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well I've been looking forward to this all weekend the captain sat down and had what I can only imagine to be a
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fascinating conversation with an author that I'm sure that some of you have heard of or may even own some of his
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books I'm talking about William Ramsey he is the author of children of the Beast prophet of evil and the book that
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we recommended last week Abomination whether or not you agree with him his thoughts theories and books about
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Aleister Crowley and The West Memphis Three are certainly interesting and controversial this week the captain
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spoke with Ramsay about a true crime theory that is highly discussed this is the smiley face killer the smiley face
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murder theory is a theory Advanced by two New York City detectives that many young men found dead in the bodies of
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water across several Midwestern American states over the last decade did not accidentally drown but were in fact
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victims of a serial killer or potentially multiple killers as I said I've been looking forward to this all
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weekend let's listen in together on a conversation with William Ramsey and the captain
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[Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] foreign [Applause] William first I want to thank you for
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joining us in the garage I've been a fan of your work as far as 9 11 as far as Aleister Crowley and as far as West
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Memphis Three which is a huge popular case and a case that is near and dear to mine and Nick's heart
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um and then all of a sudden I see you do this smiley face killer and I'm interested on how you got into
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this theory of the smiley face killer well that's a great question I was always I kind of uh followed this
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trajectory of the occult and while I was researching my most recent book which is
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called Children of the Beast it's about Aleister Crowley's influence on the 20th
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century I kept seeing the smiley face and I had remembered this whole series of cases that was mentioned for the last
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maybe 15 20 years publicly as the smiley face killers and and that's really how I
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got my start I probably started researching in early 2016 and the reason this these series of
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cases of young men disappearing and then being found in water got the the name smiley face Killers is because the
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original two or three well it's really three it's uh Jeff Gannon Duarte out of New York and Gilbertson they noticed
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that in some of these disappearances and the drought finding the bodies in water
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there's been a smiley face so I got the name the smiley face killers and this this phenomenon started over 20 years
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ago and so that's really how I got interested when I started researching it in 2016
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really the first case that I researched was the case that you guys on the garage
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uh followed which was Joey Le beaut that was really the first case and when he disappeared I was following a researcher
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who's the main researcher on my film Jim Smith and when he disappeared I said if
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this guy fall gets found in water I'm going to freak out and and he was found in water 19 days late later in the uh as
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you say skiota River about this spelled Kyoto but uh um so yeah that was a tragic case and that's
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really kind of how I got started researching the cases so I wanted to kind of cover everything so I actually
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you know a couple of the of the True Crime podcast that you covered involves some of the cases that
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I also investigated as well yeah I'm not finished with the documentary yet but you also did Joshua demon
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and yeah that's an interesting case as well I think I don't know if I put Ross into the documentary but I did some
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Illinois cases and definitely Joey the beat what's interesting to me is this is kind of loosely uh connected to the
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website the the Charlie project and I say Loosely because that's just kind of a collection of missing men in college
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age roughly right yeah there's a few cases there's another one Footprints at The River's Edge which covers these
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cases and a lot of the cases show up on web slits so there's just a lot of Internet researchers posting information
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about these disappearances there as well which I found to be invaluable for cases
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that it happened over 10 years ago you basically hone in on 30 cases I think so I think I listed them out but I I really
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covered a lot of cases in the US and the UK there were more cases that have happened I did one in Thailand France
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and Spain I mean excuse me but uh yeah I would say the coverage of the case is probably 40 or 45 I think as far as the
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cases that fit into this type of Mo this type of sequence of events where young men are out at night disappear their
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search intensely and then found much later in water I would say that there's conservatively about 150 of those cases
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and possibly peaking in at a very liberal maybe 300 or 400 of these types of murders that have happened in the
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world over the last 25 years 30 years right so there's hundreds and and and what are you using
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to whittle that down I mean what what are your did you have like a a strict criteria or was it a little loose well I
