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[Music] yeah what is up people of the internet welcome back to another episode of the
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waveform podcast we're your hosts I'm Marquez and I'm Andrew and this episode is a bit of a guest interview in fact
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it's the whole it's the whole interview it's pretty exciting we were able to get Hugo Bara to join us in the in the
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studio in the flesh if you haven't heard the name or if you don't know if you've heard the name you might remember if you
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go from work at Google or xiaomi or most recently this is why we had him on he had this huge super in-depth blog post about Vision Pro and like the state of
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VR and AR and obviously he has experience from Oculus and a bunch of of history in those companies but there
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were a lot of things in those posts that I'd never read before like unique thoughts about VR and AR which in a
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world where feels like everyone said everything about this stuff it was it was really interesting to see so we
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wanted to dig in on some of his hot takes yeah if you don't know that name you know probably 10 productss that he's
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worked on no like he's been in this space for so long and has a great ton of great insights and is really really
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knowledgeable just everything Tech yeah so it was really fun to have an like a true expert in the industry come on and
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and elaborate on some of his takes so I think we should just jump right into it let's roll
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it welcome Hugo Barra to waveform thank you guys thank you for having me to you we uh we've talked a little bit in the past about this but uh we've seen you on
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stage presenting with with Google with Android stuff we've seen the xiaomi stuff and you've had a long history with VR and we've talked a lot about Apple
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Vision Pro on this uh on this podcast but I feel like a lot of your thoughts are things that we hadn't even
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considered and a lot of takes from your blog post are angles about the history and the future of VR in general that we
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somehow haven't gotten to yet and I would love to talk about them with you I'm excited to be here ready to do it
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okay amazing well I feel like the first thing I want to jump into is like V Vision Pro as it exists today like it's
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a pretty good product you've owned one you've used one we've had our review unit our review came out what is your
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like 30 second summary you give to people who ask like oh oh if you Vision Pro right what do you what do you think
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of it to me the coolest thing about it is that it feels like a product that comes straight out of Science Fiction uh
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and I think David you talked about this previously you know it is I think easily the the most sophisticated uh piece of
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consumer technology sort of certainly that I've touched uh and likely of almost anything in the world today so
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putting on a Vision Pro feels like you're visiting the future right it it it has that taste of sci-fi that is just a beautiful way to create curiosity to
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create optimism around Tech and all that stuff so sci-fi it is a it is close to Magic for a lot of people I think who have never especially people who have never tried other headsets so that's
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something with a lot of reviews that I like like to look at is context if you're reviewing this headset have you
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tried other headsets and if so how many and how far back have you tried the headsets and we are also briefly talking
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about like the first Oculus when it came out yeah how long ago that thing came out and how basic it was but if you've
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used headsets since then this might not have the same magic appeal but it is fun
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to give people who have never tried a headset a look in the Vision Pro and just the look on their face can I throw just a completely random story Into The
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Mix when talking about the history VR MH so I've been a VR Enthusiast for my entire adult life and um for me it
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started off when I was a freshman in college my first internship was uh I was a a QA engineer at Walt Disney imaginary
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this was in the '90s uh in a project that was part of uh Disney Quest like the the indoor theme park thing that they had going on until a few years ago and this project was called The Aladdin
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Magic Carpet it was a virtual reality attraction and this was the craziest thing ever because of the equipment the
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technology that was available at the time so you'd like sort of sit on on a chair it was kind of like just holding your bum you put on a seat Bel mhm and
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then You' put on this headset which was this massive CRT display it protruded out like a foot and a half off your face we can we can pull a photo and show it yeah um and it was so heavy like we talk
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about 600 gram Etc it was in the kilograms that it needed steel cables hanging off the ceiling to hold it in place so your head you know wouldn't fall and each eye it was VGA resolution
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so it was actually not bad each eye was powered by a separate silicon graph Onyx
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workstation and it was incredible and they actually had what you might call the first motion controller that anyone
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ever came up with now this launched 25 years ago so to me the history of V certainly in entertainment kind of starts back then so wow boy have we come
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a long way we have I could probably pull video from that from my family archive cuz I've gone to that ride so many times
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really I've done you remember what it was like I remember it was it mind-blowing at I feel like it would be
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mind-blowing to have no yeah as like a six-year-old it was in insane yeah I was going to say Adam how old wait did you
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exist that I'm older than I look that is really funny yeah I mean so we even if you only go back to what On's your did you use the first Quest I mean the first Oculus did stuff so that's a decade yeah
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it yeah I mean I was using it as a freshman in college in 2013 so yeah so now now we're looking at
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like okay we've seen this Arc of improvement clearly we've figured out what parts of a VR headset that we want
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to improve the most to deliver the best experience to people lots of resolution lots of high quality sensors and tracking uh and we've arrived in 2024
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where we have things like Quest 3 Quest Pro those are the most common ones I'm going to reference and now Apple Vision
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Pro I think one of the most interesting things is that while you may or may not consider Vision Pro the best VR headset you can definitely argue that it's the
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most important VR headset especially just because of the way people treat what Apple does yeah can you expand a little bit on why it's so important not just for Apple but for the entire
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industry as a whole yeah totally so first of all I I think that the Vision Pro is one of two seminal events for the for the VR industry the other one is
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probably the founding of oculus and obviously the subsequent acquisition that gave them so much investment
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Firepower um but I I I really I put Vision Pro right up there for a very simple reason which is like if Apple
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cares then everybody cares right like if a brand that has earned the respect and reputation of consumers all around the
