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[Music] [Music] % [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you're doing thanks for
00:01:45
listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always it's been years since he's danced the Calypso and of course I'm
00:01:52
talking about the captain well that's cuz this Captain has a wooden leg with real foot it's good to be seen and good
00:01:58
to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling a [Music] friend today we are drinking light speed
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by Brew dog why because we are hoping and praying that this week's unsolved case gets some justice how fast light
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Colonel that's enough of the biz yes all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true
00:03:36
[Music] [Music] crime four young sisters who all died in a fire at their family [Applause]
00:03:52
home still unclear how the fire started investigators are looking at the first floor electrical
00:03:58
system the girl's mother injured along with two police officers who tried to save the
00:04:05
sister's [Music] lives such an early age such a heavy loss I missed [Music] them she was a single mom working very
00:04:20
hard and like I said her babies were her angels I can't imagine what she's going
00:04:28
through [Music] sadly on November 23rd 2016 the Carroll County Comet ran the following Report with the headline Four
00:04:45
Sisters perish and floor fire the article read in part an early morning fire Monday November 21st 2016 in Flor
00:04:56
claimed the lives of Four Sisters ages 11 9 7 and 5 and sent their mother and two police officers to the hospital the
00:05:06
victim's names have not been released 911 was called at 3:35 a.m. to a 2un apartment building located at 103 East
00:05:15
Columbia Street when emergency Personnel arrived Flames were visible according to
00:05:21
flor Town Marshall Paul Redmond the victim's families resided on the main level which also includes an upstairs
00:05:28
bedroom where the girls slept officers and volunteer firefighters removed the girls who were not breathing from the
00:05:35
residence Redmond said they worked hard to resuscitate them but could not the victim's mother was airlifted to an
00:05:43
Indianapolis hospital for treatment a County Deputy was flown to a Fort Wayne hospital for treatment of smoke
00:05:49
inhalation and burns to his hands and face a flora police officer was transported to a Lafayette hospital for
00:05:56
treatment of smoke inhalation the couple occup cying the upstairs apartment escaped unharmed fire units from Deli
00:06:04
Camden Burlington and Cutler also responded according to Redmond the fire was knocked down quickly also helping at
00:06:12
the scene were the Carroll County Sheriff's Department Indiana State Police and other police units the
00:06:18
Indiana Department of Homeland Security and State Fire Marshal along with local authorities are conducting an
00:06:24
investigation as to the cause of the fire Redmond said the victims were students at Carol Elementary School
00:06:32
Carol's counselors as well as others from nearby School corporations and local Ministry were available at the
00:06:38
school to help students and staff cope with the tragedy the comment will run dozens of
00:06:45
articles about the fire and fatalities for the weeks and months to come we have covered several house fires and arson
00:06:52
stories on True Crime garage and unfortunately there were fatalities in those fires as well but stop stop and
00:06:59
really think about it for a while there are a few things more terrifying than a house fire imagine waking in the night
00:07:08
the house still dark the smell of smoke is strong you jump out of your bed with one thought my children you rush from
00:07:16
the room only to be confronted with a wall of black smoke so thick your eyes water your throat burns and your lungs
00:07:24
sees up the heat searing your skin to the point where you are sure that you on fire screaming is impossible as you are
00:07:33
overtaken by coughing and you stagger out the front door choking and gasping for air and your children are still
00:07:44
inside this is what happened in the middle of the night on November 21st 2016 in Flor
00:07:51
Indiana later we learn that this deadly house fire was no accident this is true crime garage and this is the floor Fire
00:08:03
[Music] case in November of 2016 little girls Keon Kiara Kiana and carel lived with
00:08:23
their mother gayen Rose in a rented apartment inside a duplex in the Tiny Town of Florida FL Indiana the house was
00:08:31
situated on a corner right next to downtown Flora this is a town of just 1 square mile occupied by 2,000 residents
00:08:40
the small town of Flora is located in Carroll County Indiana the house galin and her girls lived in located at 103
00:08:48
East Columbia Street was divided into two separate Apartments the family of five our family that we're discussing
00:08:56
lived in one half and other tenants a mom and her two kids occupied the other half of this duplex gayen and her kids
00:09:05
slept on two different floors of the home the girls slept in bedrooms upstairs and Galen occupied a room on
00:09:13
the main level the four sisters were normal little girls who loved to play outside and were big time into
00:09:20
cheerleading and that is an understatement I cannot emphasize that enough big time into cheerleading they
00:09:26
were on various competitive cheering teams and they ranged in age from 5 to 11 so preschool age up to the sixth
00:09:36
grade neighbors would later tell the media that the kids were always playing outside they were very nice and polite
00:09:43
children they said the mom was friendly and would say hello the girls love to play with other neighborhood kids dogs
00:09:51
and were always smiling and dancing one Flor resident said they were so joyous they were very happy girls I've never
00:09:59
seen them not smiling always on the front porch waving at everybody that went by they didn't know a stranger well
00:10:07
let's get to the details of this tragic event okay Captain so on the weekend of November 18th through the 20th
00:10:16
2016 the girls had a cheer competition on that Saturday afternoon on Sunday Keana who was big into basketball she
00:10:25
had a game so the five members of this family went to the grocery store and went home to eat dinner after this
00:10:32
basketball game and after dinner it would be bedtime for the girls on Sunday night this is the 20th the girls all
00:10:40
went to bed around 1 p.m. upstairs in their room Galen slept alone downstairs so she says that she went to bed around
00:10:50
the same time as well but around 3:30 a.m. gayen wakes up here's what happened per Fox 59 news it says everyone was
00:11:01
asleep the girls were upstairs and Galen was in her bedroom on the main floor until she said intense smoke woke her up
00:11:10
the whole entire house was full of smoke I couldn't really see gayen said I pretty much tried to save my babies by
00:11:18
running up the steps I got halfway I couldn't breathe and I just ran out of the house to try to help now Galen stood
00:11:27
in the front yard in her night gown screaming but other screams could be heard as well coming from inside the
00:11:34
house a neighbor one of many awakened by the sounds of the distraught mother called 911 the first to respond was
00:11:43
Carroll County Sheriff's deputy Drew Yoder he rushed into the house when Galen screamed at him that her children
00:11:51
were still inside he was quickly forced to retreat from the burning structure second to respond was Flora police
00:12:00
officer Josh disinger the two officers attempted to enter the home several more times but they had to pull back each
00:12:09
time on another attempt Dinger had to pull Yoder out of the home because the smoke was so dense the Flames so hot
00:12:20
later Yoder said to the Journal and Courier the third time is when things went bad all I remember is waking up in
00:12:28
