00:00:00
Brian Johnson, thanks for being here. >> Yeah, it's good to see you. >> How are you feeling? Maybe just share
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with us what you did a few days ago. And >> yeah, I did um a I did five MOD DMT,
00:00:09
which is the most powerful psychedelic on the planet. Uh it's somewhere between
00:00:14
five and 10 times more powerful than DMT. And so, yeah, I it's so it's been
00:00:20
48 hours. I'm still learning how to talk about it. >> You know what? Many of the biggest tech
00:00:30
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and use code all-in for up to $350 off your pod purchase today. >> Before we get into your experience, why
00:00:56
did you choose to do it? >> Two things. is one mostly as a longevity experiment. So when when we when I
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started this project 5 years ago, the the approach we had was go through all the scientific evidence ever published
00:01:08
on health and longevity. Try to find the interventions that have the best evidence for effect size and we just
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went down the list from top performing on down. So, of course, you start with uh exercise, nutrition, uh you know, um
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sleep, and you work your way down to things like hyperbaric oxygen therapy and sauna, and then rapamy, metformin.
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And so, we never actually had on our radar psychedelics. They were always either an ancient medicine, you know,
00:01:35
being used in in ritualistic practices or being pointed at things like depression and anxiety in in certain
00:01:41
trials, but it was never understood as a rejuvenation protocol, something that was for anti-aging. And so we found a
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pre-clinical evidence in mice on psilocybin. We thought that's interesting. Uh and so we did the
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world's most studied the most uh quantified experiment doing psilocybin three doses at 25 milligrams uh of
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psilocybin >> which are pretty high doses. >> It's yeah it's a clinical uh dose at
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very very close to a hero dose and we found that we think it's a a longevity
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therapy. >> Let's get to that data in a minute. But then you decided to try 5me this
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weekend. >> Yes. Walk me through the experience because you televised the whole thing.
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It was live streamed. You looked amazingly calm going into it and going through the process. Walk us through
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your experience. >> Yeah, I think uh those who have done 5me would probably relate with me that it
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feels like an impossible task to explain what it's like. So that caveat said,
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I'll I'll give it a go. I'm stunned. absolutely floored, speechless. You you
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basically experience raw consciousness and raw intelligence. It's this. So whatever
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when I say these words, take these words that I committed to you, take that idea,
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multiply it by a thousand, and then move out infinite depth, infinite width, width and then dimensions. And like that
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gives you kind of like a rough map of like the size and space that you deal with. And uh it was
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incredibly hard because you you get blasted into this space that is so foreign you don't even know what's
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happening. >> It happens very quickly >> like you you inhale it. I did uh 9
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milligrams of intramuscular and then seven uh 18 of of vaporized and it hits you within 10 seconds. You're just ab
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you're out. And so um but what happens is you you get in that space and then
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>> visual changes every >> very very little visual uh like you see on DMT it's a very visual you'll meet
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the you know like the elves or whatever else this is not a visual experience but
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you you get in this world and you lock in to basically you either panic because you feel like the gates of
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hell are going to open that the the stream of Yeah. >> Existence is just going to just tear you
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to shreds. It's going to shard you. And if you give up, >> like break your brain.
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>> Yeah. You feel like it's going to like threaten your sanity. Like is it going
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to chop you up into little pieces? And so in that moment, you have to say, do I try to wrestle this and I I need to just
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like wait it out until it's over or you just relent and you say yes. And you
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have to in that moment, you have to say yes so thoroughly. You have to release all attachment, all preconditions, all
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want, all desire. You have to release self, ego, control. You just have to just relent entirely. And then when you
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do that, it opened up this unimaginable bliss and euphoria. And I I again this like a V1 of trying to explain this, but
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if I list out the the most dynamic experiences I've had of a human, you know, uh like certain
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accomplishments or getting married or having a child or overcoming a difficulty or you know, state your list
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of things. This is without question the most dynamic experience I've ever experienced as a human. Does the
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internal chatter, the internal monologue of the ego turn off? >> Does. >> So you can't hear yourself speaking, how
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do you rationalize what's going on if you don't have a dialogue going on?
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>> It's this visceral feeling like you're you're hyper aware of what's happening.
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It's not like you you block out in the first like when you take a very high dose, you don't really know what's
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happening the first few minutes, but then you kind of come to and you're hyper aware of everything. It's not
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visual, but it's this um you're in the depths of [snorts] existence like this.
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>> It's just the most majestic >> experience achievable by a by by intelligent life.
