00:00:00
this is Sax's big day there he is oh
00:00:03
there's T oh look at the smile on Sax's
00:00:05
face this is the greatest day in the
00:00:07
history of the all in look at how happy
00:00:10
s
00:00:13
is s by the way I'm I'm not ashamed of
00:00:16
that come on I'm honored oh wa
00:00:21
s getting this heated up quickly how
00:00:24
threatened do you feel right now this is
00:00:26
the highest rated host in in cable
00:00:28
history this is the world's true
00:00:30
greatest moderator exactly yeah no doubt
00:00:32
no doubt absolutely Zach where is this
00:00:34
in relation to your marriage and the
00:00:35
birth of your children don't ask it's
00:00:38
right up there up there he's like what
00:00:40
children it is for
00:00:43
me let your winners
00:00:45
[Music]
00:00:46
ride
00:00:50
David and instead we open source it to
00:00:52
the fans and they've just gone
00:00:54
[Music]
00:00:58
crazy all right everybody we've got got
00:01:00
an amazing guest for you today here on
00:01:03
the Allin podcast Sachs his dream has
00:01:06
come true Tucker Carlson is with us
00:01:07
today you know Tucker he was the number
00:01:09
one TV host for much of the past decade
00:01:12
including last year when shockingly he
00:01:15
was fired from Fox News on April 24th
00:01:18
reason for the firing it's never been
00:01:20
pinned down but maybe we'll get into it
00:01:22
today and we're going to find out what
00:01:24
is motivating a post Fox News Tucker who
00:01:28
has obviously launched show on X the
00:01:31
platform formerly known as Twitter he's
00:01:33
done 42 episodes and Counting he's had
00:01:37
everybody from Donald Trump Andrew Tate
00:01:40
Dave
00:01:40
pory and the newly elected president of
00:01:44
Argentina on the program so welcome to
00:01:47
the all-in podcast Tucker
00:01:50
Carlson thank you for having me it is it
00:01:53
is a legit honor to be here two-part
00:01:56
question to kick us off here first have
00:01:58
you figured out why you were fired from
00:02:00
Fox and let's get into that a bit and
00:02:04
second given that you were the number
00:02:06
one host from for much of the past
00:02:08
decade and I think probably in the top
00:02:10
five highest paid of all time what's
00:02:13
motivating you now what's the mission
00:02:15
here as an independent journalist take
00:02:17
those two questions in whichever order
00:02:19
you like I I don't know why I was fired
00:02:21
I mean it kind of is an Agatha Christie
00:02:22
story there are like so many suspects
00:02:24
you know what I mean um but I I don't
00:02:27
know I was never told I can only
00:02:28
speculate there were lot of different
00:02:30
things going on I had a lot of opinions
00:02:32
that were
00:02:33
unpopular you know with people who might
00:02:36
have influenced my show getting canceled
00:02:38
so I I I really don't know I will say
00:02:41
you know right after it happened people
00:02:43
said well how can they fire the top Guy
00:02:45
and because that's what it is I'm
00:02:48
certainly not the first high-rated host
00:02:50
to get fired it's not only about ratings
00:02:53
there a lot of different factors it's a
00:02:55
big company you all have worked for and
00:02:57
run big companies and you know it's
00:02:59
there's a lot of complicated stuff going
00:03:00
on and um and it's never exactly clear
00:03:04
you know why things happen the way they
00:03:05
do but I was not shocked by it I mean I
00:03:07
was shocked by it in a short term sense
00:03:08
I didn't expect to have my show canceled
00:03:10
that morning but um but I was not
00:03:12
shocked at all uh when I thought about
00:03:15
it for a minute I'd expected that you
00:03:17
know you can't kind of give the finger
00:03:19
to
00:03:20
everybody um and persist in a in a
00:03:23
corporate job so I no hard feelings I
00:03:25
and I and in fact I said that on the
00:03:27
call when I received the news it's it's
00:03:28
not my company
00:03:30
and I never felt like I had a right to
00:03:32
be on the air I was I was working at the
00:03:34
pleasure of the family that runs the
00:03:36
company who treated me very well and and
00:03:38
um and they wanted me off and so I was
00:03:40
off did you ever have moments where
00:03:42
somebody Taps you on the shoulder and
00:03:44
says Advertiser XYZ is getting
00:03:47
uncomfortable or we're trying to lend
00:03:50
this new Advertiser and right they want
00:03:52
you to shape things in one re did you
00:03:54
ever feel that pressure is that or is
00:03:55
that just a thing that is kind of like a
00:03:58
boogeyman that doesn't actually exist oh
00:04:00
it well it it not only exists it defines
00:04:01
news coverage especially on Pharma you
00:04:04
know because Pharma is the biggest
00:04:05
Advertiser in television as I know you
00:04:07
know and so for sure I mean if you know
00:04:10
fizer is sponsoring your show you're not
00:04:11
going to question the V I mean it's kind
00:04:12
of that simple uh so absolutely and of
00:04:15
course that's why they're the biggest
00:04:17
advertisers so they can shape news
00:04:18
coverage I mean that's that's the point
00:04:21
but um I personally never had a single
00:04:23
person say to me don't say this that I
00:04:26
recall I haven't thought about it too
00:04:27
much but that certainly I was there 14
00:04:28
years and I I didn't have that
00:04:30
experience
00:04:31
regularly or at all really that I can
00:04:34
remember and and I think you know my
00:04:36
producers may have been told that but it
00:04:38
it didn't ever get to me because I was
00:04:40
always really clear which is I I always
00:04:42
said out loud to the supervisors there
00:04:46
you know I work for your company I don't
00:04:48
own this network all I can control is
00:04:51
what I say if you don't like what I say
00:04:53
don't have me on TV but as long as I'm
00:04:55
on TV I'm going to say what I think is
00:04:57
true and in a million cas cases I said
00:05:00
only part of what I think not because of
00:05:02
my employer but just because you
00:05:04
shouldn't actually say everything you
00:05:05
think I mean I have some crackpot views
00:05:06
too or I have resentments that I didn't
00:05:09
want to work out on the air I mean I did
00:05:10
you know you're strain yourself and you
00:05:11
want to as you do in your personal life
00:05:14
but on no question of principle did I
00:05:16
ever pull back because I just I wouldn't
00:05:19
do that and again I was just super clear
00:05:20
if you don't like what I'm saying take
00:05:22
me off the air but I'm not going to you
00:05:24
know tow a line and because I was so
00:05:26
clear about that I I just think they
00:05:27
didn't think it was worth having some
00:05:30
kind of dispute with me and to their
00:05:31
great credit for the time that I was
00:05:34
there and I said this many times in
00:05:35
public like I took positions on the
00:05:37
Ukraine war on the covid vaccine on the
00:05:40
co lockdowns among other issues that I
00:05:43
think you know I've been V Vindicated on
00:05:46
pretty conclusively on the origins of Co
00:05:48
and all of those were super unpopular on
00:05:50
January 6th which was so hated at the
00:05:54
company where I worked that people a
00:05:55
number of people including on air people
00:05:57
four that I can think of resigned in
00:05:59
protest test over my over me suggesting
00:06:02
that actually was more complicated than
00:06:04
it looked and there were a bunch of
00:06:05
federal agents in the crowd how can you
00:06:07
say that are you claiming a false flag
00:06:09
well no not I wouldn't use that phrase
00:06:11
but like this is something weird going
00:06:13
on here well I've been Vindicated on
00:06:14
that that sounds like I'm bragging I'm
00:06:16
not I'm just stating
00:06:18
factually that uh I said things that
00:06:20
were truly hated by a lot of the people
00:06:22
who worked there and they let me keep
00:06:23
saying them so it's kind of hard to
00:06:26
complain really at this point right
00:06:28
again it's not company just from a
00:06:30
business standpoint I think it's weird
00:06:33
for a company to fire their top
00:06:34
performer and to do so without giving
00:06:37
any notes I mean if any of us had a
00:06:40
superstar executive or a superstar
00:06:42
engineer like a 100x
00:06:45
engineer working at one of our companies
00:06:48
and like day in and day out they were
00:06:50
you know hitting every Milestone and
00:06:52
crushing it like if you had a problem
00:06:54
with them you would give them a note you
00:06:56
would just like try to say hey can we
00:06:57
just like so I just think from like a
00:06:59
business standpoint it's so weird it
00:07:02
just seems like self-destructive and I
00:07:04
think it was I mean their ratings really
00:07:06
cratered in the Wake right of making
00:07:08
this change maybe they've come back a
00:07:10
little bit but I don't think it's ever
00:07:11
been the same I just think it's a crazy
00:07:13
way to operate a business so yeah it's
00:07:15
their right I mean they can do whatever
00:07:16
they want but I don't understand it as a
00:07:18
way of doing business well I don't
00:07:20
understand it as a way of living either
00:07:21
I mean you know you everybody in the
00:07:23
course of life whether is a a parent or
00:07:25
an employer or just a friend has to
00:07:27
deliver uncomfortable news or disagree
00:07:29
with with someone that you deal with and
00:07:31
you have a moral obligation to explain
00:07:32
the disagreement you you can't just you
00:07:34
know Levy the penalty and leave it at
00:07:36
that you have to explain why you're
00:07:37
doing that and and I think that's it's
00:07:39
it's incumbent on us morally to do that
00:07:42
I wasn't that mad about it actually
00:07:44
because I know the rules of that
00:07:46
particular business which are are really
00:07:48
harsh and and I've been in it you know
00:07:50
my whole life and so I've seen a lot of
00:07:52
people as talented or more talented than
00:07:54
I meet bad ends and in you know for
00:07:58
reasons that I thought were not
00:07:59
justified and and I I know them all
00:08:01
really well so I you you work in a
00:08:03
business like that you know what it is
00:08:05
you know the black car is going to show
00:08:07
up at 3: a.m. and toach you to lanca and
00:08:09
that's just what it is you know what I
00:08:10
mean you can't kind of whine about it
00:08:12
you know well how much of it was the you
00:08:15
know this is a family-owned
00:08:17
business and the patriarch obviously
00:08:20
pioneered opinion-based you know
00:08:24
journalism entertainment commentary and
00:08:26
the younger ones maybe were on the other
00:08:28
side of the political aisle and maybe
00:08:31
were not as I don't know Cutthroat or
00:08:34
maybe didn't share the same philosophy
00:08:36
of uh their dad what was your
00:08:38
relationship like with the the new
00:08:40
generation with rert Etc and how much
00:08:43
did that play into it do you think well
00:08:44
my my relationship with the father and
00:08:47
son who are directly involved in in that
00:08:50
company was from my perspective very
00:08:52
strong and um I will say this about the
00:08:54
murdocks they're very polite I mean
00:08:58
they're really kind of very Anglo almost
00:09:01
elaborately polite in a way that I'm not
00:09:03
mocking I'm complimenting and um they're
00:09:06
not confrontational they're not nasty in
00:09:08
the way that they deal with people
00:09:10
directly and and I prefer that as sort
00:09:12
of a way of communicating with people so
00:09:14
I got along with them very very well I
00:09:16
always liked them and they were very
00:09:18
nice to me elaborately nice to me and
00:09:20
always gave me assurances of my right to
00:09:22
say what I thought was was true and so
00:09:25
again I can only speculate I will say
00:09:27
though and you see this with Trump
00:09:28
especially
00:09:29
I don't think I'm anywhere near as
00:09:31
divisive As Trump obviously I'm not as
00:09:32
powerful As Trump I'm not the figure
00:09:33
Trump is but one thing that maybe Trump
00:09:36
and I have in common is were really
00:09:37
disliked by a certain set of people you
00:09:41
know affluent people Highly Educated
00:09:43
people people who work at NOS government
00:09:46
Finance you know really kind of hate a
00:09:48
certain brand of politics so it's not
00:09:50
being conservative you can be
00:09:52
conservative in the sort of you know I
00:09:53
work at Ko or Heritage or I you know we
00:09:56
need to get back to free trade or
00:09:57
whatever that kind of thing the Mega
00:09:59
night Forum policy that's all fine but
00:10:01
if you start asking questions like well
00:10:03
why doesn't our country act in its own
00:10:05
interest there's something about that
00:10:06
that's uniquely offensive to them and to
00:10:08
that whole class of people now I could
00:10:10
not have more contempt or loathing for
00:10:12
those people having grown up among them
00:10:13
I know how repulsive they are so you
00:10:15
know their their hatred of me is I wear
00:10:18
as a badge of honor it actually makes me
00:10:20
happy but it's hard to take I would say
00:10:23
I me again I'm I'm just speculating in
00:10:24
my specific case but I know more broadly
00:10:26
like it's very hard to have lunch at the
00:10:28
Four Seasons in
00:10:29
Jackson during the winter because
00:10:31
there's some private Equity wife who's
00:10:33
going to scream at you on your way to
00:10:34
the men's room because that world hates
00:10:36
you and so if you live in that world and
00:10:39
you're employing someone like me you
00:10:41
know you hear about it I guess that's my
00:10:43
point you hear about it like what that
00:10:45
guy's a
00:10:47
Nazi like who wants to deal with that I
00:10:50
want to actually pull this thread I
00:10:51
would love your perspective on the state
00:10:53
of American society just less on the
00:10:56
political spectrum of Republican versus
00:10:58
Democrat but just just observe for us
00:11:00
Tucker what do you see in American
00:11:02
society where are we as a society what
00:11:04
has happened what is happening well this
00:11:06
isn't an 8 Hour podcast I could actually
00:11:08
give you my very lengthy theories and
00:11:11
views on that but I will just say one
00:11:13
thing that's I've been thinking about a
00:11:14
lot recently I just have been had my
00:11:16
college roommate staying at my house and
00:11:19
um you know we're of course the same age
00:11:20
known each other our whole adult lives
00:11:22
he's been very successful and he lives
00:11:24
in a you know an enclave of very very
00:11:26
successful people and and so we're we're
00:11:29
familiar with this culture and we were
00:11:30
talking about American and he's from an
00:11:32
immigrant family so he's got a kind of
00:11:33
broader perspect I would argue a broader
00:11:35
perspective on like America he's 54 as I
00:11:38
am and we talking about how obviously
00:11:41
this is not a democracy it's not even a
00:11:44
sort of decent uh fa simile of a
00:11:46
democracy it's to call it a democracy is
00:11:48
like ridiculous actually but it's even
00:11:51
worse than that our politics and not
00:11:53
just our politics but our public
00:11:55
conversation reflects the very specific
00:11:58
and parochial concerns of a tiny tiny
00:12:01
group of people which is middle-aged
00:12:04
affluent women who tend to be very angry
00:12:08
and tend to um mostly with their
00:12:10
husbands but probably for other reasons
00:12:12
too and exercise this like wildly
00:12:16
disproportionate power over what we can
00:12:18
talk about and think about and and the
00:12:20
rules that the rest of us live by it's
00:12:22
just kind of amazing and he happens to
00:12:24
live in Jackson Wyoming so and I go
00:12:26
there you know to ski and to fish and I
00:12:28
have for a very long time and I always
00:12:30
say to him I can't go anymore cuz I
00:12:32
yelled at at lunch over my elk chili or
00:12:36
in the lift line or whatever or at the
00:12:38
you know Westside Market literally a a
00:12:40
relative of mine yelled at me while
00:12:42
buying bananas in the you know the
00:12:44
Westside Market she lives there and I'm
00:12:46
thinking what is it about this group of
00:12:49
people that hates me so much when again
00:12:52
I know them really well I'm related in
00:12:53
some cases to them so and I'm not quite
00:12:56
sure but I just I I see our politics and
00:12:59
our concerns which if you take three
00:13:01
steps back are like insanely picky like
00:13:05
trans black lives matter well I never
00:13:07
said they didn't but like if that's your
00:13:10
main public policy objective to
00:13:12
celebrate trans black lives in a country
00:13:14
of 360 million people it's got a lot of
00:13:16
big problems you are not seeing the
00:13:18
whole picture so like what is that and
00:13:23
what it is again is the disproportionate
00:13:25
influence of a class of people and their
00:13:27
Neurosis I wouldn't even say policy
00:13:29
concerns but like there are things
00:13:30
they're worried about and their weird
00:13:33
personal ticks and like the result of
00:13:35
years of therapy and ssris on their
00:13:36
brains like that kind of controls our
00:13:39
whole conversation and my friend was
00:13:42
saying because he's really smart he's
00:13:44
like yeah but the good news is this
00:13:46
can't last because it's just too stupid
00:13:48
and at some point very soon the country
00:13:50
is going to revert to the place that all
00:13:51
countries begin which is in a
00:13:53
conversation about things that matter
00:13:55
like who comprises the population do we
00:13:57
have enough water where are we on energy
00:13:59
exactly how are we going to manage these
00:14:01
complex relationships with other
00:14:03
countries like the things that you know
00:14:04
the stuff of government the stuff of
00:14:06
resour of well of of course resources
00:14:09
but like just the basic questions that
00:14:11
should dominate the consciousness of any
00:14:14
of any country and should dominate our
00:14:15
public conversation it's like our public
00:14:18
obsessions are getting increasingly
00:14:20
irrelevant actually increasingly it's
00:14:23
like crazy as our problems get bigger
00:14:26
conversation the conversation becomes
00:14:28
more in as the problems get bigger thank
00:14:30
you exactly so when you look at that
00:14:32
that cohort's disproportionate impact
00:14:34
and then you translated for example last
00:14:36
night there was um I guess like a almost
00:14:39
Riot protest when folks were trying to
00:14:41
light the Christmas tree in
00:14:43
Rockefeller Center I guess and there was
00:14:46
like a huge Pro Hamas I think somebody
00:14:49
checked me if that's is wrong protest
00:14:51
and then people were pushing back on the
00:14:53
cops and all of this stuff and all these
00:14:54
folks were trying to do was just like
00:14:56
the Christmas tree can you connect the
00:14:58
do how does that Cort get to it no but
00:15:02
it it's actually a branch from the same
00:15:04
tree Christmas tree in this case um
00:15:07
because that whole conversation well I
00:15:08
think it's interesting and I think it's
00:15:10
you know geopolitically significant and
00:15:12
and I've you know been to those
00:15:14
countries and I know people there so I'm
00:15:15
like interested in it and there's a lot
00:15:17
to care about and be interested in but
00:15:20
the displacement of all of our public
00:15:22
passions onto a conflict in a foreign
00:15:25
country however important that conflict
00:15:27
may be really kind of tells you a lot
00:15:30
it's like in other words yeah I care
00:15:32
what's happening between Israel and
00:15:34
Hamas I have views on it which are
00:15:37
probably pretty mainstream views
00:15:38
whatever I don't have any very
00:15:39
interesting views on it but it it's a
00:15:41
little weird for your entire country
00:15:43
thousands of miles away to be so
00:15:45
preoccupied with that conflict that they
00:15:47
miss big history changing events
00:15:50
happening like in their own country and
00:15:52
I think that's again a species of the
00:15:54
same problem we are unable to the the
00:15:58
problems that confront us are so big
00:15:59
that we can't deal with them and I and
00:16:00
actually my wife and I had this
00:16:01
