00:00:00
Am I going to hell?
00:00:01
>> Yes. But here's the thing. Everybody is
00:00:04
going to hell. And it's not because they
00:00:06
don't believe in God. And look, I'm a
00:00:08
historian and a theologian. So, I study
00:00:10
ancient biblical manuscripts. And if you
00:00:12
truly understand what this book is
00:00:14
saying, I don't want you to experience
00:00:17
that.
00:00:17
>> This is not a place I want to go. So,
00:00:19
what do I do about that?
00:00:20
>> It's not about trying to earn my way
00:00:22
into heaven. It's not about checking
00:00:24
off. I read the Bible as many times. I
00:00:26
didn't lie. I didn't steal. I didn't
00:00:27
cheat. Like, it's none of that. But
00:00:29
here's the problem. Unfortunately, we
00:00:31
bought the lie that we are the sum of
00:00:33
our actions, where we're chasing after
00:00:35
things that aren't going to give us what
00:00:37
we actually need. Which is also why we
00:00:38
live in a world that is lacking in
00:00:40
purpose and meaning.
00:00:41
>> But the part that I've always struggled
00:00:42
with is that the answer being religion
00:00:44
as an antidote to that feeling because I
00:00:46
require a really high standard of
00:00:47
evidence because of the way that I am.
00:00:49
>> Well, I think not only can it provide an
00:00:51
antidote, it can provide the antidote.
00:00:53
And I'll explain why. like how can we
00:00:55
trust human accounts of these things and
00:00:56
then how do you take people who agree
00:00:58
that there's clearly something missing
00:00:59
to believing that what's written in the
00:01:01
Bible is the thing that should guide my
00:01:02
life also do you have any doubt oh
00:01:06
especially when there are times of
00:01:07
struggle and pain and suffering like the
00:01:09
whole Epstein thing right now we are
00:01:10
seeing examples of true evil so there
00:01:12
are moments where I think how could
00:01:14
there be a good god however from my
00:01:17
investigation I am convinced beyond a
00:01:18
reasonable doubt that there's actual
00:01:20
evidence for the existence of God the
00:01:22
historical reliability of the Bible and
00:01:24
the philosophical explanations for
00:01:26
meaning and purpose.
00:01:27
>> And what is that?
00:01:28
>> First, we have
00:01:30
>> that is some of the most persuasive
00:01:31
evidence one can receive.
00:01:36
>> Guys, I've got a quick favor to ask you.
00:01:38
We're approaching a significant
00:01:39
subscriber milestone on this show. And
00:01:41
roughly 69% of you that listen and love
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this show haven't yet subscribed for
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whatever reason. If there was ever a
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time for you to do us a favor, if we've
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ever done anything for you, given you
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value in any way, it is simply hitting
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much to myself, but also to my team
00:01:56
because when we hit these milestones, we
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go away as a team and celebrate. And
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it's the thing, the simple, free, easy
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So, that's a favor I would ask you. And
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um if you do hit the subscribe button, I
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won't let you down and we'll continue to
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find small ways to make this whole
00:02:12
production better. Thank you so much for
00:02:14
being part of this journey. Means the
00:02:16
world. And uh yeah, let's do this.
00:02:22
Wesley, I have this fascinating uh graph
00:02:25
in front of me here and it shows several
00:02:28
things that I find to be really really
00:02:29
interesting. One of them is that as of
00:02:31
2024,
00:02:33
the decline of religion has started to
00:02:36
level off and actually increase a little
00:02:38
bit. And now 63% of US adults identify
00:02:42
as Christian, which is roughly 160
00:02:46
million people. In 2025, Bible sales hit
00:02:49
a 21-year high in the United States with
00:02:52
19 million units sold. Weekly Bible
00:02:55
reading amongst US adults has increased
00:02:57
to 42%, which is up 12% since 2024. And
00:03:02
in 2024, Christian and gospel music
00:03:04
streams in the US increased by roughly
00:03:06
20% according to the Washington Times.
00:03:08
Wesley, what is going on in society? If
00:03:11
we zoom out,
00:03:12
>> I think we're in a unique bubble where
00:03:16
we found ourselves in a time frame where
00:03:21
we're connected more than ever. We've
00:03:24
kind of come out of a period of time
00:03:27
where the new atheism is very, very
00:03:30
popular. You had Dawkins, Daniel, uh,
00:03:33
Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, Christopher
00:03:36
Hitchens, and they made a big impact in
00:03:38
the early 2000s.
00:03:39
>> I think we should probably just give
00:03:40
some color to what new atheism is.
00:03:42
>> Sure. Yeah.
00:03:43
>> I've actually got a graph here, which
00:03:44
I'll throw up on the screen, which shows
00:03:45
the rise and then the the fall of new
00:03:47
atheism, but I was pulled in by new
00:03:50
atheism.
00:03:51
>> And that meant that I, and again, I
00:03:52
should probably preface my beliefs
00:03:54
because people are going to want to know
00:03:55
what my bias is when I'm asking
00:03:56
questions. I grew up in a very Christian
00:03:58
household up until the age of 18. I then
00:03:59
became agnostic/ atheist when I started
00:04:01
consuming a lot of this stuff from
00:04:02
Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris and all
00:04:04
of these people. And then I find myself
00:04:06
at a point now where I'm just
00:04:07
open-minded and curious,
00:04:08
>> but I have lots of questions. Yeah, you
00:04:10
had these individuals who are writing
00:04:12
these very influential works. But I
00:04:15
sometimes wonder whether the new atheism
00:04:17
movement worked a lot more effectively
00:04:18
in print than it did in actual real
00:04:20
life. Like in terms of the practicality
00:04:23
of the application of the things that
00:04:26
were being talked about, especially in
00:04:28
regards to meaning, if you apply ideas
00:04:32
like you being a product of time plus
00:04:34
matter plus chance, what does that
00:04:36
actually give you in terms of the
00:04:38
ultimate identity questions? And so I
00:04:41
think I think that's true in a lot of
00:04:44
circumstances where you have these seeds
00:04:45
that are planted and they grow and they
00:04:48
produce trees that produce fruit that
00:04:51
are kind of hard to digest in their
00:04:54
actual application. And along with that,
00:04:56
we have a world that's very complex.
00:04:59
We're more connected than we ever have
00:05:01
been. I don't know if we're truly we
00:05:04
were ever truly meant to know as much
00:05:06
information as we do, especially about
00:05:08
things that are going on around the
00:05:11
world and things that are hard to to
00:05:14
comprehend. And so what I think that all
00:05:17
kind of adds up to is people asking
00:05:20
questions about, okay, I'm here. I'm
00:05:23
right now trying to figure out what's
00:05:25
going on. How do I actually find out the
00:05:30
answers to a lot of these questions that
00:05:32
just go beyond the here and the now that
00:05:33
I'm experiencing? This is what um
00:05:35
individuals like James K. Smith called
00:05:37
the dynamics of disenchantment where
00:05:40
people are struggling with these
00:05:43
transcendent questions, questions that
00:05:45
are metaphysical that go beyond just the
00:05:48
here and the now in the world. Why is
00:05:50
the three pounds of gray matter in my
00:05:53
brain able to comprehend the
00:05:55
complexities of the universe? How do I
00:05:57
how do I come up with a solution to that
00:05:59
problem? So, I think that's part of it.
00:06:01
I think it's kind of moving on in a
00:06:04
world that just is probably more messy
00:06:07
than it's ever been. A lot of countries,
00:06:09
the UK, Europe, Canada, America, all of
00:06:14
these western countries,
00:06:16
they they were founded on these
00:06:18
Judeo-Christian ethics of foundations
00:06:22
that come from the Old and the New
00:06:24
Testaments, what we call the Bible. And
00:06:28
a lot of people kind of attempted to
00:06:29
divorce the religious aspect from the
00:06:33
societies. And societies became less and
00:06:36
less overtly religious in those natures.
00:06:40
And then a lot of people saw that their
00:06:42
parents were no longer going to church.
00:06:44
Like the Bible wasn't part of kind of
00:06:46
the household any longer. And I talked
00:06:49
to a lot of young people who look at
00:06:51
that and they say in almost like a
00:06:54
rebellion against their parents, they're
00:06:56
now interested in that. Their parents
00:06:58
rebelled by disassociating from
00:07:00
religion. And now I wonder if there's
00:07:04
part of a rebellion in kind of looking
00:07:07
back and trying to reclaim some of that
00:07:10
religious stuff. I think in part as well
00:07:13
this younger generation, Gen Z's and I
00:07:15
guess to some extent also millennials
00:07:17
have been told to live more
00:07:20
individualistic lives and that's really
00:07:22
been glamorized like be your own boss
00:07:23
and now we work remotely and stand on
00:07:26
your own two feet and we're even seeing
00:07:28
people getting into sort of
00:07:29
relationships later and later in their
00:07:31
lives and having less children. So
00:07:32
they're more it appears people are more
00:07:34
unanchored than they've ever been and
00:07:37
that was to some degree glamorized. Um
00:07:39
but it also appears that when we are
00:07:41
unanch anchored when we don't have
00:07:43
responsibilities or we're not part of
00:07:45
something mental health issues um are
00:07:49
quick quick to follow
00:07:50
>> and for this generation they're
00:07:51
suffering the most with those types of
00:07:53
mental health issues and then one would
00:07:54
assert that they would therefore be
00:07:55
searching more for
00:07:57
>> answers to some of these existential
00:07:59
questions
00:08:00
>> expressive individualism I think it rose
00:08:02
that's the kind of the terminology in
00:08:03
soc in the sociological literature that
00:08:06
they refer to it but I I think you
00:08:08
touched on a good point in that like as
00:08:09
we've removed God, part of the
00:08:12
intellectual light enlightenment was
00:08:14
that we would move away from the
00:08:17
shackles of religiosity and the concept
00:08:19
of a creator and that would lead us into
00:08:23
a utopia. And I think the more and more
00:08:26
we've removed that from society that
00:08:28
hasn't decreased our levels of anxiety
00:08:30
and depression and meaning. I I think
00:08:33
it's increased it.
00:08:34
>> Yeah. And especially celebrity worship,
00:08:37
social media, building a following of
00:08:39
your own like sort of low-key
00:08:41
narcissism.
00:08:42
>> Yeah.
00:08:43
>> Has made us more and more and more and
00:08:45
more important. And that seems to
00:08:46
correlate with worse and worse and worse
00:08:48
mental health when you start to become
00:08:51
more individualistic and think more and
00:08:52
more about yourself
00:08:54
>> and self-importance
00:08:55
>> versus others and a bigger picture.
00:08:58
>> Mhm. I think we were created for
00:09:00
community. I think we are as human
00:09:02
beings a creature that is created for
00:09:05
community ultimately like cards on the
00:09:07
table as a Christian because I believe
00:09:08
we are created in the image of a God who
00:09:12
exists in a set of living loving
00:09:13
relationships like that's what the
00:09:15
trinity is when we talk about that idea
00:09:19
within Christian theology. God exists in
00:09:23
father son and holy spirit. And so being
00:09:25
created in the image of God, part of
00:09:28
that is you are created for
00:09:30
relationship. And so in a society that's
00:09:32
continually removing us, you know, you
00:09:34
need to be an influencer. You're
00:09:36
influencing everybody else.
00:09:38
>> When I think we're not created to be
00:09:41
lone wolves or lone rangers. We're
00:09:44
created to live amongst community and
00:09:47
have that be something that likewise
00:09:50
gives us fulfillment. It's not that
00:09:52
people who are leaders are, you know,
00:09:54
rise to the top are wrong by any
00:09:56
stretch, but in a society where we're
00:09:58
alone together because
00:10:02
we are sitting behind computer screens
00:10:05
>> and we're talking to hundreds of
00:10:07
thousands if not millions of people in
00:10:08
some cases, but but we're secluded.
00:10:11
>> I think that that does something to our
00:10:14
souls because we were made to be in
00:10:17
relationship with other people. I
00:10:22
agree with everything you've said as it
00:10:24
relates to the sort of crisis of meaning
00:10:25
in society and I also agree with many of
00:10:27
your reasons as to why that's occurred.
00:10:29
>> The part that I've always struggled with
00:10:31
is then the answer being Christianity or
00:10:35
any other religion.
00:10:36
>> Sure. I agree with, you know, so many of
00:10:38
the things you've said, but then I my
00:10:39
brain has, I think, especially after the
00:10:42
age of 18 when I started reading about
00:10:43
all this new atheist stuff and these
00:10:44
questions of evil and am I going to hell
00:10:48
and all these other things, I've not
00:10:50
been able to get there.
00:10:52
>> But I'm having this conversation with
00:10:53
you today because I am open-minded and
00:10:56
although I've got like difficult
00:10:57
questions to ask, I'm in pursuit of the
00:10:59
truth, not any particular ideology or
00:11:02
answer. So, how do you take someone like
00:11:05
me who agrees that there's clearly
00:11:07
something missing, who believes that
00:11:08
there's something transcendent? Like,
00:11:10
it'd be a crazy thing to assume that
00:11:11
this is it. I I think
00:11:13
>> Yeah.
00:11:13
>> How do you take them from this position
00:11:15
to
00:11:16
>> believing that what's written in this
00:11:17
book in front of me, the Bible,
00:11:19
>> Yeah.
00:11:19
>> is the thing that should guide my life,
00:11:22
>> right?
00:11:23
>> Because I I like, again, I say I'm going
00:11:25
to say this again, that like
00:11:27
>> I think I require a really high standard
00:11:28
of evidence because of the way that I
00:11:30
am.
00:11:30
>> Yeah. You know, I think there's a
00:11:32
historical case for it which I'm very
00:11:34
much invested in because my training
00:11:36
formerly is in historioggraphy. I study
00:11:39
ancient biblical manuscripts and their
00:11:41
kind of reliability and fidelity over
00:11:45
the last couple of millennia. So looking
00:11:48
at some of those manuscripts that
00:11:50
actually can trace back to the actual
00:11:52
time frame of Jesus and answering
00:11:54
questions like is what we have now what
00:11:56
the original authors wrote back then?
00:11:57
So, I think there's a historical
00:11:59
question to it. And I in my own personal
00:12:02
investigation genuinely think that the
00:12:04
evidence, the publicly available
00:12:06
evidence gets us back to not only the
00:12:09
time frame of Jesus, but to early
00:12:11
eyewitness testimony that proclaims that
00:12:13
this first century Jewish itinerate
00:12:16
rabbi who was walking the dusty streets
00:12:18
of first century made these claims and
00:12:21
then there is sufficient evidence to say
00:12:23
that he predicted his own death and
00:12:25
resurrection and did it. How do I know
00:12:28
Jesus Christ was real? And then how do I
00:12:30
know what's written in that book is real
00:12:33
versus just some guys thousands of years
00:12:35
ago made a book?
00:12:37
>> Yeah. So that is a question of
00:12:39
historical reliability. So there are a
00:12:42
couple different ways we could go about
00:12:43
it. First, we have four biographical
00:12:45
accounts of Jesus's life, which is very
00:12:47
unusual. So we call them the Gospels,
00:12:49
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Um those
00:12:51
aren't actually our earliest source
00:12:53
material for the life of Jesus. that
00:12:55
comes in the person of Paul. Paul is
00:12:57
actually writing before the gospel
00:12:59
accounts and he is uh someone who was
00:13:04
hostile originally to the Christian
00:13:06
message and he's persecuting Christians.
00:13:09
He comes along and he has this radical
00:13:11
conversion experience when he's
00:13:13
traveling to Damascus where he says he's
00:13:16
he's literally thrown off a horse. He
00:13:18
hears God's voice and it's Jesus and he
00:13:20
says, "Paul, why are you persecuting
00:13:22
me?" And then he writes these things
00:13:24
about his experience and and then
00:13:28
ultimately goes and connects with the
00:13:30
individuals who are who we call the
00:13:32
disciples who are like this this close
00:13:34
Jesus community and connects with them.
00:13:36
So he's our earliest source but then you
00:13:38
have these gospel accounts these these
00:13:40
biographies and the gospels are
00:13:41
interesting because they fit within the
00:13:43
historical framework of ancient Greco
00:13:47
Roman biography. So let me give you an
00:13:49
example. The most well-known person in
00:13:52
Jesus's day was the emperor. His name is
00:13:54
Tiberius. Tiberius has four biographical
00:13:58
accounts that are written about him.
00:13:59
Valasculus, Casiodio, Sutonius, and
00:14:02
Tacitus.
00:14:03
>> So, these are the four guys. Okay.
00:14:05
>> And what's interesting in sort of a
00:14:08
comparative analysis of Jesus and those
00:14:10
people is that they're all writing
00:14:13
around the same time period. So the
00:14:15
biographies are coming from the first
00:14:17
century for Jesus. They're coming in
00:14:21
this time period where you have an early
00:14:22
eyewitness testimony for the emperor for
00:14:26
the most well-known person in the
00:14:27
ancient world. All of the sources except
00:14:30
for uh Valas Peterculus are coming from
00:14:33
the second century.
00:14:35
>> Val Petculus is coming from the first
00:14:37
century. He's very close to the source,
00:14:38
but he's a paid propagandist. So even
00:14:40
though he's the earliest, he's the least
00:14:42
reliable. And for the gospels that comes
00:14:47
around to the 4th century. So there's a
00:14:50
comparison with the source material for
00:14:53
someone like Jesus even though we really
00:14:56
shouldn't have anything about him
00:14:58
because he's he's kind of a nobody from
00:15:01
nowhere
00:15:01
>> in terms of the Roman Empire and the
00:15:03
grand scheme of things.
00:15:05
>> But we have a phenomenal amount of
00:15:07
source information for his life. I mean,
00:15:10
this is one of the things I discovered
00:15:11
when I went through that new atheist
00:15:12
phase was that really everybody kind of
00:15:15
agrees that there was a guy called Jesus
00:15:18
from Nazareth and that he was a real
00:15:20
historical person.
00:15:21
>> I guess the part in dispute was whether
00:15:24
things like his resurrection actually
00:15:26
happened or whether he was just a
00:15:28
spiritual leader back then like we have
00:15:29
spiritual leaders today. And I think one
00:15:31
of the one of the things that I got
00:15:32
really stuck on when I was reading about
00:15:34
Jesus and the Bible was there appears to
00:15:36
be quite a significant gap between his
00:15:38
life, his death, and then the writings
00:15:41
that go into the Bible. And for me in my
00:15:43
head, I was like, well, if you know,
00:15:45
>> if something happened in my life 50
00:15:46
years ago, I mean, I'm only 33, but if
00:15:48
something happened 50 years ago, I would
00:15:49
not be able to recount it. Frankly, I
00:15:50
can't recount what happened last week
00:15:51
accurately,
00:15:52
>> right?
00:15:52
>> Let alone like decades ago. You've you
00:15:54
must have heard this argument before.
00:15:56
>> Yes.
00:15:56
>> What how do you how do you square the
00:15:58
circle here?
00:15:58
>> So, there are a few things going on.
00:16:00
First, we live in a hyperiterate
00:16:01
culture. We are writing everything down.
00:16:04
The ancient world was far less of a
00:16:06
literate culture. They were an oral
00:16:07
culture. These stories would have been
00:16:09
passed in large groups at at at time
00:16:12
frames, especially if we're talking
00:16:14
about the biographical material of Jesus
00:16:16
is actually written in a closer time
00:16:18
frame than the majority of anyone else.
00:16:21
>> What was that gap?
00:16:22
>> It's it's about 40 to 60 years.
00:16:24
>> So, I really want to I imagine there's
00:16:25
some people listening that have probably
00:16:27
never read the Bible. And I really want
00:16:28
to explain to them like what this book
00:16:29
is in the simplest terms. Can I I can
00:16:31
open your Bible.
00:16:32
>> Yeah, of course. Yeah.
00:16:33
>> So, is there is there like chapters in
00:16:35
here?
00:16:36
>> Yeah. So, the Bible is though we now
00:16:38
have it in one book is 66 books written
00:16:42
over a period of about 1600 years on
00:16:44
three different continents by close to
00:16:45
40 different authors in three different
00:16:47
languages.
00:16:48
>> So, I've just opened your Bible. Y
00:16:50
>> and there's one section that says the
00:16:52
Old Testament. There's another section
00:16:54
section that says the New Testament. M
00:16:56
what am I looking at? Like is this God's
00:16:59
words? Is this a bunch of people's
00:17:00
stories that have been compiled
00:17:02
together? What is the Old Testament?
00:17:04
What's the New Testament? What's the
00:17:05
difference?
00:17:05
>> Yeah. So the Old Testament is the Hebrew
00:17:08
scriptures. So that's the scriptures of
00:17:09
the Jewish people.
00:17:11
>> Okay.
00:17:11
>> So that is uh you know it starts in
00:17:15
what's referred to as the Torah, which
00:17:17
are the first five books or the five
00:17:18
books of Moses. And then that goes in a
00:17:21
time frame all the way up to the period
00:17:23
of the Persians.
00:17:25
>> So that's a certain time frame. Yes. And
00:17:27
they've gone and collected books from
00:17:28
that time frame or writings from that
00:17:30
time frame.
