00:00:00
This could be the last time I speak about myself, my work, because there's a
00:00:05
chance that I might not make it off the operating table this month. And a journalist who has very bad blood
00:00:11
towards me has been trying to publish a story on me for more than 2 years now, and it will come out in the next month
00:00:18
or two. And I didn't want that to be the last word on my life. >> What do you want the last word of your
00:00:23
life to be? >> I'm here to communicate about the possibility of a major forgotten episode
00:00:28
in Human Story. I'm talking about a lost civilization. >> So, most people think civilization
00:00:34
started 6,000 years ago. >> Yes. >> But you believe there's strong evidence
00:00:37
that there could have been a previous civilization >> 20,000 years ago. And I'm going to
00:00:41
present the evidence for that here, Stephen. And it suggests a golden age where there was no violence, no cruelty,
00:00:47
where great healers and sages were at work. They're extremely sophisticated.
00:00:51
However, if you follow the myths further, as I've done, you find something odd happens. We find that they
00:00:56
stepped away from the original purity and become a culture that begins to impose its power on others around the
00:01:02
world. And then sewn into those myths is scientific information which record a gigantic cataclysm all but wiping out
00:01:09
the human race. >> If what you're saying is true, what does that mean for our lives? I guess also
00:01:14
our future. >> Well, there's always this feeling in the myth that we brought this upon
00:01:18
ourselves. And when I look at our civilization today, I see a civilization that ticks all the mythological boxes
00:01:24
for the next lost civilization. And that we are most likely to be the cause of that cataclysm ourselves. Unless we wake
00:01:31
up. Graeme Hancock, what will you care about on your last day? >> Most of all,
00:01:44
this is super interesting to me. My team given me this report to show me how many
00:01:47
of you that watch this show subscribe. And some of you have told us according to this that you are unsubscribed from
00:01:52
the channel randomly. So favor to ask all of you, please could you check right now if you've hit the subscribe button
00:01:57
if you are a regular viewer of this show and you like what we do here. We're
00:02:00
approaching quite a significant landmark on this show in terms of a subscriber number. So, if there was one simple free
00:02:06
thing that you could do to help us, my team, everyone here, to keep this show free, to keep it improving year over
00:02:12
year and week over week, it is just to hit that subscribe button and to double check if you've hit it. Only thing I'll
00:02:16
ever ask of you, do we have a deal? If you do it, I'll tell you what I'll do.
00:02:20
I'll make sure every single week, every single month, we fight harder and harder
00:02:24
and harder and harder to bring you the guests and conversations that you want to hear. I've stayed true to that
00:02:28
promise since the very beginning of the D of Sio, and I will not let you down. Please help us. Really appreciate it.
00:02:33
Let's get on with the show. >> Bram Hancock, I guess the first question
00:02:41
I wanted to ask you is what is it you've committed the last more than 30 years of
00:02:45
your life to understanding >> what it is is a a puzzle. I'm puzzled by aspects of the human
00:02:54
past. There could be, and I think there's a lot to suggest there was, a major forgotten episode in the human
00:03:02
story. That's why I refer to us as a species with amnesia. When I use that phrase, I need to give credit to Emanuel
00:03:10
Velikovski who wrote a book called mankind in Amnesia. I think we are a species with amnesia. I think we have
00:03:16
forgotten something very important in our own past. And when I turn to the experts, I find much of what they say
00:03:24
very interesting and very useful. but some of what they say extremely unsatisfactory and and not responding to
00:03:31
the problems that that I have in the past. And that's led me to to take my own approach to the past to look at that
00:03:38
and and to offer uh readers because I'm mainly an author occasionally make TV
00:03:43
shows to offer them an alternative point of view which is rational and and and solidly based but which is contrary to
00:03:52
key aspects of the mainstream narrative. We only have decipherable written scripts from the last 5 and a half
00:04:00
thousand years maximum. Before that, we don't have any any writing that we can
00:04:05
at any rate read. Go back 10, 12, 15, 20,000 years. All you can base it on from an archaeological point of view is
00:04:13
what they can dig out of the ground. And I think what they're missing, the ancients did leave us memories of what
00:04:20
they went through. We have myths and traditions and scriptures from all around the world which record a gigantic
00:04:30
cataclysm affecting the human race and all but wiping out the human race. Everybody knows the story of the flood
00:04:37
of Noah. Of course, the flood of Noah is just an one example of hundreds like that of stories from around the world.
00:04:44
Uh archaeologists pour scorn on Plato's story of Atlantis. Uh but Atlantis is
00:04:51
another of those stories that remembers a global flood that wiped out a former era of existence, leaving only a few
00:04:57
survivors. And the archaeological response to them is there was a local river flood. They exaggerated it. It was
00:05:05
a big deal for them. So they said it happened to the whole world. And I'm sick of archaeologists saying that. This
00:05:10
is the memory banks of our species. This is the record, the only record we have of a period before 6,000 years ago. And
00:05:18
we shouldn't despise it and scorn it as primitive superstition. We should say,
00:05:22
what can we find in here that we can coordinate with scientific facts that we're aware of? Let's see if there's
00:05:28
something to this rather than just dismissing it. Many of these myths contain imagery and a series of numbers.
00:05:37
A very important academic study published in the 1960s a book called Hamlet's Mill by Giorgio de Santilana,
00:05:44
professor of the history of science at Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Hera Vondes, professor of history of
00:05:50
science. This is not me speaking. This is major major historians of science in the 1960s. They found encoded in those
00:05:57
myths numbers and imagery that could only relate to one thing and that's an obscure astronomical phenomenon called
00:06:03
the precession of the equinoxes. I'm not going to go into the technical details,
00:06:07
but to observe it and to record it and to predict it, to predict its effects in the future involves very precise
00:06:13
astronomical observations maintained over a very long period of time, hundreds and hundreds of years at least.
00:06:19
So here we have myths of a global cataclysm. There is just so much else. There are ancient maps that show the
00:06:24
world as it looked during the ice age, again dismissed as just total coincidence and not significant by
00:06:29
archaeology. I feel that archaeology has failed miserably in providing a nurturing satisfying answer to the
00:06:36
questions we all have. >> So when you say global cataclysm >> what does that mean? Means that some
00:06:43
something hit the planet there was we were wiped out. >> Yeah. There there there are a number of
00:06:48
options and again I need to stress this because because there's so much propaganda in this business I'll be
00:06:53
immediately accused of lunatic fringe. The solid science that's been done on
00:06:58
this uh is twofold. One aspect of it, the one that I think I find most persuasive is called the younger drius
00:07:05
impact hypothesis. And this is a mainstream hypothesis, but it is severely criticized within academia. The
00:07:13
hypothesis is that about 20,000 years ago, a very large comet came in from deep space and went into orbit around
00:07:23
the sun. This would be a comet of a diameter of 100 kilometers, maybe 200. Comes in, gets captured by the sun's
00:07:31
gravity, goes into an orbit. That orbit crosses the orbit of the Earth. While you're dealing with one large object,
00:07:38
the chances of getting hit are extremely low. It would be very bad if you did, but very low. Trouble is, nobody
00:07:47
disputes this. Once comets are caught by the gravitational field of a very large
00:07:51
planet or of a sun, they start to break up into multiple parts. And this is what
00:07:55
happened to the younger dryass comet. Instead of being a single bullet, it became a shotgun blast. It became
00:08:01
thousands and thousands of objects of which we've cataloged quite a lot. Numbers of them, comet Enki is the best
00:08:07
known bit of that former comet. Many of the academics who look at this think that comet Enki which is about six
00:08:14
kilometers in diameter and which does cross the orbit of the earth they think that that was the source comet but
00:08:20
whereas the other team are saying no that's a bit of the source comet there were many other bits as well and 12,800
00:08:26
years ago 12,860 approximately the earth went into a storm of these fragments none of them
00:08:34
big enough to compare with the object that wiped out the dinosaurs 65 million years ago but all over the world. The
00:08:40
earth is turning. This stuff comes in. They found it in the west coast of North America. They found it in Belgium. And
00:08:47
they found it as far east as Syria. So, it's like the earth turns and this stuff
00:08:51
is just coming in. Most of it is blowing up in the air. It isn't even hitting the
00:08:55
ground. But an air burst from an object that might be 100 meters in diameter is equivalent to a very substantial nuclear
00:09:01
blast. So, their argument is the Earth was hit by a comet storm. And this they then argue, and I think they're right,
00:09:10
uh, explains what happened then because 12,800 years ago, we were still in the ice age. Uh, but the earth was coming
00:09:18
out of the ice age. In fact, for about a,00 maybe 2,000 years before that, the earth had been getting warmer, getting
00:09:25
quite nice. And you would normally expect that to continue. But then suddenly, 12,800
00:09:31
years ago, give or take, 60 years, there's a huge interruption. There's a
00:09:36
radical change. The earth instead of warming, it suddenly goes back into a massive deep freeze. And this is the
00:09:43
time when all the famous big animals of the ice age, the megapora are wiped out.
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The the woolly mammoths, the mastadons, the giant sloths, these things like 14 ft tall, you know, they're all they're
00:09:55
all wiped out in that window around about 12,800 years ago. And most important of all, there's a very
00:10:02
mysterious sea level rise that occurs then. This you would not expect when the earth is entering a cold phase. Normally
00:10:09
when earth enters a cold phase, ice accumulates on the existing ice caps. It doesn't melt and go into the sea. So the
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next thing is how do we explain this sudden rise in sea levels at the beginning of younger drives? It
00:10:22
shouldn't have happened. The comet theory explains it perfectly. the the the mass, the impact, the heat, the air
00:10:28
bursts, that would have been enough to send the ice sheets into meltdown and to cause this pulse of melt water. Then the
00:10:35
freeze sets in, you have about 1,200 years of freezing, desperately cold conditions. And then again, 11,600 years
00:10:44
ago, womph, it suddenly warms up. I mean, these are radical climate changes. They're beyond anything that's happening
00:10:49
now. And uh I I think explanations are needed for them. And because 12,800 years ago may sound a long time ago, but
00:10:57
it's really yesterday in the human story. Uh, so something very big happened to the Earth and happened to
00:11:04
our ancestors 12,800 years ago. If it wasn't a comet, another theory that's
00:11:09
been put forward is a radical change in solar activity. This might have been involved with it as well. I don't find
00:11:15
that as persuasive as the younger dus impact hypothesis. And you know maybe some other explanation will come up but
00:11:20
what nobody disputes is that the younger dus was a catastrophe. Uh it was global
00:11:26
uh and and it had huge effects. >> You um you chose intentionally to come and have this conversation today.
00:11:33
>> Why today? >> Well I've been quite unwell really noticeably unwell since uh January
00:11:40
February uh this year particularly very very short of breath. It's it's because
00:11:45
the one of the failed valves in my my heart is um causing blood to regurgitate inside the heart rather than pumping it
00:11:53
through the body. And that means that oxygenated blood is not getting to my lungs. I probably would live another two
00:11:59
or three years without the surgery, maybe maybe even five, but the quality of life would be very low. I I can't
00:12:04
even walk up three stairs without being being exhausted at the moment. So, I've
00:12:08
definitely decided to to have the surgery. Why am I doing this interview now rather than postponing it until
00:12:13
after the surgery and I've recovered? Well, there's a tiny chance, absolutely
00:12:17
minuscule chance that I might not make it off the operating table >> this month.
00:12:22
>> Yeah, this month. And if that were the case, uh this would be the last time
00:12:28
I've spoken about myself, my work, my life, challenges I faced, uh in an open
00:12:34
forum like this. And and and I I I choose to do that. And I'm going to say specifically why without giving without
00:12:42
mentioning names. I choose to do that because a journalist uh who has very bad blood towards me has been trying to
00:12:51
publish a story on me for more than two years now. Uh and it will come out in the next in the next month or two. And I
00:12:57
didn't want that to be the last word of my life. That's why I'm here. Stephen,
00:13:03
>> what do you want the last word of your life to be? I would I would hope that people will
00:13:09
come to understand that I'm not the person that a very small minority of archaeologists
00:13:16
have mobilized social media to present me as. I'm not a grifter. I'm not a
00:13:21
hoaxer. I'm not a con man. I'm deeply committed to this. I've devoted my life
00:13:25
to it for more than for more than 30 years. I'm passionate about it. It matters to me. And I think again I'll be
00:13:32
laughed at for saying this, but I feel called to do this. I feel I I feel it's my obligation and my
00:13:39
responsibility to do this. >> How is that disputed? Because I I guess I need to understand human history to
00:13:46
understand why >> the the the fundamental belief that you have that there was a civilization that
00:13:51
we aren't talking about. >> I'd like to be clear. It's not a belief.
00:13:56
Um this is another is a mistake that my that my critics of often make. They they
00:14:00
think that I'm dealing with some sort of belief system or some sort of cult here.
