00:00:00
There are worship groups that worship AI
00:00:03
because it's got some of the qualities
00:00:05
we normally associate with God. And some
00:00:08
people welcome this and say this is the
00:00:10
way we should go. But the danger is we
00:00:12
treat these human robots as if they're
00:00:14
conscious beings. This is a seriously
00:00:17
important thing and I do feel that the
00:00:19
Christian faith has a great deal to say
00:00:21
about this
00:00:22
>> and it's fascinating to me that you are
00:00:24
very religious. You believe in God
00:00:25
because typically I think that
00:00:27
mathematicians lean more towards
00:00:28
atheism. The great pioneers of modern
00:00:32
science were all believers in God. And
00:00:35
I've interrogated myself about its truth
00:00:37
for over 70 years. I've made myself
00:00:40
totally vulnerable. And I found that
00:00:42
Christ offers me something nobody else
00:00:44
offers me. Peace in my heart. The peace
00:00:47
of knowing that I have real forgiveness.
00:00:50
Things like for example, God has met
00:00:52
people even in death row. And I never
00:00:54
forget looking through the door for
00:00:56
Russian security death row. I went up to
00:00:59
the door and a chap came over and looked
00:01:01
at me. He killed 12 women and he said,
00:01:03
"I deserve to be here." And then his
00:01:06
face just bursted into what I can only
00:01:08
describe as a ghastly smile. And he
00:01:10
said, "I met Jesus here and he forgave
00:01:12
me."
00:01:13
>> So on this point of forgiveness with the
00:01:15
serial killer be forgiven and allowed
00:01:17
into heaven and then how do you know
00:01:19
that this thing you've committed
00:01:20
yourself to is true? So I have had
00:01:23
several experiences enough to tell me
00:01:26
look this stuff is real. Okay. So
00:01:33
this is super interesting to me. My team
00:01:34
given me this report to show me how many
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of you that watch this show subscribe
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now if you've hit the subscribe button
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if you are a regular viewer of the show
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approaching quite a significant landmark
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on this show in terms of a subscriber
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number. So, if there was one simple free
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thing that you could do to help us, my
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team, everyone here to keep this show
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free, to keep it improving year over
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hit that subscribe button and to double
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ever ask of you. Do we have a deal? If
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00:02:08
I'll make sure every single week, every
00:02:11
single month, we fight harder and harder
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Please help us. Really appreciate it.
00:02:22
Let's get on with the show.
00:02:27
>> John Lennox.
00:02:28
>> Yes.
00:02:28
>> You've published over 70 peer-reviewed
00:02:31
mathematical papers, co-authored two
00:02:33
research texts at the um Oxford
00:02:34
Mathematical Monograph series, and
00:02:37
you've really become a pioneer in many
00:02:39
domains through your career. But for
00:02:41
anyone that doesn't know you, what is
00:02:43
the most important context they need to
00:02:45
understand the reference points,
00:02:46
experience, education that you're
00:02:49
pulling on that that is going to inform
00:02:52
all of the subjects we talk about today?
00:02:54
>> I mean, I've written a number of papers.
00:02:56
I got a certain amount of international
00:02:59
recognition. I chaired Oxford and all
00:03:01
the rest of it. But I think the real
00:03:04
value of that has been the training and
00:03:08
logic really saying that mathematics
00:03:12
works. The fact that it works is for me
00:03:15
one of the strongest evidences that this
00:03:18
is what I call a word-based universe. We
00:03:21
can use mathematics to describe things
00:03:24
about how the universe works. Thinking
00:03:26
God's thoughts after him, Kepler's
00:03:28
famous statement. But also we've lived
00:03:31
to see a biological revolution where we
00:03:34
discover biology is word-based as well
00:03:36
with the human genome. And that to me
00:03:40
resonates
00:03:41
with the explanation given in both the
00:03:45
old testament and the new language of
00:03:48
John's gospel. In the beginning was the
00:03:50
word.
00:03:51
>> I um I don't know a ton about the bible.
00:03:53
I do come from a religious family. So do
00:03:55
with um right
00:03:56
>> we grew up as Christians. I think I I
00:03:58
lost my faith faith at about 18 years
00:04:00
old cuz you know me and my my brothers
00:04:02
are extremely good at maths. They're
00:04:04
very
00:04:06
rational thinking maybe to a fault and I
00:04:08
think maybe I am a little bit too.
00:04:10
>> I am too.
00:04:11
>> You are. This is why I find it so
00:04:12
fascinating cuz you know typically the
00:04:14
scientific community lean more towards
00:04:16
atheism and typically I think that
00:04:18
mathematicians lean more towards
00:04:21
atheism. Just to sense check if that's
00:04:23
true or not, we'll throw the numbers up
00:04:24
on the screen. So I I find that to be a
00:04:27
fascinating conversation which I'm
00:04:28
looking forward to have with you today.
00:04:30
>> Interestingly, you wrote this book and
00:04:33
the word AI is on it. It says God, AI,
00:04:37
and the end of history. Why are you so
00:04:41
concerned, dare I say, about artificial
00:04:44
intelligence as a leading pioneer in ma
00:04:48
maths and sort of philosophical
00:04:50
thinking? Well, because I'm interested
00:04:53
in the bigger picture, anything that
00:04:57
raises questions about
00:05:00
the nature of human identity. And I was
00:05:04
first struck by the drive for artificial
00:05:08
general intelligence. It's really become
00:05:10
one of the it looks as if it's the prime
00:05:12
motivation of people like Sam Alman and
00:05:15
so on. It is really hitting the
00:05:17
headlines. But within that there's the
00:05:21
notion of transhumanism.
00:05:23
>> What does that mean?
00:05:25
>> The idea is that we go beyond the human.
00:05:28
One of our most famous astronomers,
00:05:31
Royal, he put it this way. He says in
00:05:34
the distant future, it won't be organic
00:05:37
brains, it'll be machine brains. And he
00:05:40
seriously believes, as do a number of
00:05:43
scientists who are not science fiction
00:05:44
authors, that there will be some kind of
00:05:48
merger between humanity and machines to
00:05:52
have a transhuman, something that's
00:05:54
beyond the human and something that is,
00:05:57
they hope, super intelligent, got all
00:06:01
the human properties and much more. Now,
00:06:06
one of the people who is spreading that
00:06:08
kind of transhumanist vision is the
00:06:11
Israeli historian Yuval Noah Hari. And
00:06:15
he's written a book called Homodos, the
00:06:18
man God. And that really made me prick
00:06:22
up my ears because I know enough about
00:06:25
this book here, the Bible, to realize
00:06:27
that the drive for humans towards
00:06:31
selfdeification
00:06:33
is
00:06:33
>> selfdeification. Yes, making themselves
00:06:35
gods. And you see it all through
00:06:38
history. The ancient Babylonian emperors
00:06:41
were regarded as gods. The Roman
00:06:43
emperors started calling themselves gods
00:06:45
and all the rest of it. And what Harari
00:06:48
says is the 21st century has two big
00:06:53
purposes. Number one, to solve the
00:06:57
problem of physical death as a technical
00:07:00
problem
00:07:00
>> to solve death.
00:07:01
>> Yes. Solve death. Physical death is in
00:07:04
his view technical problem and we'll
00:07:06
solve it. The second agenda item and he
00:07:09
calls them agenda items of the 21st
00:07:11
century is to increase human happiness
00:07:16
by bioengineering,
00:07:18
cyborg engineering, mechanical implants,
00:07:22
all this kind of thing and turning
00:07:24
humans quote into gods with a small G.
00:07:29
In other words, this is the drive for a
00:07:32
super intelligent human. We've only got
00:07:35
started. And his point is, and from his
00:07:38
atheist perspective, one can understand
00:07:41
it immediately. Evolution, unguided
00:07:44
natural processes have brought us to
00:07:46
this point. Now, we're going to take it
00:07:48
into our hands and we're going to
00:07:50
engineer humanity into the future very
00:07:54
rapidly to approach this superhuman
00:07:58
thing. Now I hear that and I see that
00:08:02
but I see that as huge implications
00:08:06
for one of the fundamental teachings
00:08:09
that's behind I would argue western
00:08:13
civilization
00:08:15
and that is the notion that humans like
00:08:20
us are made in the image of God as
00:08:23
rational moral beings. Now, I got into
00:08:26
this because some Christian leaders
00:08:29
wanted to have a conference on AI and
00:08:32
they wanted it introduced from someone
00:08:35
who knew something about the teaching of
00:08:38
the image of God in Genesis and who had
00:08:41
a scientific background and who could
00:08:43
perhaps begin to lead them in to what
00:08:46
was going on in the AI field around. And
00:08:50
once I got into it, I realized this is a
00:08:53
seriously important thing because
00:08:56
we haven't got to artificial general
00:08:59
intelligence yet. That's still a pipe
00:09:01
dream, but it's improving all the time,
00:09:05
but we've got far enough. that is to
00:09:08
what's called narrow AGI which most of
00:09:11
the stuff that works is
00:09:14
and that is posing a threat to human
00:09:18
beings at all kinds of levels and I
00:09:21
began to see that that was seriously
00:09:23
important for everybody to take on
00:09:25
board. So I wrote two books, one 2020
00:09:29
called uh 2084 is the title of my book,
00:09:33
artificial intelligence and the future
00:09:35
of humanity and then the publishers
00:09:40
asked me to update it in 2024. So
00:09:42
there's a second edition twice as big
00:09:45
and it is my main work on AI. That is
00:09:47
not that is a work on the book of
00:09:49
revelation with reference to AI. The
00:09:52
other is directly going into AI,
00:09:55
pointing out its values which I think
00:09:58
are immense particularly in medicine but
00:10:01
pointing out its dangers which I think
00:10:04
are immense for bringing about a state
00:10:07
in the world that none of us I think
00:10:09
want.
00:10:09
>> So let me just give some definitions
00:10:11
then.
00:10:11
>> Yeah, sure.
00:10:12
>> You use the term narrow AI.
00:10:14
>> Yes. Um, my definition of that is, and
00:10:16
I'll put something on the screen for
00:10:18
those of you watching, is AI that's
00:10:20
focused on solving a very particular
00:10:22
problem. So, AIs that might be able to
00:10:24
diagnose lung cancer or that do some
00:10:27
sort of um biometric data on your Apple
00:10:30
Watch, very focused on solving a
00:10:32
particular problem. AGI is artificial
00:10:35
general intelligence which is what's
00:10:37
being built at the moment and all the
00:10:38
big AI companies are in a race to
00:10:40
accomplish which is a machine that could
00:10:42
do any intellectual task a human can
00:10:44
faster than any human um and would be
00:10:47
super intelligent. So you know maybe one
00:10:49
way to think about it it would have a
00:10:51
PhD in everything
00:10:53
that's a very fair summary. narrow AI
00:10:56
system does one and only one thing that
00:11:00
normally requires human intelligence.
00:11:04
AGI does the lot and more. You wrote
00:11:08
this book 2084. You highlighted in there
00:11:10
some of the concerns that you think are
00:11:11
being overlooked in this race for AGI at
00:11:15
the moment.
00:11:16
>> Well, they're not overlooked by
00:11:17
everybody. There is huge concern.
00:11:20
There's been a very interesting book
00:11:21
published not long ago by Karen How. Oh,
00:11:24
she was young. She's fantastic.