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I just can't imagine anything more miraculous. You've studied the biology, the
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biochemistry. What goes on in the brain as this molecule hits your neurons? >> Yeah. I mean like it um I mean one it
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completely dissolves your default mode network. >> Describe what that is. >> So like um it's this is the engine that
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constructs self and ego. And so as you ruminate, you know, like you're going
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through >> thinking through your day, what's next? How am I feeling? Yeah.
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>> What should I be doing right now? Constant conversation. >> Do I feel bad about myself? Do I feel,
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you know, like I am I shy? Am I like do I feel bad about whatever? Like you're
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doing this rumination stuff. Uh kids don't have this rumination loop. Their default mode network is is quiet. And as
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you age, you basically build up this default mode network into more stiffer patterns. And so as you age, your
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experience of reality becomes increasingly narrow. You have these big ruts that form. And so you can just see
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people in their patterns like how open a child is to say like very random things.
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And as adults, you're just very, you shut in. Like when I did psilocybin, one of the reasons why we did it is
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because it does have this effect where it dampens the default mode network. And we could pick this up with kernel the
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brain interface. You can see how the default mode network weakens. Like so basically like think of the brain like a
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globe with airports scattered about >> and you have certain traffic patterns
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like New York to London. You have a certain number of flights every day. That's like a very strong connection.
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But New York to um you know some small town in Arkansas has a very uh low traffic map. And so when you do
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something like psilocybin it basically takes the airports picks them up and then repositions around the world. So
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it's just all scrambled so that the traffic patterns aren't the same and
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then over time >> the neurons don't physically move but the activity shifts around.
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>> Exactly. >> Right. the neurons are a little bit more random >> than they normally would be which
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arguably drives neuroplasticity causes those neurons to reach out for new connections and when new connections are
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made new behaviors new ways of thinking emerge coming out of these therapeutics.
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Is that a fair way to describe it? >> Exactly right. So you look at my brain
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on psilocybin from kernel you see my patterns before like the New York London connection you see my brain afterwards
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and it's exactly what you said new patterns are emergent the old ones have have quieted down. It's like a new map
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of connectivity. And so we saw that happen and that does generate a lot of neuroplasticity.
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>> And obviously this neuroplasticity rewiring these connections in the brain
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is what allows trauma victims or folks that have a certain wiring that they keep repeating in their brain which
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causes the trauma and the anxiety in their lives to get rewired and then that trauma and that anxiety feels like it
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dissolves or melts away. Is that a fair? >> Exactly right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And so this is this has been
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documented in psilocybin. It's kind of well understood. How did you connect that psilocybin data to an effort in
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longevity or was this just like a random idea? Let's try it out. >> Yeah, it was. So we we we saw some mouse
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data that it had these effects. It also showed reduced inflammation. Uh so we said like this is interesting because
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most longevity therapies do something with inflammation, right? Like inflammation is the killer. So if you
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can lower inflammation, a very good sign. uh if you can do something that makes the brain more youthful and takes
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down those those big ruts that's use also useful. What we found at psilocybin
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though is it had we found a first in human observation it had this this uh metabolic reset in the brain where my
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blood glucose before this was in the top 99.5 percentile of all the population. >> Okay. after it went to the top 99.9
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percentile like to move my blood glucose from that level is very very hard and but it basically like uh not like
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metformin where you're doing something on blood glucose this just had a reset
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across the body also changed my microbiome uh so we saw a full-on effect so then we said okay if that had that
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consequence 5 MO may have some similar characteristics and so >> no one had done this in 5 MO before
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>> exactly so there's like there's potent there's there's some animal evidence um
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but it's the the similar dynamics of like can you take the brain and can you
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basically like smooth out the barnacles that accumulate and 5 MODMT compared to psilocybin like just absolutely like
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blasted clean my default mode network. It felt like psilocybin dampens it like it softens it but this thing just
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annihilated my default >> turned it off completely. Yeah, it just it just doesn't run the same way. And
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like for an example like uh this morning I woke up uh catching myself laughing in
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a dream. I have not laughed in a dream. I I don't even know when I've ever
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laughed in a dream but that is after I woke up I was like that's really weird.
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Like I don't remember laughing. I looked it up and like that is a characteristic
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of a child. >> Right. >> And so you are restored to this childlike state. And I mean the past
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couple days uh I have felt childlike. You know, yesterday morning I felt that, you know, that emergent excitement, the
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bubbling of like today is so exciting. I'm going to do new things. I'm going to
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have new experiences. Um that you're just excited about all things. I haven't
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felt that. I don't even know when, you know, for so many years. So like it really was um profound on every layer.