00:14:03
No, I'm not. I'm I'm just puzzled. I'm just puzzled by the past and I'm puzzled
00:14:09
by the memories that have been passed down to us and I'm puzzled that those memories concur all around the world on
00:14:17
a serious cataclysmic event. >> What is it that the your people that aren't puzzled and are certain belief?
00:14:24
>> Yeah. They think that glacial lakes in North America gradually grew in size and overspilled
00:14:31
the ice dams that held them in place and that the water from those lakes, some of
00:14:37
it went into the Atlantic Ocean and cut the Gulf Stream. I don't dispute that
00:14:42
glacial lakes were involved, but those lakes were filled up at a massive speed. Nobody disputes that the Younger Dryus
00:14:48
was a cataclysmic event. It's just the the degree of the cataclysm that's
00:14:52
disputed and what caused it that's disputed. >> But everyone agrees that humans are 300
00:14:59
15,000 years. >> I mean at present when I started on this quest back back in the late 80s early
00:15:06
90s it was felt that anatomically modern human beings had not existed for more than 50,000 years. Very recent really.
00:15:15
But this turned out to be complete rubbish because anatomically modern humans are much older than 50,000 years
00:15:21
ago. We have 196,000y old anatomically modern human remains from Ethiopia. And then finally 315,000
00:15:31
years ago a recent find in um Gibir Hood in Morocco again anatomically modern humans. So we can say that
00:15:41
if we define ourselves by our anatomy, uh, brain size, capacity of the skull, if we define
00:15:50
ourselves in those ways, we've been around for at least 315,000 years and probably much longer. That's that's just
00:15:55
an accident of discovery. And that's one of the things that puzzles me. If we're
00:16:00
anatomically modern, if we've got all the modern kit, if we've got the same
00:16:03
brains, we've got the same neurology, everything is there. Why do we wait more
00:16:09
than 300,000 years to establish something recognizable as a human civilization? Why do we wait so long? We
00:16:18
got all the kit. There's evidence that that our ancestors were aware of agriculture, just chose not to use it
00:16:24
much, much much earlier than that. the complex of events that leads to a city-based civilization, which is the
00:16:33
kind of civilization we have now all over the world that you can only really trace that back to 6,000 years ago. Yes,
00:16:41
you can say that before 6,000 years ago there was buildup to what became the high civilizations.
00:16:48
But my question is why not much earlier? Why why did we wait until that moment? And and I don't find a satisfactory
00:16:56
answer to that question, except perhaps we didn't wait. Perhaps we're missing
00:17:00
part of our story. And when I say a lost civilization, I do not mean a civilization like ours. I do not mean an
00:17:08
industrial civilization. I don't mean they had cell phones or flew to the moon
00:17:13
or any of that I think they were very different civilization from ours. But they had conquered a number of
00:17:19
peaks and one of those peaks was navigation and ocean seafaring. Hence the survival of maps which show the
00:17:26
world as it looked during the ice age. And another was astronomy. Uh and another really important breakthrough
00:17:35
evidenced by by the ancient maps particularly a category of maps called the portalanos
00:17:40
um is accurate relative longitudes. This is the Arantius Phineas map. It shows Antarctica uh right there. Uh and and um
00:17:50
this is interesting because this map was drawn in 1531. Uh the problem is that our civilization
00:17:56
didn't discover Antarctica until 1820. So its appearance on a map drawn in 1521,
00:18:03
particularly when we know that the map was based on older source maps. And the map maker tells us in his own legend
00:18:10
that he has uncovered material previously hidden in darkness. When we find that uh we have to begin to wonder
00:18:17
what is what is going on here. Had somebody found Antarctica long before long before we did uh and mapped it with
00:18:25
extremely accurate relative longitudes. And that's important because our civilization didn't crack the longitude
00:18:32
problem until the mid- 18th century. What that meant was that if you're on a
00:18:36
vessel sailing west or east, uh you might be 300 miles closer to a coastline than you think you are and suddenly
00:18:45
you're on it in the night and you're dead. Once you've got longitude work
00:18:48
out, you know exactly where you are. We didn't get that until 1750, 1760 thereabouts with Harrison's chronometer.
00:18:55
So finding good longitudes on very ancient maps is another puzzle that I don't think archaeology solved. So, you
00:19:00
think there could have been a civilization 20,000 years ago which was before this young dryest moment where um
00:19:06
I mean I've got this photo here which I'll throw up on the screen. >> Yeah.
00:19:09
>> I think you say it's evidence that something took place. >> It is that's that's the younger dry
00:19:14
boundary. Uh and I'm with Alan West who's one of the scientists from the
00:19:17
from the comet research group who are working on the younger dry hypothesis. And our hands are on that black stripe
00:19:23
running through the middle of the drawer. And that is soot. That is evidence of wildfires burning. Uh it's
00:19:30
full of nano diamonds, tiny little diamonds microscopic size which are a classic product of comet impacts. Uh
00:19:37
microspherules, some platinum, some iridium. All signatures of a cometry impact. And there it is. It's about 5 in
00:19:45
thick. That layer is the younger dus boundary layer. It dates to 12,800 years ago.
00:19:50
>> So for anyone that can't see, it's just like a slice of earth. And there's this
00:19:53
black line going through through the earth. We're in a draw here where a river has cut a channel and it's exposed
00:19:59
the sides of the channel and on the sides of the channel we can see this black stripe running through and that is
00:20:04
precisely the younger driest boundary >> and the current hypothesis is from a lot
00:20:08
of archaeologists is there wasn't a human civilization before this point 12,000 years ago but you believe there's
00:20:14
strong evidence that there could have been. >> Yes. >> So civilization then in your definition
00:20:18
of the word how do you define that? a group of people gathering and working together.
00:20:22
>> Fundamentally, it involves it involves the willing organization or the unwilling organization of labor. If you
00:20:29
look at a site like Gobeci in Turkey, we have it on our timeline here somewhere.
00:20:34
It's 11,600 years old. Uh this is really an extraordinary site. It's a it's a very
00:20:42
sophisticated site. It's very large. It consists of large T-shaped megaliths
00:20:46
that can weigh up to 20 tons. There are precise astronomical alignments in it. Uh this was not done by two or three
00:20:54
people working together. This was well that's the gobeci today covered by a a
00:20:58
modern canopy to keep uh fair enough to keep the the weather off it because it was previously deliberately buried by
00:21:05
its builders. Um but of course there's much more around. Hundreds and hundreds
00:21:10
more pillars are still underground. We know they're there because of ground penetrating radar, but they've not been
00:21:15
excavated yet. So, so this was a major project and interestingly the people who built Gobeclet at that at the time
00:21:22
Gobeclet began there was no agriculture happening there. They were all hunter gatherers.
00:21:28
>> Mhm. >> Nevertheless, they did something that archaeologists used to say hunter
00:21:32
gatherers couldn't do. They organized themselves. They made a huge project. They implemented it and they delivered
00:21:38
it. And Gobecletep is not alone. It's one of dozens of sites like that all over Anatolia in in in Turkey. This was
00:21:45
a highly organized, sophisticated huntergatherer civilization that was involved in making this place.
00:21:51
>> I'm I'm a little bit confused. So, if the ice age ended 11,700 years ago,
00:21:56
>> Yeah. >> and Gbecki is 11,600 years ago, >> that means there's a 100redyear gap
00:22:02
between the end of the ice age and something as sophisticated as Gabbecki. >> Not exactly. Because because dates in
00:22:09
this frame, they're not spot-on accurate dates. Some will say the ice age ended
00:22:14
11,600. Some will say it ended 11,700 years ago. But the fact is that in this window, the world was warming up again.
00:22:23
It was getting better. And that's when this project was was created. And the
00:22:28
mystery is mystery for for archaeologists anyway is that it was hunter gatherers. And archaeologists are
00:22:33
now having to come to terms with that. You see the idea was you had to have an agricultural community first in order to
00:22:40
create projects like this because that allows people to become specialists. What if you generate a food surplus that
00:22:47
you can rely on then you can take people with certain skills and say focus on that become an astronomer become an
00:22:52
architect become an engineer we'll support you in doing that. That was the idea and that was why it was felt that
00:22:57
something like Gobeclet couldn't be built until about 6,000 years ago when there was widespread agriculture. But
00:23:04
that turned out not to be true. Uh it was built by hunter gatherers, but within a thousand years of it being
00:23:09
built, agriculture becomes present in that whole area. >> H origins of agriculture are definitely
00:23:16
earlier than we've than we've been taught. >> So it's funny because I don't know a lot
00:23:21
about the ice age, but humans survived the ice age. >> Oh god, yes, we we we did. It's just
00:23:26
it's just um where do you want to be during an ice age? That's the question.
00:23:32
>> What are my options? If you were a rational being, which most human beings are, you would immediately
00:23:38
exclude Northern Europe. >> Absolutely no point in being in that frozen, miserable wilderness.
00:23:45
>> You'd immediately exclude the northern part of North America, too. No point in
00:23:50
being there. It's just horrible at that time. Siberia, pretty rough. No, you'd
00:23:55
look for the tropics. You'd go you'd go down close to the equator. you'd go to
00:23:59
the places that weren't affected by the ice age, that were actually the best
00:24:04
real estate on Earth. That's where you'd go. That's why uh if we are looking for
00:24:11
a missing episode in the human story, we're wasting our time looking for it in
00:24:15
Northern Europe or North America. Uh we should be looking for it in Mexico. We should be looking for it in India. We
00:24:23
should be looking for it in Indonesia. we should be looking for it uh around Papu Nu Guinea. All of these areas that
00:24:30
were that were really great places to live during the ice age. That's that's
00:24:34
the kind of place that the sort of civilization I'm talking about could have thrived.
00:24:38
>> What is the difference? You know, cuz on here it says the earliest known humans
00:24:41
were 300,000 odd years ago. >> Yeah. >> What is the difference between these
00:24:45
humans 300,000 years ago and the civilization you're describing 20,000 years ago that you believe existed?
00:24:52
Apart from what is perhaps wrongly described as a slight refinement in human features, natural selection
00:24:59
operating on what humans perceive as beauty, I don't know. But otherwise, the
00:25:03
same >> the same >> the same. Yeah. Yeah. And again, that's not that not disputed. Nobody's saying
00:25:08
that Jebel Hood human beings were somehow different from us. They're anatomically modern humans.
00:25:14
>> But how did they live um versus your definition of ai civilization? >> They lived a simple hunter gatherer
00:25:21
life. >> Okay. in small groups. >> Yeah. But somehow around 11,600 years ago, people started
00:25:28
accumulating monuments that can only be made with large groups and organized organized
00:25:34
labor. You've got to you you have to have a system. You have to can't build
00:25:37
something like Gobeci without planning out in advance. You got to draw it out somehow. There has to be a plan. It's
00:25:43
not something you just wing. Uh so so there has to there's a missing background to all of that which bothers
00:25:49
me. And again, so most people think civilization started what 6,000 years ago. >> Yes. That that would be when
00:25:56
civilizations become archaeologically visible. So you have uh ancient Sumemer, Mesopotamia,
00:26:05
uh which roughly 3,500 I'm going to use BC because everybody's familiar with
00:26:10
that. Roughly 3,500 BC, which is 5,500 years ago approximately. We start seeing cities being built. We start seeing the
00:26:19
beginnings of writing taking place around about the same time. The same thing is happening in Egypt. Maybe a
00:26:25
couple of hundred years later, but the new work that's being done in Egypt is
00:26:28
pushing Egypt much closer to to Sumer narrowing that that window. Effectively, you can say that these two civilizations
00:26:37
become archaeologically visible at the same time. And uh they're not alone because on the other side of the world
00:26:43
in Peru uh there's a civilization now recognized called the Karal Supoupe civilization which built pyramids uh
00:26:50
which also goes back 5,500 years. Uh and and this is one of the mysteries I'm I'm
00:26:56
looking at now is is why we have these apparently coincidental emergence of high civilizations in the same window uh
00:27:05
all around the world. Indis Valley civilization roughly the same 5,000 years old. Yeah. We're looking at Karal
00:27:12
here I think. Yeah. Yeah. These classic these the feature is these circular plazas in front of them and then the
00:27:19
pyramid with a and and uh you know these were not and not expected in Peru. When
00:27:25
archaeologists think of Peru they tend to think of Machu Picchu the Inca civilization. That's what gets all the
00:27:32
coverage. >> And that's 600 years ago. >> That's 600 years ago. yesterday. Whereas
00:27:37
these Kal Supoupe pyramids, Karal, Asparro, Bandura, Pineo, these ones are much older,
00:27:48
thousands of years older. They're extremely sophisticated. They built with an earthquake proof technology. They
00:27:55
instead of using blocks, they put small stones in in textile bags and those allow a certain amount of shifting so
00:28:03
the thing doesn't collapse in an earthquake. And this is 5,500 years old getting on. So again, not an
00:28:10
agricultural civilization at the at that time. They're a huntergatherer civilization. So So archaeologists are
00:28:16
having to confront a reversal of their model at the moment. And I think there's
00:28:20
room in that reversal of the model for a forgotten episode in the human story. >> Tell me about this forgotten episode in
00:28:26
the human story. >> Yeah, it's uh it's remembered it's remembered all around the world as a
00:28:32
golden age where there was no violence, no cruelty. Um where great healers and sages were at work. where powers that
00:28:42
are scorned in our society today such as telepathy and telekinesis which are regarded as completely non-existent by
00:28:51
our scientists uh were regarded as a matter of fact of life in in in this ancient world. That's uh a civilization
00:29:00
that emerged out of shamanism uh and made something good. But then if you follow the myths further as I've done,
00:29:10
you find something odd happens, you find that they've stepped away from the original purity.
