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What is good my exhies? It's your boy
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Jacob Gooden and we are back for another
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week in the exhomeschoolers club. Today
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I am joined by my brand new friend
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Charlie Monroe who aside from being a
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homeschool alum is a licensed family
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therapist and a former youth pastor.
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He's going to talk all about growing up
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in rural Michigan. Uh the role that
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religion played in his homeschool
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experience being right smack dab in the
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middle of six kids and uh yeah, let's
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just say his experience is anything but
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conventional. So, he's bringing his own
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deep insights, not only from his
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personal stuff, but also from his work
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uh in family therapy and working with
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some modern homeschool families. So, if
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that's you, if you're unpacking your
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past and thinking about the future of
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homeschooling, this episode is a must
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listen. I'm going to shut up now and
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turn it over to past me.
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[Music]
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Charlie, we're here. We're in the X
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homeschoolers club. Welcome to the
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exhomeschoolers club, my friend. It's
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good to finally be here. Well, uh, we
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got connected through Instagram.
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Actually, I think I liked one of your
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Instagram reels about being a
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homeschooled kid playing with Legos and,
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uh, and yeah, we ended up just kind of
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DMing and it took us a little while to
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actually like get on a call and and
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chat, but I'm glad we did. And so, we're
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here today and I'm stoked because you're
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going to share your homeschool
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experience with the audience. So, I
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don't want to sugarcoat it too much more
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other than that. I'm going to hand it
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over to you, but could you just like
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walk us through kind of set the stage,
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if you will, for your homeschool
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experience? How long were you
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homeschooled? Siblings, where do you sit
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in the sibling lineup? And then maybe
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like what a typical kind of like day
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looked like at the at the house. Yeah.
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So, I grew up in the country, so dirt
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roads, and we were a rural homeschool
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family, so we weren't part of co-ops for
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most of my time. And I was homeschooled
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K through 12. So that was my entire uh
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entire upbringing. So we were kind of in
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the middle of nowhere and there was six
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kids in the family and an aunt that
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lived with us for about 15 years and
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then my two parents and so household of
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nine and so in the kids I'm about in the
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middle. Uh we have an adopted older
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sister so kind of birth in the middle.
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Um but that's definitely the
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personality type that I took on was a
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middle child. Okay. And so we were kind
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of hobby farm people. We had, you know,
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animals that we would raise to eat and
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gardens that were raised to, you know,
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eat through the winter sort of
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situation. So a lot of that was
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integrated on day-to-day basis. Uh, so
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you know, if you weren't doing homework
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and were finished, probably about by
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noon or 1, there was chores to do
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outside that had to involve animals or
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the garden or something similar to that
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as part of the daily routine. So, that
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was kind of the day in the life. Okay.
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What kind of animals did you guys have
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on the farm? Uh, pretty much everything
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that wasn't considered a large animal.
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So, um, sheep, uh, goats. We did have a
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couple pigs and mostly chickens and
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turkeys and like a couple odd, you know,
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ducks or two here and there. Um, I think
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we dabbled in every small animal at one
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point. Okay. Yeah. My mom always wanted
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chickens. Begged and pegged begged for
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chickens. Never happened. We had friends
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who had chickens and goats and things
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like that. Our backyard just lended
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itself more to the garden. So, I I
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understand that when you're talking
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about, yeah, okay, we had
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responsibilities in the garden. Totally
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feel that. My whole responsibility
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upbringing was like you maintain the
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lawn and a lot of the garden and you
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know yeah take care of those things and
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like you know we'll be good get you
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outside a little bit get some sun. So
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I I'm curious cuz one of six kids that's
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I would classify that as a large
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homeschool family. I'm one of two. Um so
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like that role of like being a middle
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child. My family doesn't have that.
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We've got the oldest and we got the
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youngest. So, like what does that look
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like to you or how do you envision like
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middle kid status? Like what is that
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personality like? Yeah, and it varies a
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lot. And I mean personality archetypes
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only go so far, but like my next oldest
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sibling was 5 years older than me and
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then the next youngest was three years.
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So there was like an eight-year gap that
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I sat in between, right? So like with
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that like I was the youngest for a long
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time then I was the middle of two kind
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of different groups of children that
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were closer in age and then I was the
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oldest when they got out of the house.
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Mhm. So like the role I would say
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shifted. I think the younger years was
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much more like trying to battle to be
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part of the older kids because you're so
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much younger. I mean my next the oldest
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siblings nine years older than me. Yeah.
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So there's quite a gap there. Uh but
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then after that it was more of kind of a
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uh old older child. I was probably more
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of my teenage years. So Okay, makes
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sense. Um yeah, so I kind of had to flow
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between roles. Yeah, that's so
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interesting cuz yeah, I've I'm the
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oldest not only just like kid in my
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family, but then also like grandkid on
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both sides. So, like I just I know I I
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have always and will always sit in that
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like first kid mentality of like
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everything's got to be perfect and like
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you know it's a it it's a lot of
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pressure to put on yourself. But like I
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know that like I know my role in the
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family is like firstborn, but I also get
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to make the argument that like I'm the
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favorite because I was I was the first.
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Um
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even though that's not true, but um you
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know it's I don't know. It's fun. It's
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fun to mess with the rest of the family
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when it comes to that stuff. So, okay.
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So, you also brought up that you guys
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didn't participate in like co-ops in the
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area or anything like that. So,
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was your homeschooling experience really
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isolated then or or did you have other
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friends? You just didn't really do much
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together in in regards to school. Yes, I
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would characterize it as isolating.
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Okay. 100%. um especially the middle
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school, early high school years. Um I'd
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say there would be about three years in
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there that were
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um particularly isolating.
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And we did I did I I joined a co co-op
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later in the years and like the reasons
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why we were in one I'm sure that they
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would um the articulated reasons would
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vary today compared to probably what was
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said back then, but we just weren't
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involved in one. We did play homeschool
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basketball, but that was like two
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practices a week as the season started
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and then no practices and then games
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until about February. And so you kind of
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ran from November to February and that
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and then you had friends at church.
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Yeah. And we were pretty religious
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family. Our motivation for homeschool
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was primarily religious. Okay. Um which
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is a little bit of the exception to the
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norm kind of. But yeah, that's where
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that's where friendships came from and
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that was about it. Yeah, I think a lot
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of us can relate. I had a my mom
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involved me in co-ops from like pretty
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much day one, but we were a part of a
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Christian home educating
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system uh in Venture County. But yeah, a
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lot of friends. We we went to church
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together and then we were doing some
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school together and like very much just
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kind of I I remember feeling a little
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isolated. But I think that also had to
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stem from I did two years of public
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school right off the rip. So
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kindergarten, first grade was public
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school. Okay. So second grade was the
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transition. And that kind of tends to
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like I think I just was in the mindset
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of like I'm going to see my friends
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every day and then that wasn't a
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reality. So, even though I saw my
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friends on the regular, it just wasn't
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the same. Um, but if you never had that,
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like that's just normal, you know? It's
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just normal to like have only siblings
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and only parents and we see, you know,
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friends at church on Sunday and um, you
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know, not that it's not isolating, but
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just um, I don't know. I think I had a
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little bit of that like expansive
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not expansive mind but I had a little
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bit of that experience and so I could
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pull from like okay I know that this
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isn't like 100% normal. Yeah. I think I
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think another part of it that was
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isolating is I was probably the only
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extrovert in the family. Okay. So that
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definitely lended towards I think uh a
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different experience. Right. Yeah. I'm
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I'm married to an extrovert. I'm an
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ambbervert. So, I'm like 50/50. So, I
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get I have my moments. But yeah, we need
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we need people. And yeah,
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I'm curious too like with
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like you being in the middle of of so
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many kids, the like ways that like your
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parents managed that because obviously
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there was a big gap. So maybe it was
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kind of a little bit easier where like
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some of the the olders were more
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independent by the time the youngers
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were in the in the family, but like my
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mom only had to manage two students and
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we were three years apart. So like there
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was a difference, but like two students
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is a lot different than six students. Um
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and so she wasn't having to like
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the, you know, the curriculum wasn't
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really that much different. Uh and then
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once we got older, it was very much like
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we're handling our own stuff. I have
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friends from bigger families who the
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older kids at a point were teaching the
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younger kids how to read and write and
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do math and and those types of things.
