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foreign [Music]
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welcome back to another episode of the waveform podcast where your hosts I'm Marquez and I'm Andrew and in this
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week's episode we go remote and I speak with a guest so we're gonna jump into
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that but basically and we'll get to the trivia at the very end since I didn't do trivia in the middle of it but it was an interview uh a lot of people don't know
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about this but roughly once every year minus the pass to you for the pandemic but roughly once every year YouTube
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gathers together uh the sort of top 100 creators in the Americas North America
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and has a North American Creator Summit where they bring all these creators together in one hotel and put all the
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YouTube Executives in the same hotel and everybody fights I'm just kidding everybody has conversations and
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understands not just each other as people better but the the the economics
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of the way if new features work and the way new things that YouTube are happening and it's just an understanding that I don't think I've seen any other
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platform do it's really interesting they also have one for I think
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Asia and Africa and they have one for Europe and they have a couple other Creator Summits but I've been at a bunch of these creators Summits now and
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they're usually a really interesting uh a good time and I usually come home with notes and I think it's a really unique
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thing that YouTube does it's like an open discussion between how all the top creators are feeling while also having
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YouTube Executives there right to just all kind of have almost brainstorming or just like clarification aspects yeah and
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there's always like a thing like a theme about like what's happening on YouTube at that time is the Hot Topic like this
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time it was shorts like this was the creator Summit where everyone had questions about what YouTube is doing
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with shorts there was new feature announcements that we'll get into I remember the year that it was the adpocalypse where like they knew what
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all the questions were going to be about and they just had to answer them all and that's the the one time that you get
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some real answers out of YouTube Executives instead of PR answers and I find that super useful so anyway this
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time I actually got to on top of my time at the summit with everybody there I got to spend some time with Neil Mohan he's
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the chief product officer at YouTube and he was like yeah we should record our conversation and just like talk about
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YouTube and we'll put in the podcast and this can all go out with the announcements that YouTube recently made so we did that we just we're in this
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like extremely ugly Suite in the back of a hotel somewhere it looks terrible but
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it is a very useful conversation it's an interesting setup yeah it's we just we just made it happen at the last second
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audio is great though so audio listeners you're not going to notice it yeah you won't even know what's going on in the
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video version it's great um so we we did jump right into some of the interesting stuff like between the
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last time we spoke YouTube got rid of the dislike button he knew I was going to ask about that so I was very curious
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to hear what he said talked about things like the algorithm how it affects creators how creators sort of push back
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against the algorithm um I also brought up a very recent study that I read on the plane ride to the
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Creator Summit which was about how the algorithm sometimes doesn't change when you tell it you're not interested in something yeah so a bunch of interesting
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stuff just to hear what people who work for YouTube on these actual features actually say about this stuff so I think
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that's pretty much all the intro it needs roller tape all right Neil thanks for joining me on
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the podcast this week we appreciate the time thanks for having me Marquez huge been a long time fan so glad to be here
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oh thank you thank you very much that's great coming from Sony YouTube I like hearing that so speaking of YouTube
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what's your uh your official title and what would you how do you describe what you do to someone who asks maybe you
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have like a quick sentence or two elevator pitch type thing sure yeah so my official title is I'm the chief
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product officer at YouTube I've been at Google and YouTube a very long time at this point coming up on a decade and a
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half and um you know the way I describe my role is all the products that you as a
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Creator all of our viewers around the world all of our partners uh use on a daily basis that's ultimately my team's
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responsibility so I look after our products from the main app to YouTube kids to the music app to YouTube TV all
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the user design and the Aesthetics of the product and I also am responsible for what we call trust and safety which
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are our community guidelines and content policies that govern uh the content on our platform
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got it yeah YouTube is when you put it like that it's a lot of different products that all work together there's
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tons of things happening but you mentioned design and UI so I'll just jump right to it you guys got rid of the
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dislike button or the dislike counter about how long ago is that a few months
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ago a few months ago now I'm almost coming up on a on a year actually at this point okay I figured you were gonna
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ask me you got it you invited me here you know what I'm going to get into how's that gone uh and what sort of
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processes go into making a decision like that and and do you think it went the way you expected yeah I'll so on on the
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on the first part of your question and I know you you um uh of course had had you had a very
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strong point of view on it and um of the thesis as as you rightly
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pointed out in in all of your comments was um a well-being thesis for our creators
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that was the fundamental reason it was about um everything from dislike brigades to you know kind of that sort of that sort
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of count Olympics likes dislikes that sort of thing and uh it was not a trivial decision and I'll get into kind
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of the decision-making process in a second because I think that was like a canonical example of sometimes how some
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of these hard decisions are made but in terms of how it's going um I think that at the highest level
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it's going um the way that we expected it to which is we feel
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um or at least I feel that it was the right decision based on the data that we're seeing and so we looked at
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um a couple of things we looked at one from the Creator standpoint which was this notion of