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tried to for the for the film that I made all the cases that I included were younger people out at bars who were
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found in water and there are other cases that may fit outside that you and I had
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chatted about shape of the Shaffer case that happened in Columbus Ohio that was another one at a bar he was never found
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but that was a case that was really on the edge of whether I was going to put it in and I'd researched that as well to
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shape our case through True Crime garage as a matter of fact but um so I I think there are many cases that
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there are other researchers interesting who've looked into these cases they've turned them something different and I
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would actually argue or state that smiley face Killers is a kind of a misnomer it just got that name because
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of that's how people Associated these similar types of cases throughout multi-state jurisdictions but right
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there are other there's a guy in Manchester his name's Gary Jay he is working on a documentary right now
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called the Manchester Pusher about that story and there's cases that are still happening in Manchester
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um there's also a girl in Boston her name was Elise Soper I interviewed her and she wrote about the Boston drownings
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on her excellent blog called Cryptid antiquarian and she you know she's a great writer but that K those cases that
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she posted about garnered her I think it was something crazy I think it is either half a million or a million
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people viewed it she had like 200 or 300 comments on that blog so people were reading that with great interest so and
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those Boston cases I included as well Zach Marr um some of these other more recent cases
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so I really tried you know I based my research upon Gilbert and gannon's excellent book it's called case studies
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of for instance forensic drownings and built on their kind of General thesis and then you will like we said you
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whittled that down to about 30 or 40 uh different victims correct and I Pro you know I had a much larger list but those
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are the ones that came to my attention and even since the the finishing of the documentary in October of 2017 there's
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probably been another 20 cases or 30 cases so um yeah it's remarkable you know there's
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these cases happening all over the world really there were some in Hamburg Poland
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um there was one in Vienna so you know it's uh it's remarkable can we go through just a short list of when you're
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watching the documentary it starts becoming very apparent well one the age range
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almost the type of victim where they're located before they go missing can you dive into that a little bit absolutely I
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mean I think that you know their age range is probably is college age so it's somewhere between 18 or 19. I would say
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the mean age is 23 24 but it goes up to 28 there's been some outliers are included in a 30 couple 30 year old men
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but yeah but but even the even them they they almost appear younger true excellent point you know there's been a
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couple cases these guys could easily pass for somebody in their 20s um but you know the the there's one
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researcher who has kind of made a spreadsheet and he came down to the body mass index all these guys are fit
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healthy people there's almost nobody with a beer belly or overweight or oversized they're almost all
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fitting into a very narrow graph of you know young fit men so that's that's a remarkable thing about
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these cases which is which is interesting on two levels because I had a detective look at this and they said
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well well one nobody's oversized as nobody's really tall nobody's really strong like
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brooding men uh and nobody's way overweight so then there would be easy easier to take control of but also
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easier to move the body later I mean and I think it shows this kind of this this planning and the selection of
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some of these men I believe that they're they're selected or targeted on the nights that they're out can can you dive
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into that a little bit I mean I think that you know when I was researching these cases and a lot of things that
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didn't go into the documentary there were actually a couple near people who survived being drugged
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um in yeah in the case studies in forensic drownings they talk about a couple cases of guys who went to the
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emergency room and had no memory so there's a a current of drugging either through GHB
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Gannon and Gilbertson saw and and doses in some of the victims that GHB is gamma
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hydroxybutyrated it's endogenous it's in your system but in large doses it capacitates people so that's a common
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trait and that shows that some of these people are selected in drug it's it's like the date rape drug
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um there has been other people have made public statements and actually include one case in my uh documentary about a
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guy who was drugged in Boston and ended up underneath a road and called the police he said I don't even know how I
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got here when he went to court he said be careful watch your drink you can get drugged so those in other cases and
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there's other key people who talked or who wrote things on the Lee soper's blog and others about strange meeting strange
