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welcome back to the Allin podcast the number one business technology and political podcast in the world I am your
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host Jay Cal Jason kakanis and with us today three of my besties you got David freeberg cackling over there he is your
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sultant of science previously known as the queen of quinoa but he sold the Quin Juan business made a killing in quinoa
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also with us back from Italy back from Italy shamal ptia he's at 67% button and uh he's not happy about it but the
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hair looks great you still got a little sea salt from the the yachting I think I'm going to try to keep my hair along
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let's see what happens did you bring any of the sea salt back with you from the Mediterranean put it in a little bottle
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to spray or no no but I do have Minal oil oh okay great and have you showered in the last week or is it still you got
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the Mediterranean glove every day I've showered since I've gotten back see that's the problem you were you don't
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you don't have the SE to use as a natural you know disinfectant anot exfoliant exfoliant also yeah look how
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many buttons he's got going I know it's just TR beginning I feel uncomfortable for your neck I mean it's like creeping
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all the way up your neck looks like a prisoner let your winners [Music] ride David we open source to the fans and
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they've just gone crazy with it Love Queen [Music] I walked here but I had it totally
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unbuttoned and I thought this is completely inappropriate for Meo Park in August so I buttoned two buttons back in
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business mode he's in business casual mode he went from casual to business okay and with us of course the Dark
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Knight himself yeah the Rainman David Sachs and we have a bestie guesty for you folks friend of my other pod this
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week in startups Reed Hoffman is here and uh you know him as a venture capitalist board member at Microsoft and
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you the co-founder or the founder of LinkedIn I don't know if you had a co-founder co-founder co-founder of
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LinkedIn now owned by Microsoft he's got his own podcast masters of scale and uh he he and David
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saxs work together at PayPal Reed give it welcome to the program and give us a little story what
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is your fondest memory or the most quirky memory David S and that all those weirdos I'm sorry not supposed to use
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the word weird anymore I get banned on all of those unique personalities at PayPal tell us about that moment in time
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and do you remember the first time you met David sex yeah I met um David uh because Peter had known him from
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Stanford and hired him in um and you know David uh very quickly because he you know uh has a has a strong learning
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curve as he plays these things kind of got the Instinct of what the game we were playing with PayPal was and it's
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part of the reason why why I think you know each of the execs have had you know kind of key contributions to making um
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you know kind of PayPal successful and and David's was this kind of like um maniacal focused on the kind of the the
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cycle of how the product worked on eBay um and like like there was just a whole bunch of stuff I learned from him it's
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part of how I track you know kind of you know people I respect is what do I learn from them and that was one of
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the things that I would say I learned from uh David at PayPal that's nice David tell us your first memory of
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meeting Reed Hoffman would you remember where you were do you remember the conversation and yeah yeah I think well
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we met through Peter you know and Reed I think Reed was on the board of was confinity back then and then joined
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full-time what were you like 28 27 29 no I mean let's see um this would have been
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2000 I I guess it would have been 27 when I first joined PayPal 27 28 I guess something like that yeah 99 so whatever
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that was yeah in any event I mean I'll just to return the compliment you know PayPal had all these existential issues
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where you had these larger entities trying to kill us Visa Mastercard eBay who else oh the let goes on City Bank
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yeah and uh Reed was was kind of our Emissary who kept all these dogs at Bay and managed to I guess be friends with
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them I guess to some degree even though they wanted to kill us and re was kind of in charge of making sure that these
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existential issues didn't blow up on us and they didn't so we got pretty lucky there it's it's the Will Rogers line
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it's politics is the art of saying nice doggy while you hunt for a stick tell us
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like a moment read that is incredibly memorable to you from that PayPal era you know some existential moment or one
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of the more difficult or funny moment moments late night moments that would be indicative of that era and whatever was
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in the water that Drew all that talent to one place well part of it is that I mean
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this is you know among the things I was learning from from Peter was that Peter and Max uh recruited just a tremendous
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focus on on uh like intense learning curves so you know it was one of the things that Peter later was like okay I
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guess you have to interview for being on sports teams and so forth because this teamwork thing does matter but like high
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performers and it was kind of like a like and that was part of the reason why there was such intense um you know kind
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of uh Innovation and capability um you know probably the most stunning memory I had at at at PayPal is we you know we're
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all young we're all first time we're we're kind of doing a startup that matters you know kind of uh making this
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stuff happen and we do this merger with XTO and and you know like pre the merger
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closing um you know Elon is is saying oh I got this CEO Bill Harris he's the best
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ever that's part of the reason why you should give so much percentage to the company deck.com and the merger You Know
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da d d d da and then after um the merger literally the first meeting I had with Elon is Bill Harris is a complete
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disaster we need to fire him right away like like before we get to the first board meeting we need him fired
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and I'm like uh Elon you need to talk to Peter about this well I mean my he is decisive
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that's for sure all right well let's get into we want you know we're going to go
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a little bit mullet here fredberg we're going to start with business and uh then
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maybe we had a we had a fun meeting about that topic at a place in paloalto that no longer exists called Antonio's
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Nut House yes exactly yes the legendary Antonio's n house yeah and when Bill eventually did meet his demise um at
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PayPal it was called The Nut House coup he got whacked at The Nut House where on the pool tables in the back you
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whacked him or in the boots in the front well it he wasn't whacked he was whacked
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at a board meeting not at the nut house but certain plans were formulated at the
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the back of Antonio's Nut House it's Antonio's Nut House is um yeah the most unhygienic bar in the Bay Area and then
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that's that's a pretty low Benchmark let's just leave it at that we'll start with some business here talk a little Ai
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and then since two of our panelists have a passion we'll do the party political parties at the end everybody knows re
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was a co-founder of inflection Ai and as a general partner at Greylock and uh one
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of the founding investors also in open AI there's a good story there I'm sure and we just got results Reed uh from
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Nvidia results were good they beat across the board stock was down after hours analysts said probably profit taking
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putting that aside we've never seen a chart like this in the history of uh business I would say data seter Revenue
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26.3 billion 87% of their revenue now you remember Nvidia started obviously with you know video games and and uh
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didn't have a major Data Center business that has exploded uh net income 16.6 billion gross margin
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75% and uh here's your chart on a total basis nvidia's Revenue scale up is basically unlike anything we've seen But
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if you look their C quarter over quarter Revenue over the past couple years things are starting to cool off
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significantly after that giant boom R what's your take on nvidia's just incredible run here is it sustainable
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will they have competitors and do you think this buildout this massive buildout we're seeing from startups to
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sovereigns you know to Microsoft which you're on the board of Google Apple Etc is this sustainable and is this going to
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keep going well I got asked that question unsurprisingly by many public market investors over the year yeah and
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I said basically told them and say Hey look it's sustainable for two years which for you guys means
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forever yeah eight full quarters yes exactly so that that's Infinity right in terms of time um you know uh Nvidia has
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a very sharp you know kind of lead on the importance of the the chips for the training clusters um you know they're
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they're effective on inference um but I do think that as you kind of scale the demand there'll be a lot of inference
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chips uh coming in um you know I think chamath here invested in one of those oh um and um I think there's going to be a
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bunch of those kind of coming in and and and the bulk of the demand will be on the inference side and then Nvidia will
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have this challenge of do I try to keep my prices and my margin or do I do what what we like competition do I have to
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respond to the competitive market and that I think will will play out you know start playing out probably in a year two
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at the latest and then kind of go so I think it's not sustain the the the pure heat is not sustainable um but I think
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it's you know nvidia's got a very strong position and and um you know I definitely I would recommend people not
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be short on Nvidia yeah today so yeah there's growth left competition is coming and this is
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probably not the type of stock you would want to short at this moment in time yeah uh freeberg what are your thoughts
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on this buildout uh as well as the software buildout that's occurring and when do you think we're going to see
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some competition come into the space I don't know if this competition and the buildout I think we talked about this in
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the past I don't know if you guys saw these quotes this week or recently on we don't think about this build out in
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terms of Roi Gavin Baker in conversation on invest like the is that the name of podcast y I think referen some been with
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the leaders of these regarding the buildout is so important because ultimately if you create this quote
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digital God the you know return is how many trillions so it doesn't matter how many tens of billions you're spending
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each quarter right now you have to get there you have to make sure you don't miss the boat I guess Reed a question
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for you you're on the board of Microsoft still right like yes indeed as Microsoft
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SAA publicly talked about how they rationalize the investing principles associated with building out AI
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infrastructure in the cloud is it Roi based like hey in the next two years we're going to make this much additional
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incremental operating profit ory we got to get this thing working right right to
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be more precise is the investment driven by Roi or does everyone just say this is
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so strategic we just have to win it and we'll throw all the resources we have to
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at this well so um what well one board members speaking for Microsoft is you know is forbidden so I'm not speaking
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for Microsoft just speaking for me right um two all all cloud computing platform
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companies how are yeah what's your s on how they're thinking it's just one of the principles in the Microsoft thing is
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the company speaks for itself board members don't don't don't speak for them um but you know I think SAA is like the
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best public market CEO of our uh Generation Um I think he is stunning um in kind of blending com
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combination of strategic Insight with also kind of being you know kind of return on Capital you know sensible
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risk-taking Etc and so the actual thing between your guys questions in terms of because I can comment on how SAA thinks
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with this stuff is he's both thinking about like it's a platform change and you have to be there for the platform
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change for productivity for cloud Etc and okay let's rationalize the capital to when are we expecting Revenue how do
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we get Revenue sooner to to have that as a good productive cycle how do we um you