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um you know just like brigades and things like that and that has been that is down so when we look at sort of the
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same period year on year so I think we looked at um most recently I think the last month so
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kind of August September of 2022 versus August September of 2021 it is down now
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of course that's not a controlled experiment but it is something that we looked at year on Year and that was
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something that was kind of the Creator facing uh metric that I was interested in looking at yeah the second thing
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though which I think you you alluded to in your video which um I think was was
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was something that um I wanted to track because it was a good point which is how
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is that um signal used like the the glance at sort of uh point that you were
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making around ratios Etc and we have seen um again year on year sort of roughly
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the same time period user satisfaction with the videos and we measure this in a number of different ways not just
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behaviorally but as you know you've seen the the surveys that show up um in the feed sometimes asking about specific
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videos that number has gone up year on year now again that's not a control number and there's lots of factors that
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can go into whether that number goes up or not one of them being just we're getting better at recommending content
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or search ranking and those types A lot um yeah but we have an idea of sort of roughly how it goes up and those things
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those changes to ranking and recommendation uh tweaks those are controlled experiments and so we are
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able to understand sort of what those add up to and I think that our feeling is that looking at a number of these
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signals it hasn't it at the very least hasn't had the impact that people were worried about in terms of people not
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being able to find the right videos and searches and things like that
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um and so those are just I'm just giving you sort of ballpark of some of the metrics we're looking at we'll continue to monitor that to see if that continues
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but that's sort of roughly how it's going on your second question
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um what I would say there is that I think it's a good example of the types of decisions that we make and that
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ultimately come to me I always say that you know if a decision is coming to me
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to make in a product review or what have you oftentimes it's a choice between two
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bad options or two not perfect options otherwise the decision would be made at you know multiple parts of our
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organization and this was a was an example of a very difficult decision because it involved a lot of the
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trade-offs that you made and so the teams put together proposals when we were getting this feedback from creators
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and and the like we looked at a number of different options things that we could do
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um you know and ultimately we made the hard call that when push comes to shove
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one of the things that we will air on the side of is the well-being of our creators and that is you know ultimately
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a decision that was made in you know product review with not just me but our
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product managers you know our leaders from other functions across across across YouTube
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um once we once we got some of the data some of the feedback and then we also at that point committed that we would
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follow this over time as well right yeah I mean it's I mean from my perspective it seems like it's something that's sort
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of averaging out it's evening out the behaviors are now it looks normal again every time there's a UI change on
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YouTube it takes a minute before it's not jarring anymore to me because I use YouTube so much um but a really interesting point that
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you made and I think I've maybe heard some other Executives say something along the same lines which is like if a
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decision gets to me then it's probably a really hard decision because there's so many people who work on these things and
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if it's getting to the highest level without a resolution it's a big it's a big call for you
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um how do you know when something is big enough to get to that level because when I think of YouTube as a bunch of
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different products there's inevitably like little bugs or like little things that pop up here and
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there may be worth acting on maybe not worth putting time into how do you know when something is uh actually a big
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decision coming to you that you'll eventually have to make a choice on yeah it's a really good question and and I
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the way I um the way I think about my role
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um not just in terms of sort of helping make those decisions or tie breaking or what have you is setting up the mechan
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the mechanisms so that that process actually happens um smoothly and for me I think it comes
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down to kind of three things one is um uh uh is about the people so we need to
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build an organization that um is full of talented people obviously
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focused on our creators and viewers and looking to do the right thing if we don't have the right people building our
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products on a daily basis then then you know none of this matters right that's that's that's the the Bedrock of
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everything but then I think there's two other things one is uh um having a set of principles and so one
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of the ways that I like to to think about YouTube is we have a set of uh
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core principles whether whether it comes to our product decisions our policy decisions
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um things like you know uh you know YouTube is an open platform but we also have Community guidelines those are two
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principles that are in tension but they work together to also reinforce each other um you know creators come first in terms
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of how we think about the heart of YouTube and what it is and I I have found that having Crystal Clarity on
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those principles and repeating them over and over is sort of the lifeblood of a
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product organization because then product Managers generally are empowered
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to make decisions along the lines of those principles and that and you know there's thousands of decisions being made every day on behalf of viewers and
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creators so that way not everything bubbles up to me and then the final thing is besides people and and
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principles is just having sort of the right processes in place by which those
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things get escalated very quickly so that they don't Fester I think one of the things that is poison in an
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organization a product development organization is decisions festering because people feel like they need to
