00:00:00
saw a video that you made it punched me in the face the reason why my TED Talks
00:00:06
went viral was because Dr Robert waldinger a Harvard psychiatrist and director of the longest study ever done
00:00:12
on what makes humans live happy or unhappy lives is Ted Talk is one of the most viewed of all time for 85 years
00:00:19
we've tracked the lives of 724 families through their entire adult lives looking
00:00:25
at mental health physical health to see what really keeps people happy and healthy some of the participants donated
00:00:31
their brains they have we know so much about them in life and now we get to examine their brains most surprising
00:00:37
finding in the study was that it's our relationships that keep us healthier and happier there is research that shows
00:00:44
that actually people who are married men live 12 years longer and women live seven years longer that said it's it's
00:00:51
not the marriage license it's about starting in the 1950s we stopped
00:00:57
investing in other people being lonely is as dangerous to your health as
00:01:02
smoking half a pack of cigarettes a day isolation can break down your coronary
00:01:08
arteries your joints the brain declines sooner my mission now is going to be to
00:01:14
bring this science that we've worked so hard to develop and bring it to people in ways that they can use looking at
00:01:21
that research what are the factors that made those relationships most successful well most surprising finding in the
00:01:28
study was that would you like to go for dinner with me
00:01:35
and my guests here on the diver CEO we are holding dinner parties all around the world over the coming months and our
00:01:42
subscribers on this YouTube channel are invited we're inviting 20 subscribers to every dinner so if you'd like to come
00:01:48
for dinner with me and my guests here on the Diary of SEO I have a favor to ask you all you've got to do is hit the
00:01:54
Subscribe button and I hope to see you at dinner somewhere around the world very soon
00:01:59
[Music]
00:02:05
Robert who are you and
00:02:11
what is the mission that you're on I am a psychiatrist I'm uh a married
00:02:19
father of two grown sons I'm a Zen priest and I'm a researcher and the
00:02:27
mission that I'm on is to relieve the suffering that's
00:02:33
optional in the world that's the vow I took as a Zen priest
00:02:40
what is that optional suffering you're referring to well there's some suffering that's not optional right there's pain
00:02:46
there's there's so many things that we can't control that hurt that that we
00:02:51
suffer from but then there's optional suffering there are all the the stories
00:02:57
we tell ourselves about things that turn out not to be true things that I worry about that turn out
00:03:04
to amount to nothing um Mark Twain had a wonderful quote that I
00:03:11
love he said some of the worst things in my life never happened and and that's
00:03:17
the optional suffering that we're talking about the all the ways that we imagine things that make us suffer a
00:03:23
great deal so let's go down those two paths psychiatrist and Zen priest what does it
00:03:29
mean to be a psychiatrist what does that mean practically in terms of your work it means working with people who are
00:03:37
struggling with mental illnesses with conditions for
00:03:43
which we have help and some of the help is medication some of the help it's talk
00:03:49
therapy um I became fascinated by how the mind
00:03:54
works that was what was most exciting for me when I was a medical student
00:03:59
and I realized that it was going to keep me interested most of my career and it
00:04:05
has because everybody's so different I mean I realized that if you treat one case of high blood pressure you sort of
00:04:12
know what the next one's going to look like but when you talk to a new person it's never the same as the person you
00:04:20
talked to last week so being a psychiatrist for me is getting to take deep Dives
00:04:26
into people's life experience there's a there's a through line here to
00:04:31
the third pillar of um what I find so absolutely fascinating about you and it's also the thing that
00:04:37
introduced me to you many years ago I was a young man who was incredibly I
00:04:44
would say I would say addicted to some degree to work I was pursuing money at all costs
00:04:51
um I was that sort of typical Millennial I think you've referenced in the book that had his priorities and all the wrong orders particularly at that point
00:04:57
I'd sacrificed so many things the stuff that you write about that makes life so meaningful presence I you know my
00:05:03
happiness was off somewhere in the future behind some future imaginary goal and I was sat in a room in Manchester
00:05:10
I think I was in a region of I'm gonna say somewhere between 18 and 20 years old
00:05:17
and then I saw a video that you had made a TED Talk you had done it's one of the
00:05:23
most watched TED talks of all time and it was about it was the longest study on happiness ever done it was the Harvard
00:05:28
study of adult development I think it's called and it it punched me in the face
00:05:34
and it punched me in the face because I've never forgotten it and I've talked about it frequently you know every
00:05:40
quarter or every couple of months since then but it punched me in the face because it made me confront something that I think
00:05:47
I knew at some deeper level I was maybe getting wrong and that was
00:05:53
the nature of what really makes us happy as humans yeah um can you tell me about the Harvard study
00:05:59
of adult development what what the aim of it was and how you in particular got involved with it sure
00:06:06
um the study is the longest study of human life that's ever been done as far
00:06:12
as we know of the same people going through their entire adult lives that's what's so rare about it most research is
00:06:19
snapshots in the moment or over two weeks or a month so this is over 85
00:06:25
years 724 families it was started in 1938 it
00:06:32
started as two studies that actually didn't know about each other one was a study of Harvard college students 19
00:06:41
year olds young men who were thought by the Deans to be fine upstanding
00:06:46
specimens and this was going to be a study of normal development from adolescents into young adulthood I mean
00:06:53
now we smile because you know if you want to study normal development you study all white males from Harvard you
00:06:59
don't do that it's so Politically Incorrect but at that time that's what they were doing and the other study was
00:07:07
started at Harvard Law School by a law professor and his wife a social worker
00:07:13
who were interested in juvenile delinquency and they were particularly interested in how some children from
00:07:21
really troubled backgrounds managed to stay out of trouble and stay on good
00:07:26
developmental paths like how how could that be what were the conditions that allowed these young people to thrive
00:07:34
so they chose boys from the city of Boston in 1938 whose families were known
00:07:42
to on average five social service agencies for domestic violence parental
00:07:48
mental illness physical illness and they studied all those boys again
00:07:54
looking at what makes people thrive and so both of these studies
00:07:59
were studies of good normal development instead of studies of what goes wrong
00:08:05
most of what we study is what goes wrong so that we can help people so these were Radical in that sense and
00:08:13
then nobody expected the studies to last more than five or the most ten years
00:08:19
and the founders of the study would never have dreamed that you and I would
00:08:24
be talking about this study today and the fact that we're still collecting data even as we speak
00:08:29
from the children of all of these original 724 families
00:08:36
wow you're still collecting data from the
00:08:41
children of the participants yes and are the founders of the studies still alive oh no they're long gone
00:08:48
um I'm the fourth director um wow
00:08:54
and the third director was my teacher when I was a medical student he lectured
00:08:59
to my class about this study of men who were then in their 50s and I thought this is amazing and then about 15 years
00:09:07
later he took me out to lunch one day and said how would you like to inherit this study and I was flabbergasted but
00:09:15
very excited to be able to do it what was the study aiming to to answer
00:09:21
it was looking at the big domains of life it was looking at mental health
00:09:26
physical health work life and relationships and
00:09:31
what the study has done is looked at all of those same domains over and over
00:09:37
again year after year for 85 years what's exciting for me about it is that
00:09:43
we've changed our methods so initially there were interviews and medical exams and people went to their homes and
00:09:50
talked to their parents well now we draw blood for DNA I mean DNA wasn't even
00:09:55
imagined in 1938 we put people into MRI scanners and watch their brains light up
00:10:03
when we show them different kinds of images and you know that was that would have been science fiction to scientists
00:10:10
in 1938 so what I love is we're studying the same subjects but we're studying
00:10:15
them using very different methods over time I read that some of the participants of
00:10:22
the study that have passed away have donated their brains they have we have about 30 brains
00:10:29
sitting on shelves in a laboratory at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston
00:10:35
and and what's rare about them most brains are collected because there was a
00:10:40
big problem in life for example Dementia or a brain tumor or something these are normal brains and so
00:10:47
what's rare is that these are brains about which we know what their life was
00:10:53
like when they were 20 years old when they were 30 years old we know so much about them in life and
00:11:01
now we get to examine their brains so this study you became the director of it
00:11:07
um let's start top level then how did this study sets out to answer some of the big questions in life the most
00:11:13
important things about what makes us happy what keeps us healthy socially healthy physically healthy you've got
00:11:18
the longest study of of humans that anyone thinks has ever been done you've been studying them for decades upon
00:11:24
decades looking at that research and being a first party to all of that
00:11:30
that information how has it changed you it's very much made me take care of my
00:11:37
own relationships so because the biggest most surprising finding in the study was
00:11:43
that it's our relationships that keep us healthier and happier you know I'm a Harvard Professor I could
00:11:50
work non-stop until I drop dead I mean that's just the way Academia works
00:11:56
and what I realized was particularly once my kids weren't there pulling me away to go take them somewhere or do
00:12:03
something with them that I could just work all the time and so what I've started doing is to be much more
