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foreign [Music] welcome back to another episode of the waveform podcast where your hosts I'm Marquez and I'm Andrew and in this
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week's episode we go remote and I speak with a guest so we're gonna jump into that but basically and we'll get to the trivia at the very end since I didn't do trivia in the middle of it but it was an interview uh a lot of people don't know
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about this but roughly once every year minus the pass to you for the pandemic but roughly once every year YouTube
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gathers together uh the sort of top 100 creators in the Americas North America and has a North American Creator Summit where they bring all these creators together in one hotel and put all the
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YouTube Executives in the same hotel and everybody fights I'm just kidding everybody has conversations and
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understands not just each other as people better but the the the economics of the way if new features work and the way new things that YouTube are happening and it's just an understanding that I don't think I've seen any other
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platform do it's really interesting they also have one for I think Asia and Africa and they have one for Europe and they have a couple other Creator Summits but I've been at a bunch of these creators Summits now and
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they're usually a really interesting uh a good time and I usually come home with notes and I think it's a really unique
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thing that YouTube does it's like an open discussion between how all the top creators are feeling while also having
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YouTube Executives there right to just all kind of have almost brainstorming or just like clarification aspects yeah and
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there's always like a thing like a theme about like what's happening on YouTube at that time is the Hot Topic like this
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time it was shorts like this was the creator Summit where everyone had questions about what YouTube is doing
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with shorts there was new feature announcements that we'll get into I remember the year that it was the adpocalypse where like they knew what
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all the questions were going to be about and they just had to answer them all and that's the the one time that you get
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some real answers out of YouTube Executives instead of PR answers and I find that super useful so anyway this
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time I actually got to on top of my time at the summit with everybody there I got to spend some time with Neil Mohan he's
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the chief product officer at YouTube and he was like yeah we should record our conversation and just like talk about
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YouTube and we'll put in the podcast and this can all go out with the announcements that YouTube recently made so we did that we just we're in this
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like extremely ugly Suite in the back of a hotel somewhere it looks terrible but
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it is a very useful conversation it's an interesting setup yeah it's we just we just made it happen at the last second
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audio is great though so audio listeners you're not going to notice it yeah you won't even know what's going on in the
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video version it's great um so we we did jump right into some of the interesting stuff like between the
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last time we spoke YouTube got rid of the dislike button he knew I was going to ask about that so I was very curious
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to hear what he said talked about things like the algorithm how it affects creators how creators sort of push back
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against the algorithm um I also brought up a very recent study that I read on the plane ride to the
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Creator Summit which was about how the algorithm sometimes doesn't change when you tell it you're not interested in something yeah so a bunch of interesting
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stuff just to hear what people who work for YouTube on these actual features actually say about this stuff so I think
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that's pretty much all the intro it needs roller tape all right Neil thanks for joining me on
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the podcast this week we appreciate the time thanks for having me Marquez huge been a long time fan so glad to be here
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oh thank you thank you very much that's great coming from Sony YouTube I like hearing that so speaking of YouTube
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what's your uh your official title and what would you how do you describe what you do to someone who asks maybe you
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have like a quick sentence or two elevator pitch type thing sure yeah so my official title is I'm the chief
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product officer at YouTube I've been at Google and YouTube a very long time at this point coming up on a decade and a
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half and um you know the way I describe my role is all the products that you as a
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Creator all of our viewers around the world all of our partners uh use on a daily basis that's ultimately my team's
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responsibility so I look after our products from the main app to YouTube kids to the music app to YouTube TV all
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the user design and the Aesthetics of the product and I also am responsible for what we call trust and safety which
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are our community guidelines and content policies that govern uh the content on our platform
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got it yeah YouTube is when you put it like that it's a lot of different products that all work together there's
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tons of things happening but you mentioned design and UI so I'll just jump right to it you guys got rid of the
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dislike button or the dislike counter about how long ago is that a few months ago a few months ago now I'm almost coming up on a on a year actually at this point okay I figured you were gonna
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ask me you got it you invited me here you know what I'm going to get into how's that gone uh and what sort of
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processes go into making a decision like that and and do you think it went the way you expected yeah I'll so on on the
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on the first part of your question and I know you you um uh of course had had you had a very
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strong point of view on it and um of the thesis as as you rightly pointed out in in all of your comments was um a well-being thesis for our creators
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that was the fundamental reason it was about um everything from dislike brigades to you know kind of that sort of that sort
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of count Olympics likes dislikes that sort of thing and uh it was not a trivial decision and I'll get into kind
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of the decision-making process in a second because I think that was like a canonical example of sometimes how some
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of these hard decisions are made but in terms of how it's going um I think that at the highest level
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it's going um the way that we expected it to which is we feel um or at least I feel that it was the right decision based on the data that we're seeing and so we looked at
