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On Mind of a Monster, The Hollywood Ripper, uncover the life and crimes of serial killer Michael Gargiulo, who
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>> [music] [music] [music] >> Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you're doing, thanks
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for listening. I'm your host, Nick, and with me as always is a man who I thought
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would be my silent partner. Here is the captain. >> Silent [music] but deadly partner. It's
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good to be seen and good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for Tona friend.
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Today we are still drinking Beer. I guess every week, Captain, we are drinking Garage Beer. But, this
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Garage Beer is called Garage Beer, and it's a classic light beer brewed the way light beer used to be made. This is
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cold, refreshing beer. 3 g of carbs, 95 calories. Garage rates three and three quarter bottle caps out of five. And if
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And if you would like to help out the show and get something in return, you can score some true crime garage gear on
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our website's store page, truecrimegarage.com. >> Yeah, b w e double r u n beer run, and
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that is enough of the b- hits. Next. >> Right, everybody gather around, grab a chair, grab a beer, let's talk some true
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crime. >> [music] >> We will be talking a lot about DNA in this case [music] here today, but before
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we get into the DNA evidence, and especially that cigarette butt that we talked so much about at the end of
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yesterday's episode, we need to talk about the suspects police found in Johnny's social circle.
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Now, this is the early stages of the investigation here, Captain. This is within days and
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weeks after the double homicide. Now, we know that police spoke many times to Johnny's close friend, and I
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want to use that term loosely. We're being told that they were close friends, but
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it sounds to me, Captain, that that Johnny may have had a couple of air quotes close friends for a few months
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the summer and fall prior to his murder. And these people may not have necessarily been involved in his life
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prior to that. >> Right. >> And so we want to make sure we're using that term loosely, especially if
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Johnny's friends and loved ones are listening and they and they're getting upset that we're calling this
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individual close friend. But this is how it's reported. And that's what he's referred to as and we're talking about
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somebody that we've mentioned briefly before, Anthony Watson. He also goes by Tony and Tone Watson.
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Now, he is a key player here in this investigation and either considered to be a suspect or a
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person with information to police early on in the investigation because he will ultimately tell authorities
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that he was supposed to either stop by the Straub house the evening of the double homicide or if you listen to the
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entirety of the interview with Anthony Watson, he also makes reference to the possibility that Johnny might be
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stopping by his house. So I have not been able to sort out if this is Watson changing his story
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or not wanting to put himself as potentially being at the Straub house or going to the Straub house that night.
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But the reason why we know this to be part of the case is that a person who is not considered
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to be a suspect and should not be considered a suspect. Uh we remember we spoke about Johnny's
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very close friend, the the lifelong friend that ends up talking to Tiffany and Zach
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that night and that's how they ultimately get in touch with Johnny's parents. So Johnny's lifelong best friend
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and some others are people that tell the police, "Look, we know that Anthony Watson was either
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supposed to drop by the Stobbe house or Johnny was supposed to go to Anthony's house that night because
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Johnny said this to a couple people before the murder. So, this obviously will be somebody that
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police want to talk to. Did you Did you actually end up going to the Stobbe house? Did Johnny end up going to your
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house? And you can hear in the interview that he says no that the the meet up never
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actually took place. In fact, the the short of it, the best way to sum it up is that
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Johnny mentions this to a person that he's on the phone with speaking the person that he's speaking to
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immediately before taking the call from Tiffany Williams. Anthony Watson tells police that the two
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were planning to meet up, but when it got too late, he bailed telling Johnny that he had to get up early for school
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the following morning. Now, I can't vouch for that part of the alibi, right? But we do know
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that Anthony Watson was in school at that time. Um so that that may be just as Anthony
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Watson says. >> Well, and we also we don't >> [clears throat] >> law enforcement has the phone records,
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so they could be able to run that alibi. >> We hope so. Yes, we we hope that they
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have all of the phone records. And so, did the two actually see each other that night? That remains a question for a lot
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of people. And even though the DNA evidence is going to lead us to two other individuals, both of them not named
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Anthony Watson, there is evidence at the murder scene that other persons were involved. So, we
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can't really eliminate everybody else just because that DNA led us to two other individuals.
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And the tricky thing here though with Watson there's parts of that interview and we
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looked at that interview quite a bit. Because on the surface he seems to be very much like a
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like a twin of Samuel Williams. They you know, they dress the same, they kind of act the same, they're they've
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both have criminal background history of violence. But there's something a little different
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about Watson to me and and it's just this is not proof of anything. It's just a it's just kind of a gut reaction that I
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get to his interview that there's something about him that tells that My instinct here Captain is that I
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believe that he's telling the truth more times than he's not telling the truth in
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that interview. >> He doesn't come off as stand-offish to law enforcement. It seems like he's willing to have a
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conversation with them. He's willing to even ponder ideas that he might not even
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know if it's true or not. Here's some rumors I heard. I'm not really for sure. But he also seems again, so he seems
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like he's willing to cooperate and he seems like he's pretty relaxed. When you look at some of the other
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interrogations, those people come across as not willing to cooperate and they're
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definitely not relaxed. >> It yeah, it's it's strange too because there were parts of that interview that
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I thought, oh man, the way that he is he just keeps taking a sip of that drink almost like he's nervous and I'm like it
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he's doing that constantly cuz he's nervous and he's nervous because he's lying.
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And then I thought that I thought the detective did a good job trying to back him into a
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corner and asked him straight up. He's like, are you nervous? And Watson says, no, I'm pissed. And I
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got get getting to think about it and watching him again, that could explain the that what I
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thought was nervous drinking. And he may just be pissed like he told the officer.
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Well, that's interesting that you thought he came off as nervous cuz I I thought he came I mean, I guess I didn't
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notice. I I have to go back. I guess I didn't notice how many times he was taking a drink.
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That was the only part. You're right though. His his verbal, just the verbal communication. I was trying to watch
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and get an opinion of him on just his physical communication and his body language. But his verbal communication
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with the officer is incredibly casual. Like it it it appears that not only like this guy with
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a criminal history, he's very comfortable with the detective and not because he thinks he's smarter
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than the detective or anything like that. It almost feels like like they may have they may know each other fairly
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well cuz they they speak pretty candidly to one another or at least it appears that way.