00:12:10
intentional about calling my friends about saying let's go for a walk let's go out to dinner let's make sure we get
00:12:17
together I never would have done that before particularly as a man I think women are much better my wife is much
00:12:24
better at calling friends on the phone at making sure they get together I had
00:12:29
to teach myself to do that I had to make myself do it I had to take my own
00:12:35
medicine if you will based on what I was studying in my work life
00:12:40
what do we what do we get wrong about the the subject matter of Happiness like if you were to ask those participants
00:12:46
what they thought would cause happiness in their lives or you were to ask I don't know a millennial what are the answers that we say and how wrong are we
00:12:53
and are we good at knowing someone asked me this yesterday at an event they put their hand up and they
00:12:58
said we're talking about remote working and this whole change disruption that's happened in the workplace and they put
00:13:04
the hand up I think they're a CEO and they said do my employees actually know what they want and it was a really curious question I
00:13:11
ended up answering and this is maybe a little bit controversial but I ended up answering that most of us don't know what we want in most facets of our life
00:13:18
yes and we're bad at knowing what's going to make us happy I'll give you an example and it's in the book
00:13:24
um there was a study in the city of Chicago where
00:13:30
they were studying commuters people who were about to get on the train and take
00:13:36
the train to work like they did every day and so they they took a random sample of
00:13:42
people in one group and they were assigned to do what they always do on the train it could have been listening
00:13:48
to music or reading the news on their phone whatever they did the other group randomly was assigned to talk to a
00:13:55
stranger on the train which none of them had ever done and they asked them beforehand how much
00:14:02
do you think you're going to like this assignment we've just given you and the people who were assigned to talk to strangers said I'm not going to enjoy
00:14:08
this afterwards after they completed their assignments the people who had talked to strangers were much happier
00:14:15
than the people who had done their usual staying on their phones or reading the newspaper so it's an example of how
00:14:23
we're not so good at knowing what's going to make us happy and particularly
00:14:29
when it comes to connecting with each other that there's something about these
00:14:35
kind of small conversations that we can have with strangers or even with someone
00:14:41
we barely know that turn out to be very energizing more of the time than not but
00:14:47
we're always afraid we're afraid someone's going to think we're strange if we strike up a conversation or we're
00:14:52
gonna get stuck talking to someone who who we don't like but what we find is that that the
00:15:01
culture gives us these messages about what will make us happy that turn out not to be the truth
00:15:07
um a lot of the messages are about consumerism you know we're told if you buy this car you're going to be happy if
00:15:14
you you know if you serve this brand of pasta you're going to have Blissful family dinners you know and even though
00:15:20
we sort of know that this isn't the truth the the advertisements really do inculcate this sense that if we consume
00:15:28
the right things that will will be happy and what we know from from our research
00:15:34
and many other studies is that's just not so um and that these these connections with
00:15:39
each other actually do make us happy I mean for example you and I are talking
00:15:45
now and your questions and your interest in my work is actually energizing for me
00:15:51
it's actually making me happier than when I walked in the door today why
00:15:57
I think there's something about wanting to be seen like you're actually
00:16:03
saying I want to know you I want to know what's going on with you and and that
00:16:09
there's something about that that that makes us feel like we belong that makes us feel like we're connected and so what
00:16:15
we notice and and what we talk about in the book is this idea that
00:16:21
uh that when when we actually are curious about another person it's giving
00:16:26
them a gift it's giving them a way to be seen a way to tell about themselves that
00:16:33
we all really yearn for at some level or almost all of us do and so it's something we can give to
00:16:39
each other every day when you compare and contrast the two lists list
00:16:45
a which says what we think we want and B what your study on happiness has shown that actually leads to
00:16:52
happiness however we Define it what are the things just in order that we're most wrong about
00:17:00
probably the three big ones we're most wrong about fame fame and wealth yeah
00:17:05
and badges of achievement if I win this prize right uh if I if I get to be CEO
00:17:13
that kind of thing um and because the culture tells us all
00:17:19
day long that these will make us happy and because they're measurable I think one of the things you know if you think
00:17:25
about Fame I mean it's likes it's how many downloads of a podcast it's how many people read a book right
00:17:32
and it's measurable it's quantifiable wealth of course is quantifiable and
00:17:38
achievement but what we know is that those things don't do it now meaningful
00:17:44
work can make us happy can be fulfilling that's different from getting the prize
00:17:49
getting the badge foreign by contrast you can't measure
00:17:55
relationships they're they're kind of messy and you know complicated and and
00:18:01
and they're often full of ups and downs and conflicts
00:18:07
um and so so you you can't quantify it you can't hold on to it it's always
00:18:12
changing and so by contrast these these relationships that actually turn out to
00:18:17
make us happy are not you can't get your hands around them as easily as you can you can get your hands around these
00:18:25
these these things you can kind of grab for these shiny brass objects you can go
00:18:30
for so why do we why do we you know outside of the media influence why are we do we
00:18:36
have or sort of proclivity to strive for things like Fame is there like an evolutionary basis for wanting to be
00:18:45
famous or rich or High status I guess can I get into zen a little bit of
00:18:51
course you can please okay there's a writer named David Loy Loy who writes
00:18:56
about this and and I think he's really on to something that in Zen philosophy that if you really
00:19:04
look for the self if you sit down on a meditation cushion and you look and I
00:19:09
look for Bob like who's Bob I can't find him I can't find a me anywhere I can
00:19:15
find a swirl of thoughts and ever-changing Sensations coming from my
00:19:21
body and but I can't really find a fixed thing that I call Bob and that if at
00:19:27
that what David Lloyd argues is that all of us at some level know this that there
00:19:33
isn't really a fixed self that's going to go on through time and it's going to
00:19:38
last after I die and that it's at some level scary to know that right and what David Lloyd
00:19:46
argues is that many of us are grabbing for things like wealth and fame and
00:19:52
dominating the Earth and dominating each other in this kind of wish to make ourselves feel more real more permanent
00:19:59
more fixed like we really exist and I think he's right I think it's
00:20:06
something think about all the ways you know I think about all the ways I've been preoccupied with you know am I
00:20:13
going to be remembered when I'm gone well I'm probably not you know 50 years
00:20:18
from now nobody's gonna really remember who I was and if I really let that sink into my
00:20:25
bones that's scary and so I'd I'd rather write a book with my name on it I'd
00:20:31
rather you know endow a building that'll keep my name on it for a while until the
00:20:36
building falls down do something that makes me last longer that makes the the Bob self feel more real so that's the
00:20:45
that's the Deep Zen dive that I didn't mean to take you on but but that's I think for me the most helpful
00:20:52
explanation at why we all myself included get preoccupied why these buy
00:20:58
these Badges of achievement if you will with that comes a ton of suffering right the desire to be permanent yeah and
00:21:05
significant and to compare ourselves because with that comes comparison and we know that when we compare ourselves
00:21:12
to others more frequently during the day we are less happy even if it's a positive comparison I.E we're doing a
00:21:19
downward comparison even it's a even if it's a positive comparison because there's always the threat of
00:21:25
falling short you're deciding to play a game which is
00:21:31
yeah it's like a psychological decision to play a game which sometimes you'll win but sometimes you'll
00:21:37
you'll lose exactly it's better not to play the game of comparison altogether well what I find is when I put the
00:21:44
comparisons aside which I can sometimes I'm so much more at peace
00:21:50
um you know when someone says to me do you know that so and so got this many views or so and so you know had this
00:21:57
many likes on social media I can feel a little part of myself get anxious or
00:22:04
close off or or start making that that comparison that that
00:22:09
almost physically hurts a little bit and when I let that go if I can just sit and
00:22:15
and look at a tree for five minutes I get a sense of equanimity that I can't
00:22:21
get when I'm doing these small comparisons the brain engages in these
00:22:27
comparisons um quite naturally you know it's trying to make snap decisions so it doesn't have to
00:22:34
expend too much energy about the value of things and what things mean so it kind of Compares One thing to another I've read about the studies in
00:22:40
restaurants where they add an expensive stake to the menu and now because
00:22:45
there's a really expensive one people will assume that the low price stake is not good and they'll avoid that one
00:22:51
they'll go for the middle one yeah their decision changes based on the the frame in which they see the options or the
00:22:58
choice and it's the same with humans we're trying to figure out the value of ourselves by snap comparisons when you
00:23:03
hear about these things that the brain is doing these like comparisons you go why does the brain hate me exactly exactly the other thing is when
00:23:11
I look at the animal world I think you know think about all the ways that we get preoccupied with do I look right or
00:23:17
you know do am I dressed right or have I achieved enough right and then I look at birds and I think I bet they're not
00:23:24
showing up worrying about those things and what a what a relief what a what a wonderful thing not to be worried about
00:23:31
those things and I do find that this practice of mine can get me there some
00:23:36
