00:00:00
No more doc for me. Wow, it's committing to it. I'm committing. I like that. I
00:00:04
don't click on those things. I just I just do command space. I'm going to do
00:00:07
that, too. >> I'm going to hide my doc. Is this something we can all agree on?
00:00:11
>> I'm a raycast. >> I was going to say >> I can't. >> The real end to this whole debate is
00:00:14
everyone has way too many tabs open and just do whatever you want. I thought it was fun.
00:00:19
>> Yeah, that's the whole reason I liked Arc in the first place cuz I have way
00:00:21
too many tabs open and it closes them for me. You don't want Arc. You want an
00:00:25
AI browser by Atlassian. Yo, what is up people of the internet? Welcome back to another episode of the
00:00:36
Waveform Podcast. We're your hosts. I'm Marquez. >> I'm Andrew.
00:00:39
>> And I'm David. >> This week, we've got NASA coming back from the moon. Sick. Uh, Chrome adding
00:00:44
vertical tabs, uh, which we can talk about if they're actually better or not.
00:00:49
>> What? Uh, Samsung messages shutting down, anthropic project Glass Swing, and
00:00:53
how A&C to headphones is causing potential safety issues, and how a car company's trying to fix that. And we'll
00:00:58
end it all with Andrew's whoop rant part. I also put and like four times in there,
00:01:06
so it just sounded like you did a really run-on sentence. That's my fault. >> Hey, it's the intro. It's got to be a
00:01:11
run on. Uh, but first, did they even test this? >> I have a really fast one.
00:01:15
>> No one's on Pixel right now, right? So, none of you have experienced this. The
00:01:19
new flashlight. >> Hold on to greener pastures. >> Nah. >> Nah. Mine's greener. Mine's greener for
00:01:25
sure. You're yellowower. Um, the new flashlight quick setting is driving me insane. Um, this only happens in Google
00:01:33
quick settings and only if it is the two by the 2 by one tile width >> specific.
00:01:40
>> So, pressing the button, if you press just the little tiny circle of the
00:01:44
flashlight icon, it turns the flashlight on. But if you press the whole thing, >> the setting comes up, which is
00:01:49
flashlight strength, which I think is a good setting. >> And it turned on.
00:01:53
>> It turns it on. But then you press, you can either press turn off or done and it
00:01:57
stays on. I think the more specific uh adjustments should be the little button and the big button should just be
00:02:06
on and off. This every time I turn this on, I get a menu setting and I hate it. >> And I think you're saying if you want to
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be specific, that should be the smaller touch real estate. >> 100%. >> Okay.
00:02:17
>> No, that reminds me. >> Thank you. I wonder if anyone else is having everyone I've asked to test this
00:02:21
presses the little button and I'm like am I in >> I mean that's fair but regardless like a
00:02:25
bigger touch target should be the more common use >> the more general thing right okay thank
00:02:29
you >> reminds me of okay when on the dynamic island on the iPhone I think I said this
00:02:33
in the review uh >> are you back on the air >> I'm on the air uh I just I'm using
00:02:39
another camera phone with like an incredible camera so let me try to use the air
00:02:42
>> that was a fair question you sound a little offended by him I'm asking
00:02:45
>> no I mean I think that was a totally fair question >> this is the first time stuck to the Air
00:02:49
for more than two days. >> I want to try the Air, but I don't want to spend $1,000 to try the Air.
00:02:53
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh it's the only black phone they sell.
00:02:55
So >> Oh, fair. >> Uh so, uh the dynamic island when you're playing media, you can either long press
00:03:01
it, which brings up the little popup, or you can tap it, which brings up the whole app. I think I felt since the
00:03:07
beginning that that should be the other way around. I should tap it to show the controls, or I should long press it to
00:03:12
dive into the app. >> I Yeah, that sounds exactly the same. Yeah. Yeah. >> The the things that can happen
00:03:19
accidentally should be the less annoying things that happen. >> So like tapping both of those should
00:03:24
just be the really quick thing that happens where the in more intentional version of it should be the more
00:03:30
granular. >> Yeah. >> That kind of related to that. Uh you know how pulling down on the iPhone on
00:03:36
the left brings up like one menu setting and bringing down the one on the right brings out the the quick settings.
00:03:41
>> On the left is notifications on the right is quick settings. Yeah. >> Yeah. That's annoying because to get to
00:03:46
notifications is really hard, especially on the Macs. Like I can almost never do
00:03:50
it. Um, and it makes sense to want to get to quick settings like quicker, but I can almost never get to the
00:03:55
>> What do you think you go into more settings or notifications? >> Quick settings because if I want to do
00:04:00
notifications, I just lock my phone and then swipe up. >> Oh, interesting.
00:04:04
>> That's funny. That is faster. >> Yeah, that's actually my tick, you know?
00:04:07
>> Lock swipe up. >> Yeah. When I'm like anxious, I don't know what to do and I'm just like kind
00:04:10
of unlocking my phone, I'm like notification, notification. Your unlocked number must be crazy high after
00:04:15
they Yeah. >> Do they track that? >> They probably do. Oh, >> we should all look at
00:04:19
>> Your phone can track it. You can see it. Digital well-being or uh I forget what
00:04:24
it's called on iPhone. >> Is that on Android? >> It's called the same thing.
00:04:26
>> It's called the same thing. Digital >> digital uh Oh, on Oh, no. It's called
00:04:29
like screen screen time. Yes. >> Which, by the way, I looked at my screen time this week and it was not good. I
00:04:37
was monitoring the situation. >> Are you on iPhone? >> Yeah. Did you turn off joint device
00:04:42
screen time? Cuz by default it sums every device that's signed into your iCloud account. Oh, really?
00:04:48
>> Yeah. I used to be like, how do I have 18 hours of screen time? And then I
00:04:51
realized, oh, it has my entire workday of >> which I usually have my devices maybe.
00:04:57
>> And that doesn't actually track if you're looking at it. >> No. So if if you have like um Jolt of
00:05:02
Caffeine or something on like you can have 24 hours of screen time. >> Oh wow. Okay. But maybe they turn this
00:05:10
was like as of a year and a half ago. >> Yeah. Anyway, that was a good one.
00:05:14
Andrew, I I agree with you that the bigger touch target should be the more use. >> If I can quickly shut up be the
00:05:22
>> shut up. >> Just agreed with me. >> I feel like the reason why the more
00:05:29
complicated thing is the tap is because they measure time it takes to do something and that's what they're
00:05:36
optimizing for. I'll fully admit that the reason they did that is probably based on the literal statistics that
00:05:42
they have on the phone. I just think those stats are wrong. >> Yeah, but feelings don't care about your
00:05:47
facts, Andrew. >> Come on. All right, >> let's talk about >> Let's talk about
00:05:53
>> Hey, this week >> rockets >> NASA sent people around the moon.
00:05:59
>> I don't think I can name all the planets. >> Is the moon a planet, Andrew?
00:06:02
>> It's very specifically worded. There are so many interesting things about this
00:06:05
and I just figured we could just pop through some of the most fascinating ones. First of all, the Aremis 2 mission
00:06:11
is what it's called. These four astronauts went, they launched, they slungshot around Earth, they then flew a
00:06:20
quarter million miles to the moon, slungshot around the dark side of the moon, and then came back to Earth. And I
00:06:26
think by the time you listen to Friday, that's when they splashed down in the
00:06:28
ocean. So, like a week-long mission and about uh 45 minutes of that was spent behind the moon, which is the farthest
00:06:36
any humans have ever been from Earth. >> So cool. >> Um they took some incredible photos from
00:06:41
back there and they also sent them back to Earth for us to look at before they even got back here. And the photos are
00:06:47
incredible. >> They're so sick. >> And I have so many thoughts. Okay, first
00:06:50
thing we started seeing is uh this is one of the this is I guess the first mission where the astronauts were
00:06:54
allowed to bring personal devices into space, meaning their iPhones and Android phones. And so we did get images from
00:07:02
their smartphones as well sent back. >> And that's awesome. That's really
00:07:07
interesting. Probably some of the best moon photos any phone has ever taken cuz they're super close to it. We all like
00:07:12
to think we can take moon photos from our phone, but >> the Earth photo was the one
00:07:17
>> that was popping off on Twitter. >> Yes. which was very funny. >> They looked great. They uh they took
00:07:24
photos out the window of their space shuttle and you could see like Earth rise as they got further and further
00:07:30
from Earth. The Earth got smaller and smaller and then they got closer and closer to the moon and the moon got
00:07:34
bigger and bigger until they like slingshot around the moon. I had to Google this. They went within like 5,000
00:07:38
miles of the moon surface to do that gravity slingshot. So, they were really close. I mean, in the scale in the scale
00:07:46
scale of the universe of the universe, like they went 250,000 miles and then they got within 5,000 miles of the moon.
00:07:52
I think that's pretty cool. >> Compared to the biggest possible thing we can measure, they were pretty close.
00:07:56
>> Yeah, it was pretty it was pretty interesting. >> Yeah. >> Does anyone have any thoughts on the
00:07:59
shot on iPhone uh photos that we got from Artemis? I thought they were pretty cool.
00:08:03
>> I have some thoughts. >> I thought they might end up as a billboard pretty quickly.
00:08:08
>> Yeah. Some people had stakes against that. They were like, "Let it just let
00:08:12
it just happen organically." And >> it's fine if it's never a billboard, but
00:08:16
also missed opportunity from Samsung because Samsung got >> Well, I saw some funny memes cuz you
00:08:21
know the photos where they took the photo of the moon in the foreground and then Earth was in the background which
00:08:25
is like the opposite of what we usually see. >> There was a really funny meme where like
00:08:29
the moon was in the foreground and then the background was a moon. >> It's like shot on iPhone. I mean shot at
00:08:34
Samsung. >> Samsung. >> I was like >> I saw a bunch of those like if Samsung
00:08:38
took this. I saw people complaining like, "Wow, it's a real shame they didn't use a Samsung for this photo with
00:08:43
it zoom." It's like, you're in space. >> You're literally in front of the moon.
00:08:47
Why do you need >> You don't need the zoom. You're in space. This is literally the opposite.
00:08:51
Also, it was the iPhone selfie camera >> from the selfie camera. Yeah. I mean,
00:08:56
okay, I might get cancelled for this. >> Do it. >> But I >> Maybe not. I'm just kidding.
00:09:01
>> No, I I just don't think it's People are like, "Wow, it's insane that this is the
00:09:04
selfie camera." And I was like, "Well, yeah, you can." I thought it was cool
00:09:08
>> if you took Yeah, it is cool. But it's like Yeah, it's the selfie camera. I
00:09:11
mean, you can do >> photos with the selfie camera. Like, what's what's so insane about that?
00:09:17
>> I guess it's like I think more so is that this photo itself is incredible
00:09:21
because it's Earth and we just don't see it. It really has nothing to do with the
00:09:25
camera. Any phone could have basically taken that picture. >> It's just the perspective. It's not even
00:09:29
so much about the phone that's taking it. It's that we have all these like
00:09:33
when you open your phone camera roll and you see the photos you took and that's
00:09:37
your perspective from the last couple days and you know what a photo from your phone usually looks like.
00:09:42
>> It's just crazy to think that >> their camera roll they open it up and
00:09:46
it's a photo looking down on Earth from 250,000 miles away and like a a shot of
00:09:53
the moon which is somehow right next to them. Like that's just such a crazy thing to imagine
00:09:58
>> and it I it kind of I don't know humanizes it or like puts it into perspective for us to appreciate that
00:10:03
that's >> really how it looks to them sitting looking out that window.
00:10:07
>> Yeah. Pretty crazy stuff. >> It'll be funny in like 20 years when
00:10:10
they're scrolling really far back in their gallery one day and >> memories.
00:10:14
>> Oh yeah. This happened six years ago just like six years ago today. >> Yeah. What is the AI going to say? Like
00:10:21
it'll it'll show you your like lunch or your dog. going to be like you on the
00:10:25
moon. Does it know that they were on the moon? Like what is it going to say? >> You know how you can track your location
00:10:29
in Google Maps like going back all the way. >> I wonder what happens. >> Yeah. What is their find world would
00:10:34
have went crazy? >> Faga world is like where did you go? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What you have people's
00:10:40
pins on find my where do you think those pins went? >> Just off the grid literally.
00:10:45
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Can I do a little camera breakdown of all the cameras I used on this trip?
00:10:50
>> Okay. So, a lot of people were confused why they were using the Nikon D5, which
00:10:54
is a camera that came out in 2016, and uh I've been screaming about this for
00:10:59
years, and this is actually like finally starting to get better. So, the reason they use the Nikon D5 is because it has
00:11:04
very large pixel pitch. That's the size of the the pixel on the sensor. If you
00:11:08
have a bigger pixel pitch, you get more light per pixel, which means lower noise. And for space photography, that's
00:11:14
very important because most of the background is black. >> Yeah. Not a lot of light.
00:11:18
>> Yeah. So some people are asking why an issue with the Hasselblad. The Hasselblad is 100 megapixels.
00:11:23
>> But each one of those pixels is tiny. >> Very tiny. Yeah. Yeah. So 6.4 is very
00:11:28
big and like 10 years ago it was more common to have a bigger pixel. It's only
00:11:31
20 megapixel camera, you know, which is fine. Like that's still a lot of resolution for like if you want to use
00:11:36
as a desktop wallpaper or something like that. It looks very DSLR. They did also
00:11:41
use a Nikon Z9, which is Nikon's like flagship camera that's out right now.
00:11:46
That has a pixel pitch of 4.35 micrometers, so it's a little bit smaller. Still very good. 45.7
00:11:51
megapixels. Obviously, they're going to want to be able to zoom in on some of
00:11:54
these pictures. >> Yeah. >> They used a GoPro Hero 4 Black, which I saw some really cool photos of.
00:12:01
>> Make that an Instagram post. >> Yeah. In the Instagram post. >> Yep.
00:12:05
>> He's like seven or eight years old at this point. We're on Hero 11 or 12 or
00:12:10
something, I think. >> Yeah, I was kind of curious why they did that. It might have been a similar thing
00:12:14
with a bigger pixel pitch. I didn't actually look at what that pixel pitch was.
00:12:17
>> I think what happens is these programs take so many years to build that they're
00:12:22
not using typically state-of-the-art like when they build this this Artemis 2 thing. They're they're using the 2019
00:12:29
2020 cameras when they start building it. So even though there's newer cameras
00:12:33
available today, that's the stuff that they started with when >> seems like that would be the easiest
00:12:37
thing to just switch out though. You know, >> they're probably similar resolution, but
00:12:41
like computers and and dimensions and stuff, they just lock that stuff in. >> It's it's the same reason like the
00:12:46
software used to record the podcast, the stuff called Wild Tracks. And like we're
00:12:50
generally like six or seven versions behind the most recent version because like god forbid, you know, like we just
00:12:58
can't validate every single aspect of if we use one too many threads and it interacts with the lighting software
00:13:05
weird and it crashes and we lose an episode. I'd much rather miss a few features
00:13:09
>> and know it works. You know, >> don't test in production. >> And that's on a podcast. Like picture it
00:13:14
in space. >> There's no Best Buy in space. If anything, GoPro really should have done
00:13:21
the marketing campaign because they're like a tiny company. >> Way more up there.
