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[Music] [Music] n [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you're doing thanks for
00:01:15
listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man who strongly prefers
00:01:20
to use the clean and unobtrusive robot regular font for body text ladies and gentlemen the captain yeah get you some
00:01:30
it's good to be seen and good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling
00:01:34
a [Music] friend today we are still sipping on Seven Cities by smartmouth Brewing
00:01:43
Company in Norfolk Virginia that's seven sips for every seven minutes if you are
00:01:50
keeping track at home on your true crime garage sip counter Seven Cities is a beautiful
00:01:58
golden logger short to fill any glass with crisp refreshing goodness also I can see from my friends on untap that
00:02:06
this was the green beer for St Patty's Day at some of the finer establishments out there garage grade three and a half
00:02:14
bottle caps out of five and here's some shout outs to some of the finer listeners out there first up a cheers to
00:02:22
Robert E Palma from Parts Unknown and a big we like your jib goes out to Beer Run Becky and hillsbor
00:02:30
Oregon next up we have Mike from Toronto and last but certainly not least Captain
00:02:36
we have a double fisted cheers to Ken and Stewart from Fair playay California everyone we just mentioned they went to
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our website True Crime garage.com clicked on the Pint glass and that helped us out with this week beer fund
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and for that we thank you yeah I say it with me b e r you in beer run beer run if you didn't know you can listen to
00:02:58
the show on YouTube YouTube on the old YouTube so make sure you go over to YouTube and subscribe to True Crime
00:03:05
garage TV cuz it's on the TV and that's enough of the business all right everybody gather around grab a chair
00:03:13
grab a beer let's talk some true [Music] crime [Music] in May of 1984 the FBI received the
00:03:54
following letter I have been involved in Espionage for several years years specifically I
00:04:01
have passed along top secret cryptographic key list for military Communications tech manuals for same and
00:04:09
intelligence messages I didn't know that the info was being passed to the USSR until after I had been involved for a
00:04:17
few years and since then I been remorseful and wished to be free finally I have decided to stop
00:04:27
supplying material my contact does not know of my decision originally I was told I
00:04:34
couldn't get out without approval this was accompanied with threats at any rate the reason for this
00:04:42
letter is to give you the FBI an opportunity to break what probably is a significant Espionage system I know that
00:04:52
my contact has recruited at least three other members that are actively supplying highly classified material
00:05:00
if interested in this matter you can signal me with an ad in the Los Angeles Times classified section under personal
00:05:09
messages what I would expect to cooperate is complete immunity from prosecution and absolutely no public
00:05:17
disclosure of me or my identity I will look for an ad in Monday's editions only for the next four
00:05:25
weeks this is trr garage [Music] we were kneed deep in comparing the similarities not only in victimology but
00:05:44
also the similarities of the specifics of the crimes themselves and the details within those Crimes of the two unsolved
00:05:53
murders of two Navy ladies in the early 80s first we had Pamela an Kimu who was murdered in
00:06:02
1982 found on the Norfolk Navy base and then we had in 1983 Carol an molar whose
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body was found in a crevice of the seaw wall on that same navy base both of these bodies Captain were found in the
00:06:20
Navy Air Station portion of the base so we have this situation where victims are
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attacked and murdered within the course of about one year's time and their bodies turn up in roughly the same
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location and we have investigators who are sitting there in 1983 searching for answers and again obviously looking at
00:06:44
the parallels drawing parallels between these two murders in both cases we are likely going to have suspects that are
00:06:54
going to be persons that are close to the victim you would expect that that in any
00:07:00
murder investigation in these two cases this story is a little different than a lot
00:07:07
of true crime stories out there where you talk about the husband did it or the boyfriend did it or the ex-boyfriend or
00:07:15
the wife did it or the wife did it not all of you wives out there are perfectly innocent yeah in this case that was
00:07:25
certainly looked at in both of these homicides however as our timeline continues and stretches out
00:07:34
further we are going to have some suspects in these two murders that will by far
00:07:42
overshadow any of the Suspects on the inner Social Circles of these two victims one thing that will be difficult
00:07:52
or has become difficult as time has progressed in these cases is some of the information out there
00:08:01
Carol and molnar's case while very intriguing and again sharing similarities with Pamela Kim's case the
00:08:10
reporting on Carol Anne malar's case over the years has well frankly it's been bad the initial reports that were
00:08:18
coming out were giving us the details and the information that we needed to look at this story the information that
00:08:26
came out later some of it's just wrong and so when you start to cross reference what we have what information we know
