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you've done um kind of an extraordinary job of staying apolitical. Do you ever
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wish you could break out of that? Why do you hate fun? Do you think AI creators are are are a
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threat? Do you ever feel guilty knowing that a bad review might tank a company?
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Yo, what is up people of the internet and welcome back to a very special episode of the Waveform podcast. I'm
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Michael and I'm Marquez. And look at me. Look at me. Yeah,
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I'm the captain. I'm I apologize. Perfect intro.
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I'm Michael Fisher. I'm a tech YouTuber. Uh, also known as Mr. Mobile. I'm a
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co-founder of Clicks Technology and I'm a Waveform fan, by the way. I
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don't know if you knew that. Thank you. I'm an aggressive podcast listener. And like for a long time, I was like, I have
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to keep I have to get around to Marquez's podcast. And I finally did. And I was like, hey, this is pretty good. What do you know? Nice.
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Uh I I I am not Marquez, but I I do get to steal his host chair for for this
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episode. Uh and I'm going to tell you what we're doing here. I'm going to ask him a bunch of questions uh that I've
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been saving up since the last time I got to interview you, which was actually 12
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years ago. I was going to say it's been a minute. Yeah. Back back at at Pocket Now when I You were still in your bedroom, I I
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believe. Yeah. You still had Honey Nut Cheerios in the back. I sure did. Yeah. I still have that box. Do you that very
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box? I might ask you about that later, but I don't think you're ever going to tell. Have you ever Well, look, we'll figure
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it out. We'll get there. First though, we're going to talk about the art of product reviews. We're going to talk about the differences between a review
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and an ad. We're going to talk about the evolving role of YouTube in in the tech world. And of course, we got to talk
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about the tech itself, right? Sure. Um, have you sound good? Have you forgiven me for the for the captain joke
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at the No, this is great. I thought it was ideal. Excellent. Right. Well, I want to start light. I don't want to jump right into
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the heavy stuff. I want to start with some tech questions just to get us uh get us loose. Sure. And and happy here. I I could not help but notice um that
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you are not daily driving a foldable. Why do you hate fun?
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The folds. Oh, that's a it's a really interesting question. I really like the folds and every time I test one, I
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always think, man, it's finally it. I'm finally going to be a fold person, right?
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And then I go back to because I review phones all the time. I'll go back to testing a slab and then I just end up
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using the slab anyway. Like I don't like I don't use the openness enough.
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I for me it's email, occasional social media drafting and like one or two other
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things. You're talking about the big boy foldables. You're talking about the wide boys. And so you're not even considering the clam shell. You're like, "No, never.
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Keep that away from me. It's fine." Yeah. Huh. Interesting. So yeah, I I mostly I'll have a foldable
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and I'll mostly use it closed. And the more I use it closed, the more I'm like, "Well, I should just be using a slab so I can have more battery and more
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screen." And you never miss that inside screen, huh? Like, well, I do miss it once in a while, but not enough to fully switch back.
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Okay. You think it'll change when Apple does one next year? Um, I honestly don't think so. For me
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personally, I still think I'm So, I have an I have a tablet that I use for tablet things.
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Interesting. So, for the the stuff that I would open my phone for but not go all the way to the tablet, there's like a very small
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number of things for me personally. So, I'm not dailying afoldable. Do you think that the category will
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continue to exist and and flourish? It's not going to go the way of of 3D phones then. No, I think it'll continue to exist. I
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think it's funny. Every time I see a foldable in the wild, I kind of think about like, what type of person is this?
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I was on a flight recently and the lady next to me had a Samsung Galaxy ZFold 7. Best place for a foldable.
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She never once closed it. Open the whole time. Open the whole time. Put it down next to her open. Picked it up open. Read emails
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open. Never once closed it. And I thought, that's a type. That's a type. Yes, it is. Yeah. Well, we can come back to that. I don't
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I don't want to beat Foldable's death right up top. Um, you're one of the few people I know who's uh as big a phone nerd as I am. If you could take and I'm
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sorry that you didn't listeners, viewers, we're Marquez has not heard these questions, the vast majority of
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them. So, I'm sorry you didn't get to prep for this one. Okay. If you could take any modern phone and the capabilities of any modern
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phone, stuff it into the casing of any old phone, what what bizarre Frankenstein's monster
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would you create? I can take only two phones or I can take a bunch of phones. Oh man. Um, you can choose as many
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capabilities of a modern phone as you want, but you have to stuff it all into the same casing from the past.
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Sure. Okay. Now, anytime anyone says uh old phone, I always have to
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contextualize, right? I'm 31. An old phone to me is 10 years old.
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So, not a Galaxy S3. Like that's, you know, I was going almost that far back. I was going HTC1.
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Oh, the 1M7, the aluminum block, the boom sound speakers.
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And back in the day, they had uh Yeah. Well, they had a Google Play edition of this phone back in the day, and I loved
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that. But I would take like like a modern Pixel, for example, but
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also give me a Snapdragon 8 Gite or something like that and stuff it into that old
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aluminum wonder. I think that would be a sick phone. That would be a great phone. Would you keep Beats, by the way? Like, would you
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could you would you retain the Beats audio on the Boom Sound? Doesn't matter too much. I mean, it was kind of nice. I like the way they
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sounded and they were big front-facing speakers and someone who watches videos on the phone. Awesome. Uh, but I think that was a single camera
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on the back, so I guess just give me the primary, you know, pixel camera. Give me a nice black AMOLED. Give me
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like Yeah, give me all the all the software. Okay. All right. Could Yeah, I didn't expect you to go that that recent cuz I
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like I think old phones and I'm not 31. So, yeah. I think a lot of people when I say old phone go way further back than that.
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Yeah. I'm like, give me a flip phone with a hinge that reverses the display and like put it down and like Yeah, give me a StarTech rainbow edition.
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Uh, okay. Last last little warm-up question. What uh is your absolute favorite gadget right now? So to
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clarify, not a phone, not a car, not a laptop. Yeah, certainly not a tablet. Sure. Uh Hasselblad X2D Mark II.
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This is a camera. This is a camera. Unfortunately, it's a $7,000 medium format camera. It's
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extremely unattainable and ridiculous. It's It's almost absurd. Is that why it's your favorite? Because
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the absurdity or because it does something amazing? A little bit of both. Like I I'd used
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and and talked about house cameras in the past being so slow and clunky and immobile that it like forces me to be
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more intentional with each photo. And you can blast all the smartphone photos you want, but when you're you're sitting down and you're taking one
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photo, you take your time with it with a Hasselblad and it's partially because it sucks at autofocus and like the whole
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thing is just slow to shoot with. You have to take your time. Kind of bad, right? But this new one is the 100
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megapixel medium format formula, but also with the speed of phase detect
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autofocus and continuous autofocus and and and built-in HDR and just all these
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other things that make it like almost like daily driving a supercar. It's like this weird crazy fun thing.
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So, it preserves the intentionality but doesn't make it hurt as much when you're using it. Yes. Yes. It preserves a lot of the
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intentionality but like opens a couple more doors. Got it. Yeah, I was using I was out up at out of
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upstate with my girlfriend this past weekend and she was using Diso. You ever use that on the iPhone? Oh, yeah. Was that David Doi's app or
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something? I believe so. I don't know. But I YouTuber. It mimics a disposable camera on your iPhone. And I I actually liked
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that not just for the style, but for what you described just then of this like kind of you're going to take one shot, you're
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going to set up, you're going to do one, and if it doesn't come out, well, sorry, the moment's gone. Exactly. Right. You missed it. I love
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that. That's good. We might come back to that at the end about intentionality. Yeah. Let's talk. Let's get serious now.