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men who wanted to talk to them and ask them about their background and buy them a drink and so you know there's a lot of
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suspicious elements there and I then there's also a some a commonality in the more recent
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cases of some of these young men being on gay dating apps uh particularly Joey Le beaut Dakota James out of Pittsburgh
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so that's actually fairly close to Columbus Ohio I mean not super close but it's you know some people have have
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traced some of these deaths along a freeway Corridor but there was a lot of cases in Pittsburgh Jimmy Slack
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you know some of these other cases but both of those young men and others um were on gay dating apps and you know
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there's been not not just these types of smiley face murder type events but you know they're people criminals have used
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these apps to you know roll or assault people and take their money so you know right
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um so as far as the selection process those apps such as Grindr or these other ones
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could you be used by perpetrators of these crimes as a selection type focus of their victim um and I include in this
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case a recent case where the inquest is still going on about what happened as a case out of
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London of a man using gay apps to and he was multiple names multiple gay apps to
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select his victims who he murdered through GHB is it fair to say it seems like um the the cases that are older
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uh to the newer case it seems like the percentage of homosexual men being targeted is going up good point I think
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that that that seems to be uh more overt in these cases it seems like in the older cases there were elements to the
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older cases particularly in Wisconsin of kind of gay bars but some of these newer
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cases like Joey the Butte for example um associated with gay bars of Dakota James
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as well so yeah I think that that's that's a good point yeah so Joey actually went missing after leaving
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um the union which uh I don't know if it's actually uh considered a gay bar or just gay friendly uh I know a lot of my
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friends and and other people we've gone there and drank multiple times and there
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was actually a lot of rumors that there was a bartender either there or across the street that
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was that eventually got in trouble for drugging um and and which I never understood why
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you would drug one of your customers and it wasn't like he was doing it to take advantage of anybody that's an
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interesting point well one of the aspects of that case the public isn't aware of is that the union also owns the
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gay bar across the street so that they oh that's interesting yeah so that was one of the aspects that I found out
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about Joey Le beaut is there is a correlation between that and he was on his phone the last text message was a
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scrambled garbled message like GST ion like possibly and that's actually not uncommon in a lot of these cases a lot
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of these guys send texts their last texts you know and and it could have been in a drug State and you wouldn't
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know what your it might have been a cry for help but you don't know well said exactly so it's very scary that that
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thing uh he didn't know what he was walking into he was walking into trouble probably the same thing with Schaefer
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you know they get lured in there for one reason or another um but yeah there I mean unfortunately
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the drugging elements uh still common I've hear stories even there was a prominent guy who got caught here in
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Santa Monica at a very nice well-known establishment people saw him drug his date and he got caught um so you know
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those are heterosexual but so these these I mean and the interesting thing about these cases I think that
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women are very aware of their drink and very aware of the possibility of getting
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date raped through so many cases public cases Cosby Etc but men don't seem to think that they're targets and I think
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that there's this in some of these victims they don't see it coming you know so I think that that's something to
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get the word out about is that young men really can be are in a a pool you know in a age group that are
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being stalked or victimized by what's known as the smiley face killers when I used to play in bars every weekend and I
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used to tell a lot of the listeners if you lose sight of your drink toss it just get rid of it it's not it's not
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worth the three to five bucks which you don't know what happened and then the funny thing was uh or not a funny thing
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was uh I was playing acoustic gig and I had a gentleman walk into the bar you know probably
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um I don't know 30 feet straight to the bar didn't say hi to anybody just went right to the bar ordered two shots for
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me and for him didn't know the guy brought the shot to the stage handed me the shot I said thanks very
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much I put it down didn't take it the guy starts yelling take your shot take your shot I said
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no no man I'll I'll take it later I'll take it later take your shot I go look dude I don't know you I'm not taking the
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shot the dude threw down his shot and took off running and I thought I just thought well what what is going on here
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you know uh and I always well and I always wonder and you probably uh have some of the same