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And almost in a chummy manner at times, too. Um but he >> you said, he has a criminal history. So
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this is probably a situation that he's been in before. But it's a big difference to be in that
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situation and be guilty of something and to be into that in that situation and not be guilty of something.
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>> Yes. And one thing that's interesting, he remains an interesting figure in this
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whole case because where I can't decide where he falls. Again, we're looking for
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additional suspects because we know other people or at least the evidence is telling us other people were involved
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in this double homicide. Now, he remains an interesting figure to me for a couple reasons. One, he tells he
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does tell police some information like uh that that he had heard that there were
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at least four people involved in the murder and he he references two males and two females.
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And the tricky thing though with Watson to me what is not in question is that he was in communication with Johnny,
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right? And we we that's that that is per him. He he says that Johnny told other people that that night. So we he agrees
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with with that that he was in communication with Johnny on the on the day that Johnny was killed.
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What we need to learn more about Watson is exactly what you said Captain with the phone records. I'm hoping that they
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have subpoenaed all the potential people all the proper channels and received all of those phone records and
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then put them together, make put them together cross cross-reference them and put together a a timeline of just
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the phone calls between about anywhere from four to about eight different people.
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And I think you could get a very clear picture or at least a a a very good understanding of the
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movements and maybe who was with who that night. >> I think the problem though too is again
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a guy with a criminal history if he knows some of these other individuals that might have been involved
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it'd be hard to fault him for not naming names because of what these guys are obviously capable
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of. And I don't know if he has children of his own or other family members but that'd be a very tough situation to be
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in even if you just heard rumors, you you don't know for certain who was there. And to give that information to the
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police knowing are the police going to be able to catch these guys before they come after me?
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>> Well, and you're exactly right, and we're going to see this throughout the the remainder of
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this investigation, and reminder, it's not completely solved. This is not a solved case
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that we are talking about here today. And >> actually solved, right? >> Yeah, if we want to if we want to call
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it that, but but the thing is, Anthony Watson does name names to the to the police. I don't know if that that
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put puts him in a or paints him in a different light for for people out there, but he does name names. Now,
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the other person that we need to talk about, another central figure in this investigation, is Alexandra
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Kuzeno, who goes by Alex. Now, police questioned this woman, Alex, who would eventually be determined by
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police as the {quote} common denominator between all the persons of interest in the friend group regarding
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anyone's involvement with the murder of the young couple. And so, while we say common denominator, this is going to be
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key here, Captain, because what is quickly understood by police, one thing that they sort out in this
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case is when that DNA evidence on that cigarette butt lead them to Samuel Williams
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and Cameo Petaway, whose DNA was found on that cigarette butt, both of them, they quickly determined that Samuel
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Williams and and Cameo Petaway did not know Lisa Straub, did not know Johnny. That Johnny and Lisa did not know Cameo
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or Samuel Williams. So, there has to be these two just didn't show up randomly in the middle of
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the night and kick in the door and attack these people and kill them in the way that the horrible way that they were
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killed. Nobody believes that. The evidence suggests otherwise. Police said from the beginning they
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believed based off of the evidence and the circumstances surrounding the case that the killers were known
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to our victims. And so, we need someone to 6° of Kevin Bacon, right? We need somebody that is
00:16:01
degree number one, two, and three from Johnny and Lisa to connect us to these persons that the DNA is found in
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their home. And police say that this person could be Alexandra Kouzena. So, they say that she may be the common
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denominator between all the persons of interest in the friend group and persons regarding this double homicide. So, Alex
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is an of interest to the police very early on for several reasons. One, she had a falling out with Johnny
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over the purchase of a dog and a car. So, in October of 2010, remember they're killed in 2011, late January.
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Johnny and Lisa agreed to buy a puppy off of this Alex Kouzena. And the as the story goes,
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they agreed to pay her $100 for the puppy, but only paid her $50. So, she's upset about this.
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And the the three of them have words over this a couple of times, but as the story goes, she eventually they
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eventually make up that they let bygones be bygones, right? Then, sometime around Thanksgiving, this
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may be have been just before just after Thanksgiving. Now, unfortunately, we only have Alex
00:17:29
here to tell us her side of the story. She claims that Johnny was constantly trying to talk her into buying his car.
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Johnny has a Dodge Stratus, and he, according to Alex, wanted to sell it to her for $1,500 cash.
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Now, we do know that Johnny did not have a vehicle at the time of the homicide. So, this will kind of explain away why
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he does not have a vehicle. The The flip side of this story, and we we have to kind of sort this out and
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figure out who we believe here, is Johnny's friends and family say, "No, no, no, no, no. She talked him into
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selling her the car. It wasn't Johnny that was constantly asking her to buy it."
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She talked him into it. So, two very different opinions of the same situation. >> Different accounts, yeah.
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>> So, in her interview with police, with the with the same detective that interviewed Tony Watson, Samuel
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Williams, and Tiffany Williams, she tells police that that Johnny relentlessly pressured her to buy the
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vehicle, despite the fact that she wasn't really interested, but she, you know, was a was
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friends with him and needed a car anyway, so she agreed to buy the vehicle from him. And she says she paid him $750
00:18:53
cash, and promised that he that she would pay him the other 750 either in payments, installments, or
00:19:04
or at another time. Now, the way that this goes down is Johnny doesn't sign over the title to
00:19:12
her. So, this would be possible further proof that yes, she was supposed to pay him
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the additional money. >> Right. >> However, in December, she So, she has the car for a very short period of time.
00:19:29
And she gets into this big argument with Johnny about the vehicle. And so, what John What she's saying is
00:19:40
that all the the car was was in really bad shape. I had it for a short period of time. The tire fell off.
00:19:47
She's saying that the car breaks down, so she doesn't want to pay for the rest of it. Meanwhile,
00:19:52
others are saying that Johnny was angry with her because she wouldn't pay him the rest of the money.
