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GameChanger [Music] [Music] welcome to Shaker Heights episode 6 A Clockwork Orange Lisa PR is dead someone stabbed
00:01:40
her 21 times in the early morning hours of September 14th 1990 she was found behind the Mansion
00:01:47
where her boyfriend Dan dford lived with his parents Dan's friends pointed the finger
00:01:54
at the weird kid in school Kevin young and although there was no evidence linking Kevin to the the crime and even
00:02:01
though he had an alibi he quickly became the prime suspect for the detectives of
00:02:06
this small town department they were out of their league and they knew it so they
00:02:12
enlisted a renowned psychologist from Syracuse University to help them get a confession from Kevin Young no matter
00:02:20
[Music] what yeah I understand that and and indeed that's a very powerful Alibi um
00:02:35
that the father indicates that Dan was in fact in his room and that they both heard the screams together yes that's
00:02:41
that's very powerful there is some I must say that we we had some difficulty still however
00:02:49
with Dan's subsequent Behavior he after they go out to the edge of the property and and I'll go back into the home
00:02:56
apparently satisfied that the source of the scream has left the area whatever and that they can't find anything
00:03:02
unusual apparently Dan reexit the house to find the bicycle and then in fact without telling his parents um calls 911
00:03:11
on his own uh to report what he believes to be now suspicious circumstances but then when the parents hear the Pu it's
00:03:18
outside on the lawn you know and they're distraught and here are all these police
00:03:23
vehicles the crime scene being established Dan goes to bed right Falls asleep uh while the parents are waiting
00:03:31
for the plane closed detective to come in and interview them huh right I found that I I found that unusual um and
00:03:40
somewhat disconcerting but what we decided here was that dick and I decided that well that's not that's academic
00:03:47
right because it's not Dan that we're going to be interrogating it's it's Kevin and whether or not he's the guy or
00:03:53
not we want to give the full shot to to use the best psychological coercion we can right
00:04:00
um if in fact so that we get an admission out of him if in fact he is the killer what is is the Forum talking
00:04:07
to Kevin now he's going to well what we're trying to do is get a investigative grand jury assembled where
00:04:15
all Witnesses would be subpoena and questioned before grand jury including Kevin young what kind of immunity is
00:04:21
involved in that uh none that I know of is Council Allowed no council no council
00:04:28
he may take the Fifth Amendment almost certainly Council would advise him to do that given that he has no immunity even
00:04:34
willing immunity in such an interrogation right Kevin is um uh legally qualifies for adult offender
00:04:41
status is that right that's right let me try to discourse for a minute or two about what I believe to be the
00:04:46
psychological Dynamics behind Kevin's peculiarities there's no question that on the face of it Kevin's evidence is
00:04:53
self-loathing self-deprecation what is sometimes called poor self-image he is in fact
00:05:00
uh I there's some suspicion that his own hospitalization was for an abortive suicide attempt do you know that to be
00:05:08
the case no the most recent one yes not to most well he indicated to the interviewer that he had nothing left to
00:05:16
live for I have that person with me the officer that did the interviewing Sergeant gray is here with me in my
00:05:23
office an excellent job by the way Sergeant it was It was obviously a very productive interview even though we
00:05:28
didn't get an an admission there are some very revealing points that you undoubtedly felt that he was just about
00:05:35
to Tumble to to roll over dick and I both commented that uh in reading your report that first of
00:05:42
all frequently visiting the bathroom I mean how many times three times within some short span of time right right all
00:05:50
the signs of stress that something is bothering him yeah I mean all the physical signs in terms of eye contact
00:05:57
and motion and sitting back and forth for it in your chair and all the classic kind of interview things that you'd like
00:06:03
to see once in a while were all clearly there I mean the stress was real high on
00:06:07
his level what did you make of him saying that he could tell you that he had done it and and then he'd go to the
00:06:13
hospital for a couple years but he really couldn't live with himself he didn't tell you the truth I mean I mean
00:06:19
it it's almost like is there a truth other than he did it that or I mean one of the things we had been warned about
00:06:27
ahead of time was the possibility that he had already Justified some sort of course of action in his mind and if his
00:06:34