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bring a consensus decision to me as opposed to two competing viewpoints and so having the processes by which it is
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okay to escalate those uh and you know and escalate those quickly I think is
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very important makes a lot of sense I'm probably gonna have to use these tips in future organizations I'm a part of
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um but you know I think one of the things that's always struck me about YouTube is and you've said it already a
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couple times it's it's a very creative first Creator facing organization and
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especially with tech and other companies we've seen Twitter and Instagram and Tick Tock and all these others we're
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speaking at the Creator Summit right now which is uh something I don't see other companies doing for some reason I think
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it's a great idea and we're doing it in person and it's in person which is you know it's crazy we haven't it's been two
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or three years since the last one um but I also wonder and I've wanted to ask someone at YouTube this for a long
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time in this 2022 World of I guess it feels more visible than ever that people
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kind of Chase the algorithm in a way that rewards them
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but it also shifts their content in the way they run their businesses and I'm curious if you think about the
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decisions that you make at YouTube and how they affect what creators will then go try to do to keep up or to match it
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so there's algorithmic changes that happen all the time you know whether it's switching from views to watch time
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to whatever and inevitably you see not just optimizations from creators but
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like full-on like chasing the absolute maximum of it do you think about that at
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all with the way creators sort of push it to the extreme yeah I think that's a really great question and actually I
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think it gets at the heart of um uh how we think about our products you know we think I think about what
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YouTube is is like we're building we're really building a stage a stage for you
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as a Creator to do what you do best to show off your talents and it's got to be the world's best stage and then also you
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know with the best seating lighting Etc so that the viewers can enjoy it uh as well and so that's the analogy but to
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take your to to take your very specific point I think it's an important one because we believe and this goes back to
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the principles point I was making before that our job is to help our creators succeed over the long run to build
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careers on our platform and so what that means is that it's not about
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um you know kind of like uh whatever like uh you know Sugar Rush flavor of the moment kind of
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a thing whatever is happening in terms of the algorithm or some particular Trend or what have you obviously those
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are important lots of Trends obviously start on YouTube but it's about the long run and so like one example that that I
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like to use is um you know a Creator on our platform a Creator an artist or what have you can
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use um YouTube shorts to introduce Their audience to a new idea it might be a new
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song it might be something else and that's 15 seconds 30 seconds and that can bring in uh lots of interest but
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very quickly um the the fans might be interested in learning not just about that neat trick
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or that song but who that Creator is and that's about um you know long form content that might
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be about a live stream that might be about you know engaging with the Creator and comments or after stage or in posts
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or in stories and so because we have this sort of truly multi-format approach
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to our creators we we believe that we're offering kind of that full Suite to
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their fans to really get to know the Creator and it's about the Creator it's
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about their name who they are what they stand for as opposed to you know what's
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happening this week and that's like a really really important thing um that I think is really core to
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YouTube and every time I talk to creators that's the thing that I hear over and over I was just with some
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shorts creators yesterday and that's the thing that they kept telling me is like that's the essence of YouTube never let
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that go when it comes to your product decisions and so I just it's a long answer to your question but I wanted to
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kind of describe that because it is a core principle and it's in the name and it's I guess that's in the original
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intention that's YouTube exactly yeah on that note we're going to take a quick break for ads we'll be right back with
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Neil foreign
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um okay so there's a question I wanted to ask also there was a study actually I think I just saw Yesterday by Mozilla
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that the uh the no longer interested button or the dislike button don't have
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as much of an effect on future recommendations as probably expected
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and I wonder I imagine it's by Design everything on YouTube is in some way intentional but do you think users
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should have entirely control over these recommendations I'll give you a quote
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which is uh I think it's probably a Steve Jobs code but basically that users don't really know exactly what they want
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until you give it to them or show it to them and then they realize that's what I wanted the whole time uh there's a ton
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of people watching YouTube videos do they know what they want um you know the way so I believe
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um and I think you know my organization believes that uh that the viewers should
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be in control of what they are um how they're consuming YouTube and and that's down to the very basic levels right like
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if you don't want um YouTube to use your watch History or search history in any of the personalization you can turn that off
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like there are really really um fundamental controls in terms of how all of that works you described some of
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them in terms of feedback within the product themselves we use all of those signals I think you know we um the
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latest number I saw was something like we used like 80 billion signals a day in terms of what's being ranked in your
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home feed on your watch next Pages uh search rankings Etc and so
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um that's our bread and butter in terms of getting uh very very high quality about it uh and we do use signals like
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that what what we don't do and I'm not familiar with the details of of the study you're referring but I did hear
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about it um uh is um we do take those signals into account