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So, did your family operate like that or
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or or were you guys more kind of like
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independent or what? I don't know. Like,
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walk me through that. Yeah, it was I
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think independence for sure. Okay. Um, I
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don't have many memories of my older
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siblings, but I do know that like they I
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mean by the time I was six, my oldest
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sibling was 15. And by high school, we
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were all independently functioning. So,
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we would have the the textbook, we would
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read it, we would do the stuff, my mom
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would check it if she needed to.
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Sometimes there wasn't stuff to do.
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Sometimes it was just reading the
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chapter sort of thing. And like so the
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the involvement in that level was very
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low because it didn't have to be which
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was probably the the greatest strength
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that came from homeschooling was that
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independent functioning. So I mean I got
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one-on-one attention from my mom for
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those early years um uninterrupted.
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Yeah. You know and my homeschooling
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experience wasn't going to be five six
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hours a day. It was going to be more
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like two and a half three. Yeah. You
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know so it was it was a very short
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amount of time in comparison. You also
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brought up like religion playing a big
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part in your homeschool experience and
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maybe being a big catalyst for why you
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guys homeschooled. Yeah. Did that play
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itself into the curriculum as well being
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very like
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Christian curriculum?
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Evolution is bad. Yes. Okay. Yeah. You
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know, it's funny. It stood out to me one
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day because you don't really like you
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when you find the word or words to
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describe your experience for the first
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time, it makes you understand it better.
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And I remember I was reading a therapy
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intake um form for myself and I asked
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the question uh was your religious
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upbringing rigorous? Okay. And I was
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like yes absolutely was. That is the
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best word to date. It was a rigorous
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religious training system. There is
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always scripture, always a Christian
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ideal, always the God's way
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interpretation of circumstances
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integrated into everything
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almost all the time, not just in the
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curriculum, but also in like the normal
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conversations of the day-to-day in the
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household. And family life radio is on
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and TCT is on the TV and just like that.
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It's rigorous. I can agree with you that
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like I didn't always view mine as like
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super rigorous and I wouldn't my parents
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even today like if you ask my mom the
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reason she homeschooled not exclusively
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religious reasons. She didn't really
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care for the the the the u the school
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situation in the town we moved to in
00:12:00
second grade. My grandma had been
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nagging her about homeschooling and she
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was like, "Oh, let's just like give it a
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shot. Like I think maybe I could do
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this. I have some experience teaching
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like kind of a deal." And so while her
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reasons weren't exclusively religious,
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we were a religious family. So it just
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kind of bled itself into it and and we
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were in a religious environment with
00:12:20
Ventura and and we were part of the
00:12:24
Association of Christian Home Educators
00:12:26
of Ventura County, which was like they
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were that was the thing that was if you
00:12:30
wanted homeschool co-op, if you wanted
00:12:31
support in this arena, like you were
00:12:34
that or
00:12:35
that like that was your option. Um, and
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so I
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I I think until yeah, I was an adult, I
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don't know that I would have classified
00:12:46
it as like super rigorous or super just
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like always there, but it really was.
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And now as like an adult, I'm like
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sitting here going, it was in every
00:12:55
textbook. It was in everything we did.
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And that's so interesting when I now
00:13:01
talk to people who are who were not
00:13:02
homeschooled or even who were but didn't
00:13:05
have that religious aspect and they're
00:13:07
like, "Oh yeah, we didn't like study
00:13:09
Bible verses or we learned about like
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evolution and things like that." And I'm
00:13:13
like, "What?" Like, does that shock you
00:13:16
ever where you're just kind of like,
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"What? What does that even look like?
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Can you comprehend that at all?" I mean,
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I ended up substitute teaching for three
00:13:22
years as part of my uh career in the
00:13:25
past. And so like for me it's all very
00:13:27
normal and now that feels much more and
00:13:30
even like college too it's just like
00:13:32
those conversations are much more normal
00:13:35
and makes sense in the way that we did
00:13:39
education
00:13:40
in some capacities does not make a whole
00:13:43
lot of sense um to me now. Yeah. So you
00:13:48
got out of college. Let's let's kind of
00:13:50
talk about that transition then from the
00:13:53
home school world to the college world
00:13:56
and like was it immediate like hey I'm
00:13:59
graduating you know 18 I'm going to
00:14:02
college did you take some gap years did
00:14:04
you graduate early like and how was
00:14:07
getting into college cuz like I know for
00:14:08
me it wasn't an issue like I had
00:14:10
transcripts I had the whole I held the
00:14:11
whole deal but I know I've had previous
00:14:13
guests on who they're like my parents
00:14:15
didn't keep any type of anything so
00:14:18
getting into college was like its own
00:14:20
battle, but what did that what did that
00:14:22
look like for you? My parents were very
00:14:24
organized and um thought of those things
00:14:26
ahead of time. So, that wasn't an issue.
00:14:28
I think that was the biggest anxiety of
00:14:30
my later high school years was would I
00:14:32
not would I get in, but would I be able
00:14:34
to perform? Okay, because you have no
00:14:36
comparison model for how intelligent you
00:14:40
are. you have your handful of friends
00:14:41
and if they happen to be better at you
00:14:43
than other things, you don't know if
00:14:45
you're just dumb or incomp in
00:14:49
incompetent or you're just maybe the
00:14:51
lower end of these like select group of
00:14:53
people. And so you just have no idea.
00:14:56
And my and back then the ACT was what I
00:14:59
took instead of the SAT. and my ACT
00:15:02
score was decently high enough that it
00:15:04
was like, okay, I'm not an idiot and now
00:15:06
I know that, but will I still be able to
00:15:09
perform in school? And that first
00:15:10
semester was was very difficult. Um, and
00:15:15
very difficult in the sense of like I
00:15:17
just had no knowledge of things that
00:15:19
were considered common place. Like I my
00:15:21
first English class
00:15:23
um was a nightmare. I mean, I they told
00:15:25
me all these things you should probably
00:15:27
know before you're in this class, and
00:15:28
I've never heard of any of them in my
00:15:30
entire life. No. And learning what like
00:15:36
logical arguments had to be structured
00:15:38
as, like how to write a paper, like
00:15:40
thankfully I was a very like avid
00:15:43
reader, so that translated, but my major
00:15:46
was heavy paper writing, right, and very
00:15:49
low test taking. So, I had to put out a
00:15:51
lot of that kind of content. And that
00:15:53
was I'd never done that before. Yeah.
00:15:56
And I had never had to form
00:15:57
relationships with professors or use
00:15:59
services or know what they even were or
00:16:03
what to expect from them. And you know,
00:16:06
while some of that is still new for
00:16:08
college students who come out of the
00:16:09
high school experience, there's at least
00:16:10
a base concept of what that can look
00:16:13
like. And so, yeah, first semester was
00:16:16
stressful. I'm with you on the like the
00:16:19
college services thing. Like I didn't
00:16:20
realize there was like tutors and stuff
00:16:23
and I didn't have to pay them. Yeah. I
00:16:24
just had to like show up, you know, or
00:16:26
like office hours like professor office
00:16:28
hours. I was like I didn't understand. I
00:16:31
was like, "Oh, well, I don't want to
00:16:32
bother them." It's like, "No, this is
00:16:33
time they literally set aside to like
00:16:35
just talk to you about whatever it is
00:16:37
that you're struggling with. Cool." You
00:16:39
know, and once I figured that out, once
00:16:41
that clicked in my brain, I was like, I
00:16:43
can do this, you know? Like I can I got
00:16:46
this. You know, I can ask the dumb
00:16:47
questions. And I'm so thankful. I don't
00:16:50
know about you, I was like pretty
00:16:52
awkward my first semester. I didn't want
00:16:54
anybody to know I was homeschooled, so I
00:16:56
just told people I went to private
00:16:57
school. Um, but I also was really
00:17:00
awkward. And I had a professor who sat
00:17:02
me down. I was in her office for office
00:17:04
hours. And she goes, "Jacob, you have to
00:17:07
learn to like chill. Like you just got
00:17:09
to be cool with like who's in the room."
