stimulus bills and things that almost everybody agreed on glenn younkin was not behaviorally extremist yes and and
00:52:53
from a policy perspective was pretty much down the middle eric adams eric adams is not behaviorally extreme and he
00:53:01
is politically down the middle the mayor of buffalo who got reelected is not behaviorally extreme and he's
00:53:08
politically down the middle do you start to see a pattern here yeah nobody wants
00:53:11
aoc bernie elizabeth warren or trump i think it's not it's not a question of aoc or bernie or trump it's just that
00:53:18
right now the temperature of america is let's just all exhale and just re-center ourselves
00:53:25
as a country yeah and so moderation and centrism is actually what calls for today i don't know how to predict what
00:53:32
happens in 15 or 20 years and maybe aoc is the canary in the coal mine for where
00:53:37
the country goes by a plurality of people in 15 or 20 years but what's clear is it's not where it goes today
00:53:44
and i think that we it all behooves us to just take a real step back and exhale and just read the tea leaves because
00:53:50
every single thing that the democrats tried to do to sort of like make this extreme really didn't
00:53:56
work the race-baiting all of that stuff really kind of failed and i think that that's important to listen to you know
00:54:03
because you had a lot of black indian chinese families that just showed up hispanics
00:54:08
you know that again reliable democratic voters and voted for glenn younkin in a way
00:54:14
that was surprising to me right and then so if you compare new jersey and and um
00:54:20
virginia biden won virginia by 10. he the the democratic nominee lost biden won new jersey by 16
00:54:31
and phil murphy barely sweeped by it was like 10 000 votes here she's always had
00:54:35
a a republican kind of uh leaning group uh they're very uh tuned in one by 16. this should have been a cakewalk yeah
00:54:42
but i think that's 16 how much of that is get trump out of office is what we i think the democrats need to parse
00:54:50
we're repudiating behavioral extremism and policy extremism so i think we just need to realize
00:54:56
rational normal chill people who can do reasonable things get our kids educated so for example on the
00:55:03
education front i don't know if you guys saw this because i tweeted and you can put this
00:55:07
nick in the group chat but in california right now there's a battle over math class ridiculous right where the title
00:55:14
i'm just going to read the title because it sets it up california tries to close
00:55:17
the gap in math but sets off a backlash proposed guidelines in the state would de-emphasize calculus
00:55:23
reject the idea that some children are naturally gifted and build a connection to social justice
00:55:29
critics say math shouldn't be political well of course the way that those articles are always written it's always
00:55:35
about the backlash you know they don't talk about what what the people in charge are trying to do to basically
00:55:41
degrade the curriculum of course there's a backlash because parents don't like what the people on these school boards
00:55:45
are doing this was the sleeper issue in virginia was the school board issue you had
00:55:52
you know parents were already angry that the teachers unions had kept the schools
00:55:55
close for a year and a half during covet and while their kids were at home you know work doing classes over zoom
00:56:02
parents got a good look at what some of their kids were learning and then like what they saw i mean we're talking about
00:56:07
lessons plans that incorporated crt and you know the 16-19 project view of america singling out kids by their race
00:56:14
making them focus on difference and then there were some you know rather explicit
00:56:19
materials at young grade levels about you know lgbt issues and so this led to a whole bunch of confrontations that
00:56:25
school board memes were parents of all races objected to you know the lease lesson
00:56:31
plans for for their kids and the school boards and administrators just dismissed
00:56:35
their complaints out of hand and you know their message was we're not teaching cr teacher kids uh but if we
00:56:41
were it's a good thing and only white supremacists would object so you know that was sort of what was
00:56:47
happening in the background and then mcauliffe comes along and makes this gigantic gaffe
00:56:52
in the last debates about two weeks before the election where he says i don't think parents should be telling
00:56:56
the schools what to teach and what yes this is the customer no he said that he said that on a debate
00:57:03
and he said that debate about two weeks for the election mcauliffe was leading through this whole thing until that
00:57:08
debate where and this was sort of a kinsley gaffe in the sense that you know michael
00:57:12
kinsley set a gaffe is when a candidate inadvertently uh says something true you know this is
00:57:17
mccalla's view is that the teachers union should be controlling the schools not the parents well
00:57:22
