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[Music] We're here on the Celsius Galway in Sabine Pass uh just outside of Bowmont,
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Texas with the Secretary of the Interior, Doug Bergam. The crew is giving us a tour. This is an amazing
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export facility, the largest in the United States, second largest in the world. We're going to talk with the
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secretary in a minute about American energy independence and the role that this company, this facility, and this
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process plays. So excited to have the conversation with the secretary. [Music] [Applause]
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[Music] What' you think? Well, I he was fantastic, but to be on a brand new ship
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like this is pretty special. I mean, like brand spanking like this is the first cargo it's taking. This is like
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this is like not even out of the showroom. Brand new. Yeah. I mean, look at that. Those are spotless. Yeah, this
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was definitely coordinated for you. I have a suspicion. But it's beautiful. I think they coordinated for you. They
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heard you were coming, Doug. They were saying in 2008, this facility was basically bankrupt. Yes. And this has
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been a development project since about 2012 and it went from practically nothing to the largest LNG exporter in
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the world in 13 years. In 13 years. And prior to that, when it was originally built, because this is before the
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amazing miracle of the of the whole shale revolution in our country, right? without that this was being built as a
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LG import facility. That was the original thing. We're going to have to import LG to America. Now LG is the
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number two dollar export on the alltime list for the country. It's the second most highest dollar value we export. We
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went from from being like, oh, we're going to run out of oil and gas to today uh we're energy independent on a net
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basis and we're on our path towards becoming energy dominant. I'm going all in. All right, besties. I think that was
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another epic discussion. People love the interviews. I could hear him talk for hours. Absolutely. We crushed your
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questions in a minute. We are giving people ground truth data to underwrite your own opinion. What do you guys
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think? That was fun. That was great. Welcome to the all-in interview here today with Secretary Doug Bergam, the
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55th Secretary of the Interior of the United States of America. We are here in beautiful Sabine Pass in Louisiana today
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at the Shener LNG facility. It's been an amazing tour this afternoon. It's a little bit windy, but it's still a
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beautiful afternoon. Thanks for joining me today, Doug. David, it's great to be with you. Thank you for coming down and
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uh seeing this amazing facility. So, we just took a great tour here. Why were you here today? And what are we checking
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out? Well, I think President Trump, one of his core goals, if we talk about energy dominance, which is beyond energy
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independence, it's not just a a slogan. It's really about how do we have the power to power AI in America? How do we
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power the remanufacturing in America? And then how do we sell energy to our friends and allies so that they don't
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have to buy it from our adversaries. And what what we you and I had a chance to see today is the largest LG export
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facility in America, the second largest in the world. Yeah. I was struck. I didn't really realize how quickly this
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facility grew up just about a dozen years ago. There was nothing really going on here. And now it's the second
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largest export facility of methane in the world. And methane is seeing a a massive resurgence around the world
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because it has a lower carbon footprint. There's demand. It's transportable. So there's a lot of reasons why there's a
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massive growing market for for liqufied natural gas or methane. Absolutely. And part of the amazing energy
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transformation that I think is not fully appreciated by most Americans is when this plant began uh in the early 2000s,
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it was meant to be an LNG import facility. America was running out of oil and gas and they said, "Wait, we got to
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be ready to start importing it just to meet our needs." Well, along comes the shale gas revolution again driven by
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technology. That technology of horizontal drilling, that ability to, you know, fractionate rock uh and get
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oil and gas out of places that people thought was just impossible that we would ever be retrieving uh that those
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resources from those from those hard rock shale locations. And so then this thing after the financial crisis turned
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around and began its life as an export facility and now as you say the only one larger in the world is in the Middle
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East. So I I want to go back a little bit and how you ended up in the seat, how you ended up um not just being the
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secretary of the interior but you're also the chair of the National Energy Dominance Council. I really want to talk
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about the importance I talk about on the podcast a lot about the importance of growing energy production in this
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country. But you're a tech entrepreneur who is from North Dakota, became governor of the state, and I'd love for
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you to just do your highlights, how you ended up there, what you did with respect to energy, um, and also how that
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translated into a surplus of jobs and economic prosperity for that state. It's been quite a journey. uh you know
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starting out in a town of 300 people in North Dakota with all gravel streets and
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no computers uh to end up having an opportunity to uh to be part of a software startup you know grow that
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business take it public have a great run as a public company get acquired in an all stock deal by Microsoft stayed there
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for seven years uh you know helping grow Microsoft from 40,000 people to to 90,000 people and there was 2,000 of us
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at great plains when we got acquired there was 1,200 in Fargo 400 rest in North America, 400 rest of the world, we
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become a this improbable global software company uh coming from the from the great plains. And then when I left
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Microsoft to uh uh presumably spend more time with kids, retire uh that was an epic fail. Ended up in uh two more
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startups within six months. Uh was involved in three more software IPOs and dozens of other uh businesses and I mean
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software businesses. And then uh in 2016 at a time when we were having an energy
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collapse in prices uh there was an open seat for governor and I threw my hat in the ring and uh we were uh down at 6910
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in the polls in January. The primary was in June. Uh Katherine was who became the
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first lady was like, "Oh, we've got a great life. Let's why would we why would we get into politics? Why would we get
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into that?" And I assured her that we had no chance of winning and she didn't have to ever worry about being first
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lady. but this would be fun for six months to create some competition. But we ended up winning that primary and and
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then went on uh got it was a good year for outsiders. So we took office the uh about in North Dakota you start middle
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of December. So about 36 days ahead of President Trump we were sworn in had four amazing years uh working with
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President Trump as a governor. There was a win behind our back and then second term uh we got reelected by the largest
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margin in the country of any race. But then that was I was serving as a governor under the Biden administration
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and in a state where we'd become we're rapidly becoming a very ris resourcerich state. Uh we had climbed to being the
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number two oil producer in the country. Uh we had you know tremendous coal resources, incredible agriculture
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resources and in ranching and the Biden administration really was having a war on on on whether it was timber grazing,
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oil and gas, coal, critical minerals. I mean anything that had to do with extraction uh there was a regulatory
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battle going on and and I and I would have to say that a part of me uh not just became frustrated I became very
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concerned about the future of the country and that led to you know jumping at the national level and saying hey
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we've got to have a policy uh because if we don't if we don't have energy security we're not going to have
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national security and that's what really uh drove the to sort of this us sitting
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here right now today. So, you ran for president. You ran for the Republican nomination against President Trump and
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others. And then, um, obviously, President Trump got that nomination. Did you keep in touch with him after that?