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And I see I'm stumbling through this cuz I don't even know how to talk about it
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yet. >> During the day, you're hanging out, you're walking around. Is your brain
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having the same normal chatter that it did before or do you think that there's
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a persistent change in that default mode network? >> Yeah, definitely a change. Like with I I
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was with my partner Kate yesterday and we um I did something that made her upset. And so like in that
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situation, you know, like when when couples are in that moment, you you have like this negotiation. How do I sort
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this? And it all just became so clear to me like when children have a fight, you
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have it out and it's just like done. >> Yeah. >> And you move on. But then adults take
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that and they like package it up and like they want to weaponize it. Be like I got something on you,
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>> right? I'm like move it. I'm going to move the chest pieces and like try to
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leverage this and and um >> or they store it up like a snake in one of those things that pops out all the
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snakes later, you [laughter] know? It's like package it all up. >> Exactly. And so like we had this and I I
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just felt um absolutely like no need to escalate or to defend or to like it was just easy
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>> and um it was a breakthrough in our relationship where I was able to communicate with her in a way. And so
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it's like h laughing in my sleep. It's how I deal with my partner when I walk
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around. I just feel so much I uh I feel so much more funny, you know, like my ability to make quips
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>> that are just immediate. Uh you know, like so yeah, I just feel renewed as a
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person in a way that I just really didn't imagine. >> Have you tried hallucinogenics before
00:13:00
you started your longevity path a couple of years ago? >> Yeah. >> And did you do that recreationally or
00:13:06
therapeutically? It was mostly therapeutic in that I I had sold my company branch of mo. I got a divorce. I
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left the Mormon church and I was trying to remap like what is life? Who am I? What do I do? So I was in that
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rebuilding stage where I just dabbled of like you know I did I did ketamine at Colonel. So one of our first studies at
00:13:25
Colonel is we said ketamine was a up and cominging therapy for depression and we
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posed the question what happens when you do ketamine. And so we did the world's
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most extensive measurement of ketamine with kernel before, during, and after. And so that was interesting like and it
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has some kind of, you know, transient effect, but that's like a a a like a little league relative to 5 MO.
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>> And so as you've gone through this, maybe share a little bit of the MRI data
00:13:51
that you're gathering and the other data mapping neurological effects. >> Yeah.
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>> And tell us a little bit about what you've learned >> so far. Nothing. uh I have my subjective
00:14:00
experience to share but we we have a structural brain MRI we have a functional brain MRI we did kernel which
00:14:06
is like an optical interface and then I did realtime EEG capture >> and we should just talk about I think
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it's important structural you can see the the physical brain functional you can see the activity in
00:14:18
the brain >> so neurons firing and neurons that are not firing right >> and then electrical actions that are
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measured by an electrical device >> so we basically I wanted cuz the brain
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is very so we've had a lot of success rejuvenating my heart and my lungs and
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muscle and body fat but rejuvenating the brain is very hard >> right >> and so we this is why this is so such a
00:14:41
promising therapy so we wanted to look at the brain uh through every modality possible we wanted to look at blood flow
00:14:47
structural molecular you know the wave pattern form so we it's a it's a very
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high fidelity quantification and so we'll see what the data comes out um I'm
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very excited yeah >> you did this on psilocybin as well, right? You map the brain over time. What
00:15:00
did you learn there? >> Dramatic uh restoration of youthful brain patterns.