00:08:35
about in this case you quickly start to go well some of this can't be true right
00:08:41
heck some of the reporting and these are I'm not going to name any names but reputable or supposed to be reputable
00:08:48
reporters bloody Duds yeah but I don't think they made anything up maybe they just got some bad information themselves
00:08:55
or got some bad Hooch didn't do what we like to say everyone should do their due
00:09:00
diligence yeah do your damn due diligence but in one report that is been widespread this person gets the cause of
00:09:12
death wrong for our victim saying that she was shot and we know that that is absolutely not the case carolan molar
00:09:19
was strangled both victims were strangled correct unfortunately Pamela kimw drowned in that vehicle after the
00:09:28
strangulation attempt let's get into one of the details that fascinated me about
00:09:35
this investigation and potential evidence here in Pamela Kim's case a big piece of evidence was the ski mask that
00:09:42
was found inside her vehicle that was submerged into the water later reporting in Carol Anne molnar's case would say
00:09:50
that a ski mask was found in her car remember her car was found 10 days after she went missing February 6th 198 3 from
00:10:00
the gallion club yeah her body's Found May 1st at 10:30 p.m. in the crevice of the seaw wall on the Naval Air Station
00:10:11
base reporting years later states that a ski mask was found in her car as well drawing even more connections between
00:10:19
these two cases however we were able to track down some information to suggest that that wasn't true that there was no
00:10:27
ski mask that was found in the the back of Carol and molnar's car that what I think has happened here Captain because
00:10:36
we have so many similarities in the victimology and all of this took place within about a year's time in the early
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80s I think that somehow this these cases it's like a game of telephone where one person tells somebody
00:10:52
something you tell another and you tell another and you tell another and then that story changes and tweaks a little
00:10:58
bit a little bit a little bit more each time that it goes down the wire I think somehow these two cases have kind of
00:11:07
been mesh together over the years where some of the details from one of the cases just spill Into The Narrative of
00:11:15
the other seems reasonable or seems likely well and we know this to to be the case here because again back to the
00:11:24
ski mask that is such a big part of the Pamela kimre case right it was reported later that a ski mask was found in the
00:11:33
back of carolanne molnar's car no we have police on record we have authorities on record saying when asked
00:11:41
about the ski mask saying there was no ski mask in carolanne malar's car the only thing we found in her car was her
00:11:52
shoes based off of the description while they never say it it sounds to me Captain like unfortunately remember we
00:11:59
get the description of what she was wearing when she went into work that Friday night right we get the
00:12:05
description of what she was wearing from her roommate the description of the shoes found in the car sound very
00:12:11
similar to me of the description that we hear from the roommate of what she was wearing going into work not only are you
00:12:18
a computer expert but you're also a female shoe expert like Al Bundy H let me play devil's advocate
00:12:27
here just for a second is is it possible that some of these reports that are they seem like misinformation is it
00:12:35
possible that they got some Insider information from law enforcement or possibly from the Navy and they release
00:12:42
this information but this is actually hold back information from law enforcement some of it could be hold
00:12:47
back information here's where I think that that the reporting got bad I think that if if I were to pick up the phone
00:12:56
and reach out to a few different names of people that are on my notes Here for these cases right and I I call up and
00:13:05
say hey and some of this did occur but maybe not exactly in this manner if I call up and say hey I'm calling from The
00:13:13
New York Times I'm calling from a a paper or I'm working on a project or a book and I'm calling from afar and I say
00:13:21
hey you need to talk to so and so oh yeah what are you calling about I'm calling about the the Sailor that was
00:13:26
murdered and found on the air base well if if you don't use the victim's name you very likely could start getting
00:13:33
details about the other case because unfortunately both of these women were found on the Naval Base both of them
00:13:39
unfortunately were murdered right and so I think that that is probably what happened I think that they they received
00:13:46
some bad information because maybe they didn't ask the right questions what did we learn from True Detective season 4
00:13:53
you you keep bring that show up I just love that they they came up you know they present had this idea which is so
00:14:00
true in what we do here in the garage when we're researching these cases and exactly what detectives do it's you're
00:14:08
only going to get the right answers when you ask the right questions and the right questions most of the time are
00:14:14
just not so obvious right questions right suspects now I don't know if we have the
00:14:21
right suspects in both of these cases but there are certainly some interesting suspects and there are going to be
00:14:28
suspects that will present themselves put themselves on the radar if you will in both of these homicide cases and
00:14:36
these suspects will by far overshadow anybody on the inner Social Circle of these two young ladies the first that
00:14:45
