00:00:00
Bewildering, exhilarating, terrifying, but it had to be doable. There There was no alternative. I've been in board
00:00:06
situations [music] where there has really been very little challenge, and that is monumentally unhelpful.
00:00:13
Something awful happening to a student on what is effectively my watch keeps me awake.
00:00:19
>> Welcome to Grit in the Boardroom. I'm Erica Ilias and Norris, and today I'm
00:00:23
joined by Professor Sally Wheeler, Vice Chancellor of Birkbeck University of London. Welcome to Grit in the
00:00:30
Boardroom, Sally. >> Thank you. >> Let's get into it. Sally, you've led
00:00:34
universities through extraordinary challenges. When you think about governance in higher education, what's
00:00:40
the moment that captures [music] its reality for you? >> I think my first ever
00:00:47
Board of Governors meeting at Birkbeck. As Vice Chancellor, I'd been there before, but I I went back after a period
00:00:52
of 20 years, and we were talking about whether we were in the terms [music] set by the Office
00:00:57
for Students a going concern or not. Uh and that really did crystallize my thinking, because although you get the
00:01:06
information before you start job, you never get, as you said uh in your intro, you never get quite the information you
00:01:14
need that makes you realize how against the wall you are. >> What was that like stepping in on the
00:01:20
kind of first meeting? What did What did it feel like to be stepping in and then
00:01:24
to hear the information kind of land and then kind of think, "Okay, well, what do
00:01:28
I What do I do now?" >> Bewildering, >> Mhm. >> exhilarating,
00:01:32
but also a terrifying, but but it had to be doable. There There was no alternative but for it to be doable.
00:01:40
>> You obviously had a strong belief in in the power of kind of turning that around
00:01:44
and the university itself. >> University staff don't like it when you refer to what they do, what they teach
00:01:51
on as products. >> Yeah. >> But they are, essentially. And taking Birkbeck as a whole, I was convinced
00:01:59
that its product was saleable that and that I could drive up student numbers and drive up other activities to
00:02:08
bridge the gap. I wouldn't think that about all HE institutions, but I think there was enough uniqueness
00:02:15
there, there is enough new uniqueness there to be able to turn it around. >> And you're in a better situation now
00:02:22
than you were back then? >> Yes, uh better as in there is a plan, there's a plan I think that will turn it
00:02:29
around. All of these things come down to time. Do you have sufficient time to be
00:02:34
able to execute that plan? In many worlds, you would just throw resources at that plan and you'd be able
00:02:41
to execute it more quickly, but of course, when you're up against it, you can't. I think also
00:02:48
HE institutions are much less command and control than corporations would be. So, you can't just turn around and go,
00:02:56
"Oh, by the way, we're doing X from tomorrow." and just filter that down.
00:03:01
You have to be able to socialize that message, you have to be able to take people with you.
00:03:05
>> What stood out to you in how the leadership team handled that uncertainty?
00:03:10
>> So, that's another thing that inspired me to take it on. I think I inherited a very good leadership team.
00:03:17
Uh I've lost a couple of people through natural attrition since then, retirements, etc.,
00:03:23
but I've been able to replace them and one of the important things for me is
00:03:27
that they slot into the team, but they bring something different in terms of how they think.
00:03:34
Uh and I also know myself well enough to know that I need people who say will say
00:03:40
to me without fear or favor, "You can't do that. That's a crazy idea." or "That
00:03:45
won't work. Why don't we look at it like this?" >> So, the leadership team is a safe space
00:03:52
for people to challenge power essentially. >> Well, I would like to think it is. It
00:03:57
certainly feels like that. I hope they would say the same. We're about to go
00:04:00
into a period of doing a 360 analysis just to find out how we all fit together. But
00:04:07
yes, I have been challenged by people and that's really good. >> I think it's really important. I mean,
00:04:12
you know from kind of corporate law and corporate governance that you you teach that it's such a vital part of
00:04:20
leadership to be able to come with you on the journey. It sounds like that's
00:04:24
something that you instill within the team. >> Part of that journey is for them being
00:04:28
able to push back. >> Yeah. >> And just to say, have you really thought that through?
00:04:33
Are we Is this really the way for Is this really the thing to do? >> And do you feel that that experience in
00:04:41
any way shaped your way of thinking about governance in organizations, particularly higher
00:04:46
education? >> I I've never been afraid to challenge. I look back on my younger self. I think
00:04:51
sometimes I should have reined it in. Um I think sometimes people must have thought she's a pain.