00:17:12
I wanted to work in the music industry.
00:17:13
She's like, "That's the thing. if you
00:17:14
want to be in the music industry, you
00:17:15
know how to you just have to know how to
00:17:16
like be there and be cool and you're
00:17:18
like the guy in the room be like just
00:17:21
shut up basically was like kind of the
00:17:24
it was the nice way of her being like
00:17:25
just shut up and just like sit in the
00:17:27
room and be cool like that's it. Um so
00:17:32
was that like I don't know did you have
00:17:34
any of that social weirdness where
00:17:35
you're like okay I'm learning things
00:17:37
really really fast like but or not or
00:17:40
not really you were an extrovert so
00:17:41
maybe it wasn't a problem for you. I
00:17:43
think there was definitely some
00:17:45
self-awareness, but I think my
00:17:47
nervousness quieted me at first more.
00:17:51
Okay. And then I became a lot more open
00:17:53
and outgoing. The I would say the year
00:17:55
the second year. Uh the conversation I
00:17:58
had from a professor was like he was
00:18:00
like you need to speak less
00:18:04
harshly and confidently about your
00:18:06
opinions in class because you are un
00:18:10
unintentionally shutting other people
00:18:11
out of the conversation who just don't
00:18:13
want to challenge what you just said.
00:18:15
Interesting. Which then the discourse
00:18:16
doesn't like continue. And I was very
00:18:18
that that surprised me. I've never been
00:18:21
I've never felt like an aggressive
00:18:22
person and I've never been described
00:18:24
that way or like dominating, but
00:18:27
apparently in some classes if I was
00:18:29
talking about certain particular topics
00:18:31
I could be very opinionated. Yeah. And
00:18:34
uh that was kind of that learning curve
00:18:35
for me. I had a professor uh I went to a
00:18:38
Christian college so talk about the
00:18:42
Christian upbringing. I just I just
00:18:43
carried that with me right into college.
00:18:45
I was like I kind of wanted that youth
00:18:47
group experience to just kind of
00:18:48
continue. Um, so because you went to
00:18:50
Greenville, right? I did. I went to
00:18:52
Greenville University. Yeah. And um
00:18:54
Yeah. Which which college did you go to
00:18:56
again? I'm blinking. Spring Arbor.
00:18:58
Spring Arbor. Okay. So, yeah, kind of
00:19:00
similar.
00:19:01
Sister Sister schools. Um, so I mean,
00:19:04
yeah, we had like I don't know about you
00:19:06
guys, we had like lifestyle agreement.
00:19:08
We had all these things that there was
00:19:09
like the do not do list. Um, we had like
00:19:13
girls can only come over to your dorm
00:19:14
certain days, for certain hours, four on
00:19:18
the floor. Everybody would talk about
00:19:20
four on the floor. Like, yeah, there was
00:19:23
there was all that. But I had a
00:19:24
professor who we took a religions class.
00:19:27
Um, and the first day he was just asking
00:19:31
us all these questions about like, you
00:19:34
know, do you believe that like this
00:19:35
story in the Bible is true? And then
00:19:37
like discuss, right? and you have a
00:19:39
bunch of Christian kids in there, like
00:19:40
they're going to be opinionated like
00:19:41
you're talking about. They're going to
00:19:42
be very like set like this is 100% true.
00:19:45
The Bible says it and then he would just
00:19:47
ask why. He would just be like that
00:19:49
annoying little kid who's just like the
00:19:51
answer is never good enough. It's just
00:19:52
always why why what you know? And um and
00:19:56
he's like when I when I when you want to
00:19:58
tap out, you just say Jesus. Like that's
00:20:00
the answer to everything at the end of
00:20:02
the day. Just say Jesus. That's your tap
00:20:04
out kind of a thing. But to your point
00:20:08
of like somebody would come in and say
00:20:10
something that it was like I'm not
00:20:12
talking to them anymore because like
00:20:13
there is no there is no discussion. They
00:20:16
are so set in what they believe.
00:20:18
Correct. Um
00:20:20
how how did that soften for you? Like
00:20:24
was that like hard to kind of like
00:20:25
soften that down for you or were you or
00:20:27
were you kind of like or was it an
00:20:29
instant like okay I think I get it. Like
00:20:31
I think I can see it. Yeah that's that's
00:20:33
a that could be a very long and
00:20:34
complicated story. Um,
00:20:38
the short answer is yes. That has all
00:20:40
softened quite a bit and it did pretty
00:20:42
quickly. Um, yeah, I don't know
00:20:45
necessarily why that was easier for me
00:20:49
or more of my go-to. Um, I think I just
00:20:52
found like the arguments of my
00:20:54
upbringing, the classic fundamental
00:20:56
evangelicalism,
00:20:58
I just guess I found it to be wanting in
00:21:00
the scholarship space of the university,
00:21:03
especially since I majored in like
00:21:05
ministry and psych. It just a lot of
00:21:07
those assumptions and like presented
00:21:10
facts got challenged very quickly,
00:21:12
right? And then some of those were slow
00:21:14
bleeds over the course of, you know, a
00:21:16
decade later. Yeah. Changing my mind of
00:21:19
some things. But yeah. So was the
00:21:22
intention I was going to ask you what
00:21:23
your degree was, but was the intention
00:21:25
then to like do something in ministry as
00:21:28
a career? Mhm. Okay. Yeah, that was the
00:21:31
explicit intention. Okay. And did you
00:21:33
end up going in ministry and and doing
00:21:35
that for? I did. Okay.
00:21:38
Yeah. I did seven years of youth
00:21:40
ministry. Uh loved it. Very we were very
00:21:44
successful in that process. Um but yeah,
00:21:47
I mean continuation of that
00:21:49
conversation, I just as time went on, I
00:21:53
moved farther and farther away from the
00:21:56
evangelical mindset and belief system
00:21:59
which eventually led in this whole
00:22:01
dramatic leaving uh because I didn't
00:22:03
believe enough things that I should
00:22:06
anymore, right? It uh it resulted in me
00:22:09
being told that I had to leave which was
00:22:12
a whole dramatic situation. Yeah, I can
00:22:15
I can imagine. I also walked away from
00:22:18
from religion. and just kind of was that
00:22:20
slow slow burn of like I think I don't I
00:22:27
call it like an unraveling for me like
00:22:30
it was like once one thing kind of got
00:22:33
pulled once the thread of like one thing
00:22:35
got pulled like an example I give a lot
00:22:38
of times is like the story of Noah and
00:22:40
like the the legitimacy of it and like
00:22:43
is it a parable or is it history right
00:22:46
and if it's also history to what scope
00:22:49
is Is it reality? Was it the whole
00:22:50
world? Was it a a section of the world?
00:22:52
And once I started to like question
00:22:54
that, I kind of pulled I just kept
00:22:56
pulling that thread. And I it was kind
00:22:59
of my undoing in a lot of ways, but in a
00:23:02
in a good way. like I don't I don't
00:23:04
regret it, but I just it's interesting
00:23:08
to look at that and be like, okay, that
00:23:09
was kind of this start for this whole
00:23:11
thing of starting to be like questioning
00:23:14
the legitimacy of everything in the
00:23:16
Bible and everything that my pastors had
00:23:18
told me and and starting to look at like
00:23:20
other things. So now I sit in a place of
00:23:23
like I still think I'm kind of spiritual
00:23:26
and I still pull aspects of the Bible
00:23:28
and I think that they're good and
00:23:30
healthy and um you know examples of of
00:23:34
being just a good human being but my
00:23:37
overall power source if you will my
00:23:40
higher being is not is no longer a god.
