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A lot of times in homeschooling
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conversations, I don't think we talk
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enough about the privilege that
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homeschooling [music] truly is. I
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believe definitionally that someone can
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be a homeschooler and an unschooler at
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the same [music] time. I think
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homeschooling is a great choice for some
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people, but it is again rooted in a in a
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privilege [music] that not everybody
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has. Anecdotally, we know that
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homeschoolers tend to, you know, maybe
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have some pretty good outcomes, [music]
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but homeschoolers also have really bad
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outcomes. Homeschooling is not is not
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free of abuse and neglect. In 48 states,
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someone can be convicted of a violent
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crime against children and still be
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allowed to homeschool their own child.
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That's an incredible safety risk,
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especially when the perpetrator is
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likely someone at home.
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[music]
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Welcome back to the Ex Homeschoolers
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Club. I am your host, Jacob Gooden.
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This, if you're [music] new here, this
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is the place where we talk about the
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good, the bad, and the ugly of growing
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up a homeschool kid. Today, I'm so
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blessed to have Tess uh on with me. She
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is a new exhomie friend and uh we're
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going to talk not only about her
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experience uh as a homeschool kid, but
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also about her involvement in a great
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organization called the Coalition for
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Responsible Home Educators. And uh yeah,
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but more about that in a little bit. So,
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first and foremost, Tess, welcome to the
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Ex Homeschoolers Club. This is me
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granting you your your membership card.
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>> Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Um,
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I'm really uh really excited to to to
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talk about to talk about an experience
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that was pivotal for me. Um, I was
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homeschooled for six out of my 12 years
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of of education. Uh, and now working um
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at CR, the Coalition for Responsible
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Home Education, I'm able to really
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center that experience and I'm excited
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about uh our conversation today and then
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what homeschooling looks like in the
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future, too.
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>> Very cool. Yeah. Well, let's let's get
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started with your experience and kind of
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lay it out for me. I mean, you said it
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right there. So, six out of 12 years as
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a as a homeschooler. Um, I did a little
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bit more than that. Um, but uh I'm
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trying to I think mine was 10 a 10 out
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of the 12 years or something like that.
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So, uh so you know I got to be a little
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bit but you know still you still got a
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big flavor for it. So So tell me about
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your home school experience like was it
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all the way were the six years all
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together? Were they separated out a
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little bit? And uh and just walk me
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through maybe like a day in the life.
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>> Yeah, absolutely. So, I feel like it's
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always important to homeschool
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conversations to to tell you uh you know
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where I was in in the United States and
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also where where I am in the family. So,
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um I was homeschooled I was homeschooled
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um mostly in Michigan. Um and I am the
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oldest of five of five children. That's
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not unusual um as I as I have more and
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more um homeschool conversations uh to
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kind of you know navigate that big
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family that that big family atmosphere.
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But like I mentioned, I was homeschooled
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in Michigan. Um, homeschooling.
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I'm gonna date myself a little bit. I
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was born in 1988, and homeschooling
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actually became legal here in Michigan
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in 1996. So, I was um I was pulled out
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of school um right around third grade um
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because my parents were really really
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dissatisfied with the kind of
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the condition of of the public school
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system. Uh my my mom talks about how,
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you know, I was coming home at first I
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was excited to learn and then I was
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coming home bored. I couldn't tell her
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what I was doing in class. And you know,
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as a parent and actually with an
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education background herself, that was I
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think really really difficult for her to
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see because um as a parent myself now,
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that's terrible when you see that your
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kids um you know are disinterested and
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bored and you want to fix that. So my um
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so at that point I was pulled out of
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school. Um my younger my younger
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siblings um some of them stayed in
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school for a little bit longer, but
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ultimately that was kind of the
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beginning of my family's um homeschool
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journey. it was right on the edge of
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being legal of of being legal in
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Michigan. So even though you know seven,
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eight-year-old tests didn't have that
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much of a recollection of of that. Um
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it's been an interesting conversation
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with my parents as adults to figure out
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the the loopholes they they kind of went
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through and the hurdles they had to they
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had to um overcome because homeschooling
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was that important to them. And what I
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will say is that I was homeschooled I
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was homeschooled in Michigan. Um but um
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I'm an auto industry kid. Michigan.
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Makes sense, right? Um, and so my family
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actually moved moved around quite a bit.
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Uh, we moved we moved to Japan and then
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back to the United States and then to
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Germany and back to the United States.
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In those other countries, um, Germany is
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a great example of a place where
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homeschooling is actually completely
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illegal. So, me coming in and out of the
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school system is also reflective of my
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place of where I was. Um, as I moved
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between those school systems, sometimes
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it was, you know, I started in a public
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school. Um, I went to private school, I
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went to an international school, and
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then after coming back to the United
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States, I actually wound up graduating
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high school. Um, I think I was one of
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the first virtual kind of one of the
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first virtual high school graduates as
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well. So, that's a bit of background
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about my my homeschooling experience.
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Like I said, it moved in and out of
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different um it moved in and out of
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different systems. And I think that now
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in my professional career, it's really
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important that I have that um that kind
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of balance of those of those different
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education modalities.
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>> That's so interesting about like I I
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knew that in other countries
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homeschooling is kind of like yeah,
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borderline illegal or very difficult to
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get into sometimes. And so um but yeah,
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I knew in Germany that it it's illegal.
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So I I'm I'm uh I'm a little curious
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like I mean you had already had some
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public school experience, but like the
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transition to move to Germany. I mean
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one as a kid is probably big shift but
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is it then also a huge shift in the
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education experience to be like okay now
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I'm in I'm in German school.
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>> Yeah. So it was um I attended
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international schools which I mean no
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language barrier those those are in
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English but it is a great opportunity to
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connect with children who have wildly
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different experiences. You know
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education modality is not the only it's
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kind of not the only not the only
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difference there. going in and out of
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different school systems was always it
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was always challenging because it's
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learning it's learning a new set of
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norms. It's learning a new you know a
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lot of times essentially a new language
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um you know language of education I mean
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learning learning new social connections
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and and everything everything that comes
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along with that. So, um, moving in and
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out was definitely was definitely an
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experience, but I think again it was,
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um, ultimately valuable because I think
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it gave me a different understanding of
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homeschooling as well because I was
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moving in and out of more traditional
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education systems. Um, I was a little
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bit more familiar, I think, than some of
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my peers with the idea of things like
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standardized testing, um, grading, you
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know, all of those things. I know a lot
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of my peers who went, you know, all the
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way all the way up through
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homeschooling, some of those were really
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really foreign concepts. I felt like I
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at least had a had a baseline
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understanding. I was going to ask you
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too cuz you mentioned so your mom had a
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little bit of an education background.
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My mom a little bit similar. She wanted
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to be high school teacher. And so when
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it came time for when she started
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homeschooling uh my sister and I I was
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second grade, second or third grade, and
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my sister was in kindergarten. But the
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first couple years she really structured
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it like a more of a traditional school.
