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hold on guys I gotta get into founder mode oh wow founder mode if he founder modes I'm I'm Inna founder mode I got a
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Founder mode too where's J oh let's go freeberg let's get this smarted baby come on podcast number one
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podcast in the world here we go okay okay guys let's start the show you are a Founder moting Jacob if you founder mode
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anymore you're going to get pneumonia all right sax is like the '90s again back at
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Stampers this is the funniest cold open we've ever done oh my God I got Belgian waffle mix everywhere you got it's right
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here Jak you got a bunch of founder mode right there I got a little founder mode
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there thanks for looking out let your winners [Music] ride David and instead we open source it to
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the fans and they've just gone crazy with love you founder mode baby let's go all right
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everybody welcome back to the number one podcast in the world with me again the chairman dictator Troth poopaa how you
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doing buddy have you acclimated now you're 15 days back on American soil how are you how you
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adjusting uh I'm doing well I uh turned 48 two days ago oh I know the big 50th it's coming I've already called dibs on
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chering your 50th so so we will uh be certainly getting arrested in 24 months save up your bell money boys fredberg
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you look like you have had a record number of panic attacks in the last 48 hours how is Summit planning going are
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you okay buddy you took this responsibility on are you okay I'm hanging in there I'm just waiting for
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the shoe to drop J Cal on what you're gonna do to blow up but I think we're almost there so we're super
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excited um we have uh speaker names going out today so talk a little bit about who the speakers are you guys know
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your bestie Elon will be there oh third year in a row okay third year in a row he's the only uh repeat this year we've
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got Mark Benny off joining us oh okay for a conversation about the future of Enterprise we've got Barry Weiss from
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the Free Press we've got Arizona senator Kirsten Cinema we have John Mir shimer and Jeffrey saaks to talk about
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geopolitics with David saaks saxs on Sachs ncash aora what about Peter my guy I Haven
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interview Peter in a decade he's amazing we've got the legend the legend from La
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Michael loitz joining us love that we're gonna get into some really cool uh Tech
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we have have you guys have you guys read Michael litz's book oh it's yeah it's incredible it's really incredible it's a
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great book man Michael's incredible it's a great book what a Playbook it's a really interesting mix we've also got
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some cool panels on Tech and Robotics so we're doing all three of The Big E companies Joby Archer and whisk and
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their CEOs are going to be there uh gecko robotics so we've got Jake coming from gecko to actually do a really cool
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product demo we have the CEO of weo uh Teedra maakana joining us uh talk about autonomous driving Juan Carlos bonti
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talking about age reversal uh from altto Labs probably the most funded private company in history
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and also uh ingo's coming out from Europe uh from ad Yen CEO uh of aen you guys may not know this but Ingo has
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never done a US conference before so this is his first public speaking event at a US conference he may be the first I
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mean Aden I think is the first and really only company that's implemented AI in production at scale it'll be
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really interesting to understand where that's gone in the last year great topic to talk about and huge shout out to my
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boy Woody hoberg us astronaut joining us to tell us about his months uh aboard the ISS his experience is he gonna talk
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about his experience at Uranus hey and captaining the uh the crew Dragon capsule back to Earth from Uranus and
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the future of space flight and Uranus yes thank you to Uranus thank you everyone anyway I love how he's like my
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guy the astronaut as if like freeberg and an astronaut have the same life experience you know you know what you
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know what happened J it's like me and my guy Draymond did I tell you you know how
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I met Woody he's a huge fan of the Pod and then he NASA astronauts which I follow on Twitter dm'd me and they're
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like Woody would like to meet and I'm like what and then I get this message from Woody I'm like is this real he's
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like I'm on the ISS I listen to the Pod every week I love the show and you guys you know keep me entertained up here in
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space and I'm like no way so then he's like can you do a zoom and I'm like sure so we hop on zoom and I you guys saw
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this thing I put it out on uh on Twitter or something but I did the zoom with Woody got to know him hang hung out with
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him since he's been back great guy so you left out the number one one host on the internet and broadcast uh or
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news on YouTube Megan Kelly will be joining Megan Kelly the phenomenal Megan kelly didn't she call you a prick Jal
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did she call me a prick why she be any different yeah oh I can't wait for this fire what
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do T beautiful intelligent women call historically what do they call you they call you is that your mom they don't
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exactly they're like out of the way where's J they're like can you park my car their keys and then really excited
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to have Thomas lefant come and give us a state of the union on public market and
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private Market Tech investing he's got a really interesting presentation he's going to share so a lot of the content
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from the summit we're gonna be push of co-founder of CO2 oh sorry co-founder of CO2 Y and so a lot of the content we're
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gon to be pushing out on YouTube uh as quickly as we can obviously some of the more timely newsly stuff will get out
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first and then as we did in the last two years material will roll roll out in the
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days and weeks that follow we do not do sponsors here on the Allin podcast but the Allin Summit does have sponsors so a
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huge shout out which we would never otherwise do Partners to uh Excel events hexclad merch.com athletic Brewing the
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ridge the greatest Law Firm on Earth kolie velocity black and our big enterprise software partnership sponsor
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Google Cloud big shout out and big thanks to Google Cloud for stepping it up in a big way they have an incredible
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set of AI tools that they're making available to startups startup Founders that are attending the summit get
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350,000 bucks in Google Cloud credits wait what yeah each each startup founder each startup yeah so pretty I would I
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would have send all my companies to exactly you pay 7500 for a ticket you get 350 in credit sh 350 Grand of credit
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that's incredible for Google Cloud it is up to 350 and Google Cloud credits for eligible AI startups which they can use
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over two years um comes with a bunch of other benefits so it's pretty awesome really glad they're doing this and
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they're going to have a set most lukewarm ad read I've ever heard do you want me to do that for you and get
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people can you guys Theo on it how about you guys the on this go and Google cloud
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is giving an amazing offer to everybody who comes to the summit wait till you hear the sacks
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$350,000 for AI startups uh credit and that that's real money that you would have spent otherwise so a great from our
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friends at Google Cloud wait 350,000 just for startups whose Founders come to our Summit yes yeah for AI startup
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Founders uh they can sign up for Google Cloud they get 350,000 credits that they
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can use in over two years total across all the founders who are per business no no per business per business oh my gosh
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yeah so if you're spending 10K a month I have seven friends and family tickets left I'm starting seven companies in the
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next half hour they're all going to the summit I'm going to clear $2.3 million of credits and I'm going to sell them on
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eBay for 500k you can't do that get in terms thank you to our friends at Google we did get a funny note from jcal this
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morning asking if his remaining friends in family tickets could be sold off so he could grift himself some money off of
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our fre like hey what could these go for on I'm just thinking if it's sold out these aren't worth 7500 each what's it
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worth if you can't get in yeah I'm sure you'd find that out pretty quickly yeah yeah I mean who's gonna stop me
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um the corner trying to scalp the remaining tickets I I know give them to my brother Josh if you want to get into
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the for 10K cash will be at the load we're to see a couple of Cal's Brothers on the
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sidewalk outside the conference holding a sign you know tickets available ticket
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one down of the Mongolian barbecue joint West listen if you uh if you have ever been to Madison Square Garden you just
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hold up the number one and somebody will come talk to you somebody will come talk
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to you all right we've gotten through all the great housekeeping and it's time to talk about founder mode
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founder mode on Sunday the Y combinator founder Paul Graham published an essay titled founder mode it was based on a
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talk that Airbnb CEO Brian chesky gave to a group of YC Founders last week where he said hey the advice I got on
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running a large company uh was to hire good people and give them room to do their jobs he says he took that advice
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and the results were a disaster so he studied how Steve Jobs ran after and according to PG Paul gram that is a
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bunch of very successful Founders in the audience kind of nodded their head and said hey that is uh similar to my
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experience PG uh defines the world now in two ways two philosophies for running a company manager mode versus founder