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And how did you kind of work with his staff and his office as he was moving his campaign forward? Well, we were we
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were in touch uh because we you know we knew each other as a governor would know
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a president, but I was never really running against President Trump. And I think the record shows that I was really
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running against these horrifically dangerous uh and uh you know unsound, unsafe uh policies of the Biden
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administration, which are almost, you know, too numerous to enumerate. When I left office last December 15th, just
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December 15th of of 2024, uh, as governor, I was involved in 30 lawsuits against the Biden administration. You
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know, many of them including against the agency the the agency that the bureaus that I'm now leading uh because the
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regulatory regime was such that it wasn't about regulating oil and gas. It was about eliminating oil and gas from
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America. and and and if there was some sort of false god around climate ideology that they were that was being
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chased, it was like, "Oh, if we stop the supply coming from the US, we're going to somehow save the planet." But there
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was no reduction of demand. The demand was just being filled by by, you know, Iran, Venezuela, Russia, and they and
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they were funding wars against us. So, I mean, I thought it was closest thing to
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insanity that I'd ever seen. And so when uh when we when we dropped out uh very quickly uh I was the first of any of the
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other candidates to endorse President Trump uh and uh and then spent last year campaigning for him. Yeah. And then
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there was, can I say this, some rumors that you might have been in the running for vice president, but you obviously
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stayed close with the the president and and his staff and found your way into this role. How did that process go for
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you? How did you end up in this role that you're Well, I it's a I love what I'm doing and I love the role. Uh
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because of course as a western uh western governor uh we have all the things that interior has as governor of
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North Dakota which is a jam-packed fun job. Uh you've got you're chairman of the land board and just being governor.
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Well then meant you know dealing with land and minerals and all the leasing and all the issues with the energy
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industry. You're also the uh head of the water commission. Uh interior has the bureau of reclamation which is the
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second largest hydroelect electric producer in the country and manages you know the miracle of irrigation that the
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Roosevelt came up with. We wouldn't have agriculture in Arizona or California without that. Uh and then Bureau of
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Indian Affairs is part of Interior. Uh and that's a uh something I had a lot of experience with and all the challenges
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that we face in terms of healthcare and education on the tribal areas. So across
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the whole realm of interior everything that I had in North Dakota is part of my job today except
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one thing uh and that's offshore oil production because uh North Dakota as you would know is the center of North
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America. So if you're afraid of sharks, you should move to North Dakota because it literally is the furthest place in
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North America from any ocean. So we had no offshore, but uh today earlier today,
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I had a chance to get on my first offshore platform and and uh and see uh the innovation and entrepreneurship
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there that's uh again now providing about 16% of the uh oil for the America. So I mean let's talk about the energy
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problem, the energy opportunity. Before we do, I think 50% of the potential audience of this
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conversation cue out and say this is evil. There's good and there's bad. This is bad. Exploitation of natural
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resources. Extraction of natural resources damages the planet, ruins the environment, puts carbon in the
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atmosphere, drives climate change. and they won't listen to any conversation about the pragmatism of energy security
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and the importance energy plays in prosperity. Taking people out of poverty, raising them up, raising living
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standards and giving access to things around the world that every individual wants, which is more prosperity. And one
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statistic I always quote is that if you go back 500 plus years, you can see and there's all these studies that have
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tried to understand energy production versus GDP, which translates to prosperity per capita. And there's a
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linear relationship. The more energy that's produced, the higher the GDP per capita. And that's what we see around
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the world in developing markets today. So I guess maybe you could just take a moment to talk to those folks. Share a
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little bit about your perspective of the relationship between taking care of the
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environment and the planet and the importance of energy demand and energy security before we get into the things
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that are going on. Well, I I think you're uh you're spot on. I mean, human flourishing depends on on everyone. And
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I think if you're talking about access for everyone, uh you just take a look. I mean, we have we could have as many as
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800 million people on the planet uh you know, shy of a billion uh that don't have access to electricity and they they
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need more energy. Now, with AI coming, the demand for power is going to go up. Uh the demand for advanced
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manufacturing. So, we're not in any kind of energy transition. We're in an area where we need energy addition. And if we
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want human flourishing, if we want to reach our planet's fullest potential and if we want to take care of our
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environment, which you we can do all these things at the same time, that even that requires uh requires energy. I
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mean, if you if you if you're worried about, you know, water sources, well, desalination, which we can do, requires
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a lot of energy. Uh you know, transportation of goods requires energy. Uh so whether you know it's the the
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clothes on your back, the food on your table, the the transportation drive, there's an energy component to all of
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that. and electrifying stuff doesn't change. It just changes the source of the we still need to create the
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electricity. So I feel like that if anybody is concerned about the environment, they should want to have it
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every ounce of a liquid fuel and every electron produced in the United States because if you compare us to any other
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any other country, we produce it cleaner, safer, smarter, and healthier than anyone else. that I learned in
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North Dakota over those eight years as governor where we were always on the top of the list of, you know, cleanest
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water, cleanest air, best soil health, all of these things that we were able to achieve. And we were going up the charts
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in terms of energy production. These things go hand in hand. They're not it's not either or. It's it's a plus when you
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can do both. And we were just talking to this crew on board uh the ship we just visited. They're on their way to Taiwan
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and they go to Japan. And so if we can produce liquid methane in this country with a lower carbon footprint, then that
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methane might be produced elsewhere, which is the case. We use we have cleaner methods for production. And that
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demand exists regardless of whether or not the United States produces it. It's important that the United States take
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advantage of the opportunity to produce it cleaner, more safely, and with a lower footprint and and build economic
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prosperity for us as exporters. Yes, absolutely. I mean, so the the the net formula that you've just described is
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the more energy that's produced in the United States, the better it is for the globe and the better it is for American
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prosperity. And I would say it's not just for the globe environmentally. It's also for for peace. It's not just
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prosperity at home, but literally the two the two proxy wars that we've been involved in with Russia after Russia
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invaded Ukraine and after uh you know Iran funding 24 different terror groups, they were funding those wars against us
00:14:58
with their oil and gas sales. And so if if we can replace their customers with US sources, they have less revenue. They
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have less funding literally to fund terrorism. So it is prosperity at home, peace abroad, it's nothing short of
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that. So let's talk about the energy demand equation. The US is forecasted to increase its electricity production
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capacity from 1 to 2 terowatt by 2040 15 years from now. During that same period
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of time, China is going to go from 3 to 8 terowatt. And that China forecast, by the way, excludes any of the Gen 4
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nuclear reactors, the new hydroelectric facilities, and the new thorium, or if that ever scales that they're
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considering rolling out in addition to what they've already planned to roll out. So, in the next 15 years, China is
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adding five Americas. Yes. In electricity, production capacity. And if everything gets automated, factories are
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automated, AI becomes the great accelerant of the global economy, China is hugely advantaged relative to where
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we sit today. What do we need to do about it? Well, this is the if you were to ask me what's the thing that keeps me
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awake at night. Uh this is this is the issue and it's so thrilling and refreshing that you understand the
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scale, the magnitude and the importance of this uh the AI arms race which is really driven by access to electricity.