the ambulance with disinger standing over me telling me that everything was going to be okay firefighters were able
00:12:37
to be on the scene very quickly by the time they arrive we have smoke and Flames that are billowing from the house
00:12:45
gayen Rose stood on the front lawn screaming hysterically the two law enforcement officers were down by this
00:12:53
point injured by their repeated attempts into the home right so shortly after 3:30 a.m. we have an EMT who lived next
00:13:02
door to the family her name is Angela Francis she was awaken by the screaming she ran out to help and was immediately
00:13:11
you know thrown into this situation where she's helping and assisting anyone that she can including the ambulances
00:13:18
that are now arriving on the scene we also have neighbor chassity Fox her and her husband also went outside of their
00:13:26
home that night and watched horrified as as sadly the First Responders failed to
00:13:31
save the children per Fox 59 gayen Rose recalled the ambulance man told me that my babies was no longer
00:13:41
here and after that moment I don't remember anything Galen was sedated and airlifted
00:13:48
from the scene to a hospital in Indianapolis her condition was listed as critical but stable she was in the
00:13:56
hospital for nearly a week the floor of firefighters were eventually able to put out this fire one
00:14:04
by one EMTs brought out four little bodies on stretchers Deputy Yoder suffered Burns to his hands and face and
00:14:14
smoke inhalation he was airlifted to a burn unit in Fort Wayne where he stayed for several days he wrote a handwritten
00:14:24
note to officer disinger that read quote you saved my life Josh He later says that he has no recollection of writing
00:14:34
this note disinger was treated at the Lafayette hospital he too had smoke inhalation but he was released Monday
00:14:42
night the two men had done everything in their power to try to save all four girls Unfortunately they just failed the
00:14:50
the smoke was too bad the fire was too big and just think I have little fires at my house you know outside you know
00:14:58
little Bond on Fires you're moving around those firewoods and boom you get hit with some smoke and you start
00:15:05
coughing and choking immediately and that's of a little fire and you're surrounded by fresh air can you imagine
00:15:12
how you'd react or how the body would react when you're hit with smoke and when you're gasping for air all your
00:15:20
body is getting is more smoke the residents of the other half of the home remember we have a woman with her two
00:15:27
children that lived there she was able to escape that night without any injury at all luckily her children were not
00:15:35
home with her that night Carroll County coroner JD cre announced that all four girls had died of asphixiation due to
00:15:46
smoke inhalation manner of death was listed as accidental this was obviously devastating to the family but also all
00:15:55
the firefighters that were involved in trying to save these girls lives and it devastated the whole community so they
00:16:03
held the funeral at the local high school this is one of those horrible situations that we hear about Captain
00:16:10
where the First Responders are now traumatized for months and even years to come the funeral itself must be
00:16:19
unbearable we're talking about four children here the Carol Elementary School provided grief counselors for the
00:16:27
students who all knew the girls students created banners and cards and posted them all along the walls of the school
00:16:36
and a candle light vigil was held on Tuesday evening of that week afterward people delivered meals to Galen Rose and
00:16:46
her family and fundraisers and sales from a cookbook raised money for her to help try in some way to rebuild her life
00:16:56
Deputy Yoder who we have already talked about who was on the scene and tried several times to get back in the house
00:17:03
he was obviously devastated by the incident as was everyone he when he learned that the girls had not been
00:17:10
saved he was crushed he says you know I know these girls I drove through Flora all the time for work and I would see
00:17:21
them he says quote those girls were always outside on a nice day dancing around and the greatest thing is is they
00:17:29
would all stop smile and wave as you pass by he had often spoken with gayen who was a cashier at a gas station in town
00:17:41
so he knew her as well this is one of those situations it's a small town not a lot of people and he shows up and he's
00:17:49
responding trying to save people that he knows people that he has seen in his everyday life well First Responders get
00:17:57
to know gas station attendance a lot because they stop in and get coffee at all hours
00:18:03
of the night and in a small town if you're a cashier anywhere you really get to know a lot of people in the community
00:18:11
these four girls were absolutely beautiful girls absolutely beautiful and Captain you know 20 years ago I worked
00:18:19
at a gas station and I've always recommended here if you work at a gas station offer free coffee to all the
00:18:27
officers to First responders get those people in your stores and take care of them on that Monday Captain this was
00:18:35
like 3:30 in the morning on that Monday so now we have all this tragedy that happens in the middle of the night and
00:18:43
we have fire investigators who are going to have to begin the process of sifting
00:18:48
through the debris rubble and Ash to try to determine the point of origin because
00:18:53
we have four fatalities here we have an investigation that has to happen exactly
00:18:58
so we have assistant chief of the Burlington Fire Department Derek Jackson that said it's just a fire that happened
00:19:05
at night people were sleeping and didn't wake up in time right but it was not really that simple as we know the
00:19:12
Indiana State Police they were the official lead investigative Agency on the case the actual on the scene fire
00:19:20
investigation would require experts the fire would be investigated by the Indiana State Fire Marshall's office
00:19:27
which is part of the Indiana Department of Homeland Security and this would be well a rather extensive and ongoing
00:19:37
investigation in the first few days fire investigator Dennis Randall would only say that the fire was categorized as
00:19:45
undetermined pending review of the structure by an electrical engineer most house fires and even
00:19:53
business fires are electrical at the point of origin right and so I'm assuming that that's what they were
00:19:59
thinking they could be looking at here in this particular fire and it's also older building that's correct throughout
00:20:07
the years the electric codes change and part of the house possibly wasn't up to code and so after a few days of
00:20:16
Investigation they were not really sure what caused the fire they were still listing the official ruling is
00:20:23
undetermined even at that time they were able to determine that the it started in
00:20:28
the kitchen possibly behind the refrigerator and there are other reports out there that say that the fire started
00:20:35
at the back of the house on the ground floor I want to be clear about something here it's not been we're going to go
00:20:43
through this along our timeline here and even in these early stages of their investigation the first couple days in
00:20:51
we're getting conflicting reports about the origin of the fire where it started they've not officially released
00:21:00
to this day where that fire started so when you hear us reading off different points of where the fire could have
00:21:09
started right just know that nothing is absolutely official on those statements these are from reports that have come
00:21:16
out since the investigation has been going on well and a lot of people think that it's possibly it was started behind
00:21:22
the oven as well you you hear that on several reports the sad fact is is they're renting this house this is a
00:21:31
mother a single mother of four trying to put her kids in the best situation that
