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sacks i am gonna give you a thousand dollars each to the charity of your choice for
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every correct answer [ __ ] it ten thousand but you have to answer you have to answer in real time and you
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can't [ __ ] around okay no stalling this is this is to any charity chooses included tucker
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carlson 2024 okay you have to give the answers right away you cannot [ __ ] think
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about this here we go three two one first middle and last name of your children and their birthdays go
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um stopping for time already no you're already stuck okay go dude oh you can beat these out nick go ahead go
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so is uh january no year what's the oh uh 2008 [Music] uh is uh october um uh 2010
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and then little guy little man first name little yeah you're trying to stop me with the little guy
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little man uh he was born october of uh 2016. all right that was a struggle i got it i got it
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there he got that that's all that matters is he got there it is so you're gonna give that you're
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gonna give ten grand yeah ten grand each two all right so it's 30 grand to tucker carlson for president desantis
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2024 i said charity [ __ ] [Music] hey everybody hey everybody welcome to your favorite podcast the all
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podcast where we talk about the economy technology politics and well basically anything
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that's in the news with us today again the queen of quinoa himself david friedberg how are you doing david
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i'm hanging in there today all right people are looking for the dog where's the dog monty
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he's sitting here on the floor monty come here come on come here come on monty all right and
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from a random palace somewhere in the world the dictator himself chamoth polly hoppity how you doing see
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uh i'm doing great you know i i got another dog uh while you were in italy uh i went to
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um the breeder that i got aki from and uh she had a three-year-old that was not really you know ever gonna
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become a breeding dog or whatever so i adopted the three-year-old he has a parasite so he's been pooing
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everywhere everywhere that's great information for the call over all over the castle
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all over the castle fantastic liquid poop by the way uh but we finally diagnosed it today and he's going to the
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to the vet um to get some liquids and to get the parasite expunged from his body
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uh okay thank you for that information and i don't know nobody cares you no nobody cares how you were doing i
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thought you were just going to say great i didn't know we were going to go straight to diarrhea we got a new dog
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too you did and it's also it's been kind of a disaster the kids were like dad we
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found this like i think you know golden that is really calm you know like she's just super low
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energy and calms like perfect for us i'm like i don't know i think that's just like the puppy is kind of asleep
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you know like it's gonna wake up they're like no no no this is like a special dog it's
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like really well behaved whatever so anyway we get it sure enough like a week later the puppy
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wakes up and she's eating everything in the house destroying everything it spit yeah so now we're wait is that
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dog number two or three for you it's dog two with the dog one was a rescue dog who's great
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so dog number two is now getting trained all right david sax is with us of course the rain
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man himself and in related dog stories i put all the girls to bed and then i hear screaming i get up i run outside
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literally the new bulldog who's nine months old maximus went on you know one of his running fits
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one of my daughters falls out of bed gets like a bruise on her like lower back and she's wailing the
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other daughter feels terrible about it and then the dog decides that he is going to
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projectile vomit everywhere all at the same time you guys have had these moments where
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like it's just completely utter chaos it's chaos it's just chaos it's cat dogs plus kids equals
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chaos uh chaos so but get would any of us have it any other way i love the combo of dogs and kids
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it's just the best it's pretty gross dogs are amazing especially when you bring in a
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new dog or a puppy into the house it's chaos but it's a really beautiful chaos well you know what i think also is
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like think about how overrated everything in life is people like oh my god this place
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with the pasta in italy it's the greatest life-changing thing and all this movie was incredible it's the best
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movie ever made and it's never the best movie ever made or the best pasta ever it's great or
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whatever but i think kids and dogs are underrated universally have as many kids as you can
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possibly biologically have and can economically afford as much one opinion and uh the more dogs the
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better i love dogs yeah all right uh i think we should start with the cova cases
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because this is impacting everything from the economy to people's decisions touching on people's freedoms and it's
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hard to know where to start here but i think facts are always a good place to start
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here in the united states we had gotten covert cases you know to that 12 000 a day
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average it was pretty amazing and it looked like it was gonna go straight down smooth sailing um and we had had deaths
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down at around uh i saw some seven day averages where we were at 150 200. now the weekends are kind of weird um in
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terms of reporting but the seven day average today is at 248 in other words it's been flat
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for a month when you do this on this is according to the new york times statistics and google
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you can search for google and you'll find these they have some great data that they'll just put right in the
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search result however cases have gone from this 12 15 k a day average soaring in just 30 days to 60
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2000 a day and a 7 day average of 40 000 so we're basically tripled the number of
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cases cases trail traditionally debts by something in the neighborhood of 10 days
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uh i think i'm correct friedberg so what do you think is actually going to happen here we're
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going to we're going to get up to 10 100 000 200 000 cases a day and maybe double the number of deaths
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from the people who are not vaccinated yeah you know the current logic on this is that there
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will be um because of the number of people that are generally infected and are spreading what is now an even
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more infectious variant of covid the people that are not vaccinated are um starting to get it at a higher
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rate and that's where the deaths are starting to come from so um yeah we will see deaths climb
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and i think like we talked about last time we're starting to see even gavin did an interview
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yesterday in california talking about how you know there it's on the table that we may go back to certain
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restrictions uh behavioral restrictions mass mandates etc so there's going to be a set of
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reactions and i think as we talked about last time we saw the market start to react to the potential of that
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on monday and then very interestingly kind of reverse course on tuesday and everything
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came back when everyone was freaked out on monday after they saw the weekend's data which
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showed that cases are climbing like crazy in the u.s but i think the conventional wisdom is
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not that many people are going to die therefore we're not going to see you know um uh political leaders
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uh force restrictions that are kind of uh going to damage the economy and we're going to start to walk what i
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think israel is calling the golden line which is balancing the economy with the the health of the citizenry so
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um so you know we'll we'll see uh it's going to come down to policy but i think from a death perspective there will
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absolutely be a rise in depths now as unvaccinated people are the gonna be the bulk of those deaths and
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and this thing is spreading again amongst people that haven't been vaccinated well and then sacks this becomes now a
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great raw shock test of what do you see uh in this data and in this moment because
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it's a pandemic as many people are saying now i think this is becoming the meme or the catchphrase it's a
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pandemic of the unvaccinated so people have chosen to opt in to this pandemic and then a
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group of us have chosen to not be part of it you were part of it even as a vaccinated person but
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you're feeling great you're back to a hundred percent so what do you think should happen in
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terms of closings or shutdowns or mass mandates what's your take on the pandemic of the unvaccinated
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well i think we need to differentiate between public policy and private behavior so you know
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after last week's episode where i said you know delta variants real there's going to be huge spike in cases
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um unfortunately i thought we had this thing whipped you know a few weeks ago now i think the
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data is showing something different you know everyone there's a lot of commenters saying saks you've turned
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you've been blue pilled no it's you know i i think there's a difference between acknowledging what's
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going on and then having the the policy conversation around it um i think that the difference now from last year i mean
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there's a couple of things one is that we do have vaccines so i think for most people getting vaccinated will take
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the worst risks off the table the other is we know so much more about what works and what doesn't work