of the time not all the time but some of the time I used to you know I used to wonder on that point of like why why
00:23:42
does the brain hate me I know the brain doesn't hate you like I used to wonder with weight loss for example until I sat
00:23:48
here with dietary experts why when I have some sugar
00:23:53
I then get sugar Cravings yeah and they explain to me that your brain is actually on your side it's trying to help you to survive once upon a time
00:24:00
when we didn't have fridges and supermarkets and ubereats and whatever else coming across some sugar was a would
00:24:07
Advance your chances of survival it would give you energy Etc and even with the comparison it's a tool that helps me
00:24:13
make quick decisions my brain doesn't hate me but the world we live in was not designed for my brain exactly I wasn't
00:24:21
supposed to be able to look at a billion people on a glass screen and so the suffering is really a byproduct of a changing world not a not a brain that
00:24:28
hates you and I see that throughout your work is the world has changed to make us unhappy in several ways yes what do we
00:24:35
do about that we can't leave the world no we can't leave the world and and the
00:24:40
world is always going to keep changing and so for example if we sometimes we can we can demonize screens and we can
00:24:47
demonize the digital Revolution that's not going away you know and so really
00:24:53
it's about being as adaptable as we can but I think for me the question is how
00:24:59
can we be as intentional as possible that that our brains evolved as you're
00:25:05
saying they don't hate us but they evolved in certain ways and so they need correctives
00:25:11
similarly the digital world has evolved in certain ways and so
00:25:16
the digital software is designed digital media is designed to grab our attention and hold it to
00:25:23
exploit that right to exploit that brain so then how can we be intentional enough
00:25:29
to turn away from that software when we need to right when we need to turn
00:25:34
toward each other it'll need to have real time contact with each other that's so
00:25:40
nourishing emotionally and psychologically how can we keep from going down the rabbit hole that social
00:25:48
media has evolved to keep us hooked on not because social media is evil just
00:25:55
because that's how they've developed in order for people to make a living it is quite exhausting I think sometimes
00:26:01
I think because you're right industry and um business and even the High Street if you walk down the High Street you know
00:26:08
outside everything is designed to exploit the brain you like the shops are selling sugar and carbs and or you can
00:26:15
go to the gambling shop and that will exploit your brain and you know it's dopamine response to flashing lights and
00:26:20
pulling that lever on the um it's difficult it is difficult and and
00:26:26
that's where suffering comes in you know one of the things I see as a psychiatrist but we all see this is that
00:26:33
people often want to change their state they just want to change how they feel there's this great cartoon I like this
00:26:40
is there's this meditator sitting on a cushion and there's a thought bubble over his head and what he's thinking is
00:26:46
I really do want to be in the moment just not this moment and if you think
00:26:52
about all the ways in which we want to change our state by gambling the excitement of gambling or the the sugar
00:26:59
high we get when I when I get some delicious ice cream or you know that it's a way of changing that kind of
00:27:07
sense of malaise that comes over us moment to moment and I think one of the things we can do
00:27:13
instead is simply be present for that malaise and then watch it pass which it
00:27:19
does eventually right so basically by and large we're trying to get rid of
00:27:24
some of the Less Pleasant experiences of our momentary life but they'll pass all
00:27:31
by themselves if you just pay attention does that require this thing called
00:27:36
discipline yeah it does if we come to watching and not grabbing on for the next thing to make my feeling go away
00:27:45
I was um I was reading through the chapter in your book about time and attention and death
00:27:51
um cheery right yeah it's one of the subject matters that I'm really compelled by and I I've actually been
00:27:57
writing a lot in my upcoming book about the topic of death and the order in which I wrote was
00:28:03
um I started by talking about time and and death because I think they're sort of intrinsically linked to understand the importance of time you need to
00:28:09
understand that you are gonna die which I don't think many humans really understand and then I was going to deliver some time management techniques
00:28:16
in my book because I thought right I've I've set up the conversation that time is important so now give the reader some
00:28:22
time management techniques I've researched all the time management techniques I looked at the ones that I use and I realized there were thousands
00:28:28
of them now there's thousands of them for the same reasons that there are thousands of fad diets
00:28:34
because none of them work unless you have this thing called discipline yeah and this is what you
00:28:39
know as a Zen priest you know it's all well and good knowing the techniques about meditation but if you can't have
00:28:46
the restraint to not get on ubereats at 1am in the morning and order that KitKat
00:28:51
right because you don't have the discipline it doesn't matter I can know it but doing it is another thing right
00:28:57
my question is about discipline how how does one even if you're looking at your own life
00:29:02
where does one find that discipline you know often it's it's not the Nancy
00:29:08
Reagan strategy of just saying no right you know if you think about that that discipline
00:29:14
can't just involve saying no it has to involve having something to turn toward
00:29:19
and I think that's where we may be able to help each other find things so you
00:29:25
know if you if you don't want to order the KitKat on ubereats right what could
00:29:30
you do instead that that might help that might feel okay
00:29:37
um and I think it's that you know if if we think about Alcoholics Anonymous the one of the reasons why it works is
00:29:44
it doesn't just say don't drink it gives you a whole social network of
00:29:49
people to support you and it gives you activities to do and people to be with every hour of the day right and so what
00:29:57
it does is it gives you something to put in place of that drink that you want to reach for and even so it's really hard
00:30:04
and so I think what what we need to say is let's put in place some things to
00:30:11
help us manage so that we don't reach for the candy when we're trying to lose
00:30:16
weight right but when our body is just saying I gotta have it and one of those things which you write about and you've
00:30:22
seen I've seen in the study is as you said earlier is connections and relationships yeah how important can you
00:30:29
quantify to me the importance of having a romantic partner in your life
00:30:36
as it relates to health outcomes well unfortunately I can and because I I just want to say that you do not need a
00:30:43
romantic partner to get these benefits because some people have said to me well if I don't have a romantic partner
00:30:48
should I just walk in from the bus now and end it all right no no it's fine
00:30:54
it's fine not to have a romantic partner but there is research that shows that actually people who are married
00:31:01
uh men live 12 years longer on average if they're married and women live seven
00:31:06
years longer on average if they're married this is some studies in the United States
00:31:12
um that said it's it's not the marriage license it's about an intimate
00:31:17
connection and you can have an intimate connection with somebody who's not a romantic partner could be a good friend
00:31:25
could be a sibling could be a an adult child uh so many things you know so many
00:31:31
ways to have this what we think is that everybody needs at
00:31:36
least one person to whom they feel securely attached um our original participants in our
00:31:44
research at one point we asked them who could you call in the middle of the
00:31:49
night if you were sick or scared list everybody and most people could list several people that they could call but
00:31:57
some people couldn't list anyone and some of those people who couldn't list anyone had romantic partners
00:32:04
yeah so you can be lonely in a romantic partnership right you can be isolated
00:32:11
uh in an intimate relationship so all that is to say that it is really
00:32:17
the quality of a secure connection that we're talking about that we think everybody needs at least one of in the
00:32:24
world to get these kinds of benefits what is the physiological or spiritual
00:32:31
or Zen reason why um having a intimate relationship with
00:32:36
at least one individual is causing us to live longer yeah
00:32:41
so there are a lot of theories about this but the best theory for which there's some good data has to do with
00:32:48
stress the idea that good relationships actually help us manage stress and help
00:32:54
us manage negative emotion so you know stress happens all day long
00:33:00
right and like if I if I leave here in something upsetting happens my body will literally change my blood pressure will
00:33:06
go up my heart rate will increase I might start to sweat right that's normal
00:33:11
the body goes into something called fight or flight mode we're supposed to be able to do that because we want to
00:33:17
prepare to meet a challenge you know evolutionarily it's a good thing but
00:33:23
then when the stressor is removed the body's meant to return to equilibrium
00:33:28
you know so if I have something upsetting happen and I go home and complain to my wife I can literally feel
00:33:34
my body calm down you know if you have a friend you can call and you can talk about what was upsetting you can
00:33:40
literally feel that return to equilibrium what we know happens is that people who are lonely people who are
00:33:47
socially isolated don't have that and what we have been able to demonstrate is
00:33:52
that they stay in a kind of fight or flight mode so higher levels of stress
00:33:58
hormones circulating like cortisol higher levels of inflammation
00:34:04
and and that's how um we think we're pretty sure that
00:34:10
isolation loneliness or toxic relationships through stress can break down your
00:34:17
coronary arteries can break down your joints can make it more likely that you'll get type 2 diabetes so that's how
00:34:25
the same mechanism can affect lots of different body systems and stress is really intrinsically
00:34:31
linked to poor nutrition right so if I'm stressed I'm more likely to reach for the KitKat exactly exactly
00:34:38
you're more you're more likely to go to the casino or to place that bet or buy short-term decisions and not delay
00:34:45
gratification exactly maybe explains why
00:34:51
men live less long as well because they are less likely to
