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I've been asked by the FBI I've been asked by the police to help with the FBI
or the police went out with
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[Music] [Applause]
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psychological illusion doing extraordinary
television and even better live shows Darren
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is a National Treasure welcome to the show the
story We Tell ourselves is not what's real like
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for example I did a show called Miracle the Lord
has his work cut out tonight and the second half
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was healing the woman came up and she'd been
paralyzed on one side of her body since she was four in floods of Tears because she could move her
left arm for the first time what you're seeing is
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that it's the psychological component of suffering
right like nothing's happened nothing's changed but their relationship to their suffering that's
been made to change it's not the things in life
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that cause your problems it's the story that you
tell yourself about them it's the judgments that you make about them there's a lot of people that
are trying to sell you on this [ __ ] that they
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can take your traumas or your your insecurities
to zero I've never seen it happen we've completely
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obliterated the idea of just fortune and life
sometimes life's throwing stuff back at us if we have no control over anxiety is still somehow
the demon but you know without anxiety how do
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you know to change anything you know you can't
do that without embracing anxiety to an extent you were is predominantly based in Psychology
right so have you ever done anything and thought
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how the [ __ ] did that happen don't go home
and start doing that two things come to mind
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before this episode starts I have a small
favor to ask from you two months ago 74 of
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we're now down to 69 my goal is 50 so if you've
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foreign [Music] the last few days
reading all about your childhood oh
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truly fascinating thank you actually I've
actually got a picture here have you um
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how strange that you have that picture
yes that's me with a um a parrot on my shoulder after you have this little boy yes
what do I need to understand about about him
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and the world he lived in and the way he saw
the world to understand you what do you need
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to understand well I was an only child till I was
nine uh so I guess that's kind of that's a pretty
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formative thing isn't it um quite creative like
always always drawing and Building Things Lego
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um always been a bit of a people pleaser and maybe
that at that age a kind of yeah sort of happy
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didn't have a lot of friends there wasn't like
a didn't have a big gang I never really did I've always gone through life just with sort of a small
number of of good friends uh but I think there's
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one that feels like a happy a happy time to think
back on I remember sitting with Jimmy Carr and him
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telling me that um people often think of comedians
as being like they're depressed so they're trying to impress other people to get some kind of thrill
for their own sort of self-gratification but Jimmy
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said to me he said you should actually ask
which one of my parents was depressed that
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I was trying to impress to understand how I
became a comedian and I wonder you said that you're a bit of a people pleaser you clearly
have this huge Affinity towards entertaining
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and getting the reaction back from people the
amazement where where did that start can you have you pinpointed where that started in your
childhood yes I think I could so when I was at
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school so my dad was a swimming teacher at school
and uh he and I wasn't very sporty so I kind of
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um it shielded me from being like uh bullied as
an as a non-sporty kid but I didn't love school
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mainly because I said I found a lot of the kids
the sporty gets quite intimidating and so on so I
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kind of like but Dad teaching that helped and then
when I got to and I was I was in with the wrong
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group the um the sort of classical music loving
group or the puff gang as we were less charitably
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known um didn't even like classical music so it
was a pretty miserable group to be stuck with
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um in sixth form I remember everybody sort
of seemed to grow up suddenly become a lot more uh friendly and so I kind of uh I sort of
exploded in a way into sort of like a attention
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seeking and I went from being very sort of quiet
and a bit a bit intimidated by these sort of uh
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kids to sort of um suddenly they seem to sort of
you know like me or at least you know they were
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fine so I I started doing impressions of teachers
and I would draw caricatures with them and I was
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def I became a kind of really I would imagine
quite irritating certainly some of the teachers
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um attention seeker so I think
it all happened around then um and then it just sort of then progressed
into University most of my twenties was
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um probably a lot of it was around you know based
around that uh and it was quite a handy thing you
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know if you're going to perform it takes care of
that need to just sort of you know just kind of
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impress I think it was probably a a good thing
were you picked on ortized or anything in school
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before that point no so because I think because
my dad taught there it helped but I was I was definitely always chosen last for the teams and
and things hated uh Sports and so on there were a
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couple of kids that were probably I mean generally
fairly nasty anyway but I certainly got uh
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a a bit from them but no I think I think I sort
of did all right I think I generally didn't enjoy
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school that much and I felt like I was sort
of um I said intimidated but I don't I don't
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really remember ever getting sort of I never got
beaten up or bullied or no one was making my life particularly miserable I think it was just
the general feeling of not quite fitting in
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and religion I was incredibly religious well
yeah and then I hosted it at about 18 became
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incredibly atheist yeah and you I read a similar
sort of Journey in your story at six or something
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you'd asked your parents if you could go to
Bible That's Right Mrs Whitaker one of our teachers at school was uh I really liked a lot
and um she ran it was called Crusader class but
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it's basically like a Sunday school thing um
and uh because I was six and she asked me if
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I wanted to go to it and I just sort of Presumed
every Everybody did I didn't know any different so I said to uh I asked my parents if I could go
and they said yes of course so I did and by the
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time I realized that oh no this is actually like
a a thing that I now believe in it was sort of I was pretty much inculcated so it was uh hard to
step out of it but I did eventually at University
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so many years later I uh through doing hypnosis
first and magic and they always give you quite
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a skeptical outlook on things because you just
see how people fool themselves and and so you
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sort of naturally start to view a lot of belief
systems I think through those eyes including
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your own I don't know how it was for you but
I um and also the very idea of doing hypnosis
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um I just remember that was because I was a
member of the Christian union in my first year at University I went to Bristol and they
were just totally up in arms I had I had
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um members of the that Christian union at the back
of one of my shows exorcizing me and casting out
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demons whilst I was hypnotizing people on
stage so again all of that just sort of uh
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made me quite just help with the sort of General
skepticism and it took a little while to properly
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come out of it in fact that the Richard Dawkins
book The The God Delusion came out around the time
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that I had sort of mentally made that
step but didn't quite maybe have the
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sort of proper language for it so that was if
that was a helpful book actually I'm sure it was for many people in terms of giving that
lack of belief a kind of a structure it was
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for me one of the very sort of pivotal books
in my life when I when I was about 18 years old
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um I also a bit about like compulsive behaviors
from your childhood things like knocking your knees together and yeah a series of other things
really Twitchy yeah a little on that sort of kind
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of Tourette's sort of scale I think there's
a there's a there's a wedge that ends with
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um quite severe things but a lot a
lot of people have that experience of um making a little funny tickly noises in the
throat or having to you know not step on the
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cracks and uh there's all the kind of OCD thing
that that starts to get accompanied by feelings of
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dread and so much I never had that but yeah I was
twitching I I find a lot of um kind of creative
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Creative Kids are don't I don't really know what
what it is it's a it's a seems to be a form of
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Auto suggestion um it's like when you get you get
the idea in your head and then it's very hard to
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let it go and sometimes I I get it now sometimes
I get it on stage because there's a certain amount
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there's a lot of muscle memory with doing a stage
show so if you if something if a little twitch you think is crept in at one point during the show
it'll just creep in every night um so I still kind
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of uh still aware of it um a little more over the
last few years because obviously it's been such
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a you know weird few years for everyone's mental
health so I've noticed it more than I had before
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um but uh yeah and it was quite it was a it was
a lot my parents were quite despairing with it
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I think it's a very painful thing to watch should
child do and not know what were they watching how to help knees knocking sniffing terrible sniffing
yeah like Rip but really really loud I went to
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see a um Alfred brendel The Pianist playing in
Berlin once when I was uh studying out there I