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And China last year brought on 94 and a half gigawatts of coal powered electricity. One gawatt is Denver. So
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they brought on 94 Denvers just last year. That's more than all we have today for all of California and all of New
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York is less than 94. So they added a New York and a California worth of electricity last year just from coal.
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They're still getting 60% of their base load from coal. And people people may they stop listening when they hear the
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word coal. But coal from an electricity standpoint, thermal coal uh is fantastic
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base load. uh it has, you know, all the characteristics to allow you to maintain
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amperage and voltage to keep a system going. And I think we just saw in Spain, you know, they were celebrating on April
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12th of this past month that they'd shut down their last coal plant. And then a week after that, they were celebrating
00:17:01
the fact that they had their first day of 100% renewables on their system. And then the next week, uh they were global
00:17:07
news story because people were trapped in subways. Uh all airline flights canled. uh hospitals were panicking with
00:17:14
a lack of power uh because they had a uh you know a rolling blackout and grid failure because it just defies physics.
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You can't run an electrical grid with just intermittent power. You cannot run with something that is based in
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intermittent is the definition of solar or wind because the sun doesn't shine at
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night uh and the wind doesn't blow every day and you can have have it and so we in America we became dangerously close
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to that right now. We've got parts of our country that are at risk for those same kind of of what I'll call the Biden
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brownouts and blackouts to happen because we overs subsidized the intermittent and we overregulated uh all
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of the base load in an idea to quote save the planet and all we're doing is potentially putting our own country at
00:17:56
risk. So it was regulatory action that's been taken and I've got to imagine it's
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not just the Biden administration. This has to go back cuz this is in 35 years in this country, we only
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added6 terowatts of electricity production capacity to the grid. What's gone on in this country that's made it
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so hard for us to operate more efficiently in terms of adding new energy capacity to the grid? Is it
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regulatory only or are there capital, social and other reasons that this has become a challenge for us? Well, the the
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regulatory uh attack was a whole of government. So, it did attack the formation of capital. I mean, you you
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came up with regulatory rules that made it impossible for for base load power uh
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from fossil fuels even, you know, get a permit. Well, if you can't get a permit,
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then you can't get access to capital. You can't get access to insurance. Uh and then you had, you know, protest and
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social media and everybody going online saying, "Oh, we've got to exit from all this." And this same phenomena happened
00:18:50
in Germany. Uh it's I think it's very clear right now that a lot of that a lot of what I call the social mediadriven uh
00:18:58
concerns were part of you know scops operations from places like Russia. I mean it was Russia's great advantage to
00:19:04
get Germany to shut down nuclear to shut down all their coal production and hey we have a solution just buy all your
00:19:10
natural gas from us. So Germany spent a half a trillion dollars$500 billion dollars on the quote air quotes
00:19:17
transition to to green energy. They were transitioning to wind and solar. H half
00:19:23
a trillion, $500 billion. They today produce 20% less electricity. And that electricity cost three times as much as
00:19:30
it did before they began the transition. And now we have the the war, you know, with Russia inventing Ukraine. What are
00:19:36
they doing? They were scrambling to try to reopen coal plants. They were scrambling to try to get back in the
00:19:41
nuclear game. They were saying, "Wow, we overshot the mark. We went too far." Uh
00:19:46
again, highly subsidizing uh intermittent sources. And so it it's like I think part of the awakening that
00:19:52
is occurring right now is that if the the greatest existential threat to the planet and to America is not one degree
00:19:59
of climate change in the year 2100 because guess what innovation will solve will solve any challenges that we have
00:20:05
with climate change with innovation and we won't have innovation without electricity and actually losing the AI
00:20:10
arms race to China uh is the real threat. I do agree with you. I'll be declarative on this because a lot of
00:20:16
people ask me I started a company called the climate corporation. We talked a lot
00:20:19
about climate change. I believe deeply in a lot of this climate science, but I also believe more deeply that innovation
00:20:26
will solve a lot of the challenges that may arise. And there's a whole series of
00:20:30
solutions that are developing. And we can talk a little bit about some of those longerterm solutions that
00:20:35
ultimately yield to unlimited free scalable energy production. And when that happens, you know, all bets are
00:20:44
off. No. And some of that could and we have line of sight to that. Yeah. And some of that could be coming in the next
00:20:47
decade. It doesn't help us today cuz today uh we've got to shore it up. And I think one thing that you know having
00:20:53
spent 30 years in tech, we never used more than 1% of the nation's electrical production and it was because uh
00:21:00
computers were getting more tech. Yeah. Tech the tech industry. Tech industry. We used 1% and no one paid any attention
00:21:06
and the tech industry didn't pay any attention to power generation because they didn't have to because PCs got more
00:21:12
efficient, software got more efficient and then America was rich. we everyone was buying appliances that were more
00:21:17
efficient. So there was wasn't ever really a demand curve on electricity. But then today with AI, the demand curve
00:21:24
is just flying in the face. And when I was at at uh Sarah Week, which is the biggest uh energy conclave, uh when I
00:21:32
was speaking to the group, I said there's something different here this year. And what's different is the five
00:21:36
biggest tech companies in America showed up at that conference with $300 billion
00:21:41
dollar of capex. you know, the big ones have got 75 billion 75 billion a piece, you know, for the top ones on that
00:21:49
chart. And and I'll reflect back to not that long ago, a couple decades ago, I was a corporate officer at Microsoft for
00:21:56
seven years. I never went to a capex meeting, right? Somebody said, "Well, weren't you invited?" I said, "No, there
00:22:01
were no capex meetings." You know, we hired salespeople and software developers, and if we needed an office
00:22:06
in Singapore or Munich, we rented it, leased it, and so there was no capex. And now they showed up at that
00:22:12
conference and I had to speak to all the executives and said, "Look, these guys aren't here trying to sell you software.