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we don't um turn off entire topics because one of
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the things that we also get feedback on is you know make sure that users aren't
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being um inadvertently put into Echo Chambers or rabbit holes in a way that could
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happen and so uh while we honor the specific feedback in terms of the button
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um or what have you it might refer to the specific video as opposed to the whole topic uh and we use as I said a
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blend of signals to actually determine those recommendations and as you know Marquez probably better than anybody
00:21:09
we're always we're always tweaking them we're adjusting them because we're always
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getting feedback both direct from our users but also in terms of the data that we're seeing in terms of how the how the
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platform is being used yeah yeah my theory is that there are just so many signals that that little bit of input
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might not actually make as big of a change as people assume when there's so many other things going into the decision of what to recommend next uh
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but I'll send you the study and yeah I mean one thing one other thing that I'll add to that though is um back to again sort of kind of core
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Northstar principles we do look at things like um long-term user satisfaction like that
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is that's a core metric that we look at in terms of um uh how users are engaging with their
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platform are they satisfied in terms of what they're watching um is that something is that a trend
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that continues over the long term and we measure our launches by that uh
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longitudinally and so for me that's really the most important thing which is across our user base not only do they
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have you know kind of immediate controls over sort of how their personalization is working but long term is the
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recommendation algorithm doing what it was designed to do in the first place and so I think that's a really important
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point that sometimes gets lost in these details is like we do have means by
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which we are measuring the overall success of what we're trying to accomplish on behalf of our viewers also
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on the topic of like YouTube being a ton of different products uh this is a podcast we're gonna have a you know a
00:22:43
video version of our podcast up and you know YouTube when you think about it is one of the biggest podcast players
00:22:50
basically there's also YouTube music which is one of the biggest music services and every time I see those
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stats I always wonder why doesn't YouTube make like more tailor-made players for these specific types of
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media I always pictured a different looking podcast player you know how you listen to music you get the next song
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button but if you go to a podcast to get the 45 second fast forward button do you think about you know tailoring more
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specifically to different types of videos as far as products at all obviously there's a ton going on with stories and shorts and all that but what
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about like podcast players and things like that yeah I do and so I mean I think that YouTube is
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um uh a visual not just a visual platform but an audio visual platform you rightly point out music of course
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music is part of the long-term you know Heritage of YouTube in many ways uh but
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podcasts are a big uh you know and actually the way I I describe it to our teams is you know we we are a
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a very a very large podcast platform without us having done a lot frankly to
00:23:55
support podcast creators um as well as listeners of podcasts I'm a big podcast listener myself and uh so
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I what I'll say there is stay tuned because I do believe that um you know you gave me an example in terms
00:24:09
of controls like I think that entire experience in terms of everything from Corpus Discovery to
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um uh uh Corpus organization to consumption to kind of follow-on for on
00:24:23
the viewer side and then on the Creator side uh tools that they need uh that podcasters need right like their their
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longer forms of content so things like um monetization via mid-rolls and things
00:24:36
like that are more important in that context than they might be in others and so we're looking at both sides of that uh and
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um we already have I think a pretty strong foundation in terms of how to deal with audio content with the YouTube
00:24:49
music app so stay tuned for for more that we're doing on the podcast front yeah yeah it kind of it reminds me of
00:24:55
what I was talking about earlier where like creators are like melding into the
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YouTube format like I love podcasts and I listen to a lot of audio podcasts but when I wanted to make a video podcast I
00:25:06
had to think about it as a YouTube channel and so we run them as a YouTube channel and in the YouTube way but you
00:25:13
know like you said there can be more done so I'm interested in that we'll see um but let's get to the announcement
00:25:19
that that came out recently which I think a lot of people here are very interested in and excited about which is
00:25:24
YouTube shorts monetization will now graduate from a Creator fund which is a
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fixed amount to revenue sharing platform break that down for us obviously the decision was probably pretty easy this
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is a better way to do it but tell us how you arrived here and what exactly it is yeah um so this is a I think it's a
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pretty big deal I'm I'm super excited about it uh as you know we've had the
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YouTube Partner program which is our kind of Flagship monetization program for creators I think since 2007 now and
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it has you know eligibility criteria for it um it's a couple million creators that are part of that program yeah
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um of course that's held Us in good stead for for creators for long form creators and we wanted to take the best
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of that program and basically bring it to shorts and so in some sense you're right given the success that we've had
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with the Creator economy and you know I think the the the number was something like we've given out 50 billion dollars
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to our creators artists media companies over the last three years we want to build on that for shorts because shorts
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is like this really rapidly growing format that we're seeing amongst our creator community and so we're going to
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bring the ypp program to shorts there will be different eligibility criteria because
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shorts of course is a bit of a different format and that's going to be 10 million views over a 90-day period and then you
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know creators can apply they can be part of the uh can then therefore be part of ypp and once you're in ypp whether you
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come in through the short store way or you come in through the traditional doorway you're basically part of ypp and
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so both your long form content and shorts content can monetize okay cool um and so that's sort of the first thing
00:27:04
that I'll say the other thing by the way that we announced just as a quick aside was we're also going to be rolling out a
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new lower tier for fan funding creators so these are smaller creators