00:17:31
>> Yeah. So the ancient Jewish people had
00:17:33
and remember all of these books they
00:17:35
would have circulated as independent
00:17:36
writings.
00:17:37
>> Okay.
00:17:37
>> So we start to see things like this
00:17:40
happen in the 4th century. Prior to that
00:17:43
everything's in independent scrolls. So
00:17:46
there's an understanding when even you
00:17:48
get them all sort of put in one unit
00:17:50
that would have contained the
00:17:52
scriptures, the word of God more so than
00:17:54
like this is the word of God.
00:17:56
>> The reason why I am unapologetic and
00:17:59
very open about my total naivity is
00:18:01
because often in these conversations
00:18:04
>> you end up kind of preaching to the
00:18:05
choir.
00:18:05
>> Sure.
00:18:06
>> If you know what I mean. And there's a
00:18:07
huge amount of people, especially
00:18:08
younger people that went through that
00:18:09
new atheist movement, were maybe born in
00:18:10
the 2000s that are now 26 years old,
00:18:13
>> that have never read the Bible, have
00:18:14
never even opened one, have no idea what
00:18:15
it is. They just think it's this kind of
00:18:17
like book of stories. Yeah.
00:18:18
>> But these the first um you call these
00:18:21
books, I was thinking of them like
00:18:22
chapters.
00:18:24
>> The first one in the Old Testament is
00:18:25
Genesis.
00:18:27
>> Who wrote Genesis? Was that a guy or was
00:18:29
that God? So the idea is in Christianity
00:18:33
the terminology is what's called verbal
00:18:36
plenary inspiration. So verbal it's
00:18:39
spoken plenary it's like written down
00:18:41
and then inspired. So there are human
00:18:43
authors to all these books.
00:18:44
>> Okay. So humans wrote these chapters but
00:18:46
they were inspired by God.
00:18:48
>> So yes. So the understanding so in the
00:18:50
Bible itself Peter says that men spoke
00:18:53
as they were carried along by the Holy
00:18:54
Spirit. So there's a there's a
00:18:57
historical context to all of these like
00:18:59
the history of this period of time of
00:19:02
the nation of Israel as they were being
00:19:05
led by particular rulers.
00:19:06
>> And where does Jesus show up?
00:19:08
>> Jesus is the New Testament.
00:19:09
>> If someone's never read the Old
00:19:11
Testament, what is that about? It's just
00:19:14
describing the time.
00:19:16
>> It's a bunch of different things. So
00:19:17
different things. It's there's a whole
00:19:18
bunch of genres of literature. So, some
00:19:20
of it is history, some of it is poetry,
00:19:24
some of it is what's called wisdom
00:19:26
literature.
00:19:26
>> And who decided that these it looks like
00:19:29
there's I don't know, it looks like
00:19:30
there's about 40 books in the Old
00:19:31
Testament.
00:19:32
>> Mhm. 39 books that are in the Old
00:19:33
Testament.
00:19:34
>> Who decided that those were going to be
00:19:36
part of the Old Testament because I'm
00:19:37
sure that there was lots of other
00:19:38
writings at the time that could have
00:19:40
been included.
00:19:41
>> Yeah. So, by the time that Jesus is
00:19:43
around, there's approximately an
00:19:45
agreement of what is considered
00:19:47
scripture
00:19:48
>> by who? by the Jews themselves.
00:19:50
>> So the Jews decided which 38 books to
00:19:53
put in.
00:19:53
>> Yes. So you have conversations by
00:19:56
individuals like there's a guy named
00:19:58
Josephus who is writing at the end of
00:20:00
the first century. Part of what he
00:20:02
argues is that the Jewish people don't
00:20:05
have kind of an innumerable number of
00:20:08
religious texts like the Greeks do. They
00:20:11
have a specific number and he uses this
00:20:13
terminology that they were laid up in
00:20:15
the temple. So the idea is that you know
00:20:18
these are the books they're housed in
00:20:20
the temple and they're a set number and
00:20:23
he gives the number of the same number
00:20:25
of letters in the Hebrew alphabet 22. So
00:20:28
you usually see this 22 or 23 number,
00:20:30
but they group them differently. And he
00:20:34
gives an argument that one of the
00:20:36
reasons that there we can find a
00:20:39
timeline for what the Jews consider
00:20:41
scripture is he says there's nothing
00:20:42
written before Moses and there's not
00:20:45
nothing written after the time of Artis
00:20:46
Xerxes, which is the Persian Empire. So
00:20:49
the book of Esther in the Bible is is
00:20:51
that time period. So though there are
00:20:53
writings after that there's this
00:20:56
agreement that
00:20:58
the voice of God in say the prophets
00:21:01
giving a thus sayaith the Lord statement
00:21:03
like communicating messages to the
00:21:05
people of Israel has ceased but the
00:21:09
Jewish cannon though there's like a
00:21:12
closing of it there's a soft closing
00:21:15
there's an idea that there's going to be
00:21:18
a new covenant God is make going to make
00:21:20
new pro promises with his people and so
00:21:23
there are going to be more writings.
00:21:24
>> Okay. So my understanding of that is
00:21:26
that he made the case that God is no
00:21:29
longer communicating with people to
00:21:31
write these books
00:21:32
>> at least that there was a stop point at
00:21:35
Malachi. So it's sometimes referred to
00:21:37
as the 400 years of silence for that
00:21:39
reason
00:21:39
>> from the point of Jesus's death.
00:21:41
>> Mhm.
00:21:42
>> What book from the New Testament is
00:21:44
written last and how big is that gap?
00:21:47
>> That's a debate.
00:21:48
>> Okay. What's the debate? So the debate
00:21:51
so the the there's it's a question if
00:21:53
John's gospel
00:21:55
>> is written before 70 AD or after 70 AD
00:21:57
and if it's written after 70 AD it's
00:21:59
written in the '9s. So it's written
00:22:02
pretty far afterwards.
00:22:03
>> How many years?
00:22:04
>> So if Jesus dies in 33.
00:22:06
>> Okay. So about 60.
00:22:08
>> Yeah.
00:22:08
>> Okay. Fine.
00:22:10
>> Yeah. So, so at minimum I I think like
00:22:14
99% of historians, biblical scholars,
00:22:18
classicists would argue that the 27
00:22:21
books of the New Testament are written
00:22:22
in the first century. And so in that
00:22:25
sense, they're in the lifetime of the
00:22:27
eyewitnesses to a certain degree.
00:22:29
>> Mhm.
00:22:29
>> And there's evidence even within some of
00:22:32
the gospels where you have these names
00:22:33
thrown out kind of randomly. And part of
00:22:37
the thinking of that is that this is
00:22:39
like citing your sources. At one point
00:22:43
when Jesus is carrying the cross to
00:22:45
Galatha,
00:22:47
>> he kind of stumbles and they get another
00:22:50
person to carry his cross for a little
00:22:52
bit.
00:22:53
>> And that person is Joseph of Arythea.
00:22:55
Well, one of the gospels names one of
00:22:58
Joseph of Arythea's son by name. And the
00:23:01
thinking is that this is probably
00:23:02
someone who's well known within the
00:23:04
early Jesus community. And the purpose
00:23:06
of naming that person randomly is to say
00:23:11
he's actually well known. Go ask him.
00:23:13
>> I mean logically there's quite a risk of
00:23:15
Chinese whispers to some degree.
00:23:17
>> As you were speaking I was trying to
00:23:18
think about things that I experienced
00:23:19
when I was younger like with my like
00:23:20
grandmother before she passed away and I
00:23:22
was trying to like accurately recount
00:23:24
those memories.
00:23:25
>> Yeah.
00:23:25
>> I was thinking of like going to her
00:23:26
house and then
00:23:28
>> I remember one day she gave me some
00:23:29
money but I can't remember what she gave
00:23:31
it to me for and I can't remember how
00:23:33
much she gave me. I know she put it in a
00:23:34
card and this was only like hm 20 years
00:23:37
ago.
00:23:37
>> Yeah.
00:23:38
>> And so if I was to write about that
00:23:40
today, I would be filling in some some
00:23:43
gaps, especially especially this is the
00:23:47
other thing that I always struggled with
00:23:48
is like especially in a world where we
00:23:50
didn't understand science. Now my
00:23:51
grandmother like put it in a card and it
00:23:53
was like I opened it and the way she did
00:23:55
it was often as a surprise. So in a
00:23:57
world where I like didn't understand
00:23:58
physics or science, I might have
00:24:00
concluded that my mother, my grandmother
00:24:02
did something like magical,
00:24:04
>> you know, at a time when we didn't
00:24:05
understand anything about like really
00:24:06
much about the nature of the universe
00:24:08
and planets and the solar system and
00:24:10
physics.
00:24:11
>> So is that a risk that some of the
00:24:13
things that have been transmuted by God
00:24:16
into this book in front of me are prone
00:24:18
to Chinese whispers and or just like a
00:24:19
lack of understanding about the nature
00:24:21
of the world like the resurrection for
00:24:22
example.
00:24:23
>> Yeah. So this is uh this is in my field
00:24:26
referred to as mythological drift. So
00:24:28
how do we factor in making sure that
00:24:32
mythological drift doesn't happen? I
00:24:33
think there are a couple things related
00:24:34
to what you said. First off, I think I
00:24:37
would be careful in trying to ascribe
00:24:40
the ancient world as being
00:24:41
pres-scientific and therefore largely
00:24:44
say ignorant. I mean, even when the
00:24:46
angel comes to Mary in the gospel story
00:24:49
and says, "You're going to be with
00:24:51
child." Mary's objection to the angel is
00:24:53
a scientific one. I haven't met the
00:24:56
minimum requirements of how babies are
00:24:57
made, therefore I can't be pregnant,
00:25:00
right? So, she's not dumb, right? She's
00:25:02
not just at face value accepting that,
00:25:05
you know, well, I believe in angels and
00:25:07
so, you know, this kind of magic thing
00:25:09
can happen. she's still objecting
00:25:11
scientifically even though she might not
00:25:13
have the terminology to understand like
00:25:15
the complexities of child birth and
00:25:17
embryology and all of that. So I would
00:25:20
say you know this is what uh the writer
00:25:22
CS Lewis calls chronological snobbery
00:25:24
that he says you know we need to be
00:25:26
careful of not to ascribe the ancient
00:25:28
world as being more ignorant and stupid
00:25:31
than than you know just because we are a
00:25:33
product of the enlightenment and we
00:25:34
understand scientific things. Yeah. The
00:25:36
second thing is I think the the Chinese
00:25:38
whispers or the telephone game or
00:25:40
whatever you call it is a good is a good
00:25:43
kind of case study. I think where it
00:25:45
falls short is that if you play the
00:25:47
telephone game, if you play Chinese
00:25:48
whispers, there are rules in order to
00:25:52
corrupt the message. So you have to
00:25:54
whisper, you can only say it once. You
00:25:57
have to do it one person to one person.
00:26:00
In an oral culture, you would have been
00:26:02
hearing these stories constantly. So
00:26:04
when some of these stories are told,
00:26:07
they're being told within a lifetime
00:26:08
where there could have been individuals
00:26:11
who say the story of the feeding of the
00:26:13
5000, that's a lot of people. So there's
00:26:16
a lot of witnesses to this particular
00:26:17
event. So if you're writing this down,
00:26:20
there's an aspect of there are people
00:26:22
out there who could verify what is being
00:26:25
said, at least orally, not necessarily
00:26:27
like literarily. Likewise,
00:26:30
what we have in the gospel accounts,
00:26:32
particularly after Jesus's death, when
00:26:34
the disciples proclaiming his
00:26:36
resurrection, they go back to Jerusalem,
00:26:38
which is the scene of the crime. So,
00:26:40
they go back to the exact place where
00:26:42
Jesus was crucified and start telling
00:26:43
people he was risen from the dead. If
00:26:46
there is some aspect of say
00:26:48
disingenuousness and making up a story,
00:26:51
don't go back to the place where
00:26:52
everybody could have seen that thing
00:26:54
happen to that degree. Right? So in in
00:26:57
one sense, Chinese whispers is is a
00:27:01
faulty analogy in that it's less like
00:27:04
one person whispering into another's ear
00:27:06
and more like a 100 people in a room all
00:27:09
saying communicating the thing verbally
00:27:11
and then getting the other people to
00:27:13
repeat it back to them and then
00:27:15
corroborating with the other individuals
00:27:18
of what's going on. Now I think there I
00:27:21
think your point in in the story of your
00:27:23
your grandmother and you know the the
00:27:25
the letter and is a good one. You know
00:27:27
how do we remember things? Do you
00:27:30
remember 9/11?
00:27:33
>> Yes, I do. Yes. And I was in the the UK
00:27:35
at the time.
00:27:36
>> Could you tell me a little bit more
00:27:38
vividly what what you were doing on 911
00:27:41
compared to your grandmother and the
00:27:43
letter?
00:27:44
>> Yes, I could. Yeah. I remember coming
00:27:46
home from school and like watching it on
00:27:47
the screen and my and my dad having it
00:27:49
on the screen and usual just looking at
00:27:50
the screen.
00:27:51
>> Yeah, me too. So whereas I couldn't tell
00:27:53
you much of what else happened during an
00:27:56
average day in that year, I could tell
00:27:58
you what happened on September 11th,
00:28:01
2001. And that's because of the nature
00:28:04
of what was going on. And I think when
00:28:06
we're talking about the gospel stories
00:28:08
in particular, first you have what I
00:28:11
genuinely believe are eyewitness
00:28:12
accounts from at least the source
00:28:14
information coming from a group who
00:28:17
would have heard Jesus be preaching
00:28:20
these things multiple times in multiple
00:28:22
different settings. Like it's it's
00:28:24
probably likely myself as an itinerate I
00:28:28
have given the same talk on a particular
00:28:29
subject quite a few times. Yeah. And I
00:28:31
joke with my wife that she could give my
00:28:33
talk on the historical reliability of
00:28:35
the Bible herself. You know, if I'm
00:28:36
sick, I'll just send my wife, right? Cuz
00:28:38
she's heard it so many times. I think
00:28:40
that's the case that's going on with the
00:28:42
disciples.
00:28:43
>> There's an aspect of they would have
00:28:45
heard say the biatitudes.
00:28:47
>> Yeah.
00:28:47
>> That Jesus most likely more than once is
00:28:51
the case because that's just the nature
00:28:52
of not just itinerate speaking but even
00:28:55
traveling rabbis in in the ancient
00:28:57
world. And then you have this event that
00:29:00
is kind of earthshattering in terms of
00:29:03
their narrative of who they are. They've
00:29:05
been traveling with this rabbi for 3
00:29:08
years straight. They've been hearing his
00:29:10
teaching. They've been seeing miracles
00:29:12
at least that are recorded in the
00:29:13
gospels.
00:29:15
Pretty phenomenal things. And then he
00:29:18
gets taken and he's murdered publicly.
00:29:21
And they think it's over. They think,
00:29:24
you know, there are other messianic
00:29:25
movements in the ancient world. most of
00:29:28
which you and I aren't hearing on a
00:29:30
regular basis because when those
00:29:32
individuals die, their movement dies
00:29:34
with them. And so that's what they think
00:29:35
is happening, right? So they think,
00:29:37
"Okay, we're done."
00:29:40
So the story is they're hiding in this
00:29:42
upper room and they're scared. In fact,
00:29:44
it's the women who take on the
00:29:46
responsibility of like going and
00:29:47
figuring things out, which in terms of
00:29:50
the time period is actually an
00:29:51
embarrassing fact because of the kind of
00:29:54
cultural dynamics of what's going on.
00:29:57
And so
00:29:59
you have the disciples who think it's
00:30:01
over. What is it that has 11 scared
00:30:04
disciples because one of them Judas goes
00:30:06
and he kills himself. 11 scared
00:30:08
disciples hiding in an upper room
00:30:09
thinking that's it. We're done. We might
00:30:11
as well, you know, Peter, James, and
00:30:13
John might as well just go back to being
00:30:14
fishermen cuz that's all she wrote. to
00:30:18
then having the boldness to go out and
00:30:21
actually proclaim this message
00:30:23
ultimately to
00:30:25
the level of persecution and hardship
00:30:27
that they endure for the rest of their
00:30:29
lives. Well, it's that their rabbi then
00:30:32
shows up alive again. And so, at
00:30:35
minimum, I think what we can say is that
00:30:38
this is a pretty drastic event that
00:30:41
takes place in their life. It's a
00:30:42
comparative to a 9/11 event for them.
00:30:45
And so in terms of like the memory
00:30:47
imprint that they are experiencing
00:30:51
for the murder of their rabbi of their
00:30:55
teacher and then something
00:30:58
happening where they then go
00:31:03
for the rest of their lives. The
00:31:05
martyrdom stories are a little bit
00:31:07
tricky in terms of their historical
00:31:08
reliability. I think a few of them we
00:31:11
can say did happen.
00:31:13
a lot of them is kind of up in the air
00:31:15
but at minimum they suffered
00:31:17
persecution.
00:31:18
>> So the story in the Bible is that he was
00:31:21
killed on the cross, murdered on the
00:31:24
cross and then he was put into a tomb
00:31:26
>> and then who saw him come out of the
00:31:30
tomb.
00:31:31
>> So nobody physically sees him come out
00:31:33
of the tomb. But the women go to the
00:31:36
tomb in the morning and on the third day
00:31:40
and the tomb is empty. And so there are
00:31:44
four accounts, right? And I think it's
00:31:46
interesting also that we have four
00:31:48
accounts that kind of give different
00:31:49
angles on the stories. They're not it's
00:31:52
not as if they got together and they
00:31:53
corroborated and all gave the same
00:31:55
story. The fact is that we have four
00:31:57
accounts that kind of capitalize on
00:31:58
different angles, which the
00:32:01
differentiation in detail, I think,
00:32:03
actually gives credibility to the the
00:32:07
reliability of it. Because if they were
00:32:09
all telling the same thing, you could
00:32:10
argue that they got together and they
00:32:12
colluded. They don't do that. In fact,
00:32:14
they they touch on different aspects of
00:32:17
the story.
00:32:18
>> Are these people saying that they saw
00:32:19
him walk out? Are they saying that they
00:32:21
just saw it empty? What is the claims
00:32:22
being made about his resurrection from
00:32:24
these witnesses?
00:32:25
>> Yeah. So, the tomb is empty.
00:32:26
>> The tomb is empty.
00:32:27
>> And so, it's interesting in in one of
00:32:28
the accounts, um, Mary's at the tomb,
00:32:31
and she actually talks to Jesus, but she
00:32:35
confuses him with a gardener. Now, I
00:32:37
think it's it's interesting that she
00:32:39
doesn't confuse the gardener with Jesus.
00:32:42
She confuses Jesus with the gardener.
00:32:44
Like, she thinks that that this person
00:32:45
she's talking to isn't Jesus. She
00:32:47
doesn't recognize him at first. And she
00:32:49
she asks him, you know, what happened?
00:32:51
Why is the tomb opened? Where did the
00:32:53
body go? And then there's also an
00:32:55
account of an angel appearing and
00:32:57
saying, why are you looking for the
00:32:58
living among the dead? He's not here.
00:33:00
He's risen. And then they go back to the
00:33:02
disciples who are, you know, hiding in
00:33:04
this upper room. Mary says, you know, I
00:33:07
I've I met the tomb's empty. I've met
00:33:09
Jesus. Jesus is not in the the tomb.
00:33:11
He's risen. And some of them don't even
00:33:14
believe her. They think she's crazy.
00:33:16
Now, we don't have like an eyewitness
00:33:19
account of the tomb being open. And this
00:33:22
is actually an embarrassing fact in the
00:33:24
ancient world. So some of those other
00:33:26
gospels that I mentioned earlier that
00:33:28
are written later on, Gospel of Thomas,
00:33:31
Judas, Mary, Peter, there's one of them,
00:33:33
the Gospel of Peter, which is actually
00:33:36
trying to remedy this fact that women
00:33:40
are the first eyewitnesses to the empty
00:33:42
tomb, which is a which is an
00:33:44
embarrassing fact in the ancient world.
00:33:46
If that's not true, if they made it up,
00:33:49
it seems very unlikely that they would
00:33:51
have done that because women are not
00:33:54
considered good eyewitnesses in either
00:33:56
Greco Roman or unfortunately Jewish
00:33:58
society in this time period. So the
00:34:00
gospel of Peter tries to remedy the
00:34:03
situation by having all of the right
00:34:04
people in the right place at the right
00:34:07
time. It has the Jewish and the Roman
00:34:09
officials camping out in front of the
00:34:10
tomb when it actually happens. And then
00:34:13
has this recounted the story of the the
00:34:15
literally the stone moving, Jesus coming
00:34:17
out, all these things. Now, we know it's
00:34:20
not historically reliable. We know that
00:34:22
because of when it was written. We also
00:34:24
know that on the eve of Passover, the
00:34:26
priests would not be camping out in
00:34:27
front of a dead body. It's just
00:34:29
historically um anacronistic.
00:34:32
But it is an account of a literary
00:34:36
source later on that is embarrassed by
00:34:40
what we find in here about the
00:34:42
biographical information of the empty
00:34:45
tomb.
