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[Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] welcome welcome welcome what is up what
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is up with you what's up with that what's up with that that's the greatest talk show of
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all time I think uh yeah a little behind the scenes when it comes to uh off the Record or not even off the Record off
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the Record off the Record behind the scenes True Crime garage sometimes when we're discussing these cases they get a
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little heavy and uh gets me down a little bit so I'll start I we get on the YouTube we get on that YouTube and we
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start watching some funny stuff and uh well I think the the especially the what's up with that skit on Saturday
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live always like it's if anybody's familiar with it it's it there's no way it can't put you in a good mood like it
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it just it puts a smile on my face immediately as soon as I think of I never know that guy's name the the guy
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that's pretending Ken Williams I don't think that's right might not be right no but it's it's also similar to
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the scene and super bad when he's singing These Eyes yeah these eyes are crying These Eyes
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going was you I mean every time I'd be working at the bank and just get down on life I just put that on crack up and
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then I'd be laughing for about an hour afterwards thinking about about it so yeah what's up with that what's up with
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that so a couple weeks ago I I believe we talked about the Steven Avery case right and more so the documentary Making
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a murderer well making a murderer too specifically um you well no no we didn't actually talk about to it oh we didn't
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it really was more that I binge watch the first one okay and then I was reading a lot of these um papers that
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were being submitted by Stephen's new lawyer uh zelner Katherine zelner which is
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basically the main character in making a murderer too which I haven't I didn't see at that point right and I was kind
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of speculating on what I thought part two was going to be about talking about a lot of the allegations that were made
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against Ryan hillas oh you're you're no you're right because you and I have actually talked making a murder to
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off the Record actually off the Record over the phone we should say um a couple that's going to be our third show over
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the phone over the phone we've talked making a murder or two a couple times over the phone since and so I'm getting
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a little confused as to all the conversations we've had but you are exactly right because we talked here
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making a murder the week before the second one was coming out mhm CU I think it came out on the 18th or the 19th of
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OCT October which would have been a Friday right what did you do did you try to binge the whole thing so basically I
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binged making a murder and then a week later I was binging uh part two which was kind of interesting and I think on
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that show I stated that Brendan was released which is not true and I don't know why I I don't even know why I said
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that because I I I had no I remember it was there was a lot of posts saying that he was going to be
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released uh once you start watching H spoiler alert turn off your turn off your um podcast if you haven't seen part
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two but he has not been released and I don't know why I said he had been released they did talk about him being
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released um yeah there was a lot of news reports saying that he was going to be released and then he wasn't and I think
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at one point you actually agree agreed with me oh yeah yeah he's been released yeah I for some reason I thought that um
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either he had been released or he was granted a second trial and maybe the second trial is more correct than well
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obviously he's not been released so we know that's not correct well it's really interesting about this case again one
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when you go into it never watching it for two years because I I knew a lot about the case or I thought I knew a lot
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about the case and basically the way everything was reported I mean you have a mountain of evidence against this guy
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this guy seems 100% guilty then you watch the first one and again now people can say this is skewed that this is you
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know just going based off of the you know watching the trial Through The defense's Eyes yeah but they did give
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some chances to the prosecution I think once you watch that you realize yes there's some evidence
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but how did they get this evidence and things start looking a little shady as far as police work
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prosecution and really what I think their point was was can you get a fair trial if you don't have money well what
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was interesting was Steven was awarded a settlement as far as his wrongful conviction so he actually had money to
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fight his case his nephew Brendan did not have money and we saw how well that went for him uh I think that is a case
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that could have easily been won then obviously um it wasn't won he's Behind Bars and now you know now it's
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this whole tough process to get him out of jail which is almost impossible but it's like if you're going to make it
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like I said before if you're going to make it impossible for somebody to get out or nearly impossible make sure you
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put the right person there you know when you have somebody that denied being involved over 70 some times and then you
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take their confession I just I I this is a practice that doesn't make any sense to me you denied it 70 some sometimes
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and then you started confessing and now we're going to put you in jail for that I mean frankly just
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ridiculous well I'll tell you what and I'm not going to fake it Captain but I have actually not finished season two