um yes so this is what yanking uh jumped all over all of his ads in the last weeks of the campaign really focused on
00:57:31
this issue you know poured gasoline on a fire and then the most tone-deaf thing mcauliffe
00:57:36
did is he had randy weingarten who was the head of the the big teachers union come in and campaign for him at the 11th
00:57:42
hour well of course that's not going to save him because people are sick and tired of the teachers unions so you know
00:57:49
this was basically the big sleeper issue crt and the schools in virginia and you know this is this i think
00:57:58
specifically is what the democratic party has to wake up to is that these progressive ideologies are not popular
00:58:04
the other thing i'll say about glen yonkin is that this is another thing that the that the republicans should
00:58:09
hopefully pay attention to which is you can look normal act normal be normal you know this is not an extremist in any
00:58:18
way this guy was the co-ceo of carlisle which is a huge and very successful private equity firm so this is a very
00:58:25
rational reasonable person who um you know didn't embrace anything that was really that pro-trump
00:58:33
and that should be a real wake-up call to the republicans which is hey let's just run a fleet of normal people i
00:58:39
think what you saw i think chamath is right that what you saw in virginia is that the playbook that gavin newsom just
00:58:45
used to defeat the recall in california did not work in virginia which is he tried to
00:58:52
paint yunkan as a trump proxy and young can very definitely you know avoided that he got trump's yes he got
00:59:00
trump's endorsement but very early in the process he did not have trump come to the state
00:59:05
um and you'd have to say it also helped younken a lot that social media that trump wasn't all over social media
00:59:10
because he's been banned so you know in a weird way facebook and twitter deserve an assist here
00:59:16
because they help keep trump out of the virginia race so you know this playbook that that
00:59:22
newsom defined that would work very effectively from california which is simply to keep running against trump i
00:59:27
think democrats thought they'd be able to win elections for years based on that that playbook didn't even last two
00:59:32
months so you know so i think democrats are gonna have to find a new playbook here
00:59:38
okay so friedberg on this california issue around education one of the key or most controversial
00:59:45
concepts is detracting in other words instead of having high performing students go to a high performing track
00:59:51
and then everybody else stay behind maybe keep in not all cases but keep some of the students together because
00:59:57
there is some research that shows if done right if you track people together the higher
01:00:03
performing students will pull up the ones who are slightly behind other people say we're basically
01:00:10
uh throttling people who could be the next einstein or the next world-class leader in science math etc uh any
01:00:17
thoughts on the concept of detracting since i'm assuming you were in the high-speed track in science and
01:00:23
math maybe we should get rid of like jv and varsity sports teams as well and you
01:00:31
know triple a baseball and major league baseball as well and you know any distinction of performance um or
01:00:38
exceptionalism goes away you know and and that is kind of the the key social question is are we going to give
01:00:46
up exceptionalism um to minimize uh the distance uh between the exception on the average and
01:00:53
that seems to me if it makes people it makes people feel bad but i've said this point before you know we're doing it
01:00:59
when we try and think about you know the billionaire attacks or what have you as soon as you start to limit progress
01:01:05
um you reduce inequality but you limit progress and the same will be true not just in science not just in
01:01:13
business uh but also in sports and athletics and um and any other kind of system
01:01:19
where you will have exceptionalism you will have an average you will have a distribution
01:01:24
amongst human performance and as soon as we try and limit the difference in that
01:01:29
distribution um we move the entire curve to the left here's the uh counterfeit bird
01:01:37
what some studies have shown is yes you will uh throttle the high performers but
01:01:42
we're seeing uh along race lines certain demographics being left behind other ones excelling
01:01:48
and that you can get yeah it's an ethics and values question right like do you think that individual freedom and the
01:01:53
opportunity to pursue your opportunity your your exceptionalism um should be taken away from you such
01:02:01
that others who aren't as exceptional as you are given um you know greater progress
01:02:06
than they would have had on their own um and that's the key crux of what all of these social systems are grappling with
01:02:12
whether it's in sports or business or finance or or um or education is what's the right thing
01:02:19
to do and that ethics question is going to be defined by the social agenda of the moment and you know the means of the