00:34:56
open up according to the data and be vulnerable and and therefore that stress is not
00:35:02
um reduced by the insulating effect of having supportive relationships that's right they are less likely to
00:35:09
open up in fact when they've done studies of how couples argue with each other they videotape them what they see
00:35:17
is that men are more likely to withdraw during an argument and women are more
00:35:23
likely to pursue to say look I want to talk about this and the man is likely to kind of clam up and literally sink back
00:35:30
in his chair and and so we feel attacked yeah exactly exactly exactly yeah yeah
00:35:39
yeah and so so it literally involves a process of learning sometimes for many
00:35:44
men to to learn to to say it's okay and one of the things we know is that men
00:35:50
often have an aversive physiologic reaction during arguments that make them
00:35:56
want to withdraw um so that so that the same kind of fight-or-flight mode for men make them
00:36:02
want to may make them wanna hang back and for women may make them
00:36:07
want to engage and that that's a little bit trickier the science is a little trickier in that
00:36:13
regard but there's some idea that that's part of what's what goes on for us gender wise I understand how men
00:36:22
might end up in that situation from maybe watching movies or I don't know stereotypes that are portrayed in media
00:36:28
of what a man is right but are we also inheriting that from our parents oh yes
00:36:33
absolutely we get socialized all the time um in fact there's some research
00:36:40
on adolescent boys and the research suggests that younger
00:36:45
boys have close friends and they they emotionally confide in each other and
00:36:51
then as those teenage boys get older they stop doing that and there's some idea that it's not
00:36:58
considered manly to do that so the boys stop doing it the girls continue to do
00:37:03
it because they've been socialized that it's okay that it's feminine it's perfectly reasonable for a girl and a
00:37:10
woman to confide in other people whereas manly men don't do that and that's
00:37:16
that's one of the stereotypes of the in the ways that we're raised that
00:37:21
hopefully is subsiding that there are more ways to feel like a
00:37:27
real boy a real man that include emotional engagement with other people what is the cost then on the other side
00:37:33
of the coin what is the cost of um of being lonely I was reading some studies I think maybe similar to the ones you
00:37:41
described about the gradual decay of connection that's going on in the world so we're getting
00:37:46
lonelier and lonelier as a as a species yes um have you seen that in your studies
00:37:51
over the years you've seen as you ask these participants how many people they've got to turn to in that moment of Crisis are you seeing a decay in the
00:37:58
amount of people they think they can call it to him in the morning we haven't seen that decay but there are
00:38:03
many other studies that have and in fact there's a sociologist named Robert
00:38:09
Putnam in at Harvard actually who wrote a book in the 80s called bowling alone
00:38:15
in which he studied what he called our investment in Social Capital like how
00:38:21
much do we join clubs go to churches and mosques and synagogues how much do we
00:38:26
invite people over to our homes and what he found was that starting in the 1950s
00:38:31
all of those indices dropped off we stopped investing in other people and it
00:38:37
seemed to coincide in the U.S with the introduction of Television into the American home and then he went back in
00:38:44
the early 2000s and did the same survey again all of those parameters had dropped off
00:38:50
further so what he's shown is that we're becoming much more isolated certainly in
00:38:55
the United States but also in the UK and in the developed World particularly and
00:39:01
it seems to have a lot to do with social Mobility it seems to have a lot to do with digital media and forms of
00:39:07
entertainment many different causes but the the net effect is that we are becoming more isolated and to your
00:39:14
question there's an investigator Julianne Holt lundstad who who studies
00:39:21
loneliness and what she has estimated is that being lonely is as dangerous to
00:39:29
your health as smoking half a pack of cigarettes a day or of being obese
00:39:35
and so what we know is that there are these very real concrete effects of
00:39:40
social isolation and loneliness that that damage us as we go through adult
00:39:45
life I've read that there was a I read a new book that there was a link without simers as well yes there is that the
00:39:51
brain declines sooner and the onset of Alzheimer's is earlier
00:39:58
in people who are lonely you're twice is more likely to develop I
00:40:03
believe that that was in the um marmalade trust study said you're twice as likely to develop Alzheimer's if
00:40:10
you're lonely it could be and we think that has to do with stimulation of brain Pathways so
00:40:16
the thing that that makes relationships a little scary and risky because people
00:40:22
are unpredictable it's also the thing that stimulates our brains so when I came in here you and I had never met so
00:40:30
I was going to talk to you I didn't know what you'd be like right I didn't know what the questions would be like but that's good for my brain because you've
00:40:36
got my brain running on a lot of different circuits and that's stimulating my brain circuits that's a
00:40:42
good thing you I think are preventing me from becoming demented earlier so thank
00:40:49
you very much you're welcome yeah are we are we good at understanding you
00:40:54
know I think I think back to that kid me sat in that room in Manchester just
00:40:59
absolutely focused on building a business and becoming a CEO and all of those things the monetary upside
00:41:05
I was particularly bad at if you'd asked me what the value of a relationship was I would have
00:41:11
I would have said I probably would have just pointed to the costs I would have said it's gonna have time and arguments
00:41:16
and yeah in the research that you've done are people good at understanding the value of a relationship
00:41:23
no they're not they're not um partly because relationships are the background I mean if you think about it
00:41:28
we've we've never known the world without relationships most of us most of
00:41:34
us do not live in solitude and so we've all there have always been people around which means we tend to take
00:41:41
relationships for granted and it's only when you pull back and you look at you
00:41:47
know thousands of lives that we saw these powerful effects the differences between people who had good
00:41:53
relationships and people who didn't most of us are you know it's like that old joke about the the two fish swimming
00:42:00
along and the older fish swims by and says hey boys how's the water and one fish turns to the other and says what's
00:42:07
water and you know we're in this swirl of relationships all the time that we
00:42:12
take for granted and so it's it's particularly difficult for us to understand that
00:42:18
this is something that we need to pay attention to nurture cultivate
00:42:24
throughout life what if I'm in a toxic relationship what if my partner is an [ __ ] is it do I stay because of these
00:42:31
physiological benefits insulation from stress or whatever it might be um or do I dump them and go out alone in
00:42:37
life well as with so many things one size does not fit all there's a huge amount
00:42:44
of discernment involved so if you think about it one question for a toxic relationship is how much is at stake how
00:42:52
much do I have invested so let's say you're married and you have children
00:42:57
together then the idea is to work really hard to see is there a way to salvage this
00:43:04
relationship if only for the children but also because the partnership could have
00:43:09
benefits and so what we what we would say is if there's a lot invested then we work
00:43:15
harder to see is there any way we can find ways to work out our differences
00:43:20
sometimes there isn't and those relationships need to be ended but but I
00:43:26
want to point out that most relationships of any consequence have conflict and so the real issue is not
00:43:33
are there conflicts the real issue is can we work out conflicts regularly in
00:43:38
ways that make us both feel okay about ourselves and about each other if we can't do that then those relationships
00:43:46
often need to be stepped away from when you looked at all of the relationships that are beneficial
00:43:52
um and are successful as a relationship what are the factors that made those relationships most successful if there
00:43:58
are any one of the things people talk about a lot is being able to be themselves to be
00:44:04
authentic meaning not to have to hide important aspects of who I am in a
00:44:10
relationship and it's not that we're bearing our souls all the time but but do I have to pretend that I'm someone
00:44:16
I'm not that's exhausting and depleting and so the idea is to be able to be
00:44:21
yourself in a relationship of any consequence um I think the other thing we find in
00:44:28
good relationships is that people allow each other to change over time I mean
00:44:34
we're all constantly changing we're all moving targets and so if we can allow
00:44:40
each other to change and maybe even celebrate that change the relationship is stable and is likely to last I mean I
00:44:47
think about you know my wife and I are about to celebrate our 37th anniversary
00:44:52
we are so different than we were 37 years ago I mean I I I had never heard
00:44:59
of Zen 37 years ago and now it's a big part of my life my wife had to figure out what do I do with this guy now who
00:45:05
practices Zen my wife has has developed in ways I never expected what we've had
00:45:11
to do is learn about each other as we change and and and accept those changes
00:45:17
and hopefully support each other in changing which I think mostly my wife and I have been able to do but it's part
00:45:24
of its luck I mean it's not like we're such wonderful people we've just been lucky to be able to support each other
00:45:30
in those changes but part of it is intentional and and so I think that the best relationships involve being able to
00:45:37
support each other in exploring new things taking risks um one of the things that inhibits all
00:45:44
of that is we have these expectations on our partner we have an expectation of the role they'll play of who they'll be
00:45:50
Etc how does that impact our chances of being successful in relationships yes I
00:45:56
mean I don't know if you remember this old Billy Joel song I love you just the way you are in which the lyrics are
00:46:01
saying don't ever change don't ever I just want you to be exactly the way you are right now and that's completely
00:46:08
unrealistic um and so we do we have these expectations of
00:46:13
who our partner is going to be parents have this of children I mean sometimes
