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There are worship groups that worship AI because it's got some of the qualities
00:00:05
we normally associate with God. And some people welcome this and say this is the
00:00:10
way we should go. But the danger is we treat these human robots as if they're
00:00:14
conscious beings. This is a seriously important thing and I do feel that the Christian faith has a great deal to say
00:00:21
about this >> and it's fascinating to me that you are very religious. You believe in God
00:00:25
because typically I think that mathematicians lean more towards atheism. The great pioneers of modern
00:00:32
science were all believers in God. And I've interrogated myself about its truth
00:00:37
for over 70 years. I've made myself totally vulnerable. And I found that Christ offers me something nobody else
00:00:44
offers me. Peace in my heart. The peace of knowing that I have real forgiveness.
00:00:50
Things like for example, God has met people even in death row. And I never forget looking through the door for
00:00:56
Russian security death row. I went up to the door and a chap came over and looked
00:01:01
at me. He killed 12 women and he said, "I deserve to be here." And then his
00:01:06
face just bursted into what I can only describe as a ghastly smile. And he said, "I met Jesus here and he forgave
00:01:12
me." >> So on this point of forgiveness with the serial killer be forgiven and allowed
00:01:17
into heaven and then how do you know that this thing you've committed yourself to is true? So I have had
00:01:23
several experiences enough to tell me look this stuff is real. Okay. So this is super interesting to me. My team
00:01:34
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team, everyone here to keep this show free, to keep it improving year over year and week over week, it is just to
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hit that subscribe button and to double check if you've hit it. Only thing I'll
00:02:05
ever ask of you. Do we have a deal? If you do it, I'll tell you what I'll do.
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I'll make sure every single week, every single month, we fight harder and harder
00:02:12
and harder and harder to bring you the guests and conversations that you want to hear. I've stayed true to that
00:02:16
promise since the very beginning of the D of Sio and I will not let you down. Please help us. Really appreciate it.
00:02:22
Let's get on with the show. >> John Lennox. >> Yes. >> You've published over 70 peer-reviewed
00:02:31
mathematical papers, co-authored two research texts at the um Oxford Mathematical Monograph series, and
00:02:37
you've really become a pioneer in many domains through your career. But for anyone that doesn't know you, what is
00:02:43
the most important context they need to understand the reference points, experience, education that you're
00:02:49
pulling on that that is going to inform all of the subjects we talk about today?
00:02:54
>> I mean, I've written a number of papers. I got a certain amount of international
00:02:59
recognition. I chaired Oxford and all the rest of it. But I think the real value of that has been the training and
00:03:08
logic really saying that mathematics works. The fact that it works is for me one of the strongest evidences that this
00:03:18
is what I call a word-based universe. We can use mathematics to describe things about how the universe works. Thinking
00:03:26
God's thoughts after him, Kepler's famous statement. But also we've lived
00:03:31
to see a biological revolution where we discover biology is word-based as well with the human genome. And that to me
00:03:40
resonates with the explanation given in both the old testament and the new language of
00:03:48
John's gospel. In the beginning was the word. >> I um I don't know a ton about the bible.
00:03:53
I do come from a religious family. So do with um right >> we grew up as Christians. I think I I
00:03:58
lost my faith faith at about 18 years old cuz you know me and my my brothers are extremely good at maths. They're
00:04:04
very rational thinking maybe to a fault and I think maybe I am a little bit too.
00:04:10
>> I am too. >> You are. This is why I find it so fascinating cuz you know typically the
00:04:14
scientific community lean more towards atheism and typically I think that mathematicians lean more towards
00:04:21
atheism. Just to sense check if that's true or not, we'll throw the numbers up
00:04:24
on the screen. So I I find that to be a fascinating conversation which I'm looking forward to have with you today.
00:04:30
>> Interestingly, you wrote this book and the word AI is on it. It says God, AI,
00:04:37
and the end of history. Why are you so concerned, dare I say, about artificial intelligence as a leading pioneer in ma
00:04:48
maths and sort of philosophical thinking? Well, because I'm interested in the bigger picture, anything that
00:04:57
raises questions about the nature of human identity. And I was first struck by the drive for artificial
00:05:08
general intelligence. It's really become one of the it looks as if it's the prime
00:05:12
motivation of people like Sam Alman and so on. It is really hitting the headlines. But within that there's the
00:05:21
notion of transhumanism. >> What does that mean? >> The idea is that we go beyond the human.
00:05:28
One of our most famous astronomers, Royal, he put it this way. He says in the distant future, it won't be organic
00:05:37
brains, it'll be machine brains. And he seriously believes, as do a number of
00:05:43
scientists who are not science fiction authors, that there will be some kind of merger between humanity and machines to
00:05:52
have a transhuman, something that's beyond the human and something that is, they hope, super intelligent, got all
00:06:01
the human properties and much more. Now, one of the people who is spreading that
00:06:08
kind of transhumanist vision is the Israeli historian Yuval Noah Hari. And he's written a book called Homodos, the
00:06:18
man God. And that really made me prick up my ears because I know enough about this book here, the Bible, to realize
00:06:27
that the drive for humans towards selfdeification is >> selfdeification. Yes, making themselves
00:06:35
gods. And you see it all through history. The ancient Babylonian emperors were regarded as gods. The Roman
00:06:43
emperors started calling themselves gods and all the rest of it. And what Harari
00:06:48
says is the 21st century has two big purposes. Number one, to solve the problem of physical death as a technical
00:07:00
problem >> to solve death. >> Yes. Solve death. Physical death is in
00:07:04
his view technical problem and we'll solve it. The second agenda item and he
00:07:09
calls them agenda items of the 21st century is to increase human happiness by bioengineering,
00:07:18
cyborg engineering, mechanical implants, all this kind of thing and turning humans quote into gods with a small G.
00:07:29
In other words, this is the drive for a super intelligent human. We've only got
00:07:35
started. And his point is, and from his atheist perspective, one can understand it immediately. Evolution, unguided
00:07:44
natural processes have brought us to this point. Now, we're going to take it
00:07:48
into our hands and we're going to engineer humanity into the future very rapidly to approach this superhuman
00:07:58
thing. Now I hear that and I see that but I see that as huge implications for one of the fundamental teachings
00:08:09
that's behind I would argue western civilization and that is the notion that humans like
00:08:20
us are made in the image of God as rational moral beings. Now, I got into this because some Christian leaders
00:08:29
wanted to have a conference on AI and they wanted it introduced from someone who knew something about the teaching of
00:08:38
the image of God in Genesis and who had a scientific background and who could perhaps begin to lead them in to what
00:08:46
was going on in the AI field around. And once I got into it, I realized this is a
00:08:53
seriously important thing because we haven't got to artificial general intelligence yet. That's still a pipe
00:09:01
dream, but it's improving all the time, but we've got far enough. that is to
00:09:08
what's called narrow AGI which most of the stuff that works is and that is posing a threat to human
00:09:18
beings at all kinds of levels and I began to see that that was seriously important for everybody to take on
00:09:25
board. So I wrote two books, one 2020 called uh 2084 is the title of my book, artificial intelligence and the future
00:09:35
of humanity and then the publishers asked me to update it in 2024. So there's a second edition twice as big
00:09:45
and it is my main work on AI. That is not that is a work on the book of revelation with reference to AI. The
00:09:52
other is directly going into AI, pointing out its values which I think are immense particularly in medicine but
00:10:01
pointing out its dangers which I think are immense for bringing about a state in the world that none of us I think
00:10:09
want. >> So let me just give some definitions then. >> Yeah, sure. >> You use the term narrow AI.
00:10:14
>> Yes. Um, my definition of that is, and I'll put something on the screen for
00:10:18
those of you watching, is AI that's focused on solving a very particular problem. So, AIs that might be able to
00:10:24
diagnose lung cancer or that do some sort of um biometric data on your Apple Watch, very focused on solving a
00:10:32
particular problem. AGI is artificial general intelligence which is what's being built at the moment and all the
00:10:38
big AI companies are in a race to accomplish which is a machine that could do any intellectual task a human can
00:10:44
faster than any human um and would be super intelligent. So you know maybe one way to think about it it would have a
00:10:51
PhD in everything that's a very fair summary. narrow AI system does one and only one thing that
00:11:00
normally requires human intelligence. AGI does the lot and more. You wrote this book 2084. You highlighted in there
00:11:10
some of the concerns that you think are being overlooked in this race for AGI at
00:11:15
the moment. >> Well, they're not overlooked by everybody. There is huge concern.