01:02:25
moment and what we all think is is the right thing to do and it's different all over the world and it's different within
01:02:30
political systems but it's a very divisive point that i think folks who find themselves
01:02:35
on one end of that exceptional spectrum in different aspects are going to have one point of view and folks on the other
01:02:40
end of that exceptional spectrum are going to have other points of view and everyone's going to be sensitively tuned
01:02:45
to where they fall in that spectrum i will say one thing though on that spectrum exceptionalism is rarer
01:02:51
than the average therefore it is likely the case that over the next years and decades we will see
01:02:56
the um the idea that we should remove exceptionalism in business and exceptionalism and education and
01:03:01
exceptionalism in sports because it benefits the majority and um and no one kind of recognizes and
01:03:09
a lot of folks don't recognize the progress that is made by exceptionalism and um and that's and then we're gonna
01:03:15
wake up one day and be like oh wait a second we don't have the the best sports teams winning all the gold medals we
01:03:20
don't have the smartest kids we don't have the best businesses china and europe and brazil and whoever else the
01:03:26
emerging markets are gonna india are gonna start to have them such a good point i think this is a very old debate
01:03:32
it's the debate between a quality of opportunity and a quality of results yeah and the progressive left is
01:03:37
absolutely obsessed with a quality of results or outcomes which they now call equity which is we're going to take
01:03:44
people at the finish line and we're going to move them around we're going to redistribute the outcomes to achieve a
01:03:50
more proportional representation or something more fair as opposed to giving everybody as much opportunity at
01:03:57
the outset as possible that is the fixation right now that is why they're taking out advanced math in the schools
01:04:03
they're trying to level people it's not going to work it doesn't lead to a more we want to have an exceptional society
01:04:09
where i think we should be focusing is creating as much opportunity for everybody the way to do that would be to
01:04:13
let every child go to the school of their choosing so that we would stop trapping kids in bad schools but back to
01:04:21
kind of to bring this back to the election for a second because i think it was a very clear repudiation of this
01:04:26
progressive mindset and i think there's essentially two sets of reactions to it if you look at sort of all the left-wing
01:04:33
commentators the the one who i thought seemed to get it the most was cnn's uh van jones
01:04:41
actually had i thought you know a rare moment of introspection where he said this was the the results were a
01:04:48
five alarm fire he said it was a big big wake-up call for the democrats to stop annoying voters with woke hectoring
01:04:54
um he actually advised biden to start triangulating against awoke left in the way that bill clinton did i mean which
01:05:01
is something that i've been suggesting on this pod so you're saying something super important the game theory now is
01:05:06
for biden to put to the test the progressive left because now he can go firmly to the center
01:05:13
and he can put all of the pressure on the progressive left in the house and uh warren and
01:05:22
bernie sanders in the senate well he's right that's the first thing he should do is he should
01:05:27
he should pull a sister soldier on bernie sanders he can't keep delegating the domestic agenda to bernie sanders he
01:05:34
if he wants to save his presidency he'll start triangulating in the way that bill
01:05:36
clinton did i'm not sure he's going to i think there's already a misperception that the reason why they lost selection
01:05:43
is because they didn't deliver the goodies in this house reconciliation bill um that in other words i don't
01:05:50
think the public cares about the goodies i mean they care about this normalcy and
01:05:53
centrism yeah there there's a part of the democratic base that does want the what's in that house reconciliation bill
01:05:59
but but here's the thing democratic turnout in this election was extremely high the democratic turnout for
01:06:05
mcauliffe was higher than the democratic turnout four years ago for the democrat who won
01:06:11
the turnout that in new jersey was higher than what murphy got four years ago when he won
01:06:16
the problem that democrats have is that republican turnout was extremely high even without trump showing that trump
01:06:22
doesn't matter that much to turn out and the independence came out in a big way for republicans so this
01:06:29
idea that democrats can just win elections by delivering you know programs for their base
01:06:36
that's not going to work so i think that's a misperception i think van jones has the right idea they need to
01:06:41
triangulate but you turn the channel to msnbc and they were just blaming the whole thing on white supremacy basically
01:06:47
