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that was perfect [ __ ] rocked it bro right is [Music] great hey everybody Welcome to Austin welcome
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everybody that's my friend Dave Fred Bert thanks for having me how you doing brother welcome to Texas it's a little
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light we're missing couple friends here tonight we have some new friends we got some awesome friends and we wanted to do
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something around this sort of New Media Creator economy it's something you know we're experiencing with the podcast and
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um that's obviously having a big impact on society right A lot of people say this was the podcast
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election the big media companies from journalism Fox News CNN to the big platforms Netflix Amazon Hulu
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to Disney and others are kind of rearranging their pawns on the chess board based on and responding to what's
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going on and so we thought it'd be really interesting to hear about some of the people who we think are probably the
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smartest in the Creator economy in terms of building a business and how you maneuver and how you play and how you
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grow as part of that conversation today you um didn't you had a Twitter account when we started all in Twitter but you
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literally had never tweeted and now you've become the Sultan of science you're very famous any Sultan of
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science fans out there awesome awesome did anybody see him win celebrity jeffardy you want I
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mean we're so proud of our bestie um yeah you have no idea how anxious ashamed hand ringing he was for 6 weeks
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he knew he won he wouldn't tell us the outcome cuz he knew that moth would gamble it and there would be like a
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whole controversy he'd figure out a way to make you know a bet on it actually someone doesn't know how to keep their
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mouth shut but yes yeah yeah that's right I keep talking to chouth about that um and then he wins and he wins but he's
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so upset at himself because he didn't win enough I'm going to thank our sponsors I mean this is what happens on
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an average show I say about 17 inappropriate things he goes strike cut strike cut and we have to have a grand
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negotiation after the episode where we horse trade the inappropriate things chth and I say and what he's going to
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allow I don't mind when chth says inappropriate things because it usually doesn't involve other people it's you
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where you kind of cross the line a little bit but you know that's why they tune in I have to save you from you J
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but what has it been like in terms of because we're going to talk about this here A lot of people now are taking the
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Playbook of creating audience and then building companies and you were were doing the production board you're
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building a bunch of different companies ohal became very successful and you said
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hey wait I got to go all in on this so to speak but you're going into it with a certain amount of audience a certain
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amount of notoriety and the ability let's face it a lot of people in business know you from the podcast now
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so what's it like been being a CEO now and having the Pod as like a platform that's actually a great question because
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for me I'm like not doing this podcast to like build a media thing I just thought it' be interesting we started
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doing it during Co and I just kind of kept doing it I don't know why I kept doing it to be honest um tried to quit I
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tried to quit like every week I wanted to quit and I oh my God still con had so much tension the first two years and now
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until we got up to sign an LLC agreement now it's all smooth sailing the votes are What mattered it was a big well
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actually but I think it's like a real important Evolution you know we had this thing going ad hoc and I was trying to
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keep it together and you know the one thing I I learned in media from in gadget I asked Peter Roos who I had
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stolen from Gizmo Nick Denton's um company to come to engag they said tell me the secret of why giz Moto Gawker and
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now engaged are doing so well and he said um oh the secret to blogging is very simple show up every day it's
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actually a great point and then yeah I mean Jason did keep keep us showing up and then it became a thing and then it's
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like okay we should probably do something legit to make this into a business or make it into something
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structural that stays alive so we did but to answer your question I go to meet with Farmers a lot and business
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Executives in the agriculture industry and I can't tell you how often I run into someone who's like I watch your
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podcast I'm a fan that is like Farmer Joe Farmer like the other day I was in a meeting um I won't reveal too much but
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like look I mean you guys won't have any idea but like some big farmer company big company that does farming who you
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would have never heard of no one in this room has ever heard of and then I'm in the hallway after we do this big pitch
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and the guy pulls me aside he's like gives me a fist Pub he's like love the Pod I'm like it is weird it is weird and
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then I'm like in in like another state at a meeting and the COO comes out he's like dude I'm a big fan of the Pod and
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so it helps with getting uh building trust it you've earned a reputation and so then when I go into meetings people
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know me because of this pod right and that reduces friction I don't have to go sell myself in a meeting right I'm
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already sold and it makes business easier and so for me the Pod isn't about making money on the Pod as much as it is
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like helping me in my everyday work which is where I spend pretty much all my time except for a couple hours a week
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here to to contextualize that in the conversation we're going to have today you create an audience with your content
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what do you do with that audience do you what are you doing this for you can sell
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ads and make money against that audience you can get sponsors that you speak to you know quality products that you
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endorse and you can make more money and you can either get paid cash or get some
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Equity you can build your own product and actually own it and then own all the equity and participate meaning F in the
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upside as you sell your audience your product or in other cases You're Building credibility You're Building um
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which is what a lot of venture capitalist did after our show I think kind of became big they realize that
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they have this opportunity to build credibility with entrepreneurs so when an entrepreneur shows up they're like oh
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I want to work with you because I've seen you on your podcast or investors show up I want to invest with you
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because I've seen your comments on your podcast so I think there's a lot of ways
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to think about the value of this but building an audience building credibility is really beneficial and you
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can it can work out lot of ways yeah and you you take it seriously um you know it's it's an investment in time for you
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uh today we've recorded a great episode uh we had our first comedian on Andrew Schultz um and that'll come out tomorrow
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he was hilarious um but you had an emotional moment today on the show we're talking about entrepreneurship and your
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journey and you know I I got to give you a lot of credit you know you're not like
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um a professional broadcast or whatever but you prepare and you put it all out there and I'm very proud of the work you
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done and how you've evolved as a broadcaster and as you know somebody on the Pod I'm very very proud of you know
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how much you've started to put out there of yourself and it's not easy to do because you're an introverted personal
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Pro person I mean pretty extroverted I'm like I mean yeah I mean on the MDM I'm ready go party I don't know what you're
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talking about you're the one who locked yourself up in the room after maybe maybe in the 9s when you were going to
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Raves and you had a little of the molly the MDMA you were different but I'm saying like now you're a little bit you
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know but I can day uh back in the day it's hilarious because he's such a perfectionist and every time the Pod
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comes out chath and I just wait 60 minutes after the Pod that sucked right producer Nick sucked right we should
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delete it cancel it there's the worst episode ever and then the Stats come out oh we broke another record oh it's
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number eight in the world oh okay look the the the reality is we can always do better I mean I have I am such an
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optimist as some of my friends who are here know like I just like a that was [ __ ] great it was a train wreck but
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for me it was a great train wreck um and you know just so you all know we couldn't do it without the audience and
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the love that you give us and is such an amazing motivation especially for me like I feed
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off the energy and when you all tell me your favorite episode or a great moment or you email us something where you know
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the thing I'm probably most proud of now is people are telling me they're having
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more difficult conversations with their friends while remaining friends and I think that's like one of the most
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beautiful things for me and my motivation on the Pod uh is really to to help give an example of how you can
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really have a hardcore discussion learn from each other appreciate each other and I hope that you all take that back
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to your poker games dinners families you know it's a very divided country right now there's a lot
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of important issues but friendship is worth investing in I just want to give you all that as
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like a note invest in your friends invest in those hard conversations your life will become so rich because of it
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have a couple of laughs don't take it all so seriously David yeah well before we before we bring our uh friends out
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Colin and Samir I'm going to just quickly we do those these we don't do sponsors on the show or ads on the show
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but when we do live incredibly infuriating me I want to read fine he'll be fine but um God we'd have a jet by
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now we want to pay for these we don't want to pay for Live Events out of pocket so we do have sponsor million
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left on the table you'll be fine uh find another Uber um so I did it's called Robin it's doing
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great so I want to say thanks to Gemini um Gemini just stepped up I think we just got them involved this week in
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send a FLOTUS that's a fancy word for somebody who draws blood for bottom is I learned that from function and then you
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take it NAD plus booster lots of studies very efficacious so thank you to tr nen again great
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product but those are the sponsors they help pay for this let's give it up to the sponsors One Time come on now very
00:11:12
good very good you want to get Colin me out yeah hey um let's bring out our first guest Colin Samir uh run the Colin
00:11:19
and Samir show and they are experts on building content business come on out Colin come on out
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Samir wel welcome you get you get the couch come sit on the couch here you see brother all right sit on the couch you
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guys are like real creators brand deal look at that brand deal thanks for being here I think we wanted to talk to you
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guys a little bit about the evolution in media I want to talk a little bit about
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the ration and the Creator economy where folks were putting out and tell me if I'm off on this but what felt like more
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kind of short form content it was almost like a new type of media that was different than traditional long form
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media Tik Tok type content but then what happened it's like folks started doing podcast and the content started to eat
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into other forms of media started to eat up journalism now and eat up news media
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and now the platforms are doing deals with the independent creators to put out long form content can you talk a little
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bit about the evolution of like short form long form sure I don't think you can underscore the importance of the