00:13:25
>> I don't know if they're allowed yet. I saw someone say because NASA's like
00:13:30
government funded and everything like you would have to reach out to the individual astronaut and ask them for
00:13:35
their permission, but >> there was a lot of misinformation online. People were saying, "Oh, Apple
00:13:40
probably paid for and like no, there was there was actually confirmation that none of these companies paid
00:13:45
>> to have their devices." Wild to think that when you just look at like these
00:13:49
astronauts are from the US and what the US iPhone market share is, it's really
00:13:52
easy to deduce that they probably have an iPhone. By the way, everyone's like,
00:13:57
"Why Nikon? Why not Canon?" Nikon was the first ever camera in space. And the
00:14:02
reason that happened was because one of the astronauts just happened to be a photographer and he bought a Nikon like
00:14:07
before he went up into space and he just took some pictures. And that was before
00:14:10
that was before Hasselblad. That's before Hasselablad started making their um their custom Hasselablad cameras for
00:14:16
for space, which they left some of those cameras on the moon, which they should have just retrieved them because they've
00:14:21
been there since 1969 or whatever. >> Oh, the cameras are still on the moon.
00:14:25
>> Yeah, the cameras are still on the moon. They just took the film backs. Wow.
00:14:27
>> Because they did they needed as least the as little weight possible to be able
00:14:31
to get back >> space litter. >> We should go retrieve those. Next, we
00:14:35
Yes, we have the iPhone 17 Pro Max for the candid photos uh of the moon through the window, which I think was very sick.
00:14:42
>> Those are fun. They're just very sick. They're very cool. Yeah,
00:14:44
>> they had 80 to 400 mm lenses for close-up shots of the moon. Those shots
00:14:49
look insane. >> Yeah. I mean, we get the most detail we've ever seen of the moon.
00:14:54
>> I think my favorite shots are the ones that are wide angle through the window
00:14:57
of the of the spacecraft, so you can see like the window frame and then you see what they see outside the window frame.
00:15:02
Yeah, >> it it's like I it's hard to picture what it would be like to be on the
00:15:07
spacecraft, but those are the shots that help me best understand what they're
00:15:11
seeing. >> Yeah, >> it's crazy. >> Yeah. And then overall there were 28
00:15:14
cameras placed inside and outside uh the spacecraft, which is very cool. If you go to the NASA website, they're they've
00:15:19
been uploading all of these basically in real time. I mean, with a slight delay at the speed of light. Uh but they're
00:15:25
really cool. If you download the original images, you can get all the metadata for it. Um and these are very
00:15:30
good OLED wallpapers. And I don't think that they're going to be OLED, you know,
00:15:35
right as you download them. But if you take them into Photoshop and you lower the black point to zero, then they'll
00:15:39
become OLED. They look incredible. >> So yeah, I'm definitely planning on
00:15:42
using one of these as a wallpaper for sure. My favorite photo that I've linked
00:15:47
in the dock, which is the second link there. It's on Flickr. Uh is the eclipse
00:15:52
that they saw. So when they flew around to the dark side of the moon, there were
00:15:57
there's a brief moment where the sun was behind the moon and the side of the moon was being lit up by a
00:16:04
reflection of the earth. So they had the the rarest solar eclipse of all time. Nobody other than these four people have
00:16:10
ever seen this perspective of a solar eclipse. >> And they took a photo of the moon, which
00:16:14
is just this ball floating in space in front of them >> on a Z9. It's like a two- second
00:16:19
exposure. And it's just the trippiest. I can't believe it's a real photo. It's
00:16:23
insane. >> Yeah. >> Uh and then all the background. You see all these stars and planets lined up and
00:16:28
galaxies in the background behind them. Incredible wallpaper material. Uh one of
00:16:33
my favorite photos I've ever seen for sure. >> Yeah. No, it's it's absolutely great.
00:16:37
>> It's already the wallpaper on my phone. >> The glow in the back. It's awesome.
00:16:40
Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh one more thing that a lot of people were curious about, they did live stream
00:16:44
a lot of this. I remember watching the launch on NASA's YouTube channel on last
00:16:50
Wednesday. There was like 2.8 8 million concurrent viewers, which is pretty sick. What a lot of people don't know is
00:16:56
they kept streaming >> for a week and showing like the perspective of the astronauts as they
00:17:01
got closer to the moon and farther from the Earth. And uh you might be wondering
00:17:05
how they did that because there's no internet in space. >> Yeah. um they just were sending
00:17:10
information directly back to I think there's a series of three satellites on
00:17:14
Earth where at least one of them is always pointing towards the moon or one of them is always pointing towards the
00:17:20
spacecraft no matter where they were in orbit. So they were always able to send data back to Earth and that's how we
00:17:25
have you know this little super low res but effectively live stream of the astronauts and it's it's one light
00:17:31
second away top so it's not that much of a delay as they send that information.
00:17:34
So >> pretty cool. >> Pretty awesome. Crazy they could live stream this whole thing. Yet Netflix
00:17:39
constantly can't get Love is Blind reunion streamed properly on time. >> There's more demand for that, Andrew.
00:17:45
>> For Love is Blind. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I know. >> Yeah.
00:17:48
>> I think they'd get it right. >> Yeah. If you want to go see those
00:17:51
photos, download those pictures, go to the NASA website. We could link that in the show notes to make it easier.
00:17:56
Speaking of I really don't know how to make this transition. >> Things that don't exist.
00:18:00
>> Things that don't exist. Are you >> We can joke saying allegedly every time
00:18:06
you guys have talked about >> we can joke about that. >> I don't even want to put it in.
00:18:10
>> We will believe that this is real. >> No. No. Stop. Don't put it in.
00:18:15
>> Shoon is real. >> Come on. >> There is a moment There is There is a
00:18:19
thing happening on social media where there's way more conspiracy theory content. Yeah. Because I don't even know
00:18:24
how to talk about it. It's just like obviously bait and it's engagement bait,
00:18:29
but it's also like >> there's never been so much of it and it's never been so easy for dumb people
00:18:33
to see it and probably just jump right along and believe it or weird. >> Like you said, it's al it's like that
00:18:41
and rage bait where people want to feel smart by saying no, you're wrong and
00:18:45
stupid, which is engagement and makes that person money. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, don't engage. See the rage
00:18:51
bait. Just keep scrolling. >> Yeah. >> That's how you win, >> dude. This this question, what was the
00:18:56
first camera in space is so interesting because it begs the question, what is space? And also, what is a camera?
00:19:04
>> Yeah, >> this is so this is like bonus episode gold, right? >> Yeah, maybe we should do that. I know
00:19:09
that the NASA has been licensing or been using Nikon cameras since like 1971 or something.
00:19:15
>> 71. Yeah. >> Yeah, I knew that. >> There's some interesting officially.
00:19:18
>> There's some interesting stuff in here. >> Yeah. The original Moonrise photo was at
00:19:21
Hasselblood, right? Muselblad was the first camera that night that NASA was like, "We're going to work with a camera
00:19:27
company and make a space camera." John Glenn went to a drugstore and bought a
00:19:32
Minulta that he had modified by NASA to be able to hit with a space suit. But then
00:19:38
>> uh in ' 61, like a year a few months before that, a cosminot brought a 16
00:19:44
millimeter camera, like a Soviet 16mm camera, but then also seems like there were submissions with automated TV
00:19:50
cameras out like There's there's some interesting I think we should dive
00:19:54
deeper into this. >> So Hassablad made special versions of the Hassablad 500 series cameras that
00:19:59
basically are pump action because the astronauts wear space suits. When you the regular Hassabblad 500 CM has like a
00:20:06
small little shutter button that is like very hard to even with your regular finger it kind of like pricks your
00:20:11
finger a little bit. Not actually like through your finger, but it's like kind
00:20:14
of hard to use. Anyway, bad design. >> They made it a pump action and then
00:20:17
there's only three distance settings. There's close, medium, and far. Um I
00:20:22
they made a replica series 20 years later. They made a replica series of those cameras that they made a thousand
00:20:27
of u which I own one of them because I'm crazy. And uh they made these special
00:20:32
backs that could fit like way more film than most cameras. But um I should have brought that in. Maybe I'll bring it in
00:20:38
next week and I can show you guys. It's pretty cool. >> Sick. >> Speaking of did
00:20:42
>> really cool things. >> Yeah, I guess. I don't know. Yeah. >> Speaking of really cool things. better
00:20:46
than what I had. >> Rolls of something. >> Rolls of Good call. >> They weren't really rolls. They were
00:20:52
kind of >> We did get to see >> Zach from Jerry Everything do a tear
00:20:55
down of a phone that never shipped because it's LG's rollable phone. >> Uh fun fact, there's one in the mail
00:21:04
here now. >> What? >> Oh, like we got it. I know. It's on the way.
00:21:08
>> I have my sources. >> This is breaking news to us in the studio. >> Yeah, that's every week. That's every
00:21:14
week. >> Yeah. So, so LG died in 2021 is when they shut down their like smartphone
00:21:20
division. They stopped making phones. >> Yeah. 2021, I believe that's right. Um,
00:21:25
and so >> that's a that's like it's a crazy way to say you murdered them.
00:21:28
>> No, I was going to say the last two phones, actually, the last two phones that they
00:21:33
shipped before they died was the V60 and the LG Wing. And I had a lot of nice things to say about the LG Wing, as
00:21:40
insane as that phone was. Um, but here's the thing about phones like the LG Wing.
00:21:44
No one else would try that >> and that's why we love LG and that's why
00:21:48
they're dead. >> Yeah. >> So, look, they also had a phone in the
00:21:51
works that was like a rollable phone that went from a 5 and 1/2 in phone and then kind of unrolled motorized like a
00:21:58
parchment >> to an 8 in phone. >> Yeah. >> Uh, >> we could have had it all rolling in the
00:22:02
deep. >> Yeah, >> that's a Is that street light? >> Yeah. Anyway, yeah. So, Zack Zach got
00:22:13
his hands on one. We will as well soon. And he immediately did a tear down, which is so his style. And you can see
00:22:18
how overengineered this thing is. There's two motors. There's two motors.
00:22:21
There's this metal track inside. There's three spring-loaded arms. The whole
00:22:24
thing like like plays. It doesn't play sound. It makes noise as it opens. Like,
00:22:29
>> and since it makes so much noise, they play like a m like a musical chime to
00:22:34
sort of try to guess how loud that is. So, it's really it's it's quite a a
00:22:38
piece of engineering. uh just like the wing was. It's insane. And it never shipped. We don't know what they would
00:22:44
have charged for it, what they would have called it, how they would have marketed it. Uh but I do plan on like
00:22:48
trying to use it. I'm excited to get that. I um not seen the video, but I am
00:22:54
terrified at what that's going to be like when he takes the knife to the screen.
00:22:57
>> Oh, no. He doesn't do this. >> He didn't do it in that video.
00:23:00
>> Thank god. Yeah. >> Yeah. There's still time. He could do that.
00:23:03
>> But I suspect a phone like this would not be very durable. No, >> it would not hold water and dust out
00:23:08
very well. Yeah, >> it has the soft outer screen totally exposed all the time.
00:23:13
>> No, that's what was really cool about it is when it folds into the back, there's
00:23:18
a an exterior glass screen that it folds underneath on the back side and then so
00:23:23
on the back it's not the soft touch screen. I guess you're saying the front
00:23:26
of it is the soft touch all the time, but the back works when it's not unrolled as a back screen, which is
00:23:32
really cool. I actually like the way they engineered this thing was really impressive and probably would have been
00:23:38
better sense than the LG Wing. It kind of was like remember the Xiai concept that was like
00:23:45
>> we said like 200% screen to body ratio. Yeah. Yeah. It basically had a screen
00:23:50
covering 60% of the back of it because it rolled around the backside. Um but the internals are really cool the way
00:23:57
kind of those spring-loaded arms are actually pushing the whole battery and internal module with the screen. Yeah,
00:24:03
>> there's some cool stuff. Definitely go check out his video. But yeah, he
00:24:06
doesn't destroy it. He just actually uses it and takes it apart. It's >> the most careful I've ever seen Zach be.
00:24:12
He has a point where he's like, I am shaking open this right now. And it's
00:24:16
really funny to watch. >> That's not the type of vibe you want for a phone that you use.
00:24:20
>> It's like a relic. It's like you don't want to do any damage to it. I'm It'll
00:24:24
be interesting to see when we get it here if like using it in real life cuz you know the front screen is soft and
00:24:29
it's it's never really protected as you use the phone. So, it's it's there's no
00:24:32
way it's as durable as a regular phone. >> Yeah. No. >> But, you know,
00:24:35
>> I do like that sort of half screen on the back that he just uses to see like
00:24:39
his calendar and stuff like that. I think that that's pretty smart. >> Viewfinder for the camera.
00:24:43
>> Dang. I would I would buy this. >> It's cool. You should definitely go
00:24:46
watch that. And I'm excited to see this thing. >> Yeah. >> Speaking of alternate form factors
00:24:51
>> and never getting shipped. Well, I guess it was shipped, but >> Well, this might ship. This probably
00:24:55
will ship. iPhone Fold. Actually, this entire week there's been articles both
00:24:59
about how the folding iPhone is maybe delayed and not going to ship in 2026 and then maybe it's actually not so
00:25:07
delayed and it is going to ship in 2026. >> And both of those articles were posted
00:25:10
from the same website on the same day, >> which is why the only reason I added
00:25:14
this, I think it's so funny that Mac Rumors had an article called foldable iPhone engineering delays could push
00:25:19
launch to 2027 and also iPhone fold expected to launch on time in September despite delay rumors. So, is this what
00:25:25
hedging your bet looks like in real time? >> This is crazy. It's the nothing ever
00:25:29
happens theorem. >> Yeah, >> it basically both of these articles were
00:25:33
just two different sources saying what they think is going to happen. One's German, one's a Japanese newspaper, I
00:25:40
believe. Um, I cannot pronounce the name of the who wrote the article, but uh, the one thing I did find interesting in
00:25:49
terms of what they seem to agree on is >> while this is most likely going to be
00:25:54
announced at the same time as the iPhone 18, even if it's quote unquote on time,
00:25:58
it probably will not be delivered the same time as the iPhone 18. >> Uh, so I have no idea
00:26:04
>> if this is going to be 2026. I think we will see the announcement in 2026.
00:26:08
There's a chance this could be 2027. Yeah, it wouldn't be the first time
00:26:11
we've seen like a staggered release of the phones. I don't know if you remember
00:26:15
the mini and the plus when they came out, >> but that was only a month later.
00:26:19
>> It was only a month later. >> Wasn't the iPhone 10 also a little after
00:26:22
the true 10 was after and and mini and that was co that was like three though, wasn't it? It was like a couple there's
00:26:29
three different dates of >> I'm not going to remember the exact order, but it was something like the
00:26:33
Mini and the Pro Max came out after the regular and the Plus or something like like a month and a half later.
00:26:42
>> Uh, which was, you know, easier to make videos about cuz they were staggered and
00:26:46
separated. Actually, >> do we want to take bets on this? >> We already did.
00:26:50
>> Did we? >> Oh, >> we've definitely taken bets on if iPhone
00:26:53
Fold is coming out this year. Yeah, but we got new information. So, do you think
00:26:57
that it will be announced and then come out later, like in 2027, or do you think
00:27:02
it will be announced and come out in 2026? >> I would not be shocked at all if we got
00:27:06
this big fancy folding iPhone Ultra and they said coming early next year or coming September.
00:27:12
>> Maybe not early, maybe December or something like that. I could easily see
00:27:15
it being a staggered release to build some hype. >> That's a really stag How far away can it
00:27:20
be to still be considered a staggered release? Uh, typically when they release a new iPhone, it comes out like what,
00:27:26
two, three weeks later. >> Yeah. >> My take is that if you announce something and then you wait too long,
00:27:32
people stop caring. Google had this problem with the Pixel. Every time Google's launched a Pixel Fold, it's
00:27:37
come out a couple months later and people just forget. >> Also, every Sony phone
00:27:42
>> Sony Yeah. Sony freaking announces them in September and they always come out in
00:27:45
December and then no one buys it. Shocker, >> bro. That they were proud of that, too.