00:34:46
>> So is it just two women that said they
00:34:48
met Jesus in some form after his death?
00:34:51
Mary being one of them which was his
00:34:53
mother.
00:34:54
>> No.
00:34:54
>> Who's Mary?
00:34:55
>> Mary. So there are a number of Marys in
00:34:57
in the New Testament. Um this was Mary
00:34:59
Magdalene.
00:35:00
>> Okay.
00:35:00
>> Yeah. who who was like a close
00:35:02
associate.
00:35:03
>> Okay. Like a friend.
00:35:04
>> Yeah.
00:35:05
>> Okay. So, a friend. And then was there
00:35:07
is it just her that says she saw him
00:35:09
>> in there was a group of them.
00:35:11
>> A group of them.
00:35:11
>> Yeah. Of the women.
00:35:12
>> Okay. And they were separate when they
00:35:14
saw him. They weren't they were on their
00:35:15
own.
00:35:16
>> They were together. So, one of the
00:35:17
gospel only mentions Mary.
00:35:19
>> I believe it's the Gospel of John. But
00:35:21
like I said before, it implies that
00:35:23
there are more because she says we don't
00:35:25
know where they put the body.
00:35:27
>> Okay. So though that account only has
00:35:31
her
00:35:33
recounting it, it implies that there are
00:35:36
others and then the other gospels have
00:35:38
more women that are going to the tomb.
00:35:40
>> As a percentage, what degree of
00:35:41
certainty do you have that he was
00:35:43
resurrected and that um he was who he
00:35:46
said he was? Cuz I agree with you that
00:35:48
this character clearly existed like
00:35:50
Jesus clearly existed. I personally
00:35:51
believe that he was he was killed
00:35:54
>> probably on a cross.
00:35:55
>> But then you get to this point of
00:35:56
resurrection which you have to then
00:35:58
believe in something supernatural.
00:35:59
>> Yeah.
00:36:00
>> So what's the probability you'd assign
00:36:02
to it?
00:36:02
>> I I
00:36:03
>> if it was like likely, unlikely, very
00:36:04
likely.
00:36:05
>> They're all likely because I think that
00:36:08
what the gospel authors are doing is
00:36:11
communicating truth. And I don't
00:36:15
ultimately see an overabundance of
00:36:17
reason why they would write what they
00:36:19
wrote other than actually recounting a
00:36:23
story of what took place.
00:36:25
>> I grew up in a place called Plymouth in
00:36:27
the UK. I was born in Africa and in my
00:36:29
local park there was this big poster on
00:36:30
the wall about the white lady. I'll put
00:36:33
it up on the screen. It's like a big
00:36:34
legend in our city. It's this park and
00:36:36
everybody says that they see this white
00:36:37
lady in the park that was killed. And
00:36:39
actually, there's a big board explaining
00:36:41
her life, but it's all just accounts of
00:36:43
people that say they've seen her.
00:36:45
>> You have things like the Loch Ness
00:36:46
monster in Scotland as well, where
00:36:47
there's been 1,500 sightings of this big
00:36:49
monster in the river. And even up until
00:36:51
recent times, 2025, there was a surge of
00:36:54
sightings of the Loch Ness monster
00:36:56
called the Black Mass in in in the bay.
00:37:00
>> Um, and that started in 565 AD. So, one
00:37:04
of the things that I've always sort of
00:37:06
struggled with when I think about humans
00:37:08
saying they saw something is we still
00:37:10
today have sightings of UFOs and Loch
00:37:13
Ness monsters and white ladies in parks
00:37:15
that become legend. And actually with
00:37:17
the Loch Ness monster, it's pretty
00:37:19
interesting that even today there are
00:37:21
sightings all the time of this monster
00:37:23
that lives in the river. Now, I think
00:37:24
maybe me and you both agree that there's
00:37:26
no monster in the river,
00:37:28
>> but there's something going on. There's
00:37:29
something in human nature where we do
00:37:31
have like a proclivity to engage in
00:37:35
supernatural sightings and then once
00:37:36
we've heard it once, we then reinforce
00:37:38
that we've seen it too. And even as like
00:37:40
a young man, I mean, maybe you believe
00:37:41
this, but like I believe that there was
00:37:45
a woman that would stand on the landing
00:37:46
of my home and it would like wake me up
00:37:48
and I would run and and tell my parents
00:37:50
that the lady stood on the landing.
00:37:52
Again, there's people watching this that
00:37:53
think that there was actually a lady.
00:37:54
Probably maybe there was. But I you know
00:37:56
what I'm getting at is like how do how
00:37:57
can we trust human accounts of these
00:37:58
things when clearly humans have an
00:38:00
ability to make make things up that
00:38:02
aren't real in some situations.
00:38:04
>> Sure. Part of the answer to the question
00:38:07
is one of the evidences for Jesus's
00:38:09
resurrection is the fact that you and I
00:38:11
are still talking about it almost 2,000
00:38:13
years later.
00:38:13
>> My friend said this to me. I was telling
00:38:15
you before about my Christian friend. He
00:38:16
was like why are we still talking about
00:38:17
it? Well I we can't prove it.
00:38:19
>> It wasn't it didn't happen. So we're
00:38:20
always going to talk about it. there's
00:38:22
there's never going to be I mean unless
00:38:23
>> something happens
00:38:24
>> right the difference is that there are
00:38:26
these other messianic movements that
00:38:28
happened in the ancient world
00:38:30
>> and so uh like uh Simon Barora the
00:38:34
reason why we're not talking about Simon
00:38:35
Barora as a messianic figure is because
00:38:37
he died and his movement died with him
00:38:40
>> and his disciples didn't go out and then
00:38:42
proclaim his continued message until
00:38:46
like to their own detriment so I would
00:38:49
say a few things I would say liars make
00:38:51
poor martyrs in that you will die for
00:38:54
something you believe is true, but the
00:38:58
chances of you dying for something you
00:39:00
know is not true
00:39:01
>> are less likely. So if we're talking
00:39:04
about the disciples and especially if
00:39:09
what they're getting for this particular
00:39:11
proclamation is they're being ostracized
00:39:15
from their own communities, pagan
00:39:17
gentile communities and the Jewish
00:39:19
communities because remember there was
00:39:20
persecution on both sides because it was
00:39:23
at a certain point in time continuing to
00:39:26
say that Jesus was the Messiah and on
00:39:28
top of that that he was God himself
00:39:31
was not very popular Within the early
00:39:33
Jesus communities, there's a complexity
00:39:35
to the fact that
00:39:38
people usually lie. You look at cultic
00:39:40
figures, right? Right. Cult leaders
00:39:42
usually do things for prominence or
00:39:46
money or sex or influence. The
00:39:51
interesting thing about the early
00:39:52
disciples is they get none of that. In
00:39:54
fact, they almost get the complete
00:39:56
opposite of that in that Jesus says,
00:39:59
"You're going to be persecuted. you're
00:40:01
going to be put in front of tri
00:40:03
tribunals and you're going to be
00:40:05
interrogated. And that's exactly what
00:40:07
happens. And they know that there is
00:40:10
there's a danger to this because we have
00:40:12
in the book of Acts, which is the book
00:40:15
after the gospels, we have a recounting
00:40:17
of the first martyr of Steven.
00:40:19
>> I think of like someone like Martin
00:40:20
Luther King or Gandhi as being, you
00:40:22
know, leaders from history that appeared
00:40:24
to be from what I've understood very
00:40:26
selfless and actually realized that they
00:40:28
were all going to die. I'll never forget
00:40:29
the speech actually where Martin Luther
00:40:31
King says, "I've been to the mountain
00:40:32
top." He was a very religious man, very
00:40:34
Christian man, and says, "I've been to
00:40:35
the mountain top. You guys get there,
00:40:36
but I don't get there with you."
00:40:38
>> Right?
00:40:38
>> And then from the information I had, he
00:40:40
died very, very shortly thereafter. And
00:40:42
as he's saying, "I don't get there with
00:40:44
you." He's he's emotional in his face.
00:40:46
You see him crying. The video is was
00:40:48
very con persuasive of the Christianity,
00:40:50
by the way.
00:40:51
>> Um, and then he's pulled off stage and
00:40:53
then he's shot thereafter. feels like a
00:40:55
man that knew he wasn't going to live
00:40:57
much longer but was willing to put his
00:41:00
cause ahead of um his own mortality and
00:41:04
um I guess Jesus was doing the same
00:41:06
>> in a certain regard in terms of the
00:41:07
disciples though I think like if they
00:41:09
know this isn't true if they know that
00:41:11
there's this kind of this has been
00:41:13
mythological drift if things have been
00:41:15
exaggerated
00:41:17
why then especially experiencing that
00:41:19
persecution seeing their friends die in
00:41:22
that kind of setting do they continue to
00:41:25
go on and do it.
00:41:26
>> I think they definitely believed it was
00:41:28
true.
00:41:28
>> Yes. I think at minimum whatever is
00:41:29
going on they like you you look at some
00:41:32
of these uh secular historians and they
00:41:36
look at the data and they say whatever's
00:41:37
going on the disciples believe something
00:41:39
happened that they saw something
00:41:41
>> and so the I just think that the
00:41:43
explanations
00:41:45
of the alternatives of that actually
00:41:47
happening are insufficient in so far as
00:41:50
how they actually explain the data. Do
00:41:52
you have any doubt?
00:41:54
>> Oh, of course.
00:41:55
>> Okay. So, you have at least even 1%
00:41:57
doubt.
00:41:57
>> Oh, definitely. And I think especially
00:41:59
when there are times of things that are
00:42:01
far more existential than historical,
00:42:03
when times of like struggle and pain and
00:42:06
suffering, and I look at the world and I
00:42:09
look at how messy it is, the children
00:42:12
who die young, people who are abused,
00:42:14
all of these things, I there are moments
00:42:17
where I think, how how could there be a
00:42:20
good God? I mean, I'm not immune to
00:42:22
doubt. Um, and and the interesting thing
00:42:24
that I find about the Bible is that the
00:42:26
Bible is very open to the God of the
00:42:29
Bible being open to us coming to him
00:42:32
with our doubts.
00:42:33
>> Mhm.
00:42:33
>> You know, onethird of the book of
00:42:36
Psalms, which is like right in the
00:42:37
middle of the Bible, this kind of poetic
00:42:39
literature, if you want to call it that,
00:42:41
are sometimes referred to as the lament
00:42:43
or the complaint psalms. It's things
00:42:45
like Psalm 22, my God, my God, why have
00:42:48
you forsaken me? Why are you so far from
00:42:50
me? I like I cry out by day and I hear
00:42:54
no answer. And I think what's
00:42:57
interesting that I find with the Bible
00:42:59
is its transparency in saying we're
00:43:01
going to struggle. You know, there's
00:43:03
this really great story in the Gospel of
00:43:04
John. Well, this is in a couple of the
00:43:07
instances of the Gospels where John the
00:43:10
Baptist who's like Jesus's cousin and
00:43:12
good friend, he's been in prison because
00:43:14
he's been speaking out against Herod.
00:43:16
He's been being a little bit too verbal
00:43:18
politically. And so he gets taken and
00:43:20
he's in prison. And though he's the one
00:43:22
that baptized Jesus and said, you know,
00:43:25
behold the lamb of God who takes away
00:43:26
the sin of the world. When he's in
00:43:28
prison, he doubts and he sends his
00:43:31
disciples over to Jesus to ask, are you
00:43:34
the Messiah? Are you the one we're
00:43:35
waiting for? Or should we we be waiting
00:43:37
for another? Now, in that interaction,
00:43:39
Jesus actually says, John the Baptist is
00:43:43
the greatest of all men born of women,
00:43:46
which is basically everybody, right? And
00:43:48
yet in that very same setting, John the
00:43:51
Baptist is doubting
00:43:53
that Jesus is who he says he is because
00:43:55
he's experiencing pain and suffering.
00:43:58
>> On that point of um you seeing you know
00:44:01
horrific things happening in the world
00:44:02
and then having doubts. I think for me
00:44:05
that was one of the persuasive arguments
00:44:06
of the like new atheist movement that I
00:44:08
became a part of when I was like 18
00:44:10
years old which was I think Richard
00:44:11
Dawkins had said about you know if God
00:44:14
is all loving
00:44:15
>> then why would he let a 2-year-old kid
00:44:18
in Africa have their eyeball eaten out
00:44:20
from the inside by a parasite.
00:44:23
>> Yeah.
00:44:23
>> Like if if if I could intervene with
00:44:25
that because you know the assertion is
00:44:26
that God is omnipotent or powerful and
00:44:28
omnisient or present.
00:44:30
>> Yeah. If I could intervene with that as
00:44:32
a human, I would stop that. And so if
00:44:34
God is omnipower, omnipotent, sorry, all
00:44:37
powerful and omnipresent, knows
00:44:39
everything and is everywhere, then why
00:44:41
wouldn't he intervene with the baby
00:44:42
having its eyeball eaten out from the
00:44:44
inside?
00:44:44
>> Yeah, it's it's a good point. And I
00:44:47
think if there is an objection that is
00:44:50
truly impactful on Christianity on in
00:44:55
the atheist corner, it is the problem of
00:44:56
evil and always has been because it's
00:44:59
far more of an emotional and existential
00:45:02
question than it is an intellectual
00:45:03
question. Now, part of the problem with
00:45:05
it is that if we're talking about evil
00:45:07
with a capital E, we're implying that
00:45:08
there's a good with a capital G. And so
00:45:11
I think we do run into an issue when
00:45:13
saying that evil exists or implying that
00:45:17
good exists. And if we're implying that
00:45:18
good exists, we're implying that there's
00:45:20
a moral law to adhere to to call the
00:45:23
good good and the evil evil. And if
00:45:25
there's a moral law, then there has to
00:45:26
be a moral lawgiver. And that's where we
00:45:28
come into issues with is this subjective
00:45:32
or is this objective. I think the
00:45:34
atheist movement would argue that that
00:45:37
moral good is virtue of what helps me to
00:45:40
survive. So like watching a small child
00:45:45
suffer in such a way.
00:45:47
>> If I didn't feel anything bad about
00:45:48
that,
00:45:49
>> yeah,
00:45:49
>> then I wouldn't have the wiring for
00:45:52
survival because I wouldn't have the
00:45:54
proclivity to defend a suffering child.
00:45:56
If I don't have that, then I probably
00:45:58
don't reproduce and I don't pass on my
00:46:00
genes and then I'm selected out of
00:46:02
existence. So that pain I feel when I
00:46:04
see a child suffering is a function of
00:46:06
my evolutionary mechanics that make me
00:46:10
more likely to survive and anyone that
00:46:11
didn't have that wouldn't have survived
00:46:13
and wouldn't be here now.
00:46:14
>> Sure.
00:46:14
>> So evolution therefore is the answer.
00:46:16
>> I think that might suffice in certain
00:46:20
instances. However, it's still sort of
00:46:22
smuggling in moral categories into a
00:46:26
biological explanation. So part of I
00:46:28
mean you read Richard Dawkins, you read
00:46:30
you read River Out of Eden and he has
00:46:32
that section where he talks about you
00:46:33
know we shouldn't expect to see any
00:46:35
rhyme or reason good or bad you know DNA
00:46:38
neither knows nor cares. DNA just is and
00:46:40
we dance to its music. And there's an
00:46:42
aspect of Dawkins himself in that volume
00:46:44
at least at that time when he wrote it
00:46:46
articulating that at the end of it all
00:46:50
there is no such thing as actually you
00:46:51
can't call that parasite in that that
00:46:54
boy's eye evil. You can say I don't like
00:46:57
it, but to to import this moral category
00:47:01
of evil is actually to import an idea.
00:47:04
And this is actually what Dawkins was
00:47:06
criticized by by individuals like John
00:47:08
Gray, the philosopher who taught at the
00:47:10
London School of Economics. And he says,
00:47:12
you know, you're a really great
00:47:14
biologist,
00:47:15
but then you want to impart actual
00:47:17
intrinsic value to people. And if you're
00:47:20
looking at a simple selfish DNA
00:47:24
perspective, you can't actually ascribe
00:47:26
that because your DNA, your selfish DNA
00:47:29
exists to carry on its
00:47:32
selfish DNA. And so in one sense, that
00:47:35
child has no bearing on you. Now, it
00:47:38
might have like a a protective mechanism
00:47:41
where you want to figure out why the
00:47:42
child got the parasite, and so you try
00:47:44
to avoid that in order to not get the
00:47:45
parasite yourself. But science
00:47:50
can't actually give you an explanation
00:47:53
for what the moral implications are in
00:47:57
that instance. Let me give you an
00:47:58
example.
00:47:58
>> I think I understand the point there. Um
00:48:00
it's essentially asserting that like why
00:48:02
does that child matter to me? Because my
00:48:04
DNA should just be trying to take care
00:48:06
of itself.
00:48:07
>> Um I guess in biology there's um I don't
00:48:10
always know who my child is. But also
00:48:12
from an evolutionary perspective, if we
00:48:14
were raised in communities and tribes,
00:48:16
we took care of all of our the children.
00:48:18
>> Sure.
00:48:18
>> In in the surroundings, I would take
00:48:20
care of my brother's children and he
00:48:21
would take care of mine, therefore.
00:48:23
>> Yep. Yeah.
00:48:24
>> And again, that goes back to the point
00:48:26
of survival, which means that I'm more
00:48:27
likely to survive if I take care of like
00:48:29
my community sort of. You you read
00:48:32
something like uh the origin of species
00:48:35
though like like uh Darwin himself
00:48:39
when he's articulating the survival of
00:48:41
the fittest there is an aspect of
00:48:46
you shouldn't take care of those people
00:48:49
because they're actually bringing the
00:48:52
genetic gene pool down. So we see even
00:48:55
in like the eugenics movement pulling a
00:48:57
lot from individuals like Darwin in
00:49:01
order to validate the fact that in order
00:49:04
to carry on your selfish DNA, this idea
00:49:07
of taking care of the marginalized and
00:49:09
those with on the fringes of society and
00:49:11
those who are the the lesser than is is
00:49:14
not evolutionary advantageous because
00:49:17
survival of the fittest implies that the
00:49:19
fittest should survive and these are
00:49:21
obviously not the fittest. It's actually
00:49:23
a Judeo-Christian ethic in the
00:49:25
understanding of everybody having equal
00:49:28
value that we should be taking care of
00:49:31
people because they have intrinsic
00:49:32
value, not exttrinsic value. That allows
00:49:35
us to then even import an idea of taking
00:49:38
care of those who are not necessarily
00:49:42
specifically related to me and mine. And
00:49:44
it comes back to okay, where are we
00:49:46
grounding this objectivity in? cuz there
00:49:50
have been societies that have attempted
00:49:52
to do it in like a might is right aspect
00:49:56
and and you ground the objectivity of
00:49:59
what we say is right in a society that
00:50:02
says this is better for the most amount
00:50:05
of individuals within a particular
00:50:07
community. I think about um Yevel Noah
00:50:11
Harrari Harari in his book Sapiens where
00:50:13
he says that the real defining trait of
00:50:15
>> our species versus other species was our
00:50:17
ability to collaborate and basically
00:50:19
scratch each other's backs
00:50:21
>> and that that meant that we had um
00:50:23
evolutionary advantages because if we
00:50:25
could work together in a big group and
00:50:27
we could believe in stories and we
00:50:28
believe in money and prison and
00:50:30
governments etc. we could band together
00:50:32
and take on the lion or band together
00:50:34
and take on the elephant or whatever.
00:50:36
And it's actually that in part there you
00:50:38
have like I need to take care of you,
00:50:40
you need to take care of me and we're
00:50:41
going to reciprocate that altruism uh
00:50:44
and increase our survival chances. So
00:50:47
again that might explain why I care
00:50:49
about that kid um because the species
00:50:53
that didn't
00:50:54
>> Uhhuh.
00:50:54
>> they would never have been able to band
00:50:56
together and take on the elephant.
00:50:58
>> Yes. I think it's largely our modern
00:51:02
perspective living in a society where we
00:51:05
are uh starting on second base already
00:51:09
with our moral perspectives, right? We
00:51:11
have inherited all of these moral
00:51:13
categories because of our
00:51:14
Judeo-Christian ethic. If you look at
00:51:17
basically every society prior to this or
00:51:19
even societies in the east, that's not a
00:51:23
given, right? That's not an assumption.
00:51:25
Especially in societies that have say uh
00:51:28
understandings of karmic cycles whether
00:51:31
that's in like Buddhism or Hinduism the
00:51:33
idea of altruism is actually can be
00:51:36
categorized as an evil because in the
00:51:38
cycle of samsara of birth life death and
00:51:40
rebirth you are actually the your lot in
00:51:44
this life is due to your wrongdoing in
00:51:46
the last life. So in helping someone
00:51:48
like that you are actually inhibiting
00:51:50
them from being reincarnated better on
00:51:53
the other side. So an idea like altruism
00:51:56
doesn't exist within that eastern
00:51:57
society. And if you look in the ancient
00:51:59
world, let's pick on the Babylonians.
00:52:01
The Babylonians, if they were to read
00:52:03
Dawkins' River out of Eden, would
00:52:04
basically say, "Yeah, exactly." Right.