00:22:17
They're your biggest customers. They need power and they will do anything." And the regulated uh power providers and
00:22:23
some in the industry have just have never seen a demand curve. So, it's like a collision between high-tech and the
00:22:29
power generation in America. And and coming from that, we've got to figure out a way to break through this. We just
00:22:34
got back from DC. There was this hill and valley forum this week. Every single speech, every single talk, every
00:22:40
conversation in the hallways was all about the energy demand coming from AI. I don't think the public realizes, I
00:22:46
don't think the broad business community realizes how energy hungry AI is and how
00:22:52
this is going to ramp up like no one's ever seen in history. And by the way, we haven't yet seen the ramp up of robotics
00:22:59
and automation. There's going to be a breakthrough in the next year or two that's going to unleash this additional
00:23:03
demand curve. We're going to have a 100red million robots in the United States that are all electrified. They
00:23:08
all got to get charged up. That power has got to come from somewhere. So, this feels like a massive challenge for
00:23:16
America, like going to the moon, fighting World War II in Europe, a Manhattan Project style set of solutions
00:23:23
are needed to address this. What is this council that you're leading, the National Energy Dominance Council,
00:23:31
doing? What are kind of the top three things that you think unlock the energy potential in the United States and meet
00:23:37
the demand curve that's kind of tidal waving its way across this country right now? Well, I'd say that the the good
00:23:45
news is that we have a president of the United States that understands this. Yeah. And that's why on day one in
00:23:51
office, he declared an energy emergency. some folks that aren't familiar with what you've just described, uh, this
00:23:58
awareness that we've we're facing a crisis, uh, were, you know, questioning whether we had an energy emergency, but
00:24:05
as you've just described, we have a huge one relative to our grid, grid stability. We don't have enough power to
00:24:09
win the AI arms race. And AI arms race means without that, we lose the defense battle because it's not just robotics in
00:24:17
manufacturing. you know, if we're going to have a golden dome, if we're going to
00:24:21
have any, you know, ability to defend ourselves from hypersonics or, you know, protect our fleet uh around the ocean,
00:24:27
not to have them all wiped out in the first hour of a conflict, we have to have AI uh both targeting and a defense
00:24:34
standpoint. So, you can't separate defense from AI anymore either. So, this is it's mission critical. So, with that
00:24:41
with that energy emergency, then we have to pull out all stops. So, back to NE DC. Uh, which by the way, for those that
00:24:47
are easy to remember, it's like AC/DC. It's NEC. And then we could even have a little lightning bolt in the logo. I
00:24:52
don't know if you're going to get there, Doug, but but you know, t-shirt have t-shirts with I actually might make that
00:24:57
t-shirt for you. I'll I mean, I think it's You guys sell swag on this podcast. I think that's going to be the new one.
00:25:03
Uh, new bestseller. Anyway, with with the You could sell that swag. You know, we could fund a new energy program.
00:25:08
Yeah, we go with with the but with our We're not a organization. We're like a small tiger team and think of it more
00:25:15
like a governor's economic development super super team. President Trump is asking us to find things that are
00:25:22
critical to the infrastructure where they're running into roadblocks and then help them. I want to say white glove
00:25:27
concier service. Help them get the permit, help them get started. The capital is there. It's often a
00:25:33
regulatory thing that's stopping uh you know like natural gas getting into New England. We've got I mean we're never
00:25:39
going to build an AI data center in New York or in New England if the price of natural gas is three times higher than
00:25:45
it is in Pennsylvania. And yet they're still campaigning on, hey, we blocked this natural gas pipeline. You know, I
00:25:51
mean, everybody in Pennsylvania loves that because they'll get all the data centers, they'll get all the advanced
00:25:55
manufacturing. I mean, we've got, you know, in Arizona, you've got, you know, the TSMC plant coming there that's going
00:26:02
to require enormous amounts of power. uh people want to put data centers there and yet you know their utility is just
00:26:08
shutting down a coal plant and it's like okay how are you going to power this stuff and so one of the goals we have is
00:26:14
don't shut down any more base load preserve what we have uh and help you know get other get new sources of power
00:26:20
permitted does that include nuclear some of the reactor shutdowns that are planned yeah we got to keep everything
00:26:25
going and we got to go fast on the small modular nuclear and but again that's really kind of in the 2030s so there
00:26:31
that's that's in our next it's it's in important uh but it's a little less urgent. We need to fasttrack all that
00:26:38
stuff long term. That's where the solutions will likely lie. But in between now 2025 and 2030 uh a lot of
00:26:45
it's going to come back to LG because that the fastest thing we can get online uh for more electricity generation is uh
00:26:51
LG power plants. LG power plants. So that's number one. I mean, just to frame things up for folks, you know, you
00:26:57
mentioned the city of Denver utilizes about a 1 gawatt of of electricity, a standard Gen 2 scaled nuclear reactor
00:27:05
facilities producing about a gigawatt. And these small modular reactors, these SMRs as they're called that China now
00:27:11
has demonstrated 5 megawatts. They can be small, they can be located in an office complex or in a downtown area of
00:27:17
a city. And they're designed to have redundant systems for safety and not having meltdowns and so on. talk a
00:27:23
little bit about the opportunity for nuclear. You know, you're seeing the 2030s. Meanwhile, China's got several
00:27:28
hundred that they're in construction on. There's clearly technology available today. Uranium is not hard to get. We
00:27:35
have a lot of it. Thorium is not hard to get. We have an incredible amount of thorium. Those are the two fuel sources.
