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How do I sound? >> You sound perfect. >> You sound great. >> How do I look?
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>> Yeah, you sound great. Better than you look. Have >> a face made for radio.
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>> You don't look as tired as you have in recent weeks. >> That's true.
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>> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. Somebody was slagging me for the bags and for my eyes. I mean, this
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audience is brutal. >> They're brutal. >> They're brutal. >> It's a good thing I'm rich.
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>> Let your winners ride. Rainman David >> and it said we open sourced it to the
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fans and they've just gone crazy with it. >> Love you guys. >> All right everybody, welcome back to the
00:00:41
number one podcast in the world. It's the Allin podcast. With us today, Chimoth Polyatia, David Saxs, and our
00:00:49
fifth bestie, Mr. Brad Gersonner is here. I think uh David Freeberg is suffering from some socialist related
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flu. He's very sick of reading about socialists, but he'll be back next week
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with two incredible incredible interviews. >> You guys see those Spencer Pratt ads?
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>> Wow. >> It's one of the best political ads I've ever ever seen.
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>> Oh, there's like three or four of them. >> There multiples. >> Yeah.
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>> Whoever that social media team is is on fire. If you get a good social media
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team and you get a good ad production team, I think it's nextgen because these
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things go crazy. And Spencer Pratt, if he wins this election, which I think he's going to in Los Angeles, the reason
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is what Brad said. Those ads are incredible. >> Well, he's also quite a good debater.
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Did you see clips from this debate? >> Incredible. He's so funny. He's so
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chill. >> Yeah. Well, he's up against Karen Bass, who's the mayor, who is basically
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extremely leftwing. And then there's someone who's a city council woman who's
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even further to the left of Karen Bass. I mean, she's >> often like Fidel Castro territory. She's
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an Indian Fidel Castro >> Ramen. So, she was basically, I guess, criticizing the mayor for the
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homelessness problem. And then Pratt pointed out that this council woman is actually in charge of all these homeless
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programs already. >> He eviscerated her. >> Eviscerated her. And he basically made
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the key point, which is, look, the problem here is not lack of housing. It's an addiction issue, and it's a
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mental illness issue. And he said, "Look, if you >> He said, "If she went to the street,
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she'd get stabbed in the neck." >> Yeah. >> Which is pretty accurate if you've been
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to Skidro. I mean, you would not want to walk through there. It It was like the Spider-Man photo.
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>> Wait, Nick's got the clip. Play the clip, Nick. >> Oh god, this clip is brutal.
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>> This is a different clip, but this went super viral. It reminded me of Trump a
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little bit. >> Let's see. >> I'm not sure how to respond to that
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vision of Los Angeles. This is a MAGA Republicans idea of what Los Angeles looks like. This is This is really not
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>> unbelievable. For those of you listening, he put his hands up and wiggled his head like, "Oh my god."
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>> Hey, hey, Sachs. You know, Steven Pratt wins mayor. >> Spencer Pratt the, you know, the ballot
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initiative, the retirement protection and savings act, right? It's going to pass. Going to pass with big numbers.
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This is the, you know, referendum that effectively is going to knock out the wealth tax. Can you imagine if
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California effectively passes a constitutional amendment protecting retirement savings and personal assets
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and banning the wealth tax and crack gets elected? The message that would send to the country. That's that's a
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very non-conensus view that I'm becoming increasingly optimistic about. >> Well, from your lips to God's ears, but
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until that message actually is sent, I think I'm going to be uh >> in Texas. in Texas.
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>> Yeehaw. Well, I mean, this is also in the face of I don't know, just a
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follow-up story here, but Mandami did like an attack video on Ken Griffin's house. We talked about it on the pot a
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couple weeks ago, and like literally stood in front of his house, pointed at it, and this is in the face of like a
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CEO getting shot for ideological reasons, Sam Alman's house being targeted. This is like a really
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dangerous thing for Mandami to do. And Ken Griffin came out today and uh or yesterday in an interview and said,
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"Hey, listen. I'm out. We're going to be putting our efforts into um Florida. And
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this is the same thing that happened to Chicago. And he basically said like I really felt offended and I was, you
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know, nervous about this because of my personal safety. And he called him out. Mondami came out with like a a
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mealymouthed response that didn't even apologize for what he did. Just double
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down on it essentially. All right, let's get to the dot. I don't know if you guys
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saw it or not, but >> who cares? New York is becoming a flyover city. It's interesting way to
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put it. Uh, don't disagree. All right, first story. Elon just leased all of Colossus 1, his data center.
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>> He did. >> What? WHAT? YES. SHOCKING to Daario and Anthropic Chamath on last week's pod.
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Uh, go ahead and give yourself a pat on the back. You said Elon and Dario should
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do a deal tomorrow. It didn't happen the next day. It happened 5 days later. So,
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you came close, Jimoth. Uh, but no cigar because of Anthropic's obvious compute
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constraints. Anthropic just added over 220,000 Nvidia GPUs, over 300 megawatts of energy. The deal is already having an
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impact. As we've discussed here, Claude users have been experiencing rate limits. Well, Claude has now doubled the
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Claude code rate limits, removed peak usage caps for paid users, and increased API volumes for Opus models. XAI is now
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trading their models at Colossus 2. So, they have more than enough compute. Elon
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made a great bet on compute and built up those data centers really fast and that
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is now paying off. We had the cursor deal we talked about last week. Let's talk about the emergence of Elon Web
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Services EWS Chim. He is now in the hyperscaler competing against Google Cloud, Amazon Web Services and Azure.
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And uh I don't know if you had inside information or just a brilliant uh epiphany but uh take us behind the call
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and what do you think about the deal itself? I think the deal is fantastic. I'll say
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maybe three quick things. The first is, as I mentioned a couple weeks ago, Anthropic and OpenAI's
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revenue performance has nothing to do with demand. Zero. It is entirely to do with the supply constraints that exist
00:06:23
in data centers and specifically in power. If they had infinite power, I think that their revenues would probably
00:06:30
be even more parabolic. And so all the breathlessness about either exceeding or underperforming a forecast, in my
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opinion, mean nothing. I think the five-year view for those two companies is quite robust. The thing that they
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really need is more compute and more power. That's the first thing. The second thing is while they need that, we
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have a very big problem which is we unfortunately have very poor leadership at the head of most of these AI firms.
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I think they are coming off as untrustworthy or too self-interested. The political reaction now is starting
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to turn negative. The community reaction is negative. You have about nine gigawatts that are supposed to come
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online this year. Almost 50% of it now is being protested. More than likely, if if history holds,
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most of that will get turned off. So, they will get even more supply constraint. So, that's the setup. So,
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what's the opportunity I think for Elon? If you look inside of how people try to
00:07:45
nitpick the SpaceX valuation case, or let's not even let's give them sorry,
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let's be more generous. When people try to paint the bare case or they tried to
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red team the valuation, the biggest element is the onthe-c value around the orbital data centers. And by actually
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landing a bunch of terrestrial capacity, I think you start to blunt that because
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you can now start to say that even if the orbital data centers get delayed by a few months or a few quarters, even if
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the technological derisking of it takes longer, he now has this structural core business that will
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effectively subsidize his ability to train Grock, which I think is a really important and under
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reportported theme. So you have all this infrastructure. He somehow saw the tea leaves before most people. He built to a
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level of scale and secured power before most people. It has now become the critical asset. And now he's kind of
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kingmaking. And I think that that's a really interesting valuation reinforcement as SpaceX goes through
00:08:49
testing the waters and the and the road show. >> Brad, your take? >> Yeah. No, I think it's well said. I
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mean, first we we know that there's nobody better on planet Earth than Elon at converting electrons to tokens. It's
00:09:01
a critically important evolution to the story. You know, I think our friend Shawn Magcguire, he he he sent out a
00:09:07
tweet that summed it up well and he said SpaceX has this five layer cake, launch,
00:09:12
connectivity, compute, hyperscaler, space data centers, and then applications and models and then other
00:09:19
bets. Right? The question on the road show has been but X.AI AI doesn't isn't
00:09:25
on the revenue trajectory of open AI and and anthropic and yet there are huge commitments and now we see the ace card
00:09:34
that Elon's playing. He said he was building AWS all along or EWS all along.
00:09:40
And so I estimate that this is going to generate in this year an incremental 4 to5 billion of revenue on top of what I
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I've seen analysts estimates in the mid20s. That's a material amount of incremental revenue to offset the cost
00:09:53
of the investments that he's made here. And that will subsidize to Chamas's
00:09:58
point all that he's investing to build the next generation of Groth. Remember
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too that he has three facilities, Colossus, Macro hard, and Macro harder. 1.2 gawatts in Macro hard and macro
00:10:11
harder in Blackwell. So he's given the one that's kind of less connected.
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H100's great for inference to anthropic. He's monetizing it in a big way. It's
00:10:21
terrific for Anthropic and it solves what I think was the biggest question in the valuation story which is what if he
00:10:30
spends ahead of X.AI's revenue. It takes the pressure Chimath off X.AI delivering
00:10:36
immediate revenue. Now he becomes uh an immediate competitor in the hyperscaler.