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yet yeah at some point you started watching but you got mad about something well actually okay so three things have
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happened I've given it a good try okay and I will complete it I will finish it uh oh yes it will be mine um so the
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first night it came out I was kind of stoked because I was like I'm going to watch a movie and then I'm I'm going to
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do one or two episodes of uh making a murder or two and I think I got either halfway through the second episode or
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maybe I made it into a third episode yeah and I got angry and it it was a combination of alcohol and anger like
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right and probably sleepiness so you know I had the the the trifold the tribunal going on there right now tired
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drunk and angry and the thing that made me angry was there were Parts where and forgive me if I got this wrong I already
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disclaimed I already told you I was drunk right um there were Parts I think in episode 2 or three where some people
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were were picketing outside of one of the cour houses right and I saw the hallback family like her parents and it
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freaking broke my heart man like it made me and look should we have the right person
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behind bars absolutely nobody's arguing that situation you know we're not going to try to make a family feel better just
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by locking any old person up right but the thing that really I really had trouble with especially in that moment
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sitting on my couch just watching just being a casual Observer was these poor people not only did they lose their uh
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intelligent driven professional beautiful young daughter who was you know just coming into adult life and and
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you know probably just a year or two out from setting off on her own completely but they lost her and now
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this this thing just doesn't seem to end you know it's like there was a trial that they had to sit through and I and I
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tell you what there two trials yeah and a lot of these victims families will tell you you know it's horrible that our
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our our son daughter brother sister mother father was murdered taken away from us but it was it was brutal to sit
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through the trial and then they have to sit through two trials and then essentially making a murder the first
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season wi which is like what took like 9 10 years to film mhm so once that comes
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out it's like now there's a whole TV trial a whole Netflix trial going on it's like a third trial for these poor
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people right and this this case became a real Hot Topic and and whether you thought he was innocent or guilty there
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was arguments on both sides and and that is really kind of what stem the conversation and and like you
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said now you have this conversation that's happening worldwide and it's almost like the
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events are happening all over again and you've known me longer than most and I think you back me up on stating this
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that I'm I'm always have been a backer for freedom of speech a backer for uh the right to assembly you know so I
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don't want to I don't want to say hey the picketing really pissed me off or these people have no right to shout
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their chance or hold their signs I don't want to say that at all it just I think it could have been done a
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little more with with respect to the victim's family regardless regardless of who
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murdered her they are the victim's family right the what's happening though is that you're you're having a situation
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where people feel so adamant about his innocence that they're going to stand outside and pick
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it and if you feel that adamant really essentially you're going okay look we understand that you're daughter died but
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we have this guy that is losing his life there should not be a second life lost right and and so I I don't know I mean
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it's it's like it's a touch touchy thing and I think when um when the filmmakers
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are asked you know about you know the first season not having her story that much involved in the telling of their
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documentary I mean they come out they're honest they said look we we gave them every opportunity to be involved MH and
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they didn't and this time there was uh I believe a friend and maybe a couple other people that were involved that
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gave them some pictures and some videos and and they get to talk about her a little bit more but
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um you know I think it's it's really about trying to find the truth and it's interesting to me CU I I really want to
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know one has the family seen these documentaries has this persuaded them at all um
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because we've seen this with other documentaries where they're calling for the heads of the West Memphis 3 and then
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by the second or Not by the second but by the third documentary they're coming out saying hey we believe these kids are
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innocent and now we need to find the real killer Yeah well yeah that's a good question and I would I would wager that
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probably some have some haven't that that's what my gut says because you know there's got to be some people in the
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family that are saying I'm not watching that regardless because I I've seen maybe I've read an article or I've heard
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the chatter and the chatter seems to be that they're trying to paint a picture of Stephen Avery being innocent now I
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tell you what the the second season to me so and I will finish it like I said I've sat down and watched a couple more
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episodes since that night that I got angry Well here here's what it's really good for I mean by following Katherine
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zelner you really get to understand what the appeal process looks like and how the lawyers have to go about it I mean
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she breaks it down into sections I need to do this and then after I do that we're going to have to do this and