00:23:43
It's just it's just humanity. It's just
00:23:45
the the shared experience of humanity.
00:23:47
So, um, it's funny how people go to
00:23:50
Christian colleges and then I feel like
00:23:52
you either you either go way further
00:23:54
into it or you just that unraveling
00:23:57
happens. Yeah, it does. And I just think
00:24:00
like I think those places would have a
00:24:03
lot more happy
00:24:06
alumni 10 years later if there had been
00:24:09
more nuance
00:24:12
integrated into the belief system. I
00:24:15
think a lot of us come away
00:24:17
And we see the hardline like very
00:24:20
literal fundamentalistics thought
00:24:22
processes is just so ridiculous. Yeah.
00:24:25
Uh disrespectfully using that word but
00:24:28
just absolutely ridiculous as to you
00:24:30
learn more and time goes on that you
00:24:31
just can't really have a lot of faith in
00:24:33
much else that's being said which is
00:24:35
kind of the probably the not fair part.
00:24:37
Okay. But if someone had come along and
00:24:40
had admitted the complexity or the
00:24:44
struggles of scripture, much less just
00:24:47
Christian morals and ethics, um I think
00:24:50
as adults you'd have a little more
00:24:51
respect at least for that individual and
00:24:55
belief system rather than now this kind
00:24:56
of like get me as far away from this as
00:24:59
possible sort of feeling that you have
00:25:01
now in your system once you kind of get
00:25:02
out of it. So things are just a lot more
00:25:04
gray than I think we were raised to
00:25:06
believe. is the black and white tendency
00:25:08
is just it's
00:25:12
it's it's an interesting one. I had a
00:25:14
conversation with a friend not that long
00:25:15
ago. We were talking about
00:25:18
the binary of just the world we exist
00:25:20
in. Um and and they are they are a non
00:25:26
non-binary person. And so it was
00:25:28
interesting to like talk to them and
00:25:30
they were even pushing back on me
00:25:32
talking about like good versus bad and
00:25:34
like things like that. And they're like
00:25:35
that's just like that's your opinion.
00:25:36
And that's but you're also still putting
00:25:38
that like black and white label on
00:25:39
things. I'm like sitting here going
00:25:41
like, "Oh my god, my brain hurts from
00:25:43
like trying to think like this because
00:25:44
it's just been years and years and years
00:25:46
of always thinking it's like it's it's
00:25:48
yes or it's no. It's black or it's
00:25:50
white." Like it's just it's one of those
00:25:52
things. Yeah. And when you get to that
00:25:54
place of like being able to be like,
00:25:55
"Okay, no, there's a whole spectrum of
00:25:57
gray in the middle of that."
00:26:00
That's I I argue that's where the fun
00:26:02
begins because you're like there's just
00:26:04
so many things that like you can explore
00:26:07
and and embrace and enjoy um and ask
00:26:10
questions about and we don't need to
00:26:11
feel guilty about asking those questions
00:26:14
anymore. Um at least I don't. That's
00:26:17
that's something I'm working on is like
00:26:18
not feeling the guilt to be like I can
00:26:20
ask these questions and pursue something
00:26:23
that's just different than what I was
00:26:24
brought up to believe. Yeah. You're no
00:26:27
longer plagued by the constant
00:26:30
um thought or fear. Am I doing the wrong
00:26:33
thing or the right thing? And like you
00:26:36
said, thinking in black and white.
00:26:39
Yeah. So, you asked everything you just
00:26:41
said. Yeah. So, after
00:26:45
youth ministry,
00:26:47
you you I'm going to say step out of
00:26:49
that, but you leave that um in some
00:26:52
maybe not so nice uh some maybe not so
00:26:54
nice ways, but what was the next step? I
00:26:58
know like where where did you go from
00:27:00
there and where are we today? A couple
00:27:03
places I think vocationally and then
00:27:05
mentally. Um so I had in during that
00:27:08
time frame of youth ministry and my last
00:27:10
four years of youth ministry were like
00:27:11
my most successful years by far. Mh. Uh
00:27:14
which is why it was such an abrupt and
00:27:16
harsh ending. And like the the big piece
00:27:18
that ended up being the final straw was
00:27:20
once I expressed what was the word um
00:27:24
uncertainty around the interpretation of
00:27:26
the scriptures around the LGBTQIA
00:27:28
community. That's when they were like
00:27:31
you're out gone. So that was that was
00:27:33
it. So my first I shifted during that
00:27:36
time I was getting my license to be a
00:27:38
therapist. I was going to school. Um I
00:27:40
kind of seen the writing on the wall a
00:27:41
little bit that I wasn't going to be in
00:27:43
here forever. Okay. And thank God truly
00:27:47
like that I did because I would have had
00:27:49
very little to fall back on. So I
00:27:50
immediately hopped into that after that
00:27:53
whole thing done was done and that's
00:27:54
been about three years now. And the
00:27:57
first place I'd say mentally ended up
00:27:59
was very angry place. Mhm. In a very
00:28:02
like burn this whole
00:28:05
whatever this is down sort of situation
00:28:09
and like didn't really have any way to
00:28:11
express that. And so thankfully I think
00:28:14
kept a lot of that
00:28:17
um coped with because I was probably in
00:28:20
a much more angry place. tried writing a
00:28:24
couple books or chapters. Um I can't
00:28:27
remember the titles, but they had to do
00:28:28
with like homeschooling
00:28:30
or um evangelical experiences. Um I
00:28:34
can't remember it was it was some of
00:28:36
them were humorous titles, but whatever.
00:28:38
Like I was working through it and then
00:28:39
as time went on I kind of ended up more
00:28:41
in that gray space of just kind of like
00:28:44
trying to burn this down is not worth my
00:28:47
time. Yeah.
00:28:49
and uh much healthier space now. But
00:28:52
yeah, the first year and a half was very
00:28:55
angry. I I feel you. I a lot of my
00:28:58
deconstruction happened and I was
00:29:00
working in a restaurant and I I would
00:29:03
work this Saturday morning shift that
00:29:04
was 5:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. and I worked
00:29:07
at a barbecue restaurant. So smoking
00:29:09
meat, prepping sides, all that kind of
00:29:11
stuff. And I would just listen to like
00:29:13
theologians and podcasts about like
00:29:15
deconstructing and other just views on
00:29:18
religion and things like that. And I'm
00:29:20
glad I was in a kitchen because I would
00:29:22
get angry like you were talking about.
00:29:23
I'd have I had this like really solid
00:29:26
anchor and I could just take it out on
00:29:28
like you know whipping like potatoes or
00:29:32
you know like you know uh like salting
00:29:36
meat basically and like punching these
00:29:38
big old racks of you know brisket and
00:29:40
stuff like that. Um
00:29:43
but yeah there was a lot of that like
00:29:45
anger and even this show the the
00:29:47
original version of the show
00:29:50
was angry. It was very much like the the
00:29:53
new tag is like the good, the bad, and
00:29:54
the ugly of homeschooling. The original
00:29:56
tag was just the bad, and the ugly. Um,
00:29:59
it was very much like I just wanted to
00:30:01
hear people all over their
00:30:04
homeschool experience. Yeah. And I
00:30:06
totally get that. And it wasn't until I
00:30:08
kind of like you you start to distance
00:30:10
yourself, right? And you kind of calm
00:30:11
down after a little bit. You go, okay,
00:30:13
like maybe not everything was bad. Well,
00:30:16
this is my this is my experience. Maybe
00:30:17
not everything was bad. Yeah, there was
00:30:19
some good mixed in there.