00:29:18
That they've become a culture that begins to impose its power on others around the world. And
00:29:26
that's always given as the reason for the cataclysm in the myths that that we
00:29:30
angered the gods. It might have been with our noise. It might have been with our irreverence. We angered the gods and
00:29:36
they sent a flood. They weren't happy with their creation. They wanted to start again, wipe the slate clean. And
00:29:44
so there's this there's always this feeling in the myths and it's and I
00:29:47
can't explain it. I don't know what what it comes from, but it's always there is
00:29:52
that in some way we ourselves brought this upon ourselves. Is this those people not understanding the
00:29:59
forces of mother nature and trying to sort of justify it as >> or perhaps a deeper understanding of the
00:30:07
forces of mother nature? Maybe >> perhaps the way that human beings are operating in the world today
00:30:14
um should be included amongst the forces of nature. We we are a geological force.
00:30:19
Uh and worse than that, we're a psychic force which is full of anger and hatred
00:30:24
and suspicion and and and mutual destruction. That's not going to be good for nature. That that's that's going to
00:30:31
be disturbing. We're an integrated system in my view. We we're not separate. Human beings are part of all
00:30:36
of this and what we do affects all of that. And that's what the ancient myths
00:30:40
seem to testify to. So, if I may finish on that, >> when I look at our civilization today, I
00:30:48
I don't want to go off on a rant, but when I look at our civilization today, I
00:30:52
see a civilization that ticks all the mythological boxes. every single one for the next lost civilization. And I
00:30:59
envision a situation 10 or 15,000 years from now when we will be a myth, a fantasy that our our ancestors
00:31:10
actually could speak to one another on opposite sides of the planet, that our ancestors they could fly to the moon, uh
00:31:16
you know, they could go to the depths of the ocean. The archaeologists of that time will say complete fantasy, just
00:31:21
made up, never happened, but it did. We're that lost civilization and we don't need a comet and we don't
00:31:30
need solar activity because if we're so psychically messed up as a species, we'll probably end up doing it to
00:31:36
ourselves. That's what nuclear weapons are about. mass species suicide and the mental processes that drive that
00:31:50
very dangerous very effective of the world we live in. Hatred is a psychic force and uh the way
00:32:00
it's being generated around the world at the moment and mobilized and focused is
00:32:05
um it's got to be bad for all of us >> especially when we have such powers to
00:32:09
self-destruct. It's terrible. This This is what drives me nuts is is looking at
00:32:14
the low consciousness level of the so-called leaders on this planet. When I look around the whole bunch of them,
00:32:22
I just see very low consciousness individuals who define everything in material terms. uh who who are who are
00:32:31
who are focused on this also gets me into trouble but I I think nationalism is something that
00:32:38
humanity needs to grow out of we need to grow out of nationalism it's just an
00:32:43
extension of tribalism we need to grow out of it soon and let me be clear I am not talking about world government I
00:32:53
don't want anything like I don't want any government I'm an anarchist
00:32:55
basically and that's what anarchy means it means without government I don't not
00:32:59
any government at all. But we have to get past this notion that by accident I was born with this particular skin. You
00:33:07
know, the notion is that this these accidents of birth define us. That we must somehow massively respect and love
00:33:15
people who look like us and and and kind of hate and fear people who don't look
00:33:19
like us. We have to get past that. We have to get past that as a species. It's
00:33:23
really important. All human beings everywhere all the same fundamentally. Of course, we're vastly diverse. We have
00:33:29
we have incredible different gifts. I value and appreciate the differences in different cultures all around the world.
00:33:37
This is wonderful. But it doesn't have to come with and we are better than you.
00:33:41
Uh and we're going to kill you because you don't share our ideas. This is
00:33:45
insane. It's crazy. We're not a mature species. We're we're a childish species.
00:33:49
And leading our species are leaders who have the mentality of um deranged teenagers.
00:33:58
>> We elected them. >> Yeah, we did. Very unfortunately, which shows how easy it is to manipulate
00:34:05
uh the narrative in the world today. Today, who wins in elections isn't the best person, isn't the good person,
00:34:12
isn't the person who's going to do good, it's the best communicator who wins. So
00:34:16
this um ancient civilization that we could have theoretically forgotten, you were somewhat implying that maybe they
00:34:21
were right that their own actions >> caused the great flood as they say they they talk
00:34:28
about in mythology. >> I floated that notion. Yeah. Yeah. They might they might have been, but it's
00:34:33
enough to say that that's what they believed because that's what all the
00:34:36
myths say. The Noah story is prefigured in ancient Sumer um with um an almost identical flood myth. The gods are
00:34:45
angry. A great flood is going to be sent. The intention is to wipe out humanity.
00:34:51
But this this god who's called Enki says to Atraasis, "I'm going to save
00:34:56
you. Build a boat. Build it now. A big one. Put into it the seeds of all things that you will need. Bring each animal of
00:35:04
every kind into your boat." This is this is a kind of survival arc which is
00:35:09
exactly the same as Noah. Noah's arc is just copied on that. It's just borrowed
00:35:12
from that. And to people that say, "Well, these are just stories. These are
00:35:15
fictions that someone wrote and then they pass them down and there's no truth
00:35:18
in these things at all." >> They're welcome to say that. Uh I I I
00:35:21
just happen to think they're not. And and my job has been to make that case. I
00:35:26
do not claim that I have proved there was a lost civilization. Any archaeologist who says Hanok claims he's
00:35:32
proved that is lying. I don't claim that. I claim I'm puzzled and mystified.
00:35:36
And I'm going to I'm going to complete that journey as long as I can. I'm going
00:35:41
to carry on investigating and looking into all aspects of this because that's
00:35:45
what I'm here to do. >> And that lost civilization, you said they were seabbearing potentially.
00:35:50
>> Seafaring. Yeah. Yeah. >> Which means they had boats. >> Yeah. Yeah. So we know, for example,
00:35:55
that anatomically modern uh human beings reached Australia 60,000 years ago. That
00:36:00
those involve significant sea journeys. They reached Cyprus in the Mediterranean
00:36:05
14,000 years ago. Again, they involve sea journeys, not engine boats, not metal boats. You can do it on quite
00:36:11
simple craft. Look at look at the Polynesians. Look at the vast distances that they explored on outrigger canoes.
00:36:18
Uh so yeah, boats, but not our kind of boats. >> H I just don't understand how if they're
00:36:25
traveling the seas and boats, how they're they aren't classified as a civilization. Well, because according to
00:36:33
the mainstream model which I am trying to provide an alternative to, they never existed. There was no such people. They
00:36:40
never did these things. The maps are just coincidences, irrelevance, just odd. They put Antarctica, they put a a
00:36:46
land mass in Antarctica because they felt it would balance the world. That's
00:36:50
the theory that's given. And it's just to me it's not it's not satisfactory.
00:36:55
Doesn't it just doesn't add up. These things need to be explained. And it's
00:36:59
why it's why in every society which wishes to make progress, uh, mavericks, people who go against the grain, no
00:37:08
matter how much they have to take, are needed. They're needed in our society to
00:37:16
provide a balance to this overwhelming mass that science now occupies. Science has now come to occupy the space that
00:37:24
religion occupied in many people's minds. And again, I need to emphasize I'm not against science. Science.
00:37:30
Science is about to save my life. I have major heart surgery coming up in two weeks time. I'm not against it at all,
00:37:35
but I think it should be one weapon in our armory, not the only weapon. >> There should be a button just down below
00:37:42
here. And if it says subscribed, you're already subscribed. If it says subscriber, that means you're not yet.
00:37:48
And if you're not subscribed, please could you do us a favor and hit that button? It helps the show more than you
00:37:52
know. And according to the algorithm, you're someone that watches our show, but you haven't yet hit that button.
00:37:56
Thank you so much. >> One of the um things I was super curious about, cuz I was actually there last
00:38:01
last week, is this place, >> Giza. >> Pyramids of Giza. >> The great pyramid of Giza.
00:38:09
Here we look at it. Attributed to the pharaoh Kufu, who was a pharaoh of the fourth dynasty.
00:38:17
>> What is the mystery here? So again, pyramids are this big stack of like
00:38:21
concrete blocks in Egypt. >> What is the Why is it so mysterious? >> Well, first of all, they're not
00:38:26
concrete. They're they're human limestone um and granite. Uh first of all, it's mysterious for the sheer size
00:38:34
of it. Look. So you got roughly 750 ft along each side. Okay? And they vary in length by
00:38:45
only fractions of an inch. they've got it just about spot-on exact on the side
00:38:50
length. And you want that in a pyramid because if you get it wrong, you're going to end up with a corkcrew rather
00:38:56
than a pyramid. If you get it wrong at the bottom, those errors are going to magnify and they're going to get worse
00:39:01
and worse and it's not going to be a pyramid at the end of the day. Secondly,
00:39:06
weight calculated at about 6 million tons, more than 2 million individual blocks of
00:39:13
stone. I've climbed the pyramid five times. Once I climbed it, when there was
00:39:18
an event taking place on the Giza Plateau, picnics basically, and and a lot of Kyne just decided to climb the
00:39:26
pyramid. As I say, I've climbed it four other times without other people there,
00:39:29
but this time there were hundreds of people on the pyramid. That's when I realized how difficult this thing is to
00:39:36
make because the biggest danger was the other people. Once you're up two or three courses, you fall, you're dead.
00:39:42
It's uh it's a 52° slope. there's no way you're going to stop. You're going to
00:39:47
come down and still every year people die on the Great Pyramid. That's why they've made it illegal to climb it now.
00:39:53
So, there's that. Then there's the almost perfect alignment of the Great
00:39:57
Pyramid to true north. Not to compass North, which is about 10 or 11 degrees off true north, but to astronomical
00:40:04
north, real north. The Great Pyramid is aligned within 3 60ths of a single degree. I put it that way because
00:40:11
degrees are divided into 60 minutes. So, 3 minutes of arc. The Great Pyramid is aligned to that level of precision,
00:40:17
360ths of a single degree to true north. And they've done that on a 6 million ton
00:40:22
monument which is 481 ft high if you take account of its original height which has a 52° slope which is filled
00:40:29
with internal corridors and spaces, Grand Gallery, the ascending, the descending corridors. All of this is
00:40:38
extremely difficult to do. It is it's not impossible to do because we see it
00:40:42
there. Uh, could our civilization do it? Yeah, I think we could. Uh, but would we
00:40:48
do it? No, I don't think we would. Uh, the motive wouldn't be there. People
00:40:51
say, "What the why? I mean, why do you want to align it perfectly to true north? It's enough to ask me to build a
00:40:57
6 million ton monument, but you want it aligned to true north as well. Come on. I mean, that's a really difficult
00:41:03
specification. We'd find that hard." um a kind of artistry was put to work on the Great Pyramid as
00:41:11
well as skill. Let's get rid of any notion that slaves were involved. They were not there. There wasn't slavery in
00:41:18
the Old Kingdom anyway, but this is a work of love from the first to the last stone. It's a work done with great skill
00:41:24
and care. It's a beautiful and extraordinary thing both inside and out. It sits almost exactly on latitude 30
00:41:34
which is 1/ird of the way between the north pole and the equator. And uh it incorporates the dimensions of the earth
00:41:42
on a scale of 1 to 43,200 in its own dimensions. So if you take the height of the great pyramid and
00:41:49
multiply it by 43,200. I'll explain why that number matters. Multiply it by that number, you get the
00:41:56
polar radius of the earth. Measure the base perimeter of the Great Pyramid. multiply it by the same factor, 43,200,
00:42:03
and you get the equatorial circumference of the Earth. Archaeologists know this. They say it's
00:42:10
a coincidence, total coincidence, just by chance. However, I I could agree with them actually if the scale was not 1 to
00:42:18
43,200. But the fact that it's 1 to 43,200 changes everything because that belongs
00:42:25
to a sequence of numbers that is found in ancient mythology all around the world. And those numbers are all
00:42:32
multiples of the number 72. And I mentioned at the beginning of our discussion the book by the great
00:42:39
historian of science Giorgio de Santiliano professor of the history of science at MIT. He was the first to
00:42:46
identify that these numbers and the imagery that go with them derive from a phenomenon called the precession of the
00:42:53
equinoxes. I better explain that a little bit. The procession of the equinoxes. Everybody's heard the song We live in
00:43:00
the dawning of the age of Aquarius. I'm sure you've heard that. >> Uh no comment.