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know be not trying to you know just uh spend like drunken Sailors which is easy to do right but but to to be targeting
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you know kind of business outcomes and it's part of the reason why you know like like like you know he's very
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focused on what are we doing with office what are we doing Cloud what are we doing with you know as opposed to like
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you you you rarely hear him talking about AGI or never digital Gods because it's kind of the question of I am I am
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focused on this in a business sense and I think that's that's kind of the way he's doing it but there is obviously a
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you know kind of a it's hard to predict the future when it's novel and unknown in platforms and it's part of the reason
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why you have all the hyperscalers now you know kind of fully engaged and intelligently engaged because you say
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well if even it's just a new platform by which you know kind of software everything with with with a computer
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unit in it whether it's a a phone or a speaker or a computer or anything else anything with a with a with a with a
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with a kind of a CPU or a GPU gets more intelligent like you can't miss out on that platform um and so that's that's I
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think the the thing that's motivating everybody but it's obviously you know how to do that smart is one of the
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things that uh you know everybody is I'd say obsessing about every week what do you think about the open
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source movement versus closed Source you were one of the original donators to open aai you were originally on the
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board and there's a couple of ways to go with this question but I just want to start with forget about the corporate
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structure over there we'll get to that in a second but I want to talk specifically about open source met is T
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met is obviously far behind open aai far behind Google Microsoft so they went open source when you're behind you go
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open source I guess is the idea here um but they're making some big progress who
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do you think is going to win this ultimately an open- Source uh provider of llms or proprietary closed Source
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like open AI is and it's confounding to say open AI is closed but closed AI yeah um look from the very founding
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open AI was never claiming it was going to be open source was claiming it was going to be one safety Open Access um
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and not differential or controlling access uh for that and I think that's they stayed true to that principle which
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is I think what the Genesis of the word open is there and um look I think the key thing is there's going to be winners
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all over the place I think there's going to be winners in the open source side um
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and you know I don't I don't know if llama's going to win from its open source thing as much as it's just TR
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saying hey we're training these models so we're going to you know uh put them out there because our closed system
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closed loop you know doesn't require selling for tokens and so forth but there's also you know Mr all and other
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folks who were doing competent models um and then I think that the uh the but you
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know there'll be wins in different ways so it's not like I think like for example you know I think there's going
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to be a bunch of different startups they're win whether it's coding agents or you know kind of very specific
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applications within medical or other kinds of things and I think they will you know generate big companies and I
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think large companies like you know the hyperscalers are going to are going to succeed as well now in the pure model
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competition the question is when do we start seeing a a a a Asm toote to scale and um and my guess is and you know kind
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of the gbt landmarks is each order of magnitude my guess guess is the soonest will be
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gpd6 um and it might not even it may even be after that and that's part of what the the bet that open Ai and
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anthropic and the hyperscalers are all making is that that that return to scale and then that has a lot of Downstream
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effects because even if you say we can train smaller models uh to do effective things part of what's going to be really
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instrumental for training those smaller models is the larger models so like even
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if there's a bunch of smaller models that are specifically capturing other kinds of Market opportun ities which is
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part of what I've been doing and investing in AI since you know 2014 2015 um you know there's a there's a
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there's going to be a a set of those things that are all a whole bunch of startup opportunities so I think it's
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that the the a versus B is is is is a good dramatic framing um but it's really on which specific opportunities because
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there's going to be wins and opportunities across them uh sorry just real quick do you
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think there's one um llm or one found AAL model read that effectively does everything like a meta model that starts
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to take most of the market or does different versions of smaller models or small agents that kind of network
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together end up being the best solution for specific applications and verticals like how does this evolve over time like
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everyone's got this concept that there's a God model that does everything and wins and whoever gets the god model wins
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everything but the reality of software and principles of biology would indicate that you'll see like smaller Network
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things that are better at doing things than any one big thing and I'm to hear your point of view on the philosophy of
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that yeah I think the mistake that people make is they think precisely it's like the one model to rule them all it's
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like sauron's ring and actually in fact um already today like for example one of
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the things that happens with all the model providers at Microsoft and open eye which I've seen is all sometimes Sub
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in like GPD 3.5 as opposed to four to see what the answers are because there's a cost of compute even as you learn to
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bring the cost of the compu of the larger models down the larger models are always going to be a lot more expensive
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and by the way they're going to be more expensive kind of probably Loosely on the order of magnitude right so it's
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like well it's 10x larger it's 10x more expensive totally and and so when you're
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trying to say hey I'm trying to make business models work the language translation right if I just want to do
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language translation I don't need a massive model I just need a model that's really good at language translation
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exactly and so think you're going to see is is is networks of models and like kind of traffic control and escalation
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and all the rest and agents are not going to be one model they're going to be blends of models and that's one of
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the reasons why you say well there's actually in fact a lot of a lot of room for startups because it's not like we
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say well we we take gbd 7 and we just serve it for everything it's like well it's going to be super expensive and
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there's a whole bunch of things about like serving it more cheaply and like for example one of the the the really
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great technical papers that I love for Microsoft is you know all you need is textbooks it's like you can you can
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train very specific models on kind of like high quality data um along with by the way the larger model helping train
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it that all of a sudden you have a functional smaller model and you know the the question will be a blends of
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these things so I think the the the the multimodel model approach is I think going to be you know quickly Universal
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what is your take on I in this new era we uh see open Ai and you're not on the open AI board anymore right you're so
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you're dependent of that even though you made a big donation at some point donation and investment I led the the
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first commercial series first commercial so you're an investor in it and you donated to it but actually let's start
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there what's up with that corporate structure how do we make sense of that something's a nonprofit you donated to
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it and then you invested in it and everybody's making money and selling and secondary at 100 billion how does that
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work in the world so um so it's it's a 51 C3 is the governor thing that's what started and you know when you know kind
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of Elon and Sam were starting this and said look we need you know philanthropic support and we're we're trying to make
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sure that there's like open access to AI which is going to be an instrumental technology and we've got some great
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technologists who want to come do this we started as a as a you know kind of as a 501c3 for doing it that that that
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persists as far as I know till today then you know one of Sam Alman 's you know pieces of Genius was that he kind
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of said look we're going to need scale capital and I'm trying to go out to raise and Commercial round was 600
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million I'm trying to raise 600 million philanthropy and is not working right so
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so I have this idea which is the 501c3 which is doing this kind of research mission of you know AGI for Humanity is
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also producing commercial benefits and we can create initially an LP which has a a kind of a a a a a revenue right on
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the commercial things that investors can invest in and you know um you know Reed
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it be really helpful if you led this um because you know and I was like well but
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you don't have a go to market plan you don't have a product plan you don't have a business plan like yeah yeah but you
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know like we we need to show that we're actually serious with the business I said all right fine I will I will lead
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it for my Foundation um you know because even though none of these things we like
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to see as investors were there but I was like look okay I'll lead it as inv I'll
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manage it as an investment but I'll do as an investment for my Foundation um in order to do this and um and what you
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know you know kind of that was kind of as we were beginning to get in a you know like kind of we we hadn't seen
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anything they were still doing DOTA and and robot hands and bunch of those so it's like we're betting on the scale
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thesis of generating something magical and so we hadn't seen gbd3 yet um and of course once that started coming then it
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was like well we need a bunch more Capital let's do a strategic you know you know um you know connection and
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let's talk to all the hyperscalers and let's work out a deal by which one of them invest in us and and and then you
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know the the Microsoft openi deal came together with you know converting the lp into a subsidiary of the nonprofit you
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know kind of saying look um there's all kinds of benefits that both open Ai and Microsoft can get from a business deal
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um and so that's that's that that's what's led to you know the structure um you know that I was familiar with before
00:22:58
the board do you what did you think of elon's first lawsuit and then he dropped it and then he refiled where where do
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you think he's coming from well um what what is the uh you know I'm not very charitable about those lawsuits um
00:23:18
you know I would like to be because you know elon's one of the entrepreneurial Heroes of our time and generation but I
00:23:25
think it's the I think it's you know frankly I think probably the most thing to say is sour grapes um because you
00:23:32
know for example I know Sam offered him as much of the investment round as he wanted right like he could have done the
00:23:38
whole thing he could have let it you know it was kind of like hey look we still love you we still and like and he
00:23:43
was like no it's not a company that I control it's going to fail so I'm not interested in investing and I was like
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okay right and so now you're getting these lawsuits that are like you know um like I was misled it was like you were
00:23:56
offered everything at every opportunity other than converting open AI into a company that you you completely owned
00:24:02
and so um you know I think it's without without basis without Merit but why do you think he would have dropped it and
00:24:09
then refiled where do you think that comes from is was is there new information do you think or I think it
00:24:14
was a jurisdiction issue Jamal oh that makes sense I got fact that but Reed I mean Elon put in the
00:24:20
first what $44 million and he doesn't have any shares yeah I by the way put in 10
00:24:26
million at the same time and I don't have any shares from those 10 million but do you think that he kind of got
00:24:31
screwed because he doesn't have any shares I mean at the time he put in the 44 million it was never going to be a
00:24:36
for-profit now it's a for-profit a lot of people are profiting you know assuming the paper Mark ends up being
00:24:43
realized so he doesn't own anything I mean if you the seed investor and put up 44 million and something and then
00:24:50
everyone's making money and you don't have any shares forget about the legal technicalities wouldn't you have a
00:24:55
feeling of being screwed well I look I can understand the emotion of that but like it's not like
00:25:00
elon's short of money right and so if you go look I'd like to have shares like I did invest in the other thing I didn't
