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Maria Karina Machado, welcome to the all-in interview and thank you for being here with me today and congratulations
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on winning the Nobel Peace Prize two weeks ago. Thank you very much, David. It's my pleasure.
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Today, you are in hiding. In October of 2023, you won the presidential primary election in Venezuela. Last March, you were disqualified from running in the
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general election. You appointed ultimately a surrogate Edmundo Gonzalez. After the vote for the general election for the presidency, your party presented evidence that claimed that you had won
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69 12% of the votes while Maduro through the National Electoral Council declared
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that he was the winner with 51% of the votes. This is the recap of a very long story of the Maduro regime and prior to that the Chavez regime and its effect on
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the people of Venezuela which you have tried to bring to light on the global stage. I was hoping to frame up the
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story for our audience who may not know the history of Venezuela very well by talking a little bit about the
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background of the country and how your childhood and your youth brought you to the stage that you're on today and just to provide a little bit of background and forgive me for my lengthy introduction but I think it's important
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for folks to understand that the discovery of oil in Venezuela in 1914 began an economic
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boom that really kicked off in 1922. Today, Venezuela has proven oil reserves of 300 billion barrels, the number one
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proven oil reserve in the world. Saudi Arabia is number two at 266 billion and the US is at 48 billion. Over the decades that followed the discovery of oil in Venezuela, there was initially an
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improvement in the economy through the investment by the seven sisters which are a group of seven oil companies and
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ultimately there was a transition in the country to nationalize oil production and that led to I think the story that
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brings us here today. So Maria Karina again thank you for being here. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about
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your youth. Well, first of all, I have to thank you because this is a unique decisive moment
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in Venezuela. We've been under this tyranny that has turned into a real criminal structure for 26 years that
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have turned, you know, what used to be one of the freest and richest countries in the Americas into one of the poorest
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and with a third of our population forced to flee. So imagine what a tragedy it shows that you know you can
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have huge unique natural endowments but if but that's not uh wealth you need talent you need institutions and you need freedom in order to turn that in
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the well-being of your people I I was born in an incredible family I I I thank the Lord because um we have a huge family like Latin American family like
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to be you together hanging around all the time. My father was an incredible industrial uh entrepreneur. He he is perhaps the smartest and most
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generous and honest individuals I've met in my life. And and he taught us the responsibility that comes with with that with your family values and the opportunity life gives you. And uh
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that's why we I only imagined my life in Venezuela and in freedom and and and we
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grew with that sense of responsibility. And uh but to be honest, I'm part of a generation that, you know, look politics with, you know, rejection or even
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contempt. I I said I would do anything in my life but politics. and um and and and and you know thought we thought that we had inherited democracy forever. We
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took it for granted and uh when Chavez arrived our lives were you know turned over and we realized that we we need to exercise citizenship if we wanted to
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live with freedom and that's how it all started. I never thought I would be sitting here with you talking about
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politics or democracy. I never thought I would be sitting on a podcast, but uh you know, life takes us
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down strange paths. What were the conditions in the country when Chavez came to power? What sort of life were you living? What were you seeing in the country that enabled Chavez to come to
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power? And what did he promise the people? Look, we had a period of of uh democracy that that brought Venezuela huge opportunities, you know, that uh
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widespread education and health. Unfortunately, uh we stopped short of a a real free economy. But um the state control not
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only of institutions but as you mentioned when the oil companies were you know owned turned into the
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government statized and and terrible incentives started being created and uh more and more people felt excluded from that you know wealth that the society
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Venezuelan society was getting or the country was getting because it was all in hands of the state. So we've never
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known but the state control economy. We've never always known or never seen anything but that kind of socialist uh procedures in place. When Travis
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arrived, we had gone through a political, you know, crisis and and and there were
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growing tensions and and, you know, planes are corruption in the political system, the party system. And also the price of oil had, you know, declined. It
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was around $8 a barrel. So he came with a populist uh narrative offering, you know, everyone to be equal and and to revenge against all those
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that were guilty of of poverty in the the country. And and you know, he aligned with actors such as Fidel Castro in Cuba and other international
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interests to grab, you know, those huge resources Venezuela has. and of course in a you know super strategic geographic position. So that's how he got there and
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that populist system turned into a democratic and then into criminal structure and this was 1999 that he came to power. Yes, that was in 1999 and at the time I think when he took
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office oil was at around $14 per barrel and a few years later oil spiked up to $100 per even. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Just to contextualize all of this, prior to his
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coming to power, the oil companies had been nationalized. So to your point, the government was really the economy and he
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promised this sort of equality and redistribution of value for all of the people of Venezuela. Is that what he promised? And the economy was really depressed because of the oil price being
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down. Yeah. and that he would take, you know, uh, resources from the rich, the companies, and he would distribute in in in poor quarters and and in in in in the
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most vulnerable uh parts of the of society. And at the end, we we learned the hard way that effectively this kind of socialist approach does get everyone
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equal in absolute mystery because there's nothing for free in life. I mean you you give away your choices, your decisions. It's supposedly to receive
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what actually what you are you are getting is into a slave uh situation in which the state you know decides for you and and only if you behave accordingly
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you will get what they had offered. So that's what we're seeing right now. Imagine this David the country that has
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the largest oil reserves in the world. I've been walking around those areas where that oil is actually beneath the ground and you see children eating from garbage.