00:27:41
Why can't we move faster with nuclear? What's the hold back? And why is the US so different than China in being able to
00:27:48
scale up nuclear? A big difference is again back to the regulatory environment. I mean the the regulatory
00:27:54
environment on nuclear uh has been so burdensome uh in terms of adding to the cost and the time frame and bring it on
00:28:02
that and then when that cost was put onto a utility and then utility felt they had to put that back on the rate on
00:28:08
the on their on the uh the rate payers their consumer customers uh there was in some ways a revolt and it wasn't safety
00:28:14
related. It was like oh you want nuclear but now my electricity is going to cost
00:28:17
twice as much. I'm not for that. So we have to be able to get that regulatory regime down and allow them to go faster.
00:28:23
And of course on the SMRs once that design gets approved we should be able to have essentially like a manufacturing
00:28:30
where we've we've we regulate the design the design is proven and prove out. As long as the manufacturing plant is
00:28:37
producing that same design then we don't have to do this stick built show up you
00:28:42
know you work for a week the inspector shows up oh this is off by you know one millimeter you got to redo it. I mean
00:28:48
some of that is where you end up with doubling of co I mean you can't I mean some of the projects that have just been
00:28:53
completed you know that took you know close to two decades on nuclear and then had double the cost and double the time
00:29:00
you know that's that's not economically sustainable. So part of it is we've got to streamline the process, but these
00:29:05
smaller amounts, they can be daisy chained. They could be great solutions. And then the other piece which you love
00:29:10
about having the small moducer is we can spend money on power generation as opposed to money on transmission because
00:29:16
transmission is also it's really hard to build a transmission line in this country because whether it's a linear
00:29:22
infrastructure which includes natural gas pipelines CO2 pipelines oil and gas pipelines or transmission lines those
00:29:29
become the focal point for protests because if they have any nexus an 1100 mile long pipeline could have one mile
00:29:38
that touches federal ground. That is where the protest is going to occur. So, going back to your deregulatory action,
00:29:44
can you do that in the seat that you're in? Who can take that deregulatory action? Do you need Congress to get
00:29:50
involved? I I've got a great partner, Chris Wright, uh, incredibly talented, arguably uh, the most qualified
00:29:58
Secretary of Energy we've ever had leading that effort because the Department of Energy has got most of the
00:30:04
responsibility related to nuclear because they also are in charge of our nuclear stockpile. I mean for the
00:30:10
military I mean DOE has got direct defense responsibilities and and as part of that uh they we've also got the 15
00:30:17
national labs and there's been great work that's happening in Los Alamos and Scandia. I mean uh you know you go
00:30:24
around the whole country and we've got an incredibly talented group of people and and research dollars have been
00:30:29
flowing but we've got to get some of that commercialized and out to the public. So but again you think of it
00:30:34
literally as a Manhattan project. These were the these were the places where we did the Manhattan project. when you
00:30:39
think of Los Alamos and others. So, we've got to mobilize these government agencies to help us on the current the
00:30:45
current crisis we're facing, which is this energy emergency. We should talk to Chris Wright. Um, yes, you should. And
00:30:50
then what's your what's your point of view on the timeline for the SMRs? Do you think it's 2035, 2030 when you have
00:30:56
that approved design and you stamp them out? Is it 2040 or is it still Well, the
00:31:00
fun thing when we the fun thing when we meet with all of these uh people in the nuclear industry, if you were doing this
00:31:05
5 years ago, you'd have been talking to regulated utilities. Today you can talk to venture funded venture funded
00:31:11
startups and there's at least 10 that are out there today uh that are chasing new designs. There's people that are
00:31:17
changing chasing not just vision but fusion and so all of that is exciting. Uh and if you think about our think of
00:31:23
us having an air base in Alaska I mean think of being able to daisy chain some SMRs there and not having to build
00:31:29
transmission. I mean the applications for the military purposes and for other and then if you have distributed it's
00:31:36
harder for the enemy to knock out your power source because it's not all sitting in one spot. Do you think
00:31:40
America has a risk tolerance problem? My view is we've gotten so wealthy and comfortable and we have such prosperity
00:31:47
in this nation just like what happened in Europe. You eventually say I don't want to take any risk anymore and
00:31:53
everything gets regulated to the point that you don't want to have any damage or hurt or downside. Like this is the
00:32:00
whole thing with self-driving cars. Elon just put out a tweet saying he's seeing
00:32:04
one car crash every 5 million miles or something on self-driving versus 1 million miles when there's not
00:32:09
self-driving on. So it's a safer technology, but the focal point is if it's new technology and it causes any
00:32:15
harm or any loss, it's worse versus looking at the calculus of the whole. Have we lost that ability as a country?
00:32:22
And how do we grade leadership to rethink a risk-taking America again? Well, I don't know if we've lost it or
00:32:29
it's just the enumery of being selective about what industry or what form of transportation because on the automobile
00:32:35
side again, we'll track this year between 38 and 40,000 deaths on highways in America. Half of those are because of
00:32:42
impaired driving either from people texting or or uh you know impaired drug or alcohol use. And and apparently
00:32:49
everybody's okay with that because you know we lose a 100red people a day and there's never a story about it. I mean
00:32:55
more than 100 people a day, but you know if you lose 70 you lose 70 people in the
00:33:00
first first airline crash in 12 years in America and we're still talking about it
00:33:06
3 months later because because that somehow that is news and and people dying on highways is not and and in a
00:33:13
nuclear it's the same thing. Uh I I actually checked on this because of course we've had no n deaths from
00:33:18
anything related to nuclear power in our country. Uh yeah, in the in since inception, but the the best I can find
00:33:26
on the federal safety statistics is there's about 37 people that have died from getting angry at vending machines
00:33:33
and then pounding on them and then they tip over and fall on them literally and they and they crush them. Where do you
00:33:38
find that? Yeah, you just go go search online, but it's it's out there thing. But I mean it's like so so
00:33:45
it's like if you're if you're afraid of nuclear, you know, then take a wide birth. If you see a vending machine,
00:33:51
steer clear of it. And or the same thing. I mean, I when I was uh when I was, you know, campaigning for President
00:33:56
Trump and I said I was pro- nuclear and someone said, "Well, would you know, oh,
00:34:00
really? But would you live near one? Would you raise your family near one?" And I said, "Well, I would." And they
00:34:04
said, "Well, how can you say that?" I said, "Well, I raised them on a farm in North Dakota and our farm was near a
00:34:09
road." And they said, "What do you mean a road?" I said, "Well, there's it's more risky than a nuclear power plant."