conversation the other night I was for
00:16:02
years a magazine writer and I have to
00:16:04
file every Friday I work for Bill
00:16:06
Crystal at the Weekly Standard and
00:16:07
obviously I regret that but it was
00:16:09
interesting at the time and I have to
00:16:10
file the story every week and and I'd
00:16:13
stay up all night because I'm very lazy
00:16:15
and I put stuff off and I'd stay up
00:16:16
every Thursday night all night and my
00:16:18
had recall it's going to the pr you know
00:16:20
it's going to the printing press in
00:16:21
Pennsylvania this was back when it was
00:16:22
in print and you got to file it and
00:16:25
right around 8:30 a.m. on Friday morning
00:16:27
I would have this overwhelm in urge to
00:16:29
rearrange the books on my shelves in my
00:16:31
library by title or by subject I like
00:16:34
have all these weird kind of like
00:16:36
librarian fantasies about rearranging
00:16:38
books which in know on a normal day like
00:16:41
why would you do that and better things
00:16:42
to do but as my problems mounted and I
00:16:45
couldn't like write the lead I wanted I
00:16:48
would transfer all my anxiety onto
00:16:50
something I felt I could control or that
00:16:51
was of lower Stakes less consequence and
00:16:54
I think that's kind of what we're seeing
00:16:56
a little bit like we care more about
00:16:58
Foreign Wars and trans lives as like the
00:17:02
obvious things that hold our society
00:17:04
together start to fall apart cuz like
00:17:06
how do you even deal with that am I I
00:17:08
don't know if I'm being very articulate
00:17:10
but that's what's happen sense what do
00:17:12
you put on the top of that list of
00:17:13
things we should be focused on tuer oh
00:17:15
God I mean but but from my perspective
00:17:18
by far one two three this is what
00:17:20
America needs to put its energy on it's
00:17:22
not even close National cohesion and by
00:17:25
which I mean something specific what
00:17:27
does the majority of the country have in
00:17:29
common with one another because look if
00:17:31
it it it the Arc of the last Century's
00:17:34
his American history is super super
00:17:36
interesting so you have this massive
00:17:38
influx of immigration you know the Ellis
00:17:41
Island generation late uh
00:17:45
18th 19th early 20th century and it's
00:17:49
both good and bad we only remember the
00:17:50
good but there was a lot of social
00:17:51
volatility like a lot like the mayor of
00:17:53
Chicago got shot in his house there was
00:17:55
bombings on Wall Street like the whole
00:17:57
the wobblies the the anarchists like the
00:17:59
foot soldiers that were were immigrants
00:18:01
working class European immigrants and
00:18:04
part of the problem was there were just
00:18:05
a lot of immigrants and I mean Saku and
00:18:08
Vetti you know who shot the shot the
00:18:11
clerk in uh was it Brockton Mass anyway
00:18:14
it was in M outside Boston they had been
00:18:16
in the country for just a few years and
00:18:18
they immediately got sucked into radical
00:18:19
politics well why was that well because
00:18:21
they weren't kind of bought in or rooted
00:18:23
in or hadn't been fully assimilated into
00:18:25
American society so then you have the
00:18:27
first world war and we basically shut
00:18:28
down immigration and we have this period
00:18:30
of settling we're like all Americans
00:18:32
let's think through our Civic religion
00:18:34
what ties us together and then that
00:18:36
leads into to October of 29 and you do
00:18:38
have this National crisis that lasts for
00:18:40
more than a decade and we didn't blow up
00:18:42
and we had a successful you know the CCC
00:18:44
we like had these big programs which
00:18:46
I'll say this as a conservative kind of
00:18:48
worked in keeping people fed and focused
00:18:51
it gave them purpose kept the country
00:18:53
from from collapsing during the Great
00:18:55
Depression if that happened now when
00:18:58
when there is no broad agreement on what
00:18:59
it means to be an American no agreement
00:19:01
at all on what we all have in common I
00:19:03
don't think we can withstand it actually
00:19:05
I really don't and I'm not even
00:19:07
convinced it matters as much what that
00:19:10
Civic religion is as it does that we
00:19:12
have one if we don't have anything that
00:19:14
ties us together when that day comes and
00:19:18
you know what I mean when the economic
00:19:20
crisis comes because it's coming like
00:19:22
what's that going to look like it's
00:19:23
going to be very scary and I so that's
00:19:26
what I'm most worried about by far how
00:19:28
do you define national cohesion I guess
00:19:30
maybe then like what are the few
00:19:31
elements that you think America needs to
00:19:33
agree on as a as a majority wake me up
00:19:36
from a deep sleep and ask me what it
00:19:38
means to be an American okay and then do
00:19:40
the same to a thousand other people and
00:19:42
we'll just do a survey on it and do the
00:19:44
majority of those people give the same
00:19:46
answer and if they don't like so this is
00:19:50
okay this I mean I have all so many
00:19:52
theories God don't I'm I'm going to
00:19:53
control myself but I would just say one
00:19:54
other thing which is we overestimate
00:19:57
people ability to metabolize change it's
00:20:01
you know I'm not like a strict darwinist
00:20:03
or anything but I do sort of believe
00:20:04
that over time people adapt to their
00:20:06
environment and that you know in US is
00:20:10
you most of our abiles are inborn like
00:20:12
that's just true sorry I have dogs I
00:20:13
know that and people just haven't you
00:20:17
know the world didn't change that much
00:20:18
from you know 460 or whatever the
00:20:21
sacking of Rome until the Renaissance it
00:20:23
just didn't and then the Industrial
00:20:25
Revolution to now has been like such
00:20:27
massive change that is driving people
00:20:28
insane people can't handle Relentless
00:20:31
change and technologists love Relentless
00:20:33
change and I like a lot of technologists
00:20:36
a couple are really good friends of mine
00:20:37
but their anomalies a lot of them are
00:20:39
literally autistic I'm not attacking
00:20:41
them I'm praising them but they're
00:20:42
different from most people you know
00:20:45
right but you know like they can handle
00:20:47
it they can like they want a world
00:20:49
that's totally different from today's
00:20:51
world tomorrow they flux they they they
00:20:53
thrive in that flux they like they do
00:20:55
right but they
00:20:57
don't they don't understand how rare
00:20:59
they are and if you impose that on a
00:21:02
society and you don't ever have a period
00:21:05
where you pause and let things settle
00:21:07
you will blow up that society and the
00:21:09
Chinese who I don't admire for many
00:21:10
things at all uh know this and I admire
00:21:14
that about them they think that change
00:21:15
for it its own sake is dangerous now
00:21:17
they think it's dangerous to their power
00:21:18
and they're absolutely right but it's
00:21:19
also dangerous just to like the idea of
00:21:21
a society what is a society and so um
00:21:25
anyway I can go on and on and on but
00:21:27
that that's my main concern let me
00:21:29
propose a theory and see if you react to
00:21:31
it I think that there's a big
00:21:33
orientation in society where it's
00:21:36
constantly about trying to shift the
00:21:38
power dynamics that everyone always
00:21:40
feels like they don't have something
00:21:41
that someone else has and that other
00:21:44
person that has it for some
00:21:46
reason um is advantaged in a way that to
00:21:49
them always feels unfair and everyone
00:21:52
feels this way everyone that's right
00:21:53
you're you're the top of the food chain
00:21:55
you feel like someone else has something
00:21:57
you don't have and it's unfair and the
00:21:59
system is set up that way no matter
00:22:00
where you sit and as a result of that F
00:22:03
and and by the way this goes back I get
00:22:05
I get whack super philosophical on this
00:22:07
stuff but like buddhism's always had
00:22:08
this point that like the desire that
00:22:10
humans have is the one thing that causes
00:22:13
all of societal suffering Behavior
00:22:16
everything but it all comes down to this
00:22:17
it's that you see that someone else has
00:22:19
something you desire it and then you
00:22:21
want to change the dynamic of how the
00:22:23
system how Society is organized to uh to
00:22:26
fix that the thing technology if you
00:22:29
think back the Catapult gave an
00:22:30
advantage to an army that allowed them
00:22:32
to win in a war so did the rifle so did
00:22:35
the nuclear bomb that ultimately
00:22:37
technology was the enabling force that
00:22:39
allowed a rapid shift in power dynamics
00:22:42
and all technology ultimately creates
00:22:44
leverage for the creator of the
00:22:46
technology initially and then it
00:22:47
diffuses to everyone but that is perhaps
00:22:50
why I this is a a theory I have which is
00:22:53
that there's generally pessimism towards
00:22:56
technology because it creates unfair
00:22:59
advantages that shift the power Dynamic
00:23:01
too quickly yes um and too
00:23:03
advantageously and it's also why I think
00:23:05
you don't hear a lot of support for
00:23:06
technology from most of society because
00:23:08
technology creators are such a small
00:23:10
percentage of society so I don't know if
00:23:13
that that resonates with your point but
00:23:14
for me it's
00:23:15
always I think that's really smart and I
00:23:17
think it's indisputably true ABS
00:23:20
absolutely I will say you're making an
00:23:23
argument in addition to many other
00:23:25
things against tribalism because
00:23:28
tribalism
00:23:29
accentuates these pre-existing impulses
00:23:32
in people which again like all impulses
00:23:34
are just inborn like the human nature is
00:23:36
immutable so let's just start there it
00:23:38
cannot be changed AI will not change
00:23:40
human nature it'll change everything but
00:23:41
but human nature and you know envy and
00:23:46
you know the fact that the fact that
00:23:49
Prosperity is a relative measure above
00:23:52
starvation so it's like there's a famous
00:23:54
Russian proverb like you know I've got a
00:23:57
cow my neighbor has a cow he gets a cow
00:24:00
now he has two cows I kill his cow right
00:24:03
totally right it's just right so so but
00:24:06
but tribalism especially in a country
00:24:08
like ours which as noted doesn't have a
00:24:12
working majority of people with obvious
00:24:14
connection to each other it really
00:24:18
really exacerbates that a lot and
00:24:21
because it makes it more obvious so it's
00:24:22
not so all of a sudden it's not just
00:24:24
like hey the smart kids are richer they
00:24:26
have two cows it's it's like the Jews
00:24:28
are richer or the Indians are richer or
00:24:30
the whites are richer or whatever you
00:24:32
know it's like just name the group and
00:24:35
that once you go down that road you know
00:24:37
it's it that that leads to violence and
00:24:40
mass violence actually a lot of people
00:24:42
listening right now Tucker are probably
00:24:45
a little bit confused hearing you talk
00:24:47
about cohesion of the country when most
00:24:49
people would look at uh you know the
00:24:51
tribalism as almost most manifested in
00:24:56
cable news you and Rachel mat every
00:24:58
night we're you know number one and
00:24:59
number two in the ratings taking either
00:25:01
side of the tribe so is this something
00:25:03
that's evolved and how did your time and
00:25:05
cable news inform you to this because
00:25:08
most people would say like wait isn't
00:25:10
Tucker and Rachel like isn't that aren't
00:25:12
those those the two tribe leaders I
00:25:14
think I think there are dumb people who
00:25:15
think that um but no here's the
00:25:18
difference my My Views um wait you
00:25:20
talking about me oh no I'm not including
00:25:22
you that I'm not including you no I'm
00:25:24
not including you no no no no sh fits
00:25:28
I'm ask onal of the audience thing to
00:25:31
say I'm sorry it's all good it's all
00:25:33
good sucker why should you be any
00:25:35
different than the other
00:25:37
panelists no I I love and not only do I
00:25:40
love I don't always love but I certainly
00:25:43
think that reason disagreement is
00:25:45
essential it's the alternative to
00:25:47
Violence by the way that's what that is
00:25:49
debate and politics are the alternative
00:25:51
violence you get two choices we're going
00:25:52
to do it by arguing about it or we're
00:25:55
going to do it by force okay so so I
00:25:57
absolutely think it's essential to
00:25:58
debate things um because if we don't
00:26:01
then we just have to shoot each other
00:26:02
and I'm against that but that's very
00:26:05
different from tribalism because
00:26:08
tribalism is based on things that you
00:26:11
can't change so for example in 2002 I
00:26:14
hosted a show on CNN and it was the
00:26:16
runup to the war in Iraq I was
00:26:18
uncomfortable with the idea that we
00:26:19
would be invading Iraq to respond to an
00:26:22
attack on America that had nothing to do
00:26:24
with Iraq I did think that didn't make
00:26:25
sense but I was sold on the idea finally
00:26:28
by someone and I foolishly uh pared the
00:26:31
bush administration's line on that so I
00:26:33
was a proar person for a time then I
00:26:36
went to Iraq and I changed my views
00:26:38
completely so I I switched sides
00:26:40
completely and I wound up on the other
00:26:41
side anti-war in Iraq and that took
00:26:44
about a week I I was born a white man
00:26:48
you were born whatever you are
00:26:49
everyone's born whatever they are that
00:26:51
can't change so if we Stoke division
00:26:54
along lines that can't be changed then
00:26:57
we're really at a culdesac our
00:26:59
differences can never be resolved you
00:27:01
will always be what you are you can't
00:27:03
change it and the same for me and so
00:27:06
those are the things that wind up
00:27:07
becoming generational conflicts Civil
00:27:10
Wars Rwanda and so I've always been
00:27:13
against that my entire life and my
00:27:15
entire time on Fox I argued against that
00:27:17
I think affirmative action is completely
00:27:18
not only immoral because it's an insult
00:27:21
to the idea of America which is like the
00:27:23
people who do the best get the most but
00:27:26
it is also a recipe over time for
00:27:29
violence and I made that case I've made
00:27:32
that case every single day you know
00:27:35
since David and I had lunch 30 years ago
00:27:37
I've never not thought that I've always
00:27:39
had the Dr Seuss view of race relations
00:27:42
which is we should deemphasize race and
00:27:46
Elevate you know Merit achievement hard
00:27:49
work character the things that we can
00:27:51
control and um and but the other side
00:27:54
has gone and by the way liberals used to
00:27:55
agree with me that used to be a liberal
00:27:57
position within my lifetime and then all
00:27:59
of a sudden became a Nazi position and I
00:28:03
you know that's just a manipulation of
00:28:04
language but the truth is on the race
00:28:07
stuff which is what matters over time if
00:28:09
you convince people to hate others on
00:28:10
the basis of their race you've committed
00:28:12
a massive sin and you've done a lot to
00:28:13
wreck our country that's coming from the
00:28:15
left I'm sorry that's just true just to
00:28:17
connect these ideas I think that is a
00:28:18
major source of our division is one of
00:28:21
the reasons why people have a hard time
00:28:24
saying what it means to be an American
00:28:26
is because there are dueling visions of
00:28:28
what it means to be an American the left
00:28:30
has been trying to change or rewrite
00:28:32
American history so for example the key
00:28:35
year in American history the founding of
00:28:37
the nation was not 1776 with the
00:28:39
Declaration of Independence it was 1619
00:28:42
right this is the base of the whole 1619
00:28:45
project of the New York Times is that
00:28:47
the founding of the nation began with
00:28:48
the importation of Slavery to the new
00:28:50
world that was the key year and so I
00:28:53
think there's been an effort for a long
00:28:54
time on the part of the left to rewrite
00:28:56
what it means to be an American and and
00:28:58
to rewrite American history it's
00:29:00
actually in a weird way it's the
00:29:02
opposite of what dong shaing did in
00:29:04
China where dung basically he flipped
00:29:07
the the doctrine over there from
00:29:09
communism to capitalism he didn't
00:29:11
outright declare it he said that you
00:29:14
know it doesn't matter whether a cat is
00:29:16
is white or black as long as it catches
00:29:17
mice and they didn't change the name
00:29:19
they didn't change the party it's still
00:29:22
the Chinese Communist party they didn't
00:29:23
change the flag but he did a hot swap at
00:29:25
the back end to capitalism
00:29:28
and you know they changed what the
00:29:29
country was about in that economically
00:29:32
it worked out great for them I think in
00:29:34
a similar way in the United States they
00:29:36
haven't changed the flag they haven't
00:29:37
changed the name but there is an attempt
00:29:39
to hot swap the back end of what it
00:29:41
means to be an American and I think this
00:29:44
is the root of the conflict I mean I
00:29:46
agree with that completely and I don't
00:29:48
think we've thought through what it
00:29:50
means to
00:29:51
change you know out of out of many one
00:29:55
to out of one many I I think that's um
00:29:59
we've set ourselves up for something
00:30:01
really really scary for again for for
00:30:03
violent conflict cuz I don't see how
00:30:05
that that resolves itself you know you
00:30:08
wise people understand this in a diverse
00:30:11
Society plural society whatever you call
00:30:13
it in society where you know you got a
00:30:14
lot of different people with a lot of
00:30:15
different backgrounds and shades and
00:30:16
religions and all this stuff you need to
00:30:19
deemphasize the things that divide us
00:30:22
inherently and emphasize the things that
00:30:24
unite us like that's not hard and it's
00:30:27
it's also so obvious that if you're not
00:30:29
doing it my first question is why are
00:30:31
you not doing that I mean why are you
00:30:32
not and and that kind of explains the
00:30:35
true loathing that I have for the people
00:30:37
in charge on both sides because like if
00:30:40
you did that in your household with your
00:30:43
children your kids would be in rehab or
00:30:45
jail or dead it's that obvious like you
00:30:48
would never do that to your kids so why
00:30:50
would you do that to your population
00:30:52
seriously freeberg you had a question
00:30:54
well where does responsibility lie there
00:30:55
Tucker what's the mechanism for doing
00:30:57
that CU we often and I
00:31:00
find in conversations everyone says the
00:31:03
government should and I often question
00:31:05
why the government should
00:31:07
anything in my in my life in in in my
00:31:11
social settings in How I Live how I do
00:31:16
business does the government the federal
00:31:19
government in the United States have a
00:31:20
role in responsibility to do what what
00:31:24
you're suggesting we need to do in the
00:31:25
United States or is it the media or is
00:31:29
it social leaders or is it Business
00:31:33
Leaders or is it local governments who
00:31:35
is responsible ultimately for creating
00:31:37
the social cohesion necessary for the US
00:31:40
to enter a new era of prosperity and and
00:31:44
why is that the right group to be
00:31:46
responsible well look I would say well I
00:31:50
it's a great question and I would say
00:31:51
New Era of pro era of prosperity I don't
00:31:54
think that's really the goal we have
00:31:56
prosperity um and I think it's a real
00:31:58
question as to
00:31:59
whether but do people want Pro I mean I
00:32:01
think there's actually a lot of evidence
00:32:03
that human beings sort of hate
00:32:05
Prosperity actually we're not designed
00:32:07
to be prosperous and the second we are
00:32:09
we invent climate crises to to to make
00:32:12
us less prosperous I mean that's really
00:32:14
what that is right but anyway leaving
00:32:16
that aside
00:32:17