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um a couple of things we looked at one from the Creator standpoint which was this notion of
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um you know just like brigades and things like that and that has been that is down so when we look at sort of the
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same period year on year so I think we looked at um most recently I think the last month so
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kind of August September of 2022 versus August September of 2021 it is down now of course that's not a controlled experiment but it is something that we looked at year on Year and that was
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something that was kind of the Creator facing uh metric that I was interested in looking at yeah the second thing
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though which I think you you alluded to in your video which um I think was was was something that um I wanted to track because it was a good point which is how
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is that um signal used like the the glance at sort of uh point that you were making around ratios Etc and we have seen um again year on year sort of roughly
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the same time period user satisfaction with the videos and we measure this in a number of different ways not just
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behaviorally but as you know you've seen the the surveys that show up um in the feed sometimes asking about specific
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videos that number has gone up year on year now again that's not a control number and there's lots of factors that
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can go into whether that number goes up or not one of them being just we're getting better at recommending content
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or search ranking and those types A lot um yeah but we have an idea of sort of roughly how it goes up and those things
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those changes to ranking and recommendation uh tweaks those are controlled experiments and so we are
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able to understand sort of what those add up to and I think that our feeling is that looking at a number of these
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signals it hasn't it at the very least hasn't had the impact that people were worried about in terms of people not
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being able to find the right videos and searches and things like that um and so those are just I'm just giving you sort of ballpark of some of the metrics we're looking at we'll continue to monitor that to see if that continues
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but that's sort of roughly how it's going on your second question um what I would say there is that I think it's a good example of the types of decisions that we make and that
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ultimately come to me I always say that you know if a decision is coming to me to make in a product review or what have you oftentimes it's a choice between two
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bad options or two not perfect options otherwise the decision would be made at you know multiple parts of our
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organization and this was a was an example of a very difficult decision because it involved a lot of the
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trade-offs that you made and so the teams put together proposals when we were getting this feedback from creators
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and and the like we looked at a number of different options things that we could do
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um you know and ultimately we made the hard call that when push comes to shove one of the things that we will air on the side of is the well-being of our creators and that is you know ultimately
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a decision that was made in you know product review with not just me but our product managers you know our leaders from other functions across across across YouTube
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um once we once we got some of the data some of the feedback and then we also at that point committed that we would
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follow this over time as well right yeah I mean it's I mean from my perspective it seems like it's something that's sort
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of averaging out it's evening out the behaviors are now it looks normal again every time there's a UI change on
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YouTube it takes a minute before it's not jarring anymore to me because I use YouTube so much um but a really interesting point that
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you made and I think I've maybe heard some other Executives say something along the same lines which is like if a
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decision gets to me then it's probably a really hard decision because there's so many people who work on these things and
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if it's getting to the highest level without a resolution it's a big it's a big call for you
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um how do you know when something is big enough to get to that level because when I think of YouTube as a bunch of
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different products there's inevitably like little bugs or like little things that pop up here and
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there may be worth acting on maybe not worth putting time into how do you know when something is uh actually a big
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decision coming to you that you'll eventually have to make a choice on yeah it's a really good question and and I
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the way I um the way I think about my role um not just in terms of sort of helping make those decisions or tie breaking or what have you is setting up the mechan
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the mechanisms so that that process actually happens um smoothly and for me I think it comes
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down to kind of three things one is um uh uh is about the people so we need to build an organization that um is full of talented people obviously
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focused on our creators and viewers and looking to do the right thing if we don't have the right people building our
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products on a daily basis then then you know none of this matters right that's that's that's the the Bedrock of
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everything but then I think there's two other things one is uh um having a set of principles and so one
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of the ways that I like to to think about YouTube is we have a set of uh core principles whether whether it comes to our product decisions our policy decisions
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um things like you know uh you know YouTube is an open platform but we also have Community guidelines those are two
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principles that are in tension but they work together to also reinforce each other um you know creators come first in terms
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of how we think about the heart of YouTube and what it is and I I have found that having Crystal Clarity on
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those principles and repeating them over and over is sort of the lifeblood of a product organization because then product Managers generally are empowered
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to make decisions along the lines of those principles and that and you know there's thousands of decisions being made every day on behalf of viewers and
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creators so that way not everything bubbles up to me and then the final thing is besides people and and
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principles is just having sort of the right processes in place by which those things get escalated very quickly so that they don't Fester I think one of the things that is poison in an
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organization a product development organization is decisions festering because people feel like they need to