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Yeah. Uh on the life and work of a YouTuber, you know you Well, you've been living it
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for 15 years. Mhm. Uh I've been doing it for almost as long. Do you still feel like you're capable of
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speaking to the products you review in a way that's relevant to a modern audience? Or do you feel like pressure
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or or concern that the audience is going to get younger and younger and you're gonna have a harder and harder time
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doing that? Oh, interesting. That's not where I thought you were going. Uh, so yeah, I do I do think I I it's a skill
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that that you develop as you as you make pieces of content to share to the masses. You have to understand those
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masses, right? And so, yeah, as I've made more videos, I've gotten better at talking to the
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same masses, but then the masses grow and include new groups of people that I
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have to also think about. younger people, for example. Yeah. Uh or even in the specific case of
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reviewing tech products, the people that make the product, like there's a lot of consideration when it
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comes to like all the parts of the audience. Uh but I think so. I think that's one of
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the skills I've developed. Yeah. Do you think you'll be able to consistently hone that skill? Because I
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mean people, you know, the audience will continue being replenished at the low end to get really dark. It'll keep, you
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know, evaporating at the high end. That's true. Yeah. And I mean, at what point, because I I I'm putting myself
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into this question because I feel like I've already I decided at some point that I was going to not focus on the on
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the youths. Yeah. And I think that's a trap that YouTubers can fall into is to uh is to
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see the the availab like the eyeballs of like the younger audience and to try to
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cater towards them. And when you are a young person, it makes sense. Like when I started as a 14-year-old, I was making videos,
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believe it or not, for other 14-year-olds who were into tech. As a 31-year-old, it feels a little less
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natural to make videos for 14-year-olds, and it will continue to feel less and less natural. So, I think the idea
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basically is to continue to talk to audiences that are similar to me in some way at the expense of maybe some of the
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the youth eyeballs, and I think that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. Cool. It also prevents you from falling
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into the trap of like patronizing or, you know, like talking. I do think that. Yeah. It kind of feels
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Yeah. bad. Yeah. Yeah, let's talk about the stuff we're covering. I mean, since we last spoke,
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the smartphone world has settled into this like really dull predictability in my opinion. Even the foldables, even the
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exotic categories, especially in the US. Yeah. In China is still doing really fun
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stuff, but we can't get a lot of them here. So, have you found ways of keeping phones interesting to you or have you
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had to or have you not had to? Like I I've had to find new ways of of of
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keeping myself interested in the job. Totally. I the the part that keeps it
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interesting to me is the stories. The stories behind why certain things
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change, the stories behind the releases or the hype or the failed features or
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whatever, there's always a story behind it. Yes. So, even if like we're reviewing the OnePlus 15 this week,
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which is another phone. We are indeed, right? Yeah. Uh there are so many ways that this this
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could be just a boring video of like, yeah, it's it's got the new chip and it's got the new RAM and the new software and it's it's another slab
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paint job. Yeah. But finding a theme or finding a reason why they did something that you didn't
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expect them to do or went backwards a little bit and trying to wrap that all into a video, the storytelling part keeps it interesting to me. Even if I'm
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not sitting there going, "Wow, what a phone." It's the It's the behind the scenes of the production of telling that
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story. Yeah. That is the interesting part to me. Does that hold true for phones that you
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like I mean the OnePlus 15 maybe is is an example of this. I know for me I'm not going to name them but I know for me every time a phone a
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particular phone comes out every year there are two or three where I'm like I would not given the choice I would not cover this but it's too newsworthy. I
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have to cover it. Yeah. What is the ratio of that to you? Like if you had to mix them down, if you had
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to say like, "All right, here's a video I really want to do about a product I'm really interested in versus here's the thing that I have to do because if I
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don't, I can't support the channel." Like, we have to make money. We have to stay relevant. We preserve authority.
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That's such a good question. I think it's almost 100% videos I want to make. There are there are maybe way
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and I'll tell you why. Because there's there are two or three or four that come to mind or five that are like content
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strategy decisions like a new colorway for a phone that already exists or an unboxing for a phone where we already
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know what comes in the box, right? But I am such a content strategy nerd
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that the fact that the tech is that interesting and outweighs what's in the
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content is interesting to me. It's it's this weird thing where like yeah 97% of the videos I'm excited about it and I
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can't wait to make this video and then it's the new red iPhone colorway for example, right?
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Yeah. I know you didn't want to say a name of a phone but like that's one of them. It's like okay that's that's a video
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where I ordinarily would not cover it and there's so many other examples of that but I know that
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when this video publishes it's going to get three and a half million views for some reason. Why? That's interesting to
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me. Yeah. And so I'll I'll make the video and I'll acknowledge it in the video like you guys are already commenting
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that this is a useless video but I just want you to keep scrolling down a little bit and you see the view count. That's why this video exists and it's
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supporting other videos on the channel and that's interesting to me. Ah so there's a lot going on. Obviously the
00:13:21
new phone is not interesting but that is a broad use of the word interesting but I I'll take it. No.
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Yeah. The content strategy and I the tactic itself the strategy itself is Yeah. Yeah. And I think I've I've told
00:13:33
the octopus analogy a million times, but I've distilled one of my functions in this studio environment as the content
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strategist, so I I pay a lot of attention to that. Is that an arm you're ever going to cut off? That's one of the hearts I'm never
00:13:44
cutting out. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Got it. Um, one of the ways I've found of of keeping things fresh, cuz I it's funny,
00:13:50
I don't have that same perspective, and I think it's a really useful one. I've had to change the videos themselves to
00:13:57
keep myself interested to often times to the detriment of the videos. Um, you you remember when ASUS did that space
00:14:04
edition laptop a couple years ago? They It was like It was like a NASA edition. They had an OLED on the cover. It was
00:14:09
all like gray like a piece of spatial equipment. I was like, "This is cool enough on its own, but I'm going to take it to Kennedy
00:14:15
Space Center and review it there and watch a rocket launch, right?" And I was I just crossed an ocean to
00:14:21
and to break a record nobody knows about because I couldn't bear to do another smartwatch review the same way. M um but
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there's a sacrifice there because in that example uh ocean liner nerds are going to love half the video and they're
00:14:34
not going to care about the watches and vice versa. The space one is just ridiculous. So you don't do a lot of
00:14:41
those often, but you did one recently the top five sports tech. Mhm. That was it was really fun. And one of
00:14:47
the most upvoted comments there was like it's really fun to see Marquez like get excited about not that you not that you
00:14:53
don't get excited about tech but like you felt like you were showing us a part of yourself that we don't get to see
00:14:59
very often. Sure. But you know first of all would you like to do more of those or can we expect you
00:15:05
to do more of those or or not? Was that just a uh definitely yes it is exciting specifically because it is a challenge
00:15:11
that I don't get a lot of reps at. I get a lot of reps at new smartphone is coming out. You have an audience
00:15:17
interested in tech. How do you tell this tech story to this audience? Yeah. I do not have a lot of reps at
00:15:22
new sports tech is available that's specifically better for your recovery between workouts and a thing that you do
00:15:30
on the side that nobody hears about very often. How do you tell that story or share that in a way that's interesting
00:15:36
to these people? Yeah, absolutely. And you're just a different challenge, right? So I for me that keeps me
00:15:42
energized in the in the process but you had the same issue I noticed like that video underperformed compared to your
00:15:48
usual format. Does that bother you at all or is it just an example of like no sometimes I got to make a video for me?
00:15:54
Yeah. No, it's it's uh you've heard so many times the one for me one for them type thing. That was one for me. M
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there is also a content strategy part of my brain uh that's looking at the area
00:16:07
under the curve where like I know that people are not going to watch the iPhone
00:16:12
15 review 2 years later like tech when it's timely has this really big spike at the beginning and
00:16:19
then an incredibly short tale right you know about this like super short tail but these more evergreen as we call them
00:16:26
videos because they are not extremely timely and it's just a sports tech video super
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small initial curve, but a way longer tail in a way that the area under the curve in 5 years will probably be better than
00:16:39
an old gadget review. Yeah. So, I don't mind it underperforming now. Makes sense. And YouTube gives you that bone often on the analytics. It'll be
00:16:45
like, not fewer people are choosing to watch this video, but they're watching for longer. Exactly. And that's a good indicator for when I check back in 5 years.
00:16:52
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Good call. Um, do you This is a weird question because it's one I've been thinking
00:16:58
about for myself recently. Do you have a preference for how people watch your videos? By which I mean like if you can
00:17:04
envision the ideal scenario for someone who is consuming an MKBHD video, do like is it someone on a tablet on a commute
00:17:11
or on a couch on a big screen TV or like on a phone in a toilet? Like what where
00:17:17
do you where do you where do you want people to be to watch an MKB? I'm hoping phone on the toilet. No, I 100%. Phone in the shower is the real
00:17:23
move. Yeah. Right. That's a I've never been asked that before. And when you started saying that, what I pictured was how
00:17:29
often I watch videos, which is on a desktop in a browser switching to 4K
00:17:36
full screening and kicking back a little bit. Okay. And like really watching the video. Yeah. And maybe that's how I watch it cuz I
00:17:42
make videos and so that's just a unique behavior. Yeah. Um, but I do hope that there's
00:17:48
some version of like appreciating the small details while they're I hope they replay stuff once in a while just to
00:17:53
catch something that they might have missed. Sure. Um, but yeah, I mean, we upload these videos in 4K for a reason. So hopefully
00:18:00
a few people are watching uh in the highest resolution like I'm trying to. Yeah, of course.
00:18:05
Yeah, for me it's I I like I would like it if people watched YouTube like I watch YouTube, which is on a big screen TV on
00:18:11
my couch. You're the one of the TV viewers. I'm one of the TV guys. I hear about these TV viewers and I'm like it's a it dude it's a lifestyle man.
00:18:19
You open the TV app. Yeah. And you scroll. Are you homepage and you're just seeing what pops up?
00:18:24
I am homepaging and my algorithm is really well tuned now. I got a lot of Edmond Fitzgerald content this year.
00:18:30
It's got to be cuz if you're subscription box is one place, but the home feed the more you use it the more
00:18:35
it's tuned. Trouble with the subscription box on the TV is it shows you shorts. Not trying to
00:18:40
watch shorts on a TV. It does. And it plays them. Yeah. That's annoying. Is it a carousel when you open a short?
00:18:46
I don't know. I've never done it. Okay, good. Don't find out. I won't. I'm not giving it that signal
00:18:51
that I approve. It's funny. The videos um 15 years ago, a long tech video was 7 minutes long.