justification had something to do with it no I really didn't do it or someone else did it I mean if maybe he had
00:06:41
totally blocked it out we really don't know I mean we were already prepared for the possibility that he had Justified
00:06:48
this somehow and that he wasn't going to feel uh yes this is uh on Jim Wright's advice right right yeah I I I concur um
00:06:57
I I think that Deni as a defense mechanism for Kevin is high in his hierarchies of his ego protection he a
00:07:05
he's a fantasizer he's a his behavior is compensatory in character let me talk about that a bit I think when you find
00:07:13
such virulent self-deprecation self-loathing I think you need to reach for an accountant it doesn't stand on
00:07:20
its own Merit and the the account is that you look at this the self-loathing as compensatory Behavior as denial
00:07:28
Behavior that is to say denial of the intrinsic the underlying belief that that you are in fact Superior that you
00:07:36
are ideal in every way that you are omnipotent um the opposite of someone who is unworthy you are supremely worthy
00:07:44
but that those thoughts are anxiety producing the Greeks used to call that the the sin of chuus the the notion that
00:07:53
you aspire to godhood that you that you are a god causes enormous anxiety and that that anxiety is
00:08:00
compensated for defended against by the posture of this self-deprecating self-loathing fence so you're very happy
00:08:07
to talk about you're being suicidal you're being unworthy that nobody will talk to you you're not found desirable
00:08:15
by either men or women or what what have you because that's your pose that's your
00:08:20
deception what you don't want to talk about is the fact that you're a God that you control everyone that you believe
00:08:28
you control your life Etc and all the people around you you live a deception a pose the opposite of it seems to me that
00:08:37
of what perhaps in the attack we originally took you don't minimize you you maximize what he did his
00:08:45
responsibility his significance his capacity that the crime is important not minimal he doesn't need help he needs
00:08:52
Applause for what he was able to accomplish his significance his importance Etc his guilt feeling
00:09:00
his guilt and there's no doubt that he in fact feels guilty and that this post offense behavior of of starting a new
00:09:06
life and I found that very significant in the statement that his profile of the killer suggests that he would move on
00:09:12
and start a new life and then when he referred to his circumstances at College he referred to that as a new life for
00:09:19
him right he's in fact he's very comfortable and whatever guilt he may have had I think he's been able to deal
00:09:27
with I think that it's transparent and and obvious that the guilt is not sufficient to compensate or overbalance
00:09:33
his fears of the punishment that will acre to will follow upon confession of that guilt he's already fantasized
00:09:41
circumstances of his imprisonment so what we need to do is is we need to arouse him arouse the guilt again and
00:09:49
that that may be difficult because now he's had ample time to scar over to see that nothing is going to happen that
00:09:56
he's been successful his Godlike Powers have again phased him because he is Invincible but I think that's the tact
00:10:04
we need to take that he should feel guilty he doesn't need help he needs punishment does he feel that guilt still
00:10:12
no uh as I'm saying I think he's originally it's completely he was able to compensate adequately for this
00:10:18
because God felt guilt indeed the opposite he would have been conflicted between feeling the importance of having
00:10:25
done something that ordinary Mortals don't do you know normally Mortals don't kill he understands I think this his
00:10:33
problems with his impulse control he's impulsive he has a great deal of difficulty with impulse control he has
00:10:40
to guard against this incredible power that is within him this this power to anger to violence and he has to protect
00:10:46
himself from that and part of that's his pose of self-deprecation Etc self-loathing we need to play to what he
00:10:55
believes to be his strengths and in so doing we will arouse in him his anxieties the anxieties and feeling
00:11:01
Godlike and those anxieties will trigger his guilt feelings again we need to do what you would do more with a a serial
00:11:09
killer it seems to me has in favor the Notions of power in being able to kill to recreate that sense of power
00:11:17
significance that life-taking capacity the interview took the tact of minimizing you need help well you know
00:11:26
they don't really you know you full offenders we can mitigate this to the judge because you felt remorse etc etc
00:11:33
I'm saying and we know that that didn't work right I'm saying we maximize the crime instead maximize the power the
00:11:40
significance you you go back through the crime with a kind of facius dwelling upon the details but particularly with