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mode in manager mode that's just the conventional way of doing this what you teach in business school you hire good
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people you give them room to do their jobs they tell your direct reports what to do they figure it out you don't
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micromanage uh peaches says it doesn't give too many specifics about founder mod he kind of says hey we got to figure
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out what this thing is so in some ways this blog post jth was a way of starting the conversation but he said things like
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less delegation and more Hands-On and uh if you haven't heard of it skip level meetings this is where the CEO will meet
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not with their manager or direct report but maybe a group of people who report into that manager without the manager in
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the room it's a notable and well-known management technique need to kind of get information to the CEO a little bit
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faster and um what do you think CH chamus got a lot of attention on a Sunday did you have any takeaways from
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it I was confused when I read it because everybody was breathlessly panting about how incredibly insightful
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it was and when I read it my first thought was where's the second half that actually explains what this is so that
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you can have an opinion and then the next thing I thought was I don't really understand what any of this is all about
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and I tweeted this in a quarter Century now in Silicon Valley I think I've encountered two different kinds of
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people one are the groups of people that can go right to the heart of issues because they can break things down and
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look at it from first principles and just ruthlessly attack what's not working with absolutely no Nostalgia for
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people or sunk cost or Tech debt and then there's everybody else and I think that that is an archetype that actually
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drives successful companies it's not the case that those are only exhibited in Founders I think it's a psychological
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makeup of a person and the people that have it tend to build good companies you know will have such a person for example
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at the all in Summit if you look at what Nikes Aurora was able to do at Paulo Alto networks it's it's incredible I
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mean in 8 years he's created 80 billion of value how do you do that I think it's
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important to understand how that happens if you look at a whole bunch of other people that are managers shant
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narian how has he built Adobe saan Adella how did he build Microsoft these are all just like a
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handful of examples of people that have just tacked on collectively trillions of
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dollars of market cap way more than all founders added together in most companies but for one two so I think the
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takeaway is instead of looking for some label I think you're going to have to do
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the really hard work if you want a successful business which is when things are working have the courage to change
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the few things that still need changing and when things are not working break it
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down to the studs and most people don't have the courage to go through the glass
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eating that is required to get to the other side of that process sa did you read the piece
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um you clearly saw all the uh memes and you know I guess kudos for the piece on X uh
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this past weekend what are your thoughts on it generally speaking anything that you took from it that was notable or is
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this just some obvious stuff yeah I mean my reaction to it was that this is hardly new I mean I remember way back in
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the PayPal days over 20 years ago we had a rule that we weren't wouldn't hire mbas we had a no MBA hiring rule
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and the reason was because we figured out pretty early on that NBAs were bringing more of attritional management
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toolkit that seemed less applicable at a startup subsequent to that obviously Elon has taken a very Hands-On Approach
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at his companies that Walter Isaacson described in his book as demon mode and so that's been described Ben harest did
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a very interesting series of blog posts about management and addressed the topic
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of my mom management years ago and so he's written extensively about it and put a lot of substance behind it Ben
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Drew attention to a book by Andy Grove that came out 40 years ago called high output management that also addressed
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this problem in significant detail and this to boil it down into a nutshell for you the way that Grove
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defines this problem is he says that the output of a manager is the output of that person's team and whether that
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manager is the CEO or a team lead or a VP or what have you the way you again measure their output is just to look at
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the output of their team so therefore you ask what's going to maximize the output of that that team or
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that org and you know obviously if the CEO tries to do everything and make every decision probably that's not going
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to result in the maximum output conversely if you delegate everything I call it the problem of infinite deleg
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ation where CEO delegates to VP VP delegates to director director delegates to manager manager uh delegates it to
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the summer intern yeah you know and then all the most important work in the company gets delegated all the way down
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to the newest most inexperienced people that's not going to work either yeah so again you're going to have to find the
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right balance and again the way that you figure out what the balance is is to apply gross principle of maximizing the
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output of the team or the organization and we've seen in some of the big comp sacks that they've cut out middle
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management because so much of the work was just being playing telephone and handing it to the next person that when
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you took out that swap of people at Facebook or Google or Microsoft right the company seemed to work better
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because you're taking out a layer of overpaid took out a huge amount of middle management and it and it didn't
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seem to harm the performance performance got better and again you can apply gross
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principle look at what happens to the aggregate output so this topic has been addressed at length and I think has been
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understood for for decades maybe the only new thing here is a little bit of branding around founder mode versus
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manager mode the the problem with that branding is I think it's an overly simplistic and mannequin view of the
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world where it kind of fits into really all of the the PG essays and and the YC model which is Founders always right
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and everybody else in the ecosystem especially traditional managers they're they're either Liars or fakers and that
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basically has been the mannequin model that Paul gron pumping out for decades and is there something wrong with that
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model you're you're kind of looking at it I'm kind of hearing a little bit of a tone there maybe I'm reading into it
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that that doesn't match reality well sure I mean look the the whole ecosystem in Silicon Valley exists to help make
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founder successful I mean I was a Founder myself now I'm a investor there's also Talent who don't found
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companies themselves want to join them the whole thing is organized to make Founders successful and the whole idea
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that people are out to get the founder I mean this is a really Antiquated idea there was some truth to it in the
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1990s uh by 2002 or 2003 when Peter teal created Founders fund he called it that
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to emphasize that you know Founders should be in charge I'd say by the mid to late 2000s no one really disagreed
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with that anymore yeah so this whole idea that like people are out to get Founders rather than make them
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successful is Antiquated by at least 15 years I would say kind of why Comin A's marketing wouldn't you say is like to
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kind of put themselves next to the founder and say hey we're the only ones who really care about Founders everybody
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else is out to get them kind of yeah I mean look there was some truth to it you know i' would say in the 1990s there was
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a prevailing view in Silicon Valley 30 years ago that once the company got to a certain level of size you hire a
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professional manager subsequent to that people figured out that the best performing companies are indeed the
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founder Le companies the ones that keep the founder engaged for a long period of
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time they tend to build the most value everybody understands that everyone wants the founder to be successful the
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question is how do you make this founder successful and I think there is a perverse Dynamic where if you teach the
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founder that hey you're always right and everybody else is a liar and a faker then that can create a a distortion
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effect where Founders don't feel the need to level up we all want the founder to level up I mean I would always rather
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invest in the founder who has Vision over some professional manager right you want the Visionary to succeed but you
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need them to level up and learn you know just basic management over time and if you're teaching them that hey founder is
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always right there's less incentive to do that I think it's a wonderful rack test for basic intelligence I mean if
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you just read something and all of a sudden like that's my problem it's probably not your
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problem and so it's a great way to actually weed out the people that were just meant to fail anyways and just
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needed an a way to externalize their frustration and have an excuse I have never seen a person build a successful
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company unless they understood intimately the core amount of value that their company created and knew how to
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balance getting into the weeds with scaling through other people I've never seen a good example of of a great CEO