presents itself Captain I I wish we were just talking one-on-one right now because I
00:14:51
think you're going to love this portion of the story so the first portion the first potential suspect or let's say
00:14:59
suspects right it's a suspect pool here that we're going to present to you right
00:15:03
this pops up on the radar in May of 1984 on the other side of the country out in San Francisco
00:15:11
California and this is when correspondence when a letter arrives to the FBI office out there where the
00:15:20
letter writer is confessing to committing Espionage but they are remaining Aon that is what you heard in the trailer at
00:15:33
the start of this episode is that letter from the unknown writer to the San Francisco FBI office they received that
00:15:43
in May the person is stating I've been committing Espionage and I have I've been going against my country I've been
00:15:51
selling secrets to the Soviets and I'm I feel bad about this and oh by the way I'm doing it with
00:16:00
other persons too I've been making money off of this but I'm willing to stop doing this I'm willing to turn myself in
00:16:08
and I'm willing to turn in my cohorts but I would like you to show leniency or I believe immunity immunity
00:16:18
immunity was the request now I don't know that anybody would expect you'd have to be a crazy person to expect to
00:16:24
get full Immunity on on selling secrets to the Soviets now is the government or military allowed to say yeah we'll we'll
00:16:34
give you immunity and then go psych well is the government allowed to lie is that
00:16:39
what we're asking um look yeah don't get me started I'm going to go on record and
00:16:43
say two things one I love our government and two not only are they allowed to lie
00:16:48
but they do it to us every day um that's you love the ones that hurt you the most I just want them to know that I
00:16:56
am a fan so don't come after me I I've got other problems I don't need the government on my back yeah every now
00:17:03
and then I pick up my phone and I whisper into it I love you government please don't kill me the
00:17:11
letter writer is is trying to set up an exchange of communication with the FBI yeah and saying look I'm going to if you
00:17:22
want to communicate with me place an ad a one a one ad in the CL specified section of this specific newspaper but
00:17:31
only on Mondays I will monitor it every Monday I will monitor that section every
00:17:36
Monday and look for you to communicate with me because I what the letter writer wants is hey can you guarantee me this
00:17:45
before I reveal myself to you and the letter writer the while it's Anonymous they are calling themselves I guess Russ
00:17:55
or capital r capital u capital s and so communicate with me via the classified section of this newspaper only on
00:18:04
Mondays and they do there is some back and forth between the FBI and this Russ character but at some point the
00:18:12
communication tapers off and the FBI walks away from this going okay we what the letter writer is stating is so vague
00:18:21
we can't prove anything from what we've received from them that there's actual Espionage or crimes being committed here
00:18:30
and unless this person continues to communicate with us we don't fully know what's going on but they can also gather
00:18:37
from the communication that they think that you know what maybe Russ is getting cold feet and doesn't want to turn
00:18:43
himself in right so San Francisco's office is investigating this the listeners will want to know that the
00:18:52
letter they did track down that the letter came from Sacramento and I believe there were
00:18:59
about a million and a half people living in Sacramento at the time so that's not
00:19:03
of great help and of course just because a letter is mailed from there doesn't mean that one of the good people of
00:19:10
Sacramento had to be the ones to mail that letter anybody can drive into town and drop something off in in the mail
00:19:18
slot there we're going to fast forward a few months later and we're going to go back to the other side of the country
00:19:24
where we started on the East Coast this is back to the east side di this is when the
00:19:31
FBI gets contacted in September of 1984 and they're contacted by a one Barbara Walker and she is actually
00:19:41
separated from her husband her ex-husband is John Walker she calls up I believe she might even have been quite
00:19:51
intoxicated when she called up but she calls up and she says look sounds like us when we're do a podcast she calls she
00:20:00
calls the FBI and could could be quite intoxicated I don't know hey guys I just want to call you tell you this Beard's
00:20:09
good well she tells them that her ex-husband John Walker has been selling secrets to the Soviets for many years
00:20:17
now and making a bunch of money off of it of course the FBI now they have to sort out well is this just an angry
00:20:26
ex-wife who's trying to set up her husband for something drunk out of her mind or is this uh there's some smoke
00:20:34
and plenty of fire situation what makes this interesting to the FBI is John Walker himself worked
00:20:45
for the Navy for many years and he worked on submarines as well yeah I don't have his exact rank in front of me
00:20:52
here but at this point in our timeline in 1984 who is John Walker well John Walker
00:20:59
former naval officer oh by the way some of his work was out of the Norfolk area for the Navy and then after he retired
00:21:10
he's still in that Norfolk Virginia area but he's running like a private investigator company so he owns his own
00:21:20
company and they're they're fairly successful they're not they're not crazy big time but they're fairly successful
00:21:27
she's accusing him of selling secrets to the N to the Soviets and what she says is that she doesn't know a whole lot
