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I've never heard a story like this in my life. A story of drug trafficking, bribery, kidnapping, and even murder,
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which earned you the nickname of America's dirtiest cop. And I want to know everything. Okay, but let's just be
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clear. If you choose to have a conversation with me about this, you're going to hear things that you won't like.
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Jesus. Let me just say this. Being a New York cop was the greatest job in the world. But it's not built for somebody
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to come in and be the night and shining armor. You're working minimal wage. Civilians are against you and you're directly told not to make drug arrests.
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Why? Well, cuz they got a budget to manage. And the average amount of overtime for one crack arrest was 18
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hours. So that leads to the streets becoming unwieldy. So what happens is a guy like me who's entrepreneur spirit
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shows up and says, "There's a way to control this. I can't arrest him." So I tax them. And that escalated. Greed is
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powerful, bro. But what happens then? You become God. I was making more than the president of the United States by
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protecting one of the largest drug trafficking organizations in New York. But I was losing control and I became the face of New York City's corruption
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problem. People wanted me dead. And then in 1992, you were arrested and you admitted to hundreds of crimes. But what
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about your family at this point? You know, that was tough. They're really special people.
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Mike, we spoke to your parents. Do you want to see what they said? I'm Carol Dow and uh I'm Michael Dow's
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[Music] mother. This has always blown my mind a little bit. 53% of you that listen to the show regularly haven't yet subscribed to the show. So, could I ask
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you for a favor before we start? If you like the show and you like what we do here and you want to support us, the free simple way that you can do just
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power, me and my team, to make sure that this show is better for you every single week. We'll listen to your feedback.
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We'll find the guests that you want me to speak to, and we'll continue to do what we do. Thank you so
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much. Mike, when people do interviews with you, they often describe you as New York's dirtiest cop. No. And I watched
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that over and over again in your interviews. And I wondered as I watched people calling you New York's dirtiest cop how that makes you
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feel. Not good. Yeah. And that's a touchy subject and and and and but I accept it and I've turned it uh into something where I'm
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able to m maybe chaperon an audience because of it. But it's not nice to hear that. More importantly, it's not nice for your parents to hear something like that. And thank God they're still alive.
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But, you know, it's not the happy day when your mother says sees your name on the front page of the newspaper. I'll
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tell you that. And for nothing good, you know. And how many crimes did you commit while you were a New York cop? So, it
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may have been thousands because every time I did something that was inappropriate. So, you got to step back
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for a second. Every time a police officer puts on his badge and and swears that oath and takes the job on, he's
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basically taking a risk on everything he does that can end him up in jail. Everything. And that's really a very difficult position to be in. Everything you do legitimately can end you up being
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sanctioned or arrested. So I would suggest basically anything I did or any interaction I did could have been
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considered with some kind of criminal intent. And still on the top line, just painting the picture here, what are the
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before we get into the detail, what are the variety of crimes that you committed
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as a New York police officer? So, every time you take something from somebody, money, cash, drugs, um, personal property, let's say, it's basically a
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robbery basically because you have a gun on your hip and you're using a power, a position of power. So, you would start
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with robbery, extortion, burglary when you went into someone's home and came out with uh, a product. I mean, I've
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taken tapes from, you know, back in the day, you know, those VCR tapes, they were there was a lot of good stuff in
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some VCR tapes. I mean, we can get a little humorous here, but the reality was, you know, you know, some guy's porn collection might be missing. I mean, it
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just these are the these are the things that you ran into their cash, their gold coins, you know, there whatever was when
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someone's dead, it's really hard for them to complain about what's missing. So, and you know, it's ironic, it's stupid, and it's debauchery at the same
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time. So you you cross all the you cross all the lines of decorum when you do something like that. Did you steal
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someone's porn collection? Maybe. Really? It could have been. But the guy they were dead. They were dead. They were dead. They couldn't use it anymore. I mean they were smoking crack. Okay. So
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I'm in the 94th precinct in Brooklyn now which is Williamsburg where you say it was a lovely place and it was it was
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becoming lovely when we were they started opening up some studios. We got a call for dead on arrival. You know,
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someone was murdered. So, we we show up and the guy's sitting in his couch with a knife in his side. I mean, you walk
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into this home and there's a guy on his couch like this, sitting there with a hole in his side with the knife still in
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it. He's bled out. And the place looked like there was a party that didn't stop. So, while there, I'm sitting around waiting and waiting for the boss to show up and the
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squad to show up, the detective squad to show up. And I'm looking around, rumaging a little bit, see what see like
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looking for the evidence of the of the crime scene. And sure enough, I hit the button on the VCR and there's a porn.
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They've got the porn on [ __ ] TV. So I'm saying, okay, there he's dead. There's crack uh evidence of there was no crack there, by the way. It was all gone. No one leaves crack behind. The
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cigarette smokes were p, you know, the ashes were piled out of the out of the ashtrays and there's beer bottles everywhere. So it's July. It's 100
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degrees and this apartment has no air conditioning in it. So, what does any self-respecting 20some year old man want
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at this point? Not the porn per se, but the beer, right? So, I'm looking around, every beer bottle is empty, and right below the apartment is a bodega
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right below it. Like upstairs is the is the dead guy and downstairs is a bodega. So, we go downstairs and we tell the
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guy, "Listen, we're going to be upstairs for a couple hours." He hands us a six-ack of Coors Light. You can't make the story
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up. We walk in, me and my partner Tom, and in comes the detective. We each have a beer. We're sitting at [ __ ]
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waiting for the boss to show up. Boss walks in. She looks around. She goes, "I want every beer bottle in here printed." She says, "And in the
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refrigerator." Now, I just put the [ __ ] six-pack in the refrigerator when she walked
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in. So, I'm going, "Now, picture this. They know I'm corrupt, okay? But they can't prove it. I'm on what you would call secret probation, even though I'm not on probation. They're watching me
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like a hawk. Now, I got a detective who's looking at me like, "We just had a beer. The f our [ __ ] fingerprints are inside the refrigerator and he's
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scared." I'm not. I mean, I'm going to take a hit, I guess. Right. So, I go, "Sange?" She goes, she
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goes, "What?" "In that refrigerator, there's a six-ack of Coors Light and my fingerprints are on the bottles in the in in the
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refrigerator." She looks at me. She goes, "Of course it's you." She goes, "Of all the people in this [ __ ] police department, it would be your fingerprints inside the refrigerator on
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a cause light bottle at a homicide scene. And there's only four homicides in this precinct this year, and you've
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been on three of them. You've been at the scene of three of So I go, "Yeah, it doesn't look too good, does it?" So, she goes, "I'm going to go downstairs. I'm going to go to my car
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and I'm going to make a phone call. Whatever I got to do." I says, she said, "Get rid of that and don't do it again."
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Did you steal the porn collection? Yes. It was already in the car. It was already in the car. I already had it.
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I mean, that's all he had. A knife in his belly and a porn collection. You didn't steal the knife? No, I
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couldn't. There's evidence. But you put his porn collection in your car. Yeah. Wow. And you do originally trained to
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become an accountant and drop out because of a woman, right? And you wanted to follow her. So you end up
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joining the police academy in 1982, 21 years old, right? And when you joined the police academy, did you do it because you wanted to be a police officer and because you wanted to serve
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and defend? No, that's not why I joined. I joined because I wanted a job. Because
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you wanted a job. And so when you stood there and took that oath, right? Did you mean it? I you know, no. I mean, I guess
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I guess so. So, so the answer to So, if you say no, it mean that means that you have no concern or care. So, it was an
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immature yes. So, you take that oath, you don't really mean it. And I I'm embarrassed if I say I I want to be truthful because I don't I don't like to lie. I I felt pride when I said
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it. Is that So, I I felt full of pride when I said it. And as part of your training to become a police officer, you do some integrity training. Yes. some like ethics training to make sure that
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police officers are like straight and narrow and understand. So, one of the things that I would suggest on that statement or that that that whole uh
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genre is it it wasn't necessarily we weren't necessarily trained on integrity or or ethics. We were trained on this is what would happen to you
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if don't take $5 from a motorist or $50 from a motorist because that will lead to one you being arrested and being all over the news and then all the cops are going to hate you. Like it was never
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really explained to you as a student in the academy the depth of the lack of integrity and what you're actually affecting. Okay. like the fundamental issue if we don't trust law enforcement
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and the downstream consequences. Thanks for saying it that way. Yes. Because it it it destroys the very fabric of what
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people trust in law enforcement because when you need help, you got to call somebody and the person that shows up
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has to be trustworthy. Now, I would argue because I robbed money from drug dealers and even their drugs, you can
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still trust me, right? That's what I would argue because if you're not doing those things essentially Mhm. you're
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safe with me and I will give you the best police service that you ever asked for and probably go above and beyond to
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help you. There was some kind of comment made at the end of your training by an internal affairs academy instructor
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which basically said to be successful as a cop, don't follow these rules, the ethics rules that you were just given. So yes, so that wasn't the internal affairs officer that said that. That
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would be your academy instructor. Okay. Yeah. ironic. He said to me, "Us in the academy class, if you live by the rules that these guys espouse in internal affairs, you'll
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never make uh a successful cop. Just cover your ass." That would be his that was his words. Just cover your ass. What What do they mean by that? Always have a reason. Always have an excuse. Basically, you Yeah, you hit it on the
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head. Like, so bas and have if you have a partner, be on the same page. So, let's say something was handled inappropriately. Maybe there was some excessive force used, which I'm not fond
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of and nor am I in favor of, but there may be times where you might have given a guy an extra elbow. It happens. You
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know, you're mad, you spit in my face, I put the cuffs on you, I give you a shot. It h doesn't do you hit the door on the
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way in sometimes. So, as long as your partner and you have the story straight, you can pretty much without these
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cameras today get away with most things that are not unreasonable. And the police all
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kind of agree that they won't snitch on each other. That's general the general rule. And it's called I read this term
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the blue wall of silence. Yes. Right. So, let's just be clear. The first person that's going to snitch on you is going to be a cop. Okay. However, more chances than not, they try
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not to. And that's just the facts. Because what cop wants to go out on patrol knowing that if something goes down and it goes a little sideways from where it's supposed to go, let's say you
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and I were working together and you just told on me last week and now someone's pummeling you to death in the street. I
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have a chance to help you or I can call for backup and wait, you know. So, you don't want that relationship with me, right? I mean, we're trying to get home tonight. Yeah. So, it really puts people
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in a very precarious position because you need those other cops for your own personal survival. So, Correct. So, you
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don't want to be snitching on other cops. Yeah. It's, you know, I mean, it's really not built that position in this society is not built for somebody to
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come in and be the night and shining armor and say, "Listen, Officer Dav, that was not appropriate. I'm gonna have to report you right now. Before he goes
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to report me, I'm gonna either bludgeon him to death because now he's taking my livelihood away. He's taking the food
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off the table of my family. You don't look at it as like you're getting a guy in trouble. You look at you're taking a career, a livelihood, incarceration. I
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mean, these are the things that can happen. Like I said, the minute you put that badge on, and I didn't get to this, is the minute that the job and the is
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looking to take something from you. Like, think about that. Mechanic goes to work and they say, "Can you get six cars done today?" I'll try. You got six and there's a bonus for you at the
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end of the day. A cop goes to work and they're looking to screw him the whole time. Who's looking to screw him? The
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department and the civilians. I didn't like the way he handled me. They make a complaint. Your boss goes, "I got the
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people complaining. I'm going to have to give you a [ __ ] assignment or I'm going to have to change your assignment." I mean, the whole time someone's against
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you. They're trying to find some kind of [ __ ] in your arm or something you did wrong. Yeah. And it's really to cover their ass. Back to the beginning. It's a
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very, very difficult position. A fireman goes to work, you know what they do? They save lives. They put out fires.