00:11:20
There's been a very interesting book published not long ago by Karen How. Oh,
00:11:24
she was young. She's fantastic. >> Well, there you are. And she has got
00:11:29
some very interesting metaphors, the pursuit of the machine God, which I think is a brilliant summary of what's
00:11:36
going on. And I found it very illuminating because she's obviously got very close to the the major operators in
00:11:44
this. But if I step back from it, I look at AI like a knife. A good knife. You can use it for surgery or you can use it
00:11:53
for murder. And that leads us into it immediately. AI narrow brilliant for picking out a
00:12:02
terrorist in a football crowd. Also brilliant for suppressing a minority in China and bringing in a totalitarian
00:12:10
state through social credit systems and all the rest of it. And in a way, we're
00:12:17
sleepwalking into a future where we are gradually seeding control and information and data all the time which
00:12:29
could be used by bad actors against us. And this is the problem. >> I I really this question of um what it
00:12:36
means to be human in a world of AI, I think has been really front of mind for a lot of people. like where do we live
00:12:42
or exist or find our purpose in a world where theoretically these super intelligent systems will reach AGI which
00:12:49
means they're more intelligent theoretically than any human on Earth but at the same time you've got these
00:12:55
other um advancements in technology like humanoid robots >> where these humanoid robots there was a
00:13:00
live stream I've talked about a few times and I'll just throw it up on the
00:13:03
screen really quickly that shows last week a humanoid robot working on a production line for eight days straight
00:13:09
and they show it up against a human being and it beats the human being on the production line because it doesn't
00:13:15
need to sleep. It just needs to be charged for a couple of hours to full power. And so you combine these two
00:13:21
forces, super intelligence and the disruption, you know, you can think of it like one is disrupting
00:13:28
this thing here, the brain and the intelligence within the brain. And then the other technology that's emerged at
00:13:34
the same time is disrupting my muscles and my mechanics and the two come together to make voila.
00:13:43
>> Absolutely. So you face joblessness at all kinds of levels and people are only
00:13:49
going beginning to realize the implications of that and they're not just low-level repetitive jobs as high
00:13:55
level jobs like lawyers and there's a deepseated ethical problem running through all of
00:14:02
this and it's a very simple one. It's that technology advances much faster
00:14:07
than the ethics that's needed to underpin it. And the difficulty is the people that
00:14:13
have all the power will say, "Well, we need some ethical control of all of this, but we need to get on with the
00:14:19
research to make it safe for you. So, let us get on with it." And you can be a
00:14:25
bit skeptical about the motivation there. It's a colossal power grab. And I do feel that
00:14:34
uh the Christian faith has a great deal to say to this arms race if you like the
00:14:42
power that is being forced in to having a technology that becomes the ultimate source of truth. Now those two concepts
00:14:52
power and truth clashed centuries ago in a very famous trial and it's the trial
00:14:58
of Jesus. And I used to wonder a lot, you know, why is there such detail about the trial of Jesus until I realized what
00:15:07
it was about? Jesus was put on trial for political terrorism to put it in modern
00:15:13
terminology. He was a threat to the Roman power base. And Pilate, the governor at the time, put him on trial
00:15:22
and conducted the trial himself, which was most unusual, and said, "Are you a
00:15:27
king?" And Jesus looked at him and said, "Well, not in the sense you mean. To
00:15:34
this end I was born, and to this end I came into the world that I would bear witness to the truth." And Pilate
00:15:41
famously responded, "What is truth?" and went out and declared Jesus innocent of
00:15:46
the charge. And then he said to him just a bit later, "Don't you know I have
00:15:52
power to crucify you?" And Jesus quietly said, "You would have no power against
00:15:58
me unless it been given to you from above." So there's one of the most famous confrontations between power and
00:16:05
truth. And that statement that Jesus made, I have come to bear witness to the truth. I regard that as the main
00:16:14
motivation for my life. I'm trying to bear witness to truth as I see it at all
00:16:19
kinds of levels in my own limited way. And that's what bothers me about AI. It's a reductionist. We're reducing
00:16:28
people to machines. And you said to me a few moments ago that flagged up a thing
00:16:35
in my mind that's very important. We need to be very clear what AI is and what it isn't. This is a machine.
00:16:44
Machines do not think. Machines do not have quailia. They do not understand the redness of red. They do not experience
00:16:54
emotion. They have no consciousness. And you see, I believe that the genius of God is that he's made you and me and
00:17:04
he's connected in us consciousness and intelligence. The machines are not conscious, but they
00:17:14
simulate intelligence. And the experts are very clear that they're not trying
00:17:20
to construct intelligence for a very simple reason. They have no idea what consciousness is from a scientific point
00:17:26
of view, but they're trying to simulate intelligence and go as far as they can.
00:17:33
And therefore, the danger is we anthropomorphize everything. We treat them as if they're conscious beings. And
00:17:42
we need to step back and realize that we are conscious beings. And that gives us
00:17:47
a supreme dignity and value to reduce ourselves to merely machines or on the other hand merely animals is to demean
00:17:57
our value. And then where are you going to get value from? >> I've got a quote here that's um linked
00:18:03
to what you just said. It's from Uvel Noah Harrari who you mentioned. He says,
00:18:07
"Humans are now hackable animals." >> Yes. >> The whole idea that humans have this
00:18:11
soul or spirit and they have free will and nobody knows what's happening inside
00:18:15
them, that is over. And Sam Alolman said, "The most successful founders do not set out to create companies. They
00:18:23
are on a mission to create something closer to a religion. And at some point, it turns out that forming a company is
00:18:28
the easiest way to do so." And lastly, a former Google engineer said, "What is
00:18:33
going to be created will effectively be a god. It's not a god in the sense that
00:18:37
it will will make lightning or cause hurricanes, but if there is something a billion times smarter than the smartest
00:18:44
human, what else can you call it?" >> It's odd. Thank you for quoting that
00:18:49
because I was going to quote it to you. the the Saballet's point about about
00:18:54
making a religion and that is what is happening and people have pointed out the obvious here you have a system even
00:19:01
now that has got some of the qualities we normally associate with God it appears to be omnisient you can ask it
00:19:09
any question it is omniresent through the internet etc etc and therefore already there are worship groups to
00:19:19
worship AI high. And some people welcome this and say, "Well, this is the way we
00:19:24
should go." And other people say, "Just wait a moment. There's something very
00:19:29
strange going on here." And in the end, you are bowing down to something that in
00:19:35
the end is idolatrous because it is less than God. But it's very tempting to do
00:19:41
that. >> I mean, people are basically praying to it now. They're confiding in a in a way
00:19:45
that they might have. >> Absolutely. Doing it. And you know, I'm fascinated by this. I've never seen one
00:19:51
of these before, but I like it. And I tell you why I like it. >> So, for people that can't see what we're
00:19:56
doing, it's a brain. >> It's a brain, and it's got two halves.
00:20:01
And one of the people who've influenced my thinking about AI a lot is uh Dr. Ian McIchrist, the author of
00:20:11
this fascinating book called The Matter with Things. And he has studied the fact
00:20:16
that this brain has two hemispheres, >> two halves. Both halves are involved in
00:20:22
almost every cognitive event. But the two different halves have different ways of paying attention to the world. One is
00:20:32
narrow focus, the left side of the brain, and the other is the big picture. And he says what has happened
00:20:38
historically in the west is for the last five or so hundred years we have concentrated on the narrow rationalist
00:20:47
reductionist left side of the brain and we've forgotten the right side that contextualizes everything. So that quote
00:20:57
we now find ourselves in a world where we understand how almost everything works but we know the meaning of
00:21:04
nothing. And what he calls for is to open this sphere up. And of course that includes to beauty, culture, art, music,
00:21:15
and religion. Step by step, he appears to be creating more room for God because God makes sense of the space he feels is
00:21:27
very necessary to fulfill. And I find that absolutely fascinating. And you probably noticed it too. the number of
00:21:35
intellectuals who are step by step taking the Christian faith more seriously as giving a rational account
00:21:43
of what's going on that makes very big sense of the big picture >> what is going on in society because it
00:21:50
does feel like more and more people have these sort of existential questions about meaning and they might be turning
00:21:56
to Christianity or Islam or other but what is from a 30,000 foot perspective happening to us which is making us ask
00:22:03
some of these questions And for you know younger generations it might be spirituality however they
00:22:08
define that but there's certainly a macro picture here of something happening.
00:22:12
>> Oh there is I agree with you entirely and I think it's because we've had
00:22:17
pushed at us for too long a very reductionist view of the world. It's nothing but physics and chemistry. It's
00:22:24
nothing but this is that. And people rightly feel it's too small a world to live in. They're looking to break out of
00:22:31
this. Isn't there a bigger picture that can make sense of my world and make sense of my life and giving some
00:22:39
meaning? Because if you reduce everything, it ends up in a black hole of meaninglessness.