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think or did my Gap year I think it was out there
and just I mean this guy's playing the I think
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it was the Beethoven piano sonatas just him on
his own on the stage at the Berlin Philharmonic and there's this incredibly loud sniffing that I'm
doing and by the second half everybody had cleared
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out I was just basically a whole empty area of the
audience but yeah just it's such a bizarre thing
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um you just can't really stop it with the best one
in the world you can't stop yourself from doing this there's these things and it's um and you also
you don't have the language for it as a kid that's
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that's the worst part of it you don't have the
language to explain that it's a compulsion it you
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sort of feel like you're in control of it you say
you feel like therefore the only thing you can say is that you want to do it if you don't want to do
it because it's horrible you'd really really want
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to stop and it's it's hard and frightening because
you can't articulate it and it um uh and I I think
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there's no answer to it I think just it sort of
passes as you've um as you've matured has your
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perspective of your childhood evolved because
I've found that mine certainly has it's almost like with with a bit more wisdom I say that I'm
30 years old now but with a little bit more wisdom
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I've I've kind of have a different perspective now
on the events of my childhood at one point I would have kind of narrated them differently but now
I see different sort of truths and through lines
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in my early experience I think I'm quite fond
of my memories of myself as a child and I um
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it felt like there was quite a clean break once
I sort of went off to University it felt like
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life sort of stopped and started again
so I when I think back to my kind of
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um the sort of story of myself that I guess I'm
sort of quietly living out the back of my head I
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sort of don't really go much Beyond uh University
age um and I'll happily find anything excruciating
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like you know more than you know anything I've
said or done 10 minutes ago I find that quite easy
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um and that feeling I suppose kind of
gets weaker and weaker the further I go
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back in terms of finding myself you know
embarrassing I and then by the time I get to Childhood it's all perfectly or feels fine
I mean I'm aware as I said that I was kind of
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would sort of just get on with my own things but
nothing I I uh I think I was sensitive I think I
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still am I was quite a sensitive child I used to
I did used to cry a lot I know that makes me sound
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unhappy but I I used to it didn't take much to
make me cry um and I think I probably retained
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a sort of uh sensitivity which is sort of
interesting so to write a lot about stoicism
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and a lot of the things I think people you people
do tend to write about the things that you know
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that they either need to learn for themselves or
our learning so you know you express those things
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um often better because you're discovering them
for free for yourself um so uh perhaps like a lot
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of stoics I'm you know secretly quite uh quite
sensitive too so I remember that but not not
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um not really unhappy not not totally blissfully
happy either but just a kind of Fairly content
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solitary kind of kid that sensitivity um
I've always wondered if if we're particularly
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taken by the Applause are we
therefore also taken by the criticism
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so people that don't end up committing their
lives to being like public entertainers and living for the response and the reaction
that their work has are those then also
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the people that are most susceptible to
when you know the opposite of applause
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uh yeah I yes I guess so you're definitely putting
yourself out there aren't you if you you perform
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and you thought you are kind of you are um opening
yourself up to both extremes of reactions but it
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wasn't really about that for me I I um I think
it was about uh control was a big part of it
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and also as a sort of um like I didn't come out
until I was actually sort of quite late in my 30s
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um and I think around the time that I was getting
into the hypnosis that was you know sort of
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University time really uh and I think first of
all it was this is all wasn't clear to me at the
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time but with hindsight that the control aspect
of it was very um clear uh and actually ticked
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well if you watch a hypnotist hypnotizing people
I mean it's just that the whole thing is a big exercise in in control and I think I've sort of
that was appealing to me although I didn't know
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it I didn't it didn't strike me quite in that
language at the time but I think looking back um that was helpful um and also I think
if the old um outmoded cliche of the
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the gay man in particular being you know a
hairdresser or a interior designer and all of
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those sort of horrible old cliches what they have
in common actors as well is the um the notion of
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being able to create dazzling surfaces because
they they deflect people from the more difficult
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but if you're feeling Shame about you know
what's underneath um and I think Magic's very good for that as well you know you're you're sort
of creating this bubble around yourself this sort
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of this um you're literally hiding behind a trick
and people will look at that trick and go oh gosh
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you're amazing how do you do that you're amazing
that's a very appealing thing a lot of kids get
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into magic because they're underconfident um
and a lot of people even going through magic into adults they they've learned to rely on that
to impress people and haven't had to go back and
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just work through normal social skills that
most people do so it's it's a very appealing
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thing I think all of that was all of that
was helpful to me as somebody that was
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not out and you know kind of working all that
stuff out use the word shame there it reminded
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me of listening to your audiobook where you
talk about those two kids beating you up in
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your sleeping bag I can't remember them oh yeah
yeah that's right yeah and one of the lines you said in that section of the book is that you were
very good at I think you said embodying shame
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but I know that's not the exact word you used but
they were very good at liking holding shame you're full of shame I think was the the um the message
yeah I I can't remember exactly what I wrote but
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um yeah kind of it creeps up on you I said I
I find now it's um yeah I can ease I'm prone
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to it you know if I feel I've uh upset my partner
I'll it's it's a shame that I'll go to rather than
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defensiveness or you know yeah I just I'll easily
I can easily get back to a feeling of like oh I've
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you know I've been bad I've just sort of let this
person down is that what does shame mean to you
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because I think I've been using the word a little
bit without um a very focused definition I've been saying that I felt a lot of shame because I was
the only like black hidden in all white school and
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we were the poorest family and so that feeling
of Shame turned into like a motivation which made me want to become a happy sexy millionaire
but what does shame mean to you in that context
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well I suppose if you distinguish it from
embarrassment embarrassment is sort of where you sort of you've let yourself down in front
of or you've it's it's a feeling you're going to
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get from other people they're they're important
in that it's how you've appeared before them or as I suppose shame as how you've appeared before
yourself that you've sort of let something down
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within yourself it's that isn't it um uh but I
think the experience of it is just a sort of um
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it just becomes an easy resting place whatever
it is but it might be someone else it could be anger or Fury or whatever if there's just a
an emotional through line that you've that
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was a familiar place when you were young it's
just you just find yourself settling back into
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that and I suppose part of getting older is
recognizing those kind of things aren't they recognizing Ah that's that is a you know a
needless pattern and as you said with your
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own experience with that can those things can be
really helpful they can provide a real impetus
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and a motivation to um you know to do things
you wouldn't if I mean like not not being out
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all that energy was going into creating this Mr
Magic kind of Persona and I just you know and
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although it's easy to say you know you should
always always come out and all the rest of it and of course those things are important too
but I don't think I'd be I wouldn't be sitting
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here talking to you now I don't think if if that
had been an easy ride you know um shame being a
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a familiar resting place as you kind of describe
it and you said that kind of starts in your childhood I just want to be because I want to
make sure that I'm clear on the context here that
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that has a familiar sort of um history in your
childhood because of the social dynamics of your
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childhood because you felt like a bit different
and a bit like a loner is that what you're saying or is there other Dynamics with parents where
they I know I think specifically with sort of
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the the gay thing I think I think I think that's
what it is I think if you feel and hopefully it's
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different now it's just you know it's just
going back a bit I'm 51 now so but if you feel like those things are just embarrassing and
awkward you're kind of you know it's not like you
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really get to well you're finding it out in real
time about yourself aren't you so there's just
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uh it becomes an uncomfortable Center of
everything that starts to affect so much
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of what happens on the surface and there's a real
experience I think if you're not out which I've recognized in many friends as well but there's a