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and so lockdowns don't work if you know if they ever did they they they they we now know looking at
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from what different states did last year that they don't make a difference there's no reason to go back to that
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policy but also i mean i would even say on mass it should be wait do we know that i mean is that i think
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so are we sure of that yeah i think so because um the thing that the government planners never take
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into account is that private citizens are going to adjust their behavior in both directions
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so in florida they didn't have mandates but people who are at risk took you know extreme precautions they would
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either lock themselves down or be very fastidious about wearing a high quality mask by contrast
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in california we had the most severe lockdowns but they were never really feasible so there's 10 pages of
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exceptions people didn't really abide by them and then on top of it you know you have
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all these mass mandates but if somebody wears like a sock loosely affixed to their face does that really
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protect them you know so you know people if they're if they're not interested in complying with these
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mandates they do it in a half-hearted way i'm not convinced that the mandates work in the first place
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um so the smart thing to do here is just to have recommendations and let private citizens decide what their
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response is going to be we know now so much more about the risks that we all face
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uh than we did a year ago um and so just let private citizens decide i mean i'd even say on va on
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vaccines i mean look i'm pro-vax i don't really understand where the anti-vaxx people are coming
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from but i'm kind of done wasting my breath trying to convince people to get vaccinated
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you know on this show who don't want to get vaccinated you know if they don't want to send those doses
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to the developing world where they're desperate for them let me ask you trump do you do you agree with sax's
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position that listens citizens are just going to have to make their own decision
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here leave everything open and let's not have the economy collapse again and people people are
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smart enough to make their own decision and is this framing of this is a pandemic of
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the unvaccinated the correct framing wow i'm really of two minds there's there's the part of me that says that
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um you have to give people the right to make their own decision the problem is that
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in this specific case there's so much transmissibility and um as a result of that how this thing
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can mutate that i think that public health has to take a priority over any individual individual's rights
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in in this very specific narrow narrow case because the delta variant is so transmission
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transmissible people are going to have to lose some freedoms is one of those showing a vaccine card
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when you go to an arena you wouldn't need that if everybody was vaccinated or you had to go through a lot of hoops to
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be unvaccinated as an example i mean and and the reason is because the longer you allow
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this thing to float around in the petri dish of the unvaccinated you're increasing everybody's risk and
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this is where i think individual freedoms as long as there's a trample on collective freedom then i think
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live and let live but i think on this specific issue uh i think that it's it's it's
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unconscionable to be in a situation where um we are fighting basically a time function
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where at a certain amount of time you're going to have a variant that that is you know basically will
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overcome all the vaccines we have will uh kill enormous numbers of people including the vaccinated will literally
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shut the economy down and that's a probabilistic event now and i don't like the fact that i'm
00:14:03
susceptible to that because of a bunch of people who frankly aren't doing it for medical or religious
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reasons they're just watching fox news and just spouting off i agree that we're at risk there but
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we're also at risk from accident vaccinated people in the rest of the world so delta variant came from india the lambda
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variant i think the wrong came from peru i mean the fact that matter is unvaccinated people everywhere
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are a potential petri dish for the virus so i'd rather i mean this is why we need to send those
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unused doses that by the way are at risk of expiring we now i mean there was a tweet about
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this recently there's huge stockpiles of vaccine in the u.s that are going to waste right now
00:14:39
we should ship those anywhere in the world that people are ready to get vaccinated specifically to mexico and
00:14:43
canada and canada's i think this uh month going to even though we got off to a massive head
00:14:48
start going to uh eclipse us in terms of the percentage of accident let me ask it
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more pointedly should a t should teachers be public school teachers be forced to be
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vaccinated should you be forced to have a vaccine card to get on public transportation airplanes or you
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know take buses you know long-haul buses uh long-haul trains uh and then third should you be forced to show a vaccine
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card to get on to go to sporting events or concerts let's go through those three
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so your personal freedom ends you're going to be forced if you want to go to group
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behaviors if you want to participate in a public construct if you want to consume a public resource
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or if you want to provide a publicly funded good then it's the broader public's rights
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that um are superior to your individual rights otherwise work at a charter school where
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it's not required watch the [ __ ] concert from home or drive your car use a bicycle or take an
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uber the end sounds what do you think and then freeburg so i i understand that argument i would
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differentiate between public and private requirements because i i don't like the
00:16:00
idea of giving government the power to forcibly stick a needle in your arm um so
00:16:06
what you might said you could stay home or you could take your bicycle well sure
00:16:09
so is that reasonable that you don't get to go to a warriors game because you're
00:16:13
unvaccinated yeah i think you know the warrior stadium is is privately owned the team is private
00:16:19
so i think that i think that private companies should be able to set up their own rules
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for the benefit of their employees and what about airlines because that is you know a gay it's
00:16:29
there's a limited number of them yeah i think so airlines should be able to force it now what about school
00:16:34
teachers they can't force it but they can set the requirements for you to board their planes
00:16:40
you know okay now what about public schools should if let's do teachers and students should
00:16:45
teachers be forced to get a vaccine if they want to come in because you said if they don't come to work in the fall
00:16:51
on a couple episodes back you're fired well why wouldn't they want to get a vaccine the whole debate with the
00:16:56
teachers unions was that they wanted to be at the front of the line for vaccines
00:16:59
which isn't an issue anymore because we have so many so i don't think that's a serious issue
00:17:03
now requiring the kids to get vaccinated is um that that would be the real policy
00:17:08
question and um well let's tackle both should teachers be forced to get the vaccine yes or no
00:17:14
you just kind of brushed over yeah you force it for no i mean i think it's important to just
00:17:19
to just you know pinpoint this like forcing teachers to get vaccinated in order to
00:17:25
you know work at the school i just want to highlight the precedent it sets right
00:17:30
which is um you know you just said you don't want the government to tell people that they have to go get a shot in their
00:17:35
arm if someone has a personal choice that they don't want to get that shot does that mean then that they
00:17:42
you know should lose their job as a public servant well no i mean no i'm i'm saying that i i look i i i said it's not
00:17:50
a big deal but like if there's one or two teachers that say you know what it is a big deal to me i have a different i
00:17:54
have a set of reasons why i don't want to get shot i i think those teachers that's an
00:17:57
assumption of risk i mean if they've decided they're going to assume the risk then
00:18:02
you know don't come crying to us when they get sick well the argument is that was your choice
00:18:07
the vector of exposure right that they could have petri dishes they could be the vector that gets kids
00:18:13
sick in all of these situations there's an always a very um obvious and justifiable exemption for religious
00:18:21
and medical reasons to not be vaccinated not just for this but for anything else
00:18:27
so i struggle to understand why all of a sudden people who don't have a [ __ ] clue about
00:18:32
science are all of a sudden these armchair scientists who can judge whether or not a vaccine is appropriate
00:18:40
for them where they probably already gave vaccines of all other kinds to their kids and themselves
00:18:46
they probably take all other kinds of advice from doctors but on this one specific issue
00:18:51
they narrowly say you know what i'm an expert enough because i'm watching this television show i've made a decision
00:18:56
that to me makes no sense uh yeah look i i actually agree with you i'm in the camp
00:19:00
of that everybody barring some you know um highly specific medical condition that renders you ineligible should be
00:19:09
getting vaccinated so i agree with you about what the right answer is but i do think that when it
00:19:14
comes to government it's it's a more complicated question about how much power you give to
00:19:18
government to force people to engage in you know behavior they don't want to engage in can you i think that's a real
00:19:26
question private organizations are different we all agree on private organizations but we we do have to make
00:19:30
some decisions on public transportation and we do have to make decisions about teachers and we're going to have to make
00:19:35
decisions on students so um could you bench the teachers uh who or otherwise penalize them
00:19:44
who are not vaccinated you know there are sometimes where you know a cop or a teacher is put in a you know
00:19:51
not in the classroom not on the beat for whatever reasons uh sometimes disciplinary but for other
00:19:56
reasons could you just say listen if you're not gonna get vaccinated you're going to not be in the classroom
00:20:02
you're not gonna you'll be a remote teacher and we're just gonna create two classes here
00:20:07
i don't i don't think i don't i don't think there are many teachers who don't want to get vaccinated but
00:20:12
but i um look i think the virus is everywhere now it's just endemic and so to single out like one particular
00:20:19
group and saying you're going to lose your opinion so you're saying teachers should not be forced
00:20:24
i'm saying that i mean if they work in a private school the private school could
00:20:28
definitely require it public only now we all agree on private you're saying i think it's
00:20:34
