00:00:00
are you uncomfortable talking about this yeah I mean it's pretty wild right Mustafa suan the billionaire founder of
00:00:07
Google's AI technology he's played a key role in the development of AI from its
00:00:12
first critical steps in 2020 I moved to work on Google's chat box it was the
00:00:17
ultimate technology we can use them to turbocharge our knowledge unlike anything else why didn't they release it
00:00:23
we were nervous we were nervous every organization is going to race to get their hands on intelligence and that's
00:00:31
going to be incredibly destructive this technology can be used to identify cancerous tumors as it can to identify a
00:00:38
Target on the battlefield a tiny group of people who wish to cause harm are going to have access to tools that can
00:00:45
instantly destabilize our world that's the challenge how to stop something that
00:00:50
can cause harm or potentially kill that's where we need containment do you think that it is containable it has to
00:00:56
be possible why it must be possible why must it be because otherwise it contains
00:01:00
us yet you chose to build a company in this space why did you do that because I want to design an AI that on your side I
00:01:09
honestly think that if we succeed everything is a lot cheaper it's going to power New forms of transportation
00:01:15
reduce the cost of healthcare but what if we fail the really painful answer to that question is
00:01:23
that do you ever get sad about it yeah it's intense I think this is fascinating I looked at
00:01:33
the back end of our YouTube channel and it says that since this channel started 69.9% of you that watch it frequently
00:01:40
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00:01:47
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00:02:03
[Music] deal everything that's going on with artificial intelligence now and um this
00:02:14
new wave and all these terms like AGI and saw another term in your your book called ACI first time I'd heard that
00:02:20
term how do you feel about it emotionally if you had to incapsulate how you feel emotionally about what's
00:02:25
going on in this moment how would you do what words would you use I would say say in the past it would have been
00:02:35
petrified and I think that over time as you really think through the consequences and the pros and cons and
00:02:44
the trajectory that we're on you adapt and you understand that actually there
00:02:52
is something incredibly inevitable about this trajectory and that we have to wrap
00:02:59
our arms around it and guide it and control it as a collective species as a as humanity and I think the more you
00:03:08
realize how much influence we collectively can have over this outcome the more empowering it is because on the
00:03:17
face of it this is really going to be the tool that helps us tackle all the challenges that we're facing as a
00:03:24
species right we need to fix water desalination we need to grow food 100x cheaper than we currently do we need
00:03:33
renewable energy to be you know ubiquitous and everywhere in our lives we need to adapt to climate change
00:03:40
everywhere you look in the next 50 years we have to do more with less and there are very very
00:03:48
few proposals let alone practical solutions for how we get there training machines to help us as AIDS scientific
00:03:59
research Partners inventors creators is absolutely essential and so the upside is phenomenal it's enormous but AI isn't
00:04:10
just a thing it's not an inevitable whole its form isn't inevitable right
00:04:18
its form the exact way that it manifests and appears in our everyday lives and the way that it's governed and who it's
00:04:24
owned by and how it's trained that is a question that is up to us collectively
00:04:31
as a species to figure out over the next decade because if we don't Embrace that
00:04:36
challenge then it happens to us and that's really what I'm I have been wrestling with for 15 years of my career
00:04:44
is how to intervene in a way that this really does benefit everybody and those benefits far far outweigh the potential
00:04:54
risks at what stage were you petrified so I founded Deep Mind in 2010 and you know over the course of the
00:05:06
first few years our progress was fairly modest but quite quickly in sort of 2013
00:05:14
as the Deep learning Revolution began to take off I could see glimmers of very early versions of AIS
00:05:22
learning to do really clever things so for example one of our big initial achievements was to Teach an AI to play
00:05:31
the Atari games so remember Space Invaders and and pong where you batter a ball from left to right and we trained
00:05:39
this initial AI to purely look at the raw pixels screen by screen flickering or moving in front of the AI and then
00:05:48
control the actions up down left right shoot or not and it got so good at learning to play this simple game simply
00:05:57
through attaching a value between the reward like it was it was getting score and taking an action that it learned
00:06:06
some really clever strategies uh to play the game really well that Us games players and humans hadn't really even
00:06:14
noticed at least people in the office hadn't noticed it some professionals did
00:06:19
um and that was amazing to me because I was like wow this simple system that learns through a set of stimuli Plus a
00:06:29
reward to take some actions can actually discover many strategies clever tricks to play the game well that us humans
00:06:40
hadn't occurred to us right and that to me is both thrilling because it presents
00:06:47
the opportunity to invent new knowledge and Advance our civilization but of course in the same
00:06:55
measure is also petrifying was there a particular moment when you were you were at Deep Mind where you go
00:07:03
where you had that kind of Eureka Moment Like a day when something happened and and it caused
00:07:09
that that Epiphany I guess was it yeah it it it was actually a moment even before 2013 where I remember standing in
00:07:20
the office and watching a very early prototype of one of these image recognition image generation models that
00:07:29
had um was trained to generate new handwritten black and white digits so imagine 0er to 1 2 3 4 5 6 789 all in
00:07:39
different style of handwriting on a tiny grid of like 300 pixels by 300 pixels in
00:07:44
black and white and we were trying to train the AI to generate a new version of one of those digits a number seven in
00:07:53
a new handwriting sounds so simplistic today given the incredible photorealistic images that are being
00:08:00
generated right um and I just remember so clearly it it took sort of 10 or 15 seconds and it just resolved it the the
00:08:09
number appeared it went from complete Black to like slowly gray and then suddenly these were like white pixels
00:08:16
appeared out of the the black darkness and it revealed a number seven and that sounds so simplistic in hindsight but it
00:08:24
was amazing I was like wow the model kind of understands the representation of a seven well enough to generate a new
00:08:34
example of a number seven an image of a number seven you know and you roll forward 10 years and our predictions
00:08:43
were correct in fact it was quite predictable in hindsight the trajectory that we were on more compute plus vast
00:08:51
amounts of data has enabled us within a decade to go from predicting black and white digits generating new versions of
00:09:00
those images to now generating unbelievable photorealistic not just images but videos novel videos with a simple
00:09:13
natural language instruction or a prompt what has surprised you you said you referred to that as predictable but what
00:09:20
has surprised you about what's happened over the last decade so I think what was predictable to me
00:09:27
back then was the generation of images and of audio um because the structure of an image is locally contained so pixels
00:09:39
that are near one another create straight lines and edges and corners and then eventually they create eyebrows and
00:09:45
noses and eyes and faces and entire scenes and I could just intuitively in a very simplistic way I could get my head
00:09:52
around the fact that okay well we're predicting these number sevens you can imagine how you then can expand that out
00:09:58
to enre images maybe even to videos maybe you know to audio too you know what I said you know a couple seconds
00:10:06
ago is connected in phon space in the spectrogram but what was much more surprising to me was that those same
00:10:15
methods for Generation applied in the space of language you know language seems like such a different abstract
00:10:24
space of ideas when I say like the cat sat on the most people would probably predict Matt
00:10:32
right but it could be table car chair tree it could be Mountain Cloud I mean there's a gazillion possible next word
00:10:43
predictions and so the space is so much larger the ideas are so much more abstract I just couldn't wrap my
00:10:50
intuition around the idea that we would be able to create the incredible large language models that you see today
00:10:59
your chat gpts chat GPT Google B the Google's Bard inflection my new company has an AI
00:11:08
called Pi pi. a which stands for personal intelligence and it's as good as chat GPT but much more emotional and
00:11:15
empathetic and kind so it's just super surprising to me that just growing the
00:11:21
size of these large language models as we have done by 10x every single year for the last 10 years we've been able to
00:11:31
produce this and that that that's just an amazingly large number if you just
00:11:36
kind of pause for a moment to Grapple with the numbers here in 2013 when we trained the Atari AI that I mentioned to
00:11:44
you at Deep Mind that used two Peta flops of computation so peta peta stands for a million billion
00:11:56
calculations a flop is a calculation so 2 million billion right which is already an insane
00:12:04
number of calculations lost me at two it's totally crazy yeah just two of these units that are already really
00:12:09
large and every year since then we've 10x the number of calculations that can
00:12:15
be done such that today the biggest language model that we train at inflection uses 10 billion Peta flops so
00:12:26
10 billion million billion calculations I mean it's just unfathomably large number and what we've really observed is
00:12:35
that scaling these models by 10x every single year produces this magical experience of talking to an AI that
00:12:44
feels like you're talking to a human that is super knowledgeable and super smart there's so much that's happened in
00:12:52
public conversation around AI um and there's so many questions that I have I've I've been speaking to a few people
00:12:57
about artificial intelligence and understand it and I'm I think where I am right now is I feel quite
00:13:05
scared um but when I get scared I don't get it's not the type of scared that
00:13:09
makes me anxious it's not like an emotional scared it's a very logical scared it's my very logical brain hasn't
00:13:15
been able to figure out how the inevitable outcome that I've arrived at which is that humans become the less
00:13:22
dominant species on this planet um how that is to be avoided in any way the first chapter of your book The Coming
00:13:28
way wave is a is is a is titled appropriately to how I feel containment is not possible you you say in that
00:13:38
chapter the widespread emotional reaction I I was observing is something I've come to call the pessimism aversion
00:13:44
trap correct what is the pessimism aversion trap well so all of us being included feel
00:13:54
what you just described when you first get to grips with the idea of this new new coming wave it's scary it's
00:14:01
petrifying it's threatening is it going to take my job is my daughter or son
00:14:06
going to fall in love with it you know what does this mean what does it mean to be human in a world where there's these
00:14:12
other humanlike things that aren't human how do I make sense of that it's super
00:14:18
scary and a lot of people over the last few years I think things have changed in
00:14:24