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bring a consensus decision to me as opposed to two competing viewpoints and so having the processes by which it is
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okay to escalate those uh and you know and escalate those quickly I think is very important makes a lot of sense I'm probably gonna have to use these tips in future organizations I'm a part of
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um but you know I think one of the things that's always struck me about YouTube is and you've said it already a
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couple times it's it's a very creative first Creator facing organization and especially with tech and other companies we've seen Twitter and Instagram and Tick Tock and all these others we're
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speaking at the Creator Summit right now which is uh something I don't see other companies doing for some reason I think
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it's a great idea and we're doing it in person and it's in person which is you know it's crazy we haven't it's been two
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or three years since the last one um but I also wonder and I've wanted to ask someone at YouTube this for a long
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time in this 2022 World of I guess it feels more visible than ever that people kind of Chase the algorithm in a way that rewards them
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but it also shifts their content in the way they run their businesses and I'm curious if you think about the
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decisions that you make at YouTube and how they affect what creators will then go try to do to keep up or to match it
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so there's algorithmic changes that happen all the time you know whether it's switching from views to watch time
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to whatever and inevitably you see not just optimizations from creators but like full-on like chasing the absolute maximum of it do you think about that at
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all with the way creators sort of push it to the extreme yeah I think that's a really great question and actually I
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think it gets at the heart of um uh how we think about our products you know we think I think about what
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YouTube is is like we're building we're really building a stage a stage for you as a Creator to do what you do best to show off your talents and it's got to be the world's best stage and then also you
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know with the best seating lighting Etc so that the viewers can enjoy it uh as well and so that's the analogy but to
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take your to to take your very specific point I think it's an important one because we believe and this goes back to
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the principles point I was making before that our job is to help our creators succeed over the long run to build
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careers on our platform and so what that means is that it's not about um you know kind of like uh whatever like uh you know Sugar Rush flavor of the moment kind of
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a thing whatever is happening in terms of the algorithm or some particular Trend or what have you obviously those
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are important lots of Trends obviously start on YouTube but it's about the long run and so like one example that that I
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like to use is um you know a Creator on our platform a Creator an artist or what have you can
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use um YouTube shorts to introduce Their audience to a new idea it might be a new
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song it might be something else and that's 15 seconds 30 seconds and that can bring in uh lots of interest but
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very quickly um the the fans might be interested in learning not just about that neat trick
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or that song but who that Creator is and that's about um you know long form content that might
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be about a live stream that might be about you know engaging with the Creator and comments or after stage or in posts
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or in stories and so because we have this sort of truly multi-format approach to our creators we we believe that we're offering kind of that full Suite to
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their fans to really get to know the Creator and it's about the Creator it's about their name who they are what they stand for as opposed to you know what's
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happening this week and that's like a really really important thing um that I think is really core to
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YouTube and every time I talk to creators that's the thing that I hear over and over I was just with some
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shorts creators yesterday and that's the thing that they kept telling me is like that's the essence of YouTube never let
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that go when it comes to your product decisions and so I just it's a long answer to your question but I wanted to
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kind of describe that because it is a core principle and it's in the name and it's I guess that's in the original
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intention that's YouTube exactly yeah on that note we're going to take a quick break for ads we'll be right back with
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um okay so there's a question I wanted to ask also there was a study actually I think I just saw Yesterday by Mozilla
00:18:40
that the uh the no longer interested button or the dislike button don't have as much of an effect on future recommendations as probably expected
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and I wonder I imagine it's by Design everything on YouTube is in some way intentional but do you think users
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should have entirely control over these recommendations I'll give you a quote which is uh I think it's probably a Steve Jobs code but basically that users don't really know exactly what they want
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until you give it to them or show it to them and then they realize that's what I wanted the whole time uh there's a ton
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of people watching YouTube videos do they know what they want um you know the way so I believe
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um and I think you know my organization believes that uh that the viewers should
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be in control of what they are um how they're consuming YouTube and and that's down to the very basic levels right like
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if you don't want um YouTube to use your watch History or search history in any of the personalization you can turn that off
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like there are really really um fundamental controls in terms of how all of that works you described some of
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them in terms of feedback within the product themselves we use all of those signals I think you know we um the
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latest number I saw was something like we used like 80 billion signals a day in terms of what's being ranked in your
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home feed on your watch next Pages uh search rankings Etc and so um that's our bread and butter in terms of getting uh very very high quality about it uh and we do use signals like
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that what what we don't do and I'm not familiar with the details of of the study you're referring but I did hear
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about it um uh is um we do take those signals into account we don't um turn off entire topics because one of