00:11:48
respect to the power the sheer marvelous power of being able to take a life do you follow me yes I mean almost
00:11:56
pornographic and I'm as you're saying this I'm thinking thinking I know how we could do that I'm just not sure how to
00:12:02
do that under the controlled circumstances here here's what I was thinking what are the we need to shape
00:12:07
up a behavior the same way you would try to shape up a behavior in a laboratory Mouse I'm going to go through that
00:12:14
scenario this this behavioral shaping that's very dramatic works very well look you you take a mouse a rat a
00:12:21
laboratory rat and you want him to let's say twirl around three times clockwise in a sort of ballet like pouette so what
00:12:28
you do to control is you're in control over the reinforcements you don't need to punish but you can withhold the
00:12:36
reinforcements so what you do is you wait for the animal to turn its head and look to the right and then you give it a
00:12:42
little bit of food then you wait and it turns its head to the right and you don't give him food now again for for
00:12:49
turning right you wait until he moves his shoulder to the right along with the head and then you give him a piece of
00:12:54
food and then you keep waiting for more and more exaggerations of this form of behavior until it's a quarter of a turn
00:13:02
and then it's a half a turn then it's a full turn it takes an enormous amount of
00:13:07
patience because you have to wait for this Behavior to appear in classical conditioning rather than operant
00:13:13
conditioning you of course make the response appear that you want because you're dealing with some reflexive
00:13:18
response that you're just going to change to a different stimulus but in operant conditioning you have to wait
00:13:23
for the behavior to to occur now of course you can make the beh more likely to occur because you've got
00:13:30
him in a situation where the animal's hungry right and and inactive you can't condition an animal that's
00:13:37
asleep college classes and introductory courses in Psych curriculum says I've always done this it's it's a nice
00:13:44
demonstration the class gets together and decides that they're going to have the professor stand on his left leg
00:13:50
deliver the whole lecture on his left leg so what they do is they wait for him to shift his weight to the left and then
00:13:56
all of them just nod and smile and they look very very interested in what he's just said and and that's a powerful
00:14:01
reward for the professor and then they wait until it happens again and then they all nod and smile and between this
00:14:08
they would they would hold the reinforcement they look bored inattentive to maximize the reward and
00:14:14
it's very dramatic it works it works every time the professor by the end of class is hopping around on one leg and
00:14:19
doesn't realize why just seems to like to be on the on that one leg to talk on that one leg now here's forgive the
00:14:29
anecdotal sort of thing we need to oper condition Kevin Clockwork Orange on Kevin if if you've seen that film and
00:14:36
the way we do that is when he takes the fifth and he almost certainly will take the fifth you turn your back on him you
00:14:44
ignore him you in fact even better would would be to make aide to somebody else talk to someone else so that Kevin
00:14:53
understands that there is reward out there to be given because Kevin loves attention God expect people to worship
00:15:00
them it's their due but if you ignore them gods don't like that gods don't like to be ignored they like attention
00:15:07
and notice that Kevin in when when you interviewed him he wow you know he he was ready to go for the whole night I
00:15:14
mean you were you were tiring more than he was right absolutely and ready to go forever
00:15:22
I he loved it oh oh he loved it you know he he wanted the polygraph he wanted everything oh jeez you know let's go I
00:15:30
love it you know just just keep giving me attention worship me worship me worship me if he wanted anything if he
00:15:37
ask for a drink of water you turn and give him his fullest attention oh yes yes Kevin you shower him with attention
00:15:43
affection reward now the next time he asks for water we don't now you don't need it again because now you need
00:15:51
something more you need a demonstration of his cooperativeness Etc I think you get the picture we we
00:15:58
just just need to manipulate the reinforcements and you have to do it in a very conscious way trying to get him
00:16:04
to talk and then as soon as he starts to talk if he starts to talk then we need to shape what he says we want him to
00:16:12
shape talk about we want to reinforce talk about guilt personal responsibility we withhold the
00:16:19
reinforcement for intellectualization the the mechanisms of denial third person stuff and
00:16:26
obfuscation you know distractions trying to get at what comes closer and closer to a personal confession or a revelation