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get any shares for the 10 million that I put in and by the way it's not just legal technicalities it's actually
00:25:12
really important that you're not doing private enrichment off philanthropic donations and so you know it's it's but
00:25:19
isn't that what's happened um no from a Viewpoint of they're held separate right um and so
00:25:29
you know and the 501c3 continues to to control the um you know kind of control the kind of the the the the mission and
00:25:38
Destiny and so forth and so the question are its mission is still is still guiding things and you're essentially
00:25:43
investing in that mission and you recorded you recruited people you know on that mission and so um you know I
00:25:50
think that the you know um you know I think like I said sour grapes uh okay so let's get into some
00:25:58
political stuff first I want to uh get the IP question then I want to talk about lenina con so how do you think
00:26:05
about IP in this you know briefly in this new world open Ai and New York Times can't come to terms New York Times
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caught them red-handed cookie jar according to their lawsuit having indexed a ton of their content it's
00:26:17
pretty crystal clear that their content's behind a pay wall and that's how they make money I also subscribe to
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chat GPT I give them 20 bucks a month maybe 30 bucks a month for every employee in my firm and and I get New
00:26:29
York Times content from there all the time I will ask it what does the wire cutter think is the best choice in chat
00:26:34
GPT I get that and then I get the answer and I don't need my New York Times subscription I don't visit the New York
00:26:39
Times anymore um feels pretty clearcut to me but how do you think about IP should uh an llm be able to ingest
00:26:48
whatever they please or should they be required to get permission in advance and pay a royalty to content creators
00:26:55
Reed Hoffman huh well as a content creator too look I think I think that it tends to be a
00:27:04
little bit of a look we do want content creators to benefit economically from the work it's
00:27:10
part of the reason why we have copyright it's part of the reason why we have payrolls you know other kinds of things
00:27:14
that I think are are very important and I think it's it's a complicated thing that needs to be sorted out now that
00:27:19
being said I think we also want to say that we can train these models like you know like training is like reading and
00:27:26
like reading things is you know like when something's available to be read and you've engage in the right economic
00:27:32
thing for reading it I think that's a kind of a reasonable fair use thing now maybe we update the terms of service
00:27:38
maybe we update you know copyright law or other things to say okay that now changes you know I think we don't want
00:27:43
to forbid changes in the future you know um this is like one of the problems we get with it blocks Innovation when we do
00:27:50
that it blocks Innovation and you know kind of Hollywood it blocks Innovation and music it blocks Innovation so you
00:27:55
want to allow some new chain you know changing landscape and I think this is a changing landscape that arguably is
00:28:02
reading so I think that like both of those things are true in terms of what do we what do we want to sort through I
00:28:09
think that one of the reasons why this is kind of like you know over like when I give advice to you know various news
00:28:15
organizations and so say look don't try to hold out for money on the training side of things because you know we're
00:28:22
going to create synthetic data we're going to do all kinds of other things that are going to mean that no one's
00:28:26
particular data is really going to matter what you should be is on freshness on brand on other things and
00:28:33
we should work out ongoing sustaining economic Arrangements like that that would be my two cents you know
00:28:39
suggestion for it and I do think we want to design an ecosystem that includes that and you know when I was involved in
00:28:44
those Co conversations at open AI they they agreed with that Microsoft certainly agrees with that in terms of
00:28:50
you know how do we make sure that economics are fairly apportioned and so forth for you know what we're doing for
00:28:56
you know this phase of you know and ongoing but like you know there's a current Tech new technological wave
00:29:02
that's coming and how do you do that so you know that's a messy answer but unfortunately it's a messy subject it
00:29:07
it's pretty messy subject yeah before we move to politics I just wanted to actually ask you about inflection so is
00:29:14
it still running yeah and so what basically happened there was like some transfer payment from Microsoft and a
00:29:21
couple of the people like and then it seems like whatever that deal was a little bit seems to have been copied by
00:29:27
Google when they did this character AI thing so just trying to get a sense from you are these deals to structurally
00:29:33
avoid FDC scrutiny in terms of the building blocks of it or how how did you think about it and what is the what is
00:29:40
the pattern and the trend on these things well the thing I think this happened was you know very early days
00:29:46
you had things like you know we're doing an agent and if Pi had launched before J
00:29:50
gbt it'd probably be in a different circumstance but like chat gbt got the oh my God high is the inflection AI the
00:29:58
inflation agent yeah and so so by the time that Pi we got the the the trend right and the and the interest of the
00:30:05
market right but we got the timing you know too late happens with startups so it's like okay we need to Pivot we need
00:30:11
to Pivot from a b Toc model to a B2B and we have a unique model but let's sell that to other people who already have
00:30:17
audiences because we're not going to be able to easily grow our audience and then you know once we had that as a
00:30:21
conversation there were employees are like well we want to do the direct agent thing and that's what we want to do and
00:30:26
maybe we'll go somewhere in order to do that and we're like okay how do we fund this and how do we make that work and
00:30:30
how do we make it work for investors and we said hey there's a deal structure that could work which is you know with a
00:30:36
you know kind of outside party you can get paid enough in a non-exclusive IP license and an ability to selectively
00:30:43
hire folks and then you can dividend some of that out to investors so investors you know get back a you know
00:30:49
kind of a 1x um and then kind of a a an ongoing position so you know as investors it's great to have a kind of
00:30:56
optionality on its B2B business um in order to play that out and this is a structure that works for everybody in
00:31:02
this pivot to be to be and that's essentially the the the structure that we did I see great pivot chth into Lena
00:31:10
Khan I think one of the things that is quite Paradox paradoxical about your relationship with David saak is you both
00:31:17
agree on something in politics which is Lena Khan and her Concepts around future
00:31:23
competition and maybe how she's running uh this issue for the United States is leading to basically a freeze on the
00:31:32
market we're seeing weird deal structures like some of the ones we're talking about here that could have just
00:31:37
been Acquisitions and I'm curious your thoughts on what she you know this sort of breakup of Google now we're seeing
00:31:47
that emerge at the same time that they're facing the biggest existential crisis of their career which is language
00:31:54
models competing with them and me I would say half of my Google Searchers have already moved to you know uh you
00:32:01
know chat GPT like services so what's your take on Lena Khan's approach to m&a and what impact if it's continued and
00:32:10
sustained will that have on Capital allocation because I I don't know what happened to the single and double m&a
00:32:16
Market but it seems to be completely gone everything from Adobe and figma to other uh mergers that could be happening
00:32:24
are essentially Frozen so what's your take so it was funny because I kind of made
00:32:30
an off-the-cuff you know kind of remark about Lena Khan which turned into a whole news cycle I I saw you on CNN
00:32:36
where they were like are you telling Kamala and Biden what they have to do and I'm like no because I don't believe
00:32:42
in that kind of Corruption of of of Politics the only way she's gonna learn about it is either she asked me or she
00:32:47
watched this television show um and um and so so she's done a good job on the price cartel she did a good job on the
00:32:55
anti competes both of which I think are very very good for you know competitive markets the problem is I think she has a
00:33:00
misunderstanding of these uh large tech companies and um for example on the m&a thing you know her theory is you got to
00:33:09
prevent the aggregation of power so you got to you got to fight every acquisition of note and the problem of
00:33:15
course is that actually quells venture capital investment because it's like okay um part of the the returns is if
00:33:22
I'm going to invest in something that might be competing with you know one or more of the large tech companies I need
00:33:29
to have acquisition exits as part of being able to to fund enough Capital to really make that acquisition you know
00:33:36
that that that that investment possibly work because if it doesn't work I want to be able to at least return recover my
00:33:41
Capital by an investment so the right way to look at it is is there competition amongst the top tech
00:33:47
companies because you know if one of them is like squashing all the other ones that's a problem if we're if we're
00:33:53
five large tech companies heading to three then I'm much more sympathetic to our point of view but we're actually
00:33:57
five heading to 10 right or five to seven heading to 12 because like Nvidia is now in the mix and and others I think
00:34:04
coming Mi is you now over 500 billion yeah so yes and so you have this ability so the thing is is they're competing on
00:34:12
the Acquisitions just like they're competing in the Mar in the marketplace and if you're trying to quell the whole
00:34:17
thing because your theory is like like they should just you know the startup should just be able to grow up to
00:34:22
compete that actually means that those will never get the capital that they need in order to do that which means
00:34:28
you're actually having the opposite of your intent right what you're doing is you're actually in fact making there be
00:34:34
less competition because you know capitalists can't say if I'm going to put a 100 million 500 million a billion
00:34:40
dollars into this company I at least have a chance of getting my Capital back or I can possibly create a competitor
00:34:46
and that's that's the reason I was speaking out against it as an expert um was like interesting you I saw you I
00:34:53
think it was a jake taper Tapper who uh you kind of grilled I thought you did an
00:34:58
exceptional job of just saying listen I made a donation this is how I feel about
00:35:01
it but obviously she's going to do what she wants to do and and that's just how politics works so uh I thought that was
00:35:08
actually pretty well done and I actually appreciate you fighting for more m&a because it would be great for the
00:35:13
industry Sak you wna you want to throw up a political topic here or you want me to no just just to stick on Lena Khan
00:35:20
for a second so I I agree that her approach has been uh overly Broad and has had a chilling effect on m&a and so
00:35:28
Jal like you said we've lost those base hit Acquisitions that I think are important to the Venture Capital Market
00:35:34
that help new stars get funded I mean if the Returns on risk Capital go down there's going to be less of it that
00:35:41
me'll be less be less inovation yeah so I agree with Reed on that the area where
00:35:45
I'm not sure we agree is and and where I do agree with Lena Khan is I do think the big tech companies have too much
00:35:51
power I do think that they are monopolies or have monopolies and I do think they need to be controlled I just
00:35:58
think that you know I wouldn't prevent them from doing any m&a whatsoever I'm curious if Reed like agrees with that
00:36:05
that the big tech companies have too much power or agrees with Lena Khan on that and I guess specifically do you
00:36:11
think any big tech company should be broken up if so which ones I mean I I would actually entertain that idea of of
00:36:18
of deong glomera or breaking up some of these big tech companies do you do you think do you agree that big Tech has too
00:36:23
much power or not um I think it's TBD um but the reason I'd say look take the opposite point of view we would say
00:36:33
no uh the thesis for no is that they are very strong American comp companies that
00:36:40
get you know in the most cases over half the revenue from overseas they create uh technology
00:36:48
platforms that beneficially differentiate the US um versus you know many other uh
00:36:55
countries in kind of global circumstances like the inter and other kinds of things um I think that they are
00:37:00
competing ferociously with each other I mean uh you know Jason just mentioned that you know it's kind of like look
00:37:06
we've already got like chat GPT competing with Google search and other kinds of things and I think it's
00:37:12
competitive pressure right this is I think what capitalism is about is competitive pressure that essentially
00:37:17
creates the thing and that's the reason why like if it's if if we were shrinking
00:37:21
like it was Google Uber Alis or I actually frankly think that the you know Everyone likes to talk about you know
00:37:27
Google you like I think the the prime candidate is likely to be and I'm speaking as an individual and as a
00:37:32
venture capitalist here is apple with the app store right okay so wait so so that brings up an interesting point one
00:37:38
of the things we've talked about in this pod is that we shouldn't shut down m&a but the the uh FTC should limit
00:37:45
anti-competitive tactics by these big tech companies yep Apple really good example because they drive everything
00:37:53
through the App Store you're not allowed to do side loading they want to take what is it 30% piece of any sales you're
00:38:01
not even allowed to have a link inside an application to drive except to the website yeah yeah Europe up now you can
00:38:09
would you at least want to crack down on those anti-competitive tactics yeah no for sure and look especially when is you
00:38:15
know we all know it's nonsense it's like look you could just give the consumers the option to to to allow side loading
00:38:22
you could just say it's technically very simple to do and you could say look uh we we don't want you to Sid load because
00:38:29
we view it to be Safety and Security but we're giving you the option right fine give people the option right Reed were
00:38:39
you surprised that then the first Target where there was like some successful antitrust push back was against Google
00:38:45
versus Apple and then second do you think that there's a chance like a meaningful chance that the government
00:38:52
tries to break Google up or do you think it looks something maybe more similar to
00:38:57
what happened to Microsoft so I think in mandating breakups you know like I think is a um
00:39:06
look I think we should operate through competitive networks and competitive ecosystems I think it's part of what
00:39:10
smart about capitalism and I think mandating breakups is only when essentially capitalism is failing uh on
00:39:16
specific things you want to do the the least the least you can to get back to competitive networks in terms of how
00:39:23
you're operating and so you know when you say hey look I iOS has this kind of Monopoly and you say there's no side
00:39:29
loading you have to use app store you have to use the payment mechanism you know etc etc it's like well that quells
00:39:34
a ton of startup Innovation we all know this as investors because we look at anyone who's perspectively doing a
00:39:40
business like this and say no chance it's you know you're you're not going to succeed and so so then you say well
00:39:46
what's the least thing that we can do right and you know a classic antitrust like well let's break off the App Store
00:39:52
from Apple as well right unclear that that would really fully work you know that's like socialism mandating how the
00:39:59
thing should work let's try to get it so that we allow competition uh to determine these things and like for
00:40:04
example saying hey like you have to allow consumers the option of side loing you have to allow consumers the option
00:40:11
of installing an alternative app store right like that kind of stuff I think you know what's the minimal stuff I
00:40:16
think that's the kind of intervention we want to have because I think there's all
00:40:20
kinds of benefits that come from why but why do you think that the the case against Apple has made less progress
00:40:26
than the case against Google uh I think it's kind of it's less politically easy right like it's kind of
00:40:32
like everybody loves their iOS phone and you know there's there's there's less of
00:40:37
a blue and red you know kind of combo tackle um where you know the the blue Fe people are like hate big companies less
00:40:48
offensive basically you're saying yeah yes more stylish they're they're prettier I I kind of like your approach
