00:00:00
All right, everybody. We've got an incredible guest today. Governor Josh Shapiro is here. Obviously, Governor of
00:00:06
Pennsylvania. He's got uh record set setting popularity in Pennsylvania right
00:00:11
now. 60% approval at least. He's a moderate. Uh he's focused on getting done, GSD. He's tough on crime. Ranked
00:00:19
number one according to my notes on charging Medicaid fraud. He's pro data center. He's got a nuance take on
00:00:25
Israel. And he's a baller apparently. Cut to the tape. >> Got him. >> There he is.
00:00:34
>> Oh my god. >> Here's your governor. >> Look at those short shorts. Holy cow.
00:00:39
>> Incredible. Wow. It's the late '8s. >> And based on the VHS tape, this looks
00:00:45
like the 80s. >> Yeah, that was 1990, I think. >> Look at that. Playing the point.
00:00:51
>> There you go. >> Very nice. Very nice. All right. >> That was back when people shot mid-range
00:00:57
jumpers. They don't do that anymore, man. They don't do that. They should.
00:01:01
>> All threes. Yeah. I mean, we have a couple of players and and we were talking before the show started. You're
00:01:06
obviously a big Philly fan. I'm a big Nick fan. So, I will see you at the games. We're We're on a collision
00:01:11
course. >> By the way, with all due respect, and I hope we have a good conversation here. I
00:01:15
hope to never see you at the games because if you're showing up in Philly with all your Knicks crap on, I'm not
00:01:20
going to be a happy guy. Oh, look at a selfie courtside with my friend uh Dave who is one of the co-owners of the team
00:01:28
who's a mutual friend of ours um who I think egg you on a little bit to come on
00:01:32
the program here. >> He did which I appreciate. >> He said go on all in. They have
00:01:36
thoughtful conversations and anxious to have on with you. So thanks for having me.
00:01:40
>> Yeah. There's so much for us to talk about but I I thought I would start with
00:01:44
your track record in Pennsylvania. And the reason I wanted to start there is because there's a bit of a collision
00:01:48
course happening right now between you and Gavin. Gavin's got what I would describe as a variable um tenure here in
00:01:56
California. Um I left California for Texas because I just thought it was a bit of a disaster, but you're doing
00:02:01
great in your state. And that's in the face of New York, my hometown, New Jersey, Boston, like losing a lot of
00:02:09
business leaders. Uh and you've been scoring, you know, some big wins. So when you look at your track record,
00:02:15
maybe you could just educate the audience on what you've gotten done and maybe in comparison to what's happening
00:02:24
in those other states uh with other Democratic leaders because you seem to be maybe the exception to this rule that
00:02:31
Democrats aren't getting it done on a business level. >> Well, look, I'm proud of what we've
00:02:35
done. I'm not in comparison with Gavin or any other Democratic governor. I'll
00:02:39
just talk about what we've done here in Pennsylvania. We are a progrowth state.
00:02:44
We want businesses to come here and grow. I'm proud of the fact that we've
00:02:48
created more jobs in all but two states in the entire country. We've cut taxes
00:02:52
seven different times to be more competitive. Cut taxes for small businesses. Also for families trying to
00:02:58
afford child care for seniors, for working Pennsylvania. Um we've taken our permitting process. That's the the
00:03:06
usually the the ticket you need say to build your building, right? If you're
00:03:10
trying to build something here in Pennsylvania, we were bottom five in the country. I think we're now a national
00:03:14
model, easily top five in terms of speed. We've got a money back guarantee on all of our permits. If we don't get
00:03:21
you your permit in time, we'll give you your money back. And fun fact, we've
00:03:25
issued 40 million permits during my time as governor. We've only had to issue
00:03:29
five refunds, meaning only five of those permits were late. Um, we are now the only growing economy in the northeastern
00:03:37
part of the United States. At the same time, we're investing in workforce development, especially if you don't
00:03:43
have a college degree, tripling funding for VOTE and apprenticeship programs and
00:03:48
understanding the need to take the workforce we have today and prepare them for um jobs here in the Commonwealth of
00:03:55
Pennsylvania. I'm proud that we've got an unemployment rate below the national
00:03:58
rate consistently over the last 32 months. I think it is really critical that every kid born in Pennsylvania gets
00:04:06
a great quality education, that that kid has a safe street to walk down to get to
00:04:11
school or wherever else they're going, and that they've got a job in the
00:04:14
community that they love. Those to me are the core foundational principles. It's what we focus on every single day.
00:04:21
Our mantra, as you said at the top, is GSD, get done. Those are the areas where we focus on getting done. And I think
00:04:28
we're putting a lot of points on the board every single day that's having a
00:04:31
meaningful difference in people's lives. >> How are you getting that done? Just take
00:04:35
the permitting as an example. Why is it so dysfunctional in California? You know, obviously I'm an investor in
00:04:42
technology companies and we just saw red tape after red tape. Then on housing, it's incredibly hard to build anything.
00:04:49
The nimiism, you know, if you cast a shadow, nothing can be built. And then housing prices keep going up. And you
00:04:55
know, if you want to hire a nanny or a teacher uh or you know, if a firefighter moves in, they can't even afford a home
00:05:02
in the community that they're servicing. So, how did you fix this? >> And why can't other states not fix it?
00:05:11
>> I mean, look, I I can't speak to how it's done in California. I'll just tell
00:05:14
you in Pennsylvania, the way we start the conversation is by recognizing permits are critically important to
00:05:21
economic development and to creating jobs. Right? If we the government can move at the speed of business, if I can
00:05:28
give you as a CEO predictability to know your business is going to be open in six
00:05:33
months instead of three years, right? Because the permit took too long, then you're going to want to invest here. So,
00:05:39
we sort of start with the important idea that permits matter. Second, when you come into our state government to get
00:05:45
your permit, let's just use building a building as an example, right? We want
00:05:50
to get to yes. We still want to protect the environment and public health and public safety and we do that, but we
00:05:55
want to get to yes. So, our attitude has shifted. Third, we've got to have that
00:06:00
money back guarantee because that money back guarantee holds the bureaucracy accountable. Now, I will tell you that
00:06:06
some of this we've done administratively, meaning I've signed executive orders and we've made those
00:06:11
changes. But on other things, we've worked with the legislature to pass new laws to speed up our permitting. And it
00:06:17
hasn't always been easy. understand I'm a Democrat as a governor. I've got a
00:06:21
divided legislature. I was the only governor for a while with a divided legislature. Now there's one other. I've
00:06:27
got a Senate led by Republicans by just two seats and a House led by Democrats by just one seat. But this is an area
00:06:34
where I've been able to bring Democrats and Republicans together in order to
00:06:38
make progress in terms of passing this um this permitting reform. And again, proof is in the pudding. What we are
00:06:44
seeing is that businesses are coming here and the economy is growing. Let me give you one more example. This may seem
00:06:51
really small to you, but it's a big deal. Okay. When I talk about a permit, if you want to be a barber in
00:06:57
Pennsylvania, you need a permit or technically it's called a license, but I put it all in your
00:07:02
>> some kind of certificate. Yeah. >> Right. The day I took office, it took 20
00:07:07
days for a barber to get their permit to be able to go out and cut hair. Today, you get it same day. you get it within
00:07:14
that day. That may seem silly to you, but but it but but understand I called my barber. I asked him, I said, "How
00:07:19
many heads do you cut a day?" He said, "About 10 a day at 20 bucks a pop. 200
00:07:24
bucks a day for two for 20 days." That's real money. That's thousands of dollars
00:07:30
that we're putting into that barber's pocket just because we got them their
00:07:34
permit more quickly. So, I know it may sound nerdy. It may sound wonky, but whether you're building some big
00:07:40
building that's going to house hundreds of workers or thousands of people who
00:07:45
are living there, or whether you're the local barber that everybody needs to go
00:07:48
to to get to get their haircut, this stuff matters. And the quicker you are, the more jobs you create and the more
00:07:55
money you put in people's pockets. It also matters I think on a philosophical
00:07:59
basis of who is the government working for themselves and their timelines or for the people who put them in office.