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So, it's unbelievable. And I think to your point, and I was going to bring this up later, but there's such a powerful
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lesson to be learned for the West, for America, for Europe. Socialism is slavery. And I think the story that you bring to the world is one of slavery
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driven by this kind of socialist tyranny. There is no socialism without tyranny. But I just want to walk through that a little bit because as Chavez came to power, oil went up to $100 a barrel.
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Suddenly Venezuela's oil reserves made the country very wealthy. And he then engaged in a series of what some people
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have described to me as pro diplomacy where he gave away 300,000 barrels of oil per day to the Cubans at a 50% price discount in order to
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make the Cubans a surrogate in order to make other island nations in the Caribbean in the African island states
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surrogates. And that's how Venezuela expressed their political influence around the world was through the power
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of the oil reserves but in such a way that it excluded the people from participation. It seemed to be very centralized to the government. Maybe you could share a little bit about how folks
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in the government in the military under Chavez lived these incredible lives with
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wealth and luxury while the people were impoverished. Any anecdotes you could share on that? Yeah, sure. Look, this is
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a this is this is a side that's being the, you know, tried in Venezuela and elsewhere. You get into power through
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elections and then from within you start undermining every single democratic institution. You go against the media, you control the media and it's and and you can see this pattern in Venezuela.
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about how Chavez started, you know, pressing or or buying space and publicity and then buying the whole media outlets and through censorship and
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and through and changing the laws in order for to be very very risky to speak out and and then it went also with the private sector in every single area of
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production and of course it took the military as well. I mean all those that were the most competent uh individuals
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that were put aside and only those that were absolutely loyal to the regime were offended. So this is and you destroy
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married merit at and and so that anybody uh realizes that if you want to be part
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of of the system, if you want to work for the state or or the academy or in the military, it has nothing to do with
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your competence or knowledge or talent, but you have to be absolutely loyal and and lower your head to the regime. and and and this progressively imagine all
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the resources that were coming in because you you said something very important that some people do not realize. I mean the the the the barrel
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of oil was around 10 or eight when Chavis arrived. It went up to $150 a barrel. Imagine the amount of resources. It was all the money in the world that they used effectively to buy
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loyal and and and to lobby around the world and to support ideological uh groups all over all over the the the western hemisphere and elsewhere. So and
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and these groups and these let's say these terms um get get in contact with each other. They exchange technology, they exchange information, they support
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each other in international forms. And that's why you know they get so powerful in their different uh areas and and and countries. On the other hand, what we
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had seen is that democracies and democratic movements in our in our side of the world are very isolated. We we don't help each other. We don't support each other as we should. I I think this
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is one of the great lessons that we've we've learned in these 20 years regarding the the the amount of
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resources. Look, there are estimates that the the the the the tag that the how Venezuela was robbed is over $2 trillion.
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Imagine what we're talking about in this 26 years. And uh and this was all either
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went for corruption as I said or for this kind of obscene uh fortunes this very few individuals have while 86% of our population nowadays lives in in
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poverty. The pensions in Venezuela are less than $1 a month. David $1 a month. Yeah. And so under Chavez, there was also this embracing or tieup
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with the drug trade, the FARC, Elnia. What is the alignment? What was the reason that the Chavez regime and now the Maduro regime aligns with the drug
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cartels given the oil wealth, given the international diplomatic ties because of
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the oil trade? Why is there also a drug tie up and what is the motivation and the incentive and drive there?
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Well, that that the Brock business isn't that new. Actually, it started before Charles arrived and many individuals in
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the military had had ties to them. But they realized it could be even much more uh uh the margins are even larger than than in oil and the greed in these
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individuals in this criminal structure is unlimited. It's infinite. So they not only went into drugs uh drug
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trafficking, they went into gold smuggling, arms smuggling, even human trafficking. I mean every single criminal network in the world has has
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you know converged into Venezuela that has been turned into a safe heaven for for the enemies of of of the West and
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and the enemies of the United States. Imagine I mean Karakas is three hours away from Miami. So having, you know, a
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satellite of Russia, of Iran operating in the heart of the Americas, it's it's something that, you know, this these regimes around the world had always dreamed of. Um even terrorist groups
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such as Hezbollah, Hamas uh to which Chavez and Maduro had given uh thousands of Venezuelan identities and passports to travel around freely around the world.