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that didn't do that well yeah everyone has to figure this out and there is no word salad that explains this it's
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incredibly unique to every single company and so there is no Panacea here yeah I mean sometimes the Founder's job
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is to get in the weeds of something that's broken in a company and get down in micro manag other times you want to
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step back and let the sales team cook because they're crushing it I would say it's their job to have the Strategic
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wherewithal to understand what it takes to win and then win at all costs that's their job and if you cannot win and then
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you externalize your inability to win to an essay or something else you're probably going to fail in your company
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is probably going to fail freeberg you're back in the founder seat after a uh brief sojourn as an investor any of
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this ring true to you or obvious did you read the essay any thoughts on it the reaction to
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it I mentioned this when we had our conversation in 2020 around governance and why governments seemed to not be
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able to synthesize different data to make decisions they were being told what to do by their subordinates the
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difference for me is leading versus managing that a traditional manager and I've seen this at a lot of companies I
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even saw this a lot at Monsanto the manager says to the people that report to them what do you guys going to do and
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then the the people they go down to the people that report to them and they say what what are you guys going to do and
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so you end up net net developing this kind of Bottoms Up model for the organization which is effectively
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driven with a diffusion of responsibility and as a result a lack of vision the leader says here's what we
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are going to do and here is how we are going to do it and then they can allocate responsibility for each of the
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pieces necessary and the leader that's most successful is the one that can synthesize the input from the
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subordinates and take that synthesis to come up with a decision or a new Direction rather than be told what's the
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answer by the subordinates so leaders I think fundamentally are able to number one understand the different points of
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view of the people that report to them number two set a direction or set a vision really clearly say this is where
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we are going and then number three figure out how to allocate responsibility to the people that report
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to them to achieve that OB itive whereas a manager is typically being told what's
00:22:02
going to happen in the organization like a giant Ouija board with 10,000 employees hands on the writing thing
00:22:07
that go around and try and write the sentences and ultimately you just get a bunch of goop as companies scale and
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they bring in these quote professional managers they're typically kind of looking down and saying hey what are we
00:22:17
going to do what's going to happen next and they're not actually setting a direction whereas someone who's a
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Founder typically feels the authority to be able to set the direction but to chat's point SAA Adela Sundar
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nikesh Tim you can kind of Tim Cook a great example there are some really great leaders that have run
00:22:37
organizations that are already scaled and then taken them to an order of magnitude or two orders of magnitude
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Beyond where they were when they step in so I don't think that there's necessarily A founder and they each did
00:22:49
it uniquely I don't think there's a single way in which any one of those companies has run that necessarily you
00:22:54
could have cut and pasted it to the other companies and have it worked so it requires a smart individual who
00:23:01
understands their company and their human capital intimately well and their business model by the way what's
00:23:08
important about what you just said chth is that that is effectively I think the definition of
00:23:14
like being a successful founder understanding from first principles so these are leaders that can think from
00:23:19
first principles not necessarily from comparables most managers are taught in business school here's how a business is
00:23:26
run here's how this person did it here's how this company did it and then they go
00:23:29
and they try and cookie cut or repeat that that doesn't really work because every business if it's going to be
00:23:34
successful it has to be unique and so the ability to actually think uniquely and identify from first principles the
00:23:40
means necessary to achieve the mission of the organization I think is a critical critical leadership uh
00:23:47
trait that yeah that leader can come from a founder or not but this ability to kind of yeah ignore convention ignore
00:23:53
comparables and think for yourself I don't see most Founders starting a business because they've done some first
00:24:00
principles analysis I see most Founders starting companies because they see a gap that they're pretty sure exists but
00:24:08
I think the biggest thing that Founders have is this intersection of fearlessness and
00:24:15
naivity and so they if they knew too much they would never do it that I don't think necessarily means that the entire
00:24:22
set of all of those people are actually great first principles thinkers the first principles is required after
00:24:28
product Market fit what's required before product Market fit is risk-taking curiosity Relentless iteration and those
00:24:36
are a very different set of characteristics is it true that subf Founders can then change their toolkit
00:24:42
absolutely but is it true that quote unquote because you have a title you have those things absolutely not
00:24:48
otherwise we would have a much higher success rate in Silicon Valley than we do there is a reason why 95% of these
00:24:54
companies go to zero it's because the ability to do the first is rare and then the ability to transition is even more
00:25:01
rare well building a unique business and I think if you look at Airbnb and I'll give Brian chesky incredible credit for
00:25:08
this you look at Uber you look at how Steve Jobs built Apple what every one of these businesses have in common is that
00:25:15
they were all built in a unique way and I think that's what makes great businesses is that they identify their
00:25:20
own path their own unique path for how to operate a business to scale to achieve the mission of the organization
00:25:27
and I think that that's what's typically lacking and trained managers who use comparables and biases from their prior
00:25:32
experience and what they've been trained and taught to use as a cookie cutter type model which doesn't create unique
00:25:38
value it makes your business look like the other and ultimately it commoditized some aspect of the business to the point
00:25:43
that the value of the business goes down but to build something unique where you're constantly finding the unique
00:25:48
path that gives you an advantage is what all of these companies have in common whether that unique path was made by an
00:25:55
experienced hired person or a firsttime founder this ability to kind of build a unique competency that I think makes
00:26:01
them all distinct as a group I think that's a really good point like if you look at some technology businesses they
00:26:06
start off looking like technology businesses and what they really are are Tech enabled consumer businesses other
00:26:13
businesses are pure technology companies and why that distinction is important in
00:26:18
this context is that there are certain kinds of challenges you have in the former that you just don't have in the
00:26:23
ladder and vice versa so if you're a Google or a Facebook and you run into some problem
00:26:29
typically the solution is you can engineer around it because ultimately your product is free and there's a
00:26:34
different way to scale and grow and create feature value because those are also incrementally free if you look at a
00:26:40
company like Airbnb and if you look at the last six months in the stock what is it telling you it's telling you that the
00:26:47
people that own it have realized that it's less of a technology business and it's more of a
00:26:53
cyclical business that es and flows with the ability to spend money on behalf of
00:26:58
the consumer so now all of a sudden you're put into a different bucket and you grow as people's belief es and flows
00:27:06
about the amount of spending that consumers have that is independent of your product quality and what that means
00:27:12
is that there's no amount of investment in technology that you can really make to change that people need to have
00:27:19
excess capital in order to spend on vacations and then you can capture your fair share of that but if we're in a
00:27:25
recession that company will be under pressure in a way that has nothing to do with the internal product quality that
00:27:31
they exhibit so these are just dimensionality it's just different kinds of problems that every single company
00:27:37
faces that are totally unique to its own circumstances so if you are trying to point to some label as the reason why
00:27:46
your company is failing I would just encourage you to not do that jcal you've you've interviewed thousands of Founders
00:27:52
CEOs you've seen successful unsuccessful do you have a point of view on whether this concept applies and what if you
00:27:59
have a general kind of theistic for the difference between success and not success it's very different in the the
00:28:07
place where Paul Graham and I invest year zero year one of a company and chafu alluded to this in that time
00:28:14
period going from zero to one from no customers to One customer it's about you know really having a team of Builders
00:28:21
people who can actually build a product and have what's called Product velocity in the industry the ability to iterate
00:28:26
and then how much time do they spend with with customers understanding what those customers problems are and so what
00:28:31
we'll see is when the professional managers try to do that they try to get a product to Market and Achieve what's
00:28:37
called Product Market fit and then eventually maybe get product or get Market pull as Andy rackliff defines it
00:28:44
which is the market is seeking your product out because of word of mouth and because they need it which Airbnb and
00:28:50
Uber would fall into now the difference between those two moments in time and who's good at it is is pretty different
00:28:56
to your point jamat so to be able to win both those bets is hard that's like a parlay in a way getting the product
00:29:04
Market fit requires this sort of relentlessness in Innovation and trying things if you have experience in that
00:29:11
vertical it works against you so we were looking at a company today in our in our
00:29:16
firm that has a really good idea and it's people who are from the industry but they have an okay idea it's people
00:29:23
from the industry but they can't get the product built because they're senior managers who have 20 years experience in
00:29:28
this particular vertical you would much rather see neopit come out the vertical so if you look at the companies
00:29:34
mentioned here Airbnb Uber and then SpaceX and Tesla you you just look at those four companies they had no
00:29:43
experience zero in space in travel in transportation Hospitality you know or any of the uh the success they had or
00:29:53
electric cars but to actually scale those companies that does require a lot of lot of expertise a lot of tactics and
00:30:00
you know people who can focus in a way on very narrow things and that sometimes Founders who are in that
00:30:08
first group they can't have that focus on but one tiny little thing they just get bored with it and so they have to
00:30:16
learn to have really great people recruit really great people and actually yes delegate to them to run a department
00:30:22
and say hey I we the goal of this organization and you saw this chamath when you were at Facebook I think you've
00:30:28
told me so many stories about you know you're focused on one thing the signup flow getting people to add that second
00:30:35
or third friend getting them to fill out their profile there were like key moments you determined with equal
00:30:41
success and then Zuckerberg yourself and those ear that early crew were able to obsess over those so maybe you could
00:30:47