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um who may want to just may want to monetize their content through things like super chat super stickers super
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thanks Channel memberships uh and so that's something to stay tuned for in 2023 but back on your shorts piece
00:27:28
um the way you know obviously shorts ads work differently Schwartz is much more of a fee seeds consumption experience
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and so we will insert the advertising from our ad Partners in that feed from a
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viewer standpoint and we will essentially pull together the views in that feed we will pay out
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um uh things like music licensing costs and then from the Creator pool creators
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will earn 45 of Revenue and um and that's basically based on their
00:28:02
share of views in that pool over kind of a 30-day period okay I have a bunch of
00:28:07
granular questions inside of it so I think it's a great announcement and obviously puts the pressure on some
00:28:13
other short form platforms to sort of follow suit I think that's pretty clear but okay so first of all 10 million
00:28:20
views in 90 days seems like a lot right but I also fundamentally think that a
00:28:25
view on a short is is worth a different amount from A View on a long form video
00:28:32
so I think it's reflected in the 10 million views like if you asked a long form Creator to
00:28:37
get 10 million views in 90 days that would be a pretty big ask uh does YouTube kind of see it the same way I
00:28:43
imagine like a 100 to 1 Ratio or something like that yeah I don't have the exact sort of ratio or sort of the
00:28:49
breakdown there um but you know I think your analogy is right like it and that's the reason why
00:28:55
the criteria are different and so you know as you know on the on the kind of traditional uh long form side it's
00:29:02
um you know the the Thousand Subs by the way the Thousand Subs applies I forgot to mention that in the in the shorts
00:29:08
piece as well but the but the difference the main difference is the 4 000 hours over the course of of a year and so you
00:29:14
can see that that's based on kind of a time-based consumption as a as opposed to a view based consumption right a view
00:29:21
a single view you've seen people scroll shorts and tick tocks like you could watch for 0.3 seconds and scroll to the
00:29:27
next one I imagine just like long form content there's a way of determining what is a view and you don't just scroll
00:29:33
past them and all of them get a view uh uh I'm you're not gonna tell me what the exact criteria are but there is some
00:29:39
criteria right yeah yeah okay so you have to count views in a certain special way yeah and then you said 45 of the
00:29:46
Creator portion is that can you say that part again 45 yeah so
00:29:53
um there's uh there's um there's a pool of views basically over the course of a
00:29:58
month let's say and um uh and then it's all the ad Revenue
00:30:04
that's generated for that pool of views in a particular country uh there's a portion of that that will
00:30:10
go towards paying the music licensing costs and so just on that point as you know
00:30:16
um music is a really important part of short form video um it's a huge huge kind of component to
00:30:22
what our creators are looking for uh and so that covers that then there's
00:30:27
basically kind of what what we're what I'm what I'm calling this Creator pool and that Creator pool is going to be
00:30:32
shared 45 with creators got it okay so it's not it's not uh 45 of all of the
00:30:39
total revenue generated by the shorts but it's the total revenue generated by the shorts minus the amount to pay for
00:30:45
the licensing to be able to use music and then 45 of the remaining goes to the creators yeah and then the other thing
00:30:51
that I should say is that that um one of the things that we have done with this new uh shorts um focus
00:30:58
monetization program is make it so that that 45 percent is paid out regardless
00:31:03
of whether you use music or not because we really wanted to simplify the whole sort of complexity that was associated
00:31:10
with music acquisition and Licensing which of course is quite a complicated process and for a shorts Creator
00:31:17
especially somebody who's looking to do something for 15 30 seconds it can be pretty daunting especially for for a new
00:31:24
Creator and so we wanted to make it so that regardless of whether you're using music or not in your in your platform
00:31:31
the monetization out of that Creator pool is the same yeah and so that was
00:31:37
the other big sort of kind of innovation and there's a lot of shorts only creators here at the Creator Summit I
00:31:43
imagine do you imagine someone doing a lot of views and shorts will make the same as they were before or less or more
00:31:50
with this new model so that's a good question um I I am really excited about the
00:31:56
potential of shorts I do spend time obviously not just with our creator uh Community but also speaking with with
00:32:03
advertisers a lot of my career was focused on building Advertiser products and so
00:32:09
um uh and I see General excitement amongst our Advertiser community so I'm bullish I'm really bullish about uh the
00:32:16
way that YouTube is approaching shorts uh in terms of how that plays out in the long run in terms of monetization I
00:32:22
couldn't tell you today but I do think this shift away from this kind of
00:32:27
limited shorts fund that we had in place uh to this full-fledged ypp program is
00:32:35
an indicator of how bullish we are about the monetization potential of shorts but the other thing that I I should say uh
00:32:42
just to be very clear is um you know YouTube and our creators have grown up on long form like
00:32:48
YouTubers invented that like we call it long form it didn't it used to be the original
00:32:55
exactly and that is front and center and everything that we do so much of my
00:33:01
team's Innovation is focused on that live stream is another big format that we're focused on making sure that
00:33:06
YouTube Works incredibly well on living room devices is a really big uh component of our of our uh future as
00:33:14
well um shorts is as well but it's all of those other things and so that's why like I come I keep coming back to like
00:33:20
this notion of of truly multi-format it's up to our creators to do what works
00:33:25
best for their audience and we need to support all of those formats yeah I I think it's it's clearly something that's
00:33:31
going to evolve over time we see shorts like with this explosive growth and tons of people going oh I gotta get in on
00:33:37
this I got to try to see if I can make sure it's it's funny I used to make three four minute videos and not even to
00:33:43
chase any algorithm but I've slowly made longer and longer videos over the years a normal review video for me is like 13
00:33:52
14 minutes long yep would have been an insane video back in the day uh but now I'm like all right let's try to make
00:33:57
some shorts and everyone I make is like 58 and a half seconds 59 seconds because I'm trying to jam all the information to
00:34:04
this short form thing but you know that's going to evolve over time too I'm sure I'll get better at it
00:34:09
um I guess lastly what sort of uh what stuff are you excited about for the
00:34:14
future of YouTube this is just a broad nebulous question that you would be in a good position to answer so I'll just let
00:34:19
you paint whatever picture you want there's all kinds of tools products you could be working on tell me about it
00:34:25
yeah um I'm uh I'm super bullish I mean the thing that gets me up in the morning
00:34:31
just to be uh and has been sort of a theme of of my career is it really is
00:34:38
supporting the Creator economy I mean I believe that it's because of YouTube uh
00:34:43
that your creativity and talents can get to people uh like you know like my 14
00:34:49
year old son like someone like him exactly like him on the other side of the world and
00:34:55
um that like is inspiring to me and so everything that goes into that from building audiences so support for
00:35:02
multi-track audio right so that your content is accessible to anyone all over the world right
00:35:08
um uh things like the monetization features that we rolled out yesterday this new Creator music uh Marketplace
00:35:15
that we talked about so that creators can continue to grow that way that is super exciting to me I alluded to this
00:35:22
earlier but you know there's so much conversation around things like shorts and as you know my team is very very
00:35:29
focused on it but I'm also focused on things like connected TV and the living room experience and how that continues
00:35:34
to grow and how we continue to innovate uh in terms of sort of longer form content there
00:35:41
shopping is another area you know peop lots and lots of our viewers tell us
00:35:47
this through their behavior through their feedback that they come to YouTube to connect with their favorite creators
00:35:52
but you know just like you go to the mall to hang out with friends and be entertained have lunch and you might
00:36:00
purchase a hairbrush or a pair of jeans Etc that's all part of that experience we want to enable those types of um uh