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world actually cares about this thing enough to put a product in the world with their perspective then everybody
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cares yeah um you know Palmer lucky started Oculus um used to say that like VR has to be something that everybody wants before it can become something that everybody can buy or can afford
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which is why by the way in that long assay that I wrote I don't even talk about price because I think it's not
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really the point yeah of a product at at this stage so so to me it it is the fact
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that apple is you know has a perspective and they're applying the Apple attention to detail in a way that no one else
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frankly has a patience to do because it takes years to arrive at all of those little things that they've done done um
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and and I think that's that's really important there's one thing about the Vision Pro which I think is probably the
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most important thing from a product perspective which is how they introduced gaze and pinch to me that is the you
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know VR equivalent of the introduction of multi-touch uh which is without any doubt right capacitive multi touch is the defining characteristic of the current generation of smartphones and it was introduced in the first iPhone and
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defined that more than anything El if you go back and look at those videos of the first iPhone when he pinches to zoom
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in the picture and the whole crowd goes oh whoa like that moment that intuitive moment that magical understanding
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everyone had that that click that is interesting so gays you think is one of them I think yeah g it's the combination
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yeah you know it's looking at a thing feedback in a way yeah exactly the fact that you're giving yourself haptic
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feedback by touching your other finger yeah people laugh when I said that but that's true like when you're actually touching your finger super high quality
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that's the moment yeah okay interesting yeah I think and also this is the headset that has a screen on
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the outside of it it's got the eyes going through it's got the the transparency where you can see through
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and people can see your eyes do you think that's also a a critical part of maybe what makes VR more appealing to people or is that lower on the totem pole I think that's much lower in the
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totem pole first of all I don't know why but no one's talking about the fact that that came straight out of Ready Player one like where the headsets are all I
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think they're all Optical pass through in Ready Player One oh yeah okay uh and you know and and it's it's almost like
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eyesight when the person is like super immersed in content you can't see their eyes but then oh yeah yeah totally I've
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gone back and I've rewatched and that's totally where it comes from so funny okay um you know I think that's like
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it's like apple design perspective at play here it's just like doing something really different and unique that tries
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to bring sort of human you know nature out into this crazy potentially isolating new type of Technology mhm I
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hope it survives because I think it's fascinating let's forget about the implementation as it's there today I think it's going to get a lot better if they decide to keep investing on it I
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hope it stays but I worry that it may not because the quest to reducing weight yeah pun was not intended uh is so much more important do you know that's something that would only happen in the
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non-pro version like in your opinion would they keep it in the pro model and still try to get rid of weight in other
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ways there's one circumstance where I think they might which is if they if the pro model uses such premium you know
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lightweight materials carbon Etc you know very expensive but lightweight materials that it it allows the bill of
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weight to sort of still have that lenticular display which I don't know how much that thing weighs but it's
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probably like in the 30 G 20 to 30 gam territory maybe including the display controller but thing you still to have glass on the outside and or fog glass pseudo glass whatever that thing is um
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which so so I think it comes down to like this trade-off space of weight versus features which I think is so ridiculously important right yeah I'm
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kind of curious about your thoughts on like apple doesn't like to call this a VR headset you know they they like to
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call it a spatial Computing headset which the first time I ever used this at our first briefing at wwc I sort of it
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sort of clicked for me what that meant because they had been talking about that over and over over again like it's
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spatial Computing the era of spatial Computing it's here yeah and for the most part unless you immerse yourself in
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a full environment you are mostly in just an AR environment that's right and so I know that now with the quest 3 and with the quest Pro but mostly with the quest 3 meta has been pushing into like
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okay we actually also have to enable these like AR mixed reality environments but in your in your opinion do you think
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that the mixed reality spatial Computing like Paradigm is the thing that's going
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to like push forward because I feel like meta sort of gave up on that a little bit for quite a while and realized
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people mostly use this for gaming yeah and that actually I think is a reason why the this still feels like a dev kit because there's not there's nothing to do in it yet you know and like they want
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you to use it for work but like do you think that that's that's a a paradigm that's going to move forward or do you
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think that apple is going to realize that maybe the hyper productivity stuff is not it but there's still merit to
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spatial Computing and they'll pivot yeah so I think um short answer is I think spatial Computing is the right bat to place with mixed reality augmented
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reality whatever we want to call it as sort of this super important defining element of it I think it is it had just
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has so much more utility um you know The Oasis isn't the thing in my opinion right uh the way the the way
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Oculus ended up focusing on gaming Beyond sort of its founding philosophy you know it was a company that was built by Gamers uh was the fact that we tried other things and they
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didn't work you know so gaming was like okay like product Market fit exists here
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let's keep investing on Tech that would enable something like Mak reality but let's go go all in on gaming first yeah
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I think that that's what I keep thinking about those especially the quest headsets is they didn't really
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necessarily have an obvious thing and gaming kind of surfaced as the thing that people like to do the most and
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that's that's the thing that people started gravitating towards and it works really well with controllers and now I see I mean this has happened with Apple
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products before where our first gen comes out and we just kind of wait and see what developers come up with and oh
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it seems like oh Fitness is catching on so the watch is now a fitness watch is it possible that a new thing will
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come up as the thing that people want to do in Vision Pro or does it have to be gaming again because there's no controllers with the Vision Pro yeah so