00:43:07
>> We live in the dawning of the age of Aquarius. That's astrology at the moment. And for
00:43:13
the last 2,000 years on the spring equinox, the sun has risen against the background of the constellation of
00:43:20
Pisces. That's the age of Pisces. We live in the age of Pisces. It's not an accident that
00:43:26
the early Christians used the fish as their symbol. >> The next constellation on the zodiac
00:43:32
when you go backwards around it is Aquarius. And the procession is actually caused by
00:43:38
a wobble on the axis of the Earth. I'm going to pretend that this is the Earth.
00:43:42
>> Okay. >> And instead of just doing this, while it's doing that, it's also doing that.
00:43:48
It's wobbling. >> And that affects the rising time and season at which particular stars rise.
00:43:53
It affects two things noticeably. One thing it affects is the pole star. At the moment, the pole star is Polaris.
00:44:00
The pole star, this is astron astronomical north. It's the star towards which the extended north pole
00:44:06
pole of the earth points most directly. >> Okay. At present, it's Polaris. It
00:44:11
hasn't always been Polaris. 4,000 years ago, it was Thuban in the constellation
00:44:14
of Draco. That's because the Earth's axis is doing this. At the horizon, it
00:44:19
does the same thing with the zodiacal constellations. We shift gradually through each constellation lasts about
00:44:25
2,000 years in each constellation. The great year where we come back to square one is just under 26,000 years. 25,920
00:44:33
years is the convention that's applied in ancient mythology. So, the fact that
00:44:38
one of those numbers is the scale used to encode the dimensions of the earth in the Great Pyramid cannot be accidental
00:44:45
in my view. It's a deliberate choice. If it was 1 to 57,000, I wouldn't pay attention to it. If it
00:44:51
was 1 to 21,000, I wouldn't pay attention to it. But 1 to 43,200, that's the number of syllables in the
00:44:58
Rigveda, for example. You find this all over the world, everywhere. >> So, what does that imply or suggest? Uh
00:45:04
what it suggests is that incorporated into the building of the great pyramid was knowledge that was not supposed to
00:45:11
have existed 4 and a half thousand years ago. In fact, knowledge that was not supposed to have existed until 2,000
00:45:17
years ago. Hypocus of Alexandria is the Greek who was supposed to have discovered procession. Uh but the
00:45:23
incorporation of procession in the structure of the Great Pyramid says to me that that knowledge is much older. It
00:45:30
was already old then. I really want to make sure I'm clear on this procession
00:45:33
thing because I'm not not super clear. Yeah. Um, what does it what does it mean
00:45:37
procession? It means that there's a certain star pattern that we see once every 20,000 years.
00:45:42
>> It it it it precesses. It goes backwards. The direction through the through the zodiac is is forwards in the
00:45:49
normal year, but in the long term year because of the wobble, the sun rise against the background of the spring
00:45:56
equinox. The sun rises perfectly due east. It always does. It also rises perfectly due east on the autumn
00:46:01
equinox. On the summer solstice, the sun rises in the northern hemisphere north of east and south of east on the on the
00:46:08
winter solstice. The key moment for the ancients was the equinox. It was considered to define the character of
00:46:15
the year. And what defined it was the constellation that housed the sun that was the house of the sun.
00:46:22
>> Okay. So the star pattern. >> Yeah. The a zodiacal constellation.
00:46:27
These the constellations of the zodiac lie along what is called the ecliptic, the path of the sun.
00:46:33
>> Okay. >> Okay. The earth, the moon, we're all on the ecliptic within a few degrees above
00:46:38
or below it. And and therefore, these are constellations that we can see the sun against the background of.
00:46:45
>> Constellation like Orion, you'll never see the sun against the background of
00:46:48
it. You're only going to see it against the background of the zodiacal constellations that lie on the so-called
00:46:54
path of the sun. And those are the 12 familiar constellations of the zodiac. And as I say, we're living in the age of
00:47:01
Pisces right now. And uh according to ancient astrology, we're going to be making the transition into Aquarius
00:47:08
within about the next 150 years. The sun will have left Pisces and will be rising
00:47:13
in Aquarius. So actually, the song is true. We do live in the dawning of the age of Aquarius. The only question is
00:47:18
whether that means anything or not. The ancients thought it did. Uh we think it doesn't. Uh, I'm not sure who's right.
00:47:25
>> So, I'm going to repeat this back to you to check if I'm I've got it correctly,
00:47:28
but I suspect I might not have. Within the design of the pyramids, there was a number which you said was 43,000.
00:47:35
>> It's a scale. >> It's a scale. >> It's a scale that's used for the height
00:47:39
and the base perimeter of the Great Pyramid. Base perimeter, measure, four sides, add it together. Height, the
00:47:46
actual height of the Great Pyramid. It's true original height. It lost about 30
00:47:49
feet in an earthquake in 131. But you can calculate the true original height from the angle of the of the sides.
00:47:57
>> Ah yeah right. >> Um and when you take that height >> and multiply it by 43,200
00:48:05
you get the polar radius of the earth. >> You get the radius of the earth.
00:48:09
>> That's from the center of the earth to the edge of the earth. It's not the
00:48:12
diameter of the earth. The diameter is twice the radius. >> It's the it's the polar radius. Okay.
00:48:18
>> A key dimension of the earth. measure the sides and you get on the same scale
00:48:24
1 to 43,200, you get the equatorial circumference of the Earth, what the Earth measures at its equator, its
00:48:30
largest its largest measure. Um, and and that uh is either a coincidence or it's
00:48:37
deliberate. And because of the number chosen and because that number is all over ancient mythology, I think it's
00:48:44
deliberate. >> That means that they must have known the circumference of the Earth.
00:48:48
>> Yeah. It means they they knew the circumference of the earth and it means
00:48:51
they chose a place to put the great pyramid which also was relevant. Uh this isn't latitude 23 or latitude 37. This
00:49:01
is just a fraction off latitude 30° north. So therefore 1/3 of the way between the equator and the north pole.
00:49:08
It's a it's a re it's a significant relevant. What it's telling us is this
00:49:13
monument speaks to the earth. This monument is locked into the true north of this planet. This monument gives you
00:49:19
the dimensions of this planet. This monument is speaking to this planet. >> How could they possibly know the
00:49:26
circumference of the Earth 4,500 years ago? >> Because they're a lost civilization
00:49:30
because the the knowledge comes down from a former time. I don't think the Egyptians knew it. I think it came down
00:49:36
I think it was inherited knowledge from what I'm here to advocate for and to
00:49:43
speak for the possibility of a major forgotten episode in the human story >> which could be 20,000 years ago and
00:49:50
they've passed it down in in myths and stories. >> Yes, passed it down but not only in
00:49:55
myths and stories. Um, this is something else that I will I'll just hint at here
00:50:01
that I intend to get into in the new book is that there appear to have been organizations
00:50:07
in each of these civilizations. In Egypt, they were called the followers of Horus.
00:50:15
In Sumer, they were called the Akcaloo. They served as advisers to kings. They were called sages. There's a reference
00:50:23
to them. Many cultures refer to them as the seven sages. They provided advice to
00:50:28
kings in the historical period. And I'm wondering whether we're looking at some
00:50:33
kind of longived organization here which is carrying down information looking for
00:50:39
the right time to switch the engine of civilization back on again. I know it's
00:50:45
sounds extreme but uh that's what I do. I explore I explore extreme ideas and
00:50:50
see whether and see whether they fit or not. And I'm beginning to find this idea
00:50:55
does fit it. It fit it fits with a whole range of information which will be in the next book.
00:51:00
>> A sage that reports to the king. And >> it not only reports to the king but
00:51:04
advises the king >> on what? >> On everything on what to do. Oh okay.
00:51:08
>> Yeah. >> The abcalu in the ancient traditions of Sumer they existed in the pre-deluvian
00:51:15
world. They were there in the world before the flood. Then there and and they taught mankind knowledge then. But
00:51:24
the flood came, the cataclysm came, they were wiped out. But some of the abcalu survived and they appear after the flood
00:51:31
as advisers to the earliest historical kings of Sumer. And I'm just wondering
00:51:36
whether you know there are there are religions in the world which have maintained traditions and maintained
00:51:45
offices, priesthoods for example for thousands of years. I don't see why the
00:51:49
same shouldn't be true here. Why there shouldn't have been some driving motive
00:51:53
at the end of the ice age to preserve in a way what they knew and to find mechanisms to pass it down. One
00:51:58
mechanism is to embed it in wonderful stories that will go on being told. And another mechanism is to set up some kind
00:52:05
of secret society which is operating behind the scenes to guide and steer society. I'm not going to present the
00:52:12
evidence for that here, but it's an avenue I'm pursuing. If I if I don't
00:52:16
find it a satisfactory avenue, I'll abandon it. But at the moment, it's looking very interesting.
00:52:21
>> Then where did all this information go? You know, because if the people who
00:52:26
built the pyramids of Giza had this information, where did the sages go and with their information?
00:52:30
>> Yeah, it's very it's very odd actually what what happens after Giza is
00:52:34
fascinating. Um because once you once you leave the fourth dynasty period, get into the fifth and sixth dynasties,
00:52:43
pyramid building collapses. The stuff they're making in the fifth dynasty, like the pyramid of Unas, fifth dynasty
00:52:50
pyramid in Sakara. Inside it's stunningly beautiful. Beautiful tomb chamber, stars on the
00:52:59
ceiling, incredible hieroglyphs on the side. It's magical. But outside it's
00:53:05
just a pile of dust. It's a mess. It doesn't even you could hardly recognize
00:53:09
it as a pyramid. And it's true of all those. So this is odd in itself. Normally when human cultures create
00:53:17
something they continue to work on it and it tends to get better and better not worse and worse. So it's odd what
00:53:24
happens to the pyramids that they get worse and worse in Egypt. It's like job
00:53:27
done that move on and that's there and that's going to speak to human beings
00:53:34
not just for a generation, not just for a hundred years. It's going to be there
00:53:38
speaking to us for thousands of years. It's going to be sitting there on the
00:53:41
Giza plateau like an enormous question mark calling towards it those who don't
00:53:46
see it just as a heap of stones but actually see it as something wonderful and magnificent and mysterious calling
00:53:52
them to and saying learn about me figure me out and in the process of learning about me you're going to learn so much
00:53:59
else well in learning about the great pyramid I find that it is encoded with astronomical information that should not
00:54:05
be there if the current model of the history of science is correct. I think the current model of the history of
00:54:12
science is wrong. I think this information was known much earlier and it's encoded in the great pyramid. Once
00:54:17
I know that, then I have to start thinking what else does that mean? And what else it means to me is a big
00:54:24
forgotten episode in our story >> again. Why? Because they had intelligence that they're not credited
00:54:30
with having at that time. >> Yes. Because it's there. Because there should not be a monument of this scale
00:54:38
which incorporates into it information that was not supposed to be available to human beings for another 2 and a half
00:54:43
thousand years. >> So they must have got it from somewhere. >> Yes, they must have got it from
00:54:47
somewhere. And and uh the fact that it's there is is just a fact. All that's left
00:54:53
for us to say is either it's a coincidence, complete coincidence, or it's the result of a deliberate
00:55:02
decision. And if it's the result of a deliberate decision, that weighs much more towards a deliberate decision
00:55:08
because of the scale chosen because the scale is part of a system that is found all over the ancient world. It's not a
00:55:15
random number. It's a very specific number. uh and it's a number that is
00:55:19
derived from a motion of the earth itself from the precession of the earth's axis. It is derived from that.
00:55:25
So I'm situated at a significant latitude. I'm oriented to true north and
00:55:31
I incorporate the measurements of your planet on a scale derived from your planet itself. That's what the Great
00:55:38
Pyramid is saying to us. And it's saying figure that out. >> Do you think there's something
00:55:43
underneath it? >> Oh, there's definitely something underneath it. Because we think of it as
00:55:47
a sort of like building with the with tunnels inside it. But >> yeah, when you go into the great pyramid
00:55:51
now, you go in through what is what is called the robber's tunnel or Mammoon's
00:55:57
hole. The Khalifa Mammoon had a notion that there would be a entrance to the Great Pyramid in its northern face.