00:34:14
Yeah. It's like way more. I said when the kids were out, if they were out on a, you know, going to going to a dance
00:34:19
at high school on Friday night, I was worried about them, not on the road, not not about anything else. Okay. So, the
00:34:24
the the the crisis that we're in from energy is not the only crisis America faced. We're facing a a debt and deficit
00:34:30
crisis um that's going to challenge this nation in ways we've never been challenged before. 38 trillion of debt,
00:34:36
$6.75 trillion budget, $2 trillion deficit. The numbers are staggering. It's frightening. There's a lot of
00:34:43
economic studies that show you can't tax more than 18% of GDP or else you lose GDP. We're at that
00:34:50
point. You've talked a lot about America's balance sheet as a way to unlock opportunity to grow GDP and grow
00:34:56
our way out of this deficit debt problem. Talk a little bit about what you mean when you say America's balance
00:35:01
sheet and what does that entail. Well, first of all, I love David the way you're framing it. And I would just add,
00:35:07
you know, that two trillion dollar deficit means that in the last year of the Biden administration, 2,000 billion
00:35:15
2,000 billion more was spent than came in. And and coming in, we have other ways to bring money in other than taxes.
00:35:23
And how is that possible? Well, it's because of America's balance sheet. Our balance sheet isn't just the financial
00:35:28
assets. It includes the fact that just within Interior alone, there's 500 million acres of surface land. within
00:35:34
throw in US forest service add another 200 million that's like nearly a third of US land yes and then we have uh 700
00:35:42
million acres of subsurface sometimes connect continuous and some discontinuous but we own all these
00:35:48
minerals that are underground uh then there's about uh you know between 2 and a half and three billion acres of
00:35:54
offshore that contain critical minerals and oil and gas minerals all of that is under the federal purview if interior
00:36:01
was a standalone company it would have the largest balance sheet in the world by so far. I mean, you know, Saudi A
00:36:07
Ramco wouldn't even come close. And then you'd say, okay, well, if that's if you
00:36:10
have this this, we all know about the $ 38 trillion in debt. It gets, you know, hammered all the time. It's used in
00:36:17
campaign things. But I was uh, you know, even at the Hill and Valley conference this week, I
00:36:23
without asking the audience, okay, how many, you know, how many know the 38 trillion? Everybody, how many of you
00:36:28
know what our balance sheet on the asset side is? Well, nobody knows because none
00:36:33
of the senators know because we haven't calculated, but we're working in the Trump administration to try to come up
00:36:38
with that number. And in and one estimate this week is we think just on a just on public land alone, there may be
00:36:44
8 trillion dollars of coal resources. And I know coal is sometimes, you know, it's a dirty word. It is. But, you know,
00:36:50
it's uh we need to also remember that if we're going to have steel in this country and we need and we all agree we
00:36:55
have need to have a steel industry. We need to have for defense. We need to have it for advanced manufacturing. We
00:37:00
also need to have a shipping industry that comes back to our country. You need steel for that. Well, guess what you
00:37:05
make steel out of? Well, part of it you make it out of you need you need coke. And coke comes from a certain kind of
00:37:10
metallurgical coal. So, if we kill the coal industry, you can't have a steel industry unless we're going to have
00:37:15
somebody ship metallurgical coal to us. In the coal resources around our country, the coal is also filled up with
00:37:21
the critical and rare earth minerals uh that we need to go in this battle with China. Particularly now with China just
00:37:26
in weeks ago putting on export controls on a number of minerals that we need for
00:37:31
doing things like you know batteries that we need for electric motors for whether it's cars or home drills or or
00:37:37
you know rockets missiles. I mean the the the the magnets that are at risk now because we became so dependent on China.