00:52:07
So they have this creation story. It's
00:52:08
called the Inumalish, and it's this big
00:52:11
battle of the gods, and it's uh it's an
00:52:13
origin story, an attempt to explain why
00:52:17
everything is here. But the conclusion
00:52:19
of it is basically you are a product of
00:52:22
a big battle and a mistake, right? The
00:52:26
one god loses and you, everything around
00:52:29
you, the earth, the sky, it's just the
00:52:32
remains of the gods that lost. So
00:52:36
meaning, value, purpose, not really
00:52:39
ultimately. You're just the product of
00:52:41
time plus matter plus chance as well.
00:52:43
It's just framed within a religious
00:52:45
perspective. whereas Dawkins frames it
00:52:47
in a natural materialistic perspective.
00:52:50
So where do we get the categories
00:52:55
to even say that we should be taking
00:52:58
care of people in communities outside of
00:53:02
our specific community
00:53:05
because in some cultures they have the
00:53:07
ethic of love thy neighbor but in others
00:53:08
it's eat thy neighbor and so the
00:53:10
question is which society do you want to
00:53:12
pick? And you're saying that that came
00:53:14
from Judeo-Christian values.
00:53:16
>> Yes,
00:53:16
>> I would agree. Yeah, I would agree that.
00:53:18
I think I'm trying to understand if it's
00:53:20
innate in us from a God what's good and
00:53:24
evil or whether it's, you know, we we
00:53:26
all subscribe to a culture that was, you
00:53:28
know, the foundation of that was these
00:53:30
Christian values and um yeah, which one
00:53:33
is it?
00:53:34
>> Yeah. Well, was I born with a good and
00:53:36
evil or was 2,000 or 3,000 years ago
00:53:39
when Jesus came to be and we had these
00:53:40
books? Did that just influence them?
00:53:43
>> Yeah. Well, I think ultimately there's
00:53:45
an aspect of our conscience that's
00:53:46
imprinted on us that we we understand
00:53:50
ethics to some degree or another, but
00:53:52
the framework to actually find the
00:53:56
objectivity of that ethic is found in
00:53:59
the revelation of specific revelation in
00:54:02
scripture.
00:54:03
>> Do you believe in evolution?
00:54:05
>> I don't.
00:54:05
>> You don't believe it's true?
00:54:07
>> No. I am open to the fact that I don't
00:54:09
think that a belief in evolution
00:54:11
undermines Christianity in any way.
00:54:13
However, I'm and prefacing this by
00:54:15
saying I'm not a scientist. I'm an
00:54:17
advocate for intelligent design and I
00:54:20
would basically punt the complex
00:54:24
conversations of evolutionary biology to
00:54:28
individuals who are far more studied
00:54:29
than me like Steven Meyer and Jonathan
00:54:32
Mcclache and John Tours and
00:54:36
Douglas Axe and those individuals who
00:54:38
have studied it. At the exact same time
00:54:40
though it also depends on what you mean
00:54:42
by evolution, right? So like adaptation
00:54:45
genetically is a thing
00:54:47
>> I guess. So I'm saying do you believe
00:54:48
that we evolved from very simple
00:54:51
organisms to become a human that you see
00:54:54
today?
00:54:54
>> No.
00:54:54
>> And the argument for that would be you
00:54:56
know I share 98% of the same DNA as like
00:54:58
a chimpanzeee and we have these fossil
00:55:00
records which seem to show a progression
00:55:02
over time.
00:55:03
>> You don't believe that's true?
00:55:04
>> No I don't. But at the exact same time,
00:55:06
I think, you know, there are individuals
00:55:08
within the Christian faith, intelligent
00:55:11
people who do and have no problem with
00:55:13
understanding of a theistic evolutionary
00:55:15
model. However, I think in the effort of
00:55:20
survival of the fittest, I still think
00:55:23
that you're starting a few miles down
00:55:25
the road in answering the question of
00:55:27
the arrival of the fittest. How do minds
00:55:30
come from mindless matter? How does
00:55:32
everything come from nothing? How do how
00:55:36
do we answer those questions? And I
00:55:38
think that's why you can use the
00:55:41
evolutionary model as an explanation of
00:55:42
how God has actually created right the
00:55:47
biology of the situation. But I think
00:55:51
the bigger question is the cosmological
00:55:55
questions. How did this all get going?
00:55:57
You know, the big bang, what was the big
00:56:00
banger?
00:56:01
How did that first ball get rolling? And
00:56:05
then why can you and I, Stephen, sit
00:56:08
here and like I said before, have the
00:56:10
three lbs of gray matter in my head kind
00:56:13
of uh ruminate over these very complex
00:56:18
questions.
00:56:19
>> You know, I I think it was on the
00:56:21
Galapicus Islands. I'm probably going to
00:56:22
butcher this, but I'll I'll do my very
00:56:24
best. They, you know, the sailors went
00:56:26
to an island, they left a bird there,
00:56:28
they came back 50 years later, the
00:56:30
bird's beak had grown to be very, very
00:56:32
long
00:56:33
>> because the prey on that island that it
00:56:36
was eating were in in hole. So, they
00:56:38
needed longer beaks. So, it kind of
00:56:40
shows us that if you leave an animal in
00:56:43
an environment, it will adapt and it's,
00:56:45
you know, it will select out the the
00:56:47
short beak birds for the long beak
00:56:49
birds. And just in that short period of
00:56:51
time, you can see that it's like, you
00:56:52
know, it's becoming a different type of
00:56:54
animal. And if you extrapolate that out
00:56:57
over a long long period of time, almost
00:56:59
an inconceivable amount of time, you
00:57:01
know, maybe hundreds of millions of
00:57:02
years,
00:57:03
>> one can understand why like me and a
00:57:05
chimpanzeee,
00:57:07
there are similarities in how we look.
00:57:09
Um, and there are 99% similar like 98%
00:57:12
similarities in my DNA and a chimp
00:57:14
chimpanzeee's DNA. So, one would argue
00:57:15
that we are we have a common ancestor.
00:57:18
Yeah,
00:57:18
>> it's like very compelling evidence to
00:57:20
me.
00:57:20
>> Sure. I mean, it's the transitions going
00:57:22
from as the chimpanzeee type thing,
00:57:25
right? Because we're obviously not
00:57:26
arguing that that we were a chimpanzeee,
00:57:28
a chimpanzeee exist today, but that
00:57:30
yeah, that homminid, whatever that
00:57:32
homminid was,
00:57:33
>> what is the transitionary
00:57:36
fossil explanation whatever that goes
00:57:39
from the monkey to the human being? And
00:57:44
I don't really think we have an answer
00:57:46
for that in terms of consciousness
00:57:48
questions like why what makes our
00:57:52
ability to reason and think and
00:57:56
contemplate different than all of the
00:57:59
other species in the animal kingdom. And
00:58:02
how do we go if we're arguing that, you
00:58:04
know, everything comes from
00:58:06
single-sellled organisms?
00:58:09
I guess you could have a if you want to
00:58:12
call it a time of the gaps explanation,
00:58:15
you know, just just add lots of millions
00:58:17
of years and it solves this issue. I
00:58:19
don't know if I am completely satisfied
00:58:22
with that answer if cuz obviously
00:58:24
there's adaptation but you know if
00:58:27
you're looking at whether there's the
00:58:28
dodo bird example or Darwin's finches
00:58:30
right where the beaks are different um
00:58:32
you're still getting beaked birds and
00:58:35
we've never seen one species turn into a
00:58:38
completely different species
00:58:39
>> the thing that I filled the gap with is
00:58:42
that it's just a matter of time so you
00:58:45
know with the birds example it's like 50
00:58:47
years or something or decades
00:58:49
But when we think about Earth being like
00:58:52
5 billion years old,
00:58:53
>> I think it's almost inconceivable what
00:58:55
can happen over such a long period of
00:58:57
time like it's conceivable that if me
00:58:59
and you went to different parts of
00:59:01
planet Earth and lived in two completely
00:59:03
different environments and then we came
00:59:05
back 5 billion years later and there was
00:59:07
no medicine and no factors helping us to
00:59:10
survive that you know we would have
00:59:12
branched gone in two different
00:59:13
directions completely and you you know
00:59:15
your ancestors who were living in the
00:59:17
jungle might
00:59:19
9 foot and actually what was useful for
00:59:22
survival where I lived in some cave was
00:59:25
being 2t tall,
00:59:26
>> right?
00:59:27
>> And then we wouldn't be able to
00:59:28
reproduce which kind of makes us
00:59:29
different species now. Like that's I
00:59:31
mean that's sounds conceivable for me
00:59:33
over four like 4.5 billion years. Seems
00:59:36
conceivable that
00:59:38
like we both agree on adaptation.
00:59:40
>> Mhm.
00:59:41
>> Like small adaptations. But then if you
00:59:43
expand the time horizon, those small
00:59:45
adaptations become massive.
00:59:46
>> Yeah. I mean ultimately no matter which
00:59:48
way you want to swing it, I think the
00:59:50
adding millions of years as the
00:59:51
explanation is a little bit too
00:59:52
convenient.
00:59:53
>> But I think at the end of the day,
00:59:56
you're still looking at the complexity
00:59:57
in nature that points to a design of
01:00:01
something that is is amazing.
01:00:04
And the the question of okay, how do we
01:00:08
Dawkins is, you know, famous for saying
01:00:11
that that it it has the illusion of
01:00:14
design to it, right? There's not not
01:00:16
actually a design to it. It's just the
01:00:18
illusion of design. But I think, you
01:00:21
know, if we actually look at when Darwin
01:00:24
was writing, they thought the smaller
01:00:27
you got, the simpler it got. And now we
01:00:30
know that the smaller you get, in fact,
01:00:32
the more complex you get.
01:00:34
>> As in the more you zoom into the design,
01:00:36
like the more you zoom into the brain or
01:00:37
>> Yeah. Our understanding of science has
01:00:39
grown exponentially even from Darwin's
01:00:41
day. And there's an aspect of like
01:00:43
Darwinian evolution that is is has moved
01:00:46
on into what we would now call like
01:00:48
neodyarwinian evolutionary theory.
01:00:51
And you look at um individuals like I
01:00:53
mentioned Steven Meyer before and he
01:00:55
even uh has questioned some of these
01:00:58
things about the explanations that are
01:01:03
working as givens for evolutionary
01:01:06
theory. I still don't think it gets us
01:01:08
back to, okay, then why do we have
01:01:11
purpose?
01:01:13
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01:03:18
Where do you think we came from? Like,
01:03:20
where do you think I came from or my
01:03:22
ancestors came from? Do you think they
01:03:23
were put on Earth as humans? Do you
01:03:25
believe in the Adam and Eve story? Do
01:03:26
you think there was some kind of
01:03:27
evolution? And when did you think this
01:03:29
when do you think this happened?
01:03:31
>> So I know that the world is at least 35
01:03:33
years old.
01:03:35
>> Uh I don't think it's an answer that the
01:03:37
Bible is actually attempting to address
01:03:41
in terms of the age of the earth.
01:03:42
>> Billions of years old. I don't see any
01:03:44
reason not to because I don't think that
01:03:46
the creation story in Genesis chapter 1
01:03:48
is necessarily
01:03:50
an attempt to reveal the mechanisms of
01:03:53
how God did that exactly
01:03:55
>> cuz the sort of scientific consensus
01:03:57
says that it's roughly 4.5 billion years
01:04:00
old the earth.
01:04:02
>> Yeah.
01:04:03
>> And microbes and single cellled
01:04:04
organisms are estimated to have appeared
01:04:06
3.5 to 4 billion years ago almost as
01:04:09
soon as Earth. Cold enough to have
01:04:10
liquid water.
01:04:11
>> Sure. Yeah. And and I'm I'm fine with
01:04:13
that actually. I don't I don't think I
01:04:15
have to adhere to neo neodyarwinian
01:04:18
evolution in order to actually believe
01:04:20
that the world is old. I think I would
01:04:22
adhere to an intelligent design thesis.
01:04:26
But
01:04:26
>> what does that mean?
01:04:27
>> So essentially that the the world around
01:04:30
us is intelligently designed. Not
01:04:32
necessarily in that it it came through
01:04:35
processes of evolution. Once again, I'm
01:04:38
not a scientist, right? I'm a historian.
01:04:39
I I genuinely do believe that there was
01:04:42
a historical Adam and Eve and that those
01:04:44
were the first people.
01:04:45
>> Okay.
01:04:45
>> Now, what did they look like? I don't
01:04:47
know. I think they they probably lived a
01:04:49
long long time ago. And I don't know if
01:04:53
the breakdown of Genesis chapter 1 and
01:04:55
the like seven days of creation are
01:04:58
actually attempting to articulate seven
01:05:00
24-hour days. They could be.
01:05:02
>> Yeah.
01:05:02
>> I just don't think that's the point. But
01:05:04
you do believe that humans were put here
01:05:05
as humans
01:05:07
>> and you believe that the other animals
01:05:08
were put here in their in some kind of
01:05:11
early form.
01:05:11
>> Yes.
01:05:12
>> And then you also believe in adaptation
01:05:14
of those species. Fine. Okay. Fine.
01:05:15
>> And going back to like talking about
01:05:17
trying to explain these things
01:05:18
scientifically. I always find like we
01:05:22
can explore the answers scientifically,
01:05:24
but that's only going to get us so far,
01:05:25
especially when we're discussing meaning
01:05:27
and purpose questions. So, let me give
01:05:29
you uh a little bit of a story that a
01:05:32
friend of mine, Glenn Scrier, uh likes
01:05:34
to articulate in uh this parable that he
01:05:37
tells that he calls Betty the botist.
01:05:38
So, you have Betty the botist and she's
01:05:40
been uh looking at a plant sample in her
01:05:46
lab. She's been spending all weekend
01:05:47
looking at this plant sample. She's been
01:05:51
uh you know, investigating it and doing
01:05:53
all of these tests on it all weekend.
01:05:56
And Jerry, the lab assistant, comes in
01:05:58
on Monday. And
01:06:02
Betty looks at Jerry and says, "Jerry,
01:06:04
thank you for the botanic botanical
01:06:06
specimen that you left me on the
01:06:08
weekend. Thank you for this botanical
01:06:09
specimen. I've been doing all of these
01:06:11
tests. I've been looking at the
01:06:13
components of it and the complexity of
01:06:15
the biology and there are
01:06:17
pharmacological implications that I've
01:06:19
extrapolated from its various biological
01:06:22
components and we can use these to cure
01:06:24
diseases. There's so many things. Thank
01:06:26
you so much for the botanical specimen.
01:06:29
And Jerry says,
01:06:32
"Betty,
01:06:33
it was February 14th on the weekend.
01:06:37
That was a long stem rose.
01:06:40
>> Do you know what I left for you? Do you
01:06:42
know what the implication of the
01:06:45
botanical specimen, as you're calling
01:06:47
it, was for what I was trying to
01:06:49
communicate to you?" Now, did Betty the
01:06:52
Botnist understand the long stem rose?
01:06:56
In one way, she understood it more than
01:06:58
most because she had done all of the
01:07:00
tests and run through all of the
01:07:02
different ways that she could
01:07:03
extrapolate what that thing was.
01:07:07
But what Jerry was trying to actually
01:07:10
illustrate was something that went
01:07:11
beyond that. It was a love gift. He was
01:07:13
trying to communicate something that
01:07:14
went beyond the simple biology. and and
01:07:17
Betty could very simply say, "Well, I
01:07:19
couldn't get that from the data. I I
01:07:21
couldn't have extrapolated the
01:07:24
implications of it being a love gift."
01:07:26
And in that so far as it being a
01:07:29
parable, we can look at all of the
01:07:32
scientific explanations, but there's
01:07:35
something that goes beyond the simple
01:07:37
data in terms of meaning and purpose and
01:07:40
desire,
01:07:42
identity questions that go far beyond
01:07:46
that, right? Like we can look, I could
01:07:47
tell you the different chemical
01:07:49
components that make up the page and the
01:07:52
ink and like the size of the paper and
01:07:54
it transparency and all of that. I could
01:07:57
say, you know, Stephen, what is this?
01:07:59
And you could go into all of this
01:08:00
explanation about how paper is made and
01:08:02
the pulp and how we extrapolated and
01:08:04
eventually put it together and the
01:08:06
binding and and I could say, okay, yeah,
01:08:08
but this is a Bible. This is meant to
01:08:12
communicate something to you. you know,
01:08:14
what is the explanation for this? One
01:08:16
explanation could be the chemical and
01:08:18
and you know, scientific components that
01:08:21
make up the Bible. Another explanation
01:08:23
could be this is a religious text that's
01:08:25
actually trying to communicate something
01:08:26
to you. And so I think in the scientific
01:08:30
data,
01:08:31
all of that is obviously important,
01:08:34
right? Like there's this great quote by
01:08:37
C. Lewis where he says that men were
01:08:40
scientific because they expected laws in
01:08:43
nature and so they looked for the
01:08:45
legislator
01:08:47
and you look you read individuals like
01:08:48
Francis Bacon who came up with the the
01:08:50
scientific method and they're inherently
01:08:51
religious right they almost articulate
01:08:53
what they're doing in their scientific
01:08:55
endeavor as an act of worship because if
01:08:58
the exploration of the creative world
01:09:00
points to a creator then that can be an
01:09:03
act of understanding who and why we're
01:09:06
here. In terms of the scientific
01:09:08
questions, I'm very interested in them,
01:09:10
especially as a non-scientist. They
01:09:11
fascinate me. But in terms of the
01:09:13
meaning questions,
01:09:15
I think I would air on the side of
01:09:18
caution of attempting to be Betty the
01:09:20
botist and sometimes I read individuals
01:09:22
like Dawkins and I'm I'm hearing Betty
01:09:25
the Botnist extrapolate and define the
01:09:29
botanical specimen. I think part of the
01:09:31
reason why the new atheist movement that
01:09:34
I again was captured by was not
01:09:36
sufficient is because as you say it
01:09:40
didn't
01:09:42
it didn't fill some kind of gap
01:09:44
>> and and much of the gap I think for a
01:09:46
lot of people is okay so if if I believe
01:09:48
in the science and and that argument and
01:09:50
the atheist argument or I believe in the
01:09:51
Bible I still need a an answer to like
01:09:55
yeah but so what like what's the point
01:09:56
of this even in the example of evolution
01:09:59
I yeah but why am I evolving
01:10:01
Why? Why am I trying to survive?
01:10:02
>> Yeah.
01:10:03
>> A means to what end? Okay, I'm trying to
01:10:05
have more kids, but then why are my kids
01:10:06
trying to have more kids? What's the
01:10:07
point?
01:10:08
>> And you just keep hitting this wall of
01:10:09
like, okay, but what's the point? What's
01:10:10
the point? Am I meant to do something?
01:10:12
Is it is there a mission for me?
01:10:13
>> Right?
01:10:13
>> And I think that question is one that I
01:10:16
think about uh sometimes, which is
01:10:18
>> no matter what I believe, like what is
01:10:20
the point? And I think that's why the
01:10:21
Bible is such an amazing explanation for
01:10:25
that. Because in a world that tells you
01:10:31
ultimately that you're a product of time
01:10:33
plus matters chance, the Bible looks at
01:10:36
you, Stephen, and says you're created
01:10:37
with meaning and purpose and intention.
01:10:39
You bear the image of God.
01:10:42
So there's something that is actually
01:10:44
screaming from your biology
01:10:48
about who you are that goes beyond the
01:10:52
fact that you're not just a physical
01:10:54
specimen sitting in front of me. Right?
01:10:57
You have a mind and that mind is maybe
01:11:01
your brain or we're not even sure about
01:11:02
that. Right?
01:11:04
>> So what makes Steven Steven? You're not
01:11:06
not your body. And that's why I mean
01:11:09
there's this inherent conversation
01:11:11
within Christianity about the fact that
01:11:13
our hope is not a spiritual one. The end
01:11:15
result is the resurrection, right? The
01:11:17
reason why Jesus rose from the dead is
01:11:20
scripture calls him the first fruit. So
01:11:21
we're all going to be resurrected.
01:11:23
There's going to be a new heaven and a
01:11:24
new earth. And that's the promise of
01:11:27
Christianity, is it?
01:11:28
>> So, so that's the point.
01:11:29
>> Yes.
01:11:29
>> The point of this life according to the
01:11:32
Bible is that I get to go to this place
01:11:33
called heaven.
01:11:34
>> No. So it's a both and. So when g when
01:11:37
Jesus's disciples ask him how to pray,
01:11:40
he says, you know, he gives them the
01:11:42
Lord's prayer. Our father, who art in
01:11:44
heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy
01:11:45
kingdom come, thy will be done on earth
01:11:46
as it is in heaven. So it's not just
01:11:49
about, you know, I'm going to die and my
01:11:50
spirit's going to go to somewhere else.
01:11:52
And you know, that's the whole goal.