00:08:06
And I think that's the philosophy just at least watching it happen in New York
00:08:11
and California is the opposite of what you described. There's no sense of urgency and there's almost a situation
00:08:17
where people believe it's intractable that they can't change it. And so that's
00:08:22
I think such an important point is that you actually made it happen. I think that's a great point. I I want to focus
00:08:28
on what you just said there. Um first off, I I start the conversation believing that government can be a force
00:08:33
for good in people's lives. Second, that we got to figure out a way to get to
00:08:37
yes, whether it's building a building or whether it's getting that mom the
00:08:41
support she needs for her kid with autism who needs support. We got to figure out a way to get to yes and get
00:08:47
them um that help. Then you you mentioned uh in your question the way people get I I I don't recall if you use
00:08:53
the word frustrated or or they feel you know um that that government's sort of
00:08:58
holding them back right not sure >> it's oppressive in a way right just if
00:09:02
you have that experience three or four times whether it's at the airport or getting your driver's license or getting
00:09:07
the haircuting you know certificate like it's just oppressive over time you just
00:09:11
feel like the government's working against you. >> Yeah. And what does that what does that
00:09:14
person feel after they try and get their permit, they can't get it, they try and
00:09:18
open up their small business, it won't work. They get frustrated by they get
00:09:22
pissed. And then not only are they pissed at that agency or that governor or they're pissed at, you know, that
00:09:30
state government, they also grow, and this is an important point, a little more cynical about government and a
00:09:37
little bit more frustrated about the process. And when that happens, I think that that creates more distrust in our
00:09:43
system. And it creates more opportunity for, I think, frankly, dark voices on extremes to come in and take advantage
00:09:52
of people. I I I find that, you know, if we get it done the right way, if we process things quickly, if we get people
00:09:58
to Yes. then maybe a byproduct of that is a little bit less cynicism in our system.
00:10:04
>> Yeah. and the horseshoe theory that you're kind of referencing there. These
00:10:08
two extremes just taking over the conversation, that's not what the majority of the country wants. They they
00:10:14
want to just live in a high functioning society. It was curious how you look at fraud. Um waste, fraud, and abuse. my
00:10:23
friend Elon to drop a name, you know, did this doge thing. It was a little controversial, but I think what we've
00:10:28
seen is, hey, 20 30% of every tax dollar collected is wasted. Some of it's fraud,
00:10:35
some of it's just incompetence. It could be anything on that spectrum. And this
00:10:39
seems to be the Republican party's rallying cry to beat the Democrats going into California and prosecuting people,
00:10:46
Michigan, etc. You have seem to have gotten ahead of this. You've been doing
00:10:50
this for years. So maybe you could explain your take on fighting fraud, specifically healthcare or in other
00:10:57
areas. >> Yeah, look, look, I think we've got to focus on rooting fraud out of the
00:11:02
system. Now, you and I may differ on, hey, should we spend a dollar on that initiative or not? And by the way, those
00:11:09
are super healthy differences and we should argue that out. We should debate that. But where we should have no
00:11:14
difference is if someone's stealing that dollar instead of going to its intended
00:11:19
purpose, we should be against that. And and I am. Prior to serving as governor and having the privilege of sitting here
00:11:26
uh in this office serving the good people of Pennsylvania, I was the state's attorney general. And you'll
00:11:31
remember back during COVID, there were those PPP loans to help our small businesses and other businesses stay
00:11:38
afloat. We'd probably agree like good idea, right? We got to keep businesses
00:11:42
afloat. But during that time, I went out and prosecuted a whole bunch of people for stealing that PPP money, for not
00:11:48
using it for its intended purposes. Here as governor, I've maintained a similar
00:11:53
focus through my office of inspector general, rooting out fraud, through making sure, by the way, we're not
00:11:59
fronting you money when you're going out and providing, say, human services. You
00:12:03
have to submit for reimbursements, and you've got to make sure you prove that
00:12:07
you did that work. When we find that someone took advantage of the system, we're referring them to prosecutors. I'm
00:12:13
proud of the fact that we've had more Medicaid fraud prosecutions in Pennsylvania, I think any other state.
00:12:19
Maybe there was one other. We're we're certainly toward the top of that list.
00:12:22
Proud of the fact that we've identified that. We've sent it to prosecutors and
00:12:26
and we've addressed it. If we can address it administratively, we do. If not, we understand that those things
00:12:31
need to be prosecuted. We should have a zero tolerance policy for that. We should make sure that if we're going to
00:12:37
utilize a hardearned dollar of a taxpayer for a purpose like providing someone with health care that they need,
00:12:45
we got to make sure that that dollar makes its way to that person so they get their healthcare. And you know, our
00:12:50
folks are working really hard on that in Pennsylvania. So pro business, uh, less regulation,
00:12:57
lowering taxes, eliminating fraud, um, and all of this is just getting done in the state. And then, you know, the
00:13:06
next piece that in at least my community, people who are creators of businesses, venture capitalists, angel
00:13:12
investors, founders, we pay our taxes, pay a lot of taxes, uh, depending on which state you live in. And then
00:13:19
there's this, >> you should be paying more taxes in Pennsylvania, man. stop paying them
00:13:23
elsewhere. >> Yeah. Well, the and you know, we then get struck with this California law and
00:13:30
uh a lot of my friends have moved to Austin where I live now. They just said suddenly, hey, we want to seize 5% of
00:13:35
whatever you got. Uh you already paid your taxes. You haven't paid capital gains on some of this equity you own in
00:13:41
your company. Maybe it's paper wealth. Maybe it's your company went public now
00:13:44
and you could sell some of it, but you might cradle the stock if you do. uh and Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders and
00:13:51
California, all trying to seize assets. And this has really hit the creator, the business creators in a in a really
00:14:00
offensive way to the point at which they're moving. We lost California lost Sergey Travis from Uber just fleeing
00:14:10
fleeing on mass in the last 12 months. Do you believe in these wealth taxes and do you believe in seizing people's
00:14:17
assets on gains they've never uh received? It's a it seems to be getting
00:14:22
momentum. >> I mean, I'll just say we've cut taxes seven times in Pennsylvania. We've got
00:14:27
one of the lowest income taxes in the entire country. That's why I'm joking
00:14:31
with you. You should come to Pennsylvania and locate here. Uh and and look, I mean, that kind of tax that
00:14:37
you're describing is not something we have here. It's certainly not something
00:14:42
on on my agenda. I do think people need to pay their fair share. I think you'd
00:14:46
agree with that. We need to make sure that we are easing the burden on those who are working and who are at the
00:14:52
lowest, you know, sort of economic point on the scale. And we got to make sure that folks at the top are paying their
00:14:57
their fair share uh in order to to sustain our society. And I think we've struck a really good balance here in
00:15:04
Pennsylvania. And I think our growth numbers bear that out. Uh I think seeing more people coming to this state bears
00:15:11
that out and I think there's an important stat. One of the things you you cited in those um entrepreneurs as
00:15:17
as you were going through your question is you know these are people who kind of
00:15:21
started with a dream with an idea that you know someone might have looked at and said geez I I don't know about that
00:15:27
but they stuck with it and and they built up their companies. we see here in Pennsylvania, particularly when it comes
00:15:34