00:56:05
Other pyramids had been found with entrances in their northern face, but at that time the Great Pyramid was
00:56:10
completely covered with perfectly smooth limestone facing stones and nobody could
00:56:14
see the entrance. They came off later in that earthquake in 13001, but when he broke in in the 9th century, they didn't
00:56:21
know where the door was. Apparently, there was a place you could almost literally press a switch and open that
00:56:27
door, but they couldn't find it. So, they broke in with sledgehammers and chisels and they smashed their way into
00:56:32
the Great Pyramid. And then at a certain moment when they're about 60 or 70 ft
00:56:37
into the Great Pyramid, they hear something dropping in a hollow space. a big something has fallen in a hollow
00:56:44
space. They head towards that sound and then they enter the original corridor system of the Great Pyramid. And that's
00:56:51
the way we all go in now. We go in through that robber's tunnel and then we go up the Grand Gallery, but we can also
00:56:56
go down. We can go down to the subterranean chamber, which is 100 ft vertically beneath the base of the Great
00:57:03
Pyramid, deep in the bedrock. I actually think that was the original sacred site
00:57:08
on that monument is that subterranean chamber. I don't advise anybody with claustrophobia to go down there. You're
00:57:16
very conscious that you got a 6 million ton monument sitting right above you and
00:57:19
it place that has earthquakes. Um it can be quite oppressive, but that's just a
00:57:25
hint of what's under the Giza plateau. That's just that's an accessible bit. Uh
00:57:29
but it's it's it's already obvious that there that there is so much more. Some
00:57:34
of it's being picked up with ground penetrating radar. And I'll take this
00:57:37
opportunity to say that the hysterical reaction of mainstream scientists to the announcement by Filippo Beyond uh
00:57:47
>> what is he saying? >> He's saying that there are enormous structures under the second pyramid that
00:57:51
not the great pyramid under the pyramid attributed to Kafrey Kufu's successor.
00:57:56
the the structures that go hundreds of feet deep under there, structures that involve spiral
00:58:04
kind of stairways. The reaction has been overwhelmingly dismissing this. Archaeologists have not they won't look
00:58:10
further. They say it's impossible and they won't look at it. And I think
00:58:14
that's shameful for people who imagine they're scientists. They should be
00:58:18
looking further. I'd like to see the technology trial in Turkey. There are underground cities in Turkey, Kaimaki,
00:58:24
for example. we know every room in those underground cities. Run this technology
00:58:29
on them. If they accurately reproduce what we already know is there, then we can be pretty sure they're accurately
00:58:35
reproducing what's under the Giza pyramids. We need to do a lot more work before dismissing this. So, I'm I remain
00:58:40
open to the notion that a huge underworld awaits discovery under Giza. And the ancient Egyptians themselves
00:58:47
felt that way. They felt that Giza, the ancient name for it was Rosttow. It was an entrance to the underworld. They saw
00:58:53
it as an entrance to the afterlife realm. It makes sense that there would be much much underground structures
00:58:59
there. >> And you've been alone in the pyramids. >> Being with large groups in the pyramid
00:59:03
is difficult in the sense that the pyramid to me feels like a personality. When I'm in there with a large group, I
00:59:09
I feel the pyramid withdrawing. It it it's like it doesn't want to speak to
00:59:13
you anymore. It's the place becomes a dead space. But but if you can be in there with a very small group or be
00:59:19
there alone and just be still, let the silence descend. Sit in that silence in the very low lighting that's
00:59:29
in there. Just pause and remind yourself that you're in the last surviving wonder of the ancient world
00:59:38
and it's an incredible privilege to be there. And just let it speak to you. And it
00:59:44
does. This is of course my critics will say another proof that Hanok's a lunatic. Uh but uh I'm just telling you
00:59:51
what what what what happens to me. It's a I I think it's a monument that
00:59:55
communicates. >> What did it say to you? >> It said to me go further
01:00:01
very much so. I I I I feel in a weird way validated by the Great Pyramid. I think it's um not only me,
01:00:13
others as well who've devoted big chunks of their lives to the great pyramid like
01:00:18
Robert Baval who is a great man by the way. The Orion correlation, the recognition that the three pyramids on
01:00:25
the ground are laid out in the pattern of the belt stars of the constellation of Orion makes radical and important
01:00:30
changes to our understanding of ancient Egypt. Again, that's another thing that's been leapt upon by the
01:00:35
archaeological mafia, uh, because they want to destroy every new idea, uh, rather than spend a bit of time thinking
01:00:41
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for 15% off. Keep that to yourself. If what you're saying is true around the, you know, the first civilizations
01:02:50
being 20 plus thousand years ago, what does that mean for us, for our lives? >> Oh, it's really important meaning for us
01:02:59
because because it will finally remind us and tell us once and for all that we're not what it's all about.
01:03:06
>> It's not all about us. The whole human story is not about us. It's not
01:03:10
inevitable that it comes to this and that we are temporary like every other civilization. We're so filled with
01:03:17
arrogance and pride right now in our technological achievements, our great abilities, our great powers
01:03:24
and uh the arrogance that comes with that. The Greeks used to call that hubris. It's ultimately ends in nemesis.
01:03:32
Ultimately brings you down. Arrogance arrogance is not a good thing. It's not
01:03:37
a good thing in an individual and it's a terrible thing in a civilization. >> It also means that a lot of the things
01:03:43
that we've dismissed as you know conspiracy or you know hocus pocus whatever might not be. I mean you talk a
01:03:51
lot about like astrology and stuff like that and >> yeah I think we should keep open to to
01:03:56
systems that the ancients used which we've dismissed like >> which might be very astrology is one of
01:04:02
them. What does astrology ultimately say? It it ultimately says that we these beings these humans aren't
01:04:10
isolated but are connected to the universe and are affected by everything that happens in the universe and it's
01:04:17
and it's recognizing that there may be patterns in that and instead of instead
01:04:21
of just rubbishing that or doing a few investigations I think it may be worth looking further into that worth looking
01:04:28
further into telepathy too my friend Rbert Sheldrich a serious scientist one of the very few who's doing serious
01:04:34
scientist ific work on issues like telepathy and like telekinesis, being able to move things
01:04:41
with your mind. Mainstream scientists, most of them will just laugh at that. Absolute rubbish. Yeah, go away. You're
01:04:47
a lunatic. But why are we lunatics to look into those things? It's really interesting and it's really worth
01:04:53
investigating. We re should realize that we have a heritage of hundreds of thousands of years and I believe it's
01:05:00
even older than 315,000 years. We do not have a heritage of a hundred years, which is the heritage of modern science.
01:05:08
Well, let's let's be generous. Let's put modern science even back to the Greeks
01:05:13
in a way. But it doesn't become what we would recognize as science until the
01:05:18
19th century really. So, it's a very young thing on if you take the human being as the as the heart of this and
01:05:26
and and you were to find a little pimple on the nose of that human being, that would be science. It's a pimple on the
01:05:33
nose of hundreds of thousands of years of human experience. Why should we be so arrogant to dismiss those hundreds of
01:05:41
thousands of years of human experience in the favor of 150 years maximum of so-called science?
01:05:47
>> I mean, one of the interesting things is I actually did go to the Amazon
01:05:51
rainforest in Peru. Um, >> and they've discovered these like big square things underground.
01:05:57
>> I've been involved in that. >> What is What is that? Well, the the name
01:06:00
that's being given to them is uh is geoglyphs. >> Geoglyphs. >> I think I know this one. Nobody knew
01:06:06
they existed at all until about 40 years ago >> really. >> And uh because the Amazon rainforest is
01:06:14
a rainforest and and densely covered with uh canopy. However, it's constantly
01:06:22
being settled. This is a problem in itself. It's constantly being settled. The Amazon is being cleared and it's
01:06:27
being turned into farms. It's the clearance of bits of the Amazon initially that exposed these huge
01:06:33
geometric structures. >> Mhm. >> Under the rainforest, no longer under
01:06:37
because they cleared the rainforest. Now with LiDAR, I've been involved with
01:06:40
Marty Parsonan. In fact, he was on my Netflix show. He's a archaeologist from
01:06:45
Finland and and with Alteo Ramanzi, a Brazilian geographer. Um what they're doing is a dense lidar survey of the
01:06:54
whole of Ara province in Brazil. This is in our Cray province as well. The areas
01:06:59
that are still under canopy rainforest and lidar can see through the canopy and it can see raised objects underneath and
01:07:06
it can actually give you the shape of that object. Then they can go in low u you know low impact just a few of them
01:07:13
go in check it out see what's there and then begin the archaeology on the site.
01:07:17
>> I mean this is a prime example. I've got um I've got a list here of things that
01:07:20
we used to believe and things that how those beliefs have changed. And one of them was that we used to believe that
01:07:26
the Amazon was an untouched wilderness. >> That's right. >> But in the 1970s, we discovered what, a
01:07:30
thousand of these structures >> at least. Uh they're confident now from
01:07:35
the LAR work that they're you're talking of thousands, 3, five, 6 thousand. There are also
01:07:41
roadways that run for 100 km plus. Uh there's absolutely no doubt that the Amazon once supported a population of
01:07:48
millions with um extraordinary clever management of rainforest. soils by creating a man-made soil that they call
01:07:57
terrapa. It's still used in Brazil today. We are having to completely reconceive the Amazon.
01:08:04
It was thought of as a pristine rainforest which a few human beings wandered around aimlessly in hunting
01:08:12
whatever. Now we know that it was the homeland of a very large population who lived in
01:08:20
city-sized communities. um who joined those communities with long straight roadways.
01:08:28
It's it's as though the veil is being pulled back and we're beginning to see a
01:08:32
completely untold story in the Amazon. And these geoglyphs, very precise rectangles, triangles,
01:08:40
circles, squares, all of these it's geometry. It's geometry. What what's it
01:08:45
what's it doing there in the Amazon? And and when I when I talked to a local
01:08:49
shaman about this, and I did on on camera in the in the in the Netflix show, um he talked to me about how
01:08:55
important these places still are to him, that these places were made by their ancestors, that they're places for
01:09:01
shamanic gatherings, places for shamans to use specifically to contact the world beyond. Let's be
01:09:10
clear about this. All civilizations, including ours, although we may deny it, all of them emerged from shamanism.
01:09:16
Shamanism is the essence uh of the human adventure uh and and all civilizations emerge from shamanism. And this one was
01:09:24
shamanism. Yes. Shamanism being the system of using altered states of consciousness to gain direct access to
01:09:33
other levels of reality >> like psychedelics. >> Yeah, psychedelics or you can fast for a
01:09:39
month. Uh that will give you some visions too. Uh there there are there are other ways but but psychedelics are
01:09:45
the most efficient way to enter the altered state of consciousness and shamans are masters of the use of plant
01:09:51
medicines everywhere in the world but particularly in the Amazon rainforest. This is this is where you you see it
01:09:56
most strongly and DMT the active ingredient of awaska is very fast acting in the way that it's normally consumed.
01:10:03
Okay. It's normally vaped or smoked. Uh it produces a 10-minute journey literally to the other side of reality.
01:10:12
Uh and there's not much you can do about it once you're in there. But then you're
01:10:17
out again. Iaska is a very clever technology. The Iaska brew contains DMT. DMT is not orally active. So you can
01:10:28
drink a tea made of with loads of DMT in it and it's not going to do anything to
01:10:32
you because there's an enzyme in the gut that destroys it. >> The iawaska vine contains a chemical
01:10:40
that shuts that enzyme down and allows the DMT to be absorbed orally producing an experience that can last for hours
01:10:47
that can be physically very uncomfortable. Um what they're doing at Imperial College is they're giving them
01:10:53
DMT by intravenous infusion >> using basically anesthesia technology to constantly top up the dose to keep the
01:11:02
individual in the peak state and unlike other psychedelics there's no tolerance
01:11:06
with DMT so you can keep on dosing people >> when you you've taken OAS 80 times
01:11:13
>> something like that something like that um it's not just it's important to be
01:11:19
clear about a number of things. First of all, all psychedelics are extremely serious matters. They are not
01:11:28
to be taken trivially. They are extremely serious. With uh experienced use of Iawaska, one of the
01:11:35
very common reports is this moral dimension that you are presented with your own life, with what you've done
01:11:43
with your own life, with the pain that you may have caused to others. And suddenly that pain that you caused to
01:11:49
another person which you dismissed as they just deserved that they just deserve those words. You suddenly get it
01:11:54
from their point of view. You feel the agony that your words caused that person and you and you find yourself did I do
01:12:02
that? Did I say that? You suddenly see what you are. You can't go back into your own past and
01:12:11
change negative and useless and pointless things that you did. You can't do that. but you can avoid repeating
01:12:17
them in the future. And it's that teaching of a moral lesson uh that I find most valuable in Iawaska. It's
01:12:24
helped me to come to terms with my tendency to swift anger. I'm I'm very
01:12:29
aware that that's a problem I have and it's something I need to do something
01:12:33
about. And I I helped me with that. I' I've become gentler and and softer. Not
01:12:38
gentle enough, maybe. It's a journey. It's not a it's not an overnight
01:12:41
transformation. Not a magic pill. Uh the main work with Iawaska comes after the medicine. The main work comes with what
01:12:49
you do with the experience, how you integrate it into your life. That's where the work begins. People say, "Oh,
01:12:53
it's so easy to take a a brew." Well, it's not actually not that easy because
01:12:58
you're going to vomit and have diarrhea, but but easy. Um but that's where the
01:13:03
work begins, not where it ends. >> And that emotion is that does that stem
01:13:06
back to your relationship with your parents? Because I was reading about your early your early years.