talk about Zuckerberg's ride to to getting the first you know whatever 10 million
00:30:53
people on the product but then 10 million to a billion well I mean Zuck I think did an
00:30:57
incredible thing for me which is he let my team Cook I don't remember having skip level
00:31:03
meetings this that none of this other nonsense but at the same time what he did was he created air cover for us
00:31:09
because let's be honest I was an immature executive at the time so I was still learning how to be part of a
00:31:16
fabric of a group of people I did not know how to do that so I was a little bit of a lone wolf operator with my team
00:31:22
and I operated that way you know I would hey guys we get to 100 million people we're all going to Vegas and the rest of
00:31:28
the company would be upset and you know Mark and Cheryl's job would be to clean up the broken glass of everybody else
00:31:33
saying there's these halves and have knots at Facebook and in hindsight who cares because it all worked in the
00:31:39
moment I could see why everybody else was a little bit upset with that so they did a wonderful job of letting this
00:31:45
wonderful team of very curious iterators do their job and they basically got out
00:31:50
of the way and I think that that's a wonderful thing but is that repeatable not in any other company because that
00:31:56
context and timing and moment was very unique and again my approach to the job was unique not necessarily sustainable
00:32:05
not necessarily good nor bad different and we adapted to those boundary conditions to maximize how we could
00:32:11
deliver but it doesn't mean anything to any other company in my opinion yeah I think it's it's well said there's
00:32:19
another good book before we go on to our next subject Patrick lanon I'm sure some
00:32:24
of you have read the five dysfunctions of a team but he kind of got into early this sort of ability to be unliked
00:32:31
inside of a company and I just I think I high recommend the book because it really
00:32:37
talks about this sort of fear of conflict and avoidance of accountability and inattention to results which is kind
00:32:43
of the underpinnings of I think what Paul was getting to with founder mode okay great discussion everybody let's uh
00:32:52
speaking of founder mode I mean this story keeps coming back r and breslo is back in the news we
00:33:00
talked about this company before breslo is a founder of a company called bolt that's a payment startup and I have to
00:33:06
set the story up in in a couple of Acts here saak and I have been following it for a
00:33:11
while bolt was a payment startup they did one-click checkout products if you don't know the
00:33:17
oneclick Amazon had a patent for this for a while it came out of um it came out of patent protection everybody sort
00:33:24
of jumped on it they're shopay by Shopify you probably have experience you you buy something at one store and
00:33:30
then uh you log into another store with your phone number it has all your credentials you've been cookied and that
00:33:35
basically takes out the friction and allows you to make a purchase at another vendor without having to put in all your
00:33:41
credentials and credit card and everything so bolt makes that through an API for
00:33:48
different shops online they generated 27 million in revenue on a $300 million loss last year they get 2 to 3%
00:33:57
commission when they sell something anyway we talked about bolt back in January 2022 because they had raised at
00:34:03
an extraordinary valuation 355 million at an 11 billion valuation 366 times Revenue sacks I guess we
00:34:12
missed those then breslo made waves on Twitter by calling shrip and YC the mob bosses of Silicon Valley he alleged they
00:34:21
were kind of acting in cahoots to keep people from using bolt and claimed YC was skewering rankings on Hacker News
00:34:30
all this other stuff anyway it's been two and a half years since we talked about this craziness at bolt and breslo
00:34:38
stepped down as CEO after posting that thread he was accused of overstating Bolt's customers and Technical
00:34:43
capabilities to investors while raising money that got probed by the SEC they didn't take any action and then their
00:34:50
valuation was slashed 97% to 300 million earlier this year that's where uh the story had ended in until just last week
00:34:59
when an insane story came out that Bolt's interim CEO not brlo had emailed investors informing them out of the blue
00:35:07
that they were going to raise 450 million at a $14 billion valuation this came as a surprise to
00:35:15
investors they didn't know this was happening according to reports and that this deal would put breslo back in
00:35:20
charge as CEO it was confusing to all the investors and they've all started to lawyer up and try to figure this out
00:35:27
here what we know so far bolt is on Pace to generate 28 million in Revenue this year roughly the same as
00:35:33
2021 and so a 14 billion doll valuation would be 500 times Revenue jamath I'm not sure who would pay for that
00:35:43
deal but this deal is uh unique in that it's called pay to play if you don't know that term it basically means if
00:35:49
you're an existing investor if you don't invest in this round you're going to lose your existing shares or have them
00:35:55
diluted massively so so uh some Investment Bank out of the sells which is that tiny Island in
00:36:04
Africa that rich people go on vacation was supposed to put in 200 million that firm was called silverbear the other 250
00:36:11
million would come from a firm called the London firm in marketing capital and credits on a venture investing platform
00:36:18
so anyway there's a ton of carve outs here and other stuff I'm going to stop there at the notes and just
00:36:25
Sachs this is the craziest story sorry took so long to get here what what are your thoughts on what we're seeing here
00:36:31
in this drama and this Zer valuation yeah look uh Ryan has been right before he's been right in the past
00:36:39
but in this case it looks like he's clearly over his skis and if the reporting is correct it looks like he's
00:36:45
trying to drum up interest in a financing round by representing things that aren't true or haven't happened yet
00:36:52
saying that certain investors aren't bored and those investors are coming out and saying that they're not the question
00:36:59
I I think that's relevant and that relates back to our previous topic is this founder mode I mean what makes this
00:37:06
not founder mode and I think that this is where it'd be helpful to have a little bit more substance and not just
00:37:12
uh branding exercise let me give you a more mundane example I was in a board meeting the other day and I complimented
00:37:19
the team on how they had uh gotten their burndown substantially since the last word meeting and somebody joked one of
00:37:25
the founders said founder mode it was kind of a joke okay great but then it got me thinking what if in this board
00:37:30
meeting it had gone the opposite way and the founders had taken the position you
00:37:34
know what we're not going to try and cut burn we're going to put the pedal to the
00:37:38
metal and accelerate the business and spend a lot more because somehow it's going to get us to the next funing round
00:37:45
faster found a road to me find down that's found Mo baby let's go let's so so when you start branding these
00:37:56
Concepts without putting any substance behind them and quite frankly you've never been an operator yourself you've
00:38:03
never actually created a unicorn company but you're representing yourself as a unicorn Whisperer like you're a guru in
00:38:09
something you've never really done before then it just allows people who want to justify bad behavior to
00:38:16
basically get away with doing whatever they want and that's what you're seeing with founder mode now Jak the reason why
00:38:21
that joke is funny you're doing your Tony Montana bit is because you can justify any bad behavior as founder mod
00:38:27
yes and I think that's what all the memes are about right now is that founder mod become a joke because
00:38:34
there's no substance to it and allows you to justify anything a Founder wants to do and I think a more honest way to
00:38:40
approach this would be to Define here are the actual behaviors that make a Founder successful including when a
00:38:49
Founder is wrong how about slightly differently there are stupid outcomes and smart outcomes and there are all
00:38:56
kinds of different people that can get to stupid outcomes and smart outcomes and so you have to have the courage to
00:39:00
say that was stupid don't ever do that again and that was smart do more of that and if you can't distinguish the two or
00:39:06
you can't get to the ladder you're gonna fail instead of founder mode why don't we call it founder responsibility like
00:39:12
what other respons too I mean founder found Authority founder responsibility Steph Curry is not the founder of the
00:39:18
Warriors but he's the lynchpin okay my point is teams teams need winning players and then you need to put
00:39:25
together your own game plan for winning but the goal should be winning if you are not winning you are a loser and what
00:39:31
does winning have really talented really driven people in different positions who
00:39:36
understand their position are held accountable for La winning winning if you're not winning you're losing yeah to
00:39:43
be frank there's a certain kind of con man who represents themselves as a guru even
00:39:50
though they've never done the thing that they pretend to have done and yeah and in this case frankly you've got someone
00:39:57
promoting Concepts about operating when they've never done that before they never scaled a unicorn company yet
00:40:04
they're pretending to be a unicorn whisper who's telling Founders how to behave and the question you to ask is
00:40:09
this at the end of the day helpful or not I mean we all want to exalt and celebrate Founders I want to I want to
00:40:15
win exactly but we all want to win and you know James Madison said that you know men are not not Angels what do you
00:40:22
do about those cases rare I think they're pretty rare where the founder is just wrong about something where they're
00:40:28
like representing that investors are going to do something they're not going to do or Elizabeth Holmes represents
00:40:34
that she's got a product that she doesn't have or you have a Founder breaking a regulatory requirement that
00:40:39
actually is necessary that they comply with what do you do in all those cases you actually need to have some objective
00:40:46
standard of behavior that's not just oh Founders is always right traditional managers are always wrong because that's
00:40:54
just not nuanced enough to account for what it's actually gonna take to win well I mean if Adam Newman had listened
00:41:01
to a lot of the smart people he had hired at Wei work he might not have signed leases that were so high priced
00:41:08
and gotten away from the Playbook that worked when they started that business which was find the cheapest real estate
00:41:13
charge the highest price you can for it by making it you know a community and and really nice as opposed to hiring the
00:41:20
class A getting the class a space and then charging a b price to your point like a senior real estate executive
00:41:27
would have put together a forecast of cash flows yeah and it would have been a very boring meeting but if you didn't
00:41:34
have the intellectual wherewithal to realize that that was a critical meeting for a real estate business and then
00:41:39
listen to that and then manage your burn appropriately that was a huge mistake so again it just it always comes
00:41:46
down to can you take all the labels and all of the you know Naval gazing aside and can you make good smart decisions
00:41:55
when you're ask to run the play that's your job at every level of a company and a CEO that knows how to do that tends to
00:42:04
helm winning companies and I don't think that that is exhibited in whether you were employee zero or employee 20 it's
00:42:12
it's a intellectual and psychological archetype yeah I mean in my experience the founders that are highly successful
00:42:19
are the ones that that are Hands-On they've got a strong vision and they pursue it and they're constantly
00:42:24
learning and leveling up and they're going to learn wherever they can they're going to learn from other Founders
00:42:30
they're going to learn from Executives they may have hired who maybe do have more attritional background they're
00:42:35
going to figure out what works for them and they're going to discard the parts that don't work for them and they're
00:42:39
going to double down on the parts that do and the end result is going to be a style that works for them and there's
00:42:45
not a one-size fits-all to that as we've seen that's actually the most important
00:42:49
thing that that I've heard in this whole discussion that we don't talk enough about the people that win are deeply
00:42:55
intellectually promiscuous they're learning about many many things they're adapting things to their own Playbook
00:43:02
the next day they may throw that piece away and take something else because this is something they learned we use
00:43:07
the word reer write a lot right but it's this idea of constantly reer what the conditions on the field
00:43:13
are so you know what you need to do in that moment to maximize your chances of success have the perfect example of this
00:43:19
when I was running webblogs Inc we were going to raise a round of funding Mark cubin had given us the first 300 and
00:43:24
Mark andreon was going to give us 500k for our blogging company that didn't Gadget Etc and I had met Jeff