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They eat a good meal. They have a great gym. No one's in there going They have rules in decorum, but no one's going,
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"We're looking to take you for this. We're looking to stripe you for that." The civilians aren't walking into a firehouse and going, "I didn't like the
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way that truck backed down and the siren blasted and hurt my ears." They're going, "Yay! They're going to save someone's life. A cop shows up on the
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scene. He's going to give me a ticket. He's going to arrest my husband. My husband beat me and he doesn't believe
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me." I mean, it's just it's such a it's such a grading position to be in. When we when we're thinking about the factors, the environmental factors that led you to make the decisions that you
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made, one of the big factors that I was looking into at the time was there was obviously this crack epidemic, but then
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it also seemed like the police at the time didn't actually want you to arrest people. Yes, that's correct. I saw some
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crazy stat which I'm sure you'll be able to recount for me, but in the in the sort of decade that you were a police officer, you didn't do that many
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arrests. No. How many? 43. You did what? 43 arrests. You did 43 arrests in how many years? Well, I mean, total total 10 years, but yeah. So, not all of that was
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patrolled, but yeah. So, it doesn't matter. I mean, I can make 43 arrests in a month. Okay. If I really wanted to. If you weren't corrupt at that time, how
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many arrests do you think you probably should have made in those 10 years based on the crimes that you observed?
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500. Okay. So, about 90% of the things you should have arrested someone for, you didn't.
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Okay. And why weren't you making more arrests? You couldn't keep the police on patrol
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if they were making arrests. They were clogging up the system. The system would get so jammed up. The average amount of
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overtime for one crack arrest was 18 hours. You would be paid for that. Paid time and a half. Okay. So then the
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department has to pay you more money if you do an arrest and then process the arrest and they all get processed through the correction system and they
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all get processed through the court system. I mean, you're talking 150,000 arrests a year in in Brooklyn alone.
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That's a lot of numbers if you just keep cranking at it. And everybody's getting 18 hours overtime per arrest. And who's paying for all these arrests at the end
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of the day? Well, the city the city's pay. So, the city don't want you to be arresting people because they got a budget to m manage. Were you ever
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directly told to stop arresting people? Yeah. How's this? You really didn't make
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a dent on it and now there's two men off patrol and then your next assignment was the
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desk. You're making arrests causing a problem. Yeah. The city's paying for it. There's less police available and the robberies, the the murders and the rapes in those communities were extremely
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high. They rather have them sell crack than people getting robbed and raped and murdered. Does that make sense? Of course it does. Yeah. So, it's all incentives. I think if you look at any system, you'll understand why people
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behave they do if you understand the incentive structure. And in your case, if you made more arrests of criminals,
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then the city would have both a bill because they had to pay cops overtime to take care of the admin work, but also they're going to have more cops off the street, which could also lead to more
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crime. More crime. Yes. So, you were incentivized not to arrest people. Correct. Okay. So, that So, what does
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that be? What does that lead to? That leads to the streets becoming unwieldy. You're like, there's no control. So, what happens is a guy like me who's entrepreneurial spirit shows up and says
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there's a way to control this. I tax these people or arrest them. One of the two. And I can't arrest them. So, I tax them. And let's talk about that first experience of you taxing the first
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person, which I think was in 1983. Your starting salary when you joined the police was $18,000 a year roughly. Yes.
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And you pulled someone over in 1983. Yes. And that's the first time That's the first time there was a tax levy.
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That was the first time you you committed a crime, I guess, as a police officer. No, but the first time that I committed an actual money crime, I would
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say. Yeah. How old were you at that point? In ' 83? 23. 24. Yeah. And that was basically uh we called it a Puerto
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Rican mystery back then. I know that I'm famous for saying that and people are uh listen that's that's what they called it. All right. Because the guy was from
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Puerto Rico and he had no paperwork, no license or anything like that. And he just bought the car. You pulled him
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over. Pulled them over. No plates. No plates. Right. You just came here from Puerto Rico. You got a stack of hundreds in your bag and I'm looking at him
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saying, "You know, you got like $2,000 worth of tickets and I'm supposed to take your car from you." I said, "But
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you know, I like lobster. Leave me enough money for a lobster lunch. this whole thing can go away. So, the kid was quick on his feet. He left a couple hundred bucks under my
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briefcase on the back seat. He got out and I said, "I don't want to ever see you again, you know, unless you got
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unless you got some more lobster lunch money later." Of course, I didn't say that. And of course, I left that scene
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with the money and I was very uncomfortable because it was the first time I actually solicited something like
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that. But it was sort of a it's almost like I won something. as a cop. One of the things we saw in movies back then is cops getting like sexual favors because they're cops. Yeah. Did that happen? I
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would say that was available and I've took it advant some advantage of it. But yeah, there was some.
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Yeah. Yeah, there was some. I mean I mean that that's like you know you're driving by in a police car and a girl
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says hello and you go you and you go [ __ ] her. I mean you know that is that is that a is that like a benefit of the job or is that you know your
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promiscuity? Did you ever do that while working? Yes. That's my biggest sin in the world. While working in the car?
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Yes. Wow. Not just in movies. That's the license of siren only went off once. Really? That was from a [ __ ] It wasn't from
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Yeah. The girl's ass hit the [ __ ] buzzer. I'm like the [ __ ] the big back. 3:00 in the morning. You hit the buzzer.
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I'm in the back of a courtyard of a ninestory building. Your boss, your sergeant around that time, did he know that you were doing things like this? Not then. No. No. But shortly
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thereafter, there would be a situation where my sergeant uh it was a murder scene. Dead kid, 20-year-old shot in the head and it was a marijuana
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spot. There's money, there's drugs, you know. I mean, listen, it's overwhelming when you'll come across these things
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that there's a dead body there and you're entrusted to handle all this stuff and you're broke.
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And so I took a little thin stack of hundreds and put it in my pocket. Turned out it was like 600 bucks. And as the
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crime scene was being processed in walks my sergeant, Sergeant James Otto, he says, "Is this it?" Like two, three
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pounds of marijuana, which is like this much marijuana. It's not a [ __ ] big pile of [ __ ] And uh I don't know, it
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was like I don't know $1,500 in cash stacked all over here. Is this it? I go, "Yeah." I go, "But but I felt like he was asking me too much." So, well, I did
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have this and I take out a thin stack of hundreds. And he goes, "Oh, anything else?" I go, "No, that's it." I said, "You know, I didn't want to take it full of blood." Later on that night, I run into
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him at a at a a choir practice they would call it. He went out bullshitting, having a couple beers. I said, "Set let
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me ask you a question. What if and I say and I I come across money and he what if
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I kept that 600?" He goes, "I was annoyed that you gave it to me." Like just picture the moment. You're 20some years old. You're broke. You know, you're coming to work. You know, you're
00:22:18
surviving. You're in survival mode. You're out having a couple of beers with your buddies and the your boss who's got
00:22:24
20 years on the job at this point. So, he's actually could retire if he wanted to. and he says to you, "If I don't see
00:22:31
it, it's yours." He says, "But let me know so you can throw me something later on." It was like the whole vision of
00:22:38
this thing changed at that moment. He's basically saying, "If you get there, it's
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yours. Take what you can before I get there because I don't want to witness it because I don't want to have to witness
00:22:49
it." Was he taking money? Well, he wouldn't. He'd say no, but clearly he was indicating that it's good. just don't let me see it. When you reflect on that scene that you arrived at, you said
00:23:01
there was a 20-year-old man that was dead. Yeah. Did Did seeing those scenes ever bother you? Initially, my first my
00:23:10
first DOA was my first day. Guy jumped off a building and landed on his head. Uh that bothered me because the family showed up. It was horrific. And I
00:23:21
got to hold the family back and don't touch him because he could be a murder. We don't know. We don't know why he's dead. It's a crime scene
00:23:28
essentially. I began to see people shot, stabbed. You have a total disconnect like really quickly. The first shooting I was at was doing a midnight shift and and the guys were doing a burglary of a
00:23:41
car. They were stealing tires and tire irons. And I said, "Hey, we should stop these guys." And my buddy S's like,
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"Nah." My partner, nah, let him go. It's late. Someone flags us down. Hey, this guy's trying to steal steal tires off a car. So now I said, "Look, we got civilians complaining about the same
00:23:59
people that we should have just tossed." Turn around, go back about two or three blocks. Guy's dead in the
00:24:06
street and I see a tire iron. So I said to the people, "Was there were they carrying a jack or a tire iron?" And they go, "Yeah." And they point over to the street where the the tire iron was
00:24:18
for taking the wheels off off a car. this guy could have shot us, you know, like so like like he's dead. It could
00:24:26
have been us or if we did toss this guy, he could not be dead. So when you come that close to death itself, your your survival instincts
00:24:38
give you an ability to disconnect fairly quickly from those types of scenes. Did you ever show up to a scene where you
00:24:44
saw someone dead or dying and feel sad? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A couple times. But more
00:24:56
important, one one one that strikes me a lot. I was I was talking to the guy who was going out. I know he's going to die. You know, it was just uh he was stabbed
00:25:03
in the stomach and uh he's looking at me and he goes, "I'm getting cold." I go, "Yeah, it's going to be okay." He says, "I'm getting cold officer." I sat out. Are you going to be okay? We're going to get you to the
00:25:14
hospital. You know, the ambulance showed up like five minutes later and he was barely conscious when he got in the ambulance and he wasn't going to make it
00:25:20
and he he died. And it was sad because I couldn't do anything for him. I'm like, you saw a lot of stuff. Why did that
00:25:26
affect you? I felt bad because I was talking to him knowing he's going to die. Like, and one other time I felt really bad. Uh some guy who was I guess he was
00:25:39
he was getting laid. young guy, big, heavy set, strong, powerful black guy. He's his wife is like I looked at her, she goes, I'm like, I knew I could tell
00:25:50
it was a sexual thing. They had sex and the [ __ ] guy was like 35 years old and he he was either dead or dying. He
00:26:01
had a heart attack and uh I wanted to give him CPR, but it would have been my first actual CPR case, you know, and the two cops I was working with go, "No, don't
00:26:12
worry about it. Go get the ambulance. Don't worry about it." Yeah. Yeah. He's going to be okay. Don't worry about it.