um it's it's incumbent on all of us
00:32:20
anyone with authority anyone with a
00:32:21
voice anyone with money and it's really
00:32:23
kind of as simple and and I do think you
00:32:26
know government is kind of the last to
00:32:27
fall in line it's it's really as simple
00:32:30
as making things socially unacceptable
00:32:32
we certainly I grew up in a world where
00:32:33
people smoked on airplanes okay now that
00:32:35
was banned by the FAA but it was also
00:32:39
made totally socially unacceptable you
00:32:41
couldn't light a cigarette in someone's
00:32:42
kitchen you just wouldn't think to do
00:32:44
that in the same way that you wouldn't
00:32:45
think to give the middle finger to an
00:32:47
old lady which is not actually illegal
00:32:50
but nobody would do that because it's so
00:32:51
appalling in the minds of everybody and
00:32:53
everyone's happy to say what what the
00:32:55
hell are you doing and and I feel the
00:32:56
same way about the race stuff it's like
00:32:59
oh you know race this race that someone
00:33:01
should say whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa stop
00:33:04
that there's part of what you're saying
00:33:05
which I think is which I really agree
00:33:08
with which is this idea that we have
00:33:10
gone as the human race okay from having
00:33:13
to make major adaptations over the Arc
00:33:16
of our Evolution as a species to now
00:33:19
what you're kind of saying is we're now
00:33:20
dealing with all these minor adaptations
00:33:22
and it kind of breaks the entire
00:33:25
circuitry of the brain which is like we
00:33:27
had to fight to evade the animals to
00:33:29
feed ourselves ex to build a machine to
00:33:32
all of a sudden go from an agrarian to
00:33:33
an indust these were huge
00:33:36
adaptations and now we have all of this
00:33:39
almost Surplus in
00:33:40
excess and it's a little bit of a heads
00:33:43
scratcher for a lot of people because
00:33:45
now all the adaptations that are left
00:33:46
are very minor in shape because all of
00:33:49
these other things that would rather
00:33:50
occupy your time sustenance survival
00:33:53
resiliency are taken off the table I get
00:33:55
that the other part of of what you say
00:33:58
which is very reneer Ard which is like
00:34:00
hey there's all this copying of people
00:34:03
and desire there's going to be violence
00:34:05
if we don't figure out how
00:34:08
to decharge
00:34:11
it what do you think we need to do in
00:34:15
order to do that discharge how do you
00:34:17
get these people to stop focusing on the
00:34:20
small order bits and how do we
00:34:23
reorganize people to focus on the big
00:34:25
order bits so that
00:34:27
we minimize this risk of violence we
00:34:29
minimize the one group of immutable
00:34:32
traits fighting another group of
00:34:34
immutable traits how does that happen do
00:34:36
you think you know I'm I'm I'm pretty
00:34:37
pessimistic about about a a a country
00:34:41
this big and we say the country I mean
00:34:43
like when I talk about the country I'm
00:34:45
talking about people I know or grew up
00:34:46
with or people who speak my language I
00:34:48
mean the country is so big that
00:34:50
something can happen in New Mexico
00:34:51
something big can happen in New Mexico
00:34:53
or San Francisco for that matter and
00:34:54
like people don't even know so like but
00:34:56
in General I would say um you know it's
00:35:00
hard to see changing course before we're
00:35:03
forced to um and so I you know I do
00:35:06
think you think basically there has to
00:35:08
be a moment
00:35:10
of something that's so egregious that
00:35:13
causes a national reconciliation of some
00:35:15
kind essentially that says hold on a
00:35:16
second you want know you want to know
00:35:18
what I really think which is like kind
00:35:19
of crackpot but I know that it's right
00:35:21
yes I I do think the problem is is is
00:35:24
prosperity and I've noticed this as a
00:35:26
middle-aged man as I've gotten older and
00:35:28
I know people who've been successful um
00:35:31
in some cases very successful and I've
00:35:32
noticed that um when they succeed when
00:35:35
they get everything they want they
00:35:36
destroy themselves I've noticed this
00:35:38
again and again and again it's you are
00:35:40
the dog who caught the car and and it's
00:35:42
and actually it's more than just having
00:35:44
idle time there's something there's a
00:35:45
metaphysical quality there's there's
00:35:47
there are factors here that I don't
00:35:48
understand that are are are deeper
00:35:51
actually but I just notice it there's
00:35:53
something about affluence that that over
00:35:57
time convinces people to kill themselves
00:36:01
and you see it like in a literal sense
00:36:03
in the euthanasia numbers out of Canada
00:36:05
and out of see you see it in a literal
00:36:08
sense when you look at you know the
00:36:09
incidence of diabetes as correlated to
00:36:11
GDP that's exactly right exactly you
00:36:13
look at these emerging economies and as
00:36:15
GDP cranks the first thing that happens
00:36:17
is heart disease cranks up and diabetes
00:36:19
cranks up because to your point Tucker
00:36:21
they start to enjoy the prosperity of
00:36:24
their earned life but they're not
00:36:26
enjoying it that's the thing the other
00:36:27
thing you see is they stop having
00:36:29
children which is a form of suicide
00:36:31
you're not
00:36:32
reproducing you know what I mean there's
00:36:34
no other culture who has left a written
00:36:36
record in history that didn't see having
00:36:38
children as like the the primary first
00:36:40
of all the primary source of wealth and
00:36:42
not just because they worked on your
00:36:43
farm but because they exist and and so
00:36:45
do your genes um so if you start to see
00:36:49
every it's not just a matter of culture
00:36:51
it happens in non-Christian Japan it
00:36:54
happens in post-christian Spain it
00:36:56
happens in in South Korea with
00:36:59
A7 replacement rate you know
00:37:02
reproduction rate s so um what is that
00:37:06
and again it's the same thing it's that
00:37:09
affluence kills you and if you don't
00:37:11
believe it fast for three days fasting
00:37:14
by the way is a feature not just of you
00:37:16
know Christian history every religion
00:37:19
and every culture that I'm aware of um
00:37:22
has acknowledged fasting as an important
00:37:24
religious ritual why is that why would
00:37:26
foregoing food be so important well try
00:37:29
it for 3 days and experience you know
00:37:32
you're quivering like a tuning fork you
00:37:34
your sensitivity just explodes there's
00:37:36
something about eating too much
00:37:37
literally satisfying the most basic need
00:37:40
of all which is for calories there's
00:37:42
something about that that kills you and
00:37:44
there's something about forgoing it that
00:37:46
enlightens you it's like super
00:37:48
interesting so I I and I'm look there's
00:37:50
so much I don't know I'm the last person
00:37:51
you want to listen to these are deeper
00:37:52
waters that I'm qualified to wait in but
00:37:55
my senses tell me very very strongly
00:37:57
that the core problem is having too much
00:37:59
and I'm not calling for taking things
00:38:01
away I think the global warming [ __ ]
00:38:03
is [ __ ] okay I mean obviously it is
00:38:06
climate crisis it's propaganda but it's
00:38:08
coming out of it's also sincere to some
00:38:10
extent it's not just a power grab by
00:38:12
Davos it's more than that it's people's
00:38:15
gut level sense that we need to have
00:38:17
less because this is killing us and that
00:38:19
is real fre is Tucker said global
00:38:22
warming is uh [ __ ] is I'm just going
00:38:25
to pull anage for I just want I just
00:38:27
want his reaction you just said that
00:38:30
consultant of science let's see no no
00:38:32
but no no I think it's like just on that
00:38:35
topic um you know data shows
00:38:38
temperatures are getting warmer off of a
00:38:40
baseline of 500 years and now things get
00:38:42
war no no no I'm I'm so sorry can I can
00:38:44
I just make a small correction no I'm
00:38:46
not saying it's not getting warmer it
00:38:47
seems to be getting warmer I'm really
00:38:49
saying this whole elaborate theory that
00:38:52
humans are causing this rise in
00:38:54
temperatures and we know how to reverse
00:38:56
it through say shutting down you know
00:38:58
the use of hydrocarbons yeah I mean and
00:39:02
and even if that were true what we're
00:39:04
doing to affect those changes shows how
00:39:06
fraudulent the whole thing is I mean you
00:39:08
you know the whole arguments but I'm not
00:39:09
actually calling into a question that
00:39:10
it's changing temperatures always
00:39:11
changed I live in Maine which was shaped
00:39:13
by the glaciers 10,000 years ago so like
00:39:15
yeah we've had some climate change do
00:39:17
you think that human civilization is not
00:39:19
threatened by the changing climate I
00:39:21
just just this is a quick little point
00:39:23
but do I think well sure I mean it's
00:39:25
threatened in some ways probably help in
00:39:27
other ways I personally hate hot weather
00:39:28
so um you know I don't care for it I I
00:39:31
think there's quite a bit of evidence
00:39:33
that previous that that actually
00:39:37
temperature changes can be much more
00:39:38
radical than we think and I'll just give
00:39:39
you one example that no one's ever
00:39:41
explained but you're aware that there
00:39:42
are all these woolly mammoths found in
00:39:45
case to ice in Siberia and the Soviet
00:39:47
you know early Soviet 1920s expedition
00:39:50
to map all of Russia found these things
00:39:52
and at least one stranded Expedition ate
00:39:54
them okay they ate the willly Mammoth
00:39:57
because it had been frozen so thoroughly
00:40:00
that the after thousands of years the
00:40:01
meat was still edible yeah well the
00:40:03
question is like how did that happen and
00:40:05
I think it was the guy who ran bird's
00:40:06
eye frozen food who was an expert on
00:40:08
freezing meat it's like wait a second
00:40:09
that weighs X th000 PBS it would have to
00:40:12
be frozen extremely quickly and I know
00:40:15
this from hunting too you have to freeze
00:40:17
meat very fast to keep it from spoiling
00:40:21
from the back so how did that happen
00:40:23
well no no for real though cuz it
00:40:24
decomposes very a big animal if you
00:40:26
shoot say a moose or a big deer or a
00:40:29
mule deer you have to open it up
00:40:31
immediately or the meat will spoil
00:40:33
because the bigger it is the more heat
00:40:35
it generates right we know that it's
00:40:36
like okay so how exactly did hundreds or
00:40:40
thousands of large animals get frozen so
00:40:43
quickly that the meat is still edible
00:40:44
thousands of years later that's an
00:40:45
honest question that no one's ever
00:40:46
answered and the only potential or even
00:40:49
plausible answer is temperature changed
00:40:51
so fast it flash froze them well how did
00:40:55
that happen like what no these are
00:40:57
sincere
00:40:59
questions I'll look into it I'll get
00:41:00
back to you I've not heard about this
00:41:03
flash frozen that's interesting no this
00:41:05
reminds me of that Marlin Brando film
00:41:07
you remember where he like goes to an
00:41:08
island and eats the like super rare food
00:41:11
it's like a kodo dragon or something the
00:41:13
graduates Matthew broadrick in it so
00:41:15
good it's like the expedition to Siberia
00:41:17
to eat the flash frozen woolly mammoth
00:41:20
to make a good sequel but it's
00:41:21
interesting I'm going to look into it I
00:41:23
don't know the answer to how and why the
00:41:26
climate here's the point that we have
00:41:28
physical evidence that the climate on
00:41:30
Earth within you know inside our
00:41:32
atmosphere has changed dramatically so
00:41:34
dramatically that it would you know kill
00:41:36
every person who was affected by it like
00:41:39
a number of times that we know of over
00:41:42
the course of the history of the earth
00:41:44
So like um I mean I think there could we
00:41:47
know we could be in for actual climate
00:41:48
change that killed everybody that's
00:41:50
entirely possible but the idea that it's
00:41:52
the fault of the United States because
00:41:54
of you know you driving F1 50 is like so
00:41:57
absurd it's like hard to believe anyone
00:41:58
takes that seriously there's like no
00:41:59
evidence of that actually sorry yeah I'm
00:42:01
generally just an I'm an optimist about
00:42:03
Solutions anyway but you know I think
00:42:06
human Ingenuity has always prevailed so
00:42:08
all this pessimism and
00:42:12
catastrophizing I I I do disagree with
00:42:14
respect to like there is science that
00:42:16
indicates that there are elements that
00:42:17
were kind of affecting things in a in an
00:42:20
adverse way to challenging way but I'm
00:42:22
not concerned about the challenges just
00:42:23
because of where human technology sits
00:42:25
and the things we can do so I'm I have I
00:42:28
have a slightly different point of view
00:42:29
but I I hear you on it I don't want to Y
00:42:32
debate the point sorry chth go ahead
00:42:34
yeah that's a whole another thing yeah I
00:42:35
just want to uplevel this back to
00:42:36
something because I think if I had to
00:42:38
summarize what you're saying is you're
00:42:39
saying chath our society is too
00:42:41
prosperous and as a result that
00:42:43
Prosperity creates um small Fringe
00:42:46
issues that dominate which then creates
00:42:49
an inability for us to be cohesive so
00:42:51
then if we have something that allows us
00:42:53
to be forced to be more resilient
00:42:56
we will actually wake up from this fever
00:42:58
and say hold on guys what are the big
00:43:00
issues let's really figure out what
00:43:02
matters let's get organized and let's go
00:43:04
after those and that both is a healing
00:43:07
of the country but it's almost like our
00:43:08
insurance policy is that kind of a is
00:43:11
that a fair summary if I have to put
00:43:13
what you're saying in a box or is that
00:43:14
well I would I would hate ever to seem
00:43:17
like I'm looking forward to catastrophe
00:43:19
because I I'm not and I I hope I hope it
00:43:22
doesn't unfold
00:43:24
that no I mean I used to drink too much
00:43:27
and I know a lot of people used to drink
00:43:28
too much and you know use drugs or
00:43:29
whatever and some of them didn't get
00:43:31
better till they went to jail you know
00:43:33
as people who drink too much tend to do
00:43:34
over time that never happened to me and
00:43:35
I'm so grateful for it like you don't
00:43:37
need to you know get to the bottom you
00:43:40
don't I don't think that you do I'm just
00:43:43
I'm just really worried that we're not
00:43:44
even having a conversation about this
00:43:45
and but I again would point to I said a
00:43:48
second ago about there's something
00:43:49
metaphysical here there's something
00:43:50
deeper than just you know the the Search
00:43:54
for Advantage which is is a big
00:43:56
motivator among people but there's
00:43:57
something more than that going on why
00:44:00
are we intentionally wrecking the
00:44:03
society and we are and I and I hear
00:44:06
people say well it's because some people
00:44:08
are getting paid and yeah it's not
00:44:10
really an adequate answer it's more than
00:44:12
that there's something going on like
00:44:14
instinctively people want to some people
00:44:17
want to tear it all down and I don't
00:44:20
think it's necessarily so they can
00:44:21
rebuild it to their own Advantage I
00:44:23
think like destruction is the point and
00:44:25
I just watch carefully and I don't
00:44:26
really know what's going on here but
00:44:28
something much deeper than what we're
00:44:30
acknowledging is going on here well I
00:44:32
think it comes back to this point about
00:44:34
I can't get what these other people have
00:44:35
and there's now an insurmountable
00:44:37
barrier that I cannot ever get there
00:44:41
know I mean that doesn't explain why but
00:44:43
hold on that that doesn't explain like
00:44:45
why for example Dustin moscovitz is
00:44:47
supporting revolutionary politics and
00:44:50
Chas I think it's a good example S I
00:44:52
think it does when you have massive
00:44:54
abundance to jamat point about the idle
00:44:56
mind you know DUS moskovitz has achieved
00:45:00
more than any human could achieve
00:45:01
billions of dollars and now he's got
00:45:03
this Surplus and then whatever you know
00:45:06
to to Tucker's Point whatever he's
00:45:08
dealing with personally now becomes this
00:45:10
you know canvas under which he's going
00:45:12
to deploy that wealth in an outsourced
00:45:14
way I think it actually does explain it
00:45:16
it fits more with like luxury beliefs
00:45:18
than with the idea that like scarcity or
00:45:21
Envy is somehow driving it yeah but yes
00:45:23
so those are luxury beliefs and he's got
00:45:26
a huge bankroll therefore it has an
00:45:28
outsized impact as sort of Tucker I
00:45:30
think I think the the luxury point is
00:45:32
once you reach a certain point your
00:45:34
attention can then shift to morality you
00:45:38
when you're starving in a street and you
00:45:40
need to feed your children correct
00:45:42
you're not focusing your whole day on
00:45:44
the morality and better treatment of
00:45:46
others in the world and extending you
00:45:48
know morality to the rest of the world
00:45:50
but when you have that luxury you have
00:45:51
to focus your attention in that sense I
00:45:54
do think that there's this large element
00:45:55
that the term equality gets recast into
00:45:59
every aspect of society which ultimately
00:46:01
leads to this General point of view of
00:46:04
Marxism which is everyone has to have an
00:46:06
equal outcome versus an equal
00:46:08
opportunity and that's where the
00:46:10
prosperity takes this you but I think I
00:46:13
agree with a lot of what you're saying
00:46:15
but I I I I think it's maybe more
00:46:16
profound than that I mean you're
00:46:18
absolutely right that only societies
00:46:20
that have reached a certain point can
00:46:21
afford to think about certain things you
00:46:22
don't see you know Hunter gather
00:46:24
societies don't debate effective out is
00:46:26
M because they're looking for roots okay
00:46:27
so I I agree with that y however if you
00:46:30
look at the behavior of you know some of
00:46:32
the richest people in our society and I
00:46:34
can't speak to Dustin mosit but I I have
00:46:36
the you know I know people like that
00:46:39
what they're funding are not exactly
00:46:41
luxury beliefs they're it's they're like
00:46:43
funding destruction actually and so like
00:46:45
previous generations of liberal rich
00:46:48
people funded things like public
00:46:50
libraries summer camps for poor kids
00:46:52
remember the New York Times used to have
00:46:53
these fundraisers like fresh air fund or
00:46:55
whatever and and people made fun of I
00:46:57
always kind of like that like you have
00:46:58
extra money and like you know help the
00:47:00
poor kids you know whether it works or
00:47:02
not we can debate but like I get it but
00:47:05
Dustin MOS if you're Dustin MOS or any I
00:47:07
don't mean to pick on him but any like
00:47:08
really rich person you and you're at
00:47:09
Baker's Bay or some Discovery property
00:47:12
that you know you and your billionaire
00:47:13
friends go to you might occur to you
00:47:15
like why not build one of these for like
00:47:16
all the poor kids but only poor black
00:47:18
kids get to go to this Resort for a week
00:47:21
and that might be it might work it might
00:47:23
not work like all of American social the
00:47:26
history of American social reform is
00:47:27
kind of species of that like we're going
00:47:29
to help poor people by doing this or
00:47:31
that that's not what they're doing it's
00:47:32
like hey poor people here are some more
00:47:34
crack pipes and like we're it's immoral
00:47:36
to criticize your drug addiction and
00:47:37
what we need are more black people
00:47:39
selling weed or it's cool to set fires
00:47:42
or we can't criticize you for burning
00:47:43
down Wendy's like what that is not the
00:47:47
same thing that is super dark there's no
00:47:51
even possibility of uplift or