00:30:21
And let's bring that to the surface as
00:30:23
well, you know. Um, we can still talk
00:30:25
about the bad and the ugly. We can talk
00:30:27
about the things that that probably need
00:30:28
to change, but let's also not forget
00:30:32
that there's like there's funny moments,
00:30:34
there's good moments.
00:30:36
I learned a lot of stuff, you know, like
00:30:38
I still Yeah, correct. felt, you know,
00:30:40
and so being able to highlight some of
00:30:42
that as well
00:30:44
was in there. Yeah, it was in there.
00:30:46
Sorry, I was as you were talking I
00:30:47
decided to pull up my um working titles
00:30:50
I was talking about and that one of them
00:30:52
the first one is a recovering
00:30:54
homeschooler
00:30:56
um the death of an evangelical golden
00:30:57
boy. That was a little dramatic. Love
00:30:59
that. Uh the fragility of Christian
00:31:01
intellectualism
00:31:03
um and 12 reflections on homeschooling
00:31:05
was just a short version of that that I
00:31:07
thrown together. But yeah, that was
00:31:08
those were the working titles as you can
00:31:10
tell. A little a little aggressive
00:31:11
dramatic. Yeah, I you know I could see a
00:31:14
New York Times bestseller in there
00:31:15
somewhere. Maybe, you know, maybe a
00:31:17
little retooling, but I I think it's in
00:31:18
there. Yeah, maybe.
00:31:21
So now, so maybe I'll still write it
00:31:23
someday. Yeah. Hey, you know, you you've
00:31:27
sat with it, you know, maybe you could
00:31:28
come back, maybe, you know, tweak it
00:31:30
just a little bit, you know, a little
00:31:31
less harsh. A little less harsh, but,
00:31:33
you know, still in there. You know, you
00:31:34
still need the call to action at the end
00:31:36
of it. You know, what's the what's the
00:31:37
next step for people? So, so you leave
00:31:40
the church, get your license as a
00:31:42
therapist,
00:31:44
start working in therapy. What specific
00:31:47
arena of therapy do you work in? Yeah, I
00:31:51
got into a couple unique spaces. Um, so
00:31:54
through a connection, I got into family
00:31:56
therapy uh with a local community mental
00:31:59
health agency and doing their intensive
00:32:01
homebased programming. So, I go to the
00:32:03
family's homes to do therapy. So it's a
00:32:05
social work typically a social work role
00:32:08
but we are doing therapy within it.
00:32:10
Okay. Um so it's not like a CPS role but
00:32:14
a therapist role more in that sense but
00:32:16
I mean the families we're working with I
00:32:19
mean nine out of 10 of them have like
00:32:21
CPS involved at some point. So it's kind
00:32:23
of that that clientele. Um and in that
00:32:26
world we came across some homeschool
00:32:27
families that we worked with as well.
00:32:29
did some private practice um moonlight
00:32:32
with some uh potentially moonlighting
00:32:34
this some in a juvenile facility coming
00:32:36
up. But yeah. Well, so because one of
00:32:39
the things you and I chatted about
00:32:40
previously was the fact that yeah,
00:32:42
you've you now have like as a therapist
00:32:46
been able to work with homeschool
00:32:47
families who maybe are transitioning
00:32:48
their kids back into public school or
00:32:50
transitioning kids from public school
00:32:52
into like a homeschool environment,
00:32:54
things like that. But what are what are
00:32:57
you seeing? Because like obviously like
00:32:58
I'm 10 years removed from home school at
00:33:00
this point. Um and you're probably about
00:33:02
the same. And so like what are what are
00:33:06
we seeing in the homeschool world today?
00:33:08
And like what do you I don't know. I
00:33:10
guess I'll just leave it at that. What
00:33:12
do what are we seeing when it comes to
00:33:13
that kind of environment now? And one
00:33:16
like I've seen both sides. So I've seen
00:33:18
in I would say in youth ministry I saw a
00:33:20
lot of very successful homeschool
00:33:22
families. And now in therapy, I've seen
00:33:24
a lot of unsuccessful situations. Um,
00:33:26
one, I would just say the scope of what
00:33:28
is accessible to homesooled families is
00:33:31
so radically different, right, than it
00:33:33
was 10 years ago. I mean, it in some
00:33:35
instances, you might as well just call
00:33:37
it private school because that is
00:33:38
probably more of what options the level
00:33:42
of options that now are available. I
00:33:43
mean, instead of just one sport, you
00:33:45
know, in Michigan like basketball, you
00:33:47
now have like four or five you can
00:33:48
choose from and you can be active in it
00:33:50
almost year round. you know, you have
00:33:52
co-ops that actually have like educated
00:33:54
individuals who are going to present or
00:33:56
teach some sort of topic that they're
00:33:58
actually like qualified to discuss. And
00:34:00
so like you have start having more
00:34:04
accessibility. And this granted this is
00:34:06
in a large city. I'm in the capital city
00:34:07
of Michigan. So some of that's natural
00:34:09
because of the space we're in. So like
00:34:11
to give homeschooling credit in its
00:34:12
current state. Um there is a lot of
00:34:16
options. Yeah.
00:34:18
Um but even then like options like that
00:34:20
still typically involve some sort of
00:34:21
monetary or social connection. And so
00:34:24
for those who are not successful in it,
00:34:27
there still remains a pretty big theme
00:34:29
of isolation.
00:34:31
And
00:34:35
what is making them unsuccessful
00:34:38
is
00:34:39
a dynamic that I've seen happen in I
00:34:42
would say pretty much every homeschool
00:34:44
family that I have known both successful
00:34:46
and unsuccessful is one of the dangers
00:34:48
is like this emotional
00:34:51
this unhealthy emotional inshment or
00:34:54
reliance on my kids to regulate me.
00:34:59
So like you have a lot of time with your
00:35:02
kids which is great. You get close
00:35:05
they're close to you. You kind of get
00:35:08
applauded applauded as that as a healthy
00:35:10
thing and it is clearly but then like
00:35:14
when one person gets upset in that
00:35:16
family
00:35:18
everyone is now upset with them. Like
00:35:20
there's this kind of imshment like no
00:35:22
one's really emotionally functioning
00:35:24
apart from each other a whole lot. So
00:35:27
then when that goes south, it goes south
00:35:32
very quickly. So when somebody decides
00:35:34
that they're going to start performing
00:35:36
behaviors in a poor way, it's like not
00:35:40
only is it just a behavior of a kid I
00:35:42
have to manage, it's now a personal
00:35:44
attack. It's now something that is like
00:35:46
devastating my identity as a parent or
00:35:49
especially homeschooled parents who have
00:35:50
a lot of pressure to feel successful and
00:35:53
now and the other siblings are getting
00:35:54
pulled down in it and like this family
00:35:56
drama
00:35:58
instead of there being a natural break
00:35:59
where the kids go to school for eight
00:36:01
hours a day. It's constantly around you,
00:36:05
right, all the time
00:36:07
and you don't have separation from that,
00:36:09
which means you don't have perspective.
00:36:11
You're not getting a break. And then
00:36:12
that just goes to a potentially a very
00:36:15
bitter place very quickly or an
00:36:17
apathetic place where you just throw
00:36:18
your hands up and I'm like, I'm done.
00:36:20
Yeah. And we're just going to kind of
00:36:22
coexist. And that relationship is
00:36:26
getting saved when these kids get out of
00:36:29
the home and transition to public
00:36:31
school. get some professionals to work
00:36:32
with them because usually when things
00:36:34
blow up, school has either been not
00:36:36
happening, happening very rarely or has
00:36:39
been happening poorly enough that
00:36:40
they're not getting the education they
00:36:41
deserve or need. So, there's
00:36:43
professionals at school working with
00:36:44
them and that and now mom or dad are
00:36:46
both finally have a break and are able
00:36:48
to kind of emotionally separate and
00:36:50
recover
00:36:51
and kind of have some independence from
00:36:54
that space. So, like when that stuff
00:36:57
goes south, I just feel like it goes
00:36:58
really south. to your point, it's like
00:37:03
I've had multiple people on the show who
00:37:05
we've talked about
00:37:07
the difficulty of of specifically
00:37:10
usually mom because mom tends to do the
00:37:13
majority of the teaching, dad is out in
00:37:15
the typical format. Dad is dad's
00:37:17
working, mom's teaching.