bit of just a bit of a bubble around you because
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you're sort of you're having to maintain a kind
of a um a sort of curated exterior and and part
00:20:12
of that then is then what's happening underneath
is is uncomfortable and difficult and feels shameful um so I think that's it I think that's
where I don't remember feeling that as a kid as I
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said quiet and so on but I don't remember feeling
that as an experience but it just sort of just
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kind of crept in and the more the more I sort of
um uh kind of was leaning into the magic Persona
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thing the more the more the outside becomes
sort of you know the the harder and more sort of
00:20:46
um uh opaque this sort of exterior presentation
becomes I think the it goes hand in hand with a
00:20:53
more shameful interior until in the end you
just sort of oh [ __ ] that and just sort of
00:21:00
let it all be fine was was there a point
and this might be a really naive question as a straight guy but was there a point where
it became crystal clear to you that your your
00:21:10
sexual preference was different or was it slow
sort of realizations and yeah it was cut um if
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it's sort of because you can never really
climb into anyone else's head yeah and sort of understand what their experience is it's it's
it's sort of um it's often difficult to really
00:21:29
know and of course at the time I was also a proper
Christian um which uh slightly kind of messes the
00:21:36
thing up and just slightly gets in the way of the
whole thing I had a friend who went through the um some of that kind of uh Living Waters movement
which is the kind of gay conversion it's got
00:21:50
called Gay conversion therapy it was a bit more
subtle than that but nonetheless is basically that so he was going through that and although I didn't
I was kind of um skirted it a little bit because
00:22:01
I was his friend and you know it was something we
were talking about a lot um so all of those things
00:22:08
an obviously by the way it doesn't
work just in case I was wondering um I mean I went in straight it worked
for me um uh so yeah it was sort of um
00:22:20
I don't know I don't there's never just a clear
moment it's just uh I think as I just got in the public eye I thought I don't want this to be
some weird sort of thing that's like a secret
00:22:29
um so uh and then you come out of it and you come
out about it and then actually the uh the The Joy
00:22:36
the reason why it's liberating at least it was
for me and probably hopefully most people now is that people just don't care like this thing
that you've carried around and that experience
00:22:46
that shameful Center that's there again shame is
a really strong word but nonetheless it is kind of
00:22:53
just this sort of awkward thing and
eventually when it when you sort of
00:23:01
are open about it it's just people don't care
why why would they care so that's that's the lib that's why it's liberating it's not
because suddenly you can you know spin
00:23:09
around in the street with your shopping bags
it's um it's just that oh no one cares about
00:23:14
you're driving difficult private stuff in the
best way so actually and you've done the big one like you've so now anything else after this
will be will be fine that I think that's why
00:23:22
it's a liberating thing I really quite I think
it was in the telegraph well you'd said that
00:23:28
um maybe the journalist was commentating that um
something as simple as mislaying your keys can
00:23:34
trigger a whole new wave of self-hatred oh God
that was me saying that was it uh yeah that's
00:23:43
just Fury though isn't it when you can't find
a circle you can't find your keys or your pen um self-hatred I mean is a strong strong word
uh I think the people maybe yeah maybe it does
00:23:53
yeah I probably would yes I would reflect
it back on myself rather than being angry
00:23:58
my partner anybody else who's probably lost it
that's what he'd do he'd be angry that I I must have put his keys somewhere because he can't find
them I would just be yeah beating myself up for
00:24:08
why am I always losing stuff why can't I remember
where I put things yeah I definitely would do that interesting I wouldn't no no it wouldn't I don't
think it would reflect on my my own self-image
00:24:20
if I lost the keys or even if it did it wouldn't
negatively reflect I think that's just who I am
00:24:26
that's who I am yeah I'm one organized versus
like oh I'm so in organized I hate I hate that
00:24:31
about myself yeah well I don't know when I said
that that was probably quite a while ago and uh
00:24:37
I don't know if I'd necessarily be that hard on
myself now plus unless you exaggerate these things
00:24:42
for rhetorical effect um has anything changed
like on a really fundamental level yeah I'm so
00:24:49
curious about how how how could we are actually
changing some of these things because we say yeah
00:24:54
we talk about it but as I've got an older and
older and as I've done more and more of these interviews I tend to find that they're like real
fundamental stuff is never healed it never goes
00:25:04
away and I actually think that's really good news
for people because there's a lot of people that are trying to sell you on this [ __ ] that they
can take your traumas or your your insecurities to
00:25:12
zero yeah I've never seen it happen no that's all
wrong and even even stoicism in a way is sort of
00:25:19
um a little guilty of that um even something
that's talked about talking about rolling with the
00:25:25
punches of life is still kind of suggesting that
and if you get this right you won't be disturbed
00:25:30
you know you won't experience anxiety that is all
that's a little bit off really I think the nature of life is that it is it is difficult and uh not
all the time but a lot of the time things really
00:25:41
go badly and they certainly don't go as you
planned and you know that you actually as you start to get older you realize your plans probably
have nothing to do with how things are turning out
00:25:49
but the illusion that they are is what propels
you through the first half of life um so uh
00:25:57
actually I think the project the task our task
is um a certain amount of is sort of personal
00:26:06
development and in integrating ourselves with
the parts of us that we are uncomfortable with
00:26:13
so again that's the project of relating to what's
difficult within ourselves and then how we do that
00:26:18
in life as well how we relate to things that
are difficult and tricky in life because the
00:26:24
thing about although that experience can be very
um isolating those feelings of you know when life
00:26:32
lets you down or you feel you've failed
they tend to be quite isolating experiences
00:26:37
um like shame right that's a very isolating
thing whereas actually and weirdly this I'm doing this show showing at the moment and
this is entirely what the show's about
00:26:46
those isolating experiences like they're exactly
the things that join us all up that is the
00:26:52
that is The Human Experience how how do we deal
with the difficulties of life you know when things
00:26:57
are going badly and we feel
like we fail that's that's what we all have to find our way through so the
things that feel most isolating are the things
00:27:05
that tend to connect us um so I don't think
it's about trying to bury them under sort of
00:27:11
you know some sort of forced optimism and
it isn't about reaching a Nirvana of of
00:27:19
um a problem-free life I think that's uh it's a
really sort of terrible project because you're
00:27:26
going to end up blaming yourself for failing
you weren't a good enough stoic or you weren't a good enough Optimist or whatever um always
reminded me of the faith healers that I um
00:27:35
spent a lot of time watching and when they do
that thing of saying throw away your pills and if your illness returns it's because you didn't
have enough Faith like it's your fault and that's
00:27:46
no different from the you know the the secret you
know the um the Law of Attraction this is yeah
00:27:51
it's the same thing it's the same thing you have
to completely commit yourself and if it doesn't work out if the universe doesn't provide you with
it's always jewelry and money and cars a bit odd
00:28:01
um then you didn't have enough Faith um
it wasn't you know it was your own fault um so it's a perfect cycle of uh blame um
uh which exonerates the um the actual system
00:28:13
completely inputs the blame uh entirely on on you
so I'm yeah I uh there's a bit of an irony in the
00:28:20
fact that people choose those books because they
they don't want responsibility but failure puts responsibility back on them because I think of
like the the law of attract I actually had a
00:28:28
conversation with um a girl I was dating many
years ago in New York and she actually got out the cab and walked off because I said to her
that I she believed that she could visualize
00:28:36
anything into existence I went so you believe
that you can just think about something and then it will happen so you could think about
becoming a billionaire and what happened she
00:28:43
went yes I was like no I don't agree with that
but house because you put out into the universe and then it comes back and what they're doing
in that to me it seems like they're alleviating
00:28:52
their own sense of responsibility they're putting
it up to the puppet master in the universe but as you've described then when that fails the blame is
ultimately on them for not doing it yeah it must
00:29:00
be awful as opposed to it was just a bad idea to
to begin with and more helpfully how do we live
00:29:08
comfortably with the universe that doesn't give a
[ __ ] what we what our plans are well why would it doesn't make any sense so how do we how do we
navigate and that there's a there is an ancient
00:29:18
uh sort of image it's it's appeared in so many
different forms of an x equals y diagonal so
00:29:26
if you imagine a graph and you've got along
one axis you've got the x-axis is the stuff
00:29:32
you want to achieve in life your aims and your
plans and then the other access the y-axis is
00:29:37
just life what they used to call Fortune it's
all the stuff that just gets thrown at you um if you imagine the line that we lead in our
in our lives it's a sort of an x equals y line
00:29:49
right it's sort of an undulating line so sometimes
our plans are winning and we're doing great and sometimes life's throwing stuff back at us we have
no control over and things are gone horrible and
00:29:58
someone's got ill or whatever it is so there's
this sort of undulating x equals y diagonal
00:30:03
where we're being pulled in these two different
directions that's what we live that's just sort of reality and the nature of the kind of the American
optimistic model is that by believing in ourselves
00:30:15
weaken and this is not it's an old hangover from
protestantism um the sort of work ethic that you
00:30:21
can by believing in yourself you can crank that
line up so it's in line with your aims and your
00:30:27
goals um and we just it's it's a we've completely
obliterated the idea of just fortune and life from
00:30:37
that you know we used to we used to call people
um unfortunate now we call them losers you know
00:30:43
so there's a there's a a lack of respect now for
just the fact that life is throwing stuff back
00:30:49
at you so how do you how do you navigate that I
think actually stoicism is a very good toolkit
00:30:56
foreign pretty much all of your listeners will
be familiar with but the the bottom line of it is
00:31:04
is that you know the the the things in life it's
not the things in life that cause your problems it's the the story that you tell yourself about
them it's the judgments that you make about them
00:31:12
which is a very good and sensible idea that's
made its way down to us um over the last couple
00:31:18
of thousand years and then Allied to that you take
all the stuff you have no control over outcomes
00:31:25
what other people do and what they think and so on
and you can just decide that that stuff is fine as it is and you can just focus on the stuff only
try and change the stuff you can actually change
00:31:33
which is the world of your own thoughts and your
own actions and that's where we should put our
00:31:39
attention and then there's interesting there is a
middle ground of uh you know like if you're well
00:31:46
success of any sort you know there's parts of
that you're in control of and parts that you're not so it's like a best analogy I've read for
is like going into a game of tennis if you go in
00:31:55
determined to win and then your uh your opponent
is playing better than you you're probably going
00:32:00
to get anxious and you're going to feel that
you're failing whereas if you go in determined to play as well as you can again just to control
the part you're in you're in charge of then uh it
00:32:09
sort of doesn't matter if your opponents a bit
better than you or they start to win you're not you're not failing you know you're and the same
goes for um you know the stomachs were big movers
00:32:19
and shakers you if you want to change the world
you can but you're only gonna emotionally commit yourself to your intention and your actions not