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YouTube app on TVs just the fact that there was now a free option and you have people who are in a setting where they
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want to actually sit and consume something for a longer period of time so as creators started putting out longer
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videos they started serving more ads making more money investing back in their channels in their shows and now
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they can actually produce things consistently they can make things better they can elevate it they can make them
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longer and that's what you're seeing now I mean like 50% of our watch time is on
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connected TV so the reach has grown because of YouTube on TV yes yeah yeah specifically YouTube now like when you
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buy a new TV I just when I when I moved to the ranch I got a new TV it's got YouTube on the remote and you just think
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about that as a concept and then I watch my daughter's behaviors and they are watching YouTube on the giant television
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not on their iPads it's it's a really a major difference and there's something about I'd like you to get into is the
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algorithm yeah versus subscribers sure because I grew up in a subscriber world where I thought about okay I'm going to
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get one more subscriber and then I'll have them or certain number them out of 10 I might keep five but they're going
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to watch every episode but then there's something that's gone on where people are creating content not with the intent
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of subscribers but with the intent of getting picked up by an algorithm and getting non-subscriber viewers this
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seems like there's some tension here maybe yeah I would say probably the biggest creators most successful
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creators largely have like a 70% viewership base that's not subscribed to them right and I yeah I would say that's
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pretty pretty common amongst our friend group and amongst the people that we we work with um and I think a lot of that
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has to do with the algorithm shift towards viewer satisfaction and and YouTube is a recommendations algorithm
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so first when we first started making YouTube videos if you could make a great thumbnail people would click that then
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inevitably got into clickbait where you would click into a video it was really short it wasn't representative of what
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was in the thumbnail so YouTube shifted their algorithm into what is called viewer satisfaction which is essentially
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gauged off of Click through rate did they click on the video and then average viation how long did they watch what
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percentage of this video did they watch then there's other engagement metrics they like the video do they comment on
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the video there's a lot of different ways to understand satisfaction um but essentially as creators every YouTube
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Creator what they're trying to do is go what video are you watching before you watch my
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video because interesting I want you to click on my video after you're done with
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that video or maybe in the middle of that video so most traffic on YouTube comes from suggest Ed okay so does that
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make sense yes you have the suggested along here so you're telling me people are creating videos with the intention
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of hijacking a popular video and trying to get that suggested so everybody's talking about I don't know pick the
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latest thing Trump did today so or who's on Joe Rogan or what Mr Beast did so now
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I try to get one of those slots that would be related to the latest Mr Beast video yeah I wouldn't say that timely
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because I think YouTube operates as a catalog right like some of our videos that are still picking up viewership
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today were made four years ago so the best way to do it is to build a catalog that acrs viewership over time so you're
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you're mainly looking at like subject matters with high total addressable markets on YouTube right like specific
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on YouTube so that is why when you know the world of Mr Beast really exploded on
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YouTube you have a lot of people talking about Mr Beast or reacting to Mr Beast or going there's 200 million people to
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tap into here who are probably watching a Mr Beast video uh this is fascinating because right now
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there are people doing after Allin videos where they talk and kind of drag us you know a bit and they're doing
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phenomenally well too oh they are maybe we'll get into that too drag us as well plenty to drag us I wouldn't call it
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phenomenally well there's like couple hundred views whatever could be the best in that categ actually you could own
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that c own that c do for Colin art and the artist that this is in their brands cuz you know free ber and I after a show
00:16:31
happens I talk about the moments sure and freeberg is you know got that other brain where he's like talking about the
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metrics and he's wondering about the wait time and the thumbs up and the thumbs down who liked it I'm like I
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don't give a [ __ ] about that there was a funny moment there was this moment people laughed there was this moment
00:16:45
that had emotional resonance so maybe you could talk a little bit about art versus Commerce ART versus algorithm ART
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versus algorithm yeah I mean it's it's difficult to create right now within a vacuum right I would say even opening up
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to Tik Tok the first couple of Tik toks you see are going to show you what works
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tot right so it's hard to create something now that I know what works now that I know what people will see if
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that's the objective audience growth but it's it's a true artist does not necessarily care if someone watch their
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work if one person loves my work that's all that matters like but a true artist doesn't always know actually what they
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could do to get people to watch their work and so we immediately know what would work and so you find for a lot of
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creators that on two ends of the spectrum they're either an artist or they're a distributor but to be an
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impactful Creator you kind of actually need to lean more towards distributor you need to be like that programming
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executive that's like okay well Spider-Man worked let's do it again let's do it again let's do it again
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let's do it again correct we we see that a lot if we change the title of the show
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or the order order of the topics we debate this a lot where it's now this might be the thing that I want to talk
00:17:54
about but no one wants science Corner up front because then the audience won't close no I mean we
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literally you guys think if we had science Corner up front more audience would click thank you but that's the
00:18:06
media business right more Trump It's like got enough Trump I mean this is I mean this is the tension we've had you
00:18:11
know and we're we're a um a a band not a solo performer right so you have four people with distinct perspectives and
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you know sax was always of the Mind what's the top story in the world uh I'm trying to think about well like what's
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the most interesting you know discussion freeberg like well what's the biggest breakthrough and what did we do last
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week and you kind of and then chat's like well what am I wearing and how does it look what am I wearing what am I
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wearing wearing how yeah um what did I what did I consume this week you know uh it's all everybody's got different
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things there but it's kind of disheartening to me to even know about all this I feel like it's ruining it to
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a certain extent for me yeah I think it look there's there's tension between uh creativity and strategy on these
00:19:01
platforms right because these are businesses and if you zoom out and go like how do media businesses work this
00:19:05
is how media businesses work sure but I I think what you have to think about is also choosing your platforms I think we
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struggle because we entered into the world of YouTube 15 years ago as creatives as you know guys who were
00:19:17
exploring wanting to get into Hollywood and saw this as a different route and where we've come to as now entrepreneurs
00:19:23
is we're in the media business and there's still tension where we we want to express our creativity we want to do
00:19:28
cool things that we think are cool but they're very anti- you know uh media but what I think what you're talking about
00:19:35
what really interesting is you just need to pick the right environment so we think about Platforms in the context of
00:19:40
like permission and Interruption so YouTube is an interruptive platform you have to stop someone in their tracks
00:19:45
with a thumbnail to get them to click in right but Spotify for example is a permission based platform like RSS feeds
00:19:52
are permission based email which we we have an email newsletter that's where we can have permission people have given us
00:19:57
permission to be there it's where you're seeing the rise of memberships too whether it's like patreon right like
00:20:02
people have said hey you know what I'll pay whatever you guys make I'm down and so I actually think you you just think
00:20:07
about those environments of you know top of funnel bottom funnel or you go permission Interruption it's it's an
00:20:12
interesting way to think about in this environment I can play around and my audience has given us permission
00:20:17
everyone who's in here we have the permission to kind of talk about whatever we want to talk about you're
00:20:22
not worried about the title yeah right yeah and that that's that's sort of where I'm getting to and the the other
00:20:29
Trend that free Berg and I have been talking about you know we have this natural tension we don't have ads on the
00:20:33
pod on my other pod it makes millions of dollars in ads this week in startups and
00:20:37
it that helps me have a team of nine people we like to throw good parties and we like to yeah we we spent we spent
00:20:43
like a million to Ay I spent 900,000 on the Barbie party on the pier these we spent more this year this year we did oh
00:20:53
my God [ __ ] well see that me let me just put a little plug in this year at the all- in Summit in La
00:21:01
the first night is going to be insane insane never it's like everything last year combined like yeah it's going to be
00:21:09
awesome anyway you I mean uh my job is to burn all the money I'm like Jimmy at Mr Beast like like like let's flip a
00:21:17
coin and double it you know I kind of feel that that's like what's interesting when you have success as an
00:21:25
artist is being able to deploy resources to make something that gives Joy or that
00:21:32
experience right and I one of the the great things about the event is when people show up and they dress when a
00:21:40
party has a theme great music great people and that's in a really great location something happens to has
00:21:47
anybody been to one of the all- in Summit parties raise your hand open open bar open bar well fought me on the open
00:21:53
bar I'm like you got to have my thing was wine and beer and like a couple of cocktails but this guy's like a bit of a
00:21:59
lush and he's like we got to have like all the high-end stuff and then what happens is the last hour think
00:22:04
everyone's like sipping champagne looking in the sunset no people are pounding double Mallen 18s cuz they're
00:22:09
like I got to get my money's worth and then I all of a sudden I'm in a headlock getting somebody's taking a self me
00:22:15
you're my favorite friend I love you um what do you think of the the phenomenon now of building audience to
00:22:26
distribute a product because this is in Ed this is a great by the way let's just
00:22:30
ask the broader question what's the business model you have a new Creator they're starting to build an audience
00:22:36
advise them on what are the paths they can walk and where that can go because this is one of the paths a great one
00:22:41
that we're talking about but like what are the options and when does one become an option sure I mean no matter what
00:22:48
everyone is making videos attracting an audience and selling a product the product is either theirs or someone
00:22:55
else's like if we go back in the history of media why are they called soap oper they were literally created to sell soap
00:23:01
Yes right and so I I think um that right that is right soap was like the the car
00:23:07
companies I soap were the uh the big sponsors really on no but like it was it was programming that was created to
00:23:14
attract a specific audience that was interested in buying soap totally right and so that's why the programming
00:23:19
happened in the middle of the day um and so the the reality is like you can say Housewives at that time nobody's going
00:23:25
to think you're a misogynist you said it not me but you know I mean at the time that was a
00:23:30
nuclear family was nuclear family and that's that's why they were called soap operas um so you know the reality is for
00:23:37
a young Creator I would say that the number one piece of advice is actually keep your operation lean and your costs
00:23:42
very low most great creators can create if you're a good Storyteller you can make videos right now on the internet
00:23:48
with your iPhone um the number one thing you have to think about is the audience
00:23:52
that you are engaging cuz at the core of it your product is your relationship ship with the audience it's the trust
00:23:59
that you have with the audience and so that takes a long time to build um some creators make the mistake of of raising
00:24:06
money to start making their content or some creators make the mistake of hiring a big staff that creates too much
00:24:12
overhead you're going to start doing deals that maybe you don't want to do you need cash to finance your content
00:24:17
first and foremost it's like keep it lean make good stuff find the audience your first hundred videos are going to
00:24:22
suck just build until you find the audience that you want yeah and then the business models will start to