00:19:57
>> Right. >> What ends up happening is Johnny's parents get involved. And they are not happy about this whole car
00:20:05
situation. They think that Alex duped him out of the vehicle. And probably was trying to get him to
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sign over the title so she wouldn't have to pay him the extra 750. And then she recklessly drives this
00:20:21
thing, so it breaks down. Now, maybe not on purpose, but she's driving in a manner that you wouldn't drive
00:20:27
uh an older car. So, there was damage to the vehicle. That's not a question, and
00:20:32
we know that because once Johnny's parents get involved, and guess what? Once you get the law involved, whoever's
00:20:38
name's on the title has rightful ownership to that vehicle, regardless of what exchanged hands or what agreement
00:20:44
that you had. >> Yeah, so is law enforcement looking at this as a possible motive?
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>> Uh yes, and here's why. So, law enforcement they they go out to uh Alex, and they take the vehicle from
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her and return it to Johnny. >> Right. >> And so, now after that takes place, no
00:21:02
more money exchanges hands. She wants her $750 back. Johnny wants the car fixed because she
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she busted up the car. So, both of them are not happy. Well, the reason why this becomes
00:21:17
possible motive, it's not so much about the car. It's not so much about the puppy. It's not so
00:21:23
much about the money that's owed. It's the bad blood that's brewing between the two of them.
00:21:30
Because we we know that that Alex We have several people in this case who said under oath
00:21:39
that they had knowledge that Alex threatened Johnny's life on more than one occasion.
00:21:49
So, she threatens and and one of the threats is very specific saying, "If you don't give me my $750
00:21:57
back, I'm going to send a couple guys over to your house to kill you and Lisa." Well,
00:22:05
this becomes of interest obviously to police because >> Yeah. >> to Johnny and Lisa. Yeah. This happens
00:22:12
to Johnny and Lisa less than 60 days after these threats first start. "I'm going to send a couple guys over
00:22:21
there to kill you and Lisa." Uh It looks like somebody may have sent a couple guys over to the Straubs house
00:22:28
the night that they were killed. >> Right. Yeah, because like we've said before in
00:22:34
the previous few episodes, a motive is not that clear. Yeah, it's a nice house. Maybe there was
00:22:42
some rumors that her her family kept money in the house or possibly a safe, but no evidence of that.
00:22:51
And maybe the other possibility is that they either had drugs or were going to get drugs or
00:22:58
had money for drugs and maybe that would be the possibly the the the motive um And then you hear in the one
00:23:07
interrogation that we talked about um on part three is possibly the idea that it look in this scenario you go well
00:23:17
this guy screwed me out of a car so I'm going to send over these thugs to to kill you and that is actually the motive
00:23:24
but they tell the guys going over all there's money in the house. So that's how you're going to get paid.
00:23:32
>> Yeah well yeah we >> some of these guys that were down on their luck and trying to
00:23:37
turn around their life thought that this was an opportunity for a big score to start changing
00:23:43
things. >> Yeah and and we've seen this in other cases too right? You you get these other
00:23:50
persons involved and you say look I need you to go over to this place and do this
00:23:54
thing for me. Who knows maybe it was just they were just supposed to scare him and beat him
00:23:59
up. I'll cut you in on that 50 that I get back or you know I'll pay you x amount of
00:24:06
dollars to to carry this out for me and then what's the smart criminal going to say to the other smart criminal?
00:24:13
Where the hell did you get that kind of money? And then then we go I I don't have that money.
00:24:22
But your payment is in the Strobh household. It's inside that house. So you carry this out for me I'll help
00:24:29
set this thing up. I'll make sure that they're there and I'll make sure that you get whatever money's in that house
00:24:34
or we split it. So what we do know is that the cigarette butt collected at the house contained a
00:24:43
mix of two male DNA profiles. When investigators enter those profiles into CODIS into the CODIS system they get a
00:24:50
match to two existing samples in that database. Cameo Pettaway and Samuel Todd Williams.
00:24:58
Samuel Todd Williams is arrested for the murders of Lisa Straub and Johnny Clark
00:25:03
on January 31st, 2011 and 11 when they were killed, but he's not arrested until months and months later.
00:25:11
Um ironically, he's picked up while he's out running to the store to buy a pack of
00:25:16
cigarettes. And he's 24 years old at the time and he actually tells police he thought he was
00:25:22
being arrested for other reasons. Remember, he's he's got a lengthy criminal history.
00:25:29
So, he says, "Look, I don't know nothing about no murders." Well, then why do you
00:25:34
think we picked you up and why do you think we arrest you? He goes, "Oh, well, I think I thought it was for some other
00:25:39
uh you know, I he had a domestic violence warrant out against him. Um he also says that his assumption was
00:25:48
that he has a promoting prostitution charge in which he's involved in and he thinks
00:25:55
that it could be one or both of those reasons that the police they basically surround him in unmarked cars and
00:26:02
ununiformed officers [music] and they take him down on the street. >> [music] [music]
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ladies and gents. Cheers to you, [music] Colonel, and cheers to the people in the back.
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>> Cheers to you, Captain. When you When I say something like ununiformed officers,
00:28:40
that makes it sound like they're just running the streets nude. >> Negative. Yeah.
00:28:43
>> It's It's plainclothes. Uh they were wearing plainclothes. >> Uh well, it gives a new definition to
00:28:50
Billy Club. >> I'll tell you, you see nude individuals running at you with guns, be scared. All right.
00:28:57
>> Yeah, nice Billy Club you got there. >> You'd have to be too smart to be scared
00:29:01
in that situation. So, like we had said earlier, when Samuel Todd Williams sits down with police,
00:29:09
I got a whole different perspective on this guy than I got from somebody like >> Anthony Watson.