the outcomes which may happen a generation after
00:32:29
you've after you've died you know that's something
out of your hands I think all that's very helpful
00:32:34
and very useful the only thing if you see it as
a toolkit um to be lent into when it's helpful
00:32:41
but the uh even that uh if you take it as a sort
of a you know almost like a spiritual way of life
00:32:48
can fall into the um problem of and therefore we
shouldn't have any anxiety therefore anxiety is
00:32:54
still somehow the demon but you know without
anxiety how do you know to change anything in your life how do you know to change your job
unless the current job is making you feel bad or
00:33:02
you know things have to become anxious and
things have to fall away in order for us to
00:33:08
move forward and grow and we you know you can't
do that without embracing anxiety to to an extent
00:33:15
as I've aged I've started to realize that the
kind of compass of my life is how I feel and
00:33:21
that's kind of what you've alluded to there that
we have this signal sometimes it comes in the form of anxiety sometimes it comes in the form of
fear but these are all like really useful signals
00:33:30
um do you resonate with what I just said there
in terms of like feelings that our body is giving us are the greatest signals for uh for us to
navigate versus like narratives versus like
00:33:39
what my mum wants or I end up in a working in the
city in like a suit and a tie because that's what
00:33:45
Society had an expectation of but I'm feeling
a signal inside which is I know depression or
00:33:50
I'm feeling you know I think those things are
very important to listen to I think we we do
00:33:55
live out stories very easily we do tend to uh
see things in terms of a narrative and that's
00:34:05
um it's an interestingly double-edged
thing because on the one hand
00:34:11
whether you know someone's written in or out of
a story it's become very important language and harm and all of those things have all got suddenly
very tied up and store the very notion of story
00:34:21
has become so important um taking authorship
of your story and so on but the other the other
00:34:27
side of that which you know I live out in my in
my job as a magician is that stories are just
00:34:34
stories you know if a magician fools
you with a trick in a way that works you
00:34:39
what you're being shown is that your story
that you're performing with the world isn't quite right like there's something you missed and
you always feel like you properly paid attention
00:34:47
you saw everything you you were taking in all
the information but it shows you that you've missed something that your Narrative of what
reality is isn't the same as the world um and uh
00:34:59
so that the the story side of things it seems
to be part of just our makeup but it's important
00:35:07
not to fall in love with it too much and to
realize that the nature of a story is that it
00:35:13
there's stuff you're excluding there's an
image isn't there of telling a story over
00:35:18
a campfire and a clearing and it's cozy um but
then there's all the forest in the darkness
00:35:24
with all the stuff that you're uh excluding
from that story and that's where the monsters
00:35:29
live and the nature of monsters that they come
and bite you and all the stuff that we don't include in a story whether it's the story we
tell about uh tell ourselves about ourselves
00:35:38
um or whether it's a story We Tell ourselves
about are Nation or our culture whether it's
00:35:43
a social thing or whether it's a private
thing the stuff that we bury and the stuff that we don't include within the narrative
because the narrative is really too simple
00:35:55
is goes deep like it's getting sort of gets buried
it gets buried in our own unconscious or it gets
00:36:02
buried in the untold story of whatever the thing
is and that's what comes back and bites us that's the the stuff that comes to own us in our own
lives and and in our uh you know in our societal
00:36:16
lives as well as the stuff that we've buried and
I think as you as you get older this is where that
00:36:22
those feeling signals come in I think it
becomes more and more important to pay attention to the things that we are banishing
from our stories you know what what do we
00:36:31
if we think about what makes us feel resentful
or what we Envy or you know what are what are those things because those are the things
that we're bearing somehow and I think
00:36:40
there's a shift in the second half of life and
a membership I'm a chunk older than you but um where we can disengage a bit with the the story
that we've been telling of how to move forward in
00:36:54
life that's all about a dialogue with the external
world that's where we're getting our cues from people showing us what we need to be successful
what we need to look or act in a certain way
00:37:04
that denotes moving forward in progress we do that
for the first half of life and it is sustained a little by this optimistic illusion that the child
the castles that we're chasing in the air that
00:37:13
will reach if we just you know a lot of Happiness
deferring going on and a lot of you know focusing
00:37:19
on the future and then something happens around
midlife where actually the project shifts to
00:37:24
taking the cues from within rather than
from the outside world and I think then
00:37:30
that's a good time for priorities to
shift from what will give me success
00:37:36
in the future to what is actually what might
bring pleasure and satisfaction and meaning
00:37:41
now in the in the present I think that's a useful
thing to lean into towards the second half of life
00:37:49
it was University that's um sort of sparked your
interest in hypnosis right yeah yeah yeah you saw
00:37:55
someone on campus doing Martin Taylor was doing
a show yes it was in my freshers week and uh
00:38:00
wow that was amazing and I I left and walked
back that night with a friend and said I'm going to learn how to do this and my friend
Nick said oh yeah so am I but I knew I meant
00:38:10
it I knew that I've never seen it before never
come across hypnosis I obviously heard of it but
00:38:16
um and it was a good show like it wasn't you
know embarrassing people are making them look stupid it was sort of just jaw-dropping um how
did you know that you meant it because I've had
00:38:25
that feeling in my life before where something
just connects yeah well I think it was the again those boxes were being ticked something
about performing something about control
00:38:34
uh I didn't really know it it just felt
like I want I I have to do that it's the
00:38:39
most amazing thing I've seen and it was uh it
was appealing in ways that just weren't really
00:38:46
um I suppose I hadn't really thought about
I hadn't thought about performing hadn't uh
00:38:52
but yeah I think I think that's what's
happening isn't it there's something it's resonating unconsciously it's something
that you kind of need and it was absolutely
00:39:00
no there was no doubt so I I bought borrowed
stole any books I could find on the subject
00:39:05
you probably just learn on YouTube nowadays but
it's probably a dodgy thing because you need to
00:39:11
you need to learn it the long way around so
that if you run into problems or if someone's
00:39:17
having a weird time when you're hypnotizing
them you can't be like fumbling around trying to Google what to do you know you need to
have the skills there and the wherewithal to
00:39:27
to deal with it so I definitely learned the
long way around uh yeah and then you became I
00:39:36
think from what I was reading pretty obsessed with
magic and hypnosis and yeah to the point that you
00:39:41
have a conversation with your parents and you tell
them that you're gonna yeah I remember saying to my mum I think I'm not going to be a lawyer I was
studying uh law in German I said I'm not going to
00:39:49
be a lawyer I'm going to be a um a magician I said
oh fine that sounds great sounds much more fun which actually made me stop and think okay hang
on probably being a bit probably being a bit rash
00:39:58
um what did they say so they were okay with it
totally yeah yeah yeah yeah that's what she said
00:40:04
she said oh that sounds great it sounds much more
fun it's nice isn't it I wrote them a letter at
00:40:09
the end of my first year saying because I
I saw all these other law students really
00:40:15
fretting about their exams because of what their
parents were going to think if they didn't pass and that had never occurred to me as a thing
that your parents would make you feel so I uh
00:40:24
wrote them a letter thanking them for for that
just for um letting me always do what I wanted
00:40:34
to do the only thing they ever put any pressure on
me to do is learn how to drive and I don't drive
00:40:39
I still don't drive that's still that drive it's
it's quite a common story I have to say that um
00:40:47
your obsession seemed to come from or at least be
driven by some kind of insecurity as in like the
00:40:56
reason why hypnosis initially resonated so much
was because it was giving you some it felt like
00:41:03
it might offer you something that you were looking
for or didn't have yourself yeah that's a story I hear also obsessions are though isn't that the
nature of them aren't your eyes it's just that
00:41:10
the level of obsession I saw when from that day
when you discovered hypnosis like getting all the books teaching yourself yeah and then even Beyond
University where you start working in restaurants
00:41:21
for many many years how long how long from
that first day when you saw hypnosis for the first time until um let's say before you the
TV stuff began how long is that sort of tenure
00:41:32
I think the tenure is about is about 10 years 10
years I think so let me think so I I graduated
00:41:38
94 and then uh by that point I was doing
the odd um hypnosis show for students I
00:41:50
oh actually the the first TV
show went out in December 2000. so I was into all it was about 10 years but also
included my University career but there was a
00:42:00
six-year period after University by which point
I was already doing it mainly for students when I was just then signing on or just about scraping
a living doing hypnosis shows but a lot more magic
00:42:12
I was doing magic in restaurants in Bristol and
then people would book me for their parties and um and I wrote a book for magicians which kind
of got me known within that world which that
00:42:23
then led to um being picked out for a TV
show that led to me getting a phone call
00:42:29
my name getting passed around in that world
so that's almost 10 years of practicing yeah
00:42:36
um without real any real money when you say
signing on for people that are in America signing out as in welfare I guess you'd call it yeah I was
I was I lived in this my student flat I stayed in
00:42:46
it was quite a nice flat I had all my books in it
and my parrot and uh that didn't cost me very much
00:42:52
and I just loved his life I would go out dreaming
up magic tricks during the day and then I would go out and do them in the evening and so I developed
my own sort of approach to it all and uh that yeah
00:43:05
that I I just remember thinking I've never had any
ambition at all and and I just remember thinking
00:43:12
if I if I can take us like a a cross section of
my life is everything in the right place like am I
00:43:18
I'd like to get up whenever I'd like to get up
I'd like to feel I can make my own decisions about what I do from day to day and I just had
a vague idea of those sorts of things that were
00:43:26
important to me and um and if anything didn't
feel right it'd be easy to sort of change and
00:43:33
that was all that was always how I was never
about looking forward into the future it was never about where do I want to be it was just
is this day this week sort of the life that I'd
00:43:43
like to be living and that's never changed um I
suppose the difference is is you get successful
00:43:48
you start to have people around you that are doing
those other jobs for you the grown-up jobs and you know I've got a manager and I've worked with
producers and all that kind of things so it's
00:43:57
not like that doesn't have to happen somewhere
along the line but it doesn't come from me I've um uh you can feel like a kid a little bit a bit
like a child in a world of grown-ups so I feel
00:44:07
that sometimes except now the grown-ups
are younger than me which is uh strange
00:44:13
um but also I think maybe that's a good way
to feel maybe that's a nice way to be if you can trust yourself from today yeah to the to
that young man in those restaurants in Bristol
00:44:23
doing the magic tricks is there a difference
in your level of happiness I think about this
00:44:31
I I I think it's about the same
but it's different I mean the the
00:44:37
um a bit like being a kid and playing on my own
most of my twenties were cut well my twenties
00:44:42
were sort of Fairly fairly solitary as well
and that's another template that settles in so
00:44:48
um that's again an easy place to go back to I
love my own company all my interests the things I love doing out of my job painting writing
and reading and they're all like solitary
00:45:00
things I said that's a comfortable place for
me so pardon me slide more of that then so it
00:45:08
slightly misses that but actually that's you know
I also aware it was that was lonely sometimes and
00:45:13
um you know I like being in a relationship too
so it's different had a different feel about it