00:16:34
of what he's done I don't think he would gladly take the fifth and and I think what you need
00:16:40
to do is avoid letting him get reinforcements for taking the fifth and that would be for example just
00:16:45
continuing on one question after another so he he gets a chance to say on advice
00:16:50
of councel I refuse to answer that question on the grounds at May tend to incriminate me and he loves that what a
00:16:56
performance wow you know one after the other and then it gets very dramatic you know because of its repetition under the
00:17:03
stress and conditions will it be possible for this attorney to condition him enough to just stick to that Fifth
00:17:08
Amendment no no I I don't think so he's going to want that attention I I think I
00:17:14
think that he prefers not to do that he he would prefer to try to charm manipulate be the center of attention
00:17:20
center stage in this testimony for the grand jury and there's nothing nothing that the attorney can tell him that
00:17:26
would convince him of that you've seen this I mean people absolutely self-destructive in such situations
00:17:31
because their personality will not allow them to be silent so I think that Kevin's position I I think he would like
00:17:38
that I think what he needs is well without confessing he needs to have and that's what I think he did in the
00:17:45
interview he came so close to confessing what had happened in this third person form but that's experation that's
00:17:52
expiation of sin that's Absolution of sin you gave him you absolved him of sin because you didn't stand up and say how
00:17:58
disgusting how absolutely unadulterated disgusting you you can sit here and talk
00:18:04
like that about murdering another human being and and expect me to sit here and say well Kevin you know I I want I want
00:18:10
you to be able to live with this you've got to [ __ ] he went away from this interview saying wow it's wonderful it's
00:18:17
really not that big a deal is it I mean here's another guy that was hey he didn't get angry he he didn't get upset
00:18:24
and Kevin told us that he wanted somebody to get upset he says through interview he says you're going to you're
00:18:30
going to have to pound on them you have to keep after him over and over and over
00:18:35
again what he was saying was hey I did an important thing and and you tell him it wasn't important it makes sense
00:18:44
that's not a criticism the way that you went about your interview no no no no no
00:18:48
and when I looked at it I said to Murray that you did every textbook thing that quanico ever thought of doing and I was
00:18:53
very impressed with what you did no had it worked we would have done the perfect
00:18:57
thing it didn't work so in indeed you have to go that way first you can't go from the way I'm
00:19:05
suggesting backwards you can't go from where I'm suggesting to nurture him no way I mean after you do this after you
00:19:12
maximize the crime you you can't minimize it you're called out but you can go from minimizing to to maximizing
00:19:19
he gave us the opening of it needed to be done over and over which gave us the format to change however once the
00:19:25
attorney stepped in it was minimize it don't talked to his client we we kind of got stuck on that the other thing is
00:19:33
that I I think that one needs to see behind one needs to see I'm starting out from the presumption that this suicidal
00:19:40
self-effacing self-deprecating self-loathing needs an account you can't just say oh oh oh that's true and accept
00:19:47
it as if it were the basis it's not the basis it it is in fact it needs an explanation I presume I'm not seeing
00:19:55
this kid but I presume he's he's not deformed he's not some monster no no he's just another ordinary kid
00:20:04
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offered by T-Mobile in Verizon May [Music] 2023 [Music] indeed he reports to him when he gets to
00:22:44
college suddenly some girl comes up to him after class and talks to him I I mean he doesn't present the image of
00:22:50
this loathing where nobody wants to talk to him nobody likes him Etc he wants to have shock value and in
00:22:57
all the his writings all his baloney is for it shock value it's designed to say well listen I want your attention I I
00:23:04
want importance I want to have an effect on you and that's what we use as the reinforcement for manipulation so my
00:23:12
explanation is that when I see something as virent as as the self-loathing I need
00:23:17
to reach for an explanation and the most typical explanation for that is it's uh
00:23:21
compensatory Behavior anything that's showy and a facade like that appearing showy in that form usually has an
00:23:29
explanation compensation it's it's the guy that's the homo Basher the homosexual Basher the super masculine
00:23:36
guy whose anxieties are because he believes himself not to be masculine so it's showy right it's it's a
