00:00:00
What's good my ex-homies? It's your boy
00:00:01
Jacob Gooden. We are back for another
00:00:03
week of the exhomeschoolers club. That's
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right, the best exhomeschooler podcast
00:00:08
this side of the internet. And uh I'm
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excited for this one, man. This week
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I've got a new exhome friend, Noah. He's
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on the show. Oh my gosh, this
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conversation was so much fun. It was
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like two old friends. You know when you
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like hang out with an old friend and it
00:00:20
feels like 5 minutes have gone by, but
00:00:21
it's actually been like 6 hours. That's
00:00:23
how this conversation went. Okay, it was
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just so much fun. We talk all about
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Noah's childhood and his upbringing.
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homeschool experience, but we talk a lot
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and I mean a lot about art and
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creativity, the creative expression,
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things that him and I are just very
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passionate about and uh it was just so
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much fun. It like it was hard to end it.
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It was that much fun. But I hope you
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guys will enjoy it as much as uh I
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enjoyed having this conversation. But
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before I turn it over to past me, I just
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want to ask one favor of you guys. I've
00:00:50
got a newsletter. It comes out every two
00:00:52
weeks to your inbox. It's just little
00:00:54
updates of like what what the show's
00:00:56
doing, maybe what you missed, some of
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the books I'm reading, some of the
00:00:59
resources I find, I don't know, other
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little tidbits and things that happened
00:01:02
in my life. So, if you wouldn't mind, go
00:01:04
down first link in the description and
00:01:06
sign up for my email newsletter. And
00:01:08
with that, I'm going to turn it over to
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past me.
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[Music]
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>> Well, Noah, we're here. Oh my gosh, it's
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a pleasure to have you on. Um, I'm so
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stoked you're here because uh we got
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connected kind of through Janev and uh
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and through your book that just came out
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that I I made a video on, but mixed up
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metaphors you illustrated and and um
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>> yeah, I just knew I kind of wanted to
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have you on the show. You just seem like
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a fun guy and and so anyway, welcome to
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the X Homeschoolers Club.
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>> Happy to be here. Thanks for uh having
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me. Yeah, when Janev uh when I listened
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to the podcast, well, she also told me
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that she was doing it with you, too um
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>> before it got released, I was jealous. I
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was like, "Oh, that sounds like a fun
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time."
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>> Yeah. So,
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>> I'm glad we we were able to connect and
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make it happen. And yeah, I was on her
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show. If you
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>> for folks who don't know, she was on
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Janev Dubet and she was on a couple
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months ago. Um so, I'll link it down in
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the show notes and stuff, but she also
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has a home a homeschool x homeschooler
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podcast as well called homeschooled. Um
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that'll all be in the show notes and
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stuff, but you were on there. you were I
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think her like first or second
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interview.
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>> I forget like if it was if I was
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recorded first and then released second
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or something like that. But yeah.
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>> Yeah. I that was how I did this show. I
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I recorded with somebody just to kind of
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get like the nerves out of the way. Um
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but then I ended up doing a solo as my
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first my first episode. But
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>> Oh, it's good to test it out like just
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to see if you like doing it, you know,
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at all before you start being like,
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"Yes, this is what I'm doing." Yeah.
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>> Absolutely. Yeah. No, for sure. But, uh,
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I'm stoked to have you and, um, I'm
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going to I'm going to kind of turn it
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over to you for a few minutes and just
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like tell us a little bit about like
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growing up a homeschooled kid. Were you
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homeschooled all the way through? Where
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did you grow up? Siblings, curriculum,
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whatever, you know, whatever you feel
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like whatever the spirit is moving, I
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guess, uh, in you, but give us a little
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hint, uh, you know, a little taste of
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your homechool experience.
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>> So, I started homeschooling like and
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kept on homeschooling my entire life up
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until college. Uh, the first time I
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think I was like in a real like a quote
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unquote real high school building um was
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when I took the SATs like right before
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going into college. Um, I have an older
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sister, a younger sister, and my
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youngest sibling is a brother. So, four
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of us total. Um, and when my mom had my
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older sister,
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um, she was a teacher at a school in New
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York and didn't like love everything
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that they did there at the school, which
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is like pretty common, um, to not love
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everything at a school. Um, but my dad,
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I believe, was the one that recommended.
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He was like, "Well, why don't you just
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teach her at home and just homeschool?"
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um which I didn't find out until later
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was like kind of a new thing like it
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wasn't definitely not as socially
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accepted as it is now. Um and it was I
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think it was like a legal like not too
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long before that. Um but yeah, so my mom
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started homeschooling my sister. I think
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she found some good communities in New
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York and then uh had me kept it going
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and then we moved to Jersey which had
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even like fewer restrictions for
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homeschooling. And so we just got to
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totally make it our own. But um I in
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general like liked homeschooling.
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There's definitely I mean I think with
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anything there's pros and cons and like
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things that you love and things that you
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don't. Um but overall I think it worked
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out really well for the type of student
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that I was. Um, and uh, I'm very like
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artistically inclined and um,
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yeah, and I think um, having that
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opportunity to kind of like follow those
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passions was really beneficial to me.
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Um, and I ended up even being able to
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kind of combine my junior and senior
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year of high school together because I
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knew that I wanted to go to art school.
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I knew that I wanted to like where I
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wanted to go with my life and I had
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already been like creating a portfolio
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and everything. So, um, being
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homeschooled enabled us to do that and
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just be like, "All right, take the SATs,
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see how you do. If you get good enough
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grades to go into and like you apply to
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college and you get in like then let's
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do it." And I did. And it was a pretty
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smooth transition honestly too because
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since we did have like good homeschool
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communities. So that's like the I think
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summary of my homeschool experience.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that. U it sounds
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like your parents also like leaned into
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the things that you were interested in
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like with art and and kind of pushing
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that like my my parents were very
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similar and that like as we found things
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that we were really passionate about.
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I've said it many times on the show like
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I loved pirates as a kid and my mom was
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like let's build a whole history
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curriculum around just pirates and like
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learning that era of history and the
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golden age of pirates you know um and
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music and art and all those kinds of
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things were like very important to them
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and they were they saw that
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>> I think my mom also kind of knew that
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like you know it's a lot easier to teach
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a kid who's really like passionate about
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something and so rather than like force
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us to always be like trudge you know and
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and just like drag us through something
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that we really didn't like and we're not
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going to retain the information. She's
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like, "Can I tweak it or twist it to
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like actually meet what they like need?"
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And that's not to say like everyone
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needs math and science, right? Like
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there are going to be those things that
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it's like, "Yeah, we got to kind of like
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>> you got to do this." Um, but the rest of
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it there's so much room to like grow. So
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like, so when it came to art, like what
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were I what were you into as a kid? Like
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was it was it painting, drawing, like or
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other forms of art? Um, I really like
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when I was I was trying to think when I
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first like I always liked art. I was
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always a pretty good artist and I think
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the um like support helped me like
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believe that too about myself that I was
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a good artist. So I just kept on doing
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it because it was fun and kind of like
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meditative um before I knew that what
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meditative was. Um, but uh, yeah, I
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liked uh, I think the earliest like
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career goal that I had for art was to be
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a comic book artist. Okay.
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>> Like I did a few like back when like
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comverses became popular for my
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generation. I was like drawing on
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friends uh, Converse uh, shoes with like
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Sharpies and then I also did like
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watercolors for like my orthodontists
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and like random stuff. So I was doing
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like all different kinds of art. But I
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think when I was like thinking of it as
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a career, I was like, "Oh, a comic book
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artist. That would be really cool."
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>> No, that's so sick cuz like it's it's
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fun to like look back and like see
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>> those like dreams as a kid and then
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where where you are today. We we'll get
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into that, but like you know, and the
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things like like this book, it's like
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very obvious that like you I mean you're
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a great illustrator, but like I I was
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flipping through it and I was like I was
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like I see comic book art in here. Like
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I just you know because I you know I'm a
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nerd. I like comic books. Um,
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>> oh, I love it. Yeah. Wait, what what uh
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were you DC or Marvel?
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>> Oh, that's a tough one. I I think I
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mostly as a kid was DC and then as I've
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gotten old older, I've fallen more in
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love with Marvel, but I had some
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somebody gave me a whole binder of like
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Superman comics as a kid and um so DC
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was really where it was at. But I was
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like big into like I loved Super
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Superman was like my guy. Everyone talks
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about like I love Batman and I'm like I
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didn't love Batman till I was older. um
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>> when I got more mature and yeah, life
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got scary.
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>> Were you also into comics as a kid and
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stuff?
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>> Oh, yeah. Well, like to what you were
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saying about following your passions and
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like making learning fun. Um my mom was
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definitely very enthusiastic about
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learning and like that I think is one of
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the big things I picked up from her um
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was just to have like an energy about
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like and and a love of learning. But so
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I always loved uh Marvel comics because
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I remember reading like me and my
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brother were obsessed with it and I
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remember reading an interview with
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Stanley um and he said that he was so
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inspired by like science to make his
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comics. So like and he kind of picked
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themes. So it was like for the X-Men who
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are like the mutants. He had read
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something in like a science magazine
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where it was like the frog that was born
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with like two heads or the or the snake
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with extra eyes or something like that
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and he was like I wonder what would
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happen if a human was born with like
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wings or could like was extra furry and
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had big hands or something. Um and then
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so I was like oh that's kind of a cool
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way of taking reality and making a story
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a fictional story out of it. And even
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with like Spider-Man, like I before
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comic books, I wanted to be a
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zoologologist.
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>> Okay.
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>> And I loved animals. He said that that's
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what he came up with like for
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Spider-Man. Like if you'll notice, a lot
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of Spider-Man's villains are animals.
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Like you have like Dr. Octopus, the
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rhino, the scorpion, like
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>> and uh the vulture. Um so I love that
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kind of blending in the Marvel comics of
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like real science and like the emotional
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struggle that they have their
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superheroes go through. Um, which it
00:10:06
definitely helped like
00:10:08
when I would have to write like lab
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reports in science class that my mom
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would teach. I wasn't the best like at
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writing. Um, but my visuals and like my
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illustrations and the diagrams that I
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would draw for it. I just like put my
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all into it and like made them super
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like epic and even like wrote stories
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about it too, like very inspired by like
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Stanley. Um, and it was cool that my mom
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um would like encourage that and was
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just like, "Yeah, like you found your in
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for this subject." So that's that's what
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we're trying to do is like make you
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excited to do the experiment cuz then
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you get to draw a picture about it.
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>> No. And that's so sick cuz like I
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remember science class and I remember
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it. Yeah. There was like fill out this
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whole lab, you know, and talk about all
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this stuff and it was like
00:10:55
you were here, you saw it like happen.
00:10:56
like why do I need to like can I just
00:10:58
talk like I'm just better at talking
00:11:00
like I'm like let me just talk about it
00:11:02
you know is that good enough um kind of
00:11:05
a thing but I had a friend who was also
00:11:06
>> it's interesting the foreshadowing that
00:11:07
we see right like I'm good at
00:11:09
>> exactly I'm good at talking here we are
00:11:11
have a podcast now but I had a friend
00:11:13
who also was he was very much more
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artistically talented than I was and he
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would yeah he would draw these beautiful
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pictures of we did um we did like a
00:11:22
whole study of like trees and plants and
00:11:24
stuff and and um and he would like he
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would just he just knew how to capture
00:11:29
that in a really beautiful way. And um
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and I was always super jealous because
00:11:33
mine just looked like toddler drawings,
00:11:35
right? Like it it it did the job, but it
00:11:37
wasn't great. And then he would come in
00:11:38
and it would just be this beautiful
00:11:39
thing and I'm like, "Oh my gosh." And I
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can imagine
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>> maybe your siblings or other people
00:11:44
seeing your your science report and
00:11:46
being like,
00:11:46
>> "Oh my gosh, Noah's making a whole comic
00:11:48
book out of this." And like this I just
00:11:50
hate this whole concept of, you know,
00:11:52
science. But that's so sick that your
00:11:54
mom like leaned into that and was like,
00:11:56
"Yeah, like this is fantastic." You
00:11:58
know, cuz it's the fusing of those
00:12:00
passions of being of encouraging you to
00:12:03
want to learn, right? But also
00:12:05
recognizing that like your talents lie
00:12:07
in the artwork aspect. So like how how
00:12:10
can we blend the two?
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>> Yeah. And like you said, like with
00:12:13
especially with homeschooling, like when
00:12:14
you have the structure in place, like my
00:12:16
mom and I think your mom was a teacher
00:12:18
too, right?
00:12:19
>> Yeah. My mom had the structure. she knew
00:12:21
what we needed to get done, you know,
00:12:23
but when you're just homeschooling and
00:12:25
it's like a very much more one-on-one
00:12:27
kind of learning, you can get that stuff
00:12:28
done fairly quickly and like get the
00:12:31
essentials done and then you have so
00:12:32
much more room to play, which is
00:12:35
definitely like a mentality that I've
00:12:36
adopted. It's like let's get the
00:12:37
responsibilities done and have like the
00:12:40
right boundaries and then we have much
00:12:43
more freedom and
00:12:45
uh can make it fun and like indulge
00:12:48
those passions.
00:12:49
>> Yeah. Were you a good public speaker
00:12:51
though? I want like like did when you
00:12:53
were talking about like me being a good
00:12:54
artist in class like that was like that
00:12:56
was all I really had going for me. But
00:12:58
like public speaking I was so bad one
00:13:00
time my buddy um we were in class
00:13:04
together like in our co-op class and my
00:13:05
buddy um who we would just like joke
00:13:09
around with. He was my skateboard buddy.
00:13:11
Uh my mom told him cuz I kept on saying
00:13:14
um and I probably will say um like a
00:13:15
million times on this podcast, but I
00:13:18
said it so many times doing a report
00:13:19
that she had my buddy run up and like
00:13:21
give me like a punch on the arm every
00:13:23
time I said um and it was just like so
00:13:25
he kept he got like a good workout in
00:13:27
that day. So public speaking was not my
00:13:29
like forte, but I'm curious if it was
00:13:31
for you.