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similar feeling as you don't know it if by covering any of these cases if you're
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going to be targeted by anybody I mean it's interesting when you bring up that shot because that's how River Phoenix
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died somebody came up behind him and handed him a shot and that was the hot fix that ended his life you know he just
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and then he drank it he said what was in that and it was a massive amount of both
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speed and heroin so you gotta you got to be careful in that company you know and
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I think he probably felt he I don't I didn't put him in the smiley face Killer's cases but he was in a bar at
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night and that ended his life so you gotta really be careful and you're lucky to be you
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know in those environments you got you can't let your guard down at all right and and I think
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um by you covering this and by other people bringing awareness to these cases that maybe uh men will start being a
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little more wise as the women have become over the years yeah there's a couple I included in this is pot like a
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Exemplar uh possible um her type perpetrators there's a guy named lamphere l-a-n-p-h-e-r you can
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read about them I included in my documentary he was in Wisconsin but he would go around at night at bars and
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people had seen him in one of the one of his victims saw him in a bar playing pool and he would go around at night and
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look for men after the bars got out that was his that was his hunting ground and
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it was interesting too because lamphere was I think on the surface he was heterosexual but he also had decided and
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you know it kind of looks like the Herb Baumeister type thing where they have a surface he had a kind of a surface
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normalcy but he and he would abduct them and keep them and the way he got caught
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is one of his victims got out and so yeah it was I mean it's terrifying to think that that's what happens but I
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think that that is an element in all smiley face killing cases because a lot of these people have disappeared
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for somewhat significant amount of time Dakota James was missing for 40 days and if you watch the documentary I show
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conclusively that they searched the area where he was found the day or the weekend before he was
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found on a Monday morning so on Sunday night he magically kind of appeared in um in the in the river right there in
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Pittsburgh so yeah so let's go back to the Joey Le Butte case for a little bit because he was missing for 19 days
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I don't know if there was ever a report and I could not find it before we talked
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on if they actually searched the sciota before that day but I'm assuming at some
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point they probably did within those 19 days I would assume so um and the the interesting thing well
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it's kind of graphic but when people pass away in water bodies decompose and typically surface um just like the
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process of decomposition so often in in very temperate weather there's a graph like uh a doctor had
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made but you know at the out at the very outlier in super cold it's like 20 or 25 days so
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in normal weather it's somewhere within a week so why are these guys not being found
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within no you know if they had drowned and I think right I tried to prove and one of the aspects of my documentary I
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think I proved conclusively is that these are not drownings they've been called by the FBI drownings they've been
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called by other people or you know random thing you know suspicious drownings but a lot of these people
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there have been um and yeah I think there was a very lousy surveillance video of Joey the Butte
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he's upright you know he's upright walking around in the short North in the union there's other people Dakota James
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is walking and typing at the same time so he's not too drunk his mom said he was not a heavy drinker you know
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Kelleher out of Boston upright all these guys Garcia out of Boston Boston is a hot spot but you know these are
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remarkable that they can call these guys are somehow so they can walk upright and
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then suddenly get incapacitated and drowned and typically very um benign non-high current Rivers like the Syota
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in that area where Joey Libby was found was actually an Eddy outside of the main
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current of the river so it's highly unlikely that he somehow wandered over there and just you know drowned well and
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I always wondered I've never fallen into water why I was drunk but I would assume
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that one would almost get a shock to their system and almost sober up a little bit to you know swim to the
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surface get out of the water uh I mean you're talking about very high levels of intoxication that they would have to be
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to not be able to to just pass out and then just drown I mean and and I you know I've played in bars for years
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um roughly you know rarely would you ever see somebody that intoxicated uh you every now and then they would
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somebody be very intoxicated passing out at the bar well at that point they have
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to leave the bar and normally the bar calls them a taxi or Uber or whatever um so you would think because bars get
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in big trouble for that so you'd think that these individuals being at bars if there were that intoxicated that the bar
