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well we are back again in the ex homeschoolers Club welcome my exh homey friends it is your favorite ex
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homeschooler that is Jacob to the Gooden um it's me and welcome back to the best ex-
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homeschooler podcast this side of the internet uh today I've got some special
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guests they're friends of mine uh colleagues if you will bosses uh they're
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they're they're amazing women and they are not homeschooled nor were they
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homeschooled moms uh but today I've got my lovely friends Dr chz Ley and Stephanie boy on with us today we're
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going to touch on a little bit on sex a little bit on therapy a little bit on this a little bit on that you're gonna
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you're going to hear why in a minute but um chz and Stephanie they are the hosts
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of seven on Sundays which is a podcast for young adults uh primarily in their 20s and they they interview them and
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they ask us questions about sex relationships life mental health all all the things so uh yeah so without further
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Ado Stephanie chz welcome to the X home school Club thank you so much for having
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us Jacob this is exciting yeah I'm so stoked to have you guys and uh first and foremost thank you
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for coming on the show we know each other because I I edit your podcast um you do a great job of editing the
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podcast and you get to hear it all firsthand which is which is a a a good hot seat to be in yes no I have learned
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I have learned a lot from your guys' show to be honest which um like I said at the top of the show seven
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on Sundays it'll be linked down below but um go check it out the cool thing about seven on Sundays is it's an
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Anonymous podcast so you guys really get people in there who come in and share their stories in a very safe environment
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it feels like I've been on there I've shared my story you can look me up
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mine's the Drew interview um I'm gonna dox myself there but only because I've
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told that story on this podcast um but yeah I love the I love the format that you guys have built and yeah I know chz
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you you are obviously a licensed therap therapist uh for family and marriage stuff and and Stephanie you are like a
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sex expert uh in some circles you're like the porn mom you've done a Ted Talk
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on pornography and it's the addictive nature of it things like that and so um
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so I guess first and foremost to kick off the show I got to ask you you know you're not tied into the homeschool
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circles as much so when you hear homeschool kid homeschool parents homeschool families like what kind of
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Pops in your brain do you guys have an image of that have experience with homeschool families at all uh yeah I'll
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jump in I actually do have one semester under my belt of teaching my daughter uh
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homeschool it was one of the hardest experiences of my life I have to say you have to I praise to any parent who is
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doing homeschooling because it's not easy um I started when my daughter was a
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sophomore in high school just for one semester and I was like okay I can't do
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this anymore but um I guess as far as like what I think of homeschool and how it's relevant to our
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topic I feel like and I could be wrong um that H school is done I would say probably the majority of the kids are
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from some Christian background that would be my assumption and I would also say that
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having grown up catholic christian uh we also have the most challenging time talking about sex so I would think that
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these kids uh are left even more in the dark about sex than your average kid who's already in the dark so it's like
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double dark yes I I would definitely agree with that um yeah before I tap too much into
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that chz do you have anything to add there your your opinion of what you think of when you think of homeschool
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families and peoples yeah so I worked with families that have homeschooled and also some of my really good friends very
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close friends have homeschooled and for different reasons one was because because her son got really sick in um
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early on um early on and so he would H school but he would come to some classes with my son and so I had that experience
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and I can tell you kind of um I think it was hard for him because of the kids because the kids
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were confused and that was many years ago and then recently I have a very good friend who homeschooled four of her kids
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and now this is the first year I think it's the first year all of them are in
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uh regular public schools and she finally has a little bit of life which is amazing but um but she didn't do it
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neither of them did it for religious reasons they did it because they weren't
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happy with mainly the social emotional things going on at at schools really that was the main reason it wasn't
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academics but our kids Excel both those kids excelled very rapidly of course um but anyway but those were two personal
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experiences then I have worked with families too that that have chosen that so you know we're a bunch of
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weirdos that is the perception that is the perception so what I wondered for the for the kids that went back to
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public schools now and I don't know enough to ask my friend in detail but I'll see her tonight actually so I will
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ask her but I want to know how they're adjusting because one was in high school
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so how does that how does that work you know that's a great question because I
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think so my hes School experience I think was slightly different than a lot of people's because my mom involved me
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very early I I started in second grade I was homeschooled through through high school um but very early on she involved
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me and my sister in like homeschool community so we were around other people we took classes with other kids so we
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had kind of that social aspect obviously still a little bit socially awkward at times but but but we
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had a lot more social aspects we were involved in a lot more Church things we were like she made a huge emphasis in
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that not every family does that right so you know it's a double-edged sword uh
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when it comes to that kind of a thing but a lot of my friends growing up we were all in the same groups together so
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we had friends we had we had people to kind of have that a few of them did go to public high school and from what I
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remember a lot of them I think it's always awkward at the beginning right but even like if you were to move States