00:13:32
>> My mom put me in public speaking oh man
00:13:35
I want to say maybe junior high so
00:13:38
around like seventh eighth grade. um
00:13:40
kind of a deal. And uh I hated it cuz I
00:13:43
was a very shy kid originally. And even
00:13:45
like as a as a very little kid, I mean,
00:13:48
you can ask anybody at my church, a lot
00:13:50
of my friends, like I was just hide
00:13:52
behind my mom, you know, I was good
00:13:54
around people I knew and I was outgoing
00:13:56
and things, but when it when it came to
00:13:58
just like strangers, I hated it. When it
00:14:00
came to getting in front of an audience,
00:14:02
I hated it. Um, but I was really
00:14:04
passionate about music and then so she
00:14:05
put me in some public speaking classes
00:14:07
because like even music recital I just
00:14:09
like hated getting in front of people.
00:14:10
It just made me very nervous. And um, so
00:14:13
I did that and I did theater and those
00:14:15
two things I think helped me kind of
00:14:16
create I was telling somebody about this
00:14:18
the other day actually of like it's like
00:14:20
a persona that is myself but it's not I
00:14:23
sometimes feel like it's not the true
00:14:24
me. It's this alternative version of me
00:14:26
that I can I can kind of slip this
00:14:28
character on and he this Jacob is
00:14:30
outgoing and he can do these things and
00:14:32
he can say these things and he'd stand
00:14:33
in front of an audience of, you know,
00:14:34
however many people and he's not scared
00:14:36
and he can just speak his piece and be
00:14:38
and be good. Um, but the internal me is
00:14:41
like freaking freaking out, right? I'm
00:14:42
freaking the [ __ ] out inside. I'm like
00:14:44
about to [ __ ] my pants. Yeah. And so I
00:14:45
think that helped. And then Yeah. And
00:14:47
then doing public speaking obviously was
00:14:48
like good in the sense of like
00:14:50
>> I mean it teaches you how to structure
00:14:52
it, right? Yeah. Exactly. the technical
00:14:54
side. It teaches you how to structure
00:14:55
it. It teaches you how to uh I really
00:14:58
loved uh uh I'm trying to remember what
00:15:00
it's called, but it's like narrative
00:15:02
speeches. So, we would do monologues
00:15:04
from from things. So, I loved Mark Twain
00:15:06
was like I I love Mark Twain. I love his
00:15:09
writing. I think it's just so clever. Um
00:15:11
and I did this entire monologue that was
00:15:13
about it was some short story he wrote
00:15:16
about this guy who sells uh he sells
00:15:19
like pork or something and it's just
00:15:21
Mark Twain has a way of think, you know,
00:15:24
words get twisted or or they have
00:15:26
different meanings, right? And so
00:15:27
there's miscommunication and and
00:15:28
something happens. If you've ever read,
00:15:30
you know, Huckleberry Finn, Tom Tom
00:15:32
Sawyer, you you know, these hy jinks
00:15:34
happen in all of his stories. And that
00:15:35
was kind of the same in this in this
00:15:37
little story. And um so anyway, I loved
00:15:39
doing that kind of a thing because I
00:15:40
didn't have to write it, but then it
00:15:42
just kind of fell into doing more
00:15:43
impromptu stuff. And then people would
00:15:45
see that and they'd be like, "Oh, you
00:15:47
should host this thing." And like in
00:15:48
college I did improv and you know all
00:15:50
these different things kind of led to
00:15:52
>> oh like Jacob can do it like just give
00:15:54
it to him. He did good at this one thing
00:15:56
like just hand it to him kind of a
00:15:57
thing. And I was like okay. So
00:15:59
internally I'm going I'm not this person
00:16:01
who
00:16:01
>> goes right and then it's a
00:16:02
responsibility.
00:16:03
>> I'm not this person who can do this
00:16:05
thing. And so I don't think it was until
00:16:06
I was oh man in my like uh 20 I don't
00:16:10
know maybe 22 something like that where
00:16:12
I finally was like you know what I think
00:16:14
I'm a public speaker. Like I think
00:16:16
that's just a part of who I am.
00:16:17
>> What is it? Uneasy is the head that
00:16:19
wears the crown. Um yeah,
00:16:20
>> but that like what you say tracks with
00:16:22
what I I think most creatives feel that
00:16:25
way in some respect, you know, like um
00:16:30
like I I mean I' I've recently heard the
00:16:33
the concept of like act as if. So it's
00:16:35
like if you don't know what you should
00:16:38
be doing or if you're like I'm just a
00:16:40
lazy person. or if you have like these
00:16:41
negative internal monologues that going
00:16:43
on or dialogues, um just tell yourself
00:16:47
like act as if like act as if I was a
00:16:50
responsible on time person. What would
00:16:52
that person do? And let me pretend that
00:16:54
I'm that person. Then eventually you
00:16:55
become that person kind of like you with
00:16:57
your like act as if I'm like a social
00:16:59
butterfly that loves to like go around
00:17:02
talking to people. And I think a lot of
00:17:03
artists or creatives are very like
00:17:06
introspective. Like you have to be to be
00:17:09
in touch with your emotions and feelings
00:17:11
and have something to put out into the
00:17:13
world. And I think kind of like I I felt
00:17:18
like teaching uh cuz I'm a teacher for
00:17:21
Yeah. I don't know if we said that yet
00:17:22
on the podcast, but I feel like that is
00:17:25
a little bit like doing a performance.
00:17:27
Um, and uh, like I teach kindergarten,
00:17:30
so it's like you're putting on a full-on
00:17:32
show every single day. It feels like
00:17:34
very parallel to like how SNL like I
00:17:36
watched the SNL doc and I was like I was
00:17:38
like that's what it's like to teach. Um,
00:17:41
but it's like the second like class is
00:17:43
over and all the kids are gone, I like I
00:17:47
can breathe and then I talk a lot more
00:17:49
softly and like I not that I don't not
00:17:51
that I'm like screaming in class, but
00:17:53
you just have to enunciate and you have
00:17:54
to be loud like a little bit louder to
00:17:58
uh command the room, you know? Um, and
00:18:00
then in general in my regular life, like
00:18:03
when I'm not like teacher Noah, um, I'm
00:18:06
a lot more like casual and probably like
00:18:11
pensive. Like I I kind of I I I go back
00:18:14
to like my artist brain where I'm like
00:18:16
just an observer and I just like watch
00:18:17
things happen and people watch and stuff
00:18:19
like that.
00:18:19
>> I think that's really common with a lot
00:18:21
of people. The like the like
00:18:26
I you brought up SNL like I love SNL and
00:18:28
I think it When you when you talk to
00:18:30
people who have met SNL cast people,
00:18:32
they're like they're always, you know,
00:18:34
they're super nice, they're super kind,
00:18:35
but they're like less animated than I
00:18:39
thought they would be. And I'm like
00:18:40
because they're putting something on
00:18:41
>> like Fred Armison, he seems like the
00:18:43
quietest little sweetheart and like he
00:18:45
does these outrageous characters and
00:18:47
you're just like, where did that come
00:18:48
from?
00:18:48
>> Exactly. And so I think to your point of
00:18:51
like you put it on, you turn it on, you
00:18:52
flip the switch, whatever it looks like
00:18:54
for you, like you you do the thing and
00:18:56
then it and then and then you turn it
00:18:58
off, you know, and um and that's okay.
00:19:01
Like and it's the re I think I view that
00:19:03
as like the recharging session, right?
00:19:04
Where you're like, okay, I don't have to
00:19:06
be over the top.
00:19:06
>> You can't be that all the time.
00:19:07
>> Exactly. And yeah, so everyone needs
00:19:10
their kind of their recharge, but and I
00:19:12
think it's not necessarily inauthentic
00:19:14
either. It's just a different facet of
00:19:16
you, you know,
00:19:17
>> like I don't think I'm a totally
00:19:19
different person or like I'm lying to my
00:19:21
students because of who I am. It's just
00:19:23
like
00:19:24
>> like how we were talking about earlier
00:19:25
like I don't curse in front of the kids
00:19:27
but I do with my friends and it's not
00:19:30
like either one is the truer version of
00:19:32
me. It's just what the situation calls
00:19:34
for and can adapt a little bit.
00:19:36
>> I'm totally with you. I think we kind of
00:19:38
and some people I think would sometimes
00:19:40
call it code switching but like you but
00:19:42
I like the way you put it of like it's
00:19:44
registering what this the situation and
00:19:46
what it calls for and fulfilling that
00:19:48
need or that responsibility for that
00:19:50
that time and I think that's that's
00:19:52
really important. Do you feel like that
00:19:55
was something that you learned later in
00:19:58
life or do you think that that was like
00:20:01
building in your homeschool experience
00:20:03
because you I mean you talked about you
00:20:04
said you were really shy but now like
00:20:06
you're a school teacher you got to you
00:20:07
got to get up in front and I I know that
00:20:09
kindergarteners are sometimes a little
00:20:10
easier to get up in front of than like a
00:20:12
a sea of you know adults but um or at
00:20:15
least in my opinion they are but
00:20:17
>> but was that like
00:20:18
>> sometimes they give you those dead scare
00:20:20
the dead stairs and you're just like oh
00:20:22
god
00:20:22
>> they also
00:20:23
Kids tend to also be able to read when
00:20:25
you when you're full of [ __ ] They
00:20:26
just know like
00:20:28
>> Yeah, that that's what I like about
00:20:29
kindergarten um is that like they their
00:20:31
their [ __ ] meter is like on point.
00:20:33
Like they don't necessarily know how to
00:20:35
communicate as well, but they know when
00:20:38
you're when you're trying to like
00:20:40
pulling over on them and they're like, I
00:20:42
don't know what's going on here, but
00:20:43
like this isn't you're not being
00:20:45
straight right now. Um, I so I don't
00:20:48
know if I was ever a shy kid because I I
00:20:53
definitely was such a ham growing up and
00:20:56
I remember somebody called me because
00:20:57
like later on in my career I wanted to
00:20:58
be a storyboard artist and that's where
00:21:00
you get to like literally call the shots
00:21:02
and even as a teacher it's like you're
00:21:05
calling the shots in the entire
00:21:06
classroom and like setting the tone. Um,
00:21:10
I was like a quiet extrovert I guess
00:21:13
maybe like not that I couldn't be loud
00:21:15
but
00:21:16
>> um I just always liked people like I
00:21:18
liked and so to answer your question of
00:21:21
like did I it was the question was did I
00:21:25
learn
00:21:26
>> Yeah. Do you feel like you you kind of
00:21:27
learned that skill when you were younger
00:21:30
where you were like, "Okay, I know like
00:21:31
I can turn it on and off." Or do you
00:21:32
felt do you feel like that was something
00:21:34
you learned later? Cuz you mentioned
00:21:35
that you were like, "Public speaking
00:21:37
terrified me like I didn't want to do
00:21:38
that." But we obviously I think both of
00:21:41
us were more when it came to people we
00:21:43
felt comfortable with, we're both out
00:21:46
there. Like I was such a people pleaser
00:21:48
and that like kind of because I think of
00:21:51
homeschooling a little bit too. um
00:21:53
because you have one teacher to gain the
00:21:56
approval of uh as opposed to like having
00:21:59
a plethora where you can maybe be like I
00:22:02
don't get along with this teacher but
00:22:03
this other teacher likes me so I don't
00:22:05
need to necessarily change who I am as
00:22:07
much.
00:22:08
>> Um for me it was like I have my one main
00:22:12
teacher and I need to um like assimilate
00:22:17
to that standard I guess. Um,
00:22:21
and then I mean there was
00:22:25
yeah, not to get like too far into the
00:22:27
weeds and stuff, but I think um
00:22:32
the downside or the dark side of like
00:22:34
homeschooling is that you are kind of in
00:22:37
a bubble. And I think sometimes the the
00:22:39
parents that do that like to have that
00:22:41
control, you know.
00:22:43
>> Um,
00:22:44
>> and so there was definitely some uh like
00:22:47
dysfunction going on. Um, and so I
00:22:50
developed it like I I remember I was
00:22:52
talking to someone about this and she
00:22:56
was saying that she um went the opposite
00:22:59
route like she was like I'm just not
00:23:01
going to be able to please everyone so
00:23:02
I'm just going to do my own thing and
00:23:04
like and I was like that sounds so nice
00:23:05
and healthy. I did the opposite where I
00:23:07
was like I'm going to internalize this
00:23:08
and make it my problem and try to like
00:23:10
please everyone. So, at an early age, I
00:23:13
did learn like, oh, I can change my
00:23:16
behavior and like kind of chameleon
00:23:19
around to fit the setting or try to win
00:23:22
people over and people please. Um, which
00:23:26
even that like there's a time and a
00:23:28
place for it. Like for for example, like
00:23:31
I've cuz I think you have to learn to
00:23:34
accept the things about you whe like
00:23:37
whatever you grew up with one way or the
00:23:38
other,
00:23:38
>> right? And so people pleasing doesn't
00:23:41
work really well if I'm like trying to
00:23:43
make friends because that's supposed to
00:23:44
be like a mutual back and forth and like
00:23:46
you should show up as authentic as
00:23:48
possible um to meet like-minded people.
00:23:51
Um
00:23:52
>> but you you they don't know that you're
00:23:54
like-minded if you're pretending to be
00:23:55
like them, you know, right?
00:23:57
>> Like they'll just think that you are.
00:23:59
Um, but with students, uh, me being able
00:24:04
to, um, connect and meet people at where
00:24:07
they're at, um, that is a really useful
00:24:10
tool because
00:24:12
on like the first day when I like I've
00:24:14
taught like for an entire year, a whole
00:24:16
class, or I've taught for like a just a
00:24:18
short like semester where you only have
00:24:20
like 10 weeks with a student, and if
00:24:21
it's like an after school class, you
00:24:23
literally only have like 10 classes with
00:24:25
them. So, you don't have a long time to
00:24:26
like win them over. And so my ability to
00:24:29
like instantly make other people feel
00:24:32
comfortable and safe and heard works
00:24:35
really well in a classroom setting where
00:24:37
especially with like younger kids that
00:24:39
are shy or or scared maybe to be in a
00:24:42
place that they've never been before. Um
00:24:44
so I've just learned like when that was
00:24:46
appropriate and when that was not a
00:24:48
healthy choice, but I definitely picked
00:24:50
it up I think early on.