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And so um which didn't really didn't
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really work. We found out pretty
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quickly. But I'm wondering in your
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experience with with your mom like did
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she kind of do that or how how did her
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how did her homeschooling change
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throughout that time too? Also, I mean
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there there's gaps in there where you're
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going to traditional school and things
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like that, but how how did that shift? I
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know at the at the beginning of our
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homeschool journey, it was it was
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definitely more structured and I think
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that, you know, relied on some of those
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school room mechanisms um and and
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performance indicators as I grew up and
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again with four with four sisters behind
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me um I could see how it's a little bit
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different for everyone. I think that my
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parents really started to embrace more
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of the um
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more of the unschooling kind of theory.
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um you know, I think the more confident
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they got in homeschooling and um just
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the more experiences that my family
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gained, I know that my youngest sister's
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um my youngest sister's homeschool
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experience probably followed unschooling
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a little bit more than homeschooling. Um
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if I were to really examine how those,
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you know, how those looked just eight
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years apart.
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>> And for you, I'm curious because I know
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people people define homeschool and
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unschool in like all these different
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ways. So like for you,
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>> how do you define those terms? For me,
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homeschooling is just any
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parent-directed education that happens
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mostly at home. Um, I believe
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definitionally that someone can be a
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homeschooler and an unschooler at the
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same at the same time. Um so for me
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unschooling means that you abandon some
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of those constraints around um I guess
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assessed grade level um performance
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indicators some of those academic
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benchmarks that are used with the idea
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that you know a child can direct that
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themselves rather than the parent
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directed component of it. Um, those are
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really interesting things to look at
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because I think especially now with
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virtual schooling becoming so much so
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much more common since the pandemic.
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Sometimes people's interpretation of
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homeschooling is very much just rigid
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classroom behavior but sitting, you
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know, kind of like you and I are sitting
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here right now, right? We're just
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>> we're screen to screen instead of
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instead of face to face in a classroom.
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Um, and unschooling takes a little bit
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more of that creative license. Um, so I
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think that there's yeah there's
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definitely there's definitely a middle
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ground in there too. No, I I I'm
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probably with you in kind of that like I
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think unschooling is like a form of of
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homeschool or at least my view like
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traditional homeschool, but yeah, with
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the rise like with the pandemic and now
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everything a lot of things becoming
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virtual and I know a lot of kids now
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that do like the road schooling thing
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where their family lives in an RV and
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like but they they technically go to
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public school and I'm like but they're
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kind of homeschooled and it's it's like
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this weird like I'm like the lines are
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blurry I guess is what I'm trying to say
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where growing up I had is very
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definitive of like homeschool is mom and
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dad are choosing my curriculum and
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they're building it themselves. Um you
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know and they're they're piecing
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together what was working for us and so
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there's this individualistic
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aspect to it where it's like hey if my
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kid is really into this like we're going
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to lean heavily into that. Um there's
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some customization in the homeschool
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world that I think uh lacks in the
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public school. That's that's my opinion.
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But um
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>> definitely and I think that like turn
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that my parents took kind of towards
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unschooling um you know I definitely
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found it um you know in my in my in my
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later teen years as well um that's kind
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of self-directed education and what I
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was interested in um definitely was kind
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of a hallmark of you know my I feel like
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my teen my my teen experience in
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homeschooling because I had um some of
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the autonomy to do that right and to
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figure out what I was interested in and
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what mattered to me. uh the the
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challenge I think comes in that you know
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a lot of times in high school it's also
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when you are learning to um adhere to
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some of those other some of those other
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norms as well and so for things like you
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know things like math and things like
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science I'm going to be honest I was not
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interested um and so those things became
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very difficult for me especially
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especially without the you know
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boundaries of a classroom around that uh
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so that's that's the part I think of
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unschooling that sometimes becomes a
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little bit tricky for families right
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because you want you want children to be
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able to explor what they're interested
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in and you want them to be able to have
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that autonomy. Um, but at the same time,
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you have to learn math and I did, but it
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was a struggle.
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>> Yeah, I I feel you. There was definitely
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I think like you, my my high school
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experience was like a little bit of that
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like there was some structure, there was
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some understanding of like what my my
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parents had a very um
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>> they wanted my sister and I to be able
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to go to college. That was the the end
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the end goal was not just get them
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through high school. The end goal was
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get them through high school and
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launched into whatever is next. So
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college, job, um marriage, whatever that
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next step is, adulthood. Um and I think
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that that kind of differentiated them
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from other homesooled parents who were
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just like, we're getting through high
00:12:00
school and then that's it and you're on
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your own and you'll figure out life.
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>> Yeah. And so because they had that
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structure to them, there was kind of
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there was an understanding of like,
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okay, you're gonna need XYZ science and
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that was explained to me. Okay, so
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that's important. I think I want to go
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to college. I'm going to need chemistry.
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I'm going to need biology. I'm going to
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need all these different things. I'm
00:12:19
going to need all these different levels
00:12:20
of math. Um, and so it did help. I think
00:12:23
it helped me actually because it gave me
00:12:25
that motivation of like if I want to
00:12:27
launch successfully, I'm going to need
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this. um you know, and even if it's just
00:12:32
kind of a like learn it to regurgitate
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it type of situation, I need to be able
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to do that uh to get to the next level
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of life.
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>> Um maybe not the healthiest way to look
00:12:40
at it, but it was definitely that was my
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experience with it. And so
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>> I I'm wondering for for you like did
00:12:47
your parents have a similar desire to
00:12:50
not only see their kids graduate, but
00:12:52
then like launch su I'm going to say
00:12:54
successfully, but launch into the real
00:12:56
world?