00:29:16
>> Or even from Tiffany Williams. Like Tiffany Williams to me doesn't seem smart enough to
00:29:22
I think that she's lucky in this situation by either being confused, being confused by her drug addiction, or
00:29:33
that she can just play dumb. Because she she gives unclear evidence and unclear statements and timelines to
00:29:40
the police, and I think that that really convoluted the whole situation for police when talking to somebody like
00:29:46
Tiffany Williams. Samuel Williams, who we looked to try to see if there's any relationship between the two
00:29:54
because the last names are the same, there is none that's ever reported, and I believe that if they were somehow
00:30:02
related to one another, I get it, it's a common name, but these are the checks and balances we try to run here in the
00:30:07
garage. That I believe this would have been reported on. Uh police would have would
00:30:13
have said that another common denominator is this Tiffany Williams person. Now, Tiffany Williams
00:30:21
and Samuel Williams and Cameo Pettaway, they all know Alexandra as well. So, you you have your common
00:30:30
denominators here are Alex and Tiffany Williams. That's your hop, skip, and a jump that
00:30:38
takes you from victim to the two persons arrested with the DNA. Now, when they're talking to him,
00:30:44
Captain, I get a different vibe on him and the vibe I get on him is this is a dude
00:30:50
that's probably in everyday normal life, probably pretty dumb, uh makes very bad decisions,
00:30:57
commits terrible crimes, overall bad dude, but guess what? He's probably a fairly smart criminal and a career
00:31:04
criminal. And he's he he seems to me to be the type that's old school in the way that I'm never going
00:31:11
to admit to anything, I'm never going to rat on anybody, anytime the cops talk to
00:31:16
me about anything at all, my answer is I don't know. My answer is I don't Is Is it daytime? I don't know. What's the
00:31:23
date? Don't know. I don't know anything. >> Yeah, and it's it's difficult because you don't want to
00:31:29
call these jackasses intelligent, but it's almost maybe not even intelligence as much as it's just
00:31:36
disciplined. You ask me a question, my answer is always no. You ask me You ask me if the sky is blue, I don't
00:31:44
know. I don't even know what the sky is. >> So, when he's talked questioned by detectives about the murder
00:31:51
and asked if there's any bad blood between him and the couple, Sam, of course, is saying, "I don't know
00:31:57
them. I've never been to that house." And he asserts that he stays on the side on the east side of Toledo.
00:32:05
That he's he's Toledo east side, he doesn't go to the south side or he doesn't go to the west side.
00:32:13
And at some point, Sam repeatedly tells the detectives that he doesn't want to talk. He does ask for his attorney.
00:32:19
Uh authorities reveal around this time that his DNA has been matched to a Newport cigarette, a Newport brand
00:32:27
cigarette butt that was found at the murder scene and that his DNA was mixed with another individual's and they know
00:32:34
that individual to be Cameo Pettaway. And Cameo Petaway is a known friend and associate of Sam Williams.
00:32:43
And the two have been known to share cigarettes. There were multiple people that confirmed this that the two on
00:32:48
occasion would share a cigarette. This one confirmed by the mother of Samuel Williams' child, one of his sons,
00:32:57
who verifies that not only had she seen the two split a cigarette in the past, but also that Newport was the preferred
00:33:05
brand of both Sam and Cameo. So, Petaway's also charged. Cameo's also charged with the double homicide. Then
00:33:15
the two men are scheduled to be tried separately, but with the trials held simultaneously
00:33:21
in the same court. Now, what this the short of it is, Captain, is that Sam is arraigned
00:33:29
via video and pleads not guilty to two counts of murder and two counts of aggravated burglary. His bond is set at
00:33:36
$5 million. At his arraignment, Lisa's family requests that Sam face the death death penalty if convicted of the
00:33:43
murders, to which the state eventually agrees. So, here here's the tricky part. During his interview, Sam struggled to
00:33:53
remember his whereabouts on the night of the crime. But keep in mind, he's being he's never
00:33:59
questioned until he's arrested. Why? Because they had nothing connecting victim to Sam Williams
00:34:06
>> he wasn't he didn't seem to be a friend. He didn't seem >> to be an acquaintance.
00:34:13
Nobody in their circle, the victim's circle, had this guy on their radar. >> So,
00:34:24
I believe Sam Williams when he says, "I don't know those people." I think he didn't know them until that night. I
00:34:30
don't believe him when he says, "I was never at that house. I think he knew them after he had
00:34:35
entered that house. But, he's not spoken to by police until eight months after approximately eight months after the
00:34:43
crimes. And so, he of course he's not going to be able to Look, he's two situations. That's all we have here
00:34:52
for Sam Williams. Either he's going to provide attempt to provide an alibi and and lie because he
00:34:58
was in fact at the straw home and responsible in these crimes. Or two, he wasn't there and it's eight months
00:35:06
later and he's going to have difficulty sorting out where he was and who he was with.
00:35:12
Right. So, he eventually he reviews his own phone records >> [snorts] >> and talks with
00:35:21
family and friends and checks on his own social media. He's trying to figure out
00:35:25
where he was that night if he wasn't involved or establish some kind of fake alibi if he
00:35:32
was involved. And what he comes up with is he says he was at the Bottom Line, which is a bar located at 2053 Star
00:35:41
Avenue in Toledo. This is on the east side. Now, depending on which route you take,
00:35:47
there's a few different common routes that one may take. It's approximately 24 minutes to 29 minutes
00:35:55
away from Longacre Lane. I'm pointing that out because the the timeline here gets real tight.
00:36:02
Real tight uh with some of the evidence that we have in the case. So, he says he's at
00:36:07
the Bottom Line, which is a bar, and he's watching the Pro Bowl. The NFL Pro Bowl.
00:36:13
He mentions several other people who he says can confirm that he's there. Now, keep in mind he's giving this
00:36:20
interview October 28th to the detectives. He says that Larry Gillhouse was one of the persons that was there at
00:36:28
the Bottom Line with him that night. He also says that Eddie Flores was there with him as well
00:36:37
as Destiny Madrid. So, police talked to Larry Gilhouse and he says that he was there that night. And
00:36:49
this is what he tells the police. He says, "Look, Sam was at a party at my house for my daughter
00:36:56
earlier that evening, the night of the murders. And he says he specifically remembers seeing being
00:37:04
there for a multitude of reasons, but one, that Sam was the only one who stayed to help him clean up.