00:24:52
>> Yeah, that's so interesting. I've never
00:24:54
heard anyone kind of free frame the
00:24:56
peopleleasing chameleon aspect of of a
00:25:00
person as like as like so strong of a
00:25:03
skill. I think we talk about it always
00:25:04
as more of a negative, right? And
00:25:06
something to kind of be overcome, but I
00:25:09
like the way you frame it of like
00:25:10
there's a time and a place for it. It's
00:25:12
just knowing when to activate it. I
00:25:14
think that's that's a way better reframe
00:25:16
therapy.
00:25:17
>> Yeah.
00:25:18
>> No. Well, my therapist, like my old
00:25:20
therapist, she said, she was like, it
00:25:22
did serve a point and it did help you at
00:25:24
some point, the peopleleasing stuff. So,
00:25:26
she was like,
00:25:28
>> you have to acknowledge that that's
00:25:30
probably why it's hard to let go of some
00:25:32
of those qualities that you don't like
00:25:33
about yourself is because there's a part
00:25:36
of your brain where it's like, this
00:25:37
worked like peopleleasing absolutely
00:25:39
worked for me for a good portion of my
00:25:41
life. When you know, you're in survival
00:25:43
motor, fight or flight kind of thing.
00:25:44
But
00:25:44
>> yeah,
00:25:45
>> there's also like an artistic view of it
00:25:47
where it's like uh I heard this Pixar
00:25:49
storyboard artist talk about character
00:25:51
arcs and saying um like he used the
00:25:53
example of Toy Story that people's best
00:25:56
qualities are usually like parallels to
00:25:58
their worst qualities. So for like
00:26:02
Woody, he's such a caring like from Toy
00:26:05
Story like he's such a caring he's he
00:26:07
keeps things organized. He keeps
00:26:08
everyone scheduled and he keeps track of
00:26:10
where everyone is and everything. But on
00:26:12
the downside of that, he's also very
00:26:14
controlling and doesn't want anybody to
00:26:16
shake his like hierarchy of like how he
00:26:19
thinks everything should go.
00:26:20
>> And I was like, "Oh, so your bad
00:26:23
qualities are usually your good
00:26:24
qualities just in reflection."
00:26:27
>> That's a great way to put it. I Yeah.
00:26:29
Toy Story is like my favorite uh Pixar
00:26:31
movie. Um Oh, really?
00:26:33
>> Yeah. Yeah. Oh, me too.
00:26:34
>> I used to Buzz Lightyear was like my
00:26:36
favorite growing up. So, um Yeah. But
00:26:39
Okay.
00:26:39
>> The sarcasm in that I think impacted me
00:26:42
forever. Like I think that's where I
00:26:44
>> like my sense of humor came from. Like
00:26:46
if you watch it now, I'm like, "Oh my
00:26:47
god, they're just so sarcastic to
00:26:49
everyone."
00:26:50
>> Exactly. The eye rolls too. The way that
00:26:52
they Yeah, they perfectly encapsulate
00:26:55
like those characters and the way they
00:26:57
animated. I mean, Pixar was that Toy
00:27:00
Story to me is like peak Pixar, which
00:27:02
some people disagree with, but I think
00:27:04
it's just that is like
00:27:06
pinnacle. You can't top it. So
00:27:09
>> yeah, their first I would say their
00:27:10
first few were like definitely I mean
00:27:13
they were new so it was nothing not a
00:27:14
lot to compare it to but like even like
00:27:16
Monsters Inc. like the first one I think
00:27:18
that was their third movie that they
00:27:20
made.
00:27:21
>> So funny like um uh what's his name? Oh
00:27:25
my god. Who does the voice of Mike
00:27:26
Wazowski?
00:27:26
>> Oh Bill uh Billy Crystal.
00:27:28
>> Billy Crystal. Yeah. Like his the way he
00:27:31
delivers those lines in that and
00:27:33
everything and just his outlandish
00:27:34
character is my favorite. I'm just
00:27:36
always cracks me up.
00:27:38
>> Oh my god. Such great movies. I mean,
00:27:40
Disney blew it out of the ballpark for
00:27:42
so long. Has blown it out of the
00:27:44
ballpark for so long. But speaking of
00:27:46
Disney, I mean, I want to kind of go I
00:27:49
want to go back a little bit to you
00:27:51
finishing high school and college and
00:27:52
early career stuff because as an artist,
00:27:55
I mean, I know that you went on to kind
00:27:57
of work in in animation and things like
00:27:59
that, but let's let's fill in the gap a
00:28:01
little bit for people of like how did
00:28:03
you get there and then why are you now a
00:28:06
teacher? Well, like we had talked about
00:28:08
like off the podcast, we my mom had
00:28:11
known that we were going to need to do
00:28:12
like standardized test standardized
00:28:14
tests or at least the SATs. And so she
00:28:16
would do that with us every summer. Like
00:28:18
that would be our end of the school
00:28:19
year. Like it wasn't officially summer
00:28:21
until we had completed our like three
00:28:22
days of standardized tests.
00:28:24
>> Um so I mean I was such a
00:28:30
I don't know. I was like this is a cool
00:28:32
new adventure. like I like a challenge,
00:28:34
you know, like this is a whole new room
00:28:36
of people that I could try to win over.
00:28:37
Didn't happen. Like in high school, the
00:28:39
high school that I went to was like,
00:28:41
>> oh, so bleak. I was like, thank god I
00:28:43
didn't like go to school here cuz this
00:28:46
looks like it would have been terrible.
00:28:48
Um, and nobody wanted to be there.
00:28:50
Everyone was like very like disheartened
00:28:52
and stuff. So, I was like, "Oh, okay.
00:28:54
This is a a vibe." Uh, the SATs were
00:28:58
fine. I did. I remember for whatever
00:29:01
reason like I got an SAT score. I
00:29:03
honestly don't even remember what I got
00:29:05
cuz it wasn't like something to brag
00:29:07
about, but they also gave me a letter
00:29:08
grade and it was like equivalent
00:29:10
>> and my letter grade equivalent was like
00:29:12
a B. So, I was like, "All right, like
00:29:14
I'm okay with that." Um, especially
00:29:17
because I was like, "This is I mean, I'm
00:29:19
so salty towards the SATs and
00:29:20
standardized tests because I feel like
00:29:22
it's not the best way to assess a kid's
00:29:24
like skills or potential or
00:29:27
intelligence."
00:29:27
>> It's really not. Well, like even for
00:29:30
you, you know, like conversation wise
00:29:31
like that and like people skills like
00:29:33
that's such an important quality like
00:29:36
almost I would say more than technical
00:29:38
skills like do you have good
00:29:40
interpersonal
00:29:41
>> right? Well, you also think about the
00:29:42
SAT is all logic based. It really is not
00:29:46
uh a knowledge based test. So you can
00:29:49
know nothing about anything on there and
00:29:51
just know basic log basic logic and
00:29:54
basic math and science skills and be
00:29:56
able to like get away with it. Um, so
00:29:59
that was something where like my my
00:30:01
parents kind of pushed me to do I I mean
00:30:04
SATs was very standard, but like so I
00:30:06
did a lot of SAT prep and then the cool
00:30:08
thing with the SATs is you could take it
00:30:10
multiple times and then you can combine
00:30:12
your scores to get so I could focus in
00:30:14
on say, hey, I just want to focus on the
00:30:16
math section and then I'm going to focus
00:30:17
on the English section or anything like
00:30:18
that. So they were willing to like go
00:30:21
take it a couple times, feel it out,
00:30:23
really, you know, just shoot for higher
00:30:25
in a section every single time. I also
00:30:27
took the ACT, which that one is
00:30:30
knowledge based, and holy smokes, that
00:30:33
was way harder because it was just like
00:30:36
I I had got it. I couldn't Exactly.
00:30:39
Exactly. Because like the SAT there's a
00:30:41
there's a strategy behind even being
00:30:42
like if you don't know the answer, just
00:30:45
pick C and about 50% of the time you're
00:30:47
going to be right.
00:30:48
>> Or even like process of elimination,
00:30:50
like I know it's not this one, so that
00:30:51
you know, it's like okay, that's not
00:30:53
even about the question then.
00:30:54
>> Exactly. So yeah. So ACT was way
00:30:58
different. And then the ACT also has an
00:31:00
entire like you do a a written essay at
00:31:02
the end of it. And I just
00:31:04
>> I mean I can do it, but like to put a
00:31:08
timer on it like anybody gets nervous
00:31:10
doing that. So it was not really
00:31:13
>> my cup of tea. But because I wanted to
00:31:14
go to school in some areas that the ACT
00:31:16
was more accepted, I was like I'm just
00:31:18
going to cover all the bases. So um so
00:31:21
there was that. But I'm wondering for
00:31:23
you too, like
00:31:25
>> how was the college application process?
00:31:27
Because obviously you had a you had a
00:31:28
mom who who was a teacher. It sounds
00:31:30
like both your parents were college
00:31:31
educated. So like I'm sure they kind of
00:31:34
understood somewhat of the process, but
00:31:36
like my parents, they were also college
00:31:39
educated and so they understood some of
00:31:41
the process, but they had also had high
00:31:43
school like guidance counselors who
00:31:45
helped them walk through the process of
00:31:46
the application thing. In the home
00:31:48
school world, a lot of times we don't
00:31:49
get that. So, what what did that look
00:31:51
like for you?
00:31:52
>> Yeah, honestly, like I don't like it was
00:31:55
so long ago. It it just was like a
00:31:57
frantic cuz I was like kind of
00:32:00
plateauing my junior. Like I make it it
00:32:03
sounds like the way I think I'm telling
00:32:04
it it sounds like I was like surpassing
00:32:07
and I was just advancing and everything.
00:32:08
I was doing like nothing but art and
00:32:12
because I was just like I'm so over
00:32:13
math. like I got, you know, senioritis,
00:32:16
like even though I was in junior, like I
00:32:17
was just
00:32:18
>> over it and it was just getting so
00:32:20
complicated and I was like, there's no
00:32:21
way I'm ever going to need to use these
00:32:22
equations in real life. Um,
00:32:25
>> like even though we I don't know if we
00:32:26
had smartphones then, but um but uh
00:32:30
yeah, anyway, the the college
00:32:32
application process was a frenzy of just
00:32:36
trying to get in on time and I think I
00:32:38
would have been more stressed about it
00:32:39
and it would have made more of an impact
00:32:40
if I had more time and if I was like
00:32:42
building up to it. But it was literally
00:32:44
like one day my mom came in my room and
00:32:48
I had definitely been like sleeping in
00:32:50
that day and not was was not up doing my
00:32:52
work like I was supposed to be doing cuz
00:32:54
like we mentioned like at that point in
00:32:56
high school like you're kind of just
00:32:57
doing it on your own and you ask your
00:32:58
parents when you need to but
00:33:00
>> um yeah so she was just like hey so you
00:33:04
seem like you're thriving like this uh
00:33:07
why don't you study take the SATs and
00:33:09
see if you can go to art school next
00:33:11
year instead of doing another year
00:33:13
whatever you want to call this because
00:33:15
this doesn't seem like it's benefiting
00:33:17
you in any way. Um, and like you know
00:33:19
that you want to go to art. So, it was
00:33:21
like a few months and I like applied to
00:33:23
college and took the SATs and like did
00:33:25
all that stuff really quickly. Um, I
00:33:28
remember writing a resume and or like
00:33:31
what your not your resume, what do you
00:33:33
write or I don't even think you have to
00:33:35
write it but in home school you have to
00:33:36
write it like your transcript I think
00:33:38
maybe.
00:33:39
>> Oh yeah, probably to get into high
00:33:41
school transcript.
00:33:41
>> Obviously most of it's the classes you
00:33:43
take, right? And then and then usually
00:33:46
with college applications, you've got a
00:33:47
little something of like, hey, this is
00:33:48
who I am and this is what I want to do
00:33:50
and this is why I want to study that and
00:33:52
>> a bunch of [ __ ] that no one probably
00:33:54
ever reads. But
00:33:56
>> ex it definitely I mean yeah like I
00:33:59
remember doing that but the main thing
00:34:01
for like the college application process
00:34:04
that I was that is like locked in my
00:34:06
memory was you can either do a BA or a
00:34:09
BFA which is like bachelor of arts or
00:34:11
bachelor of fine arts which has nothing
00:34:13
to do with like fine arts I think how
00:34:15
most people would think of it but it
00:34:17
just means that like instead of taking
00:34:19
like 5050
00:34:21
uh gened classes in like my major
00:34:23
classes I could do like 75 25 major
00:34:26
classes in gen eds. So it's like way
00:34:28
more enticing if you want like for me I
00:34:30
was like I want to do all the art
00:34:32
classes I can
00:34:32
>> right
00:34:33
>> and to do that you have to present your
00:34:35
portfolio to the faculty or like the uh
00:34:38
the head of the your major. Um and I
00:34:42
remember I got in um and like they were
00:34:46
like yep you're at this level with your
00:34:48
art that it looks like you're not just
00:34:49
trying to like pick an easy major like
00:34:51
you're actually serious about being an
00:34:52
artist. uh we want you to be in our BFA
00:34:55
program. And one of the perks of that
00:34:57
was like when I was in college, they
00:34:59
told us that we didn't have to do any
00:35:01
math classes. And we literally all
00:35:03
cheered in the room. We were just like,
00:35:05
"Oh, thank God." Like no math classes at
00:35:07
all.
00:35:07
>> Yeah.
00:35:07
>> So, at pretty early on, I was like I was
00:35:10
like, "Okay, I feel like I'm like I can
00:35:12
keep up with these guys." And also, it's
00:35:14
nice to not have to be done with math
00:35:16
forever.
00:35:17
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, I took like a remedial
00:35:19
>> and then you have to do taxes and like
00:35:20
budgets and stuff and you're like, "Ah,
00:35:22
>> yeah." Yeah. you're like, "Maybe I
00:35:23
should have taken a math class." I took
00:35:24
like a remedial math class in college
00:35:26
and it was like I don't I don't even
00:35:29
know. It just it was nothing. It was
00:35:31
like it was like this symbol equals this
00:35:34
number and then like you know if Dana
00:35:36
has six of this symbol
00:35:38
>> how much is that? It's like okay
00:35:40
whatever. I took the easiest classes I
00:35:42
possibly could to get my major which hey
00:35:44
I mean
00:35:46
>> to do honestly like why not?
00:35:49
>> Yeah.