00:43:31
Bezos and I told him I'm in Seattle this week would love to catch up with you I wasn't in SE I said I was gonna be in
00:43:39
Seattle next week for the whole week would love to catch up with you I wasn't planning on being in Seattle I made that
00:43:43
story up just to make it convenient for him and uh he said sure come by on Tuesday or whatever I come by on Tuesday
00:43:49
I sit with Jeff Bezos as my partner Brian alv and the intellectual curiosity he took on taking a part in Gadget and
00:43:57
blogging as this new medium that was very disruptive at the time how do you pick the name of the blog tell me about
00:44:02
the CMS how what is the publishing strategy how do you hire people and I would say oh you know we hire people the
00:44:08
best people are the great commentator so we look at the great comments and then we hire them and then I watched in
00:44:14
Amazon they started hiring the people writing great reviews for their review team and I was like oh wow he he really
00:44:20
is taking notes on this and your point point saxs or maybe TR you made this point in terms of hiring one of the
00:44:27
great techniques Bezos had is uh a concept called bar raisers and a bar raiser in Amazon is somebody you hire
00:44:34
for your team who is so good that they raised the bar for the entire team so when they would say hey we're going to
00:44:41
add somebody to this team they're going to be the 10th person you'd say are they
00:44:45
better at whatever Dimensions than the rest of the team and will they raise the bar for everybody here and then you
00:44:51
think about some managers they hire somebody who fits in they hire somebody who doesn't rock the boat and there are
00:44:56
technique here in very specific ways to attract talent to your startup that will
00:45:01
become you know do you guys remember reason why YC and Founders fund and andreon took this path was to try to
00:45:10
Corner seoa because seoa had this reputation in the 90s and early 2000s as somebody that would boot the
00:45:19
founder but when you look at sequoia's Returns what their returns say is these guys are just winners they're consumate
00:45:26
incredible winners and So what seoa had the ability to do clearly looking backwards is figure out which companies
00:45:33
had people that were adapting themselves and scaling and people who were a little
00:45:38
bit in a culdesac and just needed to get replaced and again they were operating from a first principal's perspective in
00:45:45
my opinion and they were being pretty ruthless and acting with zero Nostalgia so again it's just a reminder
00:45:54
like there is no easy answer here it is so hard that is why 995 plus percent of our companies in our efforts end up with
00:46:03
nothing to show at the end of it freberg to bring you on this discussion there was a moment in time actually where this
00:46:10
actually crossed over and you got to witness it which was when Larry and Sergey were taking Google public and
00:46:16
before that they said you know I don't know if the markets will let these two phds as smart as they are as driven as
00:46:23
they are with such a great product I don't know if they're going to buy the stock can we get an ad adult in the room
00:46:27
who's done this before and they found Eric Schmidt who had run Noel and they brought him in as this you know third
00:46:34
part of the triangle and then eventually he wound up leaving Etc what were your thoughts on Silicon Valley in that
00:46:41
transition time and Eric Schmid roll at Google well Eric Schmid came into Google
00:46:45
through his relationship with John door and John door as a mentor delarian sergean
00:46:51
investor and Google had suggested that they bring in a professional manager that can help them successfully scale
00:46:58
the business and John had this relationship with Eric and Larry and Sergey started to socialize with Eric
00:47:05
and it was a very long process and they ultimately respected Eric because of his
00:47:10
technical capabilities and Technical background which was quite distinct from the other candidates that they had met
00:47:15
during this process but it was necessary they were first time they never worked anywhere they had never had a job they
00:47:22
had never had experience I think similarly Cheryl Sandberg as a partner to Zach ultimately helped him level up and
00:47:29
obviously chth and others prior to that but these firsttime Founders that haven't had any sort of work experience
00:47:35
and have no concept of kind of organizational Dynamics and the challenges that will arise as you try
00:47:40
and build and scale a team to execute a mission typically need to have some degree of counseling mentorship and
00:47:46
support and so bringing in that degree of experience with someone who's ready and willing to partner with the founders
00:47:53
meaning not necessarily direct them but partner with them and help them learn as
00:47:58
Eric did and then ultimately handed the Reigns back to Larry and um as Cheryl did and ultimately Zuck continue to kind
00:48:05
of lead the company have been really powerful enabling forces but chamat is right the early days of Silicon Valley
00:48:11
venture capital were really framed around this concept where you find some smart technical founding team and then
00:48:17
you bring in a professional manager but that's because so much of the origin of technology in Silicon Valley was about
00:48:23
selling technology into an Enterprise so there was kind of a bit of a tried and true business model and business
00:48:29
structure that made sense the new era since the internet has been quite different every business model
00:48:36
imaginable has been reinvented in Silicon Valley and so success I think has largely Arisen in Reinventing
00:48:41
businesses Reinventing industries by kind of Novel independent thinking leaders not
00:48:48
necessarily bringing in experienced managers to scale up a known business model right and just I I think the
00:48:54
turning point was when Peter started Founders fund but that was over 20 years ago in other words Peter realized that
00:49:01
that old approach in the '90s of bringing in the professional management had run its course and that we needed to
00:49:08
help Founders level up and stay in the seat for as long as possible that was 22 years ago that he created that firm yeah
00:49:16
so we're like decades into this and that's what kind of feels an acronis stic about this whole discussion is it's
00:49:22
almost like we're pretending like we're still in a world in which Founders aren't celebrated and exalted is quite
00:49:28
the contrary they can do almost anything and the the question is how do you help
00:49:34
them level up and at some point if you're constantly just saying that well Founders know everything Founders always
00:49:40
right is that actually helping them or is it actually reinforcing a mentality that oh I don't have have to learn
00:49:47
anything because that all the great Founders have been learning machines but if they had been told throughout that
00:49:53
you're always right don't worry about it then they may not have learned the same
00:49:57
way did you say you met with Eric Schmidt recently shiman well I had a meeting with Eric Schmidt a few weeks
00:50:03
ago which blew my mind and I I think I called freeberg right afterwards but this is just an example of like there
00:50:09
are just people that know how to win he is one of those people so as part of 8090 one of the things that we're doing
00:50:16
is we're building a transpiler you know right now everybody is very much fixated
00:50:21
on pytorch and the problem with pytorch and building to is you have this thing called cuda in the middle of it which is
00:50:29
owned by Nvidia and and I think that over time that's problematic so the long-term solution is you need a
00:50:35
functional transpiler that can take Cuda littered code but be able to compile it
00:50:39
without losing performance to any hardware so Amazon Hardware Google TPU Etc so Eric and I sat down we were
00:50:46
together for a couple days when we were in Europe and we had a like a hour 90minut meeting the level of technical
00:50:54
detail and Mastery that he had blew me away and he asked hundreds of very very very specific questions some of which I
00:51:03
knew the answers to some of which I didn't I was able to ask him what he thought he was able to go into the weeds
00:51:10
in an enormous amount of detail and what I thought was where is he finding the time to know as much as he does about
00:51:20
compilers and the specifics of AI at this level of detail and and the story of telling you this example is just more
00:51:29
that that is a kind of person that is just rare and unique you can't put a label on that person and you just want
00:51:36
that person near you because he has the ability to help you in a way that most other people just do not irrespective of
00:51:43
whatever their title is so it it just goes to say like you got to focus on the actual meat of the problem and in that
00:51:51
specific case he gave us two technical directions that my team and I are EXP exploring now with this goal that if one
00:51:58
of them pens out I'll go back to Eric and say look we tried these things this is working this is not working what do
00:52:03
you think and it was an incredibly helpful meeting to me and he just offered that time to me and so I my
00:52:09
point is people like this exist and I think that the whole goal if you're trying to win seek those people out
00:52:16
independent of what they're doing what their title learn learn from them as much as you can and hopefully you get
00:52:22
one step closer to winning and get them on your team if possible yeah ideal all right here we go a panel of California
00:52:30
judges has ruled that section 230 does not protect Tik tok's algorithm in the case of the death tragically of a
00:52:37
10-year-old girl we've talked about section 230 and uh legislation to protect algorithms or to make algorithms
00:52:44
more editorial we'll get to that in a second but let me just queue up the story and then we'll play a clip from
00:52:49
episode 99 of Allin podcast in late 2021 a 10-year-old Pennsylvania girl accidentally killed herself while
00:52:56
participating in a Blackout Challenge she saw on Tik Tok that is a challenge that encourages viewers to choke
00:53:02
themselves with objects like belts until they pass out according to Bloomberg this challenge has been linked with the
00:53:08
deaths of 15 young people oh my God yeah this is terrible uh the child's mother sued Tik Tok arguing that their
00:53:16
algorithm served Blackout Challenge videos to her child thus making them responsible in the past algorithmic
00:53:22
decisions as we've talked about here were protected under Section 230 of the community
00:53:27
decency act just break this down very simply if you're section 230 that grants internet platforms featuring user
00:53:34
generated content immunity from being sued over content published by those users on their platform so YouTube Tik
00:53:41
Tok Twitter you know a blogging platform Etc so because of 230 you're technically
00:53:48
not supposed to be able able to go after something like Tik Tok because a random
00:53:52
user posted crazy videos like this but an appeals court shth has reversed that ruling with the judge arguing that Tik
00:53:59
tok's algorithm represents a unique quote unquote expressive product which communicates to users through a curated
00:54:06
stream of videos the judge claims Tik tok's algorithms ref reflect editorial judgment so here's the interesting legal
00:54:14
detail the new ruling specifically cites the Supreme Court's recent decision Moody versus Net choice in which the
00:54:20
Court ruled unanimously to vacate that Florida law we talked about here that ban tech companies from platforming
00:54:27
political officials so that was viewed as a big win for speech protection Sachs and moderation rights in big Tech but
00:54:35
this is all super ironic because the same ruling that affirm big Tech's First Amendment Protections in content
00:54:40
moderation may also have nullified the section 230 immunity so let's play this Quick Clip here chamoff this is a
00:54:48
discussion you and I had about should algorithms be part of section 230 back in 2022 let me break down an algorithm
00:54:56
for you okay effectively it is a mathematical equation of variables and weights an editor 50 years ago was
00:55:04
somebody who had that equation of variables and weights in his or her mind and so all we did was we translated
00:55:13
again this multimodal model that was in somebody's brain into a model that's mathematical that sits in code you're
00:55:21
talking about the front page Ed of the New York Times yeah and I think it's a fig Lea to say that because there is not
00:55:26
an individual person who writes 0. 2 in front of this one variable and 08 in front of the other that all of a sudden
00:55:34
that this isn't editorial decision- making is wrong we need to understand the current moment in which we live
00:55:41
which is that these computers are thinking actively for us and that is just true and so I think we need to
00:55:48
acknowledge that because I think it allows us at least to be in a position to rewrite these laws through the lens
00:55:55
of the 21st Century there's such an easy way to do this if you're Tik Tok if you're YouTube if you want section 230
00:56:01
if you want to have common carrier and not be responsible with there when a user signs up it should give them the
00:56:07
option would you like to turn on an algorithm here are a series of algorithms which you could turn on you