00:04:58
>> But it's got you where you are today, right? >> Yes and no. I think luck luck plays an
00:05:05
enormous amount getting where you are. Often there are choices, you make the right choice, things roll out for you.
00:05:12
You make the wrong choice, they come to a juddering standstill. >> What would you say you would have done
00:05:17
differently then if you kind of spoke a bit about um maybe reining it in a bit? How would you have done that? What
00:05:22
advice would you give to others that maybe feel like that? >> Uh keep emotion out of it.
00:05:27
Always be considered. And remember that people always remember the worst bits about you.
00:05:35
>> Wow, okay. You've had me thinking about that now. That's interesting.
00:05:39
>> It's true, I think. If you're terribly emotional about things, uh if you're really really sharp and
00:05:44
confrontational about things, people might remember the confrontation, but they don't remember the substance of it,
00:05:50
and you've lost so you've lost them. >> You've described graduation previously
00:05:54
as a symbol of hope. What does that How do you know that? >> Ah. What does that moment represent for
00:06:01
leaders? >> I think for both executive and non-executive leaders of a university, graduation
00:06:08
week, we have 2 weeks in the year, is the best time ever. Students are delighted to have finished.
00:06:16
Everything now is in front of them. Everything that they have worked for for the last however many years is in front
00:06:23
of them. It's a massively exciting time. The families and friends who supported
00:06:28
them are all there, and it's just time for huge congratulations to them. It's
00:06:33
the best week. >> And what do you think that that brings to the leadership team and those that
00:06:39
work in academia? >> I think it brings a feeling of a job well done. That's That's the job you're there to
00:06:45
do, and for those people you have delivered. It is everyone's nightmare, something
00:06:51
terrible happening to a student when you should have intervened and didn't. Um yeah, I had a student last year who
00:07:00
we were desperately trying to persuade to go home to India. They were an overstayer.
00:07:05
Um we had them in a hotel. We offered to pay the flight. They wouldn't go home.
00:07:09
The authorities Have you ever tried to report anyone for overstaying? Don't bother.
00:07:13
Um but they're not interested. Uh it was a really difficult situation. There was nothing for her in the UK. She
00:07:21
was going to end up in some awful hostel or living on the streets. We had to get
00:07:25
her away. I tried everything from getting a section, thinking that I the mental health people might give me a bit
00:07:30
more help. Uh it was very very difficult. >> Hm, that sounds like >> And that takes a toll on staff.
00:07:38
>> Yeah. >> Cuz they're desperate to get it right, and the system just won't let them get
00:07:42
it right. >> So, is that what keeps you awake at night? >> Yes, something terrible happening to a
00:07:47
student where perhaps we've intervened and maybe that wasn't the right thing to
00:07:53
do, or we haven't been able to intervene and we should have intervened. So, something awful happening to a
00:08:00
student on what is effectively my watch keeps me awake at night. I mean, there are other things that keep me awake at
00:08:06
night, but but that is certainly core. >> Yeah. And how does governance in higher
00:08:13
education differ from corporate governance in uh perhaps a corporate? And why do you think you talk quite a
00:08:21
bit about um risk management sitting at the center of the survival of universities? How do they kind of all
00:08:26
fit together? >> My impression of corporations is that certainly the large ones, the ones that
00:08:31
are on a turnover scale with universities, are a little bit more command and control. Universities
00:08:37
certainly aren't command and control. They're they're quite flat hierarchies.
00:08:42
You often have people in really quite senior leadership positions just for a period of time and then they rotate back
00:08:48
to the ranks. So, you don't see that in corporations, so continuity is difficult.
00:08:54
Encouraging other people to both see the risks and explain the risks knowing that they will be back where
00:09:02
everyone sitting in front of them is now in a couple of years' time can be quite
00:09:06
hard. Leadership positions it for that reason in universities are not necessarily that attractive.