00:46:19
sometimes I'll catch myself telling one of my sons who's in his 30s are you sure you don't want to wear a warmer coat
00:46:26
when you're going outside and he looks at me and says Dad you know I mean he lives on his own he's lived on his own
00:46:31
for years it's like come on but I have to get out of this mode of being his parent in this in this helicoptering way
00:46:39
right so we're always having to readjust our expectations of each other in order
00:46:45
to make relationships work if I was your one of your kids and I said Dad give me one piece of
00:46:50
relationship advice for how you and Mum have managed to stay together for those 37 odd years but just I just want one
00:46:57
piece of advice dad catch each other being good instead of
00:47:04
catching each other at doing the things that annoy you right right I'm really
00:47:09
good at noticing when my wife does things that annoy me and I I'm not good at remembering oh my gosh you know she
00:47:16
just made this great meal uh she just made sure that I was on time to this
00:47:21
meeting she just reminded me to take my medication you know it's like all these
00:47:27
things that oh my God if she weren't here I would be a mess right and so what I would say is
00:47:33
it's it's really practicing gratitude gratitude practice is really just flipping flipping our negatively biased
00:47:41
Minds on their heads and and essentially uh finding what's good what's going
00:47:47
right with the partnership and when we do that there's there's usually so much
00:47:52
to find that's that's not wrong that's right about the relationship and if you
00:47:57
do that you you find that I find that I'm happier in the relationship even though there are plenty of times when
00:48:03
it's boring it's predictable it's annoying as any long relationship is
00:48:11
there's so much to be grateful for the the other thing you talk about a lot in this book is about the use of our
00:48:17
time and how we spend our Time chapter five kind of goes back to what we're talking about a second ago about time management and discipline and all these
00:48:23
things um one of the alarming things I got from chapter five was just how much time we
00:48:29
waste unknowingly and I think maybe this is something that's quite pertinent your Zen practice but I think you said that we spend half
00:48:37
of our time in waking moments thinking about something other than the thing we're currently doing yes yes
00:48:44
and and that people that do that are more unhappy so people that spend more time ruminating about
00:48:50
um or with a Wandering mind as you called it are the most unhappy yes there's
00:48:56
actually good research on this from a different research group where they they would actually ping people throughout
00:49:02
the day at random times and say are you thinking about what's right in front of you now are you thinking about what's
00:49:08
current and that's where they get this uh data that says most people will
00:49:14
respond no I was thinking about something else the the future of the past whatever and and then they would
00:49:20
also ask at the same time how's your mood right now how happy are you and they found that the people who spent
00:49:26
more time thinking about what's right in front of them Were Far and Away happier so a Wandering
00:49:35
mind is a less happy mind in that chapter you talk about
00:49:40
multitasking as well we all think I mean I'm you know this is one of the problems I
00:49:45
had when I was writing my book as I like to play music yeah with that has lyrics in it so it'll be I don't know like r b
00:49:51
music or something yeah and I want to write at the same time and I eventually come to learn that my brain is incapable
00:49:58
of doing two things so it's not actually listening to the music um I can't listen to music and write at
00:50:03
the same time in chapter five you talk about this there's research that shows our brain is not capable of doing one
00:50:08
more more than one thing at a time that's right you're you're really switching back and forth really quickly and it's super inefficient it's
00:50:15
incredible it's an incredible waste of energy because your brain takes a moment to get back into gear in the thing
00:50:22
you've switched back to and then it's and then it's switching off again to something else and so what we this idea
00:50:29
of multitasking oh I can do so many things at once is a Fool's errand
00:50:34
basically Flow State kind of link to that yeah is
00:50:39
is it a thing it is a thing is it a good thing yeah it is a good thing prove it well I don't know if I can prove it but
00:50:46
uh well actually there's been some good work by uh chicks at me high he's a
00:50:52
that's his that's his name and I can't spell it it's this long name he's since
00:50:58
passed away but a very brilliant psychologist who did research on Flow States
00:51:03
you know so I'm a meditator and many people say to me when they find that out say oh I should meditate and I often say
00:51:11
no you shouldn't you should see if meditation feels good to you and if it does do it if it doesn't feel good find
00:51:19
another state a flow state if you will find another Pastime that for you makes
00:51:27
the time just fly by so my wife is not a meditator she has no
00:51:33
interest in it but she loves music and she's a an avid pianist she can sit for
00:51:39
an hour and just be transported playing the piano that's her Flow State for some
00:51:45
people it's skiing down a ski slope for some people it's working in a garden
00:51:50
for some people it's being on a soccer pitch it's you know um so what I My Hope for people is that
00:51:58
they find a flow state or maybe more than one and that they allow themselves
00:52:03
those experiences of flow from time to time where they're just in so in the
00:52:08
activity that time passes by effortlessly without noticing that's so
00:52:14
nice to hear I'm refreshing for people who have struggled with meditation which I imagine is most people lots of people
00:52:20
and you know even on this podcast when I have guests on they often talk about the um positive upside of doing meditative
00:52:25
practice there must be so many people that listen and go I've tried it I can't I can't it doesn't work for me but to
00:52:31
know that like your hobby that thing that just as you said that makes the time fly by is is an equally
00:52:38
effective potentially form of meditation exactly making music or painting or
00:52:44
whatever it might be running really nourishing I mean it and it gives us energy it gives us a sense of peace and
00:52:51
Equanimity to be in that kind of state quick one as you guys know we're lucky enough to have blue jeans by Verizon as
00:52:58
a sponsor of this podcast and for anyone that doesn't know blue jeans is an online video conferencing tool that allows you to have slick fast high
00:53:05
quality online meetings without all the glitches you might normally find with online meeting tools and they have a new
00:53:10
feature called Blue Jeans basic blue jeans basic is essentially a free version of their top quality video conferencing tool that means you get an
00:53:17
immersive video experience that is super high quality super easy and super
00:53:23
basically zero fast apart from all the incredible features like zero time limits on meeting calls it also comes with High Fidelity audio and video
00:53:29
including Dolby voice which is incredibly useful they also have Enterprise grade security so you can
00:53:35
collaborate with confidence it's so smooth that it's quite literally changing the game for myself and my team without compromising on quality to find
00:53:41
out more all you have to do is search bluejeans.com and let me know how you get on over the last couple of how long
00:53:48
maybe four months I've been changing my diet shall I say many of you have really
00:53:53
been paying attention to this podcast will know why I've sat here with some incredible Health experts and one of the
00:53:58
things that's really come through for me which has caused a big change in my life is the need for us to have these
00:54:03
superfoods these green Foods these vegetables and then a company I love so
00:54:09
much and a company I'm an investor in and then a company that sponsors this podcast and I'm on the board of recently
00:54:14
announced a new product which absolutely spoke to exactly where I was in my life and that is huel and they announced
00:54:21
Daily Greens daily greens is a product that contains 91 superfoods nutrients
00:54:27
and plant-based ingredients which helps me meet that dietary requirement with the convenience that hewell always
00:54:33
offers unfortunately it's only currently available in the US but I hope
00:54:38
pray that it'll be with you guys in the UK too so if you're in the US check it out it's an incredible product I've been
00:54:44
having it here in La for the last couple of weeks and it's a game changer on the subject of work
00:54:50
um what did you notice in the study about the type of work that leads to the most happiness I've really tried to distill I
00:54:57
think over the last couple of years what are the like fundamentals of what we need in work to be happy and obviously
00:55:03
because of this like real tectonic shift in how we work in digital screens and remote working things are changing and I
00:55:09
sometimes wonder if we're kind of sleepwalking into a a world of work that
00:55:15
we haven't properly considered just because we can do something doesn't mean necessarily we
00:55:20
should yes again that that path of least resistance you know that
00:55:25
um so we do know some things about this from um some good research coming out of
00:55:32
business schools they do a lot of this kind of research on on the conditions of work but also the Gallup organization
00:55:38
they did a survey of 15 million workers all over the world
00:55:44
all ages all cultures all ranks in the in a workplace
00:55:49
and their main question was do you have a best friend at work
00:55:55
only 30 percent of those 15 million workers had said yes I have a best
00:56:01
friend what that meant was I have someone who I talked to about my life about my personal life you know it might
00:56:07
be my my child is struggling with math or it could be anything you know but just to talk about what's going on in
00:56:14
your life those 30 percent then they they did all kinds of Assessments of those people and
00:56:21
talked to their bosses they were better workers they earned more money they were better with
00:56:27
customers they were less likely to leave their jobs for a better offer because they had people they wanted to show up
00:56:34
for every day and so what many uh leaders in the
00:56:39
workplace think of as a distraction socializing at work turns out to be a hugely powerful factor for increasing
00:56:47
productivity and increasing wellness and happiness at work those 70 of people who
00:56:54
said no I don't have a friend at work 11 out of 12 of those people said I'm
00:57:00
pretty much disengaged from my job 11 out of 12. 11 out of 12.