00:23:41
demonstration more for an audience than for anything else we must not we must not give him the Applause must not be
00:23:49
the audience that he wants us to be we've got to reach underneath for the secret places that he hides and so the
00:23:55
trick and interrogation it seems to me whatever he wants to talk about we don't want to talk about whatever he
00:24:01
volunteers is not what we want to be we want to be where the secret place is you
00:24:06
know the the last thing he wants to say are are those things is that plan the issue of him wanting to be in control or
00:24:13
feeling in control oh there's there's no question about that too yes he's he's very manipulative very controlling but
00:24:20
in addition control is important for this kid because as I say and and I think this is intrinsic he's got impulse
00:24:27
disorder he's impulsive and and I believe that he says that he's scared of the capacities he knows are in him when
00:24:34
he loses control he can just flip out and and I think that's one of the reasons that makes him a very good
00:24:39
suspect because my impression of this crime scene was that it was an Impulse act okay have you talked to Jim again
00:24:47
since before you should talk to Jim and and maybe run some of this by him see what all the inputs you can get would be
00:24:53
useful have you talked to him yet to Jim Wright yeah no we haven't we haven't talked to him since the interview but we
00:25:00
haven't I can't believe you woke him up at 3:00 in the morning I I I just can't believe that well gee that's what he
00:25:06
gets for giving us his home phone number that's why you see what he said to you I
00:25:11
I I think you're tired I think you ought to go to bed let me throw one other thing into this we have a group of kids
00:25:16
that were involved with him that we keep in contact with regularly in fact Kevin
00:25:21
has been at a couple of parties over the last couple weekends Kevin always somehow brings up the issue of Lisa I
00:25:26
mean it's always brought up by Kevin in one instance he made some statements to the effect of it's too bad the police
00:25:32
never had any sort of suspect or any leads or anybody that they could look at for this is there any way we can play
00:25:39
into that or does that mean anything to us the general response is kids don't even want to talk about it they just say
00:25:45
yeah yeah yeah and leave them which is the other thing is that I think I think you need to we we need to look at this
00:25:52
in in the salacious pornographic interests that are that are being served Kevin has to be able to by bringing it
00:25:59
up able to recreate a moment of real power real significance real unusualness at the same time he continues to to get
00:26:08
this acceptance let me let me tell you an anecdote that that amazed me May Rous your intuition about how I'm trying to
00:26:15
explain this we've all had the experience of having a very Vivid active dream the kind of dream that's very
00:26:22
strong very Vivid and waking up and think to yourself wow what a dream that was and then as you try to hold on to
00:26:29
the details of that dream it gradually slips between your fingers and it and it just Fades as you the harder you try to
00:26:36
look at the content of the dream the more it fades and yet it was Vivid and and very real and very active and and
00:26:42
you sense that by contrast to those instances where you wake up and it's a it's in a vivid dream and you turn to
00:26:50
the significant other in your life your partner somebody or you you go to work and you say my Lord I had this dream
00:26:57
last night you wouldn't believe this dream I had and you're able to relate all those details in that dream I mean
00:27:02
one from the other now one account of that might be as follows that the content of the dream
00:27:10
that you cannot remember is anxiety producing and so you need not you don't want to think about it you want to put
00:27:15
it behind you so it slips through your fingers because it's too anxiety-provoking the content of the
00:27:22
dream that you have this urgency to tell somebody about is is content that you need to test against somebody else so
00:27:27
for example and typically the person you want to tell it to is the person that's
00:27:32
significant in the dream so you turn to your partner and you say I've had this incredible dream about and it was you
00:27:38
and and me and we were da da da da da da and and you go on with this and suppose
00:27:43
that the content just suppose the content of that dream is symbolically reflective of you killing this other
00:27:48
person so you go through this in gory detail but but symbolically it it doesn't sound obvious that you're
00:27:54
killing the person it's well you see I dreamt that you were on this cliff and and and then we were floating down and
00:28:00
and there were these rocks down below and here you are describing to the person how you're going to kill him you