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>> Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. >> And what comes after 5me [laughter]
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I mean how far do you take this? >> Yeah. Honestly, um I am so encouraged by psychedelics. I
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you know like in in the community where I hang out, psychedelics have always been understood as you know it's like a
00:15:29
retreat or it's like a a ritual or you go to like do various explorations but
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never in the world of longevity. It's never been understood as that thing. And
00:15:39
now after seeing the data now I um and of course you have to be very careful when talking about psychedelics
00:15:47
because they're extremely powerful. It's not like go out and do them everybody
00:15:50
right. It's like it needs to be done properly with a licensed professional. It needs to be done carefully. The
00:15:55
person needs to be in the right state. Like it is not to be taken lightly. But I am uh more interested than ever in
00:16:02
psychedelic compounds. They're just uniquely powerful. >> There's some arguments to be made that
00:16:07
psychedelics can induce permanent psychosis. >> Yeah. >> Cause functional changes and drive some
00:16:14
people that might be predisposed into schizophrenic states. >> That's right. How did you get over those
00:16:19
risks? Because for a lot of people that would turn them off to trying psychedelics and it's not a nonzero
00:16:26
percentage of people that suffer these consequences. >> Yep. I agree. And and also people who
00:16:30
have really bad trips that leave them star scarred. So it's it really is. And
00:16:34
I think in in part of it is um what could be contributing to this is uh people who for example who have tried uh
00:16:41
magic mushrooms. You know it's in a social situation. Someone's got a bag. you pull out some
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mushrooms, it's like yeah, like weighs blank and they pop it in, but they have
00:16:51
no idea what kind of mushroom strain they're eating. They don't know what the
00:16:53
dose of psilocybin is. Uh, so it's like unquantified, unsupervised, wrong sentence setting. And so much of it I
00:17:00
think you can the risk persists, but I don't think we we've approached psychedelics with the appropriate rigor
00:17:06
that we should to make it safe. And so it's not to say that we can solve for
00:17:09
the safety issues for all people. some people just may not be the appropriate candidate for it. But I think if we do
00:17:15
create a safety structure around it, they could deliver the benefits people want uh without, you know, with less of
00:17:22
the risk. But definitely I agree with you like it's again it it deserves all
00:17:25
the caution in the world. Do you think it's like neurogenic, neuroplasticity,
00:17:31
trauma resolution? And I mean what is the way that this is going to be allowed to become call it a medical therapeutic
00:17:38
that can be more broadly triled and then eventually figure out how to bring it to
00:17:42
people without it being carrying all the risks and burdens that it does today. >> I mean if I just subjectively compare my
00:17:49
experience with 5 MO to you having a better diet and exercising every day and uh sleeping well and doing the sauna and
00:17:57
doing hyper oxygen therapy. this was more efficacious than all of them in terms of the reset of me as a
00:18:07
human. It it just is incomparable. And I guess I'm I'm really left pondering like
00:18:13
for this molecule to have such a gigantic impact now like how long will it last? What's the decay curve like?
00:18:19
You know, will I find I I become the former Brian within 30 days, 60 days? Do I have to repeat this again? I don't
00:18:25
know. But it really is, you know, you when you sleep well, you feel great. When you exercise, great. But like
00:18:31
nothing like what 5 MO did in terms of of like the reset of me as a human. >> So let's just talk about the
00:18:36
consequences outside of the physiological which is life. >> Yeah. >> There are lots of stories and friends
00:18:44
that I have that and people that I know >> that have tried a heavy psychedelic like
00:18:49
an Iawaska or something. >> They were the CEO of a company and then they quit their company and they go off
00:18:54
to the jungle, leave their family, divorce their their partner. um make such dramatic life changes
00:19:01
because their perspective has been shifted so much >> that they re-evaluate what matters in
00:19:07
life to such a degree that they give up a lot of the things that mattered before.
00:19:11
>> Yeah. >> In the wake of that, there are people that feel they're a victim of that
00:19:18
behavioral shift, the investors in the company, the employees, the family members, etc. Yeah.
00:19:24
>> Can you just talk a little bit about those broad risks because we've seen it
00:19:27
and I don't know if you've seen the same but friends that have kind of like said
00:19:32
I have this new perspective I'm giving up my life. >> I've seen the same thing and I um one
00:19:36
investor told me that he even put it in the deal docks that you know if we invest you're not going to do these
00:19:43
psychedelics because they wanted to minimize the the risk profile. It's a thing
00:19:47
>> in your deal in an investment in you. No, I just spoke because I've been doing
00:19:50
this uh people bring this up as a topic of conversation, right? >> And so they say like, I see you're doing
00:19:56
this for longevity, but you know, like I've seen so many examples where people
00:20:01
put money in, then you lose the founder. Like they're off, everyone's high and
00:20:06
dry. And so they were telling me that they put into Dill Docs that they can't
00:20:11
do this for the duration of the company. And so it is a thing. And you know, I I
00:20:16
have nothing to say about it other than I know it happens. Um, also I would say that most people in the tech world that
00:20:24
I'm familiar with, again, they've done this in retreat centers or in social
00:20:29
environments. It's not quantified. It's not set and setting. It's so it's a
00:20:33
different thing. But I will say like, you know, I I guess me as a person, what I'm trying to focus on, I came back even
00:20:41
more motivated to do what I'm doing now. Uh I don't have a desire to go off in
00:20:46
the woods, you know, and like and live that kind of life. It it it emboldened me to work on these things, but no
00:20:52
question about it. You you do have a dramatic shift in perspective, and it's
00:20:56
it's very hard to get. >> It begs a very important philosophical question.
00:21:01
>> Who am I? >> Yes. >> If I'm defined by my experiences, it roughly equates to my neurons are
00:21:11
wired in a way. >> Yes. That's a consequence of my experiences. And if I go in and take a
00:21:16
drug and in a few hours rewire all my neurons, am I the same person? >> What makes Brian Brian? You can maybe
00:21:23
recall some memories of Brian >> prior to taking the psychedelic, >> but Brian as a person has been rewired.