00:21:36
about it right he didn't like openly talk about this with her when they were together and and if he did she was drunk
00:21:44
out of her mind and forgot all about it well he told me some stuff but I just wasn't listening but she says that from
00:21:52
her understanding he started doing this when he was working for the Navy and then managed somehow to continue to do
00:21:59
this even after he had gone on to create his own company this Private Investigations company she believes and
00:22:07
tells the FBI that she believes that he had made over a million dollars and I think she referenced a million and a
00:22:16
half at the time of her call which you go back to the early 80s and during his time in the Navy
00:22:24
which would have been in the late 60s and 70s all through the 70s that's a whole lot of cashola that's some cash
00:22:32
but the worst part about it is he never paid taxes on it well the worst part of it we we
00:22:40
shouldn't laugh because there's there's a I would guess I don't know what exact information he had sold to the Soviets
00:22:47
in fact it was later proven that he had sold it to the KGB without going through
00:22:52
all of this the saddest part of it is the worst part of it is he his these secrets this information may have killed
00:23:00
some of our own men and women yeah uh in in the armed forces so and that's that's
00:23:05
not good well and that's why it's you don't want you can't take these things lightly right this this Espionage and so
00:23:14
now they're looking at this guy and they're trying to figure out okay is this just a an angry old ex-wife coming
00:23:22
after this dude trying to set him up and the one thing that they're starting to question too is look they spy on us we
00:23:29
spy on them they know some things we do we know some things that they do and the
00:23:33
FBI at the time and the CIA was working under this idea that maybe the story is not true because a million and a half
00:23:40
dollars sounds like a lot of money like it they had some evidence to suggest that the KGB didn't pay out that kind of
00:23:49
money for Secrets now this million a half dollars was collected over a long period of time to try to keep this story
00:23:58
moving along here Captain because this John Walker story is huge and it became a very big story in the mid 80s here in
00:24:09
the United States and parts of it got pretty sensationalized wonky donkey like we
00:24:16
like to say but what we're going to have here is John Walker plus the persons that were working with him to sell these
00:24:25
this information to the Soviets this will go on to become what is now known today as the Walker spy ring yeah so we
00:24:35
got several people that are working together here and had done so for many years and what M this is where it gets
00:24:45
hard to try to separate what could be sensationalized about this walker spy ring story and what could be truth
00:24:56
that's just buried in the story itself mhm naturally people started to wonder well if you have this amount of money
00:25:06
exchanging hands you have all of this illegal activity that's going on all of this covering up and these shadowy
00:25:17
figures they started to wonder what else could persons in the Spy ring be responsible for what other crimes in the
00:25:26
area could they have committed would they have murdered someone to shut them up or if somebody was on to one of them
00:25:33
would they have murdered them to keep them quiet and that is how members of this
00:25:39
walker spy ring become suspects in the unsolved murders of Carol Anne molar and Pamela kimw all right I'm on the edge of
00:25:51
my seat drunk out of my mind calling the FBI what else do we know about this I mean okay so these guys possibly
00:26:00
were capable of murder that doesn't link them enough for me to these cases how how are they linked to these cases so
00:26:09
they're working in the area at the time and then what we get is John Walker and his son so he recruited his son Michael
00:26:19
to join in on the Spy ring activity his son also worked for our government um I can't recall if he was I believe he was
00:26:27
in Navy as well his daughter Laura he attempted to recruit her as well Laura Walker she was in the Navy as
00:26:42
well and she turned him down she's like no I don't I I don't think she was aware
00:26:48
that he was doing this until he offered to bring her in on it right and she says
00:26:54
no I don't want any part of this but she doesn't go anywhere with the information
00:26:58
she doesn't take that information to anybody it's the ex-wife Barbara Crowley who turns him in they got divorced in
00:27:06
1976 she's phoning this in in September of 1984 she says that she learned about this she
00:27:16
hadd been sitting on this information for over 10 years well thanks a lot you're exactly right while I do not
00:27:23
appreciate that I guess better late than never yeah maybe but and her defense okay she learns about this information
00:27:32
okay well how serious it is is it how serious is this and should I go to law enforcement and how much danger Will I
00:27:41
put myself in by going to law enforcement I mean so in her defense if I got some juicy information about some
00:27:49
bad people you have to then question do you want to turn over that information and put yourself at risk well and it
00:27:57
will turn out that the person that was remorseful that wanted to come forward that wanted to
00:28:03
stop doing this that was John Walker so that letter that was received the anonymous letter the anonymous letter
00:28:11
Russ came from from Mr Walker now Mr Walker as we said already recruited his son Michael who was
00:28:19
involved his brother was involved as well who was also the also a military man and then another guy by the name of