to life sciences, right? We're seeing people plant a flag here in Pennsylvania. Start with an idea that
00:15:40
others might think, boy, I I don't know about that. But then because of our tax
00:15:45
environment in Pennsylvania, because of our progrowth approach in Pennsylvania, we're seeing more of those small
00:15:51
businesses, more of those small companies, especially in life sciences, survive that sort of valley where a lot
00:15:57
of those companies go out of business and sustain themselves here because again, I think we're showing that we're
00:16:03
progrowth. We've got a smart tax environment for them. And by the way, after we invest in them, after we give
00:16:09
them a shot, and after they do well, we expect them to pay their fair share back
00:16:13
to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. And I think that's that's the approach we've
00:16:17
taken, and it's working. >> Yeah. And so, if you're not in favor of
00:16:20
a wealth tax, what would you do to deal with maybe this disparity in uh wealth that we're seeing? There was just some
00:16:29
>> statistics that came out the other day. I'm sure you saw them. The upper middle
00:16:33
class has just been surging. middle class going down a bit and people in the lower rungs going down as well. So
00:16:41
people may feel like they're not making enough money but in reality what's
00:16:45
happening is people feel other people have made a tremendous amount of money which is true because of equity holdings
00:16:51
are growing much better than salaries ever will and only 40% only 50% of the country really participates in a
00:16:58
meaningful way in equities. The other 40 50% don't have any exposure to that. So,
00:17:04
how would you deal with somebody making, you know, a hundred billion dollars, $500 billion, a trillion dollars? Yeah.
00:17:11
And never selling their equity or maybe not selling it for 20 years. How do you think about that?
00:17:15
>> Let me make sort of three points, a Pennsylvania point, and a couple broader
00:17:18
points. One, you cannot have a national economy that works if it's only working
00:17:24
for the 1%. And you pointed out in your question, the wage disparity and the disparity of income. You have to make
00:17:31
sure that there is opportunity for those at all different income levels. And look, as we sit here today, if you're
00:17:38
making a million versus $50,000, take a million, you're going to be able to buy
00:17:42
some stuff that someone at $50,000 can't buy, right? We sort of understand that.
00:17:48
But you got to have opportunity and you've got to have a level playing field
00:17:51
and you got to have a fair shot and you got to have a tax system that works in a
00:17:56
fair way. So that's sort of point one. Point two is here in Pennsylvania, we've
00:18:00
tried to address some of that economic disparity by passing the first ever working Pennians's tax credit. Sort of a
00:18:08
stateide earned income tax credit. So what we're saying is if you're working,
00:18:12
if you're going out and busting your home, we're going to put some money back
00:18:15
in your pocket. About 940,000, almost a million Pennians are going to qualify for a little over 800 bucks back in
00:18:23
their pockets. So that's going to help not only today with rising cost due to a
00:18:27
lot of these federal policies, but it's going to put money back in people's
00:18:30
pockets, allow them to make, you know, the the the investments they need to make in their everyday lives. Here's the
00:18:36
third point. What I would not do, because you asked what I would do, what I would not do is what President Trump
00:18:42
did at the federal level with an aid and assist from a whole bunch of sick and fancy in Congress by passing that budget
00:18:49
bill or the beautiful budget bill or whatever the hell they call it. In effect, what they did was they gave a
00:18:55
tax cut for those who simply do not need it. Right? And by the way, you know, in
00:19:01
the Palace of Truth and Justice, you talk to those folks, they know that they didn't need that tax cut. And what
00:19:07
happens as a result of that is I've got 500,000 Pennians who are going to lose their
00:19:15
health care. I've got 120,000 who have already lost their healthcare. another
00:19:20
320,000 or so. We're likely to lose Medicaid next year. I've got 26 rural hospitals
00:19:27
that are likely to shutter because these are rural hospitals that are working at
00:19:31
an operating deficit and they're relying so much on Medicaid, which has been
00:19:36
slashed by the federal government. So the idea that Donald Trump thought it was smart economic policy to give a tax
00:19:42
cut to those who don't need it and pay for it with those who were struggling
00:19:46
where and create even greater economic disparities that is going to hold back our entire economy. Just take those
00:19:53
500,000 people who aren't going to have healthcare. You're paying for that and
00:19:57
I'm paying for that with our private insurance. So what Donald Trump has done
00:20:01
is shifted that burden onto those who are struggling, making it harder for them, adding additional cost to the
00:20:09
middle class. And I think that that is that that lacks um frankly it's just dumb economic policy. I think it's going
00:20:17
to set us back. >> Here we are. Politics is on the table. Incredible track record you have. But
00:20:21
let's dive into the Democratic party. Uh I'm an independent but grew up Irish
00:20:26
Catholic in Brooklyn. So grew up a Democrat. probably have voted, you know, 6040 Democrat to Republican, but always
00:20:33
for a moderate, somebody who can get stuff done. That's why I find you quite
00:20:36
appealing. But let's talk about the Democratic party and the shellacking they got in the last election. And
00:20:43
specifically, what really troubled me, Biden didn't look like he was all there,
00:20:49
and uh I think we've all come to some consensus that he probably should have
00:20:52
dropped out earlier. But what was really disheartening to me was that they didn't
00:20:56
do the speedrun primary. they didn't do, you know, a capsule primary over that
00:21:02
July August period and gave you a shot and other people a shot, Pritsker, Buddhajudge, whoever to to compete for
00:21:09
the nomination. Was that a huge mistake for the Democratic party? And and when you look back on it, do you think that
00:21:16
might have cost you all the election? Well, look, I mean, I I actually wrote about this in in the book I I recently
00:21:21
published where, you know, it it became clear to me that um you know, Joe Biden seeking another term was probably not in
00:21:29
the best interest of the party or or the country. And I spoke to him directly about that and and bluntly about that.
00:21:35
Once he made the decision to drop out withund and whatever days to go, um you know, there there were not many
00:21:42
opportunities, I think, to have the kind of primary process that you're talking
00:21:46
about. I think it is important to look forward, right, and not look backwards. And you said in the last election,
00:21:52
Democrats took a shellacking. Actually, you look at 2025, it was the opposite. I
00:21:56
mean, the president's party, the Republican party got beat New Jersey, got beat in Virginia, got beat here in
00:22:01
Pennsylvania, where we won three state supreme court seats. So, obviously, there's a pendulum in in American
00:22:08
politics, and it's clearly uh swinging back. I think what's important is is
00:22:13
that we look forward and you I think it's also really important for our party
00:22:17
to have for my party to have a real debate and to have a real discussion about ideas. What are we for and what
00:22:23
are we willing to fight for? And I realize that process may at times look a little messy. I realize and I mean this
00:22:29
with the utmost respect. It gives folks like you on a podcast or on a show the ability to sort of pick apart, maybe try
00:22:36
and, you know, sort of parse words or point one Democrat at another and try and create conflict. But I would just
00:22:42
say that overall having this debate and having these issues be raised and having
00:22:48
disagreements, that's healthy for our party and ultimately I think our party's
00:22:52
poised to take back power and that will make us better at governing. To me, the whole purpose of running in an election
00:22:58
is getting a chance to govern, not just winning the election. And so, having these debates right now puts us in a
00:23:04
better position when we win those elections. And I'm running for re-election right now in Pennsylvania.