00:09:13
So, it that it is difficult to get people to take them on. >> What would you say to someone thinking
00:09:19
about it? What what's the benefit in doing it? Why have you done it? >> Well, I like a challenge. I think it's
00:09:24
quite exciting. I I like being able to do the deals in inverted commas. Uh someone joked about
00:09:32
me the other day, although I don't think they were joking really. They said,
00:09:35
"Also, Alice has to do the same thing for the last 10 minutes. We better find
00:09:39
us something else to do in a minute. So, I like the buzz of it. I think you can make a difference to the
00:09:46
lives of students. You can make a difference to the lives of people in the institutions if you if you step up and
00:09:53
do it. >> Yeah, and what do you think the impact is of someone in that sort of a
00:09:58
leadership role? What what can they hope to bring? >> They can they can set the culture. Is
00:10:03
the school, the department, the faculty you run is that a supportive place for people
00:10:08
developing careers? Is it a supportive place for getting the best outcomes for for students? Are you planning for the
00:10:16
future? Now, planning for the future in universities in some ways is quite difficult, but at
00:10:22
that level if you assume that nothing there are going to be no external shocks, are you planning a viable future for
00:10:28
your subjects? >> And how do you think that governance creates silos in academia and
00:10:36
makes decision-making more complicated? >> I think it creates silos because you
00:10:41
have distinct pillars. You have the way you run your education and the way that has to report. You have the way you run
00:10:47
research and the way that has to report. Then you have various metrics for student outcomes. You have the gender
00:10:55
pay gap. You have EDI initiatives. All of those things can, if you're not very
00:11:00
careful, report just on vertical lines and you miss the synergies that you can create between them,
00:11:07
which means that you might end up in a crisis or you're missing an opportunity to
00:11:12
actually make something work better. It's very easy, particularly in a large
00:11:16
institution, I think, that the first you hear of something is almost when it's
00:11:21
too late to do something about it unless you're very careful. >> And how how can you help combat that?
00:11:28
>> I think people naturally dislike matrix management because it doesn't create
00:11:34
clear lines. But universities are really only work on matrix management and I think you have
00:11:40
to sell that to people very early on and explain what it means. I think it's difficult if you have
00:11:47
teams of people where at a level they don't respect and get on. And when you have that, when you have suspicion,
00:11:55
one-upmanship, jealousy, etc. Those personality traits make it very difficult to avoid silos.
00:12:02
>> And how do you bring in the student voice into the more senior kind of discussions with leadership?
00:12:09
>> Some of that I think is down to you as as a leader. Most institutions will have students in
00:12:15
departmental meetings, faculty meetings. So I meet with the students' union every
00:12:20
couple of weeks. In fact, I've just taken on last year's student union president into my office.
00:12:27
He has various ambitions about things he wants to do and we're trying to sort of
00:12:32
show him what all sort of aspects of the business of HE look like. So I think you
00:12:37
have to maintain good relationships with students. You have to be clear about what is possible and you have to
00:12:43
encourage them to be ambitious and want to be included. So there will be student
00:12:48
representatives on the board of governors of most institutions. And it's about making sure, I think, that they
00:12:55
feel involved, that they understand the issues that are being discussed, even if
00:12:59
you have to put some time in with them to explain those. >> Sounds very similar to what some listed
00:13:06
companies kind of grapple with with whether they have an employee on the board. And there's always a lot of
00:13:10
questions around whether that's a good idea or not, whether they can have an
00:13:14
equal voice or not. What are your kind of thoughts from experience with higher education?
00:13:19
>> So I think obviously on the board of a corporation there are going to be legal
00:13:22
duties attached to them which make it possibly less attractive. You also got the role
00:13:28
of unions and you don't want to be undermining those cuz fundamentally they are a they are a good
00:13:33
thing. For for students, there has to be an element of trust. If you say to them
00:13:38
this is confidential, then they have to have enough trust in you and respect for you as individuals
00:13:45
and an institution to keep that confidential. And I've always been very lucky.
00:13:49
>> Can you share an example of where governance culture has shaped the outcomes of a crisis?
00:13:56
>> Well, some some people might be familiar with the University of Dundee >> Mhm.