hysterical um just on the de-tracking thing this shows to me a severe lack of creativity
01:06:53
you if you look at what happened in the nba they had this developmental league which they didn't kind of run then
01:06:58
became the g league they now have the ability to bring players fluidly from the warriors g league team up to
01:07:04
the warriors or the next team up to the knicks what this means is you don't have to say there's two
01:07:09
different tracks and the the two never shall meet in the season they can move up and down in math
01:07:15
a very easy solution to this would be to have the high track for high performers
01:07:20
have the regular track and then spend with all this money we have say hey every school is going to be open from
01:07:25
three to five o'clock four days a week if anybody wants to attempt to get into a higher track of
01:07:31
math just stay after school for two hours anybody can go and get one-on-one tutoring and just don't change the
01:07:37
number of teachers the whole country wants excellence they don't want leveling they don't want equity they
01:07:43
don't want a quality of results they want to have a quality volunteer david wants people to move up they do want to
01:07:48
see that's true and brown students and immigrants do better at math that's what you're missing yes and that's about a
01:07:54
quality of opportunity absolutely no it's not just about equal opportunity they're so far behind statistically that
01:08:00
you need to do something new what we're doing is not working david that's why people are picking this bad
01:08:05
they're they are eliminating advanced math because they don't want to actually look
01:08:10
at the the problem what do you see the problem is well if there's another performance a certain group then you
01:08:15
should work harder to raise them up not eliminated give me a suggestion it's charters and
01:08:21
school choice okay look i mean if you're if you if you're gonna define structural racism as
01:08:27
conditions that that trap people of color in poverty across generations seems like a pretty fair definition then
01:08:33
you have to say the number one cause of structural racism is the school system school system education yeah it's the
01:08:39
school system because we know poor kids are trapped in schools that aren't very good why because they're controlled by
01:08:45
the education unions they don't have your choices so who is making that argument uh on the
01:08:51
on the side of the left no one why because everyone knows the unions especially the education unions are the
01:08:57
number one donor to the democratic party so the democrats won't even look at this
01:09:00
problem although this is the way white supremacy could build their base is by saying we want to fix education
01:09:07
that would be if you've seen education what do you think young industry in virginia by the way 55
01:09:12
of hispanics in virginia voted for yunkan so minorities are shifting on this issue and school choices
01:09:22
these are the new quality of life issues if yunkan has a a good four years in virginia he can run for president and
01:09:28
crush this thing can i show you just one one chart and then we can get off the politics thing which is it was this
01:09:33
chart from this guy patrick uh raffini who's a pollster and i think it really illustrates the problem that progresses
01:09:40
the democratic party for the listener okay so what this chart shows is it basically shows where the democratic
01:09:49
the democratic party is and the senate republican party is in relation to the center of the country okay and basically
01:09:55
as you'd expect in a democracy whichever party is closer to five wins okay so in 1994 when bill clinton was president
01:10:04
the democratic party the center of it was smack dab as five the republicans weren't that far away they were six so
01:10:10
the party even though there is a lot of partisan warfare the the political differences actually
01:10:16
weren't that great and clinton i think more accurately found that dead center okay fast forward to 2004. so george w
01:10:24
bush is president now the democrats are at four republicans are at five that's why republicans won okay now go to 2017
01:10:32
these poll numbers he did and this is a few years ago the democrats are all the way at two
01:10:38
okay and the republicans are at six and a half so it's true that both parties have moved away from the center but
01:10:44
republicans are one and a half points away from the center whereas democrats are three points away so the democrats
01:10:49
have actually moved further away from the center if you look at who are the activists in the democratic party who is
01:10:55
the base who is the energy who does all the work who does the contributions it is the progressives right this is why
01:11:02
mcauliffe ran as mcauliffe is not a progressive he was the clinton democrat you know going way back to the 90s okay
01:11:09
he was bill clinton's you know uh right-hand man in the party back in the 90s but he nevertheless ran
01:11:15
as a progressive in virginia who supported the teachers unions why because he was appealing to the base of