00:45:20
um I think the freedom to just do what I wanted
to do and kind of um create this sort of world
00:45:29
for myself that was kind of lovely and that's
harder to do that as you grow up and you do have responsibilities and you know you're contributing
to a household and you've got a partner you've got
00:45:36
dogs and all of that it's not not quite as easy
so a childish part of me would kind of quite like going back to that but not really not really I
wouldn't really press a button to make it happen
00:45:45
it's just a a nice little sort of back of the head
dream as we probably all have maybe don't we a
00:45:52
slight kind of fantasy thing it would never really
live it out but it's just something nice about about that um it's almost like um I feel like
you were my head is like you know you're in
00:46:03
Bristol mining your own business enjoying the the
simple life and then they pulled you they ripped
00:46:09
you out of Bristol um you were really successful
so they put you on TV that was really successful and sometimes when people are successful they
sometimes forget and I think I've done this in
00:46:17
my life a few times kind of we forget to take the
moment of pause and consider how intentional this
00:46:24
journey and Direction and direction of travel is
kind of get pulled and dragged and then ends up
00:46:29
feeling a bit like you're throwing the coal in
the the steam engine of the train just to keep it moving has there ever been a moment of pause
in your life where you've you've gone do you know
00:46:38
what I need to take some time and just think about
what I'm doing and why I'm doing it because I've been successful and then I've climbed the ladder
people do that a lot in the corporate world they
00:46:44
become a good lawyer then they get promoted
then they're a partner and they go [ __ ] am I doing here yeah I think we drift towards the
things we're second best it's like you know the
00:46:52
the great teacher that becomes a Headmaster but
would have been a better teacher than uh that's an easy thing to do isn't it um and I think that
sometimes I think about oh it might be quite nice
00:47:01
to act I think I'm doing exactly that thing of
sort of going from being um someone who's really
00:47:08
good at what I do now and I just to sort of why
why would I want to tell that might be fun but like what a strange thing we naturally start to
drift towards things that we're not as good at
00:47:17
um uh I the only I would say when you said that
I was thinking of um the early the Early TV shows
00:47:26
when I was sort of which were very much a response
to David Blaine's success in the states I'm out doing you know mind reading tricks and things and
I I kind of felt like I'd grown out of it but I
00:47:38
was that was sort of the mode that I was caught in
and I definitely felt like I'm not really enjoying this and that led to a shift in the type of shows
I was doing so the I mean the last show I've done
00:47:50
is on Netflix called sacrifice if people have
no idea who I am and they've listened this far
00:47:57
um uh and generally what I've been doing
for the last decade or so with the TV shows is putting people through these kind of
Truman Show style big social experiments
00:48:07
often quite life or death situations they found
themselves in without realizing they're part of a show and what that allowed me to do was not
be the center of attention and the reason the
00:48:17
reason for it is actually apart from just my own
dissatisfaction with it but just magically if you
00:48:23
um if you can click your fingers and make anything
happen which is sort of what a magician does dramatically that's a very um unsound uh place
to be and this is you know pet and Teller the
00:48:35
yeah yeah so something that teller who apart from
being a beautiful magician is a wonderful thinker
00:48:41
as well he's spoken a lot about this that it's
actually very bad drama if you can make anything happen what we want dramatically are heroes people
that are struggling with the situation maybe they
00:48:50
are trying to get to point a but actually they
end up at point B um and his thoughts and my own
00:48:57
sort of sort of dissatisfaction I guess with that
first stage of my career led to this shift where
00:49:02
I could be in the background pulling the strings
but actually you're watching a real member of the public go through quite intense drama and that has
to be more appealing than somebody going hey look
00:49:13
at me aren't I clever which is sort of the bottom
line of what most magic is so I think that was a kind of semi-deliberate shift that came from a
moment of pause was it quite intentional for you
00:49:25
to take you know I've seen multiple documentaries
you've done where you're proving that magic or
00:49:31
the supernatural isn't real and again that's
super compelling because we would expect you
00:49:36
to be leaning into that and persuading us of the
supernatural whereas some of the most compelling
00:49:42
stuff I've watched you do whether you're
confronting like a psychic that's pretending to speak to the dead or I remember that reading
you did where the woman had pulled up outside of
00:49:49
the Mercedes and the minute on a mini yeah yeah
and you would you basically what was it you you
00:49:56
um you read her not her future you read into her
life I think it was that the psychic that I was
00:50:02
challenging had mentioned um for many years that
she drove a little red mini and she'd been really impressed by that but actually I've seen him pull
up his car uh right parked next to her in the car
00:50:11
park yeah but actually I think it's the opposite I
think the um there's a long tradition of magicians
00:50:17
pulling apart psychics and charlatans and I
think it's because we end up with a knowledge
00:50:22
of how those things work um and it goes right
back to Houdini and the seances and exposing
00:50:30
the fraudulent mediums in the dark you know it's a
long a long and probably before that but there's a long history of it um so I the only thing about
it is that you're if you're just going no this
00:50:41
is fake you're not being very entertaining and
by the nature of what those people do it's more
00:50:46
entertaining so they've kind of won the game so
I've tried to avoid making when I when I have
00:50:54
sort of you know attacked those areas rather than
just attack them and make it negative I've always tried to recreate something and make it more
interesting and and better while at the same
00:51:04
time saying I'm not really doing this so for
example there was a in one of the shows I did I had an audience on stage this was in Infamous
which was a previous Stage Show and I um
00:51:19
was giving them mediumship readings right so
I say just come up if you've lost somebody if
00:51:25
there's somebody that you would that you'd want
to get in touch with if you were to see a medium and a skeptical audience kind of like me right
because they're my audiences but so they'd come
00:51:32
up and sit down and I would start to give them
these readings and I would say and I'm getting a message from your auntie Jill is that right do
you have an auntie Jill that passed away that yes
00:51:40
and she's saying she's not saying anything I'm
just making this up but she's saying that you've got oh you've got a little dog called Bella
that she really loves is that right yes and
00:51:49
um and I'm lying to you but she said so I would
like pepper these like impossible information
00:51:54
I was giving with reminders that I was making it
up um and I just found that really really sort of
00:52:00
interesting and and um theatrically it was really
interesting and much more interesting than saying
00:52:05
these people are fake and prove it and if you can
prove it I'll give you a million dollars whatever so I've I've tried to find a more creative
approach to that do some people think you are
00:52:15
you are Supernatural in your powers some well I
was going to say actually after that about a week
00:52:21
into that show I came out there's a girl at stage
door said um I wondered if you could put me I say
00:52:27
girl which was you know you know in her 20s but
if you could put me in touch with my grandmother who's passed on and I said oh God I'm so sorry
I hoped it was clear from the show that I can't
00:52:35
really do it that stuff isn't real and she don't
know I know I know you can't really do it and it's not real but I just wondered if you could just
put me in touch with her like it was extraordinary
00:52:44
um how we kind of can balance these
things in our in our heads so yeah I
00:52:51
I I'm sure people believe all sorts of things
about me I think the the way of the way I look at it is a bell curve so at one end of the
bell curve it's people that think it's all
00:52:59
fake it's all Stooges it's all set up um and I
never use Stooges and that's not what it is and
00:53:05
at The Other Extreme people saying I'm psychic
and I won't admit to it which is also not true um and then there's this main swell in
the Middle where people sort of get it
00:53:15
um and that's really all you can I think take uh
responsibility for really there's always going
00:53:22
to be people at the far edges that will have uh
strange and extreme reactions um and then you
00:53:27
know I think there's a certain license on stage
which is different from TV if you're doing stuff
00:53:33
down the barrel of a TV if you're talking to
people at home there's a level of directness and honesty there whereas it feels like on
stage there's a kind of theatrical quotation
00:53:41
marks around the whole thing so I feel like I
do things on stage which I wouldn't do on TV
00:53:46
um so that changes it too it's quite an
interesting line sort of treading treading
00:53:53
that I kind of in the very early shows very early
TV shows it was very much like I'm I am doing this for real that's what I said this and these are not
tricks um and then once the show's realized once
00:54:03
we realized there was going to be some longevity
and there were going to be more shows it was important to me just to bring it back to a place
that was honest and kind of ambiguous as well
00:54:11
and to and I've enjoyed that now I like leaning
into the ambiguity ambiguity of what I'm doing
00:54:16
because again it it it means that you can
do more interesting stuff with it the you
00:54:22
know if there's a lesson in it about how we
see the world how the story We Tell ourselves
00:54:28
is not what's real how we mistake that story for
reality you know we mistake the limits of Our Own
00:54:36
um field of vision for the for the horizons of
the world you know if we if there's something in there to be said in something as childish
as magic if there's some something worthwhile
00:54:45
to be said it's much easier to say that if
you're not trying to make it about yourself has anything ever stumped you in terms
of the supernatural I you know I was
00:54:56
your work is predominantly based in Psychology
right so has there have you ever done anything and thought how the [ __ ] did that happen uh
two things come to mind one I was in a restaurant
00:55:06
in Bristol approaching a table which is always
excruciating um uh if people aren't interested
00:55:13
and I'm walking up with a deck of cards and I
sort of introduce myself and it's two businessmen
00:55:19
and one of them says oh no no thank you so much
and I said okay and as I walked away the other one went but Queen of Hearts 13 cards down and I
sort of laughed and walked away then went into a
00:55:28
corner and counted the guards down at the 13th
one down was the Queen of Hearts no idea how he did that if you are listening please get in
touch that's bugged me for 20 years and the
00:55:38
um the other thing was actually doing I did a
show called Miracle which is so this is also on Netflix it was a uh uh previous uh stage
show a few State shows ago and the second
00:55:49
half was healing it was like Evangelical uh
healing people being slain in the spirit and
00:55:56
um had no idea if it was going to work because
again very skeptical audience like not you know if you I've been to these events with these
big big name healers and of course people are
00:56:06
arriving expecting it to work and they've got a
certain amount of you know uh Readiness for it
00:56:11
which obviously helps and I didn't know if it
was going to work at all but it did and again I'm sort of undercutting it like I'm I'm doing
it and I'm creating these healings and inverted
00:56:21
commas for people in the audience but at the
same time I'm kind of undercutting it too but
00:56:27
um it was extraordinary I mean I remember in
the first week a woman came up and she'd been parallel she was probably in her 40s she'd been
paralyzed on one side of her body since she was
00:56:36
four or something in floods of Tears because
she could move her left arm for the first time
00:56:42
um and night after night things like that
sometimes as I imagine just you know someone
00:56:48
people with a bad back that felt better but
sometimes really quite dramatic things too and it was although I could explain it because
I knew what I was doing it was um what what
00:57:02
you're seeing is the psychological component of
suffering right like if you take an x-ray before and after nothing's happened nothing's changed
but that how that person is living out their
00:57:13
um Affliction how they live their relationship
to their suffering has that's been made to change
00:57:22
so what you're seeing it's just a mix of two