00:21:36
she can they're renting a house without smoke detectors yeah the the official statements that I have or at least the
00:21:45
reported statements that were coming out early on was that no foul play was suspected that a canine Officer on the
00:21:53
scene had found no presence of accelerance and further investigation had found that a smoke detector at the
00:22:00
top of the stairs on the second floor had no batteries in it and it was melted from the heat of the fire and there is a
00:22:08
a portion of this statement here captain that says there were no working smoke detectors in the part of the house where
00:22:14
the family lived right by early December the Federal Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms had officially joined the
00:22:23
fire investigation it's not clear whether their assistance was requested or if they decided to jump in to this
00:22:33
investigation the case went quiet shortly after that as the investigators did their thing and that is the end of
00:22:42
any normaly in this tragic case from here on out it goes kind of Haywire in my opinion a little wonky donkey two
00:22:51
months after the fire on January 28th there was big news so so remember we've been told
00:22:59
already by this point in our timeline that there was no reason to suspect Foul Play right and that there were no
00:23:05
detected accelerance by the canine officers that the girls deaths were still listed as accidental at this point
00:23:13
and so on but now as of that January 28th 2017 a press release from the State Fire
00:23:21
Marshall's office stated that the fire was the result of arson again we have fire investigator Dennis r R he said in
00:23:29
a statement released on that Saturday quote the November 21st 2016 Flora Indiana fire has been ruled incendiary
00:23:38
at this time there are no suspects investigators determined the fire to be incendiary after accelerants were found
00:23:45
in several locations of the structure end quote so as you can imagine Captain this is huge news accelerants are found
00:23:52
in several locations based off of this statement yeah and this is several locations inside the house occupied by
00:24:00
Galen and the girls so the fires no accident or the result of faulty wiring or even
00:24:07
electrical short this we're now being told is a fire that was deliberately set four young sisters who all died on a
00:24:19
fire at their family [Applause] home still unclear how the fire started investigators are looking at the first
00:24:26
floor electrical system the girl's mother injured along with two police officers who tried to save the
00:24:34
sister's [Music] lives such an early age such a heavy loss I missed [Music] them she was a single mom working very
00:24:49
hard and like I said her babies were her angels I can't imagine what she's going
00:24:56
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offered by T-Mobile in Verizon May [Music] 2023 all right we're back and we just
00:27:15
want to take a quick minute to wish all of you guys and your family a happy turkey day a happy and safe Thanksgiving
00:27:25
to everybody out there tall Kansas in the air right Cheers Cheers now for anyone who's paying attention to our
00:27:33
cases that we cover here in the garage and the dates and locations that we have discussed so far you may realize
00:27:40
something pretty significant Flora that little town AB buts another small town in Indiana that was rocked by a crime in
00:27:48
which two girls were murdered Abby Williams and Libby German were murdered on the moanin High Bridge Trail in Deli
00:27:56
Indiana on February 13th 2017 this was literally just 3 months after the floor of fire so now we have
00:28:05
six young girls who have all died under suspicious circumstances in just a period of 3 months and about a distance
00:28:14
of 8 miles away all in Carroll County Indiana Again these budding counties they share Community they share
00:28:26
community events but they also share family members so you have one County already grieving and now you have
00:28:33
another one grieving as well it's it's very tragic time for that region and then you have the effect that this was
00:28:41
going to take some of the resources away from the floor of fire investigation that being the deli investigation so for
00:28:48
one thing as we know newer cases always get the most attention from law enforcement but some people have
00:28:55
wondered whether this was a race related issue and if the four daughters that were killed in the Floor of fire were
00:29:04
white some have said that the investigators would have continued their investigation with more Vigor yeah I
00:29:12
don't know how much Vigor it had but the investigation definitely continued so the Four Sisters case got no televised
00:29:19
press conferences no national news exposure no public outcries that the culprit would be brought to Justice in
00:29:29
fact Robert IES the Carroll County prosecutor at the time somebody who we've quoted here before when we've
00:29:35
talked about the deli case right says he wasn't even notified that arson was suspected 6 months after the fire he
00:29:42
told Fox 59 Labs test have been done lab results have come back but I haven't received anything like a final police
00:29:51
report not one suspect had been brought to his attention he said and he goes on to say quote the floor of fire has had
00:29:59
as much investigation put on it as many people involved as much serious consideration as probably any other case
00:30:07
I've ever been involved in except for the deli murder well obviously it's going to be investigated by law
00:30:14
enforcement but this investigation is going to be trumped because it's going to be investigated by the firefighters
00:30:22
as well but I think one of the reasons why it didn't get as much coverage initially is because the reports was
00:30:31
this is an accident okay if it's an accident it's a tragic event we're going to talk about it and and now we're going
00:30:37
to have these funerals the community is going to come together and now let's start working to move past this if it
00:30:44
came out the night of the fires or the next day that no we believe this is 100% arson then you're looking at a
00:30:54
murder investigation right away and I think that's one of the reasons it didn't get the coverage that it deserved
00:31:01
yes this is a horrible horrible situation nobody's denying that neither nobody should even be comparing which
00:31:09
situations more tragic they're equally tragic and I think you're spot on here Captain a part of the reason why we have
00:31:18
less information or at least less news coverage and National outcry for justice here is the fact that you just said it
00:31:27
was originally ruled or thought to be either undetermined or accidental and so that takes a little
00:31:34
bit away from that sentiment from everybody to begin with but the other thing too I don't know that it's really
00:31:43
truly fair to kind of compare the investigations or the efforts put forward on these two cases it doesn't
00:31:51
feel to me like we're comparing Apples to Apples it's a little more apples to oranges here because very few we've been
00:31:58
doing this a very long time I have seen very few cases that have received as much attention as the deli murder cases
00:32:07
yeah well look it it'd be like every child that is murdered saying it's not fair that John B Ramsay's case got
00:32:15
covered more than theirs that's a good example and then on top of that in the True Crime podcast Community a lot of
00:32:21
the craters we know are more likely to cover a unsolved murder case than unsolved arson case they're just not
00:32:30
covered as much in the True Crime world yes and I feel like with the deli case really the there's only a handful of
00:32:38
cases that I think have received as much or more publicity than the deli case and
00:32:43
I mean we're talking John Benet the OJ Simpson case there's very few out there now what I do believe here in this case
00:32:53
for the floor Fire case is I would have liked to seen more eyes and earballs on this from the get-go because I do think