00:11:26
>> Well, there you are. And she has got
00:11:29
some very interesting metaphors, the
00:11:32
pursuit of the machine God, which I
00:11:34
think is a brilliant summary of what's
00:11:36
going on. And I found it very
00:11:39
illuminating because she's obviously got
00:11:41
very close to the the major operators in
00:11:44
this. But if I step back from it, I look
00:11:47
at AI like a knife. A good knife. You
00:11:51
can use it for surgery or you can use it
00:11:53
for murder.
00:11:55
And that leads us into it immediately.
00:11:58
AI narrow brilliant for picking out a
00:12:02
terrorist in a football crowd. Also
00:12:04
brilliant for suppressing a minority in
00:12:07
China and bringing in a totalitarian
00:12:10
state through social credit systems and
00:12:12
all the rest of it. And in a way, we're
00:12:17
sleepwalking into a future where we are
00:12:21
gradually seeding control and
00:12:24
information and data all the time which
00:12:29
could be used by bad actors against us.
00:12:32
And this is the problem.
00:12:34
>> I I really this question of um what it
00:12:36
means to be human in a world of AI, I
00:12:38
think has been really front of mind for
00:12:39
a lot of people. like where do we live
00:12:42
or exist or find our purpose in a world
00:12:44
where theoretically these super
00:12:47
intelligent systems will reach AGI which
00:12:49
means they're more intelligent
00:12:51
theoretically than any human on Earth
00:12:53
but at the same time you've got these
00:12:55
other um advancements in technology like
00:12:57
humanoid robots
00:12:59
>> where these humanoid robots there was a
00:13:00
live stream I've talked about a few
00:13:01
times and I'll just throw it up on the
00:13:03
screen really quickly that shows last
00:13:05
week a humanoid robot working on a
00:13:07
production line for eight days straight
00:13:09
and they show it up against a human
00:13:11
being and it beats the human being on
00:13:13
the production line because it doesn't
00:13:15
need to sleep. It just needs to be
00:13:17
charged for a couple of hours to full
00:13:19
power. And so you combine these two
00:13:21
forces, super intelligence and the
00:13:23
disruption, you know, you can think of
00:13:25
it like one is disrupting
00:13:28
this thing here, the brain and the
00:13:30
intelligence within the brain. And then
00:13:32
the other technology that's emerged at
00:13:34
the same time is disrupting
00:13:38
my muscles and my mechanics and the two
00:13:40
come together to make voila.
00:13:43
>> Absolutely. So you face joblessness at
00:13:46
all kinds of levels and people are only
00:13:49
going beginning to realize the
00:13:51
implications of that and they're not
00:13:52
just low-level repetitive jobs as high
00:13:55
level jobs like lawyers and there's a
00:13:58
deepseated
00:14:00
ethical problem running through all of
00:14:02
this and it's a very simple one. It's
00:14:04
that technology advances much faster
00:14:07
than the ethics that's needed to
00:14:09
underpin it.
00:14:10
And the difficulty is the people that
00:14:13
have all the power will say, "Well, we
00:14:15
need some ethical control of all of
00:14:17
this, but we need to get on with the
00:14:19
research to make it safe for you. So,
00:14:21
let us get on with it." And you can be a
00:14:25
bit skeptical about the motivation
00:14:27
there. It's a colossal power grab. And I
00:14:32
do feel that
00:14:34
uh the Christian faith has a great deal
00:14:36
to say to this arms race if you like the
00:14:42
power that is being forced in to having
00:14:46
a technology that becomes the ultimate
00:14:49
source of truth. Now those two concepts
00:14:52
power and truth clashed centuries ago in
00:14:55
a very famous trial and it's the trial
00:14:58
of Jesus. And I used to wonder a lot,
00:15:00
you know, why is there such detail about
00:15:04
the trial of Jesus until I realized what
00:15:07
it was about? Jesus was put on trial for
00:15:11
political terrorism to put it in modern
00:15:13
terminology. He was a threat to the
00:15:16
Roman power base. And Pilate, the
00:15:20
governor at the time, put him on trial
00:15:22
and conducted the trial himself, which
00:15:25
was most unusual, and said, "Are you a
00:15:27
king?" And Jesus looked at him and said,
00:15:30
"Well, not in the sense you mean. To
00:15:34
this end I was born, and to this end I
00:15:36
came into the world that I would bear
00:15:37
witness to the truth." And Pilate
00:15:41
famously responded, "What is truth?" and
00:15:44
went out and declared Jesus innocent of
00:15:46
the charge. And then he said to him just
00:15:50
a bit later, "Don't you know I have
00:15:52
power to crucify you?" And Jesus quietly
00:15:56
said, "You would have no power against
00:15:58
me unless it been given to you from
00:16:00
above." So there's one of the most
00:16:02
famous confrontations between power and
00:16:05
truth. And that statement that Jesus
00:16:09
made, I have come to bear witness to the
00:16:12
truth. I regard that as the main
00:16:14
motivation for my life. I'm trying to
00:16:16
bear witness to truth as I see it at all
00:16:19
kinds of levels in my own limited way.
00:16:23
And that's what bothers me about AI.
00:16:26
It's a reductionist. We're reducing
00:16:28
people to machines. And you said to me a
00:16:32
few moments ago that flagged up a thing
00:16:35
in my mind that's very important. We
00:16:37
need to be very clear what AI is and
00:16:40
what it isn't. This is a machine.
00:16:44
Machines do not think. Machines do not
00:16:48
have quailia. They do not understand the
00:16:51
redness of red. They do not experience
00:16:54
emotion. They have no consciousness.
00:16:59
And you see, I believe that the genius
00:17:01
of God is that he's made you and me and
00:17:04
he's connected in us consciousness and
00:17:09
intelligence.
00:17:11
The machines are not conscious, but they
00:17:14
simulate intelligence. And the experts
00:17:17
are very clear that they're not trying
00:17:20
to construct intelligence for a very
00:17:22
simple reason. They have no idea what
00:17:24
consciousness is from a scientific point
00:17:26
of view, but they're trying to simulate
00:17:29
intelligence and go as far as they can.
00:17:33
And therefore, the danger is we
00:17:36
anthropomorphize everything. We treat
00:17:39
them as if they're conscious beings. And
00:17:42
we need to step back and realize that we
00:17:45
are conscious beings. And that gives us
00:17:47
a supreme dignity and value to reduce
00:17:51
ourselves to merely machines or on the
00:17:54
other hand merely animals is to demean
00:17:57
our value. And then where are you going
00:17:59
to get value from?
00:18:01
>> I've got a quote here that's um linked
00:18:03
to what you just said. It's from Uvel
00:18:04
Noah Harrari who you mentioned. He says,
00:18:07
"Humans are now hackable animals."
00:18:09
>> Yes.
00:18:09
>> The whole idea that humans have this
00:18:11
soul or spirit and they have free will
00:18:14
and nobody knows what's happening inside
00:18:15
them, that is over. And Sam Alolman
00:18:20
said, "The most successful founders do
00:18:21
not set out to create companies. They
00:18:23
are on a mission to create something
00:18:24
closer to a religion. And at some point,
00:18:26
it turns out that forming a company is
00:18:28
the easiest way to do so." And lastly, a
00:18:31
former Google engineer said, "What is
00:18:33
going to be created will effectively be
00:18:35
a god. It's not a god in the sense that
00:18:37
it will will make lightning or cause
00:18:39
hurricanes, but if there is something a
00:18:42
billion times smarter than the smartest
00:18:44
human, what else can you call it?"
00:18:47
>> It's odd. Thank you for quoting that
00:18:49
because I was going to quote it to you.
00:18:51
the the Saballet's point about about
00:18:54
making a religion and that is what is
00:18:57
happening and people have pointed out
00:18:59
the obvious here you have a system even
00:19:01
now that has got some of the qualities
00:19:04
we normally associate with God it
00:19:07
appears to be omnisient you can ask it
00:19:09
any question it is omniresent through
00:19:12
the internet etc etc and therefore
00:19:16
already there are worship groups to
00:19:19
worship AI high. And some people welcome
00:19:22
this and say, "Well, this is the way we
00:19:24
should go." And other people say, "Just
00:19:26
wait a moment. There's something very
00:19:29
strange going on here." And in the end,
00:19:32
you are bowing down to something that in
00:19:35
the end is idolatrous because it is less
00:19:38
than God. But it's very tempting to do
00:19:41
that.
00:19:42
>> I mean, people are basically praying to
00:19:43
it now. They're confiding in a in a way
00:19:45
that they might have.
00:19:46
>> Absolutely. Doing it. And you know, I'm
00:19:49
fascinated by this. I've never seen one
00:19:51
of these before, but I like it. And I
00:19:53
tell you why I like it.
00:19:54
>> So, for people that can't see what we're
00:19:56
doing, it's a brain.
00:19:57
>> It's a brain, and it's got two halves.
00:20:01
And one of the people who've influenced
00:20:04
my thinking about AI a lot
00:20:07
is uh Dr. Ian McIchrist, the author of
00:20:11
this fascinating book called The Matter
00:20:13
with Things. And he has studied the fact
00:20:16
that this brain has two hemispheres,
00:20:19
>> two halves. Both halves are involved in
00:20:22
almost every cognitive event. But the
00:20:25
two different halves have different ways
00:20:28
of paying attention to the world. One is
00:20:32
narrow focus, the left side of the
00:20:33
brain, and the other is the big picture.
00:20:37
And he says what has happened
00:20:38
historically in the west is for the last
00:20:40
five or so hundred years we have
00:20:43
concentrated on the narrow rationalist
00:20:47
reductionist left side of the brain and
00:20:51
we've forgotten the right side that
00:20:53
contextualizes everything. So that quote
00:20:57
we now find ourselves in a world where
00:21:00
we understand how almost everything
00:21:02
works but we know the meaning of
00:21:04
nothing. And what he calls for is to
00:21:08
open this sphere up. And of course that
00:21:11
includes to beauty, culture, art, music,
00:21:15
and religion. Step by step, he appears
00:21:18
to be creating more room for God because
00:21:23
God makes sense of the space he feels is
00:21:27
very necessary to fulfill. And I find
00:21:31
that absolutely fascinating. And you
00:21:33
probably noticed it too. the number of
00:21:35
intellectuals who are step by step
00:21:38
taking the Christian faith more
00:21:40
seriously as giving a rational account
00:21:43
of what's going on that makes very big
00:21:46
sense of the big picture
00:21:48
>> what is going on in society because it
00:21:50
does feel like more and more people have
00:21:52
these sort of existential questions
00:21:54
about meaning and they might be turning
00:21:56
to Christianity or Islam or other but
00:21:58
what is from a 30,000 foot perspective
00:22:01
happening to us which is making us ask
00:22:03
some of these questions
00:22:05
And for you know younger generations it
00:22:06
might be spirituality however they
00:22:08
define that but there's certainly a
00:22:10
macro picture here of something
00:22:12
happening.
00:22:12
>> Oh there is I agree with you entirely
00:22:14
and I think it's because we've had
00:22:17
pushed at us for too long a very
00:22:20
reductionist view of the world. It's
00:22:22
nothing but physics and chemistry. It's
00:22:24
nothing but this is that. And people
00:22:27
rightly feel it's too small a world to
00:22:29
live in. They're looking to break out of
00:22:31
this. Isn't there a bigger picture that
00:22:34
can make sense of my world and make
00:22:37
sense of my life and giving some
00:22:39
meaning? Because if you reduce
00:22:42
everything, it ends up in a black hole
00:22:44
of meaninglessness.