00:36:07
those types of use cases as well and then the last thing I'll say just kind of because it's an important part of of
00:36:14
uh my responsibility is also continuing the Bedrock of all this is continuing to
00:36:20
live up to our responsibility as a global platform we didn't talk a lot about that today but we have a lot of
00:36:26
focus on making sure that um uh that YouTube is a place that is not uh
00:36:31
doesn't is that has no home for hate or harassment or things like that and so that's the Bedrock of everything we do
00:36:38
and so those are some ideas of what I'm super excited about both for our creators as well as
00:36:44
um for for our viewers and all of our fans and I think kind of the next you know five years are going to be even
00:36:50
more exciting fighting than the last for sure I like the analogies man YouTube's a YouTube is a mall to hang out with
00:36:55
your friends and then maybe buy some stuff or YouTube's a stage with the best audience and the best Stage Neil thank
00:37:01
you for the time I appreciate it and hopefully we'll do this again sometime awesome looking forward to it all right
00:37:06
well that was a lot a lot to unpack we are going to unpack it a little bit right after the break see you in a
00:37:12
second [Music]
00:37:24
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00:38:15
so a little bit to unpack a little bit of reactions you've heard now the conversation I had with Neil you heard
00:38:20
his answers you heard some of his answers and his non-answers I am coming away feeling like okay I mean the
00:38:25
Creator Summit was obviously a whole experience and I was there for a few days and I talked to a lot of people and
00:38:30
like I have all my little notes but at the end of the day I do still feel like YouTube is the place to be for a creator
00:38:39
of videos online like that answers are not changing but there's a lot of interesting shifting in the landscape
00:38:44
maybe we can break down a little bit I mean the biggest thing obviously is the YouTube Partner program with shorts sure
00:38:51
I think yeah I mean like that's just the thing that kind of has grasped all the headlines um it's awesome we've talked about
00:38:57
Creator funds from Tick Tock and from previous YouTube fire under Tick Tock
00:39:02
yeah I think so that's a question I have like right off the bat yeah is when I first read this
00:39:09
I I was really pumped for people who were able to make money but I can't decide if I think is this a move that
00:39:15
will whether it's what they want to happen or not but the end result here are we going to see tick Tuckers move to
00:39:21
YouTube making shorts or are we just seeing now a better platform for already
00:39:27
I don't even want to say established YouTubers but people who focus on YouTube getting a better tool that
00:39:33
they'll utilize way more now so it's definitely both and I think it was funny in that room like I've been to all the
00:39:40
Creator Summits and look I watch a lot of YouTube so typically when I get to the Creator Summit I'm surrounded by
00:39:46
faces I've seen online for a long time this is the first Creator Summit where I was like I don't recognize most of you a
00:39:52
lot of people a lot of older I mean still a lot of the people who I've recognized were there but then there was a bunch of new faces and talking to a
00:40:00
lot of them they were shorts creators there are people who had come to YouTube whether it was from Tick Tock or they
00:40:05
just arrived on YouTube and they just made shorts I talked to a channel called Dental digest have you have you heard of
00:40:11
dental diet I've heard you talk about them before uh he just pulled up his channel and was showing me some of the stuff he was doing he had a a bunch of
00:40:18
uh toothbrush shorts 200 150 million views per short just talking about
00:40:24
toothbrushes that's like that's what was happening around me at the Creator Summit wow so to answer your question yes this is aimed at tick tockers
00:40:34
who will see the opportunity to make money doing what they're already doing and start putting stuff on YouTube
00:40:40
that's for sure an intended consequence of what they're doing but I think it's
00:40:45
also just as likely that you're going to see all of the algorithmic push and all of the focus on shorts
00:40:51
folk it start to to make other long-form creators try shorts that's exactly what I'm starting to do so I think it's both
00:40:57
are going to be happening yeah I like I see it as clearly a goal to grab people from Tick Tock yeah I wonder if the like
00:41:05
the audience is quite there yet to be like if you're coming from Tick Tock
00:41:10
having say you're one of the demilio sisters and you're you're getting what 10 or 20 million views sure for like any
00:41:17
Tick Tock that you post and you just have a wild audience like there are just so many more people on Tick Tock for that content right now where YouTube is
00:41:24
always like Jack of all trades and insanely good at all of it and Tick Tock
00:41:29
is so specifically focused on short form content there so is that audience quite there yet is it
00:41:35
worth I think most people will say yes is it worth getting paid that extra money on there when maybe you're not getting the
00:41:42
same viewership you are as Tick Tock how people will try to utilize both platforms cross-posting or if that's
00:41:48
allowed I it'll be interesting that's a whole okay a lot to unpack there so one the demilia sisters do have a YouTube
00:41:54
channel they've been posting long form stuff to very mixed success and I think
00:41:59
this new ad Revenue sharing program which is rolling out soon will encourage them to do more short form stuff that
00:42:06
they're used to two is the audience there yes uh YouTube shares some numbers with us and I'm not going to remember
00:42:12
the exact numbers but it was some absurd billions and billions of total shorts
00:42:17
views already that they've started serving and they can choose to flip switches to just show more people more
00:42:24
shorts so I think that won't be a problem as far as like should we make shorts are there enough
00:42:30
eyeballs there I think so okay and then what was the last part you said uh
00:42:35
across across yeah cross posting that's a little more complicated
00:42:41
um I think basically none of the platforms like cross posting so if you are Instagram you are less likely to
00:42:48
want people to see shorts with a tick tock logo in it and I think they've already admitted that they're less
00:42:53
likely to push a video that has that branding in it but also when you make a video with tick tock's tools you get
00:43:00
that Watermark no matter what so if you make that video with Instagram's tools I believe you also get a reels Watermark
00:43:06
and I think YouTube's the only one that doesn't have as strong of a stance but is very likely to adopt one so but this
00:43:13
almost while this isn't a watermark I could see it as a way to so my initial Theory would be YouTube
00:43:21
wants you to get the views on your short therefore cross uh posting this on other
00:43:27
things is less views you will get on the short which is the thing that's making you money so why would you want to also
00:43:33
post that on Tick Tock right rather for like discoverability and stuff like that because I as many views as there are on
00:43:39
shorts I would argue there's probably still way more views on Tick Tock we've
00:43:44
true I've kind of seen it ourselves yes but like if you're posting the same content on both platforms one is making
00:43:51
you far more money than the others so exactly you're probably going to want the exclusivity on that one yeah or
00:43:56
you'll at least never not put it on YouTube true I think that's the goal it's like I was I was gonna make the
00:44:02
tick tock anyway I might as well put it on YouTube because it might get some clicks it might make some money why
00:44:09
would I not want to invest a little bit of time there and potentially have that reward
00:44:15
um but yeah it's also just like yes all of tick tock is bigger than YouTube
00:44:21
shorts but all of YouTube is still bigger than all of tick tock and I think as shorts grows the real question is is
00:44:29
that going to eat into long form or is that an entirely separate pie and I think most people are realizing now it's
00:44:36
a separate pie you don't you don't you don't take views away from your long
00:44:41
form videos if you do shorts which is nice to see um I don't know that there's people who
00:44:47
watch it's kind of weird I get sucked into the carousels of all the apps now like reels I've scrolled through and then YouTube shorts and then Tick Tock
00:44:54
it's absurd how many videos You'll see doing just that scrolling but yeah I think it's two different pies it's you
00:45:00
bring up an interesting conversation of how it doesn't really eat into long form because I was just talking with Adam and Ellis about this previously we've talked
00:45:07
about doing shorts on all of our different platforms and I was kind of thinking of it as like MKBHD you know 10
00:45:15
to 20 minute videos is our bread and butter we then created the podcast for a
00:45:21
more Niche part of that audience that we already have and made it longer because we wanted to talk about things in longer
00:45:27