01:11:21
the party gavin newsom did the same thing in california gavin was never a bernie bro i mean he's always been
01:11:27
liberal but he he has moved very far left and biden has moved very far left as president why is that because the
01:11:34
base of the party has moved very far left so unless that gets fixed i see maybe it's going to the party's base but
01:11:42
not the countries exactly so you're going to need a strong democrat who can basically give the heisman to that part
01:11:49
of the base or they're going to keep losing elections i think this could be a republican decade i know it doesn't seem
01:11:55
like it right now because you had trump and the republicans lost but look how quickly the republicans turned around
01:12:01
their electoral fortunes so with trump on the sidelines then that's just a huge trump is the nominee in 2024 all bets
01:12:10
are off but in 2022 he's not the nominee he's still censored from social media he's really nowhere in sight and people
01:12:18
people have a very short um memory it turns out they've moved on very quickly young can check the box because he felt
01:12:26
he had to to get the nomination and to run on the republican platform but then you think yunkan's
01:12:32
going to talk to trump once no not once and i think and i honestly think this election is going to help
01:12:38
republicans move past trump because what republican believes in um in like that the electoral system is
01:12:44
rigged now right i mean all these blue cities and states just delivered big results for
01:12:49
republicans so where exactly is the ballot stuffing where exactly is the stall where are the stolen
01:12:55
elections that's going to that's going to stop now too they're going to stop it's going to stop overnight right
01:12:58
because i mean by the way kristen cinema probably knows this like you know the the the funny thing about all of this is
01:13:04
when peter thiel put in 10 million dollars into this pack for blake masters who used to work for him and said you
01:13:10
know in arizona i'm going to run this guy against you cinema attacked heart to the center
01:13:16
instantly so she she knew too yeah well so so just this small point of course so blake is
01:13:21
running against uh the other guy um the astronaut guy i'm spacing on his name but but yeah but but cinema is up so to
01:13:28
speak uh in the next election cycle so she got a little bit more time but you're right like cinema is attuned and
01:13:34
mansion is attuned there are some of the few democrats that are attuned to where
01:13:39
the center of the country is you heard a mansion in the wake of this election said this is a center-right country
01:13:44
these guys better wake up um you know they should really now look i think i think what's going to happen in the wake
01:13:49
of this election is that this infrastructure bill is going to sail through because one of the
01:13:54
crazier things that the progressives were doing was holding that bill hostage it might have helped mcauliffe i don't
01:13:59
think would a i don't think mcauliffe would have won but it might have helped him by a point or two if they had gotten
01:14:03
that infrastructure bill done because a lot of those programs are going to be popular in a state like virginia okay
01:14:09
but i mean but but i think that you know this house reconciliation bill they just
01:14:13
seemed hell-bent on jamming it through with all these tax increases i don't think that's not popular you
01:14:18
know what the big issue in new jersey is for them yeah one of the big issues in new jersey where you almost had this
01:14:23
upset within one point was taxes you know um there was a a gaffe by murphy who said something like you know he said
01:14:32
he said that if if taxes are someone's chief concern he said quote maybe we're not your state can you imagine that wow
01:14:38
and he almost lost the election because of that so i don't think all these big tax increases are what the country wants
01:14:45
and you know if biden insists on allowing bernie to dominate the agenda and warren
01:14:51
i think it's gonna you're gonna see 40 to 50 seat losses by the democrats in 2022
01:14:57
okay moving on to our final topic crazy update out of china a research team has developed a method of converting
01:15:06
carbon dioxide into starch science magazine published this paper from a research team 100 grams of
01:15:12
catalysts converting 5 grams of co2 per hour into starch and freeberg i'm sure you tweeted that
01:15:20
this is 10 times more efficient than corn plants uh what's the impact of something like this could it hit scale
01:15:27
would it have an impact on food security carbon global warming yeah so i tweeted this
01:15:35
paper app because it's just it's a fantastic demonstration of what's possible in this new emerging not
01:15:42
emerging it's been around for a long time but kind of you know in the state of art in um in biomanufacturing
01:15:48
you know photosynthesis is the system by which most starch is produced on planet
01:15:53
earth today that is plants convert sunlight and use water and carbon dioxide to make
01:15:59