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you know when you when you change schools it's a little awkward because people have their friend groups and you
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got to break into it um but from what I understand a lot of them adapted pretty quickly the thing that a lot of people I
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think struggled with was they were so used to their homeschool experience being well if I do my math in 30 minutes
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math is done for the day right as opposed to a public or private school it's like you're kind of Trapped in that
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room for how long an hour two hours you know um doing the same thing it's like
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you know the work at own pace thing doesn't doesn't fly in a public school
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like it does in a in a home school setting so there's that but uh Stephanie I am interested so you you said you
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homeschooled for like a semester and what was there what was the reasoning behind that maybe you gave it
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and I missed it but I didn't my daughter was bullied in school so I took her out
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and uh we actually had a really great experience uh I think the the woman who ran the
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homeschool organization ation here she was a math teacher and she was an uh English teacher so the ones that I would
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have been the most concerned about she covered those two and was great with my daughter and I think my daughter like
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did really well in math because of that when she then went back to school um it was the other subjects
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where I was like you know okay what do you want to learn okay forensics okay I got like three forensics textbooks and
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I'm like read this chapter you know I was doing my thing I wasn't just used to
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it but it was actually kind of fun figuring out how to test for that like I ultimately ended up having her explain
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forensics things to me you know like I'd have her talk me through what she learned which was kind of fun and we'd
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watch you know like murder crime things and videos there's great there's actually great supplements
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online for homeschool kids absolutely yeah no I I did a whole in high school I got really into I got really into war
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for some reason and like the history of wars and things like that um I was really into Weaponry um you know average
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boy stuff uh kind of a thing but my dad who he had kind of taken over as my as my teacher we did a whole year of
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studying all of the wars specifically world wars but watched a lot of movies read a lot of books did a lot of museums
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uh that kind of thing uh didn't live far from like the Ronald rean Museum and
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presidential museums tend to do a lot of really good exhibits and things like that so uh anyway but yeah to your point
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it it lended itself to things that I was interested in got to pursue those which
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was super super cool um okay so why do I have you guys on the show today so also
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to fill in our audience Stephanie and chz are going to come on individually as well in later episodes and we're going
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to dive more into like their specific niches of what they do and and things like that but as many of you know on the
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show we started touching on a lot more things like mental health we've gotten
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really outside of the like just fluffy home School remembrance type stuff and so I felt like it was important to bring
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people who they're Professionals in this they they have some knowledge under
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their belts to talk about things like sex to talk about difficult relationships and that kind of a thing
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and so Steph chz you guys were the perfect people uh you landed in my lap um to come talk about this but I wanted
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to first kind of ask you guys a little bit about seven on Sundays and where the idea for that stems from how you guys
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found each other I know you guys have been friends for a long time but but like how you guys kind of came together
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to create seven on Sundays and I know you're also writing a book but what was
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really the the Catalyst for all of that Dr Shez and I do very similar uh have a very well we have a very similar love
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and affinity for kids in high school and college um and I think that's you know I
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think we both have a real comfort in talking to kids uh and I think we' both
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share very open relationships with our kids so for us these conversations came more naturally than we see with like our
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you know probably our friends most of our friends can't talk to their kids in
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the same way that we talk to them myself was a sex educator Dr Shez with her expertise in like addiction and all that
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kind of stuff she can talk to her kids about you know relationships and addiction and things like that so we had
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an a facility if you will um in these conversations just by our backgrounds and what we do and uh we began talking
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after my podcast and uh we have a I I was sexually assaulted in college and um doctor Shez she'll tell her a story
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about you know what brought her into what she does but we we would talk and we would have these really interesting
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conversations like I wish kids would see this blah blah blah and I was doing these circles with young kids Dr Shez
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does a lot of group therapy um work and loves group therapy and I was doing group therapy without doing group
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therapy I was doing group therapy with like sex and and porn and how that's impacting relationships so we both had
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this affinity for wanting people to be together and that we know in group um no one feels alone and so that was sort of
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the Genesis of it and we wanted to create it real live events and then we were like as we talked more and more and
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we had different issues that came up we were like why don't we just start it
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with a podcast because then we can get to the groups and we can get to doing all that stuff but in the meanwhile all
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of these juicy important you know um relevant conversations can be heard by more
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people even if we're growing the audience you know the desire was to have these group sort of you know you're not
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alone conversations so that young people who were really struggling could hear and see themselves in other people's
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story and the journey you know most of the people who've been on our show are
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through their Journey or in the process of really working on it so I think that that helps other people who are not as
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far in the journey go see themselves and say this is what's possible that's so
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much of it I think that we have a shared Mission and a shared passion like Stephanie said for working with young
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people and helping them and I consider you Jacob one of those young people because I'm a lot older but and