00:33:03
that there's somebody out there that might know something but the investigation itself has been a little
00:33:09
weird and that's why I said earlier that that's going to be the last of the normaly in this case and in this
00:33:16
investigation yeah because we what we have here is first off arson is very difficult to determine and investigate
00:33:26
right now the other problematic thing for the investigation itself is Most states and
00:33:34
cities do not have a high clearance rate when it comes to arson to clearing arson
00:33:40
cases meaning most of the time they don't make an arrest or get a conviction in the
00:33:47
arson case like you said it's a tough investigation because smoke destroys evidence fire destroys evidence similar
00:33:57
to a crime happening and the victim being placed into water that water is going to destroy so much evidence and
00:34:05
before we move on too far into the investigation Captain I want to make sure that I point something out too that
00:34:10
really kind of ticked me off as I was going through my research and looking into this horrible Fire case
00:34:19
here at some point when there was no news of a good suspect or finger pointing to people people outside of the
00:34:27
home at some point some members of the public started pointing their finger at Galen Rose the mother of the three girls
00:34:37
and I found that incredibly I think disgusting is the best word I understand that there's
00:34:44
suspicion and that when there has been no answers and you cannot find the culprit of something so horrific as this
00:34:53
that you want to find somebody to blame that you want to point the the finger and say I think that's why I think
00:34:59
that's the person that did it and that's why we don't have the answers I get that
00:35:04
end of it but everything that I can see she does not make a good suspect other than the fact that we know she was in
00:35:11
the home that night I see a woman here that has been destroyed absolutely destroyed you think
00:35:17
that Community was destroyed by this event her life has been it's been hell I'm sure every day for her has been hell
00:35:26
and now we're coming up on 5 years since that horrible night well my issue is that she's a she's a victim in this
00:35:33
tragic event law enforcement know that firefighters and their investigators know that to me you have a duty to
00:35:43
investigate this hard and fast and if you can rule her out initially again you you didn't say it was arson right away
00:35:52
so it gets less coverage with less coverage less people talking about it less likely you're going to have
00:35:58
somebody talking and and have somebody confessing to a friend or something of that nature but also when you know that
00:36:05
she was home rule her in or out very quickly and that's law enforce you know 3 days into their investigation if they
00:36:14
know that she is not a suspect you come out and you stand hard that she is not a
00:36:19
suspect and if you do that then you stop the rumor meals and you stop having people online spec ulate and throw blame
00:36:29
on this lady that is already suffering so I said that the investigation itself was a little weird and I think everybody
00:36:36
will agree with me because what we have here is remember the press release that we just went through where they are now
00:36:42
changing the undetermined status to arson and so essentially if it is arson these four girls were murdered now the
00:36:51
problem with that statement with that press release was we said Indiana State police is the lead on this case they
00:36:59
were unaware that that press release was going to be issued this was not agreed upon by all
00:37:07
of the investigating agencies that hey we're ready to announce the public that we've made a determination of arson here
00:37:13
in this case and then in June of 2017 we have arson investigator Dennis Randall who abruptly resigned from his
00:37:23
position he was the one that released that press release saying saying that the fire was deemed arson after
00:37:28
accelerants were found in several locations in the house now he is on record saying time and time again that
00:37:36
this disagreement between the agencies had nothing to do with him resigning you know some people work at a job for a
00:37:42
very long time or have a career we all retire at some point but one thing that we should note here is some of this
00:37:50
disagreement came about because there was a senior fire investigator from Michigan working for an insurance
00:37:56
company on the Fire case he did not agree with Randall's assessment of the accelerance or how the investigation was
00:38:03
being conducted so in February of that year he wrote a critical email to the Indiana Department of Homeland Security
00:38:12
director and the Indiana State Fire Marshall stating the following the January 28th 2017 press release by the
00:38:22
State Fire Marshal about the conclusions of their investigation are not not correct and completely based on
00:38:29
speculation and not evidence also the press released statement about accelerance being discovered in several
00:38:36
locations is absolutely not based on any evidence discovered at the scene during
00:38:42
the investigation and the investigator Dennis Randall was not performing a proper origin and cause investigation
00:38:50
based on the current procedures of the NFPA 921 2016 Edition this report filed and press release
00:38:59
given by Dennis Randall is truly unfortunate and potentially a grave Injustice for the four little girls that
00:39:06
perished in the fire well Colonel what's your opinions on this I think what we have here Captain is a situation where
00:39:13
we might have too many cooks in the kitchen we have about seven agencies involved in this investigation and it
00:39:21
seems to me like communication wasn't great between these different agencies and I think at points in the
00:39:30
investigation some of their findings seem to be contradicting themselves along the way or other agencies findings
00:39:39
right so I think everything was set up with good intentions of working this thing together in the beginning but
00:39:46
again you have about seven agencies that are involved in this investigation I kind of feel like it was
00:39:53
going to go wrong at some point given the number of of people involved we have seen in many arson investigation where
00:40:00
one expert states that this is 100% definitive that it's arson and then years later they come back and say no
00:40:09
this was clearly accidental this was faulty wiring it becomes very convoluted and and very hard to determine because
00:40:18
we're not experts ourselves in this field no and we've seen that expert opinion change throughout the years
00:40:27
this is a science that they're still working on that they're still working to perfect like everything else and so
00:40:34
where we have cases that we've looked at that are 20 30 years old we look at them
00:40:39
now in hindsight and go I don't know if they got it right based off of the way that we see the science today right and
00:40:46
we could break down each point of this investigation but it would take us hours upon hours there's a lot of minutia but
00:40:54
maybe Colonel you can just break down the major points of this well sadly captain in its simplest form what we are
00:41:02
being told by the experts the ones leading this investigation members of that seven agency team is at first it
00:41:11
wasn't Foul Play undetermined next it was Foul Play accelerants were found in multiple locations inside the home then
00:41:19
a hold up it might not be Foul Play We are still investigating to going back to eventually it was in fact Foul Play It
00:41:28
Was arson but accelerant were only found in one spot in one location and we're not being told exactly what that
00:41:38
location was yeah and when you have the community crying out for hey if this is arson where are the suspects tell us who
00:41:46
these guys are is there somebody that we should be afraid of in our community but