00:12:57
>> Definitely. I think um a lot of
00:12:58
commonalities in that story as well. I
00:13:01
remember, you know, as a teenager
00:13:03
fighting with my mother about doing math
00:13:04
because that's what we do. And that was
00:13:06
a part of it, you know, is that Tess,
00:13:07
you need to go to college. Tess, you
00:13:09
need to, you know, kind of take that,
00:13:10
you know, you you need to kind of take
00:13:12
that next step. So, um both my parents
00:13:14
have four-year um you know, have
00:13:15
four-year degrees. They actually have
00:13:16
master's degrees. Um I undercut them
00:13:18
there a little bit. So, both my parents
00:13:20
have have professional degrees. Um and
00:13:22
so, it was always kind of assumed that
00:13:24
college was college was the next step
00:13:26
for us. And that was definitely for my
00:13:28
sisters and I um held as sort of the
00:13:32
the common step that happened after high
00:13:34
school. Um I think that in the entire in
00:13:39
the entire education landscape right
00:13:40
now, the conversations we're having with
00:13:41
students are a lot different about what
00:13:42
you do after after high school. I think
00:13:45
that there's a lot more conversation
00:13:47
about things like, you know, things like
00:13:49
trade schools and training or these
00:13:51
secondary options that are not just
00:13:52
four-year universities. Um but for me
00:13:55
back in the early 2000s, dating myself
00:13:57
again there, um that was really what you
00:13:59
what was you know assumed was that was
00:14:01
that you went to college right after
00:14:02
high school. And so my parents um I
00:14:05
think did try to set me up as best they
00:14:06
possibly could for college. Um
00:14:09
ultimately I did I did go to college
00:14:11
right after um right after I turned 18
00:14:13
um entered my freshman year. I failed
00:14:16
out miserably. Um, I think that for me,
00:14:20
um, being able to direct my own
00:14:21
education so much, um, in high school
00:14:24
and not having a ton of experience in
00:14:28
kind of what you said, like the
00:14:28
regurgitating part of it, um, was really
00:14:30
really hard for me. I struggled to
00:14:32
function in a classroom environment. Um,
00:14:35
because I wasn't I just wasn't used to
00:14:37
it. I, you know, on on a very frank
00:14:39
level, I also wasn't used to having to
00:14:41
do things that I wasn't interested in
00:14:42
and didn't want to do. And sometimes
00:14:44
that's the reality of classes in
00:14:46
college, right? Is that you just have to
00:14:48
do it. Um, and ultimately I think I
00:14:50
struggled socially as well because
00:14:52
coming from um, a, you know, coming from
00:14:55
a homeschool experience and while I was
00:14:57
connected in terms of a lot of the
00:14:59
artistic pursuits that I was interested
00:15:00
in at the time, um, it's still a lot
00:15:02
different to function in that type of
00:15:04
peer environment. So, um, I I did go to
00:15:09
college. My parents set me up for, like
00:15:10
I said, as best they possibly could. Um,
00:15:12
but it was not it was not the fit for me
00:15:14
in any in any way, shape, or form uh at
00:15:17
at that time in my life. I don't
00:15:19
necessarily blame homeschooling for that
00:15:20
experience. I think it was I think there
00:15:22
were a lot of factors in there. Um, but
00:15:23
it is an interesting thing to consider
00:15:25
about had I had a more traditional
00:15:27
education experience or even a high
00:15:29
school experience how that h how that
00:15:31
might have been um how that might have
00:15:32
been different.
00:15:33
>> Yeah. But what I will say is that once I
00:15:36
once I failed out miserably, um, you
00:15:40
know, I I do credit homeschooling with
00:15:43
getting me um kind of getting my feet
00:15:45
under me and figuring out what the what
00:15:47
it was I wanted to do next. Um, I I was
00:15:51
always very empowered to pursue
00:15:53
opportunities that I was interested in
00:15:54
and to kind of work creatively outside
00:15:57
the bounds of a traditional a
00:15:59
traditional education or in this case a
00:16:01
traditional professional career. So, I
00:16:03
actually um I started my nonprofit
00:16:06
journey because I was I was teaching art
00:16:09
classes at a local YMCA and then just
00:16:11
really um kind of fell in love with
00:16:14
nonprofit work, the way that we fill
00:16:16
this critical gap between what
00:16:18
societyy's able to offer and what policy
00:16:21
um can't meet. And really, I I launched
00:16:24
my professional career um at a YMCA. Uh,
00:16:27
so I'm happy to, you know, be on the
00:16:29
kind of be on the other side of that, be
00:16:31
on the other side of that now. Um, I'm
00:16:33
37 years old. I'm the executive director
00:16:35
of the Coalition for Responsible Home
00:16:36
Education. Um, and I'm actually back in
00:16:38
school now. So, uh, maybe I I I will get
00:16:41
that college thing done eventually.
00:16:43
>> That That's so interesting. Like, you
00:16:45
said a lot of things there that I'm
00:16:46
like, okay, I gota I want to touch on
00:16:48
all these different things. But yeah,
00:16:50
>> so one, I mean, I remember too, like my
00:16:52
my freshman year of college, similar to
00:16:54
you, I I didn't um I I don't think I
00:16:58
struggled nearly as much. Um, and part
00:17:01
of that I I had some in-classroom
00:17:04
experiences in in my later high school
00:17:06
years where I was going to a classroom
00:17:09
or I was taking some kind of class. And
00:17:11
so I had a little bit of structure and I
00:17:13
think of of like understanding what that
00:17:15
looked like. Like and so when I got to
00:17:16
college, I was like I I struggled with
00:17:18
the like similar to you of like I'm not
00:17:20
interested in this, so like why would I
00:17:22
even bother waste my time with it? And
00:17:23
then other things I was just like way
00:17:26
smarter than the the class like and I I
00:17:28
don't say that to be like, you know, to
00:17:30
to be boastful, but like I took an intro
00:17:33
to business class and I was like I had
00:17:34
already run multiple businesses in high
00:17:36
school and I was like I I know all this
00:17:38
stuff. I could have tested out of this
00:17:40
very easily. Um and the professor hated
00:17:42
me because I just was like well that
00:17:44
actually doesn't work. like I pushed
00:17:45
back on like every idea he had kind of a
00:17:47
thing. Um to the point where he was just
00:17:50
like shut up and listen. And I'm sure
00:17:52
there were things that I I did not know,
00:17:53
you know, being 18 and thinking you you
00:17:56
know everything in the world. But um but
00:17:58
it was definitely like it was
00:18:00
frustrating because I had been used to
00:18:02
>> that much more unstructured environment
00:18:04
where it was like it was okay to push
00:18:06
back on ideas and it was okay to just
00:18:07
like go do things and test and
00:18:10
experiment and um
00:18:11
>> there wasn't formulas for like this is
00:18:14
going to work and this isn't going to
00:18:15
work. Like it was just all about like
00:18:16
going and doing that. Um I'm interested.
00:18:19
Yeah. You talked about working in the
00:18:20
YMCA. Is that something that had started
00:18:23
previous to college where you had been
00:18:25
involved in like community type things
00:18:28
like that or or how did you how did you
00:18:30
find that and how did you you know get
00:18:32
involved in the nonprofit stuff? Um I'm
00:18:34
always interested you know where where
00:18:36
those passions kind of spring from?