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understanding like the the shifts from how we grew up and what we were going through to how things are today
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and because I've been doing um therapy for such a long time particularly with
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families and young people who struggle when Stephanie did her Ted Talk and I heard that I immediately reached out to
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her and we had known each other for many many many years from elementary school up and I reached out to her and I was
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like oh my God this is so important this is so good because not a lot of people are talking about particularly about the
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impact of pornography but you know I had been worried working with younger kids that were having all kinds of
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sexualized um problems in school and getting kicked out and getting you know in trouble or whatever all kinds of
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things going on on up through the college age and understanding and Stephanie enlightening me to the to you
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know I don't I don't watch porn I'm just going to say that I don't but so her
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enlightening me to that aspect and to the fact that I wasn't asking my C cents
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necessarily I was acting asking because it's on my intake about their sexual
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experiences but most people do not see that as a question about pornography of course because I didn't either and I now
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ask about that because that's a really important piece and it's missing from
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from my work or was missing and just the cultural understanding and so Stephanie
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and I would have these long deep talks about what's going on in culture what
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I'm seeing in the mental health Arena how those things are merging and that kind of got us to the place of hey let's
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give a platform for parents to understand from the mouths of babes what's really happening under the covers
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behind the doors and what happens behind the closed doors in therapy like let's
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bring some of the therapeutic tools into play and what as Steph said what's beautiful is our guests have been in
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therapy almost all of them so so it's so nice because we don't have to say hey
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did you try this or this they're like hey I tried this and it worked this didn't but I tried this and it worked
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and so then our guests here again from the mouth of their peers um or the mouse of children if it's a parent of what
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works and it's been really validating very informing very powerful I think um
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you hear them all Jacob so you can tell us but I think really powerful because it is things that not everybody was
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talking about particularly about porn absolutely I think you know like Stephanie you said something that that
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it really resonated with me because it's something I say on the show quite a bit
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and that is it it's that like you're not alone aspect and I'm a decade out of homeschool at
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this point a little bit over now but one of the things that I think it took a long time I I went from yeah okay
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I had friends and I people had similar experiences to like then 2020 happen a lot of it feels like I'm alone and
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feeling this way and recognizing these things that happened to me as a kid and and I I didn't agree with them or I did
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agree with them or you know deal kind of processing and dealing with that stuff right um and it wasn't until I started
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contacting those old friends and being like hey what what do you think of this like just kind of bringing stuff up and
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and and really realizing that oh my gosh I'm not alone in feeling like the Purity
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culture we grew up in was like a mistake or that that this you know particular curriculum was a mistake or anything
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like that so to your point it was like having that ability to have those conversations to see to really see I'm
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not alone in this was amazing I think it's kind of like you know the truth is
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Jacob I believe all like that we are tribal people you know I mean in to some degree right like when I meet people who
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grow up who grew up Catholic I have an automatic affinity for them I feel like we're going to understand each other if
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I know somebody had Irish parents I'm like they understand parents be a little
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coldhearted you know like it's like we have an understanding you know it's the
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reason that there are these you know we can't use them to the exclusion of other
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people but we do have an identity that we understand and it does make us feel a little bit better when I hear other
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people who you know and and this is probably part of you know even uh people who are homeschooled when
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I know of people who were catholic that grew up having sexual experiences they probably didn't really you if they are
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Catholic I'm going to say probably didn't really use contraceptives all that much in a lot of the mindset it was
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like I am thinking that I'm going to sin before I actually sin I'd rather get
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into the moment be taken by surprise and then deal with the consequences later if
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that's confession or I'll never do that again you know what I mean and so it's
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like we kind of have that understanding of that mindset in many different levels
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right yeah and and Dr chz something that you said I mean you were the reason that
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I was attracted to when when Stephanie reached out and was like Hey we're looking for an editor and like I mean at
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first I was like oh no like Stephanie's like the anti-p porn mom and like all of
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these things and and I had kind of swung from this kid who was like porn is bad to like leaving the and being like Oh no
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like I don't need to have shame around porn anymore or sex or anything like that to all of a sudden I was like oh no
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I'm going back into the LI in St of somebody who who's going to make me feel
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bad about this but once I got on a call with you guys and really we started talking about things and I mean
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obviously chz you're a therapist so you you also know how to draw things out of
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people um which is an amazing skill but and started editing your show I realized
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it was it was not so much of yes there there's an anti-p porn element to it but
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it was more of what I had been asking as a kid was the question of well why is porn bad and given no answer to that and
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all of a sudden it was like oh this is why porn is bad also here's the results
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of mindset and behavior and things like that that come from this culture that we've built um and so yeah so I think