00:56:12
could bring your own algorithm you could write your own algorithm with a bunch of
00:56:16
Sliders or here are ones that other users and services provide like an app store so shamat that was uh your take on
00:56:24
it and here we are what are your thoughts on on Section 230 and algorithms today should if you use an
00:56:32
algorithm should that nullify void your section 230 protection I think it is a fig Lea to say that we've there's a
00:56:39
level of abstraction that should give us immunity I think that these algorithms are taught to iteratively become better
00:56:47
and better at hooking people on whatever is trending in that moment and I think it's probably known to these companies
00:56:55
at any given time what's trending so even though they're not literally going and changing something in the moment
00:57:03
does it mean that they don't support it it doesn't mean that they're not aware of it and it doesn't mean that they
00:57:07
haven't created a net to sort of catch these Lightnings in a bottle and spread them
00:57:15
around and so I think we just need to have a more intelligent discussion about how responsibility
00:57:24
should be shared in a where section 230 yeah you're right I'll just say it again we're not writing
00:57:30
deterministic code anymore it doesn't say if this then that show them the blackout video there is no piece of code
00:57:37
anywhere but it's it's kind of a fig Leaf to say that that isn't the intention of the way that the new form
00:57:43
of software is written yes correct sax your thoughts here on balancing 230 with the fact that I think we all agree that
00:57:51
these algorithms are the new modernday editors I don't agree I have a very different opinion on this than you guys
00:57:57
do and I always have well first of all let me just speak to the the um legal precedent here last year there were two
00:58:04
Court decisions addressing this very issue of whether algorithms basically obviated 230 protection and the court
00:58:13
found that they didn't there were a couple of cases involving in users who basically went
00:58:19
down a rabbit hole of like terrorist videos and got recruited by ISIS remember this yes and and they were sued
00:58:26
by the families of victims or at least the social networks were and the argument was that they
00:58:32
basically had been recruited into Isis and committed the terrorism because of the algorithms and the social networks
00:58:38
were liable for that Supreme Court found that they weren't which is just to say that algorithms were not treated
00:58:45
differently than if the content had been on a regular feed you know just a chronological feed and what section 230
00:58:53
says is that you can only hold the user liable we're going to treat social networks as Distributors not Publishers
00:59:00
for the purpose of user generated content I've L held the view that if you want to make online platforms liable as
00:59:09
Publishers for every piece of user generated content then you're going to have very little Free Speech left
00:59:15
because I just think that corporate risk aversion is going to force these guys to
00:59:19
become even more censorious than they already are every piece of content that could potentially lead to a lawsuit
00:59:26
is going to get shut down and I think that the net effect of that will be much more negative now to the argument about
00:59:34
aren't algorithms just the new editors I don't I don't think so I think there's a
00:59:38
fundamental difference between what an editor does and what an algorithm does if you look at an editorial page of the
00:59:44
New York Times The Wall Street Journal it has a very specific point of view that it's promoting in fact sometimes
00:59:50
you can't tell the oped page from the news page because it seems like that publication is so biest in favor of one
00:59:57
point of view or another an algorithm isn't supposed to do that an algorithm is supposed to give you more of what you
01:00:03
want and so therefore if you are pro Trump you'll see more prot Trump content if you're Pro KLA Harris you'll see more
01:00:11
Harris content in other words X or whatever the platform is isn't supposed to be taking an editorial position on
01:00:18
whether it supports Trump or Harris but rather it's giving you more of what you want Elon recently spoke to this that he
01:00:25
had a a tweet recently where he talked about hey people were coming to him saying hey I'm I'm seeing all these like
01:00:31
offensive things in my feed why is this well it turns out that they had been sharing those posts that were offensive
01:00:38
to them and so they were seeing more of them and that's a really good example of
01:00:42
how the algorithm just gives you more of what you're interacting with so don't interact with outrage porn if you don't
01:00:49
want to be outraged stop interacting with outrage porn and you'll see less of it I just think that is fundamentally
01:00:55
different than having an editorial point of view X does not have an editorial point of view that it wants you to see
01:01:01
more of that outrage it's simply the user is making clicks and you know clicking a share button in a way that it
01:01:08
interprets it to be saying oh this user wants more of that content yes and so this is why I don't think that all of a
01:01:15
sudden section 230 protection should be voided I just think it's a Fally different thing than what a publisher
01:01:22
does I have a third View and I'll bring you in on this discussion here freedberg
01:01:26
is that these algorithms have come become so powerful they are even better than editors at catering to users needs
01:01:35
because they're obviously uh onetoone casting right and so this is a perfect opportunity not to get rid of 230 but to
01:01:43
evolve it and as I said in that previous clip you know there is a big issue as to
01:01:48
who's making these algorithms in the case of Tik Tok the Chinese government's influence and you know what is their
01:01:54
intention and are they being thoughtful about it because they are powerful and what responsibility do they take is the
01:02:00
responsibility stopping at increasing the session because if you want to increase a session all you have to do is
01:02:07
keep showing more rage and getting people more upset and that leads to division in society and all kinds of
01:02:12
weird things that can occur and so empowering users and having more transparency would be a great way for
01:02:18
the government uh for individuals who are frustrated with this and the platforms to find some common ground and
01:02:24
involved what do you think think of this possibility freedberg of maybe you come
01:02:30
to YouTube and instead of shutting down to the and causing chaos to your point sacks which I I agree with that it would
01:02:35
cause chaos and more censoring just saying to people hey welcome to YouTube here are three ways you can view your
01:02:43
content by default you can pick our algorithm you can pick an education leaning algorithm you can pick a music
01:02:49
leaning algorithm or you could have no algorithm at all and you'll just be faced with a directory what do you think
01:02:55
of that as a maybe a middle ground here I'm not sure that giving people a choice of an algorithm is going to work
01:03:02
consumers just want to have stuff that incites emotion there's a reason you know horror movies do well and also
01:03:12
romantic comedies and also Adventure films like they're all emotive at the end of the day the more emotive
01:03:17
something is the more emotionally inciting it is the more likely you are to kind of want to have something like
01:03:23
that again and so that's simply the nature of how you know humans uh interact with the world around them when
01:03:32
something is emotionally inciting you want more of it and you get more of it and that that creates the dopamine and
01:03:36
that drives the the behavior the crazy thing about social media or digital media firstly is that the cycle the
01:03:43
feedback cycle is much faster used to be that you put out a book you wouldn't get
01:03:47
the results on how the book sold and how many people liked it and how many people
01:03:50
read it till a year later and then with movies you get results in a weekend but with social media you results instantly
01:03:56
when a piece of content comes out online you get an instant result and then with
01:04:00
the concept of a feed where the next content is dynamically selected for you based on your reaction to the content
01:04:07
prior to it you kind of get this immediate feedback loop that then tunes and lines up the next thing and now
01:04:12
you're getting hundreds of iterations an hour so I'm I'm not sure that there's really this like simple solve where let
01:04:17
me show you something that's like less inciting at the end of the day if it's something that's horrific or something
01:04:23
that's romantic or something that's inspiring if it's emotionally uh kind of activating enough you're going to be
01:04:29
happy watching the next one you're going to keep watching you're going to keep watching it I think there's a there is a
01:04:33
relatively easy solve which is you could simply open source the algorithm like X
01:04:38
has done so we can see is it messing with your mind or not is it actually biased are they actually inserting
01:04:45
editorial opinions into the algorithm and so if you open source it people can see what it's doing I actually I I hear
01:04:53
this point of view a lot that social media is only praying on negative emotions that argument is made a lot by
01:04:59
people who want to regulate it more and they want more censorship and that's why
01:05:02
they're making that kind of argument I don't think that the algorithm is only reacting to outrage or incitement I
01:05:08
think quite the contrary what I've seen on my exfeed is that it's showing me more stuff that I like and I'm that's
01:05:14
right I mean the algorithm's gotten so good yeah like if you go on YouTube I got I I love watching uh like videos of
01:05:21
mountain biking and I see like all these crazy mountain biking videos now and I'm
01:05:25
I love watching I'm like dude this is awesome it's I don't not making me angry I hear what you're saying but I would
01:05:31
just I would offer something slightly different which is I think that these algorithms focus on momentum so meaning
01:05:37
if freeberg spends the next 15 minutes looking at mountain biking videos the momentum shifts to mountain biking if he
01:05:44
then goes to surfing the algorithm goes to that there's a Decay function that's right yeah and the reason is that the
01:05:50
way that these if you go back to the actual models themselves the way that they're archit detected right like if
01:05:56
you look inside of a Transformer what is it there's a neural network part and then there's a self attention part what
01:06:02
is the self attention thing trying to do it's trying to figure out the momentum and the importance of a given input so
01:06:09
the core structure of the way that like we've solve the problem today is airing towards a thing where if actors in the
01:06:19
system wanted to create momentum in One Direction versus the other they can probably do it before they get caught
01:06:27
because the algorithms will amplify that and I think this is the whole point where these blackout videos it's not as
01:06:34
if somebody wanted to consume that per se as much as there was a moment in time where the momentum was towards those
01:06:43
videos a large swath of people got it and then the unfortunate tragedy is the very small percentage of people acted on
01:06:50
it and were killed this can happen over and over and over again on all kinds of different things and I think that's what
01:06:56
needs to be addressed and maybe 10-year-old shouldn't be allowed to use Tik Tok without any supervision maybe
01:07:01
that's a better answer that could be a better answer too I think based on some of our discussions you know yeah having
01:07:07
kids not have these phones at school and putting them into the pouches and no social media until you're 16 or 17
01:07:13
because one of the other things that's happening here is these algorithms are so
01:07:17
good that they are now causing a dopamine deficiency in children it's causing depression because you can get
01:07:26
desensitized and every time you swipe up you get a dopamine hit and then your brain gets reset and you have less
01:07:34
ability to get joy from having dinner with your family or playing cards with your friends or doing any other things
01:07:41
and that's what Doom scrolling does that's why we lost you sacks to the poker game you're too busy Doom
01:07:45
scrolling and you got addicted to it and you don't come to Poker anymore but this
01:07:49
is what we need to do as a society these phones are destroying everybody's lives
01:07:53
they're killing friendships they're killing these poor kids who are sitting there like zombies the algorithm is just
01:08:00
too good we have now the snake I will agree with that to some degree that I waste way too much time using X but I
01:08:09
mean I just do it to stay up on current events so I can do this pod yes that's my excuse too if I didn't have this pod
01:08:15
maybe I could just stop using it that'd be great I'd love to have that time back
01:08:18
and just read more books I'm you know what I'm going to do it with you we're going to go on a little social media
01:08:23
diet you and I from now on we're going to go for you been insane you've been lost your
01:08:29
mind mind you need a detox you need a detox anyone who disagrees with you is like on Putin's
01:08:36
payroll now my friend comrade Sach you're like The Reincarnation of Joe mccarth da da I