00:28:27
Jerry Wht worth He was a senior chief petty officer in the Navy and you never get into business with your brother well
00:28:36
you have so you have these four that are known to be doing this he attempted to recruit his daughter who
00:28:44
said no later when she's confronted by the FBI she does tell them what she knows now the wife Barbara the ex-wife
00:28:53
the way that she came to find out that her husband was working as a spy for the Soviets she's sleeping with Jon's
00:29:03
brother while they're still married and it's John's brother that tells Barbara that oh yeah your husband's your
00:29:12
husband's a spy I'm a spy too but don't worry about it we're it's not that big of a deal we're not selling crazy
00:29:20
important information to the Soviets and we're just making a lot of cash in fact
00:29:24
he tries to sell it to Barbara as saying like a lot of people do it there's a lot
00:29:29
of people in government and in the armed forces that do this it's not that big of
00:29:33
a deal oh but this makes Barbara sex spy I don't believe anything that the brother's saying I don't think that many
00:29:40
people in the government or in the military are in fact doing this I think he was just trying to well I think he's
00:29:47
just trying to downplay it so that she doesn't run off to the authorities and which we know that she did eventually I
00:29:54
think she could have been easily talked out of it and again I think she may have
00:29:57
been intoxicated and and and full of anger when she chose to call it in because we do have her on record later
00:30:04
when her ex-husband his brother Jerry Whitworth they're all busted but keep in mind all at the same time her son is
00:30:12
busted as well her son Michael who was doing this was busted as well and she did say on record after the fact I would
00:30:20
have never went to the authorities had I known Michael was involved she didn't know like she told the authorities she
00:30:26
didn't know everything that was going on didn't have a great understanding of it
00:30:30
this is I only know a little bit here's what I know and she said that had I known that my son was doing this I would
00:30:37
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00:34:47
filthy sex spin cheers to you all tall cans in the air onward and upward are there any sex
00:34:56
spies that are not filthy I think I think that's part of the I would love to be a filthy sex spy
00:35:04
well the way that this all works here is we have another individual that is attempting to run guns they're
00:35:13
attempting to sell illegal firearms and we're talking about by the case load my friend hundreds of thousands of dollars
00:35:21
stood to be made by selling guns what they're doing Captain is when they get on to this John Walker this walker spy
00:35:31
ring and the persons involved the Navy and the FBI very wisely they decide you know we're not we're not just going to
00:35:39
kick in the door no we're going to surveil these guys for a while we're going to see what they're up to let's
00:35:45
see if we can find out exactly who they are working with and how they are going about this business of selling secrets
00:35:52
to the Soviets during the portion of this surveillance they learn that Walker and
00:35:59
his son and members of the Spy ring they like to do things like they act like to
00:36:04
be kind of like flamboyant gangsters right like have money show that they have money Drive flashy cars hang out
00:36:11
with young women party at night go to these clubs and that's where they think that there may have been some crossover
00:36:19
between Carol and Molar and a person or persons in this spy ring could she have been killed
00:36:28
because she knew too much and one thing that's really interesting is we talked so much about where her body was found
00:36:37
her body was found not far from where one of the persons in the Spy ring docked their boat and I believe it was a
00:36:46
house boat and we talk so much about having to have access to the Naval Base due to where our victims were found but
00:36:55
if waterers involved I don't know that you have to absolutely have full access to where Carol Anne molar was
00:37:04
discovered meaning meaning if you used a boat to place her where she was I don't
00:37:11
I think you could get her to where she was found without being granted access to the base where the opposite is the
00:37:19
case for Pamela Kimu where Pamela kimw was found and how the nature of that crime in that investigation
00:37:28
that person had to already be on the base to attack her and attempt to conceal the body I'm going to say
00:37:34
something again call me out on it if I'm dumb very a lot of similarities right if
00:37:40
she made it back on the base Carol right right they would have record that she made it back on the base and then she
00:37:48
would there'd be a record of what individual she was with and you would have to believe that either she did that
00:37:55
without the use of her vehicle or or her and her vehicle made it onto the base and somehow somebody moved the vehicle
00:38:02
off of the base but not her yeah cuz I was just thinking is it possible that she met somebody at the
00:38:08
bar they started heading in the direction back home things weren't going his way but that's not possible right
00:38:19
because essentially she's back on the base does that make sense what I'm saying she's found yes she's found in
00:38:25
the naval airspace sorry she's found in the Navy Air Station portion of that base now when we say seaw wall it's my
00:38:35
understanding captain that they're talking about the the seaw walls that would separate they kind of protrude out
00:38:42
into the water yeah what I'm getting at if she's found on the outside of that or
00:38:48