the last six months I have to say but o over the last few years I would say the default reaction has been to avoid
00:14:33
the pessimism and the fear right to just kind of recoil from it and pretend that
00:14:39
it's like either not happening or that it's all going to work out to be Rosy
00:14:43
it's going to be fine we don't have to worry about it people often say well
00:14:46
we've always created new jobs we've never permanently displaced jobs we've
00:14:50
only ever seen new jobs be created unemployment is at an all-time low right so there's this default optimism bias
00:14:58
that we have and I think it's less about a need for optimism and more about a
00:15:02
fear of P pessimism and so that trap particularly in Elite circles means that often we aren't having the tough
00:15:11
conversations that we need to have in order to respond to the coming wave are you scared in part about having
00:15:20
those tough conversations because of how it might be received um not so much anymore so I've spent most of my career
00:15:30
trying to put those tough questions on the policy table right I've been raising
00:15:38
these questions the ethics of AI safety and questions of containment for as long
00:15:44
as I can remember with governments and civil societies and all the rest of it and so I've become used to talking about
00:15:49
that and you know I think it's essential that we have the honest conversation because we can't let
00:15:59
let it happen to us we have to openly talk about it is I mean this is a this is a big a
00:16:06
big question but as you sit here now do you think that it is containable because
00:16:14
I I I can't see how I can't see how it can be contained chapter 3 is the containment
00:16:21
problem or you give give the example of how Technologies are often invented for good reasons and for certain use cases
00:16:30
like the hammer you know which is used you know maybe to build something but it also can be used to kill people
00:16:36
um and you say in history we haven't been able to ban a technology ever really it has always found a way into
00:16:44
society um because of other societies have an incentive to have it even if we don't and then we need we need it like
00:16:51
the nuclear bomb because if they have it then we don't then we're at a disadvantage so are you optimistic
00:17:01
honestly I don't think an optimism or a pessimism frame is the right one because
00:17:09
the E both are equally biased in ways that I think distract us as I say in the book on the face of it it does look like
00:17:19
containment isn't possible we haven't contained or permanently banned a technology of this type in the past
00:17:27
there are some that we have done right so we banned cfc's for example because
00:17:32
they were producing a hole in the ozone layer we've banned certain weapons chemical and biological weapons for
00:17:39
example or blinding lasers Believe It or Not There are such things as lasers that
00:17:43
will instantly blind you you know so we have stepped back from the frontier in some cases but that's largely where
00:17:51
there's either cheaper or you know equally effective Alternatives that are quickly adopted in this case
00:17:59
these Technologies are Omni use so the same core technology can be used to identify you know cancerous tumors in
00:18:09
chest x-rays as it can to identify a Target on the battlefield for an aerial strike so that mixed use or Omni use is
00:18:18
going to drive the proliferation because there's huge commercial incentives because it's going to deliver a huge
00:18:23
benefit and do a lot of good and that's the challenge that we have to figure out
00:18:29
is how to stop something which on the face of it is so good but at the same time can be used in really bad ways too
00:18:37
do you think we will I do think we will so I think that nation states Remain the
00:18:46
backbone of our civilization we have chosen to concentrate power in a single Authority the nation state and we pay
00:18:58
our tax is and we've given the nation state a monopoly over the use of violence and now the nation state is
00:19:06
going to have to update itself quickly to be able to contain this technology because without
00:19:14
that kind of essentially oversight both of those of us who are making it but also crucially of the open
00:19:22
source then it will proliferate and it will spread but regulation is still a real tool and we we can use it and we
00:19:29
must what does what does the world look like in um let's say 30 years if that
00:19:35
doesn't happen in your view people because people the average person can't really gra grapple their
00:19:42
head around artificial intelligence when they think of it they think of like these large Lang large language models
00:19:47
that you can chat to and ask it about your homework that's like the average person's understanding of artificial
00:19:53
intelligence because that's all they've ever been exposed to of it you have a
00:19:56
different view because of the work you've spent the last decade doing so to try and give Dave who's I don't know an
00:20:04
Uber driver in Birmingham an idea who's listening to this right now what artificial intelligence intelligence is
00:20:10
and its potential capabilities if you know there's no there's no containment
00:20:16
what does it what does the world look like in 30 years so I think it's going to feel
00:20:22
largely like another human so think about the things that you can do not again in the physical world but in the
00:20:31
digital world 2050 I'm thinking of I'm in 2050 2050 we will have robots 2050 we
00:20:39
will definitely have robots I mean more than that 2050 we will have new biological beings as well because the
00:20:45
same trajectory that we've been on with hardware and software is also going to
00:20:52
apply to the platform of biology are you uncomfortable talking about this yeah I
00:20:58
mean it's pretty wild right don't know you crossed your arms and no I always I always look I always I
00:21:04
always use that as as a cue for someone when when a subject matter is uncomfortable and it's interesting
00:21:10
because I know you know so much more than me and about this and I know youve spent way more hours thinking off into
00:21:16
the future about the consequences of this I mean you've written a book about
00:21:19
it so P like you spent 10 years at the very deep mind is one of the the Pinnacle companies the Pioneers in this
00:21:24
whole Space so you know you know some stuff and it's funny because when I was
00:21:29
I watched an interview with Elon Musk and he was asked a question similar to this I know he speaks in certain certain
00:21:35
tone of voice but he said that he he's almost he's gotten to the point where he
00:21:38
thinks he's living in suspended disbelief where he thinks that if he spent too long thinking about it he
00:21:44
wouldn't understand the purpose of what he's doing right now and he he says that
00:21:48
it's more dangerous than nuclear weapons um and that it's too late too late to
00:21:51
stop it there this's one interview that's chilling and I was filming Dragons Den the other day and I showed
00:21:56
the dragons the clip I was said look what El musk said when he was asked about what his child what advice he
00:22:01
should give to his children in a world of in an an inevitable world of artificial intelligence it's the first
00:22:07
time I've seen Elon Musk stop for like 20 seconds and not know what to say stumble stumble stumble stumble
00:22:13
stumble and then conclude that he's living in suspended disbelief yeah I mean I think it's a
00:22:19
great phrase that is the moment we're in we have to it's what I said to you about
00:22:24
the pessimism verion trap and we have to confront the probab ility of seriously dark outcomes and we have to spend time
00:22:33
really thinking about those consequences because the competitive nature of companies and of nation states is going
00:22:42
to mean that every organization is going to race to get their hands on intelligence intelligence is going to be
00:22:51
a new form of of capital right just as there was a grab for land or there's a
00:22:56
grab for oil there's a grab for anything that enables you to do more with less
00:23:01
faster better smarter right and we can clearly see the predictable trajectory of the exponential improvements in these
00:23:09
Technologies and so we should expect that wherever there is power there's now
00:23:15
a new tool to amplify that power accelerate that power turbocharge it right and you know in 2050 if you ask me
00:23:25
to look out there I mean of of course it makes me Grimace that's why I was like
00:23:30
oh my God it's it really does feel like a new species and and that has to be brought
00:23:38
under control we cannot allow ourselves to be dislodged from our position as the
00:23:48
dominant species on this planet we cannot allow that you mentioned robots so these are sort of adjacent
00:23:55
technologies that Rising with artificial intelligence robots you mentioned um biological new biological
00:24:04
species give me some light on what you mean by that well so so far the dream of Robotics hasn't really come to fruition
00:24:14
right I mean we we still have the most we have now are sort of drones and little bit of self-driving
00:24:21
cars but that is broadly on the same trajectory as these other Technologies and I think that over for the next 30
00:24:29
Years you know we are going to have humanoid robotics we're going to have um
00:24:35
you know physical tools within our everyday system that we can rely on that will be
00:24:44
pretty good that would be pretty good to do many of the physical tasks and that's
00:24:48
a little bit further out because I think it you know there's a lot of tough problems there but it's still coming in
00:24:53
the same way and likewise with Biology you know we can now see sequence a genome for a millionth of the cost of
00:25:02
the first genome which took place in 2000 so 20ish years ago the cost has come down by a million times and we can
00:25:11
now increasingly synthesize that is create or manufacture new bits of DNA which obviously give rise to life in every
00:25:22
possible form and we're starting to engineer that DNA to either remove traits
00:25:29
uh or capabilities that we don't like or indeed to add new things that we want it
00:25:33
to do we want you know fruit to last longer or we want meat to have higher protein etc etc synthetic meat to have
00:25:42
higher protein levels and what's the implications of that potential implications I think the the darkest
00:25:54
scenario there is that people will experiment with pathogens engineered you know synthetic pathogens
00:26:03
that might end up accidentally or intentionally being more transmissible I.E they they can spread
00:26:10
faster um or more lethal I.E you know they cause more harm or potentially kill like a pandemic like a pandemic um
00:26:21
and that's where we need containment right we have to limit access to the tool TOs and the knowhow to carry out
00:26:31
that kind of experimentation so one framework of thinking about this with respect to making containment possible
00:26:39
is that we really are experimenting with dangerous materials and Anthrax is not something
00:26:47
that can be bought over the Internet that can be freely experimented with and likewise the very best of these tools in
00:26:55
a few years time are going to be capable of creating you know new synthetic um pandemic pathogens and so we have to
00:27:05
restrict access to those things that means restricting access to the compute it means restricting access to the
00:27:11
software that runs the models to the cloud environments that provide apis provide you access to experiment with
00:27:18
those things um and of course on the biology side it means restricting access to some of the substances and people
00:27:24
aren't going to like this people are not going to like that claim because it
00:27:30
means that those who want to do good with those tools those who want to create a start up the small guy the
00:27:38
little developer that struggles to comply with all the regulations they're going to be pissed off understandably