00:35:49
>> Why make it harder? Yeah. Yeah. I mean,
00:35:51
unless you're trying to I don't know. I
00:35:53
have a little bit and I think maybe
00:35:54
homeschooling was did this for me, but a
00:35:56
little bit of disdain for like how
00:35:59
schools and I and I teach at a school,
00:36:01
but like and this school is pretty good
00:36:04
with um how they go about like teaching
00:36:08
students like actual real life skills
00:36:10
that will help them. But yeah, I mean
00:36:14
like college in general is and I loved
00:36:17
college. It was so much fun. But for how
00:36:20
much like you you you put this kid who's
00:36:23
like 17 18 years old and you have them
00:36:25
sign up to be in so much debt if you
00:36:28
don't get enough loans which I mean I
00:36:32
didn't get that many cuz I didn't do
00:36:34
that great on the SATs. Um which I'm
00:36:37
also spiteful about because uh I was
00:36:40
like my sister who's like an English
00:36:41
major of course she crushed the writing
00:36:44
portion of the SAT and like her brain is
00:36:46
just wired for that. I was like there
00:36:48
was nothing about here on art like
00:36:50
nothing in this SAT about art. I was
00:36:51
like put that in there and I'll like
00:36:53
I'll draw perspective or human anatomy
00:36:55
or whatever but I was like nope none of
00:36:57
that. So
00:36:58
>> I was just a little bit salty
00:37:00
>> towards and then even like the college
00:37:02
classes like you were saying like it was
00:37:03
a nothing class or I took the easiest
00:37:05
classes just to get my degree. I'm like
00:37:08
why am I paying so much money to take
00:37:10
these classes? Like I took an
00:37:13
oceanography class like just cuz I
00:37:15
needed a science class to check off the
00:37:17
list and I was like why are we
00:37:19
>> I'm spending my money on this like what
00:37:22
is this actually benefit and yeah
00:37:24
>> no and I I feel you because I think
00:37:26
there's a lot of people who walk away
00:37:27
and they they don't either enter
00:37:30
immediately into the job that they were
00:37:32
kind of like wanting or they get down
00:37:34
the line and they're just like I spent
00:37:36
all this money and all this time and all
00:37:37
this energy on things that I don't see
00:37:40
as valuable or things that I could have
00:37:42
learned for way cheaper, you know, and
00:37:45
so I do think that the education system
00:37:47
is going to see an overhaul here
00:37:50
potentially in the very near future. And
00:37:52
I think I think we're going to see a
00:37:53
push back to a lot of the trades. This
00:37:56
is my predictions. Um, but I mean, you
00:37:59
know, we we got sold this thing for so
00:38:01
long that it's like college is the only
00:38:03
way to get a job that pays a lot. Well,
00:38:05
there's there's a lot of other options
00:38:06
out there as well. Um I don't think
00:38:09
always that just like
00:38:10
>> and it would be one thing if it worked.
00:38:11
>> Yeah. And for people come out of college
00:38:14
with a bachelor's degree and they have
00:38:15
to get a minimum
00:38:16
>> like level minimum pay job. Exactly.
00:38:19
It's like well then why
00:38:21
>> and there are certain people we want our
00:38:22
doctors educated. I want my do I want my
00:38:24
doctor to know what he's doing.
00:38:25
Absolutely. You know I want my financial
00:38:27
adviser to know what they're doing and
00:38:28
know how to do uh math and and all those
00:38:31
things. But there there are other things
00:38:33
that I think I think we can just
00:38:34
simplify certain things and and get
00:38:37
people to where they need to go
00:38:38
career-wise like in different ways for a
00:38:41
lot less money and a lot quicker. Part
00:38:43
of the the thing with college too is is
00:38:45
the
00:38:46
>> there's a process in those four years I
00:38:49
did three years of like you also grow a
00:38:51
lot as a person and so it does give you
00:38:54
as a homeschool kid who even though I
00:38:56
had friends and I had community there
00:38:58
was a lot of lessons in there of
00:39:00
becoming an adult. I walked out of there
00:39:01
a lot more mature than I think if I had
00:39:04
just gone and gotten a job right out of
00:39:06
high school. And so to your point of
00:39:09
like I think there's
00:39:11
it can be frustrating and I I have my
00:39:13
own gripes with the college I went to.
00:39:15
Uh but I also like I have to look at it
00:39:17
and sometimes be like okay but I came
00:39:19
out so much better of like so much more
00:39:21
mature as a human being than if I had
00:39:23
just like
00:39:24
>> the connections you make too.
00:39:26
>> Yes. That too.
00:39:26
>> Yeah.
00:39:27
>> So what did you go to college to study?
00:39:29
because you obviously did art, but like
00:39:30
was there a focus on something specific?
00:39:33
>> Yeah, it was uh the major was called
00:39:35
animation and illustration. Um cuz it
00:39:37
was still like it was a school of the
00:39:39
arts and education, but it was um that
00:39:42
there's so many different subcategories
00:39:44
for arts, right? You know, like you
00:39:46
could do digital, you could do graphic
00:39:47
design, you could do painting like or
00:39:49
sculpting, whatever. Um, so mine was uh
00:39:54
animation illustration, which I think
00:39:55
now at this point, if I was to go back,
00:39:57
it's separated now, which is great. They
00:40:00
they've grown it enough that it's
00:40:01
separate. Um but yeah that basically
00:40:04
means I did like 3D animation, 2D
00:40:06
animation, like we did video like film
00:40:10
making, we did painting, we did um like
00:40:14
ink and watercolors, we did water uh oil
00:40:17
painting, sculpting like 3D like
00:40:19
woodworking stuff. We did like every
00:40:22
kind of art. Um, which was a little bit
00:40:25
frustrating when I was a young naive
00:40:27
college student and I was like, I know
00:40:28
what I need to what I want to do and I
00:40:30
only want to do that one thing and like
00:40:32
not waste my time with any of these
00:40:34
other classes. But looking back, I'm
00:40:36
glad that I did have to do all those
00:40:38
other art classes, right? Because uh
00:40:42
>> your path kind of goes in a, you know,
00:40:44
in a weird scribbly like loop-de-loop
00:40:47
kind of way. So, you never know what
00:40:48
you're what skill you're going to need.
00:40:49
Well, I think too, and I'm not I'm not
00:40:52
an artist in the pick up a paintbrush
00:40:54
kind of a way, but but from from what
00:40:57
I've gathered from my friends who are is
00:41:00
like,
00:41:01
you know, maybe they don't work with
00:41:03
clay. Maybe they're like acrylics and
00:41:05
oil is my like that is that is my bread
00:41:07
and butter. That is what I want to do
00:41:08
every single day. But they're like, "But
00:41:10
I'm so thankful I know how to work with
00:41:12
clay because it can give you, we talked
00:41:14
about earlier the kind of like the the
00:41:17
the different perspectives, right, of
00:41:19
like Stan Lee looking at a science
00:41:20
magazine and seeing something." Um, and
00:41:23
I think that that is like a really big
00:41:26
part of like the creative process is the
00:41:28
ability to kind of we get stuck on
00:41:31
things. Like I I was telling someone
00:41:32
recently, I was like when I edit my
00:41:34
podcasts, like that is like I can get
00:41:37
stuck and I get in the loop of like I
00:41:38
can't figure this thing out. And I'm
00:41:40
sure that art is can have its moments
00:41:42
like that too where it's like I can't
00:41:43
get this hand right or I can't get this,
00:41:45
you know, whatever right, you know, and
00:41:47
you're like this is the sixth time like
00:41:49
this is insane. And what I found is like
00:41:51
when I can go and and replace that with
00:41:53
a different medium with something else
00:41:55
creative, it's like my brain will
00:41:58
continue to work on the problem in the
00:41:59
back of back of itself, but I'm I'm
00:42:02
doing something else. So for me, it's
00:42:03
like Lego or or you know, or even just
00:42:06
sketching. I might, you know, just
00:42:08
doodle and just see what can come out.
00:42:10
Um, but usually it will solve that
00:42:12
problem. But I'm so thankful that I'm
00:42:14
like, okay, well, I have some of these
00:42:16
other knowledge bases. So I'm wondering
00:42:17
is art at all similar in the sense of
00:42:19
like you know if you are illustrating
00:42:22
something and then you're like okay I'm
00:42:23
like really stuck on this like maybe
00:42:24
picking up a piece of clay is like
00:42:26
actually the solution to to figuring out
00:42:28
that problem.
00:42:29
>> Yeah. I mean 100%. And I feel like with
00:42:31
art it's like if you're working on a new
00:42:33
project square one like the first day is
00:42:36
like that blank canvas where you're like
00:42:38
I have no idea how I'm going to solve
00:42:39
this problem. So you're already like
00:42:41
slapped in the face with what am I even
00:42:43
doing and like do I even know what I'm
00:42:45
doing? Um, and I've heard so many like
00:42:48
legendary artists talk about it like
00:42:50
that, too, where it's like because
00:42:52
there's a part of us that likes to
00:42:54
create something that's new and unique
00:42:55
as an artist. Like you want to create
00:42:57
something and if you're just copying
00:42:59
what you did in the past, you're not
00:43:01
creating in like its fullest form maybe
00:43:04
is a way that you can say that. that um
00:43:07
I would e I've told students too uh that
00:43:12
it's so important as an artist to have
00:43:14
like a full life that has hobbies
00:43:15
outside of art. So definitely like if
00:43:19
I'm feeling stuck and I still want to
00:43:20
work on a project, I'll switch mediums,
00:43:23
you know, I'll do it digitally or I'll
00:43:24
use watercolors or ink or crayons even.
00:43:27
Um but uh like on a daily basis I try to
00:43:32
make sure I fill my life with lots of
00:43:34
other things like I I box or I roller
00:43:36
skate or play guitar. Um just to like
00:43:41
you said like give your brain a chance
00:43:43
to think a little bit differently and
00:43:46
like pause. But that's what's great
00:43:48
about our brains is that they work on it
00:43:49
in in the background and then all of a
00:43:51
sudden you'll have that great idea in
00:43:52
the shower or something. Um so
00:43:54
>> yeah. Exactly. and then you come
00:43:55
stumbling out and you're like, I got to
00:43:57
do it right now because it's like
00:43:58
forefront of mind. You're like, you're
00:44:00
running back to that thing to be like, I
00:44:02
know the solution now. And that's like
00:44:04
that's the greatest feeling in the
00:44:06
world, I think, is like when you've just
00:44:07
like
00:44:08
>> you like unlock it and you're like, why
00:44:10
didn't I do this earlier? Why didn't I
00:44:12
start that process earlier?
00:44:13
>> Well, you know, there's a a great book
00:44:15
called Creativity Inc. like inc like
00:44:18
Incorporated um by Ed Catmol who is like
00:44:21
the technical engineer that made Pixar
00:44:24
software
00:44:25
>> um and like the first 3D software
00:44:27
>> and he talks a lot about in that book
00:44:30
the mental mindsets or like the mental
00:44:33
metaphors that um the directors will
00:44:36
have because like directing a movie it
00:44:39
goes through crazy changes like I heard
00:44:41
once that like up used to be about two
00:44:44
like royal princes that lived in
00:44:46
castles, floating castles in the sky,
00:44:48
and then it morphed into the movie that
00:44:50
we know it now with like an old man and
00:44:51
like the little uh boy scout kid. Um, so
00:44:55
it's like to go into that is really
00:44:57
scary because you're throwing away ideas
00:45:00
as fast as they're coming to you, you
00:45:02
know, and you don't know like you have
00:45:07
to believe in your head that the and
00:45:09
this is like the metaphor that I like is
00:45:11
kind of like Michelangelo said about
00:45:13
sculpting. It's like it's in there. the
00:45:15
answer, the perfect story where
00:45:16
everything works together or the
00:45:18
solution or the pro like whatever is
00:45:20
there. You just need to kind of like
00:45:22
move things around and take things away
00:45:24
until you find it. Um, which is a
00:45:27
metaphor that I talked to artists like
00:45:29
especially during the pandemic uh when
00:45:31
there was so much uncertainty. Um, we
00:45:35
were like we're kind of used to this
00:45:36
uncertainty like this is our bread and
00:45:38
butter like to go into a project not
00:45:40
knowing where it's going to lead us or
00:45:42
like what's going to happen, right? So,
00:45:45
we kind of took our creative approach
00:45:48
and put that into our real life
00:45:49
application. We're just like, "All
00:45:51
right, we're going to start to try out a
00:45:53
few things. Maybe I'll try try like
00:45:54
roller skating and maybe I'll break my
00:45:56
collarbone doing it, but like it's all
00:45:58
part of like the creative process and
00:45:59
like trial and and error." Um, so, but
00:46:03
yeah, it's definitely it's not a for
00:46:06
sure thing in that there's like a right
00:46:10
or a wrong. It's it's more like
00:46:12
intrinsic. It's like, does this feel
00:46:13
right? Does this feel wrong? And
00:46:15
>> yeah,
00:46:16
>> which could be good when it like when
00:46:17
you get that you're like, yes, this is
00:46:19
perfect. This is what I wanted it to be,
00:46:21
but it's also so internally frustrating
00:46:24
when you know that it's not quite what
00:46:26
it could be.
00:46:27
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think something I've
00:46:30
been exploring a lot recently is the
00:46:34
like the concept of like what is art and
00:46:36
like what does like what what
00:46:39
constitutes art, right? Because so like
00:46:42
I worked in um I worked in kind of like
00:46:45
the web 3 crypto arena for a while and
00:46:48
you know I knew a lot of guys who made
00:46:49
NFTts and some would argue that's art
00:46:52
and other people would argue that's not
00:46:53
art right and so that was like really an
00:46:56
interesting arena to kind of sit in or
00:46:58
like it's tied to a physical piece of
00:47:00
art. Okay, how does that work? And like
00:47:02
all these different things and how is
00:47:03
you know, but then we would talk about
00:47:05
performance and then I started to
00:47:06
recognize and me for like what I do. I'm
00:47:10
like I view the way that I sculpt
00:47:12
conversations for my clients and take
00:47:14
things out and restructure. I'm like
00:47:16
that is kind of its own work of art in a
00:47:18
way. It's different than a trai what
00:47:21
most people would consider traditional
00:47:23
art. And I was like okay. So I think to
00:47:25
some degree everybody has this artistic
00:47:28
side to them but it's figuring out what
00:47:29
that looks like. Look, my dad works in
00:47:31
spreadsheets all day. It looks like
00:47:33
mumbo jumbo to me. It I makes no sense
00:47:36
to me. However, to like him, he knows
00:47:38
how to manipulate things and make things
00:47:40
just operate and look beautiful to like
00:47:42
him and his clients and whatever. And
00:47:44
so, it's one of those things where I
00:47:47
have recognized that I'm like, he is
00:47:48
making art. It's just different than the
00:47:50
art that like I make or that some of my
00:47:53
painter or sculptor friends make.