00:18:37
>> I was always involved artistically I in
00:18:40
you know dance, visual art, theater,
00:18:42
whatever sort of artistic mechanism I
00:18:44
could get my hands on um as a child and
00:18:47
you know into into young adulthood. I
00:18:49
was very very involved that way. Um
00:18:51
there wasn't necessarily an intersection
00:18:53
with you know with nonprofit work but I
00:18:56
was like a lot of us I was raised in the
00:18:57
church and so that idea of service to
00:19:00
others was something that was deeply
00:19:02
deeply ingrained in me from a young from
00:19:05
a young age. I'm part of the ELCA
00:19:06
Lutheran church. Um that's the church I
00:19:08
grew up in. And so that again the idea
00:19:10
of service to others um was was deeply
00:19:14
familiar to me. uh working working at
00:19:17
the YMCA was my first uh was my first
00:19:19
nonprofit experience. Um and it was
00:19:21
interesting because it was a combination
00:19:24
of that you know service to others that
00:19:26
I had been that I had been raised with
00:19:28
but with a larger community lens to it
00:19:30
as well. And I think it was important
00:19:32
for me to see these large structures of
00:19:35
support that exist within
00:19:38
within American society that help so
00:19:40
many people. I wasn't in traditional
00:19:42
school in the United States. And so I
00:19:44
don't think I realized all of these
00:19:45
other again just structures of support
00:19:48
that kind of exist both for both for
00:19:51
kids and for families. And so for me
00:19:54
working at the YMCA for a long time um
00:19:57
and then I worked for an organization
00:19:58
called Girls on the Run and then I
00:19:59
worked for the Boys and Girls Club as
00:20:01
well. So my entire professional career
00:20:03
um really has been dedicated to that to
00:20:05
to that idea of these systems of support
00:20:07
that happen in communities that are
00:20:09
outside of the traditional school
00:20:11
system. Um you know I think as
00:20:13
homeschoolers sometimes there's a
00:20:14
there's a large uh there's somewhat of a
00:20:18
fear of the public school system but
00:20:20
sometimes there can also be a a distrust
00:20:23
of these other organizations that are
00:20:26
kind of at that at at that same
00:20:27
juncture. I'm a firm believer that
00:20:29
education doesn't just happen in inside
00:20:32
classroom walls. And especially seeing
00:20:35
how so many so many people so so many of
00:20:37
my peers accessed all of these resources
00:20:39
through organizations um like the Boys
00:20:41
and Girls Club and like the YMCA was
00:20:44
important for my larger understanding of
00:20:46
it. You know, it's it's so interesting
00:20:49
like you you mentioned like you know
00:20:52
like some of some of the failing not I'm
00:20:54
going to say failings of schools but
00:20:55
like those things that are missing those
00:20:57
pieces that are missing that are getting
00:20:58
met with things like the YMCA in and
00:21:01
society boys and girls club. I worked at
00:21:02
a library while I was in high school and
00:21:04
it was right next to the Boys and Girls
00:21:05
Club and they would come and they would
00:21:07
you know do things with us at the
00:21:08
library and we would go support them in
00:21:10
the ways we could with story time or
00:21:12
whatever. And um and I remember that was
00:21:15
like a big shifting point similar to you
00:21:17
where I was like I saw also you working
00:21:20
at the library I don't think people
00:21:21
realize how much services the library
00:21:24
offers of like when it comes
00:21:26
internet access. Yeah. Like it's insane.
00:21:29
Um the library of things like just the
00:21:31
the sheer amount of things that your
00:21:33
library provides for you is is insane.
00:21:36
Um and so so it kind of clicked in my
00:21:40
brain I think when I was like 16 17
00:21:42
years old of like oh the there there are
00:21:45
these things that exist that are like
00:21:48
filling these gaps um in the world. It
00:21:51
clicked in my brain the importance of
00:21:52
those things that I think gets lost a
00:21:55
lot of times for people where they just
00:21:56
see big numbers going and sometimes
00:21:58
they're not big numbers but big amounts
00:21:59
of money going into these things that
00:22:01
they're like I'm not seeing any return
00:22:03
on this investment so to speak, right?
00:22:05
And it's like
00:22:08
you you're not it's it's
00:22:11
different. It's like a I'm I'm trying to
00:22:13
think of the way how I how I I I know
00:22:15
I've phrased this much better in the
00:22:16
past and I'm jumbling my words here, but
00:22:18
like there is a net positive to the
00:22:21
education and the support that these
00:22:22
programs bring uh to the world and so um
00:22:26
anyway, so I commend you for for that
00:22:28
work um for sure because it's it's it t
00:22:31
it takes tough people to to do those
00:22:33
jobs.
00:22:34
>> Yeah. Yeah. I really um and that's
00:22:36
really what brought me um to my current
00:22:38
role at the Coalition for Responsible
00:22:40
Home Education. We are a we are a 501c3
00:22:43
organization. Um and our mission is to
00:22:46
empower homesooled children um in a in a
00:22:49
lot of different capacities. And so I'm
00:22:51
happy that I'm able to bring that kind
00:22:53
of all of that nonprofit experience but
00:22:55
really elevate again one of my one of my
00:22:57
pivotal life experiences as well. So
00:22:59
it's been interesting to kind of connect
00:23:01
those connect those dots as an adult.
00:23:03
Well, let's yeah, let's kind of get
00:23:05
into, you know, and actually before we
00:23:07
get into coalition more, I want to talk
00:23:09
to you really quickly about because I
00:23:11
know you're a mother with some kiddos
00:23:13
and your kids are in public school. What
00:23:15
went into the decision to put your kids
00:23:18
in public school and how has that been?
00:23:20
Did you think about homeschooling them?
00:23:22
>> Yeah, definitely. And I I appreciate the
00:23:24
question because especially I spend, you
00:23:26
know, as you know, Jake, I spent all my
00:23:27
time talking about homeschooling now.
00:23:29
Um, but it's but it's not something that
00:23:31
I, you know,
00:23:33
>> I do as an adult. Um, I think that
00:23:35
there's a couple I think there's a
00:23:36
couple pieces of it that are that are
00:23:38
important to consider just frankly in
00:23:40
the larger homeschooling conversation as
00:23:42
well. Um, I guess at the base level,
00:23:45
homeschooling was never really an option
00:23:47
for me. Um, I became a single parent
00:23:50
when my daughters were very young. And a
00:23:52
lot of times in homeschooling
00:23:53
conversations, I don't think we talk
00:23:55
enough about the privilege that
00:23:56
homeschooling truly is. um you know for
00:23:58
someone to do homeschooling
00:24:00
well and to do homeschooling responsibly
00:24:03
and to really deliver to children what
00:24:05
it is they need um that requires I think
00:24:08
sometimes the the capacity and the
00:24:11
energy that as a single parent I was
00:24:13
never going to be able to deliver. Um so
00:24:15
for me it's it was not even really a
00:24:18
there wasn't really a decision around
00:24:20
it. It was never it was never an option
00:24:22
if that is if if that makes sense. But
00:24:25
from the time my daughters were young, I
00:24:27
was I I did navigate something that was
00:24:29
kind of brand new to me um as because
00:24:32
because it wasn't something that I had
00:24:33
experienced as a as a child. So I you
00:24:36
know even before public school um I had
00:24:38
my daughters in in daycare. Um I
00:24:41
actually I was a single parent at the
00:24:43
time and I actually accessed I actually
00:24:45
accessed resources through Michigan to
00:24:47
help me pay for daycare. And growing up
00:24:50
in an environment where even though I
00:24:53
was in public school, there was still
00:24:54
kind of a cultivated fear of of of
00:24:56
public school and sometimes of these
00:24:58
larger systems of support that society
00:25:00
um that society needs. It was it was
00:25:03
hard for me to kind of take that jump
00:25:06
and to move in that direction a little
00:25:07
bit. Um, but ultimately I'm so glad I
00:25:09
did because it I have seen my daughters
00:25:12
just absolutely blossom, you know,
00:25:14
academically, socially, um, and just as
00:25:17
great sort of citizens of of of, you
00:25:20
know, my of their school, of my town of
00:25:22
Michigan. Um, and I credit the public
00:25:25
school system a lot for that. Uh, I
00:25:28
don't think I think homeschooling is a
00:25:31
great choice for some people, but it is
00:25:33
again rooted in a in a privilege that
00:25:35
not everybody has. And so when we're
00:25:37
having these conversations about about
00:25:39
homeschooling, I I do think that's
00:25:40
important to to to recognize as well
00:25:42
that it is genuinely um it is genuinely
00:25:46
a privileged piece as well.