00:22:46
And that's one of my uh top reasons for not being an atheist because it destroys
00:22:52
rationality by almost by definition because it tells me that my brain which does all the thinking it's not my mind
00:23:01
it's connected and those are two different things and that's another big
00:23:04
story but this is the end product of a mindless unguided uh process and I have fun with
00:23:12
scientists you know sometimes I ask them uh about the brain and how it arose and
00:23:18
they tell me something like that and I said and you trust it. Tell me if the computer that you use every day if you
00:23:27
knew it was the end product of a random process would you trust it? Every single
00:23:33
scientist and some of them are very highowered that I've asked that question
00:23:38
to have said no I would not. So I say you've got a problem haven't you? Your
00:23:43
atheism goes too far. It undermines the very rationality we need to do science, let alone to believe in atheism. And
00:23:55
that's my main beef with people like Richard Dawkins and the new atheists. But I see they're fading. They're
00:24:02
fading. So here's the irony. Atheism claiming rationality destroys it. Whereas I believe the Christian faith
00:24:11
also claims rationality in in the sense that evidence-based we shout about that a lot in science and medicine and
00:24:20
rightly so. What we trust in ought to be evidence-based. I claim exactly the same
00:24:25
thing for Christianity and that's why I'm a Christian because I believe the
00:24:29
evidence supports it otherwise I wouldn't. >> So I guess how do I identify? Maybe as
00:24:36
someone that's agnostic, like I'm I don't really know. >> Well, that's okay.
00:24:41
But does that mean you're open to know? You'd like to know? >> Yes.
00:24:45
>> Well, that's I'm always open. >> That's that's wonderful to see. That's
00:24:50
that seems to me to be exactly the right attitude. Jesus actually challenged someone in his day and says if anyone
00:24:59
wants to do the will of God he shall know of the teaching whether I'm speaking from myself or whether it's
00:25:07
from God. I notice what he doesn't say. He doesn't say if anyone wants to know
00:25:13
he will know. If anyone wants to do he will know. And the difference between the two, and I'd be interested in your
00:25:20
response to it, is that being prepared to do something when you know it is more than just knowing it and possibly just
00:25:28
leaving it on the table. In other words, Jesus is interested in people who are going to take the step of trust and
00:25:36
following him. And that's the big deal. >> There should be a button just down below
00:25:41
here. And if it says subscribed, you're already subscribed. If it says subscriber, that means you're not yet.
00:25:47
And if you're not subscribed, please could you do us a favor and hit that button? It helps the show more than you
00:25:51
know. And according to the algorithm, you're someone that watches our show, but you haven't yet hit that button.
00:25:56
Thank you so much. >> Do you know what it is? I find all I find all explanations as to like the
00:26:00
bigger picture to be like fundamentally incomplete. >> Yes. >> Because there's many things you said
00:26:06
about the nature of Christianity and religion that I go amazing. Yes. Yes. Yes. And then there's a couple of things
00:26:10
I go well. Uh, and the same when I sit here with a physicist that's telling me
00:26:14
about the big bang. Yes. >> I have the same thing where I'm going, "Yes, yes, of course, yes. Oh, we've got
00:26:18
evidence that the universe is expanding." Okay. And then they'll say other things and I go, "Well, that's not
00:26:23
complete." >> And so, I find myself sat on the fence. I would love you to convince me. I mean,
00:26:28
it's not your responsibility to do so, but where does that journey of of believing begin for someone like me?
00:26:36
Because, you know, people say the Bible, and I go, "Well, it's kind of like what
00:26:40
you said about the computers. It's like if you're using something to justify the
00:26:45
same thing is true. >> Yes. >> Then that circular reasoning I find to
00:26:49
be incomplete. Cuz I could write on this piece of paper, uh, Steven Butler is a lizard.
00:26:53
>> Yes. >> And this piece of paper is true. And then you then use that same piece of paper to
00:27:02
justify the validity of that same piece of paper. >> Mhm. >> And I go, well, that's not solid
00:27:07
reasoning. >> No. But you see, I could say, Stephen Bartlett, there's a red Ferrari parked
00:27:15
in the street outside. >> Yeah. >> And it's yours if you want to take it.
00:27:21
We could sit and discuss it for a thousand years. You would never know whether I was true or not unless you
00:27:28
went and looked. >> And it seems to me the word skeptic is a very interesting one. I regard myself as
00:27:35
a skeptic. But in Greek, skept means to look at something from a distance. Now, if you are ever going to get to know a
00:27:47
person, you've got to begin to give up your distance. You will know that from
00:27:54
everyday life. And it seems to me one of the things to try to begin to grasp is God is not a proposition or a philosophy
00:28:03
or even a religion. God is a person. And as a person, he has entered our world. However incredible that may seem.
00:28:12
Although this is the irony of the Harrari position, if I might just say it on a side, people come to me as they've
00:28:19
done with their transhumanist agenda and say, you know, we're going to solve the
00:28:23
problem of death and we're going to increase human happiness. And I look at them and I smile. I say, you're too
00:28:30
late. And they say, "What? We haven't got there yet." I said, "You're too
00:28:34
late." What do you mean we're too late? Well, I said the problem of physical
00:28:37
death was solved when God raised Christ from the dead 20 centuries ago. And as for human happiness and uploading us
00:28:46
into eternity, you know, I'm waiting for the biggest uploading that's ever going
00:28:51
to happen in history when Christ returns and raises me from the dead because that
00:28:56
is precisely what he promises. And it's most interesting watching people and I
00:29:01
say, "Isn't it fascinating that your transhumanism consists in humans reaching out to become little gods?"
00:29:10
Whereas Christianity is the exact opposite. It talks about a god who became human so that he could give us
00:29:17
life and give us a new relationship with him. What really completes the circle for me is that my relationship with God
00:29:29
is a relationship which is based on the solution to the really hard problem. And
00:29:37
that is the problem that I by nature have not always done good and by my own standards I have failed. Now
00:29:48
all this talk of transhumanism, AI and everything else, what it's trying to do
00:29:53
is to build paradise, utopia without facing the problem of the damage that humans have caused to themselves and one
00:30:01
another. They will not face the sin problem. Christianity to me doesn't compete with any anything
00:30:08
else because Christ offers me something nobody else offers me. Nobody else offers me peace. The peace of knowing
00:30:17
that I have real forgiveness. The peace of knowing that I have a friend and a companion to whom I can talk all the
00:30:24
time. That's been so meaningful in my life as I spell out in detail my autobiography.
00:30:30
And the peace of having been given a new life that will not end when I die. I'm
00:30:36
82 now. I'm probably more than twice as old as you are. As I look towards the
00:30:41
future, I have in my heart a certainty. Not because I've merited it. The exact
00:30:48
opposite. Because I couldn't merit it, but because Christ has done something
00:30:54
for me through the cross and the resurrection. That may sound all mumbo jumbo at the moment, but has done
00:31:00
something that enables me to have a relationship that is secure, that floods over the whole of life and has made my
00:31:08
life what it is for the last 70 years, more or less. I think everybody, especially in a world that's getting
00:31:15
increasingly lonely and disconnected and isolated for many reasons, >> is looking for that secure relationship.
00:31:21
>> They are. >> They're looking for their own, you know, a home that can't fall down.
00:31:26
>> Yes. >> Yes. And a peace that doesn't fade and a an inheritance that doesn't Exactly.
00:31:32
You're right. >> If I could choose that, if I could press a button and have it, I would have it.
00:31:38
But there's this other part of my brain which will naturally interrogate whether it's
00:31:44
real >> or it's true. >> You're absolutely right. Why am I sitting in front of you talking about
00:31:50
this stuff? Because I've interrogated myself about it and its truth for over
00:31:56
70 years. I've made myself totally vulnerable. That's why I got into all the debates
00:32:02
with you atheists and all the rest of it because I want to be sure. But it won't
00:32:07
come about by pressing a button. It will come about if you're open enough to say,
00:32:15
"God, I'm open. Reveal yourself to me, and I'm prepared to take the steps that
00:32:22
I feel are leading me onto solid ground. I do not believe that this is a process
00:32:27
of taking a leap into the dark, but it's making a commitment on the basis of what
00:32:32
you know already and taking a step further forward." And the interesting thing about this is
00:32:40
the trust that's at the heart of everything. I trust my wife. I've been married to
00:32:47
her for 58 years this year. It's evidence-based trust. I don't trust her
00:32:53
for no reason. And the same is true of my friends, as would be the case with you. evidence-based trust in science and
00:33:04
in Christian things. I don't regard myself as religious particularly and the
00:33:09
reason is this and it's an important reason. Most religions prescribe a moral
00:33:16
way that you try to follow and you've teachers, gurus, imams, all the rest, priests to keep you on the way and then
00:33:23
you come to a judgment at the end. And I usually draw a scale of justice. And if
00:33:28
your good deeds tip over the bad deeds, then you get in to whatever it is, heaven, nirvana, all the rest of that's
00:33:34
religion. It's not Christianity, though many people think it is. Because if you
00:33:39
ask them, are you a Christian? and say, "Well, I do my best and I hope that God
00:33:43
will be kind." That isn't Christianity. It's the exact opposite of Christianity.