00:41:52
this investigation can't get on the same same track on if it was an accident or arson to begin with well in 2017 in in
00:42:03
December they did a peer review which I always like when these agencies do a peer review so the Indiana State Police
00:42:11
requested that the Indianapolis Fire Department send in experts to investigate the evidence that was
00:42:18
collected at the floor of fire and we have on record Sergeant Kim Riley anyone familiar with the deli case will know
00:42:26
Kim Riley he says quote it's a good practice to have fresh eyes review and investigation and since this case is
00:42:33
believed to be arson the Indianapolis Fire Department was asked to conduct the peer review by the end of January of
00:42:42
2018 the report from the Indianapolis investigators was in they confirmed that the fire was intentionally set however
00:42:51
accelerants were found in only one location in the home not several in the wake of this report the Indiana State
00:42:58
Police announced that the criminal investigation would continue so things started to look promising when we have
00:43:05
Doug Carter again people familiar with the deli case know Doug Carter he's the Indiana State Police spokesman he spoke
00:43:13
with local news stations at this time and he said over time people were starting to talk to us about that place
00:43:21
about that home about that area and around the home what might have been some of the activities in and around
00:43:29
that residence in the days weeks and months leading up to the fire he said police were not yet in a place where
00:43:36
they could make an arrest but quote I believe that we will end quote since that finding by seasoned arson
00:43:44
investigators over 3 years have passed with no arrest no publicly named suspects and really no new
00:43:53
information so here we sit 5 years after the fire and all we figured out by this
00:44:00
point is that it was intentionally set it is an arson fire there was four fatalities and accelerants were found in
00:44:09
one location regarding this fire well we're not getting a lot of information from investigators so maybe we can get
00:44:16
some information from the lawsuits in this case yes captain in May of 2018 Galen Rose's attorney filed a
00:44:26
federal lawsuit claiming that her landlords this is birch tree Holdings were negligent because there were no
00:44:33
working smoke detectors in the part of the house occupied by her and her children they also made a product
00:44:40
liability claim against Sears in Whirlpool the documents filed claimed that an oven and range manufactured by
00:44:49
whirlpool and sold by Sears was the cause of the fire because it was defective fire invest instigators had
00:44:56
removed the range for testing this part of the lawsuit however was dropped in 2020 this after extensive testing
00:45:06
revealed that the stove was not defective gayen also alleges in her complaint that the house also had a back
00:45:14
door that had no functioning lock and some outlets in the kitchen that did not work repairs to the outlets took place
00:45:23
just a couple of weeks before the fire obviously arson mitigates the fault on the part of the landlord but the reality
00:45:33
is the non-working smoke detectors present a huge huge problem for the landlords yeah I feel like they're still
00:45:42
that's still neglect and again you have a situation you have a single mother raising four children she's in a
00:45:50
situation where again trying to provide the best home environment for her kids this might might just be what she can
00:45:57
afford and then sometimes you don't feel like you have a leg to stand on to go well the house doesn't have this and the
00:46:04
house doesn't have that and you need to make these changes because you're afraid
00:46:10
well if they evict you for whatever reason that you might not be able to find a better situation yeah and we have
00:46:17
the mother and family who have stated over and over again that they kind of feel like this case isn't being worked
00:46:25
as hard as it possibly could be that maybe it's been shoved under the rug since so much time has gone by we do
00:46:34
have the Indiana State Police that have pushed back on that idea a little bit they have outwardly said you know we
00:46:42
don't have any suspects in this case or we've not named a suspect in this case they've said we have Persons of Interest
00:46:50
we have people that we would like to talk to people that we'd like to track down and speak with that we've not been
00:46:56
able to do yet so uh a little push back coming from Indiana State Police and in fact we have some words from Doug Carter
00:47:06
the spokesman that addresses some of that he said too that he was frustrated by the stagnated investigation but he
00:47:15
also said that the family has failed to provide critical information to move forward the investigation saying quote
00:47:23
I'm hurt that they think we haven't done anything Indiana State Police investigators have taken trips to
00:47:29
Illinois Kentucky Ohio and California in the hunt for Clues Carter hinted that the investigation had stalled because of
00:47:38
a lack of cooperation he said that while Galen spoke with investigators after the
00:47:43
fire she has avoided conversations with investigators about who had access to her home Carter said quote it's very
00:47:51
important that we understand who's been at the house who had been at the house what those Dynamics were and people who
00:48:00
did visit the home and right now we don't know what those answers are we have to get access to the entire family
00:48:09
period end quote well again all First Responders to this whether it's an accident or it was on purpose the end
00:48:17
result is four dead children that shouldn't be dead and those First Responders are going to have to live
00:48:24
with that for the rest of their lives and to think that doesn't affect them or that these the law enforcement doesn't
00:48:31
want to solve this case is just I I can't believe that that is the case no I'm with you Captain I don't think that
00:48:39
that is the situation here I think that this arson investigation is a difficult one I'm not going to sit here though and
00:48:46
pretend that I don't think that they have made some stumbles the investigators themselves along the way
00:48:52
and there's been a little bit of controversy in regard ards to the original fire investigator and the
00:48:59
investigation as it were that Dennis Randall that we've talked about his wife uh was stealing money at one point we're
00:49:09
talking thousands and thousands of dollars from attorneys right and she was eventually sent to do some jail time
00:49:15
some prison time for that theft so there was already kind of a buding of heads between the Indiana State Police Carol
00:49:25
County and the fire department because while some of this investigation's going on
00:49:31
they're also deposing Dennis Randall to talk to him about his wife's Mis dealings and to see if that he is in
00:49:39
anyhow involved or knowledgeable about what she was up to now in the end to be perfectly clear they ruled that he had
00:49:50
no knowledge of his wife stealing money so while she was out doing these wrong Deeds he doesn't seem to have any
00:49:57
awareness of it right at least off of the based off of their findings but it's not a good look from The Outsider
00:50:05
looking in that's going look it's been 5 years what happened here well you can't
00:50:09
deny that he was distracted correct because of this investigation and his you know let's just say it how it is his
00:50:17
dirt bag wife and I don't want to call the deli double homicide case of distraction but it certainly doesn't
00:50:24
help keep your focus on this horrible situation which has been deemed a crime it's been deemed an arson right now as
00:50:33
far as suspects go I think we can touch on that a little bit here because that's
00:50:36
one thing that's missing from a lot of the news reports I think it's fine right it's been 5 years Indiana State Police
00:50:44