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it feels like gaming is going to be a weakness of the Vision Pro there's no really immersive VR or ar gaming
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experiences that I have found to be convincing yet yeah so spatial Computing feels like it's the other possible big thing but yeah I know gaming gaming is pretty good on the quest I think gaming
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is first of all it is a it is a piece of anything you want to do cuz like if it's a productivity device you're still going
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to want to have fun with it um I do think that um that uh sort of casual gaming mixed reality gaming is a is a sort of a fertile enough territory that Apple can kind of go all in on that
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stuff for a while without without um sort of giving into the immersive gaming stuff which as you said I think would require some sort of controller support and so on I think that's going to be
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more of a hobbyist thing and and I hope that Apple opens up enough sort of hooks
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such that the steam VR hobbyists can still find a way to play you know games with immersive VR games with Vision Pro
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but I think they're going to go on all in on casual games things that you can certainly do just with your hands going
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into you know social and share play gaming as well with multiple personas in one place that to me feels like a big
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enough place that it's worth Apple bet yeah that's fair it's funny because like for years they're always showing AR kit demos at
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these launches with the new iPad and to what end nothing has happened from that but it's like every single year they're like oh a d and d game is on a table and oh look everyone with their iPads can
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see it and at the time obviously it was like you're not going to go meet up with your friends in real life with your
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iPads and do this the whole time you're hanging out but this makes more sense with like the share play you're in different environments you're in
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different rooms and that was part of the videos too yeah there's no yeah that shared experience feels like the obvious
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next Dimension if you will of what would make something like this really appealing to people and would want them
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to use more often uh but yeah that's there's a lot of things are like one update away that I think could be really
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cool about this this type of headset um okay I want to I want to go through some
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of your uh your takes in your blog posts that I would consider hot takes and I don't know if you would agree obviously
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you have a lot of thoughts and you've much more experience than I do but some of these to me read as like really
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fascinating that may or may not turn out to be true so I want to go through some of them with you people may or may not disagree with yeah well we'll see got a
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lot of emails we'll see okay all right here's the first one I saw that I read um Apple intentionally made the display
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blurry to hide the screen door effect now just to clarify what the screen door effect is cuz the these displays in The Vision Pro are incredible and the this
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screen door effect is most often noticed in displays that are lacking resolution so break it down why why do you think
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Apple would do something like this and and why would it happen on a display with such high resolution so first of all hugely controversial Point um
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there's a very famous uh blogger in the VR space called Carl gut who's a display
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expert and I've I've based a lot of my sort of commentary here on some of his sort of objective findings uh I've since
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learned that there's a lot of people that sort of disagree with the approach that he's taken in some of these things um but I still think that his
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perspective is really useful so the the challenge with VR is that the pixels are
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too close to your face so even when they're so close at you know 3,000 PPI 3,000 plus PPI uh they're still not close enough
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that you can't see pixels um there's a whole thing around how you measure resolution in in VR you use angular
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resolution instead of pixels per inch or pixel display per degree right it's so get pixels per degree yeah and the you know even as high resolution as The Vision Pro is it's not approaching what
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you would consider Retina display for a VR device they're like maybe 60 to 70% of the way there so what that means is pixels are still actually discernible
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you can see two pixels apart um which means that things like screened or effect and alazine which are some of
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these sort of distortions or kind of visual artifacts that make it make things L less smooth to look at are still mildly present so my hot take here
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is that Apple maybe tuned their display to add a tiny bit of blur and lose a bit
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of perceived resolution just so that these little visual artifacts disappeared and they would get a softer
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look on the display which to me is kind of like a matter of taste right which is
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obviously something that we respect Apple for so I support that decision if that's how they went because it does
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make for something that just feels a bit more pleasant and less harsh than these
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visible things I think that's a good word I here's this the parallel I was going to draw when I'm shooting a video
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about a smartphone I'm pointing an 8K camera and a lens at a screen yep and these screens are incredibly high resolution and you can actually see when I pull focus on the lens when I hit the
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exact Focus plane of the lens because there's this harsh banded crisp like display and it's not like you're seeing individual pixels yeah but it is Harsh
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and I found that if I turn it just another fraction of a degree and it's slightly out of focus it's a little
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smoother and easier to look at especially with macros and so I was thinking about that when reading that I
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was like okay I don't know if apple is you know necessarily making their display blurrier or maybe just tuning
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the lenses to be slightly beyond the plane of focus of the display or whatever they're doing but as a taste
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decision I feel like I also support it because overall you don't want eye fatigue and as much as I want to see all
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the pixels I'm a pixel snob I kind of like I like it to be a little more pleasing to look at so I get it I feel
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like I get it yeah so that is I I agree with the take I like that one all right we're going to take a quick break for
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ads we'll be right back to talk about how maybe Apple Vision Pro is the best thing to happen to the West see you [Music]
00:20:38
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so head to netsuite.com waveform that's nets.com form netsuite.com form well we we kind of already went over this but I'll sort of phrase it in
00:22:53
the way that you did which is Apple Vision Pro is the best thing that ever happened to VR including for meta who
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has made their own headsets so this is probably like the highest confidence sort of take that I have having been in sort of the middle of the thing when I used to work at
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Oculus at meta uh you know side note is I used to joke or semi joke I would say in like company all hands and stuff that like the best thing that could happen to us was if Apple decided to enter you