01:11:54
It's to bring heaven here as well. What
01:11:57
we do matters because you're a human
01:12:00
being. You're not a human doing. And so
01:12:03
what you do here and who you are here
01:12:07
actually has an implication
01:12:09
>> to to who and what
01:12:10
>> to everything. So we're put here to be
01:12:14
stewards of creation of each other to be
01:12:19
examples of imagebearers of God. Like
01:12:23
your life has intrinsic meaning.
01:12:26
>> Internal meaning. Yeah.
01:12:27
>> Internal meaning more than just what you
01:12:29
can contribute. Right. Right. So that
01:12:31
would be exttrinsic your ability to give
01:12:33
back to society your ability to uh
01:12:36
contribute to the advancement of
01:12:39
scientific technological you know fill
01:12:41
in the gap you have value that goes
01:12:43
beyond that right this is why we fight
01:12:45
for people everywhere
01:12:49
and that's I think why injustice
01:12:52
something like injustice bothers us so
01:12:54
much and why evil bothers us so much.
01:12:57
>> You know the chimpanzeee that has like
01:12:58
98% the same DNA as me. Yeah.
01:13:01
>> Do they have the same intrinsic meaning?
01:13:02
You know, even my dog, I'm like, does my
01:13:04
dog have that same intrinsic meaning?
01:13:07
And is my dog going to go to heaven?
01:13:09
>> I think scripture tells us what we need
01:13:10
to know, not always what we want to
01:13:12
know. There have been individuals
01:13:13
throughout church history who have
01:13:14
articulated that. I mean, St. Francis of
01:13:16
Aisi was big on animals going to heaven.
01:13:19
Uh C. Lewis was big on animals going to
01:13:22
heaven. Um, in fact, when he wrote the
01:13:24
last battle, you know, the last series
01:13:25
in his line, the witch in the wardrobe
01:13:27
books, uh, there are animals in heaven.
01:13:29
I mean, if there's a new Earth, I think
01:13:31
there are going to be animals. I don't
01:13:33
know if they're going to be the same
01:13:35
animals that existed on this side, but I
01:13:37
also I have no idea. But I think there's
01:13:40
something different because I think you
01:13:43
have a soul.
01:13:44
>> And you think my dog doesn't have a
01:13:45
soul?
01:13:46
>> I don't know. But I don't think he has
01:13:47
the same kind of
01:13:50
spiritual component that you are endowed
01:13:52
with in the same way.
01:13:54
>> How do we know? Like, how do we how do I
01:13:56
know that? You know, these chimpanzees,
01:13:58
they're pretty smart. I was watching one
01:13:59
touch a touchcreen the other day and
01:14:01
solving problems and I was thinking is
01:14:03
it is there not like an element of I
01:14:04
don't know human arrogance to think that
01:14:06
these other creatures like the big the
01:14:08
whales they're so unbelievably smart
01:14:09
they don't have a soul they work
01:14:11
together in packs they love they have
01:14:13
kids they seem to pursue things yeah I
01:14:16
mean I think that's a testimony to kind
01:14:18
of the general reflection of God's good
01:14:22
creation at the same time we describe
01:14:23
when you're just repeating something we
01:14:25
we use adjectives like aping
01:14:29
We understand that there's an aspect of
01:14:30
like if you train the monkey to push the
01:14:34
button, it's going to push the button.
01:14:36
If you give the elephant the paintbrush
01:14:39
and kind of, you know, convince it to
01:14:42
paint itself, it's going to paint
01:14:44
itself. But if you if you can train the
01:14:47
elephant to paint the Mona Lisa, is it
01:14:49
really going to understand what it's
01:14:51
painted in the same way that
01:14:52
Michelangelo understands it? Sorry, Da
01:14:55
Vinci, who painted the Mona Lisa. Now
01:14:56
I'm getting myself into trouble. Whoever
01:14:58
painted the Mona Lisa, Da Vinci, there's
01:15:01
something about the value and what is
01:15:05
being put in there that is different.
01:15:08
>> So do you believe that me and you are
01:15:10
born with a particular mission and
01:15:13
meaning on this planet or do you think
01:15:15
we have to go and find that particular
01:15:17
meaning or mission?
01:15:19
>> That's a great question. Uh I think
01:15:23
the chief end of man is to know God
01:15:29
and glorify him in so far as Jesus is
01:15:32
asked what is the greatest commandment
01:15:34
in the law. And Jesus uses two examples.
01:15:36
He quotes from you know two different
01:15:38
passages in the Old Testament and he
01:15:39
says love the Lord your God with all of
01:15:41
your heart, soul, mind and strength and
01:15:44
love your neighbor as yourself. I mean
01:15:46
ultimately I think we always want some
01:15:49
sort of a grandiose
01:15:51
purpose and we want the calling of like
01:15:54
Moses. We want to go out in the bush or
01:15:56
we want to go out in the desert and find
01:15:58
a burning bush and have that calling on
01:16:00
our lives.
01:16:02
I don't think that's wrong. But I think
01:16:06
ultimately our purpose is to live a
01:16:09
faithful life to who we were created to
01:16:12
be in being image bearsers of God and
01:16:14
being faithful in loving God with
01:16:18
everything that we have. So that like
01:16:20
the Jewish phraseiology of loving God
01:16:22
with all of our heart, soul, mind, and
01:16:24
strength. It's kind of a standin for
01:16:25
your entire being with everything you
01:16:28
have. Love God with that by what you do,
01:16:32
by what you say, by how you live. Like
01:16:35
do unto others as you would have them do
01:16:38
unto you, right? That's the golden rule.
01:16:40
But if you look at other religions, it's
01:16:42
almost always framed in the negative.
01:16:45
Don't do unto others what you don't want
01:16:47
done to you. So there's a difference
01:16:49
between not punching someone in the face
01:16:52
and building someone a hospital. So the
01:16:55
meaning of our lives is to love our
01:16:58
creator at the most fundamental level
01:17:00
>> at the basic level and to understand how
01:17:04
that expresses in everyday life. So
01:17:06
Martin Luther, the German Protestant
01:17:08
reformer, he said the the faithful
01:17:12
Christian um shoemaker
01:17:16
doesn't glorify God by sewing little
01:17:18
crosses into the shoes, but by making
01:17:20
really good quality shoes. And so
01:17:24
there's an aspect of God has endowed us,
01:17:27
right? We're created in God's image. We
01:17:30
create as an aspect of an outpouring of
01:17:34
that which we are created to be. And we
01:17:36
we do that well. You know, the proverb
01:17:39
says, "Whatever your hand um finds to
01:17:41
do, do it with all its might." And the
01:17:43
idea is, you know, you have the
01:17:46
capability to do incredible things. And
01:17:49
the reason why you have that capability
01:17:51
is because you bear the image of a
01:17:53
creator who like I said before lives in
01:17:56
a set of living loving relationships.
01:17:59
And so that God actually didn't need to
01:18:02
create you me anything. Right? So God is
01:18:06
not better off or worse off if we love
01:18:08
him or worship him or believe in him. He
01:18:10
he really isn't. He has existed in a in
01:18:14
love in relationship.
01:18:17
And yet the story of the Bible is that
01:18:19
God chooses to create out of an
01:18:21
outpouring of his love knowing even that
01:18:25
we are going to rebel against him. We
01:18:27
are going to sin right do wrong against
01:18:30
how he has actually created us to be and
01:18:33
still desires to have that relationship.
01:18:35
>> And if we do sin
01:18:37
>> Mhm.
01:18:38
>> if I sin in my life do I go to hell? You
01:18:42
you don't
01:18:44
I mean the answer to that is yes and no.
01:18:47
But the
01:18:48
>> am I going to hell?
01:18:49
>> Are you going to hell? Steven Bartlett.
01:18:51
Is Steven Bartlett going to hell? This
01:18:52
is the clip that they're going to put
01:18:53
online, right? Wes says Stephen Bartlett
01:18:55
is going to hell. I mean, here's the
01:18:57
thing. Everybody is going to hell.
01:18:59
Everybody. Here's how I've said it in
01:19:01
the past, right? The Bible is very
01:19:03
clear. All good people go to heaven. But
01:19:06
Jesus said, "No one is good but God
01:19:08
alone." So if all good people go to
01:19:10
heaven
01:19:12
and no one is good but God alone, only
01:19:14
God is in heaven.
01:19:16
>> So do you believe that there is a a hell
01:19:18
and a heaven as we sort of typically
01:19:20
understand it? A place that is great to
01:19:23
go to after we die and a place that is
01:19:25
very hot.
01:19:27
>> Place that is very hot. I mean there's a
01:19:29
lot of imagery of um like fire and
01:19:31
weeping and nashing of teeth. I think a
01:19:33
lot of that uh is kind of reflective and
01:19:36
allegorical more than it's like a a
01:19:38
physical tangible thing that is you know
01:19:41
most of our perceptions of hell are
01:19:43
largely shaped by depictions in the
01:19:46
Middle Ages of Dante's Inferno and that
01:19:48
kind of thing right I think it's more so
01:19:51
that
01:19:54
you will experience the full weight of
01:19:57
the separation from God's goodness not
01:20:00
necessarily a separation from God
01:20:01
because I
01:20:02
God's punishment and his wrath are going
01:20:05
to be felt there. But if we're talking
01:20:07
about like a good place, bad place
01:20:11
in the very simplest of terms, yes, but
01:20:14
heaven isn't full of good people. Heaven
01:20:17
is full of people who understand they
01:20:19
are not good enough. And so I mentioned
01:20:21
that like justice mercy thing. Justice
01:20:24
is fulfilled on Jesus. So because
01:20:26
justice is fulfilled now,
01:20:29
mercy, which is not getting what we do
01:20:31
deserve, is able to be given to those
01:20:33
who put their trust in Jesus.
01:20:36
>> So if I don't believe in Jesus and I
01:20:38
don't believe in the Bible,
01:20:40
>> but I live a
01:20:42
>> good life, I'm nice to people,
01:20:44
charitable, try and be kind wherever I
01:20:46
can be.
01:20:47
>> Yeah.
01:20:47
>> And I don't believe in God, am I going
01:20:49
to hell or heaven as it relates to the
01:20:52
scriptures? Well, I don't think if
01:20:54
you're living your life rejecting God,
01:20:57
God is not going to force you into his
01:20:59
presence.
01:21:00
>> So, I'm not going to go into he I'm not
01:21:02
going to go to heaven then.
01:21:03
>> No.
01:21:04
>> Where am I going to go?
01:21:05
>> Well, you would you would go hell.
01:21:07
>> So So if I don't believe in the Bible
01:21:10
and Jesus and God, then I'm going to go
01:21:12
to hell.
01:21:13
>> Yes. In so far as if
01:21:16
heaven is a place for those who have
01:21:18
submitted their lives to Jesus, who are
01:21:21
living the identity of what they're
01:21:22
created to be and said, "Your will be
01:21:25
done, God."
01:21:26
>> Yeah.
01:21:26
>> Hell is a place where God says, "You
01:21:29
rejected me. Your will be done. I'm
01:21:32
going to I'm going to give you what you
01:21:34
want in that I'm going to remove my
01:21:37
grace and mercy from you and you are
01:21:39
going to experience truly what you
01:21:41
desire in being separated from me and my
01:21:46
goodness and my grace.
01:21:47
>> And what is that place like according to
01:21:49
the scripture? Give me a give me a
01:21:52
depiction in my mind of what hell might
01:21:53
be like for me.
01:21:54
>> Yeah. I mean, it's not a good place.
01:21:55
It's not a nice place. is a place that
01:21:58
no matter what's going on,
01:22:00
if you are a believer, if you if you
01:22:03
truly understand what this book is
01:22:05
saying, seriously, I think it should
01:22:08
motivate you to want to desire. Steven
01:22:12
Bartlett, I desire you to have a
01:22:15
personal relationship with your creator
01:22:17
because I don't want you to experience
01:22:22
whatever hell is. I I I desire for you
01:22:26
to be in perfect
01:22:29
relationship with your God. Not
01:22:31
necessarily because I want you to get a
01:22:33
get out of hell free card, but because I
01:22:35
actually think that in living how God
01:22:39
created you to be in accepting living
01:22:42
out the image that you bear, you're
01:22:45
going to find the meaning and purpose
01:22:48
that you ultimately have expressed that
01:22:50
you have this innate desire for. I think
01:22:54
it's about I think it's according to
01:22:56
Gallup it's 18% of Americans don't
01:22:58
believe in a god
01:23:01
>> now to get into heaven
01:23:04
>> as it's described in the Bible do I just
01:23:07
need to say I believe in God or do I
01:23:09
have to have some sort of active
01:23:10
commitment and evidence in my life that
01:23:12
I am living my life in line with God's
01:23:16
you know teachings
01:23:17
>> I think ultimately salvation right
01:23:20
salvation implies you're being saved
01:23:21
from something
01:23:22
>> right the good news is good news because
01:23:24
the bad news is bad.
01:23:26
>> And the bad news is very bad. I was
01:23:27
looking at what the Bible says about
01:23:28
hell and in um Revelations it says it's
01:23:30
a lake of fire. In Mark it says it's
01:23:32
unquenchable fire.
01:23:33
>> In Matthew it says eternal fire prepared
01:23:36
for the devil and his angels.
01:23:38
>> Yeah.
01:23:39
>> Uh in Matthew again it says outer
01:23:41
darkness where there will be weeping and
01:23:43
nashing of teeth.
01:23:45
>> Yes.
01:23:45
>> They will be shut out from the presence
01:23:47
of the Lord. Weeping and nashing of
01:23:49
teeth and torment. Eternal punishment.
01:23:51
and the smoke of their torment rises
01:23:53
forever. This is not a place I want to
01:23:55
go.
01:23:55
>> No. No. And I think I think the urgency
01:23:58
of the Christian message is the bad news
01:24:00
is really bad. And that's what makes the
01:24:03
good news so good. Jesus
01:24:06
has taken on that hell on your behalf.
01:24:11
And it goes beyond simply a believing,
01:24:14
right? It's not just about saying the
01:24:16
right words. It's not just a an
01:24:19
incantation.
01:24:22
You are not saved by what you do, right?
01:24:25
You're saved by works. It's just
01:24:27
Jesus's. Jesus lived the life you
01:24:30
couldn't and made the sacrifice you
01:24:32
can't
01:24:34
on your behalf in order to establish
01:24:37
that right relationship with God. So
01:24:40
that's where grace comes into the
01:24:42
picture. Justice is getting what you do
01:24:44
deserve. Mercy is not getting what you
01:24:47
do deserve. Grace is getting what you
01:24:49
don't deserve.
01:24:50
So
01:24:52
in so far as Christ on the cross
01:24:55
fulfills the justice of his holy law,
01:24:58
mercy is enacted and you don't get that
01:25:01
punishment by putting your faith and
01:25:03
trust in Jesus as your lord and your
01:25:06
savior as your creator. You don't get
01:25:08
that punishment and now you get grace
01:25:12
which is not what you're owed but you
01:25:15
are adopted as a child of the most high.
01:25:18
So of the 18% of people that say they
01:25:23
don't believe in a god, they are almost
01:25:25
certainly going tell according to
01:25:27
scripture.
01:25:28
>> Well, so James, the book of James in the
01:25:30
Bible, who's actually the um the uh
01:25:34
halfb brotherther of Jesus um he writes
01:25:36
a book and he says, "You believe that
01:25:38
God is one." He says, "Great. So do the
01:25:41
demons."
01:25:43
So the point is like if anybody knows
01:25:46
and believes in God, it's the demons.
01:25:49
It's Satan, right? So, so what's the
01:25:51
difference there?
01:25:52
>> The difference is there is that there's
01:25:55
a relational component of when we in in
01:25:58
sort of the Christianes Christian
01:26:00
terminology when I say Jesus is your
01:26:03
Lord and your Savior, what I mean is
01:26:04
that he has rescued you. He has saved
01:26:06
you from the penalties of sin and death.
01:26:09
But then the Lord component is that now
01:26:11
you have submitted your life to him in
01:26:14
obedience and repentance. Now repentance
01:26:17
is kind of another religious word that
01:26:19
maybe is not always fully understood.
01:26:21
Repentance is the changing and
01:26:24
understanding of the way you live. You
01:26:26
understand that the things that you used
01:26:29
to do
01:26:31
that are wrong are not the things that
01:26:35
are either what you should do or are
01:26:37
going to give you fulfillment.
01:26:39
And you stop doing those not because God
01:26:42
is a cosmic killjoy and he doesn't want
01:26:44
you to feel the goodness of those things
01:26:48
but because those things are actually
01:26:49
harmful to you. They are hurting you and
01:26:53
they are creating a separation of the
01:26:56
relationship between you and God.
01:26:58
>> There's going to be a very small number
01:26:59
of people that actually live in such a
01:27:01
way that are fully repented and have
01:27:03
accepted the Lord as their savior.
01:27:04
Right? there's only rough I think it was
01:27:06
30% of people actually go to church
01:27:09
somewhat frequently and uh
01:27:11
>> the other sort of 56% seldom will never
01:27:14
go that they're not really really active
01:27:15
in their belief. They probably haven't
01:27:17
repented. So it would appear to me that
01:27:20
a very small percentage of people are
01:27:21
actually qualifying for the kingdom of
01:27:23
heaven as it's described in the Bible.
01:27:25
>> The miracle of this is that your
01:27:28
salvation is received not achieved. And
01:27:31
so once again, it's it's not about like
01:27:34
brownie points. It's not about checking
01:27:36
off, you know, I read the Bible as many
01:27:38
times. I went to church as many times. I
01:27:39
you know, I didn't lie. I didn't steal.
01:27:41
I didn't cheat. I didn't um because we
01:27:44
still exist in this beautiful yet broken
01:27:46
world. And because we live in a world
01:27:48
that is marred by the brokenness of the
01:27:51
fall
01:27:53
of our first parents, Adam and Eve,
01:27:55
making that decision to rebel against
01:27:56
God. And because of that, now the the
01:27:59
creation itself has been affected.
01:28:02
It's not about trying to earn my way
01:28:05
into heaven. So is it a very small
01:28:08
percentage of people who are actually
01:28:09
repenting? Maybe. But what of those what
01:28:14
of that percentage is attempt who fully
01:28:18
understands? It's interesting the word
01:28:20
that we translate as repentance is the
01:28:22
Greek word metaninoia. It means change
01:28:24
your mind. And so there's an aspect of
01:28:26
it's not just about the doing.
01:28:29
It's an understanding. It's a component
01:28:31
of I don't want to do these things. Even
01:28:34
when I do them, I I don't I don't want
01:28:38
to lie anymore. Like I see the harm that
01:28:40
that causes and the brokenness that it
01:28:42
creates. And so even if I'm still
01:28:46
breaking the law of God, right? So, in
01:28:49
the book of James that I mentioned, uh
01:28:51
there's this part where James says if
01:28:52
you break one
01:28:54
rule in the law, you it's as if you've
01:28:56
broken them all. And I've sometimes used
01:28:58
this illustration of it's like you're
01:29:00
hanging off a cliff uh on a linked
01:29:02
chain, right? If you cut any of those
01:29:05
links, you're going to fall, right? It's
01:29:08
no longer holding you. That's kind of
01:29:10
the the thinking that I think James is
01:29:12
getting at when he writes that. So you
01:29:15
reference the original sin which is Adam
01:29:16
and Eve taking the apple
01:29:18
>> or fruit
01:29:19
>> or the fruit whatever it might be. God
01:29:20
made Adam and Eve. He's omnipotent
01:29:22
omniscient. When he made them he knew
01:29:23
they were going to take the apple.
01:29:24
>> Mhm.
01:29:25
>> But he made them anyway.
01:29:26
>> Mhm.
01:29:27
>> So that sounds like a setup.
01:29:29
>> I you could read it as a setup. I think
01:29:31
more so what's going on I think what
01:29:33
what's what's the what strikes me as
01:29:35
more amazing is that God did it anyways
01:29:37
and he didn't hit the restart button
01:29:40
>> and then he knew that when he made them
01:29:42
that it would result in this thousands
01:29:44
and thousands of year years of people
01:29:46
worshiping him
01:29:47
>> Mhm. I think you'd think I was a bad
01:29:49
person like if I made something knowing
01:29:51
that it was going to make a mistake and
01:29:52
that mistake would result in people
01:29:54
worshiping me for the next forever.
01:29:56
>> Sure.
01:29:56
>> You you would say I did this to get you
01:29:59
to worship me. Sure.
01:30:00
>> And to basically make you live in guilt
01:30:04
>> that I appropate like logically that's
01:30:06
like hold no. Like what's wrong with
01:30:08
that logically?
01:30:09
>> Well, I think I think you could read it
01:30:11
like that. Uh I think ultimately and
01:30:14
this might sound like a copout to some,
01:30:15
but maybe God knows something we don't.
01:30:17
>> Yeah, maybe. Yeah.
01:30:18
>> And uh that he has reasons for allowing
01:30:21
evil that maybe we don't understand and
01:30:23
can't comprehend because he is God.
01:30:25
There's an interesting thing in both the
01:30:27
book of revelation and in one of the
01:30:29
letters of Peter where it basically says
01:30:31
from uh before the foundation of the
01:30:33
world was laid the lamb was slain. So
01:30:36
Jesus
01:30:38
was crucified that the cross that whole
01:30:42
bringing back people in unity and
01:30:44
relationship with God via this act of
01:30:48
the only innocent person who ever lived
01:30:50
being murdered on a cross. Right? great
01:30:51
act of evil accomplishing a lot of good.