00:23:09
Going to work my ass off to win another term and earn the support of the people of Pennsylvania again. And I want to
00:23:14
continue to deliver, continue to um, you know, focus on these issues that matter
00:23:18
most. And having that debate, I think, is really healthy. >> Understand looking forward is most
00:23:23
important. But I got I got to go one more time in the review mirror here, which is Kla Harris was picked because
00:23:30
Biden had put out a criteria. Hey, I want to have a woman of color as my vice president. He was very explicit about
00:23:35
that. She could be qualified, unqualified, you know, moderately qualified. But then when she went out to
00:23:41
pick her VP, everybody was saying, "Hey, Josh Shapiro should be really in that
00:23:46
running." And she didn't pick you specifically because she didn't think
00:23:48
she could win with the Jewish vice president. >> Yeah. So I don't respectfully I I got to
00:23:54
push back on that and again I I've been very very open about >> push back on it. Yeah.
00:23:58
>> Yeah. And and respectfully, I'm not looking to, you know, be argumentative
00:24:00
with you, but I I >> was very very detailed and and and very specific in my book about this process.
00:24:09
And I was very grateful to the vice president for being considered and grateful to her for the candid dialogue
00:24:15
we had. And about 48 hours before she picked Tim Walls, I pulled out, made clear that that was not something I was
00:24:22
interested in doing. I thought I could serve the good people of Pennsylvania um and and do my best serving here as
00:24:28
governor in a job that I absolutely love. So, this wasn't about her not picking me because of my faith. Uh this
00:24:35
was about me um in the end not being interested in in that job. >> Really?
00:24:40
>> Sincerely, yes. Uh because it did seem like you wanted to to be considered for
00:24:44
that VP position. I called Sunday evening after she and I met and had a really candid conversation uh to inform
00:24:51
her that I did not want to be considered. I thought she had some really good people to choose from.
00:24:56
>> All right, so let's move forward then looking at winning. You're going to run
00:24:59
for governor again. Assume that's going to be a shoe in. You know, you got to do
00:25:03
the work, but it's pretty clear you're confidence there, my man. >> No, it's it's clear. But let's talk a
00:25:10
little bit about if you were to run for president, which people seem to think you've got a really good shot, but
00:25:16
you're below maybe national uh recognition right now. We're a little bit far behind. Gavin has come out. Hey,
00:25:24
I'm running. I'm running. Here I am. He's obviously uh in the poll position
00:25:28
for now. I want to understand the Democratic party and how they should proceed because just like the right
00:25:35
seemed to separate and you had this MAGA coalition uh and you had you know the traditional Republicans who were just a
00:25:42
gasast at Trump and his style and his behavior etc. Now that seems to have fractured again. You have America first,
00:25:50
America only. All the supporters who were supporting Trump now have come out vocally against him because of the war
00:25:58
in Iran. And then you have on your side this socialist democrat movement which I
00:26:02
think a lot of moderates are like well that's confusing. We don't want to have
00:26:07
more mandamis and that doesn't seem super appealing to a lot of moderates and the moderates are the ones who
00:26:12
flipped this election and they went the last election they went with Trump largely as opposed to going with Kamala.
00:26:18
handicap for me. What has to happen in the Democratic party to win in 2028? >> I understand why you're asking that. I I
00:26:26
will answer your question. I don't think anyone should be looking past these
00:26:30
midterms. And while I appreciate the confidence you you have in me and and maybe in the the broader dynamics here,
00:26:37
I think we need to have a national referendum in these midterms on what people see happening in Washington DC.
00:26:44
the the chaos and the corruption that exists there. I think people need to show up in record numbers and vote their
00:26:51
concerns. And so I'm not looking past the midterms. I do think it is important
00:26:56
that we acknowledge Donald Trump has injected chaos and corruption into everything he touched. And I think it's
00:27:05
important for me, for other democratic leaders in this country to be able to show what calm, competent governance can
00:27:15
actually deliver for people. That's what I'm going to be talking about in these
00:27:18
midterms as I seek reelection. I think it is important to paint an alternative picture to the chaos Donald Trump has
00:27:26
created. One where you can actually grow the economy. You can make our communities safer. We didn't talk about
00:27:31
this yet, but we've hired 2,000 more police officers. invested in community violence prevention and violent crime is
00:27:38
down 12%. Fatal gun violence is down 42% in our commonwealth. Um we've invested
00:27:43
in public education and by the way scores are up. Truency is down. Um we're moving up on the list. We're about 10th
00:27:52
um according to consumer affairs in the quality of public education. I think we've got to show that there is an
00:27:57
alternative to Donald Trump's chaos, to his cruelty, to his corruption. And you're seeing that um I think certainly
00:28:05
in my state and I think you're seeing it in other states as well. And we need to
00:28:08
paint that alternative picture. >> So TW 26 is certainly going to be a referendum on the first two years of
00:28:14
this presidency which was extremely popular for the first n months or so. People felt really good about the
00:28:21
economy. some people >> and that well I think the his polling was great but there was this tinge I
00:28:28
think is pretty accurate to say the tariffs felt like those were chaotic. >> Yeah.
00:28:33
>> Then you get the ice situation that feels very chaotic. Then you go to this
00:28:38
war with Iran and that feels like a peak chaotic moment that we're in here in
00:28:42
week six of this. So, it's certainly going to be a referendum on Trump and it
00:28:46
feels like all the Democrats have to do is sit back and say like, >> look, is this what you want? Gas prices
00:28:53
up, inflation, but you're saying they have to paint another picture. Paint that picture for me. What is that
00:28:58
picture? >> I think on both sides of what you just said, Donald Trump chose to push the
00:29:03
tariff button. Right. Yeah. And as a result here in Pennsylvania, what we're
00:29:07
seeing is coffee prices are up 30%, beef is up 19%. OJ orange juice is up 9%. The
00:29:15
fertilizers my farmers rely on here in Pennsylvania up 36%. So we're seeing whether you're a farmer,
00:29:22
whether you're, you know, a dad just trying to cook dinner for his kids, whatever the case may be, everything
00:29:28
costs more because of the the recklessness and the chaotic approach Donald Trump's taking our economy with
00:29:34
these tariffs. Obviously, this war has spiked gas prices up today about 415, 416 here in Pennsylvania, similar across
00:29:43
the country, probably years before those gas prices come down, even if the war, you know, hopefully. ends, you know,
00:29:51
very very soon. And so I think it is important, yes, to point that out. The way Donald Trump's policies have hurt
00:29:58
the American people, have hurt our farmers, have hurt our small businesses. The point I was making a moment ago is I
00:30:05
think that's part of the conversation. The other part of the conversation is,
00:30:08
okay, well, what are you doing to make people's lives better? >> Yeah. What? So what what should the top
00:30:12
three things be? Like if you were running the Democratic party and you and everybody got in a room and said, "You
00:30:16
know what? We really are going to take winning seriously, not get into this like purity test for everybody in the
00:30:23
party and you know, everybody's got to be perfect and Joe Rogan's not good
00:30:28
enough to go on air with because he's a lifelong Democrat, but he said something
00:30:33
about co we don't agree with. Therefore, he's out of the party." Elon Musk is a
00:30:37
little bit weird on the Well, but but the Democrats did. And then, oh, Elon Musk waited hours to and had Obama at
00:30:43
SpaceX and then all of a sudden he can't come to the White House for the EV summit, the category he created. Like,
00:30:48
it's pretty obvious the Democratic party had some real dysfunction in there in
00:30:53
terms of building a bigger tent. And I can tell you, I have never felt more corded in my life than the Republican
00:31:01
party trying to get me to be part of the the Trump movement, which I demured and
00:31:07
declined. It wasn't my style, right? Uh but they are trying to build the biggest
00:31:11
10 possible. They're like, "Oh, you agree with 14% of what we do. You're in
00:31:16
like >> Okay. >> Yeah. So, walk me through. So, let's dissect the top things." Yeah.