00:37:19
And um but we we've talked about that
00:37:23
the separation when kids get older and
00:37:25
like mom still doesn't know how to turn
00:37:27
off like the teacher and still kind of
00:37:29
has that like attachment. Um and so even
00:37:32
when like you're in college or you get
00:37:34
out of college and your mom is still
00:37:35
just kind of like on you about stuff
00:37:38
that you're like, "Mom, I'm not a kid
00:37:39
anymore. Like I'm not I don't need you
00:37:40
to be teacher anymore." Um, I know
00:37:42
that's a little bit different than what
00:37:44
you were describing, but like
00:37:46
that's the closest I think I can relate
00:37:48
to just that like that thought process
00:37:50
of like, man, your emotions being so
00:37:53
intertwined that when when little Johnny
00:37:55
has a bad day, now mom has a bad day and
00:37:58
dad's got a bad day and there's no you
00:38:02
need that break, right? You need like
00:38:03
you were talking about like being able
00:38:04
to send a kid away for a few hours a day
00:38:07
just to be able to like reset, maybe
00:38:09
focus on yourself. That's important. I
00:38:12
don't think a lot of people I don't
00:38:14
think a lot of homesooled parents
00:38:17
know how to do like the self-love thing,
00:38:19
like know how to take care of themselves
00:38:22
emotionally sometimes. And I think too
00:38:24
like when you have people and not this
00:38:28
is not every situation but there's
00:38:29
definitely a lot of homeschooling
00:38:30
parents who one of one of the motivating
00:38:33
factors emotionally is pretty much like
00:38:35
an anxious attachment disorder like the
00:38:38
separation anxiety for them between them
00:38:40
and their kid um is really high right
00:38:44
and then that gets moralized or
00:38:46
supported by some like you know I'd
00:38:48
never send my kid to daycare cuz when
00:38:50
they're there and they see me they cry
00:38:52
even though that's such a
00:38:53
misinterpretation of the experience or
00:38:56
like I wouldn't ever send my kid to the
00:38:58
public school and be apart from them.
00:38:59
They need me. When the reality is is you
00:39:01
need them, right? And that's a very big
00:39:04
difference uh and a very important
00:39:07
perspective to remember is like your
00:39:09
kids are actually probably functioning
00:39:10
independently from you fine.
00:39:14
You know, nine out of 10 times. You
00:39:16
know, you can have a conversation about
00:39:18
what is too much and you can try to
00:39:19
figure that out, but you kind of have to
00:39:21
see you kind of have to figure that out
00:39:22
by the experience of like how are your
00:39:24
kids doing and functioning and
00:39:25
developing and how are they relating to
00:39:27
other people and yourself. But I think a
00:39:29
lot of these individuals
00:39:31
because they are anxiously attached that
00:39:34
gets moralized
00:39:36
and that's used as a motivator. And then
00:39:38
when that day happens when kids grow up
00:39:40
and they do have to leave it's
00:39:43
really starting to be evident that this
00:39:45
was more about the parent than the kid,
00:39:47
right? And that becomes a rough
00:39:49
experience. And then kids are trying to
00:39:52
get away from that sometimes
00:39:55
and they're trying to really get away
00:39:58
from that. Yeah. Which creates a lot of
00:40:00
hurt. Like why do you want to get away
00:40:01
from me? Well, it's because you need me
00:40:03
to be okay and then I don't want to fill
00:40:05
that role and that's not my role. And
00:40:08
that's a very oppressive role. Yeah. My
00:40:13
mom and I talk about a lot about her
00:40:18
emotional health. Both actually both my
00:40:21
parents, but one of the things that
00:40:23
we've had to work through together was
00:40:26
the fact that she's like, I she
00:40:27
recognizes that she was not an
00:40:28
emotionally healthy person when she
00:40:30
started homeschooling and when my sister
00:40:31
and I were little kids. And um and so
00:40:35
something we've talked about and we've
00:40:36
had to like work through and and things
00:40:38
like that. And she's like, I today when
00:40:41
she talks to parents who are like, I'm
00:40:44
thinking about homeschooling, she's
00:40:45
like, okay, well, are you are you
00:40:47
emotionally good? I think to your point,
00:40:50
can you live without your kid? Like, can
00:40:51
you be are you your own individual
00:40:54
person? Because I don't know that she
00:40:56
really was that when she started
00:40:57
homeschooling us. And she became that as
00:40:59
we got older. Um I think she healed a
00:41:02
lot. I don't think that the transition
00:41:04
was terrible to adulthood, but um but it
00:41:09
it's been one of those interesting
00:41:10
conversations to have with her to kind
00:41:11
of be like, okay, like you know that
00:41:14
this sucked like you you've seen that
00:41:17
pattern in yourself or you know that
00:41:19
like
00:41:20
you needed us or you just weren't
00:41:22
emotionally good or like whatever the
00:41:24
the reason was that you were like just
00:41:27
you were not 100%.
00:41:29
and you would do that's the that's the
00:41:31
main thing you would change is you would
00:41:33
be like, "Okay, let me be emotionally in
00:41:35
a better place and then we could
00:41:37
homeschool and I think the experience
00:41:38
would be drastically better." Um, I had
00:41:42
a friend on not that long ago and we
00:41:44
were talking about she started
00:41:46
homeschooling her kids and then they're
00:41:47
now in um public or private school. I'm
00:41:50
blanking. But the reason she did that
00:41:53
was because she realized that she was
00:41:55
like she was having issues. She was
00:41:58
like, "I can't
00:42:00
regulate myself. I can't do anything and
00:42:03
they're just here constantly and I have
00:42:05
no alone time and I have no anything."
00:42:07
And as soon as they went to school, even
00:42:09
though it was hard for her, she started
00:42:11
to be like, "Okay, I'm okay now. And now
00:42:13
I can be mom. I can be the better
00:42:15
version of mom and I can go and advocate
00:42:17
for my kids in school and make sure my
00:42:19
kids have the best education." And her
00:42:20
kids are thriving. They're like
00:42:22
geniuses. to your point about like the
00:42:24
moral justification that homeschooling
00:42:27
gives, like
00:42:30
where do you think that messaging comes
00:42:32
from? And maybe you don't know. I just
00:42:34
I'm
00:42:36
I'm interested like where do you think
00:42:37
that comes from? And then also like
00:42:39
there's also this message of like public
00:42:41
school is bad and public school is evil.
00:42:43
Like
00:42:46
I I don't know. Like and and I think
00:42:47
homes school parents get that in their
00:42:48
brain if they're like, "Oh, I don't I
00:42:50
don't want bad for my kids. So like, let
00:42:52
me take them out and let me remove them
00:42:53
from that and I can do better at home."
00:42:56
Yeah. I mean the first one the simple
00:42:59
question answer to that is I think some
00:43:01
of that is the
00:43:03
golden era of history sort of trad life.