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know VR and you know we've been there've been rumors about this for a long time um because I I really do think that um
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as I said when Apple cares everybody cares was going to be a thing that would help us tremendously like massively
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floats all boats massively grows the pie and it was interesting to even see Mark
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Mark Zuckerberg's video recently where he kind of talks about the elephant in the room right like obviously he he
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cares about what's happening so why not talk about it which I give him huge props for and it's just so interesting
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you know putting aside whether you age agree or disagree with things he said I most agree um but putting that aside for
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a second it's so interesting to see how meta you know in the voice of Mark in this case has now shifted from evangelizing to
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competing right so before it was like Hey VR is cool like you got to try this you got please please try it like go try
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it here's some cool things that you can do with it to like no longer consumers don't need to be convinced that VR is
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cool they now know that VR is cool yeah so now it's like why do we have a better product and I love that because now it's
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all focus is on the teams that build the product and how to make it better and chasing your competitor whether they're
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in front of you or in your rear viiew mirror it's kind of like Android versus iOS all over again that's the comparison
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I think a lot of people would make and obviously it's Apple so it makes sense that this is the iPhone of it but the
00:24:51
the competitor to the iPhone often needs to come up with the reason why you would choose it over the iPhone especially in
00:24:57
this country it's just very popular thing you have to do yeah and so sometimes it's price sometimes it's a couple features that this one doesn't
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have sometimes it's some customization that this one doesn't have and there are a lot of really good reasons why people
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would buy a quest 3 over a Vision Pro despite being at a seventh of the price or whatever it is so I I I think that's
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a comparison a lot of people will make on that note where you you know where you say like now that we have
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competitors it legitimizes everything the interesting thing that I've noticed about this that you actually said in
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your blog was that this is one of the first Apple products that didn't really meet the build it and they will come
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mindset for developers which I also find weird right because Apple announced it eight months before it came out something like that and they were like you know we've got the these devkits
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available you can build these apps and it seemed like you would have developers rushing to make apple Vision pro
00:25:53
versions of apps right when it launched there were like 600 that were Native everything else was iPad which cool you
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can natively Port over stuff but why do you think developers have not garnered so much interest in making native Vision Pro apps like it seems worth it to do now so that when the second generation's
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out you already have something you can build on what's your take on that yeah so I totally agree with everything you said and I I think that um it's likely
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that Apple just really underestimated the sort of the Apple Magic influence over developers uh by thinking that more
00:26:27
things would show up of those 600 frankly Apple probably had to even lower its bar for approval in the app because there's a lot of like random stock tick timers and things widgets you can put on
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walls you know like right yeah collection of widgets makes sense but you know widgets as like maybe
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individual apps are are just not as interesting so I think they did underestimate um uh their or
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overestimate their power were developers and didn't actively do what they possibly could could to get some of these key apps in the store you know to like really even if they had to pay developers or give them all sorts of
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incentives I think they probably should have done that they thought the incentive would just be we're Apple we're apple right so and I'll mention my
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favorite example of where Apple missed a beautiful opportunity have you guys tried piano Vision on Quest 3 I think has yes yeah Ellis is a piano player as
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well Ellis what do you what do you think of that app uh it it's one of those things that like wow this would be so
00:27:27
cool it's a really good way ofing and like there's like a piano Vision like clone in in the in the Vision Pro store which
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is like really not that good it's called Piano frames I think um and but piano vision is like a legitimate tool for learning how to play piano I learned piano as a child and I forgot it all and
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I sort of went back to learning it with with that app and it's just like like I can't think of a better example of an augmented reality app that one so why
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isn't it available on Vision Pro right you know it's so weird it it just I maybe it's because the price is expensive and developers don't know but my sort of take on that was that I just
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felt like developers didn't know what to do yet and I think that that's why you're seeing so much kind of shovelware apps is because people don't understand
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yet what the Paradigm of spatial Computing is versus just something in virtual reality we at Oculus we had to
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Chade developers a a lot like we sat down with them we helped make the app better we put a lot of budget to work
00:28:34
towards you know funding the developments and I think maybe Apple could have done a bit more of that maybe
00:28:39
there's still time to do it yeah they when we talked to Apple about this they I mean maybe they're not talking to us
00:28:45
about it but they talk so much about the development of the hardware how amazing the hardware is how long they've spent
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inventing new technologies and building new things materials inside this to make
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it pH phally possible we had to invent this to make it fit in this so we could do this I'm like that's all amazing but
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people have to use it now things they're going to want to actually do in the headset that are uh kind of like lacking
00:29:10
at the moment like there's a couple big apps Netflix YouTube things that just aren't here that I think if they were
00:29:16
that I could more easily answer the question what does it do because I would have a couple more things to say that oh
00:29:22
you you already know about Netflix you know what this does and this it's just right there just right on the doorstep
00:29:27
of like being easy to explain um here's another one of your hot takes I'll read to you uh the battery this this thing right here the battery hanging off the Vision Pro um I I thought it was you
00:29:41
know a compromise for weight and heat but you're saying it's actually an intentional decision and that they will
00:29:48
keep it this way for the foreseeable future to tether other things and get you used to the idea of tethering to the division Pro yeah please explain and
00:29:56
this is a super controversial one I do really really think that it's one of the most important things that Apple did it's like number two in my list of thank you Apple things the first one is Gaz
00:30:08
and pinch and introducing the world to that it's just a gift to humanity this one is not quite a gift to humanity but it sets the right tone for for
00:30:16
VR taking the battery off is the first step in a journey of reducing the weight by pulling components but also pulling heat generation out of the headset just to give you an idea I don't know how
00:30:28
much this thing weighs obviously there's a lot a lot there besides the battery but the the quest three battery is 69
00:30:35
grams nice right which is like what 15% maybe of its weight 69 G yeah it's about
00:30:41
yeah 500 gr yeah something like that right um and but when you start to take off 70
00:30:49