00:27:44
right but that is the age we're in deal with it like we have to confront that
00:27:51
reality that means that we have to approach this with the precautionary principle right never before in the
00:27:58
invention of a technology or in the creation of a regulation have we proactively said we need to go slowly we
00:28:05
need to make sure that this first does no harm the precautionary principle and that is just an unprecedented moment no
00:28:13
other Technology's done that right because I think we collectively in the industry those of us who are closest to
00:28:20
the work can see a place in 5 years or 10 years where it could get out of control and we have to get on top of it
00:28:27
now now and it's better to forgo like that is give up some of those potential
00:28:33
upsides or benefits until we can be more sure that it can be contained that it can be controlled that it always serves
00:28:41
our Collective interests and I I think about that so I think about what you've
00:28:45
just said there about being able to create these pathogens these diseases and viruses Etc that you know could
00:28:51
become weapons or whatever else but with artificial intelligence and the power of
00:28:55
that intelligence with these um pathogens you could theoretically ask one of these systems to create a virus
00:29:06
that a very deadly virus um you could ask the artificial intelligence to create a very deadly
00:29:12
virus that has certain properties um maybe even that mutates over time in a certain way so it only
00:29:19
kills a certain amount of people kind of like a nuclear bomb of of viruses that you could just pop hit an enemy with now
00:29:26
if I'm if I hear that and I go okay that's powerful I would like one of those you know there might be an
00:29:31
adversary out there that goes I would like one of those just in case America get out of hand and America's thinking
00:29:36
you know I want one of those in case Russia gets out of hand and so okay you might take a precautionary approach in
00:29:43
the United States but that's only going to put you on the back foot when China
00:29:47
or Russia or one of your adversaries accelerates forward in that in that path and this was the same with the the
00:29:52
nuclear bomb and you know you nailed it I mean that is is the race condition we refer to that as the race condition the
00:30:03
idea that if I don't do it the other party is going to do it and therefore I
00:30:10
must do it but the problem with that is that it creates a self-fulfilling prophecy so the default there is that we
00:30:16
all end up doing it and that can't be right because there is a opportunity for
00:30:23
massive cooperation here there's a shared that is between us and China and every other quote unquote them or they
00:30:31
or enemy that we want to create we've all got a shared interest in advancing
00:30:39
the collective health and well-being of humans and Humanity how well have we done at promoting shared interest well
00:30:47
in the development of Technologies over the years even at like a corporate level
00:30:51
even you know you know the nuclear nonproliferation treaty has been reasonably successful there's only nine
00:30:58
nuclear states in the world today we've stopped many like three countries actually gave up nuclear weapons because
00:31:05
we incentivize them with sanctions and threats and economic rewards um small groups have tried to get access to
00:31:12
nuclear weapons and so far have largely failed it's expensive though right and
00:31:16
hard to like uranium as a as a chemical to keep it stable and to to buy it and to house it I mean I couldn't just put
00:31:22
it in the shed you certainly couldn't put it in a shed you can't download
00:31:26
uranium 235 off the Internet it's not available open source that is totally true so it's got different
00:31:32
characteristics for sure but a kid in Russia could you know in his bedroom could download something onto his
00:31:38
computer that's incredibly harmful in the artificial intelligence Department
00:31:44
right I think that that will be possible at some point in the next five years it's true because there's a weird Trend
00:31:51
that's going on here on the one hand You've Got The Cutting Edge AI models
00:31:58
that are built by Google and open Ai and my company inflection and they cost hundreds of millions of dollars and
00:32:05
there's only a few of them but on the other hand the what was cutting edge a
00:32:10
few years ago is now open source today so gpt3 which came out in the summer of 2020 is now reproduced as an open-
00:32:22
Source model so the code and the weights of the model the design of the model and
00:32:26
the actual implementation code is completely freely available on the web and it's tiny it's like 60 times or 60
00:32:36
70 times smaller than the original model which means that it's cheaper to use and
00:32:41
cheaper to run and that's as you know we've said earlier like that's the
00:32:45
natural trajectory of technologies that become useful they get more efficient they get cheaper and they spread further
00:32:52
and so that's the containment challenge that's really the essence of what I'm
00:32:57
sort of trying to raise in my book is to frame the challenge of the next 30 to 50
00:33:03
years as around containment um and around confronting proliferation do you believe because
00:33:11
we're both going to be alive unless this you know there some robot kills us but
00:33:14
we're both going to be alive in 30 years time I hope so maybe the podcast will
00:33:19
still be going unless AI is now taking my job it's very possible so I'm I'm going
00:33:26
to sit you here and you know when you're you you'll be what 60 68 years old I'll
00:33:30
be 60 um and I'll say at that point when we have that conversation do you think we would have
00:33:41
been successful in containment at a global level I think we have to be I can't even think that we're not why
00:33:59
because I'm fundamentally a humanist and I think that we have to make a choice to
00:34:05
put our species first and I think that that's what we have to be defending for the next 50 years
00:34:15
that's what we have to defend because look it it's it's certainly possible
00:34:21
that we invent these agis in such a way that they are always going to be provably um
00:34:31
subservient uh to humans and take instructions you know from their human controller every single time but enough
00:34:41
of us think that we can't be sure about that that I don't think we should take
00:34:47
the gamble basically so that's why I think that we should focus on containment and non
00:34:54
proliferation because some people if they do have access of the technology will want to take those risks and they
00:35:00
will just want to see like what's on the other side of the door you know and they
00:35:05
might end up opening Pandora's Box and that's a decision that affects all of us
00:35:10
and that's the challenge of the networked age you know we live in this globalized world and we use these words
00:35:15
like globalization and we you sort of forget what globalization means this is what globalization is this is what a
00:35:21
networked world is it means that someone taking one small action can suddenly spread
00:35:28
everywhere instantly regardless of their intentions when they took the action it
00:35:33
maybe you know unintentional like you say may be that they're never they weren't ever meaning to do
00:35:41
harm well I think I asked you when I said it you 30 years time you said that there will be like human level
00:35:48
intelligence you'll be interacting with you know this new species but the species for me to think the the species
00:35:54
will want to interact with me is feels like wishful thinking because what will I be to them you know like I've got a
00:36:02
French Bulldog Pablo and I can't imagine our IQ is that far apart like like you
00:36:08
know in relative terms my the IQ between me and my dog Pablo I can't imagine
00:36:12
that's that far apart even when I think about is it like the orangutang where we
00:36:16
only have like 1% difference in DNA or something crazy and yet they throw their poop around and I'm sat here
00:36:22
broadcasting around the world there's quite a difference in that 1% you know
00:36:27
and then I think about this new species where as you write in your book in chapter
00:36:33
4 there seems to be no upper limit to ai's potential intelligence why would such an
00:36:39
intelligence want to interact with me well it depends how you design it so I think that our goal one of the
00:36:48
challenges of containment is to design AIS that we want to interact with that want to interact with us right if you
00:36:58
set an objective function for an AI a goal for an AI by its design which you know inherently disregards or
00:37:07
disrespects you as a human and your goals then it's going to wander off and do a lot of strange things what if it
00:37:12
has kids and the kids are you know what I mean what if it replicates in a way where because because I've I've heard
00:37:19
this this conversation around like it depends how we design it but you know I think about
00:37:28
it's kind of like if I have a kid and the kid grows up to be a thousand times
00:37:32
more intelligent than me to think that I could have any influence on it on it when it's a thinking
00:37:39
sentient developing species again feels like I'm overestimating my version of
00:37:46
intelligence and importance and significance in the face of something that is incomprehensibly like a even a
00:37:52
hundred times more intelligent than me and the speed of its computation is a thousand times what my
00:37:58
the meat in my skull can do yeah like how how how is it gonna how how do I know it's going to respect me or care
00:38:04
about me or understand you know that I me you know I think that comes back down to the
00:38:10
containment challenge I think that if we can't be confident that it's going to
00:38:15
respect you and understand you and work for you and us as a species overall then
00:38:24
that's where we have to adopt the precautionary principle I don't think we
00:38:28
should be taking those kinds of risks in experimentation and design and now I'm
00:38:33
not saying it's possible to design an AI that doesn't have those self-improvement
00:38:41
capabilities in the limit in like 30 or 50 years I think it you know that's kind
00:38:45
of what I was saying is like it seems likely that if you have one like that it's going to take advantage of infinite
00:38:52
amounts of data and infinite amounts of computation and it's going to kind of
00:38:55
outstrip our ability to act and so I think we have to step back from that precipice that's what the containment
00:39:04
problem is is that it's it's actually saying no sometimes it's saying no and
00:39:11
that's a different sort of muscle that we've never really exercised as a
00:39:16
civilization and and that's obviously why containment appears not to be possible because we've never done it
00:39:22
before we've never done it before and every inch of our you know Comm and politics and our war and all of our
00:39:30
instincts are just like Clash compete Clash compete prophit profit grow beat exactly dominate you know fear them be
00:39:39
paranoid like now all this nonsense about like China being this new evil like it how does that slip into our
00:39:46
culture how are we suddenly all shifted from thinking it's the the the Muslim
00:39:50
terrorists about to blow us all up to now it's the Chinese who are about to you know blow up Kansas it's just like
00:39:57
what are we talking about that like we really have to pair back the paranoia and the fear and the othering um because
00:40:06
those are the incentive dynamics that are going to drive us to you know cause self harm to humanity thinking the worst
00:40:14
in each other the the there's couple of key moments when in my understanding of
00:40:18
artificial intelligence that have been kind of Paradigm Paradigm shifts for me because I think like many people I
00:40:23
thought of artificial intelligence as you know like a like a child I was Raising and I would program I would code