I've had your guys's back for a long time MH when we've talked about Deli and many other cases but sadly in Indiana
00:50:53
state is just like any other state there there are many cases that are unsolved but I cannot I'm not going to shy away
00:51:00
from my frustration that I'm starting to have with Indiana State Police and their
00:51:05
poor record so far of clearing these very important cases well let's just say how it is we have six victims and then
00:51:13
thousands of victims that are connected they become victims because they're connected to the murdered victims yes
00:51:21
and those murdered children there's six murdered children that you have no goddamn answers for come on they're
00:51:29
they're batting a zero right now and I feel like I'm still going to have their backs for a while I'm going to give you
00:51:36
another opportunity here Indiana State Police but the sad truth of it is in regard to these two cases it's not been
00:51:44
a good look and if you were on my baseball team we probably would have cut you a long time ago well if they don't
00:51:49
get their [ __ ] together I'm cutting their funding well I'll tell you that I'm not going to send any more beer fund
00:51:55
money their way since very few people were talking about suspects let's try to talk
00:51:59
about some suspects here and again this is going to be speculation on our part as we are not on the inside of this
00:52:06
investigation and they've not allowed really anybody on the inside of this investigation so a man named Mike Veron
00:52:14
is one of the people who has been on the inside of this investigation and been inside the house since the fire he runs
00:52:23
his own fire investigation company he was hired by the mother of the four girls and her attorney he has not worked
00:52:31
with them for months by this point but he has said on the record that he still thinks about the house and the case
00:52:39
often he said that he spent more than 15 years as a certified fire investigator with the ATF before starting his own
00:52:47
company so this dude's legit right he knows what he's doing he's been to more than 1,000 fire scenes and investigated
00:52:55
this one just weeks after it happened there are still things that he does not want to share even while we're at the
00:53:03
fiveyear marker here here's an exchange from an interview with him and a news team the reporter here is Stephanie
00:53:13
Zeppelin basically Captain he's saying no relation to lead he is saying that where he thought the fire started is
00:53:22
where it started okay so his initial suspicions whatever his initial suspicions were right when he got there
00:53:28
and conducted his investigation his suspicions were confirmed Zeppelin goes on to push him and say and that is where
00:53:36
and virgin says I can't really say right now because if we get to a point in the
00:53:43
investigation that they make an arrest the only people that should know where the fire started is the person who said
00:53:50
it and the investigators right he says that he believes that the fire was an arson
00:53:58
but that the goal was not to kill the children he is also not sure whether everything possible is being done to
00:54:06
solve the case if it's not to kill the children then what it was it for why was the fire started he do he's he's being
00:54:14
vague on purpose because he thinks that the answers to these questions would lead you to the person or or may confirm
00:54:24
once you have the correct suspect across from you at the interview table right well because the deli case
00:54:33
has been covered considerably more than this case there are people out there that have tried to connect the deli
00:54:42
murders to the floor of fire I think it's fair to do so we're talking about time and
00:54:48
proximity to the two cases are relatively close mhm and the victimology is very similar we're talking about
00:54:56
young girlss here in all the situations but to me Captain I look at this and I go in the deli case those girls were
00:55:05
absolutely targeted now how premeditated that was is Up For Debate right but here
00:55:11
at the floor Fire case you could almost say that the house was targeted and I say that because I did
00:55:21
quite a bit of research on serial Arsen and a lot of times they will start setting fires to structures that are not
00:55:31
occupied right and then they will graduate for a lack of better word to structures that may have occupants
00:55:40
inside of them some of them get so bad and so deranged at some point that they are purposely seeking out a structure
00:55:48
with occupants to set fire to one of the things I start questioning too is like like you said maybe the house is the the
00:55:55
Target and not the individuals in it because we have it's a it's a duplex mhm a lot of these older houses they were at
00:56:04
one point a single family home and then converted into like a duplex or to Shared living so again it could just be
00:56:13
as simply as well there's no lock on the back door so this you know droopy dooky
00:56:21
dung bucket found an entrance Point into the uh residency if the fire was set inside and that's the interesting thing
00:56:29
there to me because if you have a ruling of arson right typically in these situations and again it doesn't have to
00:56:36
be a Serial arsonist but that's the statistics that are available for us to review so that's the route that I went
00:56:43
here and what you have with a Serial arsonist typically they are only setting fires to
00:56:50
structures from the inside when they are doing that to structures that they know
00:56:55
to be unoccupied right they're not going into a home or into a business and setting the fire from inside now the
00:57:05
ones that quote graduate to setting fires to structures that are occupied typically they're setting those fires to
00:57:12
those structures on the outside and often if it's a home it would be to the porch area either the
00:57:18
front porch or back porch maybe a garage so something that's attached to the home
00:57:24
but not necessarily inside of the home well again like you said you have to look at the victim's surroundings the
00:57:33
the the people that they're involved with in their lives but it's again a shared residency so not just one side's
00:57:42
relatives and their connections but the other side's relatives and connections as well and one thing that is certainly
00:57:48
a possibility here that could leave the door open for not only the house was itself was
00:57:56
targeted but the occupants were somewhat targeted whether they were known by name
00:58:00
or or what have you is look there is a potential that this could be a hate related crime that
00:58:08
this is some type of hate crime yes we have a small population of people but we only have about 3% of them being
00:58:18
African-American in Florida right and this is no I want to be clear here this is no direct disrespect to the people of
00:58:26
Flora because you can have an outsider come in and commit a hate crime in your Tiny Town and then leave right but it's
00:58:35
something that we should examine you could Target that house by saying well I know that African-American people live
00:58:43
there and so that is something that has been speculated on and unfortunately until we have somebody standing in front
00:58:51
of a judge we won't know what the motivating Factor was here for the person that set the fire I want to use
00:58:58
the words of the investigators from what little words that they've released to us
00:59:03
that I think might provide some insight to who may have carried out this crime again everything that I'm seeing captain
00:59:11
and I think you might agree with me points to the words that they're saying make it sound like the fire started
00:59:17
inside the home that they believe that it was started inside the home yeah I agree and I think what backs that up is
00:59:25
they're looking at the the range and the stove mhm they're also talking about we
00:59:30
we heard the rumors or early statements that the fire may have started in the kitchen we hear the mother complaining