00:14:00
>> where [clears throat] there is an ongoing financial crisis and they have
00:14:04
had a report publicly available from the Scottish Funding Council where it seems
00:14:09
that the senior team was dysfunctional. That for all sorts of reasons that there
00:14:15
were silos that the board of governors or I think they call it a court in Scotland didn't
00:14:21
seem to exercise very much challenge function. So, they were receiving management accounts, but they didn't
00:14:27
push back and ask why. >> Right. >> And so consequently, when it became
00:14:31
clear that they were running out of money, it was only it was possible to look back
00:14:36
and see the opportunities they had had to intervene and had just not intervened cuz they didn't have the information and
00:14:42
hadn't challenged why they hadn't got it. >> Do you think that comes down to
00:14:47
obviously you don't know all the facts, but personalities that are sat in those
00:14:51
positions or is it something else? Could it be more culture? I know you said you
00:14:54
have a very open culture. >> I think it's partly culture. I think it's partly the skill and experience
00:14:59
that board members bring. Very few trustees, governors, members of council, whatever you want to call them,
00:15:07
in HE are remunerated. So, they are doing it to put something back. It doesn't necessarily mean to say that
00:15:15
they bring with them the time or the skills required to oversee the running of a multi-million
00:15:22
pound business. >> I presume many of them come from academia. >> I think that might depend on a leader as
00:15:27
to to what you want. I don't have any current academics on the board at but but but my previous institution, the
00:15:35
Australian National University, that that had an external academic on it. You do have
00:15:41
staff members on on your board always. I'm not sure how much having been an academic
00:15:48
is that useful. You need people with HR skills. You need people with audit and finance skills. You need people with
00:15:56
risk management skills to be able to say to you, "This is far too risky." Or
00:16:01
you're being far too conservative here. >> Mhm. >> So I mean quite candidly, one of the
00:16:05
issues that I've encountered in the last 18 months, my first 18 months at Birkbeck, is the quality of our
00:16:11
forecasting. Uh with governors quite rightly saying to us, "Your forecasting, you need to adjust
00:16:18
how you do this." One of the crises you face every September is the quality of your
00:16:24
forecasting has not prepared you for the financial position you're going into.
00:16:28
And we've worked very hard on that. >> Do you think that um there's a
00:16:33
perception maybe that going into being a higher education leader um is in some way
00:16:41
I don't know, maybe not as challenging as a corporate and therefore you don't
00:16:45
have to deal with as many kind of complex issues. Although from what you're saying, there's some highly
00:16:50
complex issues and risk management, if that's top of the agenda as to what somebody needs to be good at, that's not
00:16:55
something you learn overnight. You can't just turn up and be good at that. >> So what I get from sort of friends
00:17:03
outside HE, family members sometimes, is So students turn up in September. They stay either for 3 years or 1 year.
00:17:11
They do a program with you. They get a degree and leave. How hard can that be? So I do think that that obviously in
00:17:19
that respect, it's not like running Tesco's. But, it is more complex than it looks
00:17:23
from the outside. There are lots of external political shocks. There are lots of potential economic
00:17:30
shocks that you might not know about. And then there are simply changes in student demand.
00:17:37
The external employment market always uh sets part of the scene. That can change
00:17:43
very, very quickly, and that can affect demand very quickly. And unlike Tesco's,
00:17:49
if you have a lot of academics in languages, and all of a sudden the subject that takes off is environment
00:17:54
and sustainability, you can't just move them across and ask them to do that.
00:18:00
>> Do you find that some students then, as well as the student demand being an
00:18:03
issue, it's the teachers on particular courses that people want to join, that
00:18:09
be taught by particular academics, in which case if those people leave, you have a different you have a key person
00:18:14
key man um issue? >> That's part certainly the case for postgraduates.
00:18:20
It's increasingly difficult to fill gaps where you have downsized to fit a particular economic
00:18:27
situation with staff that are not contracted to you. Simply because quite rightly, they turn up, they teach
00:18:37
the hour that they're paid for, they do the marking that they're paid for, but
00:18:41
you're not paying them to engage with your wider systems, and they will be working elsewhere. They don't have time
00:18:46
to do that. So, one of the issues then is when they're asked questions and all
00:18:51
they have to say I just don't I simply don't know. That is not a good feel for
00:18:55
students. Creates uncertainty for students. Students don't like uncertainty.
00:19:00
>> And I guess that's the same as having an organization of any type that is run
00:19:04
largely by contractors. They don't understand how things work in reality, and maybe they don't create the same
00:19:11
level of culture cuz they don't they're not around as much. They don't need to
00:19:14
contribute in quite the same way. >> It's very difficult for I mean well, I
00:19:19
suppose for some hourly paid academics, that's what they want. They might well
00:19:22
have a job elsewhere and they're just topping up. But for quite a lot of people, casualization is not a good
00:19:27
thing. Hard to build careers out of casualization. Systems change, you're not part of that change.