00:37:10
Now, I believe that the two are cousins and he says after we cleaned up from the
00:37:15
party, we went over to the bar to watch the bowl game, the Pro Bowl. And he says that Gilhouse says the same
00:37:27
thing that Samuel Williams tells them, that they stayed late, they closed down the bar.
00:37:33
Uh and typically, I'm guessing this bar would be a 2:00, 2:30 a.m. kind of deal.
00:37:39
>> Right. >> Um I've looked it up. It's It's not one of those mom-and-pop operations that
00:37:45
close at 9:00 or 10:00. Now, the other thing that that is tricky here is one key time in our timeline has always been
00:37:53
that 10:41 p.m. call from Tiffany Williams to our victim, Johnny, who Tiffany's saying that she hears that
00:38:04
the intrusion, the home invasion is taking place at 10:41. I I did a little record checking here on this Pro Bowl
00:38:16
because I was super suspicious of this whole Pro Bowl situation. >> Yeah, it seems like they're making a big
00:38:22
deal out of this Pro Bowl, but it's not like everybody that likes professional football loves the Pro Bowl.
00:38:29
>> So, the Pro Bowl ended at approximately 10:45 p.m. that night. So, that would be
00:38:34
after the 10:41 Tiffany call that's always been a big part of this case. Now, the reason why
00:38:43
our timeline gets so tight here with this possible alibi is one thing that we cannot dismiss because it's
00:38:51
it it's data telling us that there was a phone call made on Sam's phone at 10:27 p.m. that pinged off of a cell
00:39:02
phone tower near the Bottom Line bar. So, he would be at 10:27 p.m. his phone, I can't say where Sam was,
00:39:12
but his phone was 24 to 29 minutes away from Long Acre Lane where the two were killed.
00:39:22
This call to me is all kinds of strange because part of his alibi is he's at the Bottom
00:39:30
Line bar with these three other individuals. He closes the bar down with a couple of them, and then later he is
00:39:39
hanging out with this Destiny Madrid girl for the early morning hours of the following day. You know, they're going
00:39:47
to party all night together. But, the phone call that puts his phone so many miles away from the
00:39:54
from the crime scene and in a time frame that doesn't leave enough time for him to get there to be
00:40:01
there at 10:41 p.m. That call is a call with Destiny Madrid, one of the people that he says he's already hanging
00:40:10
out with. So, we know he's not already hanging out with her. >> Right. >> What we end up What we end up learning
00:40:16
is that the explanation given is that oh, she was on her way. He was calling to see when she would get there. You
00:40:23
know, where are you? I thought we were hanging out. And so, she's making her way to the bar at that time.
00:40:29
So, these this explanation, this alibi ultimately are not believed by the police.
00:40:38
And I've heard some people >> It's hard to [clears throat] believe it because you have his DNA at the crime
00:40:45
scene. >> Exactly. Ex- That's That's where the >> DNA at the crime scene, then you go,
00:40:50
"Well, this story is maybe plausible." >> There's some people that have said, "You
00:40:55
know what? He couldn't have got there that fast in that time." Um the Look, let's be clear here. The cell phone
00:41:01
tower records put him near the They don't We can't We can't use that data to put his ass on
00:41:08
a bar stool at the Bottom Line >> Right. >> bar. All we can say is that his cell phone
00:41:15
was in the area of a tower near the Bottom Line bar. Could he Could he have already been in a riding shotgun in a
00:41:21
vehicle driving away from the Bottom Line bar at that time? Or or away from the area of the Bottom Line? Yes.
00:41:29
That would put him at Long Acre Lane right around the 10:41 period time period. Yeah, if if
00:41:37
>> Time of the murder. >> You know, I'm thinking that late at night that late at night, he's There's
00:41:44
probably little to no traffic at all of Toledo's any I mean, Columbus is a much bigger city than Toledo, and it's a It's
00:41:51
damn near a ghost town at 10:00 at night on a Sunday. You You can move pretty quick through
00:41:57
our city at 10:00 p.m. on a Sunday night. And so, could he have already been in a
00:42:05
vehicle making its way there? I believe so, because for all the people that that get on to police here and say
00:42:11
look, you use cell phone information to put a suspect at a crime scene, but when the
00:42:17
cell phone information tells you that they were elsewhere, you you dismiss it and
00:42:23
but the problem here is we don't have to fully explain all of the cell phone information.
00:42:30
You don't have even have to get to that [ __ ] until after you fully explain the DNA
00:42:36
information. The DNA puts him in the Strob house. If he cannot if that cannot be explained away or proven to be
00:42:44
incorrect, then we don't even have to get to the cell phone information because guess
00:42:49
what? I can hand my cell phone off to Destiny Madrid and she can make calls and do walk around town with it and hop
00:42:56
in cars and go to bars and have a great time with my cell phone while I'm across
00:43:00
town doing unspeakable acts inside of that home. >> Yeah, and I think the problem with law
00:43:06
enforcement is what is the DNA connected to cuz his his DNA is not found on the victims, it's not found on other items
00:43:15
in the house. It's found on a cigarette butt. And so he's going, well, I can explain that
00:43:22
away because that item could have been brought to the scene. >> So this Pro Bowl
00:43:30
alibi has bothered me big time and I and here's why. Captain, you and I are very big fans of
00:43:38
the NFL. In fact, last night we must have traded a dozen texts in the middle of a game and guess what? We're watching
00:43:44
it. We're both watching the same game. Neither of us really care for either we're not big fans of either of the
00:43:50
teams playing. We're just very much into the NFL. >> Uh-huh. >> Do you give Do you care at all about the
00:43:58
Pro Bowl? When's the last time have you watched a Pro Bowl? >> No, never. >> I cannot recall the last time I watched
00:44:06
a Pro Bowl >> watch one. I don't know when. Last time I watched one captain and I
00:44:11
can't even put a date on it, but this will tell you about how long ago it was. I was in Gardo's Pizza on Broadway.