form and get more nitty-gritty now we're going to create shorts which is almost the opposite we're going to condense the
00:45:33
video form and expands the audience that we're trying to reach Yeah by talking
00:45:38
about potentially more Broad and general things in a much much shorter time which
00:45:44
is a whole nother Beast display it's very hard to brainstorm it is very hard I think it's also there's it's so young
00:45:50
that there isn't really like a formula yet like oh I think we know what like a
00:45:55
basic short looks like which is either like someone lip syncing to an audio Trend or someone dancing there's like or
00:46:02
or like a joke there's like four or five general shorts but what is a tech short look like I don't think that's a really
00:46:09
well defined thing yet so I think that opportunity to like carve out a new vision of what you want that to be still
00:46:16
exists which is really interesting to me um I've tried some things we've tried like a little bit an unboxing makes
00:46:22
sense that's a short thing but it could be explainers in shorts it could be some
00:46:27
more well-produced animated looks and shorts like there's a bunch of a bunch of stuff we could try and we just it'll
00:46:32
just be a new audience that finds it and the potential really is for people who find the text short to then go on and
00:46:40
find the long form videos too that's the bet that we're hoping pays off I really like the idea of being able to update
00:46:48
videos throughout the year sort of through a short like if we do an iPhone review in in September interesting but
00:46:54
or yeah in September and then in June a big update comes out or people are wondering if they should get that phone
00:47:01
or whatever like you can do a one minute update without having to do like a whole six months later software updates six
00:47:07
months later one year later and yeah that could be a thing that's interesting I I do like it's always funny like
00:47:13
thinking about tech being such a subset like we talk to people like Jimmy Mr Beast and like there's all these
00:47:19
theories on like the algorithm and retention and things to maximize your ship and if you follow this formula the
00:47:26
ceiling is 300 million views on a video I've never seen a tech short or any Tech
00:47:31
video for that matter ever get past about 80 million views so it's just like
00:47:36
a smaller ceiling so do you optimize for the tech ceiling or the general ceiling
00:47:43
like do you want this to be shared among tech people a lot or among everybody so
00:47:48
maybe it's less of a tech video you know what I mean that's a question I think we'll be trying to figure out for the next four to six months yeah exactly and
00:47:55
I'm excited to try I'm excited to see what sticks um and and I mean what happens really
00:48:00
what what people like and what people don't like and how it can pretty much just add on to the channel and provide
00:48:07
more stuff that's the way I want to think about it adding on yeah um so I kind of have like after this
00:48:12
whole interview and after this shorts announcement I had kind of a small Revelation about the video platforms on
00:48:22
the internet in general and this is kind of to hear that okay I I want to see what you think of this sure and it's
00:48:28
something that I've brought up multiple times on the podcast I've talked about twitch and live streaming and how there
00:48:36
are multiple times where I said I don't know how YouTube isn't like going for the throat of twitch because twitch is known to make some of the worst
00:48:42
decisions it's almost like they don't have to I they're just like twitch is constantly
00:48:48
on the Forefront of streaming they're the main platform for live streaming and it baffles me how sometimes because I
00:48:54
think in general a lot of the stuff about their players terrible I think a lot of the decisions they make are
00:49:00
terrible there's a lot of people who absolutely hate the staff there and hate how they deal with things so I always wonder how YouTube this giant company
00:49:07
run by Google hasn't just like taken them out yet because they have the
00:49:13
capabilities there after watching this I've kind of decided that I think
00:49:19
YouTube is just playing the long game on everything oh yeah and I've realized it for a couple reasons so really quick to
00:49:27
start this if you haven't been paying any attention to Twitch in the last two weeks there's been a boatload of drama
00:49:33
and it's really stable over there yes a lot of stuff is going it's basically
00:49:38
completely on fire if you watch Billy D um Ludwig has a channel called mogulmail where he's talks about everything Ludwig
00:49:45
I think you said you met him at the we thought yeah we chatted up yeah yeah he is somebody who's streamed on Twitch and
00:49:50
is on YouTube now so he knows the ins and outs of both the good and bad of both and he talks about it very publicly
00:49:56
um highly suggest going and watching some of his videos to know what's happening on Twitch but there's a ton a ton of controversies
00:50:03
have been happening then they throw out this rare announcement that's considered like probably the most widely accepted
00:50:10
and well-liked thing twitch has ever done which is Ban some gambling on the
00:50:16
platform okay the day after is YouTube makes this announcements about YouTube shorts which doesn't seem to connect too
00:50:22
much but then twitch also makes an announcement announcement about cutting uh partner Revenue sharing from 70 70 30
00:50:32
to 50 50. and just like wow I don't know why one they're not uh for their higher
00:50:38
well it's turning into everyone but the only people who are at 70 30 were the like higher higher partner streamers so
00:50:44
it's like top X percent of streamers okay but those people are all having their income from twitch cut by 20 from
00:50:51
at least that part of twitch I know there's a lot of math people out here are gonna say it's not actually 20 when you take that section yes whatever
00:50:58
um so anyways that's just like this huge blow at the same time YouTube's
00:51:05
announcing this like giant win on partnership program for sure it's like a whole new Avenue that they're doing a
00:51:10
great way to for people to get paid now at the same time in like as YouTube is
00:51:18
in the media for doing well there twitch is also in the media for doing poorly there and then on top of all that all
00:51:24
the new people who have switched to YouTube who are live streaming are talking about how great streaming on
00:51:29
YouTube is riding the wave of the good YouTube press so it just feels like
00:51:35
everything's kind of falling around twitch and the more I look at it the more I think YouTube's not going to kill
00:51:41
Tick Tock right now YouTube's not going to kill twitch right now but YouTube is slowly putting the pressure on them yeah
00:51:47
and in five to ten years they realize that they're going to be the platform that the main content of everyone's on
00:51:54
and now they're grasping all the links from all the different ways you can create and turning into one giant
00:51:59
content ecosystem yeah it's the walled content Garden this kind of reminds me of that question that we had before
00:52:05
about new social media platforms are they a platform or a feature
00:52:11
and to YouTube they're all features right what is Tick Tock it is just a feature built into YouTube we've got
00:52:17
shorts it's just a part of the online video library they clearly view everything as a feature so what is
00:52:23
Twitch it's just a live streaming feature that we've also built in and we've got like the super thanks button
00:52:28
and the super chats and all this stuff built in so uh if you're YouTube you're not really too threatened by those that
00:52:36
do a subset of what you do because you can always absorb that as a new feature it might take a couple years there might
00:52:42
be a little spike in like people making a ton more money on Twitch but in the long run you know if you have this
00:52:49
ability to connect all these different things together if one Creator can do live streams videos and shorts there's
00:52:57
only one place to do that it's got to be YouTube right I mean it's pretty much if you look at a lot of these Mega stores
00:53:03
like Target and Walmart you know maybe they are not as good as a mom and pop shop here or a grocery store
00:53:09
there but when you start having everything in the same store you start rather going to that one store because it makes things far far easier so I
00:53:16
would like to go deeper into this analogy if you were selling a product where would you rather it be sold you
00:53:23
could sell way higher percentages in a smaller Mom and Pop Shop you could be
00:53:29
like 90 of the sales of the Mom and Pop Shop which would be sick but if you sell in Target you're going
00:53:35
to get way more eyeballs and then you can sell other products and Target will have those other products too and then you'll have way more sales do you know
00:53:41
why that analogy doesn't work why because YouTube pays better also and is the mega store
00:53:47
oh yeah well so I mean yeah it makes it even better yeah yeah it's YouTube
00:53:53
YouTube has the longevity I think I one of the earliest questions I got asked I did a little panel of the Creator Summit
00:53:59