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I don't think this is the last announcement. I think he's going to make a lot more you know moves in this
00:10:47
direction. I think it will be a material part of their story and their revenue projections uh as they come together and
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I would just say finally you know again everybody has talked about how we don't
00:10:58
have enough power how we don't have enough compute how the revenues would not show up this year you know but the
00:11:03
chaos that is American capitalism somehow finds a way okay and there's tremendous demand for anthropic and we
00:11:11
find a way I was so happy to see kind of the dant and the kind exchange between the team of Anthropic and Elon
00:11:20
because we need all of this in order to produce uh American frontier models to stay at the frontier. And then finally,
00:11:28
I just say, you know, Chimath, you referenced these activists that are protesting delaying these data centers
00:11:33
in in these localities. One thing I want to dispel this myth, these this is not like organic hyper local protests by
00:11:40
people in a community that aren't being spurred on. This is highly organized
00:11:45
activists that are moving across the country to stir up trouble in the exact same way they did to stop all fision
00:11:52
reactors being built 30 years ago in America. Now we have no nuclear reactors being built. China's got a hundred of
00:11:59
them. Who was funding those activists? I think we need to really look into who's
00:12:04
funding the activists now. I'm not saying that there aren't any concerns,
00:12:07
but the misinformation about water, the misinformation about electricity bills, electricity bills are going up in the
00:12:14
places that are not building data centers, New York and California, because they haven't built any supply on
00:12:21
the grid. In Texas, where you're building the most data centers in the country, electricity costs are going
00:12:26
down. So, um, I'm I I think that's a boogeyman that we got to take on. >> Sure. Johnson.
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>> Well, look, the deal is highly complimentary. As Chamath and Brad pointed out, SpaceX has a profitable, I
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think very profitable space and telecommunications Starlink business, the satellite business, but the XAI
00:12:48
business had huge losses. The reasons pretty straightforward. You need these super large training clusters, but they
00:12:53
cost a lot of money. And until you have a model that's capable of competing at
00:12:57
the frontier, you're not making any revenue. And that problem is compounded by the fact that right now all the
00:13:01
revenue is in enterprise, which is to say coding. We know that XAI just did that deal with Cursor to try and catch
00:13:08
up, but they don't have a coding product yet. So they're not participating in the
00:13:12
revenue, but they're participating in all the cost. So this deal fixes that problem. Elon's now able to have a
00:13:19
frontier model company, but he's able to now not have these massive unpaid for
00:13:25
capex commitments, right? because he's able to kind of lease that capacity. So
00:13:30
I think it solves a major problem for them and their balance sheet. And then you have to say that philanthropic this
00:13:35
is a really great thing because they were compute constraint. And just to build on that point, I mean I guess let
00:13:42
me be the first to congratulate Dario on winning the AI race. >> And you've been, let's be honest, Saxs,
00:13:49
you have been on this podcast, you've been moderately critical of that company
00:13:53
and Daario himself for being um, you know, a little P Doomer 110. And on your ex account, you've been even a little
00:14:02
spicier. So now that there's peace in the Middle East of uh of the AI business, what's your take here?
00:14:09
>> My take is look, let's just honestly and accurately assess where the state of
00:14:14
this AI market is at right now and Anthropic's place within it. So for the last 3 years, Anthropic has been growing
00:14:21
at a rate of 10x a year. I think going into this year, probably the conventional wisdom was that there'd be
00:14:27
no way to sustain that kind of rate of growth at this level of scale. And what happened in the first four months of the
00:14:34
year? First, we find out that from January 1st to March 31st, they grew from roughly 10 billion of ARR to 30
00:14:40
billion. So, it tripled. And then in April, if anything, the rate of increase seemed to accelerate. They went from 30
00:14:47
to 44 billion of ARR. Nobody in Silicon Valley has ever seen anything like it. Forget about the rest of the country. I
00:14:54
mean, all we do in Silicon Valley is deal with exponentials. And still, people have never seen that kind of
00:14:59
growth at that level of scale. The only thing holding them back in the future was compute. Now they've made this deal.
00:15:06
They've made other deals as well to get that compute. I think it's pretty much a
00:15:09
foregone conclusion that they will hit that forecast of 10x this year exiting the year. Call it roughly 100 billion of
00:15:15
ARR. And now the only question is whether they hit a trillion in 2027. And we can debate
00:15:24
>> getting on board. We can we can debate whether that's true or not. But look, if
00:15:28
they do that, I think they'll easily be the most valuable tech company in history. In fact, they might even be
00:15:34
more valuable than the rest of the Mag 7 put together. Just to give people some basis for comparison here, you know, the
00:15:40
biggest tech companies, Apple, >> Nvidia, >> Nvidia, Google. I think they kind of do
00:15:45
around 4 to 500 billion a year right now >> of of revenue. I guess Nvidia is in a
00:15:50
little bit of a different category, but you look at >> you look at the hyperscalers, the three
00:15:53
hybrid scalers. Yeah. I mean, Google is doing what, like 120 billion a quarter, something like that. 100 billion a
00:16:00
quarter. >> Correct. >> But growing at what, 20% year-over-year? Not 100%. It's certainly not a
00:16:05
thousand%. So, the fact that anthropic could be on track. In fact, let me correct.
00:16:11
>> You see them going to the track. It'll be a Maggie. I'm saying something else
00:16:15
which is that unless something about their current trajectory changes anthropic will be the most powerful
00:16:24
monopoly ever created in human history. >> Oh, >> again it will be, you know, a trillion
00:16:30
dollars of ARR growing at some exponential. >> Interesting. >> Dario calls it AGI. I call it the
00:16:36
biggest monopoly in human history. >> Interesting to hear that word monopoly.
00:16:40
Sachs, very interesting placement. Chimath go ahead and then I'll move in 2025 was 420 billion Microsoft was
00:16:50
300 billion Alphabet was 390 billion Amazon 700 billion Nvidia 190 billion Meta 185 billion Tesla 110 billion total
00:17:00
about 2.3 to 2.35 trillion so if Sax is right and Anthropic you know can tack on
00:17:08
a trillion it won't be the mag seven it'll be the mag Just to put it in perspective though,
00:17:13
Daario on Dwarkkish said he thought the combined AI revenue of the market leaders would be about a trillion in 29.
00:17:21
I love what you're saying. Sachs, I think there is unlimited TAM. We may be over our skis a little bit in terms of,
00:17:27
you know, the forecast. If you back your way from compute, right, they're they
00:17:31
expect to have 5 gigs by the end of this year, 10 gigs by the end of next year. It's kind of hard to get to those
00:17:36
numbers for a single company, but I do believe that the, you know, trajectory that they're on, I totally agree with
00:17:42
you, is on an exponential um that not many people believed in 4 months ago. >> Right. So then the question is, okay, I
00:17:48
think we all agree they're on an exponential curve and that the TAM is big enough to support that. Just one
00:17:53
data point on TAM. My understanding of the total market size just on coding is one trillion meaning that a trillion
00:18:02
dollars a year roughly is spent on software developers and all things related to the creation of software.
00:18:08
Now, I'm not saying that they eat that entire market, but I can easily see the
00:18:12
market for software doubling. >> Well, hold on. Doubling from a trillion to two trillion given that coding tokens
00:18:20
basically 10xes or 100xes the value of that market and the ability to generate code. So, I think we all agree that the
00:18:28
TAM here is large enough to support a trillion dollars of revenue. Brad, I think you bring up a couple of really
00:18:34
important constraints. First, there may not be enough comput and there's not
00:18:37
enough energy. I'd say the second big one is what's the competitive reaction
00:18:40
going to be? Totally. >> Because I would say at the beginning of this year, all these frontier labs were
00:18:45
playing around with a lot of different things. I mean, Anthropic was the porcupine. They believed in one thing.
00:18:51
All these other companies were kind of acting like the fox who thinks they're
00:18:54
good at a lot of different things. They were doing Nano Banana. They were doing Sora. They were doing, you know, they
00:18:59
were doing image generation. They were doing fantasy character chatbots. In hindsight, they were doing a lot of
00:19:06
things that appear to be kind of a waste of time. The whole market appears now to
00:19:10
be coding and the things that will be built on coding tokens like co-work like agents. And so there is going to be a
00:19:16
competitive response here where all the other guys realize, oh wait a second, we
00:19:20
were misfocused. They're going to get focused. I just don't know how much
00:19:24
share they're going to be able to take. It does look like OpenAI has already
00:19:28
made the pivot. We hear very good things about Codeex now based on GPT 5.5. 5.5 is based on a new base model called
00:19:36
Spud. I think they're very optimistic about continuing improvements. Their rate of growth appears to be
00:19:41
accelerating now because of uh 5.5. So look, there's reason to believe that OpenAI can take some share here. I'm
00:19:49
sure that Google won't be asleep at the wheel. They're very very good at coding.
00:19:53
They've got a really good team and Elon just tied up with Cursor. So there is
00:19:57
going to be more competition but still what you have to say and I think all of us know this from Silicon Valley is you
00:20:03
always want to be the company in the lead that's on that trajectory where all
00:20:08
you have to do is maintain inertia whereas the other people have to change something
00:20:13
>> in order to put themselves back in the race. So this is when I say somewhat
00:20:17
sort of faciciously congratulations Dario on winning the AI race. I don't mean that he's won it but he is winning
00:20:24
it right now. Well, here's the the brilliance of what Elon's doing. If you
00:20:28
look at the existing business, which is Starlink and basically the launch services at SpaceX, incredible business.
00:20:34
Obviously, 20 billion this year, I think is the estimate. But if you look at the
00:20:39
footprint of Amazon Web Services, Azure and GCP, you're looking at, you know,
00:20:44
300 billion dollars in revenue and a market cap of combined 5 trillion, 4 trillion if these were independent
00:20:54
companies. And if you look at what is Elon's core competency at Tesla, it's
00:21:00
building factories. And if you look at the footprint of these factories, they're huge. What are data centers?
00:21:05
They're basically big giant factories. And then if you look at energy, what else is Elon extremely good at? This is
00:21:12
the battery deployment and he's also got solar deployment from the Solar City
00:21:16
often criticized acquisition he did years ago. So you put this all together. If this is 5 billion, as I think you
00:21:23
referenced, Brad, if it's $5 billion in incremental Elon Web Services business and he's a
00:21:29
Neocloud, what could he build on planet Earth? What could he build inside of Teslas in terms of extra compute? What
00:21:37
could he build inside the power wall? What if the power walls had his new fabs in them and you built a distributed
00:21:42
system from home to home? The power wall has compute in it. The cars have comput
00:21:48
in it. And of course, the ultimate manifestation of this where nobody can complain is you go right out into space.