00:24:29
um emerge whether that's hey you know what I built a great brand and part of my content I'm Emma Chamberlain and part
00:24:34
of my content is I drink coffee every day so maybe I should launch a coffee brand I take the coffee that I'm
00:24:39
drinking every day meaning meaning make your own brand yeah right and that that's but that's hard that means you
00:24:45
have like critical mass big scale you're reaching millions and millions cost challenge but payoff is higher yeah and
00:24:52
that's the big it can be it can be I think cpg is really it's all predicated on connecting with an audience first so
00:24:57
the ad I think what I'm hearing is hey connect with the audience and put on the back half of your career monetization
00:25:08
but just connect and and Marquez I don't know if you ever seen uh his early reviews I mean it's hilarious he's like
00:25:15
how old is he 15 16 17 years old and he's like I'm using this phone it's the iPhone 4 Jimmy's First videos are still
00:25:21
up on YouTube yeah Mr BEAST's First videos is he's still up there you got to go watch I mean I watched one of them
00:25:25
it's him counting to 10,000 I think that was that by the that was a later video his very first videos you got to go
00:25:30
watch like the first 10 videos I mean he's playing video games you can't even see his face you're like what and he's
00:25:35
speaking speaking how this guy become the most famous person in the world from from that but you can see the evolution
00:25:40
he watches paint dry in a video like a 20 hour long video but uh just to go back to the question isn't one of the
00:25:47
other paths selling your content so now we're seeing a bunch of deals Jimmy's getting a deal from Amazon Amazon paid
00:25:55
him for the Beast games um we're seeing more comedians that do live shows getting deals with Netflix we're seeing
00:26:03
a bunch more of those happen we're seeing um Hulu and other platforms start to bid even uh X might be doing some
00:26:10
more content deals with uh folks that look more like journalists so ultimately how do you decide whether I want to
00:26:17
monetize by ads and making a product or is there becoming a more liquid market for selling my content on to bigger
00:26:25
platforms that are losing their audience to be independent and they need to basically go rebuild an audience like is
00:26:30
that a realistic path or is that just like the the cream of the cream get to have access to kind of I think that's a
00:26:34
realistic path for the top and maybe you could talk about the Spotify thing especially if we're talking about
00:26:38
streaming I think it's a realistic path for the top um and I I don't look at it as like selling content I look at it as
00:26:43
selling distribution like bringing distribution and audience the ads get layered on to these platforms yeah I
00:26:49
mean talk about amazing digital circus yeah I think interesting where it's probably going there's an interesting
00:26:53
case study there's a YouTube channel called amazing digital circus uh which is an animated Channel and they did a
00:26:58
deal that is super unique I think the first of its kind where they will be Distributing on Netflix at the same
00:27:03
exact time as they distribute on YouTube so Netflix licensed the content and it's
00:27:08
coming out at the same time it's not it's not their content it's not proprietary to Netflix no right it's
00:27:13
licensed deal in that regard he's making money on Advertising but he wouldn't be
00:27:18
getting he's not getting paid as much or they're not getting paid as much as if they sold the content and the rights to
00:27:23
Netflix is that right yeah maybe if it was like an original yeah I guess if it was exclusive but this is a shed moment
00:27:28
in many ways cuz Netflix was really about them being The Taste maker them underwriting it right you know at least
00:27:36
in this like Netflix post licensing DVDs then they became the creators the Arbiters and now they're going back in
00:27:45
some ways to saying we're going to cherry-pick people off of YouTube give them money for their quarter billion
00:27:53
subscribers it's a really fascinating moment I think probably that if you've seen the neelon ratings of connected TV
00:27:59
usage YouTube's at the top at 11% right it's the most used streaming app on connected TVs Netflix is at 88.5% and in
00:28:07
December after Beast games Thursday night football and that movie that they did with the rock Amazon they made a
00:28:12
move moved up to 4% right so but YouTube Netflix moved up you mean Amazon Prime video moved
00:28:19
up% uh at 8.5% and YouTube but YouTube's at 11% right like right the reality is um there's a really interesting quote
00:28:27
from Ted OS when Netflix won uh their first Emmy for House of Cards cuz Netflix was an aggregator beforehand
00:28:33
right so Netflix goes from aggregator starts producing original programming and it was a massive moment when they
00:28:38
won an Emmy because that was pretty new that some internet tech company can win an em strange and Ted Sandos said
00:28:44
television is television it doesn't matter which pipe brings it forward and I think it's a really important thing
00:28:50
that the major difference when it comes to YouTube is Netflix is going to spend 18 billion on content this year YouTube
00:28:56
doesn't spend on content YouTube does a revenue share they actually technically don't know what's going to get uploaded
00:29:00
today and it could be the biggest video of the day it could be something like amazing digital circus that did 500
00:29:05
million views across three episodes wow it's also interesting Netflix I'm sorry YouTube premium taking the ads out is
00:29:13
at0 125 million subscribers that 125 now I knew that broke how many people here pay for Netflix red or the premium
00:29:22
version that takes out the Eds wait YouTube red oh YouTube PRI premium YouTube premium the godamn name how many
00:29:28
people are YouTube wow that's pretty significant it's like a third of the audience and what is that 12 bucks it's
00:29:34
like 20 bucks yeah it's 20 bucks 20 I think it's the best 20 bucks I spend on I agree how do the um the guys that are
00:29:40
losing audience which are the traditional broadcasters how are they going to respond as Their audience gets
00:29:46
a Tred away like we're seeing as long form is taking up more time and attention from The
00:29:53
Independents Fox News is losing an audience CNN is losing an audience MSN NBC is losing an audience I mean their
00:29:59
their audiences are gone like they're just vaporizing right now what are they going to do they've got a lot of cash
00:30:04
they got a lot of advertising dollars still flowing in for now no they're well capitalized they've got very motivated
00:30:11
shareholders what's their response if you guys are an executive running Fox what would you do and we spoke about
00:30:16
this recently but there already are some shows on cable that are starting to act
00:30:21
more like digital channels more like YouTube channels right if you look at like Saturday Night Live or you look at
00:30:27
late night those are actually just a bunch of segments that can work really well when uploaded to YouTube or to the
00:30:33
internet and I think when you bring up Fox News News is actually one of the last genres of cable to try and figure
00:30:40
out or be able to figure out how to put themselves into segments that work at the 20 plus minute range which is what's
00:30:48
working on YouTube right now but the long form is crushing too right like the hourong I mean our show is 90 minutes
00:30:55
Lex does 3 and a half hours say R's like hours long and he's number one when I say 20 plus I mean like that's like the
00:31:02
minimum like 20 and and continuing to go so but does that mean that they're going
00:31:08
to try and license Rogan they're going to try and license Lex they're going to try and license one of these
00:31:12
Independents in is that the move that they're going to have to make ultimately that's going to be like a big changing
00:31:17
of the guards because that's like a there's like some risk mitigation that I don't know if they would be comfortable
00:31:21
with Pat McAfee yeah I guess Pat mcafe is a good example on ESPN a sports guy yeah yeah Sports so ESPN just picked him
00:31:27
up yeah that's right yeah he does independent yeah well he he came on to ESPN but that also created some you know
00:31:33
ESPN tried something similar with bar stool a while ago right and barcol got taken off the air within an episode or
00:31:39
two because again there's a risk factor they said some stuff on air and they were like we can't we can't do this get
00:31:44
them off the air but mcafe is the more mature you know iteration of that as both spaces have kind of matured um
00:31:49
that's like a YouTube show that was brought television and mcafe is really good where he's doing I don't know if
00:31:54
you guys saw the college game Day stuff where he's doing the big field goal kicks for 100,000
00:31:58
it's essentially a YouTube title but built for TV that then gets clipped and put onto YouTube right and so I think
00:32:04
that's that's what Colin saying ISB at any moment and it looks like you're watching a podcast right when you see
00:32:09
his show the production level is pretty low so they're going to so is is the media exec going to go out and find the
00:32:15
next or the up and cominging and say I want to bring you on I'm going to pay you to come and do this on my platform
00:32:20
now you're going to become a Fox News show you're going to become an ESPN show they have to that's like they have to
00:32:25
give irrational deals to creators right versus the talent agent showing up and saying here's a good the other problem
00:32:31
is distribution so like Jimmy for example like Jimmy is yes he's in the media business but he's in the chocolate
00:32:36
business right and so being able to get to 200 300 million people in a video is really significant and YouTube being at
00:32:45
the top of the connected TV streaming apps like you'd probably choose YouTube if you're just going pure distribution
00:32:51
if you're selling a chocolate brand or some other type of CBG product you choose distribution over not totally and
00:32:57
so I think when you're getting offered a deal to go onto Fox News do stuff on linear TV it has to be such an
00:33:02
irrational deal because it limits my distribution right even if I go onto a a Netflix technically I'm actually I'm
00:33:09
limited in distribution if I'm Mr Beast y not if I'm another cre also the money and control issues are also very acute I
00:33:17
when this week when Stardust was doing good right before Allin started I met with the Sirius XM team and they were
00:33:24
like hey you know we think you might have some like Howard Stern potential and what if you got Travis from Uber he
00:33:29
was very hot at the time um and a couple of guys to come on and and do like a you
00:33:34
know Round Table thing and and make it fun and then when I like we started talking money I was like that's less
00:33:40
money than this week in startups makes already and I Own 100% of it would I own the IP here and they're like well no no
00:33:45
we own the IP and I'm like I mean this is we're talking six years ago seven years ago and then even now you know
00:33:51
once in a while I'll talk to CNBC or somebody will come and say Hey you know you have any ideas and I'm like it
00:33:58
doesn't economically make sense for a Creator who has escape velocity to go backwards and I I I wonder freedberg if
00:34:06
the answer to this question is anybody who is actually talented enough like a Megan Kelly or you know somebody who
00:34:16
like Mr Beast or even uh Tucker Carlson like how could they ever go back to FOX NOW right that's the point I don't think
00:34:23
they will I think it's entropy it's only going in One Direction I think there audience aot their advertising dollars a
00:34:29
road and then they're getting whatever broadcasting distribution Deals they have on cable are going to slowly be
00:34:36
worth less I don't know what it's going to be worth I think Colin isn't this Colin like because fox fox and SiriusXM
00:34:43
and CNBC have a cost infrastructure so when they meet Talent they're like Talent gets 20% and then we need to get
00:34:50
our 20% and then the other 50 60% has to go to the shareholders yeah and the building and and the 50 [ __ ] camera
00:34:58
operators no you're 100% right the model's broken mod great thing about your guys shows it's on started on Zoom
00:35:04
we talked about this in the context of creators like back the advice to an up-and-coming Creator it's the same it's
00:35:08
the same advice keep your overhead cost extremely low creators are the startups of Hollywood we always say like think
00:35:14
out on a 52 we schedule could you do this every week week for 52 weeks if you're someone who loves to set up
00:35:20
cameras and lights sure you might be able to do that but if you're 100% right busy people you're like yeah we can hop
00:35:25
on Zoom every week for 50 and if this if this if were like what you're describing
00:35:28
there's no freaking way i' do it like zero chance like I the only reason I do it is because I can get on Zoom for 90
00:35:33
minutes and be done and then I go on the rest of my day for work like the the turning point of the Pod really was when
00:35:41
you know used to run out of my operation and I said the guys have to commit to Thursdays the same time we cannot if
00:35:47
this is going to work everybody has to agree that Thursdays at 11:00 a.m. Pacific or sacur Saint and uh everybody
00:35:54
agreed we all blocked it out we all blocked it out and we said no if anybody has to move then we go to our list of
00:36:02
you know fifth besties six besties and we rotate them in but we're not going to like move around chamat schedule
00:36:08
schedule free and that's when the show really like actually okay let me let me take the conversation in the opposite
00:36:14
direction now which is we're going from like points of high low leverage Fox News lots of cameras lots of buildings
00:36:21
expenses to low leverage being on zoom and a laptop to let me talk about the lower leverage are you seeing any
00:36:29
success in geni only content channels out there and maybe you could talk about as gen gets better and better and better
00:36:39
do we have agents that ingest the news ingest content ingest data repackage it and then create new versions of through
00:36:47
an iterative process to to kind of hack the algorithm to figure out how do I get
00:36:52
stuff that people stay on what's the right Cut Rate what's the right color balance what's the right sound what's
00:36:56
the right audio what's the right music and ultimately the Gen gen does what great content creators like Jimmy took
00:37:03
10 years to do in a couple weeks and ultimately creates like a whole new category and I'm just thinking ahead
00:37:09
here now but like maybe you tell us today on the ground if you're seeing any gen that's like got realistic traction
00:37:15
out there for me personally there's no geni channels that are 100% geni that I am watching or at least that I know of
00:37:23
uh that I'm consuming and that I'm enjoying but I mean even within our organization with a lot of other
00:37:28
creators the amount of AI tools that we're using from like scripting to even cutting the angles on our show like
00:37:35
we're continually adopting more and more AI tools and I think uh which is the way
00:37:39
it should be the audience I don't think even really can tell yeah right so it's like slowly seeping in into production
00:37:45
yeah but not taking it over have you played with notebook LM yes it's pretty amazing my advantage point with the
00:37:51
first time I fed a PDF into notebook LM was the Spotify earnings report and I was like I'm I have a 20 Drive I want to
00:37:58
hear this and it was 9 minutes and it was perfect yeah and you can if you don't know what notebook LM is it's a
00:38:05
project by Google you can you can feed in a bunch of text it'll turn into audio it'll have two hosts they host it like a
00:38:10
podcast yeah so then I started to think okay well actually you can just custom make yourself a podcast for your drive
00:38:17
right and go hey I'm I'm driving 30 minutes I want to know about the NFL scores I want to know about the Netflix
00:38:23
earnings call and I'm also interested in what's going on the world of the Creator
00:38:28
economy and all of a sudden you have a aggregate of news and and articles and it gets turned into audio and it's
00:38:34
compelling and does that replace the time that you would otherwise spend listening to podcasts and watching
00:38:39