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would at least have known something or we would see that at any time on these surveillance tapes
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because most of these tapes that we see of these men they are like you said they're not extremely intoxicated so
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let's start with though the why why do you think these boys are going missing I believe they're targeted
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off they're well there's well I can tell you what that's not happening there's no
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Financial crimes associated with these guys there's nothing going on so why are they abducted I believe that and I think
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I should it's okay it's okay to be graphic too well I mean you don't want to get two but I think that their target
00:22:09
audience because that these are homosexual type Associated crimes and these men fit in ideal healthy young
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athletic not not fat and that's what they're targeted for is primarily sexual purposes
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and then the who who is interested in these type of people you know I think that that's really your your if the
00:22:35
police want to type well they have to ascertain that these are not accidental drownings they have to see that these
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are dumpings of body people who are probably pre-deceased um but uh once they determine that these are are
00:22:50
strategic you know strategic body dumps and water to confuse the cops then they have to go back and see who's
00:22:57
the perps who's the possible purposes what who are the type of people and I identify a lot of those people in my
00:23:03
documentary you know I use exemplars so uh all right so you say people so you it seems like
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to me that these detectives early on when they were talking about that smiley face killer that it was it was one
00:23:17
killer well if they were they're I think they're making a mistake I believe that
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this is a type of learned Mo that's been that I think arose into the public Consciousness in
00:23:27
these events due to the ability of travel and also the ability of communication through International I
00:23:33
mean so I believe in my conclusion is that this type of Mo has been talked about or discussed through fetish sites
00:23:44
or underground dark web stuff and these people have put it other individuals in different parts of the
00:23:52
country and world have put it into practice because they know they can get it's kind
00:23:58
of like a perfect crime and even even at the time in some of the early discussions of the cases you know when
00:24:04
Duarte and Gilbertson were on TV and some of the there were journalists involved in the cases there were people
00:24:10
who came up and said this is the perfect crime that's why they're dropped in water you know
00:24:14
and uh so that's what I that's why I think these cases really came to the people's awareness right at the
00:24:23
correlation at the time the internet uh started growing in usage in the 90s you know so I think uh I think that that's
00:24:31
where you'd have and it's remarkable there's some cases that do not fit the kind of mean you know
00:24:38
Cosmopolitan Urban cases there's a lot in New York Boston it says mostly these are Urban type cases but there was one
00:24:43
case out of Atlanta Georgia a guy's name was nazrahimi he was from Perth Australia and he got caught up in the
00:24:50
wrong crowd he was bisexual hanging out at gay bars and the smiley face killer type Mo happened to him and
00:24:58
uh it's just in that case it's I mean I can tell you stuff offline it blow your mind man it's amazing well
00:25:05
no I wanted to use that one I want you to tell me online uh the the it's just that that case
00:25:14
um he was found in a river uh you know some some of the investigators on the ground there Jim Smith namely said you
00:25:20
know there's there's a some of these guys are really tortured like literally not just held but they
00:25:26
are tortured and there were some reports that he looked like he got hit by a car
00:25:29
now's rahemians that's that's that's not conclusive that's a report but right um
00:25:37
for example Patrick McNiel they call him well he's one of the early Duarte again
00:25:42
in cases he was found south Hudson Bay at a water treatment facility and he he was a student at a college in in New
00:25:50
York City and they said that he was at a bar he was leaving he was puking a car was following him watching him as he
00:25:58
stopped the car stopped and he disappeared found dead and his parents didn't really
00:26:05
know much but after about I think 10 years they got an autopsy in the autopsy told the parents a completely different
00:26:10
story than what they had heard uh so what did they hear well they had heard that their son was just found in the
00:26:17
water and drowned he was a drowning kiss or something like that but right he was
00:26:21
drunk and they probably assumed he's drunk yeah and uh you know the mom is like you know we don't know what's going
00:26:27
on out there well he uh when they got the autopsy the the forensics on it showed that he had
00:26:35
been looked like he had been bound in a chair that he had been tortured with a blow torch on the upper part of his body
00:26:41
that he had like claw marks to his head like somebody hit him in the head with a
00:26:45
hammer and that was never disclosed that at torture aspect of his um abduction so I do believe a lot of
00:26:52
these other cases um these autopsies would tell an incredible story so so I just want the The Listener to be
00:27:02
very clear on this idea that you believe that at some point there was a killer that kind of came up with this
00:27:10
almost kind of like a foolproof plan I find an individual or a target an individual I either slip them drug or
00:27:19
they're partially drunk and then they're this is the type of individual I'm looking for
00:27:24
that I take this person I torture them or or rape them or whatever I do and then at some point I'm going to drop
00:27:31
them into water and that will help destroy a lot of the evidence and competitively so I think that's it
00:27:38
yeah that's the smiley face killer ammo and so then what you're saying is that there's not one smiley face killer but
00:27:43
the but the idea is that then through chat rooms through the dark web through other means that these killers have
00:27:52
almost learned from each other so there might be a smiley face killer in Chicago
00:27:56
or in Columbus and also you know they're so there could be you know 10 of these guys out there
00:28:04
working on the same MO and then the ones and then so then you so then your theory then also goes into
00:28:11
the idea that so if there was a killer in Columbus that maybe he went down to to Georgia and then did it down there or
00:28:18
went to the UK or and it's interesting the death of Joy labute happened during the Arnold
00:28:25
Schwarzenegger classic right so how many people came into town for that body lifting one if you talk to a lot of
00:28:31