00:31:20
>> Let's dissect. First off, you attribute a number of things to Democrats that I
00:31:24
didn't say. So, um we're you're here interviewing me, so let's focus on the
00:31:28
things I say. Number two, um they went and they courted you uh and you demurred. By the way, um even had you
00:31:36
not demurred, had you signed up, I don't know that your life would be better off
00:31:39
after a year and a half of Trump's policies. What I am for here in Pennsylvania, the ultimate swing state,
00:31:46
the toughest state to win in, an incredibly tough state to govern in, particularly with a divided legislature.
00:31:53
I'm for investing in public education, giving every child of God an opportunity. I'm for safe communities,
00:31:59
and we're building that here, and we're reducing crime in all of our communities. I'm for a progrowth economy
00:32:05
where we generate more energy, we generate more jobs, where we create more opportunities, particularly in our rural
00:32:12
communities and forgotten communities that have been too often left behind. And here's the fourth thing I'm for. I
00:32:17
am for freedom. And I'll tell you what, this president represents a party that
00:32:22
used to be known as the party of freedom. And now they have turned their backs on that. They want to tell my kids
00:32:28
what books they're allowed to read. They want to tell women what medicines they
00:32:32
can take and what they can do with their bodies. They want to control the way I raise my child. They want to say uh, you
00:32:40
know, every day that yeah, you can vote, but we're going to set the rules and try
00:32:44
and rig them in a way where you're not going to be successful. They are not the
00:32:48
party of freedom. And I think the Democratic Party has an opportunity to be the party of education, safety,
00:32:54
economic opportunity, and freedom. That's what we're doing here in Pennsylvania. And that's what I'm gonna
00:32:59
continue to put forth. >> I think it's a great platform. I would add to it, housing. The thing I hear
00:33:05
about from young people all the time is, you know, just I'll never be able to
00:33:08
afford a house. The American dreams a bit of a scam and college is overpriced. >> So, how do you think about housing and
00:33:15
and what do is that an issue in your state or >> Let's talk about housing. Let's also
00:33:20
talk about college because you raised both of them in your question. I mean, that has disinfected, by the way, just
00:33:26
like two generations who are like, "You guys tricked us on housing. You told us
00:33:30
to be able to get home and you won't sell your home boomers." Uh, and and you
00:33:35
told us we could always make more than our college education cost. And that was a lie, too.
00:33:38
>> Yeah. When I was talking about economic opportunity, it's somewhat shorthand, if
00:33:43
you will, for also being able to afford that community. Uh, affording that community can be healthcare. It can be
00:33:48
housing, right? But let's talk about housing. Here in Pennsylvania, I've
00:33:52
asked the legislature for a $1 billion fund to be able to build more housing in Pennsylvania and repair existing
00:33:59
housing. 50% of my housing was built prior to 1950. You can invest a few thousand bucks in a new boiler, a new
00:34:07
roof, some new windows, actually keep people in their homes and not have to build new homes. We also have to
00:34:13
eliminate or damn near eliminate the red tape that exists when it comes to building housing. We got to be able to
00:34:20
build this faster. And so I put forth a regulatory reform plan to be able to build more housing. I think that is um
00:34:28
really really crucial. Let's talk about college for a minute. The first day I
00:34:32
was governor, the first executive order I signed was to do away with the college
00:34:37
degree requirement to work for state government. We have 80,000 employees. Damn near all. Now you do not have to
00:34:44
have a college degree other than say the doctors and lawyers and people like that
00:34:48
who require advanced degrees. So now 60% 60% of all of our hires in state government
00:34:55
don't have a college degree. We followed up on that by tripling our funding for
00:35:00
votech and CTE in our high schools. Our you know dramatically increasing our funding for apprenticeship programs. 62%
00:35:08
of my adult population here in Pennsylvania do not have a college degree. So, we need to make sure we're
00:35:14
investing in them so that they have opportunities. You want to go learn to be a welder, you're going to make six
00:35:19
figures working in a shipyard in South Philadelphia. You want to go and you want to work on HVAC system, you're
00:35:26
going to work in some of our most complex life sciences um construction jobs and you're going to make six
00:35:33
figures doing that. So for us, we fundamentally believe that you've got many pathways to opportunity here in
00:35:41
Pennsylvania. For some, it's going to college, great. And for others, if you
00:35:45
choose not to go to college, that's also great. We're going to make sure that we
00:35:48
pave the way for you and give you that opportunity. >> Yeah. The generation two belt movement
00:35:52
is um well upon us. People are starting to figure out going in debt 100 or 200k versus getting a plumber job, carpenter
00:36:00
job, HVAC, whatever for six figures out of the gate is a much better opportunity.
00:36:05
>> Yeah. And to be clear, I'm not on people that go to college. I went to college. I
00:36:09
presume you went to go to college. But for too long, by the way, politicians in both parties define success exclusively
00:36:19
around the idea of you having to have a college degree and then set up arbitrary
00:36:23
barriers to entry. Hey, if you don't have a college degree, you can't apply
00:36:26
here. What about the skills that you developed in the military? What about the skills you developed at a trade
00:36:31
school or the skills that you developed working in the private sector? Those skills should matter. And now they do in
00:36:37
Pennsylvania. And we're no longer taking an elitist approach that shuts people
00:36:42
out just because they don't have a college degree. We're giving them the
00:36:46
keys to opportunity. And we're giving them opportunities to pursue more success here in Pennsylvania.