if and there's no nice way of saying this if she was a floater she could have just she could
00:38:55
have either been placed where she was was found or she could have ended up where she was found after being just
00:39:01
tossed into the water or or disposed of in some other form or fashion I apologize for the the crude remarks and
00:39:11
again we don't have enough information I think to really decipher exactly how she
00:39:18
ended up where she was where with the reverse is true with Pamela Kimu we can say with near certainty that we
00:39:30
understand how she ended up in the water I mean she was placed in her car in the
00:39:34
back seat and that vehicle was submerged in the water her and her vehicle were on
00:39:39
the base her and her vehicle were found in the waters of the base right that's pretty simple to me somebody on the base
00:39:48
that was there at that time of night or morning we should say it was roughly 4:00 a.m. when she was killed they were
00:39:56
able to narrow it down until about 400 a.m. on that faithful day the issue here is as said these persons would frequent
00:40:06
some of these clubs there was also persons suggesting that maybe Carol Anne molar had some kind of
00:40:16
I hate to use the word relationship because people always jump to what that may mean yeah but there is some
00:40:25
information out there that say says that maybe she had interactions with one or two of these guys which would make sense
00:40:33
if she works at the club and they frequent the clubs there is information out there too that states that okay so
00:40:42
we're going to we're fast forward a little bit this again this walker spy ring thing was was a big deal in the mid
00:40:48
80s and as I said earlier it I believe it got very sensationalized this was selling newspapers and then later it's
00:40:57
going to sell books and one of the individuals that covered the case and wrote a book on the case States in his
00:41:05
book and states in newspapers I talked to NIS and they told me that yes these spiring guys are suspects in three
00:41:20
murders the murders of Pamela kimw Carol and Molar the two victim that we've discussed at length and also a
00:41:31
Portsmith Virginia detective now his death was actually ruled a suicide but there were things at the scene that
00:41:42
people thought didn't line up with the Su with a suicide so detective Joiner was found the official cause of death
00:41:52
ruled suicide he had shot himself but the way that the gun was found in his hand didn't make sense it's
00:42:00
like facing the opposite direction he's holding it in his left hand rather than than his dominant hand his right hand
00:42:09
and that case has never really moved off of what it was ruled as a suicide but you have persons
00:42:21
that this author cites private investigators and nameless NIS workers or nameless
00:42:31
persons Anonymous sources from the FBI I believe is how they stated that these men or one of these men in the Spy ring
00:42:40
is responsible for some or one or all three of these murders what we do get captain is years later and I I love when
00:42:51
when things get squashed right you you got you got to smash it when it's when it's just wrong it's just wrong you have
00:42:58
the FBI that came out later and says we never said that we we've never openly said that we believe that these guys
00:43:07
killed anybody or in fact are even directly tied to these murders in particular what no the FBI goes on
00:43:17
record and says we never said that so what you have is you have somebody's lying either the author is lying or the
00:43:25
FBI is lying but you know the FBI motives well the FBI is isn't just one person so if if the authors's lying that
00:43:36
author knows for for certain if it's the FBI they may not know for sure there could be somebody within their
00:43:41
organization that sat down and had drinks with this author and said oh yeah yeah we we were looking at these guys
00:43:47
for murder too so here we sit with this interesting idea that one or somebody involved in the spiry ring could have
00:43:56
murdered one of these women or both of these women it's easy to kind of connect the dots and say okay that makes some
00:44:03
sense but again you have one source telling us yes this is true there's some smoke here and then you have another
00:44:12
source and that Source being the FBI saying no there is no smoke here the FBI that is 1984 that is
00:44:21
1985 in 1985 to kind of sum up The Walker spy rings story John Walker Jr did plead guilty he he did a plea
00:44:34
bargain with Federal prosecutors which he was forced to testify against his co-conspirators and again that included
00:44:44
this Jerry witor it included his son Michael Walker and it included his brother and
00:44:54
John Walker I believe passed away in prison while he was serving his time the next
00:45:04
suspect Falls onto the radar in November of 1985 this is a man that would go on to be known as several different names
00:45:17
we are choosing to call him the Florida vampire but this is a man who abducted a
00:45:23
woman while he was living in Melbourne Florida in November of 1985 he holds her captive
00:45:31
in his home where he is for a lack of better terms sexually torturing her for an extended period of time now she gets
00:45:42
lucky and I say she gets lucky because she gets away and I actually believe that this guy has got some victims that
00:45:51
never got away yeah the police and the FBI think so is as well because later they would tell us he needs to be a
00:46:02
suspect in the unsolved murders of Pamela kimw and Carol an molar this man's name is John Brennan
00:46:12
crutchley the vampire of Florida it's exactly right so he abducted this woman during a time period when his wife and
00:46:21
child were out of town and if you believe some of the information in the Long Island serial