00:21:32
>> Are you a different person now? And what does that say about are we ever a
00:21:35
persistent person? >> Right. >> Yeah, your question is spot on. probably
00:21:40
the most dramatic reconstruction of your 60 plus trillion cells than anything you
00:21:47
can do in life. Yeah. Like maybe like a near-death experience, you know, would would maybe uh be close, but it's a
00:21:53
dramatic rewiring of you as a as a human. >> Your values can change, too. >> That's right.
00:21:57
>> And you could judge the values pre and post, right? You could judge values
00:22:02
ascribed to you by a religion >> or perhaps values ascribed to you by responsibility to family members,
00:22:08
children, spouses, partners, what have you. >> You abandon them after you go through
00:22:14
this change. So your values have changed. Is it right or wrong? >> That's right.
00:22:16
>> I think is another important question that comes out of all this. >> I agree. And like you you now like you
00:22:20
now think about that that's been through the frame where the world changes at a
00:22:25
certain speed. Now you take the world where it's changing faster. So we now know that it's hard to predict what's
00:22:31
going to happen two weeks from now or a month, right? Like things are changing very quickly. And so now you come up
00:22:36
with this practical question. Can humans change fast enough in the world where AI
00:22:44
is the dominant engine of innovation? And so in that case, like you may want psychedelics as your ally to say, as a
00:22:52
human, I'm struggling to like move with the change. >> Yeah. And so there there's potentially
00:22:56
where it it flips from a liability to an asset where like now I do want that restructure changing even though you
00:23:03
have some tail risk of like maybe my priorities will shift. >> I think you have profound what I would
00:23:08
call psychoflexibility and I think most people don't. They have either a disinterest in changing who
00:23:15
they are overnight >> or they're fearful of the the ramifications or the experience
00:23:21
>> and that they wouldn't go through it. How far would you take it? Would you
00:23:24
wire yourself up to a neural link or neural enhancement device that would give you the ability to have information
00:23:30
on demand and maybe change your personality and capacity as a human through an implant? Would you consider
00:23:36
doing something like that? You would would you consider a transgenic system where you basically take a plasmid which
00:23:43
would then express a set of proteins in your body and change uh gene expression profiles and cells in your body and
00:23:48
basically can rewire you as a different person? >> Yes. >> Yes. Is there a limit to what you would
00:23:53
try? Oh, >> interesting. Where do you think that comes from? >> I think I I find it to be the most
00:23:58
exciting configuration of life. Uh the ability to play on the frontier, uh novelty and expedition and challenge.
00:24:08
That's really my >> Did you always have it or are you responding to childhood suppression of
00:24:14
those? >> It's probably it's probably an overcompensation of of trauma response
00:24:18
like most things are. And so, you know, as a child, I lived in a very structured
00:24:22
religious environment where things were cemented like here's the story, here's
00:24:26
the plan, here's what you do and what you don't do. >> Yeah. >> And so, yeah, maybe it's probably just
00:24:31
I'm now a flip in the opposite. >> And so, I mean, that's like probably
00:24:35
true that I really uh I don't trust my internal generation of reality. You know, I know I'm always making things
00:24:41
up. I've got 188 chronicle biases like all humans do. So I'm just I'm generally
00:24:46
suspicious of all things all time and I don't take myself very seriously. So I
00:24:51
just find the the frontier play space to be like right now I mean you know what you're doing in building a company is
00:24:56
like you just open up a a toolkit and say like what can I build and how do I modify and uh so I agree with you I do
00:25:03
have a a strong proclivity towards openness of play. >> Do you find that you've been challenged
00:25:08
in maintaining I would call it external responsibility as you explore and enhance yourself so much. Do you give up
00:25:15
the responsibility to others around you who maybe are dependent on you or or in need of you?