00:22:46
And that's one of my uh top reasons for
00:22:49
not being an atheist because it destroys
00:22:52
rationality by almost by definition
00:22:55
because it tells me that my brain which
00:22:58
does all the thinking it's not my mind
00:23:01
it's connected and those are two
00:23:03
different things and that's another big
00:23:04
story but this is the end product of a
00:23:08
mindless unguided
00:23:10
uh process and I have fun with
00:23:12
scientists you know sometimes I ask them
00:23:15
uh about the brain and how it arose and
00:23:18
they tell me something like that and I
00:23:19
said and you trust it. Tell me if the
00:23:24
computer that you use every day if you
00:23:27
knew it was the end product of a random
00:23:30
process would you trust it? Every single
00:23:33
scientist and some of them are very
00:23:35
highowered that I've asked that question
00:23:38
to have said no I would not. So I say
00:23:41
you've got a problem haven't you? Your
00:23:43
atheism goes too far. It undermines the
00:23:48
very rationality we need to do science,
00:23:52
let alone to believe in atheism. And
00:23:55
that's my main beef with people like
00:23:58
Richard Dawkins and the new atheists.
00:24:00
But I see they're fading. They're
00:24:02
fading. So here's the irony. Atheism
00:24:05
claiming rationality destroys it.
00:24:09
Whereas I believe the Christian faith
00:24:11
also claims rationality in in the sense
00:24:14
that evidence-based we shout about that
00:24:18
a lot in science and medicine and
00:24:20
rightly so. What we trust in ought to be
00:24:22
evidence-based. I claim exactly the same
00:24:25
thing for Christianity and that's why
00:24:27
I'm a Christian because I believe the
00:24:29
evidence supports it otherwise I
00:24:31
wouldn't.
00:24:32
>> So I guess how do I identify? Maybe as
00:24:36
someone that's agnostic, like I'm I
00:24:37
don't really know.
00:24:38
>> Well, that's okay.
00:24:41
But does that mean you're open to know?
00:24:44
You'd like to know?
00:24:45
>> Yes.
00:24:45
>> Well, that's I'm always open.
00:24:47
>> That's that's wonderful to see. That's
00:24:50
that seems to me to be exactly the right
00:24:53
attitude. Jesus actually challenged
00:24:56
someone in his day and says if anyone
00:24:59
wants to do the will of God he shall
00:25:02
know of the teaching whether I'm
00:25:05
speaking from myself or whether it's
00:25:07
from God. I notice what he doesn't say.
00:25:10
He doesn't say if anyone wants to know
00:25:13
he will know. If anyone wants to do he
00:25:16
will know. And the difference between
00:25:18
the two, and I'd be interested in your
00:25:20
response to it, is that being prepared
00:25:23
to do something when you know it is more
00:25:26
than just knowing it and possibly just
00:25:28
leaving it on the table. In other words,
00:25:32
Jesus is interested in people who are
00:25:34
going to take the step of trust and
00:25:36
following him. And that's the big deal.
00:25:39
>> There should be a button just down below
00:25:41
here. And if it says subscribed, you're
00:25:43
already subscribed. If it says
00:25:45
subscriber, that means you're not yet.
00:25:47
And if you're not subscribed, please
00:25:48
could you do us a favor and hit that
00:25:49
button? It helps the show more than you
00:25:51
know. And according to the algorithm,
00:25:53
you're someone that watches our show,
00:25:54
but you haven't yet hit that button.
00:25:56
Thank you so much.
00:25:57
>> Do you know what it is? I find all I
00:25:58
find all explanations as to like the
00:26:00
bigger picture to be like fundamentally
00:26:03
incomplete.
00:26:03
>> Yes.
00:26:04
>> Because there's many things you said
00:26:06
about the nature of Christianity and
00:26:07
religion that I go amazing. Yes. Yes.
00:26:09
Yes. And then there's a couple of things
00:26:10
I go well. Uh, and the same when I sit
00:26:13
here with a physicist that's telling me
00:26:14
about the big bang. Yes.
00:26:15
>> I have the same thing where I'm going,
00:26:16
"Yes, yes, of course, yes. Oh, we've got
00:26:18
evidence that the universe is
00:26:19
expanding." Okay. And then they'll say
00:26:21
other things and I go, "Well, that's not
00:26:23
complete."
00:26:24
>> And so, I find myself sat on the fence.
00:26:26
I would love you to convince me. I mean,
00:26:28
it's not your responsibility to do so,
00:26:30
but where does that journey of of
00:26:33
believing begin for someone like me?
00:26:36
Because, you know, people say the Bible,
00:26:38
and I go, "Well, it's kind of like what
00:26:40
you said about the computers. It's like
00:26:42
if you're using something to justify the
00:26:45
same thing is true.
00:26:46
>> Yes.
00:26:47
>> Then that circular reasoning I find to
00:26:49
be incomplete. Cuz I could write on this
00:26:50
piece of paper, uh, Steven Butler is a
00:26:53
lizard.
00:26:53
>> Yes.
00:26:54
>> And
00:26:56
this piece of paper is true. And then
00:27:01
you then use that same piece of paper to
00:27:02
justify the validity of that same piece
00:27:04
of paper.
00:27:05
>> Mhm.
00:27:05
>> And I go, well, that's not solid
00:27:07
reasoning.
00:27:08
>> No. But you see, I could say, Stephen
00:27:12
Bartlett, there's a red Ferrari parked
00:27:15
in the street outside.
00:27:17
>> Yeah.
00:27:18
>> And it's yours if you want to take it.
00:27:21
We could sit and discuss it for a
00:27:24
thousand years. You would never know
00:27:26
whether I was true or not unless you
00:27:28
went and looked.
00:27:30
>> And it seems to me the word skeptic is a
00:27:33
very interesting one. I regard myself as
00:27:35
a skeptic. But in Greek, skept means to
00:27:39
look at something from a distance. Now,
00:27:43
if you are ever going to get to know a
00:27:47
person,
00:27:49
you've got to begin to give up your
00:27:52
distance. You will know that from
00:27:54
everyday life. And it seems to me one of
00:27:58
the things to try to begin to grasp is
00:28:00
God is not a proposition or a philosophy
00:28:03
or even a religion. God is a person. And
00:28:06
as a person, he has entered our world.
00:28:09
However incredible that may seem.
00:28:12
Although this is the irony of the
00:28:14
Harrari position, if I might just say it
00:28:16
on a side, people come to me as they've
00:28:19
done with their transhumanist agenda and
00:28:21
say, you know, we're going to solve the
00:28:23
problem of death and we're going to
00:28:26
increase human happiness. And I look at
00:28:28
them and I smile. I say, you're too
00:28:30
late. And they say, "What? We haven't
00:28:32
got there yet." I said, "You're too
00:28:34
late." What do you mean we're too late?
00:28:36
Well, I said the problem of physical
00:28:37
death was solved when God raised Christ
00:28:40
from the dead 20 centuries ago. And as
00:28:43
for human happiness and uploading us
00:28:46
into eternity, you know, I'm waiting for
00:28:49
the biggest uploading that's ever going
00:28:51
to happen in history when Christ returns
00:28:53
and raises me from the dead because that
00:28:56
is precisely what he promises. And it's
00:28:58
most interesting watching people and I
00:29:01
say, "Isn't it fascinating that your
00:29:04
transhumanism consists in humans
00:29:07
reaching out to become little gods?"
00:29:10
Whereas Christianity is the exact
00:29:12
opposite. It talks about a god who
00:29:14
became human so that he could give us
00:29:17
life and give us a new relationship with
00:29:20
him. What really completes the circle
00:29:24
for me is that my relationship with God
00:29:29
is a relationship which is based on the
00:29:33
solution to the really hard problem. And
00:29:37
that is the problem that I
00:29:40
by nature have not always done good and
00:29:45
by my own standards I have failed. Now
00:29:48
all this talk of transhumanism, AI and
00:29:51
everything else, what it's trying to do
00:29:53
is to build paradise, utopia without
00:29:56
facing the problem of the damage that
00:29:59
humans have caused to themselves and one
00:30:01
another. They will not face the sin
00:30:03
problem. Christianity
00:30:06
to me doesn't compete with any anything
00:30:08
else because Christ offers me something
00:30:12
nobody else offers me. Nobody else
00:30:14
offers me peace. The peace of knowing
00:30:17
that I have real forgiveness. The peace
00:30:20
of knowing that I have a friend and a
00:30:23
companion to whom I can talk all the
00:30:24
time. That's been so meaningful in my
00:30:26
life as I spell out in detail my
00:30:28
autobiography.
00:30:30
And the peace of having been given a new
00:30:32
life that will not end when I die. I'm
00:30:36
82 now. I'm probably more than twice as
00:30:39
old as you are. As I look towards the
00:30:41
future, I have in my heart a certainty.
00:30:45
Not because I've merited it. The exact
00:30:48
opposite. Because I couldn't merit it,
00:30:51
but because Christ has done something
00:30:54
for me through the cross and the
00:30:56
resurrection. That may sound all mumbo
00:30:58
jumbo at the moment, but has done
00:31:00
something that enables me to have a
00:31:02
relationship that is secure, that floods
00:31:06
over the whole of life and has made my
00:31:08
life what it is for the last 70 years,
00:31:12
more or less. I think everybody,
00:31:14
especially in a world that's getting
00:31:15
increasingly lonely and disconnected and
00:31:17
isolated for many reasons,
00:31:20
>> is looking for that secure relationship.
00:31:21
>> They are.
00:31:22
>> They're looking for their own, you know,
00:31:24
a home that can't fall down.
00:31:26
>> Yes.
00:31:27
>> Yes. And a peace that doesn't fade and a
00:31:30
an inheritance that doesn't Exactly.
00:31:32
You're right.
00:31:33
>> If I could choose that, if I could press
00:31:35
a button and have it, I would have it.
00:31:38
But there's this other part of my brain
00:31:40
which
00:31:43
will naturally interrogate whether it's
00:31:44
real
00:31:45
>> or it's true.
00:31:46
>> You're absolutely right. Why am I
00:31:48
sitting in front of you talking about
00:31:50
this stuff? Because I've interrogated
00:31:52
myself about it and its truth for over
00:31:56
70 years.
00:31:58
I've made myself totally vulnerable.
00:32:01
That's why I got into all the debates
00:32:02
with you atheists and all the rest of it
00:32:04
because I want to be sure. But it won't
00:32:07
come about by pressing a button. It will
00:32:12
come about if you're open enough to say,
00:32:15
"God, I'm open. Reveal yourself to me,
00:32:18
and I'm prepared to take the steps that
00:32:22
I feel are leading me onto solid ground.
00:32:25
I do not believe that this is a process
00:32:27
of taking a leap into the dark, but it's
00:32:30
making a commitment on the basis of what
00:32:32
you know already and taking a step
00:32:34
further forward." And the interesting
00:32:37
thing about this is
00:32:40
the trust that's at the heart of
00:32:42
everything.