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editing your show has opened my eyes to a lot of things that I was like it's it can get dark it can get
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dark at times but at the same time I was like like you said a lot of the people who come on 7 on Sundays they've been
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through the process so yeah they have some some dark stories to tell but they've come out the other side and now
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are living in in the light um and so that was good and especially as a guy who guys tend to not get it all the
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time um it was it was helpful to kind of see things because a lot of your guests
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are are uh females uh and women and and to get it from that perspective and try to like actually listen and understand
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was eye opening yeah and I love having your male perspective and anytime you want to process stuff as seeing this as
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a male your age like that would be super helpful to us but I want to say two things one is the power of group work is
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exactly the You Are Not Alone thing and and what I've learned over the years is
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that no matter what we go through as a human as humans there is a universal Human Experience that there are parts to
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almost anything and everything that all of us feel related to in some way nothing is in a vacuum like I've learned
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that like every I say in every group that I do there's a twin there is somebody that you're like we both went
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through these five things oh my gosh we're soul sisters from you know another
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misters or whatever but um there's a Quin and there's also a challenger there's somebody in every group that
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kind of challenges you to see things a little differently and in the beginning when I start a group I can't tell you
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how many people come up to me privately and go I don't know if I want to do this
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group CU he or she's in there and I don't think that's really going to work
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for me or whatever and I'm like no no no that's that's lesson that's information
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that's fabulous you want that that's challenging you let's see what happens
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and in the end they realize hey the universe the human condition is universal we are no different even
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though you challenged me in the beginning because you were my Alter Ego mirror whatever it always works out that
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way so the power in groups and the power of knowing we're not alone is huge in my
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mind and that's why I do a lot of group work um and then the second thing you
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said is that porn I won't speak for Stephanie but I'm not so much saying I mean we kind of are but I'm not
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so much saying that porn is bad but hate aggression violence um non-consent all those things
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are what is so harmful and the reason why I'm interested in that is because I've been a sexual assault counselor for
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30 30 some years and I haven't seen the numbers go down and I've seen a lot of
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prevention efforts and I'm like why are we still seeing assault and abuse through the roof like more than ever it
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can't just be that more people are rep reporting there's also an increase so I
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wanted to understand that and I think that um with Stephanie's you know elucidations and and understanding and
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her research and then me diving into that research and understanding porn's input in that is is where we're coming
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from with that um back in the day when I was taught Sex Therapy um it was touted as yeah let
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people get ideas from pornography that was definitely part of my Hors workk and so but what I'm saying is that where my
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mindset is is anything that's hateful violent dangerous um misogynistic etc etc which
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those things are these days and have maybe always been for sure then uh that's what is is not helping Society
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not helping relationships in my mind yeah no what I was going to bring up too is kind of that I think one of the
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common Trends I see on your show and maybe it's not maybe trend is the wrong
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word but common commonalities between a lot of because you're interviewing a lot
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of college age kids I'm 28 so a little bit removed from that but still grew up
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in a lot of that is one of the questions that you guys get to a lot of PE a lot of times with
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these people is like well where how was your like your sexual pallet built what was it built upon where did did you get
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that information and that kind of a thing and a lot of us point it back to pornography and
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so again I mean I know Stephanie I know you've got data and and charts and numbers and all that kind of stuff that
00:24:14
that can correspond to this but like is that uptick in like I mean porn just sexual material is so much easier
00:24:21
to get a hold of now than than even like my dad's Generation Um but like that
00:24:28
setting of that appetite at such like a young age or even just the way it's being set now um with things like
00:24:35
pornography is that kind of like violent nature that's I mean I don't I don't
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really know what my question is here but that that's kind of setting this path to
00:24:43
keep those numbers High I'm assuming chz just like so they did an experiment
00:24:47
years ago with uh butterflies and what they found was that um butterflies when they're mating are attracted to
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butterflies with bright colors the brighter the color the bigger the wings the more the the male butterflies or
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whoever inseminates whatever you call the butterfly Behavior sexual behavior um they were attracted to the bigger
00:25:10
wings and the um and brighter colors so they experimented with creating cardboard wings that were bigger and
00:25:17
brighter than a than a any butterfly in nature and all of the male butterflies went to the butterfly with the bigger
00:25:24
wings and the brighter colors and that's kind of nature you know so when you're talking about
00:25:30
template the template doesn't matter whether it's violence or whether it's
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all of this um there's kind of a porn look to women for breasts what do the breasts look like what is more
00:25:41
attractive where are we when we see women of Darker skin colors we can be violent toward them because they get
00:25:49
more aggressive pornography toward them so we're setting that template that that
00:25:53
women of color deserve more violence and aggression we're setting the template
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that the only bodes that are worth finding um sexual deriving sexual um pleasure from are those bodies that have
00:26:05
these certain ratios and aspects right so you have that aspect I I would I don't know that Dr
00:26:15
Shez maybe is has articulated this as many times as I have but I would say that I do not think that there's
00:26:23
anything healthy in pornography in any way because even if I were to take it down to
00:26:29
to let's just say the sexual template was like in the 1970s where women had boobs of all different kinds they
00:26:36
weren't artificial you know whatever like if you create the perfect porn scenario you're still introducing
00:26:43
something that is artificial to the experience and you're it's still taking
00:26:50
people away many times let's just say the proliferation of pornography was all of this more
00:26:56