00:19:34
Uh so, you don't necessarily understand what's going on. It's difficult to do
00:19:37
the sorts of things that we probably do, credit cards, mortgages, that sort of thing.
00:19:41
>> And universities are often said to operate in a state of permanent cash
00:19:46
crisis. We've just been talking about that. How does that shape the role of governance?
00:19:50
>> I think it shapes it because you have to constantly be looking at not just uh cost control, but also what
00:19:58
you can uh spend. And you need to constantly keep investing in facilities, constantly
00:20:06
looking at your backlog maintenance. You've obviously got your statutory duties around health and safe safety.
00:20:14
You've also got well-being for students. There's a lot of support that students
00:20:18
and staff need outside of the classroom. You've got to invest in those. But at
00:20:21
the same time, you've got to control your costs. So, you're constantly, it seems
00:20:26
it's almost like a game of chess. You're constantly moving things around, looking
00:20:30
at what you can automate or what you can put through AI, not necessarily to to remove people out of jobs, but so that
00:20:40
you can take some of the weight from them so that they can major on other things.
00:20:44
>> Mhm. Make things more efficient. >> Yes. >> How do boards and leaders balance that
00:20:49
reliance on tuition fees, international students, and also that kind of patchwork funding?
00:20:56
>> Well, I think now there is a general acceptance from boards and leaders, it's
00:20:59
not enough. And it's about how you can safely assemble commercial income. How can you
00:21:07
come up with a plan for things that are sustainable? You need your board to be across all of the risks.
00:21:16
And we spend a lot of time, particularly in light of the Dundee episode now, thinking
00:21:24
have we have we given our governors enough information in order for them to be able to say yes
00:21:31
or no? >> And just talking a little bit more about the board setup, how does that work in higher education?
00:21:39
Are they all external? I know you said about other kind of members. How what's
00:21:44
the composition like? >> The composition is is you have a a majority of external members. You do
00:21:50
your normal board skills matrix to find out what skills they have and look to build in areas which you
00:21:57
think are crucial. You have all your normal subcommittees, so I have audit, finance, estates, um
00:22:05
digital and infrastructure. >> And who from the university sits on the board?
00:22:12
>> Well, I do. Uh my I call him CFO plus cuz I don't have a COO. So, he does.
00:22:21
On the main board of governors uh the leadership team for other boards, so for for the audit
00:22:27
uh for the audit board, we would invite in then um the deputy vice chancellor for
00:22:32
education or the deputy who who's ever whoever's work is under scrutiny at that
00:22:37
particular time. >> And do you have um specific requirements for people to have
00:22:44
education background to be able to be on on the board? >> No, we don't. We we look to try and find
00:22:50
someone. Like all boards, you're looking for that mix, but you don't want someone
00:22:54
who's necessarily an expert in education. You want someone who's interested in education and you're
00:23:01
looking for the same skills, ability to assimilate large amounts of information quickly and make a decision. So, you
00:23:09
want a board that's conservative but not too conservative. >> And it must be um as it is with most
00:23:15
people that are kind of the difference between executive and non-executive directors, obviously you're you sit in
00:23:20
an executive position. It must be challenging sometimes to have non-executive directors in there talking
00:23:26
to you, challenging you, um kind of that don't [snorts] have the lived experience that you do of
00:23:31
actually working in that in academia. Do you find that or is that something you haven't come across?
00:23:37
>> I've No, I've come round to really value their challenge. That those often very
00:23:43
simple questions really make you think. I've been in board situations where there has really been very little
00:23:50
challenge. And and that is monumentally unhelpful. >> And then you everyone gets carried along
00:23:57
with the wave and >> And everyone just assumes that because they thought it was right at a
00:24:01
particular time, it continues to be the right decision. No one interrogates it. No one questions it.
00:24:08
And if it was the wrong decision, I've been in situations where it's been
00:24:12
catastrophically wrong. Makes for a very difficult situation. >> And do you find um
00:24:19
that the the kind of the non-academics or the non-executives that are on the board
00:24:24
that they are supportive of you know the way that you operate and the way that you work. I know sometimes that can be a
00:24:31
a big challenge um on corporate boards. >> I think the board that I currently have
00:24:36
at Birkbeck is is very supportive of of what I'm trying to do. But I hear from
00:24:41
other VCs that they don't necessarily think the same about their board. I would feel confident um
00:24:49
speaking to the the chair of Birkbeck governors about anything that I was concerned about and know that they would
00:24:56
make time for me. And I also feel confident that they don't interfere unduly and cross
00:25:03
that line between essentially stewardship and management, but I know that is not true for everybody, for all
00:25:12
all VCs. And really the last thing you want is a board member who's focusing on
00:25:17
one particular thing, driving one particular agenda, which then becomes bigger than Ben-Hur, crowds out other
00:25:24
things you should be looking at. >> Yeah, absolutely. And how do these pressures, in your
00:25:31
view, compared to kind of corporate boards? Cuz this sounds all very similar to me.