00:47:56
Maybe the best way I could define like
00:47:58
what art is uh is self-expression. Um so
00:48:03
that could be through dance or music or
00:48:06
spreadsheets, you know? Um and you
00:48:09
you're expressing like how you think and
00:48:11
like that's what intrigues me the most
00:48:14
about art and like art therapy is just
00:48:16
like that's where you're getting right
00:48:17
down to the nitty like the the core of
00:48:20
what art essentially is in my mind at
00:48:22
least because everybody's got their own
00:48:24
definition of what art is. But uh any
00:48:27
form of like self-expression I think
00:48:29
could be considered like how you like I
00:48:31
remember I was watching this TV show um
00:48:34
and there was like a guy in it who could
00:48:36
like look in look at your room or how
00:48:39
you decorated your apartment and tell so
00:48:40
much about who you are as a person and I
00:48:43
was like that's so cool. I was like
00:48:44
that's art in a way because it's
00:48:46
self-expression. Um,
00:48:48
so yeah, I I keep it pretty loose, which
00:48:51
is also why I'm not like so worried
00:48:53
about the whole AI thing. Um, not to get
00:48:57
into that, but I'm like, yes, it'll 100%
00:49:01
take jobs. Like, it already has and is,
00:49:04
but
00:49:05
>> uh, as far as like the purity of art, I
00:49:09
don't think it'll ever be able to touch
00:49:10
that because it's not going to do any
00:49:12
kind of self-expression. It's it's a
00:49:14
robot. it doesn't have that
00:49:16
>> need to express itself in a creative way
00:49:20
like humans do. And so I feel like as
00:49:22
unfortunate as it is that it might
00:49:24
change what it looks like on how you
00:49:26
make money off of art, but I don't think
00:49:28
making money is
00:49:31
honestly like I say this all the time.
00:49:32
I'm like if you're in it to make money,
00:49:34
like pick a different field, please.
00:49:37
Because art is like you can either make
00:49:39
a lot of money or you can make nothing
00:49:40
and it's really hard to there's no
00:49:42
guarantees. Um, but I believe that
00:49:46
artists make art because that's like
00:49:50
they don't have a choice. Like they kind
00:49:52
of have to make it.
00:49:54
>> And like I would I would do like and I
00:49:57
feel lucky that I get to do stuff for
00:50:00
work and creatively that I would do even
00:50:03
if I wasn't doing it for money.
00:50:05
>> Yeah. Yeah, I wanted to kind of talk on
00:50:06
you brought up like art therapy and I
00:50:08
know like
00:50:09
>> you know after college you went into
00:50:10
like the animation space, worked for
00:50:12
DreamWorks and things like that, but
00:50:13
then started to
00:50:14
>> kind of feel that like
00:50:16
>> pull out of that and I you and I talked
00:50:19
before about art therapy kind of being
00:50:21
that that thing that kind of pulled you
00:50:22
out of that and realizing like I think I
00:50:24
want to do something different, but
00:50:25
could you talk about like what art
00:50:27
therapy is and like what it looks like
00:50:29
for for anyone who's not familiar?
00:50:31
>> Yeah. Um I mean like so therapy in
00:50:33
general is just um getting your thoughts
00:50:37
out and like processing your thoughts um
00:50:40
and like your feelings. Um, usually
00:50:42
there's like the traditional is like
00:50:44
talk therapy, which for anybody that's I
00:50:47
don't know got a old school I would say
00:50:51
maybe view of therapy that it's like
00:50:52
only for crazy people really all it is
00:50:55
is just like talking like you don't
00:50:56
almost don't even like the other person
00:50:58
helps guide your conversation and what
00:51:00
you say by asking you questions and
00:51:03
making observations and you know
00:51:04
commenting. Um what do they say like
00:51:07
therapy is like making observations and
00:51:09
asking question. um questions. But uh so
00:51:13
with art therapy, it's kind of the same
00:51:16
thing, but instead of talking, you're
00:51:19
doodling or coloring or painting or or
00:51:21
creating or even music, you know? Um
00:51:24
which I find so fascinating. Like I was
00:51:26
always intrigued by what makes people
00:51:30
tick. That was kind of like why I wanted
00:51:33
to do storyboards for animation was so
00:51:36
much of making storyboards is trying to
00:51:39
express the characters emotions through
00:51:41
framing and like placement of the
00:51:43
characters and telling the emotional arc
00:51:46
of the story. Um,
00:51:49
which is like that is what storyboarding
00:51:50
is. It's it's trying to visually
00:51:53
interpret what's going on internally to
00:51:55
the characters. Um, but I realized that
00:51:58
a lot of that time spent being a
00:52:00
storeboard artist is like in isolation
00:52:04
by yourself in a room drawing a lot. Um,
00:52:08
and uh, I had started like I'd always
00:52:12
taught like I had taught art classes
00:52:13
when I was in high school at one of our
00:52:15
homeschool co-ops. Um, and then had
00:52:17
taught like karate classes uh, during
00:52:20
college. Um
00:52:22
and uh and was always felt very like at
00:52:26
home in that setting like as a teacher.
00:52:29
Um so I was teaching a little bit on the
00:52:32
side to make some extra money while I
00:52:33
was working in the animation industry
00:52:34
and
00:52:36
I started going to different like UCLA
00:52:40
art therapy talks because I'd been
00:52:42
invited to one by one of my colleagues
00:52:44
about this animated short that some this
00:52:46
artist had made about depression and how
00:52:47
it ran in her family. And uh I got on
00:52:51
their mailing list and then I started
00:52:52
going to more and more of them and it
00:52:54
was like really interesting because UCLA
00:52:55
paired the art, the visual art and
00:52:58
therapy like very closely which makes
00:53:00
sense because the arts have been a part
00:53:02
of culture for forever like literally
00:53:05
before most anything else,
00:53:07
>> right?
00:53:07
>> Like creative expression has always been
00:53:08
a part of human humanity.
00:53:10
>> Exactly. Yeah. And I went to one like
00:53:13
the big shift I remember was I went to
00:53:15
see Inside Out, a screening of Inside
00:53:16
Out and the director Pete Doctor was
00:53:18
there and he was doing a panel with this
00:53:21
woman who ran their STAR clinic which
00:53:23
star is an acronym for stress, trauma
00:53:25
and resilience um for kids. Um and she
00:53:28
talked about how they used that movie to
00:53:31
help kids explain and talk about their
00:53:34
feelings a little bit uh more easily.
00:53:38
Um, and after I heard as I'm like
00:53:42
listening to them and I'm like, "Oh my
00:53:43
god, Pete Doctor is like my idol. He is
00:53:45
like the one like everything that he
00:53:48
does, I just love." Um, that shifted and
00:53:51
I was like, I still love him, but I was
00:53:53
like, what she's doing, I was like, and
00:53:55
working with kids and using art and all
00:53:57
the things that I learned in animation
00:53:58
on how to frame and how to like
00:54:00
interpret art in different ways to like
00:54:02
express emotion and composition and
00:54:04
color theory and all that stuff. I was
00:54:06
like, she's using that but to like
00:54:08
connect with people. And I was like,
00:54:09
that's what I was missing. I was like, I
00:54:11
was missing the human connection, right?
00:54:13
>> And so I went up and talked to her
00:54:15
afterwards and ended up uh volunteering
00:54:17
at UCLA's UCLA Star Clinic. Um, and I
00:54:21
would sit in like the waiting room with
00:54:23
the kids before they would go see the
00:54:25
therapist and I would do art therapy
00:54:27
activities. And some of them were as
00:54:29
simple as like
00:54:31
uh draw a place that makes you happy or
00:54:34
like um and then you just see the
00:54:37
magical fantastical things that the kids
00:54:38
draw or um just scribble on a page what
00:54:42
you're feeling right now and you see
00:54:44
them pick different colors and do swirls
00:54:46
versus like zigzags and you can kind of
00:54:48
pull from that. And we ended up having
00:54:51
such
00:54:52
deep like authentic conversations with
00:54:55
these kids cuz I would just be like,
00:54:56
"Oh, that's interesting. like why did
00:54:57
you pick that color? Like are you
00:54:59
feeling this way? Because I had all my
00:55:01
knowledge of like how to create a movie
00:55:04
or an animation visually and create that
00:55:06
emotion through storyboards. And now I
00:55:09
could like read somebody's art almost as
00:55:12
easily as I could read their words that
00:55:14
they wrote.
00:55:15
>> That's so cool. That's such a unique
00:55:16
skill to like have. And like um yeah, I
00:55:20
know that's something like I want to I
00:55:23
want to work on in myself of like my my
00:55:25
wife loves art and so she so you know
00:55:28
has dragged me to a couple art museums
00:55:30
and like I do enjoy it but like I know
00:55:32
that I don't get the full like
00:55:36
experience that I could out of it. But
00:55:39
um but it was cool. Late last year we
00:55:40
went we were in Boston and we went to
00:55:41
the bar art art museum and uh and to
00:55:46
like sit there and just kind of like we
00:55:48
just sat and stared at a piece for a
00:55:50
while and I I'm forgetting what it is
00:55:51
but like I just I started to notice
00:55:54
things that I was like oh I am such a
00:55:57
consumer of art where I'm like oh look
00:55:59
at something. I'm like that's beautiful.
00:56:00
That's amazing. Oh my gosh someone
00:56:01
created that. Right. But the longer you
00:56:02
sit with it, like you're talking about
00:56:04
the like the the colors that were chosen
00:56:06
or the way like the the paint stroke was
00:56:08
or or or you know even crayons, right?
00:56:11
It's like the way that it's scribbled on
00:56:12
there or whatever. It's like it says so
00:56:14
much more about that person. And I
00:56:17
>> I still have like no idea what I'm
00:56:19
talking about when it comes to that
00:56:20
stuff. But I but I'm I'm hopefully
00:56:22
starting to recognize what you're
00:56:23
talking about of like seeing the the
00:56:25
emotion side of it that is so much
00:56:27
bigger than just like oh my gosh pretty
00:56:30
painting of a lady like you know what I
00:56:31
mean? Like it there's so much more that
00:56:34
goes into it than just just that.
00:56:36
>> It kind of just keeps on unfolding back
00:56:38
more and more layers. Um but I would say
00:56:41
like you could start really simple too.
00:56:43
Like I've done this one time when I was
00:56:45
like at a a dinner with some of my
00:56:47
friends and they were all different
00:56:49
professions like it was just like a
00:56:51
collective of all of us. Um but uh
00:56:54
Picasso he had students and he used to
00:56:57
tell his students that if you draw just
00:56:58
a circle like just like in one uh motion
00:57:02
or whatever um that has your artistic
00:57:06
voice already in it. And obviously like
00:57:08
as you get quote like as you develop as
00:57:11
an artist because I don't want to say as
00:57:12
you get better as an artist but as you
00:57:14
develop as an artist you get better at
00:57:16
expressing what you're feeling onto the
00:57:18
paper so that other people can see it
00:57:20
too. Whereas like if you only know how
00:57:23
to draw stick figures there's only like
00:57:25
this small box of what like your
00:57:28
repertoire that you can draw with. But
00:57:29
as you develop as an artist you have all
00:57:31
these other things that you can pull
00:57:32
from. So that's how that kind of works.
00:57:35
But even something as simple and Picasso
00:57:37
said that it was like you could draw a
00:57:38
circle and that says something about
00:57:40
you. And so the activity I did with my
00:57:41
friends was like we all um had like an
00:57:44
index card or a napkin or whatever and
00:57:46
we all drew a circle and then we stacked
00:57:48
them all up and then we tried to guess
00:57:50
whose circle was each and it was really
00:57:52
fascinating because everybody drew a
00:57:54
different circle even though it was with
00:57:57
one prompt. Um and that's kind of art
00:57:59
therapy in a nutshell. just like, oh,
00:58:01
you can tell who did what and you, what
00:58:04
I love about it, too, is like so much of
00:58:06
it, and I learned this actually in the
00:58:08
industry, was that when you're trying to
00:58:10
figure out if things are like right or
00:58:14
wrong, it's an internal like feeling
00:58:18
that you get in your head like you can
00:58:21
probably and I don't know if you've ever
00:58:23
read that book Blink by Malcolm
00:58:24
Gladwell.
00:58:25
>> I have not read that one, but I it's on
00:58:26
my it's on my to read list. Yeah, I re I
00:58:29
talk about that book all the time just
00:58:30
because it's so much in line with art
00:58:32
therapy because it's he talks about how
00:58:35
our body notices and like processes
00:58:37
information at crazy speeds that we
00:58:40
don't even consciously know and we don't
00:58:44
trust it because we can't always define
00:58:46
it or logically explain it. But um being
00:58:50
an artist takes a lot of like just
00:58:52
observing and like feeling and usually I
00:58:57
feel like if you did that like circle
00:58:58
experiment you could be able to tell
00:59:00
guess whose circles belong to each but
00:59:02
if you thought about it too long you'd
00:59:04
probably think yourself out of it and be
00:59:05
like oh this is probably it. But it's
00:59:07
like your gut reaction which is what
00:59:09
that book blink is all about too is like
00:59:10
so good because
00:59:11
>> well and so many people always say the
00:59:13
the thing about the gut reaction right
00:59:14
it's like you know when you when you
00:59:16
have to make a big decision for instance
00:59:18
what does the gut say like what is the
00:59:19
like if you have a split second to like
00:59:21
answer it what does your gut say and
00:59:23
usually that's the right answer. Um, and
00:59:26
so that's an interesting observation
00:59:28
with the the circles is like the more
00:59:30
you think about it, the more you're
00:59:31
going to be second guessing like, h,
00:59:32
maybe this is this guy, this is so and
00:59:35
so's, I don't know, you know, but it but
00:59:37
usually right off the rip, you might be
00:59:39
like, oh, I know who exactly who did
00:59:41
that. That's
00:59:42
>> the first person that popped into your
00:59:43
head. Yeah.