things that are going on there's certain there's
00:57:27
adrenaline which is a natural painkiller so
you make that you make the whole experience full of adrenaline um you know in the same way
of a you know lion walked into this room and
00:57:37
you'd previously stubbed your toe you'd run away
and you wouldn't feel the pain of your toe right because there's a bigger threat um that's just
adrenaline that's fine and then but this other
00:57:46
thing that which is maybe kick-started by the
experience of the adrenaline that you you've
00:57:51
this thing that you've lived out like presumably
this woman her arm had been fine for many years
00:57:57
but she hadn't she just continued to live as if
it wasn't you know and all the stuff that you build up around pain you know the the way people
respond to you so you there's a whole network of
00:58:06
um social aspects to it over protecting
something that doesn't need protecting anymore you know it's much more complicated
than simply the organic cause of of
00:58:15
um of your pain there's lots of other things
that sustain it and can keep it going Beyond really where it's useful so there she was having
this extraordinary experience she couldn't explain
00:58:26
um when really nothing had happened Beyond she
was just had been snapped out of something that
00:58:31
was that was sort of amazing and kind of
wonderful that I started to you know do
00:58:38
the thing of going maybe I could do this maybe
I could offer this as a show of like secular healing it'll only work on some people and you're
only dealing with relatively small percentages um
00:58:48
and I did start to think that and of course
that's where you start to go mad that's when you start to think you're playing God and and
then of course people because I when you go to
00:58:56
these events the big name healers I've seen Benny
Hinn and others um what you what you don't really
00:59:02
see when you watch those things on TV is that
there are in some of these big venues hospital beds that have been brought in there are people
with you know a kid with Down Syndrome that I
00:59:11
spoke to the mum and she'd she'd taken her son
to so many shows following around the country
00:59:17
um and things that just they're not going to get
they're not going to get healed by those kind of Dynamics um so that's an uglier sort of side of
that because people have become very dependent
00:59:28
on it are not going to get any help and then
there's the lack of any sort of follow-up you know there's plenty of infrastructure in place if
you want to donate but no infrastructure if you've
00:59:38
been in any way adversely affected by it and you
want help or if you've had a healing and now you
00:59:43
you'll don't know how to sustain that or what
you're supposed to do other than being told to give more money you know you know when um people
discovered through your TV work that you had this
00:59:54
skill and talent I imagine you've got lots of
approaches to use it for Less ethical reasons
01:00:00
because I I mean help me get the girlfriend back
help me close the deal or help me rob a bank a
01:00:09
little not um I suppose people would have to ask
that wouldn't have the the only I I remember I've
01:00:14
been asked by the FBI I've been asked by the
police really to help I mean it's never gone beyond that discussion because I just I mean
even you know there's plenty of businesses as
01:00:23
well but it's just it's not my world I feel
like a I'm an Entertainer I'm also quite um
01:00:29
introverted I don't quite have that thing of
like you know yeah let me get out there and and
01:00:37
a change the world or B I don't have to whatever
that thing is that I feel I could just apply this
01:00:44
to would it be anyone everything or the police
went out I don't know because it never went beyond them saying would you come and talk to us
about something and us getting back and saying
01:00:54
no it's not appropriate so I
don't know now I want to know I had a few words to say about one of my sponsors
on this podcast as the seasons have begun to
01:01:03
change so has my diet and right now I'm just going
to be completely honest with you I'm starting to think a lot about slimming down a little bit
because over the last couple of probably the
01:01:13
last four or five months my diet has been pretty
bad um and it started to show a little bit really over the last two months I go to the gym about 80
of the time so I track it with 10 of my friends in
01:01:22
a WhatsApp group and this tracker online and I'm
currently at 81 um so 81 of the days I've done a
01:01:29
workout in the last 150 days right so I'm going to
the gym about six times a week and so one of the
01:01:36
things I'm doing now to reduce my calorie intake
and trying to get back to being nutritionally complete and all I eat is I'm having the fuel
protein shake thank you heal for making a product
01:01:46
that I actually like The Salted Caramel is my
favorite I've got the banana one here which is the one my girlfriend likes but for me salted caramel
is the one we are lucky enough to have Intel
01:01:57
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01:02:45
when I think about the you know because there's
lots of people that might have studied hypnosis or they might have studied magic or sleight
of hand or whatever but they didn't end up on
01:02:56
the level you're on at the table you're at on the
shows you're on when you think about why you got
01:03:01
there I understand that 10 years of The graft
and I see that in a lot of people that sit here I see it in Jimmy Carr leaves University goes
and does all of these like [ __ ] gigs for 20
01:03:10
quid for years on years and years and years I see
it Lewis Capaldi the musician who went and played
01:03:15
in pubs in Scotland for years and years and years
and years and just absolutely loved it wanted to stay there I see the tenure bit which a lot of
young kids don't appreciate because we all want
01:03:23
it now and we want it for the wrong reasons
but what else was it about you the way your delivery your style that you think in hindsight
made you compelling oh it's a really difficult
01:03:35
one it's difficult it's difficult even if I knew
the answer would be hard to say it um I I think
01:03:43
I don't think it's that I think it's sort of it's
not quite that intentional I think you've probably grafted and done those things I can't speak for
Jimmy and others but probably just because you
01:03:52
really enjoyed them in and of themselves you
probably weren't thinking I don't do this if I get ahead I can secure this for myself probably
and if that is the case if you are just doing it
01:04:02
because you love it and that feels like in and of
itself what you're doing and there's no particular
01:04:07
need for a plan beyond that then you'll keep
at it you'll get very you'll get very good at it if if that's if that feels like all you need
in the moment anyway then why why wouldn't you
01:04:18
you know love it and put your all your passion
into it and get very good at it so that helped
01:04:24
um uh and then when things did sort of take off
a bit my manager also had a similar um ethos of
01:04:32
just sort of Slow Burn Slow Burn there was never
any sense of me you know being thrown at a public
01:04:38
or any sort of overnight success or anything like
that it was a very deliberate thing it just slowly kind of letting it get out there and that so that
was helpful um I think as I've I had a good team
01:04:51
around me um it's not like a one not really a
one-man thing there's always although I had had
01:04:56
my own experience for those 10 years of doing it
on my own once I got into the TV there was like
01:05:01
a little group of us which I'm sure is fairly
common and then I think I think what does help
01:05:08
is letting it grow up with me as I've as I've got
older I've just let the thing develop with me like
01:05:14
I don't really know what job to you know you asked
me before we started like how I'd refer to myself
01:05:21
I never really know I mean Mentalist I
think technically it's what I am but I mean I remember a couple of years ago I had the
book on happy happiness come out which is
01:05:28
essentially a book of Greek philosophy come out
the sake the same month as a ghost trainer for the thought Park and I do remember thinking
I don't know what I don't know what that is I
01:05:36
don't know what job that is that allows for those
two things it certainly isn't mentalism um so um
01:05:42
uh so yeah just allowing allowing the thing to
grow up with me and in terms of like you know I
01:05:49
occasionally you know people talk about the brand
and so on it's it's um it's a very helpful thing
01:05:55
I think just let it let the thing just be you and
not particularly be driven by the limitations of
01:06:02
what it when I first started I remember reading I
used to go on them magic discussion forums and so
01:06:09
on to see what magicians were saying about me
and there was a lot of like oh this isn't even mentalism like there's a certain type of magic
called mentalism and I wasn't quite doing that
01:06:17
I was doing stuff that wasn't 10 and they would
they would see that as a real sort of negative and I always thought that's why that's interesting
that that would bother anybody a who knows what
01:06:26
the word even means who cares and be that that
would that I wasn't somehow sticking within that
01:06:32
um so and that's another thing about playing on
your own isn't it and um you you or being if you
01:06:38
if you feel like an outsider as a kid I think
as you get older you start you value that that becomes like a bit of a superpower you you hang
on to that feeling of of um being an outsider
01:06:50
and you kind of use that so that's always helped
me and I've just followed my nose for what feels
01:06:56
fun and interesting and worthwhile and as I've
got older I've let those things grow with me and
01:07:01
um I find a lot of Life much more interesting than
magic Magic's quite a childish thing really so
01:07:08
it means that the stuff I find more
interesting about life I can bring
01:07:14
into magic you know I think if you've
got if you've got both feet in your craft or your art form or whatever if as in if
the thing is feels to you so huge and expansive
01:07:24
and all that you know you can't you're sort of a
bit overwhelmed by it you can't move it anywhere so if you've got one foot in that thing and your
other foot in the rest of Life at least you've got
01:07:33
some leverage then to take this thing that you
do somewhere interesting so maybe that's helped
01:07:38
as well I see that in your shows I see how your
other passions are riddled throughout the show
01:07:44
I remember watching a show in New York which
was just astounding it's funny because I think of myself as a smart person you know I think
I'll figure this out I'll he won't be able to
01:07:52
um make me look the other way or he won't be able
to control my narrative he won't be able to get me and every single time I've been to a shows
in London New York they're all just I leave in
01:08:00
silence yeah like because you're right that like
misdirection where you've got me thinking this
01:08:05
thing yeah and then I go what the hell like it's
this constant like disappointment with myself that
01:08:11
I'm not as smart as I think I am oh that's so nice
it's always like what can I there's you know 2 000 people trapped in a room with me what can I
what can I do with them it's always it's a lovely
01:08:19
feeling to start with and that the section on
when you have the painting I don't want to give anything away the painting is this in the show
that you saw in New York I believe it was New York
01:08:27
I've seen I've been to two London and New York one
with my family in London which was many years ago
01:08:33
about four probably I'd say four or five maybe
five years ago yeah and then the one in New York I think was was it wasn't pre-pandemic it couldn't
have been yeah it was just before the pandemic so
01:08:44
I'm painting a picture that someone comes up and
thinks of a famous person and I start to I do a painting and then it's upside down and I flip it
around at the end is that what you're thinking of
01:08:52
yes yeah yeah and the thing that I think stuns me
the most is how unbelievable you are as a painter
01:08:58
thank you very much and the fact you could do
that upside down you can paint such an incredible
01:09:04
image upside down it's also stunning um but that
clearly is describing what you've described there
01:09:09
where you've pulled in a love of painting yeah
I I think it's yeah I think all that's really uh
01:09:16
otherwise what's left you know just it's just hey
look at me aren't I clever and that's just not
01:09:21
you know that might be interesting
for audiences for a little bit um maybe once and then that's that's kind of it so
I I yeah I bring what I can to it and I just make
01:09:31
I make sure the shows are about something else you
know showman is about how the things in life that
01:09:36
are difficult are actually the very things that
we share which weirdly was written just before it was all due to go out before lockdown started
and it um was going to go out the first week of
01:09:46
lockdown and was assured about how the things
in life that isolated so actually the things that we all tend to have in common which then gets
played out literally for two years during lockdown
01:09:56
um so I've always tried to make them
about something else something of value
01:10:04
um and I don't think I I love magic obviously