01:30:54
Once again, not the way I would do it if
01:30:57
I was God, right? There's all sorts of
01:30:58
things that we think, you know, if I was
01:31:01
God, I'd do it like this. Um, thank
01:31:03
goodness I'm not God. Uh, I would get a
01:31:04
whole lot of things wrong. You wouldn't
01:31:06
want to live in that world. But I think
01:31:08
what's interesting is that the cross was
01:31:10
not a contingency plan. The cross was
01:31:13
the plan all the way along. And so God
01:31:16
is glorified in that act. And I think
01:31:19
part of it is what I was saying before.
01:31:21
If God is love, if love is the greatest
01:31:24
ethic, and the greatest ethic is
01:31:26
expressed in
01:31:29
the greatest example, which is
01:31:31
self-sacrifice, then God is actually
01:31:33
communicating the greatest ethic in the
01:31:35
greatest possible way in what we see in
01:31:38
the gospel message of how he
01:31:41
accomplishes
01:31:42
the unification with his people for the
01:31:46
goodness and glory of who he is. And do
01:31:49
I understand all the complexities and
01:31:51
mysteries that go in conjunction with
01:31:54
that? No. But I'm convinced beyond a
01:31:57
reasonable doubt that the historical and
01:32:00
the philosophical case for the existence
01:32:04
of God and then that God specifically
01:32:06
being the God that is articulated in the
01:32:07
Bible is true. And on that basis,
01:32:12
I am willing to submit my life because
01:32:17
of both the evidence and because I've
01:32:19
actually seen my own life change
01:32:21
radically. So you're you're a friend,
01:32:23
right? You say like you've seen an
01:32:26
actual
01:32:28
experiential change in that person's
01:32:30
life.
01:32:30
>> Oh, yeah. No, my so my friend um I
01:32:32
talked about him anonymously on here,
01:32:34
but he then clipped it, posted on his
01:32:37
Instagram and said Stephen's talking
01:32:38
about me. Okay.
01:32:39
>> And he's he's like doing some interviews
01:32:41
and stuff now. So I feel more
01:32:42
comfortable talking about him more
01:32:43
publicly. But yeah, my friend who was
01:32:45
going through a little bit of a crisis
01:32:46
of meaning in his life was living in
01:32:47
Dubai in this penthouse apartment,
01:32:49
single, kind of alone, remote working,
01:32:52
>> all those kinds of, you know, very
01:32:53
individualistic lifestyle, successful in
01:32:56
a material sense,
01:32:57
>> all of a sudden turned to Christianity,
01:33:00
flew to America, got baptized, and is
01:33:01
now
01:33:02
>> Christian.
01:33:03
>> Yeah.
01:33:04
>> And would I say he is happier than
01:33:06
before? 100%. Would I say I am very glad
01:33:10
he became Christian? 100%. Would I say
01:33:13
that I believe his future's going to be
01:33:15
better because he's now a Christian?
01:33:16
100%. That's a lot of 100%.
01:33:18
>> No, but it's true. It's objectively
01:33:19
true. Like I even spoke to we've been
01:33:21
friends for decades and all of us feel
01:33:23
the same way. We don't even have to
01:33:25
agree with what he believes to think
01:33:26
actually he's it's helped him. Well, and
01:33:28
in that I don't think that I think
01:33:30
there's an objectivity to the actual
01:33:32
evidence that I evaluate in terms of the
01:33:35
historical reliability of the Bible and
01:33:38
the philosophical explanations for
01:33:40
meaning and purpose and morality, how we
01:33:42
ground those, the scientific data of a
01:33:45
universe that looks like it's fine-tuned
01:33:48
and has intelligence designed into it.
01:33:52
But the subjectivity of how I understand
01:33:55
my life and have seen it change
01:33:57
radically and what what you see in your
01:34:00
friend is not inconsequential.
01:34:02
>> No, it's not.
01:34:03
>> And it it it testifies to something. It
01:34:06
testifies to a hope that even in
01:34:10
scripture in 1 Peter 3,
01:34:13
Peter writing to the dispersed church in
01:34:15
the ancient world has this in the
01:34:18
context of persecution says, "But in
01:34:20
your hearts rever Christ as Lord. Always
01:34:22
be prepared to give an answer to
01:34:23
everyone who asks you to give a reason
01:34:25
for the hope that you have. But do so
01:34:26
with gentleness and respect, keeping a
01:34:28
clear conscience so that those who speak
01:34:30
maliciously against your good behavior
01:34:31
in Christ will be ashamed of their
01:34:32
slander." And there's this implication
01:34:35
that always be prepared to give an
01:34:37
answer to everyone who asks you for an
01:34:39
argument for the existence of God. No,
01:34:41
that's not what he says. He says to give
01:34:43
the reason for the hope that you have.
01:34:45
Your friend is communicating a hope that
01:34:48
you took notice of. And I think that is
01:34:53
literally the word to give an answer
01:34:55
that we translate as to give an answer,
01:34:56
defense, or reason in many English Bible
01:34:58
translations is the Greek word apologia.
01:35:01
to give an apologetic to give a defense
01:35:04
and scripturally
01:35:06
scripture does call us to love the Lord
01:35:09
our God with all of our mind and I think
01:35:11
there's an aspect of God if I my friend
01:35:13
Tim Barnett works for actually stand to
01:35:15
reason which is Greg Kokal's
01:35:16
organization you had Greg Greg in in in
01:35:19
your uh panel discussion recently my
01:35:21
friend Tim says if you want to know the
01:35:22
mind of God you better start by using
01:35:24
your own and so in that way I think we
01:35:27
can worship God through that you know
01:35:29
there's a component of God has endowed
01:35:32
us with intelligence and we can use that
01:35:34
to speak to the things that he has
01:35:36
actually
01:35:38
created and the evidence for that. But
01:35:42
at the exact same time the hope of the
01:35:45
life changed of to use you know Jesus's
01:35:50
own language in John 3 being born again
01:35:54
I think also communicates something that
01:35:56
is genuinely profound. I
01:35:59
agree and I
01:36:02
I would assert that maybe if he had
01:36:04
converted to pretty much any of the
01:36:06
major religions, he would have
01:36:07
experienced the same transformative
01:36:09
upside.
01:36:10
>> And when you look at people that do
01:36:11
convert to other religions outside of
01:36:13
Christianity, they do experience a
01:36:15
greater sense of meaning and community
01:36:17
and all the things that come with it
01:36:19
that gives them that sense of belonging
01:36:21
and maybe calms their anxieties and
01:36:22
their worries and their nihilism to a
01:36:24
point where they can live a bit more of
01:36:25
a content life. So is it is that
01:36:27
evidence of Christianity or is that just
01:36:29
evidence that we're all in search of
01:36:30
meaning in a world that's increasingly
01:36:32
nihilistic and individualistic and says
01:36:33
that there's nothing other than as you
01:36:35
say like time space matter etc.
01:36:37
>> No that's a great point. I don't think
01:36:39
it's arbitrary. I think you know there's
01:36:42
an aspect of religiosity that is always
01:36:44
going to be a net positive for society
01:36:46
no matter what that religion is because
01:36:47
I think it's going to give an aspect of
01:36:50
purpose and identity to people. At the
01:36:52
exact same time, I don't think it's just
01:36:55
the subjective point of view. Right?
01:36:58
This is why I think it's very dangerous
01:37:00
when I go out. So, I used to work for a
01:37:04
a minister organization that worked on
01:37:05
university campuses and we would go and
01:37:08
we would talk with students and uh I too
01:37:12
many times to count would hear a student
01:37:13
ask another student, why do you believe
01:37:16
in Christianity? And they would then
01:37:18
proceed in articulating how they became
01:37:20
a Christian. Mhm.
01:37:21
>> Well, that's not the answer, right?
01:37:23
That's not the actually the question
01:37:24
they asked. They asked, "Why do you
01:37:26
believe it's true and you answered with
01:37:29
how you kind of got into this group if
01:37:33
they had ran into a Buddhist, they said,
01:37:35
why do you believe Buddhism is true?"
01:37:37
and you say, you know, well, I just met
01:37:38
these really great people on campus and
01:37:40
they invited me over for, you know,
01:37:41
karma discussions and pizza and and it's
01:37:44
radically changed my life and I, you
01:37:45
know, follow the noble truths and the
01:37:48
the the path of the Buddha and it it's
01:37:50
changed my life.
01:37:52
When you give them that story, now I
01:37:54
don't I don't want people to hear me
01:37:56
saying that giving your testimony is not
01:37:59
a good thing to do. I just think there's
01:38:01
a time and a place where it could have
01:38:04
been any situation. It sounds
01:38:06
convenient. You could have run into a
01:38:08
Muslim or a Mormon or a Buddhist or a
01:38:11
Hindu and just stumbled into those
01:38:14
conversations. And that's where I think
01:38:17
answering why I believe it's true
01:38:21
is more than just that. It's no less
01:38:24
than that, but it's more than that
01:38:28
because I believe that the multivalent
01:38:29
argument for the truthfulness with the
01:38:31
capital T of Christianity has a
01:38:35
historical backing and a philosophical
01:38:37
backing and scientific backing and
01:38:38
psychological backing and all of those
01:38:40
things. And I bet your friend would say
01:38:41
it too.
01:38:42
>> Oh yeah,
01:38:42
>> I bet he would.
01:38:43
>> Yeah.
01:38:43
>> And in one sense, my goal is to adhere
01:38:47
to truth with a capital T even above my
01:38:50
allegiance to Jesus. Now, I believe
01:38:52
Jesus is the truth with a capital T. So,
01:38:54
I I don't think that there's a conflict
01:38:56
of interest there. But I I want to
01:39:00
follow what's true because even if it's
01:39:04
a convenient lie, it's still a lie and I
01:39:06
don't want to live my life for a lie.
01:39:09
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01:39:17
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01:39:21
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>> And on that point, one of the things
01:41:20
that really convinced me when I was a uh
01:41:22
when I was going through my little
01:41:23
atheism phase was this this geography
01:41:25
argument, which I'm sure you've heard a
01:41:26
million times. If I'd been born in Saudi
01:41:28
Arabia, I'd probably be a Muslim. If I'd
01:41:30
been born in is India, I'd probably be
01:41:32
Hindu. So it seems like the religion you
01:41:34
believe entirely depends on where you
01:41:36
were born,
01:41:37
>> not on necessarily what is true. And
01:41:39
therefore, if we go back to this point
01:41:41
about hell, I remember thinking at like
01:41:43
19 years old, oh my god, like actually
01:41:45
where you're born is determining whether
01:41:46
you go to this fiery eternal suffering
01:41:49
or not. And that's not fair. So this
01:41:50
must all be not true.
01:41:53
>> Yeah. I mean, I was born in Pakistan. So
01:41:55
I was born in a majority Muslim country
01:41:57
and I'm not a Muslim. Now, you could
01:41:59
argue my parents weren't Muslims, but I
01:42:01
know tons of people who were. My
01:42:03
colleague Steve, who is our Alberta
01:42:05
director at Apologetics Canada. He was
01:42:07
born in Korea and went to a school
01:42:11
setting that was Buddhist.
01:42:12
>> But, but I mean, the numbers are the
01:42:13
numbers like you're like 95% I don't
01:42:15
know what the numbers are, but I know
01:42:16
it's over 90% likely to be the religion
01:42:19
of that territory if you take a on a
01:42:20
religion at all
01:42:22
>> just by where you were born. And that
01:42:23
doesn't fit. I remember thinking very
01:42:24
clearly at 19 years old, this doesn't
01:42:25
feel fair.
01:42:26
>> Sure. as a way to determine who gets
01:42:28
into hell or heaven, which is like my
01:42:29
parents and where they they conceived me
01:42:31
or whatever.
01:42:32
>> Sure. I mean, in one sense, you don't
01:42:33
want fair because fair is you going to
01:42:35
hell. Um, and the gospel message is not
01:42:38
fair, right? So, so the actual gospel
01:42:40
message is not about fairness
01:42:43
because fairness is
01:42:46
I get the just penalty for what I do.
01:42:49
Right? And that's where the whole
01:42:51
concept of mercy and grace are so
01:42:54
they're so central to the Christian
01:42:56
message is Buddhism and Hinduism are
01:43:00
based on fairness
01:43:02
solely based on fairness right the cycle
01:43:04
of samsara of life death birth and
01:43:06
rebirth the karmic cycles that's fair uh
01:43:10
in one sense what god does when he
01:43:13
intervenes in humanity when he
01:43:15
incarnates becomes flesh steps into
01:43:18
humanity and actually experiences pain
01:43:21
and hurt and suffering and death in a
01:43:23
way that makes the God of the Bible
01:43:25
unique and actually experiential to what
01:43:27
you and I go through when we have those
01:43:29
struggles and doubts. He then
01:43:33
takes on the punishment that we deserve.
01:43:37
And the fairness is not actually what is
01:43:42
then given because the fairness is
01:43:47
Wes Huff
01:43:48
getting what he actually deserves for
01:43:51
the weight and the penalty of his cosmic
01:43:53
rebellion
01:43:55
in choosing a life that is is against
01:43:58
and away from God. I'm unclear.
01:44:01
>> Okay.
01:44:01
>> So, if I was if I had Moroccan parents,
01:44:03
my probability of being Muslim is like
01:44:05
99%.
01:44:06
>> Sure.
01:44:06
>> Um, and if I was born in Morocco, that
01:44:08
would that would kind of set me up to go
01:44:10
to hell theoretically.
01:44:11
>> Yes. In so far as you're either you're
01:44:15
taking on your sin.
01:44:17
>> Yeah.
01:44:17
>> And that's the punishment. Or Christ is
01:44:20
taking on your sin and then you are then
01:44:26
covered in his intercession.
01:44:29
>> Okay. But it's not about believing or
01:44:31
not believing.
01:44:32
>> Yeah. Which you explained earlier. Yeah.
01:44:34
Which was which was useful for me
01:44:35
because that that that gave me a new
01:44:36
understanding that I didn't have
01:44:38
previously.
01:44:39
>> Um the other thing I think a lot about
01:44:40
or I thought a lot about was prayer. So
01:44:42
this was really compelling to me when I
01:44:43
was younger, which was, you know, I
01:44:45
would I would hear these stories of
01:44:47
horrific things that had happened in the
01:44:48
world. If you think about what happened
01:44:49
in Nazi Germany and I'd hear that the
01:44:51
people there were, you know, very
01:44:52
religious and praying and it didn't seem
01:44:54
to change the odds of their fate. And
01:44:56
when you look at hospital stats of
01:44:58
Christians versus non-Christians,
01:44:59
generally praying doesn't seem to be
01:45:02
impacting outcome.
01:45:04
>> So therefore, I concluded as like a
01:45:05
19-year-old that maybe prayer doesn't
01:45:07
work and why are people doing it when it
01:45:10
doesn't seem to historically have
01:45:12
worked? What is the what is your
01:45:15
perspective? Does praying work? If if my
01:45:16
child is sick and I start praying, is is
01:45:18
that going to help?
01:45:20
>> I mean, it also kind of begs the
01:45:22
question of what we think prayer is.
01:45:25
Is prayer
01:45:27
incantations
01:45:29
to plate God?
01:45:30
>> What does that mean?
01:45:31
>> Like is God a genie? Right. So I say the
01:45:34
right prayers and uh he gives me what
01:45:36
what I want.
01:45:37
>> Yeah.
01:45:37
>> Um now there are some religious systems
01:45:40
that that is kind of what prayer is is
01:45:42
is you know that's all the agricultural
01:45:44
deities of the ancient near east. like
01:45:46
you you say the right things and you
01:45:48
give the right sacrifices and the the
01:45:50
the hope is that you know the gods would
01:45:53
accept that and then they then you know
01:45:56
in the reciprocal nature of that they
01:45:58
give you good crops. I think prayer in
01:46:01
Christianity is a give and take in that
01:46:03
it's a relational thing. It's God
01:46:05
desiring
01:46:07
to have communication with you. If you
01:46:10
read the psalms, a lot of which are
01:46:12
prayers, uh even, you know, I mentioned
01:46:14
the lament psalms, like it's David or
01:46:16
whoever the psalmist coming to God and
01:46:19
saying, "I don't get it. I'm hurting.
01:46:21
I'm broken. I'm alone. I don't feel
01:46:23
you." There's an aspect of the
01:46:26
relational component of prayer. Now,
01:46:28
prayer is not just that, right? prayer
01:46:31
is, you know, asking is is supplications
01:46:34
is is
01:46:37
committing your desires to God because
01:46:39
you believe that God can actually work
01:46:41
in the universe and do things.
01:46:42
>> And that's kind of what the Bible the
01:46:43
Bible says. It says, "Pour out your
01:46:45
hearts to him. Call him and and call to
01:46:47
me and I will answer you in in
01:46:48
Jeremiah."
01:46:49
>> Mhm.
01:46:50
>> And it also says, "Ask and it will be
01:46:52
given to you in Matthew."
01:46:54
>> Yeah. Seek and you will find. Knock and
01:46:56
the door will be opened unto you. I
01:46:57
mean, part of those is that the the
01:46:59
there's a little bit of a trickiness in
01:47:00
quote mining because the context could
01:47:03
mean prayer. The context could mean, you
01:47:05
know, the the salvific act of God, you
01:47:08
know, uh knock and the door shall be
01:47:10
opened unto you. Like if if you're
01:47:11
actually seeking God and you're doing
01:47:14
that with an open heart and an open
01:47:16
mind, God is going to say, you know,
01:47:18
yes, I'm I'm entering into your life.
01:47:20
I'm doing I'm revealing myself to you.
01:47:23
Now, God can answer yes. God can answer
01:47:25
no. And God can answer weight. Those are
01:47:28
all answers to prayer.
01:47:29
>> Do you think God answers prayers?
01:47:31
>> Yes.
01:47:32
>> And is there a certain type of prayer he
01:47:34
might answer? You know, cuz if I lose my
01:47:36
keys, oh, please, you know, help me find
01:47:37
my keys.
01:47:39
>> I assume he might not answer that one.
01:47:40
But is there a certain type of prayer
01:47:42
you think God answers?
01:47:44
>> I don't think it's I don't think it's a
01:47:45
magical formula.
01:47:46
>> Okay. I I think you know the thing that
01:47:49
we see within Christianity is that is
01:47:52
that prayer is
01:47:55
the a relational aspect like there are
01:47:58
so when when the disciples I mentioned
01:47:59
earlier they asked Jesus how should we
01:48:01
pray and he gives the Lord's prayer in
01:48:03
some ways that's less of a prescription
01:48:07
you know say these words in the right
01:48:08
way because even Jesus says you know
01:48:11
don't babble like the pagans do
01:48:13
>> um but there's an aspect of our father
01:48:16
who art in heaven like a recognition of
01:48:18
who God is. Holy be your name, right?
01:48:22
Your kingdom come. Your will be done on
01:48:24
earth as it is in heaven. Give us this
01:48:26
day our daily bread. Right? There's a,
01:48:28
you know, give us the provision that we
01:48:31
need. Give us this day our daily bread.
01:48:34
And forgive us our our trespasses, our
01:48:36
sins as we forgive those who sin against
01:48:39
us. That's an interesting one because
01:48:41
we're asking God to forgive us like we
01:48:43
forgive others, which can be dangerous
01:48:44
sometimes, right? Maybe I don't want to
01:48:46
pray that all the time. For yours is the
01:48:48
kingdom, the power, and the glory
01:48:50
forever and ever. Amen. So, in some
01:48:53
ways, is that God telling us is that
01:48:55
Jesus telling us how to pray exactly? I
01:48:58
don't think that's not a part of it. But
01:48:59
I also think that, you know, there's an
01:49:00
aspect of it. Recognize who God is.
01:49:03
Recognize who you are. Uh, you know, do
01:49:06
ask for provision. Do ask for things
01:49:09
that you need and you even that you
01:49:11
want. And you know recognize that we
01:49:15
want this reality as earth on earth as
01:49:18
it is in heaven. You know, there's
01:49:20
components of what Jesus is saying in
01:49:22
that go beyond simply like a wrote
01:49:25
prayer in some kind of incantation or
01:49:29
you know list of you say the the right
01:49:32
things in the right way and you know
01:49:33
then God is going to you know that
01:49:35
that's what ancient Greco Roman paganism
01:49:37
was like and prayer even if you aren't
01:49:40
religious has a basis in neuroscience
01:49:44
that says it's really good for our
01:49:45
well-being. Neuroscience research shows
01:49:46
that prayer activates brain networks for
01:49:48
attention, emotional regulation, and
01:49:49
social connection while reducing stress.
01:49:51
And when they do brain ECG scans, they
01:49:53
find people are more calm and focused
01:49:55
when they're in states of prayer, and
01:49:57
they have greater resilience over time,
01:50:00
which is, I mean, reason enough to have
01:50:03
some form of active prayer.