00:21:55
And that's what he's going to do. And the the sneaky small part of this announcement from Elon and uh from
00:22:01
Anthropic and Daario was they're also interested in space. So look for the race to go from factories and data
00:22:10
centers to homes. The power wall with comput in it. It's already online, right? And Starlink also gives him the
00:22:16
ability to do distributed comput's homes. Again, you could be paying people to put power walls with computing in it.
00:22:23
That's going to be the next shoe to drop, I believe. Did you guys see the deal that was announced
00:22:28
yesterday between PY Homes, which is a huge builder >> and SPAN? >> Yes.
00:22:35
>> Nick, just throw this up here. It's super cool. What's happening is that
00:22:38
these guys >> are putting many data centers with Nvidia GPU clusters beside every home and then allowing
00:22:46
people to actually run those things. And that's just incredible. I thought that
00:22:49
was so cool. >> It's a great pivot. What this company did originally, Chimamoth, was they did
00:22:53
the power panel. They made smart power panels. So, you know, when you flip your breakers, all those breakers are in an
00:22:59
app. I looked at it for my house, but I guess they pivoted to add this and I think base power, Brad, you're an
00:23:03
investor in it. They're going to do the same thing. >> Zack Dell is doing that. One of the
00:23:07
things I just say in response, Jason, to what you just said about Elon, right? This is why the SpaceX IPO is going to
00:23:13
trade at 40 to 50 times revenue. Okay. So next year if they do 40 to 50 billion and this thing goes out at 2 trillion
00:23:22
right that they're going to trade at a really high revenue multiple compared to
00:23:26
the mag five that are trading at like 25 times earnings and there's only one
00:23:31
person on the planet who has a future pipeline of innovation and the largest TAM in the world because he's playing in
00:23:38
all these different spaces that can command that multiple and it's Elon and it's deserved and it's great for the
00:23:44
country >> has that same Tesla has that same Elon uh variable in it as well which is
00:23:50
people value his companies at I would say two times market three times market four times market because of the future
00:23:57
pipeline and they devalue Apple because they don't have somebody like Elon or
00:24:01
Steve Jobs there who is giving them the future >> I don't think it's devalued I think
00:24:04
>> or properly valued if you don't have an Elon and you have somebody like I think
00:24:08
that's exactly what it is we talked about this last week but explain why you
00:24:11
think it's different >> I think all of these companies are actually very fairly valued and then
00:24:16
Elon World gets a premium >> totally >> and that premium is because of what you
00:24:21
guys said that I agree with. The big message that I take away from this which the markets and retail are telling you
00:24:28
is you guys have stopped innovating. There's a lot of incrementalism and we as a society aren't benefiting
00:24:37
broadly the way that you told us we would be. And so maybe this is the best way for them to get this message, which
00:24:44
is to whack their valuation. And by the way, I'll just say it again, when Tesla
00:24:48
and SpaceX merge and we have all things Elon and Elon Corp, okay, which will happen probably by the end of the year.
00:24:55
Maybe it'll happen in the middle of next year. It's going to then break everybody's
00:25:00
brains again because you'll have this one asset, as you guys said, that will
00:25:05
trade at a valuation premium. And some people will say it's unexplainable. And
00:25:10
I think it's logically explainable, which is everybody else has stopped innovating. People know how to draw more
00:25:17
blood from the stone, how to target better ads. That does nothing for society anymore.
00:25:23
>> That's it. Literally, in fact, it does the opposite. It there is no good left.
00:25:27
That was literally the exact point I was making when you cut me off. If you look,
00:25:31
Tim Cook's greatest innovation Tim Cook's greatest innovation before you
00:25:35
cut me off was Apple TV. Not even the hardware product. It was just spending money and making a Netflix knockoff.
00:25:41
There's been no other product in >> Hold on. Let me finish again before you
00:25:45
interrupt me making my >> You don't like that? Oh, you like me? >> Oh, no. Oh, yeah. Well, okay. Okay. Go
00:25:49
back to >> meat kettle. >> If you look at their track record and I think this is why we had a change there
00:25:57
is they have not done anything innovative and in fact the things they were doing that were innovating in AI or
00:26:03
self-driving cars, they shut down. They won't take any swings for the bat. So
00:26:06
they are getting penalized in their valuation penalized. They're just not getting a premium. They're not getting
00:26:11
penalized. >> I think they're getting penalized. >> Every metric they're trading at
00:26:14
incredible valuations. Just look at them. >> Oh no. I don't I mean if you compare the
00:26:19
two valuations, I think they're being penalized. Anyway, let's Anybody else
00:26:22
want to get in on this before we move on to the next one? Yeah. >> There is no world in which Google and
00:26:27
Meta and Apple and Amazon could be viewed as being penalized in valuation. There is very clearly a world where Elon
00:26:37
gets a massive premium because he's innovating. >> You're saying the same things. You're
00:26:42
saying the same thing the same thing. It's not the same. >> Listen, we're I think we're we're
00:26:46
debating semantics here. I'm not letting you off the hook, Saxy Poo. When Sax is
00:26:52
very deliberate in how he speaks, they said he's the captain of the debate club
00:26:55
in his 20,000word article this week and that he's a master debater. He's a
00:26:59
masturbator. And you slipped in. You slipped it in. Are you saying that the FTC or whoever should be going in and
00:27:08
looking at anthrop Oh, Brad's book is getting attacked headwinds. You said they're a monopoly or they're heading to
00:27:15
monopoly tactics s is that what you're saying? >> Well, look, I mean, we know that tech
00:27:22
markets have a history of consolidating down and turning into either monopolies or duopolies. And if you just look at
00:27:29
the revenue right now, there's only two companies making substantial revenue on
00:27:35
AI. It's Enthropic and Open AI. We know that OpenAI is growing at 3 to 4x, which
00:27:40
is incredible at the level of scale they're at. Enthropic though, we said, is growing at an exponential 10x a year.
00:27:46
And if they just do that for 18 more months, they'll be by far the most valuable company in human history. And
00:27:53
they'll have unprecedented control over the most important technology of our
00:27:57
time. So, I don't know what you call that, but it is something to think about. And I guess I do have a thought
00:28:03
experiment for you guys, which is I just want you to think for a second about the
00:28:10
case of of John D. Rockefeller, who I think is known as probably the most successful, most ruthless
00:28:18
>> monopolist in in American history. But he wasn't very good at PR. He was
00:28:22
terrible at PR. Everyone sort of recognized how ruthless he is. We've seen movies like There Will Be Blood,
00:28:28
which is basically about him. In any event, imagine if John D. Rockefeller was way better at public relations, and
00:28:35
instead of calling his company Standard Oil, he called it safe oil. Okay, let's
00:28:40
just let's just play this thought experiment. >> Clean, beautiful coal. Yes,
00:28:43
>> safe oil. He called it safe oil because, as we know, kerosene is dangerous. Their
00:28:48
first big product was kerosene. And kerosene can light your house or it can burn it down. and in the wrong hands it
00:28:55
can torch a city or you can use it to make a bomb. So John D, let's say should
00:29:02
have called for the creation of a new government agency to regulate the safety of his product and they could have done
00:29:08
rigorous testing, licensing, common sense regulation. There would have been a very intense debate over safety
00:29:14
standards, you know, what should the proper wick thickness be and should we allow all those dangerous independent
00:29:21
refiners, right? And I think people would have gotten so wrapped up in this debate over what constituted safe oil or
00:29:29
safe kerosene that they would have missed what was really going on, which is that Rockefeller was building the
00:29:34
richest, most powerful monopoly of all time. In fact, people might even have called Rockefeller an effective altruist
00:29:41
because of course he was so concerned about the safety of his product. >> I love it. Shout out to David Sax's
00:29:48
writers. Great great writers. Newman. Newman wrote this. >> No, I wrote it.
00:29:53
>> Emmy award for best writing in a dramatic monologue goes to Newman. Wow.
00:29:58
Sax writing. He landed it. Very good. Sax, >> I thought after the Elon anthropic dant
00:30:04
where Elon said, you know, complimented anthropic that and David started off with a bit of a compliment. I thought we
00:30:10
maybe were past this first. It's ridiculous to think of this as a monopoly. You know, we're talking about
00:30:15
annual run rate revenues, David, but on a gap basis, they're doing about the
00:30:19
same revenue as OpenAI in the month of March. Okay? So, we're way ahead of ourselves. By the way, 5 months ago,
00:30:25
everybody thought Open AI was going to run away with this. Google's revenues
00:30:29
are very substantial in AI. And by the way, Google, Amazon, etc., these companies are producing hundred billion
00:30:36
dollars of free cash flow to justify their incremental investment. At the same time, you have these two startups
00:30:41
that are still fledgling, that are still fragile in the scheme of things. You of
00:30:46
all people should know we've got the best competition in AI on the planet, which is why we're at the frontier and
00:30:52
kicking the tail of everybody else on the planet. So, I just want to see these companies compete. I want to see DC stay
00:30:58
out of the way. The last thing I want to be doing is is is, you know, seeing people talk about this and throwing
00:31:04
roadblocks into the way of the competition. Um, I think I agree. >> Well, let me let me hold on. Let me
00:31:10
translate Brad for you. Don't [ __ ] with my paper is what he's saying. He's got
00:31:14
bets on these. So, Sachs, Washington, DC, don't [ __ ] with Brad's paper.
00:31:19
>> Saxs, uh, do you want to get into the, uh, regulation stuff right now as a
00:31:23
segue or >> Let me respond to Brad and also translate what I'm saying satirically.