00:18:57
I know. Yeah. Now, a short tech video is 7 minutes long. 100%. Yeah. And I think that's correlated pretty
00:19:02
directly with a lot more TV viewers. And YouTube talks about this all the time. And I've noticed it and I'm happy that
00:19:09
you're one of the TV viewers. That is really interesting. Me, too. And thank you for the thank you pandemic lockdown. I think that's what
00:19:14
did it. Sure. Yeah. Um we're we're talking about it already. I just want to touch on it. Uh long form
00:19:20
is obviously your bread and butter. Uh because I don't watch short form. I don't know the answer to this question.
00:19:26
What about short form? Like how how important is it to your to your strategy? Um and and and and more
00:19:32
interesting to me. Is it something you do because you have to or is it exciting to you in any way? It's changed. So uh I love content
00:19:40
strategy questions. This is right up my alley. I've thought a lot about this. Yes, long form is my bread and butter.
00:19:45
Always has been, probably always will be. But you see the proliferation of shorts. They're everywhere and they're exploding
00:19:52
in popularity. And you go to one of these YouTube creator summits and all they're talking about is short
00:19:58
form and it kind of feels like I have to be in short form. So that was the beginning. I made a
00:20:03
shorts channel separately. I was like, my audience doesn't want this, but let me see how it does. eventually find a
00:20:08
way to like bring it to the main channel and like mix shorts in. But as I'm making these shorts, I'm learning a lot
00:20:14
about how to make shorts, how I think about what a short vertical video is, and maybe how it can drive viewership to
00:20:22
the long videos as well, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's it slowly became more and more of I want to be good at this and speak
00:20:29
this language and make it also my bread and butter. And my shorts went from every single one being 59 and a half
00:20:35
seconds because I suck at compressing this stuff into shorts, right? Into like, wow, we just made one that
00:20:41
was 25 seconds and it was the best one that we've made. And it it's become a very conscious part of the content
00:20:47
strategy. It's the top of the funnel. It'll just go out and take viewers and the funnel and people
00:20:54
will find the long form. Yeah, that's the right way to think about it. This is not a question. This is a compliment. like because it's the
00:20:59
opposite of how I do it, you know, in some ways I'm an old man, right? And actually, in a lot of ways, I'm an old man. And and I remember getting pushed
00:21:05
real hard by an agent at one point who wanted to rep me who was like, "Listen, you got to be on you got to be on on TikTok." And I said, "I really don't
00:21:11
want to be." And he's like, "You got to skate to where you got to go to where the people are." Like, I get that. Also, if I
00:21:17
wanted to spend every day doing something I didn't want to do, I would just get a regular job. And um you that's been okay for me. But
00:21:25
I think the the move is instead to say this is difficult. This is something I'm not used to. Let me do it. Let me get
00:21:31
good at it. Now, do you like doing it? I like it. Yeah. And I kind of view I've changed again the lens through like,
00:21:38
dang, we should do a short every single day. I've had to think about like, okay, what is a good short?
00:21:44
How do I measure the success of a short? Um, what do I think is a good idea versus a maybe okay idea for a short?
00:21:51
And all these new different interesting questions. So yeah, now I enjoy making them of new challenges that you can
00:21:57
excel at. Exactly. The new challenge of like I think we just had this set we were talking about on Waveform that 700,000
00:22:04
watch hours of shorts in the past 3 months which is like a crazy number. But the fact that those
00:22:11
people just swiped and it was just served to them, that is some person that may find the
00:22:17
channel that wouldn't have. It may. Do you find that that is is the case? Because I think that's one of my things about short form that I don't
00:22:22
like is like it seems like it's this fire hose. My friend David Kogan pointed this out to me. He's like this isn't for like no one is noticing who's making the
00:22:29
content. They're just watching it. If they like it, they're swiping on to the next one. You don't Yeah, very valid. Yeah, I think you have
00:22:34
to do your shorts in a way that makes the character presenting very quickly
00:22:40
memorable. Um like if you're a Mr. Beast, you don't have to do that. Like the second they see your face, they know you're Mr.
00:22:45
Beast, right? Um, but if I'm scrolling shorts and I see like a person like
00:22:51
handing like showing me a product, to me that feels a little like an ad. Yes. And I'm not thinking I want to watch that.
00:22:56
But if I get like a nice hook and then a person, maybe it's not an ad. Maybe now it's
00:23:02
just a really interesting thing this person found and that's a little more appealing. So I'm think, you know, there's no science to it yet. This is
00:23:07
just like random things I'm like spewing out, but like and seeing what works. Yeah, there are certain things that seem to work better as far as like getting
00:23:13
your character to appear in shorts, which helps people remember that they've seen the character before and maybe
00:23:20
subscribe more quickly than if they hadn't remembered it. Got it. Yeah. All right. Good. I should be taking
00:23:25
notes on this. I'm going to listen to this episode later when I have to do shorts. Yeah. Do you think um
00:23:30
I mean I feel like I I know the answer to this question, but do you feel like short form is a threat to long form or will it always be a complement to it?
00:23:36
I think it's a compliment to it. At first it was like, is this taking out of the pie? It's just a whole new pie,
00:23:41
which doesn't happen very often. No. True. But like Tik Tok made a whole new pie and then YouTube came along, added
00:23:47
shorts, and it's like long form viewership is doing better than ever, but clearly there's a whole new pie. Yeah.
00:23:52
Yeah. Speaking of threats, do you think AI creators are are are a threat to to us?
00:23:57
Like is is a fake Not necessarily a fake, Marquez, just like is a fake army of of unreal people going to unseat us?
00:24:08
intrinsically no because I have this belief with no founding evidence that
00:24:16
people want to watch people. Mhm. But there is evidence of successful AI
00:24:23
creators. There are and I I think I just believe that they are successful because of the novelty of
00:24:29
a successful AI creator. Yeah. And I think if it's all lowest common denominator AI slop, then it's all
00:24:35
bottom feeder slop and it's not like standing out spike and then people will be like, "No,
00:24:41
you know what? I'd rather have a real person." A person. Yeah. I I still believe that to be true, although I can't really
00:24:46
prove it yet. I know. Neither can I. And I I It's funny. If If there were any wood in this room, I would knock on it.
00:24:53
It's all fake wood and laminate and like mesh and metal. It's all very nice, though. I like it. I like it a lot. It's clean. Um, one more
00:25:00
on the creator economy, then I want to ask you another question. It's um, it's a fickle thing, the creator economy. I mean, in in our specific corner of it,
00:25:06
we're almost entirely dependent on external factors. Companies have to release products that we can review.
00:25:12
Sponsors have to continue finding our content worthwhile or worth paying for. Do you ever feel like, as I do every
00:25:19
day, that it could collapse at any moment? Oh, wow. Like a bubble? Not like a bubble because there's actual
00:25:25
value here. Yeah. Yeah. We've moved on from AI. Yeah. Uh cuz I think when when you say collapse,
00:25:31
it almost implies like that it's being held up by something flimsy like it could collapse, right? And I don't feel like that, but I
00:25:37
feel like there I've heard people, you know, speculate and and I've heard people try to track, you know, the downward trend in in sponsor spends.
00:25:45
Um you know, obviously the creator space is getting more full with more creators every day. Influencers are are, you
00:25:52
know, it feels like there's a million introduced to the flow every minute. It's getting diluted. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and maybe if it doesn't collapse
00:25:58
overnight, maybe if it helps, don't visualize that. But do do you feel like it this could all go away with with very
00:26:04
short notice? So, so like for an individual channel, maybe yes. Um,
00:26:10
and and I think that's just because there's more competition, there's more uh parody than ever before.
00:26:16
So, if this new device comes out and 60 videos come out about it, why watch
00:26:22
mine? like that make that to an extent makes it feel like I'm just one of the dots, you know. Yeah.
00:26:28
Um but I think once you've built up which I think you have
00:26:33
some sort of a base of people who are interested in what you have to say which and that comes with a lot of reps and a
00:26:38
lot of proving yourself and being honest and trustworthy. People care about what you have to say. Sure. And I think that that is enough of like
00:26:45
a nucleus to keep it alive. Um whether there's more or less around you.
00:26:50
Yeah. I've always said that if you have something when people come to as I'm sure they do to you hundreds by the day uh what what are what is your advice for
00:26:56
an upand cominging creator and I always say if you have something different to say or a different way of saying it then
00:27:02
it's worth doing. Sure. Right. Totally. Yeah. Um just for a fun thought experiment
00:27:08
if it did if it did end tomorrow. Okay. And uh if we assume for the purposes of this question that you've
00:27:15
somehow managed to save zero dollars over the past 15 years what would you do for money? What would you do for a job?
00:27:20
You know what's funny? Initially, so my channel goes away, but the economy still exists. Yeah. So, initially,
00:27:27
well, what I went to school for and what I went to college thinking that I was going to do was that I was going to work
00:27:33
in marketing for a tech company that works with creators. I thought I would be on the other side
00:27:39
of that email chain that I'm on now. Interesting. Okay. So, in a world where insert tech company here needs a
00:27:46
campaign for a new product, they have a marketing manager that organizes it, you
00:27:51
know, decides they want to work with creators, does that whole thing. I thought that would be me. Okay. And I think I'd still have that skill
00:27:58
cuz I've seen it. I think I I would probably do that. So, you would It's It's so interesting
00:28:03
because you wouldn't leave the world like you would just be on the other side of it, right? I have the the the baseline of knowledge useful to to be valuable in
00:28:10
that world still. See, that's funny. That's a smart answer. I I wouldn't look at I you'd
00:28:16
never find me with a camera in my hand again. I would be a tour bus driver at Kennedy Space Center. That would be my specifically. That's sick. I mean, I
00:28:24
would love to have a much more interesting like a novel answer where I like I mean, obviously I play a sport that I
00:28:30
really like, but that's not really a full-time job. So, it's like I I kind of don't have anything like that. Like, it would be cool. It would. Yeah.