00:59:44
>> Exactly. Right. It just matches.
00:59:45
>> That's how I picked art therapy,
00:59:46
actually.
00:59:47
>> Okay. Um, my girlfriend at the time, she
00:59:50
I was torn because I was like, I moved
00:59:52
across the country because I'm from the
00:59:53
east coast and I moved to California to
00:59:55
intern and like I was like, I did all
00:59:57
this stuff. I've been working on this my
00:59:58
entire life and it's all been building
01:00:00
up to this and I finally am like doing
01:00:02
it and now I want to throw it away for
01:00:04
art therapy which I have no real I mean
01:00:08
I got to stop saying that I had
01:00:10
experience. It just wasn't like school
01:00:12
experience like training, but I had lots
01:00:15
of like I worked with at risk teens
01:00:17
doing art therapy for them too.
01:00:19
>> Um, but I just had a passion for it. And
01:00:22
my girlfriend at the time was like just
01:00:24
one, two, three. Do you want to do
01:00:26
storyboards or do you want to do art
01:00:28
therapy? And I was like, art therapy.
01:00:29
And then of course my brain kept on
01:00:31
going. I was like, but like I don't
01:00:32
know. And she's like, no, no, no. Like
01:00:34
that's what you want to do. you could
01:00:36
figure out the how later, but like you
01:00:39
know that this is what you want to do.
01:00:40
So why fight it? Um because you're not
01:00:44
going to be you're not going to feel
01:00:46
like that fulfillment, the same
01:00:47
fulfillment.
01:00:48
>> So then how does that then lead into
01:00:50
because I know you mentioned before like
01:00:52
kindergarten teacher. So do you
01:00:54
specifically teach just kindergarten art
01:00:56
or are you kind of more a universal
01:00:58
teacher? Do you teach other subjects as
01:01:00
well? Yeah, that was actually just this
01:01:02
year that I was specifically teaching
01:01:04
like in a kindergarten classroom
01:01:05
teaching kindergarten. Um I've always
01:01:08
like even when I um like the first
01:01:10
church that I went to out here um I
01:01:13
worked in like the youth ministry and
01:01:15
kindergarten is
01:01:16
>> I think my favorite age cuz they're just
01:01:18
such balls of emotions and like raw like
01:01:22
they don't even know how they're like
01:01:24
they're just they feel it, they express
01:01:26
it instantly, right? um which I just can
01:01:30
relate to. Um yeah, as an artist. Um
01:01:34
>> so I like kindergarten a lot. Um and
01:01:36
it's just fun. Like they just love they
01:01:39
my students this year, they would just
01:01:41
be happy if we can draw all day. Like
01:01:43
they just they had requests daily for me
01:01:46
to draw them things and they just loved
01:01:48
coloring. Like that could entertain them
01:01:50
better than anything else. Um so it just
01:01:53
is very dear to my heart like
01:01:54
kindergarten like mentality. But uh
01:01:57
yeah, no, I had taught I've taught some
01:01:59
adult classes uh through like the parks
01:02:01
and wreck in the Burbank uh town and
01:02:04
taught um middle school age, which is
01:02:07
also kind of fun because then you can
01:02:08
get into like intentionally how do you
01:02:11
create different emotions with your art,
01:02:13
you know, and tell stories where you
01:02:14
don't really do that with kindergarten
01:02:16
as much. Um, but uh the switch between
01:02:21
therapy to like teaching like full-time
01:02:24
was because I had worked at a sober
01:02:26
living transitional home. Um, and I did
01:02:29
some art therapy workshops there for the
01:02:31
adults. And I realized a lot of the
01:02:33
issues that they were dealing with were
01:02:36
things that ideally could be taught to
01:02:40
like kindergarten age or like kids in
01:02:42
school. Um, but they were they didn't
01:02:44
learn that stuff because they don't
01:02:45
really prioritize like social emotional
01:02:48
learning in schools until like more
01:02:50
recently. Um, and mental health stuff.
01:02:52
So, uh, I knew I wanted to do art
01:02:56
therapy. I didn't know if I wanted to
01:02:57
like open my own practice or if I wanted
01:02:59
to just like I don't know go like hop
01:03:02
around to different schools or however I
01:03:04
could do it. But I realized I was like
01:03:06
working with adults. So, I was like,
01:03:07
"This is great, but I feel like I'm
01:03:10
catching it after the damage has already
01:03:13
been done. I'd rather teach them the
01:03:15
skills before they get all messed up
01:03:17
from it, you know, and like have to
01:03:19
unlearn certain things." Um, and then I,
01:03:23
you know, the debate of like opening my
01:03:24
own art therapy practice and like going
01:03:26
back to school to get my MFTt versus I
01:03:30
don't know, I had talked to some art
01:03:31
therapists that were doing that and they
01:03:33
said that it's really hard sometimes
01:03:34
with kids because they don't feel
01:03:36
comfortable because it's like a new
01:03:37
space and it seems very formal and
01:03:40
organized.
01:03:41
And I was doing some after school
01:03:44
classes at schools and I realized I was
01:03:47
like the teachers are the ones that are
01:03:49
there with the kids like 8 hours a day
01:03:50
or 7 hours a day. Like they're the ones
01:03:53
that really have a huge impact on the
01:03:56
kids and they're the ones that they like
01:03:59
I mean I saw it firsthand this year
01:04:01
being with the kids every single day.
01:04:04
Um, like you could all the goal was just
01:04:08
it could be just to walk from inside the
01:04:10
classroom outside to the park for recess
01:04:13
and like in that span like there would
01:04:15
be meltdowns, there would be like
01:04:17
fights, there would be kids saying like
01:04:19
this kid said this and like
01:04:20
interpersonal then there would be kids
01:04:21
that just want to hold your hand and
01:04:23
then there would be kids that are just
01:04:24
like I want to sh tell you about my
01:04:26
weekend and it's like all this like a
01:04:29
lovely drama and like human hum human
01:04:33
stuff happening, right?
01:04:35
>> All these like little piccadillas would
01:04:37
come up all just in like a five minute
01:04:39
walk. Um, so it was like everything that
01:04:43
I had hoped it would be. And I
01:04:45
>> am just working now to kind of
01:04:47
incorporate more and more of my art
01:04:49
therapy kind of like curriculum that I'm
01:04:50
making um into the classroom to help
01:04:53
teach the kids social and emotional
01:04:55
learning and art therapy stuff. But
01:04:58
yeah, not so like we're talking about
01:05:01
your feelings now. tell me how you feel,
01:05:03
you know, cuz that kind of I think
01:05:04
scares people in general.
01:05:05
>> Well, I think that's the that's the
01:05:07
beauty of like something like art is it
01:05:10
can also just be a very casual, easy,
01:05:15
it's an approachable thing that it's
01:05:16
like, you know, we're just drawing
01:05:18
pictures. We're just, you know, we're
01:05:20
just playing with clay. We're just going
01:05:22
to we're getting the paints out and
01:05:23
we're going to have some fun, you know,
01:05:24
kind of a thing. And then it leads to,
01:05:27
like you brought up before, the being
01:05:28
able to ask the questions of like, oh,
01:05:30
why did you pick this color to paint
01:05:32
this thing? Or why did you pick this or
01:05:34
why did you, you know, why is so and
01:05:37
so's head larger than this head? You
01:05:38
know, like even little things like that
01:05:40
of like being able to ask those
01:05:41
questions
01:05:43
>> because any kid of course wants to
01:05:45
share, well, why did you make the design
01:05:47
choices that you made on this thing? And
01:05:50
um I used to work at a a Lego store and
01:05:53
we we would do our birthday parties. We
01:05:55
would make Pinewood Derby style Lego
01:05:57
cars and race them down. And now I would
01:06:00
always ask like, "Okay, well, why did
01:06:01
you build it this way or whatever?" And
01:06:03
they're like, "Well, because it's going
01:06:04
to be fastest that way, or it's going to
01:06:05
like or I think it looks coolest this
01:06:07
way or like, you know, my dad drives
01:06:09
this kind of car, you know, whatever."
01:06:11
And I always thought that was like so
01:06:12
much fun to kind of like start to
01:06:15
>> ask those questions of like, well, what
01:06:17
like why are you making it this way?
01:06:19
Because like when I you know you know
01:06:22
I'm I'm dealing with anywhere from
01:06:24
kindergarten to you know a couple grade
01:06:26
maybe third grade or so you know and you
01:06:28
know to me I'm like it just looks like a
01:06:30
block you know but you know but they can
01:06:33
explain everything of like it's blue
01:06:34
because it's this you know this thing.
01:06:36
Yeah.
01:06:37
>> And um you know and then of course you
01:06:39
get that one kid in there that's just
01:06:40
like uber talented that you're like holy
01:06:42
crap like
01:06:45
>> you know this is insane. But you know it
01:06:47
it was cool. It's like it it's eye
01:06:49
opening and I think I also enjoy working
01:06:52
with kids. That's something like I
01:06:53
worked at my church youth group for a
01:06:55
long time and like in high school and
01:06:56
stuff like I always told people I was
01:06:58
like it's because I have the maturity
01:06:59
level of those people. So that's why we
01:07:01
get along so well.
01:07:02
>> Or I mean you know Picasso I I've quoted
01:07:05
Picasso a lot because he's got so many
01:07:06
good ones. Um uh he said uh every child
01:07:10
is an artist. The trick is to how do you
01:07:12
remain an artist when you get older? And
01:07:14
I think
01:07:15
>> instead of I mean because I've heard and
01:07:17
I've said that too like oh I'm just
01:07:18
immature. I think it's like that's the
01:07:20
artist brain in you. It's not
01:07:22
immaturity. It's like that's your
01:07:23
creative brain that like likes to have
01:07:25
fun and ask questions and being curious
01:07:27
and
01:07:28
>> like that's what I learned from artists.
01:07:29
That's what I love about teaching is
01:07:31
like so much curiosity going on and like
01:07:33
passion like you said for school too
01:07:34
that we got from homeschooling.
01:07:37
>> And like
01:07:38
>> honestly like what you did with the
01:07:39
Legos that is art therapy in my book.
01:07:42
Like you and all you really all you they
01:07:46
need is somebody to ask them why'd you
01:07:47
do that like why'd you
01:07:49
>> pick that color yellow or like why and
01:07:52
you see them like opening up and pulling
01:07:54
down the walls.
01:07:55
>> Exactly. And they and they talk to each
01:07:57
other too. That's the that's the thing
01:07:58
too is they'll explain it to each other
01:08:00
as time goes on too as you kind of build
01:08:02
that
01:08:03
>> that safe environment there for people,
01:08:06
you know, and like that's I think
01:08:08
>> I think I think too I mean we've brought
01:08:10
it up like kids are they don't have the
01:08:13
the the
01:08:13
>> the mental stops that I think we as
01:08:15
adults have the reservations about
01:08:17
things. They're just very like this is
01:08:19
why I operate the way and they will tell
01:08:21
you why they do the things that they do
01:08:23
if you ask and ask and listen. And so
01:08:26
I'm interested like, you know, we're
01:08:28
both pretty far removed from our
01:08:30
homeschool experience and
01:08:32
>> but we both kind of work in these arenas
01:08:35
and we have done work in these arenas
01:08:36
with kids. And so like as we have now
01:08:39
friends or maybe we're thinking about
01:08:41
kids down the line or whatever, but like
01:08:44
>> homeschooling today and what are the
01:08:46
things that maybe you would encourage
01:08:47
parents to be like okay hey like if
01:08:49
you're going to do this like you need to
01:08:51
think about these things whether it's
01:08:53
like putting them in an art program or
01:08:56
you know I don't want to you know I
01:08:57
don't want to give you too many you know
01:08:59
>> answer for you but like you know I tell
01:09:02
people my my stance on it is always like
01:09:05
you have to be the best advocate for
01:09:07
your child and you need to acknowledge
01:09:09
where they fit the best. Whether that's
01:09:10
public school, private school, home
01:09:12
school, any of those things. But if you
01:09:14
do choose to homeschool,
01:09:16
I personally believe they need they need
01:09:18
friends and they need environment to
01:09:19
like cultivate those things in. But
01:09:21
anyway, I'm Yeah, I'm going to shut up.
01:09:23
I'm going to give you Yeah. What like
01:09:25
homeschool parents coming to you and
01:09:26
they're saying, "Hey, okay, like I'm
01:09:28
thinking of homeschooling little Johnny
01:09:29
and little Susie." Like
01:09:31
>> what are you talking to them about?
01:09:32
>> I mean, definitely I agree with that
01:09:34
last part. like especi in particular
01:09:36
like the community like I think that's
01:09:38
just in general like we humans need
01:09:40
other people. Um
01:09:44
and I don't know the artist brain in me
01:09:46
is like
01:09:48
were did I always pick the best friends
01:09:51
but like sometime like and I think I
01:09:54
well maybe and I'm I know that a lot of
01:09:56
the parents that I talked to this year
01:09:59
um at the school a lot of it was who's
01:10:02
my kid friends with? do they have
01:10:03
friends? Why are they friends with this
01:10:05
kid? You know, and like stuff like that.