00:36:52
>> Does the socialist democratic movement worry you Mandami and the crew? And how
00:37:00
do you think about that in terms of the party dynamics? I mean, remember the question you asked me, I three or four
00:37:05
questions ago about you said, "Well, yeah, I only agree with 14% of what you
00:37:09
agree with, you know, come join the party." Look, my view is that we got to
00:37:13
have a big tent. And my view is that we've got to have a real debate around different ideas. And just because I
00:37:19
might not agree with you on these three things, I might agree with you on something else. Listen, I'm sitting
00:37:24
behind my desk here in the governor's office. This is where I negotiate bills
00:37:28
and budgets and other things. If I threw everybody out of my office that I didn't
00:37:32
agree with 100% of the time, we'd never get anything done. When I sit down across the table from a Republican
00:37:38
lawmaker, say, 'What are the 10 things you want to accomplish? I tell him the
00:37:42
10 things I want to accomplish. And you know what? We're not going to agree on
00:37:44
all 10, but if we agree on three or four, I'd rather focus on those three or
00:37:48
four things where we can find common ground than the five, six, seven things where we're just going to disagree. And
00:37:54
so I think if you want to make progress, you got to figure out how to create, you
00:37:58
know, majorities. Whether it's a majority in the legislature to get a bill to my desk, a majority come
00:38:03
election time to win an election. You got to find ways to bring people together and find common ground and not
00:38:09
just focus exclusively on our differences. >> What's your take on what's going on in
00:38:14
Congress, Senate, in terms of Trump and getting alignment there? because hey when you go to war or you do tariffs um
00:38:22
this was something we had a consultation between these different branches of our
00:38:26
government and we had other presidents on the Democrat side etc you know say hey we're going to just get rid of
00:38:32
student loan I'm doing an executive order curious your take on the balance of our of our different branches of
00:38:38
government >> and the lack of collaboration because this is particularly disturbing we're
00:38:43
both Gen Xers we grew up watching the Democrats and the Republicans argue but then They all got together, had lunch,
00:38:50
and they negotiated. Where is that aspree to corpse of everybody rowing in the same direction uh for all Americans
00:38:57
versus this toxic, you know, we're just going to block each other at and do character assassination at every single
00:39:06
turn. It's it's the most polarized of our lifetimes for sure. I actually think
00:39:10
the Congress of the United States um the leadership there I mean they are >> frankly kind of sad pathetic people and
00:39:18
let me explain why. Right. You put um uh what's his name? Johnson in as as speaker and he's effectively a rubber
00:39:27
stamp for anything Donald Trump wants. By the way, whether you agree with Trump or not, I think you can agree that you'd
00:39:33
like your member of Congress to at least meet the burdens that they have on them
00:39:38
in the Constitution of the United States, which is to be a check, which is to be a a separate branch of government
00:39:46
and a branch of government that has meaningful responsibilities here. when the Congress of the United States walks
00:39:53
away from their responsibilities whether on tariffs or whether on declaring war and ultimately just kind of empower the
00:40:00
president again agree or disagree obviously I have profound disagreements from the president on on those things
00:40:07
then what what you've really done is you've limited um the power of the Congress and what you've really done is
00:40:13
you've seen a whole bunch of people that put Donald Trump before the oath of
00:40:17
office they take to the Constitution and I think that's just pathetic by the way, why these people work so
00:40:24
hard to get to Congress, to move up in leadership, to do all the things they got to do and then give away their power
00:40:31
to Donald Trump. That's pathetic and it's weak. And I think our country is
00:40:36
suffering as a result of it. Look, I'm here in Pennsylvania where where it all
00:40:40
began 250 years ago. And the brilliance of our founders um was that they left so much of the
00:40:49
work to the next generation and the generation after that to pick up the baton and continue to perfect our union.
00:40:58
Our founders though always contemplated two things. one, that there would be honorable people in office, and two,
00:41:09
that the people in office would exercise their power and be a check on one another, and in some cases slow things
00:41:17
down to make sure that bad things didn't occur, bad things couldn't get through
00:41:22
the process. I think what Americans are confronting now is a realization that we
00:41:27
don't really have all honorable people in positions of authority in the federal
00:41:32
government and that that checks and balance system that was constructed here in Pennsylvania is not standing the test
00:41:40
of time because you've got these profoundly and pathetically weak people like Johnson and others who just simply
00:41:47
give away their power to folks who are corrupt and to folks who are not acting in an honorable way.
00:41:54
>> You keep uh bringing up that corruption. Explain to me what corrupt things you
00:41:59
know that the Trump administration has done. >> I think to me there has been an
00:42:03
extraordinary amount of self-deing there. There has been um a a good bit of family members doing quite well in this
00:42:12
uh in this environment. I think you're seeing more and more people who have the
00:42:17
president's ear being able to lobby him at his swim club to get a pardon for
00:42:22
someone that frankly doesn't deserve a pardon. I mean, I think the list goes on
00:42:26
and on and on, but those are some examples that the American people see with their own eyes. Taking a, you know,
00:42:33
a billion dollar jet from the Qataris and thinking there's nothing attached to
00:42:37
that, right? I mean, I think that there is just a lot of that that moves so fast
00:42:42
that the American people are having a hard time keeping up with it, but there will be a reckoning one day.
00:42:48
>> Yeah. So, on the pardons, I'm strongly agreeing. Feels like the pardon power is
00:42:53
super abused. Is is there a path to refine that tool because it relies on norms, right? And ever since Bill
00:43:01
Clinton, >> you know, did some, you know, friends and then obviously Biden did his son and
00:43:07
then Trump's doing his, >> you know, folks. It feels like now this is just a get out of jail card. You come
00:43:14
into an administration and then everybody from Fouchy to, you know, Hunter Biden, everybody else is just
00:43:21
going to get a pardon on the way out. How would you reshape that tool? Well, let let's be clear and I I don't think
00:43:27
you're suggesting this, but um and I was critical of Joe Biden when he pardoned
00:43:31
his son, right? I was critical of him publicly. What we are seeing under Donald Trump, you have to admit, is next
00:43:38
level when it comes to the abuse >> on the way. It's Yeah, it's in the first
00:43:41
year. It's not on the last day even. It's like an ongoing tool here. We had
00:43:45
CZ um who was a a crypto person who got pardoned and Trump didn't even know who
00:43:50
he was, right? >> He was just like, I heard he's a good guy. I mean, I will tell you, I sit at
00:43:55
this desk here and I sign pardons and clemencies and I take that responsibility so seriously and and I
00:44:04
agonize over these decisions and and I pray that I get these decisions right and I believe I have and I'm transparent
00:44:13
about why I viewed someone as worthy to get a clemency and also worthy of not getting one or not worthy I should say
00:44:21
but but also not earning one. And these are tough tough decisions. Goes back to what I said a moment ago. Our founders
00:44:30
when they vested that kind of authority in an executive didn't necessarily do
00:44:34
something wrong by giving the executive that power, but they were leaning on the
00:44:38
assumption that the executive would be honorable, that the executive would would would do this with morality and
00:44:46
real scruples in mind. And and I think what we're seeing with the president is
00:44:50
if you sidle up to him at his swim club, you donate a certain amount of money maybe or you have his ear for some other
00:44:57
social reason, you can usually get him to give a pardon to someone who's important to you.
00:45:02
>> Yeah, the the pardons definitely are super troubling. How do you deal with
00:45:06
the family members and the kids enriching themselves? Obviously, nothing has been um done by a court or
00:45:16
an investigation into Trump's kids at this point. Um so, we just want to be clear about that. You know, we had uh
00:45:22
Hunter Biden getting a ridiculous million-doll board seat. I've never seen anybody get paid a million dollars to be
00:45:27
on a board. That was obviously corrupt in some way or somebody trying to curry favor. Doesn't mean the president Biden
00:45:33
was, but it definitely was corruption there. How do you deal with kids of and and this has been going on for a while
00:45:41
um these kind of allegations if we if we can't rely on honor and norms is there
00:45:47
another proposal here that the kids of you know people in office can't make money your kids can't make money if I
00:45:53
was running for office my kids couldn't make money in the free market how do you
00:45:57
is there any kind of solution you can think of >> I think it is important you you cited
00:46:01
Hunter Biden they went through a legal process there was an investigation by the department of justice is I think
00:46:06
there has to be a real look. I say this as a former prosecutor, a real look at some of this stuff and follow the
00:46:13
evidence, follow the law, and if charges are warranted, bring them. And by the way, if charges are not warranted, don't
00:46:18
bring them. Do not um use the the rule of law as a tool to go against, you know, political opponents in in any way.