00:44:19
>> Yeah. >> And the most I thought the most entertaining part of the Pro Bowl was
00:44:23
the Dr. Pepper halftime uh extra point kicker field goal kick if the if that if that civilian kicked the
00:44:31
ball through the uprights that they won like a million dollars or something. >> Right.
00:44:36
>> And that that description to you now our listeners don't know it any of what that
00:44:42
means, but wouldn't that you believe that that's probably 20 years ago that this really big NFL fan watched a Pro
00:44:49
Bowl? The reason why I have a problem with this Pro Bowl thing is that Johnny was
00:44:53
at his friend's house watching the Pro Bowl. That is not in question. What's in question is what was Sam Williams doing
00:45:00
that night and is his alibi of being at a bar watching the Pro Bowl, does it hold any weight?
00:45:07
And I've cannot believe that there is a story out there in 2011 that two people of this young of an age
00:45:17
both that care so much to watch the Pro Bowl. Now, could I be wrong? Absolutely.
00:45:21
But But >> But in his defense, it could be I was at a bar and the Pro Bowl happened to be on.
00:45:30
Right. And I think he probably didn't care that much. He probably is like you. Whatever happened at halftime was
00:45:36
probably more important than the the whole entire game. >> Exactly. But people site
00:45:43
the specificity of his alibi. The details he's able to provide just not not just what he was doing, but
00:45:51
here's my movements and here's the details and here's three other individuals to back this all up.
00:45:56
People's people highlight [snorts] that and say that it is suggestive that this alibi is is
00:46:04
true. And I agree with that thought. However, off the wrench that I want to throw into that to this equation
00:46:17
is I spoke to several people that know Johnny. That knew Johnny very well. And I said, he told you he was at a
00:46:25
friend's house watching the Pro Bowl? Yes, he even told me that the two friends he was watching it with.
00:46:31
I said we know that Tiffany Williams was in constant contact based off of the phone records with Johnny that night.
00:46:38
Are you of the opinion that if asked what he was doing that Johnny would offer up that information to Tiffany
00:46:44
Williams? Would he offer up that information to Anthony Watson who we know he was in
00:46:49
contact with that night? And everybody said yes. He was Johnny was pretty much an open book. Hey, what
00:46:55
are you doing? Oh, I'm at so-and-so's house. We're watching the Pro Bowl. After this, I'm going to go pick up Lisa
00:47:00
and we're going to head back to her place. The reason why I'm I'm highlighting that
00:47:05
Captain is because I think that if Tiffany Williams wasn't at that home when they were killed
00:47:11
or in the home that night, that she had knowledge of what was going on, what took place inside of that home. And we
00:47:19
know that based off of her statement to the family. This is before anybody even arrives on the scene. That she saw that
00:47:25
the place had been ransacked which could not physically have happened unless she
00:47:30
was in the home or had knowledge from someone who was in the home at that that night.
00:47:34
>> Yeah, so just to just to make that perfectly clear for everybody listening, Tiffany Williams tells the parents
00:47:41
before the cops or anybody shows up at the crime scene that the house was ransacked. When the police get there and
00:47:48
the police go there multiple times, they have they find no evidence to give them
00:47:53
probable cause to enter that property. If they would have been able to see through any window that the house was
00:48:00
possibly ransacked, they would have had probable cause and they would have been been able to enter that property and
00:48:07
that never happened. >> Correct. And because they never entered the home, they they couldn't because
00:48:11
nobody could see inside the house. So then she has to have knowledge. She's privy to knowledge that that nobody else
00:48:19
was at that at that scene at that time. So she's privy to that knowledge prior to
00:48:26
going to the scene with the cops and her and the parents. Now, the reason why I'm bringing that all up
00:48:34
is because I believe that there were a couple people, one if not maybe two, people that were keeping tabs on Johnny
00:48:41
that day and that night. Whoever wanted to carry this out, they wanted to carry it out in Strob home.
00:48:50
And they wanted Johnny to be there. And so if Johnny so willingly offered up this information, I'm over at
00:48:58
so-and-so's house watching the Pro Bowl. I won't be home until I pick up Lisa when she gets off work at 10:00.
00:49:06
If we have multiple people telling us that he would willingly give up that information to others,
00:49:12
there's no reason to not believe that he may have told Tiffany Williams that, that he may have told Zach that who he
00:49:18
was in contact with, and and or that he may have told Anthony Watson that. And the reason why I'm saying that, Captain,
00:49:24
is because guess what? If I am the third party, if I'm the muscle, if I'm Sam Williams, Cameo Petaway, and
00:49:36
I'm waiting on the call, waiting on the call for you to tell me it's go time. We got to get to Longacre
00:49:43
Lane. It's not that far of a stretch to believe that there was another phone call or communication where someone
00:49:49
says, "He's not at home. He's at he's watching the Pro Bowl. And if I'm the muscle waiting on that
00:49:56
and now 8 months later I need an alibi, what's one thing that I know that took place that night?
00:50:02
The Pro Bowl. Because I remember being told, oh, we going we're going to have to wait. He's
00:50:06
busy watching the Pro Bowl. And I I think that that somewhere in this maybe this alibi, the
00:50:15
genesis of this alibi started with information that Sam Williams had before Lisa and Johnny were killed.
00:50:23
Now, we're going to get into some phone call information here and this is the time in the show, look,
00:50:31
we're we're not a kid-friendly show. It's E for explicit, not E for everyone rated on this show. Uh and so if you got
00:50:38
young ones in the vehicle or you don't want to hear words yourself, uh it's time to earmuff up uh like they say in
00:50:44
old school. Earmuff up. But uh >> I forgot about that. >> First of all, earmuffs.
00:50:50
>> Earmuffs. Earmuffs. >> Here Here's something that's going to make Alex not look so good. Okay?
00:50:58
So, she's in a squabble with somebody else. Somebody not related to this case at
00:51:05
all. But this person gives this information to the police and this is not going to look good for her.