00:25:48
>> No, I I 100% agree with you. I I I have
00:25:52
had a couple talks recently with my
00:25:54
parents about the fact that like I I
00:25:56
grew up in Southern California. It is
00:25:58
not cheap to live in live in Southern
00:26:00
California. I you know and so to live on
00:26:02
one income and have my mom be a
00:26:04
full-time stay-at-home mom with two kids
00:26:07
and homeschool them and invest her time
00:26:09
and energy into that. And then later my
00:26:11
dad got more involved in our our
00:26:12
education as well. And so like
00:26:15
I don't take that lightly anymore and I
00:26:17
recognize a little bit of that like
00:26:19
sacrifice that happened there. Um, and
00:26:22
so yeah, it's definitely like I think if
00:26:25
the situation was different, like I I I
00:26:28
wouldn't be sitting here talking about
00:26:29
homeschooling because I would have been
00:26:30
in public school. Um, and so no, I think
00:26:33
that's a that's a very crucial piece to
00:26:35
kind of touch on there is the fact that
00:26:37
it is a very privileged place to come
00:26:39
from when when you are a homeschool kid.
00:26:41
Okay, so let's pivot a little bit into
00:26:44
CRE,
00:26:46
the Coalition for Responsible Home
00:26:48
Education.
00:26:50
you kind of have answered this already,
00:26:51
but what really is it? Um, and like what
00:26:56
what is the purpose? How do we get
00:26:58
involved? How did you get involved with
00:27:00
it and find it? And um, yeah, let's
00:27:03
start there.
00:27:04
>> Yeah. So, I um, the Coalition for
00:27:05
Responsible Home Education, um, it's a
00:27:08
nonprofit that was founded all the way
00:27:09
back in 2013. Um it was the coalition
00:27:12
for responsible home education was
00:27:14
founded by alumni and remains um powered
00:27:17
by alumni to to this day as well. Uh we
00:27:20
work in kind of three three areas that
00:27:23
are all centered around empowering
00:27:25
empowering homesooled children. So we um
00:27:29
a lot of the resources we create help
00:27:32
alumni um with that transition between
00:27:35
homeschooling and the real world. um in
00:27:38
so many adult alumni that I that I talk
00:27:40
to, we all kind of talk about this like
00:27:42
reckoning that we had when we had to go
00:27:44
into the real world. And so we do a lot
00:27:46
of we do a lot of resource um you know
00:27:49
resource building around that around
00:27:52
around that transition time and um and
00:27:54
build some resources for families that
00:27:56
are currently homeschooling now. Um our
00:27:58
focus remains alumni and will always
00:28:00
remain alumni. Um but the reality is is
00:28:03
that as more and more families are
00:28:05
homeschooling, more and more families
00:28:06
want to want to hear from us as well
00:28:08
about how they can improve their current
00:28:10
um homeschooling practice. So that's the
00:28:12
resources thing that we do. Um we also
00:28:15
do we we do some really really
00:28:16
interesting research. Uh Dr. Jonah
00:28:18
Stewart leads our research efforts. Um
00:28:21
and that takes a lot of different I
00:28:24
guess a lot of different methods, ways
00:28:27
and things that we're trying to learn
00:28:28
about. Uh one of our signature efforts
00:28:30
there is maintaining the homeschoolings
00:28:32
of the invisible children database. This
00:28:35
is a uh this is a database of kind of
00:28:37
extreme cases of abuse and neglect where
00:28:39
homeschooling is is is a common thread
00:28:42
throughout them. Um homeschooling is not
00:28:46
is not free of abuse and neglect. Um a
00:28:49
lot of times in homeschooling
00:28:50
conversations
00:28:52
we we tend to grant parents the all of
00:28:55
the good intentions, right? there's a
00:28:58
there's a presumption that if someone is
00:28:59
homeschooling, they are a great person.
00:29:01
Um, and that is true for the majority,
00:29:03
right? But the reality is is that there
00:29:05
is a subset of abuse and neglect that is
00:29:07
happening. And that's what the HIC
00:29:08
database maintains. Jonah also leads our
00:29:11
research uh specifically into
00:29:13
homeschooling outcomes as well because
00:29:14
we want to have more real data around
00:29:17
what it is homeschoolers do next. Um,
00:29:20
working on this side of it, it's
00:29:21
challenging because a lot of states
00:29:23
states treat homeschooling differently
00:29:24
in every way, shape, and form. So, we
00:29:26
don't have a great idea sometimes of how
00:29:28
many homeschoolers exist and we have an
00:29:29
even worse idea of what happens next.
00:29:32
Uh, I think anecdotally we know that
00:29:34
homeschoolers tend to, you know, maybe
00:29:37
have some pretty good outcomes, but
00:29:39
homeschoolers also have really bad
00:29:41
outcomes. Um, and we see both of those
00:29:43
in our alumni and it's important for us
00:29:44
to be able to present that from a data
00:29:46
from a data standpoint. The final thing
00:29:48
we do is actually um is actually around
00:29:50
advocacy and specifically encouraging
00:29:53
responsible oversight on a
00:29:55
state-by-state basis to make sure that
00:29:57
the children are accessing education,
00:29:58
that children have a safe home
00:30:00
environment um and that those negative
00:30:02
outcomes that we see in research,
00:30:04
there's a safety net around them that's
00:30:06
created um from policy. So that's what
00:30:09
that's what uh the Coalition for
00:30:10
Responsible Home Education does. I um I
00:30:14
came to the organization because they
00:30:16
were in um an exciting place of growth
00:30:18
and were able to hire an executive
00:30:19
director for the very first time. So I
00:30:22
when I applied to this uh when I applied
00:30:24
to this job, it was the first time I had
00:30:25
ever even mentioned I was homeschooled
00:30:27
in a job interview, [laughter] cover
00:30:30
letter, anything, you know, anything
00:30:31
like that. Um and not only did I mention
00:30:33
it, it was a selling point, which was
00:30:35
crazy to me. Um because, you know, I'm
00:30:38
deeply aware of the stigma that exists
00:30:40
around homeschoolers. Um, and a lot of
00:30:42
those stereotypes that kind of if I were
00:30:45
to tell somebody I was homeschooled
00:30:46
would come ahead of my professional
00:30:48
experience. So, it's not something I
00:30:49
shared. Um, people would find it out
00:30:51
about me eventually. So, I also I I hold
00:30:54
a small municipal elected position in my
00:30:56
community as well. So, um, I was having
00:30:58
a conversation with some of my
00:31:00
commissioners as well about this about
00:31:02
um, school buses and I had to come clean
00:31:04
and tell them I had never been on a
00:31:06
school bus before. I did not understand
00:31:07
what they were talking about. So, it
00:31:10
comes up in different ways, right?
00:31:11
People know that I'm homeschooled
00:31:12
eventually, but it was never something I
00:31:14
led with because of those stigma and
00:31:16
stereotypes that exist. Um, however, I
00:31:18
was able to in this job, which was just
00:31:22
what a neat experience, right?