videos it's a more so what's interesting about gen content I found especially with notebook Elm it's it's a more
00:38:44
efficient way to consume content but I don't think we prioritize efficiency always as hum no of course that would be
00:38:52
like soilent you know it's like well this is no no offense Brian but I'm just saying like this nutty pudding concept
00:38:58
my wife makes me the Nutty pudding I'm like you know what I kind of want the regular pudding anyway I know it's
00:39:03
healthier um but this is it kind of takes out the spontaneity of what you know if you want that NBA content I live
00:39:12
I watch this Nix thing Nix fan TV yeah and this guy takes all the clips and last night the nck won in overtime the
00:39:21
Kell Bridges amazing buzzer beater and I was as excited to open up Nick's fan TV
00:39:28
right you know he comes on 15 minutes after the game and watch the community's reaction to it and every time the Knicks
00:39:35
win I will give a $100 tip in a super chat I probably give two or $3,000 a year just to support this Creator
00:39:41
because it reminds me of WF in New York and he has all these regular callers it is such a spectacular product and then I
00:39:50
noticed that I'm like into Corvettes and I'm in the YouTube thing and I got the Corvettes in my sidebar right and and
00:39:57
this [ __ ] are like creating fake AI Corvette announcements that aren't real and they're using generative
00:40:04
Ai and they're saying the new zr17 is here I'm like what I'm going to get the ZR1 and then it's there's a 17 I click
00:40:10
on this thing and it's this AI voice Chevy Corvettes are known for having the greatest engines American I block that
00:40:18
[ __ ] but I block that channel so look you're right but trip I hit the triple dot ban
00:40:26
look I would be less dismissive as we all know every month we're a little more surprised by
00:40:33
what gen can do and the power of it there's a really important human directorial role in the early days of
00:40:39
this gen Revolution and I think that it enables an incredible fragmentation of media even more than we're seeing today
00:40:45
in their crater economy maybe you end up getting your personal news feed with the
00:40:50
newscaster or the podcaster or the ncks super fans reading to you what happened at the game last night that's gen
00:40:58
completely and it's indistinguishable from reality that's where I think things may get a little more funky in the next
00:41:04
couple years I don't think it's like that suggests also like this kind of Mo far move away from monoculture into like
00:41:11
extreme microcultures which we kind of already existed each of us opens our pH I got a point of view on this one which
00:41:16
is like I I do think that there's um shared cultural facts but different cultural experience of the facts meaning
00:41:25
like the the game is the game but the commentator that tells me about the game is different yes and that's where I
00:41:31
think this all plays out where I'm going to have like my own tuned broadcaster she could be really
00:41:37
beautiful I don't know and she could be really cool she could be talking to me you know oneon-one I don't know it could
00:41:43
be really weird it's really funny I actually I get on um on chat GPT advanced voice and I have this female
00:41:49
voice and when my wife's in the car I start I'm like I'm like I'm like hey baby what's going on and my wife gets so
00:41:54
upset yeah I was about to say freeberg as your I'm going to go ahead and adise you
00:42:00
not and I think that's where it might start by the way we're going to come back and talk again in a few minutes but
00:42:05
Colin and Samir thank you guys we'll see you guys thanks so much Austin's unique okay there's a lot of podcasters
00:42:15
here so you know I came to town I got a lot of podcasting friends and as you know I'm podcast famous which is the
00:42:24
fame that goes right below reality television and uh we're incredibly lucky because
00:42:30
our next guest is both podcast famous and reality television famous and he's in Austin and uh when I came here I was
00:42:38
like you know I'm going to come here and I'm going to hang with all my podcasting
00:42:43
Bros so I texted Tim FIS I was like Tim Let's uh let's get dinner Tim's like yeah I'm trying to find a a girlfriend
00:42:52
wife you know I got to try to grow up make a baby all this kind of stuff and so I'm I'm I'm out and about I'm not in
00:43:00
town then I I text okay well I'm M for one but I'll text Lex Freeman text Lex Freeman he's like I'm having panic
00:43:09
attacks I don't know my life existential I had Kanye on you told me not to do it
00:43:15
he was you were right and then I I had zinski I had zinsky on then I had Putin on everybody hates me but everybody
00:43:22
loves the pot he's he's he's a he's a hot mess and he's like I can't find a girlfriend either
00:43:29
so then I text Chris Williamson and I'm like hey you know let's have dinner he's
00:43:33
like Jal let's eat a steak I need your help I'm trying to find a girlfriend and so ladies and gentlemen Chris
00:43:43
Williamson we're going to find out such a good wingman good to see a good wingman get over
00:43:52
here oh man you know we um chamath is off the program and now we've got a real man on the Pod Chris Williamson will be
00:44:02
taking chamat seat going forward he's so handsome um what's going on you and I had a little
00:44:08
steak and uh I think he double booked but I appreciate being the first seating uh on your Friday night you you went out
00:44:15
think I'm sloppy thirds for this Choice um no no we Sav The Best For Last there it is good safe yeah I I'm full
00:44:24
that's why you're such a good wingman I'm a I'm a I'm I'm solid wingman I helped Lex out a bit but um what's going
00:44:31
on on The Dating front let's be honest here did you where are you at because uh a lot of ladies want to know is Chris
00:44:38
Williamson still on the market or not uh off the market currently but I did shave
00:44:41
the handle bomb stash which I think sort of straightened me up as well people were worried about that he shows up for
00:44:46
our state dinner with the porn stash of all porn stashes just unbelievable this handlebar thing and I was like you know
00:44:53
Chris we don't know each other whatever are you straight it's like as an arrow spent 50% of the meal asking me whether
00:44:59
I'm straight that kind of sounded a little bit like a wishful thinking after the lady dothing quiet too much I
00:45:04
thought there was a there I thought there was a window facial hair I felt there was a window but you started it in
00:45:09
reality TV yeah uh technically I suppose so yeah I mean that's how you got your first taste of media and fame yeah you
00:45:16
on love Island that would be fair yes I I actually did a reality TV show before that I have illustrious history of
00:45:21
reality TV oh okay uh it was a nightclub promoter commercial model DJ reality TV
00:45:27
and uh that's my career too by the way I was about to say yeah actually I did a little Summer Stock very similar to your
00:45:35
reality T comedian told me the other day uh commercial mail model club promoter DJ reality TV is otherwise known as [ __ ]
00:45:46
Bingo ah yes yes absolutely uh so I had a full house and um yeah look did some reality TV stuff
00:45:56
that was uh kind of like an existential crisis that was captured on television 24 hours a day uh being trapped in a a
00:46:03
house for a little while and then got toward the end of my 20s and Rogan Sam Harris aland debaton from the school of
00:46:11
Life uh Jordan Peterson are all coming to the front and I thought wow I'm learning a lot from these people I'm
00:46:16
less of an adult infant as I was when I first started listening to them maybe if
00:46:20
I started my own show I would be able to have these sorts of conversations they felt really nourishing to me and uh 900
00:46:27
episodes and a billion and a bit downloads did you think about it did you think about it as an interview show were
00:46:33
you like I want to interview people or were you like I want to explore the world or I want to teach people or what
00:46:38
what was the kind of I had nothing to teach people right and how at all yeah um so it was very much yeah I'm going to
00:46:43
find these interesting people who understand how the world works I want to understand myself and the world around
00:46:48
me and uh but you start off with who you've got around you your friends like Kai way the guy that invite invented the
00:46:54
light phone he was episode 10 cuz I was super obsessed with digital minimalism and what social media was doing to our
00:47:00
brains and then there was a season of relationships and a season of health and fitness and there was a season of EV
00:47:04
evolutionary psychology so it's a it's a thinly veiled autobiography which I actually think a lot of people's sort of
00:47:10
true bodies of work are if you following your instinct you're just it's a little
00:47:15
trail of breadcrumbs of where your mind was at at that time yeah and you figured
00:47:20
out the great hack of podcasting which is if you want to learn really quick if you hang out with smart people and you
00:47:28
ask some very simple questions and and you you're present and you listen to the answers maybe you're really good at the
00:47:33
follow-up question by the way which is always how I judge an interviewer how good they are at being present and not
00:47:38
being like okay question number one done check now let's go to number two the you
00:47:43
know you're really good at listening and and finding that next question but you you it is such an amazing hack to learn
00:47:50
right and and to to build a network and to even build a group of friends look I always felt reticent that I did business
00:47:56
at University I did two business degrees including a masters and I can't remember
00:48:00
anything from either of them I spent a lot of time partying again club promoter [ __ ] Bingo
00:48:05
um and I always thought I wish I'd gone and done psychology I wish I'd sort of followed something more approximating a
00:48:12
passion or philosophy or sociology or something and then I realized a couple years ago I was like well you have done
00:48:19
that you've got to design your own degree only speaking to the best in their field about the very specific
00:48:24
Niche part of their topic that you want to learn on your terms with no coursework or homework beyond what you
00:48:30
want to do and you get to call it a job so whatever version of the simulation that we're in at the moment I need to
00:48:35
sort of thank the designer because it's wild I get to call this a career it's uh
00:48:40
I think we all feel that way uh in in many respects tell me about uh you know Sam's a good friend of mine um we had we
00:48:48
had the same book agent for a long time and uh I remember I had him on my podcast and he said what's podcasting
00:48:54
and I explained it to him and he said well how do I do it and I said well you get two microphones and a guest and he's
00:49:00
like then what I'm like well then we hit the record button and and I helped him start the the Pod um what are your
00:49:06
thoughts on what he's done and his influence because I know you've really had him
00:49:12
you've had him on a couple times yeah no he's been on once only once okay yeah yeah his wife's been on as well oh
00:49:17
anak's been on as well yeah she's fantastic so tell me about your favorite guest Sam Jordan Peterson I know there's
00:49:24
a bunch of he's he's pretty great uh it's kind of like having to choose from 900 children I suppose um one of
00:49:32
the most reliable guests actually a guy called Rory Southerland you know R Rory amazing for people who don't know
00:49:38
imagine a Gruff upper class British swear Uncle who also happens to be one of the best behavioral economists on the
00:49:47
planet so this guy understands consumer Behavior like like nobody else in fact if you go into OG's website and you look
00:49:53
at the job description uh on the board members it says Rory suland Vice chairman of ogal the advertising Rory
00:49:59
got to design his own job title specifically so no one actually knows what he does and um he's just he's he's
00:50:05
fantastic speaking to Jordan was great uh Alan from the the school of life is just he sees The Human Condition very
00:50:11
accurately so it's fun you know I get to indulge my own Curiosities and and follow my instincts do you think other
00:50:18
people can do it should do it this is a big thing I see is like folks that want to kind of create a business through
00:50:26
this kind of new Creator economy there's all these paths to monetization build the audience and they're like what I'll
00:50:31
do is I'll go find people to interview and I'll interview them what's the barrier for folks what makes folks
00:50:36
really great at this what's the challenge in the business and how do you kind of do it better than others like
00:50:41
yeah I think Christopher Hitchens says everyone has a buck in them and for most that's where it should stay
00:50:49
and I wonder whether podcasting may be uh something similar um but it's certainly a skill set that you can
00:50:55
develop um look I think the best thing is a project so personal to you that you would do it if nobody listened right and
00:51:04
for me if everybody switched off tomorrow I did this when no one listened your conversations with people that you
00:51:11
were truly interested in learning from it's a private it's a it's an autobiography for me it's a repository
00:51:17
of my own I think that's really interesting because kind of like our podcast was us literally talking with
00:51:22
each other about the things that were going on in the world and how we were maneuvering and and talking about Market
00:51:28
stuff that we would literally do at the poker table look and then we just did it
00:51:32
on zoom and put on the internet all of the people that are here I listen every week I think the pod's fantastic I get
00:51:37
to tune in and just listen to between three and five guys depending on who's available that week just have a hang and
00:51:44
it feels like you're dropping in on precisely the poker table or the private room of the steak dinner and that's why
00:51:50
I think people are massive fans of the show because it feels like I know you you're genuine authentic conversations
00:51:58
that you want to have as an individual that you're interested in having it's like it's like uh if your friend list
00:52:04
was just a little bit better educated than you and you're like okay I get to find out it's a little bit more elevated
00:52:10
as a conversation yeah by the way this is a little different than what we talked about which is the other side of
00:52:14
this Creator economy which is hacking an audience making stuff for an audience growing the audience where your focus is
00:52:20
on algorithmically technically tactically identifying things that the audience likes and then focusing on
00:52:26
those things and building from there and this is a very different kind of T both
00:52:30
work this is the right tack by the way is to pursue your Muse and to do something that's authentically
00:52:36
interesting to you you and I both agree on like film and the importance of great
00:52:40
film and great directors are the ones that were left the [ __ ] alone you know the the the great directors are the ones
00:52:46
who got the deals with the studios where they were told they had complete creative control Final Cut yeah look it
00:52:52
you can still play that game I have two full-time catalog strategists and two back catalog strategists as well for
00:53:00
YouTube so we have a big team that's playing the algo game they're chopping down Clips so look I think that uh what
00:53:06
is it that Ferris says about in the shortterm your results are determined by your intensity in the longterm your
00:53:12
results are determined by your consistency but don't trade the latter for the former and if you try and go too
00:53:17
hard if you try and do things where you're being ventriloquized by the audience I'm going to try and reverse
00:53:22
engineer what I think the audience wants from me which means that if they stop loving you not only do you not have the
00:53:30
one thing you used to have but you didn't even make a body of work that you cared about either so you end up
00:53:34
resenting the audience and yeah for me it's kind of like a bulletproof strategy you're going to keep going for longer
00:53:40
because you like what you do so can we talk about monetization how you think about making money and before we get to
00:53:45
that you know I just I I really want to bang on this just a little bit more you you also made a decision we were talking