00:33:49
That's a meritbased religion. And you see the irony of all this is that we would
00:34:01
never at least I don't know some people might but in a human relationship we don't base our affection and
00:34:10
relationship with someone on the basis of their merit. I have a little analogy I use that sometimes tickles people's
00:34:16
minds. I say that I met a beautiful girl on my second day at Cambridge. I'd been
00:34:22
warned she might be there. And she was sitting in church. And I decided that I'd like to marry her. So
00:34:31
I bought the most expensive cookery book I could. And uh I came and I handed to her and she said, "What's that?" Well, I
00:34:38
said, "You know, we have a interesting tradition in our family, you see. Uh and
00:34:43
if anybody gets married, they give the potential bride a cookbook. Why?" Well,
00:34:48
look at page 152. Here's the the laws for making an apple cake. And I like apple cake. So law 1 22 two2 take so
00:34:56
much flour sugar. Now I said it's going to be like this. If you keep those rules
00:35:02
for the next, let's be generous 40 years or so. I will accept you otherwise you
00:35:07
can go back to your mother. Now when I say that to an audience, they rock about with laughter. But it's exactly the way
00:35:14
many of them have been taught to think about God. keep the rules as best as you can and hope that God is generous. When
00:35:23
actually I did no such thing. I've given my wife several cookbooks, but they're
00:35:29
not the basis of the relationship. And because the relationship is based on acceptance that comes at the start of
00:35:36
the common journey, it sets her free to live and do other things that she wants to do. And I have noticed often that
00:35:45
once people begin to realize that they're beginning to understand a basic concept which is grace that God does
00:35:53
everything and if we trust him he it is that gives us the certainty. So it's not
00:36:01
arrogance to accept it from him. It's arrogance actually to reject and say oh
00:36:06
no no I'll go my own way and I'll try my best and hope that you will accept me.
00:36:10
And the heart of the Christian message which I believe is there is that the trust is based on what someone else has
00:36:19
done what Christ has done not what I have done and that's what's given me the
00:36:23
power and as I said earlier completed the circle and enabled me to live. >> That was a a really beautiful
00:36:33
description and definition of what what the Christian faith is about. It still leaves me with a question about
00:36:41
whether it's true >> and this is the sort of central question that I need to find my way over.
00:36:45
>> Yeah, I agree with you. >> Absolutely. >> And this is I find myself often I've sat
00:36:51
with a few um like Christian apologists and asked them similar questions about like how do I know if it's true?
00:36:57
And I guess so so far I've got you know if there's a red Ferrari outside you'd
00:37:01
have to go outside and see for yourself. That's the only way you're going to
00:37:03
know. But what how do you know that this thing you've committed yourself to and
00:37:08
you've believed and you know talked about for 70 years of your life is true and could it be the case that it's not
00:37:15
true? >> Okay, let's handle that. That's a hugely important question. I have two
00:37:22
approaches to this which I call roughly speaking objective and subjective. And it depends entirely where someone's
00:37:29
coming from. They may start very far back and say, "Look, we read about this
00:37:34
chap Jesus. How do we know he ever existed?" Well, then you go to the ancient historians and you find that
00:37:39
most of them, whether they're atheists or not, believe that he existed and so
00:37:43
on. >> I accept that he existed. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Okay. Well, that's a good start. You
00:37:48
know, some of the disciples when Jesus rose from the dead, they just didn't believe the story. Ridiculous. And
00:37:54
there's a famous story of Thomas who said to the others, he said, "Unless I
00:37:59
see the marks in his hands and so on, I won't believe." And then Jesus stood
00:38:02
among them and he didn't make fun of Thomas's objective. He said, "Thomas, come and
00:38:10
have a look." You never know what swimming is until you get into the water.
00:38:16
Isn't that true? >> It is true. And all I can say is that step by step, keep asking your
00:38:24
questions. Absolutely. I don't believe that God will ever ask us to take a step with which we should
00:38:32
be uncomfortable. I just don't believe that. >> Could you be wrong that Christianity So
00:38:37
could it be the case that Christianity was was about a real guy called Jesus? uh
00:38:44
based on a real guy called Jesus. But the stories told, you know, there was decades passed between the things that
00:38:50
happened and people >> not so much as you'd think actually. >> What for four decades for the first
00:38:54
time? >> When you when you say to me, could you be wrong? My academic mind says
00:39:00
theoretically, yes. But practically, no. Could I be wrong? It would be like asking me, John, you know, you've been
00:39:08
married to Sally for 58 years. Could you be wrong that she loves you? Well, theoretically, yes, but actually the
00:39:18
evidence all points in the other direction. And that's what I would say that I have built up in my life. And I'd
00:39:26
love you to ask me that question when you've read that autobiography. >> Why would you think it would read?
00:39:31
>> Because I I think what I relate there is enough evidence for someone outside
00:39:36
who's skeptical to say there may well be something in that. But in the end, you
00:39:42
won't know until you step into the water and then you find that Christ is there
00:39:49
to catch you. >> And what did you find in the water when you stepped into the water?
00:39:52
>> Well, I was very young. You see, my parents taught me quite clearly that I
00:39:59
wasn't born a Christian. You become a Christian by trusting Christ. That's to
00:40:05
have somebody born or made a Christian by some ceremony is absurd to my mind. And so in my simple way, I responded as
00:40:15
a child. I didn't have any great feelings or anything else. But what happened to me as I grew, especially as
00:40:22
I I went to university in Cambridge, and I decided, look, I really believe this stuff is true. I'm going to stand for
00:40:31
it. And it was when I began to stand and share with others that a great deal of the underpinning came in and the
00:40:40
certainty came cumulatively. Not all a big I've never had these big flashes of anything. But I have had
00:40:50
several experiences of what I can only put down to direct divine guidance and I record them in the book.
00:40:59
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link below to try them for yourself. Now I've got some um some of the questions
00:43:15
that really stumped me when I was so I was I was Christian up until the age of about 18 and then I went into the whole
00:43:21
like new atheist movement with Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris and that little phase of my life. But one of the stats
00:43:26
that used to get me when I went through that new atheist movement >> was that
00:43:31
>> globally 91% of adults simply adopt and keep the religion they were raised in.
00:43:36
And if a person is born into a Hindi or Muslim household, there is a 99% statistical probability they will remain
00:43:42
in that faith. Only 1% switch out. >> And then the argument, I think it came
00:43:47
from Dawkins or someone else, was that >> is it fair that there's this birth
00:43:52
lottery determining who ends up believing what or theoretically getting into hell or heaven.
00:43:58
>> Yes. >> Because if I was born in, I don't know, Afghanistan, the probability says I'd
00:44:03
probably be Muslim. >> Yeah. Well, I I take that absolutely. >> So God gave you an advantage in this
00:44:09
context because he he he allowed you to be born his in his all knowing all all uh understanding way put you to be born
00:44:16
in a place where you were likely to be Christian. >> It sounds to me as if he gave the same
00:44:20
advantage to you. >> So the question is what do we do with that privilege? Now I know that there
00:44:29
are hard problems around the edge here. There are really hard problems not only where you're born and what you believe.