00:40:54
though with the app store if you were to think of least harm to the ecosystem epic games has their own App Store for
00:41:00
games they charge 88% they give they give I'm sorry they give developers 88% they only take 12 and forcing Apple to
00:41:09
allow you know a startup to do an app store would solve the entire problem and it seems like that's where it's going to
00:41:15
go and all five of us would invest instantly in an App Store that would say 0% take rate and all Advertising based
00:41:23
what a great idea that would be yeah GRE I have a question a few weeks ago you said something to
00:41:31
the effect very publicly that you had had a one-h hour or multi-hour lunch with Biden and he just seemed like super
00:41:37
on his game and then he was kind of dumped was that just a moment in time where he was really great with you or
00:41:47
how do you reconcile that with Pelosi and all of these other folks and what happened to
00:41:53
Biden well like most of us um I was pretty dismayed by the debate performance um because when I talk to
00:42:02
him like detailed thoughtful analysis with no notes on Gaza questions about AI you know and what kinds of things you
00:42:10
know what did I think about what the progress you know the thing they were doing with the volunteer commitments the
00:42:15
executive order and you know what kinds of things should happen in the future and all that kind of stuff being on the
00:42:19
game a little slower right than than you know a a 50-year-old would be but but you know like cogent and totally worth
00:42:28
and then you kind of uh looked at the debate thing oh my gosh this is this is this is a disaster um and so um it was
00:42:38
like look is the debate a one-off thing is it did you were you ill you know like
00:42:42
trying to reconcile the two and you know spent a little bit of time trying to figure that out uh to to what was going
00:42:48
on because it was it was the first time I'd seen something like that and you know um you know I don't you know I'm
00:42:56
not enough of a DC Insider to know exactly what the set of conclusions were other than I you know I plotted you know
00:43:03
Biden for having the kind of Integrity go look I'm maybe I'm Ill maybe I'm old maybe I'm slower but you know the it's
00:43:10
about the country more than it's about me because I'm you know not um you know it's it's it's important to be about the
00:43:16
country not about yourself I'll I'll step aside and ultimately his decision there's nothing that anyone could force
00:43:21
Pelosi couldn't force it anyone else it's ultimately his decision he came to that decision so um you know
00:43:27
do you think that they should have run an Open Primary after that and would kamla have won an Open
00:43:34
Primary well it's hard to know I mean I think they were definitely leaning towards an Open Primary and then all the
00:43:39
people who would be the most natural contenders all endorsed Kamala so um and by the way you say what kind of
00:43:45
democratic process it was like well there was a democratic process that picked the Biden Harris ticket which
00:43:49
turned into the Harris Walt's ticket and so that's not anti-democratic but I think if you look at the sequence of
00:43:55
events it was kind of like well you know we're we're going to sort out you know what we're going to do and then you know
00:44:01
all of the key folks you know Shapiro and and Whitmer and every else all endorsed K I was like okay let's just
00:44:08
let's get back to you know kind of the the choice of two candidates and so I you know do you feel the voters felt
00:44:16
Reed do you think the voters felt left out um the Democratic um voters well I mean from Posta seems not
00:44:26
right with the level of kind of energy and all the rest it seems that that that um um that the uh that you know like the
00:44:37
with the pure polling and kind of level energy and kind of what's going on they're happy with what they got yeah
00:44:42
they're happy with what they got I would have liked to have that speedrun do you
00:44:44
think it sets a bad precedent that there were these back room conversations obviously the staff of Whitmer Moore
00:44:55
Shapiro their office speaks with Democratic party leadership speak with big donors and there was effectively a
00:45:01
coalescing that took place over a period of time that said we should all stand behind and endorse one person instead of
00:45:07
infighting and creating a split in the party and does that not set a bad precedent that there is a small group of
00:45:14
people in either party that in a primary process effectively get to nominate their candidate get their candidate to
00:45:21
become the nominee and therefore there's only two people for the country to choose from and as we have seen recently
00:45:27
with RFK Jr and the lawsuits against him in being on the ballot in different states it makes it very difficult maybe
00:45:33
for the people to have their choice and is that a bad way for democracy to work and I just love your philosophical view
00:45:39
on this on like what's the best way for democracy in the United States to work so for the president for the president
00:45:47
yes we do live in a republic all right and there there is various like you know some people have much more influence
00:45:53
than others um whether it's media platforms whether whether it's um you know economics and ability to spend
00:46:00
whether it's you know a history and a brand and and and other things and so you know this melee and and and kind of
00:46:08
you know whole integration set of things now ultimately you know voters are going
00:46:13
to decide in November right so you know people do have a you know and I think that that that staying to our Democratic
00:46:20
process is what's really key like you know people going to the polls you know I think we should want to live in a
00:46:25
country where everyone does you know everyone who is who is legally allowed to vote does vote um and I think that
00:46:32
that's you know ultimately good thing now you know are there things that I would like to change sure I'd like to
00:46:37
change I'd like to have rank Choice voting you know I'd like to have open primaries there there's a set of things
00:46:42
like like actually my principal frustration in all of this stuff is you know what's what's one of the
00:46:47
fundamental things the two parties agree on that that that that shouldn't be is that there should be only two parties
00:46:55
right and I think that's uh I think that's something that you you need to fix and you can't fix it unfortunately I
00:47:01
think with independent candidates because because the whole system is really set up uh for you know kind of
00:47:06
two parties and independent candidates are almost always spoilers one way or the other I mean like on the RFK stuff I
00:47:12
understand there was a bunch of Democrats who were trying to you know prevent him from getting on the ballot I
00:47:17
actually prefer him on the ballot because I actually think his his his antiva stance you know really fit very
00:47:23
well with with Trump and so I think he was do you want to address that Reed because I think there was a rumor that
00:47:29
you were funding some of these lawsuits to keep him off the ballot or whatever like have you spent any money to try to
00:47:36
impact RFK one way or the other I wouldn't be surprised if we look at all the money that goes to all the different
00:47:43
organizations if organization X kind of had some kind of ballot thing my in my voice and instruction was always like no
00:47:51
no no no don't do that that's anti-democratic but you know you can't control everything just like you invest
00:47:56
in a company and Co sometimes the dumbass [ __ ] that you can't do anything about because you give you give money
00:48:02
you give money to to folks that then execute their own strategies so you can't control on the ground tactics
00:48:08
right yeah so there's there's that happens that you're like no don't do that right well okay that's a good um
00:48:14
that's a good segue because let's talk about the five cases against Trump there are five lawsuits hold on jcal I don't
00:48:22
can we just stay on this top for a second I think this okay so in in Michigan Wisconsin you had Democratic
00:48:29
groups they fought RFK Jr's bid to get on the ballot okay they failed now he wants to get off the ballot but they
00:48:37
won't take him off now that they think that his presence hurts Trump and at the same time Michigan's trying to remove
00:48:44
Cornell West and Wisconsin's trying to remove Jill Stein so I'm curious do you think there's any principle on display
00:48:51
here besides naked partisan hackery I mean basically the Democrats fought having third parties on the ballot when
00:49:00
they thought it would hurt Biden and now they want to keep them on the ballot when they think it's going to hurt Trump
00:49:08
except for those third party candidates who they still think will hurt Harris so
00:49:12
what is there any principle here or is this just partisan hacker I I think it's you know I I frankly you know think that
00:49:19
everyone who follows the legal process to get on the ballot should be on the ballot and you know we should follow the
00:49:24
legal process I'm very much of a legal process kind of person what I'm opposed to is like you know calling
00:49:30
raffensberger and asking for 11,000 votes right which is not legal right so so like yeah sure is that is that bad
00:49:38
and and do I advocate against it the answer is absolutely yes um but it's you know follow the legal process if the
00:49:45
secretary of state of Colorado throws Trump off the ballot for example is that legal process if it's then overruled by
00:49:51
the Supreme Court or could we just say substantively that states shouldn't be removing candidates from the ballot
00:49:57
that's anti-democratic uh well but you want them to remove RFK from the ballot no
00:50:04
that's not what I saw I okay I'm just trying to figure out no the the rule is that well first of all I don't think
00:50:10
that Democratic groups should be suing RFK to keep him off the ballot and that's what he said is that Democratic
00:50:17
groups were suing to keep him off the ballot and they were trying to exhaust his resources so he couldn't mount an
00:50:21
effective campaign and some of those groups you funded right so maybe you didn't know what they were doing but in
00:50:27
any event I consider that to be anti-democratic RFK is now trying to remove his name from the ballot I think
00:50:32
as a candidate you're allowed to do that and those same groups that once fought to keep him off the ballot are trying to
00:50:39
keep his name on the ballot because now they perceive yeah because now they perceive the political calculation to be
00:50:44
a little different so my so I don't see any of this as being Democratic this to me is just partisan hackery isn't it so
00:50:52
can't youe that look yes fundamentally from a Viewpoint of like like for example my my direct actions and yes
00:50:59
there was you fund a whole bunch of different groups and you have different groups doing different things but you
00:51:04
funded them to do this thing that you were thinking of and things happen it's just like companies you know my thing
00:51:10
was actually in fact making people aware of of rfk's antix you know statement his
00:51:16
anti-science stuff because I thought that would be relevant in the polls in November that that was the the actual
00:51:23
strategy that that I believe and I think that would differ entially you know hit
00:51:28
Trump more and so therefore would be a spoiler right as these independ are I I have no problem with drawing attention
00:51:35
to issues but I I do think fundamentally it's anti-democratic to sue third party
00:51:39
candidates to the point where they can't be on the ballot okay let me ask you directly Cornell West um there's an
00:51:46
effort right now to remove Cornell West from the ballot in Michigan do you support that or would you oppose that I
00:51:53
mean is that democracy but by default I would oppose it I don't know any of the details okay fair enough Reed I have a I
00:52:00
have a question for you it's more of a statement actually maybe I just left to get your
00:52:05
reaction one of the most divisive issues that we have right now is people's position on October 7th Israel
00:52:15
Palestine there is a sense that there's a growing kind of like virent strain of anti-Semitism in America a lot of people
00:52:24
point to the extreme left as as where that's really gestating there was thoughts that Josh
00:52:31
airo would have been an exceptional candidate but one of the large reasons why he was not really meaningfully
00:52:37
considered was his religion I just want you to comment on the broad issue and whether you see it in the Democratic
00:52:43
party whether you see it in the Republican Party whether you see it at all just give us a sense of where we
00:52:48
stand culturally on this issue well so like I know Josh airo I think he's great um you know I've had
00:52:56
I've broken bread with him um and you know he was meaningfully considered um you know I think that the um you know I
00:53:05
think we should be so lucky that he would you know run for presidency someday uh some year um you know I
00:53:12
actually didn't know Waltz at all and and and you know was initially kind of surprised because you know I was like Oh
00:53:20
I thought I was probably going to be Shapiro and I was like well you know I think it was you know probably a close
00:53:24
call down to those two and and it looks like you know you know in making decisions I think uh you know Harris you
00:53:31
know made a good decision with Waltz so you know I think it's a um you know now on the on the anti-Semitism topic I do
00:53:39
worry that you know broadly um we're seeing you know kind of more rise of anti-Semitism and that's extremely
00:53:50
important to fight um you know because I think and I think there are people in in
00:53:55
the you know it's it's a weirdly like like uh there's some lefties who are doing it and there's some righties who
00:54:01
are doing it's both a blue and a red issue in different different shape and I think it's very important that we you
00:54:07
know we stand against that uh as a country and so um you know I've been uh you know kind of mostly just trying to
00:54:15
say hey look we gota we got to be anti anti-racism anti-Semitism and also anti-genocide and we got to figure that
00:54:22
out what do you think of kamala's uh handling of that issue in her speech she basically seemed to I don't know say
00:54:30
both sides it but she said hey you can uh believe that the people of Gaza should be treated more humanely and that
00:54:36
uh you know Israel has a right to defend herself what do you think of her handling I think that's rational right
00:54:41
like you should be anti- genocide both of Palestinians and of Jews right and and like like it's obviously a very very
00:54:50
thorny topic yes right so um so I think you know saying that I'm going to try to
00:54:55
protect civilians both sides anti genocide I think that's a human Caring Place to be looking out for people Reed
00:55:03
do you think that generally speaking Marxist socialist principles are taking a firmer hold on the the the Democratic
00:55:11
party and kind of those principles are starting to Showcase not just in the cultural phenomena that that chamath is
00:55:18
referencing but also in some of the policymaking that's going on and um concepts of
00:55:25
equity rooted in concepts of social justice ultimately rooted in Marxist principles emerging from the Industrial
00:55:32
Revolution what about price fix so so as an example the price gouging you know price caps on food
00:55:39
proposal the concept of a wealth tax not necessarily the unrealized capital gains
00:55:43
tax but separately a tax on wealth all of these concepts of the degradation of power structure through policy and in
00:55:51
part some have argued that the anti-Semitism arises from these principles and that the Jews are
00:55:57
considered a privileged and Powerful uh cultural class is that is that not being
00:56:03
observed you not do you not think that there's some tendencies that are emerging in the Democratic party and may
00:56:08
be influenced by a louder far-left and that far-left is becoming more loud and and better represented in the party look
00:56:15
I think we should speak out against both the far left and the far right um I think it's important to do both and so
00:56:22
you know since you know uh I'm I'm I I'm playing the Democrat here on this conversation I'll ask you guys to play
00:56:29
the the the or especially Sachs play the Republican and and speak out against the
00:56:35
the far right too um but the the the short answer is yes there are amongst the extreme left that's not everybody in
00:56:42
the Democratic party but the extreme left there is um some like you know misunderstandings about you know why
00:56:49
it's important to to defend you know kind of anti- genocides like from the river to the Seas like yeah that's a
00:56:54
genocidal statement don't use that one right that understand what language you're
00:56:59
using and and to be like look the you know we've had a great genocidal moment with you know World War II and we're
00:57:06
still trying to recover from it um two you know questions around like like what I think is a a a a foolish wealth tax
00:57:14
even though it's by the way narrow to like 80% and then on like the the price gouging stuff um you know one of the
00:57:21
things as I started scratching at it you know was interesting I think this week Kroger said yes we did actually
00:57:25