detectives they will even State you know you know there's been the question of you know
00:28:37
can you get away with murder and I've talked to a lot of detectives about this and they always say that one of the
00:28:43
number way number one ways to get away with murder would to not have any connection to the victim
00:28:49
and and so and right and so in this Mo that's why we have you know hundreds of boys missing and and so it's interesting
00:29:00
because you can take your uh Theory a little bit farther if we have you know two to three hundred boys
00:29:06
roughly of this type age body type age that if they're getting these if they're getting kind of a map on how
00:29:18
to commit these crimes online you would assume that if there's five to ten guys doing this
00:29:26
similar that there would be five to ten guys going ah I listen I heard your advice I'm going to do it this way
00:29:35
you know so and that could account for the others so then well there are others there's others that have been found dead
00:29:42
I mean I got to do a list I think that's really important for me to write a book
00:29:45
because then you can see the totality of the cases and some of the outliers that
00:29:49
may not fit the whole water thing but that were clearly abducted and dumped but uh you know there's amazing there's
00:29:55
just so I mean if you watch the whole documentary there's a lot of there's a lot of people kicked out of bars you
00:29:59
know that so that fits in with the whole land fear guy I was talking about Chris
00:30:03
Jenkins out of Minnesota that's a famous case Chris Wilcox Illinois Zach Mar Boston Dakota James Pittsburgh Lance
00:30:11
James Bristol no Lance James was Philadelphia outside of Philadelphia Henry Burke Bristol
00:30:17
Anthony Arena New York city so you know there's I've got those listed out but uh
00:30:22
I mean I think in there's a subculture within that culture that I mean if you watch the documentary I
00:30:30
pretty much lay it out pretty clear what I think is happening yeah so that that brings me into a
00:30:34
question because I always know you know I always knew your work at through books
00:30:38
and you be an author so what made you want to take on doing it as a documentary forum and not as a book
00:30:45
there were other um books that were out there and also I think that through the visual
00:30:51
mean medium you can see things very clearly that something hyper suspicious is happening you know so you can see
00:30:59
these cases like Franco Garcia to Boston that he's walking upright that he's not
00:31:03
the stumbling drunk and that he they searched the um Reservoir where he's at you can
00:31:08
watch the search of the reservoir the cops looking in the reservoir and then he pops up some jogger sees them on the
00:31:14
side so the cops who were searching for him with sonar couldn't find him but some random jogger in the morning can
00:31:19
find him which should tell you something they didn't find him in the afternoon right so they found what happened the
00:31:23
night before the same thing happened with Dakota James and you know some of these other people but uh
00:31:29
you know I think that the visual medium is very helpful in those in that case you can see Anthony Arena had a New York
00:31:36
that he's stumbling drunk and there's literally a car going up a wrong way street trailing him it's amazing like I
00:31:42
don't even know if the cops ever got the license plate of that car or whatever but he was the arena was found down the
00:31:48
Hudson in Hoboken on the other side of uh the Manhattan Manhattan Island where he was last seen it's incredible okay so
00:31:56
you can see I think those visual aspects I do a lot of mapping there's another case I think that's really important
00:32:01
which is Arvin Sharma he was a strange case because he was from Nepal he was The Nepalese but he was out with uh
00:32:08
friends in South DC and was at a bar that also on the side of it was a gay s m bar and he was out disappeared his
00:32:18
brother says he must have seen something that he shouldn't have seen Arvin Sharma
00:32:21
get shows up in the Anacostia River Upstream from where he last was seen so that's even another suspicious cases
00:32:28
so when you see all these suspicious cases one after one after one I think that the conclusion is something really
00:32:34
just you know very sketchy is happening but also you can just see it you know you can see it on the map
00:32:40
do you think it's a one to one ratio as far as you know the attacker and the victim I don't know I really don't I
00:32:47
think that I think they're multiple like lamphere was a lone wolf but you know I think
00:32:53
that there might other big groups you know there might be other people helping out and then putting people at ease oh
00:32:57
you know it's just three of us and you you know then that's it and then a certain moment everything turns there
00:33:02
was one case out of uh Wisconsin the guy's name was Scott Baker I think it was one of the drowning in
00:33:10
forensics cases but he was he was out and got chased by a group of people and the dad sits and I
00:33:16
put it in my document and when the Dad wrote this this was incredible he's flat out says there are groups of people in
00:33:22
cars targeting towns going from town to town looking for victims every night so they would go to one town then the next
00:33:29
town and uh you know it fits in the mobility aspect of I think that is involved in a lot of
00:33:35
these cases so then with these autopsies with these victims that have been they obviously have
00:33:44
injuries other than drowning why do you think law enforcement is not doing a better
00:33:51
job of putting that out there because it seems to me and the some of the cases that we
00:33:57
have covered that are connected to this Theory it seems to me that the cops almost want
00:34:05
to dismiss and and listen and go okay well chances are he was just drunk well there's no you know the toxicology
00:34:13
report doesn't you know support that so what why do you think they're not uh or or do you think well I
00:34:21
think that I actually think that almost in all of these cases the initial opinion well the Butte was actually an
00:34:28
outlier I think that the police there in Columbus actually publicly stated we don't know how he entered the water but
00:34:34
I think a majority of these cases probably 95 to 99 the police have immediately looked at them as accidental
00:34:42
drownings I think that they've come upon the body oh they got drowned and they call somebody a rescue squad and take
00:34:48
them out they don't look them as crime scenes and I think that that changing that perception of founding a young man
00:34:54
in water and looking at as a potential crime scene would change how people look at these cases and I also I talked to an
00:35:01
ex-fbi agent his name was D'Souza and he had some very fascinating things to say
00:35:07
about the smiley face colors um but he said that there's a very uh significant connection to
00:35:18
the authorities and you know the local businesses not to uh categorize these as murders because a lot of these are
00:35:26
college students so a lot of these you know a lot of these uh cases happen in college towns Boston and they don't want
00:35:32
to raise a anything that would besmerge the reputation of the city or the colleges
00:35:37
so that's fascinating Dakota James was a graduate student um yeah so that I think is uh one
00:35:45