healthy you're still taking taking people away from the one-on-one interaction and I know Dr Shez would say
00:27:01
that as much as I would um you're taking people away from that create finding
00:27:06
that intimacy with each other this is not about just experimentation this is like literally it's kind of like
00:27:12
suppressing what you find with the other person and kind of bringing you into this realm where you then need it I mean
00:27:18
I have kids today who tell me well you don't like pornography how are we supposed to live without masturbation
00:27:24
and I'm like what do you mean masturbation and pornography are two entirely different things and they're
00:27:30
like no you can't masturbate without porn and I always say Okay masturbation
00:27:34
has been around as long as human beings have walked the planet okay yes pornography has been around less than
00:27:39
150 years are you telling me that people prior to 150 years ago were not masturbating I mean this is absurd and
00:27:45
what that should tell you is you should be scared that your brain has been that hijacked so I'm going to give one other
00:27:52
thing that I one reason why even if we took everything and everything was fine and maybe you didn't even get addicted
00:27:58
to you know using pornography how about the fact that probably by my estimation 90 plus perc of all females that are in
00:28:08
pornography have been trafficked into pornography many of them don't even understand that they're trafficked so I
00:28:14
can't ever take that away as a female I will never stand aside when females are
00:28:20
being abused and forced to do something and if you say oh sex work is empowering
00:28:25
I've literally been down this Rabbit Hole a million times it's not empower
00:28:28
ing there's no other job in the world where a woman would say I'm going to
00:28:31
take a job where I'm going to be physically abused because there's not one sex worker in the world who hasn't
00:28:36
been sexually assaulted in their line of work whether that's pornography or prostitution or escorting or stripping
00:28:42
or whatever they have all experienced sexual assault whether it was actual penetrative salt it doesn't ass salt it
00:28:47
doesn't matter so there's there's so many it's a many headed Hydra you have
00:28:52
to cut off so many things that's kind of where I land on the whole thing it's I'm
00:28:57
not what I feel is I don't feel um like I think what you what you're taking from the way that we
00:29:04
approach it I have absolute compassion and understanding for every human being that I talk to male or female that comes
00:29:12
to us because this is not them this is an industry that has lied and propagated profit over human beings
00:29:21
right has nothing to do with the human with with our demographic anyone honestly I just feel like they've been
00:29:28
lied to I shared this one when I was on your show before and I I I think I've
00:29:33
talked about it on the show before but um setting that template early of like if porn is the way that sex is because
00:29:43
because if we're lacking sex education uh which I was uh if porn is the template and that is okay so that's what
00:29:51
sex is when I'm finally with a partner that's what I'm going to I'm going to go
00:29:55
by well if that's not pleasurable to her or to them it like and and I but I've
00:30:02
been so programmed at this point to be like male pleasure is the dominant pleasure and she must be enjoying this
00:30:09
because that's what I've seen um and so yeah I think it's again like you said
00:30:17
it's a many it's it's a multi-headed Hydra it's setup for for um
00:30:25
non-satisfactory relationship ships and a setup for um not being honest and authentic in relationships because if it
00:30:35
is programmed from that then you're acting out something else instead of like really relating right and that's
00:30:43
what a lot of like my coup's work and my couple passion with couples is how do
00:30:49
you get back to human relations 100 person and we don't do that and maybe it's not just porn maybe it's this
00:30:57
social Med media ideal of how we're supposed to be in relationship or maybe I don't know you know all these
00:31:04
different influences but it's not um nobody's ever taught how to really connect and deeply relate in in positive
00:31:14
ways and in healthy ways we're not taught that kind of stuff and that to me is the most important teachings because
00:31:20
we are tribal beings we are animals that love being around others and love being
00:31:26
in relationship it's how we we mirror each other and it's how we heal and it's
00:31:31
how we you know do everything so um so if we were taught that in better ways but instead there's kind of this hidden
00:31:41
teacher and not just porn but again social media all other kinds of things so bringing that out in the open with
00:31:49
these kind of forums is really really helpful I think well let me ask you this then so so if we're not taught how to
00:31:57
how to have healthy relationships where where do you think people should start cuz I know for myself I struggle with
00:32:03
relationships I think I think a lot of young people do social media has screwed us really hard uh pornography has
00:32:12
screwed us at this point too but like yeah where where should someone start such a good question Jacob and so glad
00:32:19
you asked and I want to say too that your church kind of gave you some ideas about that so you're you're navigating
00:32:28
many things you know your church our churches give us ideas our peers give us ideas TV and movies give us ideas and
00:32:35
porn give us ideas but we're not getting the real skills and the real deal I
00:32:41
would love to see and as a matter of fact I just left Stephanie a message about this this morning but I would love
00:32:47
to see um it'd be nice if it was not a mandatory part but a part of every schooling of you know kids are not
00:32:56
getting along these days they're not they're they're having trouble bullying
00:32:59
and all kinds of things so I would love to see it part of the school system what
00:33:04
is more important than human relations to me there isn't anything I seem to be
00:33:10
teaching the same things over and over in my therapy and in my groups I've done
00:33:14
couples groups where we had 10 couples 8 to 10 couples I think it was 10 and we went through a 12-week module and it was
00:33:23
very interactive you know rewriting our vows to to what does that really mean what are we really vowing after you've
00:33:30
been married a certain number of years you know that kind of thing so I feel like those things would be something
00:33:38
that Stephanie and I can offer and I bet that they will continue to pop up because where there's a need things pop
00:33:45
up just during covid all these um coaches popped up and the world needed it because people in my field had huge
00:33:52
waiting list so I feel like maybe the need is going to get out there and we're
00:33:56
going to see people te teaching more and more you want to be careful though that
00:34:00
it's the right for the right reasons not just again for profit but for the right
00:34:05
reasons with the right kind of professionals that know what they're talking about and have lived it too you
00:34:13
know um I think when you're 20 I was in a whole different place with relationships than what I am now you
00:34:19
know 303 years into a marriage so you know there's there's different different
00:34:24
experiences too but I think that would be a amazing and let's start in elementary school with little modules
00:34:32
how do you how do you relate to each other how do you communicate healthily all those kind of things one of the
00:34:37
things that I implemented in 2024 and I want to continue in 2025 is I believe that the Universe sometimes puts people
00:34:45
in our heads to for for a reason and I I tried very hard in 2024 to when that person popped in my head send him a text
00:34:55
message film a quick video you know email text however Instagram whatever I could do to get a hold of them just to
00:35:02
say hi um and I had much more response to from people and like I I live far from a lot of my childhood friends and I
00:35:11
you know and family and things like that and so um so I had to find ways to kind
00:35:16
of kind of deal with that but um but what I was what I'm saying about that is
00:35:21
that that small connection point of just being like instead of going to that place of I think we go to this place a
00:35:26
lot of times where it's like they they're not going to have time for me they're not going to care they're not
00:35:31
going to respond whatever um and when I got outside of that and I said I don't
00:35:35
care if they respond I was thinking about them I'm just going to send them a
00:35:37
message say hi what's up I'm thinking of you I hope you're good I hope the kids
00:35:41
are good I hope whatever is good um that elicited so much response from people that I mean there was a point I was like
00:35:48
I can't keep up with my messages at this point because it was it was just crazy
00:35:54
and then so I don't I don't know um I don't know 100% where I was going with
00:36:00
that but uh but Stephanie I will let you I'll let you continue I think I know
00:36:04
where you were going with it I think um you and Dr Shez were answering two sides
00:36:08
of one question is where do you learn healthy relationships and I think you know she's right we can start really