00:46:26
But I think what you've got to have here are people who are operating with real
00:46:31
morality. And you do have to figure out a way to operate within the norms. Again, I'm unwilling to accept that that
00:46:37
is gone. It may be temporarily suspended under Donald Trump, but I'm hopeful that
00:46:42
we can find our way back to that. Let me be clear about something else here. That
00:46:45
finding our way back to that >> is a bipartisan exercise. It's going to
00:46:51
require Republicans and Democrats and independents all demanding when they go to the ballot box that we want to
00:46:57
elevate people who are ethical, people who are honest, people who are focused on doing their jobs with integrity, and
00:47:05
then when those people are in office, rewarded with the votes of the public and in these positions of public trust
00:47:11
to hold them accountable as well. >> And you believe that can happen in a postTrump? I do. Yeah,
00:47:16
>> I do. >> Yeah, I strongly agree. Uh, hey, it's a year since your home was firebombed
00:47:23
by an insane person who was anti-Semitic. Your faith comes up over and over again. I personally think
00:47:30
people are a little uh obsessed with it, but here we are and the Democratic Party's been split apart as well over
00:47:37
this support of Israel issue. You have a very nuanced position. Number one, how are you dealing with that personally,
00:47:43
the anti-semitism, which to me, as somebody who grew up in Brooklyn with lots of Jewish friends and all kinds of
00:47:49
different people, just insane to think that Jewish students are being or any particular group of students being
00:47:55
chased by the other students at Columbia University because they're Jewish and
00:47:58
this chaoticness. Um, it's just heartbreaking. But as a Jewish person and literally experiencing it firsthand,
00:48:06
I mean, how are you doing with that? >> Yeah, I appreciate it. Look, we we
00:48:11
should separate this and have two conversations. One about Israel and one about anti-semitism because you kind of
00:48:16
blurred both in that question. Let's focus first on anti-semitism. I have been very outspoken
00:48:21
>> about those who are engaging in anti-semitism, pedalling words that are
00:48:26
anti-semitic. And importantly, I've been critical of people on the political left
00:48:30
and on the political right. And I think anti-semitism is a problem in our society and is a problem on the left and
00:48:37
it is a problem on the right. And I think it is important that we call it out. We call it out whether we're in an
00:48:43
interview. Not accusing you by any call it out when um you know on on social media and then we just call it out in
00:48:51
our communities in our daily lives where we see it on that. There should be no nuance. We should be able to come
00:48:58
together, people who are Jewish, people are Christian, Muslim, and all agree that hatred, bigotry in any form
00:49:05
directed at Jew, a Muslim, Christian, anyone, it has no place. And by the way, it makes us all less safe. And so we
00:49:13
have to focus on speaking out against that. No nuance on that. >> Yeah. >> On the issue of Israel and the Middle
00:49:19
East and the war in Iran and Gaza, there's a lot of nuance there. I'm happy
00:49:22
to answer your questions on that. But I think on the issue of anti-semitism, we have got to be in a place where we
00:49:28
universally condemn it. And I think what you're seeing from some folks on the
00:49:33
right and some folks on the left is they'll only call it out if it's said by
00:49:38
a political opponent or someone they disagree with. And I frankly respect people on the right like Ted Cruz who
00:49:45
have called it out within the Republican party. I've tried to call it out when it
00:49:50
rears its ugly head in my party. It is important that it be universally condemned.
00:49:56
>> So easy to do. Let's tackle the uh issue of Israel. And I would say, yeah, every
00:50:03
Jewish person, Jewish American person who I know, when I asked them about this issue, obviously incredible tragedy
00:50:09
October 7th, going and collecting the hostages seems like a reasonable thing to do. Was I was there for 9/11, you
00:50:16
know, seems like a pretty analogous situation. This has to be settled. and the United States went and did what it
00:50:23
had to do in Afghanistan and took out Iraq for extra measure. Um, it's a whole
00:50:27
other diversion, but 100% of folks say they don't agree with Netanyahu's
00:50:32
approach to what happened in Gaza. And then folks feel a decent number of people, whether it's reality or not,
00:50:39
that America is getting dragged into this war with Iran, not under false pretenses, uh, and because Israel is
00:50:47
pushing us to do it. So, let's take these two issues separately. And I'm
00:50:51
just curious in understanding your position on this. Are you part of the JewishAmerican diaspora that believes,
00:50:59
hey, Israel's right to defend itself, but maybe Gaza went too far? >> Okay. Well, first off, um, let me say
00:51:05
this. I don't view this issue as a Jewish American, as you said. I view this issue as an American. And I view
00:51:13
this issue in a way of trying to understand what is the best thing for America, which to me is having peace and
00:51:21
stability in the Middle East. Okay, that's how I approach these issues. It is um and I've been clear and consistent
00:51:29
about this long before October 7th, that I think Netanyahu, the leader of Israel,
00:51:36
um is someone who's been leading Israel down a dangerous and isolated path. I
00:51:42
think he has made Israel um more isolated in the world community. He has fractured really what used to be a
00:51:50
nonpartisan or bipartisan um American support for Israel. And I think he has put Israel in a very dangerous place.
00:51:59
And of course, he was the leader of Israel who wasn't minding the shop when October 7th happened. So I've been very
00:52:06
critical of Netanyahu for years and years and years. I've also for years made very clear that I think the
00:52:14
America's interest in the region should be for stability and peace and that it
00:52:19
would be my hope that you would have two states living peacefully side by side, Israel and a Palestinian state. Now I
00:52:29
realize that is a long way off given where we are right now but it is clear that we need to work toward that and
00:52:35
obviously that Palestinian state cannot be led by Hamas which is a terrorist organization and there has to be some
00:52:43
structure that is put in place in order in order to create that as it relates to
00:52:49
the war which you also asked about in in your question. I mean this was a war of
00:52:54
choice. The president never defined the objectives. it is clear he doesn't know
00:52:58
how the hell to get out of this. Um we'll see what he ultimately does with his big threats. You know, we're we're
00:53:04
recording this on the eve of his, you know, of his big uh threat um using language using language that was so
00:53:14
offensive, you'll excuse my language, that diminished the value of human life.
00:53:19
Um we'll see what he ultimately does. Does he chickenen out as he usually does
00:53:23
or does, god forbid, he he go through with that? This was a war of choice. He didn't know why he got into it. He
00:53:29
doesn't know how the hell to get out of it. America, >> why did he get into it? Handicap, pardon
00:53:34
me, America's national security interests have not been well served by this. And economically, you've talked
00:53:40
about this. Economically, we are worse off uh because of this war. I'm sorry. I
00:53:44
didn't mean to over you. >> No, no, no. I mean, listen, I I appreciate your candidness, Governor.