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So under Chavez, the GDP declined 70%. There was mass starvation, highest crime rates in the world, 90% poverty rate. Much of the stories and and anecdotes that you've shared have been reported
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publicly by international organizations. You are 32 years old when Chavez comes to power. 3 years later, you start a civil organization called
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Sumate. What were you doing when Chavez came to power professionally and what motivated you to get involved in the
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civic engagement that carried you forward to today? Well, I had been working in in the
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private uh auto parks and steel industry following my father's steps and um and also I was involved in a in um in an NGO that took over a children shelter for
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abandoned and abused children and and and you know I as I say I'd never thought I would get involved into politics but once this you know this individual arrives and it's evident for
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us that he was promoting the division of our country to create tensions to to divide even families even
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my own family. Uh the degree of of hatred of violence in in his speech the way he he wanted to um to create tensions among religions,
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races. It it we realized that that was going to turn hard to our country and a group of
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friends engineers decided that we will work to to gather petitions for a recall referendum. We thought this was going to be like a super easy task to get you know 6 million uh petitions in a few
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weeks and and and you know we we learned the hard way. It was it would required a
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totally new uh kind of citizen organization. Uh and that's how subat means join up. Uh finally was managed to gather the the
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petitions in just one day. People millions of people came out and signed these petitions. It's a long story.
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Chavez eventually uh committed fraud in in the referendum and and stayed in power and and got even more and more autotocratic as the years passed by.
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So were you doing Sumate full-time? Did that become your life's work at that point? And then how did you make the
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decision to run for the National Assembly which was in 2011? Fast forward 9 years after founding Sumate.
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Sumate was like an awakening for me and for many Venezuelans. We we realized that we could not rely our citizenship in political parties and that you cannot
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be complaining about politics if you are not willing to do your part. And that's why you know it came a day when I say
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look you know I I I know how politics are doing how it works. I don't like it. So I cannot complain if I'm not willing to take my own steps. So I I took this fellowship to to to a program in of
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leadership at Yale University and and it you know it was like seeing my life from
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above and I made that huge decision that I was going you know go for it. I was I
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was going to run for Congress. I had no political party. I had no experience. You know, everything was against me. Everybody told me, "You are crazy. You're never gonna win. You are never
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gonna get support. Nobody's going to support someone, you know, whose family has resources, who's a woman. You are
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divorced. You are not a socialist. I mean, I have every single condition to fail." And uh I I I decided you know I
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I felt it was my responsibility. I could not you know get a afraid of and and and I had to trust my own you know feeling and it was
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impressive. you know, volunteers started, you know, contacting me and in a matter of months with no money whatsoever, no organization, no media,
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nothing uh I won I won the primaries and then I for the for the national uh uh um assembly. That was in 2010
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and and then I won the the election with the highest number of votes in in Venezuelan Congress history.
00:20:03
Amazing. How much of a role did the internet play? I worked at Google a long time ago and we always had this
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conversation that the internet is going to create a democratization of information that you no longer had centralized control of information
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through media and in the case of Venezuela media that is effectively controlled by a government that wants to
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stay in power. Did the internet play a role in giving you the ability to reach people around the country in 2010 to be
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able to get elected? Absolutely. And not only that in 2010 I wouldn't have won if it wasn't for the internet right I mean no media outlet would dare to
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interview me and it was a way in which we could organize because we have no resources. Uh but further ahead, let me
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tell you, I know how there are so many concerns about the use of technology by by by the by bad guys and and and by by the regimes that are autocratic and
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Venezuela is, you know, a textbook case of how you get infiltrated, persecuted, manipulation and so on. But if it wasn't for technology, we wouldn't be here at
00:21:15
the threshold of freedom. And and this is something that we need to really highlight David. So you are like all great revolutionary
00:21:26
leaders speaking truth to power. You have a seat at the table now. You're in the National Assembly. And then in March
00:21:33
of 2014, you address the Organization of American States about Venezuela's human rights. And then a few days later you
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were expelled from the assembly and then there was all this legal stuff that happened which we don't need to get into. But can you just frame up what
00:21:47
happened in that moment kind of what your narrative is on the transition where they said you can no longer be a
00:21:54
representative here anymore? Well, I had had a previous experience just one year before
00:22:01
because we went for a presidential election and we won against Maduro when Chavez died and they they committed fraud and we weren't able to prove it
00:22:11
that that we have won. And that was in in in in April 2013 and and I went back to the National Assembly. I stood up and I said, "Baduro is not the legitimate president. We won." And suddenly I hear
00:22:27
someone calling my name. I turn around and there was this member of the parliament of the terrorista regime that
00:22:35
hit me on in the face and she broke my nose in five pieces and uh and and and we were locked in in Congress. I were thrown to the floor. I was kicked by
00:22:49
this and Cave was watching everything. He was the president of of the National Assembly. So this was, you know, an an
00:22:56
evidence that violence had gotten out of control. Imagine if you can do that in a in a t TV. It was seen on TV uh
00:23:05
throughout the the country and the world while they were shouting us. So next year we started peaceful protest and and um the regime ordered young people that
00:23:19
were in the streets, you know, just with with with with plaques to be shot at. Uh
00:23:25
so I went to the OAS, organization of American States, and it was the first time Vaduro was accused of human rights
00:23:32
violations internationally. As soon as I came back, they they they you know just
00:23:38
ejected me from the National Assembly and by force prohibited me from going back into my seat.