00:37:45
So when you take a look at the the this balance sheet you know we need it for defense, we need it for national
00:37:50
security. But theore Roosevelt who was be instrumental in putting away these hundreds of millions of acres in the
00:37:56
original intention that said this was there for the benefit and use of the American people. And it al he also said
00:38:03
very explicitly that that conservation meant meant you know sustainable use not just preservation because we saw what
00:38:11
happened you know following the uh the the extremism that that landed around the spotted owl which is oh we've got to
00:38:19
stop not just the harvesting of certain old growth timber and it killed the timber industry in America and when we
00:38:26
killed it back in the 1990s uh then and it has never come back. And now what's happening 30 years later because those
00:38:34
timber companies that would get a lease from the federal government, they would have the responsibility for going in and
00:38:39
thinning and cleaning and responsibly managing that and they would send a check to the federal government. We'd
00:38:45
have revenue instead of revenue today, we have expense. We burn more board feet of lumber in this country every year
00:38:53
right now than we are harvesting because because of the wildfire because of uncontrolled wildfires. And then the
00:38:58
uncontrolled wildfires are some of our biggest emitters, you know, in terms of CO2. You burn a tree, it releases the
00:39:03
carbon. So again, the folks that wanted to, you know, reduce emissions, save the
00:39:08
planet, you know, help the wildlife, we're actually doing the opposite of that. So we have to get back in the
00:39:13
business of of, you know, grazing our lands, managing our forest, developing our our our resources and our critical
00:39:20
minerals, getting back. We have to mine again in this country. Mining can't be, you know, if we want to be a strong
00:39:25
country, we've got to do that. Uh, and of course oil and gas. You do all of those things that I just named. All of
00:39:30
those involve selling a lease to a private company. They send a check and then they develop the resource and then
00:39:36
they send us a royalty. The little company that I just met with this morning out on the platform on the Gulf
00:39:41
of America in its inception. This is a company with 450 people. They have sent 1.2 billion dollars to the US Treasury
00:39:48
over the life of their company. You know, show me a tech company that's done that. I mean, impossible for a lease to
00:39:53
access that resource. Well, the the lease and and they they lease it up front. So, they write a check up front
00:39:58
to have the to have the opportunity to take the risk. They take all the risk. They build the platform. They hire the
00:40:04
people. They do the seismic. They figure it out. And if they hit a dry hole, it's
00:40:07
all on them. Taxpayer nothing. But if they score, then they pay us a royalty. And what do we use that for? We use it
00:40:13
for, you know, we use it for paying down the deficit and the debt. We also use it
00:40:16
for coastal restoration. You know, along this beautiful Gulf Coast, you do coastal restoration. With that, the
00:40:21
dollars go back to the states. the largest funer of coastal restoration in this country is the oil and gas industry
00:40:28
uh you know here in the Gulf. So again the it's you know if like I said if you if you've driven on an in on an
00:40:34
interstate highway in your life or if you've gone to a public school you should send a thank you note to the the
00:40:40
natural resource industries because they were helping to pay for that. But what's
00:40:43
happened if I if there's a hundred trillion dollars on the balance sheet, just say that. And and now and you're a
00:40:49
finance, tech, venture guy, you could say, "Okay, we'll we'll allow uh the federal government to be the worst. You
00:40:55
guys can have a 1% return on your natural assets. That would be $1 trillion." Okay, last year, Interior
00:41:03
brought in 22 billion. So, so we're off we're off by a factor of 50 from having bad performance on getting a return on
00:41:10
investment for the American people. I guess you know the assets only count if you can access them, utilize them,
00:41:15
monetize them. We all know from a finance perspective there's goodwill that could sit on an asset line and
00:41:21
doesn't mean anything at the end of the day. If you can't monetize it, it's not worth much. So, how do you think about
00:41:27
the target you're going after? Is it a trillion? And then when do you develop and deliver a plan to the American
00:41:33
people that says, "Guys, here's our target. Here's when we're going to get there." Do you think about it that way?
00:41:38
We don't have a target yet because we don't even know what the base unused resources. I mean, we're trying to get
00:41:42
our hands around, you know, what what is our timber worth? What is our, you know,
00:41:46
oil and gas? And that goes back to the core mission of the US Geologic Survey. Its original core mission was to map.
00:41:52
So, when we say it's, you know, it's it's map, baby, map. uh because then that can tell you, you know, where
00:41:58
you're supposed to mine, baby mine, where you're supposed to drill, baby drill. But getting back to the mapping
00:42:01
and working with the private sector, who's outstripped, who's outstripped. I mean, ground penetrating radar, uh, is,
00:42:08
you know, a new advancement, uh, that's, you know, more accurate than seismic and
00:42:12
less intrusive. And we need to really understand what America's balance sheet is. And some of that's going to take
00:42:17
some work for us to get out there and really survey it. And, and then when we have that, that's public domain. publish
00:42:22
that information and that'll help the private sector steer where they should put their resources to help develop
00:42:27
this. Let's talk about mining. The United States used to mine. You and I had a dinner a couple weeks ago. You
00:42:34
gave me a statistic which I hadn't heard before, which is we only graduate 200 people in degrees in mining today. Why
00:42:42
did we stop mining? Why did we stop developing our own natural resources and shift to a model where we're buying
00:42:48
dependent and now have critical supply chain dependencies? What happened in the United States? Well, I think there was
00:42:55
there was some, you know, our country was a powerful and great minor and it was when you think back to, you know,
00:43:01
even the early 1900s, you think about where we were, you know, what we were doing in gold and silver and then, you
00:43:06
know, through World War II, uh, and even up into the 1980s, we were still very strong as a mining country and a mining
00:43:13
industry. And then and then uh there were some environmental issues that environmental awareness you had some
00:43:18
super fund sites and and it just became you know one of the focal points of the attack of of uh of hey then it sort of
00:43:25
was all a sudden all mining was bad as opposed to one operator in one location uh that you know maybe wasn't maintained
00:43:32
right and so then I think whether it was young people choosing careers or whether
00:43:36
it was press whatever but then the regulatory environment piled on in a heavy way to the point that you know
00:43:42
it's just amazing one of the resolution copper. We're just in the process now of
00:43:46
issuing them a permit. It's taken about three months here in the Trump administration. They started this
00:43:52
process over 29 years ago. Wow. I mean, this is this is this has gone three decade long saga to open up a copper
00:43:59
mine. And guess what? We need copper more than we've ever needed before. I mean, it's it's part of, you know, every
00:44:04
electric motor. It's a part of all of the advanced stuff that we're building. And and so, I mean, it's thrilling that
00:44:10
we're going to open a copper mine in America. And then some of the mines that have barely hung on uh but are still
00:44:15
going whether it's gold or silver uh or others uranium in some cases uh along with that mining process there are
00:44:23
critical minerals that are adjacent. I mean we can add a critical minerals refining because it's not just that we
00:44:28
aren't mining those raw materials. China has got the corner on the refining not just mine to refine. So when they're in
00:44:35
they're in the you know the the Congo in Africa pulling out those those those those rich research rich minerals
00:44:42
they're bringing those back to China. We've got examples of companies in America that were mining in America but
00:44:47
there was no process. They were sending it to China and China was doing the refining. Well now we're in a we're
00:44:52
literally in a in a in a war around these critical minerals which we need for defense. Uh and and we don't have a
00:44:57
stockpile. So part of what we're concerned with right now and said you know how do we get capital flowing back
00:45:02
to mining? How do we start building stockpiles in America the way we have the strategic petroleum reserve across
00:45:08
the top 20 most important critical minerals? And then how do we derisk it, you know, if someone's going to get into
00:45:14
mining? And do we need uh like a sovereign risk insurance, but not because you're working overseas because
00:45:20
you're working here because the next administration may use an EO to wipe out your mine. Uh, and so again, giving
00:45:26
giving the capital providers the confidence that if somehow they're regulated out of business, they'll get
00:45:31
compensated through an insurance program. And what about in your role administering the EPA, looking out for
00:45:38
environmental standards, protecting our environment, protecting our communities,
00:45:41
there were toxic super fund sites. What's the thinking from your point of view on making sure that we're doing
00:45:47
this in a clean way and how important that is in this calculus? Well, Lee Zeldon, uh, our EPA administrator is is
00:45:53
also a key part of the energy dominance council, as is about half of the cabinet. I mean, we've got, you know,
00:45:59
Howard Lutnik, Scott Bessant, uh, Brook Rollins, you know, from a with US forest
00:46:04
everything. There's literally about half the cabinet. Uh, transportation, Sean Duffy's on there. Uh, everybody's, you
00:46:10
know, part of this team of trying to solve this larger complex thing. But I would say that the one thing we forget
00:46:15
about when we often there's these national discussions which is that every state also has a regulatory environment.