00:47:53
advancement it's just the opposite they
00:47:55
know it these are smart people so like
00:47:56
what are we looking at seriously well
00:47:58
Tucker he's in DUS in DUS mind I'm sure
00:48:01
he believes he's doing the right thing
00:48:04
yeah he thinks he's funding social
00:48:06
justice I think like Soros would be an
00:48:08
even better example right where like
00:48:10
it's hard to argue that what he's
00:48:12
funding is not extremely destructive so
00:48:15
the Revolutionary politics are not
00:48:17
somehow coming from below the way you
00:48:19
would expect a revolution to normally
00:48:21
happen they're being imposed from above
00:48:23
by some of the biggest winners in our
00:48:25
society and that is weird that is a
00:48:27
contradiction not you it is it is a
00:48:30
bizarre outcome let's um it's exactly
00:48:32
what you'd expect and it's exactly what
00:48:34
happened in the Bolshevik Revolution I
00:48:36
mean half of the romanof household the
00:48:39
you know Nicholas II who was murdered
00:48:41
with his wife and children in the
00:48:42
basement as you know by the Bolsheviks
00:48:45
his extended household supported the
00:48:47
Bolsheviks rich people who are a small
00:48:49
minority by the way there are a million
00:48:51
different revolutionary groups at the
00:48:52
end of the first world war in Russia
00:48:54
clearly there was going to be a change
00:48:55
clearly the the monarchy was doomed and
00:48:56
there were a lot of different options
00:48:58
and the most radical crazy nihilistic
00:49:00
atheistic option was the Bolsheviks and
00:49:02
they had the support of the rich people
00:49:04
and like including the Zar family so
00:49:06
like what is that it's the same thing
00:49:08
always the same thing it's the people
00:49:10
with the most have the strongest desire
00:49:13
to kill themselves and their society
00:49:15
that's just true it's an interesting
00:49:16
Theory I mean there are some people who
00:49:18
are very thoughtful right you have Bill
00:49:19
Gates or Jeff Bezos who are thinking
00:49:20
about philanthropy in a very thoughtful
00:49:22
way now they could make mistakes of
00:49:23
course but they're thinking Hey where's
00:49:25
the suffering how do I work backwards
00:49:27
from mosquito T to you know vaccines or
00:49:29
whatever you know we perceive is what
00:49:31
they perceive is is the most suffering
00:49:34
they can relieve in the world so it does
00:49:35
seem like it can go either way Tucker do
00:49:37
you think it's because most people that
00:49:39
get very wealthy very fast feel like it
00:49:42
was unfair and they feel guilty and then
00:49:45
they have to like destroy the system
00:49:46
that got them there I think there's a
00:49:49
lot I think that's such a deep point
00:49:50
though because and you I know that you
00:49:53
know you live of among people I mean
00:49:55
you're familiar with this world so and
00:49:56
only someone who is could say that cuz
00:49:58
you're absolutely right rich people are
00:49:59
not all the same if you meet someone who
00:50:02
made his money incrementally over time
00:50:04
he's much less likely to have the desire
00:50:07
you know you may not agree with him on
00:50:08
everything he may be a good person a bad
00:50:09
person but he doesn't want to tear it
00:50:11
down and he doesn't feel especially
00:50:13
guilty for what he has and I have found
00:50:14
just a non-political point but as I get
00:50:16
older I want to spend less time with
00:50:18
people who hate themselves because
00:50:20
they're not capable of loving other
00:50:22
people like that's not a good place to
00:50:24
start actually as a person to hate
00:50:26
yourself or feel feel super guilty it
00:50:28
really isn't you don't end up helping
00:50:30
others when you feel that way but when
00:50:32
you find people who inherited a lot of
00:50:33
money we never talk about that it's a
00:50:35
huge problem in this country I'm not I'm
00:50:37
not arguing for the death tax at all but
00:50:39
I'm just saying as an observation there
00:50:41
are an aw there's a huge class of people
00:50:43
with massive inherited wealth and
00:50:45
they're almost all horrible not all of
00:50:47
them I mean I know you know very well I
00:50:49
know some of them and they're fine
00:50:50
they're some of them are great but as a
00:50:52
class they're awful and they don't help
00:50:54
at all and they're Al super annoying and
00:50:56
dumb and I think it's the well no it's
00:50:59
just true and everyone knows it's
00:51:01
true we're about to do that for tens of
00:51:03
millions of Americans right you know
00:51:04
like we're about to go the largest
00:51:06
generation of wealth transfer Beyond
00:51:08
imagination we're talking trillions and
00:51:11
trillions and trillions so that problem
00:51:13
that you just encapsulated we're going
00:51:15
to Cascade across tens of millions of
00:51:17
Americans which also happen in Japan I
00:51:20
agree and in Japan they have a negative
00:51:22
growth rate as well let let's pivot to a
00:51:25
to
00:51:25
that can I ask you have you been to
00:51:27
Japan recently yeah I was there last
00:51:30
year okay so me too so so I you know
00:51:33
people you always read like all the
00:51:35
libertarian e economists in the Wall
00:51:37
Street Journal they're always like oh
00:51:38
Japan's a disaster negative growth and
00:51:41
then you go to Japan oh it's the best
00:51:43
place you could ever visit it's my
00:51:45
favorite country hands down did you go
00:51:46
to Tokyo did you go skiing in the Secco
00:51:48
where' you go I went to Koto and Tokyo
00:51:50
and I'll be back to ski on the North
00:51:51
Island because it's like why wouldn't
00:51:52
you it's like the
00:51:54
pero I never have but I'm it's
00:51:56
incredible I went last year it is like
00:51:58
25 out of 30 days in January and
00:52:00
February it dumps powder and the powder
00:52:04
is like dust it it's like makes Utah
00:52:06
powder look like heavy it is insane uh
00:52:09
I'm going back if you want to go
00:52:11
February
00:52:15
inred share a room you guys could have
00:52:18
like one this is gonna make SX lose his
00:52:21
mind if Tucker and I go in a but can I
00:52:24
just ask a question like if if Japan is
00:52:27
is is the butt of every joke that
00:52:29
economists tell or the focus of the
00:52:32
concern of econ you know lots of chin
00:52:33
tugging and threading about Japan's
00:52:35
negative growth economy and then you go
00:52:36
to Japan and there's literally not one
00:52:38
piece of litter and four-year-olds ride
00:52:39
the Subway on a company highest function
00:52:41
Society you could imagine but yet birth
00:52:43
rate is going down that's the only thing
00:52:45
the birth rate is a real thing I totally
00:52:47
agree that's probably the product of
00:52:48
getting atomic bombs dropped on you or
00:52:50
and maybe the fact also that like the
00:52:52
highest testosterone males flew their
00:52:54
planes into US Air craft carriers or
00:52:56
whatever I there's probably a lot of
00:52:57
reason but it well that's a real thing
00:53:00
by the way you kill all the high te
00:53:01
males in your Society changes but but I
00:53:04
don't think that we're using the right
00:53:05
measurements and I do think that we're
00:53:07
taking economists a little more
00:53:08
seriously than they deserve because
00:53:10
they're not describing what Japan
00:53:12
actually is which is freaking awesome
00:53:14
and way more functional than our society
00:53:16
despite the massive disparity and grow
00:53:18
you find is every person in Japan takes
00:53:20
their job that they're doing as
00:53:22
incredibly important and has massive
00:53:24
pride in it why when you go there as an
00:53:26
American you're like wait wasn't this
00:53:28
what America was about it's it's it's
00:53:30
really shocking as American because
00:53:31
you're like this is what I want Society
00:53:33
to be I want the person who works in the
00:53:34
Subway or the stock market or the
00:53:36
newspaper to take their job deadly
00:53:38
serious and put their best effort in why
00:53:41
I care about growth rate wait but hold
00:53:42
on why should I care about economic
00:53:45
growth at least as measured in the
00:53:48
conventional sense the only reason is if
00:53:49
you have a lot of debt that's it yes if
00:53:52
if if you didn't have all the debt you
00:53:54
don't care about it you shouldn't care
00:53:55
about economic growth rate with respect
00:53:56
to the measure of prosperity
00:53:58
strange also you know if the pie isn't
00:54:01
getting bigger and people aren't doing
00:54:03
better than that does sew the seeds for
00:54:06
a revolution I mean yeah all this
00:54:08
divisiveness will start to explode if
00:54:11
people don't feel like their
00:54:12
circumstances are getting better off
00:54:14
this is where I mean in this in this one
00:54:16
limited way I guess I'd be in favor of
00:54:18
Rapid change which is the technological
00:54:21
area I mean I'm against revolutionary
00:54:23
politics I'm against that kind of
00:54:25
revolutionary change because it almost
00:54:26
never works out but I do think that
00:54:28
revolutionary change in the narrow
00:54:30
category of technology is ultimately
00:54:33
good for us I know it creates challenges
00:54:35
I know it creates disruption people do
00:54:38
lose their jobs and have to find new
00:54:39
ones but it is the basis for American
00:54:42
prosperity and the basis for our economy
00:54:44
being productive and America having a
00:54:46
powerful military and all those things
00:54:47
so I don't know if this is a difference
00:54:49
between us Tucker but I do think that in
00:54:53
this area of technological change I'm
00:54:55
not sort of a dispositional conservative
00:54:57
Ian this is kind of like like Peter teal
00:54:58
right I don't want us to slow down I
00:55:00
actually I want us to be successful and
00:55:03
it and it feels like actually it's the
00:55:05
people on the left who are generally in
00:55:07
this Camp of wanting to slow us down and
00:55:11
meire Us in regulations and make it
00:55:13
harder to um make progress
00:55:16
technologically uh because it's
00:55:18
something they don't control I I agree
00:55:19
with that I just I guess the net result
00:55:22
is what I care about I think it's if you
00:55:24
talk to old people people which I is now
00:55:27
that I'm getting older and I've talked
00:55:28
to you know older relatives and stuff
00:55:30
like what what bothers you and I used to
00:55:31
think it was you know taking a leak six
00:55:33
times a night but it's really not the
00:55:36
thing that bothers old people I've
00:55:37
spoken to anyway is the change is like
00:55:40
they don't just don't recognize it and
00:55:42
that's really hard for people to deal
00:55:43
with and so all I'm saying I'm certainly
00:55:46
not calling for a halt to technological
00:55:47
progress that would be terrible all I'm
00:55:50
saying is in tandem with those
00:55:52
advancements should be the concern about
00:55:56
people's ability to digest massive
00:55:58
change and like let's keep some things
00:56:00
the same you know you just can't change
00:56:02
everything it's like bad it's super bad
00:56:04
so like maybe we get AI but let's keep
00:56:07
Halloween so you're arguing for
00:56:09
tradition and things that bring bring
00:56:11
people together this country was built
00:56:14
off of uh immigrants obviously and uh
00:56:17
this is one of the most polarizing
00:56:18
issues Tucker in each election cycle and
00:56:22
in the country uh large right now now
00:56:25
what do you what is your vision for how
00:56:28
American Immigration should work here in
00:56:31
the 21st
00:56:33
century ideally or right now right now
00:56:36
and and then ideally let's start with
00:56:38
what would you do right now short term
00:56:40
actually let me if you don't if you
00:56:41
don't mind I'll quickly invert it and
00:56:42
say of course the goal is just a is just
00:56:44
a rational immigration policy whose
00:56:46
purpose is to help your country what
00:56:48
would that so I could see well I could
00:56:50
see an argument for example if you
00:56:51
needed you know I don't know there there
00:56:53
was a time for the guy who was just my
00:56:55
college roommate my best friend um came
00:56:57
to this country from India because both
00:56:59
his parents were Physicians and there
00:57:01
was a lack of Physicians with
00:57:03
de-industrialization everyone was moving
00:57:04
out of the small towns and so we
00:57:06
expedited the Visas of foreign
00:57:08
Physicians most of them were Indians I
00:57:09
think most were Indians his parents
00:57:11
actually came from Africa but whatever
00:57:12
the point is they're Indian doctors and
00:57:14
they came here and they settled in a
00:57:16
little town in Massachusetts a rural
00:57:18
Town dying miltown and it was great it
00:57:21
was great for them it was great for the
00:57:23
town the guy my best friend I mean like
00:57:26
it that's just that's what you want
00:57:27
right we need this and we're going to in
00:57:29
a very smart intentional way um try to
00:57:32
get it on the World Market and we can we
00:57:35
will and I'm totally for that what we're
00:57:37
doing now is throwing open the doors to
00:57:40
anyone who wants to come here from the
00:57:41
poorest countries in the world at a
00:57:43
scale that we can't possibly digest so
00:57:45
how many people are here illegally
00:57:47
working off the books some estimates 60
00:57:49
70 million those are real estimates by
00:57:51
the way not crackpot estimates but the
00:57:53
truth is we don't know we've no no idea
00:57:55
we've completely lost control and we
00:57:57
don't know who these people are I
00:58:00
honestly think most of them are here for
00:58:01
a better life I believe that I think
00:58:02
most of them are probably good people I
00:58:03
think most of them agree with my
00:58:04
politics actually for whatever it's
00:58:06
worth definitely much more than the
00:58:08
private unhappy private Equity wives do
00:58:10
for sure the average guy from Nigeria is
00:58:13
like on my side every Salvadoran agrees
00:58:15
with me so I like that but I also think
00:58:18
it's too much actually at exactly the
00:58:21
moment when native born Americans birth
00:58:23
rates are tanking over 100,000 people
00:58:26
die of fental ODS and we're pushing
00:58:29
euthanasia on the population which we
00:58:31
are you're you basically you're saying
00:58:34
you I've given up on the people who live
00:58:35
here whatever their color or background
00:58:37
and we're just going to import new
00:58:38
people and replace them with new people
00:58:39
that's literally what's happening and
00:58:41
when you say that out loud they freak
00:58:42
out and call you some sort of craz bigot
00:58:44
for saying the word replacement but
00:58:46
that's what it is it's happening in
00:58:48
Western Europe and Ireland particularly
00:58:50
that's what those those riots were about
00:58:52
not that I'm endorsing the riots but
00:58:53
that's what that was and that's like
00:58:55
insane for a government to do to its own
00:58:57
people it's just it's totally insane and
00:59:00
and more than anything it is an
00:59:02
expression of loathing for the people
00:59:05
who live there it's a delution of their
00:59:07
political power it's a delution of their
00:59:08
economic power it's the total
00:59:10
Destruction of the basic services that
00:59:12
they paid for like schools hospitals
00:59:14
roads like those are gone so the last
00:59:17
thing I'll say is people say well
00:59:19
immigrants are coming here looking for a
00:59:21
better life and I believe that having
00:59:23
talked to a lot of immigrants and grown
00:59:24
up around them in Southern California I
00:59:25
totally believe that but the question
00:59:27
for government is am I making the
00:59:30
citizens life better it's like no one
00:59:32
even thinks that so is importing people
00:59:34
making the life so when my friend's
00:59:37
parents came both Physicians to the
00:59:39
little town little miltown in New
00:59:40
England his parents made the town better
00:59:43
for the people who live there they were
00:59:44
the doctors and they were super
00:59:46
successful actually and great people
00:59:48
Tucker can you give us a rundown of the
00:59:51
current political landscape just tell us
00:59:53
I'm just really curious what you think
00:59:54
about RFK Biden Trump VI maybe like 10
00:59:59
15 seconds on each it's so hard it's so
01:00:01
hard I
01:00:04
mean uh I I mean the thing that jumps
01:00:07
out today my view changes all the time
01:00:08
and I don't think Biden can be the
01:00:10
nominee his only point was
01:00:12
to you know stop Bernie Sanders
01:00:15
basically and he's uh outlift his
01:00:17
usefulness so I think he'll be I'm
01:00:19
pretty sure he'll be replaced but um as
01:00:20
on the rep on the Republican side and
01:00:22
the independence you know it's so hard
01:00:24
to know I'm just mesmerized by the love
01:00:26
for Nikki Haley who's like the most and
01:00:30
I'm s and like for example I saw Jamie
01:00:32
Diamond who who I really like and I know
01:00:35
and I have always admired but when Jamie
01:00:37
Diamond starts like freeballing on you
01:00:40
know Nikki Haley and saying nonsensical
01:00:41
things about Nikki Haley I'm like I want
01:00:43
to call him and say you're humiliating
01:00:44
yourself first of all you're way out of
01:00:45
your depth you have no idea what you're
01:00:46
talking about but for another you're
01:00:48
just betraying how completely out of
01:00:50
touch you were and I think Jamie got and
01:00:52
again I say this with admiration for
01:00:53
Jamie Diamond which is long held but
01:00:56
like if you get to a place where you
01:00:58
think that Nikki Haley has a shot of
01:01:00
getting elected in a free and fair
01:01:01
election like you have no idea what's
01:01:03
going on in your own country it's just
01:01:04
embarrassing to say that super
01:01:06
embarrassing explain to the audience
01:01:08
unpack that why is
01:01:09
n it really it's not personal I actually
01:01:12
don't care for Nikki Haley as a person
01:01:13
but that's IMM material Nikki Haley's
01:01:16
program what she stands for what she
01:01:18
believes maybe moral or immoral God Old
01:01:21
Judge it's not popular with the with the
01:01:23
public and it's super easy hers on war
01:01:26
specifically yeah her stands on war and
01:01:27
on economics and and we know that from
01:01:30
looking at the Gallop poll which is a
01:01:31
rolling survey of people's attitudes on
01:01:33
things and in an actual democracy you
01:01:36
would see the leading candidates or
01:01:37
people who hope to become leading
01:01:38
candidates articulate concerns and lay
01:01:42
out views that reflected the concerns of
01:01:45
the population who were going to vote
01:01:46
them into office n the most right now
01:01:50
well Trump is it fair to say Nikki Haley
01:01:52
is basically an unreconstructed bush
01:01:54
Republican I mean her views are
01:01:56
basically the same views as George W
01:01:58
bush she wants to get us in all sorts of
01:02:00
new Wars and I don't even think she
01:02:01
regrets the forever Wars of the Middle
01:02:04
East that were so disastrous I I haven't
01:02:06
heard one word of criticism from her or
01:02:09
remorse that she supported all those
01:02:10
things and on the economic policies is
01:02:13
kind of this like
01:02:14
corporatism it's like the whole Trump
01:02:17
Rebellion never even happened in the
01:02:19
Republican party it's just like it's
01:02:20
just like right back to the past and the
01:02:22
fact that the establish sort of
01:02:25
coalescing around her kind of tells me
01:02:28
that as much as I didn't want to believe
01:02:30
this I think that Trump is still the
01:02:31
indispensible figure in the Republican
01:02:34
party because if you take him away
01:02:37
they're going to revert right back to
01:02:39
where they were they're going to exactly
01:02:40
go right back to the factory settings on
01:02:42
Republicans which is Bush republicanism
01:02:44
Tucker can you just finish the rest of
01:02:46
them RFK VI Trump well I mean I you know
01:02:50
I know VI well personally and I I'm I'm
01:02:54
it's shows I'm out of touch too I mean
01:02:55
you know I'm 54 so I don't have my