00:31:28
Okay. >> First of all, nobody wants to see these companies compete vigorously more than
00:31:35
me. That was the whole premise >> of the action plan that we worked on last year is we want to bring out the
00:31:41
best in everyone. This is how America's going to win the AI race. We have five
00:31:45
major labs vigorously competing and as long as that competition is taking place that I think that's a good thing.
00:31:51
Doesn't mean we can't have guardrails and the rest of it, but basically competition should be our northstar. All
00:31:57
of that being said, okay, what I am pointing out and I I think it's historically true that people in
00:32:03
Washington have woken up to monopolies on the late side, not early, right? Because I mean, once a company has won
00:32:12
80% of the market, that's when they wake up and say, "Oh, we have a monopoly
00:32:15
here." And I'm not saying that they have a monopoly yet. But if the trajectory
00:32:20
continues for just 18 more months, >> then I think it will be in this unprecedently powerful position. I mean
00:32:29
>> and and hold on and I don't think people should be distracted from that fact by
00:32:34
this rhetoric around safety because someone like Rockefeller could have used it too. And I do think I mean just like
00:32:41
one one last point on this. I do think that if you actually look at what a lot of the the safetiest policies are
00:32:49
calling for, they're basically calling for a form of regulatory capture and they're calling for things that would
00:32:54
create a stronger moat around this monopoly or duopoly that's in the process of being created and it would
00:33:01
get in the way of competition. So again, I think that people might not have such
00:33:07
a charitable view of all this safety rhetoric if they understood that what was being created here is the biggest
00:33:14
monopoly in human history. And I think we should just be a little bit more skeptical about some of these altruistic
00:33:20
claims. I can't believe that David is like, you know, talking monopolies when
00:33:27
we haven't even left the starting gate of AI. I I I I think this is a uh I to
00:33:34
me >> there's only two companies with revenue. >> The last thing I want is DC trying to
00:33:39
preemptively preemptively, which would be like a disastrous consequence, get in the game of picking winners and losers
00:33:46
at the starting line of AI. That would be a disaster. >> Brad, did you just put another soap box
00:33:51
on top of the soap box you were standing on? >> Look, Brad, like I said, my northstar is
00:33:57
competition. As long as there's competition going on, I support it. However, hold on, hold on. We know
00:34:03
>> that monopouists want to stop competition and they use regulatory capture to do it. And furthermore, they
00:34:09
do things like ban their competitors from using their product. What conceivable reason did Anthropic have
00:34:15
for banning OpenClaw using its models? That is anti-competitive, is it not? >> I I I would double click on it. I would
00:34:23
double click on it. I might not, you know, file, but I would double click. Okay, listen. Chimoth, the girls are
00:34:28
fighting. Let's keep moving through the docket. We're going to be here all day
00:34:31
with these two. And uh one thing that you're going to need to act on very quickly is the all-in summit. It's
00:34:37
selling out fast. Don't miss it. Speakers are top tier again. Freeberg busy working on some amazing speakers.
00:34:43
Saxs will be there. Uh he's flying in and out every day for four hours. And then we're we're going to have a lot of
00:34:49
networking stuff going down. We're building some networking software. So when you come to our events, you get to
00:34:53
meet people. That's what we always say. my playbook for events. If you learn
00:34:57
something from the speakers every day, one or two things, if you meet somebody new and you eat some great food and have
00:35:03
some fun, you get two or three of those things. Ah, man. Even if you get one, you're going to come back to the event,
00:35:07
you're going to get all three all day long. allin.com/events. Los Angeles, September 13th, 14th, and 15th.
00:35:15
Apologies to everybody asking, but liquidity is sold out and we've shut down the wait list. There's just no more
00:35:20
room. All right. The White House allegedly, possibly is considering, according to reports, an FDA for AI that
00:35:29
would vet, you heard that correct, folks, that would vet new models for safety. The thing we've been talking
00:35:35
about not doing here, the thing David Saxs has spent the last year on, the White House is considering. New York
00:35:41
Times reported Trump is considering an executive order to create an quote AI working group. This group would include
00:35:47
tech exeacts and government officials who would quote examine potential oversight procedures
00:35:54
including quote a review process for new AI models. Oi according to the report the catalyst was wait for it anthropics
00:36:03
mythos model which reportedly scared spooked made people really nervous at the White House. quote, "The White House
00:36:11
wants to avoid any political repercussions if a devastating AI enabled cyber attack were to occur. They
00:36:18
want a CYA, according to the New York Times." Kevin Hassid, that guy, the director of the National Economic
00:36:25
Council, confirmed the report on Fox Business. Here's your 15-second clip. We're studying possibly an executive
00:36:31
order uh to give a clear roadmap to everybody about how this is going to go and how future AIs that also potentially
00:36:38
create vulnerabilities uh should go through a process so that you know they're released to the wild after
00:36:43
they've been proven safe just like an FDA drug. >> Additionally, friend of the pod Scott Bessen had
00:36:51
something to say. What we had in the past month was a step change in the power of one large language model, but
00:36:58
we're going to see it from the other a AI companies. What we are determined to
00:37:02
do is work with our AI companies to allow them to continue innovate. But our charge of the US government is
00:37:09
maintaining safety. And there there is a very important calculus here between innovation and safety. And at the the US
00:37:18
government, we're going to make sure that things stay safe. There you go. Kevin Hasset and Bessant. Slightly
00:37:25
different positions here. Brad, what do you think? >> Actually, I don't think they're slightly
00:37:28
different positions, but I I I would agree that Kevin bringing up the FDA kind of muddied the waters. I talked to
00:37:33
Kevin last night after that clip ran, you know, and I asked him I I just said, "Do you think FDA is the right analog
00:37:41
here?" And he said, you know, I was I was only bringing it up to say that they
00:37:44
we want them to show us the models so that we can coordinate them. Obviously, our job is to make sure that the
00:37:50
government is prepared, that we harden our systems, that our intelligence agencies are up to speed. But he does
00:37:56
not think, and I can't find anybody on the right, you know, uh, that believes
00:38:01
that we're going to move to an approval regime, right? The approval regime, this
00:38:06
idea that you're going to have to share every model with an FDA in Washington
00:38:10
and they're going to have to pre-approve the model is a disaster. Sachs has been
00:38:14
effectively fighting against this correctly over the course of the last year. It would just it would lead to
00:38:20
three bad things. Number one, we do not want to put the wa Washington in in the position of picking winners and losers
00:38:26
when it comes to these models. We're winning. We're on the winning horse in
00:38:29
America. We're out in front of the rest of the world. There's no reason to
00:38:33
change horses and regimes at this point. And we don't want to burden this with
00:38:36
more democracy. But at the same time obviously I call these pre-agi or agi models mistral spud etc. I see a lot of
00:38:45
coordination going on between the industry and government. I think we can do an even better job of evolving that
00:38:50
framework so that everybody in government is on the same page. We need to build more capacity in government to
00:38:56
quickly be able to do the cyber review on these models. Right now it takes too long when the coordination does occur.
00:39:03
So we need to have a finite amount of time that they get government feedback etc. But the last thing that we want is
00:39:09
an FDA of models sitting in Washington. Kevin understands that. Scott Besson understands that. So I expect that we
00:39:16
will continue down the path that we've been on. Chimoth obviously I think we
00:39:21
all agree we don't need an FDA for AI but there are things that reasonably people would want to have guard rails
00:39:30
around a AI. I'm sure you would agree it shouldn't be a total free-for-all. So,
00:39:35
what's your take on this? Is it just somebody gave a bad analogy here or maybe some people were weasling their
00:39:41
way into the White House to try to shift things when Sax was back at home or something? What What's going on here?
00:39:46
Give us the uh cuz that's what that's what people say. They say the last
00:39:49
person to talk to Trump kind of has his ear and that things can bend a certain way.
00:39:55
>> I don't think it's that. I think that there's a pretty profound vibe shift
00:39:59
with respect to tech, tech oligarchs, Silicon Valley, and particularly the AI. That vibe shift has already happened on
00:40:08
Main Street, and I think that that's starting to seep into Washington. I think that regulations are coming. I
00:40:16
think they'll be worse under a Democratic regime, but I think that some form of oversight is going to exist
00:40:22
under a Republican regime. The question that I think is worth asking is why. And if you listen to everybody's tone,
00:40:33
it's all around the negatives of AI. So I think we suffer from two things. Number one is we have horrible
00:40:39
messaging. Nobody spends the time and the money to articulate the positive upside case so that there's broad-based
00:40:49
support. And two, the idea that there's going to be, as Sach said earlier, a few
00:40:55
winners and many, many, many potential losers, I think is really disconcerting to everybody. And the response from the
00:41:03
tech community again should be the leadership of the tech world coming together and actually reinvesting in
00:41:12
America at large. They're not doing that in enough of a scale that blunts this.
00:41:17
So what you're seeing is the buildup of antibodies. Is it avoidable? Yes. Are we
00:41:23
doing a good job of avoiding it? Absolutely not. We're doing a horrible job. I'd give the community, the tech
00:41:28
leaders a Dminus, trending to an F. The response is what we're seeing. So I think the question, Jason, isn't
00:41:37
regulation, no regulation. It's why did we get here? And I think we got here
00:41:42
because the other version, the glass half full version, the demonstrated investment, the broad-based uplifting of
00:41:50
American society hasn't happened. And if it has, it's been very poorly communicated. And so the response is,
00:41:56
hey, hold on. We're going to give three guys trillion dollar net worths and we're going to allow them to control the
00:42:02
keys. That's why this is happening. >> Exactly. Correct. And it's very easy,
00:42:07
Sachs, to imagine all the bad things that can happen. Our minds are constructed to do that. We're vigilant.
00:42:13
We look out for the tiger or, you know, the tornado to keep ourselves safe. Humans have a bias towards safety and
00:42:21
they're going to think about, you know, deep fakes. They're going to think about
00:42:24
robotics. They're going to think about self-driving cars, taking people's jobs.