00:57:06
so maybe all of them nearly all of them whereas the 30 were much more engaged in
00:57:12
their jobs so if you have friends you're also more engaged in your work there's something about those
00:57:18
connections that is energizing and livening and it spills over into the
00:57:23
work itself it's so interesting I sat with our head of culture at um my marketing company flight story and we were talking about
00:57:29
the kpis that a head of culture and people should be tracking in the modern era um and one of the kpis which I had
00:57:37
in my last company and we've introduced into flight story is the amount of communities that exist outside of the
00:57:43
office so how many football team you know do we have a women's football team do we have
00:57:48
a reading club yes do we have a an are they active communities because it's really clear to me that like in terms of
00:57:55
retention satisfaction engagement in the work if people are bound by this
00:58:00
community in various different ways everything is going to be better exactly and you people don't necessarily think about that in the modern world of work
00:58:07
that you should be as an employer doing everything you can to create a
00:58:13
got a new flight story football club or a Diary of a CEO a reading club or
00:58:19
running club it will have huge positive impact for of course health and all of those things physical health and all those things but psychological Health
00:58:25
and Social Fitness as you call it in the book will go up um
00:58:31
as employees we don't think that's our business right right we don't think it's our business and it turns out to be so
00:58:37
much our business the other thing is we most of us spend more waking hours at
00:58:42
work than we spend doing anything else in our lives for most of our adult life I mean so if you're not going to
00:58:51
get the benefits of good connections with other people at work you are
00:58:56
missing a huge part of your life experience but it didn't used to need to be our
00:59:01
business so much either if you know what I mean like we used to have other things within Society like
00:59:08
even pubs have started shutting down because the economics don't work out in churches and these sort of social
00:59:13
institutions outside of the office and then you you look at what's going on with this kind of remote working
00:59:18
situation post pandemic where the the in social institution of the
00:59:25
office or working around people is also in Decline what's your view then on
00:59:31
remote working and what would your message be to a CEO or leader or employer
00:59:37
that's has this maybe potential social pressure coming from wherever to say
00:59:43
everyone should be able to work from home at all times that's a really good thing versus the research you've done that
00:59:50
shows the importance of in real life human connection yeah yeah
00:59:56
well we don't know enough yet about the difference between remote work and
01:00:02
in-person work we don't know for example what gets filtered out on Zoom you know
01:00:08
what what aspects of emotional communication get filtered out we don't know
01:00:14
um and so we're going to learn more in the next few years because people are studying this but then the question is
01:00:19
what do we do and and what do we know I think we well what we know right and what do we know well we we know that
01:00:26
some things are filtered out and if you think about it when when you were locked down and you were just on screens with people and then you saw people again in
01:00:33
person you I felt this upsurge of like whoa this is so great it's so good to
01:00:39
see you in real life right and so we know that there's some there's some truncation of the interpersonal
01:00:46
experience we just don't know all the elements of it um by contrast so I'm a psychiatrist and
01:00:53
I do Psychotherapy that's my specialty so every day I see people in talk therapy if you had told me I could do
01:01:01
talk therapy remotely that was meaningful I would have said you were crazy Well turns out you can and most of
01:01:07
my colleagues are doing it so there are aspects of remote work of remote connection that are much better than we
01:01:14
thought we're having to learn about this but to your question of what advice would I give to CEOs first I would say
01:01:23
that the culture of of fostering social connection needs to start with the CEO
01:01:30
it needs to start with leadership it can't just be something you delegate to your human resources department
01:01:37
um but then I would say also be intentional structure it and that can be structured
01:01:43
even on Zoom so the Surgeon General in the United States
01:01:48
that's the kind of head doctor he's like the the figurehead of Medicine of Public
01:01:53
Health Vivek Murthy is his name his platform has been emotional well-being
01:02:00
and decreasing loneliness particularly in the workplace so what Vivek does is
01:02:05
he has a staff meeting every week where the first five or ten minutes are devoted to one staff member
01:02:13
talking about something in their personal life that they'd like everybody else on the staff to know
01:02:18
and people love this meeting it's their favorite and it's their favorite part of the meeting right
01:02:25
they again to they get to know about each other I didn't realize you were into fencing or you were you were into
01:02:32
magic tricks or you know whatever it was you know people just talk about their lives
01:02:37
and so I think what we can do even with remote work is structure ways of knowing
01:02:44
each other better the ways that we used to be able to take for granted you know like you come to a meeting in an office
01:02:50
and you spend a moment or two chatting with the person you happen to sit next to and you might find out something
01:02:57
about their life how do you do that remotely how do you do that on zoom and
01:03:03
that's what I think we have to figure out in some way if we're going to have
01:03:08
any hope of having meaningful Connections in the workplace one of the things that has been
01:03:13
um really really positive about the shift we've seen in the worlds of work over the last two years it feels like
01:03:19
people have more control on autonomy and controlling autonomy is quite clearly a
01:03:24
predictor of Happiness right yes huge predictor in fact in the UK they did the
01:03:30
first study of this Michael Marmot you know who did this amazing study the
01:03:35
white hole studies where he found found that the people who had more control and more autonomy stayed healthier they were
01:03:42
under less stress and they stayed healthier that always really really stood out to
01:03:47
me that this physiological Health implications you're less likely to get things like heart disease if you feel
01:03:53
like you have a greater control over your life and work absolutely and people that are working in jobs that where they don't feel like they have autonomy have
01:04:00
physiological um consequences they're more likely to get disease
01:04:05
feels very very Stark well and it it goes back I think to the stress hypothesis that there's something about
01:04:11
having no autonomy being confined and constantly frustrated that keeps I
01:04:19
suspect keeps the body revved up in a kind of chronic stress mode that then breaks it down in your work as
01:04:27
a psychiatrist what is the like reoccurring thing that
01:04:33
us as humans just seem to struggle with on an ongoing basis you talked about at
01:04:38
the start it was um things to do with like you know permanence or our identity whatever else
01:04:44
are there other things I remember sitting here with Marissa peer um and she talked to me about how we like fundamentally live with the
01:04:51
patients she sees suffer with a feeling like they're not enough yeah that seems
01:04:56
to be a consistent theme for her what are the consistent themes in your in your practice as a psychiatrist well I
01:05:02
would say that sense of not being enough is is a very important very common one
01:05:08
um and and it it speaks to a sort of larger problem of self-criticism that many of us are quite
01:05:16
critical of ourselves for just any number of things all of us have a different set of things we're critical
01:05:23
about but a lot of what I work with with people is first showing them the
01:05:28
self-criticism because often it's like the air they breathe so I come into your practice
01:05:34
and what is a typical symptom of someone that might come and see you and why
01:05:40
would they have come to see you they might come with depression okay they might come with anxiety they might
01:05:47
come with a sense that uh life is meaningless and they're not getting any
01:05:53
joy in life they might have come because a spouse has died or a child has died
01:06:00
and they're not able to cope they are just finding life life isn't doesn't seem worth living anymore and what's
01:06:06
your process from there once they say their symptom I'm depressed let's say we talk yeah um so I'm I am a psychiatrist
01:06:13
but I tend not to reach for my prescription pad right away I do use medication when we need it but
01:06:21
first we talk and often if I can help somebody just to tell me what's wrong
01:06:29
um a lot of the symptoms will ease um and yeah I mean you can if somebody
01:06:36
is is a is if it's life and death I will often use medication right away to make sure somebody stays safe
01:06:43
but many times people will come and after two or three meetings they will feel less depressed because they've been
01:06:49
able to unburden themselves and to talk about
01:06:55
um something they feel is so horrible or so shameful and
01:07:01
I can help them understand it and often normalize it a lot of what I do and a
01:07:07
lot of what my research does is normalize things and say yeah this is part of Being Human
01:07:13
um and for many people you know a lot of times one of my teachers used a phrase
01:07:19
that I find so helpful he said we're always comparing our insides to other
01:07:25
people's outsides you know I'm always comparing the me that some mornings wakes up feeling kind
01:07:32
of lost and you know like I don't know what I'm doing with my life or down with the the
01:07:38
curated lives that we see on social media or the game faces that we put on for each other I mean you know we're you
01:07:45
and I are trying to look okay for each other you know I'm not we're not telling each other about our miseries right now
01:07:52
because we have a job to do we're doing this interview and that's fine that's good we need to do that but it can leave
01:07:58
each of us with the impression that other people are always fine they've got it figured out and I don't