00:23:45
So um it was a very hard moment but at the same time it was a great opportunity because I realized that I needed to reach out personally
00:23:58
to to our country and create a totally new organization that promoted uh our ideas and prepared for the next stage of of the struggle and this was in 2014. Can you share
00:24:13
about the Maduro transition? Maduro is on paper seemingly wouldn't have been the natural successor to Chavez. He started out as a bus driver and then he was a union leader. It's unclear from
00:24:24
the outside what makes Maduro the the selected successor to Chavez. What is it about him as a man, as a person, his character that made him the successor to the Chavez regime?
00:24:36
Well, Maduro was trained in Cuba. So, it was the Cubans who chose Maduro. It was a a very easy option for them. totally
00:24:45
loyal to the communist uh pastoral regime and um Budo has no no you know no nothing restricts him from exercising you know violence and and and
00:25:01
and force for his uh ideas and he certainly doesn't have chavis charisma uh nor not nor not the the degree of control in in the other groups
00:25:13
so they were creating you know, like a group of of of of uh individuals that that the control of the of of the the system, the strategy, the the structure
00:25:25
that control the military, the financial enablers, uh the uh criminal networks and the political sectors. And that's how he he went over taking more and more control and turning Venezuela, as I
00:25:37
mentioned before, into this safe heaven of criminal activities. and he himself turned into the head of these structures when we heard about the deawa now about
00:25:49
the cartel loles the cartel of the sons I mean these are structures that we have denounced for years and we have tried
00:25:56
the word to understand that this was not a conventional dictatorship anymore this is a you know a very complex structure that that you know produces
00:26:09
obscene amounts of resources uh not only for them but also for very dangerous allies that come from very far such as the ones I mentioned before and terrorist groups and so on. They you
00:26:22
know they turned Venezuela into one of of the Russians main buyers of of uh army and and and weapons and uh also one
00:26:34
of the the I would say the the major stronghold of the Iranian regime abroad. I mean they use Venezuelan financial system to bypass financial sector,
00:26:46
financial sanctions and and they use our territory to to operate freely. And what about China? Can you share a little bit about China's relationship
00:26:57
with Venezuelan leadership in Maduro and when that became an more kind of intimate economic tie? Well, Venezuela turned out to be uh China's main uh um
00:27:11
debtor with over 60 60 billion uh dollars in in depths that uh you know accounted for all kinds of different
00:27:23
projects that were never built and uh and and certainly China realized that Venezuela's you know natural endowments are unique absolutely unique it strategical. Um, nonetheless, uh, the
00:27:38
the degree of corruption in the system and in this system is so so big that China stopped funding Maduro about seven years ago and simply is getting, you
00:27:48
know, the oil to to pay for the debts that are still um pending. Um, I I I believe China, you know, understands the the the
00:28:02
strategic importance Venezuela has also for its geographic location. Um, but but
00:28:09
has been more prudent because of the degree of of corruption that they have suffered from for Maduro and and the
00:28:16
regime. But there's al also the side of the if you know the intelligence uh espionage uh and technology and satellites from China that have been installed in
00:28:29
Venezuela. That's a very important dimension for them as well. Venezuela is a country of I think 28
00:28:36
million people. By some estimates 8 million people have fled the country. Does that feel accurate to you? Can you
00:28:43
provide some anecdotes of why people leave, where they go, and what it's like in the country that's causing this mass
00:28:50
exodus of the population? Look, we are the nation of little over 30 million. I mean, this is a country where you have no information whatsoever. Imagine living in a country
00:29:02
where you know how many you are. You don't know what's the the size of your debt or your GDP or or inflation.