01:13:11
Look, we're all frail human beings. We're all messed about in lots of ways.
01:13:15
We all have we all have issues in our lives. Um, >> you said regret. >> Regret. Yes, I I do regret saying
01:13:22
hurtful and unkind things to a number of people uh over the years. I do I do regret that very much. I do regret very
01:13:30
much that I wasn't I wasn't mature enough to realize why my parents were so difficult. Uh that I
01:13:38
never really forgave them for that. I never really forgave them for the stranges of my childhood and and uh the
01:13:47
various things that that that that happened. I never really saw it from their point of view. My mother lost
01:13:51
three children aside from me. I'm an only child, but her first child was carried to term before me and born dead.
01:13:58
Then I was born. I lived and then the next two both died at the age of a year. Well, I know now as a father, I know I
01:14:05
know what what quite a catastrophe that is for a person for a for a mother to to
01:14:10
lose three children like that. >> You said weird childhood. >> Yeah. So, this is me. This is little
01:14:19
Graeme here with my mother and my father. I was It was 1954 that we landed in India. My father was a
01:14:27
s consultant surgeon and so he went as a missionary surgeon to India to a place called the Christian medical college in
01:14:33
velour in south India. Um and we lived in a tin hut but he was following his faith. He was doing what was what was
01:14:40
right for him. He was giving his skills to help to help people. I I I realize that now and a lot of resentment I have
01:14:46
towards him I probably you know shouldn't have. Um he was an odd guy. He was very eccentric. He used to take me
01:14:54
in to watch dissections. Um the there were still hangings in India at that time and he would dissect the prisoners
01:15:02
after the hangings. He had me in there watching it. Um he took me later on. >> What age?
01:15:07
>> Uh uh five. >> You were watching bodies being cut up at five. >> I was. Yeah. Absolutely very strange.
01:15:13
See it was presented to me as completely normal. Um but but it was it it was strange. Fundamentally he was a good man
01:15:20
I believe. But I think allowing a 4 to 5year-old child be to see those things is deeply
01:15:29
traumatic in a way that you probably don't recognize until later. >> I I agree. It's it's come home to me
01:15:35
more and more as the years have gone by that what happened to me in those years in India
01:15:41
scarred me deeply. It wasn't just the operating theaters and the dissections,
01:15:47
the dissections. It was the gloom and the misery and the despair that settled over my family at that time and I don't
01:15:56
think I ever really recovered from that. >> Did you have nightmares? >> Yeah.
01:15:59
>> And what what were those nightmares? >> Um, usually nightmares of loss. Usually
01:16:06
nightmares of suddenly I'm alone. I'm in a I'm in a I'm completely isolated, lost, alone.
01:16:15
The reason I ask these questions is there's only ever been one other guest who I sat here with a couple of years
01:16:22
ago >> who I believe's dad was a surgeon. >> Mhm. >> And his dad brought him in to watch
01:16:29
operations and dissections when he was young. >> Yeah. >> And it scarred him in a way that he
01:16:35
didn't realize until later. Yeah. >> And he told me about the nightmares of
01:16:39
waking up in the night and seeing those bodies of those people around his bed on
01:16:43
a predictable basis and told me he actually um coached Michael Jordan >> and then um Kobe before Kobe Bryant um
01:16:53
passed away and he told me still as an adult those bodies join him at night time. So he'll wake up at nighttime and
01:16:59
he'll see them around >> around his bed. So >> well thank you universe. That didn't
01:17:03
happen to me. I I I do not have I don't remember having gruesome nightmares. I
01:17:09
remember a feeling of loneliness and abandonment. That's what I remember. >> Loneliness and abandonment.
01:17:15
>> Mhm. I've always felt that way. I was always an outsider at school. Uh
01:17:21
everywhere I've been all my life. That's what I'm for. I'm here to be an
01:17:26
outsider. I've come to that conclusion. And and uh I need to do that. Well, I
01:17:32
need to provide an alternative point of view on the past. >> There's a real cost to being an
01:17:36
outsider. >> Oh, yeah. But there are also some benefits. You know, we are what we are.
01:17:40
And and for me, I was always strange. I had this childhood in in in India. I didn't fit into the British school
01:17:47
system. I was a total failure at school. I could not connect. I could not connect
01:17:54
with any of it. It seemed I just didn't get it. What was this about? And and and
01:17:57
the cruelty, the viciousness. My dad went to a boarding school and had a good experience. So he sent me to a boarding
01:18:03
school in Durham in the north of England. It was the crulest place, beatings going on. I I was repeatedly
01:18:11
beaten about the bare buttocks by a sadistic headmaster with a cane. I couldn't fit in with the other kids at
01:18:17
school. And uh I don't feel victimized for being an outsider. I feel I feel it's a privilege. I feel I've been given
01:18:23
I've been given an opportunity to take a different view of things as a result of
01:18:28
being an outsider. >> Are there words unsaid here with these two people in your life?
01:18:33
>> Yes, there are there are so many words unsaid. I'd like to go back to my mom
01:18:37
and say, you know, I understand why you were so obsessed with keeping me alive and
01:18:42
making sure that I did something with my life. And I'd like to say to my dad,
01:18:46
look, you you were pretty crazy, but you you did at least inspire me to be eccentric.
01:18:52
It's a funny thing getting older. I'm 75, 76 in August. One of the things it
01:18:58
does is it you realize how collapsed life actually is. I remember being a teenager and I remember being a young
01:19:05
man and and I remember being middle-aged. And the feeling is you're immortal. It's going to go on forever.
01:19:10
Everything's going to go on forever. And it's long. It's long. Lots of time to do
01:19:15
the things you want to do. I have a message. No, it's not long. There is not
01:19:20
lots of time. If there's things you want to do with your life, start now. Start
01:19:24
right away. Don't wait. Otherwise, you'll not have the opportunity. Life is
01:19:28
very short. It's a beautiful, beautiful gift that the universe has given to us.
01:19:34
We are responsible for returning that gift by as far as possible within the circumstances that the universe has
01:19:40
given us living a full life and contributing something worthwhile to that life. Not being a robot, not being
01:19:49
commanded what to do, not We we need to learn to think for ourselves. This is something that is so easily forgotten.
01:19:57
It's a miracle that you and I are sitting here at all that I'm here, that
01:20:01
you're here, that we're here together. It's absolute miracle. It's a result of
01:20:05
billions and billions of years of processes in the universe which had nothing to do with us randomly bring us
01:20:11
together at this at this point. It's it's really quite a miraculous situation. To be alive, to be born at
01:20:16
all is a miracle. Um I think it was Voltater who talking about reincarnation uh who said um it's no more
01:20:24
extraordinary to be born twice than to be born once. Uh and I think there's a
01:20:29
point in that. >> Are you religious? You believe in a god or >> I would say that I am um that I pay
01:20:35
attention close attention to what I would regard as the spiritual non-physical side of life. Um but I do
01:20:42
not belong to any organized religion. One of the things I don't like about organized religion is that your
01:20:47
relationship to the divine, whatever you call the divine spirit world, whatever you want to call it, your relationship
01:20:52
is mediated in some way. Some priest or rabbi or müller teaches you how to mediate that relationship. And I I think
01:21:02
what's important in for me anyway in in the spiritual inquiry is a direct relationship, a direct experience.
01:21:08
Rather than being taught something, I want to experience it for myself. And that's why I found Iawaska very very
01:21:15
valuable. Um because it has enabled me to experience something that is absolutely impossible to experience in
01:21:21
normal everyday life. We're so plugged in. We're so plugged in to the physical
01:21:26
world and we have to be we've got to be we got to obey the laws of physics. We
01:21:30
got to deal with the economics of our circumstances. You know, we have to make our way through life. All of those
01:21:34
things we've got to do. Um, but if they become our total focus, we become shut off from everything and
01:21:45
anything else that may exist. And what the big psychedelics can do if they're
01:21:50
taken in the right circumstances with the right advice with sincere intention, what they can do
01:21:56
is get you out of your own way and allow you to connect to that wider realm that
01:22:01
normally you cannot connect to. And yes, I do believe that a wider realm exists.
01:22:06
uh just in the same way that uh you you know before the invention of the microscope we had no idea that there
01:22:13
were bacteria I think I'm right about that we start seeing these tiny little
01:22:16
things swimming around gosh major discovery well they were always there we just didn't have the kit to see them and
01:22:22
I'm suggesting that what psychedelics can be and certainly what they used as
01:22:25
shamans by for is a technology a device uh for getting you out of your own way and allowing you to connect with other
01:22:34
levels of reality that in daily life it doesn't serve you to be connected with.
01:22:40
>> The interesting thing about DMT in particular is when you speak to people
01:22:44
who have done DMT, you know, I spent about a year working in a quite a big psychedelics company just to I got
01:22:49
really fascinated. I'd left my company. I didn't have anything to do with my
01:22:52
time. So I started this podcast and I also uh on YouTube and I also started working at a psychedelics business cuz I
01:22:59
found the studies on mental health and psychedelics really interesting. So I have quite a deep understanding I guess
01:23:04
higher than average of IV gain and Iaska and DMT and my partner um is very very spiritual and has done all these things
01:23:11
as well. So >> one of the fascinating things is how similar people's experiences are on
01:23:16
something like DMT. the funnily enough your description of these creatures saying you're you belong to us now is
01:23:25
almost verbatim what what one of my friends described two weeks ago >> that they were teleported into this like
01:23:32
4K realm where these creatures that are like slightly animal in their anatomical
01:23:38
structure maybe slightly a little bit human as well >> basically was like had
01:23:43
>> had taken hold of him >> and they were very curious and inspecting him very colorful realm and
01:23:48
then they kind of sent him back or at least you know after the and and it does make one wonder. I think one of my
01:23:53
conclusions was if if inhaling a small chemical can completely take me to another place
01:24:00
>> then and and if you from a reasoning perspective it's just a it was an in one
01:24:04
inhale of a chemical then it goes to say that my current perception of reality >> is just is as fragile as an inhale of a
01:24:15
chemical. Like me thinking that I'm here with you now >> is as fragile as inhaling
01:24:21
>> one chemical. Yeah. >> So to think that this is base reality when the difference between this and
01:24:26
being with some grasshopper people >> in 4K >> Exactly. >> is literally an ale. It just that for me
01:24:33
I was like, "Oh, wow." Okay. >> It's an extraordinary realization when
01:24:37
that comes and it causes us to question the nature of reality itself. And this is um this is what's really important
01:24:44
about these medicines. First and foremost, you're right. the these um psychedelic medicines are proving
01:24:50
incredibly effective as therapeutic tools and that's great. I I I really I think that's incredibly valuable. But
01:24:57
there's another level to go which is to the inquiry into the nature of reality
01:25:02
and the inquiry into what consciousness is. These medicines are very effective means to conduct that inquiry. And
01:25:09
that's why I applaud what they're doing at Imperial College in London. They're
01:25:13
also going to be doing trials at the University of California, San Diego. Um they're going to be doing trials in
01:25:20
Costa Rica. Uh a whole range of places now are looking into this because it's
01:25:24
really interesting people coming back and reporting the same experience when they haven't compared notes yet.
01:25:30
>> How do we explain that? Because it's in a vision >> and people say that at the moment the
01:25:36
default mode is to dismiss it and say that's just rubbish. Don't waste time on
01:25:40
it. Our preconceptions about the nature of reality should not limit our inquiry into the nature of reality. And at the
01:25:49
moment still unfortunately there are preconceptions about the nature of reality which is that it's materialbased
01:25:56
that there's nothing else to it really. Everything is reduced to matter. Even
01:26:00
consciousness is reduced to matter. It's reduced to the physical matter of the
01:26:05
brain. We don't know that for sure. We don't know what's going on. consciousness is absolutely not
01:26:10
understood. And so when we have mysteries like people who are injected a small dose of a chemical like DMT and go
01:26:17
off into a completely other reality, that's really interesting. And it's it's
01:26:22
it's it's at least as interesting, if not more interesting than exploring
01:26:27
other planets right now. I think we need to I think we need to explore ourselves
01:26:31
first. We need to We're not in shape as a species to start exploring the universe. We don't want to export our
01:26:39
toxicity to other parts of the universe until we've overcome it, until we've
01:26:44
grown up as a species, which we haven't done yet. We need to know ourselves.
01:26:48
Psychedelics are one way to do that. Not used irresponsibly, but used responsibly
01:26:54
in a structured, careful, thoughtful way. They can be very helpful in knowing ourselves. That's the journey we need to
01:27:02
do first. Go to Mars by all means, you know, go to the moon. we go even further, but do this first. Know who you
01:27:09
are first before you start doing those bigger and wider investigations. Get all that sorted out because we're hardly
01:27:16
sorted out anything on this planet and we're talking about exploring other planets. Well, I'm all in favor of
01:27:21
exploring other planets, but I'd like to sort out things on this planet first.