00:27:49
I remember I talked about like some of the Sony stuff. It was like 10 months later they come out with the phone and
00:27:55
then they finally made huge strides and they were like Marquez >> we came out with the phone only 3 months
00:28:00
after we announced it which is a big improvement but it's still way too long
00:28:05
wait just wait till it's done and ready to ship and then show it off and then
00:28:08
ship it anyway >> that every company that's ever but yeah uh I I think it would probably make
00:28:16
sense as like a month and a half staggered here comes the ultra type of I could see it.
00:28:22
>> I got a hot take. >> We're going to see this at Dubdub. >> See it? No shot. 0%.
00:28:27
>> I think there Well, no. Your whole showing it off like with folding iPhone
00:28:30
be like coming later this I think that's going to happen at Dub like we did with
00:28:34
the Vision Pro. >> Yeah. And then the phone itself will come out this year but later. That's
00:28:38
possible. >> I have a I have a I'm so torn on this. >> I love that take because I part of me is
00:28:43
like 0% no shot that happens. Dubdub is for development and is for software and any sort of hardware announcement
00:28:48
overshadows all the stuff they want to show like iOS 28. But on the other hand, the times that they do show new
00:28:56
hardware, it's specifically exciting to developers and things like the Mac Pro,
00:29:00
which people could get excited to develop on Vision Pro, which people could get excited to develop for.
00:29:06
>> Yeah. >> And folding phone. you know, if you're making apps, you kind of want to start
00:29:11
thinking about how to optimize your app for different screen sizes. So maybe it does make sense
00:29:16
>> unless unless they basically just make it so it's automatic and it basically
00:29:21
becomes an iPad. >> I mean that's the thing they they'll do for sure. That's going to be their
00:29:26
strength is like you add one line of code and now it's amaz like you can make
00:29:29
an iPad app by clicking one button basically. >> Yeah. >> But maybe you want to have some special,
00:29:34
you know, animation for the unfolding or something. I don't know. I think it
00:29:38
makes sense like that. I just think dubdubdub this year is going to be too much worrying about having to renounce
00:29:43
Siri. I don't think they're going to do it. I think to cover that up. >> Yeah, it'll be like look at the
00:29:49
excitement of the folding phone. Forget about liquid ass. >> But that's going to look so bad if it's
00:29:54
like we have to reounce the thing that's 2 years late and here's a thing that
00:29:58
might be late again. >> I think they could spin it cuz you know what started to happen?
00:30:01
>> Pretend anything's going to happen. Well, the thing that I' the take I've
00:30:04
seen more and more online is that Apple being late to AI has actually been the best version of AI, which is, you know,
00:30:13
all these phones are just shoving AI down our throats and Apple's kind of not
00:30:17
doing that so much. And that's refreshing. >> We appreciate it. >> It's also because they stick to what
00:30:22
they're good at, which is good hardware. >> It's also because Apple didn't really
00:30:25
spend billions of dollars investing in this kind of stuff. And now that AI is becoming so commodified, they kind of
00:30:31
have like their pick of the litter on what they want to utilize, right? So they they picked Gemini because they had
00:30:35
all these options. >> They didn't have all those options when chat GBT in the iPhone got announced.
00:30:40
That was like kind of the only thing that they could do and now it's like this awkward like middle child that's
00:30:45
like in the iPhone in a weird way and they're probably going to get rid of that. And
00:30:48
>> yeah, >> it's nice that they can do it, but it's also really funny knowing that they
00:30:53
tried and that was not the original plan and that they failed. But they failed upwards.
00:30:57
>> Yeah, they got very lucky on that. >> They're going to fail fail upwards.
00:31:00
>> And their stock is the only one that has not been impacted by AI stuff.
00:31:05
>> Yeah. You think of Apple as this huge tech company and if AI is the next big
00:31:08
huge tech, then they must be a player in that space, but they're not a player in
00:31:14
every space. They don't make everything. So, you know, search engine they don't
00:31:19
make. They, you know, borrow the best one and show it to their users as a default. And maybe it's not released.
00:31:26
>> Well, yeah, exactly. They don't they're not a public competitor in that space.
00:31:30
>> And I think that that's kind of ending up true of AI where okay, there's all
00:31:35
these models, there's all these advanced development. They tried to jump in, it
00:31:38
didn't really work, but they still their bread and butter is still the device
00:31:42
that you use to do the AI stuff on. People are clamoring to buy Mac Studios that finally have enough VRAM. If you
00:31:48
could tether three of them together with Thunderbolt, you can have a machine that
00:31:50
runs OpenClaw and everything's local. Like that's people are buying Apple
00:31:54
hardware still >> and that's probably going to continue to be true. >> Yeah. And I think ultimately they're
00:32:00
realizing that people use different AIs for different use cases and so they just
00:32:05
want to be the the main thing that runs the thing. They don't want to be choosing what you use with it. Like
00:32:10
Apple intelligence at the end of the day is just an extension of things that the
00:32:14
phone could basically already do. And so that doesn't need to be the thing that
00:32:18
does everything. like you're going to use cloud on your phone, you're going to
00:32:21
use Gemini on your phone, you're going to use OpenAI, Chap GBT on your phone if
00:32:24
that's the service that you use. >> Yeah. >> And so, you know, Google obviously has
00:32:28
both and makes it, but at the end of the day, that could be a negative for them because if Google's trying to force you
00:32:34
to use Gemini and it things work better with Gemini than they do with say Claude
00:32:37
and you're like a Claude power user, you might be more incentivized to use the
00:32:42
iPhone that gives you more of a choice to use what AI you want to use. >> Yeah. So
00:32:47
>> there is no world in which that happens. >> There's no way that Google the open one
00:32:53
would be more closed down with which >> I'm not saying it would be closed but
00:32:57
but like Gemini is so embedded in Android. >> That's on like Gemini will always have
00:33:03
its uh >> Yeah. And Android's high and its inherent like abilities to do more, but
00:33:10
they're not going to actively make you not use Gemini. >> No, I know that. But it would be
00:33:15
annoying if you're doing various things on your phone and it's prompting you to
00:33:19
use Gemini. It's actively trying to move you towards a Gemini subscription. >> Yeah, but I could just like right now I
00:33:25
could just change it to Claude like in the settings. >> Change what to cla
00:33:29
>> my my assistant. >> I think that that's probably what people are going to want from their phone is
00:33:33
the well integrated thing, which is why it felt like it made sense for Apple Intelligence to be really good because
00:33:38
that's going to be the one that works the best across all these Apple surfaces. It's going to pull my messages
00:33:43
and it's going to pull my Google my calendar from Apple calendar and all these other Apple things. So, I want the
00:33:48
Apple intelligence AI to be good on my Apple device and of course Gemini will be good across all these Google services
00:33:55
pull from my Google Drive, Google Photos, Google whatever. >> So, that's what we were hoping for from
00:34:01
Apple intelligence, but now they're just kind of giving us the choice of other
00:34:04
ones that don't really talk to Apple stuff. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
00:34:07
>> I'm not a businessman. I don't know how money works. >> I'm a businessman. However, I've always
00:34:13
understood Google's whole business model to be we're going to either sell our
00:34:18
hardware at a loss or with the slimmest possible margin we can do. >> Because you're going to use all these
00:34:25
Google services and we can harvest your data. >> Yeah. >> And so I kind of agree with David. I see
00:34:30
going forward Google's going to be like you're using Gemini because if someone
00:34:34
buys a pixel and then uses Claude, they're losing money on that. >> That's an L for Google.
00:34:39
>> You bought the pixel. Yeah. Google. That's an Yeah, I'm saying Google all of a sudden
00:34:45
is not making like they're still harvesting all your data because they're
00:34:48
using a pixel, but they need the Gemini data, I think, to really make it worth it.
00:34:52
>> I think my thing is that no AI is making money anyway. Google can just burn money
00:34:57
because they own the internet. No, but Google will make money by getting trained training data off of your Gemini
00:35:04
chats and then also using the data they get from you via your Gemini chats to make your ads more targeted.
00:35:10
>> But they're getting that data already from the iPhone which is giving them a
00:35:13
billion dollars on top of that. I think they need 3% of Pixel users to use Gemini. They're going to let you use
00:35:19
Anthropic. >> Guys, I think I might have just gotten clapped back. >> But what I'm saying but what I'm saying
00:35:23
is like Google is always going to be pushing you towards Gemini, right? because all of their services, all of
00:35:29
the things on the phone, like it's so embedded into the phone >> that it's easier to use Gemini. And so
00:35:34
if you're like a Claude super user, you might be kind of annoyed that like now
00:35:38
half of my contact is in Gemini and the other half is in Claude. >> And whether or not that ends up being a
00:35:43
thing that incentivizes people to buy an iPhone, it probably won't be. But it's
00:35:47
just kind of an interesting interaction because of the way that AI has become commodified. Well, more so my thing my
00:35:52
point was I don't think there's a world where Apple is more open with that kind
00:35:57
of thing with sharing the context between different AIs than Google. >> I kind of disagree
00:36:01
>> specifically because Apple has the servers that they're making with Google
00:36:06
in partnership. Like Anthropic has servers from AWS, they have servers from Azure. They have servers everywhere.
00:36:11
Apple is not going to let your data go to some random server. They want control of the server which they have a
00:36:15
partnership with Google. >> Yeah. like the things that happen like autonomously with the phone are
00:36:19
obviously like through Apple, through Google, through those servers that are, you know, nothing touches it. I just
00:36:25
think they care less about what AI that you use versus Google really really wants you to use Gemini and the market
00:36:30
incentives will probably push them towards making Gemini the the choice they want you to. You know,
00:36:36
>> I think you both have really really valid points in the sense that I still
00:36:39
>> I really see where you're coming from where it's like Google doesn't have as
00:36:42
much of an incentive to lock you into Gemini as I thought they might have at the outset of this conversation.
00:36:48
>> But also, I do think Apple's opinion on this matter would change a lot more than
00:36:53
Google's when you're talking about just like a normal generative transformer
00:36:57
versus something agentic that's like monkeying around in your phone. >> For sure. Yeah. I think there's also
00:37:02
probably a world where a lot of people at Google believe that if you do use >> I'm sorry, Andrew's face.
00:37:09
>> No, my pixel makes me want to never touch Gemini. >> Please, I'm sorry to interrupt you. Go
00:37:14
ahead. >> The look on Andrew's face was >> I guess I think that there's probably a
00:37:17
lot of people at Google who believe that they want you to use Gemini because that
00:37:21
represents like the next stage of all the data harvesting that they do. And if you start using a different AI and start
00:37:28
doing all these searches and all these queries and all this stuff, that represents a bunch of data that they're
00:37:32
not getting%. >> And so if they're if they're allowing people to move on from Gemini to a bunch
00:37:39
of other stuff and then they slowly get less and less data from the old ways of gathering data, then they missed jumping
00:37:44
the boat. >> Yeah. I mean, think about this. They're basically transitioning from Google
00:37:47
search being their primary revenue driver to Gemini. So, if they're not getting as if they don't have as many
00:37:53
Gemini users, that's like a huge impact for them. >> That's what I That's why
00:37:57
>> I'm just I'm trying to envision a world where I can go into the iPhone settings
00:38:01
and change Siri to Claude versus going into the Pixel settings and changing Gemini to Anthropic, like to Claude. And
00:38:08
I'm trying to think which one is more likely to happen >> really >> because just because of who's a player
00:38:14
in the game, I think like the way you can choose your search engine now on the iPhone, you could just move it from
00:38:18
Google to whatever you want. uh is the same because they don't make their own search engine. I think when
00:38:23
there is a claude, an anthropic and a GPT and a Gemini, you can do that on the iPhone and pick your model as well
00:38:29
because they don't have a competitor in that space. >> But but not to just regurgitate Adam's
00:38:33
earlier point, but like I totally think that's the case with a chat. However, if
00:38:38
everyone's trying to get these agentic models that can actually do stuff inside
00:38:43
your phone, I have it seems to me like a more uphill thing getting Apple to let an agent run on someone else's servers.
00:38:51
And I I can't believe Apple would want us want to set up their own data centers
00:38:57
to run agentic other people's agentic models. The agentic stuff is probably going to be a local Gemini Nano model,
00:39:04
which is different from the things that are hitting the servers. >> Yeah, but that sucks. I want I want I
00:39:08
want local claude. I want local. >> Yeah. And I don't think that Apple is
00:39:13
going to allow multiple different models for that because they want the user experience to be unique and the same
00:39:19
across all devices. I could see Apple eventually working with Anthropic and OpenAI for the stuff, the AI stuff that
00:39:27
happens in the cloud because then they're creating a marketplace where they can reduce the cost that they're
00:39:32
paying to those model providers and also it gives people the option to, you know,
00:39:37
use whatever commodity that they use. >> Hear me out. We do a bonus episode.
00:39:41
>> This feels like a Sorry. This is like a whole episode. We get Tim Cook, we get
00:39:46
Sundar, we get Sam, >> and we just go, who was right? Tell us who was right. Which one of us was
00:39:51
right? Was it me? >> I want to do a cage match. >> This was not supposed to go on this
00:39:55
long. >> We were talking about the iPhone 4. >> Well, no, but it's an interesting is an
00:39:58
interesting question and it's one that we will get the answer to, I think, >> in a couple months.
00:40:02
>> In pretty soon. Yeah. So, uh and then we'll find out who was right.
00:40:07
>> Yeah. Okay. And >> you see that up by the moon? That's the rails. We are so far off the rails. Wow.
00:40:12
>> I was going to add my one thing about AI phones, which is my Pixel. I I came
00:40:18
across this thing the other day where I was like, "My Google Home, my like Nest
00:40:23
doorbell isn't giving me notifications anymore. What broke on this?" And I
00:40:27
realized I turned it off because I was getting so annoyed at I changed my Google Home camera stuff for the
00:40:33
notifications to like it says you can use AI to search through activities that happened. But what it really does is not
00:40:40
just that, but every time it sends a notification, it's this like really long
00:40:44
terrible sentence about what may have happened. And I got so annoyed at the notifications of
00:40:50
>> like >> a person >> walks up from a delivery to the thing just like I just want to see there's a
00:40:55
person at the door. That's all you have to tell me. And having 30 of those notifications. I guess I got so mad I
00:41:01
turned it off one day and forgot and then realized a month later >> and there aren't like granular settings
00:41:05
to >> there might be something in there now. I just wanted it to be able to search like
00:41:11
did somebody drop something off between two and four >> and that should work. that I think it
00:41:16
>> part works >> but the notification notifications verbose and it's in it's so bad and it
00:41:22
also even though >> all of my family's faces are attached in there >> it correctly identifies the person one
00:41:29
out of 40 times >> despite almost looking directly at the camera like face scanning it
00:41:36
>> mine's pretty good I I remember the day I started getting the new notifications
00:41:39
cuz it would always just be like person person movement person. Now it's like a UPS
00:41:46
driver dropped off a medium-sized box at the door and I'm like I >> But then you click that and it's like
00:41:53
Claire coming home with groceries. >> It might have been I would say mine have
00:41:58
been like 90% way too accurate and then 10% totally off. >> Oh, mine's 90% totally weird.
00:42:06
>> While we're talking about Ring, shout out to the new Ben Jordan. Another
00:42:10
absolute banger. It's terrifying. >> Surveillance. I just like to say hi to
00:42:14
everyone watching me when I >> Yeah. All right. Well, um, that went quite a while. Can someone transition?