i think it's a really complicated question because i think there are clear public health benefits to everyone
00:20:39
getting vaccinated but i also don't really like empowering government to force you
00:20:44
because look it's like everything else the government may be right in this particular
00:20:48
case but what else is it going to do with that power and you know i don't like giving government
00:20:53
that power so look it's a complicated question i don't you know it's not um i would i'd probably err on
00:20:59
the side of not letting government force people to do it but but look i i think it's a close call i do think it's
00:21:04
a close call chamoth forced a teacher cfa accident or not yes and the reason is because these kids
00:21:13
are already being left behind even when school is functioning normally and you can see it in the test scores
00:21:22
you can see it in our readiness you can see it in our ability to actually do the jobs that are required
00:21:29
we are not doing what we need to do as it is in the absence of a pandemic and now you introduce a reason for folks
00:21:36
to basically check out and not appear i what do you guys guess how how many years were lost in these 15
00:21:44
months when kids were at home i would say not 15 months no it's more two years two and a half years three years
00:21:54
depending on what grade they are what did did your kids miss graduation did they miss senior prom did they miss
00:22:00
their sats i mean what did they miss in terms of yeah i mean chamoth has a good point which is
00:22:06
that if that that when government is the employer requiring it on their employees because
00:22:13
it leads to better outcomes for that institution that is a little different than government just mandating
00:22:20
that you jason calcano's private citizen have to go get a shot in your arm right i mean so there
00:22:26
is a slight difference there like military for instance right the military probably wants to vaccinate
00:22:31
everybody so that if they need to be ready for a combat situation they're not like you know incapacitated
00:22:38
by an outbreak of covet right so i can i i think there you know we're getting into shades of gray here from a
00:22:45
public policy perspective you know i i don't want uh teachers missing school because
00:22:51
you know for weeks at a time because they didn't do the obvious thing getting the code vaccine
00:22:56
so look i i think there are some really good poly policy arguments there but i think again
00:23:01
the the one place where i'd say government is clearly overstepping is if they just said listen
00:23:06
you private citizen not an employee of the government has to go get vaccinated um as much as i
00:23:12
would like everyone to to to get vaccinated i don't want to give government that kind of power
00:23:16
president biden could legally require military members to get vaccinated but so far he has declined
00:23:22
to do so july 9th new york times friedberg where do you stand on this chamat says
00:23:29
he's all in your teacher you get vaccinated at the end saks is kind of close but is a little
00:23:35
concerned what do you say freeburg i mean another way to frame it is that there's a new qualification
00:23:41
for a job like you know there's qualification to be in the military you have to have certain physical
00:23:46
capabilities jason i don't know if you would qualify um i don't think i would i don't think i
00:23:52
can do like for for totally different reasons your inability to fight or throw a punch
00:23:57
would be no maybe j cal could eat the enemy trust me i would be great in the military i'm going to be here he'd be
00:24:05
like clemenza he'd be cooking the meatballs or something private joker private a donut there's the i think the reason
00:24:16
their sensitivity to it is because there are existing teachers in jobs and then you're telling them that in order to
00:24:22
keep your job you have to go get a vaccine now if we were to have zero teachers today
00:24:27
and we were starting a public school system from scratch and you said here's one of the qualifying criteria to be a
00:24:33
school teacher you have to have an education degree you have to have maybe a master's degree
00:24:37
in education you have to have appropriate qualifications and training and certification
00:24:40
oh and by the way you also have to have a vaccine if that becomes a criteria i think people find it less offensive
00:24:47
it's the fact that we are now saying that there are people that are being told that you have to go
00:24:52
get a shot in order to keep your job um and that's the complicating thing that i
00:24:57
think people are trying to wade through i don't think i don't think that if you were to say like look it's obvious that
00:25:02
the qualifying criteria to be in the military is you have to be able to run and do push-ups or whatever the the
00:25:06
criteria might be but if you impose that on people that were already in the military and then
00:25:10
you're going to kick a bunch of them out people would be up in arms about it if you had a bmi
00:25:15
requirement yeah and that's the concern i think that arises with you know imposing these kind of um
00:25:21
you know personal body uh criteria upon you know specific jobs when people are already employed in that job
00:25:29
um and it's there's there's absolutely no answer right like if you're gonna do it you're gonna have
00:25:35
incredible backlash and trouble and pain um and if you were to and we're not in a
00:25:39
circumstance where we can build these organizations and these institutions from scratch
00:25:42
look there's a lot of social issues where you know particularly on the liberal side people do not want the government
00:25:51
uh prohibiting them from getting certain medical procedures right well um you know i'd say it's even more
00:25:58
invasive you're talking about people transitioning or you know or the issue of abortion you
00:26:02
know very hot button social issues where people are saying the government should not
00:26:06
have the right to legislate what happens with what's happening what happens with my body right well
00:26:13
force it you know giving government the power to forcibly inject you with something is you know
00:26:19
that is that is invasive and um so i do think there are like rights implications to that but i want to be
00:26:26
very clear if you want the services that are offered to you by the collective whole
00:26:34
if you want to consume and be a net drag on the resources that we share then you need to sign up for the compact
00:26:45
that we all sign up for that's that's my over arching argument the the thing with abortion where i'm on
00:26:51
the other side of the issue just to be very clear is like it is a woman's body i don't think i have any right to
00:26:59
dictate what she does i don't understand what she goes through i don't understand
00:27:04
what situation she's in i don't think i have the judgment to do that it should and it doesn't have an
00:27:09
impact on the collective and her decision to carry or not carry a baby doesn't theoretically come with a
00:27:17
probabilistic chance that i may die it does not right but when you choose to not get
00:27:23
vaccinated to a highly transmissible respiratory disease that could kill me or mutate yeah i'm not saying that i
00:27:30
have a say but i do think i should have a say if you're then all of a sudden going to
00:27:34
consume the same resources that i consume where i've signed up to that compact for
00:27:38
public health based on all this here's where i come to what if we gave teachers an off-ramp
00:27:43
listen if you um you you need to be vaccinated to be in the classroom if not you're going to get a one-year
00:27:48
buyout or whatever one month or two months for every year of service so if you've been with us for 20 years
00:27:54
you're gonna get 20 months of pay and or you could say if the virus is spreading at under this
00:28:00
rate in other words you know we we've got under one percent of the population infected or whatever
00:28:06
the the criteria is then you can come to work in the classroom but if this thing
00:28:09
is spreading you're out and that's it and there's an off-ramp here to to david's point unless there's an
00:28:16
arrow like look i i do think you can be a conscientious objector for legitimate reasons again like we we have
00:28:22
these very specific definitions for religious or for health specific reasons that you
00:28:26
ch that you don't get vaccinated i think those should be respected it's not that cohort of people we're talking
00:28:32
about it's everybody else that right now wants to not think for themselves and as a result put everybody else and
00:28:40
themselves in danger yeah i i think the most compelling part of your argument shamath
00:28:45
is that where is the health externality right that that that each person's decision
00:28:52
does have an impact on whether they could be transmitting you know multiplicative contagious
00:28:59
particles and this is why i was in favor of a mass mandate at the beginning of the pandemic is
00:29:04
it's not just an individual decision your your choice actually does affect whether
00:29:09
other people get sick so you know this is why i i do think it also wasn't very expensive correct sacks
00:29:15
i mean was your other point yes exactly potentially high benefit for very low cost
00:29:21
i think we're but but but the thing that maybe i didn't necessarily take into consideration is you know people
00:29:28
complied in such a half-hearted way i mean i do think the mass makes a difference
00:29:32
if it's an n95 quality mask that you put on correctly right right but when people just strap a
00:29:38
sock to their face it's loosely fitting and they don't give a [ __ ] i mean does
00:29:41
that really make a difference i mean i'm very skeptical let me ask you a question
00:29:45
sax and then we'll go to freeburg and then we'll flip to the next topic if we were on our third pandemic or
00:29:51
let's god forbid a second pandemic starts a totally different one you know ebola type or something and
00:29:57
we're on the fifth variant and people are dying at a higher rate does your calculus change tax because
00:30:03
sure because because the the uh the downsides that the cost of you know not not imposing those more
00:30:12
restrictive regulations goes up considerably i mean definitely my thinking today is highly
00:30:17
influenced by the fact that that if you're vaccinated you're call it 95 likely to be taking the most
00:30:26
deadly or serious risks off the table and so the people who are choosing not to get vaccinated
00:30:32
are essentially assuming the risk you know it's like it's like smoking in a way where when i made the movie thing for
00:30:37
smoking christopher buckley told me you know he's the author of the book and he said
00:30:41
look there's something uniquely american about defending people's right to do something that's manifestly
00:30:47
harmful right the main character and thank you for smoking as a spokesman for big tobacco
00:30:52
and he's engaging in political spin but his argument is look people have the right to engage in this
00:30:57
behavior even if it is known to be harmful to them maybe america is the only place in the world
00:31:02
where people buy into arguments like that but i do um i you know look that is that is um that's
00:31:08
freedom is letting people do stupid things you know and um and so we have to weigh
00:31:14
the benefits of of freedom against the against the costs and by the way sorry can i just say
00:31:20
something um smoking is a perfect example because as you know there is now um a non-trivial amount of
00:31:29
law around the liability related to individuals that enabled um secondhand smoke both the smoker
00:31:37
but also other things condo boards other places where all of a sudden you didn't choose to [ __ ] have you
00:31:43
know tara and nicotine my dad worked in bars where people it was a cloud of smoke for
00:31:49
30 years 30 years right they told him he was essentially a smoker it's not it's not just the detrimental activity at the
00:31:55
time remember we've socialized the cost of treatment for people uh through public health
00:32:02
systems and because of that it's not just an individual's choice if there is a socialized cost
00:32:08
for everyone that's now got to pay the price but the government is so omnipresent all of our lives there's
00:32:13
always going to be a social cost to any bad choice people make and to toma's point i mean everybody
00:32:19
uses government services to some degree so that alone can't be the reason i i do
00:32:23
agree that the no no but david what about people speeding on highways at 125 miles an
00:32:29
hour like it's illegal that's illegal but but i think i think your mother is right that the
00:32:33
smoking example is a good one because we do regulate secondhand smoke because there's an externality there's a health
00:32:39
externality to everybody else if you smoke in a public place and so we restrict that but
00:32:44
we don't make smoking illegal we don't stop you from doing it in your own homes or in private places and the argument is
00:32:50
listen if you want to do something that's harmful primarily to you that's your choice as
00:32:56
an american you know and i know people a lot of people don't like that actually this is
00:33:00
a this i posted a tweet that i got just because an opinion is wrong doesn't mean it
00:33:06
should be censored just because the behavior is harmful doesn't mean it should be
00:33:10
prohibited just because something is beneficial doesn't mean it should be required right
00:33:17
it's a completely reasonable tweet yeah i thought it was a pretty inoffensive anodyne tweet
00:33:22
just reminding people that just because again something is is positive doesn't mean you force people to do it and just