01:50:05
>> Regardless of that, I I'm really
01:50:07
interested in how you think about
01:50:09
everything that's going on with
01:50:10
technology at the moment.
01:50:11
>> We're living in a very interesting time.
01:50:12
It's kind of like we're trying to summon
01:50:13
the gods ourself. We're we're creating
01:50:16
this form of intelligence that, you
01:50:19
know, people are developing a
01:50:20
relationship with and are speaking to
01:50:22
every day and we've made it on silicon
01:50:24
chips and using these things called GPUs
01:50:26
and it's called artificial intelligence.
01:50:29
Are you concerned
01:50:30
>> by the direction of travel in this
01:50:32
direction
01:50:33
>> that we're now seeking guidance and
01:50:35
comfort and all of these things from AI
01:50:39
instead of this book in front of us? Hm.
01:50:42
I think there's aspects where I have
01:50:45
concerns. I mean, my my colleagues um
01:50:48
Andy Stiger and Steve Kim uh are are
01:50:52
more invested in these questions, I
01:50:54
think, than I am. My my uh colleague
01:50:57
Andy, he did his PhD at Aberdine in the
01:51:00
question of philosophical anthropology.
01:51:02
What does it mean to be human? And he he
01:51:05
investigated a lot into the questions of
01:51:07
things like AI. and my colleague Steve
01:51:09
is kind of looking into things that
01:51:12
relate to transhumanism. So, I mean,
01:51:14
these are these are relevant questions
01:51:16
to who we are. I'm not convinced that
01:51:19
the intelligence part of AI outweighs
01:51:22
the artificial. I don't see AI thinking.
01:51:27
I see there being an aspect of the
01:51:30
coding that AI will regurgitate, but I
01:51:36
don't I'm not convinced that AI will
01:51:37
ever say become conscious. I think it
01:51:39
will fake the touring test in that it
01:51:42
will kind of attempt to convince us that
01:51:45
it is cogn cognizant of its own
01:51:47
existence, but I I don't I don't know if
01:51:50
that's actually possible. And I think
01:51:53
there's something about the innateness
01:51:54
of of consciousness
01:51:59
that we don't really know, right? We
01:52:02
don't really know what consciousness is.
01:52:04
There's all sorts of weird explanations
01:52:07
of why like is your brain your who you
01:52:13
are? Not really, right? It's not not we
01:52:16
don't really have I think entirely
01:52:18
sufficient answers to these questions.
01:52:20
But at the exact same time, I think it
01:52:22
makes sense that if we are created in
01:52:24
God's image, there's an aspect of we
01:52:26
want to create in our image.
01:52:28
>> And there's going to be that outpouring
01:52:29
of the creation of something new and
01:52:33
amazing and advancing in our
01:52:36
understanding and knowledge. This is
01:52:39
kind of sets people up for this whole
01:52:40
simulation theory argument where they
01:52:42
say that if you imagine any rate of
01:52:45
improvement on our current reality,
01:52:48
>> people are already making virtual
01:52:50
reality worlds. If you can go on so many
01:52:51
different programs now and type in, I
01:52:54
want to go to the top of Mount Everest
01:52:56
and there's a village there. And then
01:52:58
you can experience that in three
01:52:59
dimensions. You can put on a headset and
01:53:01
go to the top of Mount Everest and
01:53:02
there's this rendered village there. M
01:53:04
>> if you imagine any rate of improvement
01:53:06
even 1% a year in this technology
01:53:10
>> eventually whether it's in 500 years or
01:53:13
10,000 years you get to a point where
01:53:15
it's almost indistinguishable from this
01:53:17
experience that mean you are having
01:53:18
today in the real world and so the
01:53:20
simulation theory posits
01:53:22
>> that again you just think about how long
01:53:24
technology's been here it's like 50
01:53:25
years ago we didn't have computers like
01:53:26
this we didn't even have like the iPhone
01:53:28
or phones that's just 50 years
01:53:30
>> imagine billions of years and a rate of
01:53:32
improvement you get to something
01:53:33
indistinguishable from this. And it's
01:53:35
conceivable that me and you with
01:53:36
computers will run simulations. We'll
01:53:38
make things like The Sims and video
01:53:40
games and GTA 6, although that's taking
01:53:43
forever. And with an improvement of
01:53:45
technology, at any rate, those worlds
01:53:47
will feel real theoretically to the
01:53:49
characters within them.
01:53:51
>> So, simulation theory posits that
01:53:53
actually this is what our lives are.
01:53:55
There was an a civilization at some
01:53:57
point in the cosmic universe that got to
01:53:59
that point of technological
01:54:00
sophistication. They ran a bunch of
01:54:02
different simulations on a computer or
01:54:05
whatever their technology was. And this
01:54:06
is one such world we're living in right
01:54:08
now.
01:54:09
>> And that is actually our god. It could
01:54:11
be some four-year-old alien that had a
01:54:13
laptop,
01:54:14
>> right?
01:54:15
>> 10 gazillion years ago. And the big bang
01:54:17
was the day that he started the
01:54:19
simulation.
01:54:20
>> Yeah. Almost like it was intelligently
01:54:22
designed, right?
01:54:23
>> Yeah. Like actually this is like this is
01:54:25
I I think there probably is some kind of
01:54:29
god. I just don't know what what it is.
01:54:32
>> Sure.
01:54:32
>> So, I don't know whether it's the one in
01:54:33
in the book that you have in front of me
01:54:35
here, whether it's the one that they
01:54:36
believe in the Muslim religion or
01:54:39
whether it's like a 4-year-old kid on
01:54:40
his laptop that was messing around in a
01:54:42
technologically sophisticated universe
01:54:44
10 billion years ago,
01:54:45
>> right?
01:54:46
>> But I think there's something bigger
01:54:48
than I am,
01:54:49
>> right? And I think, you know, the the
01:54:51
simulation theory I don't think really
01:54:53
solves the issue because it just kind of
01:54:55
punts the can down the road in that it
01:54:58
still avoids the question of what what
01:55:03
is that? How did we get here? And what
01:55:06
is the ultimate explanation for
01:55:08
everything? So probabilistically is in
01:55:12
the world around us in what we see with
01:55:14
like our relational characteristics and
01:55:16
everything is it possible that we live
01:55:18
in a simulation? I think it yes it is. I
01:55:21
think probabilistically though with how
01:55:25
the description of creation and the
01:55:28
human condition and what we see within
01:55:30
history. I think personally the God of
01:55:33
the Bible is the most reasonable
01:55:35
explanation especially when we're
01:55:37
comparing it to other religious
01:55:38
worldviews. I think the simulation
01:55:39
theory is an interesting one or you know
01:55:41
the string theory multiple universes. I
01:55:44
just think that those are almost like
01:55:46
we're walking around the question. we're
01:55:48
circling around the question and it's
01:55:50
not actually answering. We still need a
01:55:53
god.
01:55:53
>> Yeah. And then, you know, even in the
01:55:55
example I gave with a four-year-old
01:55:56
messing around in his laptop 10 billion
01:55:57
years ago in a technologically advanced
01:55:59
civilization. I then my brain a few
01:56:02
seconds later asked, well, what was the
01:56:04
point of his life?
01:56:05
>> Yeah. And who created him?
01:56:08
>> And I could say the same about God, I
01:56:09
guess, like the God of the Christian
01:56:10
Bible. Like who why is this God? Like
01:56:13
who created this God? Did someone create
01:56:14
this God or is this just has he always
01:56:16
been there?
01:56:16
>> Right? I mean, philosophically, it's a
01:56:18
category error because all things that
01:56:21
are have a beginning have a creator. And
01:56:24
philosophically, the God of the Bible is
01:56:27
an entity that ontologically didn't have
01:56:29
a beginning. So, if we're talking about
01:56:33
an unmoved mover, right, in the kind of
01:56:37
arisatilian
01:56:38
categories of of philosophy, God didn't
01:56:42
have a creator because God is the author
01:56:44
of creation.
01:56:45
>> Okay? It's kind of like asking what does
01:56:47
blue smell like?
01:56:48
>> And God I should think of as like a you
01:56:51
know in the Bible in these well not in
01:56:53
the Bible but in depictions of God it's
01:56:55
like a guy with a beard.
01:56:56
>> Yeah. No.
01:56:58
>> Or it's like some like mystical force
01:57:00
that's kind of like a a white light,
01:57:02
>> right? No. I I think I mean those are
01:57:06
attempts probably inadequately to
01:57:08
express aspects of how we would visually
01:57:13
communicate who God is. I think that
01:57:16
probably misses the mark more than it
01:57:19
actually gets at what you know what and
01:57:21
who God is. I don't know if there's a
01:57:24
there's a proper way that could give a
01:57:27
physical attribution description of God
01:57:30
other than Jesus who is God incarnate,
01:57:34
right? Could you think of a a more
01:57:37
powerful a more amazing example of of a
01:57:40
God than one who actually enters into
01:57:42
his creation?
01:57:43
I don't know. My fiance says that God is
01:57:46
love.
01:57:46
>> Yeah,
01:57:47
>> she says that a lot. My fiance tends to
01:57:49
be right as well.
01:57:49
>> Nice.
01:57:50
>> So, I I tend to in the first time she
01:57:52
says something that I don't believe, I
01:57:53
tend to assume it's not true for a
01:57:55
while, but then it tends to be proven to
01:57:57
be true within a year. So, when she said
01:57:58
to me that God is love, I really thought
01:58:00
deeply about it. I thought maybe she's
01:58:01
right. Maybe love is God.
01:58:03
>> I mean, that's from the Bible. God is
01:58:05
love. The thing grammatically that's
01:58:07
interesting about that when John writes
01:58:09
that in his epistle is grammatically in
01:58:11
the Greek it's phrased in a way that God
01:58:13
is love but love is not God right so you
01:58:17
can't deify the
01:58:20
what love is
01:58:22
when I you know when you love your
01:58:25
fiance that isn't God that's like an
01:58:29
inefficient
01:58:30
description of what we know God to be so
01:58:33
God is love but love is not God. And in
01:58:37
that sense, going back to what I was
01:58:38
saying said a few times now, you know
01:58:41
what what the Bible is saying when it
01:58:42
says God is love is that that is the
01:58:44
ultimate character of who God is in that
01:58:48
love is this highest value. It is that
01:58:52
which we you know hold as the example
01:58:56
ethic of what we want. We want to be
01:59:00
loved, right? To be loved and not known
01:59:05
is
01:59:08
very insufficient.
01:59:10
And to be known but not loved is what we
01:59:14
all fear. But I think what we find in
01:59:17
the Bible is a God who both loves and
01:59:19
knows us. And I think that's where the
01:59:23
God who is love, who creates us and
01:59:26
calls us to love him with all of our
01:59:28
soul, all of our mind, all of our
01:59:30
strength, that properly kind of fulfills
01:59:34
what I think we mean when we say God is
01:59:36
love.
01:59:37
>> There is a a deep crisis of meaning in
01:59:39
the world, especially in you know the
01:59:41
western world. Three in five American
01:59:43
adults between 18 and 25 years old said
01:59:46
that their life lacked meaning and
01:59:48
purpose with 50% of the same group
01:59:50
saying their poor mental health was
01:59:52
linked to not knowing what to do with my
01:59:55
life.
01:59:56
>> And a lack of purpose is significantly
01:59:58
associated with many of the mental
02:00:00
health illnesses like depression and
02:00:02
anxiety. And as of April 2025, the
02:00:04
overall prevalence of depression in US
02:00:06
teenagers and adults has increased by
02:00:08
60% over the last decade according to
02:00:10
the C CDC. And tragically, globally,
02:00:13
more than almost a million people die
02:00:15
due to suicide every year. And it's the
02:00:17
third leading cause of death among 15 to
02:00:20
29 year olds according to the World
02:00:22
Health Organization.
02:00:24
What are we getting wrong?
02:00:26
I think we're looking for our purpose
02:00:27
and our meaning and things that are
02:00:29
ultimately not going to give the value
02:00:32
that those things actually require.
02:00:36
So it's not a matter of if we worship
02:00:39
it's a matter of what we worship and
02:00:42
worship if worship is, you know, giving
02:00:45
our all to something.
02:00:48
I think there's a lot of things within
02:00:50
society that are going to tell us that
02:00:54
our identity is going to be fulfilled in
02:00:57
money or it's going to be fulfilled in
02:01:01
relationships or accolades or all of
02:01:05
these aspects are ultimately going to
02:01:06
fall short in giving us actual purpose
02:01:09
and meaning and if they're not grounded
02:01:12
in actually giving us value. Right? Your
02:01:15
friend is a as far as I understand is a
02:01:16
good example of that. Right? You know,
02:01:18
we can achieve all of these things. You
02:01:20
hear athletes and actors and famous
02:01:24
people talk about all the wealth, all
02:01:26
the like celebrity status they could
02:01:28
possibly desire and being completely
02:01:30
empty, being completely
02:01:33
fulfilled.
02:01:35
And I think that's because
02:01:40
we're we're chasing after
02:01:44
things that aren't going to give us what
02:01:47
we actually need, right? They're
02:01:49
faximiles and cheap reproductions of
02:01:53
what actually can give give us meaning
02:01:55
and purpose. And that's because we are
02:01:57
created to be in relationship with our
02:01:58
God. And that is where we will find our
02:02:01
true identity. That's what's going to
02:02:02
give us the motivation to actually get
02:02:04
up in the morning like your friend you
02:02:05
saying you know you couldn't get up in
02:02:07
the morning
02:02:09
he finds not just a motivational value
02:02:14
in the Christian faith he finds actually
02:02:16
meaning and purpose in the Christian
02:02:17
faith that getting up in the morning has
02:02:21
a purpose that goes beyond the here and
02:02:23
the now and that can affect all of the
02:02:26
people around him and now he can pursue
02:02:30
his entrepreneurial activities or his
02:02:32
relationships or even his finances for
02:02:35
the glory of God. And then that gives it
02:02:38
an ontological meaning that goes beyond
02:02:40
the simple basics of kind of what
02:02:44
secular materialism has to offer.
02:02:47
>> Young men in particular are struggling
02:02:48
in their own unique ways.
02:02:50
>> And is is that in part in your view
02:02:52
because they are worshiping the wrong
02:02:54
role models in life?
02:02:56
>> I think it could be. I think men often
02:02:59
find we find our identity in the things
02:03:00
that we do right well we we hear about
02:03:04
this in that unfortunately we've bought
02:03:07
the lie that we are the sum of our
02:03:09
actions this is why when people lose
02:03:11
their jobs when they get let go of their
02:03:13
careers they have identity crisises
02:03:15
because if we believe that we are the
02:03:17
sum of our actions we can put a lot of
02:03:20
stock in something that is ultimately
02:03:22
going to lead us like empty um same
02:03:26
thing with relationships Right? You
02:03:27
watch any romcom, what is it almost
02:03:30
always about? Lonely guy, lonely girl.
02:03:33
They meet each other. They fall in love.
02:03:36
At the end, everything works out. And
02:03:38
now, now their identity is fulfilled.
02:03:40
Well, I mean, all you have to do is to
02:03:42
get married to know that that's not
02:03:43
going to fulfill every desire and need
02:03:45
you have, right? I love my wife. I love
02:03:48
my marriage. It's one of the best things
02:03:50
that I've ever done. But if I put all of
02:03:53
my eggs in that basket,
02:03:56
it it's it could very well and almost
02:03:58
certainly will lead me astray,
02:04:01
especially if that falls apart,
02:04:03
especially when there are times of
02:04:04
hardship and struggle. So, I think you
02:04:09
are more than the sum of your actions
02:04:11
because you have value that goes beyond
02:04:13
that. And it's actually living out that
02:04:15
value that can give you the meaning and
02:04:16
the purpose you're finding. But men in
02:04:18
particular, we find value in what we do.
02:04:21
I think women although I don't want to
02:04:23
speak you know too broadly I think
02:04:26
speaking in generalities
02:04:28
women find a lot of identity in
02:04:30
relational values
02:04:33
in the relationships that they have with
02:04:35
their friends or their significant
02:04:37
others. Men often find
02:04:40
value in like what they're able to
02:04:42
contribute to physically.
02:04:45
And so
02:04:48
especially in a world where
02:04:51
you know economic crisis is a thing or
02:04:55
work complications with with things like
02:04:58
technology removing a lot of
02:05:00
occupations. I I think that can be a gen
02:05:03
genuine hardship.
02:05:04
>> Yeah. I was just looking at the some
02:05:07
research on PubMed and it says exactly
02:05:08
that. says, "In a recent qualitative
02:05:10
analysis in the United States of suicide
02:05:12
notes, majority male sample, the authors
02:05:15
identified themes that differed by
02:05:17
gender, yeah, such as men more often
02:05:19
referring to financial hardship, etc.,
02:05:21
>> which can imply feelings of failure and
02:05:23
worthlessness tied to traditional roles.
02:05:25
In contrast, women's notes were more
02:05:27
about lowered selfworth and
02:05:29
interpersonal relationships."
02:05:31
>> Mhm. So if that does hold and and we're
02:05:33
implying there that sometimes it's to do
02:05:36
with a feeling of worthlessness for men,
02:05:39
>> are you saying that Christianity can
02:05:42
provide something that is an antidote to
02:05:44
that feeling?
02:05:45
>> I think not only can it provide an
02:05:47
antidote, it can provide the antidote.
02:05:49
>> What would you say to anyone that's
02:05:50
listening right now that feels a little
02:05:52
bit lost in their life? I would say that
02:05:55
you have purpose and you have meaning
02:05:59
more than what society tells you
02:06:03
is going to give you that meaning and
02:06:05
purpose and that there's a God who loves
02:06:08
you and he loves you so much that he
02:06:11
stepped out of eternity and into
02:06:13
humanity and he lived the perfect life
02:06:15
that you couldn't in order to establish
02:06:19
and create the union of the
02:06:22
relationship. ship with God that you're
02:06:24
actually seeking.
02:06:25
>> And what would you tell them step one
02:06:27
would be to go in that direction?
02:06:29
>> Well, I would say, you know, push into
02:06:33
something like read the Bible. I would
02:06:36
say open the Gospel of Matthew, open the
02:06:40
Gospel of John and and start reading and
02:06:44
find out who this Jesus guy is. You
02:06:47
know, investigate that question, why
02:06:50
that is significant, why that matters.
02:06:52
Because the person and character of
02:06:54
Jesus goes beyond simply
02:06:58
an historical character. I think Jesus
02:07:00
was a genuine historical character. He's
02:07:01
no less than that. But he's also so much
02:07:02
more than that. And in discovering who
02:07:04
he is in relation to who you are, that's
02:07:07
going to change your life.
02:07:09
>> Are you noticing that people are asking
02:07:11
you
02:07:12
certain questions about Christianity or
02:07:15
religion or any of the adjacent subjects
02:07:18
more now than they were 10 years ago?
02:07:20
like are there certain themes or topics
02:07:21
that are more front of mind for people
02:07:23
these days?
02:07:24
>> Yeah, I think we've we've gone through a
02:07:26
shift where when I kind of started in
02:07:28
this endeavor of what I'm doing now,
02:07:31
this kind of crescendoed in the last uh
02:07:33
year and a bit. Um when I started out, I
02:07:36
think people are asking a lot more is
02:07:38
God real and is this true? And I think
02:07:42
now people are asking is God good? And I
02:07:45
think it's because it's part and parcel
02:07:47
to this meaning crisis thing. I also
02:07:48
think that there have been some major
02:07:50
moral issues. I mean the whole Epstein
02:07:52
thing right now I think is a testament
02:07:54
to that. We are seeing examples of true
02:07:56
evil and I think that bothers people and
02:07:58
in a world where we can rationalize
02:08:02
subjectivizing evil we understand that
02:08:05
is heinous and if that is evil with a
02:08:08
capital E
02:08:10
where's the G the good with a capital G?
02:08:12
you know, C. Lewis, who I've quoted a
02:08:14
few times, he said uh in his um the
02:08:17
problem of pain and suffering in that
02:08:19
book that he wrote that uh one of his
02:08:21
objections to God was that there was
02:08:24
there was so much evil and chaos in this
02:08:26
world. He said, "But what was I
02:08:28
comparing that to? A man does not call a
02:08:30
line crooked unless he knows what a
02:08:32
straight line looks like." Right? The
02:08:34
reason you understand that there's rot
02:08:36
is because you understand what something
02:08:38
that's healthy is. And so there's an
02:08:41
objective
02:08:44
standard that needs to be weighed by
02:08:47
these things. And I think more than
02:08:50
ever, we're seeing things that really
02:08:54
speak to
02:08:56
the justice questions in terms of the
02:08:59
meaning questions. And that
02:09:02
has really interested me as someone who
02:09:05
is I'm a historian, right? So I'm
02:09:06
interested in the questions about I do
02:09:08
things like read Greek and Coptic most
02:09:11
of the time, right? But I've been
02:09:13
challenged to think more about the
02:09:16
philosophical questions because I think
02:09:18
we live in an age where I'm really
02:09:20
encouraged by people looking at
02:09:22
injustice. There's a lump in our throat
02:09:24
and I think there's a lump in our throat
02:09:25
because Jesus put it there.