01:02:57
finger on every pulse um but so I like
01:03:00
vake actually and and but I see these
01:03:03
surveys where he's not you know he's not
01:03:04
doing well and people don't like his
01:03:05
personality or whatever he's he's a
01:03:08
little overbearing that never bothers me
01:03:10
at all I'm just not put off by that at
01:03:11
all and I'm a little bit confused by why
01:03:14
he's not doing better again that's a
01:03:16
reflection on I've just made fun of
01:03:18
Jamie Diamond here I am doing it myself
01:03:20
like why isn't V doing better I'm sure
01:03:22
there are reasons I just don't I think
01:03:24
his program is solid I think he's
01:03:25
reasonable I think he's smart I don't
01:03:27
think he has some creepy agenda um so
01:03:31
but he's not he's not doing well that's
01:03:32
just a fact uh Bobby Kennedy I know
01:03:36
quite well and and think a lot of him
01:03:39
and uh he's a very he's I think he's a
01:03:40
decent man and a principled person I
01:03:43
think he's smart um you know I'm I I
01:03:47
don't have quite as much confidence in
01:03:49
maybe some of the people around him I'm
01:03:51
not I feel like maybe there are other
01:03:53
agendas that he's not aware of you know
01:03:55
I don't know I can't assess but uh yeah
01:03:59
so that's what I think president Trump
01:04:01
well I mean you know the New York Times
01:04:03
had a a piece I think it was Jonathan
01:04:05
Swan um who's smart and uh had a a piece
01:04:09
telling you what you already knew kind
01:04:10
of but proving it with numbers that
01:04:12
Trump became the nominee in August of
01:04:15
last year
01:04:16
2022 when the FBI went through his
01:04:19
wife's underwear drawer in his house
01:04:20
like that was so insane that even if
01:04:22
you're like I can't deal with more Trump
01:04:24
and he didn't actually do anything and
01:04:25
he put Jared in charge you know like
01:04:27
there are lots of frustrations you could
01:04:28
have about Trump if you supported Trump
01:04:30
and you could be disappointed but the
01:04:32
second the FBI raids his house on a
01:04:35
documents charge and anyone from
01:04:37
Washington as I am can tell you that's
01:04:39
like insane like every that's like so
01:04:42
common it's not if they're charging him
01:04:44
for that that's a joke where are the
01:04:46
felonies he supposedly committed I was
01:04:48
led to believe he like murdered people
01:04:49
and buried them in the Meadowlands do
01:04:52
you know what I mean like that's the
01:04:54
best they got when they did that I I
01:04:57
know for a fact and this piece showed it
01:04:59
but I knew it already a lot of people
01:05:00
are like you know I have mix feelings
01:05:02
about Trump or I don't want to deal with
01:05:03
more Trump drama but if this is allowed
01:05:06
to happen our system won't continue
01:05:08
that's so outrageous that I mean let's
01:05:11
just stop lying about it that's a
01:05:12
political prosecution you can't have
01:05:14
that of the presidential front runner
01:05:17
you can't have that we already did it
01:05:18
with Nixon you can't do that again and
01:05:21
so I think that's the key to his surge I
01:05:23
really do think that who's the
01:05:24
Democratic nominee if you think Biden's
01:05:26
not going to be oh it's Gavin Gavin
01:05:28
Gavin for sure well of course cuz he's
01:05:30
by far the most evil person in the
01:05:32
Democratic party and in the end they
01:05:34
just sort of rise to the peak you know
01:05:37
oil and water man he
01:05:39
just yeah Tucker just just comment on
01:05:42
Gavin uh vetoing the bill that said that
01:05:46
you could kind of remove the parents
01:05:48
remove the child from the parents if the
01:05:50
parents don't affirm the transgender
01:05:51
rights of the child that I think there
01:05:53
was a a lot of folks who sit in your
01:05:55
Camp typically who were shocked and
01:05:57
surprised and said wow I didn't know
01:05:59
Gavin actually you know had a stand had
01:06:01
a span of opinions and this is
01:06:03
interesting to see I mean what's what
01:06:05
like there's no one I know who thought
01:06:07
that um and everyone I know who watched
01:06:09
that thought the same thing they thought
01:06:11
when he met was G which is oh he's he's
01:06:13
going to be the nominee yeah I of course
01:06:15
that's what that was I mean I know I
01:06:17
know Gavin Nome and um you know I think
01:06:20
a lot about Gavin Nome uh many different
01:06:23
things about Gavin but one thing I know
01:06:24
for a fact about Gavin Newsome is he has
01:06:27
the capacity to beat a light lie
01:06:28
detector test Gavin Newsome will say
01:06:31
anything he needs to say and not like
01:06:34
Biden's not like this actually whatever
01:06:36
Biden's fault he's not like this like
01:06:37
Biden would you know he has like guilt
01:06:40
if he's lying to you he gets Twitchy
01:06:43
Gavin nome's Palms don't sweat his
01:06:46
respiration doesn't increase his body
01:06:48
temperature doesn't change nothing
01:06:50
changes in Gavin new when he lies to
01:06:51
your face and they're not that many
01:06:54
people like that actually that's a rare
01:06:56
quality like to lock down the state to
01:06:59
keep people's kids from getting an
01:07:00
education and to arrest people for
01:07:02
surfing and then go have dinner at The
01:07:04
French Laundry like most people couldn't
01:07:07
do that they' just be like you're saying
01:07:08
he's a sociopath just he can lie and not
01:07:11
care I'm not a psychiatrist but I so I
01:07:14
don't know that I don't really know the
01:07:15
category and I'm not going to diagnose
01:07:16
him but I'll just say in 50 years of
01:07:18
being around a lot of people I've met
01:07:21
very few who can behave that way very
01:07:23
very few it's very usual quality and of
01:07:24
course it's probably useful in politics
01:07:27
is he electable is he electable yeah
01:07:29
exactly are the American people going to
01:07:30
see that the way that you see it or well
01:07:33
as you know the system in California
01:07:34
does not include elections I mean it has
01:07:36
nothing to do with what the people think
01:07:38
it's a it's a machine State it's the
01:07:40
most corrupt out of 50 KLA Harris was
01:07:43
like despised by most Californians and
01:07:45
she you know was a sitting us Senator
01:07:48
Diane poor Diane Feinstein my neighbor
01:07:49
in Washington I don't I don't think she
01:07:51
was a horrible person just for the
01:07:52
record but she was non-comp Menace and
01:07:55
like she could have lived well beyond
01:07:56
her death as a US senator so it's like
01:07:59
it's not a democratic State small D
01:08:01
Democratic State it's not run on the
01:08:03
basis of what the population wants it's
01:08:05
a fixed game in California and so it
01:08:07
does make me very uncomfortable that
01:08:09
someone from that political culture
01:08:12
which is an utterly corrupt political
01:08:14
culture an authoritarian political
01:08:16
culture could like enter a presidential
01:08:18
race cuz like clearly what are you
01:08:21
running on if you're Gavin Nome as
01:08:23
native
01:08:24
Californian uh you know I know what the
01:08:26
state was like in 1985 cuz I live there
01:08:29
and it's completely degraded from that
01:08:32
from that time and like how did that
01:08:34
happen well part of the big reason the
01:08:36
big reason is the political leadership
01:08:38
in the state you've got nothing to run
01:08:39
on what are you running have you driven
01:08:41
through La recently like seriously so
01:08:44
the fact that he would get in the race
01:08:47
suggests you know they think that they
01:08:49
can win without the consent of Voters
01:08:52
and that freaks me out
01:08:54
well he'll have the media working on
01:08:55
overdrive for him right I mean they will
01:08:58
turn him somehow into like John F
01:09:00
Kennedy or something I mean they will
01:09:02
paper over all of his flaws and they'll
01:09:05
you know they'll basically write puff
01:09:07
pieces it'll it'll be like Non-Stop and
01:09:09
then they'll be attacking Trump so the
01:09:10
media will put him over the top I think
01:09:12
if he well assuming that we have the
01:09:14
same media that we had in 2020 that's
01:09:17
true but I mean that's why you just got
01:09:19
to pray every night for elon's health
01:09:21
and I mean it too I mean it it's the
01:09:23
only platform at scale in the world
01:09:26
that's pretty you know there's
01:09:27
censorship on it but there's not mass
01:09:29
censorship actually there isn't
01:09:33
and that's the only platform of its kind
01:09:36
at scale it's the only one so let's talk
01:09:38
about that actually so I mean we've
01:09:39
talked in this conversation about how
01:09:41
our public discourse is anain and
01:09:45
self-destructive and divisive I would
01:09:48
add another word to that which is
01:09:50
controlled you know controlled um a good
01:09:53
example of this I think was just on the
01:09:55
Ukraine war David aramia who is
01:09:59
zelinsky's parliamentary leader who was
01:10:02
the lead negotiator for the ukrainians
01:10:04
at Istanbul in the first month of the
01:10:06
war when there was a deal on the table
01:10:08
he just testified basically said in an
01:10:10
interview there was a deal on the table
01:10:12
to shut the war down we just would have
01:10:13
had to agree to make Ukraine neutral and
01:10:16
of course the Biden ministration told
01:10:18
them not to this war is and has always
01:10:21
been about NATO expansion and yet the
01:10:23
party line from the media even as all of
01:10:26
these proof points stack up I mean we're
01:10:28
now on like the 10th person firsthand
01:10:30
witness to say that this is what this
01:10:33
war is all about you still can't get the
01:10:35
media to honestly report this just as
01:10:38
one example okay and I I believe that
01:10:40
this is one of the reasons why you were
01:10:41
a fire Tucker is because you were
01:10:43
literally the only person on mainstream
01:10:46
Network news saying what the war is
01:10:49
really about so this is like one really
01:10:51
big example is that we cannot get any
01:10:53
truth on an issue as big as Ukraine war
01:10:56
so I guess my question for you is like
01:10:59
how does control like that happen like I
01:11:02
I don't really understand it myself we
01:11:03
live in a big what's supposed to be a
01:11:05
big democracy there's supposed to be you
01:11:07
know a lot of uh media channels but yet
01:11:10
they all enforce a certain narrative on
01:11:14
pretty much every issue but even you
01:11:16
know again I'm picking on I think one of
01:11:18
the biggest issues right now which is
01:11:19
this war we've got going on I mean how
01:11:21
does that happen I I don't understand it
01:11:23
how do they maintain that control this
01:11:25
is one of my personal concerns about
01:11:27
technology and about progress of all
01:11:30
kinds which is you don't actually know
01:11:31
where it's going you don't I mean your
01:11:33
best forecasts are mine have very often
01:11:35
been wrong and the you know of course
01:11:36
the promise of the internet was
01:11:39
diversity and access to information from
01:11:41
a lot of different sources unfiltered
01:11:43
information you can talk to people in
01:11:45
foreign countries for free you know
01:11:47
every American will have an encyclopedia
01:11:50
at his fingertips and people are going
01:11:51
to be much more informed um um and no
01:11:54
one will be able to control it because
01:11:56
it's it's free and open and and the
01:11:58
effect has been you know the opposite
01:11:59
there's less I I would argue there's
01:12:01
been uh less Freedom uh in information
01:12:06
than there was 30 years ago how did that
01:12:09
happen I mean that's it's a very comp I
01:12:10
mean you guys are much better situated
01:12:11
to answer that question someone should
01:12:12
think about that I think but the bottom
01:12:14
line is there are just not that many
01:12:16
pipelines actually you know in
01:12:18
television there were three big news
01:12:19
channels cable you know broadcast kind
01:12:22
of receded an importance it's mostly
01:12:23
about prostate health now and um so
01:12:26
there three big channels two of them on
01:12:28
one side one was on the other and then
01:12:30
there were the social media Giants but
01:12:31
there are not that many of them and they
01:12:33
were all locked down and they were all
01:12:34
riddled with
01:12:36
Intel in some cases actual saled Intel
01:12:40
officers Matt Tai's amazing reporting
01:12:42
has shown this not just American either
01:12:44
from foreign countries the whole thing
01:12:45
was an OP it was insane and um and you
01:12:49
know you could I'm not going to beat up
01:12:50
on Fox news but there was a kind of an
01:12:53
fairly narrow band of acceptable views
01:12:55
allowed on that channel is that control
01:12:57
yes it is and so there there really was
01:12:59
no remaining place with scale where
01:13:02
someone with a dissenting view could
01:13:04
give it voice and that's just crazy it's
01:13:07
the opposite of what we were promised
01:13:09
but whatever not to whine about it but
01:13:10
the existence of X where anyone around
01:13:14
the world or in most countries anyway
01:13:15
can get for free a whole range of
01:13:18
opinions that aren't controlled that
01:13:21
changes everything like the the the
01:13:24
Primacy of control of information in a
01:13:26
war cannot be overstated like that's you
01:13:29
can debate whether it's more important
01:13:30
than ammunition but it's right up there
01:13:32
you know and um so I think this election
01:13:35
if that platform stays free for the next
01:13:37
12 months you know I think we have a
01:13:40
shot at at least of a real election but
01:13:41
if it does and I think they're going to
01:13:43
do whatever they can to shut it down we
01:13:44
also have web- based shows podcasts and
01:13:47
that even predated a little bit Elon
01:13:49
taking over you know X there's there is
01:13:52
a self-correcting mechanism here if you
01:13:54
feel too controlled like maybe perhaps
01:13:56
you felt or you felt pressure at Fox I
01:14:00
don't want speak for you if you did then
01:14:02
all of a sudden Joe Rogan Allin podcast
01:14:04
whatever podcasts all emerg and now your
01:14:07
show on X and I'm sure it's going to be
01:14:09
on other platforms as well maybe you
01:14:10
could speak to what you think the impact
01:14:13
of a post Fox Tucker Carlson show will
01:14:17
be and how will you be able to sort of
01:14:21
shape the show differently if at all and
01:14:23
the mission here that was my first
01:14:24
question we never really got to which is
01:14:26
post Fox post money post Fame what is
01:14:30
Tucker Carlson's mission statement going
01:14:32
forward what is your goal just the same
01:14:34
the same as before and I should just be
01:14:36
extra clear I I wish I could tell horror
01:14:39
stories about Fox you know forcing me to
01:14:41
take some line or other but they they
01:14:42
really
01:14:43
didn't but you know they didn't want the
01:14:45
show anymore so that kind of tells you
01:14:47
but anyway the point is uh my intent in
01:14:50
hosting that show is the same as my
01:14:52
intent in hosting the show we're about
01:14:53
to launch on X which is you know do your
01:14:56
best to say what you think is true bring
01:14:59
perspectives and information that you
01:15:00
don't think are widely covered to a
01:15:02
larger audience and you know try and
01:15:04
stay firm in that admit when you're
01:15:06
wrong like just be honest it's it's
01:15:08
actually not it's you know I got in this
01:15:10
business because I hadn't graduated from
01:15:12
college and my father's like it's it's a
01:15:14
pretty pure meritocracy in journalism
01:15:16
you should do it and it's also pretty
01:15:18
simple no no real skills required just
01:15:20
be literate which I was and is the show
01:15:22
going to evolve a little bit because
01:15:23
you've been doing this experiment you've
01:15:25
done about 40 episodes well here's the
01:15:26
way here's the way that it already has
01:15:28
evolved so I I got laid off in in April
01:15:31
and I you know I like to I like to fish
01:15:34
and bird hunt so I did a lot of that and
01:15:35
then I was like H I need to do something
01:15:37
so I've been stuck in a studio for all
01:15:40
these you know many many years I
01:15:42
couldn't really go anywhere and I went I
01:15:44
took seven foreign trips in four months
01:15:46
I just went to all these places where I
01:15:47
knew people I was interested in what was
01:15:49
going on and I just found it amazing two
01:15:51
things I found amazing one the view of
01:15:54
America the Vantage you get from a
01:15:56
foreign country on what's happening in
01:15:57
your own is completely different there's
01:15:59
also a lot the whole world is
01:16:00
reshuffling in my view after the Ukraine
01:16:03
war February 2022 really did change a
01:16:06
lot um particularly with respect to
01:16:08
America's place in the world that's
01:16:10
worth covering and the second thing I
01:16:11
learned once I started putting videos up
01:16:13
on X was that it's International I mean
01:16:17
I was just shocked by that I mean
01:16:18
because think about it I mean I'm
01:16:19
working for a US News Channel it's one
01:16:22
of three US news channels I've worked
01:16:23
for CNN was International but I was on
01:16:25
CNN us so I'm just used to thinking
01:16:27
about America being viewed by Americans
01:16:29
having a conversation about this country
01:16:31
I had no experience at all of a of an of
01:16:34
a big International audience and that
01:16:37
platform has that and so I was amazed by
01:16:40
that and so um we're going to continue
01:16:42
to cover the rest of the world I'm going
01:16:45
over to Dubai in February
01:16:48
interviewing heads of state over it's
01:16:50
just so it's just so interesting there
01:16:53
going on it's like crazy people and this
01:16:55
is not a political point this is like a
01:16:57
human point that bothers me almost more
01:16:59
than anything politically which is the
01:17:01
death of curiosity it's like people are
01:17:04
not curious like what the hell I thought
01:17:06
the technological Revolution would would
01:17:08
set off like explosions in the brain of
01:17:10
every person like what is that I want to
01:17:12
learn more and it had exactly the
01:17:13
opposite it's like L me to sleep with
01:17:16
Tik Tok don't tell me more I don't want
01:17:17
to dble double down on what you already
01:17:19
know what you already believe over and
01:17:20
over and
01:17:22
over know I'm less certain in my beliefs
01:17:25
I know that I know less than any time of
01:17:27
my life and I'm much more interested in
01:17:29
many more things than I've ever been I
01:17:31
think that's normal and I think there's
01:17:33
something like in the water or something
01:17:34
that's making people not care the UFO
01:17:37
thing like what whatever you views of
01:17:39
that like well what is that shut up and
01:17:42
that's normal people don't want to hear
01:17:43
it why I don't know whatever I don't
01:17:45
want to preach I mean postco we still
01:17:47
don't have an accounting of what
01:17:49
happened and do what do you think about
01:17:51
the the the clip yesterday of Elon let's
01:17:54
play it for 45 seconds and then get your
01:17:56
response talker Carson apology tour if
01:18:00
you will that this had been said online
01:18:03
there was all of the criticism there was
01:18:04
advertisers leaving we talked to Bob
01:18:06
Iger stop you hope uh don't advertise
01:18:11
you don't want them to advertise no what
01:18:13
do you
01:18:15
mean if somebody's going to try to
01:18:17
Blackmail me with advertising blackmail
01:18:18
me with money go [ __ ]
01:18:21
yourself
01:18:25
but go [ __ ]
01:18:28
yourself is that
01:18:30
clear I hope it is hey Bob here in the
01:18:34
audience well well let me ask you
01:18:38
then that's how I feel all right Tucker
01:18:40
your response to the good for you the
01:18:42
old G FY I mean I interviewed people
01:18:48
every week for over 30 years and so I
01:18:50
know what it is to interview dro My
01:18:53
Perry excuse me and I know you know I
01:18:54
know I have a lot of experience
01:18:55
interviewing people and I've interviewed