00:26:18
Go get the ambulance. I'm like, "Shouldn't we do CPR?" "No, no, no. You go outside." I was the kid. I was the
00:26:29
rookie and these two oldtimes were like, "Don't worry about it. It's going to be all right. Go outside and and direct the
00:26:35
ambulance in." Like two minutes later, the ambulance showed up. They started CPR on the guy and he died. To not
00:26:41
render aid when you think you can make a difference, that hurts. Why did they tell you not to render aid, Tim? I I
00:26:47
don't know. I don't know why. They didn't tell me why, you know, and it was very disheartening because I think I
00:26:53
could have helped save the guy, but what am I going to do? Wrestle with these guys? And, you know, they got go get the they're in charge. Senior cop on the
00:26:58
scene is in charge. At some point you started actually dealing drugs. Yeah. How did you start getting into drugs? When did when was that Eureka moment that you realized that you could sell
00:27:10
drugs? My partner at the time took some home out of the blue and uh he came back
00:27:17
and handed me a couple hundred dollars one day. I said, "What's that for?" He goes, "That [ __ ] we've been throwing out is cocaine. We ain't throwing it out no
00:27:23
more. I got somebody that wants it." So he's bringing me cash. I was like, "Okay, well, this ain't that bad." I
00:27:28
mean, for me, it was like, I didn't see it. I didn't do it, so I was okay with it. And then it becomes like anything else, it softens the blow for the next
00:27:38
step. And eventually, I would lead to me just whatever dope I found, I would take
00:27:45
and and if I couldn't find it, I' I'd see one of the drug dealers and say, "Give me something or or or give me
00:27:50
something for discount." I mean, that that's it becomes you become a a market maker at that point. Did you stop buying
00:27:55
it to sell it from these drug dealers? At some points I started buying it. Yeah. How bad did it get with the drug
00:28:01
dealing when you were a cop? Because it almost sounds like you've at this point given up being a cop enforcing the law.
00:28:06
So here's it's a dichotomy, right? Because I put the uniform on. I go to work and if you are not in the drug
00:28:12
business, you're going to get a good police officer in my from my perspective. You may never say that. You may never agree
00:28:18
with it. But if you were had a car accident and you needed a police officer to take the report, bring you to a
00:28:24
hospital. I would do all the arrangements, do whatever best I could. If you had gotten robbed, I would do the report. I'd take you to a hospital if
00:28:30
you were injured, you know, whatever it need. I I mean, I responded like a proper police officer. But if you were in the drug business, you were
00:28:36
mine. You were mine. Simple. I mean, how else can I say it? What do you mean by you were mine? You were mine. I owned you. In what
00:28:48
regard? In every regard. Whatever I wanted. You were mine. You could take their drugs. Whatever I wanted. Your car if I wanted it. Did you ever take someone's car? I didn't have to. A guy
00:28:59
gave me one. What else? Whatever. Coats, jackets, gold, whatever. Chains. What was your biggest heist as a police officer? I
00:29:11
would They weren't that large. I'd say 40 to 50,000 one at one time. which back then was good money. You know, you're talking about two years salary, you know. Yeah. If you're on a like 20
00:29:22
$30,000, whatever is your salary, getting 40,000 is Yeah. I doubled my salary. Triple my salary. Yeah. That
00:29:28
year. Things like that come along, you know? So, so there was opportunities. So, you would call that a score, right?
00:29:34
Opposed to an ongoing thing. Mh. Because like boom, it's there. It's it's a one hit and wonder and it's over. Every job in East New York, nine out of 10 was
00:29:46
involved with drugs. You're exposed to it. It's your choice on how you deal with it. You're the boss. You are the
00:29:53
boss. You show up, you're the boss. Were your colleagues around you doing the same? The accurate answer is some
00:30:03
were this. The best description is you would never know. You would never know. I might because I know what's going on. But if you were a cop that was not
00:30:14
involved, you would never know. So the good cops wouldn't know that it was happening. You wouldn't know because I'm
00:30:21
not going to tell you. Now, if you happen to say something to me that you, hey, wait a minute, something went down
00:30:27
there, I'd say, and what do you want to do about it? You want in? I'll tell you a funny
00:30:33
story. Ready? We go to the scene. I don't want to describe it because it's lengthy. Long story short, the cops show
00:30:39
up. We're the cops. But the cops show up behind us and they go, "Oh, that's Dow and his partner. Leave them alone." And
00:30:46
they turn around and they walk away. So the officers knew just just I don't want
00:30:51
to see what they're doing because they're not I'm culpable or responsible for what they're doing. And that's how
00:30:56
it became. And what were you doing at that scene? Cocaine and heroin. My partner wanted
00:31:03
the guns. I said, "What are you going to do with the guns? This money. This This is money. That's a gun." And and and
00:31:08
people were in debt. So the guns may be connected to the crime. So just when you show up at a scene like that, how do you
00:31:14
and you arrive there and there's guns, there's money, there's drugs. How do you get the money and the drugs without
00:31:21
other officers seeing you? That's funny. Like how'd you get it out? Do you put it in the back of the police car? So one
00:31:27
time I put it in a laundry bag, which was loaded up with heroin and cocaine and I don't know whatever else was in there. And I happened to be lucky. There
00:31:38
was a a row of garbage pales along this person's entrance way. As the sergeant was walking up the stairway to
00:31:45
investigate the scene with us to to secure it and make sure everyone's doing what they're supposed to do. I take this
00:31:50
bag and I go like this and I put it in the garbage pail. He comes up to me. I go, "SGE, there's a guy dead in the
00:31:57
doorway. They shot him through the through the eyehole." I said, "There's another guy shot upstairs and there's a
00:32:03
bunch of guns and stuff up there." I go, "But there's so many cops here. I'm going to go 98." which means I'm going
00:32:08
to go back on patrol. He goes, "Good." Like, "Good idea." I'm like, "Good. We agree." So
00:32:15
that gets me away from the scene. So now he goes up the stairs. I go back into the garbage pail, pick up the the green
00:32:21
laundry bag, and put it in my car, and I leave. So now I got to go to a drug dealer, get rid of it, and then you get loads of cash eventually. Yes. And what
00:32:28
do you do with the cash? In that specific case, I drove right to my my drug dealing friend's place who had an
00:32:34
auto body auto sound city. They put the sound into into cars. I went right to his shop. I dropped off some dope with
00:32:40
him and he called his buddy that sold the heroin in the area and so on and so forth and that recycles back into money.
00:32:46
Were you ever scared? No. No. Should you have been? I I should have been more cautious. Did you ever think you were going to get caught? You know, it was in the back of my mind
00:32:59
for probably five years. Just never left. And thus, thus you constantly are um your anxiety levels up. You know, your body starts to go numb. Uh and you
00:33:13
wonder what's wrong with me? What's wrong with you? You're living like three different lives. You know, you have a wife, you have a girlfriend, you have
00:33:19
drugs, you you're a cop, you're selling drugs, you're shaking people down. Everything's just fine. No, it's
00:33:25
not it's never good. You have a wife and a girlfriend? Yeah, most most of the time. And you have kids at that time? One.
00:33:36
And did anybody know what you were doing at home? I would leave that up to her. But the mink coats and the new cars and the trips to around the world, you don't do them on a cop salary. But you never
00:33:49
said it. She knew enough. And did she ever give you advice about what you were doing? Stop. That's what she said. Stop. I don't need this. I'd
00:33:59
rather have you. Imagine that. That's a nice feeling in a way, right? I'd rather you sleep under a bridge. That's what she said. Yeah. Your ex-wife. Yeah. And why didn't you stop?
00:34:13
Can't you can't you can't you can't stop that. It's not that easy to stop that. I
00:34:19
I read the story that someone a lieutenant had put a complaint against you for a trivial matter and you
00:34:26
retaliated by reporting them uh to internal affairs for being in a drug house and then this sort of led to a situation where you received death threats over the phone from that lieutenant. Yeah. I'm working in Coney
00:34:38
Island. I was sent to Coney Island to get away from East New York because they knew I was hot. I mean, the story is so
00:34:44
big and deep, it's just crazy. His bottom line with him was I end up in a dispute with him somehow. He's a cop.