00:25:19
>> Yeah, I have three kids and so um I do think about them a lot and I you being a
00:25:26
father is a really important thing to me and it's an important part of my identity and so that has not changed. So
00:25:32
I've never uh vacasillated on that or changed my disposition towards that. For
00:25:36
those around me, I guess fortunately I have a a social group that just says go and play. There's there's really no one
00:25:44
in my life >> that tries to claw me back. There's no Velcro. >> It's just all encouraging. And so that I
00:25:51
guess I feel very fortunate that everyone around me and they're willing to take the risks. I mean, this is when
00:25:55
I sat down for 5 MO. I mean, my my partner Kate like she's got a ton of risk. Like what if it goes poorly? What
00:26:01
if I change my perspectives? What if something bad happens? Well, one could make an argument that
00:26:06
taking that degree of risk where something could have gone wrong, >> the people around you are enabling
00:26:11
versus being supportive, right? >> That's right. That's right. >> I mean,
00:26:14
>> yeah, that's right. >> That's a consequence. But let's shift
00:26:17
topics to other uh modalities for longevity. >> Yeah. >> What else is on the horizon? So, you've
00:26:25
had this profound set of experiences with psychedelics. You've documented in
00:26:30
a very extraordinary and exquisite fashion all of the other things that you've been doing with interventions.
00:26:34
Are there other things that are on the horizon that you're either excited about
00:26:38
or that you're considering yourself? >> Yeah. I mean, two of the ones that we've
00:26:41
spoken about, cell therapy and gene therapy. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. They um they're all in the
00:26:45
pipeline. So, they're not ready yet. We've we've knocked out all the stuff
00:26:49
you can do today. Like, we've gone through it all, done it all. Um the nextG therapies are just not there yet.
00:26:55
So, we're looking at mitochondrial rejuvenation. I think that's incredible.
00:26:58
I think mitochondrial augmentation therapy and there was a paper I saw where in order to get the mitochondria
00:27:04
in the cell, they coded the mitochondria in effectively a red blood cell envelope
00:27:09
>> which made it more transportable into cells and less uh attack by the immune
00:27:13
system which is incredible. And I I'm a big big big believer in this this this
00:27:18
course of therapeut therapeutic modality that no one has even recognized. >> I agree. We have our first uh
00:27:23
mitochondrial therapy lined up. So >> how are you going to do it? you're
00:27:26
you're like 99.9%. You need someone who's like 48.7% [laughter] >> to try the mitochondrial
00:27:33
particularly like you know I think they tried it in Parkinson's patients Alzheimer's patients that's where you
00:27:38
could really see profound shifts in >> in certain metrics for you it's like
00:27:42
99.9 to what like >> yeah I have the mitochondria you know of a 48-year-old right so like what if I
00:27:49
>> what if I yes >> you could go to your siblings child because the mitochondria is passed
00:27:55
maternally because it's in the it's in the egg Yeah. >> So, it's the mother's mitochondria. So,
00:27:59
if you go down in the mother's line, >> if you have a sister who has a kid,
00:28:04
they're going to have very young mitochondria. You can take a little blood sample and then
00:28:08
>> grow their mitochondria extensively and use that as a biological match to
00:28:12
>> This is a a perfect extension. I've had a blood boy as a son. >> Yeah.
00:28:16
>> So, now I'm just going to go to the extended family and be like, "Guys, it's
00:28:19
a it's a family project." >> Yeah. Family project. Exactly. Yeah.
00:28:23
>> Well, that one's super interesting. We also have one we're doing. Um I I'm now
00:28:27
building >> Sorry. Are you going to do your own mitochondrial transplantation? You're
00:28:30
going to build a bioreactor or you using working with one of the third parties that are
00:28:33
>> Yeah. third company. Yeah. So I'll get I'll do a blood draw in the next week or
00:28:35
two. They'll spin up and then we'll do it. Yeah. I'll do it. >> Okay. Y
00:28:39
>> So you're going to get your mitochondria which have some you know the problem with mitochondria
00:28:44
as you know is mitochondrial DNA degradation over time right? It accelerates for certain people, but that
00:28:49
way if you go back to a young person, you have young >> mitochondria, but then you're going to
00:28:53
multiply yours out. >> Yes. >> And probably select a little bit or for
00:28:57
healthier ones. Yeah. Right. Okay. And then put it back in. >> It's very I mean exploratively like we
00:29:02
don't know. Uh we're one of the first. They're they're in phase two now.
00:29:04
>> Do you sprint? >> Yeah, I do. >> So you could probably score if you did
00:29:08
it intramuscular like mitochondrial therapy. You could sprint see your score. >> That's a great idea.
00:29:12
>> Yeah, thank you. Yeah. Yeah, >> that would be a great way to measure it
00:29:15
from a rather than just a basic biomarker perspective. Be really interesting to see.
00:29:20
>> Yeah, sprinting is one of the most underappreciated longevity therapies.