00:31:24
>> No, it's so funny that you mentioned
00:31:26
that because uh I was thinking about you
00:31:28
you talked about kind of that do doing
00:31:31
research into the numbers of what
00:31:32
homeschoolers do after, right? And I and
00:31:35
I I know for me when I got to college, I
00:31:38
hid that I was a homeschooler. I did not
00:31:40
want to be the weirdo homeschool kid
00:31:42
that everyone was like, "He's gonna be
00:31:43
antisocial and he's gonna be whatever."
00:31:46
I just told people I went to private
00:31:47
school because that's what my my mom had
00:31:49
always told me growing up, hey, if
00:31:51
you're out and you know, people ask you
00:31:53
about your education or whatever. Not
00:31:54
that we were really afraid of truency
00:31:56
officers or anything like that, but um
00:31:58
but she also didn't want us to get uh in
00:32:00
trouble if we, you know, ran an errand
00:32:02
for her or whatever during traditional
00:32:04
school hours. Um and so she would always
00:32:07
say just, you know, tell people you're
00:32:08
in private school kind of a thing. And
00:32:09
and usually usually people will look the
00:32:11
other way like they're just kind of move
00:32:13
on from it or whatever. And um and so
00:32:15
anyway, so I just took that into college
00:32:16
and so many of of my friends and the
00:32:18
people who have been on the show
00:32:20
previous
00:32:21
similar deal. They're like, "I got out
00:32:23
of it and then I never wanted to talk
00:32:25
about it ever again." Um, and I had one
00:32:27
lady on early on uh the show who she had
00:32:31
not thought about it for many, many
00:32:33
years. And it kind of like almost
00:32:34
blacked it out that she was like a
00:32:36
homeschool kid and uh and she's like and
00:32:39
then it all started coming flooding back
00:32:42
uh when she got connected to the show
00:32:43
and things like that. And so it was
00:32:45
interesting to talk to her because as we
00:32:46
were talking I could see like it
00:32:48
lighting up in her brain of like I
00:32:50
remember this thing that happened and
00:32:51
all these you know and she had just kind
00:32:52
of removed all of that from her life is
00:32:55
>> that's not a defining factor of who I am
00:32:58
any longer. And so um so I wonder if
00:33:01
that plays any role in in those numbers
00:33:03
that you guys are pulling there. So so
00:33:06
funny to then go into a job interview
00:33:07
and it's like that's actually the
00:33:08
selling point of of uh [laughter]
00:33:11
getting the job is like hey this was me.
00:33:13
Yeah.
00:33:14
>> So, let's talk a little bit about like
00:33:16
how how people like myself can get
00:33:19
involved or at least like learn more
00:33:22
about it. Like I know you guys have a
00:33:23
website. I'm going to link it down
00:33:24
below. It's uh responsible education. Is
00:33:27
that what it is? No.
00:33:28
>> Well, so it's actually if if you just
00:33:29
use our abbreviation cr.org, you can get
00:33:33
there. Um it's the Coalition for
00:33:34
Responsible Home Education is what those
00:33:37
is what those letters are.
00:33:38
>> And so aside from that though, how can
00:33:40
alumni get involved? what are you
00:33:42
looking to you know what are you needing
00:33:45
from us I guess that's that's the
00:33:47
question there [laughter]
00:33:48
>> yeah thank you yeah thank you for that
00:33:50
so I mentioned like you know we do a lot
00:33:52
of work in resources and creating
00:33:53
resources we love hearing from alumni
00:33:55
what would help them um in terms of
00:33:57
research as well a lot of that research
00:33:58
is alumni driven so if people connect to
00:34:00
us and get on our lists you'll see um
00:34:03
not just our projects but we are kind of
00:34:06
a nexus of alumni for a lot of different
00:34:08
researchers as well so um there's an
00:34:11
archavist in Wisconsin who reached out
00:34:13
to me because they she wants to capture
00:34:15
stories of homeschoolers in Wisconsin.
00:34:17
So, all of these really neat research
00:34:19
projects kind of come through us. So, if
00:34:21
alumni dial into what we're doing um and
00:34:23
you know and join our mailing list,
00:34:25
they'll have the opportunity to share
00:34:26
their stories and kind of contribute to
00:34:28
this larger methodological research
00:34:31
that's happening across the country.
00:34:32
homeschooling is the fastest growing
00:34:34
education modality in the US right now.
00:34:36
And alumni have the opportunity to be
00:34:37
on, you know, kind of the inside of that
00:34:40
research as it's happening. Um, and that
00:34:43
alumni perspective and research is such
00:34:45
a critical piece when we move into
00:34:47
advocacy as well. Um so at the Coalition
00:34:50
for Responsible Home Education, we
00:34:52
firmly believe that um states should
00:34:55
have additional oversight measures in
00:34:57
place for children that are homeschooled
00:34:59
um both in kind of the educational realm
00:35:01
as well as the child welfare realm
00:35:03
because um students have the potential
00:35:07
to miss out not just on resources but
00:35:09
frankly on safety measures as well. At
00:35:12
CR we do advocate for we say more
00:35:14
oversight. That can sound like a scary
00:35:16
word, but I promise it's not a scary
00:35:18
word. It's just um it's just kind of
00:35:20
responsibility measures. We would love
00:35:22
it if every state had um you know kind
00:35:25
of an assessment process for
00:35:26
homeschooled children. Um we think
00:35:29
that's important because we've seen both
00:35:30
from research and from our alumni
00:35:32
stories that sometimes when homesooled
00:35:34
children fall behind, there's no way to
00:35:36
even catch that educational gap until
00:35:39
it's until frankly it's it's too late.
00:35:42
So, when we look at, you know, kind of
00:35:43
some of the education, we would love to
00:35:45
see um homeschoolers be able to access
00:35:47
all of the same resources that public
00:35:49
school kids can. I live in Michigan now.
00:35:51
Um while I grew up in Dearborn, I live
00:35:53
in a slightly more rural community now.
00:35:54
And so, I know that the public school a
00:35:57
lot of times it's the only way that in
00:35:58
communities like mine, those resources
00:36:00
exist. I know you mentioned working at a
00:36:02
library. In some small towns in
00:36:04
Michigan, the only library is the school
00:36:06
library. And homeschoolers should have
00:36:08
that access, too. So, we are advocating
00:36:11
for laws that, you know, both
00:36:13
educationally support and resource kind
00:36:15
of support our homeschoolers. Um, the
00:36:18
other side of what we do and while um
00:36:20
and why some of this work is is is hard
00:36:23
to hear as well is that we also are
00:36:25
advocating for oversight measures that
00:36:28
will keep kids safe. In in in 48 states,
00:36:32
someone can be convicted of a violent
00:36:33
crime against children and still be
00:36:35
allowed to homeschool their own child.
00:36:37
Um, in 49 states as well, if a family is
00:36:39
in the middle of a of an active child
00:36:42
welfare investigation, they can actually
00:36:44
withdraw their student to be
00:36:46
homeschooled. Um, that's an incredible
00:36:48
safety risk, especially when the
00:36:49
perpetrator is likely someone at home.