00:40:31
it to do certain things so I would code it to play chess and I would tell it the
00:40:36
moves that are conducive with being successful in chess and then I remember watching that like Alpha go documentary
00:40:43
right which I think was deep deep mind wasn't it that was us yeah you guys so
00:40:45
you programmed this this um artificial intelligence to play the game go which is kind of like just think of it kind of
00:40:50
like a chess or a black am or whatever and it eventually just beats the best player in the world of all time and it
00:40:55
and the way it learned how to beat the best player in the world of all time the world champion who was by the way
00:41:00
depressed when he got beat um was just by playing itself right and then there's
00:41:06
this moment I think in is it game four or something where right it does this move that no one could have predicted a
00:41:12
move that seemingly makes absolutely no sense right in those moments where no one
00:41:20
trained it to do that and it did something unexpected Beyond where humans are trying to figure it out in hindsight
00:41:26
this is where I go how do you how do you train it if it's doing things we didn't
00:41:30
anticipate right like how do you control it when it's doing things that humans
00:41:34
couldn't anticipate it doing where we're looking at that move it's called like
00:41:37
move 37 or something correct yeah is it move 37 it is look at my intelligence F nice work yeah I'm I'm going to survive
00:41:43
a bit longer than I thought it's like move 37 you at least another decade in
00:41:48
you um move 37 does this crazy thing and you see everybody like lean in and go why has it done that and it turns out to
00:41:55
be brilliant that humans couldn't couldn't forecast the commentator actually thought it was a mistake yeah
00:42:00
he was a pro and he was like this this definitely a mistake you know it's the
00:42:03
the alpha go lost the game but it was so far ahead of us that it knew something we didn't right right that's when that's
00:42:10
when I lost hope in this whole idea of like oh train it to do what we want like a dog like sit pour roll over right well
00:42:18
the real challenge is that we actually want it to do those things like when it discovers a new strategy
00:42:27
or it invents a new idea or it helps us find like you know a cure for some disease like that's why we're building
00:42:34
it right because we're reaching the limits of what we as you know humans can
00:42:41
invent and solve right especially with what we're facing of you know in terms
00:42:45
of population growth over the next 30 Years and how climate change is going to affect that and so on like we really
00:42:52
want these tools to turbocharge us right and yet like it's that creativity and
00:42:57
that invention which obviously makes us also feel well maybe it it is really going to
00:43:05
do things that we don't like for sure right so interesting how do you contend with all
00:43:13
of this how do you contend with the the clearup side and then you must like Elon
00:43:19
must be completely aware of the the horrifying existential risk at the same time and and you're building a big
00:43:28
company in this space which I think is valued at 4 billion now inflection AI which has got this its own model called
00:43:36
Pi so you're building in this space you understand the incentives at both a nation state level and a corporate level
00:43:43
that we're we're going to keep planing forward even if the US stops there's
00:43:46
going to be some other country that sees that as a huge Advantage their economy will swell because they did if this
00:43:51
company stops then this one's going to get a get a huge advantage and their shareholders are you know
00:43:58
everyone's investing in AI full steam ahead but you feel you can see this huge
00:44:03
existential risk is it suspended is that the pathw suspended disbelief I mean just to kind of like
00:44:09
just know that it's I feel like I know that it's going to happen no one's been
00:44:13
able to tell me otherwise but just don't think too much about it and you'll be okay I think you
00:44:21
can't give up right I think that in some ways you're realization exactly what
00:44:28
you've just described like weighing up two conflicting and horrible truths about what is likely to happen those
00:44:37
contradictions that is a kind of honesty and a wisdom I think that we need all collectively to realize because the only
00:44:47
path through this is to be straight up and embrace you know the risks and embrace the default trajectory of all
00:44:56
these competing incentives driving forward to kind of make this feel like inevitable and if you put the blinkers
00:45:03
on and you kind of just ignore it or if you just be super Rosy and it's all going to be all right and if you say
00:45:07
that we've always figured it out anyway then you we're not going to get the
00:45:11
energy and the dynamism and engagement from everybody to try to figure this out and that's what gives me like reason to
00:45:19
be hopeful because I think that we make progress by getting everybody paying attention to this it isn't going to be
00:45:28
about those who are currently the AI scientists or those who are the technologists you know like me or the
00:45:34
Venture capitalists or just the politicians like all of those people no one's got answers so that's what we have
00:45:40
to confront there are no obvious answers to this profound question and I've basically written the book to say prove
00:45:51
that I'm wrong you know containment must be possible and I it must be it must be
00:45:59
possible it has to be possible it has to be you want it to be I I desperately want it to be yeah why must it be
00:46:08
because otherwise I think you're in the camp of believing that this is the inevitable evolution of humans the
00:46:17
transhuman kind of view you know some people would argue like what is okay let's part let's let's stretch the
00:46:24
timelines out okay so let's not talk about 30 years let's talk about 200
00:46:31
years like what is this going to look like in 2200 you tell me you're smarter than
00:46:40
me I mean it's mindblowing it's mind-blowing we'll have quantum computers by then what's a quantum
00:46:48
computer a quantum computer is a completely different type of computing architecture which in simple
00:46:57
terms basically allows you to those those calculations that I described at the beginning billions and
00:47:05
billions of flops those billions of flops can be done in a single computation so everything that you see
00:47:13
in the digital world today relies on computers processing information and and the speed of that processing is a
00:47:21
friction it kind of slows things down right you remember back in the day old School modems 56k modem the dialup sound
00:47:30
and the image pixel loading like pixel by pixel that was because the computers were slow and we're getting to a point
00:47:37
now where the computers are getting faster and faster and faster and Quantum Computing is like a whole new leap like
00:47:44
way way way Beyond where we where we currently are and so by analogy how would I understand that so like if my
00:47:52
I've got my dialup modem over here and then Quantum Computing over here right what's the how do I what's the
00:48:00
difference well I don't know what it's really difficult to exp a billion times
00:48:04
faster oh it's it's it's like it's like billions of billions times faster it's
00:48:08
it's it's much more than that I mean one way of think about it is like a floppy disc which I guess most
00:48:16
people remember 1.4 megabytes a physical thing back in the day in 1960 or so that was basically an entire
00:48:27
pallets worth of computer that was moved around by a forklift truck right which is insane today you know you have
00:48:37
billions and billions of times that floppy disc in your smartphone in your pocket tomorrow you're going to have
00:48:47
billions and billions of smartphones in minuscule wearable devices there'll be
00:48:54
cheap fridge magnets that you know are constantly on everywhere sensing all the time monitoring processing analyzing
00:49:02
improving optimizing you know and they'll be super cheap so it's super unclear what do you
00:49:10
do with all of that knowledge and information I mean it's ultimately knowledge creates value when you know
00:49:18
the relationship between things you can improve them you know make it more efficient and so more data is what has
00:49:26
enabled us to build all the value of you know online in the last 25 years and so
00:49:32
what does that look like in 150 years I can't really even imagine to be honest
00:49:36
with you it's very hard to say I don't think everybody is going to be working why would we yeah what we
00:49:45
wouldn't be working in that kind of environment I mean look the other trajectory to add to this is the cost of
00:49:53
energy production you know AI if it really helps us solve battery storage which is the missing piece I
00:50:05
think to really tackle climate change then we will be able to Source basically source and store infinite energy from
00:50:15
the Sun and I think in 20 or so years time 20 30 years time that is going to be a cheap and widely available if not
00:50:23
completely freely available resource and if you think about it everything in life has the cost of energy built into
00:50:32
its production value and so if you strip that out everything is likely to get a lot cheaper we'll be able to desalinate
00:50:41
water we'll be able to grow crops much much cheaper we'll be able to grow much
00:50:46
higher quality food right it's going to power New forms of transportation it's
00:50:50
going to reduce the cost of drug production and Healthcare right so all of those gains
00:50:57
obviously there'll be a huge commercial incentive to drive the production of
00:51:00
those gains but the cost of producing them is going to go through the floor I think that's one key thing that a lot of
00:51:05
people don't realize that is a reason to be hugely hopeful and optimistic about
00:51:09
the future everything is going to get radically cheaper in 30 to 50 years it's a 200 years time we have no
00:51:20
idea what the world looks like it's uh this goes back to the point about being
00:51:24
is it did you say transhumanist right what does that mean transhumanism I mean it's a group of
00:51:32
people who basically believe that you that that humans and our soul and our being will one day transcend or
00:51:44
move beyond our biological substrate okay so our physical body our brain our biology is just an enabler for your
00:51:55
intelligence and who you are as a person and there's a group of kind of crack
00:52:03
Bots basically I think who think that we're going to be able to upload ourselves to a silicon substrate right a
00:52:13
computer that can hold the essence of what it means to be Stephen so you in 200 in 20 uh in in
00:52:22
2200 will could well still be You by their reasoning but you'll live on a server somewhere
00:52:30
why are they wrong I think about all these adjacent Technologies like biological um biological advancements
00:52:36
did you call it like biosynthesis or something was yeah synthetic biology syn synthetic biology um I think about the
00:52:44
nanotechnology development right think about Quantum Computing the the progress in artificial intelligence everything
00:52:50
becoming cheaper and I think why why are they wrong it's hard to say precisely
00:52:57
but broadly speaking I haven't seen any evidence yet that we're able to extract
00:53:03
the essence of a being from a brain right it's that that that that kind of dualism that you know there is a mind
00:53:11
and a body and a spirit that is a I I don't think I don't see much evidence
00:53:18
for that even in Neuroscience um that actually it's much more one and the same
00:53:22
so I don't think you know you're going to be able to emulate the entire brain
00:53:26
so their thesis is that well some of them cryogenically store their brain after death Jesus so they they have it
00:53:33
they' they they wear these like you know how you have like an organ donor tag or