00:53:51
before about we did something lowii to just get ourselves in the same space face virtually with zoom for a couple of
00:53:59
hours your production quality is absolutely stunning you care about athetics you care about the lighting and
00:54:06
the location just for the audience here take us through that decision and I don't I I don't know the earliest part
00:54:14
of the catalog and if you did it to that level uh you have done some zooms I believe because Rory is only available
00:54:19
on Zoom but but take me through the aesthetic choices you made uh and why yeah so I realized about three years ago
00:54:27
that most podcasters are something with a podcast they're a UFC fighter with a podcast they're a comedian with a
00:54:34
podcast there whatever investors with a podcast right it's not their profession so I asked myself what would it look
00:54:40
like if we turned Pro being a podcaster and part of that is the lift needs to be
00:54:46
very low for most people that are busy doing other things because they're busy doing other things so they can't spend
00:54:51
ages going towards this you know one big production uh so I started working with
00:54:56
Cinema photographers I got one of the best directors of Photography in America uh he's out of Nashville I got a
00:55:00
producer we got grips Gaffers we started using location Scouts and we started to
00:55:05
dial in a very specific luck we started to use handheld cameras on tripods monopods dollies doorway dollies we did
00:55:12
the first ever Five camera podcast on uh LED video wall the same technology that
00:55:18
was used for the Mandalorian and as we were talking live the video uh controller changed the scenes based on
00:55:26
on what we talked about so if we moved from a war story to a scary story in a spooky house we went from uh Afghan base
00:55:34
with trucks driving around and helicopters coming in to a spooky house that had is it like literally the
00:55:39
opposite of what col Samir saying with keep the budget low but I got I mean just knowing what I know about
00:55:46
production costs that that sounds like you're spending 30 40 dim an episode it's yeah it's not far off that um we
00:55:53
can get it down by squeezing here and there thankfully my my line producer is uh a sort of bully when it comes to
00:55:59
trying to get that stuff down but look uh I like pretty things and I think that one way that you can Excel is to stand
00:56:05
out visually and um look who I'm on stage with um I like things to look nice and I didn't see
00:56:14
anyone that was really elevating the way that stuff looked does it change the subject's uh mindset and the the
00:56:23
interview itself when they when they see how beautiful it is when they see the investment in it does it change
00:56:29
something in the subject so I I have this belief that at least in the world of podcasting was sort of splitting into
00:56:35
two directions at the moment one of them is perhaps a little bit more elevated it's the modern wisdoms it's the Steven
00:56:42
bartletts of the world and then the other side is the more sort of low Tech it would be Allin it would be mat mat
00:56:48
Shane's secret podcast and then you know you've got sort of a Rogen or a flagrant
00:56:52
that sort of sits somewhere in the middle which is good quality not insane it's just just facilitating the hang and
00:56:58
um I think that barbell both of those is a a good way to go you can lean into the
00:57:03
real sort of high-end production stuff and when the guest turns up and they're like wow we're in a you know
00:57:10
25,000 foot Warehouse in the middle of LA and there's a team of 15 people here and there's huge lights and there's guys
00:57:17
holding dollies like they're lock in you know they're really there to oh this is
00:57:21
an occasion this isn't me just turning up for a chat but that wouldn't work for every time of show in fact what you want
00:57:27
to do is facilitate a little bit more ease so that's why I still like doing stuff over Zoom or I guess like
00:57:34
Riverside or whatever we use uh because I want to have that casual sort of convers not
00:57:41
everyone wants to turn up and it feel like it's a you know the World Cup final of podcasting yeah should we go to the
00:57:46
monetization so like how you How do you start thinking about building the business high quality content authentic
00:57:51
content was it a conversation about hey let me just put this out there make ads and I'll figure it out later or was it
00:57:58
very deliberate and how's the model kind of evolving for you yeah so it was emergent over time uh you start off just
00:58:05
taking whoever you can get a lot of supplement companies and teeth whitening companies whatever whatever's available
00:58:10
you read that Y and they come in or you call out uh I did Outreach for the first
00:58:15
five or 600 episodes of the show so I was managing my own ads I was sending the invoices I was slowly scaling up the
00:58:21
cpms you can get between a 15 $25 CPM something like that Audio Only I made the commitment not to do ads on YouTube
00:58:29
because if it was a virtual episode it felt like it was such a low lift that that kind of didn't justify making
00:58:35
people sit through baked in ads at least on YouTube but we got away with you mean
00:58:39
where you have the option to turn them off uh no these are hardcoded into the uh file itself so you just yeah that
00:58:46
that's what's referred to as baked in uh and then look we've got ourselves to the
00:58:50
stage now where we have some pretty interesting setups I think I'm one of the only podcasters that does this where
00:58:55
we sell an entire EOS system so if you come on board as one of what we call our Flagship Partners you get uh set of
00:59:03
Impressions across the entire year let's say 40 million 60 million impressions then you get uh a number of Instagram
00:59:09
story sequences on my Instagram you'll get newsletter drops on my newsletter which has got 300,000 subs and a 50%
00:59:15
open rate lots of Click through on that and then maybe I'll come speak at your AG or I'll do something else and we
00:59:21
build out this big package that will elevate the level of the partner too because
00:59:28
they're being thoughtful so you're going to remove the nickeling diing people who
00:59:33
should just be buying cost per click ads on a you know meta and now you've got people who are actually thinking about
00:59:40
their brand and what they want their brand associated with I mean function Health who I think on here somewhere uh
00:59:46
we did a two-year deal with them and uh I love what they do I use them to track my blood work and I thought why would I
00:59:51
not want to be in bed with a company that I use all the time absolutely yeah I mean in in our case it's deepen the
00:59:56
relationship as well so um element James from element if there's something he wants to talk about to do with brand I
01:00:01
have a good Insight when it comes to Brand especially from a Creator side or ad reads and I'll happily just you know
01:00:07
do a couple of hours of work this is what we've seen that's been working interesting when we were talking about
01:00:11
the old media model I'm new to all this stuff so I'm not like big in this podcasting space but I just observed so
01:00:16
maybe what I say is super reductive and obvious but it's like you got these pharmaceutical ads on Fox News and it's
01:00:23
in and it's in between the segments and no one on the none of the anchors give a
01:00:27
[ __ ] about the pharmaceutical ad nor do they talk about or promote it and they
01:00:30
have no connection to it there's no authenticity to it but here there's an opportunity to be selective and to have
01:00:35
it be part of the content part of the experience and it actually probably does better as a result with the audience
01:00:40
than you would get with that you know have you talked to your doctor about yeah diarrhea like or whatever in the
01:00:46
same way you know what it is in the same way as following your instincts on the show when it comes to what you talk
01:00:52
about if you can get yourself to the luxurious position where you get to choose your partners as well every
01:00:58
single product that I partner with I use so let's talk about so you got leverage
01:01:03
yeah whitelisted advertising was something we started on this week and started from the beginning which was if
01:01:09
I don't use the product or don't like it we we turn it down we turn down all kinds of crazy offers from you know
01:01:16
services that you'll hear like I was I was on Megan Kelly and I heard her read one of two of these ads and I was like
01:01:22
God I would never read that ad because I know that if you type in that product and scam or complaints it'll be like a
01:01:31
long list of people complaining about it and then we were talking about her business and she's using a third-party
01:01:38
agency to sell her Partnerships I said Megan you're Megan Kelly like just get to ad reps to and partnership people and
01:01:46
you have to build that leg of the stool you you've got the content you've got the distribution you've got the
01:01:50
advertising the partners you have to have all three of the stool or else let me ask let me ask over yeah two
01:01:56
questions who have you turned down like advertising wise no category just tell me the category anything anything which
01:02:02
is to do with investing we've said no to by gold Jonathan Jonathan mad's gu stood
01:02:07
there and he hates it because you know these guys are prepared to spend big money yeah you don't want your customers
01:02:12
losing money being upset at you there phly I I can't I don't have the chops to be able to assess whether or not this
01:02:18
bank or this new investment opportunity can you turn your Roth IRA into a 501k backed by I don't know I have no idea I
01:02:25
hear these I got Ben Shapiro you don't know either so that's interesting yeah well so let me ask you guys both a
01:02:31
question um in the old internet World there were these companies that emerged within double click a quantive that were
01:02:38
the site rep firms so there were a lot of independent websites out there they didn't they didn't have the most
01:02:44
sophisticated Salesforce they couldn't go hire the two great sales reps to go do the work and dial in there wasn't a
01:02:50
very liquid market so the site rep firms would rep your site they would go out and get ad do you see more of those kind
01:02:56
of emerging today are they getting more sophisticated are they getting better to
01:02:59
enable smaller creators to be able to kind of be successful in this space right now maybe I mean I think it's it's
01:03:05
a difficult and you've never done it finish your thought and then I'll add mine yeah it's a difficult game to play
01:03:12
because people can go to create as a sort of round about my size and it's very reliable you know what you're going
01:03:19
to get in terms of plays you know what you're going to get in terms of demographic but the shows that are
01:03:22
smaller are growing so you don't actually know what it is you're going to get so maybe you can bundle all of these
01:03:28
guys together into some weird sort of dispersed multi Channel network type thing and there will bulk be sold by
01:03:34
some company that sits above them but it's it's so effortful and when you think some podcast going to do 25,000
01:03:40
plays totally you've got to go through all the rigmar and the red tape and the ad read to hit 25,000 people or you
01:03:46
could go to Rogan and hit like 100,000 times that have you ever used site reps no I always hated the concept even we're
01:03:55
doing blogs because um yeah you you wind up if you're going to take it seriously
01:04:03
and you want to make it into a great effort I think you you have to have that relationship and not somebody mitigating
01:04:08
it right I I think it's better to just focus on the content until you hit to to Chris's point the the reach that is
01:04:17
necessary to have people calling you on the phone and then being able to choose it and there's other monetization that's
01:04:22
available now merchandising uh creating premium content that people can do and so it's just those are those are better
01:04:30
Avenues um than using these rep firms and the rep firms it's a terrible business because if you do your job and
01:04:37
you actually do make money and the Creator does break out then they will leave you like Megan Kelly will leave
01:04:42
hers or Tucker this I don't know what the the one that does all the Tucker cson and and all those folks but I'm
01:04:48
just shocked like Tucker and Megan were getting paid 10 20 $30 million a year they can afford to have one or to add
01:04:56
people doing this for them and not giving 40% to somebody and it just corrupts the whole relationship let me
01:05:02
ask you guys both another question so you you've now got a great content creation engine which is you you have a
01:05:08
great content creation at this week in startups which is you and then you got this Advertiser setup so you got ad
01:05:14
dollars coming in how do you get leverag so that it's nonlinear any great business has a nonlinear scaling
01:05:20
function and in your business you guys are limited and you know this is something we've talked with Jimmy and Mr
01:05:25
Beast about like if it's just you making the content you can only make X number of units of content per month per year
01:05:32
so that limits the scalability of the revenue for your organization in terms of how big this can get do you ever
01:05:38
think about creating leverage in the system where you do almost like what a Spielberg does with an amul in
01:05:43
entertainment or any great director producer does where they scale up they become the producer Network they create
01:05:47
a network they create a studio model and then you have several content shows that
01:05:51
are under your brand and what have you ever thought about that is that kind of the the model where this is eventually
01:05:55
going to go where some of the great breakouts are going to end up realizing they can kind of scale up and build the
01:06:00
next Studio model if you want to do that then fine but I have no desire to start
01:06:04
managing a ton of other content creators managing myself is what if you still did
01:06:08
your show but you have others that you kind of bet on basically perhaps I guess it's it just doesn't speak to me all
01:06:13
that much and I think a question is what do you need this additional money for like what is it that you just need to
01:06:18
continue to build like more and more profit because I I quite like where I'm at I quite like the the level of Revenue
01:06:25
I make the workload that I have the fact that I get to spend a morning reading and I don't feel like I should have been
01:06:31
on more zoom calls so my ability to put the foot my foot on the gas or take it off is exclusively on me as opposed to
01:06:38
having other obligations so it's very much a lifestyle business and I understand that that's going to cap the
01:06:43
upside now there's some things I can start cpg I can start to do some clever stuff with ads where that will begin to
01:06:51
ramp and ramp and ramp but yeah I'm you've got unlimited upside with how you spend your time now you don't have to do
01:06:56
work 247 absolutely and you know there may be a day when I decide to press that button again but it's it's not right now
01:07:02
but just to like before Jason jumps in you've got YouTube AdSense Partners Spotify partner program which is brand
01:07:11
new and that's actually cranking quite a lot and then the one area that I think way more podcasters need to look at
01:07:17
which is monetizing Clips so you do mid roll ads on a long podcast episodes you know 20 minutes 30 minutes 50 minutes
01:07:25
100 20 minutes into an episode but you can also be seven minutes into an 8 minute long clip totally and you can
01:07:31
crank Clips out all the time so you can be putting out one a day right there's other points of Leverage exactly so you
01:07:37
can look at okay how can we a bit more a little bit more Innovative we can put Instagram stories up we can use
01:07:42
newsletters these sort of 360 deals and fill out all of the ecosystem where you can without obliterating the viewing
01:07:49
experience and like making the audience hate you you know I I think that's well said and the there's going to be
01:07:55
International as well with AI I don't know if you've experimented we have a company podcast AI dubbing stuff and
01:08:01
then that'll be built into YouTube so all of a sudden you'll be in Spanish Japanese and French and and the whole
01:08:07