00:33:29
because some behavior is harmful you don't you don't ban it i think smoking is a great example of that
00:33:35
right we let people engage in behavior that's harmful to them because freedom is a value in and of itself um for this
00:33:43
i was attacked as a selfish [ __ ] by um by this other pod and i i really like swisher and professor cold takes
00:33:53
professor what cold takes that literally made um an index of all of professor g's you
00:34:00
know takes that macy's would be incredible and amazon will lose its money and yada yada he's kind of obsessed with
00:34:05
youtube chamath prof g yeah who just got his show canceled on bloomberg but they were a little kara
00:34:11
swisher was called sacks an [ __ ] well triggered it was bizarre that they would get
00:34:16
so triggered by this inoffensive tweet but i think what you see here is an example of the way
00:34:21
that the woke mind thinks which is well hold on i don't think kara's woke are you kidding me she's like that she's
00:34:28
like the madame du farger the woke revolution she's always was this character in the french
00:34:36
revolution who admit the names of the next person to be guillotined and uh she was you know one of the the the
00:34:43
leaders of the sans q laws no look cara is constantly ginning up the mob to try and you know guillotine
00:34:48
some no non-woke person yeah i don't think that that's true that's true i think she's kind of moderate you're
00:34:54
trying to you're trying to curry favor with her so you don't know we're not there
00:34:57
no no she i mean she did get it right you are an [ __ ] i mean you are an [ __ ] she got that
00:35:01
she got that she's not old and failing well you are kind of old you look dope you look cool she's effectively saying
00:35:07
we're all [ __ ] because i think all of us have talked about this you're [ __ ] i'm an [ __ ] yeah i love it
00:35:11
own it [ __ ] it i'm not what's your other choice being a whiner on the sidelines
00:35:19
what we've said on this show is that we have a moral imperative to get to get back to normal do we not
00:35:24
that is what we've said and for that she's basically saying that that is a let the meat covered position right that
00:35:32
we are basically we don't care if people get sick and die because of covet that's
00:35:35
not true you know we just have about liverpool here i think we should make people get vaccinated
00:35:43
yeah and you're pretty close to getting people vaccinated i asked you saks if there were three more variants
00:35:48
and this was an acute situation you said you would force oh look if we had if we had a variant of
00:35:54
covid that was as deadly as ebola and as transmissible as delta variant it 100 percent changes the game there's
00:36:01
no question about willing to change the government's ability to put a shotgun based on it's a benefit
00:36:07
it's a yes it's a benefit cost analysis and that's reasonable but look i give freedom
00:36:13
a lot of weight and part of my calculation is the fact that i can get vaccinated to take to
00:36:19
most likely take the most serious risks off the table so while i i am impacted to some degree by other
00:36:26
people's choices i'm much less impacted now that we have functional thinking about this i still
00:36:32
have a problem with the way you're thinking about this because you're using you're viewing this as a linear
00:36:36
problem this thing is transmutating and so i know but there are still billions of people
00:36:42
all over the world who are unvaccinated and we'd be better off focusing on getting them a marshall plan
00:36:48
for the vaccines all these unused doses we're wasting our breath in the united states trying to get these
00:36:53
vaccine hesitant or anti-vax people to get vaccinated did you guys see that um uh emmanuel macron of france
00:37:01
uh you know basically tightened all these restrictions around access to public places going into bars
00:37:07
and cafes they basically put all these rules in place that you have to be vaccinated and you did it in a public
00:37:12
address on tv 22 million people watched it and then after he did this suddenly the vaccination signups went up
00:37:18
to like 20 000 a minute they got four million people sign up to get vaccinated i mean
00:37:25
in france what's the point of being alive and then let me throw a wet blanket on
00:37:29
uh the framing of this on whether all of this talk about forcing vaccinations even makes sense or is possible i
00:37:37
have been to like three events over the last month or two where i was required to be vaccinated
00:37:43
and i literally just took a photo of this index card that i got from this person and sent it
00:37:47
to them which i could go make at kinko's or i could print at home it's like there's i don't my point is i
00:37:54
don't think that there's not a great digital system today to enable the level of restriction that we're
00:38:00
actually talking about how are you actually going to know that people going to the warriors game are
00:38:04
actually vaccinated how are you actually going to know they did it at madison's work and they
00:38:08
they literally had you pull out your id and they matched your name to your vax card and i think printing out a vax card
00:38:13
and faking it if it could be a fine could be a ten thousand dollar fine and so you would do it like anything
00:38:19
else you could you could make a bogus driver's license it's not digital right there's no
00:38:24
there's no kind of centralized system where we know who's actually been vaccinated who's not so so much of this
00:38:29
is just this like analog paper trail thing of like here's this piece of paper that says i'm vaccinated
00:38:33
i think that you're you're never going to really close the hole on this thing now you certainly will see the sort of
00:38:38
psychological behavior that they saw in france which is you just announce the restrictions you
00:38:42
announce these rules everyone signs up or some number of people will sign up but i you know i'm not sure this
00:38:48
actually ends up becoming this truly enforceable mechanism of behavior in society uh over the next uh you know
00:38:54
short while i mean maybe over time we digitize all this stuff but we'll see yeah i mean the best the best case
00:38:59
scenario is that because delta is so transmissible we get to hurt immunity because all the people who didn't get
00:39:04
vaccinated just get it and get the natural antibodies and hopefully this thing crosses
00:39:09
that because we have 60 of adults in the united states have had one shot or more uh which is
00:39:15
why debts probably aren't going up because that's like 75 percent in people over
00:39:18
60 i think so freeburg in your estimation as our science guy with what we have like 30 million people
00:39:25
who've been infected uh that we know of you got to triple that number right because there's people
00:39:29
who we don't know and then you have 65 you have 60 percent so we got to be in the range of 70
00:39:35
have been exposed or been vaccinated so when does it kick in or are we experiencing you know um herd
00:39:42
immunity right now with these low debts um we talked about this before but there
00:39:46
are um you know there's a spectrum of infection right you're you're you you can have viral
00:39:54
replication happening in your body and then your body clears out the virus before you even know because you've got
00:39:59
enough antibodies to that particular strain of a variant of a virus before your body even
00:40:04
you know you start to feel symptoms and there are cases where the virus kind of replicates in an uncontrolled way for a
00:40:10
period of time and you have incredibly bad symptoms and you have inflammation all the stuff that follows
00:40:15
and so you know in terms of how you measure this stuff it's really difficult to say that you're
00:40:22
going to stop all viral replication by getting a certain number of people to be to have been exposed as we've seen
00:40:29
even when you have a broad and diverse antibody pool in your body because you've been
00:40:35
exposed to a vaccine we are still seeing that some of these variants can break through for some
00:40:40
period of time because there's not enough of the antibodies that can actually bind to that specific variant
00:40:44
and so the rate of transmission slows the rate of severe infection goes way down and so on
00:40:51
so it's not as binary as hey we hit herd immunity and now we're done it seems this is you know as we talked
00:40:57
about earlier and as i think everyone is coming to terms with this is going to be an endemic virus and
00:41:03
that means that it's going to be circulating in the population in a modest way causing sometimes severe
00:41:08
sometimes you know modest outbreaks for likely a very long time no matter how many people get it no matter how
00:41:13
many people get vaccinated because you have different levels should we ignore it at what level
00:41:17
should we just say listen that is the steady state how many cases a day how many debts a day
00:41:22
do you think is the steady state that we should just say we just go to work and ignore it
00:41:27
i am a brutal cold-hearted libertarian on this point and i have been since we first talked about this last year
00:41:33
i've always been of the mind that we need to balance the um the the follow-on life effect
00:41:40
from the economic fallout associated with making certain behavioral changes and restrictions relative to the actual
00:41:46
loss of life right so you can never go i i i really think this point about zeroism and this
00:41:51
term about zeroism is an important one you can never get to zero cases what is the acceptable number of cases and what
00:41:58
is the cost to keep that case load down the balance of those two is a very difficult leadership decision
00:42:04
put a number on it but it's about saving lives right so like there are a certain
00:42:09
number of people whose lives are going to be ruined who are some of them will commit suicide
00:42:12
some of them won't be able to earn an income again their businesses are going to get shut down what is the economic
00:42:16
cost of that versus the economic cost of the loss of life versus what i'm saying is what is
00:42:21
the number we had an average of 250 deaths 250 000 case known cases a day at the peak
00:42:27
we had a peak deaths of 4 100 a day we are now at 200 people dying a day and you know 30 000
00:42:35
cases is there a number at which you say let's just focus on getting back to work
00:42:40
and is that number where we are now i'm trying to get it yeah again i wouldn't simplify it to
00:42:45
those data points what i would do again i would look at you know at what age are people dying how many life years
00:42:51
are we losing and how can we address the acute populations that are at risk and the
00:42:55
acute populations that are that are potentially going to be exposed manage those
00:42:59
populations differently than you manage the broader population that has a lower likelihood of risk
00:43:03
of death and a lower likelihood of fatality and the restrictions that you then impose to
00:43:08
you know start to manage uh the risk and the exposure to different populations gets weighed against the saving of life
00:43:14
and the loss of life in both circumstances so it's it's not easy right it's it's
00:43:18
and everyone wants to sum this whole thing up to like how many deaths a day is appropriate
00:43:21
that's not the right answer right because well you're saying how many that part of
00:43:26
it is so obvious right that and we should have known this last summer the obvious part being
00:43:31
that what you want to do is focus your prevention on the part of the population that's
00:43:36
the most at risk and what do we do with lockdowns we literally locked down the entire population
00:43:41
every business it was completely insane we should have focused it on protecting the most at-risk populations isolating
00:43:49
the sick or the people at greatest risk not everybody it was just insane and um i mean i can't believe we're
00:43:55
still having that conversation a year later can i uh before we move on to the next
00:44:00
topic can i read the best can i read the best best comment from sax's tweet so sax's tweet
00:44:06
just because an opinion is wrong it doesn't mean it should be censored just because the behavior is harmful
00:44:11
doesn't mean it should be prohibited and just because something is beneficial doesn't mean it
00:44:15
should be required the best response goes to distantly social rumple whose full name is at wendell shirk who said
00:44:26
this message brought to you by the generic self-serving platitude alert network we now return you to your regularly
00:44:34
scheduled episode of the bland soap opera with the pablum sisters well yeah i look
00:44:40
there there's there's an element of truth to that which is i i almost didn't tweet it because i thought
00:44:44
it was too much of a platitude but the fact that people on the other side got so
00:44:48
triggered by it shows why it was actually useful to to tweet it is they think that if you're calling for
00:44:56
any modicum of freedom or return to normalcy you're basically a selfish [ __ ] i mean it's insane i
00:45:04
mean they want to stay in this world of zero s covis restrictions forever we've got to move
00:45:09
on we're 45 minutes into covin so we got to move on but i think if this is in the influenza
00:45:15
plus or minus hundred percent zone we got to pick a number where we decide we're moving forward as a society
00:45:23
and you know local communities can make decisions if they have outbreaks but i kind of think if this is within you
00:45:28
know 2x of our yearly deaths from you know influenza and just the normal cold i think we move forward