00:53:50
Why did he do it? if you had to handicap it or what are you hearing when you talk
00:53:53
because you have obviously a lot more information than the average yeah uh American why now why did we do this now
00:54:00
we had done you know the strategic uh trimming of the hedges mowing of the lawn whatever the term is to get rid of
00:54:06
the nuclear progress that's containment seemed like a perfect strategy and then
00:54:12
all of a sudden we decide we're going to do regime change this is after Trump
00:54:16
promised that he would never get an uh do an intervention like this in the Middle East this after we were told by
00:54:22
the Republicans, do not vote for a crazy Democrat who will take us to war with Iran. And here we are in month 14 or 13
00:54:30
of the Trump presidency. And he started a war. >> His own biggest advocates from Megan
00:54:36
Kelly to Tucker Carlson and you know people on the fringe, Alex Jones, and everybody in the middle, the comedians
00:54:42
who supported him, the podcast diaspora or the podcast bros, they're all fleeing
00:54:47
the ship. They did not want this. So, here we are. Why did he do this? Why now? What is your handicapping of it?
00:54:54
>> Well, I I'll answer. I will just say it's yet another broken promise to the
00:54:58
people who put him in power. He screwed over the farmers who put him in power. He told people he wouldn't slash
00:55:04
Medicaid. He cut Medicaid. He told people he'd bring down prices. Prices have skyrocketed because of his tariffs.
00:55:11
He He's got this long string of broken promises. Now, why did he break this particular promise? Let's let's let's
00:55:19
examine the record. First, Rubio went out and said he did it because if we didn't move, then Netanyahu was going to
00:55:26
move and was going to force our hand. Then they walked it back. He said seven or eight months ago that um they
00:55:33
destroyed their nuclear capabilities and then came back seven or eight months later and said we had to go in because
00:55:40
we had to destroy their nuclear capabilities. I don't know. Then they said it was about regime change. Well,
00:55:46
great. I mean, we went from like an 80s something year old Ayatollah to a 60some
00:55:50
year old Ayatollah who by all accounts um seems to be far more hardline. I'd
00:55:55
hardly call that successful regime change. So to me it is hard to I think you've seen I've been trying to be very
00:56:03
forthright in answering your questions. I don't know how you answer that question because the president never
00:56:10
answered that question. He never sat in the Oval Office and looked the American people in the eye and said, "This is why
00:56:17
we're going in." And you know what? This isn't semantics. This isn't politics. If
00:56:23
you don't know why you're going in, you don't know how the hell to get out. You
00:56:27
don't know how to instruct the military, our brave military, including those 13
00:56:32
souls who did not make it home to their families because they went on a mission that the president never defined. And we
00:56:39
mourn their loss. We thank our military heroes for what they did. And we thank our military who are out working every
00:56:46
day um on behalf of our freedom and our safety and our security, but they deserve a commanderin-chief who would
00:56:52
have defined the mission. And if you define the mission, you know how to get out. He never defined the mission. I
00:56:58
don't know ultimately if he will follow through on his threat. Again, it's, you
00:57:02
know, it's Tuesday afternoon. You and I are talking. We'll see ultimately what
00:57:05
he does here. But um to me this has been a failed and compromised mission from the beginning because he never made
00:57:12
clear why he was going in. >> Yeah. And I know you got to go in a moment. It does seem to me that first
00:57:18
explanation sometimes people you know their first reaction and their first statement is the true statement uh just
00:57:24
in general. And it does seem like Israel was going to do this and we joined them
00:57:27
and we didn't need to. And to your point America should never pardon me. America
00:57:33
should never be led around by any other nation. It should always be about America's interests, our national
00:57:39
security interest, the interest of expanding freedom and opportunity for the American people. We should never
00:57:45
ever be bullied as maybe President Trump was by any other world leader. >> Back to the anti-semitism we're
00:57:52
experiencing now. You said, "Hey, let's address them separately." But I don't
00:57:56
think you can separate them if we're getting pulled into this war by another
00:58:01
nation and people believe like you and I do, hey, Netanyahu maybe went a little too far here.
00:58:07
>> That is what's causing the anti-semitism in this country. Don't you think? This
00:58:12
relationship with Israel, the state of Israel, Netanyahu, that undying support for Netanyahu, that's not causing the
00:58:18
anti-semitism here. That's what these young people seem to be saying is we don't want to vote for somebody who
00:58:24
supports Netanyahu. Well, I think you got to be real careful on that. You you the collective, not you individually. I
00:58:31
mean, if you're suggesting, say, that Jews are Israel and reflect Israeli policies and support everything Israel
00:58:39
does. I mean, that's one of the oldest anti-semitic tropes out there. This sort
00:58:43
of notion of dual loyalty. I think it is fair to vote on the issue of do we support what Donald Trump is doing
00:58:53
relative to Netanyahu? That's fair. But to suggest that somehow it's, you know,
00:58:59
because Jews are tied to Israel and that's why we're doing >> you and I can parse this issue, I think,
00:59:05
very easily. But young people at Colombia or Harvard where all this is going on and these, you know, pro
00:59:12
Palestinian protests are going on. They don't seem to be able to make that parse. That seems to be one of the roots
00:59:17
of the problems here that people do put together. >> Yeah. >> These young people, they could be
00:59:22
stupid. they could be misinformed, but they do put together what the state of Israel is doing and they equate it with
00:59:29
Judaism. >> And that's why I've tried and that's why I've tried to be so outspoken on this
00:59:33
and making clear that on anti-semitism, there should be no nuance. And that's a
00:59:38
conversation where we should all be able to unite and that we have to protect a place for nuance when it comes to M East
00:59:45
policy, when it comes to Israel, when it comes to Iran and and um and anything happening in the Middle East. And we
00:59:51
need to give space for those who want to peacefully, and I want to stress peacefully protest. We want to give
00:59:58
space to those who differ from the administration and frankly those who support the administration to be able to
01:00:03
go out and to protest peacefully. And that is, I think, an important part of the fabric of our American society. I
01:00:12
just think it's important I try and do this work every day as governors to keep
01:00:16
those conversations separate because when they get blended that's where I think it gets dangerous and that's where
01:00:21
um I I think it it really crosses a line into something we don't want to see in
01:00:26
our society >> and you could be super critical of Israel and you could love your Jewish
01:00:33
neighbors and friends. These are these this is a very simple concept here >> and I think that reflects where I am on
01:00:39
many things. I've been super critical of the Israeli government, the Netanyahu
01:00:43
government. Um, and and I'm someone uh who who loves Israel, someone who has
01:00:48
spent time in Israel. I wrote a whole book about um I proposed to my wife there and and how I think the the idea
01:00:56
of it is is important. We've got to figure out ways to keep those two conversations
01:01:01
um not not separate, but but blurring the lines in a way that creates some dangers, I I think is something we have
01:01:08
to guard against. Yeah, lots of education, lots of opportunities. Josh Shapiro, thank you so much for coming on
01:01:13
All In and we look forward to having you on again and good luck with your uh race. Good luck with your 76ers. I will
01:01:20
see you in the second round. It looks like >> next year or next time I'm on. I'll be
01:01:24
wearing a Sixers hoodie. So, um >> go Knicks. >> I'll see you courtside my friend. You go
01:01:30
to the games. I'm going all in.