uh starches and starches um and sugars which are what carbohydrates are account for 60
01:16:06
of human calories and we get all those calories from rice wheat potatoes which you know are grown on about 60 of our
01:16:12
acres uh that we farm on planet earth so you know in in plants there's a series of these chemical reactions and
01:16:18
what these guys did is they um isolated and created a couple of specific proteins
01:16:26
um which are a class of proteins called enzymes and what an enzyme is is it's a protein that can take different
01:16:32
molecules and combine them and re enforce them to react and make something new and they identified a couple of
01:16:38
enzymes and engineered a few enzymes and put them together in a cell-free system
01:16:42
meaning there's no cells involved it's just a tank with a bunch of fluids in it and and they stick in some carbon
01:16:49
dioxide that they can suck in from the atmosphere and they um they can and they have to drive it with
01:16:54
some hydrogen gas which we can just get from water and the system basically converts that
01:17:00
carbon dioxide into starch which is uh being done at a rate that's almost 10 times higher than what we see
01:17:06
with with corn plants so it's it's an incredible demonstration there's there's several steps to this system like six
01:17:13
steps and i did some back of the envelope math and my back of the envelope math on what
01:17:17
they've demonstrated and by the way everything they did is publicly available for reproducibility so people
01:17:23
are going to try and resource open source so people going to try and copy this now but my back of the
01:17:27
envelope math is um you know this system can produce about 10 grams of starch per liter per day
01:17:36
which would mean it would take about 2.7 trillion liters to suck up all of the carbon dioxide
01:17:43
that all of humans are putting in the atmosphere every year from all of industry that would require
01:17:48
um about 27 million tanks that are about 40 feet tall and about 8 feet wide that whole all of those tanks could fit
01:17:55
in an area about 25 by 25 miles you could attach one nuclear reactor to it to suck up the uh
01:18:02
the water and convert it into hydrogen gas and feed the system and those tanks 25 miles by 25 miles would take out all
01:18:10
of the carbon dioxide on planet earth and convert it into usable starch and that starts by the way that system could
01:18:16
be tuned not just to make starch for consumption it could be used to make biofuels it could be used to make
01:18:22
bioplastics it could be used to make anything that's hydrocarbon-based um and so you can kind of think about
01:18:27
this being the entry point to a series of production systems that we could use to make stuff why freeberg why did they
01:18:34
open-source it so they're a research team of scientists from china and they've been iterating on
01:18:39
this this process this isn't the only process right and so what they're showing is that this is
01:18:46
possible and what i think we will see is a lot of people rattling their brains now saying
01:18:51
not only do we use proteins and enzymes that we find in nature but we're going to start to engineer our own proteins
01:18:57
and our own enzymes that are even more efficient than what we see in nature and that's what's starting to happen this
01:19:02
system alone what i just described this 25 mile by 25 mile system which is tiny is the equivalent of starch production
01:19:09
from 42 u.s corn belts if you took all the corn growing in the united states it's 42 times that um is what it would
01:19:16
produce that's my back of the envelope map of kind of what these guys did um and so i think what they're showing
01:19:21
is this is what's incredibly yeah yeah and and the implications we could go in 100 directions and we could talk for an
01:19:26
hour about what this means and what you could do with it but i think it it really
01:19:31
catalyzes this point that that that we're kind of everyone's always like how are we going to get all this carbon out
01:19:36
of the atmosphere what are we going to do with this where there's a will there's a way the science is here today
01:19:42
27 million tanks made out of plastic you could probably get that stuff produced you know a couple billion dollars find a
01:19:47
piece of land that's 25 by 25 miles it's near some water and put a nuclear power
01:19:51
plant there and you could suck up all the co2 in the atmosphere anybody want to take anyone would want to take a
01:19:56
guess of how many people on the team were in advanced math courses the funny thing about this that i think
01:20:02
is really interesting is that it came at the same week where we were ending you know what was this political theater of
01:20:08
cop 26. you know greta thundberg uh who's you know how dare you how dare you she had this very funny comment which is
01:20:19
like uh you know it was a bunch of corporate nonsense and the same old blah blah blah what's your description of cop
01:20:25
26. you know we had this great trickle of like you know agreements there was like on monday there was an
01:20:31