00:25:36
>> Well, I've never been on a corporate board. I've been I've been a high school
00:25:40
secondary school governor. Uh well, again, we didn't have any money. I I would think that they are
00:25:45
pretty similar. Also, we're all on 5-year contracts. So, if things aren't going well, you
00:25:53
won't be looking at another contract. And if things are not uh not are not going really well,
00:26:00
it's not that big a deal to pay you off. >> Mhm. >> So, we used to see the average tenure of
00:26:05
VCs being 7 or 8 years. Now, it's down to 4 years. That's people finishing within 5 years,
00:26:12
people moving on to another institution within within 5 years. I remember when I
00:26:18
first thought about looking for a VCs job, a headhunter in Australia said to me, "Well,
00:26:24
the thing is, there are always more people looking for a VCs job than there are VCs." I'm not sure that's true now.
00:26:32
>> And what's the tenure like for the non-executives that are on the board?
00:26:36
>> They're So, all leadership team people will be on 5-year contracts.
00:26:39
>> all are. Okay. >> Yes. They They might have underlying posts. So, if it if they step down from that
00:26:45
post, they'll go back to being a professor in whatever. Most people don't want to do that. They
00:26:51
might do it while they look for something else. But most VCs are just on a straight
00:26:56
5-year contract. >> Mhm. Which essentially puts the executives and the non-exec directors on
00:27:02
a equivalent level, which is not the same as in corporate. >> Right. Okay.
00:27:06
>> Um but that that's interesting. Um because then everybody has the potential renewal, whereas executives in
00:27:12
corporate tend to be on just an employed contract, so they they're there permanently until someone says that
00:27:18
they're not. >> Well, that used to be the case for VCs, but it changed a few years ago.
00:27:22
>> Universities are increasingly expected to be providers of mental health and
00:27:28
well-being support as well as everything else academic. How does that change the
00:27:32
role of governance? >> It changes the role of governance in the sense that we're not looking just at
00:27:38
processing students through to an outcome. It means we're looking at providing a
00:27:45
bigger range of services. We're looking at employing different people. So, we'll employ people from counseling
00:27:52
backgrounds. We'll employ people from social work backgrounds. We have a different employment force
00:27:59
uh workforce. And we need to be able to identify for students areas of high risk as well.
00:28:06
So, um we have particular rules around CCTV, around sort of a So, keeping students safe and and well. So, we're
00:28:15
much more interested in student outcomes. And by that I mean something broader than just have they completed
00:28:22
their degree or not. >> And where does governance draw that line between pastoral care and academic
00:28:27
mission? >> That's a really interesting question. I think it's it's it is very difficult.
00:28:34
Um and I think it varies across universities. If you're running a campus university, where essentially what
00:28:41
you're offering is a boarding school type experience to 18-year-olds, I think your interventions and are very
00:28:49
different. They have parents, families, a location that they've come from. The
00:28:54
vast majority of students in non-residential universities are running their own homes or living at home with
00:29:00
with their parents. Um you need a a range of different interventions there. >> Are those sorts of conversations things
00:29:08
that the leadership team actively get involved in or is it something that's just dealt with by a sub-department?
00:29:13
>> No, they are things that we get involved in. We need to know where students are
00:29:19
experiencing pressure. You need to think about what how you set your assessment cycles, what sort of
00:29:25
assessments, what sort of library access, how you timetable things. All of those things
00:29:32
they're designed as well for student for student success, but they they're also
00:29:36
key well-being concerns. Are there particular pressure points, things that students are going to find difficult?
00:29:42
>> You've spoken about the skills gap in university boards. What do you think
00:29:47
is missing today and why does it matter? >> Amongst a lot of boards, there is
00:29:53
a risk appetite missing. That either they don't challenge and so executives take too much risk.
00:30:02
Or they themselves are too conservative and constant constantly think that we'll
00:30:07
just recruit more domestic students or more international students to our campus and everything will be okay.