but I don't think in and of itself it has
01:10:11
tremendous value as a childish way of impressing
people so it's what you what can you bring to it
01:10:16
that will give it value and then I think
then you're into a much more interesting um worthwhile area in your
books about happiness um
01:10:24
happy and a little happier one of the things that
surprises a lot of people is that you're not a fan
01:10:29
of goal setting and having spoken to you now I can
kind of understand because you have a much more
01:10:34
today this week do my best approach to life but
what's wrong with goal setting in your point
01:10:40
of view oh no there's anything wrong with goal
setting for short-term goals obviously you know
01:10:45
can be very useful it's it's the long-term stuff I
think we just get a bit hung up on it as a way of as a way of life you know a friend of mine
um it's a bit of a always being a workaholic
01:10:55
um and he certainly buys an account when he was
younger was made to feel that kind of needed to
01:11:03
achieve stuff in order to feel valued you know
which obviously is what most workholics will say
01:11:09
so he decided he was going to build up a company
and and sell it and become a multi-millionaire
01:11:14
and that was sort of the goal and then did
spent and all the time that I knew him he was building up a company and um sold it relatively
young and had a huge amount of money and then
01:11:26
she didn't know what to do with his life it was
miserable um and as she found himself going to a
01:11:32
support group with a bunch of similar millionaires
that had all made the same mistake and he'd sort
01:11:37
of missed the fact that actually it was the it was
the building up of the company that was is what gave him a meaning in his life that was that was
what was important and it's that old thing isn't
01:11:45
it of you know the you know the arrival at the end
of the journey is just it might just be taking a
01:11:51
coat off and putting your bag down that might be
all it is it's not necessarily the destination you know it's the you know it's the old thing
isn't it of the journey being what was important
01:11:59
but that was certainly he realized that um and
that really changed his life actually realizing
01:12:05
that what he thought was going to be important
wasn't important um plus how do we know what's going to make us happy that so many years before
you know it was so terrible at gauging that
01:12:15
um we lose flexibility depending how we set
those goals but we become too rigid in them
01:12:22
and it's like playing it's like playing a game
of chess schopenhauer talks about this I was a really good analogy that it's like starting
a game of chess deciding how you're going to
01:12:29
play and the strategy you're going to use and
you're how you're going to maneuver from the start there is this other thing playing which is
you know life Fortune stuff that's going to throw
01:12:37
get thrown back at you so how how can you decide
those things why do we want goals do you think
01:12:45
it gives us a sense of certainty well we need
we it's about it's about moving forward isn't
01:12:50
it we need to it's important because we need to
navigate through life and in the first half of life I think it's it's really important if you
didn't have that optimistic sense that you can
01:13:01
chase the castle in the air and somehow
get it just by setting those goals I think life would be very difficult I think
actually it's I think it's important I think
01:13:10
it sure has evolutionary value I think like it's
part of our impetus so it's not a bad thing really
01:13:17
but like all those things we just need to check it
and just see its limitations I think a story I see
01:13:27
the goals that I had as a story that gave my life
meaning when I was yeah younger the meaning was
01:13:33
kind of misunderstood it was I thought if I got
the Lamborghini then I'd be happy and important and worthy and shame would be alleviated but as
I as that failed me yeah I realized that um I was
01:13:45
gonna have to set about pursuing something else
well those are the two problems you either get the goal yeah you succeed in it and then what or
you don't and you've failed I mean you're sort of
01:13:57
and the very thing that's giving you pleasure the
very thing that's giving your life meaning which
01:14:02
is moving towards you know building up the company
or whatever it is you're doing yourself out of
01:14:07
your your purposefully and intentionally moving
to the point where you can remove that meaning
01:14:13
from your life have you developed any coping
mechanisms for adversity chapter three in your book A book of secrets is about the role friction
has the relationship it has with with happiness
01:14:23
and we've talked a few times about adversity but
is there any any sort of tools that you've learned that you might be able to impart that have helped
you to deal with when life throws [ __ ] at you
01:14:35
well the big stoic thing of how can this thing
be fine and it's not they don't exactly put it
01:14:41
in that language but that's the language I found
how could this thing be fine so first of all is
01:14:46
what's happened which side of the line is it is it
within my control is it my thoughts and actions or
01:14:52
is it out of my control is it something out in the
world of course it's always the latter is always something out in the world in which case how could
it be fine how could it how could that how could
01:15:00
it be okay that this thing is like that um and not
just to go oh it's fine it's fine it's not just
01:15:06
about saying it but to actually let that thought
sort of you know drip into the soul I find that
01:15:12
very helpful that's also partly just my
personality my partner's has a much more um sort
01:15:21
of anxious personality than I have and that stuff
doesn't help him at all um but it certainly helps me um another thing there's a great book by David
Destino called emotional success and I thought it
01:15:37
was great he was talking about motivation and how
a lot of our tools for motivation are very sort of
01:15:45
top down in the sense that you know well if
you do this for ten thousand hours or you put in an hour a day for a whatever um like a lot
of kind of work to change one habit and he's
01:15:56
talking about a bottom-up approach of there are
certain emotions that if you get them into place they naturally create a more motivational State
and he he's a psychologist and his when he talks
01:16:07
about motivation that the way he's tested this
is talking about where you value your future self
01:16:15
and what your future self needs more than what
you need in the moment right so if you take the example of are you going to study for your
exam are you going to go out and party well
01:16:25
the person that is going to not party and
study for the exam is valuing the needs of
01:16:30
that future self that's done well in the exam
more than the current self that sat there and would like to go out right so he's taking that
as the sort of the world of motivation we're
01:16:38
talking so he sets up various um experiments
to see what can you do to maximize people's
01:16:47
uh you know the value they place on that
future self and the three emotions um
01:16:53
again and again which help compassion gratitude
and having the right sort of Pride about what you
01:17:00
do a good Pride for the stuff that you do well not
the bad sort of Pride where you go well I'm good at this therefore I'm great at everything but just
having a a good sort of comfortable pride in the
01:17:09
stuff that you do well um so he would you know
experiments would be something happens outside
01:17:14
the room before the person comes in to do the
experiment that makes them feel grateful about something and then they come in and they have
to do a task that's impossible but how long do
01:17:21
they spend trying to do it and they'll spend 40
longer than somebody that wasn't primed to feel grateful before they came in and the Gratitude
has nothing to do with the experiment so
01:17:29
seemingly completely independent thing something
happens that make you makes you feel compassion
01:17:34
um and then you come in and you have to
do some task and you do it better or for
01:17:40
longer or whatever these sort of skills
are that the motivated person has more of um one of the questions was uh uh how many
so is dollars but how many dollars like if
01:17:52
you could have a hundred dollars a year from
now or x amount now what would that x amount
01:17:57
be that would balance it out and it's normally
17 like it really makes no fiscal sense at all
01:18:03
but most people will say okay I'll take 17 now
rather than a hundred right a year from now that
01:18:08
seems to be the number that people go for but if
you're primed to feel grateful if you're if you're asked the same question when you're in a state of
gratitude for something again totally unrelated
01:18:19
um it goes up to 31 that was that was a
great sort of uh by the by finding when they did the experiment it averaged out
of 31 in other words people were valuing
01:18:28
the future needs more than the need now
if that makes sense it could actually be
01:18:33
shown with something as simple as that gone
well I read a bit of chapter 12 of your book um was on exactly that and I actually said before
you arrived I sent it to my friends I sent that
01:18:41
one paragraph in your book about that that instant
gratification delay graph because it it when I say
01:18:47
it makes sense it makes absolutely no sense
yeah like I can't understand how gratitude how making someone feel grateful with a completely
unrelated incident would make them choose to have
01:18:59
um more money well we'll make them delay their
gratification in life it does exactly and I think
01:19:06
the reason why there's no kind of rational link
because it's a sort of it's like an emotional basis he's talking about an emotional heart that
then kind of spirals upwards because if you if you
01:19:19
if you find yourself acting more compassionately
which say just sometimes happens anyway right you
01:19:26
might just be feeling compassion you might
be feeling very grateful to somebody that then affects that person's behavior and then that
feeds back and affects yours and there's a certain
01:19:32
kind of upward spiral thing that happens
that definitely puts us in I think a more
01:19:38
just a better kind of state than say when we're
feeling the opposite of those things feeling hateful and resentful um so I do get it I I sorry
does that mean that people that are lowering
01:19:50
gratitude are more short-termist in their decision
making they probably binge foods that they
01:19:56
probably shouldn't have they probably make other
kind of Reckless decisions they probably shouldn't make because of their own state of emotions and
gratefulness and compassion perhaps I mean it
01:20:06
sounds like you'd have to ask him I don't know
I don't think he says that in his book but I can certainly imagine that again so if you're going
through your life feeling generally resentful
01:20:14
I can't imagine that person being very motivated
it's so interesting it answers actually a lot of questions that I've had with like friends of mine
where I've wondered why they make such short-term
01:20:23
missed decisions but I think there's an emotional
question that I should really be asking which is like how do you feel and we don't we don't often
pause to ask that we kind of assume that their
01:20:31
character is they are lazy or just stupid like
bad at decisions whereas really like go to work
01:20:38
on the emotions and you can change that which is
it's an it's a I thought it was a very uh yeah
01:20:43
very compelling way round of looking at it rather
than the normal top-down approach we come across
01:20:49
love uh-huh you described yourself as a
bit of a introvert and someone that likes
01:20:56
their own company yeah um sounds a little
bit like me what's your journey been like
01:21:02
with understanding love and then at 35 you
came out um what's that Journey been like
01:21:09
well I've had two long relationships and then
um a few little bits in between um and I think
01:21:18
there's definitely a lot of learning in the
first one that I think I've now brought to the
01:21:24
second one of course that's what we do is it's
next you have another relationship you bring all those lessons that you can't you can't change them
and you're in one but you can you get to start
01:21:32
afresh the next time um we're quite different as
well it's not like we're we're not similar people
01:21:37
at all I'm I have that sort of a bit of emotional
Detachment that I can easily go to he is very
01:21:44
um engage and as as uh people the little on
the anxious side tend to be very sort of hyper
01:21:52
Vigilant about stuff so you know packing to come
to London to do this shows two very very different
01:21:58
worlds always leads to argument I'm kind of travel
light and here's another but we might even do this we might need this we might need this bags and
bags bags so uh we see each other sometimes you
01:22:10
know as caricatures of ourselves because because
we're quite different in those in those ways my
01:22:16
kind of stoic uh whatever will seem to him just
sometimes just to be laziness or not really
01:22:26
um not engaging with something not that thing
not being not taking it seriously and for me his
01:22:32
his what I see is uh anxiety or impatience to him
is a strong sense of justice he has a real strong