00:29:10
Nothing. It's a black box. you know that's that's that's why it's also a challenge in terms of what's coming up
00:29:16
but um roughly 9 million people have left it is you know around 30% of our population imagine if a 30% of American people leave what it would
00:29:30
mean no it's devastating because we're seeing you know our young people our children doctors engineers scientists nurses teachers
00:29:41
And of course they go because the situation from an economic perspective is is horrible but mostly because you
00:29:49
don't see a future in your country because you feel there's no possibility to survive. So women that have left their young children back only to send
00:30:02
something for them to eat. Children that have left their parents alone. I I've met so many so many
00:30:10
grandparents that have not met their grandchildren yet and and they cry and hug me and ask me please please bring my
00:30:18
grandchildren back and we all know that the only possibility for that to happen is that we you know have a transition to
00:30:25
democracy and when that happens David you will see the day Maduro goes hundreds of thousands of Venezuelans voluntarily coming back even though they
00:30:37
know it's a hard moment that we'll have you know to work really hard but we we know the potential that unique potential and and you know they want to be part of
00:30:50
this it's much more than a political struggle for us it's an existential struggle as a nation and also spiritual struggle as well a lot of people will say why don't they
00:31:02
go on the streets today can you talk a little bit about the intimid imidation of the Maduro regime and why it's so difficult for people to rise up in the
00:31:12
way that we have seen other revolutions historically around the world. What keeps that from happening? What are the
00:31:18
mechanisms that are used to stay in power uh by the Maduro regime? Look, and and we have seen that in
00:31:24
Venezuela many times as well. I mean, we're talking about thousands of times in protests, in peaceful, you know,
00:31:32
rallies, in people going out by by tens of thousand and even hundreds of thousands. But the regime has developed, this regime, Maduro, with the Cuban intelligence mechanisms to infiltrate
00:31:46
and anyone who goes out is either detained, harmed, killed, disappeared. When we won the election last year in July 28, thousands of people went to the
00:31:58
streets while we were counting the votes, which I want to tell you a little bit more ahead. And you know in a matter
00:32:05
of 24 hours 2500 people were in prison including young people, children, women that were even sexually assaulted, abused just
00:32:18
because they had gone out to the streets to peacefully claim for their right for
00:32:25
popular subject sovereignty to be respected. But they went beyond that, David. They went to the houses of our of
00:32:33
our of our activists that had been taking care of the election that that work as witnesses that take took care of
00:32:41
the town sheets and and and they took them away. And if they weren't there, then they would grab their families, their mothers, their children, their
00:32:52
their couples, and uh and and every single person who even posted my picture on their on their, you know, Instagram account for X account, whatever, they would go and take them as well. Uh so it
00:33:08
was so brutal uh that the interamerican commission of of human rights label it as state terrorism and the factf finding mission
00:33:19
of the United Nation uh has said those are crimes against humanity. It was so wide so systematic that what they wanted is to terrify
00:33:31
a society. So, we've had these last 15 months, a period of of darkness as we've never seen before. I I was accused of terrorism, but it is
00:33:45
searching for me. He said I would spend the rest of my life in prison. Some people think it
00:33:52
would be even worse. Um but you know all my team which you know managed the campaign this incredible campaign that took place are either in prison
00:34:06
or they had to leave the country. So this is a moment in which you know fear uh has been you know imposed by by brutal force but that doesn't mean
00:34:20
that Van society is neutralized on the country as we managed to organize for an incredible epic episode when we won the election. Now we have been organizing
00:34:33
underground and preparing for the day in which trans democracy will come and people will make sure it is an orderly process. Maduro has publicly said many times that
00:34:49
you are a puppet of the west that the US and its allies are trying to interfere in Venezuelan politics because of their
00:34:55
economic interest in the Venezuelan oil reserves. I want to give you a moment to respond to those claims. I think you've
00:35:03
done an amazing job highlighting your motivation and the on the ground experience, but um can we counter or
00:35:10
have a conversation about this belief which by the way many have made because of the US involvement in Middle East and
00:35:16
Middle East politics and the US's absence of involvement in politics in countries that are not oil rich. Maybe
00:35:23
we could talk a little bit about the the importance of this for the West. not just the economic interest but you know what else is motivating this and why is the US interested in supporting your
00:35:34
cause that claim is not very original I mean that's what all of these guys say to
00:35:40
anyone that speaks out if even if it's you know a a a union leader student or a priest and frankly you know I couldn't care less what they say you know we know what
00:35:55
we are what we believe and what the people and why people trust us. We have managed to build the strongest citizen movement in our country's history.