00:42:27
They're going to think about, you know, all the dark things that could happen,
00:42:30
boweapons, etc. And we don't have anybody out there really talking about all the positives that could happen.
00:42:37
What's your take on the palace intrigue we all have here? What's going on in the
00:42:43
palace in the 47th administration around this debate? Who's leading Trump down
00:42:49
the path of regulation and creating this AI FDA? We know you're part of the camp
00:42:55
that wants to keep this train moving and not overregulated, not have regulatory capture. Who are the people trying to
00:43:01
slow this down? >> Well, look, I I think there's several things going on here. The first one is
00:43:06
there's a lot of fake news. This whole idea of an FDA for AI, I don't think any
00:43:11
senior official supports it. Just like Brad was saying, I spoke to Hassid as well. That's not where his head is at.
00:43:17
So, I don't think anybody in the administration is saying they want an FDA for AI. Certainly, I don't think
00:43:24
that's the way the president thinks about these issues. He's the most pro-
00:43:27
innovation president we've ever had. And the White House chief of staff, Susie
00:43:30
Wall, just put out a statement last night that I think pretty much shoots this down. So I think there's a big fake
00:43:35
news component. Remember it was not really the White House who was saying it. It was the New York Times and there
00:43:40
and really I think actually Andrew Ross Sto I'm not criticizing him but he's a
00:43:45
commentator and he's the one who said this first and then somehow that spin or
00:43:50
that gloss somehow took on a life of its own. And I think Silicon Valley reacted
00:43:57
accordingly. There's a very visceral negative reaction here because we know how damaging that would be to
00:44:01
innovation. But look, I think the good news is that that was fake news. Second, I think that there's another thing going
00:44:08
on, which is a straw manning of what the Trump administration did on AI in its first year. And in the same way that
00:44:18
they want to spin this FDA for AI, they're also trying to spin what we did as this completely lazy fair attitude
00:44:25
where there'd be no regulations whatsoever, no guardrails. It's a way of
00:44:29
criticizing what we did. They're trying to portray it as unsafe. In fact, if you
00:44:33
look on March 20th, the White House released a national AI regulatory framework that I worked on in which we
00:44:41
put out a four-page bulleted list of legislation that we would support if Congress wants to pass it. So, we have
00:44:49
not been against every conceivable regulation or every conceivable law. We just believe that there should be
00:44:56
specific solutions to specific problems as opposed to a giant power grab by Washington that would squash innovation.
00:45:03
So I think that's point number two. Point number three is there is a legitimate thing happening here with
00:45:10
let's call it mythos or cyber. Okay, we know that it's not just mythos. Open AI
00:45:17
now has a model that's just as cyber capable as mythos. And within 3 to six months, all the major frontier labs and
00:45:24
including Chinese models will have cyber capabilities. In response to that, we do need there to
00:45:31
be a hardening of systems and we do need there to be a scanning of code bases to
00:45:37
find these vulnerabilities and patch them before the hackers do it because the hackers will have these capabilities
00:45:44
in a matter of months. That's a certainty because the same capabilities you use for cyber defense can also be
00:45:50
used for cyber offense. It's the same tool set and the open source models will
00:45:55
have these capabilities anyway. >> They already have it to a certain extent. Let's be honest, they have 80%
00:45:59
of it. >> It's simply the case that AI will be good at cyber and so we do need a
00:46:04
response to that. Now my view on what should that response be should be first of all we should want the government and
00:46:13
the private sector to work cooperatively and I think they are we have a giant cyber security industry in the United
00:46:20
States whose sole job it is to protect systems and protect against breaches. >> We have the best companies in the world
00:46:28
at doing that. We have Crowd Strike. We have Palo Alto Networks. We talked about
00:46:32
that before. We have the best defense. >> Right. Exactly. And so what we should be
00:46:36
doing I think is getting these tools mythos and then the open AI model and and others like it in the hands of our
00:46:43
cyber security industry. And by the way not just the public companies like Palo Alto Networks and Crowd Strike although
00:46:49
certainly they're two of the most noteworthy but there's also some incredibly strong startups on the way up
00:46:55
there that are at the cutting edge of doing AI powered pen testing and all the rest of it. We need to get these tools
00:47:02
into their hands as quickly as possible because they're a force multiplier for
00:47:05
all the companies out there that aren't that good at cyber security or maybe
00:47:10
they've got IT departments. They can use these companies as vendors. So I think
00:47:14
that there is a role for >> Can I ask you a question? Yeah. >> Do you think that the models should
00:47:20
have a KYC rapper going forward? >> KYC for the audience is know your customer.
00:47:25
>> Yeah. So really what it would mean is that before you can use mythos you have
00:47:30
to identify yourself so that we can try to know that you're not a state sponsored actor or you know a bad guy.
00:47:38
>> I think that's the type of thing that we should be thinking about. So first of
00:47:41
all I want to say that both anthropic and open AI acted responsibly here. No one was trying to release these super
00:47:48
powerful models. So, in a way, all the people who are saying that we need pre-release approvals for models,
00:47:54
they're trying to solve a problem that didn't exist regulated. >> Yeah, they probably wasn't trying to
00:47:58
release. I wasn't trying to release this. They all understood the power and they were all acting responsibly.
00:48:03
>> They understood the ramifications. They would have been sued. So, they there is
00:48:06
a self-p policing going on here, which is the ultimate way to do this. >> Yes. And but to your point, Jimoth,
00:48:12
yeah, look, I think that before giving your API for a super powerful model, you should not give that to a company or an
00:48:19
actor. You don't know who they are. So, yeah, some basic KYC makes sense. They
00:48:23
should know who they're giving these tools to. And I guess my view on the mythos preview and whatever the
00:48:28
equivalent is of what OpenAI is doing is that we very rapidly need to get these tools into the hands of more good guys.
00:48:36
You need to know who those good guys are. You need to know who they are. So yeah, KYC is like a predicate for that,
00:48:43
right? You got a new >> just to be clear, we'd all agree that if you did have identity for those frontier
00:48:49
models, which they're probably doing anyway right now, and you logged what people were doing with them to look for
00:48:53
security breaches, that wouldn't necessarily happen when you released it to the public because of privacy issues.
00:48:59
Here's your Poly Market for Trump ordering a federal review of AI models by May 31st. 21% chance I think uh to
00:49:07
our partner at Poly Market. Man, I I got to get in here. I don't Do I have inside
00:49:11
information here being uh the world's greatest moderator on this podcast or I
00:49:15
can Can I collect this money? Chimoth, what am I going to do here? >> I would not do not do not place a bet.
00:49:19
Jal, >> don't place a bet. >> Don't place a bet. But anyway, Chim's
00:49:23
point, I mean, look, I think we're kind of workshopping this in real time. >> We are.
00:49:27
>> I think that I think that for the preview period, we should definitely have KYC.
00:49:31
>> Maybe. >> What about logging? What about logging? Well, look, once you're past the preview
00:49:35
period and it's in general release, I'm not sure if the KYC matters as much
00:49:39
because so many people are going to have it. But during the preview period, there
00:49:42
should be KYC. >> Let me let me just say one thing. All the labs are already tracking API use.
00:49:48
Okay? And anything suspicious because they there there are major anti-distillation efforts going on by
00:49:54
all the labs. There's a ton of coordination going on with the government. there's way more happening I
00:50:00
think in terms about API and API use um and anything suspicious is being flagged
00:50:06
and being shared with the government. So the idea that we have no idea who's
00:50:09
doing it I think is not the case and in fact in some cases we may want to allow people to use it so that we can see
00:50:17
exactly the types of things that they are extracting. So I would just I would say we're already down that path but
00:50:23
better coordination may may in fact be called for. >> Yeah. And just one last point in this
00:50:28
whole thing is I just want to build on my point that pre-release approvals is solving a problem that didn't really
00:50:33
exist because again anthropic and open AI weren't trying to release these models yet is that there is a
00:50:39
substantial faction of let's say AI idologues or doomers who are basically employing the classic
00:50:47
never let a crisis go to waste strategy right that yes we do have this cyber issue that is real you know everyone
00:50:55
needs to harden their systems now >> totally over the next 3 to 6 months. That is a real issue. But that is a
00:51:01
problem that we will solve over the next 6 months. We have to. But what they're
00:51:04
trying to do is use that issue to try and create a permanent new infrastructure in Washington. Again, I
00:51:11
don't think the admin that's not the administration's intention. That's not
00:51:14
the administration's agenda. But you saw a lot of people on social media, a lot
00:51:19
of the think tanks and even Bernie Sanders weighed in and he said for the first time, I like something that the
00:51:25
Trump administration wants to do. >> The administration understands the 1% of
00:51:29
the 1% of Sachs and everybody understand that this is out of control. The AI is going to take the jobs. They're going to
00:51:34
take my summer home. It's going to be terrible. >> So, there are people who have this
00:51:38
agenda. Look, Bernie Sanders just wants to stop the progress. I mean, he's >> he wants to ban data centers. He's put
00:51:44
out a bunch of He he basically has bought into the whole doomer narrative. So look, that's
00:51:50
why he likes the FDA idea is because it would put the kibos on innovation. >> It's enough already. Let's give let's
00:51:57
have a go back to paper and pen. It was a better society. Saxs >> Jason, what do you think?