01:18:56
Elon you know and I don't understand how
01:18:59
the the New York Times character fussy
01:19:01
little guy from The New York Times like
01:19:02
how could you not laugh like what he
01:19:05
just told Bob ier to [ __ ]
01:19:07
himself don't get me started you and I
01:19:09
are in say Andrew rorin is amongst the
01:19:12
weakest of moderators and interviewers
01:19:14
but he's just what a what a fussy little
01:19:16
douche like that's the moment just like
01:19:19
you erupt total like are you joking Elon
01:19:23
Musk just told Bob haer to [ __ ] himself
01:19:26
like I'd be texting my wife unable I
01:19:29
know um no of course I love it I love it
01:19:32
I I am in the Iger thing I you know I
01:19:36
don't hate Bob Iger or anything but like
01:19:38
I keep hearing from people you know
01:19:40
mutual people I know who know Bob Ager
01:19:42
very well that he's like very serious
01:19:43
about running for president and it's
01:19:45
like if you really think if you're bober
01:19:47
you can run for president you have
01:19:48
anything to offer people or they want
01:19:50
you to be president like you're pretty
01:19:51
out of touch so I like that
01:19:53
but you know big picture I'm I'm really
01:19:57
I'm not just saying this because it it
01:19:59
you know aligns with my interest of some
01:20:00
kind I mean it I'm worried about the
01:20:03
pressure that's brought to bear on that
01:20:05
platform on this platform on X because
01:20:07
it's the only one the only big one you
01:20:10
know huge one international one tens of
01:20:12
millions of people hundreds of millions
01:20:13
of people like they have to they meaning
01:20:16
the people who would like to maintain
01:20:17
the status quo kind of have to shut it
01:20:20
down and I am just so hoping that you
01:20:26
know I can help in any way and that all
01:20:28
decent people whatever their views add
01:20:31
their voice to a chorus that says no you
01:20:33
can't shut down the one big Free Speech
01:20:36
platform in the world you can't do that
01:20:38
because then it's just dictatorship
01:20:39
you're not free if you don't have free
01:20:41
information and you can't say what you
01:20:42
really think you are subject to a lot of
01:20:44
these advertising attacks they they went
01:20:47
after Fox and your show specifically and
01:20:49
and and it worked they got people to not
01:20:51
advertise on
01:20:53
yeah so these advertising boycotts do
01:20:55
Work Media Matters whatever you
01:20:57
whoever's doing them so I'm curious what
01:21:00
you see the business model being for
01:21:01
your show and then how you hope to be
01:21:04
resistant to it are you going to just go
01:21:05
straight up subscription and hope that
01:21:07
half your audience or 10% of your
01:21:09
audience pays and you put half out for
01:21:11
free half out for sub what are you
01:21:12
thinking you got to have a subscription
01:21:14
component to it and of course we're
01:21:17
selling ads against our content um and
01:21:21
we'll be doing that on x and on
01:21:23
tuckercarlson.com where we'll be hosting
01:21:25
the sub the subscription part of it um
01:21:28
of course we're selling ads we're you
01:21:30
know we'll have Network ads too I mean
01:21:32
there are lots of different things you
01:21:33
can do um but in the end you you have to
01:21:38
have some subscription component if
01:21:39
you're going to do it at scale I mean we
01:21:41
brought our whole staff almost our whole
01:21:42
staff from Fox with us so we got a bunch
01:21:45
of people we've got you know bigger
01:21:48
Ambitions than have been on display so
01:21:49
far and um and we you know you got to
01:21:53
have more information and and I would
01:21:56
just say this about just having been in
01:21:58
this one business my whole life the
01:22:00
range of stories is the problem it's not
01:22:03
that the stories are all totally
01:22:05
dishonest some are dishonest but some
01:22:07
are not they're technically true but
01:22:09
they're taken from such a small pot of
01:22:13
stories that it's like it's crazy
01:22:14
there's all this stuff going on and it's
01:22:16
just not I mean I was completely
01:22:18
obsessed and remain obsessed with the
01:22:21
industrial sabotage of the northstream
01:22:23
pipeline it's like that's like that's
01:22:25
that's a major historical event like you
01:22:27
just you just ended the EU you just
01:22:30
hobbled the economic engine of Europe
01:22:32
which is Germany and like who did that
01:22:35
and there were like very few stories on
01:22:37
that that's like a very big deal and
01:22:40
again back to the Curiosity thing but
01:22:41
it's more than that it's like they
01:22:43
people sort of know what where not to go
01:22:46
and I just feel like that's first of all
01:22:48
that's soul death you're not a free man
01:22:52
if you're that constrained in your
01:22:54
thinking if you're letting somebody else
01:22:55
tell you what you're allowed to think
01:22:57
how can your wife how can your wife even
01:22:58
sleep with you at that point she no one
01:23:00
can respect you if you live like that A
01:23:03
B you can't have a democracy you can't
01:23:05
have a free country under those
01:23:06
circumstances so I don't think I'm
01:23:08
overstating it and so we're going to try
01:23:10
to I hope be one of many different
01:23:13
similar efforts to just add to the sum
01:23:16
total of information an analysis of that
01:23:17
information well the end of the end of
01:23:19
democracy and sex would be kind of rough
01:23:21
I think yeah go ahead J yeah yeah I have
01:23:23
a final question and and I'm not trying
01:23:25
to be a conspiracy
01:23:27
theorist
01:23:29
but if one of the presidential
01:23:32
candidates called you and said Tucker be
01:23:34
my
01:23:35
VP and replace kamla Harris I mean I
01:23:38
don't think I could do that she's a
01:23:40
historic first Tucker would you consider
01:23:43
it if Donald Trump gave you that call
01:23:45
well of course I would consider it I'd
01:23:47
can I mean you have no idea how
01:23:49
open-minded I am I would consider
01:23:51
anything
01:23:53
but I mean the truth is I kind of don't
01:23:56
respect people who do stuff like that I
01:23:59
really believe I've got a lot of
01:24:00
theories which I will not inflict on you
01:24:01
but which I do inflict on my own four
01:24:03
children and my main theory of life is
01:24:06
that you should do what you are designed
01:24:07
to do I don't believe this whole you can
01:24:09
be whatever you want to be thing I think
01:24:11
it's a absurd lie I think we're made for
01:24:13
certain things we have certain aptitudes
01:24:15
they're inborn they can we can hone them
01:24:17
and we need to through practice
01:24:20
repetition but it's very
01:24:23
I I think it's a it's it's a sign of
01:24:24
hubris which is always the death of
01:24:26
particularly of men huis thinking you
01:24:28
have more power than you do when midlife
01:24:31
you're like well actually what I really
01:24:33
want to do is direct it's like you just
01:24:34
one best actress honey go back to acting
01:24:37
and I've never been involved in politics
01:24:39
I've never I I haven't even voted in all
01:24:42
elections I'm serious so like the idea
01:24:44
that I'm going to at 54 like run for
01:24:47
national office I is a
01:24:49
little you know what I mean like I don't
01:24:51
take my quite that seriously I mean I I
01:24:54
can't imagine doing something like that
01:24:55
Reas I ask question is that if we're at
01:24:58
least the the Republicans will now prove
01:25:01
that we've lived in a 12year era of a
01:25:04
non-traditional candidate that was
01:25:06
essentially a media personality that was
01:25:08
able to then curate a plurality of
01:25:11
support right that's right and there's
01:25:12
going to be something that comes after
01:25:14
him and so I'm just trying to get a
01:25:16
sense of if it's not you it's probably
01:25:19
to be very honest somebody like you
01:25:21
right
01:25:23
just talk to us about that for just a
01:25:25
second I completely agree with you and I
01:25:27
I love your characterization of trump as
01:25:29
someone who's from a media background
01:25:31
because that that's closer to the it's
01:25:32
I'm not diminishing I'm from media
01:25:33
background so I'm not attacking it but
01:25:35
that's a lot closer to the truth than
01:25:38
most characterizations Casino magnet
01:25:41
developer is a media guy you he had lots
01:25:43
of businesses but he was a media guy he
01:25:45
had the top show in NBC and so I think
01:25:48
you're absolutely right my concern is
01:25:52
that and I have pure contempt for the
01:25:54
professional political class I've
01:25:55
written a book about it I've expressed
01:25:57
it daily for a number of years now and
01:25:59
that's real however I think that there
01:26:02
you know these are complex systems and
01:26:04
it's better to have someone who
01:26:06
understands the systems in an Ideal
01:26:07
World administer the systems because
01:26:09
he's more effective at doing so um and I
01:26:12
also think that once you decide that
01:26:15
like hey let's just go crazy and you
01:26:18
couple that with true social disorder
01:26:23
like you get to a place where you can't
01:26:24
buy anything at CVS because it's chained
01:26:26
up because shoplifting has been
01:26:28
legalized as it has been in California
01:26:31
what you're going to get is fascism
01:26:33
because people can't live in in that in
01:26:36
they can't live with chaos like that's
01:26:37
the one thing they can't deal with and
01:26:38
I've covered a couple of wars and that
01:26:40
was my main conclusion the main problem
01:26:42
with war is not that people get killed
01:26:44
it's that people have to live with total
01:26:45
uncertainty and craziness and that's
01:26:47
incompatible with what people want like
01:26:50
that's the that's the worst thing you
01:26:51
know we're all going to die dying is not
01:26:53
the worst thing the worst thing is
01:26:55
living in chaos and we're starting to
01:26:57
live in chaos and so the return to order
01:27:00
is what scares me I think it'd be very
01:27:01
easy and I do think Gavin Newsome is a
01:27:03
fascist I think he's the kind of person
01:27:04
who would have no problem no hesitation
01:27:07
about using the doj to C to imprison his
01:27:10
political opponents now Biden is
01:27:11
imprisoning his political opponents but
01:27:13
at least they're lying about it Gavin
01:27:15
Newsome is the kind of person would be
01:27:16
like well yeah you're you're a threat to
01:27:18
the general order and you're going to
01:27:19
jail and I think because we're in a
01:27:22
moment of chaos right now people kind of
01:27:25
want that actually I think one of the
01:27:27
purposes of degrading and confusing our
01:27:30
society is to make way for
01:27:32
authoritarianism even more than we have
01:27:33
now um so that kind of freaks me out
01:27:37
actually I personally my what I would
01:27:39
really like is a kind of colorless you
01:27:43
know boring non-charismatic like Gerald
01:27:47
Ford Mike Pence without their views both
01:27:50
of those men were bad men in my opinion
01:27:53
but someone like that who could govern
01:27:55
without making it about himself and
01:27:57
restore the country to a sense of
01:28:00
rules-based order that's what I really
01:28:02
want and I but I'm probably going to be
01:28:04
denied that Tucker I I feel like one of
01:28:07
the one of the other consequences of the
01:28:09
way things have gone is that the
01:28:10
solution has always been to throw more
01:28:12
money at the problem and we've got this
01:28:13
kind of out ofc control fiscal condition
01:28:16
what's your point of view on the fiscal
01:28:18
condition of the us as a priority of the
01:28:20
federal government that is priority and
01:28:24
you know do we need to shrink government
01:28:26
shrink overall discretionary spending do
01:28:28
we need to cut these entitlements do we
01:28:30
need to do it all and how do we get
01:28:33
there given that everyone gets elected
01:28:35
by telling people I'm going to give you
01:28:36
more stuff and then this just kind of
01:28:39
Cascades for decades until eventually
01:28:41
bad [ __ ] happens well who's going to buy
01:28:43
our debt I mean that's that's like it's
01:28:46
scary it's so
01:28:47
scary um you know this is of course the
01:28:50
problem with democracy I mean I think
01:28:52
since you know from the Roman Republic
01:28:53
until 1776 like how many democracies
01:28:56
were there
01:28:57
exactly let me do the math on that I
01:29:00
approximately zero in that range and
01:29:02
this was the critique of course in
01:29:05
Europe of democracy at the time is not
01:29:07
that it gave too much freedom to the
01:29:09
average
01:29:10
person but that it would result in
01:29:13
tyranny and when the majority discovered
01:29:15
it could steal the goods of whomever it
01:29:18
wanted Legally Legally um you would wind
01:29:21
up
01:29:22
dictatorship I mean this is like a very
01:29:24
well trod path but I mean but I hope it
01:29:27
doesn't get to that I'm not making
01:29:28
argument against democracy I'm just
01:29:29
saying it's a little bit harder to
01:29:31
perpetuate than we thought that it was
01:29:34
and um and this is kind of the fear that
01:29:37
people have had for hundreds of years
01:29:38
the condition is the manifestation of
01:29:40
that structural problem yes yes that's
01:29:43
exact exactly that's exactly right let's
01:29:45
end on this uh Elon clip from yesterday
01:29:48
just about virtue like to get your
01:29:50
reaction to this Tucker Tesla has done
01:29:52
more to help the environment than uh all
01:29:56
other companies
01:29:58
combined would be fair to say that
01:30:00
therefore as a leader of the company
01:30:02
I've done more for the environment than
01:30:03
everyone any single human on earth how
01:30:06
do you feel about
01:30:09
that feel about that yeah no I'm I'm
01:30:11
asking you personally how you feel about
01:30:13
that because this goes we were talking
01:30:14
about power and influence and I'm saying
01:30:16
I'm saying what what I care about is the
01:30:18
the reality of goodness not the
01:30:19
perception of it and what I see all over
01:30:22
the place is people who care about
01:30:24
looking good while doing evil [ __ ] them
01:30:28
your thoughts on ver signal versus that
01:30:31
was like it was like it was like the
01:30:34
hand of God massaging my central nervous
01:30:36
system like every arous Zone which just
01:30:40
heightened awareness like that I I
01:30:43
couldn't Rel full Chiropractic release
01:30:46
wow so dirty I'm sorry no but I just I
01:30:49
so vly agree and I don't even like
01:30:51
Electric cars I don't think they help
01:30:53
the environment I didn't even agree with
01:30:54
that part I just love his point which is
01:30:57
the point which is what actually matters
01:31:01
is what you do it's not what you think
01:31:03
it what matters is helping other people
01:31:05
and I also think that the fact that
01:31:07
Andrew rorin has a television job shows
01:31:10
this is not a meritocracy like I don't
01:31:12
know how he got that his response his
01:31:15
response to that was like he didn't even
01:31:17
he he can't even like I'll just kind of
01:31:19
say this is like so inside baseball but
01:31:22
it's literally what I do for a li have
01:31:23
done all my life yes that's what we do
01:31:24
talk interviewing people yes is to
01:31:28
listen to them Larry King I used to fill
01:31:30
in for Larry King at CNN he was number
01:31:32
one 9:00 p.m. all this stuff the first
01:31:34
time I filled in for Larry King there
01:31:35
was no research on the guests I had two
01:31:37
guests no research and I said the
01:31:38
producer Larry was like in Cabo with
01:31:40
wife number seven and I said where's the
01:31:42
research oh Larry doesn't do research so
01:31:45
I do the show when fine and I called him
01:31:46
after I was like dude you do no research
01:31:49
he goes and he was number one most
01:31:50
dominant figure in cable news by far and
01:31:53
he goes no I just listen someone says
01:31:56
something weird I pause and I said wait
01:31:58
wait a second wait a second wait a
01:31:59
second you killed someone in 1962 why'd
01:32:01
you kill him you follow up you're
01:32:04
present in the interview yes and then
01:32:07
you follow up based on what this guest
01:32:09
said notice how Jason's interrupting you
01:32:10
right now sorry go ahead Tucker
01:32:12
listening to what Tucker said and
01:32:13
reflecting back to him what he said is
01:32:15
what game real that's right it's a cqu
01:32:19
jal's treating this as validation
01:32:22
absolutely there's story to this Tucker
01:32:24
that you don't need to know about but I
01:32:26
can tell it's it's tantalizing it is oh
01:32:29
it is it is trust me H well let's end
01:32:31
here I you know we have a lot of fans of
01:32:34
not only there about 18% crossover
01:32:37
between all in and your work Tucker and
01:32:39
they send me images of you out there and
01:32:42
about in the world and uh we just I just
01:32:45
got this one in my
01:32:46
DMs I don't know what's going on what's
01:32:48
going on here is that a park in New
01:32:50
Hampshire where you
01:32:52
guys is the run out of these yet that is
01:32:56
so you know what I'm not that's kind of
01:32:59
hunky I'm just being honest yeah it's a
01:33:01
lot going on here well listen we got
01:33:03
Vineyard Vines t-shirt the the the
01:33:06
romance is now complete Tucker we'd love
01:33:08
to have you back on a regular basis
01:33:10
actually so fun that was super fun that
01:33:13
was great and I'm sorry for talking too
01:33:14
much you guys spun me up into a frenzy
01:33:16
but I appreciate it I understand I
01:33:18
understand why you were number one in
01:33:20
media I that was so fun enjy it thank
01:33:23
you really really good thank you very
01:33:25
much Tucker thank you yeah thank was
01:33:27
amazing Tu good luck with the new launch
01:33:30
everybody go to tuckercarlson.com and
01:33:32
when the subs come out on day one give
01:33:34
them a sub okay sub be Tucker sub didn't
01:33:38
come out exactly how I wanted to sure
01:33:42
you can sub for Tucker Z are you gonna
01:33:44
be a sub for Tucker ax are you
01:33:47
subbing I'm gonna Dom for Tucker Oh God
01:33:52
po all right thanks tuck see you guys
01:33:56
what' you guys think that was fun that
01:33:57
was great yeah let's show you de socer
01:33:59
for Tucker I'll be honest like can we
01:34:01
get him on group chat I mean this can
01:34:02
you imagine being on group chat with
01:34:04
tuck such a fun guy great guy he's a
01:34:06
great Entertainer and you know what he's
01:34:08
into I know he's right-wing conservative
01:34:10
but he's actually I think a first
01:34:11
principal thinker who thinks for himself
01:34:13
we we didn't get into January 6 we ran
01:34:14
out of time but you know he he was you
01:34:17
know not happy about that he wasn't
01:34:19
happy about election denial I think he's
01:34:20
intellectually regular wow J what do you
01:34:23
think Jam I really liked it I like
01:34:24
talking to people that have opinions
01:34:26
that force me to like actually rethink
01:34:29
about how I think and yeah it was I
01:34:32
think the the most impactful thing that
01:34:35
he said to
01:34:36
me which touches upon my own life was
01:34:39
just how one feels when you have a
01:34:42
little bit too much too early versus
01:34:45
grinding slowly and compounding success
01:34:47
over many years I think it does create
01:34:50
in moments
01:34:52
an element of self-sabotage I lived it
01:34:54
in my own life so that totally resonated
01:34:57
this idea that there's just so much
01:34:59
abundance that causes people
01:35:01
to not really fight over the big issues
01:35:04
and then fight over the The Fringe
01:35:06
issues I I do think that there's an
01:35:08
element of huge truth in that it was
01:35:10
really really good I think like that
01:35:12
this is probably one of the very few
01:35:14
ones that we've done that I would listen
01:35:16
to over again totally I'd say that was
01:35:18
like one of my favorite episodes or
01:35:19
probably my favor top five just just as
01:35:22
a listener I just enjoyed listening the
01:35:24
whole [ __ ] time the thing I I just
01:35:25