00:28:36
Full-time ultimate frisbee professional. But it sure would. That wouldn't really work, would it? It's See, that's that's a shame cuz, you
00:28:42
know, you're great at it, apparently. Yeah. All right, let's pivot. We're going to
00:28:48
talk about making things. I love that. Yeah. Marquez the maker. Mhm. Um I am a co-founder of a of an
00:28:54
accessory company called Clicks Technology. Makes physical keyboards for smartphones. And you are now the chief
00:28:59
creative partner at Ridge. Yes. Neither of which was true when we last spoke. So, this is a fun new chapter for
00:29:06
us both. I'm going to ask you what everyone now asks me. Okay. Okay. Just world's most predictable
00:29:11
question. How does being the builder of a product change the way you cover products? Oh, like
00:29:16
do you have the urge that I had to suppress for a minute to to use a softer touch because now you know how hard it
00:29:23
is to make something, right? Yeah. I think actually part of why I
00:29:28
enjoy being on the maker side more is I have so much more exposure to and more knowledge about like how hard it is and
00:29:34
what types of challenges and decisions go into making things. Yeah. Um so I think you could argue that it
00:29:41
has impacted my coverage just in that I consider more of these things and sometimes it probably sounds like I'm
00:29:47
defending some more things that seem uncomprehensible. Yeah. On the surface,
00:29:52
right? Um, but I think yeah, like I said earlier, like I know that the people who are about to buy the product are
00:29:59
watching it. I also know that the people who just worked for years on making the product are also watching this. And so
00:30:04
it would be naive to not include that perspective in my coverage. So I I think there is a fair amount of like uh yeah,
00:30:11
understanding that side of it. I don't think it makes it softer. I just think it's better to understand why decisions went into making the thing.
00:30:18
Same. Yeah. I remember like I'll look at some of my old reviews and I'll I'll criticize the selection of a component
00:30:23
and it's like okay like fair criticism but it's it's so much better when you can say like I get why they had to like
00:30:30
the yields weren't there they couldn't you know you can't buy for example I don't know what silicon carbon you can't
00:30:35
buy it in that in these these yet yeah exactly that's a good example there's I'll I'll notice myself using
00:30:40
phrases like it seems like they or you know what I think they were
00:30:45
thinking like that sort of thing what maybe they were up which again is good for storytelling. Like if I just go
00:30:51
and think, you know, I'm very black and white. Like this good, this bad, can't believe they did that, that's a little
00:30:57
boring. But I think if you go like tell the story of the person making the
00:31:02
product in the product, that's way more interesting. What you're describing is almost the inverse of something that I've found like this law that I have yet to name,
00:31:09
but it it it is my theory that on social media or Reddit, any response from somebody that starts with the phrase or
00:31:15
a variation of the phrase, "Why didn't they just doesn't have enough understanding of how things are made. Valid,
00:31:20
right? That needs a name. Yeah, it does. We got Let's Let's come up with with something.
00:31:34
Do you remember when BlackBerry did the BlackBerry 10 launch and the chief creative officer or
00:31:41
whatever was Alicia Keys? Yes. Yes. In what ways are you not the Alicia Keys
00:31:46
of Ridge? Oh, valid. All right. Because I get asked this at Clickers, like, "Are you just the hype man?" I'm like, "No, I just work on the product. I
00:31:52
do this other stuff, but like yes, I'm the most visible face attached to it." So, yeah. Okay. So, with all due respect to
00:31:57
the goat Alicia Keys, of course. And sorry, no disrespect. Apologies. Big fan. Appreciate you. But I have no
00:32:03
idea what she knows about Blackberries or phones or any of that. Right. What I can say is that Ridge was like the
00:32:09
perfect partner for me personally because I had so many ideas for products I wanted to work on and things that I
00:32:15
wanted to change in the like everyday carry space which is where they were primo like positioned like they did
00:32:21
wallets already but there's so much everyday carry stuff. Yeah. Watch bands and all that stuff. Right. Exactly. Power banks. A little bit of
00:32:27
technology stuff too. And and we're working on more stuff that I'll try not to accidentally say out loud. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, go ahead. Go ahead.
00:32:33
You know, feel free. But the idea just here is that like I they're a small enough company that I have some input in
00:32:40
steering and creating and innovating, but they're a big enough company that they can actually do it,
00:32:45
right? So like I could have worked with insert smaller company here who also has ambitions to making a cool thing and I
00:32:50
suggest a power bank with Mags safe and these cables and this material and they go great idea. We can't get supply
00:32:58
enough to make that maybe in five years we can do it. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And there's also a version of like Nike or something where
00:33:05
I'm like I have all these ideas for a product and they're like cool but we're Nike so we're going to make you the
00:33:10
thing and we're going to hand it to you and you're going to put your name on it and that's the end of the story. Right. Yeah. So thankfully they're they're right in
00:33:16
the middle and it's been really awesome so far. Do you get people on social like
00:33:22
misperceiving misunderstanding your role? Um, you know, I'm heavy into product design,
00:33:29
product championing, all that stuff. But people come to me on social media for for like everything from shipping delays
00:33:34
to u, you know, product like feedback support. Yeah. How do you even handle that? Cuz I can't
00:33:41
Here's the thing. If I ignore it, you get some you get a lot more inbound than I do. But if I ignore it, I feel like I'm ignoring a customer. That
00:33:46
doesn't feel good. Like I have to hand off everybody to people who can actually do things. Sure. in the office cuz I'm sitting there being like, "No, I'm I'm busy
00:33:53
deciding whether a space bar should be a millimeter shorter." Yeah, that's probably a valid way of handling it. I mean, I feel like I don't
00:33:59
know if anyone thinks I'm running tech support at Ridge, but it's like if I was in your position, obviously you make it
00:34:04
very clear what you work on and the input that you have and like the decisions that you make that go into the final thing. You can point at those
00:34:10
things. Um, but yeah, it's like this is a company with a lot of other people who work on a lot of other parts of this and
00:34:17
someone is inevitably closer to that than I am. So, yeah, take it away. I think that's probably the best way to handle it.
00:34:22
Yeah. Yeah. Um, can you uh can you see a world where you flip the script and go from full-time reviewer and part-time product
00:34:29
maker to the exact opposite? Uh, I enjoy making videos too much.
00:34:36
But actually, now that I think about your phrasing, yes. I think like full-time maker, part-time reviewer is
00:34:45
probably more sustainable. Yeah. like the treadmill isn't as fast.
00:34:50
There's not as much work. You get off the hamster wheel, which is nice. Yeah, we're on a hamster wheel. Whether we like it or not, like we stop driving
00:34:57
this Uber, it stops making money. Right. Exactly. Right. So, I think Yeah, the goal is to build
00:35:02
something that can exist without your daily input. Mh. And then that allows you to take the
00:35:09
foot off the gas for the thing that's like the passion project, which maybe you'd make a few less videos, but you'd
00:35:15
still make videos, right? I think I could see that. Yeah. Yeah, I think that would be a cooler balance at some point. Yeah.
00:35:20
Let's get back to reviewing. You happy with that? I love reviewing. It's good. We're It's my favorite thing. We're bouncing around here. I like it. I
00:35:27
want to talk about a Scourge that has visited our our segment. I'm not going to not going to call out any names. Some
00:35:34
of them are my friends. But I've seen this thing happening. I wonder if you've seen it, too. People who are doing phone reviews.
00:35:39
Mhm. Uh carrying their the phone that they're reviewing. Mhm. without their personal SIM inside
00:35:45
of it or without any SIM inside of it and while they have their main iPhone in the other pocket. I see this a lot.
00:35:50
Yeah. Yeah. Do you swap into every phone you review? You you've got your primary SIM in in
00:35:56
whatever you're reviewing. Yes. And this is why I overreacted to eSIM.
00:36:02
The OnePlus. So, I'm an AT&T person. Oh, interesting. And I did. You try to put AT&T on your
00:36:08
OnePlus 15? I'm a I'm a T-Mobile guy and I'm a Verizon guy for reviews. Okay, that makes perfect sense cuz I tried to put
00:36:13
my AT&T SIM in the OnePlus 15 and it wasn't approved for the network yet. They have this whole long approval process, so I couldn't put my main SIM
00:36:19
in it. So, I'm talking to OnePlus about it. They shipped me a T-Mobile SIM, blah blah blah. It It is annoying, but yes, I
00:36:26
do main the device cuz you learn way more about it by maning it. Absolutely. You are forced to use it.
00:36:32
Exactly. And to live through its its not only live through its flaws, but then find potential workarounds for its
00:36:38
flaws. Cuz if I So that you can keep doing your thing. Exactly. If I run into a flaw, not maning it, I swap to the other phone and
00:36:44
solve the problem. But if I'ming that phone, I find a flaw, I get around it, and I figure out that, okay, you can
00:36:50
still use this phone despite this flaw. I learn way more that way. Yes. But it is so annoying sometimes.