00:52:01
>> I think there's two really interesting things I want to build on here. The
00:52:04
first is your point Shamath around how do we turn around the sort of bad vibes around AI? I think we have to have two
00:52:14
strategies here. One is giving what you've been working on Brad with your project we should see more people
00:52:19
giving. There's no reason why Nvidia SpaceX when they go public anthropic when they go public open AAI
00:52:27
if and when they go public or if they become stay as nonprofit there's no reason those folks in an IPO couldn't
00:52:33
give a portion of the IPO to every American citizen. So IPO K, IPO for kids, they all take, you know, whatever
00:52:40
it is, 5%, 1%, whatever they choose, and they put it into the Invest America accounts and we should see some major
00:52:48
giving from the people who are becoming trillionaires, 100 billionaires, whatever it happens to be. There's no
00:52:53
reason not to. But those people haven't been doing that. We had this giving pledge which was a little bit of virtue
00:52:58
signaling and it wasn't real. It was just, you know, at the end of your life,
00:53:01
you promise to give away half your money. So let's have something real. Let's have something where you know
00:53:05
people say I'm going to give away 1% of my stock over the next 20 years of my
00:53:09
life every year 1% will go into invest America whatever it is it won't cost anybody anything you can't spend this
00:53:15
money whether it's Bezos or whoever second in that same thing in terms of giving back we have not talked about how
00:53:22
massive this could be for health and extending people's life and reducing suffering we need to work on that that's
00:53:28
where contributions to basic science could come in and obviously education and lowering the cost of education And
00:53:34
if you look at what Americans on the bottom half, you were talking about the, you know, cup half empty, there's really
00:53:40
two or three things they really feel anxiety about. One of it is income and the second is healthare and on the
00:53:48
margins, housing and their kids, you know, their kids' education, the cost of
00:53:52
those things. We should really take a look deeply at, and I know this is very unpopular amongst capitalists, including
00:53:58
myself. We should really look at the minimum wage and study what happened in New Zealand, Sweden, Switzerland, uh,
00:54:04
Australia when they raised it. What actually happened when they raised it, and there was a lot of hand ringing
00:54:08
about it, but when they slowly raised it, what they found was those consumers don't save money. They spend it. They're
00:54:13
always behind the eight-ball in terms of their spending. We should opt in to trying to raise the minimum wage company
00:54:20
by company by company. and just give people who are at the end of the spectrum that understanding that, hey,
00:54:26
year-over-year, whether it's Amazon or Target, etc., restaurants, we're all
00:54:32
collectively going to add a little bit to that minimum wage and try to lift the bottom third of society. That's the
00:54:38
stuff we're not talking about. We don't talk about it here on this podcast. We
00:54:41
don't talk about universal healthcare. We don't talk about the minimum wage,
00:54:44
but that's what capitalists should be talking about. And if we did that, if we
00:54:48
increased the minimum wage, and I'm not a socialist. I'm a capitalist who think
00:54:51
this is good for capitalism. If we increased the minimum wage just modestly each year and we opted into doing that
00:54:58
and we figured out a way to give universal healthcare, companies wouldn't have to deal with universal healthcare
00:55:02
and we would have customers and we're a customer-driven economy. Like 60 70 80%
00:55:07
of what happens in this country is driven by the consumer. We need consumer spending. It's great for companies if we
00:55:13
had more people being able to buy Netflix or order [ __ ] on Amazon. Anyway, that's my that's my TED talk. Thanks for
00:55:19
coming. How do we get from AI to the minimum wage? I'm still >> No, because of the black eye. No, the
00:55:25
black eye we have in this country with polarization of wealth and people scared of losing their jobs. We We should look
00:55:31
at why are they scared, David. And I've talked to you privately and you said to
00:55:35
me privately, you can strike this if you want, but you said to me privately, you
00:55:38
wouldn't be against necessarily figuring out a way to un do universal healthcare
00:55:43
if there was a way to do it. You want to see every human have healthcare. Yes. >> Sure. Sure. I mean the issue is not the
00:55:50
desiraability of it. It's the cost. I mean >> and so you're a great entrepreneur of
00:55:55
our time. How would you do it? Have you given any cycle to it? >> I just I haven't studied that issue. So
00:55:59
I don't know. I just know. >> How about you study the country's >> I remember what PJ Oor once said which
00:56:05
is if you think healthcare is expensive now just wait until you make it free. >> Yeah.
00:56:11
>> So you take away all the incentives and you have an even bigger problem.
00:56:15
>> Minimum wage. Yeah. Go ahead. Well, let me just please get back to AI. Listen,
00:56:19
you guys are right about the unpopularity of AI. We've all seen those polls, but I want to just put up this
00:56:24
additional poll that came out about the salience of this issue, which is how important do people think it is? And AI
00:56:32
ranked 29 out of 39. So although AI is not very popular, it is certainly not top of mind for voters. It's not in the
00:56:39
top 10 issues. It's not in the top 20 issues. What is top of mind for voters?
00:56:43
Number one, cost of living. Number two, the economy. And we know that AI is deflationary. It helps with the cost of
00:56:50
living and it's creating an economic boom right now. Okay? It's 75% of GDP
00:56:57
growth in Q1. By the way, that that economic growth is not just limited to startups in Silicon Valley. We're seeing
00:57:02
a construction boom. We're seeing a blue collar boom. We're seeing 25 to 30% wage
00:57:07
increases for uh construction workers. >> Absolutely. >> And so on down the line. So,
00:57:12
>> and Brad, if you if you look at that chart, there's healthcare in there, too.
00:57:15
>> So, look, my point is that AI may not be popular, but the effects of it actually
00:57:20
are popular if the media would honestly report what was happening, which is AI is creating an economic boom right now.
00:57:27
>> It couldn't be better said, David. You know, Bernie Sanders calling for a
00:57:31
moratorium, shutting out all data data centers. We'd have negative GDP growth
00:57:35
this year. The stock market would be down 15 to 20%. Unemployment would be on the rise. You know there is a
00:57:42
consequence to the government controlling through command to control the economy. In 1929 we had 4%
00:57:48
unemployment. 3 years later it was unemployment was 23%. Because government got involved in
00:57:54
regulating everything and shutting down you know what was working. That is the greatest threat we have here. AI is
00:58:00
delivering huge net benefits today in terms of unemployment rate in terms of economic growth and productivity growth.
00:58:06
We need to tell the story. But to Chamas earlier point, we also need to deliver net benefits. Jason, thanks for the
00:58:12
shout out. Yes, every American having an investment account that compounds with the upside of AI. We're going to do
00:58:18
that. Going to deliver that and that's going to be massive. But I also think
00:58:21
ideas like if we're going to put a data center in Abalene, Texas, let's make
00:58:25
electricity in Abalene free for the households in Abalene, Texas. Right? There are ideas that can deliver net
00:58:31
benefits. We got to deliver those. I think we're optimism will be on the march. I think we're in the trough right
00:58:37
now. >> What's your take on minimum wage and universal healthcare? Brad, how do you
00:58:41
think about it as a capitalist, as an innovator, and in the face of AI, which could have a dramatic impact on these
00:58:46
issues? >> You know, like Zach, I, you know, to me, I haven't spent a ton of time thinking
00:58:52
about those except that as a society, we're $38 trillion in debt. We haven't
00:58:56
been able to afford to deliver those things. I generally think the market works out those issues better than the
00:59:02
government top down trying to you know the government gets more and more involved in healthcare and the only
00:59:06
thing that happens it gets more expensive. So we've all seen the charts of the most expensive categories where
00:59:10
we've had inflation education healthcare etc. It's where the government's
00:59:14
involved. I actually think if you just let the markets work entering an into an age of abundance a lot of these problems
00:59:20
are going to be solved. People are going to have a lot of AI coaches in healthcare and education etc. Let the
00:59:26
market work. government stay at bay, keep things safe. We're on a good march.
00:59:31
>> I think this proves my point perfectly. If you talk to any founder, they're not
00:59:35
thinking about housing. They're not thinking about higher education costs. They're not thinking about minimum wage,
00:59:41
you know, and they're not thinking about healthcare all that often. Some some do,
00:59:44
though. There's some innovation there. And it's because it's so regulated that
00:59:48
entrepreneurs and VCs are just like, "That's kryptonite. The government has
00:59:51
poisoned the well. We can't participate in that." And that's the roadblock. And
00:59:54
that's where Americans are suffering. And that's where it would be great if
00:59:58
founders actually put their minds to it. And the government's got to get rid of
01:00:01
all that regulation and let us cook in those specific verticals. All right. The market is in hyperdrive. Hyperscaler
01:00:08
revenue has made the markets move up. We hit on this briefly, but we didn't have
01:00:14
you here. Fifth best EBG. Cloud computing on a tear. I referenced it earlier, but AWS is now on $150 billion
01:00:22
run rate. Azure 108 billion. GCP, Google Cloud, 80 billion. There's a little bit
01:00:27
of fun with numbers there because Azure and Microsoft include some of their software products in there and Google
01:00:31
Cloud includes things like Google Office or Google Suite in there. But the growth
01:00:36
numbers are tremendous. AWS, which is the more pure play of the three, 28% growth on a very big number. Azure 39%,
01:00:45
Google Cloud stunning everybody with 63% growth. It is incredible what the ARR numbers are. Google Cloud Edit 10, AWS
01:00:55
10, Azure 9.5. So basically 30 billion collectively. Jammond Ball who works for you uh I think put out some data on the
01:01:03
Twitter. Brad markets at all times high all-time highs. Mag 7 cooking Uber blowing out growth. Disney blowing
01:01:14
out growth. The consumer seems absurdly strong based on those two bell weathers.