artificial raise prices to profit from the pandemic you know and yeah you should stop price gouging it's not quite
00:57:32
the same thing as price capping and apparently there's laws that affect even in Florida right or in Texas uh where
00:57:39
some of you know uh you guys are living so like it's kind of um you know it's like okay I need to understand this
00:57:46
issue in more depth but I don't think it's as simplistic as the political headlines are having it well but the
00:57:52
reason why Comm Harris proposed the price fixing proposal price G whatever you want to call it was in response to
00:57:58
inflation in other words we've had 20% erosion and purchasing power over the last four years Harris needs a response
00:58:04
to that so she came forward with this new economic proposal so it's in that context this came up this wasn't some
00:58:10
proposal by the far left of the party unless you consider K Harris to be far left I actually do but okay fair enough
00:58:18
but my point is just this is her proposal and it's in response to inflation I mean you don't you
00:58:24
understand what causes inflation right it's like the government printing too much money it's not it's not greedy
00:58:29
corporations raising their prices too much I mean do you agree with that look I agree that you have to have good
00:58:34
monetary policy and so I think we we probably agree on that and I think some printing of money is part of the normal
00:58:40
functioning economy but too much is is bad and I don't think look I think Price look part of the reason why we just
00:58:47
talked about antitrust stuff earlier you do have to look at places where there's
00:58:52
a there's a possibility of kind of commanding stuff from your you're a privileged position and like
00:58:58
you know the like I want we all agree we all agree that monopolies have to be controlled no no no debate there but
00:59:03
that's not what's caused the inflation right because we've had inflation of Commodities not just Monopoly products
00:59:08
but Commodities like just food Staples eggs you know chicken stuff like that driven driven by Fuel and labor and all
00:59:17
the other inflationary you know underpinnings of those markets and I think we tried to highlight that I don't
00:59:22
know if you saw Elizabeth Warren's interview on CNBC where she got taken apart she made some claims about profiteering
00:59:28
by Craft Hind and the CNBC anchor has pointed out you actually incorrect craft hin has seen a reduction in profit over
00:59:35
this period of time and so like there were factual inaccuracies in these belief systems but you know for me it
00:59:41
feels a lot like the government setting prices in free markets is one of those steps towards socialist principles that
00:59:48
worry me the most yeah and look I generally speaking as I was saying earlier I'm like like make sure the
00:59:55
network sets sorts it out versus you know centralized control totally totally so so it's kind of like you have to look
01:00:02
at is there a place where you're like going okay that's the reason I like focused her words were price gouging and
01:00:07
if you're focused on the kind of gouging side of it is like there might be a marketting efficiency that you're
01:00:12
essentially correcting then that's I think the same kind of thing we were talking about with like the FTC and the
01:00:18
Apple App Store and so forth if it's like I'm just going to set a fixed price on eggs right that's a bad idea and by
01:00:25
the way there's there bad ideas like the wealth tax thing that I that I disagree
01:00:29
with her her economic thing also had housing which I think is a you know a good you know kind of thing to kind of
01:00:34
lower cost for Americans and you know kind of make that kind of uh stable work like I think she's she's been good on
01:00:42
immigration um I think this the The Langford Cinema bill which was from you know the the the Republican side was
01:00:50
something they were fully prepared to endorse and you know Trump killed it because he wanted to campaign on it it's
01:00:55
like look we care about the actual running in the country and so you look I think there's a bunch of good things but
01:01:00
if you said do I defend price capping the answer is not as an independent principle by itself and by the way are
01:01:06
there people lefties like you know a lot of what Elizabeth Warren says about capitalism I disagree with right I mean
01:01:13
I could disagree with you on the border I think you know kamla Harris used to be
01:01:16
considered the borders are that's gotten scrubbed I don't think she's done a great job on that but whatever that I
01:01:21
want to go back to issues that affect Silicon Valley 25% unrealized gains tax uh it seems like most of Silicon Valley
01:01:28
almost all of it is either disagrees with this or is up in arms about this I think jcal you would you said that this
01:01:34
is disqualify line in the S it's disqualifying for me for sure yeah so absolutely I mean do you agree that a
01:01:40
large unrealized gains tax 25% would be a disaster for Silicon Valley and the whole startup ecosystem or I mean how do
01:01:47
you come down on that well as I understand it uh on that tax as it's proposed is you have to have um 80% % of
01:01:56
your net worth that's right liquid yeah if 80% or more is illiquid then no you get to defer the
01:02:03
tax but there's a penalty yeah you get to defer the tax there's a penalty that's right look I think it's
01:02:08
definitely a quelling impact and it's definitely stupid and definitely shouldn't happen okay you know so we get
01:02:15
your I think we got your position on it it's stupid yeah we all that but then but then why isn't it dis why isn't it
01:02:23
disqualifying the way that jcal says are we just supposed to hope that Comm doesn't do what she is saying she going
01:02:29
to do I'll tell you why I think that both the Republicans and the Democrats have realized that there's actually very
01:02:37
little difference on a lot of the major things that they actually talk about so what they're both being forced to do is
01:02:45
realize that because the centrality of a bunch of the things they say are the same they each have to go to their
01:02:51
flanks to get the N plus one vote and so comma goes to the left and spouts all this stuff that seems Marxist or
01:03:00
socialist or communist because she has to get those people to vote for her ultimately I think what ends up
01:03:07
happening is most of the stuff in the middle has a decent chance of happening the stuff at the fringes I think they
01:03:13
get put up Sachs almost as like a sacrificial lamb a good example I think is like all of the stuff that's
01:03:19
happening with the student loan reform a half a trillion dollar plan it gets shot
01:03:24
down by the Supreme Court this new plan another hundred billion dollar not even being heard yet by the Supreme Court so
01:03:31
I think they know this I mean it's not like the Biden Administration is dumb the Trump Administration is not dumb
01:03:36
either so I think what they're doing 10 million people would be an example on the right and taking away a woman's
01:03:41
right to choose would be the other one yeah and by the way Trump has said you keep bringing that up but Trump has said
01:03:47
that he would veto he would not support a national B oh no I'm talking about already doing he already he already
01:03:52
overturned Rie wi I'm talking about that yeah and by the way issue to the states
01:03:56
it's not outlawing abortion and by the way at the state people in Austin Texas well but
01:04:04
that's not had a ballot initiative they have not had a ballot initiative there just about everywhere there's been a
01:04:09
ballot initiative the pro-choice forces have won and besides that's a state issue now jcal not federal yeah no it's
01:04:15
a state issue and Trump succeeded in taking away a woman's right to choose in Texas but one thing by the way look in
01:04:20
the spirit of the all-in podcast I wanted to be clear about like there's there's there's stuff on the on the Dem
01:04:26
and some of their economic policy for the far-left people that you know kind of you know they're advocating for that
01:04:31
I'm opposed to you know Saks I'd love to hear from you what parts of Trump's things you're opposed to here we go well
01:04:38
look I mean I have been consistent on this pod for years that I thought that the let's call it the like extreme
01:04:46
pro-life side was not good for the Republican party and I've been opposed to it um I don't think it's what J Cal
01:04:52
says I think that overturning roie way did not abortion it basically returned the issue to the states and if you look
01:04:58
at the referenda that have happened they've pretty much all gone the pro-choice Direction so I think that the
01:05:04
overturning of Ro weight has actually allowed the country to sort of sort out that issue although it's not completely
01:05:09
sorted out but look I would not support a National Abortion I would not support redering the
01:05:16
issue I think there's a lot of issues on about you know War and Peace where I do
01:05:22
not support the you could say the establishment con strand within the party I do not support all these
01:05:28
interventions I do not support these forever Wars and there is a big debate in the party about that now one of the
01:05:35
reasons why at the end of the day I support Trump is I know this will strike some people as counterintuitive but I
01:05:44
think he is the moderate within the Republican Party he's a moderate on abortion I know Jak C you're still
01:05:49
bitter about that Supreme Court case however he's been very very clear that he will not support National Abortion
01:05:56
ban moreover he took the abortion language out of the Republican platform I think he's the moderate on um on
01:06:03
issues of of War he's he was the first Republican candidate to run opposing Bush's forever Wars so I give him credit
01:06:11
on those things on style he may not come across as a moderate but those are style
01:06:16
points I think on issues he is the moderate the the issue I have with KLA Harris is I don't think she's a moderate
01:06:23
you know so like just to take this 25% unrealized gains tax first when this issue came up we were assured well she
01:06:30
doesn't really believe that even though it was in the Democratic platform and it
01:06:34
was in the Biden Harris budget then people said well maybe it's part of her platform but it's not a priority for her
01:06:42
and we just had one of her like top economic advisers come out on I think it was CNBC defending it and her campaign
01:06:50
confirmed that she supports it okay so now the argument has become well she support it it is really part of the
01:06:57
platform she would do it if she could but she's not going to be able to do it I just don't think that's a ringing
01:07:01
endorsement of a of a candidate I don't think you want to support a candidate because they're not going to be able to
01:07:07
do what they really want to do do you think she's a moderate or do you think she's a socialist you know uh gonna take
01:07:14
the country very far left way yeah but what saaks didn't address is Trump's tariff policy which is also
01:07:21
inflationary almost equivalent to the price gouging uh you know food price C I think that they're both inflationary and
01:07:27
they're both bad policy that's my personal Point View where I thought it was going to go but anyway yeah honestly
01:07:33
I'm not I'm not sure what I what I think of that proposal um you know I guess it
01:07:37
depends on the details I'm not endorsing I'm not opposing it but but but just just back to this point that should we
01:07:43
support KLA Harris even though we oppose all the policies that her campaign says
01:07:49
she supports because it seems like that's the argument now is that Silicon Valley
01:07:54
is expected to support Harris even though she wants and her campaign is confirmed she wants a 44% capital gains
01:08:01
tax she wants a 25% unrealized gains tax these are things that I think the vast majority of silk Valley considers to be
01:08:08
disastrous for the startup ecosystem should we support her in spite of those things well and why look the information
01:08:16
did a an actual data poll as opposed to us being talking head saying we say that
01:08:21
Silicon Valley does X or Y and you know the information poll showed that There Was You Know Much broader support for
01:08:28
the Democratic ticket than the Republican ticket is that is that the thing that Ron Conway just tweeted he
01:08:33
might have I don't know if he just no that's that's different AET that's that's a that's a
01:08:40
different group that's a group to counteract you and chamath uh throwing as fundraiser for Trump was like I think
01:08:47
where that came from so so but the information a news source that that that ran a poll you know did it objectively
01:08:54
ran the whole thing to to try to answer the question came out with more folks in
01:08:58
favor of you know the Biden Harris ticket than I believe why do you think that is I think that is well because
01:09:05
because look taxes is an important issue and I think if you ask any any silon Valley business person they say look
01:09:10
lower capital gains promote long-term investment ask me that's what I would say too but you know you kind of go well
01:09:16
what actually in fact you most need for business is stability uh rule of law not
01:09:22
grifter capitalism where it's like you know give me a ability to my own nft uh you know etc etc you know that's what
01:09:30
they go we want that and by the way we can navigate a higher tax rate it'll be less fast on growth and everything else
01:09:36
but we can still invest create businesses you know etc etc but we can't do it with you know kind of a uh
01:09:43
corroding the rule of law right like you know I think both uh David both you and
01:09:49
chamath spoke out against the January 6 stuff I'm curious where you're on that now it's still top of mind for me that's
01:09:55
the reason why the kind of the rule of law thing is my red line not a tax policy well let me ask you about that
01:10:00
formally here there are five cases against Trump you have uh the Insurrection case you have the New York
01:10:06
taxes case you have the hush money case you have the EG and Carol Case uh and um
01:10:12
one am I missing there oh and the uh documents case you funded like Peter Teel funded The Gawker case uh the EG
01:10:19
Carol Case uh which Trump lost and uh just to ask you why did you choose to fund that and do you believe Trump
01:10:27
sexually assaulted Eugene Carol well it's kind of not relevant whether or not I did or not what I
01:10:34
funded was an ability to have you know kind of a woman who doesn't have power who's being threatened by a rich man
01:10:41
with a lot of money and power to try to silence her to have her day in court where 12 everyday Americans right can
01:10:48
come to a judgment and their judgment was uh that there was an assault and there was slander about the assault um
01:10:55
and they did it twice and so that was the reason I funded it and you know I think that that's important we you know
01:11:02
the laws apply more importantly to Rich and powerful people than it does to poor
01:11:07
people um that's that's the important about the the thing I love about America is a rule of law system and I think
01:11:13
that's what's most important and that's what's really fundamental that's my red line relative to kind of lines and the s
01:11:19
that we're talking about um and you know that's uh you know that's the reason why
01:11:25
the various kind of lawsuits where that seem to be that that's what's being emphasized then you know I'm I'm I'm
01:11:32
happy to support them well you I don't see how it's rule of law when you have a uh district attorney
01:11:38
Alvin brag who's elected on a promise to get Trump he then takes what are at most
01:11:45
uh a a bookkeeping misdemeanor that's past the statute of limitations that's expired and he turns into 34 felony
01:11:53
charges on a legal Theory that was never explained to the jury and then basically
01:11:59
Trump is convicted in a sham trial by a hyperarcs can then run what do you think
01:12:08
of that on The Branding on The Branding that he's a quote convicted felon so there are there are four other trials we
01:12:13
got your first one think rule of law hold on I don't think feedback I don't want to get re feedback too but mean
01:12:19
finish my point I don't think it's rule of law when Trump is prosecuted on a documents charge Biden himself is guilty
01:12:26
of he's got all these documents in his garage for decades which the the judge has thrown out and we've seen a bunch of
01:12:33
these lawfare cases where Trump has ultimately prevailed the judge has thr it out or he's went on appeal so I don't
01:12:41
that seems to me like abuse of the legal system for a partisan political goal not
01:12:45
rule of law okay so Reed there's four other cases two of them Trump's been convicted in two of them are outstanding
01:12:51
what's your take on the four cases you've heard Sax's take so what's the two that he's been convicted J Cal
01:12:57
what's the other one besides the Alvin there's three there Alvin brag was convicted uh and then the um Trump
01:13:04
organization with the CFO uh committing tax fraud he was convicted in that one as well or the Trump organization was
01:13:11
convicted and people say that's law fair by Laticia James so guilty guilty guilty
01:13:15
and those three of five so what's your take on the four that we haven't discussed you had and heard your opinion
01:13:20
on Huffman so look I think it's you know it's definitely possible to have some versions of laware although I think most
01:13:29