00:36:52
Um, because homeschooling has become so
00:36:54
deregulated. I mentioned in Michigan
00:36:56
since 1996, but because of that
00:36:58
systematic deregulation of
00:36:59
homeschooling, we've removed a lot of
00:37:01
safeguards for children who could be the
00:37:03
victims of abuse and neglect. So when
00:37:05
you hear kind of shocking statistics,
00:37:07
right, that you can be convicted of a
00:37:09
crime against a child um and you and you
00:37:12
can homeschool your own your own child,
00:37:14
they won't have that same access and
00:37:16
support during the day and that relief
00:37:18
that they would have um if they were
00:37:20
outside of the school system. So when
00:37:22
we're talking to legislators, we're also
00:37:23
talking about some very scary but very
00:37:26
impactful work as well. And to be frank,
00:37:28
we need alumni at the table. Um most
00:37:31
homeschooling policy and law um is
00:37:35
legislators who have never been
00:37:37
homeschooled and will never homeschool
00:37:38
their own children talking to parents
00:37:40
who are actively homeschooling. And the
00:37:42
place that we are not talking is people
00:37:45
who have the lived experience of being
00:37:47
homeschooled. Um and it's crazy to me
00:37:50
that some of these decisions are made by
00:37:51
people who have never been a
00:37:53
homeschooled child themselves. They're
00:37:54
not even taking feedback from
00:37:56
homeschooled children. Um, and you can't
00:37:59
do that when a when a homeschool child's
00:38:00
like 12 or 13 because they're still
00:38:02
under, you know, they're still within
00:38:03
the experience. But when alumni dial
00:38:05
into us, we can give them those
00:38:06
opportunities to make their voice heard
00:38:08
in a really impactful um way.
00:38:11
>> That's huge. And that's honestly what I
00:38:13
think was so attractive to your
00:38:16
organization when I found it was was
00:38:19
that because that is the piece that's
00:38:21
missing. Um, and that's something that I
00:38:23
when I started this show, it started
00:38:25
very much from a selfish selfish place
00:38:28
of like, hey, I just want to reconnect
00:38:29
with my old friends and like, you know,
00:38:31
kind of shoot the breeze on like old
00:38:33
funny stories of like being moms and
00:38:36
being weird little church homeschool
00:38:38
kids and, you know, all that all that
00:38:40
kind of stuff. And what I what I
00:38:41
realized really quickly was that like we
00:38:44
had these stories that yeah, we have the
00:38:46
funny stories and we have like the great
00:38:47
times and stuff, but we also have all
00:38:49
these stories of like this was really
00:38:52
good, this was really bad, and this over
00:38:54
here, this was really ugly. Um, and
00:38:57
those stories are important because like
00:39:00
you said, they're going they can impact
00:39:02
the next generation of homeschool kids.
00:39:04
What I didn't realize when I started
00:39:06
this show was who completely would be
00:39:08
listening to it. I thought this is going
00:39:09
to be like a therapy group. Only ex-h
00:39:11
homeschool kids are going to listen to
00:39:13
it. And the number of emails and DMs
00:39:15
that I've gotten from active homeschool
00:39:17
families who are saying, "Please keep
00:39:19
doing this because I need to hear the
00:39:22
stories of these kids so that I don't do
00:39:23
the same thing to my kid." That's
00:39:25
important. And and what you guys are
00:39:27
doing is kind of a I think a furthering
00:39:29
of that of just like, okay, but now we
00:39:31
can actually make some laws based on
00:39:33
those experience hopefully. Um, and
00:39:36
that's very important. So, thank you for
00:39:38
what you do. I appreciate it. Um, is
00:39:42
there any legislation currently that's
00:39:45
kind of in the works or that you guys
00:39:47
are actively working on that people
00:39:48
should be aware of and in what what
00:39:50
states would those be happening?
00:39:52
>> Yeah. So, we um legislatively we kind of
00:39:54
work in we kind of work in two
00:39:56
directions. So sometimes um sometimes
00:39:59
there will be active um active
00:40:01
legislation on the floor in different
00:40:02
states where there's a great opportunity
00:40:04
to bring homeschooling into this when
00:40:06
things already exist and we can just
00:40:08
kind of add some language about
00:40:09
homeschooling into it. We're allowed um
00:40:11
you know that that opportunity. Some of
00:40:13
the current bills on the floor um one of
00:40:15
them is in New Jersey. It's in actually
00:40:17
in committee right now. And what's
00:40:19
happening in New Jersey is that there's
00:40:21
legislation that would require
00:40:23
homeschool families um to check in once
00:40:25
a year with their local school district.
00:40:27
We firmly support this from both an
00:40:29
educational uh you know kind of
00:40:31
educational assessment component, but
00:40:33
also to make sure that every every
00:40:35
single homeschooled child in New Jersey
00:40:37
would have access to a mandated reporter
00:40:39
at least once a year. So when there is
00:40:41
legislation happening like that like
00:40:43
like that legislation in New Jersey, um
00:40:46
we're firmly supportive of it. We
00:40:47
activate our alumni around it to to to
00:40:50
be supportive of the lawmaker who's kind
00:40:52
of bringing that forward and we offer
00:40:54
any kind of really any kind of support
00:40:56
that we can. Um I hinted at it earlier,
00:40:59
but the deregulation and the kind of
00:41:01
anti-oversight homeschool homeschool
00:41:04
movement is massive and it is far better
00:41:07
funded than we are and their lobbyists
00:41:09
are um you know far far better resourced
00:41:13
uh than we are. But it's important that
00:41:16
there's a but that there's another voice
00:41:18
at the table. So right now where there's
00:41:20
some of that active, you know, positive
00:41:22
legislation on the floor um that's
00:41:24
happening that's happening right now in
00:41:26
New Jersey, but pretty close to that in
00:41:29
Massachusetts. There's a bill in
00:41:30
committee right now that will
00:41:31
essentially remove the the few
00:41:33
protections that there are in the state
00:41:34
of Massachusetts from for homeschooled
00:41:37
children. What they're looking to do in
00:41:38
Massachusetts is actually Massachusetts
00:41:41
does have a registry system, which means
00:41:42
that if families are going to
00:41:43
homeschool, they have to at least notify
00:41:45
their local school board. What's
00:41:46
currently on the floor in Massachusetts
00:41:48
is the option to totally remove that.
00:41:50
So, we would essentially be losing
00:41:52
losing track of all of these kids. Same
00:41:54
idea. We'll activate the alumni. The
00:41:57
other the other reason the legislation
00:41:58
happens and why people reach out to us
00:42:00
is is a little bit darker. There are
00:42:04
a lot of times there are really horrific
00:42:06
cases that come that come into the
00:42:09
public eye and that's what motivates
00:42:11
legislators to start acting. Um I wish
00:42:14
we would look at everything proactively,
00:42:16
but that's just not the way it works. An
00:42:18
example of that would be in Connecticut.