00:36:14
young uh I I give my kids all the time books that I'm like this person knows a
00:36:20
lot and I think you know um I forget what Dr chez's term is when we have like
00:36:26
our selftaught therapy kind of stuff um but I really believe in that but I also encourage a lot of my young students
00:36:35
because I my college students are afraid they're in college they're they're
00:36:39
leaving college and then they're like what's going to happen on the other side
00:36:43
they've been so you know um surrounded by their their peer group and some of
00:36:50
their peer group works but a lot of them are just going to school so you know you
00:36:53
have a lot of time to socialize when you go out into the real world you're tired
00:36:56
you're making your dinner you're trying to get home to your animal and get your
00:37:00
apartment clean and all that kind of stuff and it's it's so much more time
00:37:05
consuming so I I really cannot encourage enough people to join gyms to join things that
00:37:15
you are that you like you know whatever your interest is if you've always wanted
00:37:21
to make model cars find a Meetup for people who love model cars if you love painting join go be go to the museum you
00:37:29
know when you you need a point of connection like you said great I love the fact that you did write that because
00:37:36
I think that's another excellent point is that you have to follow up with people your generation has gotten so
00:37:41
used to just texting and all that kind of stuff and which is great but it's not
00:37:46
real connection you know like you you want to make that like effort when you feel it but um but I would say finding
00:37:52
those things that are your interest and even if that is working with disabled adults or working at a soup kitchen you
00:37:59
will find more likeminded people and those things are out there but you actually actively have to be proactive
00:38:08
right in finding those spaces because we are experiencing epidemic loneliness in
00:38:14
this country and it is in all honesty I have to say my son is uh one of the guests on our show too
00:38:23
and it was that we talked a lot about loneliness he's like the third episode
00:38:26
or something like that and I thought oh this is he he even said and the girl who
00:38:30
was on with him were like you feel like a weirdo saying I feel lonely like nobody likes me you feel like a loser
00:38:36
right yeah but that's not actually the case what I have seen and I say this to
00:38:41
him all the time I go it's really funny that you were that episode because I
00:38:44
talked to so many young people and one of the underlying feelings of almost every single young person that I talk to
00:38:51
is a feeling of loneliness a feeling of like you said not having someone there who wants to listen and that's not
00:38:58
actually true you know I make a very very very concerted effort once a week one of my friends I grew I was in
00:39:05
California too I lived in California for 12 years many of my friends you build a
00:39:09
lot of friends when you have children because they they engage you daily with you know your friends and whatever I
00:39:15
built very strong friendships I make an effort once a week to walk for two hours
00:39:20
and talk to one of my friends we make an appointment I have a standing date with
00:39:23
all of my friends you have to do that yeah that's something that doesn't come
00:39:27
naturally to young men but you have to do that whether it's going to get coffee
00:39:32
going to you know cars in coffee or whatever it happens to be but you really have
00:39:38
to put yourself out there and not worry about oh they're going to think I'm so
00:39:42
weird I'm like reaching out to them they're gonna well who cares yeah yeah
00:39:47
they need you as much as you need them but no matter what anyone says they need you as much as you need them absolutely
00:39:53
no I 100% agree and I think in uh 20 23 I hit a wall where I was like I mean 2020 the world shut down everyone became
00:40:04
a Hermit kind of a thing I got stuck in that in 2023 I was like I got to go get a job because like I just can't be at
00:40:12
home all the I work from home so it's just like I can't be at home anymore and
00:40:15
I went and worked at a toy store and it was so much fun because it was just like
00:40:21
I got to see specifically Lego uh like I got to see like adults and kids play with this
00:40:29
thing that we all enjoyed and we collect and we have fun with right and so to your point it's like I found those
00:40:35
people that were into the same thing I was into essentially and I had so much happiness and joy from that um that I
00:40:43
still I mean just the other day I texted one of the guys that I met at that job who I didn't work with him he's just a
00:40:48
regular that comes in right um and we've built connection him and I um and his
00:40:53
kids and I and it's it it's fun you know it's out there um Lo libraries have
00:40:57
great meetups and things like that so the South people are always willing to talk that's one of the best parts about
00:41:02
being in the South I have to say I literally stop on the beach I'm walking my dog on the beach I'm like hey and
00:41:08
then it's like it's like hour later yeah yeah that's one of the greatest things
00:41:13
that like New Yorkers and philadelphians I'm from Philadelphia they look at you
00:41:16
like you're saying hello to me when I walk out of Wawa what's wrong with you
00:41:19
and I'm like no what's wrong with you this is how human beings survive a long
00:41:22
time yeah because we care about each other yeah yeah what I love Jacob about what you're saying is that you noticed
00:41:30
what you needed and you took action and that is what it takes is noticing enough
00:41:37
and feeling the pain Point enough to be like okay I'm going to make a change you
00:41:41
know because otherwise complacency feels easy sometimes and it feels like not making that effort when
00:41:48
the Surgeon General declared that loneliness was an epidemic I was just like yeeha yes like this is so important
00:41:56
that he's declaring that because it is at the root of so many things and and
00:42:01
we're in this technologically connected society that is the most emotionally
00:42:07
disconnected than ever particularly after covid so it takes that kind of conscious effort and conscious living to
00:42:16
make those changes so I love that you did that and there are many different ways that people can um can do that what
00:42:25
I'm seeing in my fi right now is even for men and again I feel like when the
00:42:31
need comes here the universe comes to meet some kind of need particularly for men who the suicide so high addiction
00:42:39
you know all these other things depression um there are men's groups popping up that are really healthy good
00:42:46
men's groups and again I'm like all Allelujah because I can't really do a
00:42:51
men's group in the same way that a male therapist or a male male person can a
00:42:56
male coach whatever it would be but like that's amazing and back 10 years ago if
00:43:01
I said to a client hey let me help you find a men's group they'd be like I'm
00:43:05
not doing that I'm not talking with other men about my problems you know they would not be into that so I do
00:43:12
think that there's more and more coming to help people but you do have to take
00:43:17
action and that's what I like that you did that and the fact that you did that
00:43:21
at a toy store you can't get any more like light and fun and joyful than seeing a kid get a new toy you know
00:43:29
exactly Christmas every day you know exactly yeah yeah no I think that was that was absolutely key to it and I like
00:43:38
what you said too about men's groups and I think one of the things grow growing up
00:43:44
in church and maybe you guys experienced this or maybe not but I think one of the
00:43:48
things that church uh kind of imprints on you is like that's sometimes where
00:43:53
the Hub is for you that's where your relationships are your friendships are everything kind of revolves around that
00:43:58
at at times and then for people like me who deconstructed and walked away from it you lose all that um and and there
00:44:09
has to be this disconnection because there's pain associated with that place
00:44:13
a lot of times um and that can be really isolating as well where then but because
00:44:19
church has taught you that you're your everything that you know all your relationships are built in this place
00:44:26
they're just gone and you are just lonely and so to build that outside of the church way harder than I think I
00:44:33
ever anticipated because to your point it takes that effort to actually go out and say I need something I need people I
00:44:39
need physical contact I need conversation I need all those things um because church just kind of builds that
00:44:46
for you and then just kind of throws you into that uh into that mix automatically
00:44:51
here's what you're bringing up which is so important and I know this for the
00:44:55
Mormon Church same thing you're whole Community your whole friendship base is
00:45:00
in there so then if you leave that you're left with the grief and it's unresolved grief because there isn't a
00:45:06
place or a way to really process that and what are you supposed to do with that unless you're in therapy and and