agreement to stop deforestation uh and then you realized it's a non-binding agreement and you're
01:20:37
like oh okay well i guess we're not gonna stop deforesting we're just gonna keep you know doing that
01:20:43
and all of this stuff just kind of like took a lot of my enthusiasm um and i was a little despondent about
01:20:50
what was going on and then when i saw this thing i was i was really quite impressed
01:20:54
i will say that there's a very tricky thing happening right now which is that developing
01:20:59
countries basically said listen if you want us to go after climate change um we want 1.3 trillion dollars in here
01:21:06
to support us and so you know the western world will have to figure out whether we're willing
01:21:11
to pay you know what is the equivalent of you know six or seven percent of us gdp to a
01:21:15
whole bunch of other countries every year for them to slow down and if we don't make these payments to india and china
01:21:22
and a bunch of other developing nations they they have said we're just going to continue to do what we're going at
01:21:27
here's an idea take half of that money and put it towards science yeah take half that money and go build a plant
01:21:32
that uses this system that was just demonstrated and put it in south texas and suck up ocean water and convert that
01:21:38
ocean water into hydrogen gas by the way ocean water can be turned into hydrogen gas by running electricity
01:21:44
through it so you're putting a nuclear power plant to make the electricity you run it through ocean water you create
01:21:48
hydrogen gas you pump it into these friggin tanks and it sucks up all the co2 and it makes stuff that humans can
01:21:53
consume and that we can use and suddenly you have this abundance of material you
01:21:57
have this abundance of food and you can turn this in jobs and you can turn this into a lot of different things
01:22:03
and you know this kind of goes to the point i've been making for a while if we want to invest in infrastructure this is
01:22:08
the sort of thing that both solves climate change creates jobs and has extraordinary economic return potential
01:22:15
built into it so how do you get politicians re-elected you know i think the private market may
01:22:21
come after this stuff i'll be honest i'm you know i'm like i'm talking to people
01:22:24
looking at this being like why don't we make a plant that we can make biofuels and bioplastics and food and other stuff
01:22:28
out of this this technique and there's going to be other iterations of this technique
01:22:32
um but it's such a no-brainer cost like a functional prototype of this like a small prototype nothing right i
01:22:39
mean couple million bucks yeah like nothing so um you know the other thing that happened
01:22:43
this week beyond this request for 1.3 trillion dollars is that you know we're now seriously considering carbon tariffs
01:22:49
and we talked about this on a pod before but you know i've said i think this is the
01:22:54
most disruptive thing in the capital markets and and geopolitics that can happen in the next 10 or 20 years is an
01:22:59
effective carbon tariff which is to say that when a good or service enters the borders of a country
01:23:05
they will levy some tax that they think represents its drag on the environment and so you know the simple example would
01:23:14
be a car you know you make a car you make a tesla in texas but the minute it crosses the
01:23:21
border to canada canada says well here's the true carbon intensity of this car all of the energy
01:23:27
that you put into the aluminum to the batteries you know to the to the buildings where
01:23:33
the engineers sat that were that were building fsd and uh you know i'm gonna charge an
01:23:37
eight thousand dollar tax on this car or iphones coming out of china yeah that's happening i think that's coming
01:23:44
so i think that you know the combination of tariffs and these transfer payments is going to create a real economic
01:23:50
incentive for folks to make these kinds of big technological leaps so i'm pretty
01:23:55
bullish on all of that i'm less bullish on politicians ability to organize because
01:24:00
unfortunately again this is the first time i really paid attention to cop and it just looked like a bunch of
01:24:05
really you know useless political theater it's just a lot of political theater saks does this uh science conversation
01:24:12
about saving the planet do anything for you would you like to get back i mean i think it's the way to solve the problem
01:24:16
is you have to figure out new technologies to actually take carbon out of the atmosphere because you're not
01:24:21
going to do it through you know these political programs i mean you know china india paying them
01:24:29
and and other developing nations 1.3 trillion a year i mean foreign aid already is one of the least popular
01:24:35
parts of of the uh government's budget you're going to now pay 1.3 trillion to these countries so that they it's
01:24:42
nonsense and you're gonna pay put that money into our education system nobody's creating science and technology that
01:24:47