important aspect and I also think that you know some of yeah I mean I don't want to get too much into it's
00:35:51
interesting because the chief of police in Boston came out and publicly said that there's no suspicious drownings I
00:35:58
think they're highly I mean you can look through the Boston cases alone they're highly suspicious Keller and Hurley and
00:36:04
I mean one of the Kelleher case he walked out of TDI Garden he crossed over the Saint Charles River went to Paul
00:36:10
Revere Park called an Uber three times disappeared but his phone pinged back across the Saint Charles River South all
00:36:19
the way into kind of almost like I think it's the MIT area how did that happen how did that I mean that's super simple
00:36:26
to that point as well I mean you have Joey Butte going missing uh during one of Columbus's major weekends that they
00:36:34
make up a lot of money by having this Arnold Classic and then also these Boston Celtics games or these hockey
00:36:40
games that these gentlemen are leaving from and it's so but you you would think that these victims lives would be more
00:36:46
important than you know tarnishing the idea that you could go to a hockey game and something bad could happen to you if
00:36:53
you're not careful I would agree I would agree I mean but now what about the cases where there is
00:37:00
clearly you know attack marks on these victims and and different what do you make of that you just is
00:37:08
that just shoddy work or do you think it's just or is it a larger cover up on some level
00:37:14
well that's a good question um you know I think that like Tommy booth that was outside of Philadelphia
00:37:20
he he was found in a place that had been previously searching a very obvious Place eight days after he disappeared
00:37:26
and he had evidence of torture I think he had a broken tooth somebody put a cigarette out on him
00:37:31
um so I don't know why the police aren't disclosed I mean I think it I think it might be an aspect of police work where
00:37:39
they keep certain information from the public unfortunately they're not warning the public which I think
00:37:44
would be important you know so I think that I think it's very odd it's just a very I
00:37:51
mean I can see a clear pattern I've looked at these cases I've studied them and I'm not exaggerating when I say the
00:37:57
number 150 all over the world um so you know I I guess it's just not the police's job to warn the public that
00:38:06
this this could happen and like I said if they're not considering these to be crime scenes then their work is done
00:38:12
right away some people have actually speculated it's a lot easier for the police to take somebody off their books
00:38:17
by just saying accidental drowning that's not on my caseload yeah move on yeah and and some of these towns you'd
00:38:24
think you know maybe more so a Boston than than a Columbus but you know these major uh cities where the crime rate is
00:38:31
higher and there would be more K uh case load so maybe but maybe that's part of um
00:38:38
the teachings uh during the dark web in these chat rooms is you know to do this in bigger cities instead of smaller
00:38:46
towns where you know the law enforce if you know because if this happened and and in my town which is south of
00:38:52
Columbus um it would not they would not rest until it was solved that's interesting
00:38:57
yeah and that may be it that may be the urban rural Dynamic is that these are all urban areas and you know things
00:39:04
happen next you know move on to the next one New York you know 20 or 30 deaths that have happened there and all found
00:39:10
in the water is a pittance compared to the population right right you know so um yeah it's a
00:39:19
it's a very interesting Dynamic but I can I mean these these events are happening there was one right recently
00:39:26
just out of um Illinois there was enough there's another out of Manchester within the
00:39:31
last month you know so um have you have you ever thought of me about making this um like a podcast
00:39:38
Series where you could go through all the individual cases that's a good idea and then as the new ones come out you
00:39:46
could say well I think this fits into the into my theory or this doesn't fit into myself they all fit into the same
00:39:53
Mo this guy's name was Kyle Rogers outside of Chicago and disappeared gay you know found in a river you know so
00:40:02
and the interesting thing is my documentary actually spent about a half an hour talking about the occult nature
00:40:06
of the smiley face that's how really I got started was seeing the smiley face associated with Alan Moore acid music
00:40:12
you know some of these occultists so um there is a there is this element of these crimes that is a cult in nature
00:40:21
and if you're really you know very aware and just kind of watching you'll see the smiley face pop up in very
00:40:27
strange places you know it's like it's popped up in the new it you know they use the smiley face you know so the
00:40:34
symbolism of the smiley face is associated with some of these cases no doubt now but that that's a smaller
00:40:42
percentage in the cases you find than than what the detectives uh initially yes I've definitely found recent smiley
00:40:49
faces Zach Marr um was out of Boston there was a something uh this guy Wilkins out of
00:40:56
Bristol there was a smiley face of a Man Behind Bars which is remarkable right down the path where he was last seen
00:41:03
Wilkins was another case that I followed a more recent case within the last two years that you can see him walking on
00:41:10
surveillance video and the cops came out with the underwater scuba divers to look
00:41:15
for his body in a very small pond spent the time working for looking for him and
00:41:19
then he showed up later in that same pond so it's uh it's pretty clear yeah and then you kind of you kind of Wonder
00:41:25
too if these individuals are also watching the media and because if they have this individual and it would be
00:41:33
interesting based on autopsy they would be able to um if it was done correctly we'd be able
00:41:39
to see that this person was alive uh for you know 14 14 days of the 19 days they
00:41:45
went missing you know and and and then when where they dumped and um but and like we were kind of saying before it's
00:41:53
like what if this guy's watching the news and finds out well they just uh they just they just went through the CO2
00:42:00
River so now I'm going to uh dump Joey there that's now where I'm going to dump it terrifying thought but it's not
00:42:06
uncommon uh for serial killers or people to ingratiate themselves with police forces or watch the news to see what's
00:42:13
going on or taunt police so um yeah it's plausible well I appreciate um talking with you I I don't know if if
00:42:22
you have something else that you wanna tossing I can say that if you want to watch the film it's available on Vimeo
00:42:29
all you have to do can stream anywhere in the world vimeo.com look up smiley face or my name William Ramsey it's a
00:42:35
very long uh documentary I really did try to document operative work you know a lot
00:42:41
of these cases I include a lot of subtitles so people can read along and you can reference a lot of the
00:42:45
information that I put in the documentary to cases or web sleuths or things like that and check and verify
00:42:52
all those facts I've never had any of the facts you know uh questioned or anything people have looked through the