00:44:37
This was the argument that Peter Singer advanced to be had a debate. I don't
00:44:42
know whether you've heard about it. Peter Singer, you know, the Princeton ethicist who really was one of the new
00:44:50
atheists but not quite very famous for his views on dealing with the unborn all the rest. when we had a debate in
00:44:57
Australia and I started as I always do by being upfront about my background and he when he got the chance to speak
00:45:07
he said well there goes my best objection to religion people always stay in the religion which they're brought up
00:45:15
you see when I next got a chance to speak I said Peter I told the audience about my Christian background but you
00:45:24
said nothing about yours now tell Were your parents atheists? He said they were. Oh, I said then you
00:45:32
remained in the faith in which you were brought up. Oh, but he said it isn't a
00:45:37
faith. And I said, Peter, I was I was convinced that you believed it. And it brought the house down. Of course, this
00:45:45
the cyerspace went mad. And the point was made repeatedly all over the internet. Here's one of the world's top
00:45:51
philosophers. He doesn't understand that his atheism is a belief system. >> And the irony was the very first person
00:45:59
he met after that debate was a fellow Hungarian Jew who was a friend of mine. And then my friend said, "And I became a
00:46:08
Christian." So the very first person he met was someone who had transitioned
00:46:13
from his background. That doesn't answer your question. It's a question I ask
00:46:18
often >> because God could correct this. Well, this is just the point. And we have had
00:46:25
these arguments and debates. A good God and an all powerful God would, could, should, all this kind of stuff. And we
00:46:32
never get a satisfactory answer to that. So, I've come up with another problem possibly
00:46:39
because I'm a mathematician and we when we've hammered at one problem for
00:46:42
centuries, we usually stop and try another one. My other problem is just as hard, but I think it gets me a bit
00:46:50
further and it's this. Every world view must face a mixed picture. I call it beauty and
00:46:58
barbwire or beauty and bombs. That that's the world. It's mixed. And if you
00:47:03
don't accept that, you're not in touch with reality. Now, here's my question.
00:47:09
Is there anywhere evidence enough to trust God with that situation? That's a hard question.
00:47:20
>> And by that you mean the situation of the sort of geographical distribution of
00:47:24
believers. >> Yes. We'll never understand it or solve it. >> But do we trust God?
00:47:28
>> Do we trust God ultimately to be absolutely fair? Because if God isn't
00:47:33
fair in the end, he knows what everybody thinks, I believe. And we'll be surprised maybe at what he does because
00:47:40
he can measure how much people know. My responsibility is twofold. One, to respond to the evidence I've had and
00:47:50
then Christ tells me to go and share it. And that's what I do and I've been doing
00:47:55
all my life. It doesn't answer a question, but it gives you motivation. and the
00:48:05
alternative to rule God out has so many uh negatives to it that I think I think yeah so when I think about what I
00:48:14
understand of the Bible there's a particular part of the Bible that talks about the only way into heaven is
00:48:20
through Jesus and from that I inferred that the only way to get into this great place that everybody wants to go to is
00:48:26
by believing >> but does everybody want to go to it I'm not sure that they do
00:48:31
>> I I have met many people who when they hear what Christ offers, they reject it.
00:48:36
But that that's that's another point. >> So if if we talk about this
00:48:39
distribution, >> yes, >> sort of birthright distribution of what you believe, um, and then those that
00:48:45
believe this one particular thing are going to get into this heaven, it feels unfair. Or this idea that only those
00:48:54
that believe get in is wrong. >> Or God is not as nice as we thought and he's playing a bit of a cruel game.
00:49:01
There's a fair bit going for your logic there. I I I think and I think there are
00:49:08
aspects of this we don't understand because to give a crude example of this I expect to meet Abraham
00:49:17
and Moses but they didn't know about Jesus >> cuz they were before. >> Yes.
00:49:22
>> When I approach this you said you're agnostic. I like that word. People
00:49:27
rarely ask me if I'm agnostic, but what I'm telling you is I'm agnostic about
00:49:32
masses of things. It's how I learn. >> Agosco in Greek just means I don't know.
00:49:39
>> Yeah. >> And once you take the other step and saying I don't know and you can't know,
00:49:44
it then becomes illogical because if you don't know, how can you know that I
00:49:47
can't know? And I always remember the words of Richard Fineman who was a brilliant Nobel Prize winning physicist.
00:49:53
You probably heard of Richard Fineman who said, "Bend over backwards to criticize yourself because you are the
00:50:02
easiest person for yourself to deceive." >> Amen. >> He was dead right. And that's why I love
00:50:09
exploring these things. And I feel honored to talk to someone who's so refreshing. I think there's great hope
00:50:16
for our culture in people like yourself exploring and sharing with the world the conclusions that
00:50:25
you've come to and the people that you're interacting with. >> Yeah, like I said, I have no I don't
00:50:30
have perfect answers either way. So that's why the word agnostic seems to be
00:50:34
perfectly apt. Um the other real question that I had that really stumped me when I was 18 years old was this
00:50:41
point about omniscience. Yes. I mean, it's the oldest question in the sort of
00:50:45
atheist religious battle, which is if God is all knowing, he knew exactly which individuals would reject him and
00:50:51
suffer >> um and go to hell before he even created them. >> Yeah, that's determinism.
00:50:57
>> So, how is creating a soul that you know is doomed >> um an act of love?
00:51:02
>> Well, it isn't. I don't go for that determinism. In fact, I've written a book that thick
00:51:08
about it. >> I think it was actually Ricky Jves tell the story of the the baby being born in
00:51:14
let's say it's Africa or somewhere else or India or wherever it might be the UK
00:51:19
who is born with a parasite eating its eyeball out from the inside. >> I know this. Yeah.
00:51:24
>> And I remember hearing that when I was 18. >> Yeah. Terrible. >> And thinking, okay, so if God's all
00:51:28
knowing, he knew that that baby was going to have its eye eaten out by a parasite before the baby was born, but
00:51:34
allowed the baby to be born anyway. And with my moral compass, I would have intervened. And if he's omnipotent or
00:51:40
powerful, he could have inter. So how do you these qu where is the flaw in that question?
00:51:46
Is there a flaw? Is there a misunderstanding? >> I I think there can be a misunderstanding but it's a very
00:51:52
understandable one because I feel exactly the weight of that as well. My question that I set out a few minutes
00:52:00
ago is there any evidence anywhere that God you can trust God with it? And the major piece of evidence to my mind is
00:52:09
the cross of Christ. And if Christ really is God whom he claimed to be, this is God's suffering. And why is God
00:52:17
suffering? Well, it certainly tells me that he hasn't remained distant from human suffering, but has himself become
00:52:24
part of it. Now, that's not an answer. There are no simplistic answers here.
00:52:30
But you see once you remove God that child there's no hope for it. It's dead gone out nothing but suppose God
00:52:39
can compensate that child because he is the power to raise from the dead as he did with Jesus
00:52:47
that changes everything for me. The universe without a resurrection I don't know whether you've ever watched my
00:52:54
debate the first one with Richard Dawkins. >> I suspect I have. the very last bit of
00:52:59
it, we were suddenly told we'd only 2 minutes to wrap up instead of nine each
00:53:06
and I said something about the resurrection. And I never forget what Richard said. It was something like
00:53:12
this. We've had a great discussion about big ideas and so on. And now we come
00:53:17
down to the resurrection of Jesus. How petty, how paroial, how unworthy of the universe. I remember thinking
00:53:28
if Jesus rose from the dead, it's the biggest thing that's ever happened
00:53:32
because it may open the way to understanding that there is life after death. And you see CS Lewis has helped
00:53:40
me a lot. I used to listen to him. I'm that old. He has helped me a lot in in
00:53:46
this idea of a sense in which there's more than one world. And we're so conditioned to
00:53:54
thinking that this world is the only one there is. But if there is another world
00:53:58
and there is a loving God, then I suspect, I can't prove this to you, but when we one day see and enter that world
00:54:09
and see what God has done with the kind of child you mentioned, we'll have no
00:54:14
more questions. >> So, you think he's compensated that child? >> Oh, yes. God is a God of love. He will
00:54:22
do much better than look the biggest gift that God has given you and me is our moral sense and the capacity to
00:54:31
love. Now, we analyze problems like this with our God-given capacities. And we come, and I understand it
00:54:46
perfectly well because I've come to the same place as you. And say, "Well, God, if I had been you,
00:54:52
I would have done this." Well, I suspect one day we're going to find out why God didn't.
00:55:01
He's going to let me die one day. I've nearly died died already. I've said
00:55:05
goodbye to my wife by the way and they thought they weren't going 14 years ago
00:55:10
and I said goodbye. And it's interesting when things like that hit you. Forgive
00:55:15
the personal reference, but it's very real. Total peace both of us had as I went into the operating theater and
00:55:24
the surgeon saved my life. And this would take us down another rabbit hole. But I got to New Zealand just a few days
00:55:31
after the earthquake. And I was on a lecture tour and everything was scrapped. I was in television, radio,
00:55:37
but only one topic, why earthquakes, you see. And I met people that had lost loved ones and all this kind of thing.