00:45:36
as best we can do we want to go to china cuba i think just real quick before we move away from
00:45:41
this i really want to just highlight the deep mind announcement from this morning
00:45:44
because i think it's actually quite relevant to the tracking of variants and what's been going on
00:45:49
okay so this morning you know deep mind which published alpha fold and we talked about this a
00:45:55
few uh owned by google it's their ai art it's an air owned by google and they basically took
00:46:01
protein structure and uh tried to predict what a protein looks like physically as a function of
00:46:07
uh the dna or rna that codes the amino acids that make up the protein and so again like when you have a string of
00:46:13
amino acids they combine and they fold into a wave it's really hard to predict and that's
00:46:18
the shape of the molecule that we call the protein and then it does something in the body
00:46:22
and historically we've had very hard times understanding how genetic code translates into physical structure of
00:46:28
protein which would allow us to predict what that protein can then do in the body so this morning deep mind
00:46:34
incredibly published a database with the predicted structure of every protein in the human
00:46:40
body and in 10 other species using this this capability that they now have what does
00:46:45
it mean in english and so you know what this means is we now have a physical model of every protein that human dna
00:46:54
can make and that model would allow us to basically now predict what that protein does how it does it
00:47:01
and how certain drugs can bind to those proteins and how certain drugs can affect those
00:47:05
proteins and how we can alter human health by making new molecules or adjusting the genetic code to change the shape of
00:47:13
those proteins in specific and targeted ways so it's an incredible data set that was
00:47:17
just published it's almost like you know releasing the rosetta stone in my opinion uh in terms of we now have
00:47:24
this ability to translate human genetic code into the physical form of the molecules that run our body and do
00:47:29
things in our body they did it for 10 other species and they said that they're going to publish
00:47:33
this proteome database and scale it for all other species of life that we have the sort of data set around
00:47:39
for which they expect will achieve over a hundred million unique proteins in this database over the coming months
00:47:45
freely available and searchable and let me just explain and i know i'm on a monologue here so i'll win the monologue
00:47:50
it's a good one it's a good one um but let me just explain why this is relevant the delta variant what it is is that you
00:47:56
know the the the sars cov2 rna sequence is about 30 000 base pairs long 10 of those or about 3 000 base pairs
00:48:04
make up the spike protein which is the protein at the tip of the cove virus like the coronavirus that
00:48:09
gets into the cells and you know for every 10 people that are infected with coronavirus
00:48:15
there's about one nucleoside mutation one of those base pairs changes and the virus evolves and we don't know
00:48:22
how that change in that genetic code translates into a different structure of the
00:48:28
protein and so we suddenly discover empirically and you know by looking around suddenly
00:48:32
all these people are getting more infected than we're getting infected before we
00:48:36
look at the genetic code and we're like oh here's the changes that happened but we could have with this capability
00:48:41
from alpha fold predicted what changes make the spike protein do a better job binding to human h2
00:48:48
receptors on the cells and getting into cells and what other changes could be made in
00:48:53
the whole genome of the sars cov2 virus that could cause this virus to be more transmissible more deadly
00:48:59
all these sorts of factors because we can now estimate the physical form of that protein by
00:49:04
changing the base pair and so this tool that was released today i think highlights that over the next
00:49:09
decade these sorts of things that are going on with viruses mutating and variants
00:49:13
occurring that are affecting our population can be better estimated and tracked digitally and it gives us the ability to
00:49:21
start to prepare tools and defense mechanisms against them uh with new drugs and new variant models
00:49:26
and new um vaccines well ahead of the oh my god we just got hit with a nuclear bomb let's
00:49:31
clean up the mess kind of in the future so it's an exciting day an exciting moment would they have been
00:49:37
released this david if it hadn't been for covid coming out do you think deepmind just pivoted their entire group
00:49:45
because they have about a thousand people i understand and by the way they pay something in the order of six or
00:49:50
seven hundred thousand a year on average and there's many people there who are getting paid millions of dollars
00:49:54
a year so just think about the scale of what google is spending on this you guys know that they probably sh
00:50:01
shifted a large number of people to work on this you guys because i have long deep roots
00:50:05
at google and um i will tell you that the value system of people there you know the press and the
00:50:11
public will think what they want but i think that the value system of people there drove them to realize the
00:50:17
importance of this work that they're doing with alpha fold and it is important for
00:50:20
humanity and it's important for the health broadly of people they could have kept it all inside
00:50:24
and used it to build therapeutic drug companies and make money from that and i think the importance of this
00:50:29
discovery and this capability um was uh was realized and is published for that very reason
00:50:35
there's a lot of work that deepmind does to optimize ad targeting and ad spending
00:50:39
and all this stuff and they make tens of billions of dollars of incremental revenue for google per year
00:50:44
based on those capabilities and then there are these things that benefit all of us and by putting this
00:50:48
out publicly it's a great good for humanity and uh you know they're they're making it
00:50:53
freely available and searchable um and so i i don't think that covid kind of instigated this because they've
00:50:58
been working on this for a very long time since before kovid and this is a very hard biological
00:51:03
problem that is key to understanding biology and how biology works that's been going on for decades
00:51:08
they've unlocked it with software and they're making it freely available um and you know there will be hundreds
00:51:13
of drug companies that will now start because of what's in that database i mean this is a this is a mitzvah
00:51:18
uh to society to humanity does it change the fact that google is spending uh well
00:51:23
over a billion dollars a year in deep mind and doing projects like this does this change any of your thinking about
00:51:28
breaking them up tremoth or you know how we look at big tech that's a good question no
00:51:38
we learned something very disturbing about big tech this week actually um this is quite a bombshell that jen
00:51:44
pasake dropped from the white house press briefing we got to talk about this she just sort
00:51:49
of casually mentioned that oh yeah by the way the administration is flagging posts
00:51:55
for a social media company for big tech companies to take down to remove accounts they're talking about specific
00:52:00
accounts and posts yeah and she just kind of met just casually mentions oh yeah the big tech companies are very
00:52:07
you know eagerly cooperating with the administration to take down these accounts
00:52:11
accounts she even said that when one of these companies takes down an account the rest should do it too
00:52:18
implying that the white house is providing the central coordinative role in the censorship global block list yeah
00:52:27
let me let's let's take the most charitable view here i know that it's very easy to make this a left versus
00:52:32
right there censoring yada yada trump got banned but if somebody was saying this was microch this was an account
00:52:39
that was claiming that microchips were in the vaccine would it not be how would the and it was
00:52:46
hitting scale you know what would be the way for the white house to inform social media
00:52:52
that there was an account that was saying falsely that microchips were in there and that that was trending
00:52:58
the white house or its officials are free to put out their statements and their position but
00:53:02
this is different this is the white house coordinating behind the scenes with big
00:53:06
tech companies well they're not behind the scenes they're saying they're doing it right here to everybody
00:53:09
correct correct the behavior was behind the scenes but pasaki just admitted it which is why it's such a bombshell look
00:53:15
even the aclu if you were president and there there was an account on facebook youtube twitter that was saying
00:53:22
there was a microchip from bill gates this is a this is a blatant violation of the
00:53:26
people's first amendment would you then tell them how would you you are allowed your the first amendment gives
00:53:31
you the right to say things that are untrue it is not the business of government to
00:53:36
declare what is true and what is false okay even even hold on even the aclu came out of retirement we
00:53:45
hadn't we haven't heard from them for the last year during any of these parts of the
00:53:49
aclu yeah we haven't heard from them during the past year during all this um activity that's been
00:53:53
going on with the counts being blocked and ghosted they finally came out of retirement to
00:53:58
say that that this is a dangerous violation of people's first amendment rights you
00:54:03
cannot have the government saying what is true and what is false and then denying people the right um
00:54:10
to express their opinions based on what the government thinks is the truth and by the way there's been a very subtle
00:54:17
change here in the language that's being used if you remember what the argument used
00:54:22
to be that we have to stop disinformation does uh now it's shifted to we have to
00:54:27
stop misinformation so those two things are very different it's kind of like that well it's kind of
00:54:31
like the difference in the term equality versus equity they sound similar but they actually mean very different
00:54:37
things so disinformation is actually a campaign of a purposeful purposeful campaign of propaganda and
00:54:44
lies usually put forward covertly so it's the fsb you're some intelligence agency putting
00:54:51
out whatever putting out disinformation usually under false accounts so in that case we can say no you can't do
00:54:58
that because you can't engage in deception around who you are right but misinformation
00:55:05
is simply information that's being put out that frankly you disagree with okay and or it could be discernibly
00:55:11
wrong wait you're you're kind of framing that work it could be you're putting out information
00:55:15
like there's a microchip in the vaccine that is explicitly known to be wrong look the the lab leak theory was
00:55:21
considered misinformation by these same people three months ago okay but let's take the specific example
00:55:25
of there's a microchip if it was the case that they said there's a microchip in the vaccine would
00:55:30
you be okay with the white house contacting social media coming saying hey you got
00:55:34
these accounts that are saying there's a microchip you might want to look into it they're
00:55:37
not saying take it down they're saying take a look into it that's not the white house's business do
00:55:41
i believe in the microchip theory no of course not it's absolutely ridiculous but it is not the business
00:55:46
okay who to ban and who to block list i think they didn't tell them to ban i think they told them to be aware of it
00:55:53
go ahead chime off i think your framing's wrong sex guys no no swasaki said that when one site takes it down they
00:55:59
should all take it down and then biden on top of it comes out and pours kerosene on the fire by saying that
00:56:06
social media sites are literally killing people well yeah by allowing by allowing this
00:56:11
misinformation so here we go let's be honest is the president of the united states using the bully pulpit
00:56:18
to call social media uh sites mass murderers by virtue of allowing people to have
00:56:24
free speech trump never used language that intemperate i don't remember him ever calling
00:56:32
this is the exact reason you you can't have a strangle hold on distribution because
00:56:39
it will get perverted and then we either have people we like or people we don't like
00:56:44
in these positions of power or people we like or people we don't like regulating
00:56:49
and it's constantly flipping and we're all just doomed and bound to get [ __ ] over
00:56:54
so back to the thing that friedberg brought up before i think alpha fold is incredible
00:57:00
i think google has been an incredible company they make money hand over fist they waste an enormous amount of money
00:57:07
and all kinds of trash so it's good that they were actually able to do something
00:57:10
useful here i generally think that companies like google and facebook and amazon unfortunately
00:57:21
do not allow the constructive form of capitalism that people want in today's society they're
00:57:30
just too big tremoth makes a great point which is we've got these big tech monopolies
00:57:33
who've become gatekeepers over content okay and what the administration has done and
00:57:38
their allies in congress is hang a sword of damocles over the heads of these big tech companies