cycle will start all over again um but you know I I did actually try that with this week in startups I got the domain
01:08:12
name this week in.com and we did this week in poker with Annie Duke and this week in blank
01:08:18
this week in blank this week in comedy we did we tried a bunch of those the problem was but you did you did
01:08:23
different shows I did some different shows in the beginning I did it for about a year and what I realized was you
01:08:29
could get you know average hosts broadcast host but you couldn't get someone like Chris or Annie Duke for the
01:08:37
long term we had a guy Dave pensado who's a music producer and I wanted to do this week in music he wanted to do
01:08:43
the Dave pensado show he had his own View and the really great creators what they realize is I want control of my art
01:08:52
I want control of my brand I want to own my IP I want want to pick my team I don't want to be part of a machine and
01:09:00
so what we're seeing is people like Megan Kelly and Tucker Carlson now are free Ben Shapiro started with um uh he
01:09:09
was on AM radio in uh the in Los Angeles and then he worked for Breitbart and now
01:09:15
he's got his own company he makes his own decisions so I I think a lot of the talent the most talented people will
01:09:19
want to be independent practitioners true there's there's a a sort of a weird level that people get to anybody who is
01:09:25
sufficiently talented for you to think that they're an aade player is probably not going to want to sit underneath
01:09:30
anybody else and if someone isn't that good you're kind of just filling the air with something that maybe isn't going to
01:09:37
catch so in this in the New Media world is it all just lots of Independent Producers and there is no Studio model I
01:09:43
think so absolutely I think so because a lot of people want that lifestyle you know what happens when you get rid of
01:09:48
distribution like it's not like we have to ask somebody for permission anymore it's not like the record labels where
01:09:53
you had to have distribu you had to go to Columbia Records if you were a Bob Dylan to be in a record store you you
01:09:59
you can just do it yeah well I think the question is the economic mode being can
01:10:04
you reinvest capital in creating high quality content because it's if that capital is invested well it builds an it
01:10:11
creates an audience so you give certain people money people will show up more money comes out yeah more money comes
01:10:17
out yeah so I mean you know some high points of Leverage would be getting a strategist who understands the YouTube
01:10:22
algorithm and can ensure that no matter what it is you're recording and how honest and truthful that is to your
01:10:28
instinct it's being presented in the best way for the algorithm we can repurpose clip what are the sections
01:10:34
that we're choosing so one thing that hasn't been spoken about today which is interesting on YouTube is timeliness so
01:10:39
YouTube is increasingly becoming where people go to find out their news so maybe you see something that Trends on
01:10:44
Twitter and you'll catch you know some clip of some kind yeah but then you quickly over to YouTube okay where's the
01:10:50
breakdown and you'll have seen to use Shapiro as a good example daily W I think it's called Ben after d or
01:10:55
something like that it's not been after dark it's been in his living room because Something's Happened today and
01:11:00
before he can get back into the studio tomorrow they need to get a video Trump gets shot today you need to do your
01:11:05
video today because people are going to be going and that's the hack to get to the top because we've had this issue
01:11:11
where we put out a show because we record Thursday mornings and it doesn't publish usually till Friday afternoon
01:11:17
something happens Thursday after we record and the show sucks literally no one watches it yeah no one will watch
01:11:22
the show that's not true every watches it but the volum go out 40% down like oh what
01:11:28
are we going to do it's Lally talking about 24-hour turnaround it's sorry that's stale that's old now that's right
01:11:35
which is crazy when you think about it I mean I think this is the the next great
01:11:39
opportunity will be somebody who just is sitting there go and has the ability to
01:11:43
go live at any time um this is what a lot of streaming is doing right you look at a Hassan ABI you look at Destiny you
01:11:48
look at a asman gold uh Charlie penguin zero uh all of these guys are doing it now yeah they're also playing you know
01:11:55
like video games too but they're commenting on a lot of culture and they crush on this not because they're insane
01:12:02
cultural commentators that are you know really deep in the research but because they're timely and they've usually got
01:12:07
some take it' be really fascinating if somebody with depth you know imagine if Sam Harris when some breaking news story
01:12:16
happened turned on his live stream and you're like oh my God we're now we've got Sam Harris commenting on this
01:12:22
assassination attempt or Etc and you see in sports I noticed Bill Simmons has started Whenever there is a major trade
01:12:29
when the Kyrie trade happened when the Luca donic trade happened he just goes emergency pod and I think they're really
01:12:37
starting to embrace it that is like a hack and I think that will become a thing I I often go to the live tab on
01:12:43
YouTube now just to see what they're talking about right um it's typ typically low quality but once in a
01:12:49
while somebody will do something in we talking about the relatability authenticity thing before y if somebody
01:12:55
is talking about a developing situation which happened 3 hours ago it has to be Rel
01:13:01
you haven't had time to become contrived totally you know what I mean totally yeah I think that's a big Point what
01:13:06
other content do you think is going to win going to continue to accelerate time and attention away from other forms of
01:13:14
content so the long form podcast conversation learn about the world with me are there other forms that are out
01:13:19
there that are interesting to you that formats that you think are new or emerging or that are real winners that
01:13:23
are I would continue to bet on substack I think and that style of blogging uh very frictionless you know it's enabling
01:13:31
writers to uh work out loud I think Jonathan height basically wrote his entire new book chapter by chapter
01:13:37
published it on his substack allowed feedack generation uh think there's another one about the Tower of Babel
01:13:42
thing which he's working on next yeah but yeah you just it's this uh seamless transparent door so writing I think has
01:13:48
got like just huge huge upside there I'm not too sure what we're going to see from short I'm aware that
01:13:55
algorithmically it's able to you know like get the bottom of your brain stem really well but you were talking about
01:14:00
this before it doesn't seem like Tik Tock creators are able to convert one Tik Tok sub is worth you know or a 100
01:14:09
Tik Tok Subs is maybe worth one YouTube sub correct and uh and 100 YouTubes are worth one email by the way it's a lot
01:14:16
it's a lot like having a cigarette like you need it but you don't want it you know you end up being like I'm not
01:14:23
really looking forward to that Tik Tok tonight you're not really sitting there at work being I can't wait to watch that
01:14:27
Tik Tok but you get home and you're like I need my Tik Tok but you do look forward to seeing this great new movie
01:14:32
that's coming out this weekend or the latest episode or latest episode you're like I want that I don't need it but I
01:14:38
want it and I think there's a big difference between that and I think that's where the short form really hits
01:14:43
the lyic system it doesn't actually activate the rest I think this is a form of addiction that's going to wind up
01:14:50
like MTV going away MTV and music videos we we all as G Gen X or I think you're on the tail end of Gen X or you're
01:14:57
Millennial Millennial Millennial like we kind of got addicted to it um and then it kind of went away as a format of just
01:15:04
sitting there and watching three minute videos and everybody thought our brains were getting scrambled because we were
01:15:09
watching the AHA video and then this said hold my beer yeah and Tik tok's like yeah wait one second 7 seconds and
01:15:16
and it I think it's [ __ ] with people's dopamine to a level that they don't understand and you do because you
01:15:21
you dip into this stuff and you have interest in it but you can't fire your serotonin and see the moment the most
01:15:29
exciting terrifying funny moment in every piece of media back to back to back oh dopamine addiction it just the
01:15:36
next day people are feeling hung over it's because they're [ __ ] with that dopamine receptors in their brain and
01:15:40
then they can't have a normal conversation they can't go to a normal dinner or have a conversation like this
01:15:45
or feel happy having a walk and a long talk I think this is one of the reasons why I wouldn't bet against the reading
01:15:49
thing I'm aware it's lyic way less hijacking but it feels like uh going to rehab for your dopamine system it's one
01:15:57
of the few things it's hard that you can only do it right you can watch a movie in double screen you can be listening to
01:16:03
a podcast while scrolling Instagram yeah you can you know you cannot read and do
01:16:08
anything else I'll tell you what I think might win um my personal point of view on this is I think that that content
01:16:14
will get turned into like um an AI chat experience I Jason makes fun of me about
01:16:20
this but I do sit in my car when I I do a lot of long drives now at my office like Santa Crews and the city I drive a
01:16:26
lot and I talk to chat GPT advanced voice but I'll talk about a topic and I'll like learn about it and I'll engage
01:16:33
with it and I'll kind of go back and forth but if I find if I flip on like a like a book on tape or something my
01:16:39
brain wanders off and I got questions and ideas and I'm like oh then I start thinking about it and I realize oh man
01:16:43
three minutes have gone by and so for me personally and maybe this is just the way I'm wired like I kind of like the
01:16:48
interactive model but I do think this great content like Jonathan Height's new book gets put out as kind of an
01:16:52
interactive mode where I get to go it starts telling me about it I can ask questions and I it's almost like I'm
01:16:57
having a conversation with the author that's we going back to the earlier Point like the cultural experience is
01:17:02
the the book written by the author but the way I experience it is going to be different than the way you experience it
01:17:06
in an AI world I would love to look at how people pay attention to a conversation between multiple people
01:17:12
like a podcast compared with an audio book and the author is trying their best to come across with bounds and energy
01:17:19
and engagement and stuff like that but really it's not and it's one person One Tone going through recorded very
01:17:27
carefully whereas when you've got stuff bouncing around even that author talking
01:17:31
about that book on a podcast why am I so much more engaged there's something about that which is more compelling so
01:17:37
it's the way humans are humans aren't designed to sit on the floor and be lectured to by another human humans are
01:17:44
designed to be social creatures to have engagement to have that process and I think that that's how it plates out in
01:17:49
our brain there's more of a responsive chemistry to that I'm excited for this pendulum to swing back and for people to
01:17:56
like read a book again or to watch a kurasala film in a the that's that's 100 right no I mean you can't watch a
01:18:04
Kurosawa film and not feel I'll tell you what you know I think for a lot of young
01:18:08
people they're missing out on some of like the great Beauty in life is to be able to give yourself over for two hours
01:18:14
to a Kurosawa film uh or to give yourself over to a book for an hour just but an hour and that's what we're going
01:18:22
to see I think in the coming years is people are going to look at this like they looked at junk food like they
01:18:26
looked at cigarettes and say this is not healthy for me you've seen that uh list
01:18:31
of five regrets of the dying it's things like I wish I'd allowed myself to be the
01:18:35
person I wanted to be not the person others expected of me I wish I'd worked less I wish I'd kept in touch with my
01:18:40
friends I would bet an awfully large amount of money that one of them in starting about 30 years time is going to
01:18:48
be I wish I spent less time on my phone yeah and that's going to be I wish I deleted Tik Tok great Point by the way
01:18:53
we're going to continue the conversation guys join us thanking Chris and we're going to invite the rest of the crew
01:18:57
back out oh yeah come on out everybody ran come on up here's my friend Brian Johnson come on up to you
01:19:05
too can we get him a microphone or something um will you introduce Brian uh yeah Brian Johnson um created a
01:19:14
payments company he was on this week in startups years ago and then I looked up and he um was sharing his nighttime
01:19:21
erections on social media it's 3 hours and 12 minutes yes 3 hours and 12 minutes we we just Ryan you're
01:19:30
you're Kardashian famous now yeah yeah oh really you were on the Kardashians yeah uh last week's episode you were on
01:19:37
last week's episode and um who was uh you hanging out with Kim or which Khloe this Andrew hubman who was the star of
01:19:46
the show who was Andrew hubman and Brian that was my trump zinsky moment you two
01:19:50
in a room I'm aware oh is this like East Coast West Coast it's like CRI and bloods you guys
01:19:56
get along or is he we do get along yeah we're friends you're friends yeah okay what do you do together like the two of
01:20:02
you a secret I mean do you guys exchange blood what's the trans sus all in that I they do lab
01:20:11
tests they do lab tests on a Saturday morning Spotify move to video I think that's an interesting one to talk about
01:20:16
that's something people aren't really sort of factoring in because you turn what was an audio platform into is this
01:20:21
audio is this video now there's trailers that you can see as well and they are paying creators a uh pretty penny so we
01:20:29
were a part of the partner program for January and February and we made more money from them with only 10% of our
01:20:38
catalog uploaded than the entirety of our YouTube AdSense so they are throwing they're throwing everything at it to try
01:20:44
and take you do we don't uhhuh and we're working on it yeah but we're working on
01:20:49
it but I think also like there's um I think in all these platforms when they when they announce a new monetization
01:20:55
model they need model citizens and I think Chris like your show is a model citizen for Spotify like they've put you
01:21:02
on billboards they're they're definitely going like hey Golden Child yeah modern
01:21:05
wisdom is the show you want to be on Spotify it's video it looks beautiful it uploads quite a bit it has a big back
01:21:12
catalog so I think um I think it's a really interesting model to me it feels experimental I think if it works it's
01:21:18
great share of Premium subscription revenue is awesome Ryan are you going to be able to be within the vicinity of
01:21:24
that passive smoke I imagine this is you're going to be counting down how many minutes it's going to knock off
01:21:28
your life Jason what is this um that's a pente it's a nice SC you can just chew on it what's going to happen if I chew
01:21:35
on it you're going to get a little nicotine hit and um you're going to enjoy life for the first time in three
01:21:43
years goe I don't know I don't know if this fits in the protocol I mean just Che it come on like this see what I'm
01:21:49
doing here all right should I do it wait hold on before you before you say something
01:21:55
don't die is in your hands do I chew on it no yes yes give give that was a very clear response it's either that or you
01:22:05
got to do Chris's ketamine it's one or the other which one are you do which one CHR you do ketamine yeah we'll do it
01:22:11
backstage come I'm an ex club promoter I do everything yeah hey do you want the cigar uh I'm okay thank you you did C
01:22:18
aine recently didn't you Brian I did yeah I used uh so we we did we built a brain interface at my company colonel we
01:22:24
were trying to build wearable fmri and we had this question what happens when you know there's like when you take an