00:32:44
I trust my wife. I've been married to
00:32:47
her for 58 years this year. It's
00:32:50
evidence-based trust. I don't trust her
00:32:53
for no reason. And the same is true of
00:32:57
my friends, as would be the case with
00:32:59
you. evidence-based trust in science and
00:33:04
in Christian things. I don't regard
00:33:06
myself as religious particularly and the
00:33:09
reason is this and it's an important
00:33:12
reason. Most religions prescribe a moral
00:33:16
way that you try to follow and you've
00:33:18
teachers, gurus, imams, all the rest,
00:33:21
priests to keep you on the way and then
00:33:23
you come to a judgment at the end. And I
00:33:26
usually draw a scale of justice. And if
00:33:28
your good deeds tip over the bad deeds,
00:33:31
then you get in to whatever it is,
00:33:32
heaven, nirvana, all the rest of that's
00:33:34
religion. It's not Christianity, though
00:33:36
many people think it is. Because if you
00:33:39
ask them, are you a Christian? and say,
00:33:41
"Well, I do my best and I hope that God
00:33:43
will be kind." That isn't Christianity.
00:33:46
It's the exact opposite of Christianity.
00:33:49
That's a meritbased religion.
00:33:53
And you see
00:33:56
the irony of all this is that we would
00:34:01
never at least I don't know some people
00:34:04
might but in a human relationship
00:34:07
we don't base our affection and
00:34:10
relationship with someone on the basis
00:34:12
of their merit. I have a little analogy
00:34:14
I use that sometimes tickles people's
00:34:16
minds. I say that I met a beautiful girl
00:34:19
on my second day at Cambridge. I'd been
00:34:22
warned she might be there. And she was
00:34:24
sitting in church. And
00:34:28
I decided that I'd like to marry her. So
00:34:31
I bought the most expensive cookery book
00:34:33
I could. And uh I came and I handed to
00:34:36
her and she said, "What's that?" Well, I
00:34:38
said, "You know, we have a interesting
00:34:40
tradition in our family, you see. Uh and
00:34:43
if anybody gets married, they give the
00:34:45
potential bride a cookbook. Why?" Well,
00:34:48
look at page 152. Here's the the laws
00:34:51
for making an apple cake. And I like
00:34:53
apple cake. So law 1 22 two2 take so
00:34:56
much flour sugar. Now I said it's going
00:34:58
to be like this. If you keep those rules
00:35:02
for the next, let's be generous 40 years
00:35:04
or so. I will accept you otherwise you
00:35:07
can go back to your mother. Now when I
00:35:09
say that to an audience, they rock about
00:35:11
with laughter. But it's exactly the way
00:35:14
many of them have been taught to think
00:35:17
about God. keep the rules as best as you
00:35:19
can and hope that God is generous. When
00:35:23
actually I did no such thing. I've given
00:35:26
my wife several cookbooks, but they're
00:35:29
not the basis of the relationship. And
00:35:31
because the relationship is based on
00:35:34
acceptance that comes at the start of
00:35:36
the common journey, it sets her free to
00:35:39
live and do other things that she wants
00:35:42
to do. And I have noticed often that
00:35:45
once people begin to realize that
00:35:47
they're beginning to understand a basic
00:35:49
concept which is grace that God does
00:35:53
everything and if we trust him he it is
00:35:58
that gives us the certainty. So it's not
00:36:01
arrogance to accept it from him. It's
00:36:03
arrogance actually to reject and say oh
00:36:06
no no I'll go my own way and I'll try my
00:36:08
best and hope that you will accept me.
00:36:10
And the heart of the Christian message
00:36:13
which I believe is there is that the
00:36:16
trust is based on what someone else has
00:36:19
done what Christ has done not what I
00:36:21
have done and that's what's given me the
00:36:23
power and as I said earlier completed
00:36:26
the circle and enabled me to live.
00:36:31
>> That was a a really beautiful
00:36:33
description and definition of what what
00:36:35
the Christian faith is about.
00:36:38
It still leaves me with a question about
00:36:41
whether it's true
00:36:42
>> and this is the sort of central question
00:36:44
that I need to find my way over.
00:36:45
>> Yeah, I agree with you.
00:36:47
>> Absolutely.
00:36:48
>> And this is I find myself often I've sat
00:36:51
with a few um like Christian apologists
00:36:53
and asked them similar questions about
00:36:54
like how do I know if it's true?
00:36:57
And I guess so so far I've got you know
00:36:59
if there's a red Ferrari outside you'd
00:37:01
have to go outside and see for yourself.
00:37:02
That's the only way you're going to
00:37:03
know. But what how do you know that this
00:37:07
thing you've committed yourself to and
00:37:08
you've believed and you know talked
00:37:10
about for 70 years of your life is true
00:37:14
and could it be the case that it's not
00:37:15
true?
00:37:16
>> Okay, let's handle that. That's a hugely
00:37:19
important question. I have two
00:37:22
approaches to this which I call roughly
00:37:24
speaking objective and subjective.
00:37:27
And it depends entirely where someone's
00:37:29
coming from. They may start very far
00:37:32
back and say, "Look, we read about this
00:37:34
chap Jesus. How do we know he ever
00:37:35
existed?" Well, then you go to the
00:37:37
ancient historians and you find that
00:37:39
most of them, whether they're atheists
00:37:40
or not, believe that he existed and so
00:37:43
on.
00:37:43
>> I accept that he existed.
00:37:45
>> Yes. Yeah.
00:37:46
>> Okay. Well, that's a good start. You
00:37:48
know, some of the disciples when Jesus
00:37:50
rose from the dead, they just didn't
00:37:51
believe the story. Ridiculous. And
00:37:54
there's a famous story of Thomas who
00:37:57
said to the others, he said, "Unless I
00:37:59
see the marks in his hands and so on, I
00:38:01
won't believe." And then Jesus stood
00:38:02
among them and
00:38:05
he didn't make fun of Thomas's
00:38:08
objective. He said, "Thomas, come and
00:38:10
have a look." You never know what
00:38:12
swimming is until you get into the
00:38:14
water.
00:38:16
Isn't that true?
00:38:17
>> It is true. And all I can say is that
00:38:21
step by step, keep asking your
00:38:24
questions. Absolutely.
00:38:27
I don't believe that God will ever ask
00:38:29
us to take a step with which we should
00:38:32
be uncomfortable. I just don't believe
00:38:34
that.
00:38:35
>> Could you be wrong that Christianity So
00:38:37
could it be the case that Christianity
00:38:40
was
00:38:42
was about a real guy called Jesus? uh
00:38:44
based on a real guy called Jesus. But
00:38:46
the stories told, you know, there was
00:38:48
decades passed between the things that
00:38:50
happened and people
00:38:51
>> not so much as you'd think actually.
00:38:53
>> What for four decades for the first
00:38:54
time?
00:38:54
>> When you when you say to me, could you
00:38:56
be wrong? My academic mind says
00:39:00
theoretically, yes. But practically, no.
00:39:04
Could I be wrong? It would be like
00:39:06
asking me, John, you know, you've been
00:39:08
married to Sally for 58 years. Could you
00:39:11
be wrong that she loves you? Well,
00:39:14
theoretically, yes, but actually the
00:39:18
evidence all points in the other
00:39:20
direction. And that's what I would say
00:39:22
that I have built up in my life. And I'd
00:39:26
love you to ask me that question when
00:39:28
you've read that autobiography.
00:39:30
>> Why would you think it would read?
00:39:31
>> Because I I think what I relate there is
00:39:34
enough evidence for someone outside
00:39:36
who's skeptical to say there may well be
00:39:40
something in that. But in the end, you
00:39:42
won't know until you step into the water
00:39:47
and then you find that Christ is there
00:39:49
to catch you.
00:39:50
>> And what did you find in the water when
00:39:51
you stepped into the water?
00:39:52
>> Well, I was very young. You see, my
00:39:56
parents taught me quite clearly that I
00:39:59
wasn't born a Christian. You become a
00:40:02
Christian by trusting Christ. That's to
00:40:05
have somebody born or made a Christian
00:40:07
by some ceremony is absurd to my mind.
00:40:11
And so in my simple way, I responded as
00:40:15
a child. I didn't have any great
00:40:17
feelings or anything else. But what
00:40:20
happened to me as I grew, especially as
00:40:22
I I went to university in Cambridge, and
00:40:26
I decided, look, I really believe this
00:40:28
stuff is true. I'm going to stand for
00:40:31
it. And it was when I began to stand and
00:40:35
share with others that a great deal of
00:40:38
the underpinning came in and the
00:40:40
certainty came cumulatively. Not all a
00:40:44
big I've never had these big
00:40:47
flashes of anything. But I have had
00:40:50
several experiences of what I can only
00:40:53
put down to direct divine guidance and I
00:40:57
record them in the book.
00:40:59
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If I asked you to picture a Guinness
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I've got some um some of the questions
00:43:15
that really stumped me when I was so I
00:43:17
was I was Christian up until the age of
00:43:19
about 18 and then I went into the whole
00:43:21
like new atheist movement with Richard
00:43:22
Dawkins and Sam Harris and that little
00:43:24
phase of my life. But one of the stats
00:43:26
that used to get me when I went through
00:43:28
that new atheist movement
00:43:29
>> was that
00:43:31
>> globally 91% of adults simply adopt and
00:43:34
keep the religion they were raised in.
00:43:36
And if a person is born into a Hindi or
00:43:38
Muslim household, there is a 99%
00:43:41
statistical probability they will remain
00:43:42
in that faith. Only 1% switch out.
00:43:45
>> And then the argument, I think it came
00:43:47
from Dawkins or someone else, was that
00:43:50
>> is it fair that there's this birth
00:43:52
lottery determining who ends up
00:43:53
believing what or theoretically getting
00:43:56
into hell or heaven.
00:43:58
>> Yes.
00:43:59
>> Because if I was born in, I don't know,
00:44:01
Afghanistan, the probability says I'd
00:44:03
probably be Muslim.
00:44:04
>> Yeah. Well, I I take that absolutely.
00:44:07
>> So God gave you an advantage in this
00:44:09
context because he he he allowed you to
00:44:10
be born his in his all knowing all all
00:44:14
uh understanding way put you to be born
00:44:16
in a place where you were likely to be
00:44:18
Christian.
00:44:18
>> It sounds to me as if he gave the same
00:44:20
advantage to you.
00:44:23
>> So the question is what do we do with
00:44:26
that privilege? Now I know that there
00:44:29
are hard problems around the edge here.
00:44:32
There are really hard problems not only
00:44:34
where you're born and what you believe.
00:44:37
This was the argument that Peter Singer
00:44:40
advanced to be had a debate. I don't
00:44:42
know whether you've heard about it.
00:44:44
Peter Singer, you know, the Princeton
00:44:46
ethicist who really was one of the new
00:44:50
atheists but not quite very famous for
00:44:53
his views on dealing with the unborn all
00:44:56
the rest. when we had a debate in
00:44:57
Australia and I started as I always do
00:45:01
by being upfront about my background
00:45:05
and he when he got the chance to speak
00:45:07
he said well there goes my best
00:45:10
objection to religion people always stay
00:45:13
in the religion which they're brought up
00:45:15
you see when I next got a chance to
00:45:17
speak I said Peter I told the audience
00:45:22
about my Christian background but you
00:45:24
said nothing about yours now tell Were
00:45:27
your parents atheists?