grams for the battery and you you know you take out a whole PCB and now all of a sudden you can take
00:30:55
out the fan because you don't have heat on that thing anymore and like you start
00:31:00
to find a path to that magical 300 gr which I think is where things really turn uh and people stop saying that this headset is too heavy to wear but also it
00:31:11
starts making their face you know hot and Ellis I hear you totally on that totally totally hear you on that um so the only way to do that is to set
00:31:23
expectation with V1 that there's a tether brick off this thing all the way to inventing a you
00:31:32
know a belt clip and sell it in your store despite the ridicule that that may seem I think that's all worth it so okay
00:31:39
the the foreseeable future of Vision Pro then is battery is always tethered but also giving getting people used to that
00:31:46
idea also allows them to in the future possibly take more pieces of Vision Pro out of the headset and tether them as
00:31:52
well so that you get this lighter and lighter face computer yep it's a good idea and not only moving things to this
00:31:59
brick but at some point you may not need the brick anymore because you can just plug it into your MacBook or your iPad
00:32:07
or even your iPhone sure definitely well I guess the magic right now is that you just look at your Mac and it appears and
00:32:13
that's super cool but if you if you get let's say because we we expect there to be a non-pro of this headset at some
00:32:20
point an apple Vision Pro is 3500 and apple vision air or whatever 15 is somewhere down the road
00:32:35
Mac and they still have the tether and it's everyone's used to the tether I I think getting that headset to
00:32:41
$1,500 without getting rid of the compute is going to be a really tall challenge what do you think is okay if
00:32:48
you were to start now chopping things out of Vision Pro to get to the magical $1,500 headset what do you what do you
00:32:54
get rid of right off the bat I feel like you have to get rid of the eyesight if with today's Tech yeah I I think yeah
00:33:01
eyesight I don't know how much that weighs but it is a bit of dead weight uh you you might argue I think the um the
00:33:10
uh what their depth camera not the lighter but the other camera true depth camera the true depth camera which I
00:33:16
think they only use for the Persona enrollment it might be another thing you can get rid of use that use your iPhone
00:33:21
to enroll chop that off all together uh I think you know they can probably use four or five tracking cameras instead of six I have to think about your mouth because that's almost
00:33:33
exclusively why you have the facing the cameras facing down that um anyway but then I think so then the next thing I
00:33:41
would move out is the M2 Chip and that whole thing yeah the last thing to go would probably be the R1 chip and
00:33:47
everything around it because of because that's when you really are to be there it needs to be there because it's a sensor right right I wanted to drill
00:33:53
down into that a little bit further into the plugging in Paradigm because Apple specifically see it seems like they want
00:34:01
this to feel like it's a computer don't need your MacBook anymore you don't need it you know it's it's it's a whole thing
00:34:07
it has an M2 Chip in it it's just as powerful as a MacBook Air y so it's a it's a weird Paradigm right because they're they're basically selling it as a whole separate computer
00:34:19
but they're also selling it as a a headset which we don't traditionally see as a computer and know that Oculus you
00:34:25
know they they have a standalone chip in inside of it too but you're not doing you're not like running a browser on
00:34:32
that generally you know but but Apple has Safari in there they've got iMessage in there and all of these different apps
00:34:39
do you see a point in time where they I know that you said that they were going to like remove it and switch to plug
00:34:46
could they feasibly do that you know and have like a cheaper one that doesn't have its own computer and is powered by
00:34:52
a separate computer you you could sell this as an accessory right this is essentially an iPad Pro in a box you
00:35:00
know probably with some additional C processing capability maybe not even because if you want to make it plugable
00:35:05
into an iPad you then have to move that into the iPad anyway right so this is like you could literally sell the computer as compter option right that
00:35:12
turns your headset into a fully you know enclosed uh uh spatial computer that gives you the equivalent of an iPad Pro in terms of compute capabilities and power and so on and so forth and I think that's a very viable
00:35:28
um computer to have with you it's like a Mac Mini in a way and we're very close to does have a screen we're very close to this being a special iPad Pro that's
00:35:38
very usable and suitable for a lot of different tasks forget the price right but as far as job to do I think we're
00:35:46
very close we're maybe two software updates away plus filling in the the App Store Gap from being there which is very
00:35:52
exciting yeah could we get rid of the speakers and have consumers be happy you have to use airpods you have to use something else but that just feels like some you know in 99% of other electronic
00:36:05
times we're using devices we're using not the speakers on the device but it seems like VR headsets I don't know a
00:36:12
lot of people that feel the way that wear specifically headphones when they're doing VR yeah I I think you
00:36:18
probably don't need to because I don't think it necessarily buys you that much in terms of weight reduction and cost
00:36:23
reduction and I think it does take away from that sort of magical put it on in your good to go kind of thing so um that
00:36:30
probably would rank a lot lower in my priority list yeah oh I have I have like very existential questions that are like
00:36:37
yeah future out I don't know if we want to jump into those right off the bat I I could I could pitch one if you want sure go for it um okay so I remember when I
00:36:45
was reporting on Oculus stuff way back in the day and they I think acquired um what coming the AC choir it was it was some VR 360 story retelling company and
00:36:59
they basically made a couple of movies that you could watch in VR and it was like immersive because it would be all
00:37:05
around you and you had to do all this stuff where do you see the like do things like that actually
00:37:12
pull users in and make it a paradigm that people want to use cuz I always thought when I was reporting on that I
00:37:17
was like it's a cool little experience but just like this launched with the Alicia Keys experience and I'm sure that they'll launch yeah and it's amazing right it's amazing but it's sort of like
00:37:29
a demo of what the headset is good for in general yeah do you think that invest Apple investing in more of those kind of experiences is something would actually get people to buy the headset because
00:37:43
when with the Oculus thing it was a cool couple of movies but it didn't feel like someone was going to buy an Oculus to
00:37:50
watch these movies cuz not that many of them are going to be produced yeah and then you know how many times are you
00:37:56
going to want want to watch that same movie again right right so you almost need like an infinite that was part of the appeal but it was also something
00:38:03
that would get old kind of fast I don't know I've watched the Alicia Keys video like 12 times now really it's great no
00:38:09
no but yeah that's that's it reminds me of um the 3D phase we did the whole 3D thing for a while or even the red hydrogen came out and it was like look at this amazing video on the red hydrogen and it would look pretty cool
00:38:24
and then you'd be done and you'd be like okay what else a tech demo that's it it's a party trick yeah I think that's
00:38:30
something Mark Zuckerberg talked a lot about which is they have invested so much in not just games but also Content
00:38:37
Library and just Partnerships in general for things for people to do in quest yeah and that's a big part of why Quest
00:38:44
is pretty good but to me that still feels like a way for trying to get people to stick around but not
00:38:50
necessarily the reason people show up you know what I mean yeah so boy do I have a lot to say that yeah yeah so first of all and this is a bit of a hot take um I don't think this is
00:39:02
not exactly what you ask but it's background okay I don't think re rectilinear video watching in VR is a
00:39:09
thing that retains we've tested it extensively and it's really cool yeah but over time you're like I know I'm
00:39:15
just going to watch it on the TV or on my phone or on my iPad and so on so you know rectilinear V which is rectangular
00:39:20
whether it's 3D or not yeah I don't think is a a major appeal it's I mean you you don't create a device as sophisticated this just for people to watch TV in it right um so then you go
00:39:31
into the immersive yeah video format which is what you're talking about which is incredible but it's also like is this
00:39:38
the reason to buy the device so there's three things that I that I can think of all of which my guess is that Apple will
00:39:45
experiment with the first one is storytelling and it's TV shows right because the thing with the magic with TV
00:39:50
shows is that if you're into it there's like seasons and seasons and Seasons that you can keep making kind of exploring the same character and so on
00:39:57
and so forth uh I think uh dramatic storytelling in immersive format is going to be difficult to do and you talk
00:40:05