01:01:20
Tech seems extremely strong based on the cloud computing. What's your take on the
01:01:24
overall market and overall economy? Obviously, inflation up a bit, people hand ringing about the never-ending war
01:01:30
and the cost of oil. >> Let's just telescope way up. You know, the level of criticism directed to this
01:01:37
administration, right? Tariffs were going to cause hyperinflation. We're going to destroy GDP. Uh conflicts in
01:01:44
Venezuela and Iran were going to do the same. You know, we've heard all of the
01:01:48
negative stories, but what's happening? Accelerating GDP, a tenure that's
01:01:53
sitting at 43, inflation totally under control. AI, AI, AI, comput, compute, compute. We're leading the world. It's
01:02:02
contributing massively, right, to GDP growth in the country. We see the S&P only up 8% this year, right? So, we're
01:02:09
not into bubble territory here. Meta's trading at 17 times, fully tax gap earnings. Nvidia at 19 times, Microsoft
01:02:17
at 20 times, Google at 24 times, and then the memory stocks that everybody's
01:02:22
excited about. We have 25% of our portfolio in SKH Highix five times fully taxed gap earnings. Samsung six times,
01:02:31
Micron 7 times. Right? This is not the stuff that bubbles are made of. You know, David referenced it earlier. We
01:02:38
started the year Open AI and Anthropic were doing combined about 30 billion in revenue. Now combined 4 months later 80
01:02:46
billion in revenue. The the policies of this administration on the economy are working. They're working in in spades.
01:02:54
Our gap on the rest of the world in AI is growing. And so from from my perspective, you know, uh you know,
01:03:01
we've been all in on the market. I talked about it earlier in the year. We're heavily.
01:03:05
>> When did you make that switch to go all in on the market? Because you were
01:03:07
bearish. >> I would say toward the toward the end of last year. The market had run up a lot.
01:03:12
We had a lot of these questions. Listen, entering this year, there was a huge question hanging over the market. Would
01:03:19
the AI revenues show up? If the anthropic revenues hadn't shown up and we didn't see this reaceleration out of
01:03:26
the hyperscalers, the market would be down 10 to 15%. Because people would say there's no ROI on all of this
01:03:34
infrastructure. Exactly. When I saw the numbers start showing up in December and
01:03:39
into January, we went from medium to large in terms of our exposures and 80% of our exposures or more have been in
01:03:47
compute, AI, memory, etc. >> And this is why it's great to operate in the private market and the public market
01:03:52
because you can see things in the private markets that inform the public markets. But the question remains, Brad,
01:03:57
how much better would the economy have been doing? you know, as much credit as you're giving to the administration if
01:04:04
they didn't start a hundred billion dollar war that we did not need to go into according to all reports. And if we
01:04:10
didn't do a bunch of tariffs that wound up being unconstitutional by the Supreme
01:04:15
Court, which Trump himself put in, we would have been further ahead. That's uh
01:04:20
my take on it. We would be ripping even more if we didn't have those uh >> Jason, it's hard to it's it's hard to
01:04:26
imagine. Okay, just to set up again here. It's hard to imagine a more goldilock situation for the United
01:04:33
States of America. We have reset the table geopolitically. The discount rate globally is actually coming down, not
01:04:40
going up. Evidenced by markets at all-time high and the bond market in control. And then look at the private
01:04:46
markets. We have multiple trillion dollar companies that have been created in the private markets that are now
01:04:52
coming public. SpaceX coming public is going to be a multi-trillion dollar, you know, open AI anthropic. Like at some
01:04:59
point, you just have to acknowledge USA is winning. Of course, there are always things that we could be doing better,
01:05:05
but there's not a country on the world that wouldn't trade all of its fortune
01:05:10
for the United States fortune today. >> 100% in agreement, American exceptionalism as embodied by the great
01:05:16
companies in America, SpaceX, Google, etc., all the ones we've been talking here. That is the story. And I give
01:05:23
infinite credit to this administration for being businessfriendly. I do think they've made two critical mistakes. I
01:05:28
think the tariffs were poorly executed and I think we shouldn't have gone to
01:05:30
this war. Um, and we should find a quick resolution to it, which the administration seems to be desperately
01:05:36
doing. Sax, your take on the economy? >> Well, look, we have an AI boom going on
01:05:40
right now, and I think that's thanks to President Trump's policies. Remember the
01:05:43
first week he was in office, he rescended the Biden policies on chips and models. And what were those
01:05:49
policies? It was the approval regime that we're talking about. Models would have to go to Washington to get approved
01:05:55
if they were trained with some number of flops. And then every sale of a GPU worldwide would have to be licensed from
01:06:02
Washington unless it fit into some narrow exemptions. So the whole approach of the Biden administration that
01:06:09
President Trump inherited was everything approved in Washington. He rescended that. He declared that we had to win the
01:06:15
AI race and he unleashed uh our companies to do that. Now one other really important thing is energy.
01:06:21
Remember it was this president going back a decade who said drill baby drill. He said we have to unleash American
01:06:27
energy. That's the basis for the American economy. It's also the basis for AI. He also has said that he wanted
01:06:34
to allow our AI companies to become energy companies so they could bring their own power to these data centers.
01:06:40
So they're not drawing off the grid. They're not competing with consumers for
01:06:43
electricity. They're generating their own power. And it's thanks to this
01:06:47
president that we have seen this bluecollar construction boom right now powering all of this infrastructure.
01:06:54
What would the alternative have been? We know I mean Bernie Sanders has said it would have been ban on data centers. So
01:07:01
>> yeah raise tax data centers. It's that would be a much a much worse choice. Uh
01:07:07
Chamal, I'll give you the last word here as we wrap on the economy generally. I
01:07:12
think the markets are going to keep going up for a while and then at some point they're going to
01:07:16
go down. >> Okay, I wrote it down. Uh, Chimath, you said markets are up and then eventually
01:07:24
they're going to come down. Those are the two things up and we put a U here and then a D here.
01:07:29
>> He's got the I think you're doing an impression of the taking notes emoji. Is
01:07:34
that what you're doing? >> Yes. Okay. Ups and down. Wow. Thank you for tuning in to AllIn where you can get
01:07:40
your great calls and market action advice. It's going to go up and then down folks act accordingly. Go Chamat in
01:07:46
all seriousness but what what what makes you bullish you know let's say in the
01:07:50
next uh 6 months 12 months catalyst and then what do you think the headwinds are
01:07:53
as well? Let's take the you know the short to midterm 6 months to two years.
01:07:58
I think that in the short term the people that makes the new thing needs to get valued and needs to
01:08:10
demonstrate value. So who are the people making the new thing? It's the Nvidias,
01:08:15
it's the memory makers, it's the anthropics, it's the SpaceX's and uh
01:08:19
it's the open AIS. But eventually it all comes home to roost. And you can't just make things for a market
01:08:28
who then doesn't have a measurable benefit themselves. To be very clear and blunt, there is
01:08:34
literally not a cintilla of evidence that AI has helped lift the operating margins of the S&P 500. There's all
01:08:42
kinds of bluster. There's going to be an important fork in the road. It's
01:08:46
probably two or three years from now. One path will be opex shrinks, hence margins increase and the other path is
01:08:54
revenues grow and margins expand and opex stays flat but or maybe it even goes up. Those two things are very
01:09:01
important differences because in the former you're talking about shrinking workforce and shrinking opex as a
01:09:07
percentage of operating margin and revenue. In the latter you're actually growing through it. The answer to that
01:09:13
question I think is critical about how the markets will respond and how society will respond. So I think we have kind of
01:09:20
call it 500 days where you just got to be net long. But I think it's literally
01:09:28
in the hundreds of days from now 500 you're going to have to have an important reckoning moment. The people
01:09:37
that are paying for all these tokens need to see an actual benefit. >> Yeah. That that's reasonable. Yeah,
01:09:42
>> that's a really interesting point. Let me connect a couple of dots here between
01:09:45
something Jamal said and what Brad said, which is Brad said at the beginning of the year, we went into this year with
01:09:50
this massive capex, this massive investment infrastructure, but people weren't sure that the ROI was going to
01:09:56
be there in terms of model revenue. And that was true and then the model revenue
01:10:00
has proven out. And now what Schmoth is saying is that we're going to be at another fork in the road soon in terms
01:10:05
of whether there's going to be ROI on all those tokens that are being sold and
01:10:11
generating the revenue for those model companies. And I agree with you that that is not proven out yet. But I'm
01:10:17
optimistic that it is going to be proven out and otherwise these you wouldn't be
01:10:22
seeing >> look I >> enterprises continue to to buy hold on let me just point you wouldn't be seeing
01:10:28
enterprise continue their month overmonth spend on coding tokens if they didn't feel like the ROI was going to be
01:10:34
there but you make a good point which is what is the impact on the economy going
01:10:38
to be when all of this new software this bespoke software that's being created
01:10:44
through again all these coding tokens are being bought It's going to power a
01:10:47
wave of productivity like I think we've never seen before. So I think what you're seeing is the ROI is getting is
01:10:54
sort of trickling down from infrastructure to model to application to end user and I think it's going to
01:11:00
create an economic boom. >> I I got to I'm with you Saxs. This is deja vu all over again. We watch this
01:11:06
happen with the PC revolution, the internet revolution, cloud revolution, mobile revolution. We had all this hand
01:11:11
ringing. Will this ever pay off? Should I build an app? Should I build a website? Should I not? Should I move to
01:11:15
the cloud? Should I keep it on prem? All of these questions over and over and over again. And then they went from
01:11:20
question marks to exclamation points. I can tell you inside of my firm, we have started, we were using agents, then we
01:11:25
started building code. And I've got three people on the team who are making all the interfaces and products that a
01:11:30
22 person investment firm should not be making internally. They should be using SAS software. And they are shipping
01:11:38
product day in and day out. The ROI is fate complete. Brad, it is fat or complete. I think this has been decided.
01:11:45
I think it's been decided. >> It has not been decided at all. It has not been decided at all.
01:11:49
>> You have 8090. You're working with the big enterprises. I invest in 100
01:11:52
startups a year. I work with the small ones. It is fate a complete with startups. They are building software.