wanted to I could hear him talk for
01:35:27
hours probably I know I didn't want to
01:35:28
talk I didn't have anything to say I
01:35:29
just wanted to chill and hang out like
01:35:30
listen that's great yeah me too have you
01:35:32
done Tucker show jth yet they asked me
01:35:35
to do the show in December which I
01:35:37
couldn't do and at some point in the
01:35:39
spring I will do the show but then I was
01:35:41
like can you come on our show and there
01:35:44
you go doing it right it's amazing yeah
01:35:46
that was amazing SX didn't you like go
01:35:48
on his show no I've been on Tucker show
01:35:50
a couple of times when it was on Fox and
01:35:52
one appearance was about chasa buin you
01:35:54
know the da that we got tossed out and
01:35:56
then go team I I went on a couple other
01:35:59
times I think one one was about the
01:36:00
economy I was on a show a couple of
01:36:02
times for you know short segments but
01:36:04
anyway I thought I thought what was
01:36:05
interesting about this conversation was
01:36:07
that it was much more philosophical than
01:36:09
I was expecting yes we we touched on a
01:36:11
few like policy issues but we spent most
01:36:15
of the time talking about his deeper
01:36:18
clinical diagnosis of American culture
01:36:21
and American discourse and I would say
01:36:25
that one of the things that's maybe
01:36:26
unique about his take and I mean
01:36:29
definitely different than mine is it's
01:36:30
much more
01:36:31
psychological than metaphysical even
01:36:34
metaphysical and psychological I mean
01:36:36
like I don't really ask too many
01:36:38
questions about why people believe what
01:36:40
they believe I just sort of take it as a
01:36:41
given and then discuss whether they're
01:36:44
right or wrong whereas he actually sort
01:36:45
of psycho analyzes why people have the
01:36:49
views that they have and and um you know
01:36:52
what I mean it's it's actually kind of
01:36:53
interesting that whole methodology for
01:36:55
whatever it's worth resonates with me I
01:36:57
mean I think it's very it's the reason
01:36:59
early on I really gravitated to Renee
01:37:01
Gerard because I thought it demonstrated
01:37:02
a lot of how people behave to me in in a
01:37:05
language that I could understand so when
01:37:06
Tucker describes problems in this
01:37:08
context to me it's very powerful just
01:37:10
because that is how I kind of frame
01:37:12
things as I think humans are driven by
01:37:15
psychological incentives and I think
01:37:18
that there is something very worth
01:37:20
exploring here which is these Western
01:37:22
cultures get so prosperous that the big
01:37:25
things we don't fight over so then we
01:37:27
fight over the little things or we have
01:37:28
to invent things to fight over and The
01:37:30
Virtue signaling he kind of brings up in
01:37:32
his own personal experience which is hey
01:37:33
I go to Jackson Hall I'm getting
01:37:35
accosted you know in line at the lift
01:37:37
people's wives are upset at me the
01:37:38
husbands are upset at me the hedge fund
01:37:40
people these are all people of
01:37:41
incredible wealth incredible privilege
01:37:43
who have extra cycles and instead of
01:37:45
having a debate over the issues in good
01:37:48
faith full contact debate like we do
01:37:50
here
01:37:52
they just want to vilify people and you
01:37:53
know I tried to listen to him and say
01:37:54
hey what what does he get right here now
01:37:57
I obviously think he's wrong about
01:37:58
climate change I thought that was
01:37:59
Bonkers but I do think he he understands
01:38:01
human nature pretty well from doing 30
01:38:03
years of interviews yeah it's definitely
01:38:05
worth exploring Jason this idea that the
01:38:08
more successful people get the more
01:38:09
self-loathing there is and then it
01:38:12
manifests in some you know really
01:38:14
destructive ways I think especially if
01:38:15
you don't have a foundation once you get
01:38:17
successful enough there's very little
01:38:19
progress I think a lot of human
01:38:20
happiness comes from ress progress
01:38:23
exactly right's the purpose well there
01:38:26
just there's just no higher order bits
01:38:28
you buy the house that's a huge
01:38:30
accomplishment but then when you buy
01:38:31
your second house or third house I think
01:38:33
the diminishing returns are severe yeah
01:38:35
Sever and then and then these things are
01:38:37
just baggage they're like Al yeah and
01:38:39
then you're spending all this time
01:38:40
dealing with headaches you know exactly
01:38:42
what's your progress what's your
01:38:44
progress what's the purpose in life I
01:38:45
mean saxs when you bought your 6 house I
01:38:47
mean
01:38:48
how you cut that just busy uh
01:38:51
reorganizing the US political
01:38:53
establishments I think he's making
01:38:55
progress you know in his own way SX is
01:38:56
making progress yeah yeah well I I you
01:38:59
know
01:39:00
he's where does he sit on the political
01:39:03
Spectrum today saak because you and he
01:39:05
are both yeah because you're both kind
01:39:07
of outcast in the Republican party now
01:39:09
right like I would describe Tucker as
01:39:11
probably the most influential
01:39:14
populist in you know on the on the right
01:39:18
so there is a sort of populism well
01:39:20
there's a populism of left that I guess
01:39:22
was Bernie Sanders before he to you know
01:39:26
maybe like five eight years ago whatever
01:39:28
describe us describe for the audience
01:39:30
your perception of populism you know on
01:39:32
the left and the right and what they
01:39:33
share and what what they don't share
01:39:35
kind of thing because this does seem to
01:39:36
be the emerging party I think we would
01:39:39
all agree is that people are sick of
01:39:41
these extremes and they want something
01:39:42
new and the something new seems to be
01:39:46
populism well one way to think about
01:39:49
populism is is just to democracy
01:39:51
populism is the word that the elite
01:39:53
gives to democracy they don't like so
01:39:56
for example vast majority of the country
01:39:59
wants our border sealed for some reason
01:40:01
the elites don't want that so that's
01:40:03
labeled populism I think the vast
01:40:05
majority of the country regrets the
01:40:07
forever wars in the Middle East and
01:40:08
doesn't want us getting involved in more
01:40:11
Wars this sort of hyper
01:40:12
interventionism I think that's like a
01:40:14
major part of of the platform and then
01:40:17
of course I think the third big area of
01:40:19
reevaluation was around our free trade
01:40:21
policies you know they
01:40:23
really ended up hollowing out America's
01:40:25
industrial capability and exported a lot
01:40:28
of manufacturing jobs globalization to
01:40:30
to to China the globalization so yeah I
01:40:32
think on the
01:40:34
right big picture I would say the
01:40:36
populism is a nationalist reaction to
01:40:40
the hyper
01:40:41
globalization that happened that was
01:40:42
encouraged by the elites over the past
01:40:44
few decades and he he hit on that he
01:40:46
said you know at some point are the
01:40:48
politicians going to match what the
01:40:51
people want and they they call this
01:40:52
getting to Denmark high functioning
01:40:55
governments in the
01:40:57
nordics you know tend to reflect what
01:41:01
the candidates reflect what the people
01:41:03
want right and we seem to have this kind
01:41:04
of broken here we we have one other
01:41:07
story people have wanted us to comment
01:41:08
on when we had our week off so I thought
01:41:10
we get into the Open Eye thing I just
01:41:12
wanted to point out I don't mean to make
01:41:14
this like a love triangle sacks but
01:41:17
Tucker and I did go skiing last year we
01:41:18
we tried to keep it but now that it's
01:41:20
out you know here it is I'm sorry about
01:41:23
this but we were actually in this Echo
01:41:25
at the same time so it's gonna come out
01:41:27
at some point we might look how old and
01:41:31
nasty those ski clothes are oh yeah well
01:41:34
you know what we're both very woke and
01:41:36
we don't want we're fure signaling that
01:41:38
we don't we want to recycle so we bought
01:41:40
all this
01:41:41
uh on eBay I thought that was Phil HTH
01:41:44
on the left I guess that's job that's me
01:41:47
before I was inic face all right let's
01:41:49
do the open eye AI thing if you guys
01:41:52
have time can we go over this real quick
01:41:54
I don't want to we can I just wonder if
01:41:55
the story is stale but I mean I I think
01:41:58
one of the things we can do here is just
01:42:00
sort of now that the three acts are
01:42:02
complete we can actually talk about the
01:42:04
epilog just to for for people who
01:42:07
have I think the epilog's about to drop
01:42:10
but yeah well that's that's what we'll
01:42:12
get at I think we're still in the second
01:42:14
act here I don't think this is over by a
01:42:16
long shot all right so let me AR let's
01:42:18
see why I'm curious why that is I'm
01:42:19
gonna architect tuim moth Act One Sam's
01:42:22
fired act two chaos for a week we were
01:42:24
off you know what were all the reasons
01:42:26
act three obviously just yesterday Sam's
01:42:29
back I think il's out Microsoft's an
01:42:31
observer on the board so I guess the
01:42:32
epilogue trof is what we want to know is
01:42:35
what happened why did this all happen
01:42:37
was there a major breakthrough was it
01:42:39
Sam doing deals with masi yoshian or in
01:42:43
the Middle East to make uh you know AI
01:42:45
chips what do if we if the epilog does
01:42:48
drop or if like you're saying this is
01:42:50
the second act and the third Act is
01:42:52
going to begin whichever metaphor you
01:42:54
want to use what will it say jam up I
01:42:56
think we can all agree on what happened
01:42:59
which is that the employees realized
01:43:02
that in the absence of leadership
01:43:03
business leadership that the Enterprise
01:43:06
value of that company was going to
01:43:09
disintegrate and what would have been
01:43:12
imperiled was an 86 billion dollar
01:43:15
valuation secondary so I think the
01:43:18
employees did what was in their best
01:43:21
interest and it makes the obvious and
01:43:24
logical sense which is we need to circle
01:43:27
the wagons and get the business
01:43:29
leadership of this company back into
01:43:31
this place so that the value of the
01:43:34
Enterprise is sustained they did that so
01:43:37
I think this valuation is going to hold
01:43:41
I think the secondary is going to happen
01:43:42
so I think like from that
01:43:44
perspective whatever was supposed to
01:43:47
happen there happened so what are the
01:43:50
interesting threads that are left
01:43:54
over we don't yet have a full accounting
01:43:57
of what precipitated all of the all of
01:44:00
the decision- making at the board number
01:44:03
one number two is the person who seemed
01:44:06
to be the Principal
01:44:08
inventor is now no longer on the board
01:44:10
and I think based on Sam's blog post
01:44:13
could probably no longer be at the
01:44:15
company that seems like an important
01:44:18
thing and then the third thing which I
01:44:20
found odd was Brett Taylor who I worked
01:44:23
with at Facebook who I've known for a
01:44:24
long time very sober reasonable guy puts
01:44:29
out his
01:44:31
own addendum to the blog post that
01:44:33
basically says his chairmanship of this
01:44:36
board is purely transitory H what do you
01:44:40
take what's what is that yeah what do
01:44:41
you take from that my takeaway is
01:44:44
whatever's happening is still TBD
01:44:46
there's enough question marks that look
01:44:48
I told my friends on the board without
01:44:50
saying who it was whatever you guys do
01:44:53
the most important thing that you need
01:44:54
to do is you need to retain great
01:44:56
counsel and make sure that there and I
01:44:58
said this publicly make sure that
01:45:00
there's phenomenal dno insurance and
01:45:03
make sure that there aren't any issues
01:45:06
where you could be held personally
01:45:08
liable for whatever happens in the
01:45:09
future piercing of the Val the corporate
01:45:12
Val yeah now that's a generic thing that
01:45:14
I think all corporate directors should
01:45:16
do I think it's even more important here
01:45:19
because you have a non-standard
01:45:21
governance structure that could change
01:45:25
and it could change because the people
01:45:27
involved want it to change but it could
01:45:29
also could change because the government
01:45:31
says hey hold on a second this should
01:45:33
never have been like this in the first
01:45:34
place I'll give you an example of that
01:45:36
you know at Facebook there was a moment
01:45:38
where we divested all of our IP to a
01:45:40
subsidiary in
01:45:42
Ireland and for tax reasons and there
01:45:45
were two signatories to that deal it was
01:45:47
me and
01:45:48
Zuck and six or seven years later this
01:45:51
is long after I left Facebook the IRS
01:45:53
says hold on a second you misvalued
01:45:55
these assets we're owed X billions of
01:45:57
dollars in taxes it was a huge long
01:46:00
drawn out thing so at a minimum if
01:46:04
there's Great Value created here there
01:46:05
will be consequences with respect to tax
01:46:08
and who paid what and if you have the
01:46:11
shielding of a nonprofit entity there's
01:46:13
theoretically a lot of taxes that could
01:46:15
have been paid that not so all of this
01:46:17
to me says a lot of really open Curious
01:46:20
threads which means it's not the
01:46:21
epilogue yet we're probably somewhere at
01:46:23
the end of act two fredberg uh my
01:46:26
question to you is there's been
01:46:28
speculation that there was an super
01:46:30
intelligence AGI breakthrough possibly
01:46:33
and that's what spooked everybody and
01:46:35
maybe the claim that Sam wasn't
01:46:38
forthcoming with the board was that he
01:46:39
didn't tell him about it the second
01:46:41
thing was there's been some forchan
01:46:43
posts again this is pure speculation
01:46:45
that maybe the AI they're working on
01:46:49
could break in some way encryption and
01:46:52
that would have been CA a really chaotic
01:46:54
Global moment what are your thoughts on
01:46:58
those three potential items or more are
01:47:01
any of those possibilities in your mind
01:47:03
Dave freeberg no idea I can that yeah go
01:47:07
ahead sex goad s you take a out so I
01:47:09
think the best theory on what actually
01:47:11
happened here what precipitated all of
01:47:13
this was broken and a piece by Reuters
01:47:16
and what it said was that there was a
01:47:19
letter to the board that was written in
01:47:21
the few days before Sam's firing by the
01:47:25
board in which they were raising
01:47:26
concerns over the development of qar
01:47:29
which was a new breakthrough at open AI
01:47:32
that allows these language models to do
01:47:34
math and previously uh llms just weren't
01:47:38
very good at math it would sort of
01:47:39
predict the next word but that wasn't
01:47:40
actually based on mathematical reasoning
01:47:43
qar actually allows the AI to do math it
01:47:46
understands mathematical reasoning
01:47:48
supposedly the capabilities only at a
01:47:50
grade school level right now but it is
01:47:52
highly accurate and it can be scaled up
01:47:54
with more computing power and I don't
01:47:57
think it was coincidental that Sam was
01:47:59
supposedly in the Middle East seeking to
01:48:01
raise billions of dollars to create a
01:48:02
new chip company basically new
01:48:04
specialized chip or ASC to perhaps run
01:48:06
these types of models so they were going
01:48:08
to scale up this capability and what
01:48:11
mathematical reasoning allows you to do
01:48:14
is unlock a whole new problem set so for
01:48:16
example in chemistry in physics in
01:48:19
computer science and cryptography
01:48:21
encryption an encryption all these
01:48:23
things mathematic mathematical reasoning
01:48:25
underpins all of these disciplines and
01:48:29
so it does represent a major new piece
01:48:33
towards AGI and so I think the best
01:48:36
theory about what happened is that the
01:48:40
board but I'd say specifically Ilia um
01:48:43
had a panic or moment of Panic or
01:48:47
concern you know freak out or whatever
01:48:48
concern whatever about this and it
01:48:52
combined with probably underlying
01:48:54
concerns that the board had about Sam's
01:48:56
other activity because he's got his
01:48:57
fingers and a lot of so it hits two of
01:49:01
the three potential reasons you know
01:49:04
putting aside any personal Behavior
01:49:06
would seems like there's no personal
01:49:07
Behavior here so it's those two right
01:49:09
right so they fire him but they
01:49:10
apparently didn't really think it
01:49:11
through at all and these are not it's
01:49:15
not a professional board yeah that's
01:49:17
constructed I don't know I think Adam
01:49:19
Adam is
01:49:21
but the other two were considered
01:49:23
technologist and then the two others who
01:49:25
were you know from nonprofits they just
01:49:27
not very familiar and so what happened
01:49:29
is they took this drastic action but
01:49:30
didn't explain it and with each passing
01:49:32
day it became more glaring that they
01:49:35
would not explain it so the pressure
01:49:37
sort of built on the company to explain
01:49:40
itself and provide a good justification
01:49:43
for this and then meanwhile I think Sam
01:49:45
just ran a textbook counter C operation
01:49:49
here I mean they got Hearts emojis there
01:49:52
was that aspect of it but disguise
01:49:55
behind the velvet glove of all these
01:49:57
hearts and saying I love you and all
01:49:58
this stuff was the iron fist the iron
01:50:01
fist was they got over 700 of the 770
01:50:05
open AI employees to sign a petition
01:50:08
that they were going with Sam and Sam
01:50:10
went to Microsoft and set up shop so the
01:50:13
threat to the board was I'm going to
01:50:14
take the whole company with me and set
01:50:16
up shop over at Microsoft and that was
01:50:18
sort of the compelling threat basically
01:50:20
all the employees threatened to to quit
01:50:22
and go with Sam and so the board was
01:50:24
under immense pressure and then at the
01:50:27
same time you got the sense that Ilia
01:50:30
was under a lot of personal pressure
01:50:32
from his friends from people he knew at
01:50:33
the company it's not probably irrelevant
01:50:36
that there's about to be a huge cash out
01:50:38
there's about to be a big secondary at
01:50:40
a86 billion valuation so all these early
01:50:43
employees were about to make a lot of
01:50:45
money in any event for all of these
01:50:47
reasons I think I I don't think IL is
01:50:49
motivated by money I think he's
01:50:50
motivated by wanting to keep open AI
01:50:52
intact I think that he must have had a
01:50:55
moment where he realized wait a second
01:50:56
what we've done here in throwing out Sam
01:50:59
is destroying the company and then he
01:51:01
recanted he basically apologized and
01:51:04
signed that petition and at that moment
01:51:06
it just became a fat comp plea that Sam
01:51:07
was going to get his job back and so
01:51:09
that's basically what happened now in
01:51:11
terms of the
01:51:12
epilog where I disagree slightly with
01:51:14
chth is that although they still have to
01:51:18
form this board they're going to form a
01:51:19
n person board and they only have three
01:51:21
members so far I think the conclusion
01:51:24
here is it's sort of a foregone
01:51:26
conclusion which is the board can never
01:51:29
fire Sam again I mean they're they're
01:51:30
not going to go through that again
01:51:32
therefore he has total control it would
01:51:35
take a lot it's would tell you a lot so
01:51:36
I think that Sam has won and he's going
01:51:38
to consolidate his control over the
01:51:41
company by the way I thought he already
01:51:43
had control I thought that yeah you
01:51:44
outlined that in the that he had control
01:51:47
apparently he did not do you think he
01:51:48
makes
01:51:50
AIT do you think it just it AIT and then
01:51:53
says hey we'll amount of the equity or
01:51:56
whatever to this nonprofit but we're
01:51:57
going to we're just going to flip this
01:51:58
thing and and separate it out and clean
01:52:00
up the original sin I think apparently
01:52:02