00:42:21
>> Samsung Messages is getting shut down. >> Yeah. Okay. Thanks. >> I mean,
00:42:23
>> yeah, >> it actually is a good segue because that segue was as abrupt as Samsung shutting
00:42:29
down Samsung messages cuz they're basically like, yo, peace, this gone July.
00:42:34
>> That's kind of a segue within a segue. What is Samsung messages? >> So, maybe like a decade ago.
00:42:42
No, this is not I'll make it short. I'll make it sure. >> No, no, no. Yeah.
00:42:45
>> Samsung used to ship their own messages app and you know, every, you know, you
00:42:49
bought a Samsung phone and there'd be Samsung messages and have its own chime
00:42:52
and have it own layout. It was just exactly like Google Messages or whatever. And I would always actually go
00:42:56
to the Play Store and download Google Messages cuz I liked it better. And then one day, maybe five, six years ago, I'm
00:43:01
not sure exactly when, six or seven, >> they six, seven years ago, they started
00:43:05
just shipping Samsung phones with Google Messages by default. Like they stopped shipping it with Samsung messages. they
00:43:11
still supported it and it still existed, but they just accepted that people just
00:43:15
use Google messages when they buy an Android phone. Uh, and now it's a couple
00:43:19
years later and they're like, "All right, we're not going to keep supporting Samsung Messages." So,
00:43:23
whatever servers, whatever service there was, it's gone. If you still actually
00:43:27
use Samsung Messages, >> be very careful. >> Yeah, >> the thread on the Samsung subreddit is
00:43:33
>> very upset. Well, if I'm on the Samsung subreddit, I probably am more likely to
00:43:36
be a user of of Samsung messages. >> That's crazy. Two month heads up. That's
00:43:41
why pretty fast. >> What happens when it >> EOLS? >> Uh I assume you can't send messages
00:43:48
using the app anymore. >> That would be insane. >> Um it's got to be.
00:43:52
>> It should just update and auto download Google messages and replace it.
00:43:55
>> I mean, that's essentially what you're going to want to do at this point.
00:43:58
>> Yeah, but it's crazy that they're making people do that manually.
00:44:01
Well, I think they accepted that this would happen at some point, like 5 years ago when they stopped shipping it as a
00:44:06
default on their devices, but they should have given people a heads up way, way long ago when they stopped shipping
00:44:11
as a default that, hey, we're going to shut this down at some point. They probably just didn't know they were
00:44:15
going to do it. Now, they just decided they're doing it and they're doing it in
00:44:18
two months. So, >> yeah. Samsung, I doubt he's going to know to update before June or July, you
00:44:24
know. >> But is it update or is it also have to download Google Messages? That's a great
00:44:28
question. I didn't understand what you're Yeah. For the people who don't
00:44:32
know, not everyone's going to see this thing. Are they just going to 3 days later be like, "I haven't had a text in
00:44:37
a little while." >> Guys, don't worry. It's totally okay. Everyone knows Android users notoriously
00:44:42
awesome at keeping their phones up to date. Okay. Literally the best user base for hitting the update button. They're
00:44:47
going to be fine. Yeah. >> The Verge says 2024 is when they started shipping as a default, Google Messages.
00:44:53
I feel like it was way >> possible. Well, they did it because of RCS. They were trying to like really
00:44:57
force people onto Google Messages because for a while Google Messages and weirdly like Verizon messages were the
00:45:02
only app that supported RCS, right? And then they had that weird bromance with Google for a long time that sort of is
00:45:09
still in action but not as much anymore. >> Yeah. I don't know. It's strange.
00:45:14
>> Can I rant about the time? Sorry, quick tangent. I like it cuz it has to do with
00:45:18
>> First is going to be 57 minutes. The next >> I got ratioed so hard on threads. Oh
00:45:26
yeah. What did you do? What did you do? Because I posted a screenshot of Google messages on a Samsung device and I
00:45:34
circled the whole top half of the screen just says Google messages like the logo
00:45:38
>> and I'm like why is this here? >> Yeah, I agree with you. >> That's so like half of the screen is
00:45:43
just unusable information. >> Why would you get ratio for that? >> Everyone was like bro just scroll. And
00:45:48
I'm like I know how apps work. I'm saying why isn't there information here?
00:45:52
>> Wait, there was a moment where everyone applauded that white space. They're
00:45:55
like, "Wow, how thoughtful. I can reach my whatever." >> So that's the whole point. Yeah, that's
00:45:59
why I'm getting ratio because one UI is like for one-handedness. And it's like,
00:46:02
yeah, I know. I'm saying it's stupid because if you go to like Samsung phone
00:46:06
app, they make use of that space. It's not things that you can tap or whatever,
00:46:10
but it'll tell you like you have a missed call, you have like useful information.
00:46:14
>> Why don't I have that in other places? >> I have a question for you. I because I
00:46:16
haven't used Google Messages in a while. If you >> Okay. >> If you can you pin message threads or
00:46:22
messages? >> You can. And it's it stays in the middle. It doesn't pin to the top the
00:46:26
way it does on on Apple. >> Adam's just saying it should be usable space. I think that's totally fair.
00:46:30
>> Or not even you like Well, yeah, I guess usable, but like tell me some sort of
00:46:34
useful information. >> You don't want me to click it. >> I would be happy with that. Just show
00:46:39
the clock. It's going to be ads one day. >> Next topic. >> Don't give them those ideas.
00:46:45
>> It's just going to be a giant Gemini button at some point. >> Yeah.
00:46:48
>> Samsung Messages shutting down. Less choice sucks. We're going to leave a
00:46:52
little pause here for all the people who are about to type. Just use WhatsApp. Go
00:46:56
on, do it. I don't want you to miss any more of the episode. Got it. Almost a
00:47:01
little angrier. Perfect. >> Less Choice does suck, but I would never be sad to
00:47:08
see Verizon Messages Plus implode. That's all I'm going to say. >> That's a good take. Fair.
00:47:15
>> That's a good take. >> Yeah. All right. Well, we should take a
00:47:18
quick break. We have talked for a quite a while about a bunch of things and now we should do trivia.
00:47:24
>> The next one is going to be a nice simple little section. >> Well, it can be simple for the beginning
00:47:28
of the >> I'm just kidding. It literally says debate. There's no >> It's not related to it. I think we're
00:47:34
all on the same page. >> We are not. >> Oh, >> I know. None. Yeah.
00:47:37
>> Good to know that. >> Trivia. Little bit of foreshadowing after the break. We're going to talk
00:47:43
about what is in my opinion the craziest tech news story of the year. Assuming no
00:47:47
one's lying. Anthropics project glasswing. Um, but the question is where does the term glasswing come from?
00:47:56
And it's multiple choice. A. Glass wing is an experimental F1 rear wing design
00:48:02
from the ground effect era of cars. B. A glass wing is a Central American butterfly with transparent wings. C. A
00:48:11
glass wing is a type of parachute used by first responders to jump into dense forest canopies. or D, it's an acronym,
00:48:20
general layer analysis screening with integrated neural GPTs. GPT standing for generative pre-trained transformered
00:48:28
nested nested acronyms. >> Okay, that is uh I definitely wouldn't have gotten that without the multiple
00:48:36
choice. I still might not get it, but we'll think about that. Answers will be
00:48:40
at the end like usual. We'll be right back. >> I don't think I want my parachute to be
00:48:43
called a glass wing. Support for the show comes from Framer. So, the reason you create a website is so that
00:48:57
your business can thrive. But some websites just don't look the part. Framer can help with that. Framer is the
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00:49:49
right, welcome back. Got a little debate for y'all. So, David Pierce wrote an
00:49:54
article on The Verge this week called vertical browser tabs are better and you should use them about how Chrome finally
00:49:59
added vertical tabs Yep. >> to their browser. Um, and then listed out some of the reasons why you should
00:50:04
use them. So, I know a lot of us on this podcast have very strong opinions about
00:50:08
vertical tabs. So, I thought the best thing to do is to talk about how we like them or don't like them, list some of
00:50:14
the reasons David Pierce laid out, and in true podcast fashion, we can debate him in a situation where he can't defend
00:50:20
himself. >> Yeah, that's cool. >> Yeah. Okay. >> So, he's very provertical tabs.
00:50:24
>> David, on the next on the next Vergecast episode, you will respond. >> This is how we This is how we start
00:50:30
YouTube drama. You got to make response videos to each other. >> That's actually valid.
00:50:34
>> And we haven't done this yet, so it's time. >> I think >> it's time.
00:50:36
>> Let's all start. I think you two are provertical tabs, right? >> Uh here's my browser right here.
00:50:41
Vertical tabs on the side. Yeah. >> You think I'm provertical tabs? This
00:50:45
should be common knowledge. >> Um yeah, >> it's also 75% of why I started using
00:50:50
Arc. >> Yeah, Arc. I mean, in the episode where I where I talked about Arc for the first
00:50:54
time, I explained it so horribly, but the only thing where I was like, "This
00:50:58
is amazing." was vertical tabs. >> What about you two? >> Vertical tabs all day.
00:51:02
>> Oh, yeah. Thank you. >> Yeah. Horizontal tabs. horizontal tabs all day.
00:51:07
>> Interesting. >> And is this because you haven't tried or you dislike vertical?
00:51:13
>> His screen is square. So >> that's actually very important for this.
00:51:17
>> Very better though. >> My my when I'm a browsing um I'm one of
00:51:22
those people who is like stuck in the year 2011 and I use uh command and one through nine to go
00:51:30
through my tabs. So >> you memorize which tab is in which >> number. It's not really like a I mean I
00:51:36
guess then you make it sound like it's a big mental task. >> Sounds like one. That's how you switch
00:51:41
between tabs, but you still have all of your tabs up at the top of your browser.
00:51:44
>> Yeah, but the buttons are horizontal. >> Oh. Oh, interesting. I see.
00:51:48
>> Oh, so maybe there's a little mental uh alignment. >> No, it's just wrong the other way. Like
00:51:53
like Sorry, >> that's valid. That's what you're saying. >> I'm pro horizontal tabs with this.
00:51:57
>> Pro horizontal. And does that mean you're anti-vertical? >> Oh, yeah.
00:52:00
>> I would. I'd be down with like a grid of tabs and then I could use the numpad
00:52:05
>> for that. But they need to be they need to be in the same shape. Like a 3x3 grid
00:52:09
of tabs. >> Do you have a numpad? >> Yeah, on all my computers. Probably
00:52:13
requires you to have a num tab. >> Uh >> uh I use my laptop almost exclusively in
00:52:19
dock mode with a keyboard with >> and like 400 peripherals. >> Yeah. Yeah.
00:52:25
>> I'm out of uh I'm sorry. I'm out of USB ports on every single setup I have. Uh,
00:52:30
which is hilarious cuz I have a Cal Digit TS5. Like it's just Anyway, >> everything.
00:52:35
>> Yeah, I like I like horizontal tabs, but I'm also a Safari user. >> Yeah, that's crazy.
00:52:39
>> So, I don't know if my opinions are super valid. >> That's crazy. I I
00:52:44
>> It's crazy that you're you use Safari because if you if you're docked all the
00:52:49
time, the battery life doesn't really matter. And Safari is only good for one
00:52:52
thing, which is battery life. >> That's not >> I like the icon, not going to lie.
00:52:57
Unfortunately, >> commonly accepted facts. >> Commonly accepted. >> Accepted by who? Lunatics.
00:53:02
>> I would say ask any browser enthusiast. >> This is not what this conversation was.
00:53:07
>> What are we debating? >> Attacking Ellis. >> Reason Safari is goated. It's okay. One,
00:53:12
I'm on an Apple silicon laptop. Battery life is going to be legit no matter what
00:53:16
or where I'm going. >> No. No, it's not. >> I'm like I'm a super turbo power user. I
00:53:23
can at least get like 4 hours of battery life minimum. between Chrome and Safari in regular
00:53:29
browsing for several hours is shockingly high. >> Huge is this laptop lasts is is terrifyingly
00:53:38
longlasting battery on Safari is average at best with Chrome. >> Wait, so so why are we hating on Safari
00:53:44
then? >> I am. So you're saying you use a docked so that the performance and efficiency
00:53:48
battery gains that you get are effectively not important at all. >> The No, the performance is super
00:53:54
important. performance is great. >> I like having RAM computer >> valid. And I think there's there's a
00:54:00
little bit more of a obviously people depends on how much RAM you have where this argument becomes more important.
00:54:05
But the like how long it takes to open the browser. I notice Safari is faster and then once I'm into browsing I notice
00:54:11
effectively no difference >> and the battery life is the main thing that I would use Safari for.
00:54:16
>> Interesting. My thinking is one I do a lot of RAM heavy tasks all the time. I
00:54:21
really like having as much RAM free as possible at any given moment. Love that. >> Two, I'm a little bit of a security
00:54:27
freak. Like over the past few months, I've become like way way way more freakish about my data and I love
00:54:34
Private Relay. Like I I see private relay like securing me all the time now. >> Um
00:54:41
>> and then I guess I don't really use like browser extensions very much.
00:54:46
very often that I see a browser extension I need to use, but I have yet to find a
00:54:57
single browser extension that I'm like I'm so this is so essential to my life
00:55:02
that I'd be willing to use 60 GB of RAM. Do you >> use the Claude and Chrome extension?
00:55:07
>> I do. That's the only time I open Chrome. So, I'll be do be doing all my
00:55:11
stuff in Safari and then I'll have a Chrome window open that Claude is controlling.
00:55:14
>> If I can make an analogy, when I first got Andrew to use a tasks app >> and there were like 75 options and you
00:55:20
were like, I'll just try Google Tasks first >> and I was like, okay, that's it's a good
00:55:25
like it's the default one. There's no advanced features or no plugins or
00:55:28
anything crazy like that, but it is gets you in the door. That is Safari, I think.
00:55:33
>> Yeah. As soon as you find like two or three features that are not available in
00:55:36
tasks that you start to lean on, it's the same thing as finding two or three
00:55:41
extensions in the browser or two or three UI features in the browser that you start to lean on and then you're
00:55:45
like Safari is so far behind. It doesn't have it has extensions, but like the
00:55:49
amount of UI fun and trickery and elegance and interesting things happening in I mean Arc is obviously the
00:55:56
one we talk about a lot, but so many other browsers, they're just not in Safari.
00:55:59
>> Yo, I really I really want to talk about tabs. I don't want to miss.
00:56:02
>> Do you know what features really stupid to lean on? Vertical tabs. >> Okay, let's talk about vertical tabs.
00:56:07
>> You can literally lean on them because they're vertical like a wall. You can't
00:56:10
learn on something. You can't lean on the ground. That's horizontal. >> All right. Your your monitor is
00:56:14
widescreen. This is this is the default, right? Your monitor's widescreen. When
00:56:18
you have a bunch of tabs at the top, it's cramming them all into the top and
00:56:21
you can't see anything. Put them over to the side. You can have as many tabs as
00:56:25
you want. You'll never run out of room. You don't run out of vertical real
00:56:28
estate because your tabs are only a slot. So just horizontal tabs just make sense for a vertical browsing experience
00:56:35
on a widescreen monitor. >> Agreed. >> Agreed. >> All right. >> Agreed in that scenario. But
00:56:40
>> okay scenario. >> Well, okay. There's more scenarios in this one.
00:56:44
>> Do you guys use your Mac doc on the side? >> Mac, it's at the bottom. What's a Mac?
00:56:49
>> Actually, on my desktop. >> It's on the side. >> I don't use on the side.
00:56:53
>> That's crazy. >> Why would Why not? If it's widescreen and it's vertical side,
00:56:58
>> I don't really use my dock. >> I see what you're doing. Why don't you
00:57:01
do it on the side? >> I see what you're doing. >> Yeah, I just It's the exact same thing.