about this in the in one of the wave form podcasts early on about sort of how storytelling in 360 was so much harder and I agree with all of that um so yes
00:40:16
they'll experiment but I just don't see it being that good from like a cinema and artistic perspective the the two things that I am excited about one is music which I think
00:40:27
proven by the Alicia Keys sort of intimate Studio Concert uh and I think there's a lot to do there and the other one is sports and especially live sports
00:40:38
I need that I need that that's the one that's the number one thing I cannot wait to actually get to use in this
00:40:44
thing and so many people have told me I'm wrong on this and you know time will tell but I could not be more convinced
00:40:51
that uh the the biggest thing that V are will change or I should say the big thing that VR will change first is not gaming it's not productivity it's
00:41:03
spectator sports and I was personally involved in shooting that Oculus go um Adam Lavine
00:41:11
Jonah Hill like courtside at the NBA you know ad from a long time ago of course we couldn't deliver all that product
00:41:17
experience that's a different thing um but it really really really transforms the experience of watching sports and it's so complicated technically and artistically technically because you
00:41:28
have to figure out a way to do like 8K live broadcasts which is super complicated you know you guys know a lot
00:41:33
more about this than I do and artistically because each sport is different like where do you put the camera where do you put the big screen
00:41:40
you know when do you change angles you know how do you do replays and so on and so forth but I'm so convinced just look
00:41:46
how much money people spend to go to a game that's what I that's exactly what I was saying yeah you know there are
00:41:52
infinite ways that I've thought of that I would like to participate in live sports in the vision Pro the one that
00:41:57
came to mind cuz there was that like demo reel where I think it was there's a basketball game and there was soccer one
00:42:03
where you were like above the net that's not even a real seat you can buy that's better than any seat you can buy but you're above the net and you can see the
00:42:10
play developing in front of you and it's like you know that there are people with disposable income spending $3,000 on a
00:42:16
headset that would love to spend an extra hundred bucks to watch that game live from the best seat in the house like that's a real obvious opportunity the other one that comes to mind is
00:42:27
basketball where if you're at a I don't know Courtside seat which is very expensive you don't actually get the
00:42:33
best view but it is super cool because you get to see the size of the players and the coaches right in front of you
00:42:38
and the refer past you and all this fun stuff and I wish I don't know how technically difficult it actually is to
00:42:45
execute on but I wish that there was a little rig right next to the scores table that would let me sit there and
00:42:52
look around as if I was sitting in that seat but it it's not a real thing yet and I just keep waiting for someone to
00:42:57
pull it off well Apple bought that company yeah there was a company called nextvr 2020 uh these guys are absolute
00:43:04
Geniuses they've been doing this for you know a decade so they know the ins and outs of shooting in 180 3D uh including
00:43:11
that dual 8K crazy format that they've just launched but also they've really invested into thinking about the
00:43:17
broadcast pipeline because they want to get to live sports and and like it's not even that hard to do something simple
00:43:24
that already works even the Center Court seat you know basketball NBA Center Court uh uh Courtside seat with a big
00:43:33
ass projected TV just on top that shows the regular broadcast exactly man that's good enough for a lot of people you
00:43:39
don't have to go much further yeah and then you go all the way to like the Formula 1 craziness you guys talked
00:43:44
about that in the Pod as well like I mean that's just is a different world that requires a lot more production um
00:43:51
so it's it's I I think it's coming I am convinced that when Apple was negotiating its MLS rights and they got
00:43:58
like the full package they got they got it all they were already thinking about this and people have been seeing cameras
00:44:04
Courtside and MLS games for a long time yeah there's a film coming question is how long until we can watch an MLS Match live in immersive right I'm that will
00:44:16
make this purchase worth it for me just that I think Apple could sell millions of headsets if they can nail life Sports I guess the benefit of that is that their Sports have happening all the time
00:44:28
so it's not like you have to wait for Apple to develop a new a new movie with the storytelling and the shooting and
00:44:34
the production it's just like repetitive I remember um back when the HTC VI was out and it was pretty new uh valve released I don't know if you're privy to like Dota 2 the video game yeah okay so
00:44:47
I've played DOTA for like 12 years and um beta you like you like DOTA what crazy and Val because they uh worked so tightly with HTC early on because steam
00:44:58
VR and all that stuff they've always been into VR they released like a special DOTA 3D mode that you could
00:45:06
spectate in where you could look at the map from above and kind of tilt the map map around while the live pro match was happening amazing and you could like zoom in on the players moving around and
00:45:17
stuff and I thought it was super cool but it didn't feel like a better way to watch the live game like it again sort of felt like that like Tech demo party
00:45:28
trick thing for me where I liked watching one game in it and then after that I was like I would rather watch
00:45:34
this the regular way and this is not a real well real sport it's an esport very different from like people jumping in front of you but I wonder like it just
00:45:47
makes me wonder whether or not that has that much appeal but then you guys say that it does so I guess I should just
00:45:52
believe you um yeah I don't know I I I guess that if if you could have a better watching experience every single week people would probably buy these even if they could just only use it to watch the
00:46:04
live sport once a week I think the Vision Pro and any high quality VR hats can can be a single purpose device for a
00:46:12
lot of different people life Sports is one thing you know teleportation uh is another thing you know an external
00:46:19
monitor is another thing uh it just has to get it has to get good enough for those things to be you know viable all
00:46:25
right we're going to take one more quick break but when we come back a lot more on how Apple's been marketing and packaging Vision
00:46:32
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capabilities I also keep hearing AI is going to change a lot in the gaming World Andrew can you think of anything about that not just optimization like
00:48:09
you said but like more personal optimization I could see happening where like maybe you're playing a competitive
00:48:15
game like valerant and you want higher FPS and lower resolution like you you're okay versus like The Witcher where you
00:48:20
might want 4K crispy resolution and like a lower frame rate I think finding that
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between your computer specs and what you want might help out a lot nice so all of
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the models that I've been talking about are available right now at ors.com slaptop gigabyte AI so that's a o r
00:48:41
s.com SL laptops SL gigabyte D aai gigabyte team up fight on and then Apple kind of like they kind of twisted their marketing for the Vision Pro to be more focused around media consumption more
00:48:55
recently right because they kind of realized that the workspace thing wasn't really built out
00:49:01
yet in the apps Mar coming yep so a lot of their verbiage you you WR wrote about that in your um in your blog post can
00:49:08
you expand on that a little bit Yeah I call their their marketing like 6040 60 initially at least 60% productivity 40% video and I think that may have flipped
00:49:19
you look at some of the latest assets that they've put out and so on um and and you're totally right I think that
00:49:25
Apple pulled a product marketing rabbit out of their hole out of their their hat M um knowing how little they had for
00:49:32
this launch they were already committed to it right developers didn't come so what do you do so you go all in on
00:49:39
something that is magical and that demos really well which is video watching like watching UH 60 FPS Avatar in 3D it's 60
00:49:47
FPS I think right it's like some weird is between 48 and 60 and 96 96 difference it's it's literally not the same frame rate throughout the movie it switches frame rate swiches frame I
00:50:00
wonder what it's like if it's also like that I mean it must be right it probably is it's Dynamic it was it was a headache
00:50:06
to watch in the theater I'll tell you that yeah yeah it's funny I think I could sense something but my eye was
00:50:12
nowhere near as well trained as yours to like notice oh that's a frame rate change the cut yeah when they would switch to like running scenes where it
00:50:19
was moving fast it would switch to 60 FPS and it felt like a video game cut scene I think it was 24 to 48 by the way
00:50:25
24 to 48 okay which is what The Hobbit was filmed in for the entire movie and the entire movie looked like a video
00:50:30
game cut scene so they put High frame rate videos in Apple TV plus you know and did all the things that they could