00:36:08
Starting on 2023 when Venezuela looked hopeless and divided and without a chance to move ahead, we reached out to every single I went to every single
00:36:21
corner of my country. Look, I went with my car because I've been banned from living Venezuela for over 12 years. I'm
00:36:28
not even allowed to buy a a local flight ticket. So they thought they were hurting me, but actually they they gave
00:36:35
me that biggest opportunity to to to you know go through my country from one point to the other and to talk to people to listen to learn to understand to get
00:36:48
really close in terms of what we are in what we believe to turn down those barriers the regime had built to divide us and to find out that this is not about left or right or poor, black or
00:37:02
white. It is about human dignity. It's about respect, solidarity, cooperation, freedom, and love and love, which is the strongest force that has brought us
00:37:15
together. You know, I've seen people that were close to the Chadista for years coming to me, crying, hugging me,
00:37:23
asking for forgiveness, and I said, "No, I have nothing to forgive." You know, we
00:37:28
have a common goal now. We have a common vision. We all want our kids back all. And that's precisely what's happening right now.
00:37:39
So, look, Venezuela is for me the country with the largest opportunities not only for the United States and the rest of the West. I mean, imagine, and
00:37:51
I'm not talking about our natural endowments, which are huge. We'll already address that. or infrastructure
00:37:56
or even our geographical position. It's our people what we have endured and the way we have come together. And I've heard recently some people talking about that you know once Madura goes out
00:38:08
because it will leave soon you know there's this risk of of you know um civil war or unrest. Give me a break. We're talking about a country where 90%
00:38:21
of the population we all want the same. There are no religious differences. There are no racial tensions, no social
00:38:29
or political differences. We all want the same. And we have fought so hard for freedom that we are the ones who are guaranteed that this will be an orderly transition. And yes, we are close to the
00:38:42
United States values and culture. Yes, we are. We admire a nation that has strong democratic institutions that feel proud for for their achievements, their
00:38:54
history, their legacy and so are we. So look, you know those kind of of socialist rhetoric nowadays is useless in Venezuela. You
00:39:09
know, we have only known socialism and Venezuela today is a country I believe that you know most people embrace open markets, respect for private property,
00:39:22
merit and collaboration. I want to just talk about the election and then I'd like to ask your view on
00:39:28
the United States today. But let's talk about the election. Two years ago you ran for president. You won the primary
00:39:36
with a resounding victory in October 26, 2023. Today, you're sitting in a basement. You're not in the office of
00:39:43
the president. Can we walk through what happened? What was that campaign like? How did you reach the people given that
00:39:49
you didn't have access to the state media and then maybe share a little bit about that primary victory and what
00:39:54
happened afterwards? Yeah, you know, we realized as I said in in January 2023 that we need needed to get, you know, trust back, you know, Venezuelan people,
00:40:08
trust ourselves and trust each other and and the primary had this incredible opportunity of giving power to the people and not the political parties that used to decide, you know, which the
00:40:22
candidates were. So we decided to push for a primary and a primary in which the regime would not get involved. Uh in in Venezuela in previous primaries process
00:40:35
the the the regime electoral uh or uh entity would organize primaries and we said this time no way we're going to do it organized by citizens. It was a huge
00:40:48
challenge and a great risk and we believe the regime totally underestimated us. They thought that perhaps, you know, 100 200,000 people
00:41:00
might appear and vote and so on and and that's why they they let it go, let it run. And when October 22nd, you know, it's two years ago exactly, they came, I
00:41:13
was a candidate, there were 10 candidates, and I thought, well, it's a miracle that that it's just this is
00:41:19
happening as we as as as we're seeing it. At mid morning around 10 or 11 in the morning, I start getting calls from all around the country saying, "We run out
00:41:30
of ballots." I said, "What do you mean? I mean, it's only 3 hours of of the process. What do you mean we run out of
00:41:37
ballots?" So many people showed up. Over 3 million Venezuelans. And it was such a
00:41:44
courageous act, David, because going out meant that you were voting for the opposition. No. So this was huge. I'm
00:41:53
talking about remote towns that we need to have river boats in order to get the results and and also Venezuelans around the world because I
00:42:04
insisted and many of us that Venezuelans abroad our diaspora shouldn't be allowed to vote. So that day our country came
00:42:12
together. I I I I am humbled. I am grateful. I I got 92% of the votes and and Maduro realized that, you know, they they
00:42:25
wouldn't be able to stop me. So, they they banned me from participating. Confess to you that it was one of those really tough days in your life because
00:42:36
it was so unfair. I mean, I had a mandate, but you know, I could have blown everything, but I decided, no, we have to keep on going, and we're gonna have find someone that is willing to
00:42:48
take my place. And once again, the regime underestimated us because they accepted a 74 year old diplomat that
00:42:57
nobody knew who he was. A super honest, loyal, intelligent, good person, but no one knew who he was. This is Edmundo Gonzalez. Edmundo. Exactly. Edmundo Gonzale
00:43:11
elect. And uh I had a poster with his face. So I went all over the country telling if you want to vote for me, you have to vote for him. And this is the guy. And uh at the same time, remember
00:43:26
we had had over 30 elections that progressively were more and more and more and more fraudulent. I mean, sorry.