01:10:07
And honestly, like especially in
01:10:11
kindergarten, like the microcosms of
01:10:13
humanity are all just at play here in
01:10:16
the classroom. And I'm like, it's all
01:10:19
like good. Like it and not like there's
01:10:22
no problems because there's definitely
01:10:24
problems and there's definitely like you
01:10:25
need an adult to help the kids navigate
01:10:28
this stuff because they won't just
01:10:29
figure this out on their own. like
01:10:31
they'll tear each other apart, you know,
01:10:35
if push comes to shove. But they at this
01:10:39
age, which is why I love it, they love
01:10:41
they're so receptive. Like they there's
01:10:44
a saying where it's like people or kids
01:10:47
will do better if they know better. And
01:10:50
kindergarten so much like that stands so
01:10:52
true for kindergarten. It's like they
01:10:56
want you to tell them the best way to do
01:10:59
it. They just I mean they they know what
01:11:01
they want but like we had this
01:11:03
interaction with two kids where
01:11:06
uh one of the kids was a bad influence
01:11:08
or I mean they both together made a
01:11:12
interesting mix where sometimes they
01:11:13
were really good students together but
01:11:15
then other times they were terri like
01:11:17
they were not paying attention they
01:11:19
would run out of the classroom and
01:11:21
everything. One of the parents was like
01:11:23
oh I don't want my kid to hang out with
01:11:26
this other kid. Um, but my kid, every
01:11:29
time I tell my kid this, they're like,
01:11:33
"No, I can't leave them alone. Like, I
01:11:35
can't just abandon them." And I was
01:11:36
like, "Well, that's a real feeling." You
01:11:38
know, and um
01:11:42
and so the kid didn't want to like
01:11:44
disobey or misbehave, but also didn't
01:11:47
want to abandon their friend. And so,
01:11:49
they were looking for the parent, the
01:11:50
adult to be like, "What? How do I handle
01:11:53
this? How do I navigate this? And then
01:11:55
I'll do that for sure." But like I'm not
01:11:57
going to just leave my friend high and
01:11:58
dry. And I think for homeschooling
01:12:01
parents to try to tie it back around to
01:12:03
the question. Um I think that's the job
01:12:06
of parents and teachers is to
01:12:10
help your kid or your child achieve
01:12:13
their goals. Um and help them live their
01:12:16
like most fulfilled authentic life. And
01:12:21
a lot of it is stuff that you won't
01:12:23
necessarily know. like you have to ask
01:12:25
them and they you have to listen to them
01:12:27
for what they're saying and what they
01:12:29
are like kind of drawn to. But the part
01:12:33
that we play is like we can now observe
01:12:36
the these things like you could be like
01:12:38
oh I noticed that you're really good at
01:12:40
this. Did you ever like let's give you
01:12:43
like my mom did like you're really good
01:12:45
at art. Let me give you some more art.
01:12:46
She didn't teach me all the things. She
01:12:48
would usually just I mean she wasn't she
01:12:50
did do a fair amount of art too but um
01:12:54
she for the most part was just
01:12:55
encouraging like oh I noticed that let
01:12:58
me encourage that a little bit more and
01:12:59
give you some more opportunities like
01:13:01
create this safe space for you to
01:13:02
explore this more. Um and then also I
01:13:07
would say like that's one part of it and
01:13:08
the other part is to also be the adult
01:13:10
with the discipline and not um
01:13:14
uh which I think still is the same goal
01:13:17
of helping your kid reach their full
01:13:19
potential but discipline them in how to
01:13:22
do that. Not discipline them to just be
01:13:25
a good student and be like you just need
01:13:27
to do this this this like arbitrarily
01:13:30
like and like we talk about kids with
01:13:31
their [ __ ] meter. It's like I think
01:13:33
that's why kids get frustrated at school
01:13:36
and their parents is because they it
01:13:38
doesn't logically line up a lot of the
01:13:39
times and we just tell them like no you
01:13:41
just have to do this and it's like but
01:13:43
why?
01:13:45
Um, and I think if you're like, look,
01:13:47
you want to do this, right? And
01:13:52
I think most of the time like kids don't
01:13:54
I mean this is maybe like my work with
01:13:56
addiction too is like
01:14:00
most addiction is striving for some kind
01:14:03
of like love and acceptance. Like
01:14:05
whether it's alcohol or drugs or
01:14:08
whatever kind of addiction you might
01:14:09
have, it's trying to fill this like
01:14:12
underlying need. and the need isn't
01:14:14
wrong. So, what they're doing is they're
01:14:16
just like, "This is how I figured out a
01:14:18
way to cope with it, but I don't know
01:14:19
any other better way that gives me that
01:14:22
same sense of fulfillment. And I know
01:14:23
this is hurting me, but it's better than
01:14:25
just feeling like crap all the time."
01:14:27
And so, it's like goes back to the thing
01:14:28
where it's like when people know better,
01:14:30
they'll do better. Yeah.
01:14:31
>> So, I think it's just about helping
01:14:33
people
01:14:35
like do what they do like help them
01:14:38
fulfill their their passions and their
01:14:42
um what they care about um without
01:14:44
telling them like no, you should do
01:14:46
this.
01:14:46
>> The discipline thing of of talking about
01:14:49
that and like the
01:14:52
like you talked about the the idea of
01:14:54
like parents saying like, well, you just
01:14:55
need to learn this but not explaining it
01:14:57
and that being frustrating for kids.
01:15:00
That is extremely frustrating for kids.
01:15:02
I remember my parents doing that and
01:15:03
like I know it comes, you know, it's
01:15:05
something we've talked about a little
01:15:06
bit now with I've talked about with them
01:15:08
a little bit and they're like sometimes
01:15:09
it's just you're so, you know, you're so
01:15:11
irritated by like my kid just will not
01:15:13
listen. I just need I just need them to
01:15:14
shut up and do the thing, you know, um
01:15:17
kind of a thing. But the but the
01:15:18
opportunities that they had where they
01:15:19
they kind of talked about and discussed,
01:15:22
okay, here's the significance and why
01:15:23
this is important for you. And the more
01:15:26
that they did that, um, you know, like
01:15:28
that was
01:15:31
that was when I started to have much
01:15:32
more of a strong like desire to learn
01:15:36
things because they would encourage me
01:15:37
in the ways that I wanted to be
01:15:38
encouraged, but they also
01:15:40
>> they would discipline me in the in the
01:15:42
ways of like, hey, like like like my dad
01:15:45
was like geometry was important because
01:15:47
he's like, you're going to have to paint
01:15:48
a room someday and and you know, you're
01:15:50
going to have to buy paint. So like
01:15:52
giving the real world application of why
01:15:54
this is important and this is
01:15:55
significant and and
01:15:57
>> you know whatever it is and it can be as
01:15:58
simple as like well if you want to go to
01:16:00
college like you're going to need to
01:16:01
know this and sometimes that's enough to
01:16:03
sell somebody on it.
01:16:04
>> There's like the two parts where it's
01:16:05
like some parents will be like no if you
01:16:08
want to go to college you got to do this
01:16:10
and it's like okay but then I noticed
01:16:12
too that there was times where I had
01:16:14
students that would fight me on things
01:16:16
or like they just weren't doing it and I
01:16:18
was like why are you not doing this?
01:16:19
you're usually a really good student.
01:16:21
And I was like, "Do you need help with
01:16:23
this?" You know, and the kid might seem
01:16:26
really confident in general and like
01:16:28
that was this kid, but when I asked the
01:16:30
kid, I was like, "Do you do you need
01:16:31
help to do this?" Like, "Do you need me
01:16:33
to show you how to do that?" And they
01:16:34
were like, "Yeah, I have no idea how to
01:16:35
do this." And I was like, "Oh my
01:16:37
goodness." And I was like, "I remember
01:16:39
feeling like that, too." As the kid, uh,
01:16:40
Mr. Rogers always says that he's like,
01:16:42
"The best advice you can give to parents
01:16:43
is just remember what it was like to be
01:16:45
a kid."
01:16:45
>> Yeah. And like most of the time when we
01:16:47
were pissed off at teachers, it was
01:16:49
because they didn't we didn't feel like
01:16:51
they heard our needs or our request or
01:16:54
like our side of what we were where we
01:16:57
were coming from, you know?
01:16:58
>> Yeah.
01:16:58
>> Um and so like with the kid, like that
01:17:01
kid wasn't being a bad student, but they
01:17:04
just didn't they didn't even know to ask
01:17:06
for help,
01:17:07
>> right?
01:17:07
>> So like if you tell a kid like if you
01:17:10
want to go to college, you got to do
01:17:11
this homework. Well, the kid is probably
01:17:14
doesn't even know like the correct way
01:17:15
to study for or the correct way to
01:17:18
accomplish that homework and probably
01:17:19
doesn't even know how to ask for help
01:17:22
even though they may have asked for help
01:17:23
with other things like they might not
01:17:24
know that this is
01:17:27
even something that you could ask for
01:17:29
help with, you know, and I feel like
01:17:31
trying to see through all of that stuff
01:17:33
and be like how what is really the block
01:17:37
here? because I don't think kids
01:17:40
generally just like want to disappoint
01:17:42
their parents, you know, like that
01:17:45
doesn't feel good for anybody.
01:17:46
>> There's a part of it too where and I
01:17:48
hope this is an encouragement to parents
01:17:49
of like sometimes parents need to learn
01:17:51
how to teach and yes, like my mom had a
01:17:55
little bit of that she still had to
01:17:56
learn, you know, she she wanted she was
01:17:59
like, I want to be an English teacher.
01:18:00
That was like her thing. And so she kind
01:18:03
of had some of those skills, but like
01:18:05
she was rusty because she hadn't done
01:18:07
that for a long time leading up to
01:18:09
homeschooling my sister and I. And in
01:18:12
the same way, like my dad was not a
01:18:15
teacher and it took him a very long time
01:18:17
to kind of start to grasp that. And we
01:18:19
have we have this joke at my house that
01:18:22
um because we bought a a fixer upper and
01:18:24
we did we basically did everything in
01:18:25
the house ourselves. And um he was like,
01:18:28
"Okay, you're going to like help me
01:18:30
prime the walls of the house." And
01:18:33
So, because we had we were painting
01:18:35
everything, we had gigantic buckets of
01:18:37
paint, like we had the big like five
01:18:38
gallon like super heavy buckets of
01:18:41
paint. Um, and we would mix it with a
01:18:44
drill and we had this giant drill bit
01:18:46
that had like a thing on the end and you
01:18:47
would
01:18:48
>> like a spatula on the end.
01:18:49
>> Kind of a spatula. Yeah. Looking thing.
01:18:51
And anyway, so so you'd stick it in
01:18:53
there and you and you, you know, you
01:18:54
would slowly start it and work it up and
01:18:57
down throughout the paint and mix the
01:18:58
paint that way instead of the
01:18:59
traditional, you know, a wood stir stick
01:19:01
and a, you know, a gallon of paint or
01:19:03
whatever.
01:19:04
>> Um, anyway, I wanted to do it. I was
01:19:06
like, "Can I do this?" My dad's like,
01:19:07
"Yeah, of course." Tells me no other
01:19:09
instructions. So, all I've seen of him
01:19:11
doing this is him using a drill and
01:19:13
doing it. So, what as a kid, what do you
01:19:14
do? You just pull the trigger on the
01:19:16
drill as far back as you can. Send paint
01:19:18
flying everywhere. And so it was one of
01:19:21
those things that he he began to learn
01:19:24
as time went on that he was like, "Okay,
01:19:26
>> Jacob wants to help me fix this house.
01:19:28
That's great.
01:19:29
>> I have to tell him what to do. I have to
01:19:31
communicate. I have to get better about
01:19:33
communicating." And obviously some of it
01:19:34
is observational and things like that,
01:19:36
but we have to walk through and talk
01:19:37
through. And I think I got better about
01:19:39
asking questions too after a while where
01:19:41
I was like, "Okay, I really don't know
01:19:43
what I'm doing here, so like can you
01:19:44
walk me through it one more time?" But
01:19:46
um but I think that was an important
01:19:49
shift where my parents also were
01:19:52
learning to teach because we're not just
01:19:54
born with the gift of teaching. Like
01:19:56
it's just not
01:19:58
>> it's not always the thing. And I think
01:19:59
>> it's like public speaking. It's like
01:20:01
communicating like we don't there's many
01:20:03
different ways to communicate and a lot
01:20:05
of them are not good
01:20:06
>> right and so I think a lot of homeschool
01:20:08
parents they don't have that
01:20:10
understanding of how to teach and so I
01:20:13
mean I think it go take a night class.
01:20:15
I'm sure that I'm sure there's some
01:20:16
resources and things out there um to
01:20:19
like help you kind of like navigate that
01:20:20
and learn to do that because being able
01:20:22
to communicate to a kid is going to be
01:20:24
very important. If you're going to
01:20:25
homeschool your kid, you're going to be
01:20:26
needed to do that every single day. So,
01:20:29
>> yeah. And I mean like there's there's
01:20:31
definitely elements of like learning the
01:20:33
subject and how to like simplify it
01:20:34
down, you know, like they say if you
01:20:36
really know a subject well, you could
01:20:37
teach it to like a kindergartener, you
01:20:39
know, could which I will say like
01:20:41
teaching math to a kindergartener is so
01:20:44
surprisingly difficult because you'll
01:20:46
spend like a 45 minute period teaching
01:20:49
them a math problem. And like the thing
01:20:52
that you're teaching them is that this
01:20:54
plus this equals this and like these are
01:20:57
combined. And like I'm like
01:21:00
>> why is this something that we need to
01:21:01
teach? Like this isn't this second
01:21:02
nature? But it's really not. Um,
01:21:04
>> yeah,
01:21:05
>> I would also say for parents to go to
01:21:07
therapy if if they're um if they're uh
01:21:12
um I mean just in general, but I would
01:21:15
say the more I've learned about myself
01:21:19
and and this is like a some kind of
01:21:21
proverb or or saying in multiple
01:21:24
cultures, but it's like the more you
01:21:25
understand yourself and your own desires
01:21:28
and your own like motivations, the more
01:21:30
you will understand everyone else. Um,
01:21:34
and I think so much, especially if
01:21:38
you're teaching your own kid, they're
01:21:40
going to have so much of you in them
01:21:42
that you're going to be able to
01:21:42
understand them better if you understand
01:21:44
who you are, you know, as a person and
01:21:46
like what drives you and
01:21:47
>> the kind of little ticks that you have
01:21:50
and stuff. Um, and so I think doing some
01:21:54
kind of like deep soularching and like
01:21:57
really trying to understand what makes
01:21:58
you tick as a person. um whether that's
01:22:02
in the I mean therapy is great I think
01:22:04
but was something that you do to try to
01:22:08
like introspect a little bit I think is
01:22:10
so my I think um I think it was my
01:22:13
sister who told me that it was like uh
01:22:16
and she's like a school like
01:22:17
psychologist or like the school
01:22:18
therapist I forget exactly her title but
01:22:21
um she said that a parent going to
01:22:24
therapy for one year is the equivalent
01:22:26
to their kid going to therapy for five
01:22:27
years like oh wow
01:22:29
>> just the impact like
01:22:31
>> trickles down. And
01:22:33
>> so I would if you're going to be
01:22:35
spending every minute of the day with
01:22:37
your kid homeschooling them, I would say
01:22:39
make sure you are like mentally healthy
01:22:42
because
01:22:42
>> absolutely. Yeah. Emotionally healthy
01:22:44
people make emotionally healthy people.