00:57:05
But unfort I think Marquez might win this one because I >> Well, because he does use it. Adam uses
00:57:10
it on the side also. >> What? >> No, no, no. I used to use it on the
00:57:12
side, too. But the the icons are square and so it's it doesn't matter what
00:57:16
direction, whereas writing is horizontal. So, you could >> No, no, but we're talking about width of
00:57:20
screen real estate and that a general web page is vertical. This is something David Pierce says also. He says precious
00:57:26
vertical pixels. >> Virtually every modern computer display is widescreen. Most web pages are taller
00:57:31
than they are wide. So if you're reading in a thing, you don't need the width of
00:57:34
space. >> I don't I don't agree with that. I think that I think the idea is that like if
00:57:38
you have something that is larger in the vert in the horizontal dimension, then you'd want to stack it vertically
00:57:44
because you lose less information per instance. >> I think it's even simpler. It's I have
00:57:49
more horizontal pixels, so I will waste more of them on tabs. I have less vertical pixels, so I want to scroll
00:57:54
less by having less things wasting my vertical pixels. >> Something you guys are disregarding is
00:57:58
the magical ability to hide your tabs. Arc, >> this is my goated Arc setup.
00:58:03
>> Hidden tabs. >> Yeah, you swipe you you Okay. The the active page, you swipe over and then
00:58:09
your tabs come out. >> There's something so funny about you not doing that with your doc. What do you
00:58:13
say? You don't use your dock. >> Well, I don't really use my dock. You
00:58:15
can hide. >> Exact. So, you should hide your dock. >> Yeah, I should. I never thought about
00:58:19
that. You should definitely hide your doc. >> But okay, this is the goated arc setup.
00:58:24
You have two windows. Arc does have a feature where you can have like two, it's one window, but you have two
00:58:28
separate pages. But that's lame. >> Can I pause you right there really fast?
00:58:32
Okay, >> cuz that's what I wanted to say. Everyone's talking about width of screen
00:58:34
real estate. I put two windows up. So now, >> yeah. >> Yeah. I don't have that much screen real
00:58:40
estate. Now in two windows, if you're not doing his go to dark setup, if you
00:58:44
have two windows with vertical tabs, now you're taking up so much space. vertically and you have this huge buffer
00:58:51
in between your very specific scenario. >> Come on. Most people hide the tabs in
00:58:55
Arc >> in Arc. But he's this whole article is about Chrome. >> Yeah, because Chrome sucks.
00:59:00
>> Thank you. >> I think by default >> you don't hide your tabs, right?
00:59:05
>> No, I don't. >> So, if you have two browser windows, sorry, I feel like I'm interrupting a
00:59:09
lot here, but I want to I don't want to miss specific things we're talking
00:59:12
about. Yeah. Um, if you have two browsers open side by side, so now it's >> tabs, article, tabs, article, and it's
00:59:21
all like, yeah, that's a I do that sometimes. You do that >> on a widecreen monitor. It's still fine.
00:59:26
There's enough horizontal >> on your 32 in monitor. >> Well, it's wide. It's a wide.
00:59:30
>> But what about your 14-inch MacBook? >> There are people who use ultra wides.
00:59:33
Anyone who uses an ultra wide cannot possibly justify not using horizontal tabs for vertical tabs. You got to use
00:59:38
vertical tabs. Yeah, they're not. Yeah, >> but on my, you know, the Pro display or
00:59:43
whatever, it's still widescreen. I still got plenty of horizontal pixels to spare
00:59:46
and every website is vertical. >> What about this computer, your 14-inch MacBook Pro?
00:59:49
>> Yeah, I got one window. >> You have one window? >> Yeah. >> Okay.
00:59:53
>> What about Mac OS and not Windows, idiot? >> One window. Doc's at the bottom. I could
00:59:58
easily move the dock to the side. That's totally valid point. But yeah, I I see
01:00:02
all my >> What about watching videos in a browser? >> What about it?
01:00:06
>> It's widescreen. You're losing a bunch of real estate, especially on an
01:00:10
MKBHD2X1 video. >> I watch videos on my phone all the time. >> Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,
01:00:14
wait. Sorry. I'm watching a video in my browser. It's a widescreen video.
01:00:18
>> Mhm. >> And then this vertical tab is making it smaller, but you can maximize. Oh, no,
01:00:22
it's not. There's still extra horizontal. There's still white space to
01:00:25
the left and right of every video. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Open up YouTube right now.
01:00:30
>> You don't much left and right. >> You don't maximize. >> If I maximize it's full screen.
01:00:33
>> Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I just full screen. It's whatever. But here's
01:00:36
>> Wait, what do you mean? >> Yeah, black space. Black space. Left and
01:00:39
right. There's What the heck? There's just more blank space. The video is the
01:00:42
same size. >> Oh >> Can you do an MPB HD video? >> Yeah, it's 2 by one though if I switch
01:00:46
to Yeah. Which >> Yeah, which is why it would be >> Oh, okay. Oh, that's what you meant by
01:00:49
two by one. Okay. So, this is a Bluey phone review. >> And so now there's this is about per
01:00:57
almost perfect, but there's still extra horizontal space. >> Okay, now get rid of it.
01:01:00
>> Same size video. >> Same size video. Hide my tabs. I got plenty of horizontal pixels to work with
01:01:05
here. Yeah, >> it's all about the vertical space. >> That did If you want your
01:01:10
>> If you're outside of theater mode, it does. >> Oh, >> okay. That kind of screws my point up
01:01:14
there. >> Yeah, the video is the same size. So, I I'm a big I I agree with David Pierce, I
01:01:20
think, which I'm going to read his article, but I assume he's saying precious vertical pixels. You need those
01:01:25
>> pressure. Yeah, I did do a super super scientific test. >> Mhm. Okay,
01:01:29
>> which is I took a screenshot of my browser with vertical pixel or sorry
01:01:34
horizontal tabs and vertical tabs. >> I brought it into Photoshop. I took total pixel size and took a percentage
01:01:39
of space inside my browser window and how much it's taking up. >> Okay. But yeah, it's going to take up
01:01:44
more space, but you can spare that. That's like saying I have two bank accounts. One of them has way more money
01:01:49
in it and I'm spending a larger percentage of the smaller one, but the smaller one was just for extra stuff.
01:01:54
That's a terrible analogy, but it's like I have a front yard and a I got I got
01:01:59
one I got a front yard and a backyard. The backyard is smaller, but it's the
01:02:03
backyard. Like I can do whatever. So if I have a front yard and I've been putting like I want to put a sculpture
01:02:09
in one of these yards. >> Okay. >> I can put a way bigger sculpture in the
01:02:12
backyard because it's my backyard. I can do whatever I want. I've got extra grass
01:02:16
back there. The front yard is is is precious to use for front yard stuff. >> I would I'm bad at this. I'm saying I
01:02:22
would put a sculpture in the front yard if I was getting a sculpture cuz I >> Help me out with what is a good nail. I
01:02:27
have a driveway. I've got a twocar garage. >> Horizontal tab. >> I got a twocar garage.
01:02:32
>> Go with it. Okay. >> And I have a I have a >> I'm trying to understand what you're
01:02:35
saying. >> I have a Hummer. Okay. I have a two-car garage and I have one massive car. A
01:02:39
Hummer. >> Hummer. >> If I wanted to build a gym in my garage, I would build it in the half garage
01:02:46
that's not being used while I still park the Hummer in the big garage slot. And
01:02:50
how does this relate to the tabs? >> Because that half garage is extra, >> right? So you're saying it takes a big
01:02:57
the gym takes a huge portion of that second garage spot, but who cares? It's
01:03:01
the second garage spot. I wasn't using it for anything. >> Does that track
01:03:06
>> I see what you're saying. >> I think the difference what would need
01:03:10
to happen is the Hummer would need to be able to expand to fill the space allotted, which is not how Hummers work.
01:03:17
>> No, the gym expands. The gym is what's expanding. The gym can expand.
01:03:20
>> You're building a gym in the garage. >> Oh, I see. I see. I see.
01:03:23
>> You have a two-car garage. >> So, the Hummer is the tabs is what you're saying.
01:03:26
>> Uh, and the gym is the tabs. >> The gym is the tabs, >> but the tabs don't expand to fill the
01:03:31
whole screen, right? >> Uh, no, but they I mean, they take up more. You're saying So, Andrew said,
01:03:38
>> okay, >> Andrew said that when I switch to vertical tabs, it's it's turning into
01:03:43
blank space way more. >> Well, it's overall taking up more space inside of the browser. The browser is
01:03:49
for looking at web pages. It's taking away more space for the web page. >> And my argument is it's taking up way
01:03:54
more space, but it's taking up a whole bunch of space that you weren't going to
01:03:57
do anything with because every website is vertical. >> Not yes, >> majority of
01:04:03
some of those things. If I'm also >> on my uh computer putting multiple
01:04:09
windows next to each other vertical, I'm losing horizontal space. So therefore,
01:04:13
now there's a vertical tab list on every single one of those windows. Yeah, >> it is destroy destroying real estate web
01:04:20
browsers. >> You don't even need to have this argument if you just do what you're
01:04:23
supposed to do, which is to do the hover thing where the tabs expand >> in the browser that's going to be
01:04:28
sunlight or >> sunset sunset within the next year. >> I don't care.
01:04:32
>> Can you hide Can you hide >> Can you hide your tabs at the top? >> Um top tabs.
01:04:39
>> Oh, I don't know. Can you hide those? >> I think you can turn off the like
01:04:42
bookmarks bar or whatever the t Oh, no, wait. It's just Okay, here's my take.
01:04:47
Look at this. Look at it. Look at your screen. Look at your teenager. >> Perfect.
01:04:50
>> There's like there's like 12% of your screen that's being used by useless.
01:04:57
>> You're in a different You're basically in like a full screen mode.
01:05:01
>> Me? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Cuz >> that's how you should use your computer.
01:05:05
>> Okay. I have >> somebody takes it. >> I have a way to to >> Wait, can I just say the percentages of
01:05:11
what I calculated? >> Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Horizontal tabs took 3% of the total pixels used by my
01:05:16
browser window. Vertical tabs took up 14% of the total pixels of the browser window.
01:05:21
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Whatever. >> So my take is I would argue that's
01:05:24
functional space though because the way that I use my vertical tabs is folders and they're drop down. So when you click
01:05:30
on one it pops out underneath. >> So I could see everything. >> Let's go.
01:05:34
>> That's you can do tabs. >> Waterfalling cascading. That's how
01:05:40
folders work on your computer. If you only have like three three tabs open, >> is the entire sidebar just empty then?
01:05:47
>> Yes. >> Yeah. And you weren't gonna use those pixels anyway. >> I got a blank.
01:05:51
>> And that's why you got to be mean and you got so hard to understand the amount
01:05:54
of tabs that you have open. >> Yeah. If I have 20 tabs, it fills up the whole list. But I I'd never have that
01:05:59
many tabs open. And this whole left area, which was not going to be used either way, switch to vertical. Switch
01:06:04
to the top tabs. It's also still blank because the website's in the middle of
01:06:07
the screen. So those tabs are all white no matter what you do. Just might as well have the superior.
01:06:12
>> Well, yeah. It just takes up like eight times as much screen real estate.
01:06:16
>> Unless you hide them. You say screen real estate like it's precious, but it's
01:06:19
blank pixels. >> Hide them. >> I do think it >> this all gets solved if you hide them
01:06:25
when you hide your doc right now. >> I'll hide my doc right now. >> Every website scrolls up and down.
01:06:30
>> I'lling do it. >> Everyone every single time scrolls vertical.
01:06:34
>> Turn hiding on. I need to have a screen of my uh >> I just want to see your two web browser
01:06:40
windows open with vertical tabs side by side next to each other doing something.
01:06:47
>> Yeah, you do have way more. You're like widecreen people are stupid. But I have
01:06:51
two >> I have two monitors. >> No more dock for me. Wow, it's committing to it. I'm committing. I like
01:06:56
that I don't click on those things. I just I just do command space actually.
01:07:00
Yeah. Wait, I'm going to do that, too. >> I'm going to hide my doc. Wait a second.
01:07:04
>> Is this something we can all agree on? Cuz I'm a Raycast. >> I was going to say
01:07:07
>> I can't. >> The real end to this whole debate is everyone has way too many tabs open and
01:07:12
just do whatever you want. I thought it was fun. >> Yeah, that's the whole reason I liked
01:07:15
Arc in the first place cuz I have way too many tabs open and it closes them for me.
01:07:19
>> You don't want Arc. You want an AI browser by Atlassian. Give me my Jira ASAP. Integrate with my
01:07:29
KPIs. Also, Firefox has had vertical tabs for a while. Yeah. >> All right.
01:07:34
>> I don't use them. I'm just saying Firefox. >> Andrew's that guy. It's Andrew's the
01:07:38
meme of like the guy in the party who's like, "No one here knows. >> I use Firefox.
01:07:42
>> I also >> hiding the doc." >> Totally understand. I'm the last person
01:07:46
you should be taking advice for. >> No, I'm the last Safari. >> My desktop is insane. It makes no sense.
01:07:53
my on my the Proisplay XDR, I use that big screen real estate by just having a bunch of different sized aspect ratio
01:08:00
windows where a corner of them's popping out all over. So that's how I can just
01:08:03
click between all my different windows. And I also am running Android Studio. So
01:08:09
because I don't have Instagram on any of my devices, which means I can't share
01:08:13
things to my story. So I now have a virtual Pixel 9 running on my desktop just so I can add things to my story
01:08:20
when the studio tags me in. I think what we're learning is all of us have very
01:08:23
different habits on our desktops and we just kind of have to use what works for us. You know,
01:08:27
>> you didn't let me talk about the most goatated Safari feature of them all. The
01:08:31
one that literally is causing Safari to lap all other browser offerings. >> Oh god. Okay.
01:08:37
>> You guys ever checked out your reading list? >> Oh no. I've only ever accidentally
01:08:42
clicked that. >> You know, there's like flames. >> There's like 8,000 extension Chrome
01:08:46
extensions that do that. >> Yeah. I use a you can save things to your >> superior bookmark uh aggregation service
01:08:54
with a simple plugin >> that is platform multiplatform >> that syncs to all your devices
01:08:59
>> see but what I don't know what background processes that's running I
01:09:03
don't know what servers it's connecting to >> wait okay before we move I I
01:09:08
>> reading list I'm on my computer at work and I see an article that I'm interested
01:09:12
in and I'm like >> Chrome has that >> I'm do shut up and I'm talking here. Okay, buddy. And then
01:09:19
I'm like, damn, I want to read that, but I'm doing work right now, you know. And
01:09:23
then I get on the bus and I open my phone and I hit reading list and I get you do that with Chrome.
01:09:28
>> I get a I don't care. >> Okay. You know, you know, you know what
01:09:31
how many hoops I have to go through? I have to put my computer on a spit over like a fire and and spin it while
01:09:38
doing some like tribal dance. >> Put it in a fridge. >> Look, Ellis, I understand that you're
01:09:41
like you're like traumatized from the iPhone 12 mini battery life, so now you're only focused on battery life. And
01:09:46
I understand that. >> No, I'm not focused. I'm focused on RAM. I'm focused on RAM. And I'm focused on I
01:09:51
don't like my browser connecting to random servers. I didn't tell it to because I downloaded some random
01:09:57
extension from somewhere in the world. Okay. >> You get your viruses. >> Yeah.