01:08:44
agree yes since you want to go into Russia here we go it's 50 days before the election on the brain and as
01:08:52
predicted we're 50 days before the election and who shows up Putin this is the greatest story
01:09:00
ever for those of you listening s just rolled his eyes it's so funny H this is just great okay the predicted there's
01:09:08
gonna be another Russia gate host just in time for the election here we are and by the way there's breaking news more
01:09:13
Russia stuff has dropped while we're on the Pod there's a lot of people who started with Trump derangement syndrome
01:09:19
and then they held Putin responsible for Trump getting elected so the TDS became
01:09:24
PDS syndrome let's get to the story here uh comrade I think this whole story is such
01:09:32
a waste of time we shouldn't even waste time on it well we're going to do it anyway so here we go the doj just
01:09:37
charged two Russian media operatives with infiltrating podcasts yes to push Pro Kremlin talking points this was a
01:09:45
wild drop on Wednesday jth the doj charged two Russian media operatives as part of an alleged wait for it
01:09:51
propaganda and misinformation scheme according to the charges the these two employees of the state run Russia Today
01:09:58
Outlet RT funnel $10 million into a Tennessee based media company to influence public opinion and SE social
01:10:07
divisions the wire transfers happened between October of last year and as recently as last month this included
01:10:14
placing blame on Ukraine Ukraine Ukraine for its conflict with Russia interesting
01:10:20
both Russians are charged with conspiracy to violate the foreign agents registration act and conspiracy to
01:10:26
commit money laundering they're looking at 20 years in jail the indictment did not mention the company by name but
01:10:31
people quickly figured out who it was because of their location the company's called tenant media founded in 2023 by
01:10:38
Lauren Chen a conservative commentator and their personalities included Tim P Benny Johnson Dave Rubin and Lauren
01:10:46
Southern these are right leaning podcasters in the last year tenant has posted 2,000 videos which collectively
01:10:53
had 16 million YouTube views according to the doj charges looks like the Russian operatives were coordinating
01:11:00
with the founders Jason let's say the quiet part out loud okay we've heard this from Bobby Kennedy we've heard this
01:11:07
from a whole host of other people we've now heard this from the doj there is an inextricable
01:11:14
link between the media and the people that pay for the media that want to influence what the media says we know
01:11:21
that to be true now in this specific case I hope the do runs us the ground and and gets and
01:11:28
gets Justice served what I would say generally is the most incredible decision we ever made is to not have
01:11:37
ads it has been the single biggest clarifying function for our ability to maintain our own opinions and be
01:11:48
credible it's allowed us to change our minds it's allowed us to evolve if if we were sort of characters in a movie we we
01:11:55
will have gone through different transitions frankly as as these last four years have gone by I think that
01:12:01
that would have been much harder to do if we had people paying us money yes so this is just yet another example
01:12:08
of your immediate diet the more it can come from people who don't need to make money from this the better off you will
01:12:16
be because you will get Earnest opinions and what will happen is whether it's large multinational corporations or
01:12:24
foreign State actors they are going to find unwitting people to take this money and blather on some set of talking
01:12:33
points yep on a whole host of topics okay and just to be I mean is that do we all agree with that or not I agree it
01:12:41
was a great move to not have advertising sure because it yeah there zero pressure
01:12:45
from anybody calling us saying we're going to pull our ad spots and also makes the PO easy to listen to mean none
01:12:50
of us need the money these personalities Tim P Benny Johnson Dave ran and Southern have I think most of them have
01:12:57
come out and said they didn't know the indictment says that they didn't know these podcasters and the indictment also
01:13:03
says they were paid huge sums of money upwards of $100,000 per episode to do this and it's unclear what they were
01:13:10
asked to do in the indictment but there are some pressure techniques to produce Wheats around certain things
01:13:20
that the Russians wanted propagated what pressure techniques they said in the indictment
01:13:26
that they wanted more traffic because they weren't hitting their traffic numbers and to
01:13:31
please amplify different videos and tweets that were pro-russian so that's in the indictment so I guess the
01:13:39
question then Sachs for you is mischaracterizing this how what what what what was mischaracterized I would
01:13:44
never mischaracterize this and I literally would never I have no horse in the race here there's no reason for me
01:13:49
to mischaracterize it so what am I miss what am I get you do have a horse in the
01:13:53
race you believe r hoax for many years and you want to basically try and restart that whole thing that's not true
01:13:59
you can ask me I I think Russia I've told this to you many times Russia's sole goal is to do is to sew division
01:14:07
between people in this country I refuse to allow it to do so on this podcast or between you and I the Russians just want
01:14:15
to produce chaos they do it on all sides they get green party people they get Democratic people that's been my story
01:14:20
from the begin okay it's been my I have said since the beginning that the kgb's technique in America is to sow division
01:14:28
that's their sole goal they don't care who wins they just want us to not pay attention to what they're doing in
01:14:33
Ukraine or what's happening in Russia that's Putin's goal so so I think the place to start is with asking the
01:14:40
question who is Lauren Chen and what is tenant media and what has been their objective or what's their agenda and
01:14:47
their agenda now for months has been what's called division grifting inside the conservative movement Lauren Chen's
01:14:54
been put putting out a lot of tweets explaining to people that they should vote against Trump she's been saying
01:15:00
that he has gone soft on issues like abortion she's been pushing a very tough pro-life message she's been promoting a
01:15:10
I'd say strange and almost fanatical idea that we should repeal the 19th Amendment which gave women the right to
01:15:17
vote no one in the conservative movement seriously thinks this and because of these positions she was already being
01:15:23
called out by people like Ashley stclair and Mike cernovich who said something's
01:15:29
not right here this seems like an OP like these positions don't really make any sense it seems like she's just
01:15:36
causing Mischief so the place to start here is to recognize that if the Russians were paying tenant media to put
01:15:45
out content that content was actually anti-trump it was trying to get people to vote against Trump so I think the
01:15:52
place you have to start is by asking the question why would Vladimir Putin want to get kamla Harris elected in fact
01:15:58
Putin just came out today and announced his endorsement of K haris so perhaps the Russians have an agenda to get
01:16:07
Harris elected I could see why she is the much weaker candidate she's afraid to take questions on the tarmac Trump is
01:16:14
strong he's authoritative and I could see why they might prefer to have a president Harris than a president Trump
01:16:21
let me just stop there and get your reaction to that jcal yeah I and I think the
01:16:27
sewing cernovich this point like that they just want to sew Division and cause chaos is the key point I don't think
01:16:34
that Putin cares who wins I think he just wants chaos here and he wants distraction so whether he flips he wants
01:16:40
Kamala he wants killary you know he wants Trump I think he just wants and that's what the KGB does that's what the
01:16:47
KGB has always done is try to get people to not believe reality and and that is their playbook for all history they want
01:16:55
to demoralize a population to not believe in their institutions to not believe facts and if it seems like there
01:17:03
it's working pretty well here in the United States I think that this is all wildly overstated but to the extent
01:17:09
we're going to deal with it at all I think it's really interesting how when the Russian operation benefits KLA
01:17:16
Harris nobody accuses her of collusion or being a puppet of Russia they just say it's about sewing division but
01:17:24
somehow op you just did that right now no no what op happened with Cala I'm not aware
01:17:30
was there an op the with tenant media it's benefiting her I just explain how oh yeah the four people are super an
01:17:37
there's a double standard there's a double standard in the coverage here and how it's interpreted when the op when
01:17:42
the alleged op benefits Harris it has nothing to do with Harris when the alleged op benefits Trump trump must be
01:17:49
a Russian agent must be a Russian puppet there must have been collusion and you were among the four front of people
01:17:55
saying that Trump himself was compromised now I never said Trum no no I have to correct you that I've never
01:18:01
said Trump was compromised I said the people around him were compromised because they kept taking meetings and
01:18:05
money from the Russians and this is the Russian Playbook no I believe you never believed in Russia putting a words aside
01:18:12
and claims like this and you're telling me what I think you can ask me what I think and I can tell you very clearly
01:18:17
again that I think their plan is to find simple-minded people to give them money
01:18:23
and to cause chaos and Division in our country I don't think that they got to Trump I think they got to almost
01:18:29
everybody around him and if you look at those people who show up at Putin dinners and you look at who takes money
01:18:35
it's all around Trump and the Russians are experts at this and they did it to the green party they just sprinkle money
01:18:41
around people to cause this type of chaos that's the goal s how many times have I got to say this to you clearly I
01:18:47
don't have a horse in this race I think all Americans I'll say it again so that you can understand it and the audience
01:18:52
can understand my position very clearly their goal is to get us to fight with each other so we don't look at their
01:18:59
invasion of Ukraine or what's happening with the suffering of the Russian people
01:19:03
and we as Americans should not be partisan on this issue we as Americans should all come together you sax me and
01:19:09
everybody else and say we don't want the Russians interfering in our elections or
01:19:14
causing Division and we're not going to make this political look jcal this is the third straight election in America
01:19:22
in which we've been led to believe that there's essentially massive Russian interference in our election but I think
01:19:31
we should ask what did we learn since the last two elections in 2016 okay we had the steel
01:19:37
dossier which hatched the whole Russia gate hoax we subsequently found out that Hillary's campaign freed the steel
01:19:45
dossier and then that was taken up by the Deep State they basically did a investigation of the Trump campaign they
01:19:52
went to the fisa court they lied to the fisa court and we had a 2-year independent Council investigation based
01:19:58
on a piece of opposition research that turned out to be completely phony but we heard every day on cable news for years
01:20:04
that the Russians had somehow interfered in that election never proven in 2020 we
01:20:09
heard that the Russians again were interfering because you had those 51 Security State operatives say that
01:20:15
Hunter Bay's laptop was Russian disinformation that turned out to be a total lie the laptop was authentic that
01:20:21
was just a madeup story that the Russians were involved after that let's not forget there was newsguard and
01:20:27
Hamilton 68 which were two bogus media Watchdog groups that were deep State Ops that were designed to get conservative
01:20:35
content censored as Russian disformation so now after all of these Ops in which it was alleged that the Russians
01:20:42
interfere in our elections and those stories turned out to be completely bogus we now have this new one about
01:20:48
tenant media and I don't know the truth of this story I can't say one way or another whether it's accurate or not but
01:20:54
what I've learned is not to take these things at face value and if we are to take it at face value tenant media was
01:20:59
working against Trump's interests so apparently the Russians don't want Trump to win the presidential election they
01:21:06
want KLA Harris yeah and I agree that Trump was not compromised by the Russians just the people around him and
01:21:13
to recap for people since maybe they don't remember Michael Flynn uh who was the National Security adviser uh pled
01:21:19
guilty to lying to the FBI in 2017 about his contacts with the Russians Paul manfor who was the campaign chairman for
01:21:27
Trump had ties to pro-russian figures in the Ukraine and shared polling data with
01:21:32
the Russian Associates during the campaign he was convicted of tax and bank fraud in 2018 uh later pardoned by
01:21:39
Trump like Michael Flynn was pardon Rick Gates who was the de Deputy chairman uh
01:21:44