01:22:46
That's the way it works, you know. So
01:22:49
>> man, no, this this is great. I feel like
01:22:52
we could chat all day and uh and I
01:22:54
appreciate you so much. I want to give
01:22:56
you the opportunity. I don't know if you
01:22:59
have any people could follow you, look
01:23:01
up your art, see what you do. Um,
01:23:04
classes, I don't know. But like,
01:23:06
anything you want to promote, now's the
01:23:08
now's the moment.
01:23:08
>> Now's the time. Um, no, I mean, right
01:23:12
now I'm, uh, working on stuff a little
01:23:15
bit under the hood or behind the
01:23:16
curtain. Um, but I will be posting it
01:23:19
soon like on like Teachers Pay Teachers
01:23:21
and some of these like art therapy
01:23:22
worksheets and lesson plans. Um,
01:23:25
sometimes I do right now Uh, I offer
01:23:28
virtual classes. So, they're just
01:23:31
45minute classes. You could sign up um
01:23:34
for them. And, uh, if you want all that
01:23:38
information, it's on my Instagram. It's
01:23:39
teacher.noah.
01:23:41
>> Teacher. Noah. Sweet. And that'll be in
01:23:43
the show notes as well. And then I'm
01:23:44
also going to do one last plug for this
01:23:46
as well.
01:23:46
>> Mixed up metaphors. I brought it up at
01:23:48
the beginning, but yeah, this book is
01:23:51
absolutely incredible. They're hilarious
01:23:52
little You did all of the illustrations,
01:23:54
right?
01:23:55
>> Yeah. Yeah. So these are absolutely
01:23:58
fantastic. They crack me up. It was like
01:24:00
it's the greatest little coffee table
01:24:01
book that I have just like sitting
01:24:02
around and when I need a good chuckle
01:24:04
it's at my desk and I pick it up and
01:24:06
just flip. So you know I appreciate
01:24:09
that. Yeah. And that way I worked hard
01:24:12
on it.
01:24:13
>> Yeah. She
01:24:14
>> Yeah. kicked butt like designing it and
01:24:16
everything like I
01:24:18
>> I was definitely like the aloof artist
01:24:20
where I was just like let me just draw
01:24:22
this one. She's she was the one that
01:24:23
like the discipline, you know. It's
01:24:25
like, let's get it on paper. Let's
01:24:26
organize it like this. Let's make sure
01:24:28
we And oh my goodness, figured out all
01:24:30
the Amazon stuff, too. That
01:24:32
>> is Yeah, that's a whole
01:24:35
>> It would just be sketches on a piece of
01:24:37
paper in my desk if it wasn't for her.
01:24:39
So, yeah.
01:24:39
>> Yeah. So, link to that will be in the
01:24:41
show notes as well. Okay. Before I let
01:24:43
you go, any last as we've been because
01:24:46
we chatted a couple weeks ago, like has
01:24:48
any homeschool memories or things popped
01:24:51
up where you've just been like, "Oh my
01:24:52
god, this was like it could be a cringe
01:24:54
moment, a happy moment, a sad moment,
01:24:56
like something that just was impactful
01:24:57
in your home school experience that
01:24:59
like, you know, I always bring up swing
01:25:01
dancing was like a big thing for me or
01:25:03
like I had red skinny jeans and that's
01:25:05
what a lot of people remember me from."
01:25:07
Um, but you know, anything
01:25:10
>> anything pop up while we've been
01:25:11
chatting? I had a good friend, his name
01:25:14
is Josiah, and he was my best friend uh
01:25:18
when I was maybe like fifth, sixth,
01:25:20
seventh, e up until eighth grade. And
01:25:21
then he moved he he lived in New York,
01:25:23
so he moved up and went to a public
01:25:24
school in New York. Um so we were like
01:25:27
our whole relationship was founded on
01:25:29
like that early age of our lives. Um but
01:25:32
we're still friends to this day and talk
01:25:33
often. And
01:25:36
>> he was actually the one that that
01:25:37
skateboarding story had happened to. Um
01:25:39
Okay. That I mentioned at the beginning.
01:25:41
Yeah.
01:25:42
>> Um, we had our co-op which is like in
01:25:44
this church building like a attachment
01:25:46
addendum whatever to the church building
01:25:49
and during like in the morning or during
01:25:51
like recess or our breaks he and I would
01:25:54
like skateboard and we thought we were
01:25:56
so cool like uh and he still
01:25:58
skateboards. He's a he's an awesome
01:25:59
skateboarder. I do not anymore. I can
01:26:02
maybe Olly, but um we would like think
01:26:05
we were so cool. We were like there was
01:26:06
like a big log that was just like in the
01:26:08
parking lot like as instead of like a
01:26:10
curb basically is at the end of the
01:26:12
parking lot uh like overlooking the
01:26:14
field. So we would go up and we would
01:26:16
like try to grind on the log and like
01:26:18
like we thought it was just we were like
01:26:22
the cool kids on campus. Um and we were
01:26:24
like in fifth or sixth grade. It was so
01:26:26
funny. Um and uh
01:26:30
some of our kids got like razor
01:26:32
scooters. I think that was like when
01:26:33
they came out like those things that
01:26:35
like busted up your ankles when they
01:26:37
spin around, you know. But we just had a
01:26:39
blast. And uh I remember
01:26:42
>> I think somebody that was like not even
01:26:44
a part of our group, but like some one
01:26:45
of the church people like complained and
01:26:48
like said that it made it look like we
01:26:49
were just like
01:26:51
I don't know kids skateboarding where
01:26:53
they shouldn't be skateboarding and
01:26:54
didn't realize that we were part of like
01:26:56
the whatever was going on there. And so
01:26:58
they had to do like a no wheels uh ban
01:27:01
at the school and we were just like oh
01:27:04
fight the like we were so salty about
01:27:07
it. But um
01:27:09
>> yeah it was just it was just such a
01:27:11
funny thing looking back cuz I'm like
01:27:13
man we were in fifth grade when that
01:27:15
stuff was happening and like
01:27:17
>> just feeling all this things all these
01:27:18
things. But we ended up going inside and
01:27:21
and picking up a guitar instead. And so
01:27:24
we started like learning he he started
01:27:25
teaching me how to play guitar. Um but
01:27:28
>> right
01:27:28
>> good memories and just
01:27:31
>> we all have those
01:27:31
>> being like yeah
01:27:32
>> yeah you brought up like razor scooters
01:27:34
and I'm like oh my gosh I just remember
01:27:36
yeah ripping around my neighborhood on
01:27:37
razor scooters and busting up ankles and
01:27:41
>> yeah it was all just such a vibe man
01:27:43
like and that was like when like Star
01:27:44
Wars came out so I thought I was super
01:27:46
cool so I grew out like a little Jedi
01:27:48
ponytail like a padawan ponytail like
01:27:52
>> we were like yeah exactly
01:27:55
>> um oh my god Yeah. And yeah, well that
01:27:58
was my buddy had that Josiah had he had
01:27:59
like this like braid which was like
01:28:01
pretty impressive but it went all the
01:28:03
way down to his like hips. Um but yeah,
01:28:06
we just thought we were like playing
01:28:08
guitar and like skateboarding and with
01:28:10
our little shaggy hairs and everything.
01:28:12
It was just such a fun
01:28:15
>> that's hilarious
01:28:16
>> fun time.
01:28:17
>> You brought up Star Wars and me and my
01:28:19
friends were obsessed with Star Wars.
01:28:20
Star Wars was like the thing and um we
01:28:22
would
01:28:23
>> I mean it was
01:28:24
>> I mean it was it still is like it's
01:28:26
never gone away. It probably never will
01:28:28
go away but um
01:28:30
>> uh we used to you know everybody had
01:28:32
like their lightsabers and we would play
01:28:33
lightsaber battles and all that stuff.
01:28:35
Well anyway and we would all pick our
01:28:36
characters. So we all had our person
01:28:38
that like was you know our our guy. Well
01:28:41
one of my friends he loved Yoda was his
01:28:44
character and so we would but so we were
01:28:47
obsessed with Star Wars. We had all the
01:28:49
books. We had everything. So, you know,
01:28:50
Yoda only has three fingers. And so, we
01:28:53
were like, well, you have to like
01:28:55
>> play with like only three fingers. So,
01:28:57
we created this thing. We called it Yoda
01:28:58
piece. And it was these three fingers.
01:29:01
And so, we would walk around and this
01:29:02
was Yoda piece. And we would just do
01:29:04
this. And so, if you're listening to
01:29:05
this, basically imagine my pinky, my
01:29:07
middle finger, and my thumb are out. And
01:29:09
then the other two. That's hard.
01:29:10
>> It is very hard, right?
01:29:12
>> I could I could do it. I think like the
01:29:14
>> What? Yeah. I don't know. That one's
01:29:15
hard. The pinky and the middle finger.
01:29:17
My my ring finger doesn't go any higher
01:29:18
than that.
01:29:19
>> It's kind of like, you know, people do
01:29:20
like the Star Trek. Um Yeah. Like
01:29:24
>> Oh, yeah. You could do it full on. Yeah.
01:29:26
>> I have years of practice of Yoda piece,
01:29:28
but similar to you. So, we would go and
01:29:30
we would play we would play Star Wars in
01:29:32
the parking lot at this church co-op
01:29:33
event thing and um and we would always
01:29:36
flip off. We'd be we'd yodepiece each
01:29:39
other. And this lady was convinced that
01:29:41
we were just flipping each other off and
01:29:43
so she complained and got Yoda piece
01:29:45
taken away and we were super salty about
01:29:47
it. And our par some of our parents
01:29:48
believed us and some of the parents were
01:29:50
like not convinced that we weren't doing
01:29:52
anything wrong and we were like we're
01:29:54
just goofing off like it's not you know
01:29:56
it's not we're not doing anything bad
01:29:58
you know we're not doing drugs out here
01:29:59
guys you know.
01:30:00
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:30:01
>> Let us have our stupid Yoda piece. So
01:30:03
good. Anyway but yeah this podcast
01:30:05
always I just feel like it rem it gets
01:30:07
people to reminisce and think about
01:30:08
those funny interactions or moments that
01:30:10
just happen. And so, thank you for
01:30:12
sharing. I appreciate it.
01:30:14
>> No, likewise. I I'm like, as Yeah, we
01:30:17
were talking about the Star Wars. I'm
01:30:18
thinking of all the times we had
01:30:19
lightsaber powers and like the debates
01:30:20
we would have over the movies and like
01:30:22
who is like Oh, I remember one time we
01:30:24
were talking about the fact that like
01:30:26
how genius it was that like Anakin's
01:30:29
mechanical hand looked like a robot,
01:30:32
right? like it looks like a like a
01:30:34
mechanical hand, but then Luke's
01:30:36
mechanical hand looks like a human hand
01:30:39
and we were just like that like worked
01:30:41
out so perfectly because like
01:30:42
technically it's in the future so there
01:30:44
technology would be better so it would
01:30:45
look more realistic but really it was
01:30:48
because in real life it was like earlier
01:30:49
so the technology wasn't better so that
01:30:51
they couldn't and we were just like
01:30:53
>> oh my god and I remember talking having
01:30:55
that conversation in like a fort that we
01:30:58
made in the forest too like with my
01:31:00
buddies like just So cute.
01:31:03
>> I There's all these things that just
01:31:05
Yeah. They come up these like little
01:31:06
stories of just like Oh, yeah. build
01:31:08
building a fort in somebody's backyard
01:31:10
and Yeah. all the all the Star Wars lore
01:31:13
and all the Yeah. everything. It's I
01:31:15
don't know. It's just fun to like
01:31:16
reminisce and and I don't know. I hope
01:31:19
one of my hopes with the show is always
01:31:20
that it drags up those memories for
01:31:22
people and one that then they like maybe
01:31:25
just like call that person this week or
01:31:26
text shoot them a text and be like,
01:31:27
"Hey, do you just remember this?" like
01:31:29
and just like have a moment where you
01:31:31
can reconnect with that person because
01:31:33
that's the point of the show. That's
01:31:34
where it all stems from is this idea of
01:31:37
we are not alone in our own experiences
01:31:40
and for a lot of us there were other
01:31:42
people involved and you know what just
01:31:44
pick up the phone give them a call like
01:31:45
say hey what's up you know do you
01:31:47
remember this thing because like
01:31:49
>> you just never know and it's a good time
01:31:51
you get to catch up you get to know new
01:31:52
new people all the you know it's great
01:31:55
that's all I
01:31:56
>> that's beautiful I love yeah every time
01:31:58
like I you know you talk to an old
01:31:59
friend or like a sibling or something
01:32:00
you're like do you remember this and
01:32:02
they're like no but I remember this and
01:32:03
you're like oh Man, I do like
01:32:05
>> Yeah, exactly. So fun.
01:32:07
>> Exactly. Well, Noah, once again, thank
01:32:10
you so much. I appreciate you. Links
01:32:12
again for all of Noah's stuff is going
01:32:13
to be down in the description. And uh
01:32:15
yeah, if you've made it this far, do all
01:32:17
of the internet things that you know how
01:32:18
to do. Like, subscribe, uh share it with
01:32:20
a friend, uh leave a comment, leave a
01:32:23
fivestar review if you're listening on
01:32:25
Apple Podcast. Um or a four-st star or a
01:32:27
three star or a one star if you really
01:32:29
thought it was that bad. Hopefully, I
01:32:30
mean that bad.
01:32:31
>> Yoda hands. Isn't Yoda piece like
01:32:34
There's got to be a five.
01:32:35
>> We are bringing you top tier content on
01:32:37
the homechoolers club.
01:32:38
>> You're not going to get that anywhere
01:32:38
else.
01:32:39
>> Yeah. And of course, you can reach out
01:32:41
to me on all the social media platforms
01:32:43
at exhs club uh or shoot me an email at
01:32:46
01:32:48
if you want to chat. If you got a home
01:32:49
school story you want to share, let me
01:32:50
know. I want to talk to you. So, till
01:32:53
next time, we'll see you later. Peace.
01:32:57
[Music]
01:33:08
[Music]