01:10:01
>> Yeah. >> Come on, man. I want to make my virus soup. >> Um, I have a quick question for you
01:10:06
guys. What browser do you use on your phones? >> Chrome. >> That I actually That's a good I have
01:10:11
several answers. >> Quick question. >> No, on my Android phone I use Chrome. On
01:10:15
my iPhone, I use Arc and Safari. >> What? >> Unfortunately, >> what do you use Safari for?
01:10:20
>> I default to Arc, but I have several tabs that I leave open in Safari that I
01:10:25
always go back to. >> Why don't you just have them on Arc? >> Uh, I don't know.
01:10:31
>> This this conversation is going to end and all of our audiences would be like,
01:10:35
why do I listen to these people? These are the people I take advice from. >> This is just revealing that a lot of us
01:10:41
like started habits that we just didn't think about and now we're prepared. Why
01:10:44
are we doing this? >> No, I've tried to switch. I've used I didn't I never tried Arc because I was
01:10:49
so annoyed by But I've tried every other browser. I've even tried the the
01:10:53
Perplexity one. Comet, >> you know. I I haven't tried Opera GX either. Ask me what I use on my phone.
01:10:58
>> What do you use on your phone? >> Safari. >> You must if you have
01:11:01
>> Please don't use Safari. >> You have the reading list on your phone,
01:11:04
right? >> Safari music. >> Is this Safari music? >> Yeah, it was supposed to be Safari.
01:11:10
>> The Safari icon is the superior icon of everything. I I've tried to use a bunch
01:11:15
of different icons. >> Safari is fine, but the reason why I can't go all in on it is because it's
01:11:20
not multiplatform. Yeah. >> Like that's basically it. Like at home, I use a Linux computer. I can't download
01:11:25
Safari on a Linux computer. Like can't download on your Android phone. >> Yeah. And I can't download on my Android
01:11:30
phone and I switch back and forth all the time. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I've been weaning off of of Arc slowly.
01:11:34
I'm I should be leaving Arc. >> Why? Uh because the lack of updates. I
01:11:38
just know it's not going to perform well in like a year. It's going to be a slow
01:11:41
crawling mess. It's been dead for a while and I still use it. >> But do you ever check on other browsers
01:11:47
and go, "Oh, Arc is a slow crawling mess." >> I check on other browsers, but like what
01:11:51
do you mean by slow crawling? >> Like it takes like 30 years to open and >> it doesn't take 30 years to open.
01:11:57
>> Try opening another browser. >> See how fast it opens? >> My god.
01:12:02
>> I mean, I think David hit the nail on the head. It's habit. And all of us are
01:12:05
in weird habits. And a browser is one of those habitual things you're in so much
01:12:09
that any change feels really weird. Does ARC still sync? >> I don't mobile. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes, it
01:12:15
does. Yes. Yes. Maybe I'll switch back and hate myself a little more. >> It's a good thing none of these browsers
01:12:20
have any critical vulnerabilities. >> Yeah, that's a great segue. Um >> they all do.
01:12:25
>> They actually all do. They >> actually everything does. >> Actually everything does. Okay. Very
01:12:31
very big story drop. >> Title of this episode. This podcast has a critical vulnerability.
01:12:36
Uh, insane story dropped yesterday, Tuesday, April 7th. >> Chat GBT is in your car now.
01:12:44
>> You know, it was going to happen eventually. Anthropic announced also that
01:12:48
>> a large project uh called Project Glass Wing, which is a joint cyber security
01:12:53
effort to patch various vulnerabilities across different OSS across various software. The reason this is a big deal
01:13:00
is because I think last week or possibly the week before, we talked about how Anthropic had accidentally leaked a
01:13:07
bunch of stuff that had it had been working on for a very long period of time. One of those leaks, probably the
01:13:12
biggest of those leaks, was a new model called Mythos that they've been working
01:13:16
on, which is the biggest model they've ever trained. It has trillions of parameters. It is this giant kind of
01:13:22
behemoth. >> It's a good name. >> Yes, very good name. They trained it
01:13:25
specifically to be good at coding. Something that they found out after they trained it was not only was it good at
01:13:32
coding, but a side effect of being good at coding was that it was extremely good
01:13:35
at cyber security and finding bugs and things like that. Um, they, you know, were messing around with it. They were
01:13:42
like trying to do some cyber sec stuff with it. They found thousands of high severity security vulnerabilities,
01:13:48
including some in every major operating system and web browser. um and it can chain together various
01:13:56
different security vulnerabilities to come up with more powerful outcomes. So for an example in Linux, they found
01:14:02
various different vulnerabilities that allowed you to have access to admin access to any Linux computer by chaining
01:14:10
together a a bunch of these different bugs that is in the Linux kernel. >> That's combo.
01:14:14
>> It combo >> get comboed. >> The scary thing too is that it did it
01:14:18
autonomously. >> Autonomously >> like just by itself >> allegedly. Allegedly. Alleged.
01:14:22
>> All of this is alleged, by the way, because they did not they're not
01:14:25
releasing this to the public. >> Dave and I were talking about how in the mythos release paper stuff like there
01:14:29
were a few things >> system card. Yeah. >> Yeah. There were a few things they
01:14:32
described as unprompted which were like >> basically definitely prompted. So, it's
01:14:38
like you got to take all this with a little bit of a grain of salt. But >> the system card, which is kind of like
01:14:43
this m it's like 200 and something pages of like what happened during their testing process of this new model. There
01:14:49
are various things that were kind of interesting that happened, but that they definitely kind of hyped up a little bit
01:14:54
to catch more headlines. Like for example, they put Mythos in the sandbox environment and they instructed it to
01:15:00
break out of the sandbox environment. And it did. And you know, in the little there's this little like what's what's
01:15:08
what's it called when you put a little ticker above it that says like 10 and
01:15:11
then lower down it's like this is what 10 means. >> What is that called?
01:15:15
>> Oh, reference. >> Annotation. >> Yeah, annotation. They put an annotation
01:15:18
and they were like it, you know, autonomously broke out of here. >> Wait, you're talking about footnotes?
01:15:22
>> A footnote? Yeah, sorry. Footnote, not an annotation. >> That was the most abstract way I've ever
01:15:26
heard. >> I'm just thinking about it in my head. >> Yeah. >> Uh, so in in that one they had said like
01:15:32
the security researcher only realized that had broken out of the sandbox when he received an unprompted email from the
01:15:38
model telling it had broken out of the sandbox. And I was like, well, okay, that is kind of crazy. But at the same
01:15:43
time, like you said, it said when he received an email while he was in the park eating a sandwich, which is like
01:15:48
why did you say that? >> And then the other part was like >> it was not just prompted to break out.
01:15:52
It was prompted to email >> to let them know. Yeah. So it's like, >> you know, it's
01:15:56
>> they were supposed to. >> Yeah. It's crazy that it's able to do
01:15:59
that. Like it was able to run JavaScript and figure out a way to like break out of the sandbox by running specific
01:16:06
JavaScript things, which like no one's supposed to be able to do. But regardless um anyway so because this
01:16:12
model they found to be so powerful they formed this alliance called project glasswing which is this multi- company
01:16:20
security effort where they're giving mythos to a number of different companies because they have found major
01:16:26
security vulnerabilities in every major OS and most of the platforms like and apps in the world. So anyway, they're
01:16:35
also giving access to 40 different organizations uh to use Mythos previews to be able preview to be able to secure
01:16:42
their environments before this kind of cyber security AI agent is unleashed on the world. Because uh I think if there's
01:16:49
one thing we know, it's that if you make software and you say we're not going to
01:16:53
make this available to the public, it will eventually become available to public either uh because you decide to
01:16:58
eventually release it or because someone else hacks you or because your OpenAI or
01:17:04
Google eventually develops an agent that's just as powerful and can do the same things. So what they're trying to
01:17:10
do now is they're basically trying to like secure major software before agents
01:17:16
come out that can find vulnerabilities in all of this software. >> Um yeah, there was also a bug in OpenBSD
01:17:23
that has been present for 27 years that nobody knew about that is able to crash any machine. Um so yeah, pretty big
01:17:32
pretty big vulnerabilities there. There was also one in ffmpeg which is like the
01:17:36
>> video encoder decoder single thing uses. >> Exactly. It's just Yeah, it's exactly
01:17:42
>> sorry. >> I know you you explained it so much better than I was going to be able to
01:17:45
but yeah, it's it's code that's present in most software that is able to encode
01:17:49
and decode videos because why would you write it yourself when you can just pull
01:17:53
it off the shelf? So yeah, essentially >> most software, it turns out zero day
01:17:58
vulnerabilities that >> it took a robot to figure out. >> Yeah. So, I think that the kind of scary
01:18:04
thing about stuff like this is that part of the AI race is that there are companies that will say, "Well, if
01:18:10
Anthropic's not going to release this, we're going to develop a model that's
01:18:12
just as powerful and we're going to release it because we want to gain market share." That's what people are
01:18:17
freaked out about. And so, that's why Anthropic is trying to like secure this
01:18:21
stuff ahead of time. In my opinion, I don't think they should have even put out the blog post before they did a lot
01:18:26
more work on this. Um, but it's possible they >> That's where my alarm bells go off. Why
01:18:32
would you even tell anyone about this? >> Because it got leaked. >> That's what I was going to Yeah. I think
01:18:37
the main reason why they ended up like talking about it was because it got leaked.
01:18:40
>> Oh yeah, they leaked the whole source code. Exactly. Who I want in charge of
01:18:44
cyber security. >> They they Right. I know. They leaked they leaked opus source code. Yeah. And
01:18:50
in opus they found references to this thing called mythos. So everyone is like what the hell is anthropic mythos?
01:18:57
>> It could have just been like nothing. Don't worry about it. >> Yeah, they also had little characters
01:19:00
that you could dance around and you could have on your computer, which is arguably more important.
01:19:04
>> The disclaimer that I David and I were when we were talking about this, Dave
01:19:07
and I carpool to work on Wednesdays together, so we talk about all the pod stuff. But the thing that David and I
01:19:12
really wanted to talk about is just that like it's as much as this seems legit
01:19:17
and seems freaky, um, you know, they have a financial interest in lying. So maybe they're
01:19:25
lying. Maybe they're not. I don't know. >> Yeah, I don't I mean, they got, you
01:19:28
know, 12 large corporations and 40 organizations and they they have all these quotes and they have people in the
01:19:33
video talking about how important it was. One of the best security researchers in the world said that while
01:19:37
he's been using Mythos, he's found more bugs than in his entire career. >> Yeah. No, it definitely it definitely
01:19:42
seems pretty legit, but I just also know like >> you should take all this with a
01:19:47
>> I've been listening to Sam Alman saying he's one second away from curing cancer
01:19:50
for the past two and a half years. And so, you know, >> I'll take it all with a grain of salt.
01:19:54
>> Don't worry, he bought a podcast. We're all good. >> Oh my god, dude.
01:19:58
>> The uh Speaking of >> safety. >> Speaking of >> Oh, that's good. That's good. That's
01:20:04
good. >> Good job. >> Nicely done. >> I saw this article, this release uh
01:20:09
today, and I just thought it was a cool little article. Um SCOD, the car company, is designing a bell for your
01:20:15
bike for the sole purpose of being able to penetrate active noise cancelling. So, uh the car company released a new
01:20:22
bell. Um and they are talking in their video uh about the release of it in London, a city with 1.5 million bike
01:20:30
commuters per day, a a city where 54% of all headphones sold have active noise cancelling and has also seen a 24% rise
01:20:38
in cyclist pedestrian collisions. they decided that they needed to work on this new bell because while there are
01:20:44
obviously so many variables between pedestrians, cyclists, automobiles and everything, they believe that the mix of
01:20:50
smartphone usage and active noise cancelling is being detrimental to situational awareness and recognizing
01:20:56
alert sounds. So, what they decided they had to do was find a way to make bells on your bike noticeable by somebody
01:21:05
wearing noise cancelling headphones. um would also this came so there's this big
01:21:09
study we'll link it in the show notes um Ellis could potentially make me help me
01:21:13
explain this better but they essentially tested the top six most popular headphones with active noise cancelling
01:21:20
to try and find a frequency that Ellis is this the easiest way of describing it active noise cancelling essentially
01:21:27
looks at the frequencies that are coming in and then >> re plays a reverse
01:21:32
>> plays the reverse version of it to cancel out the noise so they found that
01:21:36
750 Hz was a frequency that for whatever reason ANC just wasn't really able to
01:21:41
handle in terms of blocking out. >> They found a bunch of things. They found
01:21:45
uh Okay, so they found they found a few different things. It's it's uh the first
01:21:49
is that um how cluttered the noise environment that you're in affects what frequencies the ANC is better at
01:21:57
canceling out versus others. So when there's a lot of noise going on, certain
01:22:02
frequencies are better. When there's not a lot of noise, other frequencies penetrate better. Another thing they
01:22:06
found was that um tonal frequencies, like frequencies that have a clear like bass and then harmonic stack on top of
01:22:15
them work better than sounds that are a little bit more random and chaotic and like what we would call noisy. Uh
01:22:21
there's a there's a bunch of interesting things, but yeah, largely that that's
01:22:23
the big thing is that in a lot like there are certain situations where 750 Hz works really well and then there are
01:22:29
certain situations where I think it was like 1K or 2K or something like that work swish works really well. Uh
01:22:35
>> so I thought what it was is that the 750 Hz was the frequency that ANC basically
01:22:40
was not able to counteract and so that could pierce uh noise cancelling headphones.
01:22:46
>> Let me >> Isn't that like a super like a bass? >> It is. So So the reason this is this is
01:22:51
called the Scod Duo Bell is because the 750 Hz can break uh noise cancellation but that is a very low noise for people
01:23:01
who are not wearing noise cancelling headphones. So that bell just by itself at 750 Hz probably won't actually alert
01:23:09
somebody in an environment that's not wearing the headphones. So that's why
01:23:12
the bell has two different frequencies on it. One is over 2,000 htz because that is still a general
01:23:20
>> uh like bike bell alert sound that people are used to. So people who aren't
01:23:23
wearing headphones, >> it would be crazy to do this whole thing to help people with headphones and then
01:23:28
make it worse and not alerting people who aren't wearing the headphones. I'm
01:23:32
just trying to imagine the sound of a bike chime but in a much lower pitch. >> I don't know if I would I guess it would
01:23:38
be interesting to hear like if I'm listening to music and it has bass in it. That's going to sound like a more
01:23:43
bass. >> I would assume it's something different you're not used to. You're wondering
01:23:47
what that sound is. >> Maybe >> they did. The way they tested it is through this kind of complicated way.
01:23:53
They like did virtual reality where one person was walking. That's 750. >> 750.
01:23:59
>> That sounds dumb. >> Higher than I thought. Um, okay. >> But like if Well, I guess it's one
01:24:06
thing. The the whole the bell is all mechanical. It's not digital. >> 2000's pretty high. I was listening to
01:24:12
these before to try and see what they sounded like. >> But you also have to think of it. It has
01:24:16
to be in a bell that goes like um >> the way they did it is they tested it by
01:24:21
a person in virtual reality was wearing noise cancelling headphones and was in the in the virtual reality supposed to
01:24:29
be doing something on their phone to be paying attention to it. >> It's hard to imagine these as the bike
01:24:34
tone that would be on a but that's much louder. Uh and so in their testing they s found
01:24:41
that people wearing ANC headphones heard the bell 22 meters earlier or 5 seconds
01:24:46
sooner than an average person biking which is yeah huge. >> Um so yeah it's something they're
01:24:51
testing in London. They're planning on expanding it. I want it because when we
01:24:55
are trying to do water runs in the studio and everyone's wearing headphones I want to try and alert everybody. So we
01:25:00
should just put it at the front door so we can just ring ring ring ring ring ring and everybody can then know we're
01:25:06
going to do a water run. Why were they in VR when they were testing this again? >> So they get that spending money
01:25:12
>> because they were they they weren't just >> the original testing was.