00:55:45
And I talked about the God who has suffered and raised Jesus from the dead. And the interesting thing was it was
00:55:53
that that gave the most hope to the people that were listening to me because they told me and wrote me little letters
00:56:00
afterwards and so on. So I I think there's something big here. But that God allows these things to happen is
00:56:08
something that in the end we have to take on board even when they happen to us. >> What about all the um the humans that
00:56:17
lived before Jesus came? Well, God will never judge anybody for not knowing what
00:56:22
they didn't know. >> Interesting. That's an interesting idea. So, I don't know.
00:56:29
>> So, am I good? Am I going to get into heaven? >> Well, no one is good but God. But you
00:56:35
see, >> is it important for me to >> You do know a great deal. That's obvious
00:56:40
to me. You do know a great deal. You know what this is all about. And in a sense you've been very near uh at the
00:56:48
beginning and you're now doing an exploration and I mean your life stories that you must write your autobiography
00:56:55
sometimes but wait a few years. >> Yeah. I need I think I need a few more experiences.
00:56:59
>> Yes. >> But you will get them. I I I really believe that the openness is the
00:57:05
important thing. >> Yeah. >> Quiz people. Put your Christian friends
00:57:10
under now. >> Yes. I know. I know. It's lovely to find someone who's prepared to do that quite
00:57:15
frankly. >> Is it important that I believe in God? Like if I live a good life and I'm kind
00:57:21
to people and I do my best. >> But you see that's exactly the point I was making that people think that living
00:57:26
a good life and being kind to people is what God is interested in. When God has prepared for us a relationship with
00:57:35
himself through Christ that deals with the forgiveness of sins that we all need, forgive me using the hackneed
00:57:44
phrase, but that's it. And will give us a new life and a power to live, a new
00:57:50
power. You know, it's all very well saying, I do good and I do this and do the other thing. But we don't have the
00:57:58
power to live as we should. If we compare ourselves to the sermon on the mount for a week, we'll soon realize
00:58:04
that we're lacking. And I I think one of the big changes comes in people as they
00:58:11
realize just the depth of what they might be capable of and possibly the depths of some things
00:58:19
that sadly they do and are facing a a big need of forgiveness. You meet many of them in prisons of course but I I
00:58:29
have seen such remarkable things happen both directly and indirectly with people
00:58:34
who've made such a mess of life and God has met them even in death row and Russia and places like that where I was
00:58:42
able to go because I speak the language to a certain extent again that I find tremendously powerful evidence that God
00:58:51
is at work in these people's lives. It is statistically the case that the more
00:58:56
hopeless your life becomes, the higher the probability you have of turning to um a religion and also if you're having
00:59:02
a crisis of meaning in your life for whatever reason. I looked at some of the data and it does show that
00:59:06
>> that's absolutely right and that's what you'd expect if there if it's true at
00:59:10
least to a certain extent it gives people something outside themselves. That's simple psychology. I would have
00:59:17
thought >> simple psychology >> but it doesn't prove the truth or
00:59:20
>> it doesn't prove the truth because what if I believe in the dragon at the bottom
00:59:24
of the garden or the spaghetti monster >> lepreorns if you're Irish >> and it seems to be the case that really
00:59:28
irrespective of which religion that you know fills that you know place in your life you still get the same boost in
00:59:34
meaning post starting to believe >> well I'm not convinced of that you see
00:59:38
because I'm sitting here as a Christian and I've reasoned for being a Christian
00:59:43
because I don't find this need met in those practitioner ers of other religions. I don't find that sense of
00:59:52
fulfillment and peace uh that comes through the forgiveness in Christ. Now when I say that I need to guard that
01:00:00
very carefully because one of the troubles in and you will probably have realized this in talking about different
01:00:08
religions is that once you begin to criticize a religion, people rightly think you're looking down
01:00:15
at them. And so I clear the ground completely by saying that a pagan or a person in any religion
01:00:25
could put me to shame by their moral behavior in raising questions about what is taught by a particular religion. I'm
01:00:35
not criticizing your moral stance. And CS Lewis helped me greatly there. He wrote a book in the 1940s where he
01:00:43
tackled I think 40 different religions and philosophies and in every one of them he found the golden rule. Do unto
01:00:50
others what you would and he points out that this is morally hardwired into your system. So that when
01:00:59
I'm talking to people of other faiths and ask these questions, I I'm very
01:01:04
careful to say that at the beginning. But we've got to face the fact that there are differences. My Jewish friends
01:01:13
believe that Jesus died and did not rise. My Muslim friends believed he didn't die. I believe he both died and
01:01:21
rose. Those three things cannot be simultaneously true. >> But when I look at the stats here, data
01:01:25
shows that devout Muslims and a devout Hindu get the exact same psychological meaning boost and sense of peace as a
01:01:32
devout Christian. >> Well, how do you measure that? Well, they ask them, "Does your life more
01:01:36
meaningful?" And sometimes, um, I've got one particular friend who's part of his,
01:01:41
you know, uh, evidence that what he believes is true is the feeling he got when he started believing it.
01:01:48
>> Yeah. Well, >> but the data suggests that >> that if it is true, a positive feeling
01:01:54
would reinforce that, of course, but it doesn't prove it in the end. But then
01:01:58
your criteria for yourself of what you accept will be different from that person. So you have to proceed
01:02:06
on the basis like Thomas of old. He wouldn't accept what the other guys said. He said I need the evidence for
01:02:12
myself and you need the evidence for yourself. Evidence of the kind that's going to give you a settled peace and
01:02:20
confidence in what you believe. I can understand that perfectly. >> Then there were also I was thinking then
01:02:25
I was thinking that there's fiction movies I've watched that made me feel
01:02:28
really good. >> Yes. >> Afterwards and they made me feel like more motivated and connected to the
01:02:32
university. >> Yes, of course. Steve, what are you doing? >> Uh, just making myself a delicious
01:02:39
coffee >> from the freezer. >> From the freezer. Have you not heard about Comtier?
01:02:43
>> No. >> Oh my gosh, this is going to change your life. I invested in this company called
01:02:48
Cometier last year and they're now one of the sponsors of this podcast because
01:02:51
they've taken a pretty revolutionary approach to making coffee. Every coffee
01:02:55
is precision brewed at 10 times the strength and then they flash freeze it with liquid nitrogen to lock in the
01:03:03
flavor and freshness and then it's delivered to you on dry ice in these recyclable aluminum capsules still
01:03:10
frozen like a little ice cube. All you have to do is pop the capsule out, add some hot water, and then you stir it and
01:03:20
you are good to go. You can also make delicious iced coffee drinks as well. Just pour it in,
01:03:27
stir it up, and for anyone that hasn't tried it, you can get $30 off your first
01:03:32
order of Cometier coffee if you go to cometier.com/stephven. I've done almost 700 interviews with
01:03:41
some of the most interesting people in the world. And one of the things you learn, which is unexpected, is that
01:03:45
vulnerability is the doorway to connection. And after sitting here for 2 three hours with a guest, I feel a deep
01:03:51
sense of connection to them. And as they leave, what I get them to do is to write
01:03:56
a question in the diary of a CEO. We've taken all of the questions from the diary of a CEO. We have put the question
01:04:04
here on this card with the name of the person that wrote it. So you can sit at home as I do with my fiance and my
01:04:10
colleagues at work and other people in my life. Whenever we get a minute, we play the Dracoio conversation cards. And
01:04:17
it is incredible what happens. These are great if you're in a romantic relationship and you want to connect
01:04:22
your partner more. These are also great if you're in a team and you want to bond
01:04:26
your team together. And I have to say they're also great for families that want to learn more about each other and
01:04:30
that need a good excuse to spend some time in a digital world in the analog environment connecting human to human.
01:04:37
It is remarkable what the right question at the right time can do. Go to the diary.com
01:04:44
and you can get these conversation cards right now. So, going back to this question I asked about good people,
01:04:50
living a good life. It it it seems to be the case that the Bible suggests that if
01:04:55
you don't believe in God, even if you lived a good life, you go to hell. And
01:04:59
hell is described as not a nice place. So, I I was thinking about the most kind person I know that's lived her life to
01:05:06
be unbelievable passed away. She didn't believe. Does that mean she's in hell?
01:05:11
Well, you can't answer that. Let me just say something here that what scripture reveals is a very
01:05:20
interesting thing that the only people to whom Jesus talked about hell were religious bigots
01:05:27
who were in danger of it. He didn't talk about it to ordinary folks who were struggling with believing
01:05:35
and trusting God and all the rest. That's point number one. >> What is what are you implying there?