00:42:20
I just realized I've used all New
00:42:21
England examples. There's more states,
00:42:22
but I just went through New England. Um
00:42:25
so in Connecticut, um so in Connecticut
00:42:27
right now, there will be some
00:42:29
legislation coming to the floor that we
00:42:30
are actively involved in. um in in in
00:42:33
drafting right now because there have
00:42:34
been um there have been two fatalities
00:42:37
that surround uh what we what we would
00:42:40
call suspicious withdrawal. This is when
00:42:41
families have are actively engaged in a
00:42:43
CPS investigation. They're allowed to
00:42:45
take their kids out of school. Um and
00:42:47
ultimately in both of these cases uh the
00:42:50
children the children were murdered. So
00:42:52
we are we are we are supporting that
00:42:54
kind of drafting of legislation to to
00:42:57
see when that comes. So, those are three
00:42:59
states with active things happening
00:43:01
right now. Um, but but we're also
00:43:03
working directly with directly with
00:43:05
legislators in multiple other states as
00:43:07
well. So, even though I only named New
00:43:10
England ones, faults of mine there,
00:43:12
there's lots of others.
00:43:14
>> Hey, you're you're all good. I know on
00:43:16
the on the website as well, you guys
00:43:17
have a have some cool like maps that,
00:43:20
you know, you can put in the state you
00:43:21
were educated in or the state you live
00:43:23
in and things like that and it'll show
00:43:24
you some of the the protections and and
00:43:26
and the protections that don't exist in
00:43:28
those states. Um, and that was helpful
00:43:30
for me because up until like I said a
00:43:32
couple years ago, like I didn't really
00:43:34
realize the difference of um of really
00:43:37
like each state. I just kind of thought
00:43:39
like, hey, every every state is like,
00:43:41
you know, my state of California. My
00:43:43
parents just seem to I mean, I know they
00:43:45
filed paperwork, but like they seem to
00:43:47
just kind of like pull me out of school
00:43:48
and homeschool me and um you know, and
00:43:51
and do their best um so to [laughter]
00:43:54
speak.
00:43:54
>> And that's the case in 19 states is that
00:43:56
all the parents have to do is well,
00:43:58
actually, they don't even have to file
00:44:00
paperwork in 19 states. California is
00:44:01
when they actually have to file
00:44:02
something. In 19 states, all that it is
00:44:04
is if a child stops showing up to
00:44:05
school, the parent says, "We're
00:44:06
homeschooling." And that is truly the
00:44:08
end of the road.
00:44:09
>> Yeah. To your point, then it becomes
00:44:11
very easy for kids to fall off the radar
00:44:13
and to we hear stats all the time about
00:44:15
homeschool kids being smarter and being
00:44:19
more likely to succeed in the world and
00:44:21
go do big things. U but I found it very
00:44:24
interesting where some of those stats
00:44:26
come from uh in more in more recent
00:44:29
times. So, um, yeah. No, I I appreciate
00:44:33
what you do and again to the audience,
00:44:35
go check out what CR is doing. Um, link
00:44:38
will be down in the show notes and get
00:44:40
involved if you feel interested. Tess,
00:44:43
is there anything we haven't touched on
00:44:45
that you think is important regarding
00:44:46
any of these topics?
00:44:48
>> No, I'm I'm I'm grateful this show
00:44:49
exists and to find these other, you
00:44:51
know, networks networks of homeschool
00:44:53
alumni. Um, I would definitely encourage
00:44:54
alumni to, like you said, Jacob, get
00:44:57
involved uh with what we're doing. um
00:45:00
you know, positive, negative, and
00:45:02
everywhere in between. It's really the
00:45:04
voice of homeschool alumni that that is
00:45:07
going to make the best uh the best case
00:45:09
in not just in legislation, but in
00:45:11
research and in resources for the next
00:45:13
set of homeschooled kids. And I'm
00:45:15
interested to see what, you know, what
00:45:16
what stereotypes exist of them, right? I
00:45:18
know I know the stereotypes that exist
00:45:20
of homeschoolers around my generation.
00:45:21
And I'm so curious what that's going to
00:45:23
look like in, you know, 1015 years. So,
00:45:26
we can talk about that then. [laughter]
00:45:28
>> Yeah. No, I think it is I think it is
00:45:29
really interesting because um like I
00:45:32
know people who were kind of like in the
00:45:34
bo the the front lines of the homeschool
00:45:36
movement in California and their their
00:45:38
stereotypes are different than like I'm
00:45:40
more of a product of like the 2000s. Uh
00:45:43
I was born in the '9s but homeschooled
00:45:44
in the 2000s and the 2010s. Um and then
00:45:47
now even knowing kids that are yeah in
00:45:50
the 2020s uh being homeschooled and I'm
00:45:52
like you you got a whole another set of
00:45:55
weirdness on you.
00:45:57
I joke with one of my friends I that we
00:45:59
uh homeschoolers have this uh we have a
00:46:02
smell to us and we can we can sniff each
00:46:04
other out in a crowd pretty quickly. So
00:46:06
uh
00:46:06
>> yeah and my staff and I we say you know
00:46:09
we say weirdo uh we say weirdo with all
00:46:12
the positive connotation that there is.
00:46:13
Right.
00:46:14
>> Same. Yes.
00:46:15
>> And we all identify with that.
00:46:17
[laughter]
00:46:17
>> Everybody everybody is weird. But like
00:46:19
we have a there's a specific homeschool
00:46:21
weirdo that is like and I and uh I think
00:46:25
uh going back to kind of some of those
00:46:27
previous comments of like uh I was
00:46:29
ashamed of that for a number of years
00:46:31
and now I feel like I've just em I've
00:46:33
chosen to embrace that uh in my life of
00:46:36
like this is a part of who I am and I
00:46:37
I'm I'm not going to run from it
00:46:39
anymore. So
00:46:40
>> yeah,
00:46:40
>> again, Tess, thank you so much for
00:46:42
coming on and sharing your experience
00:46:44
and what you do and and how others can
00:46:46
get involved. Um, I'm looking forward to
00:46:48
continuing like watching what you guys
00:46:50
are doing, being involved how I can and
00:46:52
uh, yeah, this has been this has been
00:46:54
fantastic. Thank you again.
00:46:56
>> Awesome. Thanks so much. I appreciate
00:46:57
it.
00:46:58
>> Awesome. And to you, my ex-homies, I
00:47:00
hope you enjoyed this episode. Like we
00:47:01
said so many times in this episode.
00:47:03
Links will be down in the description to
00:47:04
get involved with the coalition of
00:47:06
responsible home educators and uh, see
00:47:09
what see what's going on there. See if
00:47:10
that's something you're interested in
00:47:11
being a part of. If you want to hear
00:47:13
more about it, let me know. Um, I'm
00:47:15
happy to reach out to more of the people
00:47:16
on their staff and see if they would
00:47:18
want to come on and share some
00:47:19
additional things. But yeah, and if
00:47:21
you've got a homeschool story, don't be
00:47:23
afraid to reach out to me. It's
00:47:24
00:47:27
Shoot me an email, let me know. Give me
00:47:28
like the quick little elevator pitch of
00:47:30
who you are, uh, your homeschool
00:47:31
experience, and let's let's chat. Let's
00:47:33
see if you'd be a good fit to come on
00:47:35
the show. Until next time, we'll see
00:47:37
you. [music] Peace.
00:47:45
>> [music]
00:47:50
[music]