01:22:29
SSRI or when you take ketamine and so yeah I did a um a dose intramuscular dose and we measured my brain 30 days
01:22:36
before the ketamine during ketamine and then for was an injection you snorted or
01:22:41
you did the spr injection we did the max FDA lad Mount and what was cool is we saw you just did it on yourself you're
01:22:46
like I'm just going to max out right just like no we had an IRB we had it approved ethically and what we saw so
01:22:52
sorry just real quick have you done k before this no first time so you're just chilling you're like I'm going to max
01:22:57
out on ketamine I just want to make sure I really get this like I want to get your mindset we wanted to see the effect
01:23:03
you so like we had when you say we you know there just you right like well okay so we spent six years building this
01:23:09
brain interface we built a custom Asic we we like pushed it through Co like it was like an all-in effort you don't have
01:23:16
like an intern or 23y old analyst or something to be maed out on C me like well I was also doing blueprint so I was
01:23:22
like you know this is interesting like what what actually happens to the brain when and so like you think about so so
01:23:28
you put this helmet on your head and think of your brain like uh a globe it has airports all around you see traffic
01:23:33
like New York to Tokyo and so my patterns were very fixed in that 30 Days running up to ketamine and then I did
01:23:38
ketamine and it just scrambles your brain like all the traffic patterns are just remixed and then uh two or three
01:23:45
days afterwards it it drops so now you're like a openminded to new patterns and then days three four five you come
01:23:51
up to your old patterns again so that's why it makes sense that there's this therapeutic window where if you do a
01:23:55
psychedelic you're open to new ideas and doing things yeah but so like there was
01:24:00
on the second day I was in the office and we were walking in between meetings we have these big walls and I thought
01:24:04
why don't I just jump over that wall like why am I going to take this long route I just jumped over the wall not
01:24:08
thinking about it like Brian what are you doing jumping over a wall but it just I did really behave uh differently
01:24:15
and I had the way I thought the way I behaved I couldn't really see my patterns very well but because we were
01:24:19
all watching it so closely but it was cool now we have the ability to say what happens when anything but you could have
01:24:25
done gotten that information without doing that like well no no I think what you're referring to is you know this
01:24:33
phenomenon where uh it kind of rrags your your your hard drive a bit and you disconnect from reality have did you
01:24:40
disassociate a bit did you see yourself outside of your own body did you see like you're here and Brian Johnson's
01:24:46
here and then there's a universe and then you go past the universe and you're in that space that's outside the
01:24:49
universe how much have you done same same place same trip same place yeah I've been there um it's pretty great
01:24:55
sorry Brian let me let me just so there have been a lot of studies on um this kind of neural plasticity that arises
01:25:01
when you take these you get like maximal neuroplastic like basically the neurons
01:25:05
are out searching for new connections it really kind of activates those cells to
01:25:09
go hunting and people get rewired that's why trauma can get rewired out of your brain and you can learn new stuff and
01:25:15
develop new experiences but it can also have profound changes on people's psychology motivations other sort of
01:25:21
factors have you noticed any of that kind of residual effect motivation Chang point of view has changed personalities
01:25:27
are different relationships or people like you're different you're X Y or Z you're not Brian where that's kind of
01:25:32
affected you in a way it was only one time so I didn't notice anything in particular it was really that that acute
01:25:37
like two or three window I think if I would have paired some therapy in there I probably could have done something
01:25:41
meaningful but I didn't like I we just were really looking at the quantitative measurements but yeah I mean it really
01:25:46
you're right like it scrambles the brain it was cool to see it because before this nobody had ever seen ketamine on
01:25:51
the brain you don't see the patterns that are in place you don't see what's scrambled you don't see when they reform
01:25:57
and like you can take these patterns think of like a 96 by 96 grid you can use these patterns to assess
01:26:02
intelligence emotions character traits like it's very informative and so these things when you uh assess and you
01:26:09
reassemble you really can induce a lot of you infer a lot of things about the person yeah I mean we're joking about it
01:26:14
here but um you know I have uh some friends who have spent a great deal of time money and effort on um the maps
01:26:23
project Tim Ferris a number of my friends have um really worked on this in a clinical
01:26:29
session and setting and it can have a profound impact on PTSD on relationships on trauma but I just want to give people
01:26:39
like a caveat here that these are extremely powerful modalities and you need to do them in the proper setting
01:26:46
the set the setting the dose are all extremely important but people with PTSD you know are coming out of you know know
01:26:54
911 my brother's a firefighter a lot of firefighters in New York and First Responders uh you know they haven't
01:27:00
gotten over it and and they've gone to some of these um sessions and they've come out of it and they and they' found
01:27:06
peace and it can process you know what can't be done in a hundred sessions of psychotherapy can get processed in two
01:27:13
or three of these sessions I think it's very important that we we take it seriously um even though some people are
01:27:19
doing it at Burning Man and having fun with it I get it people want to do that a dependency risk with katamine that
01:27:25
there isn't with a lot of the other substances that you can use too this is the problem is and it's interesting my
01:27:31
my friend Tony Shay passed and he uh got addicted to camine specifically and it it disassociated him and that's the
01:27:38
problem with the recreational use or the use alone Chris there's a lot of very you know notable CEOs I know friends who
01:27:46
have gotten into it and they've had good intention and then maybe they're at home
01:27:51
watching Netflix or YouTube and they are doing it out of boredom and that's where
01:27:57
it gets very pricious and I just be careful can we go back just to the content creator piece Brian I mean you
01:28:04
basically um started talking about don't die and you've created quite a bit of content around this what's the model for
01:28:12
building a business where you did you actively think hey I got to build an audience to get this effort to be
01:28:18
successful yeah no we actually didn't uh so Kate my co-founder is here with me we
01:28:22
we were posing the question um we thought it's a cool question to ask are we the first generation who won't die
01:28:29
you know it's kind of like in in 1870 you're back in there you hear in town people are like hey there's this new
01:28:35
weird idea there's this guy saying that there's these microscopic objects they're called bacteria or something
01:28:40
like that they cause infection they lead to death and then others are like that's
01:28:44
stupid as [ __ ] because really it's just you know it's bad spirits we know that's
01:28:47
causing the situation and so if you're getting into surgery you really care to know is this a correct idea or incorrect
01:28:53
idea and turns out bacteria are real they actually cause infection they can lead
01:28:58
to death and I think the parallel here for us right now is like are we legit the first generation who won't die and
01:29:04
so that was our our effort just actually scientifically go doing that and then uh
01:29:08
someone did a Twitter thread on this and it just went viral like 50 million views
01:29:12
and we're like what the you know what's going on this tsunami of hate came our way and it was just like there's so much
01:29:19
raw energy under this topic we didn't know that was the case and so yeah we've just been trying to basically take
01:29:24
people along the Journey of like this is what we're doing so content should been
01:29:28
like a um an afterthought to a primary Mission and now it's a primary modality for us
01:29:34
to go after this and you productized it I I came home my wife was I was joking about the Nutty pudding it's I mean it's
01:29:42
not my favorite but it's healthy and I've had it a couple times I eat it and my wife's got the whole cupboard filled
01:29:46
with blueprint stuff I was told the whisper numberers over $100 million in sales yeah we'll be we'll be $100
01:29:53
million unless in 12 months and so but the but the goal was not to make money it was like it so it went viral and
01:29:58
people were like I love this I want to do it but it's so damn hard right you have to like Source all this stuff and
01:30:04
we had learned ourselves that when we Source things that most labels are incorrect most things are toxic and
01:30:09
there like a disaster out there so we started sourcing our own stuff and so like well why do we why don't we just
01:30:14
package this up like cpg sucks it's the worst business in the world so we were legit like do the world solid like make
01:30:21
this available like we've worked so hard to make this available and it's impossible to do unless you're all you
01:30:26
losing money or you make it just a very modest profit margin very yeah so we're almost basically break even got it so
01:30:31
it's a for break even not a four not a nonprofit and Chris you're you're drinking this new category of Beverage
01:30:36
you created maybe you could talk a little bit about your intent with your product yeah I think one of the easiest
01:30:41
hacks can we get a couple of these out here I want to drink I'm losing my energy thank you uh I think go Jonathan
01:30:46
one of the easiest hacks that you can do if you want to be successful in cpg is take something that people are already
01:30:51
consuming Source it better improve the formula and then put it back out right you know a better for you dot dot dot a
01:30:58
better for you pair of underwear a better for you chocolate bar a better for you hydration drink so we made a
01:31:02
better few energy drink so evidence-based research backed neut Tropic ingredients efficacious doses
01:31:07
blah blah blah and we bootstrapped it and I got to build it from the ground floor up and create the brand and come
01:31:12
up with the copy the shoots and everything else and uh and I love it and now we've got to the stage where some
01:31:17
really big players are sniffing around and we've only been in the market for 18 months are you guys going to do a cpg
01:31:22
business it's kind of the trend is your what would you do what what are you going to do I mean we're a little bit
01:31:28
different in that like our value prop is uh Creator education so we try and think
01:31:31
like what is an extension of our value prop and for us you know digital Goods courses that's like a direct extension
01:31:36
so that's what we have as much as Brian is a content creator I will say like I came across Brian's content I was
01:31:42
marginally interested kind of like you know confused by it then got invited to one of his dinners and and I really
01:31:47
commend you for doing the dinners because I think the dinners like it's very unscalable but it actually creates
01:31:53
lot of scale and people come to those dinners like me I've been talking about that dinner for I don't know when that
01:31:58
was six seven months ago and telling a lot of people about it and it was a very impactful event and I think actually
01:32:03
like the creators today who are doing things like this getting people together physically uh uh last week when we were
01:32:10
here there's a Creator named Jake Shane sold out the Moody Center it was about 3,000 people he he started as a Tik Tok
01:32:15
Creator up there for an hour and a half by himself doing comedy amazing and it's
01:32:19
amazing and I think like getting people together and actually having like face Toof face impact that's where I think
01:32:26
you can build a product like you know how we was saying it's going to be lovely if there's a a counter movement
01:32:30
against the Tik Tock ification very short form video I do get the sense that uh coffee and chill do you know what
01:32:37
that is if you heard of coffee and chill uh or mushroom Cowboy these are daytime
01:32:40
sober R oh I saw this on Tik Tok yeah so Parx you know a couple of hours on a Saturday or a Sunday from 10:00 a.m. or
01:32:46
midday or something like that and uh I think that what we're seeing is the equivalent here of the work from
01:32:52
anywhere digital Nomad degenerate wake up whenever you want fuel yourself with caffeine and get back get to work and
01:32:59
this is the backlash against that which is people are desperate for in-person events they're desperate for stuff like
01:33:04
this and it's not just this you think about any conference you've ever been to the speakers cool whatever they're the
01:33:10
headliners you go to see but what you're really there for are the conversations in the foyer in between the different
01:33:16
events I got to say like the higher the higher the barrier sometimes the bigger the fan right like your episodes are 3
01:33:21
hours long that's a pretty big barrier like you get to the end you're invested like you're a fan of you guys I think
01:33:26
the same thing with events right like there are Brands and creators now that are starting with events oh I think it
01:33:31
makes so much sense me think about like you give up your um your form of social engagement in a kind of free way not a
01:33:39
structured way as soon as you're done with college and then you're at the workplace and at the workplace if you're
01:33:44
working in an office it's like you got the thing to do and you're done then you go like where else do you have this kind
01:33:48
of social engagement at scale they also pre-selecting you know as you say if it's a a three-hour long podcast it's a
01:33:55
really Niche topic you know it's a particular series of Warhammer 40K that not many people know about or it's some
01:34:01
weird Japanese anime like you are pre-selecting for people like you assuming that you're interested in it
01:34:06
this is why Reddit is so good right it's Reddit is a website filled with people who couldn't find others to have that
01:34:13
discussion with in their Hometown right true that's very true it's very true well you know I just want to point out
01:34:18
with these cpg products the the creators who are making them like when you two gentlemen make something or saak is
01:34:26
making this all in tequila or where's my super gut bars and he has super gut which is fantastic the the peanut butter
01:34:33
one is pretty good um you know that freeberg is not making super gut or you're not making blueprint
01:34:39
or you're not making tonic new tonic you're not doing it because you want to maximize profitability you want to be
01:34:48
proud of it you want to know that the person buying it had a great EXP and it was good for them right bu was a hole
01:34:56
that didn't exist and the other thing which I'm sure you guys have have sensed as well the online course is the best
01:35:02
way if you want to the margins are amazing the scale is just fantastic but you never get to see someone holding
01:35:08
your course if you get to see you do if you do it as cohorts which we which we have done uh you do get to see them
01:35:16
digitally and now our you know our idea is to actually go hey can we take that and have that be also entry into a live
01:35:24
Workshop or live session that's gonna Crush perilously close to like the Creator Tony Robins I can see you on
01:35:30
stage I'll I'll make I'll make a bet right now that'll make you guys more money than anything else combined yeah I
01:35:34
think that's by far your your question that you asked before was like how does that compare like right now the reality
01:35:39
is like in a single check a brand deal you know makes more money when it's one client but as what we're what we're
01:35:45
watching right now in the course business is like you know a hundred people on an $800 product is significant
01:35:52
a th000 people gets even more significant cuz you guys will sell tickets to the live event but the