01:27:25
That's where the resources should be going. And we should stop kidding ourselves that we can just escape this
01:27:30
planet and make a complete hole of it, leave it, and go and live somewhere else. No, we can fix this. We are
01:27:37
capable of fixing this. We're capable of fixing everything. Human beings have
01:27:41
enormous potential. We're just using a fraction of 1% of it at the moment. >> The question I, you know, I mean, the
01:27:49
obvious question that comes to mind is how I see, you know, maybe I don't know,
01:27:53
maybe some kind of leader comes along. >> Could be. Um, I think we need to need to
01:27:59
move past leaders. >> I just don't know how else humans would change without some kind of leadership.
01:28:03
It's very difficult to see. I agree with you. It's very it's very difficult to
01:28:06
see how it happens one person at a time um slowly through through word of mouth,
01:28:12
through experience. But look, everything in the Iawaska garden is not all flowers
01:28:17
either. There's a lot of very wrong behavior going on there. People are exploiting that medicine. Basically,
01:28:22
drug dealers are exploiting that medicine and offering it irresponsibly to people in groups of a hundred or even
01:28:29
more. that that that's that's actually really really stupid to do that. I Iaska
01:28:35
is an intimate experience and it needs to be done in a very small group, not a very large group.
01:28:41
So it's not it's not all roses. I'm not you know I'm not trying to paint these
01:28:45
medicines in a in in a false light. They have their downsides. They have their problems. They are extremely serious. We
01:28:52
should always research and investigate before any experience with psychedelics, but they have a part to play and it's an
01:29:00
important part. And thank God we're seeing its effects. Psilocybin effect on
01:29:04
long-term depression, very important. Post-traumatic stress disorder, very important. These therapeutic
01:29:11
breakthroughs hopefully will open the door to further inquiries into the kind of work that's being done at Imperial
01:29:19
College. What does this really tell us about the mystery of consciousness? What does this really tell us about what we
01:29:24
think is real? >> If you're thinking about starting a business, one of the first decisions
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you'll have to make is actually one of the most important, which is where do
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01:30:02
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01:30:17
out yourself. It's just already built into their platform. If you are serious
01:30:20
about starting your own thing, start your free trial at shopify.com/bartlet. >> Through your journey through um ancient
01:30:29
civilizations, what have you come to learn about what this consciousness thing is, if anything at all, or at
01:30:34
least what people believed. >> Yeah. >> Um and how those mythologies were
01:30:38
similar. >> Yes. I've partly I've partly come to this through the ancient texts. There's
01:30:43
a very specific uh scene in a number of the ancient Egyptianerary texts. It's
01:30:50
called the judgment scene. And what you see is you see the deceased entering into a hall into a room at the end of
01:30:57
which sits the god Osiris enthroned. And uh the deceased is led into the hall by the goddess Mart. She's recognized by
01:31:07
a feather that she wears in her headdress. She's the goddess of truth, justice, and cosmic harmony.
01:31:14
He enters the hall. There's a scale in the hall. In one pan of the scale is an
01:31:22
object that represents his heart, oblique, his soul. Heart and soul were the same thing for the Egyptians in that
01:31:29
sense. And in the other pan is the feather of mart, the feather of truth, harmony, and cosmic justice.
01:31:38
You do not want your heart to outweigh the feather at that moment. You want at the very least to be in
01:31:46
balance. And in order to be in balance then comes into question the whole way that you've
01:31:52
lived your life. Up on the wall of the hall there are 42 little figures. They're called the 42 negative
01:31:59
assessors. Each one of them is going to ask you a question. Did you steal? Did you kill? Actually, the ten commandments
01:32:05
are all in there and a lot more as well. Ideally, you should be able to answer no
01:32:11
to all of those questions, but the ancient Egyptians always understood how frail human beings are and that we can
01:32:17
always make mistakes. The question is, what do we do when we make a mistake? Do we learn from it or do we keep on
01:32:22
repeating it? And what I read into that is you were given, you deceased, you were given an incredible opportunity. We
01:32:31
allowed you to be born in a human body. You could have a range of experiences that no other physical form on your
01:32:38
planet could have. You you you had this huge brain. You had this enormous capacity. We gave it this to you. What
01:32:45
did you do with it? Did you use it well or did you squander it and waste it? And at that moment,
01:32:52
you'd better be there with some answers about how you used it well. So, as I
01:32:56
come towards the end of my life, I look very carefully at my life. I and um I try to undo wrongs that I have done in
01:33:05
the past if I can and I try to make sure I don't do any more in the future. I
01:33:09
want to be a nurturing and positive and useful person to the people around me. >> The the health situation you've gone
01:33:17
through has clearly made you quite introspective, probably more so than you you might have been 10 years ago, I'm
01:33:22
guessing. >> Oh, yeah. AB: Absolutely. I was still immortal 10 years ago. M
01:33:27
>> listen each and every one of us, every single human being on this planet could
01:33:32
die in the next minute. Life is that fragile. It's that sudden. You can never
01:33:37
predict you you how long you're going to live. But what something like this does,
01:33:42
it focuses the mind and it does make me wish more and more that I can leave this
01:33:48
life with as few regrets as possible and that I can feel that I played a useful and positive role in the life of others
01:33:58
and that I even played in some way a useful and positive role in the life of the species to which I belong. Are you
01:34:09
happy? >> I am very happy in a lot of ways. I'm blessed to have lived the life I've lived, to have
01:34:21
traveled the world, to have the adventures that I have had. I am blessed with a beautiful and wonderful wife and
01:34:28
companion. My wife Samtha >> got this wonderful picture of her. >> Yeah.
01:34:32
>> Glows. >> That's me and Samantha. We met when we were about 40 years old. And um I don't
01:34:39
think we've been apart more than 4 days in the entire 30 plus years uh since
01:34:45
then. >> Wow. >> Uh we do everything together. We travel together. Samantha's a photographer.
01:34:49
Brilliant photographer. And and and uh I do not have a great visual eye. So we work together. I do the words. Sa does
01:34:55
the pictures. We have the adventures together. We did the scuba diving together. Samantha nearly lost her life
01:35:01
twice in intense currents scuba diving. She's brave. She's an adventurer.
01:35:07
She's a wonderful mother. This is so important. Samantha and I have six children between us. Samantha brought
01:35:14
two from her previous marriage. I brought two from my first marriage and two from my second marriage. So, six
01:35:20
children from three broken marriages is a potential disaster. Santa brought them
01:35:25
all together into a group of loving, deeply committed siblings who care for one another, who are constantly in each
01:35:32
other's lives, who are there to support one another. SA did that by just being a
01:35:37
brilliant, loving person. So, I'm very happy to have such a great partner who's
01:35:44
stood by me through thick and thin and who's brought out these wonderful characters in in in our children and now
01:35:51
our grandchildren. You know, nine grandchildren, six grandkids, all of it's down to Santa. It's remarkable that
01:35:56
through all the wonders of human history and all the things we talked about that
01:36:00
love like this kind of romantic love is so central, so important, so central to our happiness. I just thought, oh, it's
01:36:09
it's just a wonderful reminder of um how easy it is to get caught up in the material and and all the toxic whereas,
01:36:16
you know, so much of it comes from just the simplicity of falling in love with someone.
01:36:20
>> Love is what it's all about. And and love is love is giving. It's giving
01:36:25
yourself to somebody else. It's putting the other person. Sorry, I'm going to
01:36:30
end up crying. This This is what my wife does all the time with everybody. She puts other people first and uh
01:36:41
others benefit enormously from that. I'm very fortunate. I think I think if I
01:36:47
hadn't met Samantha when I did and we hadn't formed this joint life, I think I
01:36:55
would have made nothing of my life. Nothing at all really. >> I think it would have just gone down the
01:36:59
tubes. I needed a loving steering hand at that point. Anyway, very lucky. I I I am happy. There are things that make me
01:37:06
unhappy, of course, just like every every every other human being. I I don't
01:37:10
understand why those who are bitterly opposed to my work want to try and present me as some kind of fraud or
01:37:17
grifter. But I suppose it's a easy way to lazily dismiss somebody else. Uh, another thing that has been used is
01:37:26
because I've considered the possibility of a lost civilization having an influence on other known historical
01:37:33
civilization. Uh I've been accused of racism as well that I've been I've been
01:37:37
accused of taking away the authenticity of indigenous achievements. Um and and that again has been without without any
01:37:46
receipts. It's not been it's just thrown out there as an accusation. Now for me
01:37:51
with with a multithnic family uh that racism abuse that has been thrown at me constantly uh is extremely hurtful and
01:38:00
extremely painful. It's one of the few things that have been thrown at me that
01:38:04
I actually cannot forgive. It's unforgivable to use that lazy easy dismissal
01:38:14
in a society where a lot of people don't read anymore. I mean, pretty much guarantee people who hear that on the
01:38:19
internet, they're not going to go and read the books and actually find out what I said. They're just going to take
01:38:23
it as face value. So, that does hurt and it does make me sad. But generally, I'm
01:38:27
blessed. I'm lucky. I've lived a fantastic privileged life. I've explored
01:38:33
the world. I'm surrounded by love and onwards and upwards as far as I'm concerned.
01:38:39
>> Well, you know, Graeme, I think at the end of the day, the thing that endures
01:38:43
is >> the impact, the curiosity that you've you've provoked in people, allowed them
01:38:48
to wander beyond the narrowness of our lives, which is quite miserable. >> A narrow life is feels quite like a
01:38:53
miserable life where you can't be open-minded and explore. And and that's
01:38:56
why I love these conversations. It's not to say that I that I always accept when
01:39:00
I have these kind of conversations everything to be 100% true, but the net benefit for me is just expanding my mind
01:39:06
>> to possibility. >> Absolutely. >> And like please don't rob me of the
01:39:09
opportunity to expand my mind to possibility. What would my life become without possibility or hope or these
01:39:16
things? And and actually when I look at >> graphs like this that show how our
01:39:20
beliefs uh and scientific understanding has changed even in recent times as as recent as 2017 on this particular graph.
01:39:27
I go well I have some arrogance to assume that I know it all today. >> Totally. Things things are constantly
01:39:33
changing. You know every turn of the spade in an archaeological dig can change the whole story.
01:39:39
>> Change the whole story. This is not limited to archaeology. This is found in
01:39:43
all fields where there are specialists that they they tend to get locked into a particular reference frame and actually
01:39:50
defend it in a territorial way. It becomes like a war and they they they feel absolutely responsible to defend
01:39:57
that territory against all comers and will use any dirty tricks that are needed to be used in order to defeat the
01:40:03
enemy. So you asked me a straightforward question. Am I happy? Yes, I am happy. And I honestly answered you that there
01:40:09
are certain things, particularly the racism assaults on me, that do make me extremely unhappy.
01:40:15
>> What else do I need to know about the the possibility of an ancient civilization that might inform how I
01:40:22
think about myself, my life, and I guess also our future. What I found so fascinating is especially we're in a
01:40:28
moment of this AI revolution where you've got these sort of big forces of you got nuclear weapons over here,
01:40:32
you've now got this advanced intelligence, there's humanoid robots on the horizon. And if there was ever a
01:40:37
moment where the word, you know, existential is being used in a in a way that is probably appropriate for me, it
01:40:43
feels like now. >> Yeah, feels like now to me, too. Uh this is uh no doubt uh our species is poised
01:40:51
on the edge of an abyss right now. Uh our technology has outgrown our mentality. Uh and we're not uh we're not
01:41:00
in good shape to deal with the challenges that lie ahead. I I un unfortunately the chances of a nuclear
01:41:07
exchange are just higher and higher. That's just a realistic assessment of the way the world is with these maniacal
01:41:12
leaders. So what could we learn from the past? We can I I I believe we can learn
01:41:17
that there's another way to live that we don't have to do it this way. >> I I that's that's something I believe.
01:41:24
>> Okay. Believe >> that's something I don't know. >> Okay. I guess I'm optimistic that human
01:41:29
beings have made it through all these centuries, all these thousands of years, all these hundreds of
01:41:36
thousands of years that we've made it through. We've made terrible mistakes
01:41:40
and terrible. I mean, look at the Second World War. God know how many people were
01:41:45
killed there. 20 million Russians alone if I remember correct. It was just horrific. Absolute horror. It's only
01:41:52
when I was born in 1950, the Second World War was only 5 years away. and at the end of it and it hung over us. You
01:41:58
know, you our our generation were aware of that, but it seems to me people today
01:42:03
aren't aware of the horror of global war in the way that they were and and and uh
01:42:08
that adds to the to the danger that we will emulate ourselves. I think a new approach to the nature of reality is
01:42:17
really vital. I think we we need to begin to understand consciousness better. Uh and what I would wish for the
01:42:24
human species is that we understand we are actually all one. Incredibly diverse,
01:42:32
full of creativity and differences, but but all one. And a mother in the middle of subsahara and Africa and a mother in
01:42:40
New York City, they love their kids in exactly the same way. They hope for their kids in exactly the same way.