00:53:37
whatever so they have a cryogenically freeze me when I die tag and so they there's like a special like ambulance
00:53:45
services that will come pick you up because obviously you need to do it really quickly the moment you die you
00:53:49
need to get put into a cryogenic freezer to preserve your you know brain forever
00:53:55
I personally think this is this is is nuts but you know their belief is that you'll then be able to reboot that
00:54:01
biological brain and then transfer you over um it it doesn't seem plausible to me
00:54:08
when you said at the start of this this little topic here that you it must be possible to contain it said it must be
00:54:15
possible um the the reason why I I struggle with that is because in chapter 7 you say line in your book that AI is
00:54:22
more autonomous than any other technology in history for centuries the idea that
00:54:26
technology is is somehow running out of control a self-directed and self-propelling force beyond the Realms
00:54:32
of human agency remained a fiction not anym and this idea of autonomous technology that
00:54:43
is acting uninstructed um and is intelligent and then you say we must be able to contain
00:54:52
it it's kind of like a massive dog like a big rottweiler yeah that is you know a thousand times bigger
00:54:59
than me and me looking up at it and going I'm going to get take you for a walk y yeah and then it's just looking
00:55:05
down at me and just stepping over me or stepping on me well that's actually a good example
00:55:12
because we have actually contained Rottweilers before we've contained gorillas and you know tigers and
00:55:20
crocodiles and pandemic pathogens and nuclear weapons and so you know it's easy to be you know a hater on what
00:55:29
we've achieved but this is the most peaceful moment in the history of our species this is a moment when our
00:55:36
biggest problem is that people eat too much think about that we've spent our
00:55:42
entire evolutionary period running around looking for food and trying to stop you know our enemies
00:55:49
throwing rocks at us and we've had this incredible period of 500 years where you know each year things have
00:56:00
broadly well maybe each each Century let's say there's been a few ups and
00:56:04
downs but things have broadly got better and we're on a trajectory for you know
00:56:10
lifespans to increase and quality of life to increase and health and well-being to improve and I think that's
00:56:17
because in many ways we have succeeded in containing forces that appear to be more powerful than ourselves it just
00:56:25
requires unbelievable creativity and adaptation it requires compromise and it requires an a new tone right a much more
00:56:37
humble tone to governance and politics and and how we run our world not this kind of like hyper aggressive
00:56:45
adversarial paranoia tone that we talked about previously but one that is like much more wise than that much more
00:56:53
accepting that we are unleashing this force that does have that that potential to be the Rott riler that you described
00:56:59
but that we must contain that as our number one priority that has to be the thing that we focus on because otherwise
00:57:06
it contains us i' I've been thinking a lot recently about cyber security as well just
00:57:11
broadly on an individual level in a world where there are these kinds of tools which seems to be quite close um
00:57:18
large language models brings up this whole new question about cyber security and cyber safety and you know in a world
00:57:25
where there's these ability to generate audio and language and videos that seem
00:57:31
to be real um what can we trust and you know I was watching a video of a of a of
00:57:37
a young girl whose grandmother was called up by a voice that was made to sound like her son saying he'd been in a
00:57:44
car accident and asking for money and her nearly sending the money or this whole you know because this really
00:57:50
brings into Focus that we our lives are build on built on trust trusting the things we see here in
00:57:57
watch and in in and now we're at feels like a a a moment where we're no longer
00:58:04
going to be able to trust what we see on the internet on the phone what what what advice do you do we
00:58:11
you have for people who were worried about this so skepticism I think is healthy and
00:58:20
necessary and I think that we're going to need it um even more than than we ever did right and so if you think about
00:58:29
how we've adapted to the first wave of this which was spammy email scams um everybody got them and over
00:58:38
time people learned to identify them and be skeptical of them and reject them likewise you know I'm sure many of us
00:58:46
get like text messages I certainly get loads of text messages trying to fish me and ask me to meet up or do this that
00:58:52
and the other and we've adapted right now I think we should all know and expect that criminals will use these
00:59:02
tools to manipulate us just as you've described I mean you know the voice is
00:59:08
going to be humanlike the Deep fake is going to be super convincing and there are actually ways around those things so
00:59:18
for example the reason why the banks invented OTP um one-time passwords where they send you a text message with a
00:59:26
special code um is precisely for this reason so that you have a 2fa a two Factor authentication increasingly we
00:59:34
will have a three or four Factor authentication where you have to triangulate between multiple separate
00:59:42
independent sources and it won't just be like call your bank manager and release
00:59:46
the funds right so this is where we need the creativity and energy and attention of everybody
00:59:54
because defense the kind of defensive measures have to evolve as quickly as the potential offensive measures the attacks
01:00:04
that are coming I heard you say this that you think um some people are for many of
01:00:10
these problems we're going to need to develop AIS to defend us from the AIS right we kind of already have that
01:00:18
right so we have automated ways of detecting spam online these days you know most of the time there are um
01:00:27
machine Learning Systems which are trying to identify when your credit card is used in a fraudulent way that's not a
01:00:34
human sitting there looking at patterns of spending traffic in real time that's
01:00:38
an AI that is like flagging that something looks off um likewise with data centers or security cameras a lot
01:00:47
of those security cameras these days are you know have tracking algorithms that look for you know surprising sounds or
01:00:55
like if a if a glass window is is smashed that'll be detected by an AI often that is you know listening on the
01:01:03
security camera so you know that's kind of what I mean by that is that increasingly those AIS will get more
01:01:09
capable and we'll want to use them for defensive purposes and that's exactly
01:01:14
what it looks like to have good healthy well-functioning controlled AIS that serve us I went on one of these large
01:01:20
language models and and said to me give I said to the large language model give me an example where in artificial
01:01:25
intelligence takes over the world or whatever and just and results in the destruction of humanity and then tell me
01:01:31
what we'd need to do to prevent it and it said it gave me this wonderful example of this AI called Cynthia that
01:01:39
threatens to destroy the world and it says the way to defend that would be a different AI which had a different name
01:01:46
and it said that this one would be acting in human interests and we'd basically be fighting one AI with
01:01:51
another Ai and of and of course of course of course that level if Cynthia started to wreak hav havoc on the world
01:01:59
and take control of the nuclear weapons and infrastructure and all that we would
01:02:02
need an equally intelligent weapon to fight it although one of the interesting things that we found um over the last
01:02:12
few decades is that it so far tended to be the AI plus the human that has that is still dominating that's the case in
01:02:21
chess uh in go and other games um that in go it's still yeah so there was a paper that came out a few months ago
01:02:31
two months ago that showed that a human was actually able to beat The Cutting Edge go program um even one that was
01:02:38
better than Alpha go with a new strategy that they had discovered um you know so
01:02:44
obviously it's not just a sort of game over environment where the AI just arrives and it gets better like humans
01:02:50
also adapt they get super smart they like I say get more cynical ask get more more skeptical ask you know good
01:02:58
questions invent their own things use their own AIS to adapt and that's the evolutionary nature of what it means to
01:03:05
have a technology right I mean everything is a technology like your pair of glasses made you smarter in a
01:03:12
way like before there were glasses and people got bad eyesight they weren't able to read you know suddenly those who
01:03:18
did adopt those Technologies were able to read for you know longer in their lives or under low light conditions and
01:03:24
they were able to consume more information and got smarter and so that is the trajectory of Technology it's
01:03:29
this iterative interplay between you know human and machine that makes us better over time you know the potential
01:03:39
um consequences if if we don't reach a point of containment yet you chose to
01:03:43
build a company in this space yeah why why that why did you do that because I believe that the best way to
01:03:56
uh demonstrate how to build safe and and contained AI is to actually experiment with it in practice and I think that if
01:04:08
we are just Skeptics or critics and we stand back from The Cutting Edge then we give up that opportunity to shape
01:04:16
outcomes to you know all of those other actors that we referred to whether it's
01:04:22
like China and the US going at each other's throats uh you know you know or other big companies that are purely
01:04:27
pursuing profit at all costs and so it doesn't solve all the problems of course
01:04:33
it's super hard and again it's full of contradictions but I honestly think it's
01:04:38
the right way for everybody to proceed you know if experiment at the front yeah if you're afraid Russia Putin understand
01:04:47
right what reduces fear is deep understanding spend time playing with these models look at their weaknesses
01:04:54
they're not superhuman yet they make tons of mistakes they're crappy in lots
01:04:58
of ways they're actually not that hard to make the more you've experimented has
01:05:03
it has that correlated with a reduction in fear cheeky question no but that's yes
01:05:12
and no you're totally right yes it has in the sense that you know the problem
01:05:17
is the more you learn the more you realize yeah that's what I'm saying I
01:05:22
was fine before I started talking about Ai and now more I've talked about it it's true it's true it's it's sort of
01:05:30
pulling on a thread which it's a crazy spiral um yeah I mean like I think in the short term It's Made
01:05:39
Me way less afraid because I I don't see that kind of existential harm that we've
01:05:45
been talking about in the next decade or two but longer term that's that's where
01:05:49
I struggle to wrap my head around how things play out in 30 years some people say
01:05:57
government regulation will sorted out you discussed this in Chapter 13 of your book where you which is titled
01:06:04
containment must be possible I love how you didn't say is yeah containment must
01:06:11
be containment must be possible um what do you say to people that say government
01:06:15
regulation will sorted out I had rishy sunak did some announcement and he's got
01:06:18
a cobra committee coming together they'll handle it that's right and the
01:06:23
EU have a huge piece of regulation called the EU AI act um um you know Joe President Joe Biden has you know gotten
01:06:32
his own you know set of proposals and um you know we've been working with with
01:06:38