01:08:04
so a lot of my work as a psychiatrist is to help people see oh you know no this
01:08:10
is actually part of being human that you know yes when you lose a loved one this
01:08:16
is a trauma and that yes many people feel like they don't want to get out of bed in the morning many people feel like
01:08:23
they can't go to work and let's talk about that let's talk about your loved one let's talk about what the
01:08:30
loss is like and when you really take people through that and take through people through what's hurting so much A
01:08:38
lot of times the pain will ease tremendously sometimes we use medication to help and
01:08:44
that that's good but many times it's not needed what are the factors of somebody that
01:08:52
can be helped from from all you've seen in your work what are what are the things you go well if they exhibit this
01:08:58
this and this then I think we can work with them and I'm saying this it's worth saying
01:09:03
because I want to build the bridge we all have people in our lives that we want to help you're right someone that's
01:09:08
struggling with something I'm not saying it's our job to help them or to be a fixer assignments and it taught me not to be
01:09:13
um but it I do find it useful to know
01:09:18
um that's kind of the question I'm trying to answer here is like that person we all have in our lives you know
01:09:23
maybe they're struggling with something maybe it's a recurring issue which ones of those can be helped what
01:09:30
are the cool factors the ones who can be helped are the ones who are willing to look inward so some
01:09:37
people will never go for help right they'll never want to be curious about
01:09:44
themselves often because it's scary at the deepest level who who are saying this is my story and
01:09:50
I'm sticking to it this is my world view and I am not going to inquire about my
01:09:57
own role in my difficulties right the people who can be helped are the
01:10:03
people who sooner or later get to a point where they say okay maybe I'm making some contribution
01:10:10
to my troubles and if so what is that responsibility there is some
01:10:15
responsibility some responsibility for some people it's humiliating it's impossible to even imagine that I am the
01:10:23
architect of some of my own misery actually many times a couple will come
01:10:28
for couples therapy and if one person says the only thing you have to do is
01:10:35
fix the other person you know that it's not going to work because the any couple
01:10:41
is has learned a set of dance steps they've developed and well you have to help the couple to do is look at their
01:10:48
dance steps and then modify them and it's always two ways it's always both people contributing to difficulties in
01:10:55
the couple just as both people contribute to what goes right it's the person who says no way am I any part of
01:11:03
the problem here that's the person who can't really be helped by these means is
01:11:09
the reason why sometimes we don't want to take responsibility because confronting
01:11:15
what the inward perspective might show us as you
01:11:21
said is really uncomfortable for a self-esteem which is already on the floor yes yes that's it I mean so I'm
01:11:27
playing defense I'm playing defense and the defense has to be so complete so
01:11:33
think about the people who are so self-aggrandizing and have to tell you
01:11:39
with every sentence how wonderful they are who can never apologize who can
01:11:44
never admit doing anything wrong those are often the people who feel the most vulnerable and who put up this this
01:11:51
rigid defense because to entertain that they're fallible that they can make a
01:11:56
mistake that they can do something wrong is is is threatens a total collapse of the self
01:12:04
and so those at many times are the people who just can't can't at all entertain that question of what could I
01:12:13
be doing that I might be able to change to make things better do you have a framework for how I've
01:12:19
heard you talk about how precious time is in your book and about attention do you have some kind of framework that you
01:12:25
use to decide how to invest your time like why to come why did you come here today versus being somewhere else you
01:12:32
know you live in Boston right yes so you've flown over to the the UK to Europe you've been doing some you know
01:12:38
appointments in Europe how are you deciding to deploy your time is there a framework
01:12:44
there's definitely a framework um for me it goes back to that vow of
01:12:51
service so this study I've been going for 85 years we've
01:12:56
published hundreds of scientific papers but we published them in academic
01:13:01
journals very technical no one reads those journals literally almost no one
01:13:07
and so what we found was that people were hungry for this kind of information
01:13:12
I mean the reason why my TED Talk went viral was because I was speaking about
01:13:17
things that we know from science that we haven't told anybody in the wider world so my mission I said look I don't have
01:13:25
that many years left in my career my mission now is going to be to bring
01:13:31
this science that we've worked so hard to develop and bring it to people in
01:13:36
ways that they can use to bring it in understandable form rather than highly technical geeky form which is what most
01:13:44
of my scientific papers are why not do something else I
01:13:51
because relieving suffering is one of the most meaningful things I can do with
01:13:57
my life and given that I'm not going to be remembered 50 years from now
01:14:02
uh easing some suffering right now is the best thing I can think of to do
01:14:09
what's it doing for you it makes me feel like my life has some purpose
01:14:15
um that and being with my family you know my my wife and my kids and my friends
01:14:21
those are because the the question that Zen keeps asking and making me ask is
01:14:27
well what's being human about I mean it's so unlikely to to be born
01:14:33
first of all right and then to live a life and so what why am I doing this and
01:14:39
so that's that's the answer I have given myself it's not by any means the right answer God knows it's not the only
01:14:46
answer it's just my answer and it's my answer for now is is life
01:14:53
is there a point to life in your view the point is what we make
01:14:58
of it there there is you know this is the evolving of the universe the
01:15:04
universe is constantly changing it's morphing and changing our species is gonna morph and change probably be
01:15:10
extinct right every species eventually becomes extinct so do we matter then if we're going to be extinct
01:15:17
I don't know we matter for the moment and we matter to each other I mean that's another reason why I've spent so
01:15:23
much of my adult life prioritizing relationships and studying relationships because I think what do what can we do
01:15:30
well we can matter to each other what have you gotten wrong and what do you calling I've gotten so much wrong
01:15:37
where do I start but okay okay top of the list top of the list is I've worried
01:15:44
too much about what other people thought so one of the things I've done is I've
01:15:49
for example I was in a job that was very prestigious when I was young I was director of a training program at a
01:15:57
prestigious program for for psychiatrists and I hated it I realized I and I was on
01:16:03
a track to to be the chair of a Psychiatry department at a fancy
01:16:08
academic institution and I realized I just hated the work I just hated being an administrator
01:16:14
to me it was like washing dishes the same problems came up over and over again and I would sit in these meetings
01:16:20
with people who were obviously very engaged and I'm glad they were engaged but I just didn't care about it and I
01:16:26
finally had to say to myself first and then to everybody else I don't want to do this this is not my
01:16:33
path and it took me longer than I wish it had but I'm glad I did it and I had
01:16:39
to learn that lesson in order to you know that was one of those badges of achievement right and so I've so for me
01:16:45
what I've gotten wrong is is thinking that the badges of achievement were going to be satisfying
01:16:52
and realizing that they're not I mean for me a conversation like this is actually satisfying I'd rather do this
01:17:01
um and I don't even care how many people listen to your podcast although I'm I'm sure it's a lot of people I understand
01:17:07
it is right but but I don't care what I really care about is having this conversation with you that that feels
01:17:14
like a really good use of my time I if I make you um if I made you prime minister
01:17:21
or president of the world no please no no we need you okay Robert um and I told you to
01:17:29
redesign Society in a way that would lead us all to having greater
01:17:35
levels of fulfillment and happiness what are some of the this the first things you would do in terms of the design of
01:17:41
the way Society operates at the moment what would you ban what would you introduce and enforce
01:17:50
what I would introduce is massive support for children and the people who
01:17:56
take care of children because it's the best long-term investment that actually they've done
01:18:02
some studies of this there's a James Heckman is a an economist at the
01:18:07
University of Chicago who who published a paper in science where he analyzed hundreds of studies of when we
01:18:14
invest in in an age group where do we get the biggest bang for the buck right
01:18:20
if we invest in zero to four years old or five to eight or all the way up what
01:18:27
what happens when people get into adulthood who's the most self-sufficient
01:18:33
you know who's the healthiest and what he found was that for every dollar we invest in age zero to four
01:18:39
that we get a huge payoff compared to every other age group that doesn't mean we shouldn't support people in other age
01:18:45
groups but it means if we could invest in children in young children and child care ah so much uh so much less poverty
01:18:55
substance abuse misery down 20 years 30 years down the line it's a long-term
01:19:00
investment and what about on an individual level so if you were to give me advice then on an
01:19:06
individual level maybe we'll put this in the frame of one of your children turning to you and saying again Dad I'm off to live my life what is the the way
01:19:13
you would recommend I design my life at a very fundamental level for it to be a fulfilling life what do I need to know
01:19:20
Robert dad invest in people really invest in all kinds of relationships
01:19:25
including casual peripheral ones uh which is what you've had to do following