00:29:23
>> Yeah, I I don't do it. >> Oh man, >> I've got the um the age of a 74y old uh
00:29:29
roughly [laughter] >> I am uh I'm definitely not keeping track with you. Would you consider or have you
00:29:37
looked at any plasmids where you take a gene as DNA put in your body and then that gene makes a protein in your body
00:29:43
that that does something >> like the one we were looking at in the foxil 3 expression. Yeah, exactly. So
00:29:47
the messenal stem cells you packaged up with the fox3 delivery um you know that showed that over 50% of tissues getting
00:29:53
that rejuvenation. >> It's unbelievable. >> Un it's like the best demonstration in
00:29:57
the entire world. >> It's perfect for tissue regeneration like as a particular application set
00:30:01
tissue regeneration using that sort of system >> seems like a no-brainer. It's like,
00:30:05
yeah, >> it's safe, right? It's like, so yes, I I uh reached out to that Chinese
00:30:09
professor. I'm really interested in seeing it replicating. I would love >> You reached out to the Chinese
00:30:13
professor? >> Yeah, >> that's awesome. [laughter] We sent that paper back. Yeah. Yeah,
00:30:18
that's awesome. So, >> can you respond? >> Uh, yeah. >> Awesome.
00:30:21
>> Yeah. >> Good. >> Uh, so we I'd love to do that. Um, I'd
00:30:24
love to actually build it ourselves, but that's like a two-year project. So, um,
00:30:29
>> AI can help make it faster. >> That's true. Actually, that's true. AI
00:30:32
as a project manager for these sorts of programs is >> you know that's true. We we spoke about
00:30:36
this six months ago. Yeah. And >> things are so different. >> So different now six months later in
00:30:40
terms of stand that up. Um that one's cool. So I think that's a good good
00:30:43
option. Then also I'm doing uh Brian Johnson organoids. So uh we took my IPS
00:30:47
IPSC's >> we now have >> induced pluropotent stem cells. So you took your cells turn them into stem
00:30:52
cells. Yep. Yeah. >> So now we're doing indish. So now we have like a Brian Johnson heart, liver,
00:30:57
lungs, and now we're gonna try molecules on me in >> So you've appi So let me just walk the
00:31:02
audience through this. So you take cells off of your skin or something blood and
00:31:05
then you put these Yamanaka factor proteins on those cells causes those cells to become stem cells which means
00:31:11
they can then turn into any other cell and then you put other proteins on them to turn them into a heart cell
00:31:15
>> or a eye cell or or what have you. And now you've got a store of these tissue
00:31:21
specific Brian Johnson cells. Yes. That you then use for >> like you can say okay uh what if you
00:31:27
give Brian Johnson blank you know drug. What is what happens? Is it good? Is it bad? What are the side effects? What
00:31:33
>> in the P3 dish? You put the drug in there see what happens. >> Yeah. So like you can simulate all these
00:31:37
experiments. So now you you get the advantage of time of acceleration of like what to take, why, what dose.
00:31:43
That's awesome. >> What comaterial things to consider. And so we we have the organoids stood up. We
00:31:48
haven't done our first takes yet. So that's interesting because now I have to
00:31:50
do this old school methodology like put it in my body, >> wait to see what happens. Is it good? Is
00:31:56
it bad? What, you know, how does it affect everything else? >> Yeah, totally.
00:31:59
>> That's a good one. But I mean, I don't know. We'll see. It's cool in concept. I
00:32:03
mean, TBD if it actually works. So, we'll see. >> Have you tracked any of the alternatives
00:32:07
to Yamanaka factors, the factor discovery work that's going on, and do you think there's anything worth testing
00:32:12
at this stage? >> Yeah, I'm an investor in New Limit. So, I've talked to them about where they're
00:32:17
at and I mean >> Blake and Brian's company, >> they've done uh I mean they've made
00:32:21
remarkable progress. They they figured out how to computationally solve the discovery process.
00:32:27
>> Yeah. >> And so they um they're much faster than they initially thought. And so that's
00:32:31
very encouraging. >> You know, the big challenge with Yamanaka factors is always dosing. If
00:32:35
you overdose a cell, a one cell, that cell can become a cancer cell and take off as a tumor. Yeah. So the sensitivity
00:32:42
that you need to have to get the right number of the factors which is a protein into the cell needs to be
00:32:48
>> perfectly tuned. >> So I have a theory that this will end up being solved by cellular switches
00:32:54
>> that will end up putting machinery into the cells that can turn on or off the
00:32:59
protein synthesis at the right dosing >> based on the measurement of gene expression in the cell. That's my theory
00:33:05
on where this will end. >> That makes a lot of sense. Any other control mechanism will be inadequate.