00:42:57
case but I've had a very positive response and you can look at the comments on my Vimeo page to just see
00:43:05
all the comments I mean we talked to you and I talked about nazarehimi one of his
00:43:09
family members from our friends of him from Perth Australia was able to see the documentary
00:43:14
and comment that this family didn't believe the story so uh you know I think that that is a very valuable thing so
00:43:21
people can be aware of this there since I made the documentary or was working on
00:43:26
making the documentary you know I found out in Perth in the harbor of Perth alone there's been 80 cases of men found
00:43:33
in the harbor so I haven't even gone and looked through that and I also found out
00:43:37
same thing happens in Amsterdam so this is really a global event and a lot of these guys they just had a recent
00:43:43
case out of UK Liam Colgan it's just incredible to watch these people disappear and then be found in
00:43:50
water Liam Colgan travels I think he was in Hamburg and I'm watching and I go man
00:43:54
they need to look at the river and then you know three weeks later he's found in
00:43:58
the river so they just had another kid Sims leave a bar and um he was in Scotland somewhere by Saint
00:44:07
Andrews golf course they looked all the car of course they just found his remains in the ocean so you know uh that
00:44:14
was another one there's another case of a guy from laughing rabbit or he was the
00:44:18
head of a band he was found in Scotland as well so these are cases that are just
00:44:22
happening over and over again same Mo even to this day and and I don't know much about the dark web but you would
00:44:30
think that um FBI and CIA needs to take this stuff a little more serious and then maybe you
00:44:37
know because there could be a hub somewhere I mean for all we know there is you know training videos you know
00:44:45
good point well I showed that Emma if you reached the end of the documentary I cover
00:44:50
a movie that was I don't want to name the name a movie that was on Netflix where they are showing water torture
00:44:56
young man some older dude just shoving him in the water and torturing the Daylights at him it's incredible so you
00:45:02
know something associated with that and I mean if you want to get into the fetish world and the people who are
00:45:09
involved in that Venezuela it gets really dark and uh you know these guys have taste and interest that shocked them up
00:45:17
you know what they're up to well I mean I don't know if you followed the Bruce MacArthur case yes absolutely
00:45:24
which is very similar so there's a lot of similarities the only difference was he wasn't dumping uh he was not taking
00:45:31
his victims and put him in water he was he was putting them in flower beds right
00:45:36
well said do you know how they busted him and what happened around his arrest yeah well we covered the case but but
00:45:43
they had a ball he had somebody tied down in a bed he had somebody abducted restrained and in a bed I think it was a
00:45:48
young man so um he had a potential next victim in his in his place so well he and if
00:45:56
you get a chance his Vic uh he had another victim That Got Away right I remember that no he was interviewed
00:46:01
right yeah yeah and that's just uh that that was some dark stuff and then you just wandered to you know is it just
00:46:10
are they just getting the information from reading it uh online or is it you know even some something darker like you
00:46:17
said where there's somebody teaching their ways well it I mean you know there's some really dark stuff
00:46:27
in the BDSM found you know fat life stuff but you know some of these guys they take on this and you can read some
00:46:35
of these cases but they become there's a dominant and a submission and some of these guys have strange names
00:46:41
and roles where they're supposedly like teacher tortures it's crazy so I mean it's it's potential that these guys oh
00:46:50
my when I was researching these cases I I knew that you know I come to the conclusion it was something going on
00:46:56
like that this kind of bondage well here I mean here in La there are there are 10
00:47:02
bondage places that you can rent that you as a public can pay money for a couple hours and it's how much do they
00:47:11
cost I didn't find out no but yes but no I mean I was like hey man this is like 20 blocks away from me they're not far
00:47:19
and you I mean I would assume that in a lot of these cities there are places like that they're literal
00:47:26
yeah it's bad dude I mean there was one case that you covered on uh True Crime garage it was a guy who his his choice
00:47:34
of victim were females right but he was an older dude 57 who literally had like a freaking dungeon on his property right
00:47:42
uh I think that was Worley um and he was abducting women one girl was out on a jog or on a ride or bike
00:47:51
ride or something like that and that was one that got away but you know who knows
00:47:54
how many people he was I think that when they catch somebody associated with these murders they're going to find that
00:48:00
the number is Big you know they're gonna find somebody who's a repeat like a Herb
00:48:04
Baumeister so I would definitely warn the audience there are definitely yeah that Grace was crazy yeah crazy her
00:48:12
by Meister was crazy well the yeah the warley up in um Northern Ohio was crazy too because I
00:48:18
used to play up there and so I I was taking a trip about a couple weeks ago and then I just Googled to like while I
00:48:25
was in the area like I'll just Google where that was at well it was basically on the on the way to where I'd I'd
00:48:31
normally go anyways uh and I probably took that road you know 20 30 times and you just go here's this guy that has
00:48:38
this layer and his barn and nobody knew about it you know uh it's I mean there's a lot if you look at
00:48:46
some of these cases of like abductions there's a lot there's there these stories of Dungeons and stuff people's
00:48:54
personal dungeons are they're out there you know these people like the and so there then we Prime but
00:49:01
it's weird though like they're looking for victims and one of the great things about this
00:49:05
documentary is you can buy it or you can rent it so I think that's a great option
00:49:09
yeah I think it's fair five dollars for a week or 12 bucks you can buy it I am halfway through I'm very entertained can
00:49:16
you explain to everybody where they can find you and and the rest of your work because it's not the the first time that
00:49:23
you uh have done tons of research and and brought great content to the world well I appreciate it my website is
00:49:30
William Ramsey investigates if you want signed copies or you want to buy a DVD you go to William Ramsey
00:49:35
investigates.com I'm on Twitter Facebook um I have a couple YouTube I have a YouTube channel William Ramsey
00:49:41
investigates where I will post this interview but uh I also have a show that goes out on spreaker so I'm on iTunes
00:49:50
and everything like that I put out an hour per week if you're interested in that you can go check that out too it's
00:49:55
very cool stuff I'm I'm glad to say that I know you and that uh and now and hopefully we get to talk about the West
00:50:01
Memphis glad to know you and I appreciate you reaching out and thank you very much for
00:50:07
the interview [Music] [Applause]