01:11:57
They're shipping. They are getting massive value from these tokens. And they're getting so much value that they
01:12:02
don't have to add, you know, but half the number of employees that they would
01:12:06
with the same amount of capital. They're getting further with less money. It is
01:12:10
working in startup land. I don't know what's happening at 8090. you would have
01:12:14
a better picture obviously of the enterprise. Tell us what you see there. >> I mean, our business is doing well, but
01:12:20
what I'm trying to get across to you guys is that you can't will profits to
01:12:26
go up. Okay? So, ultimately what happens is I'm just going to take a company randomly.
01:12:33
Annheiser Bush, they have to eventually sell more beer. Okay? Take Nike. they ultimately have to
01:12:43
sell more shoes. Take a medical devices company. They have to sell more artificial hips and knees. So the point
01:12:50
I'm trying to get across is right now there's an enormous amount of very
01:12:54
constructive and creative experimentation. But I think it's what is also true is a
01:13:02
lot of that has not yet proven value. I don't think that means it's going to
01:13:06
stop. All I'm just trying to say is until a company can trace very directly I spent X and I made Y where Y is now
01:13:14
greater than X and it's lifted my margins. That is the thing that causes the
01:13:20
flywheel to spin faster. And right now we've started the first part of that equation. We've spent the X
01:13:28
and we have not seen the Y. You would see it in global GDP. You haven't. You would see it in global
01:13:35
productivity. You haven't. You would see it in the global profit margins of the
01:13:38
S&P 500. We haven't. It doesn't mean it's not coming. >> Brad, you want you want to pick up on
01:13:43
this because yeah, I'm definitely taking the other side of it because I'm seeing
01:13:46
with a lot of these companies, >> massive lowering of costs. Their ads are
01:13:50
getting more effective. At the same time, they've stopped hiring. They're
01:13:53
not adding positions in a lot of cases. And things like, just picked the Nike example, a lot of the photo shoots they
01:14:01
used to do for their app, excuse me. A lot of the imagery they used to make, now they're able to make more of it
01:14:06
without having to hire photographers and do that stuff. I know this example because we have a startup that does this
01:14:10
specifically for brands like Nike. They've seen a massive drop. We have one that helped Door Dash with their food
01:14:16
pictures. All those pictures used to have to be taken by photographers. Now it's all done by AI. Massive reduction
01:14:20
in cost. And they're using ads and ad creative now. that is, you know, you know, double digit percentage more
01:14:28
effective while costing half as much. So, I definitely think we're seeing it
01:14:32
on the earnings, but is is that true? Are you seeing it in the earnings of these companies yet?
01:14:36
>> Yeah. So, so two data points. Number one, we just saw Azure grow 39% in the
01:14:42
quarter. We saw Google Cloud grow 63% in the quarter. Headcount growth for those
01:14:47
companies the last 3 years, Mag 5 combined is about 3%. So, their operating margins are all expanding. If
01:14:54
you look at the S&P 500 at large, in Q1 of 24, operating margins were about 11.8%.
01:15:00
That was up from 11% in 23. This year, they're 13%. So, we've had a 200 basis
01:15:06
point improvement in the operating margins of the S&P 500, which is massive.
01:15:12
>> Do you think that's AI across those businesses? And Chimath, I think that
01:15:16
that's the question where where it could donuts, it's not AI. >> Yeah. So, so any amount of money. I bet
01:15:24
you are the same financial engineering that got these earnings to rise in the last decade.
01:15:29
>> Yeah. So I I I think that's the question. Are is this margin expansion
01:15:33
durable? The forecast the consensus forecast and estimate is that margins are going to continue to expand over the
01:15:40
course of the next 2 years. You and I both know back in 22 23 we went from the age of excess to the age of fitness.
01:15:47
Right? A lot of these companies were able to shed people, you know, with the excuse of AI just because they had
01:15:53
become uh, you know, uh, uh, too excessive during the period of co. So I I think it's a legitimate question
01:16:00
whether or not that's all from AI. But I will tell you anecdotally, it maps for
01:16:04
me. I'm hearing like Jason and David, a lot of these companies that are, you
01:16:08
know, uh, really growing their top lines at an accelerating rate without expanding headcount nearly at the same
01:16:14
pace. Okay, Sax, I'll give you the final word while we're wrap. >> Brad was talking about how we got all
01:16:19
these operating efficiency improvements. The unemployment rate stayed at historic
01:16:24
lows during that time. I mean, the economists consider full employment to be 4 to 5%. And we've stayed at, you
01:16:30
know, the low low 4% 4.2% roughly during this time. So, you're able to get these
01:16:36
efficiency improvements while unemployment is still extremely low. Moreover, there was just a big article
01:16:43
saying that the unemployment rate for young college graduates has dropped. So, you know, there was this whole narrative
01:16:50
recently that recent college graduates were going to have the hardest time finding jobs because, you know, there's
01:16:55
going to be no no work left for entry- level jobs because of AI. And in fact, it has gotten easier for recent college
01:17:00
graduates to find work recently. Maybe that's because they're AI natives. Maybe
01:17:04
that's because they know how to use AI better. So in any event, I mean, we're
01:17:09
just not seeing any evidence yet of these theoretical downsides of AI around job loss and unemployment, and we are
01:17:16
starting to see big productivity gains. >> Yeah, I this is going to be a circular
01:17:19
discussion, but yeah, there's a lot of conflicting evidence. The last piece of
01:17:23
conflicting evidence obviously is the labor participation rate because if you are not even opting in to participate,
01:17:30
then you, you know, don't get counted as unemployed. And that's been, I think, a
01:17:35
big challenge. 61.9% in March. Labor participation rate back in uh before we were at 63.3. Yeah. And college
01:17:43
graduates are hearing different stories. Certain degrees getting jobs, other ones
01:17:47
not getting jobs. >> It's too early to tell. Uh I think is probably what we all agree in. And it's
01:17:53
a it's a mixed bag. >> Agree with that. >> No. Look, whenever whenever I have data
01:17:58
to refute one of your narratives, you always say it's too soon to tell. >> No, no, no. What I do
01:18:02
>> online Wall Street Journal Nick put it on the screen. College graduates are
01:18:05
finally catching a break in this job market. >> Yeah, >> Jake, you should be happy about this.
01:18:10
>> I know. I'm Listen, I'm happy anybody gets a job. But what you do is then you
01:18:13
say we don't trust the numbers and we should get rid of the Fed and we should
01:18:16
get rid of the numbers. So, we all know >> we should get rid of the Fed. That was
01:18:19
But you you get rid of the Fed because we don't like the numbers. Listen, it's
01:18:22
all great. Welcome to the debate club. >> What did I say? >> You said abolish the Fed. Abolish the
01:18:28
Fed. What is the Fed here for? All right, listen. Enough. We're getting into Trump
01:18:33
derangement syndrome or Trump bend the knee syndrome. It's the end of the show.
01:18:36
We had a great show, everybody. We had some laughs. We all learned. We workshopped some stuff. Let's leave it
01:18:41
where it is. Great job, President Trump. >> I want to I want to congratulate
01:18:46
>> Oh, here we go. >> I want to congratulate all of our innovators. And I want to congratulate
01:18:50
Elon and um Daario D. Rockefeller on their recent deal. >> Oh, shots fired. He's getting straight.
01:18:57
Come on anytime, Daario. Hey, you know Dario well, Brad. Well, get him on the program next week. I want him on the
01:19:03
program. Have him come. >> Will you ask him for me? >> I um >> Will you ask him for me?
01:19:09
>> Well, sure. I'll ask him. And yeah, you know, the the fact of the matter is
01:19:13
>> I think our lucky stars that we have Elon, that we have Anthropic, that we
01:19:18
have OpenAI, that we have Google, that we have Amazon, all innovating in this country. And you know, I know we like
01:19:25
to, you know, kind of poke poke fun on the edges at these things, but the fact of the matter is, you know, I see them
01:19:32
all showing up, sharing their models, driving as hard as they can to innovate. We have the best competitive framework
01:19:38
in the country. David's right. It's been transformed over the course of the last
01:19:43
14 months. We need to stay the course. We're on the winning horse. We just had
01:19:47
the derby last week. We're on the winning horse. Stay on the horse. America for the win. America for the
01:19:54
win. >> There it is. Senator Brad Gersonner. I think if you're gonna run, you got to
01:19:57
get rid of the red glasses. We gota get maybe to shells in there. But I think you got a you got a serious shot.
01:20:02
Senator Senator >> I like I like secretary better. >> Secretary. >> Secretary. Who's Yeah. Secretary of the
01:20:10
Treasury. Brad Gersonner. >> Secretary. >> Secretary of State David Saxs. Secretary
01:20:16
of Cashmere and Wine. Chamath Paul. what are you doing with your uh >> there's so much fake news out there
01:20:21
because I mean look I totally agree with everything Brad said look I poke fun at
01:20:24
at some of these companies for some of the things they do but I am happy that they are American companies and that
01:20:29
they're innovating here congratulations on your dad >> yes and look there's so much fake news
01:20:36
out there I mean we just covered on this podcast how beneficial some of these economic trends are you never get it
01:20:42
from the media >> no >> and they are trying to derail us from from you know the the policies that have
01:20:48
been so successful Yes, but but they did some great inspiring coverage of micro looting. So get your microl looting on.
01:20:55
Congratulations, New York Times. We'll see you next time, everybody. Bye-bye.
01:20:59
Love you, boys. Love you. >> We'll let your winners ride. >> Rainman David
01:21:10
and we open sourced it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it. >> Love you, queen of
01:21:17
all. Winners, >> besties are gone. >> That is my dog taking your driveway.
01:21:31
>> Oh man, my appetiter will meet you. >> We should all just get a room and just
01:21:35
have one big huge orgy cuz they're all just useless. It's like this like sexual
01:21:38
tension that we just need to release somehow. >> Wet your feet. >> That's going to be good. waiting to get
01:21:47
merch. I'm going all in.