00:43:08
Um
00:43:10
I'm trying to think of the word for it
00:43:12
but essentially making that sound like
00:43:13
it was some perfect desirable part of
00:43:17
human experience that we need to go back
00:43:19
to. um that the ones room schoolhouse
00:43:22
was probably the best school experience
00:43:24
in North America and then everything
00:43:26
past that sucks. You know, whatever that
00:43:29
not that it would be said out loud, but
00:43:31
that's kind of like the idealization of
00:43:32
like Little House in the Prairie era of
00:43:35
education um and the family involvement
00:43:38
and all those things. I mean, I think
00:43:42
there's some like glorification of that
00:43:44
that comes into it, but I think more of
00:43:46
it does come like statistically is like
00:43:48
in the 70 percentile parents will talk
00:43:50
about the public school being poor as a
00:43:54
reason they homeschool. Um, and I I
00:43:56
think like like that's fair in a lot of
00:44:00
circumstances,
00:44:01
but it's really important to get
00:44:05
detailed on exactly what you mean by
00:44:07
that because it can vary as much from
00:44:10
like the myth of people using a like cat
00:44:14
litter box in the bathroom level of
00:44:16
misinformation to something as specific
00:44:19
as like they feel like the teachers in
00:44:21
their ability to articulate certain uh
00:44:23
subjects is just not adequate or class
00:44:25
is so disruptive that you can't actually
00:44:27
concentrate and learn or you feel like a
00:44:30
eight hour a day, 5 day a week sort of
00:44:32
experience in school is not helpful for
00:44:34
the development of a child which is a
00:44:35
good argument right like in itself like
00:44:37
it's I don't I personally do not love
00:44:40
the pace and length of school for kids
00:44:43
um just in my experience I don't I don't
00:44:46
think it's the right pace and time frame
00:44:49
but a lot of times like people I talk to
00:44:52
do not have those specific details right
00:44:54
It's some more abstract thought process
00:44:58
of my kid's going to become a druggie or
00:45:01
they're going to get bullied, which
00:45:03
isn't necessarily a terrible thing, by
00:45:05
the way. We can talk about that. Like,
00:45:08
or like they're going to get pregnant or
00:45:10
they're going to start doing these
00:45:11
things that are very destructive.
00:45:12
They're going to ruin their life. And
00:45:13
they can usually hodge podge pick some
00:45:15
examples. But I can also hodge podge
00:45:17
pick examples out of homeschool
00:45:18
communities, too. It's like people are
00:45:20
people wherever they go. and the
00:45:22
differences and like what you're going
00:45:23
to have to deal with in a large
00:45:24
concentration of kids is is going to be
00:45:26
different. Correct. Um but you're not
00:45:29
going to escape problems or and kids are
00:45:33
going to find their way to do things
00:45:34
they want to do. Like I know so many
00:45:35
homeschoolers that are very young and
00:45:37
having sex behind their parents' backs
00:45:40
because they want to and they're going
00:45:41
to find it, right? Like it just you're
00:45:44
not going to escape it. Yeah. So if
00:45:45
that's what you think is going to
00:45:46
happen, I would say you need to wake up
00:45:48
a little bit. I think if you're more of
00:45:50
like concerned about the education
00:45:51
format, I think I can get behind that a
00:45:53
little bit. But also like one of the
00:45:55
things to that bullying thing that I've
00:45:57
noticed is like some emotional
00:45:59
immaturity that comes out of
00:46:01
homeschooling, particularly in my
00:46:02
experience as an individual as well.
00:46:04
Like I did not have the capacity to deal
00:46:07
with conflict
00:46:10
or people who were wrong or being mean
00:46:13
because I hadn't dealt with it. Mhm. And
00:46:16
then you're 19 and you're getting hit
00:46:17
with this for the first time and you're
00:46:20
kind of getting absolutely destroyed
00:46:23
emotionally because you have no thick
00:46:25
skin, right? And you have no coping
00:46:28
skill. You haven't developed a pattern
00:46:30
for this and it's just blowing your
00:46:32
mind. And then you can either become,
00:46:36
you know, a fawner where you have to try
00:46:38
to make everybody happy because if
00:46:40
someone's angry with you, you deserved
00:46:41
it potentially. That was your upbringing
00:46:42
growing up. or like you decide to go on
00:46:46
the attack and you just decide you need
00:46:48
to go like full like full into this
00:46:50
attack mode because you don't realize
00:46:54
potentially the lack of seriousness or
00:46:55
the nuance of this whatever is
00:46:57
happening. And so bullying absolutely
00:47:00
sucks. And I'm not talking about extreme
00:47:02
bullying. I'm just talking about like
00:47:03
dealing with rough people or conflict or
00:47:05
people who are trying to be mean is not
00:47:08
always the worst thing in the world for
00:47:10
kids to learn how to deal with as they
00:47:12
grow up. Yeah. I mean,
00:47:15
I was having a conversation with my wife
00:47:17
last night literally about the fact that
00:47:20
like I put this on YouTube like I
00:47:25
that's that part of putting this show
00:47:26
out is that it is open to criticism. It
00:47:29
is open to people being mean on the
00:47:31
internet. And as we know, as history has
00:47:34
shown us, the internet is not a nice
00:47:36
place. Um,
00:47:38
and I've received some nasty messages
00:47:40
and I've received some nasty things and
00:47:42
some push back and and sometimes it's
00:47:44
good. Sometimes it's like it's somebody
00:47:46
who you can actually like be like,
00:47:48
"Okay, we can have a conversation about
00:47:49
this and it can be productive, right?
00:47:51
And we can maybe come to a middle ground
00:47:52
somewhere." And other people just want
00:47:54
to be mean to be mean.
00:47:57
Mhm. Because of my upbringing,
00:48:01
I don't really remember being bullied. I
00:48:03
maybe have a little bit of a thicker
00:48:05
skin than somebody who was truly
00:48:06
isolated and only exclusively in their
00:48:08
home for most of their upbringing, but
00:48:11
um I'm having to learn that tough skin
00:48:15
reality today where it's just like, you
00:48:18
know, people are going to say mean stuff
00:48:20
and it's what you do with it and how you
00:48:21
hold on to it that's like important.
00:48:24
It's like, you know, does this hold any
00:48:27
weight? If not, like just you got to let
00:48:29
it go. Let it roll off your back. It's
00:48:30
not, you know, it's not targeted to you.
00:48:33
They're a really unhappy person, you
00:48:34
know, and that's that's what I keep
00:48:36
reminding myself is. I'm like, you know,
00:48:38
people who are just mean to be mean,
00:48:40
they're not a happy person. They're not
00:48:42
living their best life. And I'm out here
00:48:44
and I'm overall I think I'm a pretty
00:48:46
happy person. Um, and I'm living a
00:48:48
pretty good life. So, um, I just have to
00:48:53
remind myself of that sometimes of like,
00:48:55
but yeah, to your point, extreme
00:48:57
bullying, absolutely not. I think, you
00:48:59
know, parents need to step in for that.
00:49:00
But, you know, the real world slaps you
00:49:02
upside the head sometimes. Sometimes you
00:49:04
get hit with that harsh reality of I
00:49:06
mean, I brought up college professor
00:49:08
told me to just basically shut up like
00:49:10
learn to be cool. That stung. That was
00:49:13
not fun. Yeah.
00:49:15
Oh, yeah. It it is. And I And I
00:49:19
you got to learn how to deal with that,
00:49:20
not only in the moment, but afterwards.
00:49:22
Yeah. And there are I'm I I guarantee
00:49:25
there are homesooled families that are
00:49:26
isolated that just for whatever reason
00:49:28
personality disposition just are
00:49:30
unbothered individuals. I'm sure that
00:49:32
exists. Yeah. Um I run into that rarely.