00:45:13
you've got a therapist that's going to kind of help with that but really that
00:45:17
is unresolved grief that you're walking around with like I had to make a choice
00:45:21
that actually made me leave some cool people that I actually liked but I just couldn't do both
00:45:27
right so um so it does bring a whole set of solutions I I would imagine I mean of
00:45:35
issues for sure and unknown Solutions like how do I handle that and then what I wanted to say about the the um the
00:45:44
other relationship skill building I'm talking more about like love relationships too there is a little bit
00:45:51
of that in church churches but really the nitty-gritty of one once you're in a
00:45:57
long-term relationship you are going to need to know how to communicate really well how to repair things how to accept
00:46:05
differences I am not you you are not me you know like how do we accept different
00:46:10
perspectives and allow for that and how do we repair when we have you know trouble which it's inevitable so those
00:46:19
are the kind of skills that I'm like the those can be taught starting really
00:46:23
young and starting with friendships and then grow into how you do that in significant love relationships and
00:46:31
families you know it's it all mixes in do you have any like resources or books
00:46:37
or I don't know anybody that you would Point people to to say hey if you want
00:46:41
to kind of start to understand some of these ideas of building that or for parents wanting to teach their kids how
00:46:47
to have good relationships do you have anything like that honestly like nothing's coming off the top of my head
00:46:54
to you um but let me let me keep thinking about it because something come to me I mean of course there's a lot of
00:47:01
great books out there my issue with books is you have to put the information into action right and I feel like that's
00:47:11
where the Gap is sometimes that we read things or I go to a lot of workshops and
00:47:17
training seminars and all I want to know I believe you on the stats I believe you
00:47:21
on the information I want to know how do we implement it how do we put it into practice in the best ways so I mean of
00:47:29
course people are doing that and of course there's modules out there on that
00:47:33
kind of stuff but um off the top of my head um I don't have anything right the
00:47:39
second because I go to like professional training things yeah but I don't know um
00:47:46
well I think too I mean something like I've been looking into uh even with like
00:47:50
this show is creating a book club around the show to read certain books about I don't know whatever they can even they
00:47:57
can also just be fun books but but to then have a group of people to talk about that and and you know maybe
00:48:05
it's not always implement it can be implement it depends on what you're reading right but I think with book book
00:48:09
clubs in general they tend to you can have conversation around things right but you also have that Community element
00:48:15
built in there where you go okay we're all reading the same thing we're all
00:48:18
kind of learning and processing the same thing now we can discuss it obviously of
00:48:22
course having someone who is like the trained professional in the room to walk you through that kind of thing is always
00:48:28
very helpful um but yeah so if if anything pops your brain let us know we'll also drop it in the show notes
00:48:34
I've got a great bookshelf of of stuff um not in this room but yeah so I'll
00:48:41
I'll I'll give you some resources I'll think about it um for sure but I love
00:48:46
that you're doing that kind of book club during Co I did a a self-help book club
00:48:51
and I didn't know how long Co would go on but I was like guys let's meet and
00:48:55
just read empowering things and it was what saved all of us we were so grateful to have that now that's 2024 ended 2024
00:49:04
I was like I'm reading books again massive bookshelf now and it's like you
00:49:09
know knowledge is power I'm gonna say I don't necessarily know that these are
00:49:14
like how to have healthier relationships kind of books but in the end of the day
00:49:19
people who are lonely are not very happy uh right like I mean loneliness is driving sadness and depression and all
00:49:27
of that kind of stuff um two books that come to my mind are um the the woman do you remember the woman who wrote that
00:49:36
book years ago like the Happiness Project it was like trying to like do some every every day of the year for 365
00:49:45
days she did a project it was called like project happiness and she wanted to see how much happier she can make she
00:49:53
could make herself by the end of it and a lot of it was like you have to be like
00:49:56
engaged in these kind of things so I think for somebody who's struggling with
00:50:00
loneliness if it was one of my kids I'd be like you know you should read something like this the interesting
00:50:03
thing about it is exactly what we were talking about is she was proactive about changing from where she was not a
00:50:11
particularly happy person to a happier person and um uh Oprah that book that just came out with Oprah um I could look
00:50:22
it up you might remember the name she has but it just came out she wrote it with somebody else and the whole premise
00:50:27
of that book is somebody who makes themselves happier and it's all about taking the initiative on yourself and so
00:50:34
that's hard because I think your generation has been sort of educated to you know find happiness and dopamine
00:50:43
hits from their phone and this is like the real true lasting dopamine like dopamine is an instant and gone right
00:50:51
right and you have to keep feeding that Beast the thing that naturally feeds that dopamine without needing you to
00:50:58
look through a phone watch porn go out and drive race cars is relationships that brings us it's a natural source of
00:51:06
Happiness right and and challenging ourselves and feeling like we have a purpose and I think both of those B
00:51:11
books serve that um serve that side of the happiness lonely issue yeah you will and I want to say also for your wife
00:51:22
like that was the one mistake I think a lot of people make when they're young
00:51:25
and freshly married married is that the partner is supposed to be the one who helps you to not be lonely and it's not
00:51:33
your partner's responsibility like that's ultimately like you have like and
00:51:36
I keep saying this to my kids it's not your partner's job yeah it's not my job
00:51:42
to keep my husband happy when he's semi-retired it's not it's not his job
00:51:46
to keep me happy you know what I mean like we are each other's partner but it's good that you find your tribe too I
00:51:53
was going to say too about the the dopamine hits one thing that me and my wife did over Christmas
00:51:59
so Christmas and the day after Christmas we decided no social media period we just turned it off deleted it removed it
00:52:06
hit it whatever we had to do um and we just kind of were trying to go like zero phone like and you know we called family
00:52:14
on the holidays but like we really did like zero phone and we just were like okay what's fun what's what are we going
00:52:20
to fill our time with that we have the day the whole day off what are we going to do you know we do a puzzle we watch a
00:52:28
movie we do things that we can't we play a game together you know things like
00:52:33
that where we were like we filled the whole day doing other things even product just productive things like
00:52:38
going through whatever we have been avoiding for the last three months you know whatever and at the end of the day
00:52:44
after those two days we were like I didn't even want to reinstall stuff onto
00:52:49
my phone I was just like I I feel so much better to the point where I was like I'm putting limits on this now like
00:52:55
it you know I have reminders now I'm like you've hit two hours today doing
00:52:59
social media you should probably be done um but I don't know it just like even
00:53:04
that short period you're talking 48 Hours of just deprogramming your brain from that dopamine hit to find other
00:53:11
things that bring you happiness was like GameChanger that's amazing that's that's
00:53:18
the conscious living that I'm talking about like being really intentioned really conscious that I think again more
00:53:26
more people are like you're not going to be alone in that you're inspiring me to
00:53:30
do that Stephanie too I'm sure but because it is true like it keeps us from being in nature it keeps us from
00:53:37
noticing what's in nature it keeps us from doing puzzles like do what do I do
00:53:42
on vacation I love doing puzzles because it's the time when I can do it but I
00:53:46
could do it any time a piece here or there but I don't because instead I'm
00:53:50
scrolling on my phone but that's so true and I think just really recognizing like
00:53:55
letting yourself be the experiment is such a powerful tool and to say how did I feel before during and after and then
00:54:04
share that with your spouse and be like okay so how do we both feel and how do we want to Institute this in maybe baby
00:54:11
steps is really cool um I'm wondering if Stephanie you're thinking of the book
00:54:16