00:43:33
Ed Mundo Gonzalez, he became your candidate in July of 2024, last summer, just to be clear, right?
00:43:39
In um in in May, May, the elections were in July. Yeah. Okay. Elections were in July. So, imagine at this time, I mean, nobody knew who the candidate was
00:43:51
and we everybody knew we were facing the most fraudulent system in the world. I mean the concept of of fraud collections that are been spreading around the world, it was born here in Venezuela
00:44:05
with the electronic machines and all the the stuff they've been creating around it. Fear, manipulation, altering their
00:44:14
register and so on. So we realized that we needed to use technology in our favor
00:44:21
and that's why we managed to create a legion of volunteers. We trained them without the regime noticing that we were training them.
00:44:34
There were 5,000 uh sessions in person and over 300,000 people trained by the internet. We develop apps for for seller
00:44:47
phones in which you know we will monitor every single polling station around the
00:44:53
the country. We How many people did you recruit to this legion for the ballot monitoring?
00:45:00
It ended up being more than 1 million volunteers. Everyone with a specific task. David, we had no money. We could not print flyers or posters. You know
00:45:14
how much was our uh publicity budget? Zero. We didn't pay for one ad. Nothing. When we went around the countries and we stayed in hotels,
00:45:31
the regime would come the next day and close a hotel. If we went and stopped in the street to
00:45:37
to buy some food, then they will punish the the the restaurant or or the snack place. I mean, they they blocked streets. They they got our people in in
00:45:49
prison, persecuted those that were in control of the electoral and and organization departments. I mean, this was huge. But they turned this into an epic
00:46:01
and and citizens decided that it was going to be their own epic, their own victory. So we train all these people with our diaspora. We we we had this app
00:46:15
uh designed and we knew and this is a very important part that we had to prove our victory for the first time. We needed to prove
00:46:29
the results. So we designed a a system through which we would collect the original poly sheets. We would scan them
00:46:41
and we will publish them in a digitized web page super robust for the whole world to see. And in order to do this, imagine we are in a country where 60% of our territory
00:46:54
doesn't have access to the internet or even cellular phones. So we needed to geotoptimize, you know, process h centers to process the the physical sheets and we did that.
00:47:09
We smuggled Starlink and uh antennas into the country, generators, laptops, cell phones, and without origin noticing it, we we we installed these
00:47:24
130 operational places. And in less than 24 hours we were able to prove our victory with the you know the images original images of the talifits being
00:47:37
seen and scrutinized by the whole world. They were audited by over 20 different independent technicians and universities and they all concluded that those were the real
00:47:50
results. So to be honest, I think we do have set a new standard for electoral electoral integrity, not only in dictatorships, even in even for democracies.
00:48:02
And the the data that you shared showed that you won a resounding victory. Your party won the the presidency and Maduro declared himself the winner.
00:48:13
Since then, he's issued a warrant for your arrest. What is next for you? What is next for the country? Look, it's been such a long way. I mean,
00:48:25
it's have so many colleagues and friends that are currently in jail that are very far away or even killed. I mean, this has been very painful, but at
00:48:40
the same time, we have grown so much. I mean, we're a different society, but also we're different and better individuals. We've learned the value of living in
00:48:53
democracy and being free. And uh now we've come such a long way. We defeated Maduro in the hearts and minds of the Venezuelan people. We defeated Maduro in the ballot boxes. We
00:49:08
defeated Maduro in the spirit of Venezuela. And now the only thing he's got left is his, you know, violence. and a few uh top brass individuals and
00:49:20
financial enablers that have terrified those uh in the military that still are you know supporting him. But you know these last 15 months of resilience and
00:49:32
resistance have created more and more pressure from within and now finally we're seeing a reaction from abroad. For years, we have asked the world to
00:49:44
understand that this is a criminal structure. And as such, in order to to break it down, you need to cut the inflows of criminal money that comes from drug trafficking, from gold
00:49:55
smuggling, for human trafficking, or or the black market of oil. You need to cut those inflows. And that's precisely what
00:50:02
President Trump is doing right now. and and and we are very grateful to see this
00:50:08
uh international coalition that is applying you know the law the enforcement of the law on this criminal
00:50:15
structure which is what we need. I mean Badudo for so so this long years have felt uh that he could you know disappear, kill, torture people with absolute zero zero cost. the timing of
00:50:30
impunity has ended and um and and you know I I believe the regime is its weakest position ever. They understand this is serious. there is a you know a real threat and we are seeing defections
00:50:45
uh betrayals and more and more people from within the regime reaching to us and what we're saying is look we had offer a possibility of a negotiated
00:50:56
transition and now that that day is closed we offer you know everybody that decide to step on the side of the law that they can be part of this huge
00:51:08
transformation of Venezuela. Can you highlight the moments of the American presidencies, the American administrations, Obama, Biden, Donald Trump, and how they