00:51:11
She's in a squabble with somebody else and this is about a week after. Okay, let's Here we go.
00:51:18
I Here's I found the information in my notes here. So, we're talking about Alexandra
00:51:22
Kuszynow, her possible involvement. And and in fact, when police are talking to Anthony Watson, Anthony Watson tells the
00:51:30
police that he believes that Johnny bought Percocets off of someone named Peanut.
00:51:37
And he knows who Peanut is. Peanut's a nickname, but he gives Peanut's real name to the police and he says, "Look, I
00:51:43
believe that from what I've heard, Johnny owed Peanut some money, maybe a bunch of money.
00:51:49
But the police are like, "Well, do you think that Peanut would would be involved would get take
00:51:55
retaliation or go to collect his money?" And Watson says, "No, I don't think that
00:52:01
Peanut would retaliate even if there was money that was owed because he knew of several other individuals
00:52:07
that were still alive and well that owed money to Peanut." >> Right. >> And this is this is months after this is
00:52:13
about 2 months after the the homicides. Now, what what will what Anthony Watson does supply police with
00:52:21
is that he says that he heard that Alexander Kusenow was involved. Uh AP's ex-girlfriend. So, AP is another
00:52:32
nickname. He tells police that he believes that there were at least four people involved.
00:52:38
And then what we end up finding out is that this Alexander Kusenow the woman who's the common denominator
00:52:48
determined to be the common denominator by police less than 24 hours after the bodies were discovered
00:52:54
we find out that she sent a text message to someone that she's in a squabble with
00:52:59
that says "I do this [ __ ] fam. Watch the news, [ __ ] [ __ ] get duct taped and tied up and left for
00:53:09
dead." That's her text message to somebody else that she's in a fight with and it and
00:53:15
has beef with less than 24 hours after the bodies were discovered. >> is her bragging that she killed them.
00:53:22
This is a confession. >> Yeah, so Anthony Watson tells authorities of a conversation that he
00:53:27
had weeks before he's picked up and questioned with a woman who is not identified in any
00:53:34
reporting source that I could find. He says the woman in this conversation placed herself at the scene of the
00:53:40
crime. He also alleges that Sam Williams and another man named Dro and a second woman were present at the
00:53:48
murder. The four had broken into the Straub residence seeking a safe that was rumored to be in the home.
00:53:54
And one thing we need to be clear about him potentially implicating multiple people
00:54:01
in this crime, Watson does tell police admits to fearing for his own safety and that of
00:54:06
his family. Now, the other phone calls, Captain, Sam Williams, once he's in jail waiting
00:54:14
trial, you know, they record those calls. Well, Sam makes a phone call and and tells a relative, "I [ __ ] up.
00:54:24
I'm going to be in here for a long time." Now, he will go to trial. Sam will go to
00:54:30
trial and at his trial, this is presented by the prosecution as an admission of guilt.
00:54:36
And he says, "No, that's simply taken out of context." There was also another possible
00:54:42
incriminating phone call that is made. This is in April of 2012. This is when Sam Williams, still in jail waiting
00:54:51
trial, calls Steven Petteway. Steven Petteway is the brother of the alleged accomplice Cameo Petteway, who's also
00:54:58
arrested for the double murder. And on this call, Sam says to Steven, quote, "That was supposed to be me and
00:55:06
you, but you know, little bro had to step up to take your spot, man. You know, he didn't do it right like I
00:55:13
would have done it." Oh, sorry. Steven responds to Sam saying, "You know, he didn't do it
00:55:18
right like I would have done it." To which Sam replies, "No, but he did it good enough to make something happen."
00:55:24
>> Well, they all sound like real pieces of [ __ ] >> sounds like it was supposed to be
00:55:28
Steven, Cameo's older brother, who was super tight. The everything I could find, Captain,
00:55:34
suggests that Sam and Steven were like best friends. >> Right. >> And that Cameo is Steven's little
00:55:40
brother. And that he was that Sam and Cameo were tight as well. And a lot of times the three of them
00:55:48
would would run together. But I think that Steven may have been locked up for something at this time.
00:55:53
And so if somebody was looking to hire muscle, Sam and Cameo got the job, not Sam and
00:56:00
Steven. And so again, the prosecution at trial saying this is further indication that he's
00:56:07
implicating himself in these crimes and Cameo as well. But Sam says, "Look, this was
00:56:15
this was taken out of context as well. That this was this was in reference to their
00:56:23
the three of them were kind of running this prostitution ring together. And we know that because all three of
00:56:30
them had been arrested at different times for promoting prostitution. >> Right. >> And I know that a lot of people don't
00:56:35
like to hear that word, but that's that's the term that's the word and term that's used in the charges. So that's
00:56:41
what >> Yeah, that's the legal >> That's the term we're using. Yes. So he says that that is he's referencing
00:56:49
like Cameo was doing a good job helping us run this ring, but he wasn't making enough he wasn't making enough money. He
00:56:55
should have been making more money. He was doing good, but he could have done it better.
00:56:59
Well, I mean, we can't we can't sit here and claim to know 100% that that's not truth, but it also seems pretty logical
00:57:07
that he may have been referring to the murders as well in these conversations. >> So even though that we believe that
00:57:13
there's four maybe more people involved, uh maybe even a lookout person, maybe a
00:57:20
contact person for all the different individuals, law enforcement is able to charge and
00:57:27
bring two individuals to trial. They're not going to be tried together, but they're going to be tried at the
00:57:35
same time. >> And in the same courtroom. And the weird thing here is they're using that same
00:57:42
evidence against both of these individuals, the cigarette butt. Uh Sam Williams' DNA found on it, Cameo
00:57:47
Pettaway's DNA found on that same cigarette butt that was found at the crime scene.
00:57:51
Now, police were trying to move on other suspects as well, especially Alex or Alexandra.