00:34:50
Cop. Yeah. He had a Mercedes-Benz 3 380 or something. Mercedes-Benz, whatever it was. His license plate on the back of
00:34:56
his car said B Scott. Less than a month later, about three weeks later, I'm out in Long Island and there's the car. There's only
00:35:07
one B Scott, right? In New York plate. And I pulled over and I said to my wife at the time, I said, "Get a good look at this guy." And he went up into a crack house. It was only one crack house in
00:35:19
the in the whole neighborhood. And that was it. He went up into it and then he came out. I said, "Well, I left. I went home and I spoke to my neighbor who was
00:35:26
my wife's uncle who was a detective in the 102 squad with 28 years on the job at the time." I said, "Listen, I want to
00:35:32
talk to you." He goes, "What's up?" I told him the story, the scenario. And he goes, "Listen, Mike. anything but drugs,
00:35:40
you got to turn them in. It was hard for me to do this because now I'm turning on a guy that I know was involved in drugs
00:35:47
and I know what I had done previously. So I call internal. They were at my house in 45 minutes. Like hello. I mean
00:35:55
my house. I live 45 minutes from them. They're at my house in 45 minutes. They do an interview with me. Long story
00:36:02
short, they put a line up in front of me. I picked the guy out. So later on, within a week or so, I'm getting phone calls to my house at 2:30 in the morning. But it's every day. It's going
00:36:13
on every day for about a month's length of time. So finally, I go, "What do you want, bro? Enough is enough. I'm [ __ ] your wife. Every time you go to work,
00:36:25
I'm [ __ ] her." Oh. Oh, really? Yeah. She gets off the train in Long Island Railroad and I pick her up. I bring her
00:36:32
home and I [ __ ] her. Oh, okay. Thank you very much. I said, "Well, why don't you come by?" And we'll straighten it out
00:36:37
right here, you and me. He goes, "Why did I put a bullet in your [ __ ] head while you're standing there in front of the window?"
00:36:45
So, he could see you? I don't know. Did you plot to kill him? No. Why would I plot to kill this guy? Well, because it sounds like he wants to kill you. Well, that's different now. But I But I did
00:36:57
but I didn't cuz I didn't know who it was. It took me years to figure out who it was. But in the interim, I ran into him again. I essentially arrested him
00:37:08
without arresting him. I gave him summones, which is an arrest in a way. And he was so pissed off. He made a
00:37:14
complaint against me. And you know, but he was suspended. Oh, so he was a civilian when you arrest when you He was suspended. He was officer on suspension. Okay. And he was
00:37:26
suspended for being the gun in a drug case in Harlem. He was the collector in Harlem for a drug organization. It turns out what's a collector? He was the strong man. So if you owed money to a
00:37:38
drug organization, he went out and collected it. Oh, okay. So he was he was an off he was a police officer who had a
00:37:44
job collecting money for a drug organization in Harlem. You met a guy called Baron Perez. Yes. Who's Baron
00:37:50
Perez? Baron Perez is the guy who owns Auto Sound City at the time. He was what you call a middleman in any deal in
00:37:56
Brooklyn. So he ran a car shop which was a front for a cocaine. He was not a front. He had been a legitimate
00:38:02
business. But in his business would be all the dealers in Brooklyn would come in. And did you is that where you met
00:38:09
Laac Compenia? Yes. What is LaMenia? La company was a Dominican drug organization that
00:38:16
ran small nickel and dime spots throughout the city. Lots of them. Like dozens of them. And they were basically based out of bodeas. And you were a cop at the time when you met them? Yes. And
00:38:27
they're one of the most powerful drug organizations in New York City at the time. At the time. Yes. But they were street level mostly. They had their own
00:38:35
they had their own organizational structure, but they they dealt with all the street level bodeas. And at the time
00:38:42
you're getting paid $600 a week as a cop. No, every two weeks. Every two weeks as a cop. So you're making $300 a
00:38:48
week as a cop, right? And this drug gang offer you how much money to protect? didn't offer me anything. I told them if they want the protection, it was 8,000 a week. And what did they say when you
00:38:59
said that? We'll pay it. So, they paid you $8,000 a week, the drug gang, for the first week, and then they were
00:39:06
shorted me $700. What does shorted mean? Short. They they were short 700. Okay. So, they paid me $7,300 instead of $8,000. So, I told them, I need the rest of the
00:39:17
money. The deal is a deal. And they said, you know, we're not paying you. We're done. So then I threatened them
00:39:24
and I shut their business down. I parked police cars in front of their business for a week and they put a
00:39:31
hit on me. What does it mean when someone puts a hit on you as a police officer? What does that mean? They
00:39:36
suggest to anybody that is willing to shoot and kill this cop. Uh they'll pay them. And how do you find out they that
00:39:43
this drug gang has put a hit on you? Well, because Baron Perez knows everybody in the city in the drug business because he does their cars. He
00:39:50
said there's a hit on you. He said, "By the company." I said, "Okay." I went out that same day. I saw
00:39:57
his car. I never met the guy in my life, but I knew his car. The company, the boss. I pulled him over. He didn't know
00:40:04
who I was. I told him my license registration. I just threw the papers back in his lap. I said, "You going to
00:40:10
put a hit on me?" He turned as wide as that pen because now I'm standing over him and he's sitting down a little tiny
00:40:16
Renault looking up at me. I said, "If you want to put a hit on me, why don't we we'll clear it up right here. I'll
00:40:22
let you get out of the car. We'll do 10 pace walk off. You turn around, I'll turn around and we'll shoot it out." Did
00:40:27
you mean that? I meant it. Every word of it. You don't say something you don't mean when you talk about guns and weapons. What if he said yes? It was on.
00:40:34
I wasn't going to not I was going to not let him. Were you not scared? I I I was
00:40:39
crazy. I don't know. It I didn't think of fear. I always thought I was I was going to win. What did he say? No, no,
00:40:47
no, no. Oh, I said well you take the hit off. My pager went off 20 minutes later and he said the hit's off. I don't want
00:40:53
to do any more business with you. There was a $700. Please leave us alone. So you got your $700 in the end. Yeah. And
00:40:59
that was the end of your relationship with with them with Laminia. Correct. Um at some point after that you met a guy called Adam Diaz. Correct. Who is a much
00:41:06
bigger Dominican drug dealer. Correct. Adam was you know two three levels above them. You know he was like the guy that
00:41:12
gets the 1500 kilos and distributes it out. And he's making a million dollars a week and he's selling what$50 million a
00:41:18
year in cocaine. Correct. Yeah. How did you come to meet him and what was the arrangement? So Baron the same way I met
00:41:23
the company through that car shop. Yes. Correct. Then we had a nice sit down. Him and I. We had a discussion. I said
00:41:29
if you want to talk to me, you bring $24,000 in cash. I don't know why I didn't say 25.
00:41:36
So he agrees he wants to talk to you. Yeah. And what does he say? He agrees to the meeting. We sit down and I I explain
00:41:42
to him what I can do. Uh, what can you do? Nothing really, but I make it up. What did you say? I said, "I can surveil
00:41:48
your your buildings and and your locations and uh if I know of any impending raids, I could give you a
00:41:55
heads up." I said, "But one thing I did say to him, and I'll say it to the camera, if anybody gets hurt, I'm giving
00:42:01
myself and you up." I said, "Because that's not what this is about." We agreed to with the terms. I'll do what I
00:42:07
can for you. I said, "I can't promise you anything, but I will do what I will do for you is the best that I can." So,
00:42:13
I mean, Diaz started paying me 8,000 a week. Listen, I'm now making 8,000 a week splitting it with my partner who
00:42:18
didn't deserve any of it, but whatever. And uh, you know, it was more than the president of the United States at the
00:42:24
time. I mean, the the like that's a pretty powerful feeling for a civil servant cop. So, you couldn't really do
00:42:30
anything for him? Very little. You could do very little for him, but you promised him a lot. Yes. And he and I and I
00:42:36
actually performed for him. So, he he originally paid you $24,000 for the conversation. just for the conversation.
00:42:42
Correct. And then he paid you $8,000 a week. Yes. Wow. And there was a particular time where you did actually save him some money more than once. Yes. I probably was involved with him at this
00:42:53
point for about three or four weeks. I was able to pick off a pending raid that I didn't know they were going into his
00:42:59
store, but I knew there was a raid going to happen. So I walked into the store, picked up two Heinekens, walked up to
00:43:06
the counter, opened up the Heinekens, and told the guy behind I didn't know the guy behind the counter. I go, "Shut it down." I shut it down. He looks at
00:43:14
me. I go, "Shut it down." He don't know me. I don't know him, but he knows. I walked outside and I say within an hour and a half, they were hit with a team of
00:43:25
30, 40 narcotics detectives, and I don't think they found a gram assault in the place. And there
00:43:31
was another occasion where you saved Adam Diaz. Well, that's when they got the the the robbery with uh with Ko and
00:43:38
uh Franklin So Franklin and Ko were the local bandits. They robbed all the drug dealers because they were just straight
00:43:44
up killers. They didn't care. And they went to his spot and they're not going to kill you if they don't have to if you give up the [ __ ] So the kid walked him
00:43:51
upstairs, uh Elvis was his name, walked him upstairs to the apartment with all the drugs and all the money in it. And
00:43:56
they gave as much as they could up and someone called 911 and I hit mark one right down there
00:44:02
and I pulled that was the first car on the scene. I jumped out and Elvis goes, "Is Elvis is telling me? Yeah, they just
00:44:07
robbed us." So I I shut it down. We're on the scene. No further. I think it's a 90 x-ray, which means it's unfounded. So that would stop the police approaching the location. Basically, I have the
00:44:20
scene closed down. There's a guy upstairs. The cops are upstairs taking [ __ ] out like cash and drugs. The
00:44:26
thieves couldn't get it all. There was just too much. I What are you guys doing? This is crazy how this happens.