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the things that we also get feedback on is you know make sure that users aren't being um inadvertently put into Echo Chambers or rabbit holes in a way that could
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happen and so uh while we honor the specific feedback in terms of the button um or what have you it might refer to the specific video as opposed to the whole topic uh and we use as I said a
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blend of signals to actually determine those recommendations and as you know Marquez probably better than anybody
00:21:09
we're always we're always tweaking them we're adjusting them because we're always
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getting feedback both direct from our users but also in terms of the data that we're seeing in terms of how the how the
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platform is being used yeah yeah my theory is that there are just so many signals that that little bit of input
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might not actually make as big of a change as people assume when there's so many other things going into the decision of what to recommend next uh
00:21:36
but I'll send you the study and yeah I mean one thing one other thing that I'll add to that though is um back to again sort of kind of core
00:21:43
Northstar principles we do look at things like um long-term user satisfaction like that
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is that's a core metric that we look at in terms of um uh how users are engaging with their
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platform are they satisfied in terms of what they're watching um is that something is that a trend
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that continues over the long term and we measure our launches by that uh longitudinally and so for me that's really the most important thing which is across our user base not only do they
00:22:14
have you know kind of immediate controls over sort of how their personalization is working but long term is the
00:22:20
recommendation algorithm doing what it was designed to do in the first place and so I think that's a really important
00:22:26
point that sometimes gets lost in these details is like we do have means by which we are measuring the overall success of what we're trying to accomplish on behalf of our viewers also
00:22:37
on the topic of like YouTube being a ton of different products uh this is a podcast we're gonna have a you know a
00:22:43
video version of our podcast up and you know YouTube when you think about it is one of the biggest podcast players
00:22:50
basically there's also YouTube music which is one of the biggest music services and every time I see those
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stats I always wonder why doesn't YouTube make like more tailor-made players for these specific types of
00:23:04
media I always pictured a different looking podcast player you know how you listen to music you get the next song
00:23:10
button but if you go to a podcast to get the 45 second fast forward button do you think about you know tailoring more
00:23:16
specifically to different types of videos as far as products at all obviously there's a ton going on with stories and shorts and all that but what
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about like podcast players and things like that yeah I do and so I mean I think that YouTube is
00:23:29
um uh a visual not just a visual platform but an audio visual platform you rightly point out music of course
00:23:36
music is part of the long-term you know Heritage of YouTube in many ways uh but podcasts are a big uh you know and actually the way I I describe it to our teams is you know we we are a
00:23:50
a very a very large podcast platform without us having done a lot frankly to support podcast creators um as well as listeners of podcasts I'm a big podcast listener myself and uh so
00:24:03
I what I'll say there is stay tuned because I do believe that um you know you gave me an example in terms
00:24:09
of controls like I think that entire experience in terms of everything from Corpus Discovery to
00:24:17
um uh uh Corpus organization to consumption to kind of follow-on for on the viewer side and then on the Creator side uh tools that they need uh that podcasters need right like their their
00:24:30
longer forms of content so things like um monetization via mid-rolls and things like that are more important in that context than they might be in others and so we're looking at both sides of that uh and
00:24:43
um we already have I think a pretty strong foundation in terms of how to deal with audio content with the YouTube
00:24:49
music app so stay tuned for for more that we're doing on the podcast front yeah yeah it kind of it reminds me of
00:24:55
what I was talking about earlier where like creators are like melding into the YouTube format like I love podcasts and I listen to a lot of audio podcasts but when I wanted to make a video podcast I
00:25:06
had to think about it as a YouTube channel and so we run them as a YouTube channel and in the YouTube way but you
00:25:13
know like you said there can be more done so I'm interested in that we'll see um but let's get to the announcement
00:25:19
that that came out recently which I think a lot of people here are very interested in and excited about which is
00:25:24
YouTube shorts monetization will now graduate from a Creator fund which is a fixed amount to revenue sharing platform break that down for us obviously the decision was probably pretty easy this
00:25:37
is a better way to do it but tell us how you arrived here and what exactly it is yeah um so this is a I think it's a
00:25:43
pretty big deal I'm I'm super excited about it uh as you know we've had the YouTube Partner program which is our kind of Flagship monetization program for creators I think since 2007 now and
00:25:55
it has you know eligibility criteria for it um it's a couple million creators that are part of that program yeah
00:26:02
um of course that's held Us in good stead for for creators for long form creators and we wanted to take the best
00:26:09
of that program and basically bring it to shorts and so in some sense you're right given the success that we've had
00:26:15
with the Creator economy and you know I think the the the number was something like we've given out 50 billion dollars
00:26:21
to our creators artists media companies over the last three years we want to build on that for shorts because shorts
00:26:27
is like this really rapidly growing format that we're seeing amongst our creator community and so we're going to
00:26:33
bring the ypp program to shorts there will be different eligibility criteria because
00:26:39
shorts of course is a bit of a different format and that's going to be 10 million views over a 90-day period and then you
00:26:46
know creators can apply they can be part of the uh can then therefore be part of ypp and once you're in ypp whether you
00:26:53
come in through the short store way or you come in through the traditional doorway you're basically part of ypp and
00:26:58
so both your long form content and shorts content can monetize okay cool um and so that's sort of the first thing
00:27:04
that I'll say the other thing by the way that we announced just as a quick aside was we're also going to be rolling out a
00:27:09
new lower tier for fan funding creators so these are smaller creators um who may want to just may want to monetize their content through things like super chat super stickers super
00:27:21
thanks Channel memberships uh and so that's something to stay tuned for in 2023 but back on your shorts piece
00:27:28
um the way you know obviously shorts ads work differently Schwartz is much more of a fee seeds consumption experience
00:27:34
and so we will insert the advertising from our ad Partners in that feed from a viewer standpoint and we will essentially pull together the views in that feed we will pay out
00:27:48
um uh things like music licensing costs and then from the Creator pool creators will earn 45 of Revenue and um and that's basically based on their
00:28:02
share of views in that pool over kind of a 30-day period okay I have a bunch of granular questions inside of it so I think it's a great announcement and obviously puts the pressure on some
00:28:13
other short form platforms to sort of follow suit I think that's pretty clear but okay so first of all 10 million
00:28:20
views in 90 days seems like a lot right but I also fundamentally think that a view on a short is is worth a different amount from A View on a long form video
00:28:32
so I think it's reflected in the 10 million views like if you asked a long form Creator to
00:28:37
get 10 million views in 90 days that would be a pretty big ask uh does YouTube kind of see it the same way I
00:28:43