00:36:56
Absolutely. Yeah. Here's the thing. In the States, we have the blue bubble, green bubble thing. Does that introduce
00:37:01
problems into your personal life? Do you have to tell like So I And I famously carry two phones.
00:37:06
Same basically for this exact reason. It's It's not in my username, but it's like it's not just a Twitter handle. It's a
00:37:12
lifestyle. It's a lifestyle. Exactly. So, yes. Um there are notoriously things
00:37:17
that I just do on the iPhone because they are better to do on the iPhone. Sure. When I man a phone, my iPhone use goes
00:37:24
down a bit. Like my screen on time is like an hour a day or less or whatever. Yeah. Um
00:37:30
but yeah, when I'm testing iPhones, then my Android use goes down, but the the iPhone's like twice a year or whatever, so it's not that not that hard.
00:37:37
True. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. I don't know. I And I've always got the iPhone in my backpack as a B-roll camera. And I'm sure that's
00:37:43
nice. Probably probably the case for you, too. I got two pockets. Well, yeah. All right. What? So, you're
00:37:49
just saying you're not a backpack man? No, I have a backpack, but I got two SIMs. Oh, well, yeah. So, I have my main SIM in the Android
00:37:56
phone. I have my second SIM in the iPhone. Okay. And then I also have a backpack full of
00:38:01
crap, which is probably not healthy. The way it goes. No, that's Yeah. Um, what let's talk about reviews of
00:38:08
nonphones for for for a second. You got famously uh some backlash on your
00:38:13
reviews of the Rabbit R1 and Humane AI pen, which is confusing to me because they're both unquestionably great
00:38:18
products. Um, yeah, that's what I was about to say.
00:38:23
Do you think that people I you know to to you know I think everyone knows what the backlash was but it was like there
00:38:28
was this criticism that you were you know perhaps being glib flippant or not forgiving enough of these new companies
00:38:35
and you know one of them failed as a business uh and then you know Fisker there's we've had these a lot of these
00:38:42
examples do you think people would have responded so negatively a decade ago given the same products or has something
00:38:49
changed about the way people view or understand reviews recently or
00:38:56
semi-reently? I I think that's a really good question. I I think it actually is in the scale of
00:39:04
what we do a little bit more um socially people love punching up and
00:39:10
hate punching down. Mhm. And I think you know 5 10 years ago when we had smaller channels and it was
00:39:18
seemingly less impactful on the product to give it a negative mirror. You would say something bad about a product said
00:39:24
didn't matter. It was what it was that the company was going to do its thing. It's punching up. Mhm. And I think people for whatever reason
00:39:29
saw the balance tipping and and finally it was me with ex subscribers and
00:39:36
startup. It felt like punching down felt like bullying and they didn't like that as much. Right.
00:39:41
My perspective didn't change. My methodology didn't change. I'm still reviewing it as like, should you buy this or not? Clearly, no. This is
00:39:48
actually one of the worst things I've ever reviewed. But because it felt like punching down, there was a bit more of that like push
00:39:54
back and reaction, which is understandable. Yes. Now, do you think that I have I have a pet theory. Mhm.
00:40:00
I think that there the recent change that is relevant here is that influencer
00:40:05
um influencer coverage of products has multiplied like 11 million fold in the
00:40:11
in the past decade. And that is almost universally positive coverage. It's not
00:40:17
review content on on the whole. It's almost always like I'm here at this very exciting thing and
00:40:23
look and now it's blue or whatever. And I feel like that has changed the
00:40:28
expectation broadly for like, oh, I'm watching product focused content. It's probably going to be good.
00:40:34
And when it's negative, people maybe get bumped by that. And it's like, this guy
00:40:39
sure doesn't know how to how to like a new thing. Interesting. Yeah. I don't know. It's a theory. I I have no
00:40:45
data to back it up. I I think uh Well, I'll give you one of my theories, please. And well, it's not a theory. I guess
00:40:51
it's an observation which is basically that when I started 15 years ago in order to stand out uh in YouTube's
00:40:58
landscape being a tech channel was enough. I was like oh I I make tech videos. Oh that's the kind of channel you are. Got it. Got it.
00:41:04
It's like a niche. Yeah. Yeah. And a few years later it was like oh I make okay I make software tutorials which is
00:41:11
a part of tech but you know you can make gadget videos or whatever. So that was a segment of it.
00:41:16
And then now, you know, go to fast forward to 2020, 2025. There is the tech channel, but there's also the unboxing
00:41:23
channel. There is the unboxing and destroy it channel. There is the uh review channel. There's the only reviews
00:41:29
Apple products channel. There's the only positively reviews Apple products channel. There's the only negatively
00:41:36
reviews Apple's competitors channel. Like there's everyone has a tiny slot that they live in to stand out and be a
00:41:42
little bit different. And I think you saw way more negative uh sentiment as a
00:41:48
way of standing out. And so now there's way more videos of whatever comes out, I got something
00:41:54
negative to say about it. Sure. Right. And that was kind of like a weird byproduct of like the niche being more
00:41:59
saturated. Yeah, that's interesting. There is like a flip side to my example, right? Yeah. Oh god. But then there's that that
00:42:07
pressure exists to counter whatever is out there, right? Especially with the with what people kind of talk about which is like
00:42:13
how early you are in the wave of of like a product comes out and there's the initial wave the cycle is like okay
00:42:19
everyone who's on day one and then if you're not on day one you're late. So now how do you stand out from
00:42:25
uh all the day one stuff people already watched the truth. I got to say something different. I got to imply everyone on day one was wrong.
00:42:32
And if it was a good product and everyone on day one said nice things. Guess what I'm saying? Yeah. So that's not helpful.
00:42:37
Sure. But it's out there. But it is out there. Yeah. Um, I do not like surfacing this question because I
00:42:43
feel strongly about my own answer to it, but it's a good question, so I'll ask it. Sure. Do you ever feel guilty knowing that a
00:42:49
bad review might tank a company? No. Yeah, that's I also feel that way. Yeah. There is a famous quote. I'm
00:42:55
trying to remember who said it. Uh, but I'm pretty sure it goes, I don't
00:43:00
give a about your stock price. Oh, yeah. Was it Walt Mossberg? It was Walt Mossberg. Was it Mossber? Yeah.
00:43:07
Yeah. and and that you know he's writing for the journal or the times or whatever it is and he's very impactful and he'll
00:43:13
give a negative review and he got asked about it and it's lit I literally couldn't care less about the stock price
00:43:19
of the company and if it's a startup it's less about the stock price and more about can they afford to make it to the next product or not.
00:43:25
Sure. And so yeah, maybe you feel a little guilt in knowing that they won't make it to the next product but I'm not
00:43:30
accelerating that. I'm not causing your product to be bad. I think you said that in your do do bad reviews kill companies
00:43:37
video. You were like no bad products kill companies if I can paraphrase your
00:43:42
your your theme. And I think that's that's true. Whatever you whatever review you make is going to accelerate a
00:43:47
trend that was already existing. Exactly. I am not causing the trend but I you
00:43:53
could argue that I would accelerate it. Sure. But also think about this. A product is terrible. Everyone is saying it's
00:43:59
terrible. Someone like big comes out and says it's great. Does that
00:44:04
help anything? Yeah. Or do more people buy it and find out it's terrible and then get even more negative feedback.
00:44:10
It's so funny. Uh I I was not I was like a midsize pocket nowadays, like pretty
00:44:17
small, and everyone else hated you mentioned it before, the red hydrogen one. Oh, yeah. I remember that.
00:44:23
And I also thought it was a problem, but by the time I got around to it, I was like, you know, this isn't as bad as
00:44:29
everybody's saying. And I did my review which was much more more moderate. I think I still came away with a don't
00:44:35
buy, but I was like, "Yeah, but there's a lot to like here." And the comments just roasted me. How dare you give this any points at
00:44:41
all. They wanted to see pile on. Exactly. Which is, you know, a very human thing, but it's unfortunate.
00:44:47
Uh it's speaking of unfortunate, if we can get deep for a second,
00:44:53
when we started Mhm. I think it would be my argument that tech was a relatively frivolous thing.
00:44:58
You know, you could tell people you made videos about technology and then you'd be like, "Oh, wow. Fun. That's cool. Wow."
00:45:03
But now tech has has become so intertwined with everything in the world that's like, you know, so much of the world is not great. Do you ever feel
00:45:11
disenchanted by it all? Like I mean, as as as we as a society and and as reviewers had it better back when
00:45:17
everything was just kind of a fancy toy. That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, I
00:45:22
think to an extent everything is tech has always been kind of true. Like
00:45:27
there's, you know, whether it's high techch or super impactful, like obviously there's very very politically
00:45:33
intertwined like technologies that people are talking a lot about now and you kind of feel like that is taking over tech and that's what people think
00:45:40
of as tech. Yeah. But everything has always been tech. So I I don't feel that differently about it
00:45:46
now really. I thought I because I I do cover some of this stuff. Yeah. And I think what I'm still trying to
00:45:53
answer is is this good? Should you use it? Should you buy it? But I'm not, and maybe this is bad. Maybe this is
00:45:59
something I should adjust, but I'm not really thinking as much about but what are the political ramifications of you
00:46:04
using a product made in this country or like the way it's made or how recyclable like all these other things that people are talking more about now.