solves the problem nobody's gonna stand for that yeah and you know the the the tactical education system right pour it
01:24:53
in yeah i don't think there's a political solution to this problem that's gonna be
01:24:57
palatable to people i think it's gonna have to be solved through new technology now let me ask you a question freeburg
01:25:03
you said there's a six step process given your experience building science and technology products is it possible
01:25:10
for each of those six steps to get but 20 percent more efficient a year yeah look i mean um i just say that to
01:25:17
describe that there's a series of steps in the system it you know um but uh at the end of the day this is a
01:25:23
demonstration of science that has been you know probably funded to some small amount but you know if you
01:25:29
start to iterate on this approach and think big picture and think infrastructure solution here uh there's
01:25:35
a lot of room for improvement i'm sure so in other words you're back of the envelope 25 by 25 mile if this is
01:25:40
getting 50 more efficient 25 more efficient year over year we could see it becoming you know uh twice as efficient
01:25:48
every two to three years and your 25 mile might be a five mile radius city i mean think about going to mars right
01:25:54
what are we going to do in mars we're not going to grow friggin fields of corn and grow cows and stuff right you're
01:25:59
going to need a system that literally takes the molecules that are in the atmosphere there uses some electricity
01:26:04
that's probably going to be produced by a nuclear power plant and convert those molecules into what you want to make and
01:26:09
consume and that's what we can do on earth today the systems are going to get better they're going to get cheaper
01:26:14
they're going to get faster and that's why i'm highly optimistic about solutions to climate change in the
01:26:19
century it's not about an if it's about a when and you know the when is going to
01:26:24
be defined by the willpower of how we are going to allocate our people and our capital resources to solve these
01:26:29
problems and then your term we have the tools to do it i love the fact that we're sort of hitting this fork in the
01:26:34
road where it's like do we just want to give the money to a bunch of governments
01:26:38
to pretend they're going to solve this and grifters or do we want to put it into science technology
01:26:43
innovation and entrepreneurial entrepreneurship that execute execute right yeah let's give it to politicians who
01:26:54
don't know what the [ __ ] they're doing i mean it really is like when you know i
01:26:57
don't know if you saw elon say like yeah if you want to solve world hunger can you make us can you oh my god
01:27:02
let's talk about that that's just so beautiful i thought that was like the greatest that's dunk of the week nothing
01:27:07
nothing gets me up in the morning like funding shenanigans right go ahead jake out tell the stories i mean just
01:27:12
somebody was like oh elon you know made more money tesla stocks no not an article it was an article that was
01:27:17
written sure and then he's like well if you want to solve world hunger i'm willing to sell sheriff jason can you
01:27:22
describe it you're doing such a shitty job today as a moderator what are you talking about
01:27:26
all i did was put a sis in your hands you guys dunked everything but dude yeah uh hey guys and there was an
01:27:35
article there was an article that was written that basically said you know um you know 6.8 billion dollars uh which is
01:27:46
you know what elon made like in a day or something could cure world hunger and then the head of the you know uh un
01:27:55
world food program retweeted that again trying to further dunk on elon and then um
01:28:03
elon responded well if you can just show me a plan and just please reply online here on twitter
01:28:08
and it's credible and detailed i'll just sell this talk and i'll give it to you and uh everybody was like oh my god
01:28:15
there was this oh my god moment like wow can this really happen ending world hunger sounds like a beautiful idea it
01:28:22
can only only cost you know 6.8 billion dollars and obviously it went nowhere because the
01:28:26
guy didn't have a plan and it was just a complete joke but that's what happened yeah and he's like yeah just put all of
01:28:33
your uh put all of your expenses out there show us your plan and it was like oh crickets
01:28:41
nothing all right everybody on behalf of the dictator chamoth paulie hoppetea the
01:28:46
queen of quinoa the sultan of science david friedberg and for the rain man himself reporting from
01:28:54
definitely reporting from yeah he's reporting from the new york stock exchange congratulations again my bestie
01:29:00
david sacks on the triumphant ipl of bird we'll see you all next time on the allman podcast bye bye
01:29:17
and they've just gone crazy with it oh we should all just get a room and just have one big huge orgy because they're
01:29:41
all just useless it's like this like sexual tension that they just need to release
01:29:49
your feet we need to get back