00:28:05
know like uh well you're you're going to be splattered all over those rocks and then what what does the person say to
00:28:12
you they they don't say as I said you know stand up and say you son of a [ __ ] there's no way in the world I'm going to
00:28:17
sit here and have somebody who dreams like that and have any respect for such a person or even any affection no now
00:28:24
now what did they say oh you have such a wonderful imagination oh wow isn't that
00:28:28
wonderful that's that's really interesting isn't it I mean here's the person you just said to them I'm going
00:28:33
to kill you saying isn't that wonderful you're just a marvelous person and so you have uh expiated the sin of these
00:28:40
desires to hurt the other person by the other person accepting them and continuing to say you're a nice person
00:28:47
you're okay well every time Kevin raises this and and doesn't have people get up
00:28:52
and shun him he successfully establishes the point that what he did was was not so bad after all well what would happen
00:29:01
if they did what do you think his reaction would be if they shunned him and got real upset about it well I think
00:29:06
he'd have to try to convince them I I I think that that you know he was not the person that he was not worthy of their
00:29:12
loathing while at the same time believing that he was and indeed might become suicidal at that point so that he
00:29:19
could further demonstrate that he was repentant that he really didn't enjoy having killed her dick asks he wrote me
00:29:26
why are why are writing me a note just jump in here whe whether or not he would admit to another kid under any
00:29:32
circumstances I think he could I think he definitely could uh for its shock value for its convincing the the person
00:29:40
that that's significant I think that your account of his doing this at parties is almost tan
00:29:44
amount to that it is of the same character of skirting the confession that he did with you doing this thing in
00:29:50
the third person well the kids talk about all the angry things they'd like to tell Kevin but they're kind of afraid
00:29:55
to tell him because they don't know how he's going to react oh I'd advise them just the
00:30:01
[Music] opposite even when police detectives tried to Clockwork Orange Kevin he never
00:30:19
gave them a confession and here is where the tragedy is compounded the prosecutor
00:30:25
assigned to the case and K hoga County ends up being Carmen Marino nobody knows it back then but eventually Marino would
00:30:34
get in a lot of trouble for misconduct and other murder cases he did things like withhold evidence from defense
00:30:42
attorneys and allowing witnesses to lie on the stand what Marino did wrong was go to the psychiatric unit where Kevin
00:30:51
young was treated for stress after being interrogated by police and got a female
00:30:56
patient to say Kevin had confessed to her in the hospital off that testimony from a mental patient Marino got an
00:31:04
indictment against Kevin for Lisa's murder the case went to trial on June 28th 1993 it was one of the first trials to
00:31:14
be broadcast on court TV a trial of his peers acquitted Kevin Young on July 21st in the eyes of the law Kevin young
00:31:25
was not guilty of the murder of police of it but in Shaker Heights that wasn't good enough they had been told by their
00:31:32
trusted police detectives that this was the guy who did it and to this day the majority of people who lived through the
00:31:40
ordeal still believe Kevin got away with murder life was not kind to Kevin young
00:31:47
because of the publicity of the case he found it difficult to find a date all they had to do was Google his name he
00:31:55
moved back in with his parents parents and painted houses around town eventually he got his own efficiency
00:32:02
apartment on the east side he died at the age of 44 in February of 2017 he maintained his innocence to that
00:32:13
day buried in the police files obtained from Shaker Heights are a few letters that Dan dford wrote to Lisa puit when
00:32:21
he was in psychiatric care Dan writes quote I tried to kill myself I need out of here this place has [ __ ] me up
00:32:31
after I get out give me some time to return to normal I don't want you or I to make any poor decisions because of
00:32:39
this place and another note Dan warns Lisa quote someday I'll go too far and I'll do something very bad and you'll
00:32:49
yell at me and be serious and I won't be able to handle it but you can't let me get away with murder I look at you and I
00:32:58
see what I've done to you I'm a bad influence on people Chris is another example of this and believe it or not I
00:33:07
think I've made Kevin worse than he already was later he goes on to write quote I want to poke your eyes out with
00:33:16
my favorite pocket knife [Music] [Music] the Angie's List you know and trust is now Angie and we're so much more than
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