00:45:29
He said they were. Oh, I said then you
00:45:32
remained in the faith in which you were
00:45:35
brought up. Oh, but he said it isn't a
00:45:37
faith. And I said, Peter, I was I was
00:45:41
convinced that you believed it. And it
00:45:43
brought the house down. Of course, this
00:45:45
the cyerspace went mad. And the point
00:45:48
was made repeatedly all over the
00:45:49
internet. Here's one of the world's top
00:45:51
philosophers. He doesn't understand that
00:45:53
his atheism is a belief system.
00:45:56
>> And the irony was the very first person
00:45:59
he met after that debate was a fellow
00:46:02
Hungarian Jew who was a friend of mine.
00:46:06
And then my friend said, "And I became a
00:46:08
Christian." So the very first person he
00:46:10
met was someone who had transitioned
00:46:13
from his background. That doesn't answer
00:46:15
your question. It's a question I ask
00:46:18
often
00:46:20
>> because God could correct this. Well,
00:46:22
this is just the point. And we have had
00:46:25
these arguments and debates. A good God
00:46:28
and an all powerful God would, could,
00:46:30
should, all this kind of stuff. And we
00:46:32
never get
00:46:34
a satisfactory answer to that. So, I've
00:46:37
come up with another problem possibly
00:46:39
because I'm a mathematician and we when
00:46:41
we've hammered at one problem for
00:46:42
centuries, we usually stop and try
00:46:46
another one. My other problem is just as
00:46:48
hard, but I think it gets me a bit
00:46:50
further and it's this. Every world view
00:46:53
must face
00:46:55
a mixed picture. I call it beauty and
00:46:58
barbwire or beauty and bombs. That
00:47:01
that's the world. It's mixed. And if you
00:47:03
don't accept that, you're not in touch
00:47:06
with reality. Now, here's my question.
00:47:09
Is there anywhere evidence
00:47:13
enough
00:47:15
to trust God with that situation?
00:47:18
That's a hard question.
00:47:20
>> And by that you mean the situation of
00:47:22
the sort of geographical distribution of
00:47:24
believers.
00:47:24
>> Yes. We'll never understand it or solve
00:47:26
it.
00:47:26
>> But do we trust God?
00:47:28
>> Do we trust God ultimately to be
00:47:30
absolutely fair? Because if God isn't
00:47:33
fair in the end, he knows what everybody
00:47:35
thinks, I believe. And we'll be
00:47:37
surprised maybe at what he does because
00:47:40
he can measure how much people know. My
00:47:44
responsibility is twofold. One, to
00:47:47
respond to the evidence I've had and
00:47:50
then Christ tells me to go and share it.
00:47:53
And that's what I do and I've been doing
00:47:55
all my life.
00:47:58
It doesn't answer a question, but it
00:48:02
gives you motivation. and the
00:48:05
alternative to rule God out has so many
00:48:10
uh negatives to it that I think I think
00:48:13
yeah so when I think about what I
00:48:14
understand of the Bible there's a
00:48:15
particular part of the Bible that talks
00:48:17
about the only way into heaven is
00:48:20
through Jesus and from that I inferred
00:48:22
that the only way to get into this great
00:48:24
place that everybody wants to go to is
00:48:26
by believing
00:48:27
>> but does everybody want to go to it I'm
00:48:29
not sure that they do
00:48:31
>> I I have met many people who when they
00:48:33
hear what Christ offers, they reject it.
00:48:36
But that that's that's another point.
00:48:38
>> So if if we talk about this
00:48:39
distribution,
00:48:41
>> yes,
00:48:41
>> sort of birthright distribution of what
00:48:43
you believe, um, and then those that
00:48:45
believe this one particular thing are
00:48:47
going to get into this heaven, it feels
00:48:51
unfair. Or this idea that only those
00:48:54
that believe get in is wrong.
00:48:57
>> Or God is not as nice as we thought and
00:49:00
he's playing a bit of a cruel game.
00:49:01
There's a fair bit going for your logic
00:49:03
there. I I I think and I think there are
00:49:08
aspects of this we don't understand
00:49:10
because to give a crude example of this
00:49:14
I expect to meet Abraham
00:49:17
and Moses but they didn't know about
00:49:19
Jesus
00:49:20
>> cuz they were before.
00:49:21
>> Yes.
00:49:22
>> When I approach this you said you're
00:49:24
agnostic. I like that word. People
00:49:27
rarely ask me if I'm agnostic, but what
00:49:30
I'm telling you is I'm agnostic about
00:49:32
masses of things. It's how I learn.
00:49:36
>> Agosco in Greek just means I don't know.
00:49:39
>> Yeah.
00:49:39
>> And once you take the other step and
00:49:42
saying I don't know and you can't know,
00:49:44
it then becomes illogical because if you
00:49:46
don't know, how can you know that I
00:49:47
can't know? And I always remember the
00:49:49
words of Richard Fineman who was a
00:49:51
brilliant Nobel Prize winning physicist.
00:49:53
You probably heard of Richard Fineman
00:49:55
who said, "Bend over backwards to
00:49:58
criticize yourself because you are the
00:50:02
easiest person for yourself to deceive."
00:50:04
>> Amen.
00:50:05
>> He was dead right. And that's why I love
00:50:09
exploring these things. And I feel
00:50:11
honored to talk to someone who's so
00:50:14
refreshing. I think there's great hope
00:50:16
for our culture in people like yourself
00:50:19
exploring and sharing
00:50:23
with the world the conclusions that
00:50:25
you've come to and the people that
00:50:27
you're interacting with.
00:50:28
>> Yeah, like I said, I have no I don't
00:50:30
have perfect answers either way. So
00:50:32
that's why the word agnostic seems to be
00:50:34
perfectly apt. Um the other real
00:50:37
question that I had that really stumped
00:50:39
me when I was 18 years old was this
00:50:41
point about omniscience. Yes. I mean,
00:50:43
it's the oldest question in the sort of
00:50:45
atheist religious battle, which is if
00:50:47
God is all knowing, he knew exactly
00:50:49
which individuals would reject him and
00:50:51
suffer
00:50:52
>> um and go to hell before he even created
00:50:55
them.
00:50:55
>> Yeah, that's determinism.
00:50:57
>> So, how is creating a soul that you know
00:50:59
is doomed
00:51:01
>> um an act of love?
00:51:02
>> Well, it isn't.
00:51:04
I don't go for that determinism. In
00:51:07
fact, I've written a book that thick
00:51:08
about it.
00:51:09
>> I think it was actually Ricky Jves tell
00:51:11
the story of the the baby being born in
00:51:14
let's say it's Africa or somewhere else
00:51:16
or India or wherever it might be the UK
00:51:19
who is born with a parasite eating its
00:51:22
eyeball out from the inside.
00:51:23
>> I know this. Yeah.
00:51:24
>> And I remember hearing that when I was
00:51:25
18.
00:51:26
>> Yeah. Terrible.
00:51:27
>> And thinking, okay, so if God's all
00:51:28
knowing, he knew that that baby was
00:51:30
going to have its eye eaten out by a
00:51:32
parasite before the baby was born, but
00:51:34
allowed the baby to be born anyway. And
00:51:36
with my moral compass, I would have
00:51:38
intervened. And if he's omnipotent or
00:51:40
powerful, he could have inter. So how do
00:51:41
you these qu where is the flaw in that
00:51:45
question?
00:51:46
Is there a flaw? Is there a
00:51:48
misunderstanding?
00:51:49
>> I I think there can be a
00:51:50
misunderstanding but it's a very
00:51:52
understandable one because I feel
00:51:54
exactly the weight of that as well. My
00:51:58
question that I set out a few minutes
00:52:00
ago is there any evidence anywhere that
00:52:03
God you can trust God with it? And the
00:52:06
major piece of evidence to my mind is
00:52:09
the cross of Christ. And if Christ
00:52:12
really is God whom he claimed to be,
00:52:14
this is God's suffering. And why is God
00:52:17
suffering? Well, it certainly tells me
00:52:19
that he hasn't remained distant from
00:52:21
human suffering, but has himself become
00:52:24
part of it. Now, that's not an answer.
00:52:27
There are no simplistic answers here.
00:52:30
But you see once you remove God
00:52:34
that child there's no hope for it. It's
00:52:36
dead gone out nothing but suppose God
00:52:39
can compensate that child because he is
00:52:42
the power to raise from the dead as he
00:52:45
did with Jesus
00:52:47
that changes everything for me. The
00:52:49
universe without a resurrection I don't
00:52:52
know whether you've ever watched my
00:52:54
debate the first one with Richard
00:52:55
Dawkins.
00:52:56
>> I suspect I have. the very last bit of
00:52:59
it, we were suddenly told we'd only 2
00:53:02
minutes to wrap up instead of nine each
00:53:06
and I said something about the
00:53:08
resurrection. And I never forget what
00:53:11
Richard said. It was something like
00:53:12
this. We've had a great discussion about
00:53:14
big ideas and so on. And now we come
00:53:17
down to the resurrection of Jesus. How
00:53:20
petty,
00:53:21
how paroial, how unworthy of the
00:53:24
universe. I remember thinking
00:53:28
if Jesus rose from the dead, it's the
00:53:30
biggest thing that's ever happened
00:53:32
because it may open the way to
00:53:35
understanding that there is life after
00:53:38
death. And you see CS Lewis has helped
00:53:40
me a lot. I used to listen to him. I'm
00:53:42
that old. He has helped me a lot in in
00:53:46
this idea of
00:53:49
a sense in which there's more than one
00:53:51
world. And we're so conditioned to
00:53:54
thinking that this world is the only one
00:53:56
there is. But if there is another world
00:53:58
and there is a loving God, then I
00:54:01
suspect, I can't prove this to you, but
00:54:04
when we one day see and enter that world
00:54:09
and see what God has done with the kind
00:54:11
of child you mentioned, we'll have no
00:54:14
more questions.
00:54:16
>> So, you think he's compensated that
00:54:18
child?
00:54:19
>> Oh, yes. God is a God of love. He will
00:54:22
do much better than look the biggest
00:54:24
gift that God has given you and me
00:54:28
is
00:54:29
our moral sense and the capacity to
00:54:31
love.
00:54:33
Now, we analyze problems like this with
00:54:38
our God-given capacities.
00:54:42
And we come, and I understand it
00:54:46
perfectly well because I've come to the
00:54:48
same place as you.
00:54:50
And say, "Well, God, if I had been you,
00:54:52
I would have done this."
00:54:55
Well, I suspect one day we're going to
00:54:57
find out why God didn't.
00:55:01
He's going to let me die one day. I've
00:55:02
nearly died died already. I've said
00:55:05
goodbye to my wife by the way and they
00:55:07
thought they weren't going 14 years ago
00:55:10
and I said goodbye. And it's interesting
00:55:13
when things like that hit you. Forgive
00:55:15
the personal reference, but it's very
00:55:16
real. Total peace both of us had
00:55:21
as I went into the operating theater and
00:55:24
the surgeon saved my life. And this
00:55:26
would take us down another rabbit hole.
00:55:28
But I got to New Zealand just a few days
00:55:31
after the earthquake. And I was on a
00:55:33
lecture tour and everything was
00:55:35
scrapped. I was in television, radio,
00:55:37
but only one topic, why earthquakes, you
00:55:40
see. And I met people that had lost
00:55:43
loved ones and all this kind of thing.