00:46:22
And in my time as governor, one thing I learned was that there was I had I never
00:46:27
met a bureaucrat from DC that cared more about the land, the water, the soil health or the air in our state than the
00:46:33
people that lived there and the people that worked for our own DEEQ. And so when people say, "Oh, you know, we're
00:46:38
reducing headcount at the EPA. The world's going to fall apart." No, we have two issues with regulation. One is
00:46:44
is the overreach which is you have people going beyond the law on their original charter and regulating things
00:46:50
you know regulate when they're supposed to be regulating water and I need and a water permit should be about turbidity
00:46:57
and temperature and is the fish in this area going to be affected as opposed to oh oh we're not giving this permit
00:47:04
because we're worried about climate change is because the thing in your pipe is natural gas. I mean that's a real
00:47:08
example. That's how Cuomo knocked out a a permit that was, you know, way beyond what the law said. I mean, if there was
00:47:15
an issue with how the company was crossing a water course, like 38,000 other LG crossings of of water courses
00:47:23
in America, if there's a real problem, then tell them that and they'll horizontally direct drill it 50 feet
00:47:28
below the bottom of the river. It'll never touch the river and give them a permit. Instead, they'd be like, "No,
00:47:32
you know, there's no permit because we're concerned about climate change." That's overreach. But the overlap that
00:47:37
occurs every day is that the federal government infrastructure is overlapping with the states. And there isn't a need
00:47:43
to do both of those things. And and you might, you know, go to path for, you know, two years, three years and get
00:47:49
your federal permit and then find out, oh, that a state like New York is is not going to provide it. Or you might get a
00:47:55
a permit in six months in a in a state that's that can efficiently do permitting and get all the work done and
00:48:01
take care of everything and then find out that the federal government's going to sit on it for an entire presidential
00:48:06
term because they're ideologically opposed. When we do that to ourselves, then we have no chance against a country
00:48:12
like China that is focused on on on an outcome which is they're going to achieve prosperity. they're going to
00:48:18
achieve uh all of their environmental goals by having the power to have all the solutions as opposed to uh the uh
00:48:25
the environment we have now which restricts that that innovation. President Trump's uh just finished his
00:48:30
100 days in office. Are you glad you took the job? What's been most surprising for you since you've been in
00:48:37
the role? Well, I'm I'm having a blast. Uh and I'm thrilled to be in this position where we can have an impact.
00:48:43
you know, you get up every day and it's a little bit like the old uh, you know, World War II uh, you know, Marines in
00:48:49
the Pacific would say, you know, the bad, you know, we're in a foxhole. The bad we're in a foxhole, we're on a
00:48:53
beach. The bad news is, uh, you know, we're surrounded. The good news is we can attack in any direction. And and so
00:48:59
every day you can get up and go make a difference in in people's lives. And and that's and for anybody that's in tech or
00:49:05
anybody that's listening, you know, that poo poos public service, they ought to really think about the fact, I mean, we
00:49:10
need people that are, as Teddy Roosevelt said, that are willing to get in the arena because in these jobs, uh, that
00:49:15
are, you know, really purposeful, you can make a difference for a lot of people thing. But what's surprising
00:49:20
about the job was I I knew that the from a tech standpoint because I lived through it eight years in North Dakota
00:49:26
where where where state government wasn't up to speed on just basic technology and basic business systems
00:49:33
and all the things that that uh that that reduce productivity and create uh I say agony for state or federal
00:49:42
employees. I mean, we we asked them to do mind-numbing and soul sucking work for like 20% of their time because we
00:49:48
haven't given them the basic tools that everybody in the private sector has had.
00:49:52
And so, it's not like that anybody's bad a bad people, but you could get rid of 20% of this of the quote work by just
00:49:59
bringing in the tools that are there. I mean, you could have 20% less people, then the people would have a more
00:50:03
meaningful, more purposeful job, more productive. Yeah. All of those things. And so, what I thought was it can't be
00:50:09
worse than it was in North Dakota. And then I got into the at least in the department of interior and uh we are we
00:50:16
are further behind. I mean we're going to you know this is a the land of you know decommissioning main mainframes and
00:50:22
then we could just you know take them straight to the Smithsonian to the 1980s exhibit. I had dinner with a couple CIOS
00:50:28
CTOs that are that have now been put in the government and um the stories are incredible. Totally echo what you what
00:50:34
you're saying. Secretary Bergam, thank you for this opportunity to join you here on this beautiful day. I really
00:50:39
appreciate the work you're doing. It's fantastic to hear that there's someone in the administration with your
00:50:44
perspective, your experience doing this work. And so I just want to say thank you. And David, I want to return that. I
00:50:50
want to thank you and all your compatriots at Allin because uh you're you're really uh allowing an opportunity
00:50:57
for America to have a dialogue that goes deeper than the sound bite. Yeah. And I
00:51:00
I think that all of you may underestimate the impact that Allin has had. Uh I know that uh that it's a
00:51:07
you're influencing policy. You're you're you know helping people understand the complexity and both the opportunities
00:51:13
and the threats of big things that really matter to all Americans. And so and and thank you for being so well
00:51:18
informed and thanks for coming all the way down here to Louisiana to share this beautiful day on the coast. Thanks.
00:51:23
Thank you. [Music] I'm going all in.