imagine like a 100 to 1 Ratio or something like that yeah I don't have the exact sort of ratio or sort of the
00:28:49
breakdown there um but you know I think your analogy is right like it and that's the reason why
00:28:55
the criteria are different and so you know as you know on the on the kind of traditional uh long form side it's
00:29:02
um you know the the Thousand Subs by the way the Thousand Subs applies I forgot to mention that in the in the shorts
00:29:08
piece as well but the but the difference the main difference is the 4 000 hours over the course of of a year and so you
00:29:14
can see that that's based on kind of a time-based consumption as a as opposed to a view based consumption right a view
00:29:21
a single view you've seen people scroll shorts and tick tocks like you could watch for 0.3 seconds and scroll to the
00:29:27
next one I imagine just like long form content there's a way of determining what is a view and you don't just scroll
00:29:33
past them and all of them get a view uh uh I'm you're not gonna tell me what the exact criteria are but there is some
00:29:39
criteria right yeah yeah okay so you have to count views in a certain special way yeah and then you said 45 of the
00:29:46
Creator portion is that can you say that part again 45 yeah so um there's uh there's um there's a pool of views basically over the course of a
00:29:58
month let's say and um uh and then it's all the ad Revenue that's generated for that pool of views in a particular country uh there's a portion of that that will
00:30:10
go towards paying the music licensing costs and so just on that point as you know
00:30:16
um music is a really important part of short form video um it's a huge huge kind of component to
00:30:22
what our creators are looking for uh and so that covers that then there's basically kind of what what we're what I'm what I'm calling this Creator pool and that Creator pool is going to be
00:30:32
shared 45 with creators got it okay so it's not it's not uh 45 of all of the total revenue generated by the shorts but it's the total revenue generated by the shorts minus the amount to pay for
00:30:45
the licensing to be able to use music and then 45 of the remaining goes to the creators yeah and then the other thing
00:30:51
that I should say is that that um one of the things that we have done with this new uh shorts um focus
00:30:58
monetization program is make it so that that 45 percent is paid out regardless of whether you use music or not because we really wanted to simplify the whole sort of complexity that was associated
00:31:10
with music acquisition and Licensing which of course is quite a complicated process and for a shorts Creator
00:31:17
especially somebody who's looking to do something for 15 30 seconds it can be pretty daunting especially for for a new
00:31:24
Creator and so we wanted to make it so that regardless of whether you're using music or not in your in your platform
00:31:31
the monetization out of that Creator pool is the same yeah and so that was the other big sort of kind of innovation and there's a lot of shorts only creators here at the Creator Summit I
00:31:43
imagine do you imagine someone doing a lot of views and shorts will make the same as they were before or less or more
00:31:50
with this new model so that's a good question um I I am really excited about the
00:31:56
potential of shorts I do spend time obviously not just with our creator uh Community but also speaking with with
00:32:03
advertisers a lot of my career was focused on building Advertiser products and so
00:32:09
um uh and I see General excitement amongst our Advertiser community so I'm bullish I'm really bullish about uh the
00:32:16
way that YouTube is approaching shorts uh in terms of how that plays out in the long run in terms of monetization I
00:32:22
couldn't tell you today but I do think this shift away from this kind of limited shorts fund that we had in place uh to this full-fledged ypp program is
00:32:35
an indicator of how bullish we are about the monetization potential of shorts but the other thing that I I should say uh
00:32:42
just to be very clear is um you know YouTube and our creators have grown up on long form like
00:32:48
YouTubers invented that like we call it long form it didn't it used to be the original
00:32:55
exactly and that is front and center and everything that we do so much of my team's Innovation is focused on that live stream is another big format that we're focused on making sure that
00:33:06
YouTube Works incredibly well on living room devices is a really big uh component of our of our uh future as
00:33:14
well um shorts is as well but it's all of those other things and so that's why like I come I keep coming back to like
00:33:20
this notion of of truly multi-format it's up to our creators to do what works best for their audience and we need to support all of those formats yeah I I think it's it's clearly something that's
00:33:31
going to evolve over time we see shorts like with this explosive growth and tons of people going oh I gotta get in on
00:33:37
this I got to try to see if I can make sure it's it's funny I used to make three four minute videos and not even to
00:33:43
chase any algorithm but I've slowly made longer and longer videos over the years a normal review video for me is like 13
00:33:52
14 minutes long yep would have been an insane video back in the day uh but now I'm like all right let's try to make
00:33:57
some shorts and everyone I make is like 58 and a half seconds 59 seconds because I'm trying to jam all the information to
00:34:04
this short form thing but you know that's going to evolve over time too I'm sure I'll get better at it
00:34:09
um I guess lastly what sort of uh what stuff are you excited about for the future of YouTube this is just a broad nebulous question that you would be in a good position to answer so I'll just let
00:34:19
you paint whatever picture you want there's all kinds of tools products you could be working on tell me about it
00:34:25
yeah um I'm uh I'm super bullish I mean the thing that gets me up in the morning
00:34:31
just to be uh and has been sort of a theme of of my career is it really is supporting the Creator economy I mean I believe that it's because of YouTube uh
00:34:43
that your creativity and talents can get to people uh like you know like my 14 year old son like someone like him exactly like him on the other side of the world and
00:34:55
um that like is inspiring to me and so everything that goes into that from building audiences so support for
00:35:02
multi-track audio right so that your content is accessible to anyone all over the world right
00:35:08
um uh things like the monetization features that we rolled out yesterday this new Creator music uh Marketplace
00:35:15
that we talked about so that creators can continue to grow that way that is super exciting to me I alluded to this
00:35:22
earlier but you know there's so much conversation around things like shorts and as you know my team is very very
00:35:29
focused on it but I'm also focused on things like connected TV and the living room experience and how that continues
00:35:34
to grow and how we continue to innovate uh in terms of sort of longer form content there
00:35:41
shopping is another area you know peop lots and lots of our viewers tell us this through their behavior through their feedback that they come to YouTube to connect with their favorite creators
00:35:52
but you know just like you go to the mall to hang out with friends and be entertained have lunch and you might
00:36:00
purchase a hairbrush or a pair of jeans Etc that's all part of that experience we want to enable those types of um uh
00:36:07
those types of use cases as well and then the last thing I'll say just kind of because it's an important part of of
00:36:14
uh my responsibility is also continuing the Bedrock of all this is continuing to
00:36:20
live up to our responsibility as a global platform we didn't talk a lot about that today but we have a lot of
00:36:26
focus on making sure that um uh that YouTube is a place that is not uh doesn't is that has no home for hate or harassment or things like that and so that's the Bedrock of everything we do
00:36:38
and so those are some ideas of what I'm super excited about both for our creators as well as
00:36:44
um for for our viewers and all of our fans and I think kind of the next you know five years are going to be even
00:36:50
more exciting fighting than the last for sure I like the analogies man YouTube's a YouTube is a mall to hang out with
00:36:55
your friends and then maybe buy some stuff or YouTube's a stage with the best audience and the best Stage Neil thank
00:37:01
you for the time I appreciate it and hopefully we'll do this again sometime awesome looking forward to it all right
00:37:06
well that was a lot a lot to unpack we are going to unpack it a little bit right after the break see you in a