00:55:45
And I talked about the God who has
00:55:48
suffered and raised Jesus from the dead.
00:55:51
And the interesting thing was it was
00:55:53
that that gave the most hope to the
00:55:57
people that were listening to me because
00:55:58
they told me and wrote me little letters
00:56:00
afterwards and so on. So I I think
00:56:03
there's something big here. But that God
00:56:05
allows these things to happen is
00:56:08
something that in the end we have to
00:56:10
take on board even when they happen to
00:56:13
us.
00:56:14
>> What about all the um the humans that
00:56:17
lived before Jesus came? Well, God will
00:56:20
never judge anybody for not knowing what
00:56:22
they didn't know.
00:56:23
>> Interesting. That's an interesting idea.
00:56:26
So, I don't know.
00:56:29
>> So, am I good? Am I going to get into
00:56:32
heaven?
00:56:32
>> Well, no one is good but God. But you
00:56:35
see,
00:56:36
>> is it important for me to
00:56:38
>> You do know a great deal. That's obvious
00:56:40
to me. You do know a great deal. You
00:56:42
know what this is all about. And in a
00:56:45
sense you've been very near uh at the
00:56:48
beginning and you're now doing an
00:56:51
exploration and I mean your life stories
00:56:53
that you must write your autobiography
00:56:55
sometimes but wait a few years.
00:56:57
>> Yeah. I need I think I need a few more
00:56:59
experiences.
00:56:59
>> Yes.
00:57:00
>> But you will get them. I I I really
00:57:03
believe that the openness is the
00:57:05
important thing.
00:57:06
>> Yeah.
00:57:07
>> Quiz people. Put your Christian friends
00:57:10
under now.
00:57:11
>> Yes. I know. I know. It's lovely to find
00:57:14
someone who's prepared to do that quite
00:57:15
frankly.
00:57:16
>> Is it important that I believe in God?
00:57:19
Like if I live a good life and I'm kind
00:57:21
to people and I do my best.
00:57:22
>> But you see that's exactly the point I
00:57:24
was making that people think that living
00:57:26
a good life and being kind to people is
00:57:29
what God is interested in. When God has
00:57:32
prepared for us a relationship with
00:57:35
himself through Christ that deals with
00:57:39
the forgiveness of sins that we all
00:57:42
need, forgive me using the hackneed
00:57:44
phrase, but that's it. And will give us
00:57:47
a new life and a power to live, a new
00:57:50
power. You know, it's all very well
00:57:54
saying, I do good and I do this and do
00:57:56
the other thing. But we don't have the
00:57:58
power to live as we should. If we
00:58:01
compare ourselves to the sermon on the
00:58:03
mount for a week, we'll soon realize
00:58:04
that we're lacking. And I I think one of
00:58:08
the big changes comes in people as they
00:58:11
realize just the depth of what they
00:58:14
might be capable of
00:58:17
and possibly the depths of some things
00:58:19
that sadly they do and are facing a a
00:58:23
big need of forgiveness. You meet many
00:58:25
of them in prisons of course but I I
00:58:29
have seen such remarkable things happen
00:58:32
both directly and indirectly with people
00:58:34
who've made such a mess of life and God
00:58:37
has met them even in death row and
00:58:40
Russia and places like that where I was
00:58:42
able to go because I speak the language
00:58:44
to a certain extent again that I find
00:58:48
tremendously powerful evidence that God
00:58:51
is at work in these people's lives. It
00:58:53
is statistically the case that the more
00:58:56
hopeless your life becomes, the higher
00:58:57
the probability you have of turning to
00:59:00
um a religion and also if you're having
00:59:02
a crisis of meaning in your life for
00:59:03
whatever reason. I looked at some of the
00:59:05
data and it does show that
00:59:06
>> that's absolutely right and that's what
00:59:08
you'd expect if there if it's true at
00:59:10
least to a certain extent it gives
00:59:13
people something outside themselves.
00:59:15
That's simple psychology. I would have
00:59:17
thought
00:59:18
>> simple psychology
00:59:19
>> but it doesn't prove the truth or
00:59:20
>> it doesn't prove the truth because what
00:59:21
if I believe in the dragon at the bottom
00:59:24
of the garden or the spaghetti monster
00:59:25
>> lepreorns if you're Irish
00:59:27
>> and it seems to be the case that really
00:59:28
irrespective of which religion that you
00:59:30
know fills that you know place in your
00:59:32
life you still get the same boost in
00:59:34
meaning post starting to believe
00:59:35
>> well I'm not convinced of that you see
00:59:38
because I'm sitting here as a Christian
00:59:41
and I've reasoned for being a Christian
00:59:43
because I don't find this need met in
00:59:45
those practitioner ers of other
00:59:47
religions. I don't find that sense of
00:59:52
fulfillment and peace uh that comes
00:59:55
through the forgiveness in Christ. Now
00:59:56
when I say that I need to guard that
01:00:00
very carefully because one of the
01:00:03
troubles in and you will probably have
01:00:06
realized this in talking about different
01:00:08
religions is that once you begin to
01:00:10
criticize a religion,
01:00:13
people rightly think you're looking down
01:00:15
at them.
01:00:17
And so I clear the ground completely by
01:00:19
saying that
01:00:22
a pagan or a person in any religion
01:00:25
could put me to shame by their moral
01:00:27
behavior in raising questions about what
01:00:32
is taught by a particular religion. I'm
01:00:35
not criticizing your moral stance. And
01:00:37
CS Lewis helped me greatly there. He
01:00:40
wrote a book in the 1940s where he
01:00:43
tackled I think 40 different religions
01:00:45
and philosophies and in every one of
01:00:47
them he found the golden rule. Do unto
01:00:50
others what you would and he points out
01:00:52
that this is morally
01:00:55
hardwired into your system. So that when
01:00:59
I'm talking to people of other faiths
01:01:01
and ask these questions, I I'm very
01:01:04
careful to say that at the beginning.
01:01:06
But we've got to face the fact that
01:01:09
there are differences. My Jewish friends
01:01:13
believe that Jesus died and did not
01:01:15
rise. My Muslim friends believed he
01:01:18
didn't die. I believe he both died and
01:01:21
rose. Those three things cannot be
01:01:22
simultaneously true.
01:01:24
>> But when I look at the stats here, data
01:01:25
shows that devout Muslims and a devout
01:01:27
Hindu get the exact same psychological
01:01:29
meaning boost and sense of peace as a
01:01:32
devout Christian.
01:01:33
>> Well, how do you measure that? Well,
01:01:35
they ask them, "Does your life more
01:01:36
meaningful?" And sometimes, um, I've got
01:01:38
one particular friend who's part of his,
01:01:41
you know, uh, evidence that what he
01:01:44
believes is true is the feeling he got
01:01:46
when he started believing it.
01:01:48
>> Yeah. Well,
01:01:49
>> but the data suggests that
01:01:51
>> that if it is true, a positive feeling
01:01:54
would reinforce that, of course, but it
01:01:55
doesn't prove it in the end. But then
01:01:58
your criteria for yourself of what you
01:02:01
accept will be different from that
01:02:03
person. So you have to proceed
01:02:06
on the basis like Thomas of old. He
01:02:09
wouldn't accept what the other guys
01:02:10
said. He said I need the evidence for
01:02:12
myself and you need the evidence for
01:02:15
yourself. Evidence of the kind that's
01:02:18
going to give you a settled peace and
01:02:20
confidence in what you believe. I can
01:02:22
understand that perfectly.
01:02:24
>> Then there were also I was thinking then
01:02:25
I was thinking that there's fiction
01:02:26
movies I've watched that made me feel
01:02:28
really good.
01:02:29
>> Yes.
01:02:29
>> Afterwards and they made me feel like
01:02:30
more motivated and connected to the
01:02:32
university.
01:02:32
>> Yes, of course.
01:02:36
Steve, what are you doing?
01:02:37
>> Uh, just making myself a delicious
01:02:39
coffee
01:02:40
>> from the freezer.
01:02:41
>> From the freezer. Have you not heard
01:02:42
about Comtier?
01:02:43
>> No.
01:02:44
>> Oh my gosh, this is going to change your
01:02:46
life. I invested in this company called
01:02:48
Cometier last year and they're now one
01:02:49
of the sponsors of this podcast because
01:02:51
they've taken a pretty revolutionary
01:02:52
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01:02:55
is precision brewed at 10 times the
01:02:58
strength and then they flash freeze it
01:03:00
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01:03:03
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01:03:05
delivered to you on dry ice in these
01:03:07
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01:03:10
frozen like a little ice cube. All you
01:03:12
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01:03:16
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01:03:20
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01:03:22
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01:03:24
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stir it up, and for anyone that hasn't
01:03:30
tried it, you can get $30 off your first
01:03:32
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01:03:35
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01:03:38
I've done almost 700 interviews with
01:03:41
some of the most interesting people in
01:03:42
the world. And one of the things you
01:03:43
learn, which is unexpected, is that
01:03:45
vulnerability is the doorway to
01:03:47
connection. And after sitting here for 2
01:03:49
three hours with a guest, I feel a deep
01:03:51
sense of connection to them. And as they
01:03:53
leave, what I get them to do is to write
01:03:56
a question in the diary of a CEO. We've
01:03:59
taken all of the questions from the
01:04:01
diary of a CEO. We have put the question
01:04:04
here on this card with the name of the
01:04:07
person that wrote it. So you can sit at
01:04:08
home as I do with my fiance and my
01:04:10
colleagues at work and other people in
01:04:12
my life. Whenever we get a minute, we
01:04:14
play the Dracoio conversation cards. And
01:04:17
it is incredible what happens. These are
01:04:20
great if you're in a romantic
01:04:21
relationship and you want to connect
01:04:22
your partner more. These are also great
01:04:24
if you're in a team and you want to bond
01:04:26
your team together. And I have to say
01:04:27
they're also great for families that
01:04:29
want to learn more about each other and
01:04:30
that need a good excuse to spend some
01:04:32
time in a digital world in the analog
01:04:35
environment connecting human to human.
01:04:37
It is remarkable what the right question
01:04:40
at the right time can do. Go to the
01:04:42
diary.com
01:04:44
and you can get these conversation cards
01:04:46
right now. So, going back to this
01:04:48
question I asked about good people,
01:04:50
living a good life. It it it seems to be
01:04:53
the case that the Bible suggests that if
01:04:55
you don't believe in God, even if you
01:04:57
lived a good life, you go to hell. And
01:04:59
hell is described as not a nice place.
01:05:02
So, I I was thinking about the most kind
01:05:04
person I know that's lived her life to
01:05:06
be unbelievable passed away. She didn't
01:05:08
believe. Does that mean she's in hell?
01:05:11
Well, you can't answer that. Let me just
01:05:14
say something here that
01:05:17
what scripture reveals is a very
01:05:20
interesting thing that the only people
01:05:22
to whom Jesus talked about hell were
01:05:24
religious bigots
01:05:27
who were in danger of it.
01:05:29
He didn't talk about it to ordinary
01:05:32
folks who were struggling with believing
01:05:35
and trusting God and all the rest.
01:05:36
That's point number one.
01:05:38
>> What is what are you implying there?