00:44:32
They go, we found I go, "Listen, do you have a do you have a search warrant to go in that house?" the young cop and I'm
00:44:38
seeing your guy at the scene. They go, "No." I go, "So what are you doing? You can't just go in there and take the [ __ ] out." Technically, you can't, but you
00:44:45
can because it's an exigent circumstance. You're allowed. So, they got bags of cocaine and money. So, I got
00:44:51
the cops to put the cocaine and the money back in the [ __ ] house. Don't ask me how, but they did it. A quick
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apply. One of your friends when you were a cop was called officer Venibal and he
00:45:56
was shot in the head by associates at La Compania. Um, and you were the first cop to arrive on the scene of Officer
00:46:02
Venable who later died in the hospital. Correct. And you said that you had a lot of guilt over it. Yes. Well, because
00:46:09
it's just the whole thing. I was involved in drugs in East New York and I was involved in protecting drug
00:46:15
organizations and now a cop that that I didn't know was killed. And uh that doesn't matter. They didn't know him because he's a cop. You know, that's you know, it's not acceptable. Uh it just
00:46:27
the fact that a cop was killed is not acceptable. And now the guilt that I lived with was that I was protecting
00:46:34
people that may have either dealt with those people or been associated with those people. He killed a cop, but they
00:46:40
killed a cop. And that's, you know, it everything's What does Tyson say? Everything's it's all good until someone punches you in the [ __ ] nose. Well, that's like getting punched in the nose. Like like what am I really
00:46:52
doing? It was hard to swallow. I mean, and I don't I don't think I don't think it there's no excuse. What's What's the
00:47:00
answer to that? It's not behavior that or it's first of all, in East New York, the
00:47:08
cops are the greatest in the [ __ ] world. Okay? They dealt with the worst scenarios that mankind can present.
00:47:16
And at that point, no cop had ever been killed in East New York. Someone had been shot, someone had been injured, but no onduty police officer had been killed
00:47:27
ever in East New York to that day. It's almost like I was connected to it. And uh so it was tough. It was tough on me
00:47:34
as a human being, never mind as a cop that was doing wrong. I mean, we allowed them to stay in business even though there was little you could do. The fact that you knew
00:47:46
what they were doing and the fact that you parttook in some of the spoils of it, you feel that you're directly
00:47:52
connected and responsible. When you say you feel bad, what how did that manifest like literally and specifically? Well, I
00:48:03
would say that that's when I really took that turn into drugs and alcohol more deeply. And that's when I ended up probably three three to six months later I ended up in a rehab. About six months
00:48:15
later I ended up in rehab. Were you depressed? What a cop does, what I did was I would
00:48:21
go in my bathroom, close the door, and read the paper and cry. Now, I don't deserve any sympathy for that. It's just it was my way of letting go of all the guilt I was living
00:48:32
with throughout uh my career as a cop. You you go in your bathroom, read the newspaper, and cry. Yeah. Yeah, just because it was like a it was a way to
00:48:44
release all the builtup I don't know what the proper word is for this at this point. Stress, anxiety, guilt.
00:48:52
Um because I was I knew my internal strife about what I was doing was wrong. I was not able to publicly grieve. Who am I? I'm really feeling bad right now.
00:49:03
What do I do? Um you know, I I robbed drug dealers and I sold some cocaine and now there's a cop dead as a result of
00:49:08
cocaine. Who do I tell that to? It's my own prison. At this time, you were on drugs as well. You were taking alcohol and drugs at
00:49:19
this point. Yeah. Also, you were losing your marriage, correct? I So, I want to be accurate on
00:49:27
the reason I went. Even in spite of losing my marriage and my kids and my house, it wasn't the driving force. The
00:49:35
driving force was I was going to lose my job. That was the driving force. At this point, I didn't want to lose the job. I'd rather leave the job
00:49:47
on my own terms than lose the job. Who did you become? I became the direct result of poor decisions and the environment that I was in, which I could see looking back at the time. I became
00:50:01
whatever was in the environment. I became part of the environment. I I I was no different than the people that
00:50:06
were selling crack cocaine or robbing people robbing drug dealers because they all did each other that way. So, a lot
00:50:14
of people say, "Well, that's the environment they grew up in." You know what? I can see that. So, I can relate
00:50:19
to that. You know, it doesn't excuse the behavior. We all know that. There's no excuse for the behavior. But I became the environment I was living in. If I'd
00:50:26
asked your wife at the time, what's Mike like as a as a human? What would she have said to me at that point when she probably would have said he's a lost soul and an
00:50:39
[ __ ] I wasn't a nice You become you become God. Like you get the God complex. Like you feel
00:50:51
indestructible, but you but you see yourself declining. Like it's the weirdest thing in the world. You know
00:50:57
you're going down a rabbit hole, but the whole time you have this false armor on. What's the rabbit hole
00:51:04
you were going down? Drugs, alcohol, women, violence. You know, vi violence is coming. You know, I mean, you're become you you're turning
00:51:15
into a violent potential killing machine. I was going to become the exact thing that you would have said you don't belong in the street ever in your life again.
00:51:25
And you went to rehab. And when you're coming out of rehab, your intent is to straighten up your life. When I came
00:51:31
home, you know, it was it was it was an eye openener because I thought, great, I'm going to
00:51:38
get a fresh start. It turned out that when you become a straight lace guy, when you've
00:51:45
been known to be corrupt, the process of getting to become a police officer in full respect
00:51:52
is very, very difficult. maybe never h it may never happen. So in my case, because I tried to do the right thing and I'm not trying to I'm not trying to to shift responsibility because it's
00:52:04
always your own responsibility because I was trying to do the right thing. Cops got nervous because this isn't the guy
00:52:10
we heard about. So that means he's here to set us up. So when you came back from rehab, they thought you were working as
00:52:17
an informant. Correct. Yes. Very well played. Yes. That's what they thought that I was now working for the man. And
00:52:23
I was here there to get them. And what did that mean in terms of how they treated you? So they would be they would
00:52:29
shun me, not want to work with me, not want to partner with me, not want to back me up, not invite me to any social
00:52:35
gatherings. So I was basically an outcast now. I went from being the guy that ran [ __ ] to an outcast. And what
00:52:40
did that mean for you as a cop? Well, it meant that you isolated. Yeah. And that
00:52:45
you had no camaraderie. you didn't have the the reason that you enjoyed being a cops because you had brotherhood, camaraderie, safety, protection, like
00:52:53
any organization that you belong to, you know, and I basically didn't have that any anymore. And um that affected me in
00:53:00
my decision-m going forward from there. So, I just couldn't stay stopped. It's like being an alcoholic. You can stop,
00:53:06
but you got to stay stopped. You were How long were you in rehab for? Two years. You were in rehab for two years.
00:53:13
Yeah. not locked away in rehab, but on what they call modified assignment for two years. Okay. And you you tried to
00:53:20
resign slashret retire from the police on disability at one point. Well, I was hoping that they would offer it, right?
00:53:25
Yeah. Messages were being dropped. This guy's no good and he's they're going to arrest him soon if if if he continues
00:53:31
on. You know, the words to me were, "You're going out one way or the other, and it's not through disability. You're
00:53:36
either getting arrested or fired." Someone looking at the story would probably go, "Why didn't you, if you
00:53:41
knew that they were on to you? If you knew that they were investigating you, following you for months and months and months, why didn't you just stop?" You
00:53:47
know, when the kid goes into the barn and there's a pile of hay and [ __ ] and manure and someone tells him there's a diamond ring in the middle of that pile
00:53:59
of [ __ ] and the kid gets a shovel and he starts shoveling looking for that diamond ring. That's how I That's who I
00:54:05
am. I'm that guy looking for that little diamond in that pile of [ __ ] I'm an optimist. You thought it'd all be okay.
00:54:13
Listen, I was in prison for well, I was sentenced to 14 years, which by the way was a pretty fair sentence overall, I
00:54:21
guess. And uh every day in prison, I thought the next day I might go home. And I did that
00:54:27
for 12 and a half years. Like that's how that's how powerful the mind is. I was born in '92. And in '92, that's quite a significant year for you because this is the year you were arrested, correct?
00:54:39
Yeah. What happened that day? Take me into that day when you were arrested by the police department. So, it's 92, the
00:54:46
day after Rodney King riots, May 4th, May 5th. I had just made a deal with Kenny Urel, my ex-artner, who was in a
00:54:53
cocaine business with him, his wife, and his friends at the bowling alley. Kenny Urel kept calling me up for for drugs
00:55:00
because the price had doubled. and he knew that if anyone could get it, I could. And I did. So, I got him a couple
00:55:06
packages of cocaine, let's say three or four. In the meantime, his phones were tapped because he was the target of an
00:55:12
investigation on Long Island. The following day, I'm driving around and my our radio's extremely quiet. No one's c 94's quiet anyway, the Williamsburg area, but really quiet for the last two,
00:55:25
three days. And I'm getting a little suspicious. I just pick drop a package off with Kenny. I pull up to the station
00:55:31
house and I see a car there that looks strange and I see two guys in the front seat. I walk into the station house, my
00:55:36
partner, and I the desk officer, he points, he says, "The captain wants to see you." In walks these two guys that
00:55:43
were in the car that were out in front of the precinct with their badges out, "Lieutenant so and so, internal affairs.
00:55:48
We're taking you for a drug test." And sure enough, uh, went downstairs, got changed. I couldn't even
00:55:55
get changed. I couldn't get my clothes off. They were so close to me. I couldn't bend my knee. It was like right up my ass. I'm like, "Excuse me, guys."
00:56:01
I said, "Am I under arrest?" They go, "No, no, no. Are you sure? Because you're awfully close here." Anyway, they
00:56:07
put me in the car. I get in the back of the car. I said, "I got to smoke." I got cocaine in my pocket now because it's in my clothes. I got I couldn't take it out
00:56:14
and leave it in my locker with them standing there. I go, "You guys, can you open a window?" I'm smoking a cigarette like I'm chain smoking. Yeah, it's okay.