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what's really interesting about her one she is she is definitely a badass and she's definitely very
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intelligent now what I don't know very intelligent is is a is correct it might be an understat right I think extremely
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intelligent yeah or just maybe she's just really extremely intelligent in this one area I don't know but but like
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you said badass and for me I was going to say I think the second season is quite a bit slower to me than the first
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season and I think that might be because there's not as many aha moments like the
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first season had well actually I think there's more a moments in this one it's just the stuff in between I think the
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first documentary when you would see his mother sitting alone at the table like you're willing to kind of sit through
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that uh the second time around you're like okay we've seen this scene before move on right let's let's I mean they
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could have cut it down I think it was 10 parts or whatever it was I mean they could probably cut it down to six um and
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there's already talks that there's going to be a maker and a murder three mhm and
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but one one of the things I really liked about her and I don't think it's been talked about enough is is I actually
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don't think that she really gives a [ __ ] about her client when she's taking a case and what I mean by that is I think
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she gets wrapped up in the case and then she want and then she wants to know what
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happened so well why not take the case right because if you take the case you're going to find out really quickly
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whether or not you think stepen did did it or not yeah and then after she did her initial testing and her initial
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interviews and all that stuff she comes out on the other side and goes okay this
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guy I believe is innocent so now I need to find the truth and I actually think she's more interested in finding the
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truth than she is getting this guy out of jail and that I actually applaud her for that because I just think that's
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something that everybody law enforcement prosecutors detectives defense attorneys
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that's they should be focusing on is the truth and and and as much as we can sit
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there and say these Piers you know are harmful to the family of Teresa well so are the prosecutors if they're getting
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it wrong so are the detectives if they're doing something unethical to get evidence MH so I mean I think there were
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again spoiler alert there's some pieces of evidence that are very interesting like once you get to the mapping of the
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scent dogs and the caver dogs all the hits that were made were not on the stepen Avery property were not on the
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Avery uh junkyard basically is what it is and it's all on this other property behind the Aver's property and that to
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me is one it just proves again the prosecution went into the case saying this is how the how the murder took
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place it is Def not how the murder took place she was not killed in that room I can say that with 100% certainty why
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can't I say that there's no DNA evidence that she was actually in the trailer there's no blood evidence that she was
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in the trailer so if you're going to tell me that she was raped and murdered in his bedroom well where's the evidence
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of it so and they kind of changed that story when they were at trial anyways and then they said well that didn't it
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didn't happen there it happened in the garage well interesting thing about the garage
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is there's bullets everywhere they found bullets everywhere on this property why
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because the person that was the landlord of the trailer shot 3,000 to 5,000 bullets and then they they do these
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ballistic tests and they can if you shoot a bullet through the garage it looks exactly like the bullet that they
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claim killed Teresa and what's interesting is there's no bone fragment on the on the the
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bullet there's no blood on the bullet there's something red it's called Paint there's no DNA evidence well there is
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DNA evidence but what's really strange is when they're they're Lo they're showing two bullets side by side they
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they they walk you through this test what's interesting these bullets look exactly the same except for one has a
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waxy film all over it and the guy doing the test is like just never seen that doesn't make a lot
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of sense to me so we have Teresa's DNA evidence on this bullet and then you find out that there's a list of items
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that they collected from Teresa's house Combs toothbrushes chapstick mhm and there's
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this huge list and what is funny to me is where did they take these pieces of things from Teresa's house did they take
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it to the police station no did they take it to some crime lab no they took it to the Avery auto
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junkyard now why would you take that stuff while you're doing a search that is just unethical to me
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right so now you have this bullet that you're trying to tell me was used to kill this girl and there's no evidence
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of it and if there is DNA evidence well it doesn't take a rocket science doesn't
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take a rocket scientist to make the leap that possibly you took that ChapStick and rubbed it all over that bullet MH
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and there's and even if you didn't you can't you should not and cannot bring items of evidentiary value that
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could have DNA or anything else on hairs fibers anything else on them to to the crime scene to what you claim to be the
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crime scene right and these are items that you went to her house knowing that you're trying to collect DNA evidence
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then you bring it back here it's ridiculous and the other thing too is it's logic people with these cases what