00:57:44
they've appointed lina khan to be the enforcer at the ftc they've got their six bills in congress
00:57:48
right now they've held congressional hearings around taking away section 230 protection which is very economically
00:57:54
advantageous for these big tech companies so they position the sword perfectly over the heads these big
00:57:59
tech companies threatening to break them up and rein them in and then jen pasake and the white house
00:58:05
go to them and say we want you to take down these accounts that we don't agree with
00:58:09
this is misinformation okay that is a huge danger to free speech it's basically like the administration saying to these
00:58:16
big tech companies nice little social network you got there it'd be a real shame if anything happened to it look at
00:58:22
what's going on don't you want them broken up i do want them broken up but what i don't know
00:58:27
which is if you want them to hold the sword or do you not want them to hold the sword i actually want the sword to
00:58:31
come crashing i actually want the sword to come out swing the sword not hold it over and then use it for extortion
00:58:36
yeah that's actually a great explanation then freedom yes i'm trying to moderate here freeburg do
00:58:42
you give a [ __ ] we've talked about this spent all day on his phone he has not dialed into this puzzle i'm with you
00:58:49
guys i thought we just went over the alpha fold stuff way too fast i mean the arguing over freedom of speech is
00:58:58
happening and all of this debate freedberg at the same time that we are making incredible
00:59:03
life-changing moments for humanity two different companies went to space last week
00:59:10
with civilians and then we are basically uh defining the blueprint for the human and every other species on
00:59:19
the planet and we're fighting over people too stupid to take a goddamn vaccine that would
00:59:26
save everybody's life and let us continue on and people are dunking on bezos for not reading the room i
00:59:33
don't know if you saw this freedberg but how do you think about the space race in relation to reading the room etc
00:59:40
progress technologically um will only arise with capital so you can assume that that progress you
00:59:48
know it's not like someone stumbled into a cave and discovered a rocket ship or stumbles into a cave and discovered
00:59:54
alpha fold uh there are years of toiling and labs like edison did making the light bulb um edison had to
01:00:01
raise a ton of money uh to get that light bulb uh project off the ground if you guys haven't read uh
01:00:07
i'm trying to remember the biography there's uh uh wizards of something um it's got
01:00:12
wizards in the title it's a good biography of medicine and um uh you know and and i feel like
01:00:18
we're at this moment where the wizard of menlow park yeah i think that's the the wizard of oz park that's
01:00:23
right and the amount of capital that it takes to make these breakthroughs at alpha fold
01:00:29
or at waymo uh or what bezos and elon are doing um is so extraordinary that you have to be in a position where
01:00:38
you can fund this work you're not gonna get a bunch of kickstarters to fund a spacex like
01:00:43
project or a you know blue origin like project and so i think that the benefit of scale that comes out of some of these
01:00:52
businesses is that we can do research and development and we can progress our capabilities as a species forward in
01:01:00
a way that would have never been possible if not for the capitalist system and the
01:01:04
ability for these businesses to accumulate a large enough pool of capital to take on
01:01:08
multiple billion dollar bets and like chimoff said waste a lot of money and lose on nine out of ten of them
01:01:14
but if that one billion dollar bet works it's worth 500 billion dollars and that money continuously gets
01:01:19
reinvested and look at what google did with waymo they put over a billion dollars in that project before everyone
01:01:24
woke up and said my god self-driving is real it's possible and it kick-started an industry and i i
01:01:29
just feel like the amount of money and not to mention the fact that like these are free markets so these
01:01:34
businesses google you don't have to search on google you don't have to buy from amazon but
01:01:39
everyone benefits from searching on google everyone benefits from buying on amazon
01:01:43
and the capability of these businesses is rooted entirely on the fact that consumers are choosing to use their
01:01:49
products and their services because they are so good and so i don't feel like these guys are
01:01:54
um screwing people over you can consider the small business model as being like you know hey maybe we shouldn't have had
01:02:01
small business retailers for as long as we did because at some point distribution was going to be
01:02:05
economically advantaged by being centralized and therefore all consumers are going to
01:02:09
benefit by centralizing is there really a right to maintain local distribution sites that we call
01:02:14
small businesses that should remain in business forever maybe there's a way to help them
01:02:18
transition into a new business model or a new market but same with what happened with the taxi
01:02:22
industry technology will force these evolutions the capital accumulates and that capital
01:02:26
can be invested in things that we would have never imagined um on a smaller scale but go ahead show
01:02:31
up yeah no i do think sympathetic to what you were saying i do think that if you look at every
01:02:35
platform innovation that's ever happened so whether it's you know we go from no print to print
01:02:41
you know to newspapers to radio to television you've always first started with a
01:02:47
pendulum that was very much firmly in the camp of centralized monopolistic or oligopolistic
01:02:56
kind of early outcomes and either through legislation or through innovation then the pendulum swings to
01:03:02
decentralization that's typically happened right and you can look at all of these industries that's gone through
01:03:07
that so it stands to reason that technology will be not dissimilar to those things
01:03:12
and everybody says the argument is well no because technology has these specific
01:03:16
features of network effects and lock-in but i think that betrays this idea that legislatively you
01:03:22
can come and just basically destroy the china and the china shop and you have to just start all over
01:03:27
so it's likely that we're going to move to a place that's a healthier outcome for everybody
01:03:31
and obviously we want things like alpha fold to exist and we want things like waymo to exist
01:03:37
the question is how should they exist and if they come out of the goodwill of google it is just so
01:03:45
easily as likely that some other person let's say it wasn't sundar and ruth peratt but two other people who
01:03:52
didn't like it these things could have been very different forms and shapes and not
01:03:56
existed at all and i think that's the arbitrary nature of it which is not necessarily free
01:04:00
market capitalism that doesn't benefit us should we chamoth be upset that bezos is going to space and spending tens of
01:04:08
billions of dollars that he made from amazon he had a bad press conference let's just
01:04:13
be clear at the end of the day he has wanted to do this his entire life he built an incredible company
01:04:19
he was able to take a lot of that capital and invested in it he's invested billions of dollars in other
01:04:26
things 10 billion dollars in climate change his ex-wife has invested you know six billion dollars
01:04:31
just last year alone in all kinds of good works so those two individuals because of
01:04:37
their success i think will generally do and have done the right thing let's not get that confused with a
01:04:43
horrendous press conference where he just was well i think you said it you know the thing that he said around uh you
01:04:52
know i just want to thank the customers and the employees for paying for this it sounded flippant and it didn't
01:04:59
really acknowledge the incredible amount of heavy lifting and hard work that he did acknowledge in the clip
01:05:04
from 2000 on charlie rose right so if you if you actually played those two things back side by side you'd say is
01:05:12
this the same person one was thoughtful extremely respectful the other one was now maybe he was just amped up i mean i
01:05:19
could see him and so and so he just wasn't thinking about it but you know honestly like look
01:05:28
he is smart enough and that team is smart enough to say we're assuming you're coming back
01:05:32
so here are some [ __ ] talking points why don't you just look at those on the way down as you float down to earth
01:05:37
and let's just make sure we nail this and put our best foot forward that is where i think he probably has some
01:05:42
regrets based on how people reacted this bezos space flight was a real rorschach test
01:05:48
because he took heat from both the right and the left but the criticism was very
01:05:52
different you know the critique i heard from the right was that uh he's having some sort of mid-life
01:05:57
crisis and the rocket looked too much like a phallus okay fine whatever that the criticism from
01:06:02
the left was um it had much more to do with a real contempt for private initiative and
01:06:09
private enterprise you could almost see them being horrified and dismayed that you know
01:06:14
why was he doing this with his own money you know if this had been a nasa flight
01:06:18
i don't think they would have had a problem with it and so you see here that even though bezos has been so much
01:06:25
more effective using his own money uh to do this that the leftist reflexively hates that uh and and and and they kept
01:06:34
saying well how dare he use this money the money could have been used on something else so much better well
01:06:40
what do you think of that argument yeah i think it's wrong in a couple of respects it basically implies
01:06:45
that the purveyors of these social programs are better distributors of societal resources than our greatest
01:06:51
inventors and i don't think that's true you look at these social programs they want to keep doubling down on
01:06:57
they're not working you know these programs our policies towards homelessness is not failing because of
01:07:02
lack of funding there's a tremendous amount of funding in san francisco they're spending 60
01:07:06
thousand dollars per tent per year they're spending 300 000 in social services per homeless person per year
01:07:12
lack of funding is not the problem the approach is the problem we spend something like twenty five
01:07:16
thousand dollars per pull per pupil in california schools the test scores are going down
01:07:21
so you know these people who are criticizing bezos don't know what to do with the money
01:07:27
they don't know how to spend anything they're not good at executing however bezos or elon these are two of
01:07:33
our greatest inventors let them go let them go because you know they are pushing the boundaries and i do
01:07:39
believe there will be great engineering and scientific breakthroughs that come as a
01:07:44
result of what they're doing with this new space race it's also super uninformed if
01:07:48
correct me if i'm wrong here but they were saying that they they should have been doing more initiatives on
01:07:53
earth if you actually and they were kind of talking about climate change and the use
01:07:57
of these fuels to get to space and number one uh the the rocket ship fuel my understanding in these
01:08:03
is less than the what happens in a 747 so put that aside and then second elon has done more for
01:08:10
global warming with tesla than anybody in the and the battery packs i think in modern society i can't think of somebody
01:08:17
in the private sector who's done more and then has there ever been a get there's never been a gift
01:08:21
of 10 billion dollars to one cause let alone one cause which bezos gave which was climate change
01:08:27
no no nobody has done it also hasn't you would know chamoth i thought richard branson had
01:08:32
done a lot for globe warming i thought he was very involved in the carbon uh credits space i think that we're
01:08:37
witnessing something that can best be described as people who have reached a point in their life
01:08:45
where they've realized that they're impotent getting incredibly angry at people who
01:08:52
are willing to be wrong but want to just have a chance to be on the field and try
01:08:57
and have the freedom to do so and that just literally infuriates a certain class of people it
01:09:03
proves itself out by what david said we are not in a funding crisis we are running
01:09:08
10 20 trillion dollar deficits you know or sorry uh 10 you know hundreds of billions of dollar deficits 10
01:09:15
20 trillion dollar debt levels that are increasing every year we have a surveyed of money we print
01:09:22
money whenever we want we don't have a shortage of money we have a shortage of capable people who
01:09:27
know what to do with that money and in the absence of people being able to do things
01:09:34
they would rather other people not do things not because it's not the right thing to do but because it makes them
01:09:38
feel impotent right and and so what what is what is driving that i think you there's a real contempt for private
01:09:45
initiative and and jason you're right you see it in the hatred towards elon nobody has done
01:09:50
more to actually reduce carbon emissions than elon i mean even the best gifts period end of
01:09:57
story i mean the bezos gift to some philanthropy i don't know if that's going to make a
01:10:01