01:05:40
Sorry. Well, what I'm implying there is
01:05:43
that we paint hell as something
01:05:47
ogre like god stuffing and demonsting uh
01:05:53
bodies into hell when actually
01:05:56
I think Lewis got it right here you know
01:05:58
when he talks about this that
01:06:02
hell is absence of God and it's chosen
01:06:07
if a person doesn't want God in their
01:06:10
life and I've known people like that and
01:06:12
they choose it, God will give them what
01:06:14
they chose. Otherwise, God is going to
01:06:16
have to force his way into their lives
01:06:18
and they don't want him. And here is the
01:06:21
amazing thing to my mind about Jesus and
01:06:23
his attitude. He would go places. He
01:06:26
would heal people. He would bring peace
01:06:29
into their lives and all the rest of it.
01:06:32
But when folk saw what he did and said,
01:06:35
"Go leave us alone," he went.
01:06:39
He didn't force his way into their
01:06:40
lives. And it it seems to me that the
01:06:44
one example in the New Testament of a
01:06:47
person who did not live a good life and
01:06:50
neglected the poor around him and ended
01:06:56
in that place. There is no evidence that
01:06:59
he wanted out of it. What he said was,
01:07:02
"Please send Abram to my brothers that
01:07:06
they don't come to this place." There's
01:07:08
no indication that he wanted out of it.
01:07:10
And I think this is a grim reality here
01:07:13
that when we use these words, we need to
01:07:16
be immensely careful.
01:07:19
You can choose
01:07:21
not to have God and God will honor that
01:07:23
choice and that is hell.
01:07:27
>> One of the things that um I grew up
01:07:28
believing because of the the Bible was
01:07:30
that if you repented,
01:07:32
>> yes,
01:07:33
>> which is you know to ask forgiveness,
01:07:34
admit your sins, etc. acknowledge God,
01:07:37
believe, then your sins would be
01:07:39
forgiven.
01:07:40
>> So if someone was a serial killer for
01:07:43
their whole life and then repented at
01:07:44
the end of their life, would they be
01:07:46
forgiven and allowed into heaven? I
01:07:48
guess this kind of links to the question
01:07:49
I just asked, which is if someone was a
01:07:51
doctor for their whole life, cur curing
01:07:52
childhood cancer, but they didn't
01:07:54
believe they would theoretically be
01:07:56
going to this place described as hell.
01:07:58
>> Yeah, we can argue about cases like that
01:08:00
all the time. Neither of us is God. And
01:08:03
the way God deals with these people,
01:08:05
after all, next to Christ on the cross
01:08:07
were two thieves. Well, they were
01:08:09
terrorists, actually. They both murdered
01:08:11
apparently. And one of them railed
01:08:14
against Jesus and shouted and all this
01:08:17
kind of thing. And the other uh simply
01:08:20
said to him, "I deserve to be here.
01:08:22
Remember me when you come into your
01:08:24
kingdom." And Jesus turned to him on the
01:08:26
cross and said, "Today you will be with
01:08:29
me in paradise." And so yes, he in that
01:08:33
sense. Yes. And the Apostle Paul, you
01:08:36
know, was a murderer. There are deep
01:08:38
mysteries here. It's just amazing. I
01:08:41
never forget looking through the door of
01:08:44
a Russian
01:08:45
security death row. I'd never been in a
01:08:48
death row before. And the stink, it was
01:08:50
just like a nightmare. And because I was
01:08:54
the only one of the Brits who could
01:08:55
speak Russian, I went up to the door and
01:08:58
a chap came over and looked at me gaunt
01:09:01
and all this. And he was just awaiting
01:09:02
execution.
01:09:05
And what he said to me was this. He
01:09:07
said, "I deserve to be here." He killed
01:09:09
12 women or something. I can't remember
01:09:11
which. And then his face just burst into
01:09:16
what I can only describe as a ghastly
01:09:18
smile.
01:09:20
And he said, "I met Jesus here and he
01:09:22
forgave me
01:09:24
and you just
01:09:27
you go away with a very
01:09:30
burdened heart, I think."
01:09:33
And he said, "My colleague lying over
01:09:35
there is the same." What do you make of
01:09:37
it? I don't think we're going to find
01:09:39
out.
01:09:40
>> I don't know. I feel like I'm wired to
01:09:42
try I try and have to solve these
01:09:43
problems, these big questions. I
01:09:45
have to like figure them out or they all
01:09:47
just sit there causing increasingly more
01:09:50
confusion which pops me right on that
01:09:52
agnostic fence.
01:09:53
>> Yes, I would encourage you to
01:09:55
concentrate on the one that you think is
01:09:57
most important one at a time and I I
01:10:01
don't know because I've only met you. I
01:10:05
think what you're doing by
01:10:09
talking to people from different
01:10:11
backgrounds and so on. I'd love to be
01:10:14
able to say here's where you must look,
01:10:16
but each one of us is so complex and
01:10:19
what will answer the question for you
01:10:22
might not answer it for the person
01:10:23
sitting next to you.
01:10:25
>> Mhm.
01:10:25
>> But don't stop exploring, I would say.
01:10:29
But I don't think you will.
01:10:31
>> No, I won't. That's for sure. because I
01:10:33
find the the curious pursuit of truth in
01:10:36
and of itself a rewarding pursuit
01:10:38
irrespective of whether I ever find the
01:10:40
answers.
01:10:40
>> That's the key. A speech that made a
01:10:43
deep impression on me was given by
01:10:45
Alexander Soldier Nitsson when he was
01:10:48
pushed out of the Soviet Union. Do not
01:10:51
compromise in the least with lies. Live
01:10:53
not by lies. I think our generation
01:10:56
needs to hear that because one of the
01:11:00
great and tragic capacities of AI is the
01:11:04
spread of lies, deep fakes, all the rest
01:11:06
of it. I've been subject to it myself in
01:11:10
the last month. when you think about the
01:11:12
impact that AI is going to have on human
01:11:14
purpose. We talk a lot about job losses
01:11:16
and yes um you know white collar workers
01:11:18
entry- level roles and then really like
01:11:20
everything else if if you have a long
01:11:21
enough time horizon it's conceivable
01:11:23
that many of the roles we all do today
01:11:24
including maybe even as a podcaster um I
01:11:27
think Spotify announced this month that
01:11:28
you're going to be able to generate your
01:11:29
own podcasts with AI um what is the high
01:11:33
level sort of philosophical point we
01:11:35
need to understand about meaning and how
01:11:37
to live a good life uh in a world where
01:11:40
some of us might lose our jobs and have
01:11:42
to contend with change in a way that
01:11:44
we've not experienced before.
01:11:46
>> I think we just have to I mean I have
01:11:49
children, grandchildren, all the rest of
01:11:50
it. And one of my sons is beginning to
01:11:53
ask questions. Dad, AI looks as if it's
01:11:55
going to replace my job. Well, he's
01:11:58
techsavvy and he will rise to it, I
01:12:02
suspect. But all industrial revolutions
01:12:05
did this, but this is going to do it in
01:12:07
a scale never before seen. And the
01:12:09
tragedy is uh I was talking about this
01:12:12
in South Africa and they said it's all
01:12:14
very well to tell us to reskill people
01:12:17
but if you don't have the educational
01:12:18
infrastructure to do that
01:12:21
you'll just force a much bigger divide
01:12:23
between the rich and the poor and
01:12:25
they're really worried about it.
01:12:27
I think the important thing which is why
01:12:29
I wrote my books is to inform and get
01:12:33
people thinking and get them talking.
01:12:35
>> What is the conversation you want them
01:12:37
to be talking about? I think it's a very
01:12:39
wide-ranging
01:12:41
conversation. You know, there are
01:12:44
existential things for people. They're
01:12:46
afraid.
01:12:48
>> Should they be?
01:12:50
>> Well, they should be afraid of some
01:12:52
things. I think the creeping advance of
01:12:55
totalitarianism is something that could
01:12:57
engulf us all
01:13:00
if we're not very careful. It's
01:13:02
creeping, creeping, creeping, and is
01:13:04
being ruled out in parts of the world,
01:13:06
particularly China. But not only I read
01:13:09
a very interesting report by a Chinese
01:13:12
watcher saying beware you and the west
01:13:16
because the only difference between us
01:13:17
and you is you've got all the technology
01:13:20
but not yet a central government
01:13:22
imposing it. Not yet. Beware and I think
01:13:27
we have to beware because we are
01:13:29
sleepwalking into this. uh Sir Anthony
01:13:33
Seldon, I don't know whether you've come
01:13:35
across him. He's a an education is very
01:13:38
highly regarded by various governments
01:13:41
has written a book about AI and its
01:13:43
effect in education and of course it's
01:13:46
having a devastating effect as you know
01:13:49
what is an essay.
01:13:51
Everybody's using AI and it's hard to
01:13:54
recognize whether it's AI or not now. So
01:13:58
that we're into a whole new world or
01:14:01
coming rapidly into it.
01:14:04
How do we know what is true and what
01:14:06
isn't? A few weeks ago, I was contacted,
01:14:10
could a publisher produce a transcript
01:14:13
of a recent lecture I'd given because
01:14:15
they liked it so much. Never heard of
01:14:17
it. I looked it up, discovered a website
01:14:20
describing itself as Linux logic
01:14:24
and it was a picture of me, but it was
01:14:26
deep faked all the way through and AI
01:14:28
generated
01:14:30
material that I would never have said
01:14:32
all politicized and everything else.
01:14:34
>> Is it conceivable that maybe you know so
01:14:38
much of this technology has promised
01:14:39
that it would make us more human and so
01:14:41
much of it failed. It made us more
01:14:42
isolated and lonely.
01:14:43
>> Oh yes. Is it conceivable that if a
01:14:45
technology comes along like AI, it will
01:14:48
render us um useful for the things that
01:14:52
humans are uniquely positioned to do
01:14:55
>> as in you know being with each other in
01:14:57
the real world and absolutely
01:14:58
relationships and is it conceivable that
01:15:00
maybe we were never meant to sit in
01:15:01
front of screens tap tapping buttons and
01:15:03
>> oh I think that's absolutely true what's
01:15:05
already exercising many people's minds
01:15:08
in that direction
01:15:09
>> and could that be a better life
01:15:12
>> well how would I judge that I
01:15:14
>> I guess one way. Yeah, it's a good
01:15:15
point. Um, you know, I was thinking
01:15:17
about this. I was thinking, is this like
01:15:18
the moment where we kind of regress back
01:15:20
to
01:15:23
how we used to live, our true maybe
01:15:26
human nature? Is that is that what
01:15:28
happens here? Where I don't know, we
01:15:29
spend more time with each other in the
01:15:31
real world and we cuz that's what you
01:15:33
know that's very human and my Maslovian
01:15:35
needs of connection and touch and
01:15:37
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you can you can
01:15:40
demonstrate that. Look at these groups
01:15:42
of parents who have said to their kids,
01:15:45
"Look, we're going away into the country
01:15:47
for a week and we're taking your
01:15:50
smartphones away." And they grumble and
01:15:53
say, "No, no, no." And they come back
01:15:54
after the week having rediscovered
01:15:56
nature. They don't want to use their
01:15:58
smartphones very much. Totally
01:16:00
transformed by touch and taste and
01:16:02
feeling. You see,
01:16:05
AI is a machine.
01:16:08
It doesn't have any of our five senses.
01:16:11
which are all connected with our
01:16:13
consciousness. It doesn't see, it
01:16:15
doesn't hear,
01:16:16
>> it doesn't taste.