01:25:15
>> Yeah. So they weren't they weren't just being like how well do you hear this?
01:25:19
They were simulating distractions both in the foreground, background, and periphery.
01:25:24
>> And so they were trying to figure like not just how well can you hear something, but how well does the like
01:25:28
ear response actually reach your brain when cuz when you're riding a bike, you're focused on
01:25:34
>> stuff. Well, I guess not ready when you're in the world. >> They're saying people with headphones
01:25:38
are generally also a lot of times looking at their phone and just completely >> unaware of what's going around.
01:25:44
>> Yeah. >> Um, one thing in here though is with all the testing, they did create a graph of
01:25:49
the AirPods Mac, Bose Choir Comfort, Sony WX100's, AirPods Pro, JBL Live Pro,
01:25:54
and Samsung Galaxy Buds. And they have a graph of how well the mean attenuation is. And AirPods Max just kind of blow
01:26:02
everything out of the water. I was a little confused by this because they don't they don't say which generation of
01:26:07
these they use. That sort of frustrated me. They don't say which Sony's they
01:26:11
don't say which AirPod Pros >> which pro is now there's a new one but I think
01:26:18
this happened before that that came out like last week. >> Yeah. Just but yeah. None of them have a
01:26:22
number. >> Yeah. >> True. >> Apple's got to be very new but are way
01:26:26
better than the old at noise cancelling specifically. >> Yeah. Yeah. Apple's got to be very
01:26:31
annoyed at this chart because they um they said AirPod Pro and AirPod Max and as we know Apple's very specific
01:26:39
>> there's a lot about this the Sony WX1000s they just get even they were
01:26:44
like this name sucks I'm not listing the whole thing in it >> Samsung Galaxy Bud
01:26:48
>> and just JBL Pro all lowercase >> a part of it might also be cuz they're
01:26:52
trying to like not make it about the individual headphones like that's not the point the point is just headphones
01:26:56
in general you know >> the point of our They do they list >> they do break it down.
01:27:04
>> Guys, what's my least favorite thing in the world? >> Um the noise of it's frequency response
01:27:09
charts. It's frequency response charts because there's so much information
01:27:12
about noise cancelling that this graph does not show. So I I'm also not mad that cuz you would not be able to look
01:27:18
as much as I want to be like Ellis is right Airpods Max or the go. It's like
01:27:23
um for example like the speed of the drivers like how fast those drivers can move in and out will affect how much of
01:27:31
sudden sounds are able to be cancelled. Uh the excursion of the drivers, how far
01:27:37
spatially they can move from their resting point is going to affect like how much like really low booms are able
01:27:43
to be can. You know there there's a lot of other features that you can't just be
01:27:45
like x frequency is canceled y amount. Um, >> yeah. >> If anyone ever sends me a frequency
01:27:52
response chart, block my number. >> Bro, what do you mean? >> It's kind of like an MTF.
01:27:57
>> I said what I said. >> It's kind of like an MTF chart with lenses.
01:28:00
>> It's like when people are like the sound stage of headphones. I'm like, miss me.
01:28:05
Straight. Straight up miss me. >> Well, um, I have many thoughts, but we have to get going.
01:28:11
>> Adam, you should try. >> I I just want to try I want I want the bell and I want to see what it sounds
01:28:15
like. I mean, we all Andrew, you and I, we always want the bell, baby. But, you know, boy,
01:28:20
>> what does that what does that mean? >> Taco Bell. >> Oh, got it. Got it. Got it. Got it.
01:28:24
Yeah, same. >> Wait, no, we should. I would be interested in obtaining this.
01:28:27
>> I don't know how we will because it's only in London right now. Scod, if
01:28:30
you're listening, >> I I would fly to London at the time. >> Anyway, Adam, do you want to transition
01:28:36
to us into your rant? Speaking of >> Speaking of things that I'm angry about,
01:28:40
>> there you go. There it is. >> You're angry at bells? >> Um, no, not not really. more so speaking
01:28:46
about it. >> No, I'm mad at Ellis's frequency response. >> Oh, I Okay,
01:28:50
>> but also about Pixel uh 10A coming out in Japan in blue. Okay, I have a few
01:28:57
questions here. >> Okay, >> so if you don't know, the Pixel 10a got
01:29:00
a Japan exclusive variant that is like a nice blue color. It has its own cool uh
01:29:06
icons and wallpapers and all this stuff. >> Yeah, >> it's neat. Fine. I'm confused because
01:29:11
isn't this just the Pixel 10 color? Like the blue looks exactly the same. >> Oh, that's where that's where you get
01:29:17
triggered the design people. >> It's such a specific blue. >> It is a very specific blue and it has a
01:29:23
special name and everything, but I'm looking at it and again, we don't have
01:29:25
the actual device. So, I'm looking at on the screen. Yep. >> And I'm looking at the Pixel 10 that we
01:29:29
have here in the office. Yep. >> And I'm just like, it's the same picture.
01:29:33
>> Yeah, >> they're the same picture. >> I don't know what it is about these
01:29:35
companies that they sort of over Maybe they overdo like how much they think we care about the exact color. You know
01:29:42
what Motorola does? They do like a they have a partnership with Panone and they'll do a special edition phone that
01:29:47
is in the Panone color of the year. >> As if I've ever met anyone who >> even knows what that is.
01:29:54
>> Like we do have designers here. >> You don't remember Cosmic Latte?
01:29:58
>> No. No. And >> color of the year from like >> I know that there are people who care
01:30:03
about the panone color of the year and those people are a very specific person who you know pays attention to colors
01:30:07
and new things like that and that's very exciting to them. But does Motorola
01:30:10
think that there's like a huge audience that's like, "Oh man, I can't wait for
01:30:14
the this panone color of the year to be a phone." I guess they do think that
01:30:17
because we get that every year. And so here comes Google and they're like, "We've got this very specific blue." And
01:30:21
no, no, no. It's not the same as the Pixel 10 blue. It's a certain What are
01:30:24
they calling it? Isai blue. Am I saying that right? >> Isul is I think it's named after the
01:30:29
designer, right? >> Yeah. It seems like this is less about the color and more about the
01:30:33
collaboration that >> Yeah. Which that's my next point. That's a really cool collaboration. That dude
01:30:38
is like a great artist. Why do we get Wicked and Spongebob themes here in the States while Japan gets this?
01:30:44
>> I think you know the answer to that question. Wicked answer because people
01:30:47
here know about this and people there know about that. >> How many How many times do we reference
01:30:51
this guy and how many times do we reference Spongebob? >> That's fair. That's fair. Um, also
01:30:56
>> a little annoyed just generally about pixel availability just because it just
01:31:00
came to Mexico like this past year. There's multiple countries where not all
01:31:04
the features are available. pixel stuff. I saw the article and I clicked the link
01:31:17
to watch the video, the video popped up in 4x3. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And it's from Google Japan YouTube
01:31:22
channel with a 4x3 video and I was like, what? >> Google Japan is so stylish.
01:31:28
>> It's so Yeah. >> If you go to Google Japan's YouTube channel, everything they do is so
01:31:31
awesome. >> Yeah. But every other Well, not every other video. The few the other ones that
01:31:34
I clicked on are just regular like 16 by9. This one was 4x3. And I think it has to do with like the artsiness of it.
01:31:40
But I just found it so interesting because Google is like the most corporate corporate
01:31:46
>> company. >> Yeah. >> And >> they're not as corporate as like
01:31:48
Microsoft though. >> I would disagree. I think they're very corporate in different ways,
01:31:53
>> I guess. >> But I think they still have this like idea of whimsy from back in the day, but
01:31:57
they are super corporate. And the fact that I clicked on a video and it was 4x3, I was like, whoa.
01:32:02
>> Yeah. Yeah, that was my branding. >> I have to I have a correction. Cosmic
01:32:06
Latte was not a panone. >> How dare you? >> Don't worry. There's already there's
01:32:11
already seven comments. >> Cosmic Latte was remember like a 10 years ago they were like this is the
01:32:16
average color of the universe. >> Wa >> cosmic latte. >> How do you guys not remember this? This
01:32:21
is like the most Marquette. It's space and color. >> That's I and if you can rail against uh
01:32:28
frequency response charts, I'm railing against average color of the universe.
01:32:31
That is the most useless thing I've ever heard. What? The average of the universe?
01:32:34
>> That sounds like something you'd be you'd be interested in. >> You can only see like
01:32:38
>> the average of the universe zero is black. It's nothing >> black. Yeah.
01:32:42
>> Most of the universe. >> Is that a color or is that a >> not according to John's Hopkins
01:32:45
University, bro? >> All right. All right. I mean, there's obviously the core of a neutron star,
01:32:49
which is the brightest thing ever. >> The average color of the universe is
01:32:51
infrared. >> No, it's latte. >> It's in Is it in the visible light
01:32:57
range? Is what you're saying? Is the average of the universe? You mean if you
01:33:00
compressed it into the visual light? Seems insane. But you're saying yes. >> Look, you know, Marquez, I would read
01:33:05
about I don't understand this stuff. >> I don't understand. >> For those wondering, the cos the panone
01:33:11
color of the year. >> It's freaking >> 2026. >> Tan, bro, it sucks. It's lame.
01:33:16
>> No, it's blue. >> No, it's not. >> Cloud Dancer this year.
01:33:20
>> That's lit. >> 114201. >> What? What happened to >> Yeah. All of a sudden, I'm a big fan of
01:33:25
Panone. That's awesome. >> No, Adam. I looked up the only other Google Japan video I could ever think
01:33:30
of, which is their 2022 April Fool's joke, which was they just made a keyboard where all of the letters are
01:33:36
one really long stick. >> Um, and funny enough, it it starts in 4x3 and then when they announce the
01:33:43
board and start swiping down, it expands to widescreen to put more of the keyboard.
01:33:47
>> Damn, that's so cool. >> Wow. >> Yeah, that was an April Fool's Day
01:33:51
thing. >> Before we move on, I do you guys know about Klein Blue? >> What is Klein Blue? There's an artist
01:33:56
named Eve Klein who made this painting with this uh paint blue paint that they mixed themselves and um then they
01:34:05
trademarked it and now they have their own blue and when you say it it's like
01:34:08
that's stupid. Like you can't use this color blue unless you pay this guy Eve
01:34:12
Klein. >> But then you look at the blue and you're like damn >> that's a good blue.
01:34:17
>> This is also a bonus episode. If you if you click on the panone color of the
01:34:20
year it's like please no more. Here's a payw wall. Sign up for 15,000 colors.
01:34:25
Like I what what >> dude cloud dancer which is the color of the year this year. It's just like it's
01:34:30
beige. It's literally beige. There's a really awesome article. >> Very specific.
01:34:35
>> I don't care. There's so many colors. >> There's a there's an awesome article I
01:34:40
think by Mia Sato on the verge where she went to like the panone color of the year party.
01:34:45
>> Wow. See this is that's the >> that sounds of the person who would go
01:34:50
no >> I'd go to that. I would normally go to that if it was anything but beige. You
01:34:55
would normally go to the Panone Color of the Year. >> Of course. >> Would you not?
01:34:59
>> That sounds pretty sweet. >> That's a better than every South by
01:35:02
Southwest party I've ever panone gets a bad rep because they're one of those
01:35:06
companies that you know >> is evil. >> Well, that's the thing is like
01:35:10
>> paying colors. >> I get the idea like yeah, they're payw walling colors, but also like
01:35:14
>> thank god they exist, dude. Because like especially like right now, for example,
01:35:19
right? >> This should be a bonus episode. I'm trying to I I got a suit jacket for
01:35:24
a great price on eBay and I'm trying to find matching pants and I cannot find
01:35:27
pants that are the exact same color. Like this color matching has just been and the whole point of panone is
01:35:33
coloratch standardized. So if you see something on the internet you can just read that's color 89627. You open up
01:35:39
your book that you paid $10 million for and you can't leave in the sun. >> Yeah. Can't leave in the sun. And then
01:35:44
you find 89267 and then you go okay now I'm certain. and it standardizes it across different
01:35:50
materials, different finishes, and this whole thing. We We accidentally know way
01:35:54
too much about this and maybe should actually be a bonus episode, but I am also fine with trolling Tim and people
01:36:00
who are listening to this by saying they're payw walling colors. This month's bonus episode is a Q&A link in
01:36:05
the description to ask your questions. Please give us questions cuz we don't
01:36:09
have any. >> You think people are still listening? >> I know. If you're still listening, then
01:36:12
we want your questions cuz you are in this with us. So, please, >> we have a beautiful domain. You can go
01:36:18
>> Oh, yeah. >> to waveforms survey.com. >> We're not reusing that at all.
01:36:24
>> Not at all. >> We've never used that before. >> We paid for it. It's It's worth
01:36:28
>> So, to be clear, you got to utilize it. >> We are going to be doing a bonus episode
01:36:31
soon. If you are still listening this far on the podcast, you are the type of person we want to answer the questions
01:36:35
from. Go to waveformservey.com. Ask us questions on an upcoming bonus episode. We will answer those questions.
01:36:42
>> But you know what else has questions and answers? >> What is that, Ellis?
01:36:45
>> You already know. Oh, I left the fader down. >> Trivia, >> trivia,
01:36:51
>> trivia, dude. So, we just spoke about anthropic uh discovering all these
01:36:55
vulnerabilities in Linux specifically. It's just one of the examples they used,
01:36:59
but Lionus Torva when he initially made Linux debated naming it something else. Was it A. Freaks. A combination of free
01:37:09
freak and the letter X to indicate that it was a Unix system. B. We changing the
01:37:15
youth in Unix to to we. C. Tiger, which was the mascot at the University of Helsinki where he was at at the time. Or
01:37:24
D. Torvvis, a combination of his last name and his first name. >> Can you reread the first one?
01:37:29
>> Yo, your weix is showing. >> Freaks. F R E A. >> No, but you said what was the reason?
01:37:36
It's a combination. freak and the letter X to indicate that it was a Unix like
01:37:42
system. >> I like that it's a combination of free and freak when it's just freak.
01:37:47
>> Hey, it's a uh >> That's a tough one. >> What is that?
01:37:49
>> Or is it F R E K? >> F R E A X. >> Oh, free freak. >> It's a It's a nested acronym, bro. It's
01:37:58
fine. >> Wow. >> Um I like that we have multiple chest trivia. >> Thank you.
01:38:02
>> It narrows my odds to 25%. >> Slightly above zero. Can I say >> when I was looking up Artemis stuff, the
01:38:09
number of how the furthest distance they were away from the Earth and I kept being like read it four times cuz I
01:38:15
assumed that was going to be a trivia question. I'm really upset. This is the
01:38:17
first time I was doing research and I was like that's going to be a trivia question. You have to
01:38:21
>> Do you remember it? Was it 252,000? >> 252 and I think it was like 750 or
01:38:26
something. >> That would have been a good trivia question. >> Well, this is at least now we know
01:38:29
>> now that we're mentioning multiple choice. The reason why I wanted specifically to do multiple choices this
01:38:34
week is because YouTube has a feature where you, dear listener, on YouTube >> Oh, yeah.
01:38:38
>> can play along. >> No, that's what the trivia answers are. >> If it doesn't work, then it ignore all
01:38:45
of this. Is this is it new? >> Uh, as of like a month ago, and I've been meaning to bring it up for me and
01:38:50
Ellis, but Ellis today just happened to pick a multiple choice question. I was like, "Oh, yeah. I'm going to pick one,
01:38:55
too, so we could test this out." So they can do this, but they still can't make
01:38:58
an actual time stamp UI. >> Exactly. >> The reason I knew is you remember that
01:39:03
headache you woke up with a few days ago. >> He wishes he doesn't. >> No, I neurolked us, bro.