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I'm so sick of is when I'm getting feedback from individuals where it's like logic goes all out the window look
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explain to me a better way that there becomes a waxy substance all over our bullet
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and a scientist that studies ballistics says I don't I don't know I've never seen this before could
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chapstick be the reason for that yes could be now is there another reason possibly but by watching these things
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and and doing the research on what evidence they have I can't come up with another explanation off the top of my
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head so logic tells me that there's something fishy here the other thing too is when you have a key that is
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supposedly trees's key that they find days later after they didn't find it and it only has Stephen
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Avery's DNA evidence on it what did he do did he clean the did he clean the key off MH and wipe all of her DNA away I
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mean we're talking about a key that has little cracks and cices you'd have to get in there to make sure you clean all
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those it's stuff like that that just doesn't add up or the fact that the cadav dogs or the scent dogs do not hit
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on the property I mean they'll hit on like bordering bordering areas of the property but the main areas that they
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hit is where Bobby dassie claims to be hunting and they also found this pelvic bone the and this is the stuff that
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drives me nuts you find this pelvic bone but you can't prove that it's hers I mean that that stuff is strange to me
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and and not just just on the def not whether or not he's guilty or Innocent but just on the idea that we have this
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evidence and we can't prove what it's from you know is it what was the size of the item though I mean it was relatively
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small but had the same markings of the bones that they found in the fire pit but
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again this barrel uh you probably haven't seen this part but there's this Barrel um so they think there was a one
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burn burn sight and that would have been down where Bobby was saying that he was
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hunting so they claimed that there was a burn sight then they think at some point
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that there was these big metal barrels that they think they somebody put the remains because the body wasn't burning
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hot enough that they took the remains and they put it into one of these barrels and then they burn longer right
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in the barrel and then from from there they took the barrel put the rest of the room remains into the fire pit behind
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Steven Avery's house now if you would have told me this before I watched both the documentaries I'd go you're full of
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[ __ ] that didn't happen but when they can scientifically prove that there was a burn here burn in the barrel burn you
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know uh I don't know if they can prove that there was that any of the remains were actually burned from the fire pit
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also when you do one of these when you have a fire pit and you're going to collect the evidence of
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that you take picture upon picture and there's no pictures taken by law enforcement now again I don't want to
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beat beat the drum of law enforcement they have a million things to do they're going to get a couple things wrong
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but it's just weird stuff like where they they they check these barrels for example and there's no human remains
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found there's no bones found and then 3 days later they check it again and all of a sudden they have
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remains they have bones it's like that stuff is what drives me nuts how how can you check something on a
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Wednesday and then on a Saturday you check it again and now you found something mhm like too many times of
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that that's very fishy and I really thought that part two was going to go after this Ryan
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hos I mean interesting stuff like I said before he had bruising on his right hand
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uh the way Katherine zelner believes that the crime happened was somebody was striking her uh you know behind the SUV
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that the SUV's door would be open the rav four and so could somebody get bruising on their hand by using a weapon
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like that definitely then you have claw marks on his left hand that's suspicious
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and the other thing what kind of weapon sorry um the they're saying you know something like a hammer or a you know
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like a blunt object with the rear RAV four door open yeah because of the way the blood uh where they found blood yeah
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and the castoff there's the cast off and the way they believe it now look I don't
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know I mean that could they could be wrong on that the other weird thing about Ryan hos
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is he has her day he has her planner he has at least a page of her planner mhm now now if if you believe anybody's
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story on how this happened she would have had her planner with her so how he got this planner and this information is
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extremely odd um and maybe there's a logical explanation maybe when he was searching
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and they found the vehicle maybe he took the planner I mean this guy's lawyered up and he's not talking to anybody but I
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really thought that part two was going to be really going after this Ryan hos guy and he was also involved in the
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search just like I said on the last episode he was on I believe I said that if we're repeating anything it's because
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we just have these long conversations and then we just sent them out to the universal no you you did talk about the
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search But but so but but he was searching the property with In Cahoots with law enforcement they're not finding
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stuff one day two days later finding something in the same spot they looked this guy has access to the property and