00:46:10
Yeah. And it feels like almost like that wouldn't fit on your main channel because you your mission there is
00:46:17
unchanged like is this good or is this bad? What's it like to use this? But it's almost like a whole other channel could be spun up to to cover exactly
00:46:23
that. Oh, totally. And I actually have like a sort of a a template like bullet point list of things I want to make sure I
00:46:29
talk about when I review certain products. And I added uh sustainability for example to that list.
00:46:34
Yeah. And I realized that I don't talk about it with every product because it's not really a part of the story with every
00:46:40
product, but for certain products it is very much a part of the story. I just talked to Apple about uh the way they 3D print the titanium for the Apple Watches
00:46:47
to use to have less leftover waste material. It's like that's kind of sick. I'd
00:46:53
probably mention that and then another phone comes out and I I don't talk about how they didn't put the charger in the box cuz none of them did
00:46:58
and it's not really interesting for the story newsworthy anymore. Right. Of course. So, I don't know. It's something I could do better is to try to, you know, weave
00:47:05
that into the story in some way if it makes sense. I think I could do it better, too. I think we all could and I but what is nice is I think there's a lot of
00:47:12
pressure to do that. There's increasing pressure to do that from certain corners of the audience. And I think I thought
00:47:17
for a couple years ago that that was like kind of a kind of a greenwashing trend that would that would collapse and
00:47:23
I'm glad it really hasn't. So I'm glad people are still care about it. Yeah. I mean these are the biggest
00:47:28
companies in the world shipping the most volume of the most stuff. So if they can make little changes and then they make a
00:47:34
big deal about it that seems like greenwashing but you look behind the scenes at the numbers and it's like well it is helping actually look in volume. Yeah.
00:47:39
I'm kind of not against shining a little bit of a light on that. That's fine. Yeah. Um the related news, you've done
00:47:47
um kind of an extraordinary job of staying apolitical. Sure. Um even as it it seems everything has
00:47:54
become political. Do you ever wish you could break out of that and address like a polarizing or fraught topic or are you
00:48:00
happy not to have all of the accompanying negative attention that
00:48:05
comes from taking a stand? I I think products are one of those things where
00:48:13
kind of everyone can agree if it's good or bad, no matter where you stand in in this like political spectrum.
00:48:19
Um I do have a video I'm working on right now that kind of feels like it is maybe the most
00:48:25
political. It's a video about the Xiaomi SU7. Oh. And it's a Chinese electric car. It's a car. Yes.
00:48:30
Yeah. And you know, we've reviewed Chinese smartphones forever, but you can't get these Chinese electric cars
00:48:35
here in the US. And the question that I always see about this car is if it was in the US, would it crush?
00:48:42
And it's a question I want to answer so bad. Yeah. But the real answer is the only reason
00:48:48
you can't get it here is politics, right? It's being actively prevented from coming here. Like I can't answer this question, this
00:48:54
really interesting tech story question without going politics, politics, politics, politics, politics, geopolitics, politics.
00:48:59
So yeah, I don't know. I I I still want to answer the question. And I'm still working on like writing this video and
00:49:05
it is more of a challenge for that reason. But it is still a tech story. I don't I don't feel guilty about like including
00:49:10
politics if it's interesting. Yeah. Well, good. No. And not you know I I didn't mean to suggest that you should
00:49:16
feel guilty about it but I think there are times that I want to weigh in on something. Mhm. And I don't because look because it
00:49:23
annoys me as a consumer of say entertainment when an actor I otherwise enjoy decides
00:49:29
to be vocal about an opinion I don't agree with and now I can't watch you know my '9s sitcom anymore.
00:49:35
Yeah. Or I can't I can but I can't watch it without thinking of that. Why did you Why did you ruin this? And
00:49:40
that's what I feel like. I'm like what? Look, I've got a I've got a little phone review channel here. Like you come for my opinions on volume rockers.
00:49:46
Yeah, that's fair. I think though if you feel strongly enough about something that you
00:49:52
should feel free to express it and it's always to me going to be through the lens of tech probably in some way like
00:49:58
I'm not out here talking about like whose war is to end like it's basically I'm I'm only talking about tech and my
00:50:04
interests here right and sometimes sports and sometimes other interests I have but like if I have an
00:50:10
interest I would say if you have an interest that you feel really strongly about you feel strongly about it for a
00:50:15
reason you shouldn't feel like you should holster muzzle yourself. And the other thing, and I see so many
00:50:22
people like diving way into the politics, it's like if if you have an audience member who would stop watching
00:50:28
you because of this thing that you feel really strongly about, do you really need to keep that audience? You want that audience member to remain?
00:50:34
Yeah. Like if you really like strongly believe in it's like, okay, that is probably not the worst thing to lose that part of the
00:50:40
audience. Yeah. Self- selecting is it's good. Yeah.
00:50:52
We have we have one more category. Okay. That's not true. We have two more, but one of them is very short.
00:50:59
I want to talk about sponsored content. I want to talk about making money. Okay. Yeah. How do you feel about the current moment
00:51:06
uh regarding sponsored content and people's reaction to it? Because I feel like people are talking less about it
00:51:12
than they did maybe 5 years ago when we last talked about it. Last time I was on the show, we talked about ethics like
00:51:17
exclusively. Oh, yeah. And I feel like it's not as big a conversation anymore. Like, have audiences and creators reached this kind of broad understanding about paid versus
00:51:24
non-paid or am I misreading that?
00:51:29
H yeah, there's so many facets to that. I think the audience understanding part
00:51:36
kind of comes in waves. Oh, if that makes sense. You find it it's variable. Yeah, I guess
00:51:42
like early days YouTube, like like super early days YouTube when there was no partner program and like Smosh gets a
00:51:49
Wendy's sponsorship or something. I feel like those are the days where it was like congrats, bro. That
00:51:55
you made it. Like that's amazing. Like that was one wave and then it became like a little bit too much. Like they'd
00:52:02
like see that it worked and then they'd sponsor 10 of the biggest channels and then it would be like I didn't think you would take the
00:52:08
Wendy's sponsor money, right? And so it goes down and then it comes back up and then everyone understands it and then it's back down. I think it depends on
00:52:15
who you're watching on YouTube. I think there are a lot of channels that have endless sponsored content and it's fine. And I think there are a lot of channels
00:52:20
that have almost no sponsored content and the second they do one it is it's like poison. They hate it,
00:52:26
right? So you're sold out. Yeah. I think their reaction kind of comes from your audience's expectation.
00:52:32
And if you set an audience expectation of I do tons of sponsored content, then eventually that's what they expect.
00:52:38
right? It's fine for them. I did some unintentional Reddit research on this. Uh I was reading Reddit last night and
00:52:45
the r/OPO subreddit popped to the top of my feed for some reason. So, I was reading it and I think the thread was
00:52:51
something like why aren't people why aren't reviewers as interested in whatever the Find X9
00:52:57
Pro or something. And I'm like, okay. And you were quoted specifically uh or not quoted, but you were cited
00:53:02
specifically. Why isn't Marquez looking at this at this phone? And these responses jumped right out to me and I
00:53:09
they they confuse me. Yeah. Because the this response, one of these because the two reviewers you
00:53:15
mentioned, you being one of them, aren't as impartial as they used to be. Not saying I blame them as they get good
00:53:21
money for it and we'd all be the same. Yeah. I want to talk to these people sometimes. I do like ask them cuz I read
00:53:28
those comments which are like so broadly asserting something that's clearly not true. I want to ask like where did cuz they got that from somewhere like they
00:53:35
they read something else or they just watch something and they go oh yeah these are all p like what where did you
00:53:40
get that from? What do you think? Can I can I talk to you about why you're wrong? Can I explain this to you? I want
00:53:46
to have those conversations. They're like another one. YouTubers are not really independent tech reviewers. Many are simply sponsored by big brands
00:53:53
to the detriment of Chinese brands. And I'm like, okay, we see, sure, sure, there are sponsorships that exist that,
00:54:00
right? But like, but they're like painting this character that's like, oh, I'm the one that takes money to say this about American brands
00:54:07
and this about Chinese brands, right? There's like these backroom deals are happening where it's like, no. So, I
00:54:12
I also I feel like that's that could be a whole separate thing, but I think that undermines my my thought that I had
00:54:18
coming into this before I read that last night. It's like, haven't we all I think everyone understands now, right? Like, where where's the difference? like the
00:54:24
FTC, I I got to say, when it was being very aggressive about mandating disclosures, like that was a big help in
00:54:30
things. You had suddenly people had to say they were they were paid. Yeah. Um but one thing that that that hasn't
00:54:36
changed is that and I think this is probably an impediment to understanding is that the ethics of our world still
00:54:42
exist in this big gray area. Yeah. Because it's not like a traditional journalism where I was hoping you bring
00:54:48
that up. Firewall, right? Like just famously The Verge is always out in front of this. It's like our ad people
00:54:54
who make the money are completely separate from our editorial people. The editorial people don't read the ad spots and all this kind of and it's
00:55:00
but it's not like that in the creator world. Everyone in the audience has to say has to make their decisions based on
00:55:07
individual creators policies. Yep. And that it's like that is an opaque
00:55:12
world. You have to do a lot of work to understand that. Yeah. So I mean my ethics policy I don't think I've changed the wording of since we
00:55:18
talked 5 years ago. I should change it. I think there's like maybe one or two things that have that have that have changed, but like where do you draw your
00:55:24
lines these days? What what money do you say yes to? What do you say no to? Oh, yeah. How do you decide those boundaries?