01:05:40
Sorry. Well, what I'm implying there is that we paint hell as something ogre like god stuffing and demonsting uh
01:05:53
bodies into hell when actually I think Lewis got it right here you know when he talks about this that
01:06:02
hell is absence of God and it's chosen if a person doesn't want God in their
01:06:10
life and I've known people like that and they choose it, God will give them what
01:06:14
they chose. Otherwise, God is going to have to force his way into their lives and they don't want him. And here is the
01:06:21
amazing thing to my mind about Jesus and his attitude. He would go places. He would heal people. He would bring peace
01:06:29
into their lives and all the rest of it. But when folk saw what he did and said,
01:06:35
"Go leave us alone," he went. He didn't force his way into their lives. And it it seems to me that the
01:06:44
one example in the New Testament of a person who did not live a good life and neglected the poor around him and ended
01:06:56
in that place. There is no evidence that he wanted out of it. What he said was, "Please send Abram to my brothers that
01:07:06
they don't come to this place." There's no indication that he wanted out of it.
01:07:10
And I think this is a grim reality here that when we use these words, we need to
01:07:16
be immensely careful. You can choose not to have God and God will honor that choice and that is hell.
01:07:27
>> One of the things that um I grew up believing because of the the Bible was
01:07:30
that if you repented, >> yes, >> which is you know to ask forgiveness,
01:07:34
admit your sins, etc. acknowledge God, believe, then your sins would be forgiven.
01:07:40
>> So if someone was a serial killer for their whole life and then repented at
01:07:44
the end of their life, would they be forgiven and allowed into heaven? I guess this kind of links to the question
01:07:49
I just asked, which is if someone was a doctor for their whole life, cur curing childhood cancer, but they didn't
01:07:54
believe they would theoretically be going to this place described as hell. >> Yeah, we can argue about cases like that
01:08:00
all the time. Neither of us is God. And the way God deals with these people, after all, next to Christ on the cross
01:08:07
were two thieves. Well, they were terrorists, actually. They both murdered apparently. And one of them railed
01:08:14
against Jesus and shouted and all this kind of thing. And the other uh simply said to him, "I deserve to be here.
01:08:22
Remember me when you come into your kingdom." And Jesus turned to him on the
01:08:26
cross and said, "Today you will be with me in paradise." And so yes, he in that
01:08:33
sense. Yes. And the Apostle Paul, you know, was a murderer. There are deep mysteries here. It's just amazing. I
01:08:41
never forget looking through the door of a Russian security death row. I'd never been in a
01:08:48
death row before. And the stink, it was just like a nightmare. And because I was
01:08:54
the only one of the Brits who could speak Russian, I went up to the door and a chap came over and looked at me gaunt
01:09:01
and all this. And he was just awaiting execution. And what he said to me was this. He
01:09:07
said, "I deserve to be here." He killed 12 women or something. I can't remember
01:09:11
which. And then his face just burst into what I can only describe as a ghastly smile.
01:09:20
And he said, "I met Jesus here and he forgave me and you just you go away with a very
01:09:30
burdened heart, I think." And he said, "My colleague lying over there is the same." What do you make of
01:09:37
it? I don't think we're going to find out. >> I don't know. I feel like I'm wired to
01:09:42
try I try and have to solve these problems, these big questions. I have to like figure them out or they all
01:09:47
just sit there causing increasingly more confusion which pops me right on that agnostic fence.
01:09:53
>> Yes, I would encourage you to concentrate on the one that you think is most important one at a time and I I
01:10:01
don't know because I've only met you. I think what you're doing by talking to people from different
01:10:11
backgrounds and so on. I'd love to be able to say here's where you must look,
01:10:16
but each one of us is so complex and what will answer the question for you might not answer it for the person
01:10:23
sitting next to you. >> Mhm. >> But don't stop exploring, I would say.
01:10:29
But I don't think you will. >> No, I won't. That's for sure. because I
01:10:33
find the the curious pursuit of truth in and of itself a rewarding pursuit irrespective of whether I ever find the
01:10:40
answers. >> That's the key. A speech that made a deep impression on me was given by
01:10:45
Alexander Soldier Nitsson when he was pushed out of the Soviet Union. Do not compromise in the least with lies. Live
01:10:53
not by lies. I think our generation needs to hear that because one of the great and tragic capacities of AI is the
01:11:04
spread of lies, deep fakes, all the rest of it. I've been subject to it myself in
01:11:10
the last month. when you think about the impact that AI is going to have on human
01:11:14
purpose. We talk a lot about job losses and yes um you know white collar workers
01:11:18
entry- level roles and then really like everything else if if you have a long enough time horizon it's conceivable
01:11:23
that many of the roles we all do today including maybe even as a podcaster um I think Spotify announced this month that
01:11:28
you're going to be able to generate your own podcasts with AI um what is the high
01:11:33
level sort of philosophical point we need to understand about meaning and how to live a good life uh in a world where
01:11:40
some of us might lose our jobs and have to contend with change in a way that we've not experienced before.
01:11:46
>> I think we just have to I mean I have children, grandchildren, all the rest of
01:11:50
it. And one of my sons is beginning to ask questions. Dad, AI looks as if it's
01:11:55
going to replace my job. Well, he's techsavvy and he will rise to it, I suspect. But all industrial revolutions
01:12:05
did this, but this is going to do it in a scale never before seen. And the tragedy is uh I was talking about this
01:12:12
in South Africa and they said it's all very well to tell us to reskill people
01:12:17
but if you don't have the educational infrastructure to do that you'll just force a much bigger divide
01:12:23
between the rich and the poor and they're really worried about it. I think the important thing which is why
01:12:29
I wrote my books is to inform and get people thinking and get them talking. >> What is the conversation you want them
01:12:37
to be talking about? I think it's a very wide-ranging conversation. You know, there are
01:12:44
existential things for people. They're afraid. >> Should they be? >> Well, they should be afraid of some
01:12:52
things. I think the creeping advance of totalitarianism is something that could engulf us all
01:13:00
if we're not very careful. It's creeping, creeping, creeping, and is being ruled out in parts of the world,
01:13:06
particularly China. But not only I read a very interesting report by a Chinese watcher saying beware you and the west
01:13:16
because the only difference between us and you is you've got all the technology
01:13:20
but not yet a central government imposing it. Not yet. Beware and I think we have to beware because we are
01:13:29
sleepwalking into this. uh Sir Anthony Seldon, I don't know whether you've come
01:13:35
across him. He's a an education is very highly regarded by various governments
01:13:41
has written a book about AI and its effect in education and of course it's having a devastating effect as you know
01:13:49
what is an essay. Everybody's using AI and it's hard to recognize whether it's AI or not now. So
01:13:58
that we're into a whole new world or coming rapidly into it. How do we know what is true and what
01:14:06
isn't? A few weeks ago, I was contacted, could a publisher produce a transcript
01:14:13
of a recent lecture I'd given because they liked it so much. Never heard of it. I looked it up, discovered a website
01:14:20
describing itself as Linux logic and it was a picture of me, but it was deep faked all the way through and AI
01:14:28
generated material that I would never have said all politicized and everything else.
01:14:34
>> Is it conceivable that maybe you know so much of this technology has promised
01:14:39
that it would make us more human and so much of it failed. It made us more isolated and lonely.
01:14:43
>> Oh yes. Is it conceivable that if a technology comes along like AI, it will
01:14:48
render us um useful for the things that humans are uniquely positioned to do >> as in you know being with each other in
01:14:57
the real world and absolutely relationships and is it conceivable that maybe we were never meant to sit in
01:15:01
front of screens tap tapping buttons and >> oh I think that's absolutely true what's
01:15:05
already exercising many people's minds in that direction >> and could that be a better life
01:15:12
>> well how would I judge that I >> I guess one way. Yeah, it's a good
01:15:15
point. Um, you know, I was thinking about this. I was thinking, is this like the moment where we kind of regress back
01:15:20
to how we used to live, our true maybe human nature? Is that is that what happens here? Where I don't know, we
01:15:29
spend more time with each other in the real world and we cuz that's what you
01:15:33
know that's very human and my Maslovian needs of connection and touch and >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you can you can
01:15:40
demonstrate that. Look at these groups of parents who have said to their kids, "Look, we're going away into the country
01:15:47
for a week and we're taking your smartphones away." And they grumble and
01:15:53
say, "No, no, no." And they come back after the week having rediscovered
01:15:56
nature. They don't want to use their smartphones very much. Totally transformed by touch and taste and
01:16:02
feeling. You see, AI is a machine. It doesn't have any of our five senses. which are all connected with our
01:16:13
consciousness. It doesn't see, it doesn't hear, >> it doesn't taste.