00:49:35
I run into much more of a sensitive
00:49:37
child because of the isolation uh than
00:49:40
vice versa. So, I wanted to ask this too
00:49:44
because I've been thinking a lot about
00:49:46
the direction of the show and the
00:49:48
purpose of this show. And one of the
00:49:50
things that I want it to become is a
00:49:54
support system potentially, not only for
00:49:56
for those of us who were former
00:49:58
homeschoolers, you know, sometimes we
00:50:00
just want to talk about our
00:50:02
experience. You know, sometimes we want
00:50:03
to reminisce and be like we like we've
00:50:05
been doing, right? Reminis about about
00:50:07
stuff, the good, the bad, and the ugly,
00:50:08
right? But I also want it to be a place
00:50:10
for people who are currently
00:50:12
homeschooling to come and say, "Okay,
00:50:14
look, I can look at people who already
00:50:16
did it and how they ended up." Um, and
00:50:19
so my question for you is really based
00:50:22
on your experience now with kind of
00:50:25
being back in the homeschool community a
00:50:27
little bit and and being, is there a
00:50:30
best way do you think that we can
00:50:32
support this next generation of
00:50:34
homeschool kids? Yeah. And I think I
00:50:37
don't know the impression I gave off,
00:50:38
but my my guess is that if you were
00:50:40
listening to this point so far, you
00:50:42
would think I was pretty like uh close
00:50:44
to anti-homeschooling or don't think
00:50:45
it's a good idea. Um that is not my
00:50:49
stance. Um I am critical. I would say
00:50:53
like if you were to ask me about the
00:50:54
public education system, it'd be a
00:50:55
different conversation. I tend to be
00:50:56
pretty critical of a lot of things. Um,
00:51:00
but I would sit like I think you can
00:51:02
totally do it well homeschool. I would
00:51:06
say if I would remove one thing from the
00:51:09
vocabulary of all the families and the
00:51:12
culture of homeschooling, I remove the
00:51:14
negativity
00:51:16
of the public education and private
00:51:18
system out of the vocabulary. Uh because
00:51:20
not that you shouldn't have a
00:51:22
understanding like I just said earlier
00:51:23
like criticalness of what is out there
00:51:26
but
00:51:28
when you position yourself as better
00:51:31
than
00:51:33
or more caring parents than or a better
00:51:37
education than or safer than
00:51:40
I tend to think that creates a lot of
00:51:43
elitism in those who are successful
00:51:46
which is its own emotional immaturity.
00:51:49
or it creates a very big sense of
00:51:51
failure when that is not successful and
00:51:54
you can no longer homeschool and you
00:51:56
have to go back to public school. You
00:51:58
feel like you've given up and lost.
00:52:01
Like at the end of the day,
00:52:05
emotionally healthy parents having
00:52:07
emotionally healthy relationships with
00:52:09
their kids regardless of where they go
00:52:11
to school is going to be the biggest
00:52:13
impact on their success and future in
00:52:15
life.
00:52:17
are almost nothing. I would almost stake
00:52:20
my whole claim in that. Yeah. So, if you
00:52:23
think the school system is going to save
00:52:24
you or hurt your kid, if you think
00:52:26
homeschooling is going to save you or
00:52:28
hurt save your kid or hurt your kid, I
00:52:30
think you got to look in the mirror
00:52:31
first and that is what is most
00:52:33
important. And so, take away this
00:52:35
elitism of like, well, we just really
00:52:37
care about our kids and that's why or we
00:52:38
just really like they're terrible there.
00:52:40
I'm like, anybody can learn how to deal
00:52:43
with anything and anybody can thrive in
00:52:45
anything. like is your are you present
00:52:48
as a parent? Do you care? Do you like
00:52:50
your kids
00:52:52
and are you involved or are you going to
00:52:56
use either one as an opportunity to
00:52:58
either have an unhealthy relationship or
00:52:59
step away? Yeah, that to me is like
00:53:03
the message that I would be questioning.
00:53:06
And so I think like homeschooling today
00:53:08
perfectly fine. Like if you feel like
00:53:10
it's great for your family and what you
00:53:12
want to do, do it. There's so many good
00:53:14
things that come from that. If you want
00:53:15
to be involved in public school system,
00:53:17
be involved
00:53:19
and do it. Um, just don't think either
00:53:22
one's going to save or hurt you. Th This
00:53:24
is something I shout from the rooftops
00:53:26
all the time on this show. Like anybody
00:53:28
who's listened to any number of episodes
00:53:30
has probably heard me say like I I think
00:53:33
the kids learn a variety of different
00:53:35
ways. And I think if you want to be a
00:53:37
good parent, you got to find the way
00:53:39
that works for your kid. And then you
00:53:41
got to be the strongest advocate in
00:53:42
whatever arena that is. So it could be
00:53:44
homeschooling, public school, private
00:53:45
school, any whatever it is. Charlie's
00:53:49
backing me up. And Charlie's actually a
00:53:50
professional people. So it's not just
00:53:52
some random dude on the internet
00:53:53
shouting it from the rooftops. Like um
00:53:55
this is somebody who's actually like
00:53:57
working with families to help them do
00:53:59
that. Like I appreciate you for doing
00:54:01
that. And family therapy is much needed
00:54:04
I think um in in our world today. Like
00:54:07
so so thank you for what you do. just
00:54:09
first and foremost, thank you. I
00:54:10
appreciate it. There's so many other
00:54:13
ways and arenas we could take it and go,
00:54:16
but I think you just said it beautifully
00:54:20
and maybe maybe we do a part two at some
00:54:22
point, but u yeah, is there anything
00:54:25
else you want to leave? Anything that's
00:54:28
come up while we've been talking where
00:54:29
you're like, "Oh, hey, this memory has
00:54:32
struck me or this thought or whatever."
00:54:33
Is there anything else that we're
00:54:35
missing before we close it out? Oh, man.
00:54:38
I I think I would just emphasize what I
00:54:42
just said maybe with a different word,
00:54:43
help uh boil it down to even simpler
00:54:45
ideas. Like I just think humility is
00:54:47
super key in as a parent, especially as
00:54:52
you look outward to other institutions
00:54:53
or families. Um there's a lot of factors
00:54:57
as you into family therapy that make
00:54:58
things very complicated. And while there
00:55:01
are solutions, um humility is a very
00:55:03
important cloak to wear in that process.
00:55:07
And I think being humble parents makes
00:55:09
you better parents and allows you to not
00:55:13
go down that road of either of that kind
00:55:16
of emotional immaturity that we talked
00:55:17
about. So that'd be my boil it down to
00:55:19
one word. I think it's really important
00:55:21
to have that perspective. Very cool. I
00:55:23
love it. Okay. Where can people connect
00:55:26
with you? I think my Instagram is my
00:55:28
first name which is Charles
00:55:31
Irving which is Iving G. I'm gonna
00:55:34
confirm that to make sure that is the
00:55:36
case. Yes. And if you type in Charlie
00:55:38
Monroe, um that name may also come up,
00:55:40
too. But Instagram is the best place to
00:55:41
find me. Get a hold of me. Okay. Um he's
00:55:44
got some funny reels. You want to talk
00:55:45
more?
00:55:47
Yeah. They're from an old era that I'll
00:55:49
probably not be replicating. So, you can
00:55:51
cringe with me. Yeah. Uh but man, I
00:55:53
posted a lot during co that's when
00:55:54
that's when everybody became uh real and
00:55:57
Tik Tok makers. Yeah. Hey, we've all got
00:55:59
cringy stuff on the internet, you know.
00:56:01
I have a friend who keeps threatening. I
00:56:03
I have a whole movie from high school
00:56:04
that we made um with music video and
00:56:07
behind the scenes and all that stuff. Um
00:56:09
that I have a friend who keeps
00:56:10
threatening. We're going to drop it.
00:56:12
We're going to drop it on the internet
00:56:13
someday. Um so that's out there
00:56:16
somewhere. But uh Charlie, this has been
00:56:18
great. And yeah, if you got questions,
00:56:20
hit him up. I'm going to link it down in
00:56:22
the show notes as well. So if if you
00:56:23
can't find it, there will be a link down
00:56:25
below. Um or if you want to shoot me a
00:56:27
question, shoot me a question. exhausts
00:56:29
[email protected] or exhisclub on
00:56:32
Instagram, Tik Tok, um, pretty much all
00:56:34
the social platforms. But, uh, Charlie,
00:56:37
this has been amazing. I appreciate you.
00:56:39
Thank you again for coming on and
00:56:40
sharing your story and it's just fun.
00:56:43
It's just fun to connect with other
00:56:45
exhomeschoolies.
00:56:47
Same. Thank you. Yeah. All right. Till
00:56:49
next week, we'll see you guys. All
00:56:51
right. Peace.
00:56:54
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