00:59:36
about Outlets not working in the kitchen area and I'm with you I feel like a Serial arsonist does not feel likely
00:59:45
here but I did spend a decent amount of time looking into that because for some bizarre reason Flora has a terrible
00:59:53
record with house fires and and has a what I have to believe is a higher than normal fatality rate due to house fires
01:00:01
at least in the months in the Years around this Flora case so I went looking into those because sadly once one thing
01:00:09
that is not terribly uncommon when you have a Serial arsonist is that it is in fact a first responder in fact I'll give
01:00:16
you a quote here 94% of seral arsonists are male very few are caught 16% approximately are caught but set maybe
01:00:26
30 or more fires before being caught First Responders set fires premeditated with intent to return to the fire in a
01:00:35
professional capacity that's beyond strange to me it's not likely but it's not terribly uncommon mhm and like you
01:00:43
said not a high success rate in this town I mean you're having a lot of house fires again some of that is going to be
01:00:52
due to just older buildings and not buildings that are kept up I mean when I lived in Richmond Indiana the thing that
01:01:00
I was really shocked by you know where I come from in Columbus when you're renting you're normally renting
01:01:07
apartment or apartment unit when I lived in Richmond if you're renting you're probably more likely to be renting a
01:01:14
house a single family house or a single family house that they turned into shared living and again not a great
01:01:20
success rate anywhere in this country at solving these AR fires but to give you some kind of
01:01:27
background here on what we may be looking for as far as a speculation into a physical description profile of of a
01:01:37
likely offender if it was somebody that was setting an arson fire that didn't have any ties to the family that wasn't
01:01:46
inside the home or was not invited into the home then what we're probably looking at here captain and these are
01:01:54
just National statistics 44% of the arsons that are cleared in this country are committed by white
01:02:03
males under I'm sorry 44% of the arsons that are cleared in this country are committed by individuals that are under
01:02:11
18 years of age and 64% are under the age of 25 males make up as we said earlier that
01:02:22
high percentage number of off ERS and 75% of those arrested are white 23% are black so if you're going to put
01:02:33
a number if you're going to play a numbers game here on the physical description of a likely offender again
01:02:40
if this is an arson not tied directly to the mother or anyone in the family we're
01:02:46
probably looking for a rather young guy or somebody that was 25 or even let's even go 29 and under at the time of this
01:02:53
fire and given the makeup of the general area and the statistics that we see nationally it's highly likely that it
01:03:03
might be a white male that committed this crime where the thing gets tricky is again back to those words makes it
01:03:12
sound like they believe that the point of origin to be somewhere inside the structure which then takes away from the
01:03:21
probability of it being a Serial arsonist mhm that makes you go back to what doug
01:03:26
Carter has said that they don't believe that they've been given full access to the family or full access to the
01:03:33
Dynamics and what was going on in and around that home leading up to the fire meaning let's say it didn't have a
01:03:42
faulty lock we would want to know things right like who had a key who had access
01:03:48
to the home who frequented the home what would they do while they were there these are all things that the Indiana
01:03:56
State Police would like to know especially if they believe that the fire started inside and if they believe that
01:04:02
it was through the use of accelerants they've probably identified the accelerant now you said something off
01:04:08
mic that is very important to remember people keep accelerance around their homes MH
01:04:15
they're part of our everyday life this is one of those cases right where we have very little information and
01:04:23
unfortunately it doesn't sound like they feel like they can come off of any of that information because later a
01:04:29
conviction might Teeter on the idea of who knows what but also the public is really kind of handcuffed here where we
01:04:37
can't offer much help because we don't know one who they're suspicious of what kind of accelerant we should be
01:04:45
looking out for who was coming and going from that area and if they're even right
01:04:51
if the investigators are even correct that it might be somebody that is tied to the family well again I want to go
01:04:56
back to the possible connection with the deli I just sent you a picture through text message it was one of the it was
01:05:04
just a news article talking about the floor of fires it was talking about local businesses donating stuff to the
01:05:12
family and you see a worker that looks like he is coming down the steps and he was probably in charge of boarding up
01:05:21
the windows at the time and this picture kind of sparked a lot of online detectives armchair detectives
01:05:31
going like well look at this guy he kind of looks like Bridge guy and kind of looks like he's wearing the same jacket
01:05:39
as Bridge guy kind of has that dumpy pouch look in the front of the jacket like he almost has items in his
01:05:50
front pockets or something of the jacket and and look I don't I don't know how much weight there is to this but I I
01:05:58
really think it's just simply it was a picture in an image this guy caught this person's eye or caught these sther eyes
01:06:08
and then used this as a possible connection between Deli and florif fires it feels to me like anybody with
01:06:14
eyeballs somebody somebody that can see has made these comments I feel like Bridge guy a lot of people look like him
01:06:22
obviously that's one problem that Indiana State Police have had in that investigation so many side by side so
01:06:28
many people giving tips that are simply this guy looks somewhat like him I don't
01:06:34
even think that we have a great picture of Deli of the bridge guy to begin with correct uh so I think that that's caused
01:06:42
a lot of confusion and a lot of problems I see two very different cases here um me too based off but I just want I just
01:06:50
wanted to point out that like yeah when you see this picture and some somebody goes oh well that's happened right by
01:06:56
Deli and doesn't that guy look a little bit like Bridge guy mhm somebody could go oh well I could see somebody going
01:07:03
down a rabbit hole and trying to figure out who this individual was and how are they connected uh not just to the floor
01:07:09
fires but how are they're connected to Deli but I think it's a it's just a rabbit hole well speaking of rabbit
01:07:16
holes one that I found myself in in regards to the serial arsonist or first responder arsonist angle to it this is a
01:07:26
very weird portion of the story and I want to make sure that I cut everyone off at the pass here rather than them
01:07:33
contacting me and saying did you look at this Josh Dinger the officer that was one of the good officers that was trying
01:07:40
to help trying to get victims out of this house who was sent to the hospital himself oddly enough this is not the
01:07:50
first time that he's responded to a house fire that has ended in F ality right from the information I could find
01:07:58
Captain this is the third situation in about six seven years where he's responding to a fire uh and running
01:08:09
inside so I want to make sure that we are clear here that we're not throwing him under the bus because this would be
01:08:17
two very different people that we're talking about one this guy's running into burning buildings trying to save
01:08:22
people that that's a much different guy than our suspicions of a first responder
01:08:28