00:46:29
killer case you're immediately jumping and thinking to that case yeah he abducts this woman she gets lucky she
00:46:37
gets away this guy has clearance has military clearance he didn't work for the military he worked as a contractor
00:46:47
for the military mhm he was an engineer he was a systems engineer he moved around a lot
00:46:57
and during the course of that moving around he would work for some of these military bases there's good reason to
00:47:05
believe he he lived in Norfolk for a while what the authorities want to figure out he moved so for my
00:47:14
understanding Captain he moved from Norfolk Virginia down to Florida in 1983 right and we know that Pamela Kimu
00:47:23
was killed in 1982 in Northfolk Virginia and we know that Carol and Molar was killed in 1983 in Virginia the problem
00:47:31
with the Carol and Molar case as far as John Brennan crutchley Florida vampire goes I can't figure out I've not been
00:47:42
able to find a definitive date of when he moves from Virginia in 1983 down to Florida right what we do know is he did
00:47:51
move in the course of that year so if he moved prior to February 6th and was not
00:47:57
in Northfolk Virginia then he could not physically be responsible for the Carol and Molar case yeah or he was going back
00:48:05
and forth and move a little bit out of time so he is somebody that came onto radar and and was being looked at not
00:48:14
just in these two homicides we're talking about in many homicides in fact so many homicides that when you and I
00:48:21
started looking at crutchley we decided this is too big of a story we've got to we've got to take a look at this guy put
00:48:30
him under the microscope and see what else he could be responsible for and I hesitate I want to I would like to tell
00:48:38
the listeners this is just the tip of the iceberg with this guy in this story no the no there is so much bizarre
00:48:47
behavior strange Behavior evil Behavior about this guy that I don't I hesitate to even start to go down that road
00:48:56
because one thing that we need to discuss is that there was actually some justice for our
00:49:06
victims so while we sit here today captain and we say unfortunately the Carol an molar case is still unsolved
00:49:17
the NIS who was looking at the murder of Pamela kimw they got a huge break in 1995 in the
00:49:29
case that is when and I'm happy to report this will be our recommended reading again uh for the second time the
00:49:38
solving cold cases author Joe D Kennedy so Kennedy was on the Cold Case task force he was on the task force that
00:49:51
decided to take a second look at the Pamela kimw case when he gets a hold of the file he starts looking through the
00:49:58
file and he realizes wait a second we've got a good suspect that's already in our
00:50:05
file she was killed in 1982 he's looking at this in 1995 the suspect is Richard Whitt Richard
00:50:16
Whittle had access to the base in fact he was out working that night the same night that Pamela Kimu
00:50:24
was killed and like we said not only do they have to have access but they also to have access at that time period of
00:50:33
night so the Pamela Kimu case is discussed in his book and that's another reason to pick it up but the cool thing
00:50:41
about his book is that you can apply it to any Cold Case and how you choose to look at the information that's out there
00:50:48
and and the evidence that's out there in any Cold Case now remember we said in the early weeks after several weeks of
00:50:56
work NIS had reported to the newspapers that in the kimw case that they had talked to
00:51:02
798 persons they had interviewed 798 people about the case and then later 1995 Joe Kennedy Cold Case expert takes
00:51:13
a look at it and he goes wait a second I think I think our guy is already somebody that we've talked to he's
00:51:20
already in the file and that was that Richard Whittle who was working that night and why does hone in on Richard
00:51:27
Whittle it's because Richard Whittle told NIS one thing and told people he worked with another thing he told he
00:51:37
told the authorities yeah I knew who she was but I never saw her I didn't I didn't see her that night I had seen her
00:51:42
in days right yet he tells other people that he worked with yeah you know because it was it was something I mean
00:51:50
if a person gets murdered body found at at the place where all of us work of course we're going to talk about it of
00:51:57
course he tells these other people well yeah not only do I you know do you remember when that woman was killed oh
00:52:05
yeah not only do I remember but uh I I was questioned because I was the last person may have been the last person to
00:52:12
see her that night so that doesn't line up with what he's telling police so if you if you are the detective and forgive
00:52:20
me if I slip and say police we're so used to saying police but n when you when you tell a detective one thing and
00:52:27
then other people something else the detective immediately wants to know he he or she is if they're a good detective
00:52:35
they're not going to immediately jump to oh Richard whittle's the killer no they're going to go he's a liar but a
00:52:43
lot of people lie and I want to know why he is lying about this yeah does that make him my killer he's living out in
00:52:53
California in 1995 I'll back up the truck just a little bit here Captain because I have a
00:52:58
suspicion about this investigation I don't think that this cold case task force just happened to
00:53:06
pick up this case File in 1995 and take a look at it MH what was happening what we do know was happening was Florida
00:53:14
authorities were taking a hardcore look at John Brenan crutchley Florida Vampire
00:53:20