people use the term when it's the legal process and law enforcement that they don't like um you know I think that in
01:13:36
the brag case you had you know uh you know indictment and 12 jurors there's jurors I think as I recall one of the
01:13:44
jurors said he got uh that juror got their principal news from TR truth social it was a unanimous conviction um
01:13:52
I think that you know you you have Vice president uh Pence you know comes out and says you know Trump asked me to
01:14:00
overturn the election illegally right that's your own vice president so I don't think that that kind of suggests
01:14:06
that there's this just rampant political persecution that there's a lot of fire where there's all this smoke doesn't
01:14:12
mean that every single thing uh you know kind of Democrats are trying to put Trump in jail for 700 years these cases
01:14:19
are still outstanding they want to put him in jail Reed do you think Trump should go to jail uh I think if he broke
01:14:25
laws that say he should go to jail I think the laws apply to powerful people as much as they apply to Everyday People
01:14:31
right so I think that's why were these cases why did they wait for two years on these cases so they could bring them in
01:14:37
an election year actually I don't think if you look at the like look speaking factually Trump's lawyers are always
01:14:44
trying to delay the stuff right I think they were trying to follow every legal process and Trump's lawyers keep asking
01:14:48
for want to campaign this year instead of being stuck in a courtroom look after January 6 this was this was last year
01:14:53
and the year before asking for deferral setting out trial times like all of the stuff was from his side trying to delay
01:15:01
it if it got delayed into this year that's a bad judgment on his his part Jack Smith just filed new charges new
01:15:08
charges and all this stems from January 6 in the wake of January 6 mayor Garland's justice department did an
01:15:14
analysis of whether Trump could be prosecuted for incitement whether he incited that mob and the legal memo came
01:15:21
back and they said no we don't have a case here it does not meet the legal bar for incitement then it was reported by
01:15:25
the New York Times that Biden thought that mer Garland was basically being a wimp and they need to go after Trump so
01:15:32
the hyper partisan da or prosecutor Jack Smith was hired and he came up with a novel legal theory that somehow Trump
01:15:39
had perpetrated a fraud on the American people never been seen before and since then he's been Prosecuting Trump and
01:15:44
seeking to put him in prison and and when the Supreme Court just kicked the legs out from under his case with a
01:15:49
recent decision he just refiled charges I don't understand anyone can look at this and say yeah look what happened on
01:15:55
January 6 wasn't great but the doj looked at it it wasn't Criminal but yet they've been pursuing this guy seeking
01:16:01
to put him away for the rest of his life seeking to interfere with this election
01:16:06
seeking to deprive the American people of a choice on a separate track you've got Democrats in States like Colorado
01:16:13
literally removing Trump from the ballot okay Reed your thoughts so look the first thing is um
01:16:21
January 6th I think is a red line I think it's he did incite a riot whether or not the legal for it let's let re
01:16:29
finish yeah you know I was fair enough go ahead sorry right um so I think it was the you know there was an incitement
01:16:37
of a riot um I think the the riers went in and you know killed police officers were looking to kill vice president
01:16:45
Pence you know from the court testimony courts are the best proxy that we have for finding truth and stuff it's one of
01:16:51
the reasons why you know by the way and when for example the Supreme Court says no that's great that's legal process I
01:16:57
just have to fact check that no police officers were killed where are you getting that from uh I think there were
01:17:03
there was the one died from his injuries and you know very soon after and then no
01:17:08
no no there there was one cop who had a seizure later it wasn't part of the the riot no police officers were killed as a
01:17:15
part of the riot I just have to fact check that it's just not true well and then there's the the one who committed
01:17:20
suicide too which is a question of you know I don't know how you that yeah so so anyway so you got the you know the
01:17:28
the the storming of the capital um you know he says these people are uh American Heroes he's going to Pardon
01:17:35
them he's going to hire them into his administration right and if that's not encouragement for other people doing
01:17:41
similar things you know wa he's hire January 6 riers he's gonna hire them yeah I hav heard that well we we'll
01:17:48
we'll get you the the the the the Trump speech there's all kinds of wonderful things in Trump speeches if if you
01:17:53
listen let me let me just move to one thing so Reed I think this has been an amazingly robust conversation and I
01:18:01
think you as always as long as I've known you now for 20 years have been really intellectually
01:18:07
honest I want to ask you a favor which is can you stay for 10 extra minutes and talk with us to Bobby Kennedy and the
01:18:14
reason I want you to do that is I think that there is a bunch of misinformation I asked you about these things I think
01:18:20
it's important to hear maybe from Bobby and just for him to know what you because I do think it's important to
01:18:26
hear from the horse's mouth can you just give us like 5 10 minutes so that we can
01:18:29
do that because I think it would be an important thing to do so when is that no just right now just we're gonna yeah
01:18:35
we're rolling into an interview with last it's just last minute RFK Jr who's on vacation said that he would
01:18:43
talk to us about what it was like to kind of withdraw and all this sort of stuff and it got so we booked it right
01:18:48
after you but he's in the waiting room I'm fine to do it I mean it's totally your choice it's one of the things I
01:18:55
like about your your all-in podcast is you know kind of like let's let's try to speak truth okay right so hey uh Bobby
01:19:04
Kennedy is here Mr Kennedy it's great to have you on the all-in podcast for a second time uh may I introduce you to uh
01:19:10
Reed Hoffman who you may know of but I don't think you two have ever met we have not pleasure to meet you likewise
01:19:19
pleasure Mr Kennedy you dropped out of the race uh perhaps you could tell us and I was quite disappointed about it I
01:19:26
really wanted to see a third party candidate getting into double digits again and I just want to commend you on
01:19:31
the effort that you put into it maybe you could tell the audience why you as a reported never Trumper joined the Trump
01:19:38
team and dropped out so Jason I you know I'm not actually I haven't actually terminated my
01:19:46
campaign I suspended it um we've taken ourselves or we're trying to take ourselves off the ballot in the in about
01:19:54
11 states so we'll remain on the ballot in 39 States um and the all red all blue
01:20:02
States will be on the ballot in the states where we felt we were going to hurt president Trump with a polling show
01:20:11
that we're we're uh getting off there mainly the Battleground stat ironically now the same people whove been trying to
01:20:20
get me off the ballot for a year or since October are now fighting to keep me on the
01:20:27
ballot in those States so that's one of the S of ironies um I you know it became
01:20:35
clear when about two months ago when the um when it it became clear that I was not going to be allowed on the debating
01:20:46
stage and I I pretty much had a shut out in the mainstream media so the mainstream media uh ABC NBC CBS CNN
01:21:00
MSNBC in 16 or 17 months I had only two live interviews um Ross perau during his
01:21:11
10-month campaign had 34 interviews and then you know all of them were very very much aligned with the
01:21:19
Democratic National Committee and so when they did mention my name which was pretty and it was
01:21:25
accompanied by a lot of defamations and pejoratives and um mischaracterizations Etc I never really had a chance to reach
01:21:36
those audiences the audiences that I was reaching I was dominating in I was beating all the candidates among
01:21:43
Independents which is now the largest demographic I was beating them among young people so your audience was
01:21:51
supporting me um the audience that were listening to long form interviews I was dominating but in the older audiences
01:22:00
which is a critical Baby Boomers people who really should have been for me because they are people who from my
01:22:08
generation who remember the Kennedy administration they were part of Camelot they also I was uh very very
01:22:17
popular with them for many years when I was the environmental Champion alone and I should have had good inroads
01:22:25
but I was never able to communicate with them because they watch they get their news from from the mainstream media and
01:22:33
if you're living in that information ecosystem you're going to have a very very low opinion of me I mean if I was
01:22:41
getting my information from those networks I wouldn't vote for myself and uh and then uh president
01:22:50
Trump you know reached out to me through this guy call meanss who a food Advocate
01:22:58
say food Advocate 3 hours after the shoot after the shooting at Butler I got a call from
01:23:07
him and he asked me if I was still interested in the specifically in the VP um uh slot
01:23:18
and I said no which I would not have taken vice president uh slot and um he said would I talk to be
01:23:31
willing to talk to the administration um to president Trump rather and at first I said
01:23:39
no and and I talked with some of my family members and uh including my kids and I
01:23:48
then sent CI means and not saying you know I'm interested in talking and and and I got a call almost immediately from
01:23:57
president Trump I spent about I don't know 30 minutes on the phone with him and we met the next day in um in
01:24:07
Minneapolis and then we met again more recently we had continuing talks with them and we met again more recently for
01:24:16
a very very intensive and long meeting at marlago with some of his family members and during those meetings during
01:24:23
the first meeting we talked about the idea of having a Unity ticket where I would remain on the
01:24:30
ballot where we would Ally ourselves on certain critical issues but we would be able to continue
01:24:39
to criticize each other on the issues and that we didn't add a line on and president Trump was very happy with that
01:24:48
Arrangement um and the issues the critical issues on which we agreed and I was really stunting to see the level of his
01:24:57
commitment to those issues was one anding there are the three issues that really got me into the presidential
01:25:04
campaign one was uh ending the war in Ukraine uh the second issue was ending the
01:25:13
censorship and the third issue and most important to me was addressing the childhood chronic disease epidemic and
01:25:22
the you know the these connected issues about soil health and the corruption in our Regulatory Agencies by usdaa and FDA
01:25:33
NIH CDC and HHS which have become sock puppets for these for the big pharmaceutical big EG big food
01:25:43
processing industries that they're supposed to be regulating um he was very very much
01:25:49
aligned on those issues and it gave us essentially a beach head um in which to construct you know this uh an alliance
01:26:00
Bobby let me ask you a question I just want to go back a little bit because I I just want to make sure I heard it
01:26:04
properly when Cali called you was it to be the VP on the Trump ticket and did you was that asked and
01:26:14
did you consider it and why did you say no to that but then said yes to this well I had no interest in being a vice
01:26:22
president if you're vice president it's a you know I've grew up in politics and vice president is a worst job in
01:26:30
Washington you have no budget you have no staff except what that your budget actually all comes through the White
01:26:36
House so if the Pres if you do something that uh offends the president he can literally you know he can take away your
01:26:44
plane he can take away your staff and he can the only thing you really have is the Naval Observatory which is the
01:26:53
official presidence to the vice president and he can essentially put you under house
01:26:58
arrest and you know I have very strong views on issues and I you know I felt like if I took that job I'd be on house
01:27:05
arrest probably on day three so I you know I um I was not I was never interested in that Reed had to run
01:27:15
but let's just thank him for appearing on the Pod and I thought good conversation and but I thought thought
01:27:22
he approached it in in good faith kudos to him for stepping into the lion's den so he was great yeah sorry Bobby keep
01:27:29
going so Bobby let me ask you a question um you are reportedly a never Trumper you there's massive Fallout you
01:27:38
cited personally for you as a resident of Malibu uh the extremely talented woman you're married to based on
01:27:47
everything I can tell maybe not a fan of trump so this is maybe causing some domestic and some local Town issues for
01:27:53
you tell me about your journey from a never Trumper all your friends are I think never trumpers to now joining with
01:28:00
Trump that's got to be a hard decision no yeah it was a very hardw wrenched decision but you know I I would my whole
01:28:07
kind of Journey was over the past uh 17 months was uh was just was kind of a series of
01:28:18
um a very very difficult uh transition you know away from the Democratic party the Democratic party
01:28:28
was you know the party my my family is one of the central pillars of the democratic party my family has been in
01:28:37
the Democratic party since 1848 since my great grandparents came over and my great-grandfather honey Fitz was the
01:28:45
first Irish Catholic mayor at Boston his contemporary Patrick Joseph Kennedy was a state senator and
01:28:52
political boss in Massachusetts it's my grandfather Joseph Kennedy was you know FDR's
01:28:59
Treasurer he was the first head of the secc he was the Ambassador uh to to uh the court of St James deeply deeply
01:29:08
immersed in Democratic Party politics all of my uncles Joe Kennedy who was a delegate to the 1940 uh
01:29:17
convention who spoke there a featured speaker and then was killed in World War II my uncle John Kennedy was first Irish
01:29:24
Catholic President of of um um of uh the United States my other uncle Ted Kennedy
01:29:33
who's one of the longest I think the second or third longest serving member of of the United States Senate is is uh
01:29:41
his name on more bills than any other senator in the United States history and then of course my father who was
01:29:47
attorney general and I sort of walk away from that party was uh you know I guess it was very very
01:29:57
difficult for me and I was actually the last person in my campaign to see that to understand the
01:30:05
necessity of that that the Democratic party was not going to allow me to uh to compete fairly that they you know they
01:30:13
had rigged the system against us in ways that were really quite extraordinary they had just walked away
01:30:20
from democracy they were cancelling primaries they had uh they had chosen their candidate and
01:30:26
it was going to be uh President Biden and they and I was really a nuisance to them and so my voice was not allow out
01:30:36
there and uh and so that was difficult and then um uh and then leaving you know I I declared independence in
01:30:48
October and then uh joining Trump president Trump was yeah that I I burnt a lot of bridges I burnt my
01:30:56
boats let me put it that way clearly clearly is definitely um a challenging thing to to go from your family being
01:31:04
the Bedrock of the democratic party and Trump being you know uh obviously seen as an existential Risk by the Democratic
01:31:12
party so what what should Americans know about the state of politics and fairness
01:31:20
in America based on what you've learned what what what do you want the American people to know about the process of
01:31:26
selecting a president well and you know I do want to say that I feel like I didn't really re leave the
01:31:34
Democratic party the Democratic party left me and left the um and left the ruins of uh uh the the infrastructure
01:31:45
that I think my uncle and father had that had made them Democrats if you went on a list of all
01:31:52
of the priorities that Robert Kennedy that John Kennedy had I would check every box you know they were antiw War
01:32:00
they were anti censorship they were they were against the corporate control of of our country
01:32:08
um the this this corrupt merger of state and corporate power that now has emerged
01:32:14
as the dominant governing model in our country um the Democratic party has changed
01:32:21
demographically uh when I grew I grew up in a Democratic party that was the party
01:32:26
of the working class in our country that was party of um small businesses that was the party of the
01:32:34
poor um in the last election President Biden got roughly half of the country voting Forum but
01:32:43
that half controlled 70% of of GDP and president Trump got about half the country voting for him and that half
01:32:53
repres represents about 30% of GDP so we've had this inversion where the Democratic party has
01:33:02
become the party of wealth of Elites um and I would say very insular Elites and the um and the Republican
01:33:13