00:30:14
And of course we'd all like to do that. We can't all do that and so everything
00:30:19
won't all be okay. >> And how do academic perspectives and that kind of business expertise clash or
00:30:27
maybe complement each other when talking about the board? >> So I think it's quite interesting that
00:30:31
academics are usually appointed because they've been good at thing A. But of course when they come to sit on a
00:30:38
board, take on a a leadership position at the top of the organization, they'd probably never do
00:30:44
thing A again, and they're just expected to pick up thing B and thing C. I think universities have become better
00:30:53
at recognizing that people need specialized management training just to be able to process information, present
00:31:00
information, understand risk and sustainability. But we're not perfect at it, and we
00:31:06
certainly don't invest in it what the private sector does, even though when those things go wrong, they could be
00:31:13
catastrophic. >> Are there lessons that you think that corporate boards could potentially learn
00:31:18
from higher education? Obviously, one of them I've learned today from speaking to
00:31:23
you is is that a tenure, a fixed tenure on executives, because then they have to,
00:31:28
you know, ship up or ship out, essentially. >> I think a fixed tenure is very good
00:31:35
in terms of how you process ideas. If you stay too long, you you squash other people's ideas. You also reject
00:31:45
ideas that you might have tried without recognizing context has changed. As soon
00:31:50
as you do either of those things, it's time you should know it's time to move
00:31:53
on. A 5-year deadline really really pushes it for you. Makes it absolutely clear
00:32:01
the time frame in which you have to achieve results. >> With With everyone essentially being up
00:32:08
for re-election, as the school of that, that obviously creates a lot of turnover
00:32:14
on the board. How is that managed, particularly if lots have joined at the same time, then they'll leave at the
00:32:18
same time? >> Well, you should you should set things up so it rotates. So, at Birkbeck,
00:32:23
non-execs do periods of 3 years. Uh they can renew, and we can renew with a maximum of 9 years.
00:32:32
And for executives, it's 5 years renewable, but regular performance reviews should indicate the way in which
00:32:41
you're going. And academics get, just as they would in corporate, annual appraisals every year. So, it
00:32:46
shouldn't come as a It shouldn't come as a surprise. >> What's kind of the average tenure? Do
00:32:51
people tend to get reappointed after the 5 years if you're a VC? Is that kind of
00:32:55
normal? >> It used to be. I think it's less normal now. Partly, that's the pressure of the
00:33:00
job. People don't want to do it. It's partly people who've done well moving on
00:33:03
for a bigger job. Uh and it's partly boards thinking, we need to try something else.
00:33:09
>> And if you look at the future, how do you see the role of governance shaping
00:33:14
universities and society over the next decade? >> That's a very interesting question.
00:33:20
I think governance will become much more intrusive than it currently is. Not least because it's so much easier to
00:33:30
get information than it used to be. So, if the board asks you, what is your figure for
00:33:36
turnover of cleaners, for example, you can just go and get it straight away. What percentage of your students are
00:33:43
debtors after 6 months? Again, that's easily available. So, it's perfectly possible for
00:33:50
governors to become more informed. I think also in universities in particular, the
00:33:56
stakes are higher because the chances of failure are so much higher. So, things will have to become more
00:34:02
interventionist. >> And looking at AI, for instance, how do you think that
00:34:09
that might change how your board operates into the future? >> Well, we've already started doing all of
00:34:15
our board minutes through AI as a first cut, which frees up the governance team,
00:34:20
which is quite small, to do other things. It means that I I think recording of decisions, tabulating
00:34:28
decisions, distribution of what people need to do for the next All of that becomes so much easier.
00:34:35
Uh and that's quite exciting because you can you can do more things with that.
00:34:39
>> It was great to understand a bit more about higher education. Meeting her as a
00:34:45
person was fantastic. Um she had such a warmth about her and was so open to having candid conversations about some
00:34:53
of the struggles she's facing at the moment within universities, um but also
00:34:57
beyond that looking at the future of academia and higher education was really insightful. That's it for this episode
00:35:04
of Grit in the Boardroom. Thanks to Sally for sharing her story with honesty and insight, and thank you for
00:35:10
listening. If you found this conversation valuable, please follow the show and share it with someone who leads
00:35:15
through complexity. Until next time, stay thoughtful, stay brave, and stay in the room.
00:35:22
>> [music]