01:39:08
>> We broke into your house. Me and Elon, we broke into your house and we neural
01:39:11
linked you. >> Yeah. Well, Glass Wing found a couple vulnerabilities in that.
01:39:16
>> I nurked me, too. Sorry, that's why I left that. So, we're we're we're linked
01:39:19
nurly. >> Okay. >> 252756. I was four miles. >> Is that the panone color?
01:39:24
>> Yes. We'll We'll be right back. We're right We're We're leaving.
01:39:27
>> It's beige, but we'll be back. Support for the show comes from Zapier.
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zapier.com/wave. That's zap ie.com/wave. Welcome back. Whoop update from my rant
01:40:39
last week, which first of all, I want to say if you enjoy Whoop and you were mad
01:40:42
at me for saying that, I'm sorry. Enjoy your Whoop band. I'm way more mad at
01:40:46
Whoop, the company, and their pricing and how insufferable their CEO is. Um, but after I ranted about that, a bunch
01:40:54
of fun stuff came out about Whoop, which really people were amped that I ran ranted about it despite I didn't know
01:41:00
what was going on. But Whoop is in the process of suing a company called Bevel, um, who is very similar to an app like
01:41:08
Athletic Athletic that you use. essentially an app that can take uh you know fitness and activity data from
01:41:16
whatever activity tracker you're using and conclude it into different types of
01:41:22
sleep data and strain data and recovery whatever all those different things that
01:41:26
every single other thing uses but Whoop just tells you that they're better at
01:41:28
it. Um but some of the reasons for why they're suing them is just very funny.
01:41:35
Um do you remember the uh Fine Bros? Yeah. >> The Fine Brothers when they tried to
01:41:41
>> they tried to trademark >> trademark Reacts. Yeah. >> Because they long story, but they wanted
01:41:47
to own the concept. >> They basically wanted to own the word React. >> Yeah.
01:41:50
>> Just remember that in some of the what I'll say here. So, Bevel released a
01:41:54
video going over a couple of the things of when Whoop sent them a cease and desist and now this most recent uh
01:42:02
lawsuits. Wow. Total brand. We are very far into this episode and it is showing.
01:42:07
Um, so in their first season exist, they asked Beville to disable dark mode and change the name of strain and recovery
01:42:15
as the names of metrics in their app because I guess those are things that only Whoop can do.
01:42:20
>> Strain and recovery. >> Strain and recovery. So the funny thing about this is uh Whoop only has one
01:42:26
color background which is dark a dark gray. >> Uh, Bevel has light mode and dark mode
01:42:31
like every single other app that's ever been made. Um but and and light mode is
01:42:38
their default, but I guess Whoop doesn't like their dark mode because it looks
01:42:41
too similar to Whoops. Um and they also don't like the names strain and recovery
01:42:46
because I guess those are metrics that Whoop wants to own. >> Those are things that they've named uh
01:42:53
>> the the compilation of those metrics might be totally different in Beville's
01:42:56
app, but uh they probably feel like they want like the word rec like everyone I know who has a Whoop is like, "What's
01:43:03
your recovery score? There's my recovery score. How's your recovery?" That's all
01:43:05
they talk about is the recovery. So, I could imagine an upstart trying to steal users from Whoop also using the word
01:43:12
recovery very intentionally. >> It's one of those things though when you
01:43:15
start focusing too much on a word that has been around forever. >> Yeah. >> It's just a pretty common word that fits
01:43:20
in there. >> If you bring your computer into recovery, are they going to sue you?
01:43:24
Let's quick caveat though, and this is not me defending this, but it's a
01:43:28
trademark and not a copyright, which means part of the nature of a trademark, if they're if they're attempting to
01:43:33
trademark this, they're trademarking its use in a specific >> method context. For example,
01:43:38
>> yeah, >> here's a great example. I could release, >> I don't know,
01:43:43
>> body battery. >> No, no. Well, I'm going to take it another industry. I could release a line
01:43:47
of protein supplements that I call Ellis's 1989 Super Protein, but I cannot sing a song in which I say the line, I
01:43:56
would like to party like it's 1989 because Taylor Swift has the number 1989 trademarked for musical purposes.
01:44:03
>> She does. >> Yes, >> you can do that. >> Yes, >> I don't like that. So,
01:44:08
>> hey, >> wow, that's lame. Yeah, I mean it this is everyone's going to hate like Whoop
01:44:15
suing them because obviously Punching Down looks terrible, but at the same time there's going to be a lot of
01:44:20
companies and I have no idea what Beville's doing. I should probably be more informed on it, but you know, there
01:44:24
are going to be companies that are going to try to specifically steal users from
01:44:27
Whoop, probably by mimicking a lot of their features. >> Here's a couple of their claims that
01:44:30
I'll read out loud. Um, they claim that their home screen looks too much like
01:44:33
theirs. That both apps use rings to represent user strain and recovery scores near the top. Those rings are
01:44:38
colorful circle circular bars that increase clockwise. And there's a coaching feature in a rectangular in a
01:44:44
rectangle using rounded edges and a dark gray background. So rings with colorful
01:44:49
I mean >> so >> like every health metric ever Fitbit uses it, Apple uses it, Garmin
01:44:56
uses it. All rings with colors that because colors and strain green and red are pretty common. Green, yellow, red is
01:45:02
how most of that happens. A rectangle using rounded edges is a hilarious way of saying a button
01:45:08
>> every button ever that's been made. Um, they said that Bevel's app updated the
01:45:13
home screen and uh it's obviously confusing and substantially similar to the Whoop app home screen. The only
01:45:20
problem, so the way the home screen looks, it has three circles at the three different scores on the top when you go
01:45:24
into it. Bevel originally had it separated into three rings and Whoop for a long time was actually only one ring
01:45:31
and then updated their app after Bevel already had that and now has the three rings to the point where when they
01:45:37
updated it there was people commenting on it saying like looks like you're copying Bevel,
01:45:42
>> but now they're suing them saying it looks too much the same. >> Um there's a section that says both apps
01:45:47
use a crescent moon icon to demote sleep. >> Denote you mean? >> Demote. Uh denote. Yeah, sorry. Um, but
01:45:56
to indicate sleep, I think a moon and sleep is pretty synonymous with each other.
01:46:01
>> Maybe some Z's. >> Yeah. And I think my biggest thing here is, which is, I'm sure in the trademark
01:46:06
lawyer word world, totally fine, but kind of stupid, I think, is saying the design's similar and could potentially
01:46:13
confuse people into Whoop's UI. But Whoop is a thing that only exists when you are using the product. Nobody is
01:46:20
getting confused if you don't have a Whoop band and go into the Bevel app. Like it literally has to
01:46:28
>> Yeah. No one's like >> buying a Whoop down like you know using
01:46:32
it and doing the setup and then accidentally in bevel and being like oh >> I'm Is that really a problem? Like
01:46:40
they're not stealing users. Like the copyright thing is usually like >> are you replacing this or are you
01:46:47
supplementing it? If you are replacing revenue that's coming to that company,
01:46:51
then it's a problem. If you're not and it's just supplemental, it's usually not
01:46:54
as much of a problem. >> They're a competitor. So, yeah. >> Yeah. Well, does Bevel have like a band
01:46:59
or anything or does it just take your existing fitness? >> As far as I know, it's only an app and
01:47:03
it takes exist. >> Can it take the metrics from Whoop? >> Probably, but
01:47:08
>> I don't know that for sure. And actually, I wouldn't be surprised if
01:47:10
Whoop doesn't let that. >> I was going to say Whoop has that locked down.
01:47:14
>> I don't know how athletic and Bible work. I just know that they can be used
01:47:17
with different uh you know trackers whether it's a ring whether it's a watch
01:47:22
whether it's whatever >> anything but possibly not >> possibly not whoop I'm not sure
01:47:27
>> so yeah I don't know this really just feels a lot like the fine bros trying to
01:47:31
trademark >> well we know how that ended >> yeah didn't great this is I mean this is
01:47:35
great for bevel because they they were all over Twitter and probably got way I've never heard of them before and
01:47:40
probably more people know about Bevel now >> I hope it doesn't go too deep but I
01:47:44
think Uh, trademarking recovery and strain seems like an absolutely insane thing and a really lame thing to do,
01:47:52
which feels pretty on point for Whoop. >> Quick clarification, while Taylor Swift
01:47:57
does have the number 1989 trademarked, the specific trademark violation is she also has the phrase party like it's
01:48:03
1989. >> Oh. >> Uh, she does have the phrase the number 1989 trademarked as well as I found out
01:48:09
in making sure I was correct on that, she has the phrase this sick beat trademarked.
01:48:14
>> No. Oh, hell yeah. That's cuz it's the best. >> Is it the way she says it? Cuz she says
01:48:17
it's sick B like that. >> I think trademarks are really stupid. But I'm
01:48:25
>> so dumb at >> I do I do understand why they're >> Well, and it's it's they're different
01:48:31
than like they're different than copyrights because it's your right to do
01:48:34
business as a thing essentially. You know what I mean? Like >> I I don't know. I I think it's
01:48:40
>> I also just want to say Taylor Swift was was born on December 13th, 1989. And to
01:48:45
imply that she was partying at that age is just bull. She was at the most she was writhing.
01:48:51
>> You can't prove that >> as a party to some people >> wasn't even sentient.
01:48:56
>> She was not even sentient yet. Also, >> she was training her AI model in the
01:49:00
early stages. >> On a list of recent trademarks, she had recently gotten Female Rage: The
01:49:05
Musical, which I don't even know what that's about. Um, >> yeah, >> but comment down below
01:49:11
>> if you do know what that's about. >> But you know what? I do know lots about.
01:49:15
>> What is that? The answers to the trivia questions that you wrote >> with the fader up this time.
01:49:19
>> Nice. I like that. I like that. >> Waveform episode 345. Trivia question
01:49:25
number one. That was me pretending to be JSON >> Dulo. >> Sure. >> That's a sick username. J.Jason Derulo.
01:49:33
>> I think someone already has that. >> That has to be a real thing, right?
01:49:36
>> Yeah. That's pretty good. Um, >> we get sued. >> Where does Anthropic's Project Glass
01:49:43
Wing get its name? A, an experimental F1 rear wing design from the ground effect
01:49:49
era. B, a Central American butterfly with transparent wings. C, a type of parachute used by first
01:49:58
responders to jump into dense forest canopies. Or D, it's an acronym. General layer
01:50:06
analysis, excuse me, general layer analysis screening with integrated neural GPTs.
01:50:15
>> The whole time I you were saying glasswing, I just kept thinking of ducttails for some reason. That's all I
01:50:19
could think of. >> Don't know why. Is there a Darkwing? Darkwing duck. Okay, that's what I was
01:50:25
thinking of. >> Wow, what a reference. >> Wow, we all said the same thing.
01:50:30
>> What' you guys say? >> All three of us said butterfly. >> David drew a tooth for some reason. I
01:50:35
>> guys, I think that >> that means I'm getting worse. >> You are claim to be an artist
01:50:41
>> cuz you're all correct. >> On the blog post, they have a picture of
01:50:44
a butterfly. >> Oh, I didn't go to it during the podcast, but I was reading it.
01:50:49
>> But am I losing my sauce? >> No. Thank god. Alice, >> am I I used to be I used to deliver four
01:50:56
bangers. >> Yeah, but we never get >> We're still bangers. We never get points
01:51:00
>> on anthropic points on anthrop. Well, all three of you got points. So, it's as
01:51:03
if none of you got points. >> So, I still failed. >> That's true.
01:51:08
>> Um, it's called Glass Wing from the Butterfly because also all none of those
01:51:12
other three things are real. I made them all up. >> Yeah. Figured >> uh the metaphor can This is from
01:51:16
Anthropic's actual website in a uh in a what a one up here and what does the one
01:51:21
mean down there? Um, a footnote. Uh, the metaphor can be applied in two ways. The
01:51:28
butterflyy's transparent wings let it hide in plain sight, much like the vulnerabilities discussed in this post.
01:51:34
>> Semicolon. They also allow it to evade harm, like the transparency we're
01:51:39
advocating for in our approach. >> Transparency. Wow. Wow. >> They background their way into that or
01:51:45
what? >> They probably asked Claude. >> Somebody got a raise for coming up with
01:51:50
that line. >> Claude got a raise. What should we name this Claude? All right, quick update on the score
01:51:57
after that correct question. >> Yeah, >> Marquez with 21. >> Andrew with 22.
01:52:04
>> David in the lead with 25. >> 22. >> But I'm not around the trade. That's
01:52:09
trademark. Trademark. You're going to get careful. Careful. >> All right. When he initially made Linux,
01:52:17
Lionus Torvalds debated naming it something else. Was it A. Freaks? B, Wix, C, Tiger, or D, Torvvis.
01:52:31
>> You know what's crazy? He There's one thing that Adam left off there which he
01:52:36
was also considering, which was Lionus tech tips. He was way early. I don't know.
01:52:47
Flip him and read. What do we got? >> Oh, wow. >> Wow. Wow. You guys are locked in today.
01:52:51
>> Yeah, we're locked in. We're neural linked. >> Yeah. All of us said D. Torvaults.
01:52:57
>> Nope. Was it B? It was not B. Oh, good. >> It was also not C. It was A. Freaks.
01:53:04
>> No way. >> Yep. >> Well, I'm glad he didn't do that.
01:53:08
>> F R E A X. >> Yes, >> that is simply a bad acronym. >> Is that a reference to phone freaking or
01:53:14
is that just like you're a freak? >> What's phone freaking? >> Really fast. 30 second definition. Um,
01:53:20
phone old analog like landline phone dialers actually worked by tones. Like you have a thing like each button
01:53:25
creates a tone and then that tone, you know, does a program on the other side of the thing. So someone realized you
01:53:30
could hack into phones by generating tones and that was called freaking >> Yeah. But freak phone freaking was P H R
01:53:36
E A K I N. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So this was not that. >> It was the cool version.
01:53:41
>> Yeah. It was Taylor's version. >> NO, THAT'S ALSO CAREFUL, DAVID. CAREFUL. Lawsuit lawsuit
01:53:47
lawsuit lawsuit. And with that, the podcast was finally over. Again, if you have questions for
01:53:54
us, the comment section is always open, but if you made it this far, you can, of
01:53:58
course, go to waveforms survey.com and ask us whatever you want because we're going to do a bonus episode where
01:54:04
we actually answer those questions. So, take your time, come up with the best questions you possibly can. Leave your
01:54:09
whatever questions down below, but come up with the best questions for waveforms
01:54:13
survey.com and they'll be answered on a bonus episode. Other than that, thanks
01:54:17
for watching. Hopefully the astronauts touch down safely in the ocean. >> Wait, that's waveform with vowels, not
01:54:22
without vowels. That's wave. W A V E F O R M. Yes, >> good clarification. Hopefully now they
01:54:27
found it. I don't know whatever freaky website you went to before, but now they
01:54:31
found the correct survey website. All right, catch you next week. Peace. Waveform is produced by Adam Molina and
01:54:37
Ellis River and partner with Vox Media Podcast Network and Director Music was created by Vill.
01:54:41
>> You do that early, Adam. Speedun. Are you looking at the look of glass?
01:54:51
>> No, I'm looking at cosmic latte, which is the average. It is, see, it is, you
01:54:56
have to read this very carefully. The it describes the average color of the galaxy of the universe as perceived by a
01:55:02
typical human observer which to me says that the average is not actually in the visible wavelength typically. Okay.