00:55:30
Yeah. I mean, so at the end of the day, I still just want to keep the focus on
00:55:35
making good videos. So, I'm keeping the main thing the main thing. So, if there are sponsored opportunities that arise,
00:55:40
the number one question I ask is, does this like work with what we're doing? Does this supplement what we're doing? Or is this a distraction or is this like
00:55:47
trying to shoehorn something in that doesn't work? As you can imagine,
00:56:00
um, you ever just want to put it out there and be like, "Hey, here's all the stuff we said no to today." Yeah. Which is why I did a video on
00:56:07
saying yes to everything for a while, which was not even sponsored stuff, but it was just reviews. But even that is like crazy.
00:56:13
Um, yeah. I think I I put in the Slack the other day which is like I got a I got an email whose subject line was like
00:56:20
can you I don't want to misquote it but I think it was like can you do a video about AI
00:56:27
something in Dubai something something it was like all the worst headline like email subject line words possible.
00:56:34
Um, either way, no, I I think the idea is if you feel something is a good fit
00:56:40
and that your audience would enjoy it and then you would like to cover it anyway, then it's a good fit for for working with the company.
00:56:46
Okay. And then there are lots of things that are like on the gray area that you can decide to not do just to keep it clean
00:56:53
basically. Yeah. But yeah, there is like do you do you have category blockoffs? Because like I don't take I
00:57:00
don't I won't take money from a from a smartphone manufacturer, right? Um, but I feel like that's a
00:57:05
little too restrictive because what if I never cover a Realme phone, for example, organically. Sure. And Realme wants to
00:57:10
pay me to do like I still I don't do it, but I'm like I don't know. Sure. Yeah. And my firewall is even a different place. Like I will do like
00:57:16
Google makes smartphones, but sometimes Google is advertising an ad feature or a or YouTube feature and I will work with
00:57:22
them. Yeah. So that's a different part of Google. It almost feels like a different company. Sometimes they barely talk to each other. Yeah. The pixel division is its own
00:57:28
thing. Yeah. So, like I will never do a a sponsored content for a product that I
00:57:34
would review. Yeah. Um, but there's also like there's even like people do
00:57:41
like showcases, which is one version of of a sponsored thing. And then there are people who do sponsored reviews, which
00:57:47
is insane. It's like a contradiction in terms. It's weird that that exists. And the fact that that exists ruins it for everyone else.
00:57:52
It does because then the trust in the whole review category. Exactly. Everyone who's making reviews, who is honest about it and properly
00:57:59
discloses every time, will read Reddit comments about how they're bought and be like, "No, no, that's not how this
00:58:04
works." But it kind of is how some people work, so it ruins it. Right. So, yeah, I get it. It's frustrating,
00:58:09
but all you can do is have a public policy like you do. Yeah. And ideally, if if people call it into
00:58:15
question, then you can at least say something about it. Point to that thing. Here. Here it is. That's the best we can do.
00:58:21
Yeah. I uh I I I I could talk about that forever, but I Let me ask you because I
00:58:26
recently figured out what my favorite way to make money is. Okay. What's your favorite way to make money?
00:58:32
Uh integration like in terms of integration, full length sponsor videos. My favorite way to make Well, I mean,
00:58:38
AdSense is the best. AdSense is the best. You don't have to do anything. You don't touch it. It just YouTube puts ads where
00:58:44
So of So among the like potential um integrations in a video, for example.
00:58:49
Yeah. or or just or different formats because I'll tell you mine.
00:58:54
Okay, licensing. Oh, well, easy. It's the best. I love licensing.
00:58:59
So, this is when you you've already published your review and maybe there's a quote in there that Samsung, for
00:59:04
example, wants to use in their marketing material. They pay for that privilege. I don't know that a lot of people know that. I didn't know that before I got
00:59:11
into Have you noticed even that is gray, though? What do you mean? At least to me, some companies ask. Oh,
00:59:16
and some some companies some just use it, which is Yeah, which is crazy. I had my my a quote from
00:59:22
God. Okay, this is insane that this even happened. Like I get quoted without my permission all the time.
00:59:28
Yeah. And I've I've accepted it because there are some versions of it where it's like, look, I said this publicly. It's out
00:59:34
there. Fine. Apple quoted me in a keynote. They didn't tell me about that. They didn't pay me. They just did it. Whatever.
00:59:39
But I had a quote appear. I was on a website that someone sent me for an AI
00:59:45
standalone AI product. Okay. Already a red flag. Yeah. And I scroll down and there's a couple
00:59:50
quotes about people who like loved it. And then there's one of a quote from me
00:59:56
and I had never reviewed this product or made a video about it and it said like this is a very interesting something something. I
01:00:02
tweeted about this. Okay. And I was like when did I say that? Did I say that? And I scrolled back and what
01:00:09
I found was me quote tweeting a product announcement tweet with a GIF
01:00:17
of an NBA player saying that quote and they took that it was Russell
01:00:24
Westbrook going that's interesting sarcastically. Oh. And they took those words and put it
01:00:30
next to my name as me saying that the product was interesting on their website next to other positive
01:00:37
like quotes. There's like five layers of what to that what that is clearly over the line,
01:00:43
but the line is so gray. Like where is the line? I did say the thing that Apple put in the keynote
01:00:49
that's publicly available, right? I did technically post the player
01:00:55
with the GIF that said the words about the Yeah, kind of. But like that's in no court of law would that
01:01:01
Yeah, exactly. In no court of law. So the court of law could find a place for that line, but like where's the line? I
01:01:06
have no idea. It's crazy. Yeah. I think for if you're going to use my name and logo and and like do the
01:01:12
quote on a website and it's like going to be against a phone like trying to sell a phone. I'm like, "No, you come
01:01:18
on. We we have to have a have typically good etiquette is if you're going to use the quote in paid marketing
01:01:23
then you're paying the creator who said the thing and I like it it's my favorite thing because I already said the thing and I
01:01:28
didn't do it to get that like licensing is such an occasional thing at least for me that it's it's nice when it comes in
01:01:34
and you're such a way with words that your quotes are are beautiful for like onscreen quotes you know
01:01:39
thank you the last time a quote of mine was used for marketing purposes it was it was me making a joke about the the the product um what did I I was at a
01:01:46
pickle festival I was reviewing They flip seven at a at a regional pickle festival as one is and I said something like this is a
01:01:52
really big deal or something and that's the quote they wanted to use. So I was like if you guys want to use that quote
01:01:57
out of please right ahead. That's hilarious. Yeah. Okay. We happy on ethics. We feel like
01:02:04
we've gotten to the bottom of that. Yeah. I think we nailed it all down. Good. I think problem solved. Yeah.
01:02:10
Lightning round then we're out of here. Okay. Okay. What's your favorite failure in mobile
01:02:16
tech? Mobile tech. Favorite failure? What an oxymoron.
01:02:21
Okay. My favorite failure in mobile tech is it's one of two things. The Apple Vision Pro.
01:02:29
It's not that that's not what I was expecting to Oh my god. I just said the first I mean there's so many failures that were interesting that
01:02:36
I mean it's your favorite failure. It's probably not my favorite failure, but that's a really interesting It is
01:02:41
very high-tech, very impressive piece of technology that clearly failed at at meeting its goals.
01:02:47
Yes. But is still sick. It's wild. I don't know what to do with it as my same. It's gathering dust.
01:02:53
Yeah. But like every 6 months when I do do the software update and I'm I'm I put it on my face and I go, "Damn."
01:02:59
Yeah. This is really good. They may have gotten me to put it on tonight. They have a new fighter jet like movie and Apple TV plus a
01:03:05
documentary that I think you're supposed to watch. get the content drip. That's what I want. Yeah. Okay. Top feature from an older phone
01:03:12
that you want a modern manufacturer to bring back. Boom sound. Oh, come on. Just give me frontfacing speakers at
01:03:17
all. Just Just Okay. You get one. You get the overdriven earpiece because everyone's obsessed with the bezels now. And no one does the good
01:03:24
frontfacing speakers. I know. Yeah. I want good. Put the speakers back. Beefy boom sound. I thought you were going to say
01:03:30
notification LED. I'm a little disappointed. Oh, I'm changing my answer. Yeah. Notification LED. So, I can flip my
01:03:35
phone like this and go, "Ah, that's just Twitter. I won't check it. Right. Just the light blue. Now I don't need that. Please. That's so easy, too.