00:56:21
We'll be all right. Are you sure you guys going to choke out? No, no, don't worry about it. I'm trying to get the cocaine. Throw it out the window.
00:56:26
Anyway, they pull up to one leftrack city and there's probably 60 cops, sergeants, lieutenants, captains, inspectors, all of them lined up with their brass on all in uniform. Like,
00:56:37
what the [ __ ] is this for a drug test? Little strange. I get out of the car. I
00:56:43
go, I can just I can't dump it here. They're here. They're they're I can't even dump the coke. So, I get upstairs
00:56:49
to uh 16th floor and there's the lieutenant who's been waiting for me for years. He goes, "Dow, how are I go,
00:56:55
"Good, sir. How are you?" He goes, "Good." He hands me the cup to go take a piss. I hit just on a bump and and a
00:57:01
[ __ ] and a vodka. So, I knew I was hit. I turn around and walks my mother's cousin from Suffach County Police
00:57:07
Department says, "Uh, Mr. Dow, you're under arrest for conspiracy to distribute narcotics." So, did you think
00:57:13
you were going to jail for the rest of your life at that point? I didn't think I didn't even think a week. I didn't think a day. I think I'm going to make
00:57:20
bail. I'm going to beat the charge. That's how I'm thinking. How did it feel when you got arrested?
00:57:28
It was the biggest moment of relief. You know, you asked about u life changing, you know,
00:57:35
um lowest points. This was the best feeling in the world. Almost like almost like I was like, "Finally, it's over. It's finally over. I can go on with my
00:57:47
life somehow." I didn't know it would take almost 15 years. Well, even more when you think about probation and a lot of other [ __ ] You were relieved. When I was going to work every
00:58:00
day, I was going to work with anxiety and fear. I no longer had to have that fear.
00:58:05
It was gone. Of course, I didn't know what I would be facing. I figured this will work out. Like, that's how I
00:58:12
thought. You know, when you say you're going to work with anxiety and fear earlier on, you said you weren't scared of being arrested. I wasn't scared of
00:58:19
being arrested. I was afraid of ruining my life, okay? And living a double life,
00:58:25
you know, I'm lying to my wife. I'm lying to my family. I'm lying to the department. I'm lying to myself. I'm lying to my young child, two children at
00:58:32
this point. You know, everything's a lie. So, this anxiety and fear in that, the fear of arrest really never entered my mind. It's funny when you describe being arrested and you you reference it
00:58:43
almost like it was your moment of freedom. I still do today. Yeah, it was the best
00:58:49
thing that ever happened to me. If I could capsulize, put that in a bottle, the peace I had at that moment, I could probably live in that peace my
00:59:01
entire life and wish for that peace. The peace that comes over you when that pressure comes off your life because I
00:59:07
no longer have to live a lie. Obviously, most people can't relate um because they've never been in such a situation
00:59:13
where they've been like arrested. Um, but I think to some degree people can relate with the feeling of living a life
00:59:20
that's like inauthentic to them and then something happening which forces them to course correct. Yeah. I mean some people
00:59:27
kill themselves. Other people overcome it and become the better version of themselves. Either they
00:59:32
make lemonade out of the lemons or they go on to become ruinous. So, and I told you I'm looking for that diamond in that pile of [ __ ] So to me it was freedom.
00:59:44
How old's your child now? Your son? I have two. My oldest son is uh he'll be turning 40 and uh my younger son is
00:59:52
33 or four. So what advice based on your experience in that moment would you give to your kids about living an authentic
01:00:01
life and lying? So it's and you'll know this from life itself. It's easier to tell the truth in the end than it is to lie because you
01:00:12
have to remember the lies every day and live with the pressure of being uncovered. So accept the hard knocks
01:00:20
that come along with living honestly and um you'll you'll turn out to be a better
01:00:25
better person. So so part of my lesson is if you don't have any bumps in the road of life, you really don't know that much about life, right? You don't have you have to learn how to overcome adversity.
01:00:39
So go ahead, live a good life. Do the best you can. And if there comes a point where you want to, let's say, experiment with something or or take risks, just
01:00:49
accept the consequences. If you're going to stick up a bank, there's going to be consequences maybe. And if there isn't
01:00:57
any consequences, it's going to haunt you. There will eventually be a consequence. There's always a consequence. Everything has a cost. I
01:01:03
think about that just in day-to-day interactions that it's like it's easier to have the difficult conversation now
01:01:10
versus avoiding it and then it becomes an even more difficult. Yeah, you're logical. People that live in fear of
01:01:20
consequences, they don't think of that. They think of the immediate consequences. Immediate gratification.
01:01:25
Guy wants to get high because he wants to feel this now. But he doesn't realize that later on that cost the consequence
01:01:32
to that job, career, freedom, future, you know, relationships, all the damage that one incident can cause. But if you
01:01:43
own up to something immediately and accept the responsibility for people have a choice then you know who I am.
01:01:49
You can either interact with me or not. But I don't have to have a false front on when I speak with you or interact
01:01:56
with you. That must be quite a challenge still for you to today because you know you now go on podcast you interview talk
01:02:02
about what happened in your life and you there's a lot of things that you did that are hard to say but you're also
01:02:10
battling with this new reality of being honest right about everything. Yes. So, it's not hard for me to say anymore
01:02:17
because if you choose to have a conversation with me about those things, you're going to hear things that you may or may not like, but you chose to be in this conversation. You, your audience,
01:02:28
people that, listen, there's a lot of people that hate me out there. But I know this for a fact. I have people
01:02:34
today reaching out to me that have attempted suicide 10, 15 times. Cops that have had the gun in their mouth and
01:02:40
then their son walked in the room and then I spoke to them the next day. I mean, if I can go down a list of them.
01:02:46
So, you never know what being honest and fully disclosing the the tragedy of life or the experiences of life can do for the next person. And so, that's really where I'm
01:02:58
so happy that I've been able to do that. I have a purpose and it it keeps me connected. You know, look, once you're a
01:03:03
cop, you're sort of always a cop in a way. I mean, there's going to be cops. He's never a cop. He's a bad guy. Well, you know what? [ __ ] you. You eventually
01:03:11
get released on bail after that first arrest, which I think comes to a lot of people's surprise because I think some
01:03:16
people told thought that you were going to be in prison for the rest of your life, but your family put up some assets
01:03:21
to get you out on bail. That was a $350,000 bail, right? It doesn't straighten you up. No. When I get out on
01:03:29
bail, I'm clearheaded, but I don't know what to do because I've never been in this situation. I don't have a job. I
01:03:34
have two, three mortgages to pay. I have a condo on the ocean in Myrtle Beach. I have three homes. The tenants stop
01:03:40
paying the rent because they saw I was arrested. Now I'm back in the chase again to try to get my life back
01:03:47
together. And then it turns into a whole new scenario comes my way. I'm out on bail. I end up making a plan to go to Nicaragua if they can become a shrimp fisherman. Wait, let's pause there a
01:03:59
second. So you're out on bail and you plan to escape the US, which means that you'd be escaping your charges, correct?
01:04:06
But I can't go if I don't pay my family back. I can't leave them homeless. Okay. So, when you go out on bail, your family are basically guaranteeing the money. The money, right? So, if you
01:04:17
don't return from bail, they got to sell their homes to pay my bail. They've got to get $350,000. Yes. So, what you want
01:04:23
to do is you want to get $350,000, give it to your family, correct? So that you can escape the US. Correct. Okay. Yes.
01:04:30
And how would you plan to get that $350,000? There's a scenario comes my way. There's
01:04:37
a woman that owes this drug organization half a million in cash and 10 kilos. All
01:04:42
we have to do is go get the money from her and the drugs and I could pay my family back and we can I can leave the
01:04:48
country and Kenny's going to join me. My partner's back in. But that wasn't the plan. The plan was never to kidnap her.
01:04:56
The plan was to go in with some flowers, push her out of the way, take the money and the drugs. But Kenny is working for the federal government right now wearing a wire. He called me up for
01:05:08
the drugs that brought me into his conspiracy and they made me the kingpin of his conspiracy. How long had you
01:05:13
known Kenny? I had known Kenny since 1985. So now it's 1992. So you'd known him a long time? Yeah, seven years. You'd been friends a long time? Yes. And Kenny
01:05:26
intentionally wears a wire. Correct. And pulls you into a conspiracy. Correct. Working with the police. With the
01:05:32
federal government. Yes. Where they're trying to get you to potentially kidnap this woman, steal her stuff. Correct.
01:05:38
And leave the country. So what does that do? That makes me It takes me from a low-life drug dealer to a low life
01:05:44
kidnapping murderer guy. So then I'll never go home. You see? You see how they they're good. They're good. They take
01:05:51
you from being a drug dealer who's going to get 15, 20 years to a murderer, kidnapper. You took the bait, though.
01:05:57
Took the bait. Swallow it like a pig. So, you've left jail. You're out on bail. Kenny
01:06:04
starts putting in your head this idea of potentially kidnapping or stealing from
01:06:09
this woman. You don't know he's working for the police. And on the day of this attempted kidnap/ robbery, correct?
01:06:16
You're arrested. Correct. Again. Again. again. And how And how does it feel the second time you're arrested? Relief again? No. Now I'm angry. Now I'm pissed
01:06:29
off. I'm pissed off because I'm You got to realize I'm a rat in a corner trying to get out. You throw some cheese in front of me. I go and eat the cheese and
01:06:41
then you poison the cheese, which is Kenny bringing the [ __ ] poison pill to me of this kidnapping theory that
01:06:48
unfolds. Why did you take the bait there? Why didn't you just Because you talked to me. You said you had relief
01:06:54
when you were arrested that first. I Let's dichotomy of this whole thing. It was the greatest relief of my life. But
01:07:01
I jumped back in like a fool. It was, you know, the word fear always comes out first for me. Fear of not being able to provide from now I got a wife and two kids because I I was told I'm getting 25
01:07:14
to life by the state of New York. That'll make anybody consider running. I don't give a [ __ ] who you
01:07:20
are. Now you're a police officer in your 30s. 25 to life, you know. All right. So, you know, you're getting 25. So, maybe 30. So, now I'm 30 something years old. If I get out at 60, maybe if I live
01:07:32
through it, I'm looking to go. Bottom line. Now, whatever opportunity comes along, I'm looking to hit on it.