there's like tax problems with doing
01:52:03
that but I but I think that what happens
01:52:05
is look they already have this
01:52:07
for-profit LLC entity which is where all
01:52:10
the investors have have basically put
01:52:11
their money into and they've gotten
01:52:13
shares or membership interests or some
01:52:16
sort of profit interest synthetic shares
01:52:18
whatever synthetic shares Phantom shares
01:52:19
and then the vast majority of that is
01:52:21
owned by this Foundation the nonprofit
01:52:23
Foundation that I always thought was
01:52:25
under Sam's control but apparently it
01:52:26
wasn't I think it now will be I think
01:52:28
that I just think that what's going to
01:52:30
happen in the next few months is that
01:52:31
Sam will consolidate his control because
01:52:34
he's proven that he has a total loyalty
01:52:36
of the troops and they're behind him and
01:52:38
there's no choice so why won't he get
01:52:40
everything he
01:52:41
wants yeah all of the all of the smoke I
01:52:46
think leads to the fire that you point
01:52:47
out which is there was some great
01:52:49
advance
01:52:50
there was some deals going on and those
01:52:52
things it matches what the board said we
01:52:55
didn't feel like we was being
01:52:56
forthcoming with us and it could be on
01:52:58
two issues like that it just totally
01:53:00
makes sense it locks the puzzle pieces
01:53:02
in place Dave let's assume that they
01:53:06
have now not only done language models
01:53:08
predicting the next word and and you
01:53:10
know understanding that but there is
01:53:12
some reasoning going on here and they
01:53:14
understand math and it understands how
01:53:16
to do the next math problem I don't know
01:53:18
if we put that under reinforcement
01:53:19
learning it's obviously very different
01:53:20
than language
01:53:22
models explain what you think if that is
01:53:25
what's happening here with the Q project
01:53:27
what that could mean on a scientific
01:53:29
basis I don't know enough I'm sorry I
01:53:32
gotta I mean this is why we love you
01:53:33
because you're honest when you don't
01:53:35
know jamat anything here as we wrap in
01:53:38
terms of watching this whole
01:53:40
brewhaha I think it's probably not the
01:53:43
end yeah yeah more drama I think there
01:53:47
probably will be more drama yeah I mean
01:53:50
of drama did you see the article this
01:53:52
morning where they started saying all
01:53:54
the houses that Sam bought he bought all
01:53:56
these houses and so I think there's a
01:53:58
lot of investigators digging around now
01:54:00
trying to figure out all the backstory
01:54:02
because the board was and so forth
01:54:03
coming with what happened and why they
01:54:05
made this decision there's a lot of
01:54:07
people digging around trying to figure
01:54:08
out more about Sam than may have been
01:54:11
you know looked into in the past so this
01:54:12
will reveal all sorts of new threads
01:54:15
that'll start to become part of the The
01:54:17
Narrative it's unfortunate I think that
01:54:20
technology the progress is what really
01:54:23
matters here not all the kind of
01:54:25
personal people stuff it's weird I also
01:54:27
the the other comment I'll make I
01:54:29
thought one of the the biggest takeaways
01:54:30
for me on the whole drama last week was
01:54:32
that the employees basically got their
01:54:35
way employees got together voted and
01:54:38
said this is what we want and the board
01:54:40
did what they wanted and it really um I
01:54:42
think sets another precedent much like I
01:54:44
think Elon said a really big presedent
01:54:46
in Silicon Valley when he came in and
01:54:47
slashed heads at Twitter um the
01:54:50
precedent that it it triggered a lot of
01:54:52
other Executives to start to think well
01:54:53
maybe that's possible and I should think
01:54:55
about doing you know more cost savings
01:54:57
and so on this is another interesting
01:54:59
precedent where an entire employee base
01:55:02
gets together and says we want X and the
01:55:05
board acquiesced and said here you go
01:55:07
you can have X does that mean that other
01:55:09
startups and other companies are going
01:55:11
to start to see employee groups band
01:55:12
together saying we want X in a more
01:55:14
vocal public way possibly well I mean
01:55:18
freeberg this is not a new Tac
01:55:20
right but look if the employees are
01:55:21
willing to sign a petition on mass and
01:55:23
you get over 90% of them supporting
01:55:25
something and then you also threaten to
01:55:28
all set up shop somewhere else I mean
01:55:31
boards usually respond to that pressure
01:55:34
yeah but look I think that it's very
01:55:36
clear that Sam has the support of the
01:55:38
troops I'm not questioning that but I
01:55:40
think it would be a mistake to just see
01:55:42
this as some sort of spontaneous ground
01:55:43
swell I think there was clearly like
01:55:45
some organization to it like I said I
01:55:48
think he ran a textbook operation there
01:55:51
yeah and wasn't it Paul Graham who said
01:55:53
something like if Sam were dropped in an
01:55:55
island of cannibals like kind of a lord
01:55:58
of the fly situation he'd be the one to
01:55:59
come out on
01:56:01
top he's like really he's in his element
01:56:03
don't don't just assume look this is all
01:56:06
covered up by hearts and I love you I
01:56:08
mean I've never read a corporate
01:56:09
announcement with the word love in it
01:56:11
more times this was not about love and
01:56:14
hearts all you know this is there's some
01:56:16
he's a warless corporate in fighting
01:56:18
here yeah he came out on top but look
01:56:21
the board was totally incompetent I mean
01:56:22
listen if if a board is going to take a
01:56:26
drastic action of firing the founder CEO
01:56:29
when everything is going great I mean
01:56:32
because everything's been going great at
01:56:34
open AI it's incumbent on them to
01:56:36
explain their actions and there needs to
01:56:38
be they do that why there need to be why
01:56:41
didn't they do that even as a c their
01:56:44
reputation I'm saying it was totally
01:56:46
incompetent yeah they should have
01:56:48
dropped it yeah hm well no what I'm
01:56:50
saying is either there's a Smoking Gun
01:56:52
or there's not I don't think you should
01:56:54
take an action like this ever unless
01:56:56
there's a Smoking Gun and if there is a
01:56:58
Smoking Gun you need to communicate that
01:57:01
right and I think with each passing day
01:57:02
that they didn't communicate it people
01:57:03
came to the conclusion There Is No
01:57:05
Smoking Gun and so my guess is there is
01:57:07
no Smoking Gun and they were overly
01:57:09
Hasty about taking this action yeah this
01:57:12
could have been a very simple discussion
01:57:14
hey Sam can we work on you telling us in
01:57:17
advance when you're going doing deal
01:57:19
making so we can be in alignment on it
01:57:22
like there seemed like there was
01:57:23
something that could have been done that
01:57:25
wasn't firing him know yeah I mean like
01:57:29
you could you could put somebody on a
01:57:31
pip you could do all kinds of
01:57:33
things so taking the step of yeah
01:57:36
letting somebody go in that way with
01:57:38
that
01:57:39
orchestration again I just I just think
01:57:42
that this stuff is too juicy and too
01:57:46
interesting for the details to not come
01:57:48
out oh it will come out yeah the fact
01:57:51
that it hasn't come out yet is crazy I I
01:57:53
would have suspected it would have come
01:57:53
out in the first 72 hours so you think
01:57:55
there is maybe not a Smoking Gun but
01:57:57
there's something no no no I think I
01:58:00
think it's what what we said which is
01:58:02
that the economically rational decision
01:58:04
for all the employees and for Sam and
01:58:06
Greg was to do what they did because it
01:58:09
allows them to get an 86 billion
01:58:11
valuation and a big secondary done right
01:58:13
so that makes complete rational sense
01:58:15
that is the rational
01:58:18
decision that should have happened and
01:58:20
so that did but it doesn't stop
01:58:24
whatever underlying chaos was happening
01:58:28
that caused this decision to exist in
01:58:29
the first place to not come out I just
01:58:33
think that the incentives for that
01:58:35
decision to come out now for example
01:58:37
from the two departing board members is
01:58:39
quite High how do you get this
01:58:41
information from the incoming board
01:58:42
members how do they not say anything all
01:58:45
the new six people will have that join
01:58:47
the board will have to get read into
01:58:48
this thing
01:58:49
right so you're just multiplying the
01:58:51
number of people that knows whatever it
01:58:53
is and it's either going to be David to
01:58:56
your point path a which is the board
01:58:58
didn't know what they're doing and they
01:58:59
acted hastily or you know the
01:59:02
self-preservation of here's what we knew
01:59:04
but it is just going to come out and
01:59:05
leak after leak after leak and then to
01:59:07
your point the pulling the sweater of
01:59:11
all of the other deals that may have
01:59:12
been happening on the side or whatever
01:59:14
all of this stuff now comes out because
01:59:15
it's just too salacious for too many
01:59:17
people the numbers are too big
01:59:19
everything just looks too juicy now you
01:59:21
have this like hidden technology that
01:59:23
could theoretically ruin the world
01:59:26
everybody will be leaking to everybody
01:59:29
and that that's the that's the only
01:59:31
guarantee here which is why I really
01:59:33
think that you have to commend the
01:59:36
leadership team for trying to become
01:59:38
very militaristic about all of this
01:59:41
everybody had the same tweets they said
01:59:44
the same things they use the same hard
01:59:45
emojis I mean it was extremely
01:59:48
well-managed
01:59:49
it it was mantras it's amazing what a
01:59:51
secondary will do to the Troops there's
01:59:54
alignment of the St what was the Mantra
01:59:56
the Mantra was that open AI is nothing
01:59:58
without its employees or something like
02:00:01
that nothing without our team or
02:00:02
something and that was that was
02:00:04
basically something that on the surface
02:00:07
appeared to be a positive affirmation of
02:00:10
camaraderie but like I S said Iron Fist
02:00:13
beneath the velvet glove it's a threat
02:00:15
it's a threat we can set up shop formula
02:00:18
in in Excel spreadsheet that says they
02:00:20
are nothing without the team the
02:00:22
Enterprise Value equals zero company is
02:00:25
a zero without us and we can go step
02:00:27
shop somewhere else so it was perfect
02:00:30
velvet glove Iron Fist type stuff yeah
02:00:33
well done Sam we uh well Sam will be on
02:00:35
the pod in the coming weeks I think I've
02:00:37
been texting with him so I think if Sam
02:00:39
uh I think what Elon said yesterday was
02:00:41
also really interesting which is he
02:00:43
described Ilia as an extremely moral
02:00:46
person who thinks about these things
02:00:48
subtly
02:00:50
and so again and and I've known Adam for
02:00:53
a long time I think Adam is tremendous
02:00:56
he is from cor Adam D'Angelo yeah he was
02:00:58
the CTO at Facebook we worked together
02:01:00
in the trenches in war for years he is
02:01:03
just the best of the best totally he's
02:01:06
very smart you know very um very
02:01:09
knowledgeable this is not an irrational
02:01:11
emotional person my guess is
02:01:14
that that they had good reasons to
02:01:19
want to act based
02:01:22
on the Ila's philosophy around AI safety
02:01:26
you may not agree with that philosophy
02:01:28
but their mistake was if you're going to
02:01:30
do something like that you have to be
02:01:32
able to defend it you have to be able to
02:01:33
communicate it and I mean if your
02:01:36
concern here was around AI safety write
02:01:37
a Manifesto you know explain the values
02:01:41
that you're invoking and support that's
02:01:43
right I think that's a takeaway for all
02:01:45
of us for for all of us on boards that
02:01:48
at some Point have to make these
02:01:49
decisions because we're all faced with
02:01:51
them and we've made
02:01:53
them the lesson that I learned is we're
02:01:56
at a point where it is so important that
02:01:58
you give employees the transparency to
02:02:00
reer why they should stay so when you
02:02:03
make a decision like this in any company
02:02:05
going forward my reaction will be open
02:02:08
the kimono and lay out the case bare so
02:02:12
if you have to make a CEO transition
02:02:13
this is exactly why we did it this was
02:02:16
the precipitating events that caused it
02:02:18
here here's the evidence and here's what
02:02:20
we're going to do about it and I think
02:02:22
that that's probably a good takeaway for
02:02:24
all boards to learn which is that level
02:02:26
of transparency is going to be needed in
02:02:27
the future so that folks don't fill in
02:02:30
the blanks with their own conspiracy
02:02:31
theories also there were apparently two
02:02:34
companies or two organizations running
02:02:36
in parallel here to build on your points
02:02:37
J moth which is Ilia and the nonprofit
02:02:41
this might have been the right decision
02:02:42
for that organization but the right
02:02:44
decision for the employees who are
02:02:46
incented by the secondary that was about
02:02:48
to be
02:02:49
shipping the employees apparently
02:02:51
billions of dollars that for-profit
02:02:54
company this would be the wrong decision
02:02:56
the for-profit company should go fast
02:02:58
and it should be releasing Jason and
02:03:01
Jason like the I I from what was
02:03:04
reported there's like this obligation
02:03:07
and it's hard to understand what it
02:03:08
means of the board to determine when AGI
02:03:11
is reached and then as a result
02:03:13
essentially hit the kill switch on the
02:03:16
commercial business and if I were a
02:03:18
board member dealing with that I would
02:03:21
want a gazillion trillion dollars of
02:03:24
insurance to cover me and the reason is
02:03:27
that when that's litigated not if when
02:03:31
that's litigated it is that board that
02:03:33
will be at the center
02:03:36
of dealing with
02:03:38
that financial responsibility and
02:03:41
liability this is the other Master
02:03:43
stroke I think of what Sam did he's not
02:03:45
even on the board so that liability is
02:03:47
no longer his yeah
02:03:50
so he's got complete he's got complete
02:03:52
control of the business and and the
02:03:54
actual none of the responsibility and
02:03:57
and the actual fiscal responsibility he
02:03:59
doesn't have to bear good well can I
02:04:01
speak to the kill switch for a second so
02:04:03
I I think it's a really interesting
02:04:04
point so so by the way Jason there is a
02:04:06
for-profit entity here the for-profit
02:04:07
entity is this new LLC that was created
02:04:09
correct the nonprofit entity is above it
02:04:12
at the governance layer and it kind of
02:04:13
owns the LLC right so again investors
02:04:16
and employees get compensated out of the
02:04:18
LLC and then this nonprofit Foundation
02:04:21
was supposed to exercise it's a really
02:04:22
complicated orc chart there you go yeah
02:04:24
whenever orc chart has more than like
02:04:26
two arrows it's crazy you're [ __ ]
02:04:29
right how many arrows one two three four
02:04:31
five six seven eight arrows that's six
02:04:33
too many but my point is that this
02:04:36
complexity was justified by this idea of
02:04:40
the kill switch that if the AI gets out
02:04:42
of control the AI gets out of control
02:04:44
we're going to have this board of Super
02:04:46
Wise people who are not motivated by a
02:04:49
profit incentive right because that we
02:04:50
can't trust the profit in motive right
02:04:53
and so we're going to have this board of
02:04:55
of of wise Elders who are going to make
02:04:58
this you know super intelligent decision
02:05:02
and if this whole episode shows anything
02:05:04
it shows this structure completely
02:05:05
failed I mean the board ended up acting
02:05:07
in a completely incompetent way either
02:05:09
they had good cause to do what they did
02:05:12
and didn't explain it which was
02:05:13
incompetent or they had no cause at all
02:05:16
which was incompetent either way you
02:05:17
cannot say that this
02:05:19
acted with a high degree of competence
02:05:21
no matter how competent any of the
02:05:23
individuals are I'm just saying that as
02:05:25
a board Dynamic it completely failed so
02:05:28
they did not invent some higher form of
02:05:30
governance as they originally claimed
02:05:33
was Frank strcture it's a Franken
02:05:35
structure so it didn't work and I think
02:05:37
this all I mean it's a I think important
02:05:40
lesson in human motivations which is
02:05:43
just because you take out the profit
02:05:44
motive does not mean that human beings
02:05:47
all of a sudden become Noble they just
02:05:49
pursue other agendas basically political
02:05:52
agendas or whatever and um so this idea
02:05:56
that we're going to solve the AGI
02:05:58
problem or alignment issue by creating
02:06:02
nonprofit structures I think that this
02:06:05
episode proves that's not going to work
02:06:06
like look elsewhere and you and I talked
02:06:09
about this on a Twitter spaces and X
02:06:10
spaces which was you know people give
02:06:13
VCS and and you know investors a hard
02:06:16
time about you know I don't know their
02:06:18
existence and how they operate in the
02:06:19
world okay fair enough I'm sure there's
02:06:22
valid criticisms but the share price and
02:06:25
employees participating and the share
02:06:27
price going up and secondaries occurring
02:06:29
on a regular basis is the most perfect
02:06:32
structure that has been created by
02:06:34
humans to date for running an
02:06:36
organization I think we would all agree
02:06:37
and it's super imperfect and there's
02:06:39
weird things that happen but if you want
02:06:40
everybody to grow in the right direction
02:06:42
giving them some shares and then
02:06:43
everybody watching the share price go up
02:06:45
to the right is pretty phenomenal this
02:06:47
board did not have one VC on it it was
02:06:50
not right and all the VCS in the company
02:06:51
were they were the
02:06:53
biggest you know they were the most
02:06:55
aggressive tweeters saying you know WTF
02:06:58
like what are you doing because they
02:07:00
could see their investment Going Up in
02:07:01
Smoke yes they had a alignment with the
02:07:04
share price but nool so so as much as
02:07:07
you don't like the profit motive it does
02:07:09
create alignment and that makes people
02:07:11
predictable and that's a good thing and
02:07:13
like Adam Smith said in the
02:07:15
1700s the reason we can trust
02:07:19
that the Butcher and the baker will
02:07:22
serve us our dinner is because they're
02:07:24
going to make a profit they're aligned
02:07:25
with us and you know we don't look to
02:07:28
charity we look to their self-interest
02:07:30
and like you said for all the [ __ ] that
02:07:32
VC's take that if you properly align
02:07:35
people it can create I think it creates
02:07:38
a great Enterprise it creates a
02:07:39
potential for great Enterprise for great
02:07:42
outcomes great outcomes absolutely all
02:07:43
right this has been another
02:07:46
extraordinary all in episode probably
02:07:48
top five five thanks so much for Tucker
02:07:51
Clawson for coming on the program and uh
02:07:54
four the Sultan of science David
02:07:56
freedberg the Rainman yeah definitely
02:07:59
David Sachs and the dictator himself
02:08:04
jtia I'm the world's greatest moderator
02:08:06
and we will see you next
02:08:09
time let your winners
02:08:11
ride Rainman
02:08:16
David and in said we open sources to the
02:08:18
fans and they've just gone crazy with it
02:08:21
love queen
02:08:23
[Music]
02:08:28
of
02:08:30
[Music]
02:08:31
Besties my dog taking
02:08:35
driveway man oh man myit will meet me at
02:08:40
we should all just get a room and just
02:08:41
have one big hug orgy cuz they're all
02:08:43
this usess it's like this like sexual
02:08:45
tension that they just need to release
02:08:47
Som
02:08:51
[Music]
02:08:53
we need to get
02:08:58
[Music]
02:09:02
mer I'm goinging
02:09:04
[Music]
02:09:06
all