00:33:09
>> That's right. the feedback loop just >> all you need is one error and you're
00:33:12
you're you're in trouble. But it is it is the most profound I think technology
00:33:15
that humanity is dealing with today besides AI. We're not quite there with fusion which I would argue is probably a
00:33:20
distant third but it is very powerful what's possible >> and in the future like I think we'll
00:33:25
look back and we'll see GLP1s as the first big drop. >> Yeah. like what I can just inject myself
00:33:30
and like it solves hunger and you know and then the second will probably be something like new limit or one of these
00:33:35
fox one of these plasma based fox 3 therapies where >> it will show real life like dramatic
00:33:41
changes totally >> and then humanity will shift as like uh longevity being a vision of sci-fi you
00:33:49
know rich people pursuit to like something that is truly I mean go back to like the conversation on on the
00:33:54
temptation towards socialism right like if if you can feel robust in your ability to pursue life and be healthy
00:34:02
and vibrant and uh in control. I think these things could have dramatic changes in society, not just in health, but like
00:34:09
>> well any form of abundance, whether it's abundance in food, in energy, in
00:34:13
housing, in mobility, in lifespan, the more abundance people get, the happier they are. And the more you're improving
00:34:19
abundance in the world, the the better we are going to live as a group of people together on planet Earth, the
00:34:26
happier we will all be with each other. >> I think like honestly like a lot of the
00:34:29
the >> external conflict only comes from internal unhappiness >> 100%. Yeah. So, if you look at the
00:34:33
general malaise of like American society, like no wonder uh things are, right? Like you've got
00:34:40
metab 84% of people have metabolic disorder. Over 40% of people are obese. Like we're just in really poor health.
00:34:46
Nobody's sleeping. Everyone's on their phone. Like we have mental health
00:34:48
issues. Like no wonder you have the proclivity towards these kinds of outcomes. Like so if you could get the
00:34:54
health in check, it changes the psychological decision of you, your community, your country. Like you have
00:34:59
much more of a can do attitude. like I can take on the world and I can do hard things, but when you're not feeling
00:35:04
well, like it's just everything is just so much harder. >> Yeah. 100%. And so in light of all of
00:35:09
these new therapeutic modalities and these new opportunities that seem to be biologically proven and have these
00:35:14
profound effects, why continue to tinker with psychedelics? Like are they as profound or are they a compliment or
00:35:20
like how do you think about fitting all of this portfolio of things that you're
00:35:23
looking at together? >> Yeah, I mean I guess the question is um I forget on the Fox 3 study. I don't
00:35:28
know if they saw brain rejuvenation. Didn't see that. Yeah. >> I did not see that. And I don't
00:35:32
>> I don't remember. I mean, it is a very complicated organ. >> Yeah. Exactly. And
00:35:36
>> it's insane. You know, you can grow muscle tissue back and you can grow skin tissue back
00:35:42
and it's kind of like, okay, I grew a little ex like if you grow the the neurons back maybe in the wrong way.
00:35:48
Like we don't know. >> Yeah. >> Because it's never been done before. So
00:35:52
understanding the consequence of neuro regeneration is like >> so I wonder like if the role it might
00:35:58
play like you know maybe psilocybin and 5 MO won't be um you know meaningful for like basic
00:36:07
functions of the body but maybe it's the uh the outperformer in youthfulness of
00:36:15
your of your disposition towards reality. Like one thing I'm apprehensive about is you I'm 48 and so
00:36:22
>> as you start climbing to your 50s 60s you do >> really narrow like your ambition goes
00:36:28
from I can do anything to start you know narrowing down further and further and I
00:36:33
worry about using losing a youthful disposition of a can do attitude of anything is possible totally
00:36:40
>> and maybe that's the role of psychedelics is you just get a wash of
00:36:44
like the snapback of like I can and I can bounce Yeah, >> that definitely been the case for me.
00:36:50
So, I think they do probably play a really important role of like they're probably a set of things that for
00:36:55
certain people that will um basically like I mean I felt like it was like 30 40 years of
00:37:06
psychological rejuvenation, you know, it's like to transport me back to a childlike state. Yeah.
00:37:10
>> That is insane. I don't get that from the sauna or from eating well or from
00:37:14
sleeping well. Like I'm still >> right. So, just unique. >> Yeah. Amazing. Well, listen. I'm going
00:37:20
to go drink alcohol and eat carbs and stay out late. I don't know. What are you going to do?
00:37:25
>> I'm gonna go to bed on time. Yeah. Do my wind down routine. >> Yeah. You do you. But you as well. Enjoy
00:37:31
[laughter] it. >> I appreciate it. This has been great. Brian Johnson, thank you. Thanks. Yeah,
00:37:34
that was awesome. >> That was great. I'm going [music] all in.