both you know Rishi sunak and and Biden and you know trying to contribute and shape it in the best way that we can
01:06:44
look it isn't going to happen without regulation so regulation is essential is
01:06:50
critical um again going back to the precautionary principle but at the same time regulation isn't enough you know I
01:06:59
often hear people say well we'll just regulate it we'll just stop we'll just
01:07:04
stop we'll just stop we'll slow down um and the problem with that is that it
01:07:10
kind of ignores the fact that the people who are putting together the regulation
01:07:17
don't really understand enough about the detail today you know in their defense
01:07:22
they're rapidly trying to wrap their head around it especially in in the last
01:07:25
6 months and that's a great relief to me cuz I feel the burden is now increasingly shared and you know just
01:07:32
from a personal perspective I'm like I feel like I've been saying this for
01:07:36
about a decade and just in the last six months now everyone's coming at me and
01:07:40
saying like you know what's going on I'm like great this is the conversation we
01:07:44
need to be having because everybody can start to see the glimmers of the future like what will happen if a chat GPT like
01:07:52
product or a piie like product really does improve over the next 10 years and so when I say you know regulation is not
01:08:00
enough what I mean is it needs movement it needs culture it needs people who are
01:08:06
actually building and making you know in like modern creative critical ways not just like giving it up to you know
01:08:14
companies or small groups of people right we need lots of different people experimenting with strategies for
01:08:19
containment isn't it predicted that this industry is A1 15 trillion dollar industry or something like that yeah
01:08:26
I've heard that it is a lot so if I'm rishy and I know that I'm going to be
01:08:30
chucked out of office Rish is the prime minister of the UK If I'm going to be
01:08:34
trucked out of office in two years unless this economy gets good I don't want to do anything to slow down that
01:08:39
$15 trillion dollar bag that I could be on the receiving end of I would I would definitely not want to slow that 15
01:08:45
billion trillion dollar bag and give it to like America or Canada or some other country I'd want that $15 trillion doll
01:08:53
windfall to be on my country right so I have I have no other than the long-term you know health and success of humanity
01:09:03
in my four-year election window I've got to do everything I can to boost these
01:09:07
numbers right and get us looking good so I I could give you lip service but but but listen I'm not going
01:09:15
to be here unless these numbers look good right exactly that's another one of
01:09:22
the problems short-termism is everywhere who is responsible for thinking about the 20-year
01:09:31
future who is it I mean that's a deep question right I mean we we we the world
01:09:36
is happening to us on a decade by decade time scale it's also happening hour by
01:09:41
hour so change is just ripping through us and this arbitrary window of governance of like a four-year election
01:09:49
cycle where actually it's not even four years because by the time you've got in
01:09:53
you do some stuff for six months and then by month you know 12 or 18 you're starting to think about the next cycle
01:09:59
and are you going to pull you know this just like the short-termism is killing us right and we don't have an
01:10:06
Institutional body whose responsibility is stability you could think of it as like
01:10:13
a you know like a global technology stability function what is the global strategy for
01:10:23
containment that has the ability to to introduce friction when necessary to implement the precautionary principle
01:10:31
and to basically keep the peace that I think is the missing governance piece which we have to invent
01:10:39
in the next 20 years and it's insane because I'm basically describing the UN Security Council plus
01:10:47
the World Trade Organization all these huge you know Global institutions which formed after you know the horrors of the
01:10:55
second world war have actually been incredible they've created interdependence and alignment and
01:11:02
stability right obviously there's been a lot of bumps along the way in the last
01:11:05
70 years but broadly speaking it's an unprecedented period of peace and when
01:11:11
there's peace we can create prosperity and that's actually what we're lacking
01:11:16
at the moment is that we don't have an international mechanism for coordinating
01:11:20
among competing Nations competing corporations um to drive the peace in fact we're actually going kind of in the
01:11:29
opposite direction we're resorting to the old school language of a clash of civilizations with like China is the new
01:11:36
enemy they're going to come to dominate us we have to dominate them it's a it's
01:11:39
a battle between two polls China's taking over Africa China's taking over
01:11:43
the Middle East we have to count I mean it's just like that can only lead to
01:11:49
conflict that just assumes that conflict is inevitable and so when I say regulation is not enough no amount of
01:11:56
good regulation in the UK or in Europe or in the US is going to deal with that Clash of civilizations language which we
01:12:04
seem to have been become addicted to if we need that Global collaboration to be successful here are you optimistic now
01:12:13
that we'll we'll get it because the same incentives are at play with climate
01:12:16
change in AI you know why would I want to reduce my carbon emissions when it's
01:12:19
making me loads of money or why you know why would I want to reduce my AI development when it's going to make us
01:12:25
15 trillion yeah so the the the really painful answer to that question is that we've only really ever driven extreme
01:12:36
compromise and consensus in two scenarios one off the back of unimaginable catastrophe and suffering
01:12:46
you know Hiroshima Nagasaki and the Holocaust and World War II which drove 10 years of consensus and new political
01:12:55
structures right and then the second is um we did fire the bullet though didn't
01:13:02
we we fired a couple of those nuclear bombs exactly and that that's why I'm
01:13:07
saying the brutal truth of that is that it takes a catastrophe to trigger the need for alignment right so
01:13:16
that that's one the second is where there is an obvious mutually assured destruction um you know
01:13:25
Dynamic where both parties are afraid that this would trigger nuclear meltdown right and that means suicide and when
01:13:35
there was few parties exactly when there was just nine people exactly you could get all nine but in in when we're
01:13:42
talking about artificial technology there's going to be more than nine people right that have P access to the
01:13:47
full sort of power of that technology for NE various reasons I don't think it
01:13:51
has to be like that I think that's the challenge of containment is to reduce the number of actors that
01:13:58
have access to the existential threat Technologies to an absolute minimum and then use the existing military and
01:14:07
economic incentives which have driven World Order and peace so far um to to prevent the proliferation of access to
01:14:14
these super intelligences or these agis a quick word on hu as you know they're a
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01:14:45
vitamins and minerals and nutrients that I need in my diet to be aligned with my
01:14:50
health goals while also not dropping the ball on my professional goals because it's convenient and because I can get it
01:14:56
online in Tesco in supermarkets all over the country if you're one of those people that hasn't yet tried hu or you
01:15:01
have before but for whatever reason you're not a Hu consumer right now I would highly recommend giving hu a go
01:15:09
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all across the UK 10 areas of focus for containment you're the first person I've
01:15:20
met that's really hazarded a laid out a blueprint for the things that need to be
01:15:24
done um cohesively to try and reach this point of containment so I super excited
01:15:29
to talk to you about these the first one is about safety and you mentioned there
01:15:33
that's kind of what we talked about a little bit about there being AIS that are currently being developed to help
01:15:37
contain other AIS two audits um which is being able to from what I understand being able to audit
01:15:47
what's being built in the these open source models three choke points what's
01:15:52
that yeah so choke point refers to points in the supply chain where you can throttle who has access to what okay so
01:16:02
on the internet today everyone thinks of the internet as an idea this kind of abstract Cloud thing that hovers around
01:16:09
above our heads but really the internet is a bunch of cables those cables you know are physical things that transmit
01:16:18
information you know under the sea and you know the those points the end points can be
01:16:25
stopped and you can monitor traffic you can control basically what traffic moves
01:16:31
back and forth and then the second choke point is access to chips so the gpus graphics processing units which are used
01:16:41
to train these super large clusters I mean we now have the second largest supercomputer in the world today uh at
01:16:50
least you know just for this next six months we will other people will catch up soon but we're ahead of the curve
01:16:54
we're very luy cost a billion dollars and those chips are really the raw commodity that we use
01:17:02
to build these large language models and access to those chips is something that
01:17:07
governments can should and are um you know restricting that's a choke point you spent a billion dollars on a
01:17:14
computer we did yeah it's bit more than that actually about 1.3 a couple of years time that'll be
01:17:23
the price of an iPhone that's the problem everyone's going to have it number six is quite curious you say
01:17:31
that um the need for governments to put increased taxation on AI companies to be
01:17:35
able to find um fund the massive changes in society such as paying for reskilling
01:17:40
and education yeah um you put massive tax on over here I'm going to go over here if you tax it if I'm an AI company
01:17:49
and you're taxing me heavily over here I'm going to Dubai yep or Portugal yep
01:17:56
so if it's that much of a competitive disadvantage I will not build my company
01:18:00
where the taxation's high right right so the way to think about this is what are the strategies for containment
01:18:09
if we're agreed that long-term we want to contain that is close down slow down
01:18:16
control both the proliferation of these Technologies and the way the really big AIS are used then the way to do that is
01:18:24
to tax things tax things taxing things slows them down and that's what you're
01:18:29
looking for provided you can coordinate internationally so you're totally right
01:18:34
that you know some people will move to Singapore or to Abu Dhabi or Dubai or whatever the reality is that at least
01:18:41
for the next you know sort of period I would say 10 years or so the concentrations of intellectual you know
01:18:48
horsepower will remain the big mega cities right you know I I moved from from London in 2020 to go to Silicon
01:18:57
Valley and I started my new company in Silicon Valley because the concentration of talent there is overwhelming all the
01:19:03
very best people are there on in in Ai and software engineering so I think it's
01:19:09
quite likely that that's going to remain the case for the foreseeable future but
01:19:13
in the long term you're totally right how do you it's another coordination
01:19:16
problem how do we get nation states to collectively agree that we want to try and contain that we want to slow down
01:19:24
because as we've discussed with the proliferation of dangerous materials or on the military side there's no use one
01:19:30
person doing it or one country doing it if others race ahead and that's the conundrum that we face I am I don't