who's already locked up and in prison they're taking a hard look at him in 1995 they they re open up their
00:53:27
investigation on him and they are going to other states where they know that he lived for a period of time trying to
00:53:35
find out if he has any other victims one of those States they go to is Virginia so I think that that kind of
00:53:43
kickstarted or maybe reinvigorated the investigation into these two cold cases so a lot of sense to me yeah so in 1995
00:53:54
Richard whittles living out in California and Kennedy is really darn good at what he does so he flies out
00:54:01
there with another detective and just plays dumb right oh yeah we're out here we don't you know your name was in we're
00:54:07
only out here because your name was in the file we don't you know think you really have any information or any
00:54:12
importance to the case but we have to re-interview everybody and you were interviewed before and so yeah he says
00:54:18
yeah I remember her and blah blah blah and so the conversation has started they have
00:54:24
DNA in Pamela Kimber case Kennedy knows that he's got to get whittle's DNA and then oh this guy this
00:54:34
guy is gross this guy is disgusting when they get out to California and find out
00:54:40
what he's been up to he's he's been kind of living two lives right on one hand he's he's got a a wife who who I think
00:54:49
required being taken care of I think she had some health issues and needed a caretaker right he's taking care of her
00:54:57
and they have a child together but while he's out there he he gets in trouble for
00:55:04
exposing himself to some people in the area I believe he's even I don't want to go into to to what I know we don't need
00:55:13
to get into specifics which we know that's not good because I've been told by law enforcement many times that I
00:55:18
can't do that we know that this is type of behaviors going on and it get if you want to take a look at Richard Whittle
00:55:25
it gets more gross than that but to keep it short and and not so sweet he was exposing himself to persons that's what
00:55:33
he called it short and sweet Kennedy sends a female officer to widow's neighborhood under the ruse that
00:55:42
she's out there conducting a survey of persons that live in the area and all would you
00:55:50
fill this out while I ask you some questions she's going door to door knocking on doors would you fill this
00:55:54
out while I ask you some questions oh by the we're going to pay you for your time
00:55:59
we'll pay you and uh we just need to when you're done with your questionnaire just fold it up for me and place it in
00:56:06
that envelope but we need our envelopes to be sealed right so we make sure that the right people get
00:56:12
paid so Whittle licks that envelope seals it up hands it back to her and then off she goes ass and of course now
00:56:22
it's only a matter of time before they're going to find out does his DNA match the suspect DNA that they have in Pamela
00:56:29
Kim's case and it absolutely does but Joe Kennedy is I I I don't want to use the burrito
00:56:37
supreme reference anymore yeah it's it's kind of played it's kind of played but since we out son since we entered
00:56:45
Florida into the conversation we will talk let's how about we use a reference that is is more about Florida so to the
00:56:55
extreme right Vanilla Ice uh from Miami Florida so Joe Kennedy is detective to the extreme yeah word to your mother he
00:57:06
says I yeah I got the DNA and I could have this guy locked up right now but you know what I want that's not good
00:57:13
enough I want a confession he brings him in questions him tells him we got your DNA tells him that oh by the way the ski
00:57:22
mask that we found in the back of her car we found your hairs in it and we know that you knew her based off of our
00:57:29
previous questioning guy breaks down and confess confesses so Kennedy takes us from a Cold Case to a DNA confession
00:57:39
case wow rather quickly and this dude is locked up he gets two life sentences one
00:57:45
for the rape one for the murder of Pamela Kimu now you go well did he kill Carol Anne molar the following year in a
00:57:57
case that has so many similarities yeah what we do know about Whittle is we do know that he
00:58:04
moved shortly after Kim's murder and like John crutchley we don't have that specific
00:58:14
date he could have moved beforehand but what we do know is that it's been reported and it's
00:58:21
been stated that the DNA in the Pamela kimw case does not match the suspect DNA that they have in Carol and
00:58:32
molnar's case we get one solved that's a great start right and I have every reason to believe
00:58:43
Captain the Carol an molar case is active and that they are still investigating and still looking for her
00:58:52
[Music] killing [Music] want to thank everybody for joining us here in the garage each and every week
00:59:05
make sure you subscribe to the show Colonel do we have any recommended reading for the beautiful listeners we
00:59:11
have recommended this before and of course we have to recommend it again due to this week's garage conversations so
00:59:19
our recommendation is a book titled solving cold cases investigation and protocol by by Joe D Kennedy Joe Kennedy
00:59:29
is the Cold Case expert that solved the Pamela an kimw Cold Case homicide and put a pervert rapist and murderer
00:59:38
Richard Whittle where he belongs and that's behind bars removed from society learn just about everything there is to
00:59:46
know about solving cold cases from one of the experts this week's recommendation solving cold cases by Joe
00:59:54
D Kennedy you can find that great title plus podcast and documentaries on our recommended page true Crim garage.com
01:00:03
and until next week be good be kind be cool and don't [Music] [Applause] litter [Music]