00:37:12
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z-o-c-d-o-c.com waveform zocotalk.com waveform all right welcome back so a little bit to unpack a little bit of reactions you've heard now the conversation I had with Neil you heard
00:38:20
his answers you heard some of his answers and his non-answers I am coming away feeling like okay I mean the
00:38:25
Creator Summit was obviously a whole experience and I was there for a few days and I talked to a lot of people and
00:38:30
like I have all my little notes but at the end of the day I do still feel like YouTube is the place to be for a creator
00:38:39
of videos online like that answers are not changing but there's a lot of interesting shifting in the landscape
00:38:44
maybe we can break down a little bit I mean the biggest thing obviously is the YouTube Partner program with shorts sure
00:38:51
I think yeah I mean like that's just the thing that kind of has grasped all the headlines um it's awesome we've talked about
00:38:57
Creator funds from Tick Tock and from previous YouTube fire under Tick Tock yeah I think so that's a question I have like right off the bat yeah is when I first read this
00:39:09
I I was really pumped for people who were able to make money but I can't decide if I think is this a move that
00:39:15
will whether it's what they want to happen or not but the end result here are we going to see tick Tuckers move to
00:39:21
YouTube making shorts or are we just seeing now a better platform for already I don't even want to say established YouTubers but people who focus on YouTube getting a better tool that
00:39:33
they'll utilize way more now so it's definitely both and I think it was funny in that room like I've been to all the
00:39:40
Creator Summits and look I watch a lot of YouTube so typically when I get to the Creator Summit I'm surrounded by
00:39:46
faces I've seen online for a long time this is the first Creator Summit where I was like I don't recognize most of you a
00:39:52
lot of people a lot of older I mean still a lot of the people who I've recognized were there but then there was a bunch of new faces and talking to a
00:40:00
lot of them they were shorts creators there are people who had come to YouTube whether it was from Tick Tock or they
00:40:05
just arrived on YouTube and they just made shorts I talked to a channel called Dental digest have you have you heard of
00:40:11
dental diet I've heard you talk about them before uh he just pulled up his channel and was showing me some of the stuff he was doing he had a a bunch of
00:40:18
uh toothbrush shorts 200 150 million views per short just talking about toothbrushes that's like that's what was happening around me at the Creator Summit wow so to answer your question yes this is aimed at tick tockers
00:40:34
who will see the opportunity to make money doing what they're already doing and start putting stuff on YouTube
00:40:40
that's for sure an intended consequence of what they're doing but I think it's also just as likely that you're going to see all of the algorithmic push and all of the focus on shorts
00:40:51
folk it start to to make other long-form creators try shorts that's exactly what I'm starting to do so I think it's both
00:40:57
are going to be happening yeah I like I see it as clearly a goal to grab people from Tick Tock yeah I wonder if the like
00:41:05
the audience is quite there yet to be like if you're coming from Tick Tock having say you're one of the demilio sisters and you're you're getting what 10 or 20 million views sure for like any
00:41:17
Tick Tock that you post and you just have a wild audience like there are just so many more people on Tick Tock for that content right now where YouTube is
00:41:24
always like Jack of all trades and insanely good at all of it and Tick Tock is so specifically focused on short form content there so is that audience quite there yet is it
00:41:35
worth I think most people will say yes is it worth getting paid that extra money on there when maybe you're not getting the
00:41:42
same viewership you are as Tick Tock how people will try to utilize both platforms cross-posting or if that's
00:41:48
allowed I it'll be interesting that's a whole okay a lot to unpack there so one the demilia sisters do have a YouTube
00:41:54
channel they've been posting long form stuff to very mixed success and I think this new ad Revenue sharing program which is rolling out soon will encourage them to do more short form stuff that
00:42:06
they're used to two is the audience there yes uh YouTube shares some numbers with us and I'm not going to remember
00:42:12
the exact numbers but it was some absurd billions and billions of total shorts views already that they've started serving and they can choose to flip switches to just show more people more
00:42:24
shorts so I think that won't be a problem as far as like should we make shorts are there enough
00:42:30
eyeballs there I think so okay and then what was the last part you said uh across across yeah cross posting that's a little more complicated
00:42:41
um I think basically none of the platforms like cross posting so if you are Instagram you are less likely to
00:42:48
want people to see shorts with a tick tock logo in it and I think they've already admitted that they're less
00:42:53
likely to push a video that has that branding in it but also when you make a video with tick tock's tools you get
00:43:00
that Watermark no matter what so if you make that video with Instagram's tools I believe you also get a reels Watermark
00:43:06
and I think YouTube's the only one that doesn't have as strong of a stance but is very likely to adopt one so but this
00:43:13
almost while this isn't a watermark I could see it as a way to so my initial Theory would be YouTube
00:43:21
wants you to get the views on your short therefore cross uh posting this on other
00:43:27
things is less views you will get on the short which is the thing that's making you money so why would you want to also
00:43:33
post that on Tick Tock right rather for like discoverability and stuff like that because I as many views as there are on
00:43:39
shorts I would argue there's probably still way more views on Tick Tock we've true I've kind of seen it ourselves yes but like if you're posting the same content on both platforms one is making
00:43:51
you far more money than the others so exactly you're probably going to want the exclusivity on that one yeah or
00:43:56
you'll at least never not put it on YouTube true I think that's the goal it's like I was I was gonna make the
00:44:02
tick tock anyway I might as well put it on YouTube because it might get some clicks it might make some money why
00:44:09
would I not want to invest a little bit of time there and potentially have that reward
00:44:15
um but yeah it's also just like yes all of tick tock is bigger than YouTube shorts but all of YouTube is still bigger than all of tick tock and I think as shorts grows the real question is is
00:44:29
that going to eat into long form or is that an entirely separate pie and I think most people are realizing now it's
00:44:36
a separate pie you don't you don't you don't take views away from your long form videos if you do shorts which is nice to see um I don't know that there's people who
00:44:47
watch it's kind of weird I get sucked into the carousels of all the apps now like reels I've scrolled through and then YouTube shorts and then Tick Tock
00:44:54
it's absurd how many videos You'll see doing just that scrolling but yeah I think it's two different pies it's you
00:45:00
bring up an interesting conversation of how it doesn't really eat into long form because I was just talking with Adam and Ellis about this previously we've talked
00:45:07
about doing shorts on all of our different platforms and I was kind of thinking of it as like MKBHD you know 10
00:45:15
to 20 minute videos is our bread and butter we then created the podcast for a more Niche part of that audience that we already have and made it longer because we wanted to talk about things in longer
00:45:27
form and get more nitty-gritty now we're going to create shorts which is almost the opposite we're going to condense the
00:45:33
video form and expands the audience that we're trying to reach Yeah by talking about potentially more Broad and general things in a much much shorter time which
00:45:44
is a whole nother Beast display it's very hard to brainstorm it is very hard I think it's also there's it's so young
00:45:50
that there isn't really like a formula yet like oh I think we know what like a basic short looks like which is either like someone lip syncing to an audio Trend or someone dancing there's like or
00:46:02
or like a joke there's like four or five general shorts but what is a tech short look like I don't think that's a really
00:46:09