because I have creators talk to creators too uh which is like why did you pick YouTube and it's like I like making videos
00:54:06
that's the Baseline and the question of like where would I go to watch a video
00:54:11
is YouTube and that answer has been pretty stable for a while like we've had some others
00:54:17
pop up once in a while like I I go to tick tock for a video now and then I'll go to Instagram for a video now and then
00:54:23
but like if I'm going to seek out a video I mean Google is a pretty big search
00:54:28
engine they're dumping people on YouTube YouTube is the second biggest search engine you're gonna find videos that way I just think that answer is not changing
00:54:35
anytime soon so to kind of wrap all this back into the beginning of this conversation remember how you said
00:54:41
there's a lot of faces that you didn't under you didn't recognize in your face I feel like asking that question also
00:54:48
proves that there's a lot of new faces there because why do you pick YouTube because it was 12 years ago and that was
00:54:53
kind of the only thing to pick yeah now there's way more options out there Vimeo it wasn't no it was like if you wanted
00:55:00
the live stream TV or yeah yeah yeah but now it's like there is also that the one
00:55:06
downside which is like sometimes YouTube leans into a new feature and then it kind of doesn't work out and they just
00:55:12
sort of silently ask it like stories remember YouTube had stories it still had I think it still is a thing you
00:55:17
mentioned that in the interview with Neil yeah and uh I was like yeah he didn't respond to stories yeah it's like
00:55:24
we know what happened there and I think their commitment to shorts seems much
00:55:30
more deeply invested than it was other stories way better than stories so I'm I'm thinking that's that's a good thing
00:55:36
all right well I'm glad we got to have a conversation with him uh and I think we'll keep an eye on shorts moving
00:55:42
forward we're gonna try some shorts he heard it here first and the podcast Channel and the studio Channel and
00:55:47
everything just trying some stuff if you guys have ideas or suggestions about stuff that works best in short form
00:55:53
that's the conversation we're having in the studio and that's the type of comments we want to read so let us know what kind of stuff you think would work
00:55:59
well in short vertical form I think the only thing we have left to
00:56:04
do now is trivia yeah yeah let's do it [Music]
00:56:11
I have the matte black one nice
00:56:17
nailed it so Ella's just tried to talk but he ended up choking but we'll try
00:56:23
that again choke uh all right welcome back thank you so today's trivia
00:56:31
segment uh has a theme that theme is mascots
00:56:38
okay so first trivia question for the week Netscape Communications maker of the
00:56:45
Netscape browser once used a giant green dinosaur as their mascot
00:56:51
what was his name I just learned that Netscape had a giant green dinosaur yeah
00:56:56
exactly why Netscape the browser had a it's funny I can't remember the Netscape
00:57:03
logo I I just Auto think of that's Internet Explorer yeah the giant e which
00:57:09
is not Netscape was Netscape a world it had like an Earth on it most of them
00:57:14
started off in some sort of globe like Firefox Safari the globe is it's probably can you look it up we're just
00:57:20
looking up the the logo image yeah sure judges Netscape logo
00:57:26
it's just an N oh oh I do remember that yeah there's no dinosaur around here we
00:57:32
couldn't even remember that let me let me send you some pictures of the the Netscape of the dinosaur yeah unless
00:57:38
this is a pure guess I'm just gonna go with Barney if I can't think of anything else I mean I'll just
00:57:44
you're gonna write one if I'm thinking of a name a two-legged dinosaur and a four-legged dinosaur would have different names yes I'm about
00:57:51
to send you the most 90s pictures of dinosaurs you could ever imagine
00:57:56
so uh he's got a leather jacket and sunglasses looks like you would be airbrushed on a white T-shirt and sold
00:58:02
at the Wildwood Boardwalk a hundred percent this is a that's exactly what this is
00:58:08
which means his name is is pretty 90s all right I have my guess is
00:58:16
that the same dinosaur oh yeah oh that's a very different looking dinosaur
00:58:22
all right well my answer is probably wrong all right you want to go first yeah I'm just gonna flip I mean we both
00:58:28
just flip it right Dino Jack I think it's Jack
00:58:34
okay do you want the answer now or do you have both answers the name of netscapes
00:58:41
green dinosaur was Mozilla what no and
00:58:47
Mozilla is a shortened form of Mosaic Killa wait and then does it does this Connect
00:58:54
into Firefox it does Connect into Firefox um because I can't remember the order
00:58:59
but I'm pretty sure Netscape became Firefox at some point or there might
00:59:05
have been another browser in there in the middle but this all started when David and I were going down an even more
00:59:10
ridiculous internet mascot rabbit hole because apparently the animal in the
00:59:16
Firefox icon is not a fox oh I did it's a Firefox it is a Firefox which is the
00:59:23
direct English translation for the Chinese word for red panda and Mozilla is very adamant that the
00:59:30
animal in the Firefox logo is not a fox it's a red panda but they could see how that would be confusing not only is it
00:59:37
confusing but there's all these people who make these things where they study the anatomy of a red panda and the
00:59:42
anatomy of a fox and using the angle of the ears and the dude it looks more like a fox it's definitely a fox called yeah
00:59:49
and it has a little white part on its now but if in like press releases they're very clear they're like it is
00:59:54
not a fox before this next mascot we've already
01:00:00
learned about this the Netscape dinosaur the red panda Firefox remember we
01:00:06
learned about the Gateway cow not that long ago it has a plushie yeah and now we're about to go into another one okay
01:00:12
so far all real animals weird dinosaurs are real quick uh quick fun fact Netscape released the source code for
01:00:19
its browser and created the Mozilla organization huh
01:00:24
there you go it's a very wholesome story for the beginning of Mozilla Firefox next mascot yeah it's wholesome except
01:00:31
that the dinosaur's name is like a mosaic disc it's literally the Mosaic killer that I didn't think too hard
01:00:37
about oh yeah I'm still I like it still I like it okay so score is still Andrew ate
01:00:45
Marquez seven by the way points so nice Twitter's famous bird actually has a
01:00:51
name what is it I don't know why I'm thinking this don't
01:00:58
overthink it that's my hint I almost wrote Jack again for Jack Dorsey
01:01:03
um Twitter's famous bird daughter famous bird
01:01:09
I want to guess what you wrote yeah yeah did you write twit or something no okay
01:01:16
ah God I literally can't think of another name for a bird
01:01:22
it's a blue bird I'm picturing it in my head it's got the feather did it used to be green
01:01:29
no what I don't know why I thought like Aqua no it was always blue I think there were some like apps that you could
01:01:34
change it to green back in the day but with Twitter blue you could change it to Green all right I have an answer that was just my Twitter blue sponsor to
01:01:40
ready ready three two one flip tweep and Jake J is a great guess because it's
01:01:48
blue or blue jay blue jay yeah what is tweet from I don't know it sounds like a
01:01:54
bird name kind of I keep thinking of Shawna malway tweep from Parks and Rec or that sounds like a bird's name we're
01:02:00
definitely is it just tweet no okay good I would be really bad if it was just tweet it's Larry
01:02:07
what do you mean don't think too hard wait wait that doesn't make any sense no
01:02:13
way that's connected that's the name of the bird okay let me explain this is I'm not saying they named it after light
01:02:19
bird I'm just saying well they had they had to have named after that you can assume yeah
01:02:25
that's that seems like an unofficial type thing that's what okay all right Larry Bird
01:02:31
just does Larry Bird have Twitter stock because because if he's not the NBA logo but he
01:02:37
is the name of the Twitter logo he deserves according to a tweet by Twitter co-founder biz Stone yeah it is called
01:02:45
Larry the bird as a tribute to NBA icon he better have a stock Larry I'm gonna
01:02:51
get you some Twitter stock before this goes private or whatever's happening uh
01:02:56
I'm very confident well who knows what's happening zero points there zero points not embarrassed at all but we learned
01:03:02
something today we learned something today maybe the mascots were the friends we made along the way exactly exactly I
01:03:08
like that that's a good place to end it uh thanks for listening thanks for watching we'll catch you very soon will
01:03:15
it be techtober by the time we talk these people again you can't say Thursday Friday yeah it'll be techtober so thanks for sticking with us this month
01:03:22
and we'll catch you very soon in the next one peace
01:03:29
waveform is produced by Adam Molina and Ellis Robin we are partnering with the VOX media podcast Network and our intro music was created by vayne sill I almost
01:03:37
said Ellis Road he [Music]
01:03:44
foreign [Music]