serial arsonist right I want to be very clear about that I also want to make sure that we point out here while the
01:08:33
Flora of fire that we're discussing today has been deemed an arson the other two fires that I could find that he was
01:08:40
one of the First Responders to in fact I believe he was the first responder to the other fires they were deemed yeah
01:08:48
one was electrical one was an electrical fire and the other uh they know the cause of so we're not talking about a
01:08:56
situation here where he's report repeatedly showing up to arson fires yeah I could see somebody having a
01:09:04
suspicion that oh you start this fire and then you show up and then you save the individuals and then you become a
01:09:12
local hero because of it but again anybody that would do anything like that is deranged in my opinion one thing I do
01:09:20
want to point out and give kudos to a web sleuther for you know I don't want to I don't want to get too heated at the
01:09:27
whole web Luther Community here I I like the web Luther Community yes maybe they
01:09:33
come up with some far-fetched ideas sometimes but the more that people are looking into these cases the more that
01:09:41
people are talking about them the more pressure we have on law enforcement to actually solve these cases I personally
01:09:48
I find that the internet has a lot of far-fetched ideas in these cases as far as the actual web sthers go right I feel
01:09:58
like they're a lot more spot-on or more realistic and logical in their pursuit of Justice in these cases so I want to
01:10:07
make sure that we point out here something very different from somebody just going oh this guy looks like that
01:10:13
guy um well I do want to point out that true crime garage it's been it's a proven fact that true crime garage
01:10:20
listeners are one the best web Luthers more knowledgeable on on crime in general and the best looking and best
01:10:31
smelling listeners of all True Crime podcast and that's a fact that is a fact that's backed up by science science and
01:10:43
Edison research this is something that's gone unreported or I don't know if that's the correct word here not
01:10:49
reported however you want to put it but one thing that I think that's interesting here is that 3 weeks before
01:10:56
the fire a man named John taden filed for divorce from Galen Rose and again there are literally no reports in any of
01:11:04
the media about this or her even having a husband at all right the only reason we know about this is because a Savvy
01:11:14
web sluther user found the marriage disolution petition so I'm not saying that there's any that this is any way
01:11:22
connected to one another but it is fact it is something that did happen so we know that John filed for divorce on
01:11:30
October 31st of 2016 and the court website listing the parties to the petition as John's
01:11:39
address was listed in Texas so we don't know where he was in relation to Florida
01:11:46
Indiana I mean he very likely could have been at his home in Texas and had been there for weeks and months and months
01:11:53
but that is something that we did uncover when looking into this case well again this case is very confusing you
01:12:00
want to know why law enforcement is saying that she's the mother of these four children wh why she's not being as
01:12:08
Cooperative as they think they that she should be it also could be a situation hey she's going possibly through this
01:12:15
divorce is she afraid to come forward and and to tell law enforcement to look into different individuals we don't know
01:12:24
that could she not trust the investigation itself is where I think that we might stand here and I think
01:12:30
that would make the most sense because look you're not coming out right away saying whether it's arson or an accident
01:12:38
she was very Cooperative in the early parts of this investigation well and maybe her lawyer is saying look because
01:12:45
the law enforcement has flipped flop back and forth maybe they're going to flip back eventually and say oh you know
01:12:51
what more findings we don't don't think this is arson well part of it too and will that
01:12:58
affect a later lawsuit a civil lawsuit down the line part of it too though Galen lives in California now which last
01:13:07
time I looked at a map is nowhere near Indiana and so where the investigation right beside it may have stalled and
01:13:16
where we have Indiana State Police on record saying we don't feel like the family's being overly Cooperative with
01:13:24
us at this point in our investigation I I would like to know why are are we to believe that who is at
01:13:31
fault because of that is it simply that she doesn't live in Indiana anymore and we've not made a great deal of effort to
01:13:40
speak with her or is it simply the fact that she was a mother of four children that died in a
01:13:46
fire and some people don't recover from that well that's why she moved to California she said you know early on on
01:13:54
the the the community and she has thanked the community time and time again her and her family have thanked
01:13:59
the community for their handling of this tragic situation and the way that they treated her and her family afterwards
01:14:05
and Tred to lift them up in any way that they possibly could but you know she said I couldn't live there anymore I I
01:14:13
lived there with my four children I drove by that house it's near downtown Florida she's like I would pass that
01:14:20
house and my my life would be ruined over and over again yeah I'm waking up to the same nightmare every day well and
01:14:29
think about like her job like you said if she's a gas station attendant the amount of locals she's seeing every day
01:14:36
you know if I went into that gas station I I'd want to give her hug out I'd wanted to tell her hey I'm sorry for
01:14:41
your loss hearing that hundreds and hundreds of times a day as as heart felt as it might be it just it's like a
01:14:51
dagger every time and sadly what I'm worried about here Captain as more time passes we know how all these cases go be
01:14:59
it arson or otherwise it just becomes less likely that we will get Justice for these four girls and that we will get
01:15:08
some answers this is such a tragic case take the time to go to our Instagram or Twitter or Facebook will be
01:15:17
posting pictures of these four beautiful girls and other photos that are related
01:15:24
to this case you can find those again True Crime garage wherever Twitter Facebook Instagram Indiana State Police
01:15:33
are still investigating this sad and tragic case they are still looking for the person or persons responsible they
01:15:41
would like information leading to the arrest of those persons or the person responsible for this fire remember four
01:15:50
young girls were killed in their Flor Indiana home on November 21st 2016 this was determined to be an arson
01:15:59
fire there is a reward for information if you have any information please please reach out to the Indiana State
01:16:07
Police you can call them at 1 1800 382 [Music] 4628 [Music] thank you so much for listening thank
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recommended reading for the great listeners this week today we are recommending that you go cheer yourself
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up and enjoy some really damn good music go listen to our friend Lucinda Williams
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specifically check out her great album titled good Souls better Angels Lucinda Williams music is available on Apple
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music Spotify and pretty much wherever you go to find really great music check out Lucinda Williams and you'll find
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that great recommendation and great True Crime book titles documentaries and plenty more on our recommended page at
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true Crim garage.com yeah and a big cheers to our buddy Travis until next week be good be kind and don't
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