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then then the other thing about it too is like uh there was eyewitness that claims that they saw the Rav 4 driving
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with a white Jeep um there's there's that but there's also what I said before when they're doing
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these searches you have to check in and there are several times that Ryan hos did not check in so he didn't it that
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seems suspicious and also when people ask you if if you're doing parts of the search and you state no but you actually
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are a part of the search you're lying uh I so that's where I thought they're going to take this but I actually again
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what's so interesting about Katherine zelner I don't think she cares about anything I think she only cares about
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the truth and that's it and I think she even if she loses a case I don't even know how much she cares if she loses the
00:26:46
case I think the loss to her is if she doesn't know how this took place and who was responsible for it and so I really
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thought again like I said to go out after Ryan but this they really go after Bobby dassy and uh Scott which would be
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Scott would be the stepfather of the dassy boys now Brendan's in jail for falsely confessing to the crime I
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believe he falsely confessed but you have his brother Bobby dassie and Bobby there's just certain things you
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know when I watched the first part one what stuck out like a sore th is when you see this
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ex-boyfriend acting weird gumping during interviews that stuck out like a sore thumb when I'm
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watching part two The Stepfather starts talking about this has been hard on the whole family there's Vic there's victims
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upon victims here you have the victim of you know tce is the victim if you're wrongfully convicted of something you're
00:27:55
a victim the family's become victim VI IMS the friends become victims so Scott is kind of talking
00:28:01
about that saying man you know our whole family's been affected by this but nobody more so than Bobby and then at
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this point Bobby has never visited his brother now his brother's slow right that's probably the best word to
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use and you believe that he didn't commit the crime he denied it over 70 some times
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and youve never once visited your brother in prison that's what that's what they
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state that he he believes that he's innocent or or do all we know is that he's not visited the brother all we know
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is that this has hit him really hard he's really depressed about it so he's so upset about it that he has never
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visited his brother and prison and for whatever reason that stuck out as like a sore thumb and
00:28:58
we I'm going to try to pull it up um we can kind of talk about something else as
00:29:02
I I try to pull it up because I don't want to spend uh my my final review on it is it's a little slower than the
00:29:09
first one takes a little bit little more work to get through but you'll have a way better
00:29:17
understanding I feel like I I went through a class on how the appeal process works how difficult it is um but
00:29:25
also you I think zel is so interesting to watch and just the fact that she's interested in the truth um I think
00:29:35
is so interesting so well the thing that I like and like I said I I haven't found the so far the second series to be
00:29:46
as entertaining as the first series now I should throw this out there I don't seem to share the popular opinion in
00:29:55
this case and maybe I will at some point but I don't yet and I haven't all along um so I'm not as fired up about it
00:30:05
as some are now I will say this the person carrying the show for me the entertainment factor for me is Kathleen
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zelner I mean she's she's brilliant to watch uh she's tactful smart and the thing that that I like about Kathleen
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zelner so much is it seems and I don't know for certain cuz I haven't finished the second series but
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it seems like like just what you said she's more concerned about the truth than anything else but not only like you
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know I've praised other defense attorneys on this show before stating hey look it it's really truly their job
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to make you at the end of the day question the guilt of their client and it seems like zelner not only will make
00:30:54
you question the guilt of Steven Avery it seems to me like she is dead set on going going after someone not only
00:31:02
proving not only suggesting or proving that he might be innocent and not guilty but also pointing the finger as to who
00:31:10
done it you know or or leading you to a better suspect or at least somebody that
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has as much evidence as her client I right but I think if you watch the rest of two I mean it's not at least she like
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she says no no no matter what we're doing she said we're we're looking for evidence right if we're going to appeal
00:31:33
something in court today we're still looking for evidence then you get on these stupid sites I'm I just pulled
00:31:39
this up I'm trying to look for Bobby dass's uh Google searches but it's it's stuff like this where it goes you have
00:31:48
to weigh the state's motive with Bobby's motive again this idea that the cops killed her then planted all all the
00:31:55
evidence says stuff like Bobby couldn't get a key uh if Bobby followed trees off the
00:32:03
property he could get her key Bobby didn't plant the bullet fragment no he didn't but again I've said this before
00:32:14
Stephen could be guilty and the police planted evidence right he doesn't have to be
00:32:22
innocent for them to plant the evidence it could be both but again in this case well if Bobby did it the police could
00:32:33
have still planted evidence to try to get a conviction on Stephen Avery but what I okay we covered a case Kim wall
00:32:44
right that is invited onto the Submarine by this lunatic mhm he might be very smart he might be an
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inventor but he is a lunatic oh there's smart and dumb evil out there he yeah no
00:33:00
this is beyond dumb evil this is this is the worst kind of evil this is smart evil to me he was smart enough to get
00:33:09
this intelligent person onto the the submarine but this person had such a sickness with what they were searching
00:33:18
and what it took for them to be sexually gratified however you want to look at it but in that case the
00:33:27
searches get darker and darker and darker throughout the years and what happened we have a dismemberment and I
00:33:35
think when you have a dismemberment of the victim you're talking about a whole another level of sick I think the the
00:33:44
motive becomes sexual becomes you know also their motive is uh to be to to rape to torture and then the
00:33:58
dismemberment I think that is what their motive is and when you look at some of the stuff that Bobby dassi is searching
00:34:08