he worked closely with Paul maniford he pled guilty to conspiracy and lying to investigators George Papadopoulos I
01:21:51
won't bring up because he was kind of a joke and then Roger Stone was investigated for all his contacts with
01:21:58
Wikileaks he was convicted of obstruction lying to Congress and witnessing in 2019 so have I was
01:22:06
literally drop off being convicted that's four people convicted I don't know what the point of bringing up all
01:22:12
these investigations are when you said the most important thing which is you do not believe that Trump was a Russian
01:22:16
agent despite the fact despite the fact that for years that's what Democrats maintained my maintaining is once again
01:22:23
fourth time is that the the Russians are trying to cause division in America and
01:22:27
we shouldn't all fall for it hey fredberg I think we shouldn't fall for Hamilton 68 I think we shouldn't have
01:22:32
fallen for News Guard I think we shouldn't have fallen for the steel dossier I think we shouldn't fall for
01:22:36
the Russia gate hoax jcal stop falling for all these that's why we should be United let's be United freeberg you've
01:22:43
got some passionate thoughts on Cala Harris pivoting a little bit around her economic policies in the last week or
01:22:50
two let's wrap with that what are your thoughts no pass no passionate thoughts Jake did any of you guys see that video
01:22:56
I sent you of kamla's campaign speech in New Hampshire yesterday so basically for
01:23:01
the audience yeah she fundamentally pivoted from a lot of the statements she made a few weeks ago that I think caused
01:23:08
a resounding uh amount of commentary about being anti- bus anti-economic Prosperity
01:23:16
a lot of people called these comments socialist in nature and apparently she heard the feedback and is now pivoting
01:23:23
the message and pivoting the policy so you know I think the one question to understand is how real is the pivot and
01:23:29
how much is this about getting elected she uh she made a couple of key announcements at this campaign speech
01:23:35
yesterday the first one is that she started out saying that small businesses are the lifeblood of our economy she's
01:23:41
uh proposing that we increase the startup tax deduction from $5,000 to $50,000 if you start up a new business
01:23:48
and you're generating profitable income you can deduct up to $50,000 on the the year that you start the company up she
01:23:55
made an emphasis on getting rid of red tape and deregulating a lot of aspects that make it hard to start companies she
01:24:02
talked a lot about the importance of venture capital and Venture dollars and that there's a goal to Spur 25 million
01:24:10
new SBA loan applications by the end of her term so in the next four years which
01:24:15
would be a massive increase in government lending to small businesses she also stepped back the capital gains
01:24:21
tax proposal that was made by Under the Biden Administration that she previously said was her policy
01:24:27
as well and is now proposing a 28% capital gains tax instead of the 40 something percent that I think was the
01:24:35
previous proposal so a 28% capital gains tax only applied to households with a net worth greater than a million dollars
01:24:43
but towards the end of her speech she still talked a lot and got a lot of Cheers around the idea that billionaires
01:24:49
and big corporations need to pay their fair share and that there needs to be methods of increasing the tax ation of
01:24:55
billionaires and big corporations as they're kind of classified by her and some of the other Democrats so I don't
01:25:02
know is the pivot real is she becoming more Pro bus is she responding to the critical feedback she's received over
01:25:08
the last few weeks or you know is this just about getting elected is this going to persist
01:25:14
is this a change in policy chth I hand it over to you I think that this is all the tactics
01:25:21
leading to the debate on September the 10th I think I think that a lot of this polling you're you're seeing the sugar
01:25:28
high fade on both sides and I think what we can acknowledge is that the setup going into this debate is eerily
01:25:38
reminiscent of the setup going into the first debate between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton which was a very
01:25:45
profound Sensation that there was a popular vote advantage to the Democratic candidate Hillary then KLA now but what
01:25:54
everybody got wrong last time and now what people are doing a much more refined job other than Nate silver this
01:26:03
time around is then being able to do a more nuanced look at the Electoral College
01:26:08
probability which is in the opposite direction favoring Donald Trump and Nota so I think that the Democrats have
01:26:14
realized that the sugar high isn't going to win the election they need to be specific in ways that gets moderates and
01:26:22
the only way to do that is to T to the middle because a lot of these other trial balloons were kind of nutty and
01:26:29
those people are not going to win them the election in the key states that matter again I you know it's what we've
01:26:33
said before five things in five states right that's what it's going to come down to it's also I think you've made
01:26:40
this point shamat as well which is when you're running for the primaries and I think Dean Phillips when he was on the
01:26:45
program talked about this you've got one agenda and that tends to be a bit extreme because you're trying to get
01:26:50
those extreme people in primaries to come out then when you get to to the general election you kind of come
01:26:56
towards the middle and we said on this very podcast and I I gave a couple of disclaimers as the moderator here hey we
01:27:01
don't know these are commulist policies because a she's not talking to anybody B
01:27:05
she hasn't released any so maybe you know she's taking feedback I have some inside information on this which is
01:27:13
there are people in our circles who are sitting with her saying these things are
01:27:19
crazy and maybe pointing to our podcast and other reactions online and and maybe
01:27:25
we should really think what do you want to do potentially Madam president when you're president if you do win and I
01:27:34
think she's starting to think from first principles hey what is actually good for
01:27:38
the countries that would be a very honest way of looking at this she's not thinking from first principles are you
01:27:42
kidding she's reading from a teleprompter no no I'm talking about in her policies I you can you can make
01:27:47
whatever digs you want to her style and that's valid you can make whatever digs you want to Trump style what I'm talking
01:27:52
about is said principles yeah well from her first principles ask her writers are
01:27:57
giving her new talking points okay listen can you stop with the personal attacks on people and just personal ATT
01:28:03
he's a candidate for the presidency of the United States he's actually answering your question he's answering
01:28:07
your question jcal he's saying that they're not real policy they not let me finish my thought and then you can and
01:28:11
then you can deride her style I'm trying to have something about J Jason it's a substance Point okay let me finish my
01:28:17
point and then you can talk about substance or style I think what happened here is she was put into the position as
01:28:23
president and had to in a very short period of time come up with what her positions
01:28:28
would be because everybody knows when you're the vice president your positions are what the president thinks we've made
01:28:33
that point about JD Vance that his position on wanting a National Abortion ban has nothing to do with trumps and
01:28:38
Trump's wins in that situation so here we are I think it's a similar situation Biden might have been captured and
01:28:44
wanted to do this crazy wealth tax and this you know seizure of people's assets whereas maybe she actually is much more
01:28:51
moderate and that's what people around her have always said is that she's more moderate and that she's coming to
01:28:56
actually form her own platform and she just needed time to do that I'm I'm giving what I'm hearing from the left
01:29:03
this isn't necessarily my position sacks this is what I'm hearing from the people
01:29:06
around kamla Harris okay let me tell you what's really going on here long okay here we
01:29:15
go the long time Democratic pundit Roy tashera just had a piece out called Vince Lombardi Democrats where he quoted
01:29:23
Vince Lombardi saying winning isn't everything it's the only thing and so obviously what's happening now is that
01:29:31
KLA Harris will say whatever she needs in order to win but the the question that voters should be asking who is this
01:29:37
person really because obviously what she's going to do once you give her the the keys to the government is going to
01:29:43
be different than whatever she's saying right now and we do have a lot of background on this person she came up
01:29:48
through the San Francisco political machine she was a product of the progressive Pelosi machine in sanan
01:29:55
Francisco she then Rose to the Senate she was voted by GV track as the most liberal member of the Senate and just a
01:30:02
few weeks ago when she first announced her economic proposals they were all this super far-left stuff like the
01:30:09
unrealized gains tax and a 44% cap gains rate so that's where her instincts were
01:30:16
that was what was in the Biden Harris budget that was in her campaign platform and that was in her Economic Policy
01:30:21
speeches and then what happened is there was a huge negative reaction to all of that so now she's changing her talking
01:30:27
points but it's obvious what's going on she's going to say whatever is necessary
01:30:31
to win the election but you're a fool and kidding yourself if you think you're going to get something really different
01:30:39
after the election you're GNA get a continuation of the Biden Harris Elizabeth Warren economic program that
01:30:47
we've had for the last four years how would you say Trump's position on abortion relates to to that you know
01:30:53
don't don't people adap their position based on winning I mean I think he's done a master class in changing his
01:30:57
position in J he never changed his position you don't seem to understand how that issue Works he was in favor of
01:31:05
returning it to the states he's been completely consistent on that and I don't know why you keep bringing it back
01:31:11
to that always whenever Comm Harris isn't doing well it's always about abortion for you well no I think it's a
01:31:16
great example of a politician moving to the center on the issue he just said this week that he wants more than six
01:31:22
weeks right and so he's moving towards he didn't just say that it's always been his position he's always been a moderate
01:31:27
on the issue jcal yeah he's against a National Abortion ban he's always been in favor of returning to the states I
01:31:33
don't even understand how this is like you're still talking about this well the reason I talk about is because there's
01:31:38
so many States including the one I'm living in where women can't get an abortion okay they're gonna have to
01:31:43
cross the state line you're right that's an issue so I mean I I think women feel
01:31:46
differently about it than you know you brushing it aside they feel that Trump I'm not brushing aside I'm just stating
01:31:51
what the truth the issue is yeah no no I'm just saying the truth for women on a second if you want to vote on that
01:31:56
issue that's your right go for it all I ask is that you correctly State Trump's position on that issue which he stated
01:32:02
on our own podcast yeah and that's the point I'm bringing up is I think States the evangelicals are really upset about
01:32:09
him in their perception changing his mind and women their view of it is he took away their right in the states
01:32:15
where like the one I live in you can't get an abortion okay everybody this has been an amazing episode of the all-in
01:32:20
podcast we got your business UPF front great discussion politics that got super toxic at the end it's the mullet that
01:32:26
you love business and then political parties at the back for the Sultan of science who did an amazing job setting
01:32:34
up all these amazing speakers and doing all the work on the all-in summit taking
01:32:38
place next week we thank you for your efforts Sultan of science David freeberg you excited here for the team J it's a
01:32:47
team it takes it it's a team sport that's right for the chairman dictator look at that look at that silver fox
01:32:54
look at him with that great hair when is it going to stop you going to cut it for
01:32:59
the summit or you just wow he's going big and the ar welcome to 48 welcome to 48
01:33:07
the architect David Sachs my bestie welcome toter welcome see you on Twitter sxy welcome to 48 welcome to 48 I think
01:33:16
you st making a fo of yourself on Twitter going I think yes and you should do another 30
01:33:22
tweets a day about UK we'll see you all next time everybody byebye let your winners
01:33:29
ride Rainman David and instead we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy
01:33:38
with it love [Music] you besties are that's my dog taking driveways oh man oh man myit meet me we should all
01:33:58
just get a room and just have one big huge orgy cuz they're all just useless it's like this like sexual tension that
01:34:03
they just need to release somehow we need to get merch [Music] our I'm going in and now the plugs you
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