party is now the party of the poor the working class and uh it's been you know for me to watch that I've been on the
01:33:20
front lines of watching it and um you know the values that held the Democratic party
01:33:29
together are no longer there it's held together by uh a a sense of tribalism a sense of and a great great sense of what
01:33:39
I would say orchestrated fear of Donald Trump it's the only value that really dominates any
01:33:46
discussion if I talk about censorship to a Democrat they'll say yes but Donald Trump is going to become a
01:33:55
dictator if you talk about Children's Health they'll say never mind that Donald Trump is the only thing we can
01:34:01
worry about if you talk about you know about the history of the democratic party's opposition to
01:34:08
war'll say forget all that the only thing we can focus on is Donald Trump and uh that's a very very dismaying and
01:34:18
I would say dangerous form of um orchestrated tribalism and one of the other features of the democratic party
01:34:26
is this um this need to control this mistrust of the of the pleite mistrust of the demos you know demos is a Greek
01:34:37
word for people and the Democratic party doesn't trust the people that's why they
01:34:41
have to get rid of Elections that's why they had to get me off the Bel I got um I I did something everybody said
01:34:48
all the pundits said could never be done so I got on the ballot in every state I
01:34:52
got a million people that sign their sign signatures petitioning me on the ballot and the Democratic party strategy
01:35:00
rather than to use the3 billion doar it had to amplify a message and inspire people and and talk about a vision and
01:35:08
and the virtues of its candidates instead use them money to try to get me off the ballot get Cornell off the
01:35:16
Cornell get Jill Stein to use the courts to use the the uh enforcement agencies including the Secret Service the CIA the
01:35:26
FBI to try to rig the election and it's EXA and It ultimately comes down to this
01:35:33
mistrust of the people which we're seeing now all over we're seeing the kind of two big forces
01:35:40
emerge one is a populist force and the other is a force of control of Ironclad control we saw
01:35:47
Europe has already fallen you know you saw the arrest of paval durov last week which was
01:35:55
extraordinary you know the the arrest of the the the guy who founded telegram um because he was
01:36:05
hosting uh political descent and and and you know the European commission is already openly
01:36:13
censoring content so they did not need to arrest him they can take off you know whatever they
01:36:19
want but they went through the to the trouble of actually and probably with us encouragement you know catching him when
01:36:28
he happened to land for a refueling stop in France France has this extraordinary
01:36:34
tradition of free speech that you know began with the French Revolution and then again in the 1880s they passed all
01:36:40
these incredible laws their commitment to free speech is as robust as that in the United States and yet now you know
01:36:49
and then and then two weeks before that you had this crazy European commissioner
01:36:54
jry uh Britton saying that uh ordering ordering Elan musk not interview Donald Trump a
01:37:03
former president of the United States the the nominee of of one of the two major political parties and the world is
01:37:12
not allowed to hear his point of view yeah it's extraordinary but that is what's coming to this country and you
01:37:18
can already and a Democratic party is that the party of control and it's party of not trusting the people
01:37:26
let's Bobby let's talk about something then let's assume that this election goes in the direction of now
01:37:33
your preferred Direction which is Donald Trump wins what role would you play and
01:37:40
what is your agenda what is it that you want to accomplish and explain make America healthy again in that context
01:37:48
maybe yeah I mean I it's the three issues ending censorship and that's pretty easy to do you can do it with a
01:37:56
series of executive orders ending the Ukraine war which is complex but I think can be done very very
01:38:04
quickly and uh and then you know the food issue now it's the food it's medicin it's corruption in the
01:38:11
Regulatory Agencies but would you be a secretary in that Administration would you be a special advisor there's no I
01:38:18
you know there there is no deal in terms of me getting a particular post so there's just an
01:38:28
understanding that there would be some kind of co-governance and the Trump people have already
01:38:35
demonstrated their good faith by um inviting me to be on the transition team you know as one of the co-chairs and and
01:38:44
they've done something really wonderful which is um to bring Tulsi Gabbert in who shares a lot of my views on this
01:38:53
issue as the other co-chair and I think that's a signal that they're sending that they are
01:38:59
sincere about um I'm you know making a commitment to these issues what what should parents know
01:39:07
about uh your thoughts on how to raise kids in a healthy way make America healthy again are there any vaccines
01:39:15
that you would say you would advise parents to take for their kids and how should they look at the industrial food
01:39:20
complex you know if you were sitting with us as parents you know uh just having lunch what would you tell us we
01:39:28
should do with our own kids I mean the big problem is you can't really trust the government to tell you the
01:39:34
truth the agencies are all compromised they all have very very bad uh conflicts almost all the people for example on
01:39:42
the on the food on the um food recommendation committees at FDA are people who are part of the food
01:39:53
industry and the same is true on you know the on pharmaceutical side the people are making decisions about what's
01:40:02
good for you are actually people who are making huge amounts of profit on those recommendations and so you can't really
01:40:09
trust the recommendations are um are in your best interest and you know what we know is that uh there is no
01:40:20
more profitable there's no bigger profit Center or industry in this country than
01:40:26
a sick child you know they and a sick child is a lifetime customer lifetime consumer of very very expensive
01:40:35
products and you have this alliance between the food industry and the pharmaceutical industry to keep our
01:40:42
children sick to get them addicted you know in the 70s and 80s um the the the tobacco industry was
01:40:51
under attack and the two biggest tobacco companies and out um and bought all the
01:40:58
big food companies R jrisco you're referring to you yeah and craft and you know so you had Philip Morris by Craft
01:41:07
and they took a lot of the scientist from the tobacco industry who are experts on making products
01:41:13
addictive and they put them to work on making food addictive on making Ultra processors so adding AG greed
01:41:20
inset um that make food uh uh that destroy the the the sa ability of food so that food doesn't fill you up so
01:41:29
you're always craving more um and those products many of them are products you know we have almost a
01:41:37
thousand chemicals in our foods that are banned in Europe and banned in other countries um and
01:41:45
uh and those products are are products that were have been introduced by by chemist that did not exist before and
01:41:56
the body does not handle them well well and you know we're seeing this explosion
01:42:01
chronic disease when my uncle was President 6% of Americans had chronic disease you know what the budget
01:42:08
was for chronic disease and when my uncle was President zero there wasn't any drugs for it there was no uh there
01:42:16
was no expenditures on chronic disease today it's $4.3 trillion it's five times our military budget and the people who
01:42:25
are making money are the the pharmaceutical companies the uh the insurance companies which actually you
01:42:32
would think insurance companies would want people to be well they actually make more money if they're
01:42:37
sick on the uh the hospital is the medical cartel the people we trust to make advice to us about our health are
01:42:46
actually compromise and that's the difficult part you've got to unravel that corporate capture freeberg when you
01:42:53
hear this some people might say uh this sounds like a grand conspiracy theory uh
01:42:58
but much of it rings true to I think many of us who are parents watching kids you know uh and watching the prevalence
01:43:05
of obesity watching pharmaceutical drugs to counter that and all the money that's
01:43:10
made from it and then seeing when people eat clean and they're healthy maybe there there's less there so freeberg
01:43:16
when you hear Bobby's uh position here as a scientist who sold the company to Monsanto climate.com and who's working
01:43:24
on food today what Rings true about what Bob's saying and what do you disagree with if anything yeah there there are
01:43:31
aspects of industrialized food and processed food that are bad for people and I I do agree should
01:43:37
be should be changed I don't I know a lot of people that work at the USDA a lot of people
01:43:43
that work in other government organizations that don't make a lot of money um they may or may not have worked
01:43:50
at other companies but I think that there's no economic incent for them to do harm or wrong I think that the real
01:43:56
and so I don't think that there's a constructive design on doing bad things by any individual I think that there is
01:44:02
an unfortunate circumstance where people eat bad stuff stuff that tastes better they like it more it sells better and
01:44:10
the economic incentive in capitalism is to make more of that stuff and sell more
01:44:13
of it and as a result the stuff that people like that isn't good for them they buy more of and the companies make
01:44:18
more money and so they continue to invest in selling more and more of that stuff and this goes most processed foods
01:44:24
it's terrible it's not good and so I do agree that much of this processed food industry is um uh very adverse to health
01:44:32
but I don't think that there's a grand design by individuals that are malicious and their intent and trying to do it I
01:44:37
think that there are people that are doing their job on hey this is what the market want government right yeah in the
01:44:42
government talking about in government and Private Industry you don't think people in Private Industry are trying to
01:44:46
make addicting Foods no no I think that yeah the point is like if people buy more of it they're like let's sell more
01:44:50
of it you know okay and I I you know and if that were illegal if it was illegal to say hey this sort of food product
01:44:56
should not be made but look alcohol fits the bill too right and we we keep making
01:45:00
alcohol and sugar fits the bill the more sugar Coca-Cola did a study years ago where they um they kept increasing the
01:45:07
amount of sugar in Coca colola until they maximally uh got sell through so uh some
01:45:14
kids liked 60 grams of sugar and 12 ounces of coke some kids like 30 but the perfect level was at 42 G and so that
01:45:21
study was done by the scientist that worked at Coca-Cola and then they said that's the product it sells it'll sell
01:45:26
the most and that's the incentive inside of that company that's how that company
01:45:29
operates now you could ask yourself the question is that evil is that bad we now
01:45:33
know that sugar in general is bad the executives at Coca-Cola at AB inbev at other places are trying to make
01:45:38
alcohol-free sugar-free Alternatives so there's a lot of push by these people Unilever has tried to make a big push
01:45:45
towards good food Nestle's tried to do the same they've all made these stated commitments to improve the health of the
01:45:49
food that they produce but it is quite difficult to be successful in doing that and returning money to shareholders the
01:45:55
shareholders are like where's the money so I me I think this is the key Point you're making chath I think you're clean
01:46:01
food effort and I took me a decade to unravel me eating everything in sight and lose the 40 pounds but shamat when
01:46:08
you hear you know sort of this uh back and forth between Bobby and fredberg what's your take on it in terms of and
01:46:16
and also the European lifestyle that you live for 10 weeks of the Year what's your take on what should happen here and
01:46:22
how Bobby can be successful I think what Bobby says Rings true in the way that I
01:46:26
live my life and I just see it demonstrated on my own body you're right Jason you know my wife's Italian she
01:46:32
runs an Italian company we she works Italian and American hours for 10 months out of the
01:46:39
year and for those 10 weeks we go there and we flip schedule but when I'm there I'm consuming Italian produce that isn't
01:46:46
packed in plastic I go to a a local fruit store I go to the local fish vendor and my body changes and I know that
01:46:56
because the people that see me when I get back they always comment oh did you lose weight oh do you look you look
01:47:02
thinner or this or that and what's interesting is I actually do a body composition before I leave and after
01:47:08
I've done this for seven years now and I can tell you that my weight doesn't change that much but my body composition
01:47:15
is completely different and I don't know what it is except the things that I'm putting in my body that's different and
01:47:21
so I see it and I'm running a Ab test every day you know the price what's the price of the food chamar like is it more
01:47:28
in Italy like do you pay more do you think well I've already commented on the fish is outrageous joke yeah um but but
01:47:35
there are ways to eat at a materially lower price than there is here and the access to the ultra processed food is
01:47:43
different there you can't get the stuff and when you and when you do find that stuff it doesn't have the same you know
01:47:51
glycemic and metabolic Lo on your body I'm curious what you think of you know OIC and this category of
01:47:57
drugs breaking the cycle I think you've been against them or they certainly helped me uh with half of my weight loss
01:48:05
I know sack's had a good experience as well and he's been public about it what are your thoughts on that because it
01:48:09
does seem when people take the take the glps which exist in your body that they I'm sure there's more research that
01:48:16
needs to be done they do break this habit I know anecdotally with me I don't crave the foods I craved previously and
01:48:22
it did kind of rewire my brain and how I look at Food even when I'm off of it so
01:48:27
your thoughts on those and and those potentially being a way to break the cycle yeah so and this goes to David's
01:48:34
point that you know this is we need to have cheap food and that that is kind of a an outcome that is an admirable or
01:48:43
virtuous outcome the problem is the food isn't cheap it it it's cheap on the self
01:48:49
on the Shelf but it imposes costs on the rest of us that were the externalities that were paying elsewhere so when I was
01:48:57
a kid the typical pediatrician would see one case of juvenile diabetes in his lifetime over a 40 or 50y year career
01:49:07
one case it was essentially non-existent disase today one out of every three children who walks through his office
01:49:16
door is diabetic or pre-diabetic um when I was a kid the the autism rates were between 1 and
01:49:24
1500 to 1 and 10,000 Americans and that is still true in my generation 70-year-old men and my kids generation
01:49:33
according to CDC is one out of every 34 kids some states like California it's one out of every
01:49:40
22 um 77% of Americans are out or 74% adults are obese half our kids obesity when when you know 100 years ago
01:49:54
if you were obese you could get a job in the surf circus it was so unusual so we're now and and who's
01:50:02
making profit now OIC oic's not going to you can obesity is absolutely and diabetes are absolutely treatable by
01:50:10
good food that's the cause now oamic is a good profit Center for it had for um for Pharma there's a now which
01:50:23
has been paid for by the company that makes it which is the biggest company in new Europe no
01:50:28
nordis that in in Denmark where that company is they do not recommend it it it the the uh uh the treatment of
01:50:39
diabetes the standard of care is diet and exercise but that company's entire value
01:50:47
is based upon the projections of what is going to sell in the United States and it has and that company is
01:50:54
pouring tens of millions of dollars into lobbying to pass this bill that will make Medicare pay for it for every
01:51:02
American who obese that could be 74% of people are now eligible I think it's $1,500 a week the cost of that will be
01:51:11
three trillion a year if you took three trillion a year a tiny fraction of that you could buy organic food three meals a
01:51:19
day for every human being in the United States so wouldn't that be a better expenditure of our money and you know I
01:51:29
what I would say is the you know the food producers it's not a conspiracy it's just people following perverse
01:51:36
incentives and there are conspiracies I mean when I sued um Monsanto we got emails that showed that the head of the
01:51:44
pesticide division Jess Roland for a decade at EPA was secretly working for Monsanto the entire time
01:51:53
sabotaging studies creating false science that hide the cogenic nature of Roundup so there are those kind of
01:52:02
instances throughout the federal government but mainly it says perverse incentives almost all almost close to
01:52:09