on his um on Google it's pretty clear that you're dealing with a a very sick individual well somebody that has and
00:34:21
that and unfortunately you know you there's often that question of what what are some similar traits that you
00:34:29
can find in serial killers there's always that question people always want to know that now one similar trait then
00:34:37
they don't all share all the same traits you can't just look at a person and and
00:34:42
observe them for a short period of time and and figure out if they are are a serial killer or have the potential to
00:34:49
be one uh just by looking at a brief window into their life you can't do it but what I can say this is is this that
00:34:57
the ones that have been honest or upfront with a lot of their childhood their teenage years and
00:35:07
their adulthood and have confessed to crimes murders and and even you know some of
00:35:14
the worst atrocities we've we we have discussed on the show one thing a lot of them will say is that at some point in
00:35:22
their life violence and sexual fantasy got all wrapped up in to one right and at some point the sexual fantasy didn't
00:35:32
exist without violence and violence didn't exist for them without sexual fantasy they all become one at some
00:35:39
point and Peter mson the guy from um the submarine who killed Kim wall he I believe was probably a Serial murder in
00:35:50
the making right that was we were lucky unfortunately for Kim she was the first victim I believe um but you know and I
00:36:01
don't I don't know with him you know cuz all of their their sexual violent fantasies are different they are unique
00:36:08
to them I don't know that dismemberment is a is a sexual fantasy for all of them
00:36:15
because dismemberment also is a means of concealing what you've done or hiding the body which may have been the case
00:36:22
with Kim wall we can't be certain we there's no way for us to know exactly what pet Madson
00:36:28
thinks um and maybe in Teresa hallback's case I think I mean you you have some interesting things that this individual
00:36:37
was searching for on his computer um but hers could be the same thing it could be that could be part of
00:36:45
the violent murder sex fantasy or it's you know you have the the murder sex fantasy and then the dismemberment as
00:36:54
just a means of concealing the body yeah and or in this case is it framing somebody you know well and you had this
00:37:04
um CD ROM with all this information on it and basically when you go to trial you go through points of evidence and if
00:37:14
you have something and I have something and we both have knowledge of it but we don't think that it matters to the case
00:37:21
that I will agree not to bring it up if you agree not to bring it up right and they do that so your your your right to
00:37:27
a speedy trial now in this case what the prosecution did was kind of lump this all together they claimed that it was
00:37:36
the dassi family computer again here here's my issue is when you start lying you have internet
00:37:42
at the time the authorities know you have internet at the time when the mother of Bobby and Brendan dassy is
00:37:49
lying and saying we didn't have internet at the time we didn't have a computer at
00:37:54
the time well if you didn't then why would law enforcement seize information off your computer that's not how it
00:38:01
works you had one so they seized the information off of it he was looking up stuff and and in the documentary you'll
00:38:10
see a list and they'll go through it and I slowed it down just to look at some of
00:38:15
the stuff but not only was he watching violent porn he was watching women being tortured but he was also downloading
00:38:25
these images and it seemed to get darker and darker I mean I I don't want to say these things out loud but
00:38:36
once you see some of the list I'm trying to actually find the list but I can't find it
00:38:42
on I just found it the other day and for whatever reason I cannot nope that's not it either um but
00:38:54
some of the the searches that he did was just horrifying horrifying is the only way to
00:39:01
put it it's stuff that you would never think to search yourself but on top of that you would never think that anybody
00:39:08
else would bother to search for those things or even have any desar decapitated women or drowned women uh
00:39:17
deceased women drowned women um drowned girl drowned girl nude drowned [ __ ] fast car accident gun to head uh knife
00:39:31
goes through Skin Rotten girl now that's just a list that's just a couple right there there could there's
00:39:41
likely more right if look if you're searching for drowned girl nude you got some
00:39:51
problems use a piece of [ __ ] use a horrible piece of [ __ ] in the making now why wouldn't you go visit your
00:40:00
brother maybe because you committed the crime and now your slow brother is in jail because of this he's in prison he's
00:40:10
wasting his life away because of a horrible thing you did you know and then the can they prove
00:40:18
that it's his computer yeah I mean cuz I mean if it if it was the family computer I mean
00:40:25
technically BR could have been looking up some of this stuff right or or or a whole bunch of people were looking up
00:40:33
things and making the list you know what I mean like right maybe somebody's looking up a few different things and
00:40:38
somebody else is looking up a few of these other things that that you mentioned but the the thing that's crazy
00:40:44
too Captain is well I just want to stick on this point for a second though we have situations where Scott the the
00:40:52
stepfather has lied and we know that for certain and we same thing with Bobby dassi the same thing there's little
00:41:01
parts of his story that don't line up what he told police and then what he told on the stand they don't line up to
00:41:08
make any logical sense and so look I'm not saying he he he's the murderer what I'm saying is it's interesting that
00:41:16
we're looking into him they're to try to find who the real killer is what I also
00:41:22
find interesting is there's a phone call between um Stephen and his sister and she's gone you need to tell them to stop
00:41:31
and what this [ __ ] is doing okay what she is doing is she says multiple times on this call you're going to end up with
00:41:40
a dead sister and what and this is the fact that you would even threaten that makes you a horrible person
00:41:51
basically what she's saying is you tell zelar zelner sorry zelar from from Pluto
00:42:00
um you tell zelner to stop going after my family basically telling her just look
00:42:08
somewhere else don't look at us right don't try to find the truth and what does Stephen Avery say over and over on
00:42:15
the phone he says hey she's just going to go where the evidence takes her she goes oh so my my my life can be
00:42:24
ruined blah blah blah right right and at some point Stephen's like well that's that's what happens you know
00:42:34
why was he searching this stuff on the internet now whether you think he's guilty or innocent one of the things I
00:42:41
find interesting about Stephen Avery is he's confessed to a bunch of his crimes that he's been caught for there's two
00:42:47
crimes that he's never confessed to one that he was wrongfully in prison for and
00:42:51
this one I find that fascinating um but to be fair to to make that statement completely Apples to
00:43:00
Apples I'm just saying I'm just saying it's interesting to me I'm not saying that I it makes me believe him anymore
00:43:07
I'm just saying I just find that interesting no it's interesting but I mean to be to those of the people there
00:43:13
are people listening to this that don't know exactly what we're talking about and so to to be fair and make that
00:43:21
statement Apples to Apples those are none of those crimes are rape or murder right
00:43:27
CRI and there they nothing near they're nowhere near the the end of the spectrum where you would find rape
00:43:33
and murder yeah yeah and uh yeah and look again you know to play Devil's Advocate I mean Bobby could have