01:07:38
Whatever I can do. So, I'm like that fish that they dangle that bait. Eventually, that fish is going to bite that hook. What happens to the bail? Did
01:07:44
do your family get to keep their money? Yes. because I got arrested. Because I got arrested. Eventually, you're convicted of rakateeering, organized, which is basically an organized crime
01:07:55
scheme and conspiracy to distribute narcotics. Right. You served 12 years and 5 months in prison. Yeah. That day
01:08:01
you went to prison. If I had asked you, how long do you think you're going to be here? What would you have said? So, when
01:08:07
I was sitting there waiting to get sentenced, I'm think I'm going to get seven, eight years. And uh sure enough,
01:08:13
she was firm and gave me what she thought I deserved. Uh Mr. Dow, that's 168 months. So I'm going, "What the [ __ ] 168 months?" And she knew it. She goes, "That's 14 years." How did you
01:08:25
feel when you heard that? I was devastated. I was devastated. You don't know how you're
01:08:32
going to react. I was pissed and devastated and how I I got to survive this. Like now you go right into survival mode. I
01:08:42
got to survive this. And how am I going to do that? People often think if you're like a cop and you get sent to to prison
01:08:49
that you're going to have a really hard time. You are. Did you have a hard time? Yeah. But I was fortunate enough that
01:08:56
see I went to prison as a as basically a racketeer. Right. So and and and I worked with Dominican drug gangs. 30% of the population is Dominican Puerto Rican
01:09:07
drug dealers in that realm. Then you have your street peddlers which are wouldn't be the same level. And then you
01:09:14
have your white collar guys and your bank robbers. So I was I was a cop sent to I was sent to prison as a police officer for violating human rights for beating and abusing individuals. I was
01:09:27
sent to prison for doing what everybody else in there was doing. So the landing was a little bit different for me. Now
01:09:33
don't say it was not easy. I didn't have people opening a welcoming mat for me. But there were some people that were kind and that helped make made my bid go well. No matter where I am in the world,
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perfectted.com where you can get 40% off your first order with code Steven40. What about your family at this point? Your mom and dad.
01:10:51
Okay, let's watch your head. Yes. Okay. I'm Carol Dow and uh I'm Michael Dow's mother. Well, I remember being in court. I only went to court once and that was the day of
01:11:09
sentencing. And when they said the amount of days he would be away, I didn't really it didn't like hit my
01:11:17
mind, right? Because it was in days. It wasn't in years, you know. when somebody says that could be 15
01:11:25
years and we tried to deal with it the best we could. Everything was going smooth in our lives and then all of a
01:11:31
sudden this hit when I saw him. I guess my first reaction was I love him but I want to just reach in through the bars that between us and say what did you do
01:11:44
this for? You know I can I can only imagine Yeah. the the emotions that must go through your head when you when you
01:11:51
find out something like that. Yeah, it's it's terrible. Believe me, it's terrible. Especially when you think
01:11:57
you're dealing with something else. You're dealing with a kid who was honest and reliable and smart and
01:12:06
good. Absolutely shocked. I was angry, very angry at him. How could you do this? You know, that type of thing. She took eight months to come see me. Eight months? Yeah. And
01:12:20
then she finally came and she she didn't want to let me go. You know, that was tough. She had she went to church every
01:12:34
day 12 years. She's able. That's tough. Yeah. Okay. Why why do you think that that moved him so much? Uh I don't think he ever really
01:13:26
sits back and thinks about the other people, you know, the other people in his life, his father, his mother, his
01:13:34
family. It was all about him. It wasn't about anybody else around him. How does that make you feel when you see see him? It made me feel glad that he felt
01:13:48
sorry because he never really says this in front of us, but it made me feel glad that he
01:13:55
remembered that I went to church and prayed for him. He had good parents, believe me. And I don't know why this happened to him. He was a skinny little kid on the corner with a
01:14:08
police uniform on and the authority, I guess, went to his head. I'm not sure. You know, she's always the uh Bob was always
01:14:20
the the weather vein of what's right and wrong, right? I [ __ ] with my mother my whole [ __ ] life cuz she always kept me on track,
01:14:33
you know. I tried to. Yeah, she's tough. She's still tough to [ __ ] get me. You cocksuck a [ __ ] sucker. You [ __ ]
01:14:51
prick. You it's it's it's it's it's so interesting to see to see that that emotion because
01:14:58
it it really tells me a lot about the relationship you have with this woman. I don't even know this woman, but I can see the relationship.
01:15:06
We fight every [ __ ] page. My father leaves the room, but we get like you guys are always fighting.
01:15:19
That's that's what your mother does cuz she's the one who keeps you to the mat, you know. She puts you on the mat. My father, ah, it's okay. We'll get over it. But my mother, she holds you to
01:15:32
account. Mother holds you to account. But she loves you still. She went to church for every day. Every
01:15:39
day. I never knew that. I never knew that. I only found that out a year ago. I'm home 20 years. She only told me that about a year
01:15:53
ago. What? Why did Why does that move you so much to find out she went to church every day when you were in jail? Because we My mother's not very loveydovey.
01:16:06
I am. She's not. And uh cuz my father was, you know, but you know, when you're raised by my mother was raised by nuns, you know, very cold and
01:16:19
calculating. You never knew she had a heart. I mean, to go to church every [ __ ] day. They must really love you.
01:16:28
I guess it's speak for itself. [Laughter] You know, I had to have some discipline raising that many children. You have to
01:16:43
have discipline. And of course, you kiss them good night. You kiss them goodbye. You love them, but my showing my love was like making them breakfast.
01:16:55
I made them breakfast, you know. So that was kind of a a way to show your love, you know. I was here for them all the time, but I was not I was not mushy, you
01:17:11
know. And he's right. It was hard for him to understand what I was going through because I never showed my emotions to them. The only emotions they get they would get is get up in the room
01:17:24
and clean it up. get upstairs you and hang those clothes up, you know. So, there was always that direction or order. So, I was pretty tough, but that's the way I
01:17:38
am, I think, because of the way I was raised. I didn't have a happy childhood, but that's, you know, that could be a reason why I was tough, but I
01:17:50
was tough. Maybe I was too tough. What is that range of emotions you feel about them now in the wake of all of
01:18:03
this? Um that they persevered. They persevered when I didn't think much of their traals that they were going through. I wish I could be them to my kids. When
01:18:23
I reflect on it, I'm like, I'm not them. I can never be them. I just can't. But yeah, it's really heavy for me to to like that. I don't think anybody asked me that question before because that's
01:18:35
really I mean, I'm 64 years old, bro. My parents are 80s, you know. Uh days on this earth are numbered for all of us. And uh we don't know when the next one's going to come or not. And uh with them I
01:18:50
call them almost every day just to see you know hear their voice make sure check everything good. Yeah. Okay.
01:18:58
Is there guilt associated with them in particular? [Music] Um I don't even know what guilt is anymore. Sometimes I just think it's I
01:19:11
have compassion for what they've had to deal with. So if you can translate that to
01:19:18
guilt, I guess so. But for me, it's more like they're amaz. That's amazing what they did and what they still do. Like and maybe there's a sense of pride and
01:19:29
maybe some shame. Um there's a lot of gratitude there. I am so grateful like be that would be that would be the best way to describe. Yeah. because I didn't
01:19:42
have that for my parents growing up cuz I was the one. I was the star. I was going to
01:19:50
bring my family someplace. And in the end, it came back to the people that I was always told not to be like, don't be like dad, be somebody
01:20:03
else. You know, my mother, she came from a broken home. Don't be like don't be like your mother, be like somebody else.
01:20:10
But they these are the perfect people. It all comes back to them really. If you think about it, without them I' I'd be
01:20:16
in I'd be inside, you know, because you left prison after jail after 13 odd years and you were 43 years old. You left? Yeah. I'm going to say I was 44 actually
01:20:28
when I stepped out the door. Yeah. So you said stepped out the door at 44 years old and you went back home. Yes.
01:20:34
Right. Yeah. To their house. To their house. Yeah. Yeah, that's, you know, quite the story.
01:20:41
I looked out the window. I saw my my brother's two kids. I didn't know their names. And I'm looking at these two
01:20:46
kids. Those are my nephews. I don't know. I don't even know who they are. I don't know their names. And then uh you
01:20:52
see the tears flowing. That's was 10 times first shower I took in freedom. And uh I didn't know if it was the water or my tears that were cascading over me.
01:21:02
That's no exaggeration. I had to rebuild a life from there. But without them and that
01:21:09
shower, without that moment of realizing the loss. See, people don't realize the loss. The loss is from the time you're
01:21:16
you graduated high school and finished two and a half years of college. You left that and then the next 20 [ __ ]
01:21:23
something years of your life. Zero is a zero. You know, that's the that's the you come out to zero. You are zero. Like what we all measure ourselves by what we've gained over life. I don't have a
01:21:36
car. I don't have a dollar. I don't have any clothes. I have nothing. And now I'm
01:21:42
44 years old. But I had two wonderful people. Your mom and your dad? Yeah. Not everybody could get that.
01:21:54
Did you want to go back to prison? Yes. When you came out? When I first came home? Yeah. Because people talk about
01:21:59
being institutionalized where prison becomes home and comfort and familiarity. Yeah. Was that the case for
01:22:05
you? Yes. I when I first came home, I I I didn't know I didn't even know how to order a hot dog. Like, I didn't know
01:22:11
how. I didn't know how to metriculate through society. That same moment, I came out of the shower and I stood there and I said, "What am I going to do with
01:22:17
my life? I got to get a job. What's it like to get a job?" Forget about getting a job when you come out of prison.