00:50:36
to make this as appealing as it could be uh I just I just don't think it's going to sustain the product for very long
00:50:42
yeah here's another a context question with apple Vision Pro what is the what is the ideal weight to to actually feel
00:50:50
like you've successfully made something that people can wear for a long time cuz this is a notoriously heavy headset it's
00:50:56
aluminum has some plastic and glass it's around 600 gr right we've seen lighter headsets a lot of people reference the quest 3 the quest 3 happens to be around
00:51:06
about 500 gr but if you could keep going down is there like a magical weight that
00:51:12
you hit where you just feel like you can wear it forever like sunglasses and if so is that anywhere in because I think
00:51:19
about like what tech is actually possible with what we have now is that actually possible with the tech we have to make a light enough headset that's
00:51:26
still good but also light I think it is if you can get if you can work really hard on your sensors if you can move the compute and the battery off the headset okay work for a couple of generations I
00:51:37
think you can you can break the 300 350 G 350 kind of territory which okay can I
00:51:44
show my toy I would love yeah please um which funny enough um is where Oculus started this is a an original Oculus dk1 yeah from 2016
00:51:56
uh I believe um and this this is just a display it's nothing else right and it's
00:52:02
380 G you know you put this thing on and it's a little bit strange the foam is not exactly super comfortable and so on
00:52:09
but you feel okay like this is a like qualitative difference from wearing um any of the headsets that exist today so I think 350 grams is kind of where it
00:52:23
starts to look really interesting that's like about a smartphone weight I think wait how me let me Google that iPhone 15
00:52:29
Pro max weight about 260 right yeah I think 220 yeah okay so like it's so one and a half smartphones yeah now this is this is
00:52:40
even lighter what is this is the Matrix what are you wearing now and and this is what some people call the Ready Player
00:52:46
one headset um this is called the big screen Beyond uh and to be clear I have no affiliation with company or anything
00:52:52
I just think they're badasses this is 127 grams wow wow uh and which is lighter than most ski goggles or many ski goggles yeah it's half a iPhone 15 Pro Max yeah that's lighter than most
00:53:06
phones yeah so that but that's just a screen and that's it no like this is just a screen U with a custom facial
00:53:13
interface that's made for my face and it's not like one of 28 that was chosen for me it's actually custom printed for
00:53:19
my face and this is just a screen with it's a microad display like in The Vision Pro with a pancake lens like in
00:53:25
The Vision Pro it's a tethered headset to be clear it has no sensors no pass through um so obviously it's a very
00:53:32
different subclass of VR product but what I like about this product and the fact that it exists that it kind of shows us what sort of this desirable end state is like where do we think that
00:53:43
this thing could ultimately go when all of the technologies that need to be invented are finally there yeah um and
00:53:50
this would be a beautiful future yeah I made a video kind of talking about this Collision Course that we're on and it may not be a collision but on one side there's VR headsets with a ton of
00:54:02
technology in them that weigh 500 gr and we're trying to make them smaller and smaller and lighter every year but on
00:54:07
the other side is smart glasses and it's something you can wear today and look normal but you can't fit much Tech in them so they're trying to fit more and more and more Tech cameras sensors
00:54:18
compute while keeping them the size of smart glasses and they're kind of just doing this they're going at each other
00:54:24
this feels right about in the middle I don't know if you have a thought about which one might end up winning people
00:54:30
over faster or which one could win I tend to feel like smart glasses are more approachable to more people they're also less Tech so they're more affordable y but what are your thoughts on that I
00:54:41
think there is um there is a theoretical form factor right in the middle there which is the the ski goggles Optical pass through theoretical
00:54:54
product mhm it it's it's actually what a lot of the Ready Player One headsets look like they because you can see the
00:55:01
person's eyes and they their Optical P they're transparent displace uh that to me would be one of
00:55:08
the most revolutionary form factors it's very unclear uh if you know one can build a
00:55:14
wi fov you know transparent display that would be sort of you know all the good things that we need that was a pun I
00:55:21
don't know if he was that on purpose it was very unclear that was good I you know great
00:55:28
they just come up yeah yeah so so that to me you know and that would be like a you know a 300 200 to
00:55:35
300 G device ideally that's a beautiful thing I think the the optical pass through you know glasses form factor where there's an actual display that's
00:55:47
more than just a notification screen I worri that product may never exist because it's just phenomenally difficult to build you know an actual
00:55:58
display into such a small form factor where everything is so close to your eye and so on and so forth so there's
00:56:04
prototypes of that out there I've seen some of them uh will that product exist you know in the next 10 to 15 years I'm
00:56:11
not sure if it will yeah that that feels like one of those sci-fi things that is
00:56:17
hard to imagine with what we know about technology today yeah even though it seems really cool as quickly as the uh
00:56:23
headset and glasses things are like approaching each other it still feels like they're on their own track because
00:56:30
especially with what meta is doing with its AI assistance that you can have in your meta Ray bands now it's more about
00:56:37
contextual awareness of your everyday life and not necessarily manipulating your everyday life whereas this is more
00:56:44
focused on manipulating your everyday life but obviously it's a giant headset and so I'm sure that there's some sort
00:56:49
of like in between that because they want to get those smaller meta wants to get those more powerful but like you
00:56:54
said the the technology required just weightwise you can't have a pair of rayb bands that have an M2 Chip inside
00:57:01
yeah you know so I I have a question around the sort of like developers build it and they will come mindset because that didn't happen in the Vision Pro yeah but it especially is not happening
00:57:13
now I feel because when there was hype around the Vision Pro when it first came out we saw a lot of developers that were
00:57:20
making Vision Pro apps as soon as they got their Vision Pro because they needed to understand the paradig of how spatial
00:57:27
Computing worked better uh but now it feels like it's been out for a while people aren't talking about it every
00:57:33
week anymore and there was already way less developer hype than Apple assumed there would be now how does Apple get
00:57:42
people more excited about this device and do you think that people are still going to be working on like stuff for it
00:57:48
or is it going to take until a generation 2 to reignite developers to actually think maybe this is worth
00:57:54
building for yeah I think the organic creating organic excitement uh is going to be very tough because as you said right the a lot of that wave of excitement of curiosity of interest in
00:58:07
the product from consumers is starting to go away so uh I believe Apple will will just have to use money uh they'll have to fund some of these startups you
00:58:17
know some of these game developer Studios you know and others um plus you know do ambitious Partnerships which
00:58:24
require like executive level you know conversations and so on to really bring some of these new things to life you
00:58:30
know it's not an it's not an an unknown playbook in developer relations it's just one that I don't think Apple uses
00:58:36
that often because they have such incredible Market power yeah um but I think it you know it's a rounding error
00:58:42
to zero in sort of have to open the old wallet and and then they got to get Final Cup Pro in 3D thank you yeah thank
00:58:50
you that just needs to exist I'm tired of mirroring from my Mac and having one monitor I need spatial final cut yeah
00:58:57
I'm just saying Tim you could make it happen tomorrow if you wanted to uh no I also think it's also part of it is Apple
00:59:04
could have gone two different directions with like attracting people to this VR idea one of them with super super high-end amazing Tech the other which is
00:59:11
a little bit less Apple like is super super accessible available cheaper and I think they typically go with this before they go with that so ideally drum up
00:59:22
excitement people get to experience this which that's what they're doing you can go to an Apple Store today and experience the fun thing but someday
00:59:29
when there's a apple Vision Pro Se whatever that's going to be the another exciting moment for okay the developers have gotten the thing to the form factor
00:59:40
now it'll start to be available for the masses but that's TBD we'll have to see yeah there was and there was uh
00:59:47
something really fun that in that I found very interesting in your blog post kind of piggybacking off that about how
00:59:52
Apple like over engineered this thing on Purp purpose can you like expand on that