well defined thing yet so I think that opportunity to like carve out a new vision of what you want that to be still
00:46:16
exists which is really interesting to me um I've tried some things we've tried like a little bit an unboxing makes
00:46:22
sense that's a short thing but it could be explainers in shorts it could be some
00:46:27
more well-produced animated looks and shorts like there's a bunch of a bunch of stuff we could try and we just it'll
00:46:32
just be a new audience that finds it and the potential really is for people who find the text short to then go on and
00:46:40
find the long form videos too that's the bet that we're hoping pays off I really like the idea of being able to update
00:46:48
videos throughout the year sort of through a short like if we do an iPhone review in in September interesting but
00:46:54
or yeah in September and then in June a big update comes out or people are wondering if they should get that phone
00:47:01
or whatever like you can do a one minute update without having to do like a whole six months later software updates six
00:47:07
months later one year later and yeah that could be a thing that's interesting I I do like it's always funny like
00:47:13
thinking about tech being such a subset like we talk to people like Jimmy Mr Beast and like there's all these
00:47:19
theories on like the algorithm and retention and things to maximize your ship and if you follow this formula the
00:47:26
ceiling is 300 million views on a video I've never seen a tech short or any Tech
00:47:31
video for that matter ever get past about 80 million views so it's just like a smaller ceiling so do you optimize for the tech ceiling or the general ceiling
00:47:43
like do you want this to be shared among tech people a lot or among everybody so
00:47:48
maybe it's less of a tech video you know what I mean that's a question I think we'll be trying to figure out for the next four to six months yeah exactly and
00:47:55
I'm excited to try I'm excited to see what sticks um and and I mean what happens really
00:48:00
what what people like and what people don't like and how it can pretty much just add on to the channel and provide
00:48:07
more stuff that's the way I want to think about it adding on yeah um so I kind of have like after this
00:48:12
whole interview and after this shorts announcement I had kind of a small Revelation about the video platforms on
00:48:22
the internet in general and this is kind of to hear that okay I I want to see what you think of this sure and it's
00:48:28
something that I've brought up multiple times on the podcast I've talked about twitch and live streaming and how there
00:48:36
are multiple times where I said I don't know how YouTube isn't like going for the throat of twitch because twitch is known to make some of the worst
00:48:42
decisions it's almost like they don't have to I they're just like twitch is constantly
00:48:48
on the Forefront of streaming they're the main platform for live streaming and it baffles me how sometimes because I
00:48:54
think in general a lot of the stuff about their players terrible I think a lot of the decisions they make are
00:49:00
terrible there's a lot of people who absolutely hate the staff there and hate how they deal with things so I always wonder how YouTube this giant company
00:49:07
run by Google hasn't just like taken them out yet because they have the capabilities there after watching this I've kind of decided that I think
00:49:19
YouTube is just playing the long game on everything oh yeah and I've realized it for a couple reasons so really quick to
00:49:27
start this if you haven't been paying any attention to Twitch in the last two weeks there's been a boatload of drama
00:49:33
and it's really stable over there yes a lot of stuff is going it's basically completely on fire if you watch Billy D um Ludwig has a channel called mogulmail where he's talks about everything Ludwig
00:49:45
I think you said you met him at the we thought yeah we chatted up yeah yeah he is somebody who's streamed on Twitch and
00:49:50
is on YouTube now so he knows the ins and outs of both the good and bad of both and he talks about it very publicly
00:49:56
um highly suggest going and watching some of his videos to know what's happening on Twitch but there's a ton a ton of controversies
00:50:03
have been happening then they throw out this rare announcement that's considered like probably the most widely accepted
00:50:10
and well-liked thing twitch has ever done which is Ban some gambling on the platform okay the day after is YouTube makes this announcements about YouTube shorts which doesn't seem to connect too
00:50:22
much but then twitch also makes an announcement announcement about cutting uh partner Revenue sharing from 70 70 30
00:50:32
to 50 50. and just like wow I don't know why one they're not uh for their higher
00:50:38
well it's turning into everyone but the only people who are at 70 30 were the like higher higher partner streamers so
00:50:44
it's like top X percent of streamers okay but those people are all having their income from twitch cut by 20 from
00:50:51
at least that part of twitch I know there's a lot of math people out here are gonna say it's not actually 20 when you take that section yes whatever
00:50:58
um so anyways that's just like this huge blow at the same time YouTube's announcing this like giant win on partnership program for sure it's like a whole new Avenue that they're doing a
00:51:10
great way to for people to get paid now at the same time in like as YouTube is in the media for doing well there twitch is also in the media for doing poorly there and then on top of all that all
00:51:24
the new people who have switched to YouTube who are live streaming are talking about how great streaming on
00:51:29
YouTube is riding the wave of the good YouTube press so it just feels like everything's kind of falling around twitch and the more I look at it the more I think YouTube's not going to kill
00:51:41
Tick Tock right now YouTube's not going to kill twitch right now but YouTube is slowly putting the pressure on them yeah
00:51:47
and in five to ten years they realize that they're going to be the platform that the main content of everyone's on
00:51:54
and now they're grasping all the links from all the different ways you can create and turning into one giant
00:51:59
content ecosystem yeah it's the walled content Garden this kind of reminds me of that question that we had before
00:52:05
about new social media platforms are they a platform or a feature and to YouTube they're all features right what is Tick Tock it is just a feature built into YouTube we've got
00:52:17
shorts it's just a part of the online video library they clearly view everything as a feature so what is
00:52:23
Twitch it's just a live streaming feature that we've also built in and we've got like the super thanks button
00:52:28
and the super chats and all this stuff built in so uh if you're YouTube you're not really too threatened by those that
00:52:36
do a subset of what you do because you can always absorb that as a new feature it might take a couple years there might
00:52:42
be a little spike in like people making a ton more money on Twitch but in the long run you know if you have this
00:52:49
ability to connect all these different things together if one Creator can do live streams videos and shorts there's
00:52:57
only one place to do that it's got to be YouTube right I mean it's pretty much if you look at a lot of these Mega stores
00:53:03
like Target and Walmart you know maybe they are not as good as a mom and pop shop here or a grocery store
00:53:09
there but when you start having everything in the same store you start rather going to that one store because it makes things far far easier so I
00:53:16
would like to go deeper into this analogy if you were selling a product where would you rather it be sold you
00:53:23
could sell way higher percentages in a smaller Mom and Pop Shop you could be like 90 of the sales of the Mom and Pop Shop which would be sick but if you sell in Target you're going
00:53:35
to get way more eyeballs and then you can sell other products and Target will have those other products too and then you'll have way more sales do you know
00:53:41
why that analogy doesn't work why because YouTube pays better also and is the mega store
00:53:47
oh yeah well so I mean yeah it makes it even better yeah yeah it's YouTube YouTube has the longevity I think I one of the earliest questions I got asked I did a little panel of the Creator Summit
00:53:59
because I have creators talk to creators too uh which is like why did you pick YouTube and it's like I like making videos
00:54:06
that's the Baseline and the question of like where would I go to watch a video is YouTube and that answer has been pretty stable for a while like we've had some others
00:54:17
pop up once in a while like I I go to tick tock for a video now and then I'll go to Instagram for a video now and then