01:16:17
>> When you say it doesn't,
01:16:18
>> it doesn't touch, it doesn't smell,
01:16:20
>> it doesn't see.
01:16:21
>> Oh, it can it can be programmed to
01:16:23
recognize patterns, but it is no
01:16:25
awareness of what the process of seeing
01:16:27
is.
01:16:27
>> Does it need it?
01:16:29
>> Well, that's not the point. What I'm
01:16:31
saying is it's uh distinctively human
01:16:34
that we understand what seeing is. We
01:16:36
know what seeing red is. Do we the
01:16:39
machine? Yes, I think we do.
01:16:41
>> I mean, we can philosophize all around
01:16:43
it, but it's a conscious experience. And
01:16:46
consciousness from a scientific
01:16:48
perspective is called the hard problem.
01:16:50
No one knows what it is.
01:16:52
>> We don't understand it.
01:16:53
>> Yes, we can't re you can't replicate it.
01:16:56
>> So, how do we know if AI is conscious?
01:16:59
If the output is the same, I I can point
01:17:01
an AI at this and say, "What is it?" And
01:17:04
the AI will say, "It's a mug." And I can
01:17:06
get a human to walk in here and say,
01:17:07
"What is that?" and they'll go a mug.
01:17:09
Now the output is the same.
01:17:11
>> Yes. But the understanding is not there.
01:17:14
>> And why does that part why is that
01:17:16
critical?
01:17:16
>> Well, because there's a huge difference
01:17:20
in being a machine and responding to a
01:17:23
program created by others and being
01:17:26
aware of what you're doing consciously.
01:17:28
That's a totally higher level of being.
01:17:31
>> I agree. But why does that matter in
01:17:33
this context?
01:17:35
Well,
01:17:35
>> one another way of asking this question
01:17:37
is actually visualized by what I have in
01:17:38
front of me here because one of the big
01:17:40
big debates around AI is is it creative?
01:17:42
>> Yes, I know.
01:17:44
>> So, here we have a picture done by
01:17:48
>> a human.
01:17:49
>> Yes.
01:17:50
>> Here, which is you know picture of a
01:17:52
family and a dog and there and then we
01:17:54
have another picture here which is done
01:17:57
by AI.
01:17:57
>> Yes.
01:17:58
>> And we have another picture here which
01:17:59
is done by a different AI.
01:18:00
>> Yes.
01:18:02
Now there's a debate that um AI can't be
01:18:04
creative.
01:18:06
Now can AI be creative?
01:18:09
>> Well, if you call what's in front of you
01:18:11
as creative, then it can be. But it now
01:18:16
comes down to the very big question of
01:18:18
what you actually mean by creative.
01:18:21
>> Yeah.
01:18:21
>> You see, it can create things. It can
01:18:24
put things together that haven't been in
01:18:27
that form before, but it's not aware of
01:18:31
doing it. It doesn't know that those are
01:18:33
children
01:18:35
because it doesn't know.
01:18:36
>> But if I ask it what is that? It would
01:18:38
say a child.
01:18:39
>> Yes. But it doesn't know
01:18:41
like we know
01:18:43
>> and does and this it goes back to the
01:18:44
same question which is does which is
01:18:47
like what the process
01:18:49
why does the process matter if the
01:18:53
output is identical.
01:18:55
>> Well let me just say that that view is
01:18:59
exactly the view that Alan Turing took
01:19:02
at the beginning. And if you look at
01:19:05
what's often referred to as the AI
01:19:07
bible, uh Peter Norvik and his
01:19:09
colleagues, he said, "Look, we are not
01:19:12
trying to create a conscious machine. We
01:19:16
wouldn't even know what that meant."
01:19:17
>> Yeah,
01:19:18
>> we are happy with the imitation game
01:19:22
>> and that's good enough for us. We're not
01:19:24
trying to do it. But you see the
01:19:26
conscious side involves all that
01:19:29
appreciation of life and nature and
01:19:31
beauty and so on that we can see some
01:19:34
meaning in. But also there's another
01:19:36
thing. There's a consciousness of other
01:19:39
people and there's God consciousness. I
01:19:43
don't think AI anywhere near that.
01:19:46
Machines there are certain things they
01:19:49
cannot do even potentially that the
01:19:51
human mind can do. So there's no way a
01:19:54
machine is ever going to be able to
01:19:55
simulate a human mind completely. But
01:19:58
that's difficult. That's difficult
01:19:59
mathematics and all the rest of it. And
01:20:01
it's highly controversial.
01:20:03
>> Why is it an important conversation to
01:20:05
have that it is conscious or not
01:20:07
conscious when the output is is the
01:20:10
same?
01:20:10
>> Yes, I I can see the question. But if
01:20:13
you want to live in a reductive universe
01:20:16
which ends up being meaningless, well
01:20:18
then you can go that way. There's not
01:20:20
nothing to stop you. But it seems to me
01:20:22
there are enough indicators
01:20:25
within nature, within science, within
01:20:27
our human experience
01:20:29
that tell us there's a bigger world. And
01:20:33
this is the right and left brain stuff.
01:20:35
We're back to Beilus again. He would he
01:20:38
would his stuff in AI is very strong. He
01:20:42
thinks it's really dangerous because
01:20:44
it's ruining all this side of the brain
01:20:47
and the richness o of human experience
01:20:50
and it's in danger of destroying it. He
01:20:53
actually invites people to come and
01:20:55
fight with him.
01:20:57
>> So in such a world what is it that makes
01:20:58
humans um what what is it that makes us
01:21:01
special? Is it that those human things
01:21:03
we talked about relational?
01:21:05
>> Oh I think so. Yes, absolutely. And the
01:21:07
fact that you and I can have a
01:21:09
conversation like this,
01:21:11
>> you could have this conversation with
01:21:12
AI.
01:21:14
>> I'm the same way. AI is pretty thin
01:21:16
still. You can have a conversation of
01:21:19
sorts. But remember, who's responsible
01:21:22
for its capacity? Humans. It's something
01:21:24
made in the image of humans. And that's
01:21:27
a dangerous thing. I'd prefer I'd prefer
01:21:30
to have made with something made in the
01:21:31
image of God. It's interesting because
01:21:33
we almost we're getting to a point where
01:21:34
there's going to probably be some like
01:21:36
ethical questions around
01:21:38
>> Oh, there I mean around robotics.
01:21:40
>> Oh, everywhere.
01:21:41
>> You know, in the same way that many of
01:21:43
us feel quite empathetic towards like
01:21:45
trees.
01:21:46
>> Yes. Yes.
01:21:46
>> And we feel empathetic towards animals.
01:21:48
>> Um, now trees haven't got a brain, but
01:21:51
just cutting down a tree needlessly I
01:21:54
think would annoy a lot of people
01:21:55
because it's
01:21:56
>> it would annoy me.
01:21:57
>> Yeah, it would annoy me too. And I think
01:21:59
there's almost going to get to a point
01:22:00
where like you know people are going to
01:22:03
start asking similar questions around
01:22:05
>> robots
01:22:07
>> which is
01:22:09
it's an interesting question.
01:22:11
>> It is. It is.
01:22:12
>> Let me ask you a final question then
01:22:13
which is what is the the most important
01:22:15
thing we haven't talked about that we
01:22:18
should have talked about as it relates
01:22:19
to all of the work in these tangental
01:22:22
subjects?
01:22:24
>> Oh, I can't answer that. That
01:22:27
perhaps the most important thing is
01:22:30
finding the trigger that will help you
01:22:32
to take a step forward into
01:22:36
into faith into the Christian faith.
01:22:40
And I would just encourage you to keep
01:22:43
asking your questions in the open way
01:22:46
you've done. And I have regarded it an
01:22:48
honor to
01:22:50
have this discussion. And I hope very
01:22:53
much it won't be the last one, but age
01:22:55
may prevent that. But thank you very
01:22:57
much.
01:22:58
>> We have a um closing tradition where the
01:23:00
last guest leaves a question for the
01:23:02
next not knowing who they're leaving it
01:23:03
for.
01:23:07
And the question that's left for you
01:23:11
in a world with so many challenges, what
01:23:14
can we do to restore hope and trigger
01:23:17
engagement?
01:23:20
give people a real basis for hope that
01:23:24
transcends this world.
01:23:27
And the only place I know where to find
01:23:29
that
01:23:31
is in Christ and in Christianity.
01:23:35
John, thank you. One of the um one of
01:23:36
the most compelling
01:23:38
arguments for uh
01:23:41
God that you've presented and your way
01:23:44
of seeing the world in being is not
01:23:46
actually necessarily anything you've
01:23:47
written in your books or not not
01:23:48
necessarily anything you've said. It is
01:23:50
it is actually
01:23:52
you
01:23:54
and uh you you you have a certain peace
01:23:59
and contentment that I rarely see in
01:24:03
people that I interview but I often see
01:24:05
and I've almost always seen in the
01:24:08
Christians that I've interviewed and
01:24:10
this is a interesting phenomenon for me.
01:24:12
I interviewed Wesley Huff recently. Do
01:24:14
you know Wesley Huff?
01:24:14
>> Yes. Yes.
01:24:15
>> He was the same Canadian. Wesley's a
01:24:18
bright cookie.
01:24:18
>> Yeah. He was very much he gave me the
01:24:20
same feeling as you just like feels like
01:24:21
a really happy person very sort of
01:24:23
content rounded well
01:24:24
>> there are many of us
01:24:25
>> but it seems to be a trend that you know
01:24:27
a lot of the Christian apologists that
01:24:28
I've interviewed have that anchoring
01:24:31
that
01:24:31
>> yes
01:24:31
>> so many of us are looking for
01:24:33
>> there's a real sense of that you know
01:24:37
I sit in front of many people and of
01:24:40
course they often ask me questions I
01:24:42
don't even understand but
01:24:45
in life that peace is very important to
01:24:50
me and also what we started with when I
01:24:54
look at you I see someone who's of
01:24:57
infinite value made in the image of God
01:25:00
and so what I say to you or think about
01:25:02
you is hugely important to me and I wish
01:25:07
you well
01:25:09
>> thank you um I highly recommend I mean
01:25:11
you've written so many books I I don't
01:25:12
have all of them here but I have a long
01:25:13
list of them but I highly recommend
01:25:15
everybody goes and checks out your
01:25:16
autobiography which is your most recent
01:25:19
works.
01:25:20
>> Yeah.
01:25:20
>> Um it's called John Lennox and I'm gonna
01:25:22
link it below. It's a spiritual and
01:25:24
intellectual autobiography that I think
01:25:26
is highly fascinating to read because of
01:25:28
how diverse your thinking and skill sets
01:25:30
are. But also this wonderful I mean you
01:25:33
wrote if people are interested in the
01:25:34
subject of AI then I highly
01:25:35
>> then they should read 2084.
01:25:37
>> I'll link 2084 below as well. That's
01:25:39
2084 artificial intelligence in the
01:25:41
future of humanity. Um, and I highly
01:25:43
recommend everybody goes and reads both
01:25:46
books because they you are a truly
01:25:49
um, fascinating person with a very
01:25:50
unique skill stack and experience stack
01:25:52
and perspective. Fascinating. Thank you
01:25:54
so much, John.
01:25:55
>> Oh, thank you.
01:25:57
>> YouTube have this new crazy algorithm
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where they know exactly what video you
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