01:35:57
sponsors to get that targeted audience in a captive way will pay you more than they'll pay for the online that's what
01:36:02
you guys also think about the value prop for you know people go to school they go
01:36:06
$50,000 $250,000 in debt and then what I hear from young people all the time is they go take a course afterwards and
01:36:14
that course for $800 does more from them in the market place and getting jobs than the degree did and I think this
01:36:22
roll your own education is very similar to function Health in in a way which is like I'm going to take
01:36:28
control of it I'm not going to have an MD direct My Healthcare I'm going to get my blood work myself I'm going to do my
01:36:35
research I'm going to go on chat chpt or Gro or whatever I'm going to ask about peptides I'm going to ask about this I'm
01:36:39
going to cross reference it I'm going to listen to your podcast or huberman you know whatever and I think that this
01:36:46
self- riancy and this new category of products and services that are available it kind of resets this IND rization that
01:36:54
occurred I'm sure Proctor and Gamble and some of these things didn't start out with the evil intent that is now in
01:37:00
their product and in their system you got to cut that out well I don't give a [ __ ] I'm noton Proctor give a [ __ ] the
01:37:07
pry die ining kid cereal gam them and their cereals Mills can go they're a bad guys I don't give a
01:37:18
[ __ ] about their sponsorship seriously I guarantee you're using Proctor gamble toothpaste in about
01:37:23
three hour no no no I got that Tom My Wife puts me on all this [ __ ] I'm telling you they literally are putting
01:37:31
dye in children's cereal they're putting corn syrup in children's cereal they're
01:37:35
poisoning the [ __ ] country to make an extra two three four or five cents what the what's the word you used you were
01:37:41
talking about the word England you use the c word ah yes so I agree Jason guys right so we can cut it but I agree um
01:37:53
but I mean so we just launched a new Endeavor called Don't Die certified and we're testing foods go oh yeah let's go
01:38:00
baby foods Pet Foods uh all packaged foods and we got the early results back you got the receipts we do and so yeah
01:38:08
how bad is it worse worse than you think yeah sorry what did you test Brian what
01:38:12
did you test D did yeah uh so we're doing heavy metals heavy metals you them we're doing glycate some other
01:38:19
agrochemicals and then maybe a a few F what's the worst product you got so far so we okay uh we got results back from
01:38:27
have you done any fights have you done Plastics or is that separ yes we're doing that too so we'll probably have it
01:38:32
later there's less evidence around that yeah but yes like the cool model we're doing is if you can you find your food
01:38:36
go to the website we'll launch this next week yeah find your find your food and say I want this tested so you can then
01:38:41
put up the money if you get enough money so it what does that cost three or four
01:38:45
grand no like 500 bucks what wow doing crowdfunding other people that also eat that thing from sweet green can like I
01:38:53
want to know if it's got loads of Plastics in it exactly so then the test gets triggered results come back and
01:38:57
then we go to the brand and we say hey come claim your product so they then come back and we say all right now you
01:39:03
pay back the people who funded your tests like you should have been testing in the first place so they're doing the
01:39:08
work for you so we want us we want to do the food oh in the US we want to test 20% of foods that make up 80% of the US
01:39:14
diet so then we can say on average the average American consumes blank you know Mercury per day or cadum or whatever so
01:39:21
we tested a few of the things we looked at diapers um there was a dangerously high level of
01:39:26
glycate in diapers with the cotton uh cotton exactly Round Up ready cotton exactly and then we also tested
01:39:33
tampons brand High heavy metals which brands heavy metals call them out right now we can't yet so we we are okay we
01:39:41
got the test soon exactly so we're going to work reveal the first few ones but uh
01:39:44
dog food was really bad which makes sense dogss have been living you know their shorter lives now but yeah once
01:39:50
you start seeing this it's really uh pretty have you guys checked out plastic list.org do you see that n oh yeah
01:39:56
that's another Rich dude spending his money intelligently I love it no I me but I look this hold on a second this
01:40:04
guy I don't it's all I know it's super hyperbolic but like just the plastic thing it's really important to note they
01:40:10
they rank things but you also have to look at the absolute numbers this is where this can get a little too carried
01:40:16
away I I think that there's a lot of shocking [ __ ] in there that's super bad but you've also got to recognize that a
01:40:22
tiny amount that's like one one trillionth of something that could ever affect your body they'll flush out may
01:40:27
not be that bad so we've got to be really cognizant on how we interpret this stuff these [ __ ] knew a
01:40:32
whole time they were doing it they knew who's they were these the industrial third of aonic and you got
01:40:41
fired up thank you this great this is a great no I'm telling you I'm so I have I
01:40:48
am so furied about this because these people you know it's true you know it's true they they knew they were doing this
01:40:56
and it takes some rich guy who's bored and principled no offense I love you you know I love you and the who's the guy
01:41:04
who's doing the plasticor Zach um not Freeman oh not Freeman sorry another Rich internet guy he's like you know
01:41:11
what I'm bored these guys are screwing people over I'm going to test Plastics Annie hary turns up with 400,000
01:41:16
signatures outside of Kellogg's HQ and says you makeing the same Factory the Canadian version which uses betr
01:41:23
coloring and and and carrot coloring to make it and the exact same Factory is throwing red 40 and yeah like to get the
01:41:31
back Jason on this so Gerber so there's a law passing by California that said baby food providers have to disclose
01:41:36
heavy metals in their Foods so it went into effect January 1 and so we go to Gerber's website where all Heavy medals
01:41:42
uh yeah I think the four four big and so it's like okay so we go to G's website I
01:41:46
can't find heavy metals results anywhere and then I realized my vpn's on and I'm
01:41:51
coming from a server outside of uh California they've IP blocked no way to yep California only IP origination and
01:41:59
they hide it and so this is what I'm saying these companies like these are nefarious it's really not not good I
01:42:05
mean what do you think of uh Bobby Kennedy friend of the Pod and you know uh him taking this on for Maha I don't
01:42:12
want to make it political but how do we get to this happen freeberg this is the good
01:42:18
[ __ ] man this is the good [ __ ] like yeah they love it man this is this is the this is how all works we take
01:42:26
little detours we take detours this is a side quest worth taking give me one of your nicotine
01:42:34
drinks J B there's others there's others in the other Green Room there's some in
01:42:38
the other Green Room okay I'm okay I did I did a lot of drugs earli what do you think of Bobby Kennedy I I think he is
01:42:46
going to challenge status quo power and I think that's going to create a lot of conflict and a lot of reconfigurations I
01:42:51
think it'll refrag like the ref there's a lot look the thing there's a lot of really important questions being asked
01:42:57
that are not asked in the way that they that they're being asked now that's the most important thing is the system needs
01:43:02
to be challenged and whatever's left will get hardened and whatever shouldn't be there will get blasted away and
01:43:08
that's it but you got to name and shame the thing that really pisses me off you got to name and shame in order for them
01:43:14
to do what's right that's what's so [ __ ] up they want to do want to do you want to do any of the amas or I mean I
01:43:22
don't know felt like this was going in a nice Direction I enjoyed the I got I got to
01:43:27
do the conversation I find enjoyable just see if there's any cool amas if people ask these questions I've got a
01:43:31
question for Brian in the meantime I'll look for a good question sure Brian if you were to without someone having to
01:43:36
completely decimate their entire diet and never look at meat again what would you say is sort of top triaged Lifestyle
01:43:44
Changes most people should look at making uh based on what it is that you guys have looked at yeah I mean the
01:43:49
power lws are so clear sleep is like by far away the biggest power law uh then exercise number two diet number three
01:43:57
and so it's just being consistent on those three things and once you get those two those three layers you can go
01:44:00
down other layers but like what we've tried to do is we tried to say anything which increases my speed of Aging is a
01:44:07
form of die so how do you eliminate that and then we just started with the power
01:44:10
law so I start with zero all the way down and just yeah top three things for Sleep uh so the the thing you want to do
01:44:17
is you want to lower so the key marker is lowering your resting heart rate before bed is the number I'd say if you
01:44:24
could Mark if you could optimize one marker in your entire life it's that so before you go to bed tonight look at a
01:44:29
wearable or take your pulse it's your resting heart rate so tonight let's just say you're at 55 so your goal of the
01:44:35
next week or two is to try to get down to 50 the next month 45 and as you do that so the way you drive it down is you
01:44:41
have your final meal of the day at least two hours before bedtime so if you go to
01:44:44
bed at 10: be done at 8 and then push it back an hour gu like 30 minutes each day
01:44:50
and as you push it back more uh every day your heart rate is going to go down incrementally because your body has more
01:44:55
time to digest so then you also find that food you eat like if you eat a big pasta or or um pizza or something it
01:45:02
will jack up the heart rate so mine right now is 44 beats per minute so if I eat late in the day if my last meal of
01:45:07
the day is at noon and I did that after like a few hundred experiments of like what optimizes my resting heart rate if
01:45:13
I have a big meal like a five or six I'll be up like low 50s and that will take away about 30 to 40% of my sleep so
01:45:19
you go to sleep super hungry actually I'm okay yeah my body is really adapted so food is really a big one and then two
01:45:25
is wind down routine so you need to calm yourself down you can't have your phone
01:45:28
up you need to turn it off give yourself like 30 to 60 Minutes decompressed in the day CU leave leave your kids in the
01:45:34
house and go sleep in the garage yeah uh no no warm shower that that could help and actually a book in hand has uh
01:45:43
probably the best evidence yeah so it's what Chris was saying right it's like you can't do anything so screen off book
01:45:48
in hand spend even 10 minutes and you'll be amazed at how much it'll calm you down
01:45:53
yeah there's some cool stuff around people thought it was the blue light from screens that were impacting
01:45:57
melatonin release and cortisol and stuff as you went to sleep it seems like it's
01:46:01
much more what you're interacting with on the phone that you're so engaged that dopamine's firing you're probably
01:46:06
getting riled up about you sending stuff to friends it's triggering all of these
01:46:10
ideas in you as opposed to if you just sit down and read Red Rising or something by PS Brown and you go off to
01:46:15
sleep dreaming about being it exactly and you and you can measure it by how much your heart rate goes up or down so
01:46:20
you now have a quantitative Benchmark every single day you could pck that those habits uh regularity versus
01:46:26
duration what's more important uh consistency is so important because your body tells time like a clock like when I
01:46:32
was I did eight months of perfect sleep 100% sleep every night to show I could do high quality sleep you tracking on
01:46:37
whoop or you tracking on yeah and they they tend to are pretty close no oh yeah I mean like they're all
01:46:45
they're all relative comparisons they're not absolute so just stick find one they're all fine yeah this is the been
01:46:53
the big unlock for me I am now sleeping I got a 94 last night I got a 99 two nights ago it's my highest score ever
01:46:59
I'm I'm really dying in the sleep and has changed everything for me it's the biggest life Improvement you can do
01:47:07
period it's the best in performance Hing drug it is like it is just better than anything on Market but like be
01:47:12
consistent because your deep sleep window happens in the first two hours of night and so that's when the the garbage
01:47:18
trash collector comes through to pick up all the trash in your body if you miss that window you miss it so you missed
01:47:23
the garbage trash collection so that's why pick your bedtime and be consistent otherwise you get junk
01:47:30
accumulation on the inverse of that I have a six week old baby so I have like the least consistent sleep right now how
01:47:37
long can I Endure that I'll tell you two things that also worked for me because I sometimes sleep
01:47:43
with my bulldog and that was killing it but I got these um nice uh headphones and um I'll listen to some uh really
01:47:52
high High Fidelity sleep music uh and use an eye mask and both of those added a couple of points and that was really a
01:47:58
good unlock for me how about how you sleeping Chris yeah pretty good pretty good thank you yeah audio book as I go
01:48:03
to sleep turn that off and uh you've probably got a problem with the ionizing radiation nonionizing radiation you
01:48:09
bothered about Bluetooth headphones Brian uh no oh that's good that's the first thing I've proposed to you that
01:48:15
I'm still allowed to do in my life everything else is like the fun police that comes in and tells me everything's
01:48:20
the die police I guess yeah I'm actually I'm actually the happy police right like
01:48:24
the [ __ ] I say it makes you happy people they have this misconception that like
01:48:28
staying up late and missing bedtime and drinking is happy it's not it is sad it makes you depressed and we have to be
01:48:35
honest like we think it's happy it's not well listen thank you to all of our guests and you know you're very busy I
01:48:40
really appreciate you coming here I know that you've been busy and congratulations on the big win for no
01:48:44
foru um that was great that's an Oscar's reference thank you to the people who got it but
01:48:50
seriously are you worried because I I mean yeah I are you sure what you're doing like this extreme is a good
01:48:59
idea I'm I'm a little concerned you might be turning into a vampire I don't know you are doing the blood transfusion
01:49:06
yeah you know I did it because my dad was experiencing cognitive decline and he called and he called me in a panic
01:49:12
and he said I will do anything to save my my Consciousness and so I did it for him so the headlines was all about my
01:49:17
son and my and and my me but well you did a transfusion with your dad yeah that was a after doing it with your son
01:49:23
yeah so I pre generational yeah so my dad called me he's like okay I'm experiencing C so he was writing
01:49:28
something for work he walked away and he came back and it was a jumbled mess and
01:49:32
he's like I'm experiencing cognitive decline and I can't see it he said when I thought I would start like forgetting
01:49:38
names or like missing keys but like right there in front of me I didn't see the jumble mess so he called me he's
01:49:43
like I'm panicking and so I was like Dad we're actually looking at this new evidence on these plasma infusions I'm
01:49:48
happy to give you a plasma if you you want to try it like we don't know if it's going to work or not so then my son
01:49:53
heard and he's like I'm in like we'll do a tri generational thing like great it's
01:49:57
a family activity is there any empirical evidence of this yes this is we we should talk about this another time but
01:50:03
this is there's a lot of good work on this this you think that this is a path work pursuing this is I mean it's longer
01:50:09
conversation Chris what are you doing after you want to do some transfuse I'm doing cing with
01:50:14
Brian okay can we transfuse as