00:43:44
tried to tell him what he knew he was also pretty young at the time could he misspeak when he talked to the police
00:43:50
could he misspoke a little bit when he talked on the stand possibly that doesn't mean he's necessarily a liar
00:43:57
again are these searches his maybe they're not his maybe they're Scotts there's somebody in the house that's searching
00:44:05
that maybe it's Brendan's maybe Brendan has me fooled maybe he denied it 70 sometimes and then finally he told the
00:44:12
truth um do they have a date did they ever put include a date of when that those searches occurred so um was it
00:44:20
before and after the killing I'm not for sure I think it was mainly before because you would you're talking about
00:44:30
the this stuff is seized pretty quickly so it would have probably just been before the murder but what's interesting
00:44:38
too so he's on the phone Stephen Avery's on the phone with his sister and they're
00:44:42
going back and forth and Stephen's not really raising his voice he's just saying hey we're going to you know
00:44:48
Katherine's trying to get to the truth wherever the evidence takes her she's going to go and she's going to keep
00:44:54
trying to find the truth and if and if your son has nothing to hide she shouldn't be worried about this right
00:45:00
cuz she's going to find the truth and then she keeps on bringing up stuff he goes well I don't know cuz I didn't do
00:45:05
it then all of a sudden Scott comes on in the background yelling screaming and at some
00:45:15
point he's like I'll put you in the ground he's making death threats you have a guy that's accused of torturing
00:45:24
raping and murdering by strangulation slash slitting the throat slash shooting in the head that's what he's convicted
00:45:34
of and this guy doesn't raise his voice once the guy starts saying hey we're going to put you in the
00:45:41
ground step doesn't raise his voice now for some people they would go who who cares man I think there there's
00:45:50
little points that I think people casually Miss and I think that's a big deal you know um but Stephen is making a
00:46:01
case for his innocence and always aware that his conversations are being recorded right but they also know that
00:46:13
their conversations are being recorded as well right but they they have nothing to prove he does well but that's what's
00:46:21
also interesting to me because two people are behind bars for a murder and you start pointing the finger
00:46:30
at me maybe I did it right mhm should I get nervous you got a long ways to go you
00:46:39
can't try me for something when there's two people behind bars mhm they have to get out first doesn't even look like
00:46:46
they're ever getting out so why would I be nervous why would I be trying to prove
00:46:53
something the person that's trying to Pro prove something is the one that starts talking the one that starts
00:46:58
defending themselves Stephen Avery wasn't defending himself on the call what he was saying was zard is trying to
00:47:06
get to the truth wherever the evidence takes her that's where the it'll be the truth right and then you have another
00:47:13
individual on the phone that starts screaming starts shouting starts stating his case why waste your time you don't
00:47:22
need to State your case you got two people in jail for this crime so what that they're throwing a little
00:47:28
shade on your name what does it matter MH your life's already messed up anyways you're you know what I mean I just think
00:47:36
um well there's one thing to say a little shade what I'm saying it's it's telling it's like yes do you want to
00:47:44
be do you want any evidence or any conversation saying hey it could have been could have been
00:47:52
you Scott could have been you Bobby MH no you don't want that obviously but you're going to get that when you lived
00:47:59
on the property so and I'm sure they got it before so I just find it funny that you
00:48:07
have somebody you know acting a fool you know when he doesn't have to Pro like you said he doesn't have to
00:48:15
prove anything the one that needs to try to prove their innocence is the guy that's saying hey let the evidence tells
00:48:22
tell us what happened mhm and I find that I just find it interesting I'm not saying it makes me lean towards innocent
00:48:29
or guilty or whatever but I'm just saying because a lot of people out there like they want to know do you find him
00:48:36
innocent or guilty what's wrong with saying I don't know you know oh there's there's nothing wrong with that and
00:48:42
here's the other thing too um you know I obviously I lean toward him being guilty
00:48:49
and and probably in In fairness to the documentary I I leaned further that way before um I do think like like you there
00:49:04
are some interesting things in season 2 that look there there's questions that have been raised all along since since
00:49:12
this trial the original trial or the second trial actually I don't I don't think if I remember correctly now mind
00:49:19
you again I apologize I watched the first one when it came out so it's been a long time and I've not Revisited the
00:49:25
uh first series but if I remember correctly the first trial didn't go Avery's way at all and
00:49:33
it wasn't until the second trial that there was really some questions being presented uh that may have favored Avery
00:49:41
rather than the state's Theory the state's case yeah well again when the state starts off with the idea and then
00:49:50
Midway through the trial changes it it's kind of something's wrong with that theory
00:49:55
you didn't you didn't have you didn't have anything right before you started the trial you know so now you're just
00:50:02
changing your story I mean some of the stuff that the prosecution did I mean they should all have been fired for it
00:50:09
you can't go out there you have no evidence if she was raped or tortured you have no evidence of this and you're
00:50:16
going to go out on TV and start saying that this is what happen I mean you want to talk about you
00:50:22
want talk is that right though because you do have the confession of dassie right but anybody
00:50:33
with I even think with the level of intelligence that Brendan dassi has with that level of intelligence you would be
00:50:42
able to understand that that confession is nothing but a bunch of horeshit and I'd argue with anybody about that one
00:50:50
there's no piece of evidence no I know I know but what I'm just I'm playing the other side side of the fence no I
00:50:56
understand that but all I'm stating is you say there's no evidence that there was a rape or a torture but what I'm
00:51:03
saying is they but in their possession they hold a uh confession that states that that that was the
00:51:11
case but no evidence of it so we have a confession I mean one of your jobs is when but the confession is the evidence
00:51:20
no no the that the you're that's heay that's here pH you're stating physical evidence is
00:51:28
you you to be clear you should say physical evidence because when you say there's no evidence here's there is you
00:51:35
have a confession right right you have an eyewitness statement saying that there was rape and torture right which
00:51:41
any statement that you receive is going to be hearsay until you can back any of it up but guess what you can't back any
00:51:47
of it up because you you have a guy saying that her her feet were bound with uh shackles metal shackles no evidence
00:51:55
of this her arms were uh tied with rope no evidence of this her throat was slit no evidence of this there's blood
00:52:06
everywhere no evidence of this not we don't even have evidence we don't even have DNA evidence that she was in the
00:52:12
trailer so therefore everything he said was here say because you can't back it up and that that's my issue so yeah I
00:52:20
mean if you want to say that's evidence my next thing would say well that would be evidence if you could
00:52:27
prove what he was saying was correct and you and they C it and then on top of that all that information that was given