and I haven't read it sorry but I haven't read it build the life you want
00:54:20
is that the oah one that you're yeah I just pulled it up yeah build life and
00:54:24
actually the opening story I don't know if you and I had this conversation but
00:54:27
the opening story is about a woman whose husband left her and she was had every reason to like want to be angry because
00:54:35
she was left for another woman I I believe that's the story I it's something along those lines and instead
00:54:42
she was like you know what no I am going to be the person I want to be it doesn't
00:54:47
matter whether I'm married to this person and they left me she went out and she and she's actually uh um I think
00:54:54
Arthur Brooks's mother-in-law and um she it's an amazing story because it just teaches you that
00:55:02
like you can sit around and you can wait for happiness to come to you or think it
00:55:05
comes from another person but she was like no my happiness is going to come from me being productive and me
00:55:11
following my purpose and not worrying about who else I'm taking care of my children they bring me love that's all I
00:55:19
have to do and she's an amazing example of it she literally built this amazing
00:55:23
life for herself without any regrets you you know and he he shares that as the story that's like the opening story of
00:55:30
the book but yeah I think I think it's I think it's really important to realize
00:55:35
that the that there is a verb that comes first you have to be active before you you have to give
00:55:44
happiness do happiness pursue happiness before you feel happiness yes we are the
00:55:51
artists of our life yeah and and that makes a difference when we um when we get that in a way that pushes the
00:55:59
momentum forward to be like oh yeah I control my life it doesn't control me yeah I think that's that's a big thing
00:56:06
that a lot of people need to take he up if you take anything away from today's
00:56:10
episode that that should be the biggest thing you control your own happiness yeah and the and the thing is that
00:56:16
dopamine I think if everybody's aware of dopamine because I I'm just as guilty as
00:56:21
anybody else you know we all have our different dopamine hits and fixes but but like you know I I feel like you have
00:56:29
to you have to have different times in life you can have times where you're like into your like dopamine hits or
00:56:35
whatever even though you try to keep it moderate but if you do then like scale back so that your brain can yes
00:56:41
rebalance itself because it is it is something that um you know it does you can have ere yeah and you can have an
00:56:50
overe ex expression of it and you know I mean actually you see that when kids stop using porn when individuals stop
00:56:55
using porn they have a period of life where they go through and it just feel Everything feels gray and dark and flat
00:57:03
and boring boring boring boring and it takes them it takes their brain a little while to reset so it's the same thing I
00:57:09
mean we're getting it in smaller doses but it's the same idea you have to be
00:57:14
always aware am I just being too uh needy for that dopamine hit if so you got to remind yourself go back to it
00:57:23
like stasis to healthy moderate level there is a very good book I just read it at the end of last year it's called
00:57:30
indistractable um it's by near iel I think is how you say his last name um I'll link it below but anyway the whole
00:57:36
premise of the book is to build a life that is indistractable right and he talks about you know we talk about
00:57:45
taking the phone and deleting all the apps or whatever the P taking the Ping and putting them away however when you
00:57:51
do that that craving for that dopamine hit is still there it's not just oh I I
00:57:58
switched to a dumb phone or I deleted every app it's also a retraining of the
00:58:02
brain to say now that I have this time what am I going to do with it and what am I going to do with that uncomfortable
00:58:07
feeling that I experience when like I mean how many of us like use our phones in the bathroom it's like what am I
00:58:13
going to do like instead of that it's like maybe just use the bathroom instead
00:58:18
um uh but like you have to retrain your mind to kind of do okay what what is the
00:58:25
thing that I'm going to do now now and and social media is not it's not all bad
00:58:29
I think it's a neutral that's my personal opinion I think it's a neutral
00:58:32
um it's what it's a tool that we use for good or for evil um and but we allow it
00:58:36
too much control in our Liv so indistractable a great a great book one of the things he recommends is building
00:58:42
out your calendar where it looks insane because every minute of every day is completely booked solid with everything
00:58:48
however it's a it's a visualization and training of the mind to say I'm going to
00:58:53
be doing XYZ for an hour for 15 minutes for 5 minutes for another hour for this long um and you schedule the fun stuff
00:59:00
in there too for an hour I'm going to sit down on the couch and have a conversation with my wife for you know
00:59:05
an hour I'm going to have lunch with a friend you know whatever it is but you
00:59:09
you visualize it and then you kind of your brain can kind of trick itself uh rewire itself in a way to kind of like
00:59:16
do that and find happiness in those things so great that's amazing that's
00:59:20
awesome can I say something I know we have to end but I just wanted to say two things um one is you know what Stephanie
00:59:28
was saying about the gray when things go gray in addictions that happens when you
00:59:33
take away your drugs your alcohol you're whatever it's the same exact thing it's
00:59:36
like the butterfly when it's so that experiment that they did when it's so
00:59:40
big and bright and beautiful and then you take that away the natural seems like huh that's not the same so you do
00:59:48
have to kind of sit with the gray exactly what you're saying just go to the bathroom be okay with the four walls
00:59:54
that are in there that's okay you but and then the other thing I wanted to say and this is this is kind of my Chism
01:00:02
stuff I and I know I know you both probably believe this I believe that we are here in the ultimate homeschool
01:00:09
right like this Earth do you hear that that little tie into the homeschool thing yeah I feel
01:00:14
like this Earth is the ultimate homeschooling of like we're learning our stuff and maybe the faster and the more
01:00:22
radically but positively that we can learn what feels the best to our heart and soul and our relationships and all
01:00:31
the important things our purpose however we get to that yes the distractions we don't need those for
01:00:39
homeschool for this heart homeschool for the real deal and we're so distractable
01:00:45
and we're so filled with distractions so I love that you brought up that book and
01:00:50
I haven't read that either I don't have I I don't have time to read books but I
01:00:54
need to but anyway I have time because I'm going to make my calendar like you
01:00:58
just said but um but anyway but I love speaking of it that way yeah I love audible I love audible Libby support
01:01:06
your local library Libby app get it for free don't have to pay yeah yes yeah
01:01:12
that's that's yeah liby libraries are my big my big support system this year so
01:01:17
um ladies this has been wonderful I appreciate both of you coming on and and sharing uh so I'm going to link seven on
01:01:24
Sundays Down Below in the description destion go take a listen if people want to reach out to you guys is there a best
01:01:29
way to do that uh yeah you can reach out through seven on Sundays um through our there's
01:01:37
a uh contact us page on seven on Sundays uh you can also reach out um to well you
01:01:46
know what you can I'll link I'll give you a link that you can add to your um
01:01:51
to the show description here of where they can reach out to us very cool yeah yep seven on Sundays down.com that link
01:02:01
number seven yes the number seven not the word the the number um yeah very important but thank you once again I'm
01:02:09
looking forward to Stephanie and chz are both going to come on individually as well um Stephanie I think we're going to
01:02:14
dive a little bit more into like porn addiction and sex education and things like that and chz I know we're going to
01:02:19
touch a little bit more on like family Dynamics and dealing with difficult people um things like that so if you
01:02:25
have questions for them shoot me an email at exhs [email protected] or shoot me a DM at exhs Club that's Instagram and I
01:02:33
know Tik Tok is probably banned at this point but it also works there for the time being as of recording this yeah we
01:02:39
got two days um but uh not going anywhere we'll see there's 200 days I heard my daughter said 200 more days I
01:02:48
don't know we got a lot of information floating out there we'll see we'll see
01:02:51
um but for sure email email is not going away people um the other thing there's a
01:02:56
link down below I'm starting a newsletter go fill all that out everything you know all the stuff is in
01:03:01
the description down below um yeah once again ladies this has been absolutely wonderful and to all my ex- homie
01:03:07
friends we'll see you next week okay peace [Music] [Music]