01:22:40
sense of justice something's not right he'll
want to go and sort that thing out and fix it um
01:22:48
and I think love for me is
allowing that other person
01:22:54
to be another person we'd probably start off
our relationships just projecting everything
01:23:00
we need onto a person and we barely do them the
service of you know allowing them to exist as an
01:23:06
independent creature we sort of we just want
them to be the thing that we want them to be um and I think if relationships are going to have
any longevity at some point that has to shift into
01:23:17
actually this person is a mystery and I might
spend the rest of my life trying to get to know this person that that's I think that's okay and I
think that's also the same within ourselves in the
01:23:26
parts of ourselves that we're we're um alienated
from again the things that we just put outside of
01:23:32
the story um the the that sense of what the other
is of the great mystery you know it's there in
01:23:39
Magic it's there in within ourselves the sides of
us that you know we need to live more comfortably
01:23:44
with and in our relationships as well here is a a
great mystery that we sit down with every day and
01:23:50
have breakfast with and talk to and misunderstand
and disappoint and occasionally delight at each
01:23:57
other and and it's it's uh you know it's kind of
wonderful and sometimes it's hard work and and uh
01:24:06
but I think seeing your partner somebody who
could spend a lifetime getting to know uh
01:24:15
and as a source of Wonder and mystery I
think is a that's a very helpful thing one
01:24:20
of the messages that I took from that is about
expectations and being really conscious that you keep your expectations in check because
when you don't frustration and unhappiness
01:24:30
um might Prevail and I think about this a lot
with my partner who's the complete opposite I consider myself to be like very logical I need
to I need to understand everything I'm very
01:24:39
um maybe scientific in my viewpoint
whatever the opposite of that is she is and so you can find yourself in conversations
where the basis of reality you're conversating
01:24:49
from is completely different yeah she will
believe that that a rock has energy and that yeah and I will obviously not believe that but
we're completely opposites but that's also why
01:24:59
it works because there's not an expectation
that we become the other person she will tell me something she knows I don't believe and at the
end of her saying it she will not wait for me to
01:25:09
nod and agree yeah because she knows it doesn't
believe and that's fine yeah and vice versa and it's that's what when you sing except that
we're two different people yeah actually being
01:25:18
able to do that and her not trying to change me
into like a spiritual whatever me not trying to turn her into a scientist yes allows for the
upside of that difference which is like I can
01:25:27
Marvel at the world she lives in and go oh that's
interesting I'm gonna try that you know what I mean and also I think a big Allied to that is to
think of not which is such a a guy thing to do
01:25:35
isn't it it's not fixing yeah not um most of our
frustrations come from the fact we just haven't
01:25:42
really been heard or seen or understood during the
day so we've been bashing our heads against some
01:25:47
wall we come home and hers yeah exactly exactly so
we they come home and then just offload this stuff
01:25:57
and when because I I know I do it when my partner
does this to me but he sort of offloads all this
01:26:02
frustration and I'm sure you do it too it sounds
like you do is to go into this mode where we're saying well it's okay it's probably just this and
why don't we think about it in this different way
01:26:10
and we're just doing exactly the same thing
they've had all day we're just not hearing
01:26:15
um uh but it's just not it's not an intuitive
thing is that you sort of that is such a such
01:26:22
an easy mode to go into um Darren are
you happy that was the name of your book
01:26:28
I think so yeah I think I think
as I've got all the happiness is it was easy to say I remember being asked that
when I was single for a while um by Hugh Grant
01:26:43
of all people we were sat opposite each other at
dinner and talking about happiness maybe I was writing the book at the time I don't know and um
he said are you are you happy though and it was he
01:26:54
was said it in a sort of a mood of like no one's
really no one's really happy are they um and maybe
01:26:59
just the way he asked it but I said yes and said
it very confidently and felt it very confidently and he didn't think he didn't know what to make of
that uh or maybe he just didn't believe it and now
01:27:10
when you ask I still feel it's yes but I think I
think things are more complicated I think there's a more complicated in relationships I've got older
um 51 and I think I think that's a good sort of um
01:27:26
you know I said things things just change the currents of Life shift a little
bit so I am but I uh I think it's
01:27:37
it's a I don't think it's about happiness first
of all I think it's about meaning and it's about
01:27:42
you know things in life that are bigger than
you and what you how you throw yourselves into those things which is what gives religion its
meaning you know that that need for Transcendence
01:27:51
or finding the thing that's bigger than you we
all need it somewhere because if you don't have meaning in your life that's that's when you have
problems not really happiness is sort of um a very
01:28:00
difficult thing to pin down but uh and we can be
unhappy but it's when we when we feel meaningless that it's that it things get bad um it's a bit
of a [ __ ] question isn't it are you happy
01:28:12
in many respects yeah you know what is it you
know things that used to mean the story of a life
01:28:18
it was something you couldn't say about anybody
until they were dying and look back over their whole life you know it's meant our relationship
with God we weren't even supposed to be happy on
01:28:26
this Earth because of uh you know because it
was something that we could only have through Union with with God it's meant so many things over
the ages but now it does just sort of mean a mood
01:28:36
um uh which is uh is it makes it sort
of a difficult one to answer but I think
01:28:44
I think Life Is Life is good it's just interesting
and sometimes difficult but you know ultimately
01:28:50
good way I think life is full of [ __ ]
questions and in some respects it's like a form of misdirection the fact that I yeah
we never supposed to reflective questions are
01:28:59
actually valid because if I'd said what number
is Fork hmm you it mean you would say that's not
01:29:04
a valid question but because are you happy or
the questions like have you found your passion there's an assumption in there that there's
one of them there's one passion you have to
01:29:12
go searching for it yeah all in loaded into
the question and nobody nobody when you ask those questions pauses to think of whether the
question is valid and then the the frustration
01:29:20
we encounter when we can't properly fit into a
invalid question I see I see that causing so many
01:29:26
young people so much pain because culture pops
up these like questions you've got is it love
01:29:31
well is it love I mean it alludes to a yes or
no answer and then I have to know that your
01:29:40
definition of love what you mean by that because
as I was saying I love peanut butter I love my dog I love my mum and it's all very unhelpful like
this is why I love going back to what you said the
01:29:49
star like how'd you feel nice open question which
allows for a bit more maneuvering yeah I think
01:29:55
people are tormented by these um questions yeah
yeah your show there's nothing like it that exists
01:30:02
in the event space really on TV I mean I prefer
doing it seeing it in person because obviously
01:30:08
cameras can create certain Dimensions but seeing
it in person just bends the mind because it
01:30:15
makes almost anything seem possible in life I'm
talking about sales and ambition and creativity and Imagination if that's possible then anything
can become possible and I think that's a cause of
01:30:25
great inspiration um so I would just employ anyone
that's listening to this if you're looking for a
01:30:31
once in a lifetime very unique experience that
you can't get anywhere else they've got to go
01:30:37
and see the show they've gone I really mean that
I'm not just that you didn't tell me to say this I really need you there you know yes yeah you'll
never know yeah but thank you but I really really
01:30:45
mean that it's there's nothing like it so great
day idea great family idea so I'm definitely going to come what can I expect that's different
from the other shows that I've been to well it is
01:30:56
it's got a real heart to it this one you get all
the feels as some people say um it's uh it's I
01:31:04
it's also got I mean it's got the best if this is
all right to say the best reviews of anything I've ever done in 20 odd years which is nice to know
because it is such a personal show so that's a
01:31:14
um that's a lovely thing that has been received so
well um I do swear the old the audience to secrecy
01:31:22
um so it's hard to go into details um other
than yeah it is about the things that connect
01:31:27
us as people and then how the difficult things
in life are the things that join us up it's also show based on audience participation like like
they all are and I should say I I would hate the
01:31:37
idea of being dragged up on stage so I throw out
frisbees to choose people which means it's the easiest thing to hand to the person next year if
you you know if it lands on your lap and you don't
01:31:44
want to get involved so there's no pressure to
get involved at all but it is a it's a big show of audience participation and it's it's more than
More Than People expect I hope we always try and
01:31:54
make the show properly over deliver give you give
you more than you thought it would I'm so excited
01:31:59
I genuinely really excited thank you so much for
your time we we have a closing tradition on this podcast we're the last guest asks a question for
the next guest and they don't know who they're
01:32:08
leaving it the question for oh fantastic I get
to see it when I open the books excuse me if I take a while to read the handwriting um oh this is
for me right yes great oh God okay top or bottom
01:32:20
I can imagine I wonder if that was the question if
you could only speak with call C touch four people
01:32:31
for the next four years who would they be
I feel this is quite a yeah boring answer
01:32:39
but it's honest so my mom uh partner probably
number two really good friends Sharky and Stephen
01:32:49
I'd have to include Jenny in there somewhere so
maybe they could alternate weekends or something um yeah friendships really mean a lot to me now
as I get as I get older I'm not old but you know
01:32:59
getting older I have a really I think it happens
something like on your 50th birthday or something suddenly your friendships really mean a huge
amount to you um and they didn't before they
01:33:10
always did but just not in such a conscious why
what changes why I don't know it's just a real
01:33:16
real sentimental like valuing of them Nostalgia
as well like really um I just find myself just
01:33:25
that was kind of yeah sentimental sort of uh
leanings um and my friends just suddenly they've
01:33:33
obviously always meant a lot to me because I've
been my friends but suddenly even more so I love
01:33:38
meeting up with people I haven't seen for years
now I love doing that much more than I used to
01:33:43
um so yeah I'm that's it Mom partnering
up a couple of really good friends um uh that doesn't include my dog is I forgot I
didn't forget I had two dogs but I have a clear
01:33:56
favorite which is uh unfortunate for the other one
I was only thinking of doodle and I forgot about
01:34:02
humbug it's okay I said people so yeah so sorry
that's not a very clear answer but lovely question thank you so much for your time thank you for
the inspiration thank you for coming and doing
01:34:10
this you're someone that I've been honestly quite
obsessed with since for the last 10 years watching on TV watching on Channel 4 coming to your shows
and stuff so it feels like a real honor to get
01:34:17
to speak with you and as I said I read your book
in the jungle it was very much the basis in the jungle you didn't say that yeah yeah so I took
it took a brief I took a suitcase out to the
01:34:25
jungle and I was I wanted books on happiness and
yours was on the Shelf so I took it was it that one was a happy it was the yellow one yeah happy
um and I'll be honest I this sounds like because
01:34:34
I bought it not knowing it was you interestingly
yeah yeah and then when I saw I got to the jungle
01:34:39
and I saw the name on it I couldn't I had to
Google to check it with you because I couldn't believe you'd written a book on happiness and you
get this a lot don't you yeah I do and a while
01:34:48
back I got a um the only time I've ever dropped
my own name trying to get a restaurant table um in SoHo and I did and I got the table
suddenly we have felt ah I pulled that off
01:34:58
went in and then at the end of the meal the
waiter said would you mind signing one of your books so yeah of course and he came back
with angels and demons oh [ __ ] it's fantastic
01:36:23
[Music]