00:54:23
but like if I'm going to seek out a video I mean Google is a pretty big search engine they're dumping people on YouTube YouTube is the second biggest search engine you're gonna find videos that way I just think that answer is not changing
00:54:35
anytime soon so to kind of wrap all this back into the beginning of this conversation remember how you said
00:54:41
there's a lot of faces that you didn't under you didn't recognize in your face I feel like asking that question also
00:54:48
proves that there's a lot of new faces there because why do you pick YouTube because it was 12 years ago and that was
00:54:53
kind of the only thing to pick yeah now there's way more options out there Vimeo it wasn't no it was like if you wanted
00:55:00
the live stream TV or yeah yeah yeah but now it's like there is also that the one
00:55:06
downside which is like sometimes YouTube leans into a new feature and then it kind of doesn't work out and they just
00:55:12
sort of silently ask it like stories remember YouTube had stories it still had I think it still is a thing you
00:55:17
mentioned that in the interview with Neil yeah and uh I was like yeah he didn't respond to stories yeah it's like
00:55:24
we know what happened there and I think their commitment to shorts seems much more deeply invested than it was other stories way better than stories so I'm I'm thinking that's that's a good thing
00:55:36
all right well I'm glad we got to have a conversation with him uh and I think we'll keep an eye on shorts moving
00:55:42
forward we're gonna try some shorts he heard it here first and the podcast Channel and the studio Channel and
00:55:47
everything just trying some stuff if you guys have ideas or suggestions about stuff that works best in short form
00:55:53
that's the conversation we're having in the studio and that's the type of comments we want to read so let us know what kind of stuff you think would work
00:55:59
well in short vertical form I think the only thing we have left to do now is trivia yeah yeah let's do it [Music]
00:56:11
I have the matte black one nice nailed it so Ella's just tried to talk but he ended up choking but we'll try
00:56:23
that again choke uh all right welcome back thank you so today's trivia segment uh has a theme that theme is mascots
00:56:38
okay so first trivia question for the week Netscape Communications maker of the Netscape browser once used a giant green dinosaur as their mascot
00:56:51
what was his name I just learned that Netscape had a giant green dinosaur yeah exactly why Netscape the browser had a it's funny I can't remember the Netscape
00:57:03
logo I I just Auto think of that's Internet Explorer yeah the giant e which is not Netscape was Netscape a world it had like an Earth on it most of them
00:57:14
started off in some sort of globe like Firefox Safari the globe is it's probably can you look it up we're just
00:57:20
looking up the the logo image yeah sure judges Netscape logo it's just an N oh oh I do remember that yeah there's no dinosaur around here we
00:57:32
couldn't even remember that let me let me send you some pictures of the the Netscape of the dinosaur yeah unless
00:57:38
this is a pure guess I'm just gonna go with Barney if I can't think of anything else I mean I'll just
00:57:44
you're gonna write one if I'm thinking of a name a two-legged dinosaur and a four-legged dinosaur would have different names yes I'm about
00:57:51
to send you the most 90s pictures of dinosaurs you could ever imagine so uh he's got a leather jacket and sunglasses looks like you would be airbrushed on a white T-shirt and sold
00:58:02
at the Wildwood Boardwalk a hundred percent this is a that's exactly what this is
00:58:08
which means his name is is pretty 90s all right I have my guess is that the same dinosaur oh yeah oh that's a very different looking dinosaur
00:58:22
all right well my answer is probably wrong all right you want to go first yeah I'm just gonna flip I mean we both
00:58:28
just flip it right Dino Jack I think it's Jack okay do you want the answer now or do you have both answers the name of netscapes
00:58:41
green dinosaur was Mozilla what no and Mozilla is a shortened form of Mosaic Killa wait and then does it does this Connect
00:58:54
into Firefox it does Connect into Firefox um because I can't remember the order but I'm pretty sure Netscape became Firefox at some point or there might
00:59:05
have been another browser in there in the middle but this all started when David and I were going down an even more
00:59:10
ridiculous internet mascot rabbit hole because apparently the animal in the Firefox icon is not a fox oh I did it's a Firefox it is a Firefox which is the
00:59:23
direct English translation for the Chinese word for red panda and Mozilla is very adamant that the
00:59:30
animal in the Firefox logo is not a fox it's a red panda but they could see how that would be confusing not only is it
00:59:37
confusing but there's all these people who make these things where they study the anatomy of a red panda and the
00:59:42
anatomy of a fox and using the angle of the ears and the dude it looks more like a fox it's definitely a fox called yeah
00:59:49
and it has a little white part on its now but if in like press releases they're very clear they're like it is
00:59:54
not a fox before this next mascot we've already learned about this the Netscape dinosaur the red panda Firefox remember we
01:00:06
learned about the Gateway cow not that long ago it has a plushie yeah and now we're about to go into another one okay
01:00:12
so far all real animals weird dinosaurs are real quick uh quick fun fact Netscape released the source code for
01:00:19
its browser and created the Mozilla organization huh there you go it's a very wholesome story for the beginning of Mozilla Firefox next mascot yeah it's wholesome except
01:00:31
that the dinosaur's name is like a mosaic disc it's literally the Mosaic killer that I didn't think too hard
01:00:37
about oh yeah I'm still I like it still I like it okay so score is still Andrew ate
01:00:45
Marquez seven by the way points so nice Twitter's famous bird actually has a name what is it I don't know why I'm thinking this don't
01:00:58
overthink it that's my hint I almost wrote Jack again for Jack Dorsey um Twitter's famous bird daughter famous bird
01:01:09
I want to guess what you wrote yeah yeah did you write twit or something no okay
01:01:16
ah God I literally can't think of another name for a bird it's a blue bird I'm picturing it in my head it's got the feather did it used to be green
01:01:29
no what I don't know why I thought like Aqua no it was always blue I think there were some like apps that you could
01:01:34
change it to green back in the day but with Twitter blue you could change it to Green all right I have an answer that was just my Twitter blue sponsor to
01:01:40
ready ready three two one flip tweep and Jake J is a great guess because it's blue or blue jay blue jay yeah what is tweet from I don't know it sounds like a
01:01:54
bird name kind of I keep thinking of Shawna malway tweep from Parks and Rec or that sounds like a bird's name we're
01:02:00
definitely is it just tweet no okay good I would be really bad if it was just tweet it's Larry
01:02:07
what do you mean don't think too hard wait wait that doesn't make any sense no way that's connected that's the name of the bird okay let me explain this is I'm not saying they named it after light
01:02:19
bird I'm just saying well they had they had to have named after that you can assume yeah
01:02:25
that's that seems like an unofficial type thing that's what okay all right Larry Bird
01:02:31
just does Larry Bird have Twitter stock because because if he's not the NBA logo but he
01:02:37
is the name of the Twitter logo he deserves according to a tweet by Twitter co-founder biz Stone yeah it is called
01:02:45
Larry the bird as a tribute to NBA icon he better have a stock Larry I'm gonna get you some Twitter stock before this goes private or whatever's happening uh
01:02:56
I'm very confident well who knows what's happening zero points there zero points not embarrassed at all but we learned
01:03:02
something today we learned something today maybe the mascots were the friends we made along the way exactly exactly I
01:03:08
like that that's a good place to end it uh thanks for listening thanks for watching we'll catch you very soon will
01:03:15
it be techtober by the time we talk these people again you can't say Thursday Friday yeah it'll be techtober so thanks for sticking with us this month
01:03:22
and we'll catch you very soon in the next one peace waveform is produced by Adam Molina and Ellis Robin we are partnering with the VOX media podcast Network and our intro music was created by vayne sill I almost
01:03:37
said Ellis Road he [Music] foreign [Music]