01:03:40
Yeah. Agreed. They could bring that back. I look Well, let's let's make that a number one request list for every phone
01:03:47
going forward. What's your favorite thing you ever got right? Oh,
01:03:54
let me think about this one. There's so many told you so moments. Yeah. Okay. So, there's one that's not quite
01:04:00
over, but I'm I'm going to be right, so I'm just going to say it. We got a
01:04:06
lot of confidence in the room right now. I like this. Okay. I said that. So, I was at Tesla's uh
01:04:12
robo taxi event. Yeah. Couple not even that not even a year ago and uh I'm pretty sure Elon got on stage
01:04:18
and said that they were going to ship the robo taxi as it existed. No steering wheel, no pedals, no nothing. Mhm.
01:04:23
They're going to ship it for I want to get this right. I think $27,000 or less
01:04:29
before the end of 2026. Instantly I was like, "Well, no, you're not." No. And I said I would shave my head if it
01:04:36
happened. So, I'm that confident. Okay. So, I got about 13 months left to be
01:04:41
proven wrong. But I'm That is going to be my favorite. I think your I think that's going to be my favorite. I think your hair is is going to stay
01:04:47
where it is. Yeah. Uh what's what's the biggest thing you ever got wrong? Biggest thing I ever got wrong? Yeah.
01:04:52
Um there is a quote circulating on Twitter this week where uh I forgot I
01:04:58
did this in a video. I bet a million dollars.
01:05:04
So, I clearly was confident. Um, and it was from a year ago. I bet a
01:05:09
million dollars that Apple would not get rid of the mute switch in any of the next 5 years of iPhones.
01:05:16
It's too integral to the design of the iPhone. And technically, they did change it to a
01:05:21
button that does more. It's the action button, which could be a mute switch, but it's not really mute
01:05:27
switch anymore. And that I got a I don't know who I give the million to say who gets the million.
01:05:32
Someone I have to give it to. I'll just give it to you. I guess I was going to say best best interviewer you've had today. Someone deserves it.
01:05:37
Yeah. Right. Yeah. But uh Yeah. No, I did. I must have been super confident in that. And
01:05:42
like literally the next iPhone was like, "Yeah, we're getting rid of it right now." Right before the 15 then. Yeah. Yeah.
01:05:47
So that was wrong. And now as a bonus, we have it on OnePlus phones, too. Like the same exact
01:05:53
button. They also, I guess the OPPO Find X9 added camera control, which is insane. Did it? I keep looking for it on this,
01:05:59
dude. Bar for bar. Like I accidentally swiped just like on the iPhone and accidentally zoomed in just like on the
01:06:04
iPhone. It was crazy. Excellent. Yeah. Um, would you ever I'm going to save that for last. Uh, do you still do
01:06:10
Easter eggs in any of your videos? All the time. Are they all secret? Um, so some are more cryptic and some
01:06:16
are more obvious. Like I'll put an object behind me. That's pretty obvious. But some are more like like one layer
01:06:23
deep, which is very exciting because people find Easter eggs that are like four layers deep that I didn't plan, but
01:06:31
I'll accept the credit because they're so good. 100%. So, yes, the more Easter eggs you hide,
01:06:37
the more they find. Do you still Have you stopped doing Cheerios all together? Cheerios I stopped doing, but I have the
01:06:42
box still. Uh, I can tell you the origin story if you want. Have you heard the origin story?
01:06:48
No. Okay. Okay. I thought this was a secret. No, it it feels like a It should have been like some coded secret, but it was
01:06:54
really simple. I was making videos in my college dorm for that one year where there was a
01:07:01
microwave behind me and the little LED on the microwave was like out of sync
01:07:07
with the camera shutter. It was just strobing. Super distracting. You know, it does looks weird on camera. Does.
01:07:12
And for like weeks that was the only thing anyone commented about. Dude, the microwave is driving me. I can't look away from that thing. I was like, it's
01:07:19
it's my microwave. I can't move it, right? So, I just put like a Cheerios box in front of it just to stop people from
01:07:24
commenting about it to mask it. And obviously, the first wave of people seeing the box in front of the microwave was like, I know what's behind that
01:07:30
Cheerio box. But eventually, it was just people talking about the Cheerios box, of course,
01:07:36
and I move on to my new spot, and I keep the Cheerios box behind me. There's no microwave back there. I just keep the
01:07:41
Cheerios box around. So, that was how that started happening. Do you ever do like little shout outs to
01:07:47
like like a a special person in your life? Like I've I've been known to do a a single frame heart somewhere in a
01:07:53
heart emoji. That's a good idea. I've had teammates on Frisbee teams ask for shout outs.
01:08:00
Like in the middle of a video, can you just like click a pen twice and we'll know what it means?
01:08:06
And uh you ever do it? I think I've done it once. Once or twice since college. Somebody as in college to do it and I did it. It's really hard
01:08:12
though. It's tough to remember to do it and not make it distracting and not make it weird. Right. Right. Yeah, that's fun.
01:08:17
It's hard. Yeah. Oh my god, that's cool. Now I want to figure out what I need to ask you for. Uh, two more. What um would would you
01:08:25
ever actually try digital detox with a with a with a dumb phone, a light phone,
01:08:30
or or like not the apps? Yeah. Let's say long term. A week. Okay. Not long term, but or two weeks.
01:08:37
Mhm. Not with the timeout apps. Not with Brick. Yeah. Yeah, with like a real dumb phone.
01:08:44
I'm not going to rule that out. Um, part of the
01:08:50
ultimate frisbee experience for me is switching this part of my brain completely off and flipping over to the
01:08:56
competitive like totally different side of my brain. Yeah. And I'm often offline for two straight
01:09:01
days for a frisbee tournament. Really? Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. And and it's two days and it's fine and
01:09:06
I come back on Monday and I'm ready to get back to it. But uh these international tournaments are like a
01:09:12
week a week and a half long and I think that is you know it would be hard to be offline
01:09:18
very hard. Yeah, I won't rule it out. I think that's something I could do. Can I recommend it? I had such I learned so much in my two
01:09:24
weeks with the with the light phone. It you know you don't have to use the light phone but whatever. That's that's what gave me the excuse to do it.
01:09:29
Yeah. It's really fun even when it's really frustrating and I'm still I'm holding on to stuff from that like lessons I
01:09:36
learned this summer from it. Like it's great. learn about yourself. Yes. Interesting. And I've learned how to manage myself
01:09:41
better. I'm like I'm I'm I'm a better phone user now. That is the best possible encouragement I could hear to try to do
01:09:48
that. Try try it just just for the for the personal growth. Even if you don't do a video, just try it. Okay. Yeah. All right.
01:09:54
Uh and finally, what was your favorite instance of being recognized in public?
01:10:02
There's a couple there's a couple fun ones. Um, people are generally very respectful and and very excited to talk
01:10:08
tech, which is super cool. Uh, a recent one that comes to mind, so
01:10:14
uh, we often use music in our videos. Yeah. Um, oftentimes just like we'll license something or we'll or we'll use
01:10:20
something from an artist and give him a shout out. Sure. And I was at Newark airport a couple months
01:10:26
ago and I was like sitting I I think I was just like waiting for my bag or something and a gentleman came up to me
01:10:32
and he said, "Hey, just want to say I love your videos. Appreciate what you do. You've used some of our music in our
01:10:38
videos. Uh I sing for a band called Wolfpack. Good to meet you." And walked away.
01:10:43
I was like, and I like as he walked away, I I was like, "Oh my god, his voice like of
01:10:49
course." And I like, "Hey, I dude, thank you so much for the music." Like, I was super excited about that.
01:10:56
But just the fact that like he's just like another guy in the airport just like, "Oh, yeah, that little connection." That was
01:11:01
that was a fun one, I would say. Yeah, that is. No, that's a fantastic one. Yeah. Do you want to know mine?
01:11:06
Oh, yes, I do. Please. I was having a really bad end of the week and I was really fried and I was in
01:11:12
Williamsburg just kind of like absorbing the sun and trying to breathe and trying to let the week go. Photosynthesizing.
01:11:18
Exactly. Yeah. A guy drives by in a in a in a car that's got a really loud exhaust system and he rolls down his window. He's like,
01:11:23
"Hey, hey." I'm like, "What?" He's like, "YouTube, I love your stuff." I'm like,
01:11:29
and it really, you know, it changed my whole day around. I was like, "Dude, thank you so much, man. I really appreciate it." And he kind of keeps
01:11:35
pointing at me. He's like, "Mister, who's the boss?"
01:11:42
He said, "Yep, you got it, man. Have a good day." That's me.
01:11:48
That's incredible. Yeah. Wow. It's a fun fun weird life we've got. It is a small world. He's not fully
01:11:53
wrong. No. This look, Mr. Mister, you got it. That's all you need. Yeah.
01:11:58
Yeah. That's amazing, dude. Thank you. This has been a blast. This was fun. I appreciate the time.
01:12:04
We should do this again sometime. I would love that. Perfect. If I start one of these, you should come on and interview me. It'll be fun.
01:12:10
Deal. My studio will be less fancy, but you know, we got sound effects. I was going to say, oh god,
01:12:16
that's how we book it. Sound effects. Perfect. Thanks, man. Hey, thanks for watching this bonus
01:12:22
episode. If you enjoyed, get subscribed because we're back to your regularly scheduled programming on Friday. We was
01:12:27
produced by Rufus, Adam, and Ellis this week. Our intro outro music is by Vainil and we are a part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
01:12:42
Yo, what is up people of the internet? I am going to take that again because
01:12:47
that's not what I say next.