01:22:22
That's like almost impossible. Just so you know, like there's no [ __ ] It's almost impossible to get a job and you come home from prison. Now you're a
01:22:28
dirty cop. Who the [ __ ] wants to hire a dirty cop? You you disparage the the public's trust. You you you robbed drug
01:22:35
dealers. You sold drugs. You did cocaine. Oh, did you want to hire me? You didn't know your kids when you came
01:22:41
out? I didn't know my kids. I uh How could you? I was gone for 12 and a half years. My son was six. He five and a half. He went to college. My other son was was 11 months
01:22:56
and he was going into second year of high school by the time I went to see him. Well, first year of high school. So
01:23:03
I didn't know them. So that was a tough situation to walk into. And uh yeah, you
01:23:08
tried to get a job as a handyman thereafter. Eventually you go on to be approached to make a documentary about
01:23:14
your life called the 75 documentary which explains your life in more detail and everything that happened. And the
01:23:21
documentary was centering on the Mullen Commission which was a commission set up in New York by the mayor at the time to
01:23:28
assess the extent of corruption in the NYPD. Correct. And before you were arrested there were 16 complaints that
01:23:34
had been made against you in the years to the Internal Affairs Bureau. You didn't provide any names at
01:23:41
the Mullen Commission. You said at the time if I speak before your commission a lot of cops are going to commit suicide.
01:23:47
Yes, that's correct. And during those hearings at that commission, you admitted to hundreds of crimes, but later you said it's probably more like
01:23:53
thousands. And you explain the context of that. Correct. And in that commission, you admitted that both police and drug dealers were your employees. And as a result of this
01:23:59
commission, 200 officers were arrested for drug trafficking. Correct. So that commission was a huge moment um back in
01:24:06
1992 where things really Yeah. to be the commission actually took place in 93. But yes, in association to my arrest.
01:24:13
Yes. And that was 10 years ago roughly. Yes. So that was 201 15 16 15. If I went back and I spoke to Mike at let's say 18 years old. Yeah.
01:24:26
What was like the most important thing that he needed to hear that he didn't hear? What was what would you if you
01:24:32
could teleport back now and whisper in his ear? Yeah. What would you say to him?
01:24:38
Yeah. Well, you know, maybe I I would I'm proud of you and I love you. You know, I'm proud of you and I love
01:24:51
you. That's simple. Two words. Why did he need to hear that? What would it what would that have changed? Well, because we never know that we're doing enough.
01:25:01
And um to be full of pride can be damaging, but for others to be proud of you, like
01:25:14
you wonder what did I do that would give you that that gives you a sense of pride on my behalf, let's say, like why would
01:25:20
you be proud of me? Well, because I like the way you handle people. you go out of your way, you know, which is both
01:25:27
showing love and it's a reason for you friends to be proud. I'm proud of Mike. Why? Because he sacrifices of himself for others. Like like that's sort of in my nature, I guess, to begin with. Did
01:25:39
you feel like anyone was proud of you at that age? You know, you're getting back to my mother. Okay. You're getting me back to my mother stuff. And I've always been seeking my mother's approval for some
01:25:53
reason. My dad was always pretty proud of me, you know. And do you think that if someone had said that to you at 18
01:25:59
years old that they're proud of you, that they loved you, do you think it's likely that you wouldn't have made the
01:26:04
decisions you then went on to make? I think uh so so one time hearing that would do nothing for anybody. But if
01:26:11
that's what you felt, but to be felt feel that and to be constantly reassured, I think that that could make some significant changes in any person
01:26:18
because I as I'm thinking it through, I've always was seeking my mother's approval. I mean, every problem I ever
01:26:25
[ __ ] had with a woman, I would always like profess my mother's I don't have my
01:26:30
mother's approval. Somehow it would come out. I'm disappointing my mother. And that never has had left me. I think now I'm okay. You know, my mom and I are
01:26:40
pretty pretty cool, you know. When she told me she was praying for me every day, I'm like, I didn't even think you liked me,
01:26:47
you know. So, yeah. So, does this corruption still go on in the police department? Yeah. Oh, it's massive. So, it's still happening now. It's massive. It's just everything changes, but it's
01:26:59
still corruption. And so, when I was a corrupt police officer, the corruption was at the lower level because it was a street level corruption. Today it's all up at the top and it's plenty of it.
01:27:11
It's all about big budgets and money power. Do you think they'll always Listen, they had the girl bend over and
01:27:17
get taken up the ass. Excuse me. The police chief did what? Grabbed the lube from his location, bent the girl over the couch,
01:27:28
and [ __ ] her in the ass recently. Yes. And he was paying her for it. on overtime. Who was this? This was a
01:27:40
sex worker or This is a [ __ ] lieutenant. Oh, so that the chief was having sex with the lieutenant. Yeah,
01:27:46
cuz she needed money to pay her bills. Oh, okay. Okay. He gave her $200,000 in overtime pay. This is what goes on. That's the corruption that goes on today.
01:28:01
Do you think there's still drug corruption going on with drugs and drug dealers and stuff like that? Not to the
01:28:06
extent that it was. No, but there's always some. It's always here's how it's today. Corruption is today hit and miss
01:28:13
scores opportunity. There's no systematic corruption today. There may be a few. There may be a few, but very few. When you say scores, you mean cops showing up at somewhere, finding
01:28:23
something and finding something and taking it. Like that would be the corruption you would run in today more than anything else in that in in that
01:28:30
kind of level of corruption. But systematic corruption of the bureaucracy itself is
01:28:36
massive. What was the most you you um how much money you made in a day? You said it was 40,000. 40,000. Yeah. And
01:28:43
and was that the Yeah. It's the funny thing is I could have made 150,000 if Diaz said I should have took the money
01:28:49
from that the robbery where they left the money behind. He said you should have took that money. At least I know
01:28:54
someone would have got it. He said the cops got it. Wow. Yeah. So So yeah. So, I I mean,
01:29:01
listen, there's a thousand stories in that city. Uh, every day was a it's like being in a
01:29:07
movie, but you're just you're actually part of it every every [ __ ] day, you know? It's just insane. I listen, I
01:29:14
loved being a police officer. I didn't think that I would. Um, it's the greatest job in the world if you have
01:29:21
the support that you need. You can have a wonderful day as a police officer. going to have a horrible day, but in the
01:29:28
end, all you really want is love. Don't we all? Mike, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question that's been
01:29:39
left for you is, what is the gift that the universe, life, or God has put you here to share? Well, uh, if you don't mind, I'm going
01:29:51
to say it again, and I said it on the saw fight on the belly. Just just everybody needs more
01:29:59
love. Just love. Just love each other. Listen. Just listen to your friends. Listen to your neighbors. Just listen. Patient
01:30:12
love. Why? you'll find that we have more in common than we don't. Mike, thank you. It's been an absolute
01:30:23
pleasure speaking to you and um I mean, what an incredible life you have lived. Incredible isn't a very intentional word
01:30:29
there because you're right, it does sound like it's a movie effectively. It sounds like you some of the stories that
01:30:34
you've told and the things you've been through are unthinkable, but in the context of the human side of everything you've shared, it also makes sense. You know,
01:30:45
we go through experiences in our lives and we can kind of take one or two routes and that the experience you went
01:30:51
through, the love you did or didn't have, the words that went said or unsaid can take any of us in any direction. And
01:30:58
even me sat here today, there were moments in my early life where I remember a friend turning around to me
01:31:03
and saying to me one day, he said, "You're either going to be a millionaire or a criminal." He and he was one of my
01:31:09
best friends. It was my my my friend Joe. Remember exactly where I stood when he said it because I knew it was the
01:31:14
truth. Yes. Like I knew it was the truth. I knew that effectively I was so desperate to be successful. Yeah. That
01:31:20
that desperation would take me to great lengths. And those great lengths, especially when you're a young man and you don't understand consequence in the same way, those great lengths can trip you over any kind of moral barrier.
01:31:32
Fortunately, I was really scared. I was like scared of That's a lesson. Yes. Yeah. I was and I was there was early
01:31:39
parts of my career where I was offered opportunities to go in a certain direction. Um especially when I dropped out of university and they explained to
01:31:47
me, you know, the situation. Um and I was too scared to take them up on the offer. And actually the path of least
01:31:53
resistance for me was going into business and building businesses and doing those kinds of things. But it all stemmed from an underlying probably
01:31:59
insecurity but also fear. Yeah. And desperate and just like desperately wanting to live a better life. And kind
01:32:05
of like what you said about your parents, desperately wanting to be more, you know, if you think about business or
01:32:10
entrepreneurship as well, it is like self-punishment. So it's like a huge risk, huge punishment, um great uncertainty. So to do such a thing to
01:32:22
like to start a company to take that big of a risk there's going to have to be a pretty strong macro tailwind driving
01:32:28
force that's making you do that and a lot of the time having sat here with CEOs and founders and people that achieve great success it's much of what
01:32:34
you've described it's maybe a parent that didn't love me enough it's maybe living in your father's footsteps it's
01:32:40
maybe being bullied in school it's maybe being told you aren't good enough in some way and that's the escape velocity
01:32:45
that propels us into a better or worse life. Yeah. Thank you so much, Mike. I really, really appreciate it. What a journey. We launched these conversation cards and they sold out. And we launched them again and they sold out again. We
01:32:56
launched them again and they sold out again because people love playing these with colleagues at work, with friends at home, and also with family. And we've
01:33:03
also got a big audience that use them as journal prompts. Every single time a guest comes on the diary of a CEO, they
01:33:08
leave a question for the next guest in the diary. And I've sat here with some of the most incredible people in the world, and they've left all of these
01:33:15
questions in the diary. And I've ranked them from one to three in terms of the depth. One being a starter question. And
01:33:23
level three, if you look on the back here, this is a level three, becomes a much deeper question, that builds even
01:33:29
more connection. If you turn the cards over and you scan that QR code, you can see who answered the card and watch the video of them answering it in real time. So, if you would like to get your hands
01:33:40
on some of these conversation cards, go to the diary.com or look at the link in the description below.
01:33:48
[Music] a deep. Hey [Music]