01:19:38
consider myself to be a pessimist in my life I consider myself to be an optimist
01:19:42
generally I think and I always I think that as you've said I think we have no
01:19:45
choice but to be optimistic and I have faith in humanity we've done so much so
01:19:49
many incredible things and so overcome so many things and I also think I'm really logical as in I'm the type of
01:19:54
person that needs evidence to change my beliefs either way um when I look at all
01:19:59
of the whole picture having spoken to you and several others on this subject matter I see more reasons why we won't
01:20:06
be able to contain than reasons why we will especially when I dig into those incentives um you talk about incentives
01:20:13
at length in your book um at different different points and it's clear that all
01:20:17
the incentives are pushing towards a lack of containment especially in the short and Midterm which tends to happen
01:20:23
with new technology in the short and Midterm it's like a land grab the gold is in the Stream we all rush to get the
01:20:29
the shovels and the you know the cves and stuff and then we realize the unintended consequences of that
01:20:35
hopefully not before it's too late in chapter 8 you talk about Unstoppable incentives at play here the
01:20:43
coming wave represents the greatest economic prize in history and scientists and technologists
01:20:50
are all too human they crave status success and Legacy and they want to be recognized as the
01:20:57
first and the best they're competitive and clever with a carefully nurtured sense of their place in the world and in
01:21:04
history right I look at you I look at people like Sam um from open AI Elon you're all
01:21:14
humans with the same understanding of your place in history and status and success you all want that right
01:21:23
right there's a lot of people that maybe aren't as don't have as good a track
01:21:28
record of you at doing the right thing which you certainly have that will just want the status and the success and the
01:21:33
money incredibly strong incentives I always think about incentives as being the thing that you look at when you want
01:21:39
to understand how people will behave all of the incentives on a on a geopolitical
01:21:44
like on a global level suggest that containment won't happen am I right in that
01:21:52
assumption that all the incentives suggest containment won't happen in the short or midterm until there is a c a a
01:21:59
tragic event that makes us forces us towards that idea of containment or if there is a threat of mutually assured
01:22:08
destruction right so that and that's the case that I'm trying to make is that
01:22:14
let's not wait for something catastrophic to happen so it's self-evident that we all have to work
01:22:20
towards containment right I mean you you would have thought that the Potential Threat the potential idea that
01:22:31
covid-19 was a side effect let's call it of a laboratory in Wuhan that was exploring
01:22:40
gain of function research where it was deliberately trying to basically make the pathogen more transmissible you
01:22:48
would have thought that warning to all of us let's let's not even debate
01:22:52
whether it was or wasn't but just the fact that it's conceivable that it could
01:22:56
be that should really in my opinion have forced all of us to instantly agree that
01:23:04
this kind of research should just be shut down we should just not be doing gain of function research on what planet
01:23:09
could we possibly persuade ourselves that we can overcome the containment problem in biology because we've proven
01:23:16
that we can't cuz it could have potentially got out and there's a number
01:23:20
of other examples of where it did get out of other diseases like foot and mouth disease
01:23:25
mhm back in the '90s in the UK so but that didn't change our Behavior right
01:23:32
well foot and mouth disease clearly didn't cause enough harm because it only
01:23:35
killed a bunch of cattle right um and the pandemic we can't seem you know covid-19 pandemic we can't seem to agree
01:23:42
you know that it really was from a lab and not from a bunch of bats right and so that's where I struggle where you
01:23:52
know now you catch me in a moment where I feel angry and sad and pessimistic because to me that's like a
01:23:59
straightforwardly obvious conclusion that you know this is a type of research that we should be closing down and I
01:24:05
think we should be using these moments to give us insight and wisdom about how we handle other technology trajectories
01:24:15
in the next few decades should we should we should that's what I'm advocating for
01:24:20
must that's the best I can do I want to know will will I think be a low I can only do my best I'm doing my
01:24:28
best to advocate for it I mean you know like I'll give you an example like I
01:24:32
think autonomy is a type of AI capability that we should not be pursuing really like autonomous cars and
01:24:40
stuff well I I autonomous cars I think are slightly different because autonomous cars operate within a much
01:24:46
more constrained physical domain right like you know you you really can the containment strategies for autonomous
01:24:53
cars are quite reassuring right they have you know GPS control you know we know exactly all the Telemetry and how
01:25:01
exactly all of those you know components on board a car operate and we can observe repeatedly that it behaves
01:25:08
exactly as intended right whereas I think with with other forms of autonomy that people might be pursuing like
01:25:16
online okay you know where you have an an AI that is like designed to self-improve without any human oversight
01:25:23
or a battle Battlefield weapon which you know like unlike a car hasn't been you
01:25:28
know over that particular moment in the battlefield millions of times but is actually facing a new enemy every time
01:25:35
you know every single time and we're just going to go and you know allow these autonomous weapons to have you
01:25:41
know the these autonomous military robots to have lethal Force I think that's something that we
01:25:47
should really resist I don't think we want to have autonomous robots that have
01:25:53
lethal Force you're a super smart guy and I I struggle to believe that you're
01:25:58
you you because you you demonstrate such a clear understanding of the incentives
01:26:02
in your book that I struggle to believe that you don't think the incentives will
01:26:07
win out especially in the short and near term and then the problem is in the short and near term as is the case with
01:26:12
most of these waves is we we wake up and 10 years time ago how the hell did we get here right and why like and we and
01:26:21
as you say this precautionary approach of we should have ranged the Bell earlier we should have sounded the alarm
01:26:25
earlier but we waltzed in with optimism right and with that kind of aversion to confronting the realities of it and then
01:26:34
we woke up in 30 years and we're on a leash right and there's a big rottweiler
01:26:38
and we're we've lost control we've lost you know I I I I would love to
01:26:47
know someone as smart as you I don't I don't believe can be can believe that
01:26:52
containment is possible and that's me just being completely honest I'm not saying you're
01:26:58
lying to me but I just can't see how someone as smart as you and in the know
01:27:01
as you can believe that containment is going to happen well I didn't say it is
01:27:05
possible I said it must be right which is this is what we keep discussing right that's an important distinction is that
01:27:11
on the face of it look what I I care about I care about science I care about facts I care about describing the world
01:27:19
as I see it and what I've set out to do in the book is des describe a set of
01:27:25
interlocking incentives which drive a technology production process which produces potentially really dangerous
01:27:33
outcomes and what I'm trying to do is frame those outcomes in the context of
01:27:38
the containment problem and say this is the big challenge of the 21st century containment is the challenge and if it
01:27:45
isn't possible then we have serious issues and on the face of it like I've
01:27:49
said in the book I mean the CH the first chapter is called containment is not possible right the last chapter is
01:27:53
called con must be possible for all our sakes it must be possible but that but I
01:27:58
agree with you that I'm not I'm not saying it is I'm saying this is what we
01:28:02
have to be working on we have no choice we have no choice but to work on this problem this is a critical
01:28:08
problem how much of your time are you focusing on this problem basically all my time I mean bu building and creating
01:28:15
is about understanding how these models work what their limitations are how to build it safely and ethically I mean we
01:28:23
have designed the structure of the company to focus on the safety and ethics aspects so for example we are a
01:28:30
public benefit Corporation right which is a new type of corporation which gives us a legal obligation to balance profit
01:28:40
making with the consequences of our actions as a company on the rest of the world the way that we affect the
01:28:48
environment you know the way that we affect people the way that we affect users that people who aren't users of
01:28:55
our products and that's a really interesting I think and important New Direction it's a new Evolution in
01:29:04
corporate structure because it says we have a responsibility to proactively do our best to do the right thing right and
01:29:12
I think that if if you were a tobacco company back in the day or an oil company back in the day and your legal
01:29:19
Charter said that your directors are liable in if they don't meet the criteria of stewarding your work in a
01:29:29
way that doesn't just optimize profit which is what all companies are incentivized to do at the moment talking
01:29:33
about incentives but actually in equal measure attends to the importance of doing good in the world to me that's a
01:29:42
incremental but important innovation in how we organize society and how we incentivize our work so it doesn't solve
01:29:51
everything it's it's it's not a Panacea but that's my effort to try and take a
01:29:56
small step in the right direction do you ever get sad about it about what's happening yeah for sure for sure it's
01:30:08
intense it's intense it's a lot to take in this is it's a it's a very
01:30:14
real reality does that weigh on you yeah it does I mean every day every day I mean I've been working on this for
01:30:25
many years now and it's uh you know it's it's emotionally a lot to take in it's it's
01:30:32
it's hard to think about the far out future and how your actions today our actions collectively our weaknesses our
01:30:42
failures that you know that irritation that I have that we can't learn the lessons from the pandemic right like all
01:30:50
of those moments where you feel the frustration governments not working properly or corporations not listening
01:30:58
or some of the obsessions that we have in culture where we're debating like small things you know and you're just
01:31:06
like Whoa We need to focus on the big picture here you must feel a certain sense of
01:31:12
responsibility as well that most people won't carry because you've spent so much
01:31:17
of your life at the very cutting edge of this technology and you understand it better than most you can speak to it
01:31:22
better than most so you have a a great chance than many at steering that's a
01:31:29
responsibility yeah I embrace that I try to treat that as a privilege I feel lucky to have
01:31:39
the opportunity to try and do that there's this wonderful thing in my favorite theatrical play called Hamilton
01:31:47
where he says history has its eyes on you do you feel that yeah I feel the I feel that I feel
01:31:55
that it's a good way of putting it I do feel that you're happy right well what is happiness to
01:32:10
know um what's the range of emotions that you you contend with on a on a frequent basis if you're being
01:32:19