01:16:17
>> When you say it doesn't, >> it doesn't touch, it doesn't smell,
01:16:20
>> it doesn't see. >> Oh, it can it can be programmed to recognize patterns, but it is no
01:16:25
awareness of what the process of seeing is. >> Does it need it? >> Well, that's not the point. What I'm
01:16:31
saying is it's uh distinctively human that we understand what seeing is. We know what seeing red is. Do we the
01:16:39
machine? Yes, I think we do. >> I mean, we can philosophize all around it, but it's a conscious experience. And
01:16:46
consciousness from a scientific perspective is called the hard problem. No one knows what it is.
01:16:52
>> We don't understand it. >> Yes, we can't re you can't replicate it.
01:16:56
>> So, how do we know if AI is conscious? If the output is the same, I I can point
01:17:01
an AI at this and say, "What is it?" And the AI will say, "It's a mug." And I can
01:17:06
get a human to walk in here and say, "What is that?" and they'll go a mug.
01:17:09
Now the output is the same. >> Yes. But the understanding is not there. >> And why does that part why is that
01:17:16
critical? >> Well, because there's a huge difference in being a machine and responding to a
01:17:23
program created by others and being aware of what you're doing consciously. That's a totally higher level of being.
01:17:31
>> I agree. But why does that matter in this context? Well, >> one another way of asking this question
01:17:37
is actually visualized by what I have in front of me here because one of the big
01:17:40
big debates around AI is is it creative? >> Yes, I know. >> So, here we have a picture done by
01:17:48
>> a human. >> Yes. >> Here, which is you know picture of a family and a dog and there and then we
01:17:54
have another picture here which is done by AI. >> Yes. >> And we have another picture here which
01:17:59
is done by a different AI. >> Yes. Now there's a debate that um AI can't be
01:18:04
creative. Now can AI be creative? >> Well, if you call what's in front of you
01:18:11
as creative, then it can be. But it now comes down to the very big question of what you actually mean by creative.
01:18:21
>> Yeah. >> You see, it can create things. It can put things together that haven't been in
01:18:27
that form before, but it's not aware of doing it. It doesn't know that those are
01:18:33
children because it doesn't know. >> But if I ask it what is that? It would
01:18:38
say a child. >> Yes. But it doesn't know like we know >> and does and this it goes back to the
01:18:44
same question which is does which is like what the process why does the process matter if the
01:18:53
output is identical. >> Well let me just say that that view is exactly the view that Alan Turing took
01:19:02
at the beginning. And if you look at what's often referred to as the AI bible, uh Peter Norvik and his
01:19:09
colleagues, he said, "Look, we are not trying to create a conscious machine. We
01:19:16
wouldn't even know what that meant." >> Yeah, >> we are happy with the imitation game
01:19:22
>> and that's good enough for us. We're not trying to do it. But you see the
01:19:26
conscious side involves all that appreciation of life and nature and beauty and so on that we can see some
01:19:34
meaning in. But also there's another thing. There's a consciousness of other
01:19:39
people and there's God consciousness. I don't think AI anywhere near that.
01:19:46
Machines there are certain things they cannot do even potentially that the human mind can do. So there's no way a
01:19:54
machine is ever going to be able to simulate a human mind completely. But that's difficult. That's difficult
01:19:59
mathematics and all the rest of it. And it's highly controversial. >> Why is it an important conversation to
01:20:05
have that it is conscious or not conscious when the output is is the same? >> Yes, I I can see the question. But if
01:20:13
you want to live in a reductive universe which ends up being meaningless, well then you can go that way. There's not
01:20:20
nothing to stop you. But it seems to me there are enough indicators within nature, within science, within
01:20:27
our human experience that tell us there's a bigger world. And this is the right and left brain stuff.
01:20:35
We're back to Beilus again. He would he would his stuff in AI is very strong. He
01:20:42
thinks it's really dangerous because it's ruining all this side of the brain
01:20:47
and the richness o of human experience and it's in danger of destroying it. He
01:20:53
actually invites people to come and fight with him. >> So in such a world what is it that makes
01:20:58
humans um what what is it that makes us special? Is it that those human things we talked about relational?
01:21:05
>> Oh I think so. Yes, absolutely. And the fact that you and I can have a conversation like this,
01:21:11
>> you could have this conversation with AI. >> I'm the same way. AI is pretty thin
01:21:16
still. You can have a conversation of sorts. But remember, who's responsible
01:21:22
for its capacity? Humans. It's something made in the image of humans. And that's
01:21:27
a dangerous thing. I'd prefer I'd prefer to have made with something made in the
01:21:31
image of God. It's interesting because we almost we're getting to a point where
01:21:34
there's going to probably be some like ethical questions around >> Oh, there I mean around robotics.
01:21:40
>> Oh, everywhere. >> You know, in the same way that many of us feel quite empathetic towards like
01:21:45
trees. >> Yes. Yes. >> And we feel empathetic towards animals. >> Um, now trees haven't got a brain, but
01:21:51
just cutting down a tree needlessly I think would annoy a lot of people because it's
01:21:56
>> it would annoy me. >> Yeah, it would annoy me too. And I think there's almost going to get to a point
01:22:00
where like you know people are going to start asking similar questions around >> robots
01:22:07
>> which is it's an interesting question. >> It is. It is. >> Let me ask you a final question then
01:22:13
which is what is the the most important thing we haven't talked about that we
01:22:18
should have talked about as it relates to all of the work in these tangental subjects?
01:22:24
>> Oh, I can't answer that. That perhaps the most important thing is finding the trigger that will help you
01:22:32
to take a step forward into into faith into the Christian faith. And I would just encourage you to keep
01:22:43
asking your questions in the open way you've done. And I have regarded it an
01:22:48
honor to have this discussion. And I hope very much it won't be the last one, but age
01:22:55
may prevent that. But thank you very much. >> We have a um closing tradition where the
01:23:00
last guest leaves a question for the next not knowing who they're leaving it
01:23:03
for. And the question that's left for you in a world with so many challenges, what
01:23:14
can we do to restore hope and trigger engagement? give people a real basis for hope that
01:23:24
transcends this world. And the only place I know where to find that is in Christ and in Christianity.
01:23:35
John, thank you. One of the um one of the most compelling arguments for uh God that you've presented and your way
01:23:44
of seeing the world in being is not actually necessarily anything you've written in your books or not not
01:23:48
necessarily anything you've said. It is it is actually you and uh you you you have a certain peace
01:23:59
and contentment that I rarely see in people that I interview but I often see and I've almost always seen in the
01:24:08
Christians that I've interviewed and this is a interesting phenomenon for me.
01:24:12
I interviewed Wesley Huff recently. Do you know Wesley Huff? >> Yes. Yes. >> He was the same Canadian. Wesley's a
01:24:18
bright cookie. >> Yeah. He was very much he gave me the same feeling as you just like feels like
01:24:21
a really happy person very sort of content rounded well >> there are many of us
01:24:25
>> but it seems to be a trend that you know a lot of the Christian apologists that
01:24:28
I've interviewed have that anchoring that >> yes >> so many of us are looking for
01:24:33
>> there's a real sense of that you know I sit in front of many people and of
01:24:40
course they often ask me questions I don't even understand but in life that peace is very important to
01:24:50
me and also what we started with when I look at you I see someone who's of infinite value made in the image of God
01:25:00
and so what I say to you or think about you is hugely important to me and I wish
01:25:07
you well >> thank you um I highly recommend I mean you've written so many books I I don't
01:25:12
have all of them here but I have a long list of them but I highly recommend everybody goes and checks out your
01:25:16
autobiography which is your most recent works. >> Yeah. >> Um it's called John Lennox and I'm gonna
01:25:22
link it below. It's a spiritual and intellectual autobiography that I think is highly fascinating to read because of
01:25:28
how diverse your thinking and skill sets are. But also this wonderful I mean you
01:25:33
wrote if people are interested in the subject of AI then I highly >> then they should read 2084.
01:25:37
>> I'll link 2084 below as well. That's 2084 artificial intelligence in the
01:25:41
future of humanity. Um, and I highly recommend everybody goes and reads both books because they you are a truly
01:25:49
um, fascinating person with a very unique skill stack and experience stack and perspective. Fascinating. Thank you
01:25:54
so much, John. >> Oh, thank you. >> YouTube have this new crazy algorithm
01:25:58
where they know exactly what video you would like to watch next based on AI and all of your viewing behavior. And the
01:26:04
algorithm says that this video is the perfect video for you. It's different for everybody looking right now. Check
01:26:11
this video out. I bet you you might love