difference or not you're right that he's putting his money where his mouth is on that issue but
01:10:06
it's indisputable that elon the electric car industry would not exist without elon and yet there is contempt
01:10:13
and hatred for the fact that he did this through private initiative if they became
01:10:17
because he does it in a way that is not checking the boxes for this cohort of people
01:10:25
who feel incredibly insecure and fragile emotionally they don't like that he says
01:10:31
what he wants they don't like that he does what he wants they don't like that he dresses
01:10:35
the way he does they don't like any of it because it's not conformist enough it's not about the
01:10:40
look people it's also about the money that's the wealth that's been accumulated too
01:10:44
well no no hold on i don't think that's what it is at all no i actually think what it is is psychological it is
01:10:49
nothing about money i think what we are witnessing and i think social media has just blown the
01:10:54
cover off it is a psychological awakening that people have which is that they were comfortable
01:11:01
knowing that there was a class of insiders and a huge cohort of outsiders and they
01:11:07
just believed the world would function as it should now you see people migrating through
01:11:12
this membrane achieving enormous amounts of success basically eclipsing every single insider
01:11:18
possible by orders of magnitude and it breaks people's brains because they don't like it because now they
01:11:24
think why didn't it happen to me why not me and the thing is because you're not capable and at
01:11:30
somewhere along the way hard working you're not dedicated you didn't try or you didn't try
01:11:35
they didn't act with agency i mean look every day every day the greatest thing that i've
01:11:40
learned about the public markets now having been you know purely on the early stage technology side
01:11:46
building running then investing is i get a mark every day right now to do both businesses i get a score scorecard every
01:11:53
day and some days i really think to myself maybe i'm just not good enough today and i say to myself that is true today
01:12:03
and then the the difference is tomorrow i have a choice which is i wake up and i
01:12:07
decide am i going to go back at it or not and i'm going to game and i'm not going to hate on other
01:12:13
people who had a good day today just because i had a bad day and that's what i think we're going
01:12:19
through we're going through and social media allows it to happen and it allows you to put it out there
01:12:24
you can hide behind a screen name you can basically say whatever you want to vent
01:12:29
this pent-up frustration watching journalists doing it of course of course because these
01:12:35
journalists are doing it too they're just so bitter that they feel dunking on the greatest inventors of our time is
01:12:43
a productive use the difference is journalists do it with a real screen name under the guise of
01:12:48
journalism everybody else does it with a fake screen name and it's all just a bunch of trolling in
01:12:53
order to do something really great like bezos or like elon you have to believe that you have
01:12:57
agency over your own life you have to believe that you can accomplish great things
01:13:02
you have to you know act with with purpose and is that really what we're teaching kids
01:13:06
to uh today in schools what we're teaching them is they're either victims or oppressors
01:13:12
it's some intersectional framework we're not teaching them about earned success we're teaching them about
01:13:17
privilege which is you know is presumptively ill-gotten and it's all about a transference
01:13:23
of privilege and um and basically money from people who are oppressors in this framework to people
01:13:31
who are victims but no one's talking about how you actually create changes successfully abundance right
01:13:38
abundance it's all a negative sum it's always a negative sum game free bird go ahead
01:13:42
i dance back to the kim kardashian sex tape i think that there was this moment where
01:13:48
someone who was didn't do anything didn't have a career wasn't doing anything work wise but was
01:13:54
kind of a pseudo celebrity for being a celebrity it's like the paris hilton nicole richie era right like uh
01:14:01
folks who don't really have much to talk about except that they're the ones that people are talking about and
01:14:06
then that sex tape turned her into a superstar and then she became a billionaire
01:14:11
a few years later and so um you know there there is this kind of poignant moment i
01:14:16
think where folks are like wait a second you don't have to do anything to get really rich in this
01:14:22
country you don't have to do anything to achieve all this fame therefore the ex the kind of assumption
01:14:28
is hey you know what there are people that just get stuff and get to do what they want to do and the rest
01:14:33
of us don't um and i do think that social media is the magnifying glass that takes those
01:14:39
those moments and makes them very big and kind of then that becomes the assumed standard
01:14:44
when the reality is i mean all four of us worked really [ __ ] hard all four of us came from nothing i don't
01:14:51
know about sax but i mean the rest of us his dad was an immigrant doctor from south africa and
01:14:56
he moved to south asia i'm just doing 80s well i mean i mean i think all of us graduated
01:15:01
college deeply in debt and then we all worked our way out of debt and we all found ways to work
01:15:07
really hard and find opportunities for ourselves in this incredible country and to build value and to build
01:15:13
businesses to realize those returns and we don't start out as elites we were never elite we were always the
01:15:20
struggling you know immigrant entrepreneurs that got ourselves to where we are because we clawed and we pushed and we
01:15:27
fought and we had grit we had determination and we had smarts and we had put in the effort
01:15:31
and i think that that's not really and so did bezos and so did elon and i don't think that
01:15:37
there is any standard of elitism that endowed in them like maybe in you know the british the days of the british
01:15:42
monarchy these kind of inalienable rights to have the freedom that they have and i think that that and i think that
01:15:48
that's so important because people miss that point and they think that kim kardashian
01:15:53
or the random bolt of lightning or the elite is the kind of endowed upon people in a
01:15:58
way that's unfair they're misreading the situation everyone else is missing out yeah they misread the situation so a
01:16:05
couple things kim kardashian may have gotten some initial fame because of her sex tape
01:16:10
but [ __ ] if she's not an incredible business person because from there to now that's execution totally there's a lot
01:16:16
of there's a lot of toiling hard work good decision-making she [ __ ] nailed it was i lucky to have actually joined
01:16:23
facebook versus myspace yes but when i was there did i [ __ ] hit the cover off the ball
01:16:29
god damn yes you know was i lucky to have started social capital and be able to raise
01:16:34
capital sure but then did i have to help find a team coach that team work with them make good investments
01:16:40
that's [ __ ] hard and i think what people forget is that this takes a lot of hard work
01:16:46
that there's all kinds of levels of success that you can be proud of all kinds of different
01:16:51
accomplishments what i loved is when friedberg used us and elon and bezos in the same
01:16:56
sentence because i catch myself where i'm ashamed sometimes or i'm like i am not as good as those two guys so
01:17:03
how dare i use my name in the same sentence as their name and then i think wait a minute what
01:17:08
the [ __ ] am i quibbling over like this is insane in any way shape or form we've all made it
01:17:13
sure there's different degrees but it's beyond that it matters at this point and this is what i think we're living in
01:17:19
a society where it really distorts you so if how do we change it how do we change people from thinking
01:17:25
that it's random and that you can't do it because there are a group of people who
01:17:30
but there are a group of people who believe the system is rigged i cannot become chamath
01:17:34
and i'm stuck i'm stuck in a rut and i can't get out i can't get out how do we change that belief yeah the whiners and
01:17:40
the complainers and the haters are stuck in a massive run and i think the thing that happened and
01:17:45
i said it last part i'll say it again and maybe i'll just say it every [ __ ] pod
01:17:49
it is not about winning and losing it is about trying and learning and that is a huge thing it's about a
01:17:56
learning mindset it's about this idea that things are changing so [ __ ] fast the only thing that i can do to stay
01:18:05
safe is to learn how to learn because things will constantly be changing underfoot but what do you say to the
01:18:11
single mother with three kids who who is in a town where the the factory is shutting down and she's
01:18:17
losing her job and she doesn't have the resources to move she she is not the person that hates elon
01:18:22
musk or jeff bezos i will [ __ ] do because aren't there institutional ruts in the united states yeah
01:18:28
i understand these are two completely different topics my point is if you go online it is filled with
01:18:36
p a small cohort of people that are positive and then a large cohort of people that
01:18:41
are silently trying to just gain information and a small vocal minority of bitter people who
01:18:47
can't do [ __ ] and all i'm talking about privileged people well who knows if they're
01:18:52
privileged but i'm just saying they're getting paid a hundred thousand to work at the election i just think
01:18:56
that these people have been check boxers their whole lives they tried to play the team sports they
01:19:01
were told to they went to the schools they tried to do the the cfa the mba the this or that
01:19:07
nothing worked for them they work in an environment where they don't feel any equity actually this is where equity
01:19:14
is important they feel disenfranchised and they're angry and as a result they just want
01:19:21
everything to be different so that nobody wins because they can't win but if they were winning they would be
01:19:26
the first one to say shut the [ __ ] door behind me i'm convinced of it 100 yeah the irony
01:19:32
is that the people you're talking about all went to these elite institutions and and they imbibed these ideologies
01:19:40
and philosophies and i think the people who have been successful went to those not in all cases but they
01:19:47
went to those places and then rebelled against it or just shut it out here's what we should do here's what we
01:19:52
should do we should all contribute 5 or 10 million bucks into a into an llc we should call pegasus
01:19:58
we should use pegasus to infiltrate all the fake screen names on twitter and then index that to linkedin to
01:20:04
figure out where they all went to school and what they do and just publish a new
01:20:07
database of all the haters well i mean it's how funny would that be i i it's very interesting because i'm
01:20:14
watching a group of these complainers leave traditional mainstream media because
01:20:19
i'm focused on journalists because i was one and i'm watching them leave journalism a small group of them and
01:20:25
become entrepreneurs on sub stack or their own products and i feel like there's a little group of them
01:20:31
who are realizing holy [ __ ] i can make a million dollars if i apply myself and i quit the new
01:20:35
york times and i go start my own publication right and i actually say something interesting and differentiated not just
01:20:40
towing the party line at the new york times exactly there's a whole little there's a little
01:20:44
crack here in this like i'll say i'll say they are just as successful as elon musk
01:20:49
and jeff bezos the the financial quantum may be different but i bet you the personal [ __ ] satisfaction
01:20:57
quantum is the same and this is a little key this is the key you could be running a 500 000
01:21:03
your business and you could feel like a million [ __ ] bucks yeah you have a nice house you have a
01:21:10
nice family you employ a couple people you provide a good life you do what you want to do when you want to do it
01:21:16
the sense of freedom that comes with that and agency and agency is the same as them
01:21:23
and maybe in some ways the super richest guys in the world actually have less agency than these
01:21:27
guys would because they're so you know scheduled and people are coming after them all the
01:21:32
time one of my big takeaways from being in the tech industry for 20 years is that if you're smart hard working and
01:21:39
don't have behaviors that sabotage yourself you will be successful in this industry
01:21:44
you know over two decades i mean i've just seen how could you not you have such tailwinds
01:21:48
at your back there's so much value being created we saw over the past year more money
01:21:54
more lp dollars have gone into venture capital by far than any other year and more money more returns is coming out
01:22:00
that's why more money is going on no i'm on the call when you say anybody could be successful
01:22:05
just by showing it right and and you said that but the first part is the critical part you just said who are
01:22:10
not prone to self-sabotage there is an enormous number of people who are prone to self i was one i am
01:22:16
still one but i broke yourself yourself your ego he blew up his that's firm but i think he blew it up
01:22:26
because there was creative destruction i think he wasn't enjoying it and he needed to start
01:22:29