100% of our of our food agricultural subsidies go to process food I mean go to commodity agriculture which is the
01:52:18
feed stock for processed food so and then if you look at mostly mostly for mostly for
01:52:24
meat the industry controls through lobbying and through you know all these other
01:52:31
mechanisms for corporate capture controls the expenditures in the food stamp program so 70% of the food stamp
01:52:39
program goes for processed food 10% goes for sugar drinks like Coca-Cola which are just diabetes
01:52:47
machines so why are we poisoning poor kids in this country the school lunch program the
01:52:54
same thing almost 80 I think 77% of food food lunch program is terrible foods that are actually poisoning our children
01:53:02
and you know don't we you know don't we care enough about our kids to say we need you know we we want to care
01:53:10
about them we want to make sure that they're not sick they are the most precious things in our country shouldn't
01:53:17
that be the focus and you know whatever we're doing to make them so sick when I was a kid 6% of American kids had
01:53:26
chronic disease today 60% is that not an alarm is that not you know something that we should all be concerned about I
01:53:34
will I will agree on um an important Point uh you know the the the food stamp program the snap program provides food
01:53:42
stamps to support 42 million Americans 42 million people rely on food stamps it costs $20 billion dollar of federal
01:53:51
money per year and as um as Bobby said the number one product bought on the food stamp program
01:53:57
is soda canned soda and there was an important debate a few years ago about whether or not canned soda by the way
01:54:06
Bobby you and I probably agree on a lot of things there definitely a lot of things we don't agree on but like these
01:54:10
aspects I think are just no brainers uh there was a debate a few years ago about
01:54:15
whether or not canned soda should be allowed as a purchase on the food stamp program or whether it should be fresh
01:54:20
fruits and vegetables and Grains and other and ultimately there was a food lobbying
01:54:25
effort made uh that kept uh caned soda on the food stamp program and it is uh again $120 billion of annual federal
01:54:33
spend with the biggest line item going to can soda to you know feed 42 million Americans and and the the the the
01:54:40
connection is completely direct high sugar high glycemic index diabetes and other chronic health conditions arise
01:54:47
from that connection so um definitely aligned with you on the Mis incentives and the disincentives in these programs
01:54:55
that have been created and they only expand every year Bobby can you comment on when people talk about revamping the
01:55:01
food supply one of the things that sometimes is not allowed to be said is that focusing on organic food and
01:55:09
produce can exclude certain communities and so there's like this Dei filter that
01:55:15
preferring that is almost racist in some way like can you just comment on that whole vein of thinking and your thought
01:55:20
on that yeah I mean I think feeding people poisonous food is racist and by the way
01:55:27
the NAACP gets huge amounts of money um every year from the food industry it may
01:55:33
be one of the biggest I think I think Coca-Cola is the biggest um supporter V ACP so a lot of the NGS that are
01:55:41
supposed to be concerned about the the disproportionate uh impact on minority communities of federal policies have
01:55:50
actually been bought off and bought into the pro says and you know a lot of times
01:55:54
those are the voices you hear saying this is racist what's really racist is po poisoning black Americans because
01:56:02
these are communities that are food deserts um the school lunch program is the you know often times those
01:56:09
communities the biggest access that they have to food and we're giving them poison food we're you know they many of
01:56:16
these communities have no Grocery Stores um they you know they no big like they definitely don't have uh Whole
01:56:24
Foods they don't have access to to those kind of foods shouldn't we have National
01:56:30
policies that that make sure our people are healthy and you know they use of course Market uh Dynamics but also
01:56:39
supports we're we're giving billions of dollars in agricultural subsidies for Farmers to
01:56:47
addict Farmers to to to Growing commodity agriculture which is bad food food it's low in nutrients it's high in
01:56:54
chemicals it's high in pesticides and you know we need to change these perverse incentives so that
01:57:02
uh and and feed America I you know we what how can anybody argue with this how can anybody
01:57:09
say that we should not have healthy children that we should be giving people food that is hurting them it's just it
01:57:15
doesn't make any sense sax any questions for you for Bobby about democracy what went down with Biden the fairness
01:57:25
of the democratic party I know you've got some strong feelings on it so I just wanted to give you your red meat and
01:57:29
your window here I'm I'm sure a lot of his confirming for you what he's saying um and you know I'll be honest I think
01:57:36
what the Democratic party did to you Mr Kennedy was absolutely abhorent and disgusting and it it really is um
01:57:43
infuriating to me especially what the mainstream media did um and I'm glad that we got to have you on early on our
01:57:51
podcast at least to some of your ideas get out there but uh let's give Sax's red meet here because you joining Trump
01:57:58
is a a wild card I don't think any of us saw coming well let me pick up on those
01:58:02
themes jcal uh first of all I want to commend Bobby on running an upbeat and positive campaign you know you were and
01:58:09
I still are the most articulate and Powerful champion of free speech over censorship civil liberties over the
01:58:17
surveillance State peace over War you've spoken about the issue of chronic Health
01:58:22
which it to be honest is an issue I didn't know that much about but I think you've put it now on the political radar
01:58:27
screen in a way that it's not going away uh so I think you ran a a very Noble and
01:58:33
effective campaign and I think like you said it was a campaign for the soul of the democratic party you know I think
01:58:40
you represented issues that in the days of your father and President johnf Kennedy these would have been Democratic
01:58:48
party issues how did the Democratic party respond they effectively ran you out they did not give you the chance
01:58:54
they conducted law fair to keep you off the ballot they didn't let you debate I heard your running mates say they even
01:59:00
tried to infiltrate your campaign and all the while this party was claiming to be the party of democracy find that
01:59:07
incredibly hypocritical I think that if they had given you the opportunity to debate I
01:59:15
think we now know what would have happened I mean we saw what happened when Biden actually debated Trump is
01:59:21
there's a complete implosion of Biden's campaign we discovered that indeed the Democratic
01:59:27
party had been hiding his condition for a long time and when he was finally forced to debate didn't have a
01:59:35
teleprompter or a script it became extremely obvious what happened then they basically put in a new nominee
01:59:42
who's never been voted on K Harris has never received one primary vote it was done through a process that was opaque
01:59:50
we still don't know how it went down I have to disagree with Reed that um Biden did it in a voluntary way Biden went
01:59:58
Kicking and Screaming I mean he basically said publicly over and over again I'm not leaving the race I'm in
02:00:02
this race he tweeted it he said it he said only God Almighty could get me out of the race and then it was reported
02:00:08
that Nancy Pelosi went to him and said we can do this the easy way or the hard way you said God
02:00:13
Almighty she might be God Almighty she might Bey but the point is there was nothing
02:00:18
Democratic about this and now we have a new Democratic Party nomy who refuses to
02:00:23
do press conferences refuses to do solo interviews refuses to take questions from the Press who's hiding herself
02:00:31
effectively and yet this party again claims to be the party of democracy I find it just almost um maddening or or
02:00:40
ging again in its hypocrisy and I just I don't see how everybody can't see through
02:00:46
this it's just not the way that democracy is supposed to work and I certainly don't think that the people
02:00:52
engaging these tactics can be cloaking themselves in all this High fluing rhetoric of of democracy it's just
02:00:58
absurd and so I feel like I'm in the place that you are Bobby you know as viewers of this pod know I did not start
02:01:05
off supporting Trump in the primaries I supported you in the Democratic primary and I did fundraisers for DeSantis and
02:01:12
V and that was in large part because I think of the job that DeSantis did as Governor but when it came to the general
02:01:19
the realization that I came to is that Trump is the indispensable figure in our current politics for marshalling this
02:01:26
populist energy to resist this hypocritical Elite authoritarianism that wants to engage in
02:01:35
censorship over debate that seems to want to protect and defend this um surveillance State over anything it
02:01:43
wants to do that wants to keep all these wars going uh even when they don't make
02:01:47
sense when we could have found a way to negotiate a diplomatic end to them and so I'm kind of delighted that you've
02:01:54
kind of come around to this opinion too I know you have your reservations about Trump I'm not saying that Trump is
02:01:58
perfect I mean I think he's a uh he's human I mean he's a flawed vessel but at the end of the day he is the the choice
02:02:05
that represents again these populist forces resisting authoritarianism sorry this is more of a statement than a
02:02:10
question but I'll let you react to all of that well let me react the last thing you said about President Trump I
02:02:17
think if president Trump wins um that people are going to see very different president Trump than they did during the
02:02:24
first term um I think he's changed as a person uh and I've known him for you know 30 years I've sued him I've
02:02:32
litigated against him and and had a friendship with him even when I was litigating against
02:02:37
him and by the way successfully against him but I I think he is um he's focus on
02:02:46
his legacy he said many interesting things to me about what he did wrong the last time and about how
02:02:53
he filled his you know he had no idea he was going to win he had no idea how to govern and people descended on him the
02:02:59
day that he got elected and said you got to appoint this guy appoint this guy and
02:03:03
he said you know I I appointed a lot of people I shouldn't appointed I know who they are now he also said something
02:03:10
interesting to me he said uh because the Democrats one of the big sort of fulgums
02:03:16
of their Terror of trump is that he's going to implement this Heritage Foundation
02:03:22
you know uh blueprint which is called uh project 2025 and he brought this issue up to me
02:03:28
and he said you know they always telling me I'm I'm for project 2025 I never read
02:03:33
project 2025 until they started accusing me of it he said that was written by a right-wing ass this what he what he said
02:03:42
he said there are leftwing [ __ ] and there was there right-wing assh and it was a right-wing [ __ ] who wrote that
02:03:48
thing and then he started going through it so I you know I think there there's a
02:03:54
lot and I think he's interested in his legacy now he wants to leave behind some accomplishments and he wants to make our
02:04:03
country better and I think he's um you know he's listening to a wider range of voices and has he's preparing to govern
02:04:13
right now and you know I'm going to be on the transition committee picking the people who are going to
02:04:19
govern to he's going to be there there's going to be a wide diversity of of stakeholders but he's listening to more
02:04:26
than just that kind of narrow right-wing band that people are terrify it would be
02:04:30
great if you could get to him because you know he he really did present well on this podcast and had like a very good
02:04:35
moment in that first half of the RNC and then he started defaulting back to and I
02:04:40
know a lot of moderates like myself hate this about him and it's a big part of why we don't like him is he goes back to
02:04:46
Insel Comics goes back to race goes back to gender you know and it's just like dude we that Trump 1.0 is what people
02:04:54
don't want they don't want chaotic Trump they want you know post assassination attempt Trump and it's just so
02:05:02
infuriating well a lot of people feel that way J con I think at the end of the day you and others are going to have to
02:05:08
decide do you want to support the candidate who has the right policies but maybe there's style points that you
02:05:13
don't like about him because I think that the things you're talking about the Mean Tweets and so forth at the end of
02:05:19
the day I think they're stylistic things I don't think they go deep to to policy
02:05:24
or how he would govern or do you want to support a campaign that is running on Vibes and joy you know that has this
02:05:33
superficiality that you like but there's nothing underneath it and when we do learn something underneath that when we
02:05:39
actually learn a policy then all the the people who are supporting her have to say oh well she's not really going to do
02:05:45
that she's not going to do that so the best thing you can say about her campaign is that she's not going to be
02:05:51
able to accomplish the things that she says she wants to accomplish good news basis on which to vote for a president
02:05:57
good news is I'm in Texas so I can put in my my Bobby Kennedy vote as a protest vote and it doesn't make a difference
02:06:03
and I can I can I respond to the other part of David's question to me sure they um and you know I think to me the most
02:06:11
troubling thing about what's happening now you have you've had two Democratic candidates who've not been able to give
02:06:18
unscripted interviews which is extraordinary I mean my father and Uncle we're so proud of you know the
02:06:25
United States our capacity to engage in debate to defend who we were in the world to defend a vision of our country
02:06:31
to articulate it to the rest of the world to be the leaders of the Free World and um and have a command of the
02:06:38
facts and of knowledge and to be eloquent and um how can you be a leader in the world what does the rest of the
02:06:45
world think of us right now I mean what could they possibly think we have two Democratic party candidates
02:06:52
were not able to explain themselves in an interview the other day something yeah I
02:07:01
really I think point in which is if you want to if you want the job of handling the nuclear codes you got to do an
02:07:08
interview first and you know how can you go 30 39 days without talking to the Press without being able to defend your
02:07:19
record to explain who you are to the American people and if you talk to Democrats about this and you can get
02:07:26
past the anger and past the vi on this kind of wall of of tribal resistance to any new knowledge
02:07:33
coming in what they or any con contrary facts what they'll say is well we're not
02:07:40
really voting for comma we're voting for the apparatus then you ask the next question
02:07:48
how has that apparatus serve you you know has the open border surve you has the $35 trillion debt surve you has all
02:07:56
the endless war surve you has the destruction the American middle class highest inflation rate in a
02:08:04
generation has any of that actually you know has that apparatus produced something for the United States that
02:08:11
you're so proud of that you want to blindly vote without knowing who you're voting for anyway that that I mean and
02:08:19
and uh KLA and Waltz will do an interview Dana Bash tonight uh the night we're taping this on Thursday so we'll
02:08:25
see maybe she'll miraculously do 10 podcasts and she'll be dynamic but it certainly doesn't look good that they
02:08:32
filibustered with Biden and gave them only most favored nation interviews I do respect the fact that we've had so many
02:08:38
great candidates come on this pod and have 90minut two-hour discussions I'm very proud of the work we've done here
02:08:44
and and Bobby you were a keep piece of that and we really appreciate you coming on early and having these debates and
02:08:48
coming here today to talk about it just me means the world for you to come back and talk about this wish you great
02:08:53
success with make America healthy again I think it's incredibly Noble independent of how I feel about Trump
02:08:58
January 6 abortion any of those issues I respect the fact that you want to make America healthy again uh and I wish you
02:09:05
great continued success with that and we will see you all next time on the podcast
02:09:12
byebye let your winners ride Rainman David and said we open it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with
02:09:23
[Music] it [Music] besties myg driveway oh man we should all just get a room and
02:09:44
just have one big huge orgy cuz they're all this useless it's like this like sexual tension that they just need to
02:09:49
release somehow what your we need to get mer [Music] our [Music] going and now the plugs the all in
02:10:11
Summit is taking place in Los Angeles September 8th 9th and 10th you can apply for a tiet summit. Allin podcast.co
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