honest I think is kind of exhausting and exhilarating in equal measure because for me it is
01:32:32
beautiful to see people interact with AIS and get huge benefit out of it I mean you know every day now millions of
01:32:42
people have a super smart tool in their pocket that is making them wiser and healthier and happier providing
01:32:50
emotional support answering questions of every type making you more intelligent and so on
01:32:56
the face of it in the short term that feels incredible it's amazing what we're
01:32:59
all building but in the longer term it is exhausting to keep making this argument
01:33:07
and you know have been doing it for a long time and in a weird way I feel a bit of a sense of relief in the last six
01:33:15
months because after chat gbt and you know this this wave feels like it's started to arrive and everybody gets it
01:33:24
so I feel like it's a shared problem now and uh that feels nice it's not just
01:33:32
bouncing around in your head a little bit it's not just in my head and a few
01:33:35
other people at Deep Mind and open Ai and other places that have been talking about it for a long
01:33:40
time ultimately human beings May no longer be the primary planetary drivers as we have become accustomed to being we
01:33:48
are going to live in an Epoch where the majority of our daily interactions are not with other people but with a eyes
01:33:54
page 284 of your book The Last Page [Laughter] yeah think about how much of your day
01:34:08
you spend looking uh screen 12 hours pretty much right whether it's a phone or an iPad or a
01:34:16
desktop versus how much time you spend looking into the eyes of your friends and your loved
01:34:22
ones and so to me it's like we're already there in a way you know what I
01:34:30
meant by that was you know this is a world that we're kind of already in you know the last three years
01:34:39
people have been talking about metaverse metaverse metaverse and the mischaracterization of the metaverse was
01:34:45
that it's over there it was this like virtual world that we would all Bop around in and talk to each other as
01:34:51
these little characters and but that was totally wrong that was a complete misframing the metaverse is already here
01:35:01
it's the digital space that exists in parallel time to our everyday life it's
01:35:07
the conversation that you will have on Twitter or you know the video that you'll post on YouTube or this podcast
01:35:14
that will go out and connect with other people it's that meta space of interaction you know and I use meta to
01:35:22
mean Beyond this space not just that weird other over there space that people seem to point to and that's really what
01:35:33
is emerging here it's this parallel digital space that is going to live alongside with and in relation to our
01:35:41
physical world your kids come to you you got kids no I don't have kids your future kids if you ever have kids a
01:35:48
young child walks up to you and says asks that question that Elon was asks what should I do about with my future
01:35:55
what should I pursue in the light of everything you know about how artificial intelligence is going to change the
01:36:01
world and computational power and all of these things what should I dedicate my life to what do you say I would say
01:36:08
knowledge is power Embrace understand grapple with the consequences don't look the other way
01:36:16
when it feels scary and do everything you can to understand and part anticipate and shape
01:36:25
because it is coming and if someone's listening to this and they want to do something to
01:36:33
help this battle for which I think you present as the solution containment what can the individual
01:36:42
do read listen use the tools try to make the tools understand the current state of
01:36:51
Regulation see which organization are organizing around it like you know campaign groups activism groups you know
01:37:00
find solidarity connect with other people spend time online ask these questions mention it at the pub you know
01:37:09
ask your parents ask your mom how she's reacting to you know talking to Alexa or
01:37:13
whatever it is that she might do pay attention I think that's already enough
01:37:19
and there's no need to be more prescriptive than that because I think people are
01:37:24
creative and independent and will it will it will be obvious to you what you as an individual feel you need to
01:37:32
contribute In This Moment provided you're paying attention last question what if we fail
01:37:41
and what if we succeed what if we fail in containment and what if we succeed in containment of artificial
01:37:48
intelligence I honestly think that if we succeed this is going to be the the most
01:37:55
productive and the most meritocratic moment in the history of our species we are about to make intelligence widely
01:38:04
available to hundreds of millions if not billions of people and that is all going
01:38:09
to make us smarter and much more creative and much more productive and I think over the next few decades we will
01:38:16
solve many of our biggest Social Challenges I really believe that I really believe we're going to reduce the
01:38:22
cost of energy production storage and distribution to zero marginal cost we're
01:38:26
going to reduce the cost of producing healthy food and make that widely available to everybody and I
01:38:33
think the same trajectory with healthc care with Transportation with education I think that ends up producing
01:38:42
radical abundance over a 30-year period and in a world of radical abundance what
01:38:46
do I do with my day I think that's another profound question and believe me that is a good problem to have if we can
01:38:53
absolutely if do we don't need meaning and purpose and oh man that is a better
01:38:58
problem to have than what we've just been talking about for the last like 90
01:39:02
minutes yeah and I think that's wonderful isn't that amazing I don't
01:39:06
know I I don't know the reason I I I'm unsure is because everything that seems
01:39:11
wonderful has a has a unintended consequence I'm sure it does we live in a world of food abundance in the west
01:39:17
and our biggest problem is obesity right so I'll take that problem in the grand
01:39:21
scheme of everything not need struggle do we not need that kind of meaningful voluntary struggle I think we'll create
01:39:30
new other you know opportunities to Quest okay you know I I think that's an easier problem to solve and I think it's
01:39:38
an amazing problem like many people really don't want to work right they they want to pursue their passion and
01:39:43
their Hobby and you know all the things that you talk about and so on and absolutely like we're now I think going
01:39:49
to be heading towards a world where we can liberate people from the the Les of work unless you really want to Universal
01:39:56
basic income I've long been an advocate of Ubi very long time everyone gets a
01:40:01
check every month I don't think it's going to quite take that form I actually
01:40:06
think it's going to be that we basically reduce the cost of producing basic Goods
01:40:12
so that you're not as dependent on income like imagine if you did have basically free energy and food and you
01:40:20
you you could use that free energy to grow your own food you could grow in a desert because you would have adapted
01:40:25
seeds and so on you would have you know desalination and so on that really changes the structure of cities it
01:40:31
changes the structure of Nations it means that you really can live in quite different ways for very extended periods
01:40:38
without contact with the kind of Center I mean I'm actually not a huge advocate
01:40:42
of that kind of libertarian you know wet dream but like I think if you think about it in theory it's kind of a really
01:40:49
interesting Dynamic that's what proliferation of power means power isn't
01:40:52
just about access to intelligence it's about access to these tools which allow
01:40:57
you to take control of your own destiny and your life and create meaning and purpose in the way that you you know
01:41:03
might Envision and that's incredibly creative incredibly creative time that's
01:41:08
what success looks like to me and well in some ways the downside of that I think this that failure is not
01:41:17
achieving a world of radical abundance in my opinion and and more more importantly failure is a failure to
01:41:25
contain right what does that lead to I think it leads to a mass proliferation of power and people who
01:41:33
have really bad you know intentions what does that lead to will potentially use that power to cause harm to others this
01:41:42
is part of the challenge right a small in this networked globalized World a tiny group of people who wish to
01:41:51
deliberately cause harm are going to have access to tools that can instantly quickly have large scale
01:41:59
impact on many many other people and that's the challenge of proliferation is
01:42:04
preventing those Bad actors from getting access to the means to completely destabilize um our world that's what
01:42:12
containment is about we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves
01:42:18
a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving the question for the question left for you is
01:42:24
what is a space or place that you consider the most sacred well I think one of the most
01:42:35
beautiful places I remember going to as a child was um windir Lake in the Lake District um and I was pretty young and
01:42:48
on a on a dingy with uh some family members and I just remember it being incredibly
01:42:56
Serene and beautiful and and calm I actually haven't been back there since but that was a pretty beautiful place
01:43:05
seems like the antithesis of the world we live in right maybe I should go back there and chill
01:43:11
out maybe thank you so much for writing such a great book it's wonderful to to
01:43:15
to read a book on this subject matter that does present Solutions because not many of them do and it presents them in
01:43:21
a balanced way that appreciates both sides of the argument doesn't isn't
01:43:25
tempted to just play to either what do they call it playing to like the crowd they call like playing to the orchestra
01:43:30
I can't remember right but just it doesn't attempt to play to either side
01:43:33
or Ponder to either side in order to score points it seems to be entirely nuanced incredibly smart and Incredibly
01:43:41
necessary because of the stakes that the book confronts um that are at play in the world at the moment and and that's
01:43:49
really important it's very very very important and it's important that I
01:43:52
think everybody reads this book it's incredibly accessible as well and I said
01:43:56
to Jack who's the director of this podcast before we started recording that there's so many term there's so many
01:44:02
terms like nanotechnology and um all the stuff about like biotechnologies and Quantum
01:44:09
Computing that reading through the book suddenly I understood what they meant and these had been kind of exclusive ter
01:44:15
terms and Technologies and I also had never understood the relationship that all of these Technologies now have with
01:44:21
each other and how like robotics emerging with artificial intelligence is going to cause this whole new range of
01:44:27
possibilities that again have a good side and a potential downside um It's a
01:44:32
Wonderful book and it's perfectly timed it's perfectly timed wonderfully written
01:44:36
perfectly timed I'm so thankful that I got to read it and I highly recommend
01:44:40
that anybody that's curious on this subject matter goes and gets the book so
01:44:44
thank you Mustafa really really appreciate your time and hopefully it wasn't too uncomfortable for you thank
01:44:48
you this was awesome I loved it it was really fun and uh thanks for such a amazing amazing wide ranging
01:44:54
conversation thank you if you've been listening to this podcast over the last few months you'll
01:45:01
know that we're sponsored and supported by Airbnb but it amazes me how many people don't realize they could actually
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