00:59:58
idea a little bit Yeah so I think we all know that Vision breu has just been under development for years and years at at Apple and I'm sure they've gone through like you know hundreds of prototypes and so on and a lot of these
01:00:11
technologies that sort of became good enough to ship became good enough to ship like a couple of years ago right
01:00:18
and the way that Apple does their kind of pipeline for launched product is like you have to start you know drisking it and making it like production ready you know sometimes years in advance so I
01:00:30
think what happened is they just it's like a train right like so they just on boarded a bunch of these Technologies
01:00:35
you know a few years ago onto a train continued to work on them um and today there's ways to do you know less sensors lighter sensors and so on but like that stuff isn't ready to go internally at
01:00:48
Apple at least at the level of quality and integration that they need so they just got to ship the stuff that's been on the shelf for a while so I think
01:00:54
that's one component right it's just like it's technology that was built a couple of years ago that leads to like
01:01:00
higher weight and so on and so forth the other thing is like they this being the first time they were launching this
01:01:07
product into the world they have to make it almost like unbreakable right like they have to make it extra everything so
01:01:13
that no matter what developers throw at it no matter what reviewers throw at it no matter what users throw at it it will
01:01:19
sustain so I really think that that's part of what they're do as look and overdoing a little bit overplaying a
01:01:25
little bit just so that they are in a kind of safe position before starting to take some risks you know that could be a
01:01:30
lot of crack gate type things if they didn't do that yeah yeah well there's always people will find Gates no matter
01:01:36
what they they have a habit of doing that um I have a maybe an existential question to finish this which is okay we want to make this the most incredible piece of technology of all time super
01:01:48
immersive best field of view highest resolution let's fast forward a little bit let's get let's get 10 years down
01:01:56
the line with the highest end best possible VR headset if people are able to successfully deliver retina resolution and as a bonus let's throw in other
01:02:08
senses too it's got incredible speakers and it can make you feel heat or cold and the wind in your hair let's say you can give people all of the senses through a VR headset yeah and you go out
01:02:20
to this virtually reconstructed Grand Canyon in the headset and you look at it and you really think you're looking at
01:02:26
the Grand Canyon like all of your senses are fully tricked you hear the birds chirping you hear you feel the wind in
01:02:31
your hair and you feel the heat on the top of your head through the headset and you know it's through the headset but it is a perfect reconstruction do you still
01:02:42
feel and there's no right answer to this but do you still feel like you have to go see the real thing or do you feel
01:02:48
like you've seen it are you in the Oasis at that point basically I think the moral of the story
01:02:54
is watch Ready Player One CU that's kind of how it feels sometimes but I wonder what your thoughts are yeah you know
01:03:01
I I I think that it's like mostly great that people you know will be able to get
01:03:06
to places that they otherwise maybe couldn't afford to go or can travel you know all that far take the vacation to go to and and so on but I think there's
01:03:13
just a little bit of like okay that's like a philosophical challenge for Humanity like you know it is it is kind
01:03:19
of the Oasis at the at its fullest state but um you know I think it's mostly great and you're still not going to be able to like hug in VR uh you never know I felt half to Happ the gloves are
01:03:31
pretty pretty good they're just kidding they were terrible and yeah I I I think at the the
01:03:37
end state of this is teleportation you know you and Cleo talked about that in in that video that she put out a few
01:03:43
weeks ago I think that's the greatest contribution to humanity of this new Computing Paradigm is just being able to
01:03:49
just be with other people yeah in their house or in your house or in some other place uh it's going to take a while to get there that's pretty powerful yeah
01:04:00
well I have one more question for you how fast can you type the alphabet Oh man uh it's been such a long time since I think I measure that last I
01:04:11
may have to try it again well Boyd do we have the test for you this is a bit of a
01:04:16
tradition around here where uh we have our guests type the alphabet A through Z as fast as we can you can be as
01:04:22
competitive or non-competitive as you like but we will offer offer you yeah we have style keyboard three different
01:04:28
keyboard types you can either use the keyboard built in there's a mechanical keyboard or there's like a uh Apple
01:04:36
magic keyboard whatever your best I think I'm going to go Apple Magic Apple Magic okay just do you do you spend a
01:04:43
lot of time typing on like apple keyboards like chicklet little style keyboards like that I I have that exact
01:04:48
same magic keyboard oh that's perfect home field and and I also have a dig key thanks to Android me that mechanical keyboard so better he's gotten into all of our heads at some point and
01:05:01
definitely got us the bug I just bought a mechanical keyboard because of Andrew I went backwards I used to be in the
01:05:06
mechanical keyboards and now I'm like give me the magic keyboard Isen it's already screen recording amazing okay
01:05:13
well it's pretty simple all you got to do is uh hit the letter a and then hit the letter b and then hit the letter c
01:05:20
and then when you hit Z don't hit enter just that's it yeah and if I made a mistake if you make a
01:05:26
mistake it will not continue until you hit the appropriate letter so you don't have to backspace you just have to hit every letter in order so you have to
01:05:31
watch the screen while you're typing to make sure you okay do I get one practice R um we we'll give you three total runs
01:05:38
most people tend to improve as they go you know no pressure okay I'm glad we're not
01:05:45
recording all right here we go you know there's one challenge here which is forget about I'm going to do again 5
01:06:03
Seconds 5.5 seconds I think that's pretty good oh that's already pretty good 5.5 yeah it's better than you think
01:06:10
all right that's pretty good we have a little leaderboard 5.7 nice dang one unas one more all
01:06:24
right I feel like you're pretty high on the leaderboard actually ad do you have the leaderboard
01:06:31
available he does I have it pulled up 4.83 whoa whoa whoa whoa 4.83 whoa whoa dropping tth of a second off of that time okay wow so 4.83 puts you
01:06:45
right after Marquez oh and ahead of Josh Wardle so you are inent of fifth place oh my gosh top five top five to five wow of well done well done here you go in in
01:06:58
not that many tries top five on the leaderboard is very impressive this may be a new kill I didn't know about yeah
01:07:04
you never know and this is just this like first three tries you might you might go try this later to your res 4.2
01:07:09
all right that's that's good I will take that if you're curious about some other times the list is very extensive who's
01:07:16
top Tom Scott 3.5 seconds wow Tom Scott was very prepared very competitive broke
01:07:23
out his own keyboard here's the list and the list goes I don't think there's any double digits on there but look at Cleo
01:07:30
4.3 yeah damn that's good yeah and qu yeah so you know people who type a lot people spend a lot of time around keyboards you might be surprised how fast you can type the alphabet huh but
01:07:41
that's it that's that's where we end it so thank you for thank you for your time and of course for all the Insight Well
01:07:47
we'd love to have you back obviously we talk about stuff like this all the time not just the current Tech but the
01:07:52
history and the context of it so this is super fun and uh hopefully we get to do it again sometime it's a dream come true
01:07:57
to be here thank you guys great work appreciate it so that's about it that was that was really fun thanks again to
01:08:03
Hugo for coming to the studio and for sharing the time the expertise it's always fun having conversations with
01:08:09
people who are very knowledgeable about this stuff and I feel like this is still very early like as much as we've talked
01:08:16
about VR for the past 10 years like this is rapidly developing we didn't even touch spatial what are they called
01:08:23
spatial personas in this conversation and like all the weird stuff that's been happening with Hardware since that
01:08:29
conversation Brandon's Vision Pro has like cracked up the middle all the stuff is is going to be pretty constant but I
01:08:35
feel like this is a fun spot for this episode and this conversation cuz uh it was a good time so uh thanks again leave
01:08:42
any comments of any things that you learned maybe while listening to this episode but maybe Hugo will be in the comments maybe he maybe he will that
01:08:48
would actually be put pretty sick uh but I think this is a part where uh we sign out oh yeah wave forers produce actually
01:08:55
I think David did this already let's throw it to David wa for produc adamia and Ellis Revan we are associated with
01:09:01
the fox commity podcast Network and our intro music is by ban Sil close enough pretty CL we'll do it we'll take it
01:09:08
we'll keep it [Music]