01:42:47
There's no difference between them at all. As long as we're as long as we're
01:42:52
indoctrinated into this notion of divisive differences, I'm all in favor of differences between human beings.
01:42:59
That's part of our creativity as our species, but divisive differences, that's what's going to kill us off. Uh,
01:43:06
and that's, I think, the message that comes down from the past. Whether it's a
01:43:11
correct message or not, the message is we, a former civilization, made a terrible mistake. and it resulted
01:43:21
in a cataclysm that brought us down. I think we need to realize that can happen again. Uh and that we are most likely to
01:43:30
be the cause of that cataclysm ourselves. Uh there may there may be a danger of further comet impacts. The
01:43:37
younger drius comet fragments. It's called the torid meteor stream. The earth passes through it twice a year in
01:43:45
June and in October, November. Uh there are hundreds of deadly objects in the torid meteor stream. It could happen.
01:43:52
But I think a much more likely way that we're going to bring our civilization
01:43:58
back almost to the stone age is nuclear war. We're going to do it to ourselves.
01:44:05
Unless we wake up, unless we become more conscious of what it is to be a human being, of the privilege and the gift of
01:44:14
being a human being, and how that privilege of gift belongs to every human being, not just to us. But I don't know
01:44:21
how that's going to be done. I I I do think psychedelics can play a role. I've
01:44:26
said many times and I'll say it again. If I if I had the power to do so, I would insist that every world leader has
01:44:33
at least at least a dozen sessions of Iawaska before they even apply for the job.
01:44:40
>> Because you believe that would give them the same feeling of oneness that
01:44:43
>> I think most of them wouldn't apply for the job at all. >> Oh, really?
01:44:46
>> And those who did would would probably do a much better job >> because they'd understand themselves
01:44:52
better. Graeme, what is the most important thing we haven't discussed as it relates to
01:44:58
our past and what it might teach us or, you know, how it might inform how we choose to live our lives today? Um, that
01:45:04
we haven't discussed. Look, the most important thing as far as far as I'm
01:45:08
concerned is independent inquiry. We need to start thinking for ourselves and that's true of the past and it's true of
01:45:15
everything else. uh to the to the extent that I that I do get positive feedback from young people and I do a lot that
01:45:24
feedback is thank you for being an example to question everything. >> Mhm.
01:45:29
>> It happens that what I'm questioning is the past but that can be a model for
01:45:35
questioning everything. I I feel that that very poor journalism being used to smear my name because I
01:45:47
asked questions and because I asked them vigorously and because most important of
01:45:52
all I reached a large audience. That's it really. They won't sneer your name if
01:45:58
you don't reach a large audience. You're not worth their trouble. >> I know the feeling.
01:46:02
>> Yeah. But I think but you know for me my thing has always been that um all it's
01:46:06
done has made me clearer like you know you have a bigger platform more people um watching you etc and talking about
01:46:12
you all it's done for me is made me clearer on my principles and what I believe and I'm actually really thankful
01:46:18
for that in a weird way. Yeah, >> because you're forced to, you know, when
01:46:20
you hear so many things said about you or written about you, whatever, it does focus one minds on, okay, like who am I
01:46:26
and what matters? What am I where am I uncompromising in terms of the conversations I want to have, the way I
01:46:31
want to do it? And that's given me a huge amount of clarity and one of the things that I'm really
01:46:36
>> I really want to make sure is that it doesn't make me um bitter or resentful
01:46:40
in any way. >> Very important. >> And you can see how it happens. Yeah, I
01:46:44
can I can absolutely see how it happens >> because you you have to live with a sort
01:46:47
of um injustice potentially or being mischaracterized or whatever. So, it's easy to see how one can slip off into
01:46:54
bitterness and resentment and >> that's a that's a big part of the work
01:46:58
I'm doing on myself at the moment. I I'm confident that I am doing the right
01:47:03
thing with my life. I'm doing no harm to anyone and I'm putting ideas out there
01:47:07
that are worth thinking about. I'm confident of that. I have no I have no doubts about that. And what will you
01:47:13
care about on your on your last day? >> Most of all, the love of my family.
01:47:20
That's the most important thing to me. And um I don't know, the feeling that
01:47:28
I did my best. I did the best I could to carry out the task that uh fell upon me
01:47:36
quite by accident. I didn't I was a current affairs journalist in the 1980s.
01:47:41
I had no idea I was going to go down this rabbit hole into the ancient world. It was a series of accidents that led to
01:47:47
it. But having gone down it, I feel very very very committed to it. >> It's interesting because one of the ways
01:47:54
that I um I've always chosen to conduct my interviews is just to um judge people
01:47:58
as I find them. I remember once upon a time I had Brian Johnson coming on my podcast and you know he's quite a he's a
01:48:03
he has some radical beliefs about living forever etc. He's the longevity guy. And
01:48:07
I remember one of my team members walking up to me beforehand and saying before he had arrived and saying, "What
01:48:10
do you think of him?" >> And I remember saying, "I have no idea.
01:48:12
I've not met him yet." >> Yeah. >> And then I sat down with him, had this
01:48:15
interview, and he said this thing to me at the end of the interview where he goes, "Thank you." And I go, "What do
01:48:19
you mean?" He goes, "Thank you. This is the first time I've done an interview in
01:48:21
my life where the interviewer had like no preconceptions of me." >> And he goes, "It meant that I was
01:48:25
relaxed and able to be myself and blah blah blah blah." And I and I say that
01:48:28
because my opinion of you is someone who is really curious about about humanity and
01:48:36
has this interesting idea that is really expansive for one's mind about what
01:48:40
could have happened. And um again, the net benefit for me of that is just expanding my mind in a way that makes me
01:48:49
empathetic to other people. >> Yeah. >> Makes me feel like me and you aren't
01:48:53
different. >> Yeah. like I've met you today but we're probably you know we we we go back a
01:48:58
long way maybe consciously we're the same but >> in our history and our lineage we are
01:49:02
>> we are one of the same and um it also gives me a huge amount of respect for
01:49:09
other living things including my ancestors >> in a way that you kind of think of your
01:49:13
ancestors as these like monkeys that lived in trees potentially >> but actually hearing some of these
01:49:17
stories makes me go oh my gosh and actually it gives me a huge sense of responsibility
01:49:22
>> to leave this planet and this earth in a way that it's going to be good for, you
01:49:26
know, the future the future kids that will live 20,000 years from now in the future and that will probably look at
01:49:31
our um fossil records and wonder. >> I I think I think those of us who have a
01:49:35
a platform do have a responsibility >> very very very definitely. I mean, we're
01:49:40
living in this strange new world. This this world was inconceivable even in the beginning of the 1990s.
01:49:46
>> This this this world of communication that we live in now. And there's no
01:49:49
doubt that that um this is where influence can be applied. And and if that influence is
01:50:00
encouraging all that's good in the human race, then that's really great and it's
01:50:04
a wonderful thing. And if it's encouraging all that's dark and negative and cruel and unkind and vicious in the
01:50:09
human race, because that's also out there on the internet, >> then it's not so good.
01:50:14
Graeme, we have a um closing tradition on the show where the last guest leaves the question for the next not knowing
01:50:19
who they're leaving it for. And the question left for you is, is there a danger of us sleepwalking into
01:50:25
worshiping a machine god? >> You want me to answer that question? >> Yes, we're already worshiping a machine
01:50:33
god. As I said earlier in our discussion, uh in the minds of many, science has already been elevated to
01:50:40
occupy the space that was once occupied by religions. That is a belief in a machine
01:50:47
fundamentally that's taking place there. Science should be seen as a tool, one
01:50:52
amongst many tools that we as human beings have at our disposal. It should never be the only tool and it should
01:51:00
never be woripped. I don't ever want to hear the words, trust the science. The words for me are investigate the
01:51:09
science. See whether it's right for you or not. See what else is available in
01:51:14
the in the in the situation. Don't just routinely without thought, without question, trust the science. Don't do
01:51:21
that. That's that's betraying science as well. One of the fundamental ethics of
01:51:26
science is not to trust the science is to question and challenge the science. That's what
01:51:32
we should be doing with the science. And yes, we are in danger of creating a kind
01:51:37
of multi-dimensional machine which reaches into all aspects of human consciousness
01:51:43
and and controls us. Yeah. We got to stop worshiping science. That's for sure. We got to put it in its
01:51:51
rightful place as an incredibly valuable tool which which can do great things for
01:51:57
human beings but which can also do terrible harm and damage. >> Because when we trust science, there's
01:52:01
something we stop listening to. >> Well, when you put your trust in anything, you better have good reason to
01:52:07
put your trust in it. If I if I'm going to trust another human being with my
01:52:13
life, I I really want to know that I can trust that person. And I'm not just
01:52:17
going to say, "Oh, you're a doctor, so I trust you." No, it's not that's not
01:52:21
enough. I want to know more about that doctor. And uh in in indeed, I have pursued that just recently. Science is
01:52:29
great. Science is really useful, but we're not we're not being what we should
01:52:34
be. We're not living up to the potential that the universe gave us if we just go
01:52:39
around trusting everything all the time. We're here to ask questions. That's what
01:52:44
we got these enormous brains for. and this incredible connectivity is to ask questions. Anybody who says don't ask
01:52:51
questions is doing a great deal of harm. >> Well, I hope my audience are very
01:52:55
curious. Um, and I think they must be by now if they're still hanging around uh
01:52:58
on this platform because we've had lots of very curious conversations and hopefully expansive. I this acronym DOA
01:53:05
obviously stands for Draio, but also we think of it as like >> being for dreamers and open-minded
01:53:10
people, which is the O, and the A being about expanding awareness and the C really being about feeling more
01:53:14
connected. >> Brilliant. like hearing your story and about your partner and your journey and
01:53:18
your parents all makes me all, you know, I think it makes us like spiritually connected in a way that's increasingly
01:53:24
rare. >> If people want to learn and read more from you, Graeme, where do they go? I
01:53:29
mean, you've written so many wonderful books. You've got another one on the
01:53:31
way. >> I'll link all of these books you've written and the others that aren't here
01:53:35
below. >> Okay. Um, very briefly, the the the book that put me on the map was Fingerprints
01:53:41
of the Gods. >> Yeah. And that's the book where I really investigate begin to investigate the
01:53:46
possibility of a lost civilization. Before that came the sign and the seal which was which was about Ethiopia's
01:53:53
claim to possess the lost ark of the covenant. It happened that as a reporter in the 1980s I spent a lot of time in
01:53:59
Ethiopia and I came across this tradition which is fundamental to all religious life in Ethiopia. uh and and
01:54:07
um ended up writing a book about it that put me on the track of a lost civilization led to fingerprints of the
01:54:13
gods. Then after fingerprints of the gods, there's a book that's not here
01:54:17
which is keeper of genesis that I wrote with Robert Bval underworld. This was seven years of scuba diving that Sam and
01:54:25
I did all around the world following up tips from local fishermen, local divers.
01:54:31
They'd seen something interesting, something that looked man-made at a depth of 30 m just offshore there and
01:54:37
they would take us and we would find it. Uh so underworld is about all those flooded continental shelves. 27 million
01:54:45
square kilmters of continental shelf were flooded at the end of the ice age. That's 27 million square kilmters.
01:54:51
That's Europe and China and a bit more combined. uh were the best real estate
01:54:56
on Earth uh 20,000 years ago and are all underwater today >> and and there's signs that there was
01:55:02
life there. >> Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. >> Civilizations there.
01:55:05
>> Yeah. Well, we found very large structures underwater. Um so that's
01:55:09
that's uh underworld. Then after underworld I wrote supernatural which is that one there which has been reissued
01:55:16
in America under the title visionary. And that's where I went deep into the shamanistic medicines, the the iawasa,
01:55:26
psilocybin, and and and the whole notion that cave art, the art that we see in the painted
01:55:32
caves is an art of visions, that this is shamans who had entered deeply altered states of consciousness. They'd
01:55:41
remembered what they'd seen, and when they came back to the everyday state of
01:55:45
consciousness, they painted their visions in caves. is the best explanation for cave arts and why cave
01:55:50
art is so similar all around the world and so similar to the visions of Iawaska shamans to this day.
01:55:56
>> Graham, thank you so much for all that you do. I won't repeat every all the
01:55:59
reasons why, but you've you've blown my mind open in a way that's just driven
01:56:02
curiosity. And um I think that's maybe the start of all inquiry is deep curiosity. And that's what you've done
01:56:07
for not just myself, but the hundreds of millions of people that have watched you
01:56:10
over the years um all over the world and I hope long may it continue and good luck with your heart operation and
01:56:16
hopefully we'll be back again to continue this conversation soon. >> Absolutely. Thank you so much.
01:56:20
Appreciate it. Thank you so much. Really good to meet you. >> Thank you so much. That was brilliant.
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