00:52:35
was given to him in the confession and then he had to sit around and guess what they want I mean where what did he do
00:52:44
with the gun he shot her in the leg no he shot her in the stomach no he shot her he couldn't guess the head so then
00:52:52
the detective has to come out and say who shot her in the head head that's not evidence
00:53:00
so I don't know I mean so I think it's but you want to talk about being horrible to the family they have a
00:53:08
freaking press conference where you sit there and talk about how their their daughter was raped and tortured when you
00:53:14
have no evidence of this I mean it's ridiculous you know and they basically told the whole confession the whole
00:53:22
[ __ ] confession that they got that they manufactured once they manufactured it
00:53:28
they get release it to the public that's just it's ridiculous so I don't know I mean I would be
00:53:39
surprised I I just find it very interesting I'm not one to change my mind often but to walk into a situation
00:53:45
where I find this person to be guilty of sin and you know you get burned to death
00:53:50
for all I care you know I just say these nonsense stuff at at crime con never watched the
00:53:56
documentary then I watch the first one I start going okay well there's something
00:54:01
here and there's this confession is complete Malarkey it's complete horseshit okay then you get to the
00:54:10
second one and by the end of the second one I can't stick with the I I can't even lean towards that he's guilty not
00:54:20
saying I lean towards innocence I can't even lean towards guilty anymore so I'm really interested to see what
00:54:27
happens uh with this case but where does it stand today well I mean I think Brendan has
00:54:36
exhausted most of his appeals if not all of them so I don't even know what's next
00:54:42
for him I know that coming soon there's a a evidence trial I think that's happening in December maybe for Stephen
00:54:53
Avery's case so an appeal or a whole new no I think it's an appeal but I think she'll be able to
00:55:02
argue she'll be able to present new evidence yeah which she already has I mean she's been you know presenting page
00:55:10
upon page but most of the time it just gets um and here's what's kind of funny about it is I I do think with
00:55:20
public opinion and perception that you can put pressure on the system mhm but I actually think that now that there's was
00:55:29
one documentary and the second one again it's more about the system it's more it's it's harder to watch you're going
00:55:37
to learn a lot it's like taking a class and and appeals right right that alone if you're interested in True Crime
00:55:47
should make you want to watch it I give it um two thumbs up right but I would say it's a slow bur so take your time
00:55:54
with it it's not going to be something that you're going to watch one episode and go well crap I can just get through
00:55:59
another three today uh I didn't find it that interesting I thought there was too many
00:56:05
points and this crazy the crazy lady that that was his fiance it was just she was nuts but uh
00:56:14
there's Parts like that where it's like they could have left that out cuz it really doesn't have anything to do with
00:56:19
the truth or the story I I'd recommend it but where I sit right now is I just don't know I mean it's like that Meme
00:56:28
that everybody was going around with saying free you know free Stephen Avery and then parentheses underneath it said
00:56:34
I think right right and and that's what it is I mean would it be that far-fetched
00:56:45
for somebody on that property to commit the crime and that not with the help not that the not
00:56:55
that law enforcement knew who killed her mhm but is it possible that these people
00:56:59
that are being sued for 36 million is it possible that're they're going to place
00:57:03
a couple pieces of evidence definitely and I believe that in the OJ I mean we said that all along
00:57:09
there was a mountain of evidence against OJ I believe he was guilty but at the same time I also believe that some of
00:57:16
the evidence was planted and in this case you know if I had to lean one way I actually lean to
00:57:25
yeah this this murder took place I don't know if it was by this guy yes I believe it was by somebody on that
00:57:34
property and then I think there was a lot of pieces of evidence that were moved or altered you know it's
00:57:45
just I don't know it it but it's so frustrating but when I heard there might be a making a murder number three I was
00:57:53
like well I'm I'm all in on that because I to me now I feel strongly about it like like zelner
00:58:02
right I just want to know the truth and if you're going to go through all this Malarkey and you're going
00:58:08
to every time this stuff comes out every time every time that the h boach family
00:58:14
has to they're watching The Today Show and it comes on and they have to turn the channel right mhm every time that
00:58:20
that happens hopefully we're going through this for a reason and hopefully at the end of the day would say we know
00:58:26
what happened we we have the right people in jail for it and and and it's the case will be solved
00:58:35
you know officially um and not not just in the court size but in the public size and I
00:58:42
think if so they will feel grateful for the process if if Stephen Avery and Brendan whether they did it or didn't do
00:58:52
it once the process is done I think they'll be grateful for it well Captain I'll tell you what for
00:59:02
me the second series like I said I find it slower than the first it's moving slower at a slower
00:59:09
Pace than the first one but the Kathleen zelner portion of it is fascinating I think she could have a show a docu
00:59:17
series all by herself regardless of what case she is working on um and if people
00:59:23
need more um on this case if they can't wait for season 3 which you know we waited years
00:59:30
between one and two so who knows how long it will be before season 3 comes out if in fact it does but if people
00:59:37
need more there is a book out called Wrecking Crew demolishing the case against step Avery uh this is not by
00:59:44
Kathleen zelner but I believe that it's um um a a strong Focus uh a microscopic view of what she has done in her hard
00:59:56
work and her team's work on this specific case yeah and one thing that I challenge you and anybody that's
01:00:02
watching this yes I believe she's awesome do I I believe she's in it for the right reason like I said I don't
01:00:10
think she's in it to get Stephen Avery out she's in it to find the truth she doesn't believe what what the
01:00:16
prosecution said is the truth she doesn't believe what the jury found to be true and she's trying to find the
01:00:22
truth that's one thing I love about her but this is what I challenge you when there's parts of the documentary these
01:00:30
little aha moments where she goes see and she presents she'll say this is what they presented and this is probably what
01:00:38
happened right pause pause the documentary right then and think about what she said for a
01:00:45
second and this is what my only argument about my only gripe with her would be that sometimes she thinks she found an
01:00:54
answer answer so she goes well here's what we we've believed before but here is the
01:01:02
simpler more logical path right to whatever she's talking about m i just argue that if you
01:01:11
pause it and think for about 2 minutes you'll come up maybe even two seconds you might come up with another just as
01:01:20
simple just as logical explanation mhm to whatever she's talking about and for whatever reason there at an all hom
01:01:29
moment I got a phone call I hit pause I start talking on the phone and in seconds I'm going well yeah she thought
01:01:37
that but this could be true too right so don't let yourself get fooled by that stuff and uh and I don't think swept up
01:01:46
in the moment as they say yeah [Music] yeah [Applause]