00:51:22
have supported the cause and what's different today? Do have to say that, you know, we've had
00:51:29
bipartisan support and you see that in Congress even yesterday, you know, and and and because they're, you know,
00:51:36
sensible individuals in the Senate, in the House that understand that it's, you know, it's for humanitarian reasons because of its millions of lives at risk in Minnesota,
00:51:48
but it's also for the national security of the United States. I think that's, you know, it's pretty well proven at this point. Um, but so far, um, there
00:52:01
were only words, only statements and no actions. And and when you face a criminal regime, I you have to
00:52:08
understand that you know the way to reach peace is through freedom and freedom requires strength and that is
00:52:14
moral strength, spiritual strength and physical strength and and that's what finally the regime is facing at this point. So you know we're very we are very very grateful to President Trump
00:52:27
and his administration for you know the visionary and decisive way he has act calling things by their names. It
00:52:33
requires courage. Not a lot of people were willing to do that before. So now look, we are prepared for an orderly transition. We know what
00:52:46
we need to do in the first 100 hours, 100 days to take control of the institutions and our territory. Um, Venezuela has been destroyed in
00:52:59
every possible way you see it in our economy, in our security, in our national sovereignty, in in in you know in the public services, basic services that people require. But our people are
00:53:14
tougher and stronger than ever and we are determined to be free. So, this is going to be like it's going to be a rebirth. We're going to turn Venezuela from the criminal hub of the Americas
00:53:30
into the energy hub, the technology hub and the democracy hub of the Americas. And and it we will need to do that from from from scratch, from ruins. But uh
00:53:44
but you know we have our huge incredible diaspora that are willing to come back and imagine you know with all the
00:53:51
resources we have you know the energy that the capacity to to produce energy not only natural gas and hydroele electricity solar and so on you know we
00:54:01
can we're going to be so attractive for uh uh for those who want to invest as I said not only in energy but in technology AI data centers. I mean, we have everything
00:54:17
to turn Venezuela into a bright and and proud nation very fast. And before we wrap, Maria Karina, I'd love to just ask you an important question, which is we are seeing a rise
00:54:29
of interest in socialism that's unprecedented in the history of the United States, largely fueled by what
00:54:36
some would argue is a a challenging income growth situation, student loan debt. I mean, it's a very different situation than Venezuela, but many middle class American children are
00:54:48
finding themselves unable to progress like every generation before them. in US history. They cannot seem to create a
00:54:55
better lives for themselves than their parents. And as a result, we are seeing in cities
00:55:00
like New York, Zoran Mdani being the favorite to become mayor and presidential candidates being discussed that maybe also have a socialist agenda and socialist interest. I want to give
00:55:12
you an opportunity to speak to the youth of America about the lessons learned with what Venezuela has gone through with its socialist cycle here and maybe
00:55:23
something that you could share that could help them think a little bit more differently about the choices ahead for
00:55:29
the American democracy. Yes. Um, we went through the same experience, you know, 26 years ago. People would warn us and say, you know,
00:55:41
watch out what socialism and communism could bring to you. And we would always answer, Venezuela is not Cuba. That's not going to happen to us. And at the end, look what, you know, the disaster
00:55:53
devastation. We had, you know, 9 million of our people spread around the world. and and the fact is that you can only live in peace and prosperity if you have
00:56:04
freedom and and democracy. That's our lesson. And and those who offer to give you for free what you need to get on your own with hard work at the end end
00:56:16
up you know charging you with the the most valuable asset you could have which is your freedom your capacity to decide and to make your own decisions and um
00:56:30
that's that's a great lesson I mean when you have the state on top of you h that means whole society will probably be we
00:56:38
equal in misery and poverty. So I do trust the the American institutions and the American spirit and American dream. And I think these temptations come
00:56:52
uh many times and they they are good because they make societies reflect on what they have and understand that previous freedom and democracy ought to
00:57:04
be defended, taken care of every single day of your life. when you lose it, it's very hard
00:57:11
to get it back. And and that's a lesson we're going to give to our children and our grandchildren. And I I believe uh
00:57:20
the American people values what they have. And I hope that you know having so many informed people around you can also get you an idea of of of of the threats
00:57:32
and dangers of these systems. Maria Karina, courage is speaking truth to power. I cannot think of a more powerful regime to speak truth to and I
00:57:45
thank you for your courage, for your leadership. Congratulations on winning the Nobel Peace Prize and thank you for joining me here today.
00:57:52
Thank you. It was a pleasure and I look forward to hosting you in a free Venezuela where you will see, you know,
00:57:58
great investment, great prosperity and also peace and freedom from Venezuela to the rest of the region. Thank you so much, David. Thank you.
00:58:09
[Music] I'm going all in.