oh he's talked about it publicly he said it but the blowing up of when how do you
01:22:34
reconcile the blowing up of the firm chamoth whatever number of years later this is
01:22:39
all old news it's like you know the amount of success and capital and money that we've made
01:22:46
is undisputable and uh i've made it under all kinds of weather conditions so you know it all kind of speaks for
01:22:53
itself but the problem is again if you ask an average person i don't think they care i don't think they know
01:22:58
i don't think they have an opinion if you ask some you know i'm interested in how you
01:23:04
reconcile or look back on it now it's so much distance i'll tell you from an outside perspective how i reconcile
01:23:09
chamath's decision there is i think that as you become more successful your tolerance for doing stuff you don't
01:23:14
want to do really goes down zero it goes to zero hundred dollars about this got to a point where
01:23:20
he didn't want to be doing it and he blew it up zero by the way that that that is a characterization as well that
01:23:25
you know sometimes in in your career you have to make it and in your personal life you
01:23:29
have to make a tough decision and there is there is no good outcome there is no good
01:23:35
way there's no grateful way to do it but there are these moments where you got a
01:23:38
rock falling on you from one side and a rock falling on you from the other side and you're gonna have to make a tough
01:23:42
decision to get out of the way i said to myself a long time ago that if i was ever lucky to actually be
01:23:48
wealthy enough where um my wealth would change by um meaningful amounts every order of
01:23:55
magnitude i would do something different um and so you know you can do the [ __ ] math
01:24:02
so there it is it's interesting being friends with you and watching it and then also i hate to give
01:24:09
you know any credit there it is but being friends with phil hellmuth and watching him set outrageous goals
01:24:14
for himself in poker i just thought you know what you got to set some outrageous goals for yourself
01:24:19
and that's how i sort of broke through as i just said the minute i want to be number one at
01:24:22
everything i do i want to be the largest syndicate the most jason prolific investor the
01:24:27
minute i realized that i was basically going to become you know a billionaire because of my facebook
01:24:34
stock i [ __ ] quit and the craziest thing about it is i left so much stock on the table it's like two
01:24:41
three billion dollars of [ __ ] stock i couldn't care less and then and then you know once i
01:24:46
figured out that there was something that you can do with capital that's even more meaningful than just investing in
01:24:52
companies at a small scale but now you can you know control companies and really
01:24:55
allocate and shape how economy flows i made a different set of decisions and now i'm here and if i increase it by
01:25:01
another order of magnitude i'll make a different set of decisions and that's poorly understood by folks
01:25:07
because again it doesn't map into a world view but the point is it maps into something
01:25:11
that keeps me whole and sane and it allows me to not be zero-sum about everybody else's success
01:25:17
and that's what i think we need to teach people try stuff it's okay to fail because that's as long
01:25:23
as you're not self-sabotaging yourself david said it so well you will eventually be successful what
01:25:29
have you learned david you know in this next chapter being an investor capital allocator
01:25:34
that me yeah david you well just yeah no it's what i said i mean just well i mean the thing that's happening
01:25:43
right now is just the tech economy keeps getting bigger and bigger it's just an explosion there's an
01:25:47
explosion in the number of unicorns explosion of the amount of funding that's available explosion and the
01:25:52
amount of returns being generated there are now so many vcs that vcs are literally throwing money at
01:26:00
people i mean any half-decent idea now gets funded the idea that somehow this ecosystem is
01:26:06
elitist or exclusionary it's absurd right i mean you've got micro vcs now who no one has to go to sand hill road
01:26:14
anymore right i mean there are so many ways there's nobody on hill road it's a ghost town remember a
01:26:18
traffic jam i went i went down there the other day and there was no traffic jam i was
01:26:23
speaking at stanford and literally i was like i got to put 15 minutes into my drive to get through
01:26:27
that sandhill road because it was at 8 30. right i zipped down central road to stanford
01:26:32
there was two cars the the tech ecosystem is so osmotic it's so permeable in terms
01:26:39
of allowing new people and in fact it's sucking in all the talent it can find because it
01:26:43
can't hire enough people even in the worst economic conditions and yet when it comes to talking about
01:26:51
social and political talking about opportunity in social and political terms the only thing you ever hear is that
01:26:59
you know the ecosystem is somehow elitist or exclusionary and that's old that's old news that that
01:27:04
might have been valid 15 20 years ago i know when i went to santo road for the first time 15
01:27:09
20 years ago it was a bunch of white partners who went to stanford or had a mbas from you know harvard but
01:27:17
that's not the case now it's a bunch of people with rolling funds and micro vcs and syndicates totally
01:27:21
and everything in between if you're so wrapped up in in being a social justice warrior
01:27:26
that you've just missed that there is like basically infinite opportunity you know then it's on you you're
01:27:32
sabotaging yourself and then five ten years later you're still stuck in that role and then
01:27:37
you become bitter and then you become better to jamal's point free brook how hard was it for you to
01:27:41
leave google and what was that like i was at google for two and a half years uh i had gone through
01:27:47
i joined before the ipo i was like a couple hundred employees just under a thousand employees and then
01:27:52
we went public i got this huge bonus from sergey to stick around uh when i was thinking about huge i mean
01:28:01
for me it was like um seven figures it was yeah it was a couple thousand shares of stock
01:28:08
and like 250 000 of cash and i gave it up um you know be worth a lot of money but
01:28:15
i just felt like and i learned so much at google and i had such an appreciation uh for the team there in the company and
01:28:21
by the way i worked at google and all of a sudden the company went public and i could buy
01:28:25
a house i mean it was an incredible moment for me and and and i suddenly felt what jamaat
01:28:30
talked about which is this freedom in my life suddenly i had hit that that next plateau
01:28:36
of wealth where i now had a couple hundred thousand dollars of net worth and i could leave or i guess i had over
01:28:43
a million dollars of net worth and i could now leave and go do something i wanted to go do with my
01:28:47
no i had a couple hundred thousand dollars and i could go leave and do what i wanted to do
01:28:52
which was to build my own business and have the freedom to make decisions and um and so i honestly felt
01:28:59
like really fine just leaving all that money behind i left i left millions of dollars behind
01:29:04
uh for when i left google after being there for two and a half years to start my company
01:29:08
um and you know it was a struggle right like i mean as you guys know building a business which i
01:29:12
did from 2006 to 2013 um was a nightmare every day was a nightmare i i say uh in entrepreneurship i said
01:29:22
this publicly before but it feels like every day you're taking a step backwards and one out of five days you take a five
01:29:27
step leap forward so at the end of a week you're one step ahead of where you started but your
01:29:32
existential memory is that you're failing every day every day and suddenly you wake up and
01:29:37
seven years have gone by and you're like oh [ __ ] we've got an amazing business
01:29:40
and someone wants to buy it for a billion dollars and um if you don't have the grit and the guts
01:29:45
uh and the determination to push through those those daily battles and deal with
01:29:49
that that hardship uh you know and i don't think that being in the comfort of the big system of
01:29:54
google felt right for me i think being in the playing field and battling it out every day is right
01:29:59
for me um and so it was the right it was the right call for me obviously it worked out but you know still
01:30:05
i i make choices in my life in terms of what do i want to do do i want to go live on a yacht or
01:30:09
have some luxury or do whatever and i prefer to just make great businesses and turn science into into commercial
01:30:15
opportunity and that's how i choose this that might never and i just wanted to send this out to
01:30:18
the whole panel do you ever think you know having hit the home runs and having the cash to literally retire at
01:30:26
this age and then just you know kite board or do whatever do you ever think about
01:30:31
retirement and not going into work [ __ ] no okay yeah you wanna do you feel you
01:30:38
wanna work harder yesterday yesterday as an example was an incredible day because i was able to um
01:30:47
bicycle with nat and uh the youngest to go get a gelato i had a kickoff meeting for i had a
01:30:57
kickoff meeting for a startup that's doing something incredible uh in batteries where you know starting from scratch
01:31:06
series a co-founders me and the other into the other director and we're starting literally starting
01:31:15
and i remember the feeling of having done this now 30 or 40 times and it's the best
01:31:20
feeling [Applause] and then i and then i had a call because i'm trying to put a you know more than a
01:31:26
billion dollars to work in a different battery idea and i thought to myself god like i'm so [ __ ] lucky
01:31:35
um and it's it was a grindy long day and i had never felt more thankful so why would i
01:31:42
you know you could and i don't know i i feel just so blessed saks you ever think about hanging up um
01:31:49
or are you more motivated to go to work every day are you annoyed yeah i mean the thing that's giving me the
01:31:54
most energy right now is we're in uh a private beta on call-in near this app that we incubated
01:32:00
and um i mean it's better it's it's good and it's getting better every day and i'm really enjoying tinkering
01:32:06
on it and i feel like you know i've you know it's kind of like a tinkerer by the way you're a good
01:32:11
product that you're good you're good at the tickling you know we tried to hire sax's vp of product at uh facebook
01:32:18
what yeah what would that have paid him i used 2 000 sacks no no because i did yammer instead and
01:32:32
you know yammer was successful and i got to be my own boss and that was better you know so i don't know if i probably
01:32:37
wouldn't have made as much money but look i've done like you guys i've done made lots of decisions that made me less
01:32:43
money if i just stayed at paypal for 20 years my stock would have been worth many many billions right that's
01:32:49
why i tell people don't sell everything let your winners ride at least partially
01:32:54
yeah i mean look my i was an investor in facebook if i just kept all of that stock that'd be worth a billion dollars
01:32:59
today so it's pretty crazy well sell some just don't sell everything that's my new philosophy yeah so your
01:33:06
point about your point about what gives me enjoyment i mean i'm really having fun
01:33:11
tinkering with this app and you know what it's like it's like it's like a new season if you're in like
01:33:16
the nba or something it's like can we make a championship run can we get one more ring you know
01:33:22
and so you're like you know it'd be like saying to somebody hey you already got you know to a nba an nba
01:33:28
champion hey you got three rings why do you want a fourth you know and it's like are you kidding me while
01:33:32
i'm still in this league well i'm young enough and healthy enough to make a run at one more at one more ring how could
01:33:41
you not want to do that you know you got to go for it i've got to go forward i can see you where you're
01:33:46
engaged which is great to see all right listen it's been an amazing episode uh we will see you all next week if you
01:33:52
like the show thanks the end we're not going to be something everybody go try to do
01:33:59
something anything possible try it just try outside your comfort zone read something that
01:34:05
you wouldn't have otherwise read love you guys but yeah i love you guys love you back see you soon
01:34:10
love everybody listening to everybody i mean literally if you're listening to this
01:34:14
and you are buying into this that the system is right neutral don't be a troll don't be a douche like
01:34:20
the system is not rigged if anything the system is rigged for you to participate and succeed join
01:34:26
the party the system is malleable the system is if you want to change the world the
01:34:33
system is malleable enough that if you pursue it in the right way you can make it you can make a
01:34:38
a dent you can uh who is this who is this little search hey look how happy you are
01:34:46
who's the best dad where's your dad all right we'll see you all next time on the all-in podcast bye bye
01:34:54
we'll let your winners ride rain man david and they've just gone crazy with it [Music]
01:35:25
we should all just get a room and just have one big huge orgy because they're all just
01:35:29
it's like this like sexual tension that they just need to release [Music] your feet we need to get mercury
01:35:43
[Music]