02:09:27
>> I think um AI is going to have a big
02:09:29
impact on your work.
02:09:30
>> Yeah.
02:09:30
>> And in ways that might not be super
02:09:32
obvious. I think one of the ways is that
02:09:34
if all these CEOs are true when they say
02:09:38
that AI is going to cause massive job
02:09:39
displacement and even the CEOs that are
02:09:41
building the technology have sat here
02:09:43
and told me that there's going to be
02:09:44
massive job displacement there's going
02:09:45
to be a crisis of meaning people get
02:09:47
huge amount of work from the things that
02:09:48
they do in their lives and they're not
02:09:49
going to be able to do those things in
02:09:51
the same way necessarily and about 60%
02:09:54
of Americans say they're they're worried
02:09:56
that AI will take away the thing that
02:09:58
gives them their meaning. Well, I think
02:10:00
we're just at the footsteps of the mean
02:10:02
crisis of meaning in this regard.
02:10:04
>> Yeah. And that's going to mean that a
02:10:06
lot of people, you know, are going to
02:10:09
struggle a lot. And that concerns me.
02:10:11
>> I mean, I think that's what I'm more
02:10:12
worried about with AI. I'm not worried
02:10:14
about AI taking over the world. I I'm
02:10:16
not worried about, you know, um AI
02:10:19
replacing us or something like that. Uh
02:10:22
if I'm worried about AI, it's that it's
02:10:24
the the pain and suffering that it can
02:10:26
cause for people who have bought into
02:10:28
the lie that the sum of their identity
02:10:32
is in what they can contribute and do
02:10:34
and how the Christian worldview speaks
02:10:37
into that. How can I think Christianly
02:10:39
about a society where there could very
02:10:41
well be
02:10:43
mass identity crises because of
02:10:46
unemployment or because you know the
02:10:50
years ago we were telling truck drivers
02:10:51
learn to code.
02:10:53
>> Well now coders are being replaced by AI
02:10:56
systems right AI can code better than
02:10:58
the coders. So
02:10:59
>> Spotify said yesterday they none of
02:11:01
their engineers have written a line of
02:11:02
code since December. And I thought,
02:11:03
"Wow, hell." Like that's Yeah.
02:11:05
>> And my car drives itself here in uh in
02:11:08
America. I sat here with the other day
02:11:10
with the CEO of Uber and he said to me,
02:11:12
"They have 9 million drivers careers and
02:11:15
within x number of years they will have
02:11:19
none."
02:11:20
>> He said the unique thing is the the
02:11:22
speed of the the change is going to
02:11:24
cause the problems because we had the
02:11:26
industrial revolution. We had time to
02:11:27
you know transfer to other lines of
02:11:29
employment etc. But the speed in which
02:11:31
there's going to be a displacement is um
02:11:33
is going to cause the issues. And I
02:11:36
wonder what's going to happen. I mean, a
02:11:37
lot of people are, you know, they're
02:11:38
going to be in search of meaning. And I
02:11:39
guess that'll that will push some people
02:11:41
towards Christianity and other
02:11:42
religions, but not everybody. Cuz you
02:11:45
said, you know, as you say, when our
02:11:47
identities are pulled away from us in
02:11:49
such a way, some people turn to the
02:11:51
bottle,
02:11:52
>> right?
02:11:52
>> Or um you know, causes mental health
02:11:54
situations.
02:11:56
I mean, humanity has a very unique knack
02:12:00
to pivot
02:12:02
>> and figure things out. Now, is there
02:12:05
going to be uh you know a a l period in
02:12:08
between when that job crisis happens?
02:12:12
Maybe. But, uh I think I think humanity
02:12:18
will figure things out. But I just I
02:12:20
just don't know if that will be before
02:12:23
all of you know it hits the fan.
02:12:26
>> What was the first domino that fell for
02:12:28
you that made you go on this this
02:12:30
journey of becoming an is it the term
02:12:34
Christian apologist?
02:12:35
>> Yeah.
02:12:35
>> Becoming a what does that even mean?
02:12:37
Christian apologist.
02:12:38
>> So I mentioned 1 Peter 3:15 right? But
02:12:41
in your heart Christ is Lord always be
02:12:43
prepared to give an answer. So that is
02:12:45
that apologia. So we take the Greek word
02:12:47
apologia and we stick an English suffix
02:12:49
on the end and we have this field to
02:12:51
study this discipline apologetics.
02:12:53
>> What does that mean? You're you're
02:12:54
explaining the Bible,
02:12:55
>> giving reasons. Yeah. Giving answers. So
02:12:57
apologetics is as complicated as uh
02:13:00
arguments philosophically and
02:13:02
scientifically for the existence of God
02:13:04
and the historical reliability of the
02:13:05
Bible. And as simple as if someone asked
02:13:08
me why Jesus, that's an apologetic
02:13:10
question in so far as it's giving an
02:13:12
answer.
02:13:13
>> I was looking at some of these photos of
02:13:14
you as a young man. I wondered how much
02:13:18
the situation in these photos had an
02:13:20
impact on who you came to be and what
02:13:23
you came to believe. I'll put these
02:13:25
photos on the screen for anybody.
02:13:26
>> Yeah.
02:13:27
>> But um this is a a young boy in a
02:13:30
wheelchair.
02:13:31
>> Yep.
02:13:31
>> And in a hospital bed that looks to be
02:13:33
paralyzed.
02:13:34
>> Yep.
02:13:36
>> Yeah. When I was 11 years old, I was
02:13:37
diagnosed with a rare neurological
02:13:40
condition that left me paralyzed from
02:13:41
the waist down.
02:13:42
>> So you at 10, you were fine. You were
02:13:44
normal.
02:13:45
>> Yeah. And at 11, suddenly you were
02:13:46
paralyzed from the waist down.
02:13:47
>> Yes. So I had the flu and my body's
02:13:49
immune system instead of attacking the
02:13:51
flu attacked the nerve endings at the
02:13:52
base of my spinal cord. So the myelin
02:13:54
sheath and caused inflammation cutting
02:13:56
off the communication from my brain to
02:13:57
my legs.
02:13:58
>> And a lot of people that get that
02:14:00
disease never walk again.
02:14:02
>> It's complicated. Uh so the so is it
02:14:05
called acute transverse myelitis?
02:14:08
Although I've been told recently that
02:14:09
there's a change in the name of the the
02:14:11
diagnosis, but essentially transverse
02:14:15
myitis is not all that rare. But acute
02:14:18
that acute in in terms of the like
02:14:20
quickness of it, I had fallen asleep a
02:14:24
nap for probably no more than 30 minutes
02:14:26
and when I woke up I was paralyzed. So
02:14:28
it was the the quickness of the actual
02:14:31
damage that was done to my spinal cord
02:14:33
that was the catalyst for in the
02:14:37
diagnosis saying that the chances of me
02:14:40
walking again were were very low
02:14:42
>> but within a month you were walking
02:14:44
again.
02:14:44
>> Yeah. 1 month to the day. So in fact the
02:14:47
anniversary 23 year anniversary was
02:14:50
recently cuz it was in February 8th. Um
02:14:52
I woke up on a Saturday morning got out
02:14:54
of bed and walked over to my wheelchair.
02:14:56
Did this change your perspective on God,
02:14:59
Christianity, religion?
02:15:00
>> It did in some ways. I mean, I don't I
02:15:02
don't know how it couldn't. Uh, it
02:15:04
definitely to have medical professionals
02:15:06
tell me
02:15:08
you're probably going to be a paraplegic
02:15:10
for the rest of your life. Like, this is
02:15:12
what you need to kind of accept and and
02:15:14
get used to to the exact same medical
02:15:16
professionals, you know, the um
02:15:18
pediatric neurologists saying we don't
02:15:21
know why you're walking.
02:15:24
that had to have an impact on me in that
02:15:28
I think I I truly believe I was healed
02:15:32
in that it was the doctors who used the
02:15:33
word miracle because they said that they
02:15:36
they couldn't medically explain why
02:15:39
there was no more damage on my spinal
02:15:41
cord, why I was walking with like not
02:15:45
even any like atrophy or anything.
02:15:48
However, I still needed to figure some
02:15:51
of the more intellectual questions out
02:15:52
of my head when I was a teenager. So, it
02:15:54
wasn't just that this happened and
02:15:56
explained a lot because I was open to
02:15:59
the possibility of this being a fluke of
02:16:02
there being a completely randomness to
02:16:05
this.
02:16:06
>> Mhm. And so when I was a teenager, I
02:16:08
investigated a lot, you know, to the
02:16:11
best of my ability as a 17-year-old in
02:16:14
trying to answer some of the more
02:16:16
meaning questions about I know what my
02:16:18
parents raised me to believe, but if I
02:16:20
believe it simply because they told me
02:16:22
to, it's not the worst
02:16:25
reason, but it's also not the best
02:16:26
reason. So that's is the first time that
02:16:28
I uh read the Quran cover to cover. I
02:16:31
was looking into things like the Book of
02:16:32
Mormon and the Bakabita. I was just
02:16:34
curious. That's when you know reading
02:16:36
Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel
02:16:38
Dennett, not in any type of crisis,
02:16:42
faith crisis way, but I was I was
02:16:43
investigating.
02:16:44
>> So you believe in the supernatural?
02:16:46
>> Mhm.
02:16:47
>> Do you believe that we can speak to the
02:16:49
dead?
02:16:49
>> No.
02:16:50
>> You don't believe that?
02:16:51
>> No.
02:16:51
>> So when people
02:16:52
>> Well, I should I should preface that. It
02:16:54
depends what you mean by speaking to the
02:16:55
dead. I think it's I think it's
02:16:57
possible. We have examples of it in the
02:16:59
Bible. Um,
02:17:02
Saul gets a medium to call up the spirit
02:17:07
of Samuel.
02:17:08
>> So, do you believe mediums are telling
02:17:10
the truth when they say that they're
02:17:11
contacting people in the afterlife? I
02:17:13
think that there's a possibility of
02:17:14
engaging the supernatural world, which
02:17:16
is dangerous. And I think there's a very
02:17:20
fuzzy line between mediums who are con
02:17:23
artists and people who are act engaged
02:17:27
in something that is dabbling in the
02:17:30
supernatural.
02:17:31
>> I say this in part because I I've heard
02:17:33
people say that, you know, their
02:17:34
partner's passed away and then they've
02:17:37
seen signs, their partner has left them
02:17:39
signs. Hm.
02:17:41
>> Do do you believe in this kind of thing?
02:17:43
>> I don't think so. Not in those ways. I I
02:17:45
think when people are dead, they're
02:17:47
dead. Um, but I think there are aspects
02:17:50
of the supernatural world and a world
02:17:53
that's going on behind the scenes that's
02:17:55
articulated within scripture that have
02:17:58
an impact on this world in a way that if
02:18:03
people can be distracted and misled to
02:18:06
think that they are contacting dead
02:18:08
relatives, then that is otherwise going
02:18:10
to uh prevent them from pursuing what
02:18:14
they should be as image bearsers of God.
02:18:16
So you think it's demonic in some some
02:18:18
capacity?
02:18:19
>> I think it can be. I don't think it's
02:18:20
always. I think in emotionally
02:18:24
vulnerable states, we are willing to
02:18:26
adhere to all sorts of things.
02:18:28
>> Mhm.
02:18:29
>> And there's a um there's a sensitivity
02:18:32
that I want to communicate around that.
02:18:35
>> Mh. Because I think people especially in
02:18:37
the in the periods of the deaths of
02:18:40
loved ones often want to look for
02:18:45
validation in their passed away loved
02:18:48
ones leaving something or communicating
02:18:51
or
02:18:52
>> and also that we all want to believe
02:18:53
when we lose people we love that they
02:18:55
are somewhere better that they are in a
02:18:57
good place and this is one of the the
02:18:59
things that I struggled with earlier
02:19:00
when we were talking about hell which is
02:19:02
if such a small percentage of people are
02:19:04
making it to hell by whatever measure of
02:19:06
acceptance one believes, then that would
02:19:09
mean that like my grandmother who wasn't
02:19:12
necessarily a devout religious person or
02:19:15
a Christian or she hadn't repented is
02:19:17
currently in hell. And that's a hard
02:19:20
thought to take that she is in such a
02:19:23
awful place now.
02:19:25
>> Yeah. And this will this this would
02:19:26
obviously make people not want to
02:19:28
experience that dissonance and therefore
02:19:29
reject religion and say, "Well, no, my
02:19:32
if I accept the Bible, then I have to
02:19:33
accept my grandmother's currently
02:19:35
burning in hell,
02:19:36
>> right?
02:19:37
>> And so I'm going to reject the Bible.
02:19:39
It's much easier than accepting that my
02:19:41
grandmother's suffering right now,
02:19:42
>> right? I mean, ultimately that's a um I
02:19:47
I wouldn't do it that way. Therefore,
02:19:49
it's not true."
02:19:50
>> Sorry. What you mean? Well, I don't
02:19:53
think that God should send my
02:19:55
grandmother to hell.
02:19:56
>> Yeah.
02:19:57
>> Therefore, I'm going to conclude that
02:19:59
it's not true based on that type of Now,
02:20:02
at the end of the day,
02:20:05
does God communicate with people in ways
02:20:07
that go beyond my understanding? I've
02:20:10
talked to enough Muslims in the Muslim
02:20:12
world who've had dreams about Jesus to
02:20:15
know that something goes on. like I
02:20:17
don't understand sometimes what what
02:20:20
happens on the deathbed between an
02:20:22
individual and their maker. So it's not
02:20:25
my place to say that they are burning in
02:20:27
hell or whatever you know descriptive
02:20:28
language you want to use
02:20:30
>> cuz I it's that's between them and God
02:20:33
at the exact same time apart from the
02:20:35
saving work of Christ I'm going to hell.
02:20:38
So, and I I genuinely believe that is
02:20:40
that apart from the inbreaking of God
02:20:43
into my life in part and parcel by
02:20:45
things like this, but also by like
02:20:48
showing me and allowing me to
02:20:50
investigate these things and wrestle
02:20:52
through questions and putting people in
02:20:54
places in my life that have formed me
02:20:57
and shaped me and allowed me to look at
02:20:59
the evidence and have conversations and
02:21:01
be honest and transparent. And those are
02:21:04
the things that have led me down a road
02:21:06
to say, you know, I'm convinced. I'm
02:21:08
convinced that this is true
02:21:10
experientially, that it is
02:21:11
intellectually
02:21:13
robust, and that it is experientially
02:21:17
profound
02:21:18
for me and for so many other people,
02:21:22
your friend included.
02:21:24
>> What's the most important thing that we
02:21:26
haven't talked about that we should have
02:21:27
talked about, Wesley? For the people
02:21:29
that are listening, you know, I would
02:21:30
assume they're very curious people. Some
02:21:32
of them are religious, some of them
02:21:33
aren't. What is the most important thing
02:21:34
that we should close on in your view?
02:21:37
>> Part of my academic study is that I do
02:21:39
what's called paparology and
02:21:41
paleography. So I make faximiles of
02:21:44
manuscripts, ancient manuscripts, um
02:21:46
particularly biblical manuscripts. So
02:21:48
this is a biblical manuscript, right?
02:21:50
P46.
02:21:51
It's a late second or third century page
02:21:55
from a collection of Paul's epistles. So
02:21:59
>> Paul from the Bible.
02:22:00
>> Paul from the Bible. He wrote this.
02:22:02
>> Well, so he wrote that and then a scribe
02:22:04
in the second century copied it down. So
02:22:07
this is I made this. So this is genuine
02:22:09
papyrus. I'm only wrote on one side so
02:22:11
you could see kind of how the papyrus is
02:22:13
put together. And then I got you a I got
02:22:15
you a nice Bible.
02:22:16
>> Oh,
02:22:16
>> but I have put a bookmark in the page
02:22:20
where that passage is.
02:22:22
>> Why why did you pick that particular
02:22:23
passage?
02:22:24
>> Well, why don't you open it up and read
02:22:26
it? So it's it's on the little
02:22:28
inscription note that I have there. uh
02:22:30
Romans 12. So you can see on the bottom
02:22:34
there that there's the title.
02:22:36
>> Oh yeah. 12 112.
02:22:38
>> So it says, "Rejoice in hope. Be patient
02:22:41
in tribulation. Be constant in prayer.
02:22:45
Contribute to the needs of the saints
02:22:47
and seek to show hospitality. Bless
02:22:50
those who persecute you. Bless and do
02:22:52
not curse them. Rejoice with those who
02:22:54
rejoice. Weep with those who weep. Live
02:22:57
in harmony with one another. Do not be
02:23:00
haughty, but associate with the lowly.
02:23:04
Never be wise in your own sight. Repay
02:23:07
no one evil for evil, but give thought
02:23:10
to do what is honorable in the sight of
02:23:12
all. If possible, so far as it depends
02:23:15
on you, live peacefully with all.
02:23:18
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but
02:23:22
leave it to the wrath of God. For it is
02:23:25
written, "Vengeance is mine. I will
02:23:29
repay, says the Lord. To the contrary,
02:23:31
if your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he
02:23:34
is thirsty, give him something to drink.
02:23:37
For by so doing, you will heat burning
02:23:39
coals on his head. Do not be overcome by
02:23:42
evil, but overcome evil with good.
02:23:46
>> So hopefully that's a good passage to
02:23:49
>> beautiful
02:23:49
>> remember, think about, and then that's
02:23:52
the box for it.
02:23:53
>> Thank you so much. This is so beautiful.
02:23:55
Wesley, we have a closing tradition on
02:23:57
this podcast where the last guest leaves
02:23:58
a question for the next not knowing who
02:23:59
they're leaving it for. And the question
02:24:00
left for you is, "What is one risk that
02:24:03
you should be taking in your life but
02:24:06
aren't currently?" where I am in my
02:24:09
life, I feel like so many things have
02:24:11
happened so quickly that there's like an
02:24:15
aspect of unpredictability and I I'm
02:24:18
just a little bit My wife and I were
02:24:20
talking last night and it was like we
02:24:22
need to embrace what's happening right
02:24:23
now, but from a year from now if it's
02:24:26
all gone that's totally okay.
02:24:28
>> Mhm. and and and we're fine with that
02:24:31
whether that's you know financially or
02:24:32
with social media or or opportunity or
02:24:36
and maybe the risk is pushing into that
02:24:39
and and and saying like you know maybe
02:24:42
there's an aspect of that yes I think
02:24:44
it's wise to keep that in calibration
02:24:47
and understand that if this goes away
02:24:49
tomorrow I'm content because this is
02:24:53
beyond what I have I'm in a room sitting
02:24:55
with Steven Bartlett
02:24:57
>> I'm in a room sat with So there's an
02:24:59
there's an aspect of that which is is
02:25:01
completely mind-blowing to me,
02:25:03
especially Wes Huff from a year ago.
02:25:07
But maybe not selling myself short and
02:25:10
thinking that, you know, these
02:25:13
opportunities are opportunities to
02:25:17
invest in others in ways that people
02:25:19
have invested in me over this last year.
02:25:21
>> What do you mean by that? You mean
02:25:23
>> with some of the things that I've I've
02:25:25
been very uh graciously able to
02:25:28
experience and in giving other people
02:25:30
opportunity to maybe push into trying to
02:25:35
make an impact in their space.
02:25:39
>> Oh, okay.
02:25:39
>> And encouraging them,
02:25:40
>> pulling people up the ladder
02:25:42
>> that you've been able to climb.
02:25:43
>> Yeah.
02:25:44
>> Paying it forward to or paying it
02:25:45
downward, I guess.
02:25:46
>> Yeah.
02:25:48
>> This is so so cool. Well, I'm I'm very
02:25:50
thankful for you willing to have me on.
02:25:52
So, thank you for
02:25:53
>> No, thank you. You're such a great
02:25:55
communicator and um you're so finely
02:25:59
balanced in in your ability to deeply
02:26:02
understand everything you're talking
02:26:03
about from a historical perspective to
02:26:05
be in the pursuit of truth as you kind
02:26:07
of said irrespective of where that one
02:26:09
might lead somebody but then you have
02:26:11
the gift of yeah the gift of
02:26:13
communication incredibly engaging person
02:26:16
good intentions good man so I was very
02:26:18
very you know very very glad we had this
02:26:20
conversation and very much looking
02:26:21
forward to it for a very long time so
02:26:22
I'm glad you said yes I was asking my
02:26:23
team for maybe I don't know maybe nine
02:26:26
months to to get in contact with you.
02:26:28
>> Well, I apologize cuz I hit no a few
02:26:29
times.
02:26:29
>> No, it's okay. It's okay. But um I'm
02:26:31
really really appreciative of it,
02:26:32
Wesley, and I hope to have this
02:26:33
conversation again sometime soon.
02:26:34
>> Yeah, that'd be great.
02:26:35
>> Thank you. YouTube have this new crazy
02:26:37
algorithm where they know exactly what
02:26:39
video you would like to watch next based
02:26:41
on AI and all of your viewing behavior.
02:26:44
And the algorithm says that this video
02:26:46
is the perfect video for you. It's
02:26:48
different for everybody looking right
02:26:50
now. Check this video out and I bet you
02:26:52
you might love it.