01:19:31
your involvement in the study right yeah that intentionality of like pouring into
01:19:36
relationships even though it doesn't feel natural yeah yeah because so many benefits come back it's not you know
01:19:42
they see us through hard times they you know what they what they find for example is that
01:19:47
um your most peripheral relationships are the people who are most likely to find you your next job not your closest
01:19:55
friends right so even these peripheral relationships are of Great Value to us
01:20:01
and that happens to be because they're not in your social network they know many people who you've never heard of
01:20:06
and can connect you with people you would have no other connection with I'm definitely one of those people that
01:20:13
like has a bias towards being on my own being isolated just working on my own
01:20:20
and I'm not good at watering my peripheral relationships I'm like you
01:20:27
know five out of five at nurturing my like close relationships but outside of that it's like
01:20:33
it's like a concrete wall um I think a lot of people are like that I
01:20:39
think a lot of people really struggle I I don't know like struggle with especially again we talk to everyone about men struggling with
01:20:45
um social interaction because of their inability to be vulnerable and open
01:20:52
does it really matter like does it really matter for me that I you know I'm 30 years old now do I start hitting
01:20:58
people up that I've not spoken to in a couple of years and start asking them to go for coffee it doesn't matter if you
01:21:03
don't feel a lack how do I know if I feel a lack uh just check in with yourself okay I
01:21:09
mean seriously the reason I say that you know it gets to this kind of introverts versus extroverts spectrum that you know
01:21:17
some people have said well if you're shy does that mean you're screwed that you're you know you're not supposed to
01:21:23
be shy and no it doesn't what it means is that all of us are on on some kind of
01:21:29
spectrum temperamentally from shyness to extroversion and that some people don't
01:21:36
need many people in their life at all and in fact having a lot of people around is stressful other people get
01:21:42
their energy from lots of people and they want they want more people in their life so there is a way that you really
01:21:47
can check in and say what what do I need more of what do I have enough of maybe
01:21:54
what do I need less of right now and people thought a neurodivergent have
01:21:59
sometimes different social needs to those that are sort of neurotypical I
01:22:06
think the phrases um which goes to show that there's not a one-size-fits-all approach to I say this
01:22:12
in part because I was I've hit my friends up the other week and I said after reading your work and reflecting
01:22:19
over the years and the importance of social connections I was like why don't I try and get all of my friends to live
01:22:24
in the same place you know yeah worth a try some of them live one like of my five six best
01:22:29
friends one of them lives in Dubai one of them is traveling around the world with this baby from Tulum to wherever a
01:22:34
couple of them live up north in the UK if connection and social connections and social ties are the insulating for my
01:22:42
health if they are you know the number one cause of Happiness why don't we make an effort to try and organize our lives
01:22:49
as communities I hit them all up I said hey guys let's all move to London [ __ ]
01:22:54
off Steve and I'm joking no it was like you know life happens they get one of my work
01:23:00
over here and I yeah yeah well that's what you know we're seeing
01:23:05
this that that actually these social Fabrics are breaking down in more traditional societies where people did
01:23:10
stay in the place they were born so India people are really worried about
01:23:16
this in India now certainly in China where people are leaving their Villages so in a typical family
01:23:23
there would be the grandparents and maybe even great-grandparents and the
01:23:28
the parents and the children right and the grandparents job was to take care of
01:23:34
the grandkids while the parents went off and worked now what's happening is that people are leaving their villages to
01:23:39
seek Economic Opportunity elsewhere like in Dubai or in the big cities and in
01:23:45
China and and everybody's losing their social Fabric and their social role
01:23:50
and so I think there's a great deal of worry about this you're noticing this and you're saying wait I want I want to
01:23:55
knit this fabric back together I want my friends to come together and let's all hang out together and support each other
01:24:00
my wife and I are saying you know we should like like develop this old people's home as we get older and we
01:24:07
should get all of our friends who are getting old to get together and live together but it never kind of works out that way because everybody's kids are
01:24:13
moving to a different place and you know and so it's this question of how do we
01:24:19
how do we manage these social Fabrics that are fragile that once they're torn
01:24:24
it's really hard to put them back together but they provide so much benefit
01:24:30
are you hopeful you know are you your reaction then told me you weren't
01:24:35
hopeful you're right I wasn't in that moment you weren't I could say just the I wanted to tell you I was hopeful I
01:24:42
could see exactly that but I'm not um about the social fabric stuff I'm not
01:24:48
hopeful either I mean there is evidence that sometimes we need to feel the pain before we change but I
01:24:56
I think there is so much influence that is driving us towards
01:25:01
prioritizing other things and not the social fabric stuff that we've talked
01:25:06
about that will probably win out over the long term I think so I think so and the problem is you know
01:25:12
we evolved we think to be social animals that it was safer to be in groups and
01:25:18
that's why you know we passed on our genes more often if we hung together in groups and so the problem is that the
01:25:26
way we evolved it's a stressor to be alone it's a stressor to be more isolated but life is taking us in these
01:25:33
directions of Greater isolation so I'm not hopeful
01:25:39
um and you called me out on it you could see it flicker across my face and then I think I was trying to hide it
01:25:47
okay I'm gonna ask you the question the diary this is the question left by Our Last guest for you but then I am going
01:25:52
to ask for a call of optimism okay so the question left for you is
01:26:00
if you could go back to one era in Civilization what era would you pick why
01:26:07
and what would your job be oh interesting
01:26:15
I would go back to 9th century China
01:26:22
and I would be a Zen Monk
01:26:27
why because it it was the way to know about
01:26:32
life in a radically different way than uh Society was going at the time and I
01:26:38
would just like to know I just just because I've studied Koons and I've
01:26:44
studied ancient Zen literature and I'd just like to know what it really feel would feel like to be one of those monks
01:26:51
in one of those monasteries with a teacher and I can Envision it in
01:26:57
my mind but but I'd really love to experience it so if I could time travel that's where I'd go
01:27:03
if you could only say one last thing to everybody that was listening if this was maybe your last day on the earth and you
01:27:09
know you you've got this mission that you've been on for the last couple of decades to serve others and to help them
01:27:15
with their suffering if you only had 60 seconds to leave a message with them based on your work as
01:27:20
a Zen priest and a psychiatrist in the studies that you've done what would that message be
01:27:31
it would be make your default setting kindness
01:27:38
just go back to that whenever you have a choice whenever you're at a point where
01:27:43
you're trying to decide how to take the next step make that
01:27:49
your choice why it's what tiknot Han the zen teacher
01:27:55
used to call nourishing healthy seeds that if you nourish those seeds that's what grows if you nourish other seeds
01:28:03
like the seeds of power or dominance or anger that's what'll grow
01:28:11
foreign thank you thank you for giving me your time today thank you for doing this interview I know you've done many of
01:28:17
them but this one um was except this was really a wonderful conversation thank and you
01:28:22
know I really mean what I said where you talked about seeds there you your Ted Talk plan to the seed in my mind that
01:28:29
just grew slowly over time and it I was never able to shake it and it's funny
01:28:34
because I was I was a young man who would I think that was probably the thing that
01:28:39
had the biggest impact on me reassessing my priorities in life because you
01:28:45
provided irrefutable evidence from a huge group of people with the with the study that you're you're the director of
01:28:51
um over a long period of time that as I said at the start of this conversation just like stared in the face of the way
01:28:57
I was living my life and because of that because that seed was planted in my mind I gradually nothing happens overnight
01:29:05
once I think through confirmation bias once the seed's been planted you then find things as you go on that confirm
01:29:12
that seed and kind of water it and mean that it flourishes into being a tree or a plant or a flower and that's what
01:29:18
happened I realized that relationships and connections and investing there having a partner
01:29:24
um would be profoundly valuable and beneficial to my life and my work and
01:29:30
most importantly of all my North Star which is happiness and that just nudged my life in a slightly different direction but then think about it Robert
01:29:36
I then have this podcast I then write quotes I then speak to people on the internet and social media and on the Telly and that slight nudging and that
01:29:43
new Direction has made me nudge other people in that direction and that started with that video for me so thank
01:29:50
you because um you know that's I'm sure you know I'm sure the The Dominoes falling has caused
01:29:57
other people to be nudged slightly in that direction as well and that starts with you so thank you so much well what you've just told me is a real gift
01:30:04
because that's what I would hope that's you know when we talked about what what
01:30:10
my mission is right now it's it's hoping that this this kind of information and
01:30:16
these ideas move people to to to shape their lives differently and so it means
01:30:23
a lot thank you so much thank you
01:30:28
[Music]
01:30:48
foreign