00:58:00
But I think that they believed once they had this evidence that put Sam and Cameo
00:58:05
at the crime scene that that those two would start talking. Unfortunately, neither of them confessed
00:58:11
to anything and did not implicate anybody else in the crimes, either. And then to further complicate issues,
00:58:18
Cameo Pettaway, his case gets tossed. So, the judge says that the only evidence they have on
00:58:28
Cameo is that cigarette butt. Nothing else. Nobody's saying that they even heard that he was there. He's not
00:58:34
implicated himself in any form or fashion. Where with Sam Williams, they have other evidence against him.
00:58:41
So, the judge tosses Pettaway's case for lack of evidence. Don't get onto the judge about this
00:58:49
because if if you take Cameo Pettaway to trial and he's found innocent, you can't try him
00:58:54
again. The judge isn't saying Cameo Pettaway didn't do this. The judge is saying you
00:59:00
need to have a stronger case against this individual to have it in my courtroom.
00:59:06
But the judge determines that there's enough evidence against Sam Williams. And part of this evidence is those phone
00:59:13
calls. Part of the evidence is individuals saying that they had heard that Sam Williams was involved.
00:59:19
And then part of the evidence also will be what the captain hates the most, a jailhouse snitch.
00:59:26
So, this individual his last name is uh Yingling. So, it's Eric Yingling. He will testify in court
00:59:36
that not only did Williams confess the to the crimes to him, that that Williams also provided a lot
00:59:44
of detail about the murders, right, and that he had information given to him by Sam Williams that
00:59:55
would have only been known to the killers or law enforcement. And part of that information was
01:00:03
something at the crime scene. Remember we talked about that expensive jewelry in the home was not taken by the
01:00:11
perpetrators. And also all of that Iraqi currency that I believe there was like $4,500 in
01:00:17
several different envelopes that was all Iraqi currency. And that Sam Williams had told Yingling
01:00:25
something to the effect of, you know, Yingling when when when Williams is telling him about the crimes,
01:00:31
according to Yingling, you know, he wants to know, well, did you ever find the safe or how much money did you find
01:00:36
in the house? And Williams tells him, well, the only large amount of money that we
01:00:41
found in the home was this Saddam Hussein money that we couldn't do anything with, so we left it.
01:00:47
And at the time at the trial, it was believed that that was information that would have only been known to the
01:00:53
Strobs, to police, and to the killers. And they used this information against Sam Williams along with the other
01:01:02
information that we've already gone through. Now, I do want to be clear here that it
01:01:06
was late it's there has been later the accuracy of of that information only being privy to
01:01:16
the killer and law enforcement has been called into question for good reason because I believe it was CNN. I know
01:01:24
that it was reported. I believe it was CNN that reported that the Iraqi currency foreign currency
01:01:30
was found in the home. So, somebody watching that news clip or following the case
01:01:39
may have known about that information and could have fed it to the jailhouse snitch England.
01:01:46
So >> again, two people charged basically based off the same evidence, but in one
01:01:52
of the cases they're not going to be be able to use that evidence. So, what is the outcome of these two
01:01:58
trials? >> Well, after hearing from 27 witnesses and reviewing more than 130 exhibits in a four-day trial, we have a
01:02:07
jury of 12 who find Sam Williams guilty of two counts of murder, two counts of kidnapping, and a single count of
01:02:14
aggravated burglary. And he ultimately will get sentenced to two life sentences without the possibility of parole.
01:02:28
So, eventually the death penalty goes away in this case. Now, we do know that the
01:02:35
families or at least the Clark family were big advocates for the death penalty in this situation.
01:02:44
>> Yeah, which is which is understandable in this situation. >> Now, where the case sits today, Captain,
01:02:50
is >> [snorts] >> Samuel Williams is still in prison and the evidence and what some of the
01:02:58
people were telling police is suggestive that there were four persons in the home
01:03:02
that night if not more. And so, who were these other three? And even if you include Cameo Pettaway
01:03:11
whose DNA was found at the scene you still have two people that are not known, not identified, never been charged.
01:03:21
So, the the outstanding theories on the case are that the intruders broke into the
01:03:27
Strob home on on the night of January 30th, 2011 looking for the safe, looking for any money or
01:03:36
even possible drugs that might have been in the home, and that they were So, there was Unfortunately, there was
01:03:48
considerable damage to both Lisa and Johnny that is not from killing them. So, one could believe that maybe they're
01:04:00
being tortured or they're being hit, they're being assaulted to provide information. Where's the
01:04:06
safe? Where's the safe? Where's the money? Where's the money? Um So, the way that the theories work is
01:04:14
that either they were intentionally killed or that the bags were used as some form
01:04:22
of torture to try to get information from them or torture to send a message to them in retaliation for something
01:04:29
else, and that one of them actually one of them accidentally died. And then they had to kill the other one.
01:04:38
That's why we talked about early in this case that that the coroner could not sort out who
01:04:44
died first, and there there was concern with that inside of this case in the investigation.
01:04:54
The other theory is that based off of the interviews with Johnny's friend Tony Anthony Watson,
01:05:01
Tony or Tone Watson, that he was telling the truth, that Anthony Watson told police that a woman
01:05:09
in their circle named Alexander Kusheno, >> Yeah, that witch >> who had a history of having altercations
01:05:15
with Johnny before the murders. That she was involved and she got others involved.
01:05:26
And were responsible for the murders. Some things that occurred to me in this case Captain that we talked
01:05:35
about offline the other day. You know, why would Tiffany make those calls? Why would she get other people
01:05:41
involved after the fact if she set everybody up? If she was making arrangements. And I said one it would be
01:05:47
to explain away why she made the 1041 call at all. >> Right. >> But there's a couple of other reasons
01:05:55
why she may have made these calls. Could she have provided transportation? Could she have been a driver to and from
01:06:01
and that's how she got the knowledge of the house being ransacked before she should have had that before anybody else
01:06:06
had that knowledge? Or did she offer up a vehicle that could be used and she wasn't the driver?
01:06:14
We do know that prior according to her own story before going over to the Stob home that night that she stopped by
01:06:20
another individual's house and was there for about an hour and that she took a borrowed vehicle with her. It was not
01:06:26
Zach's vehicle, it was not her vehicle. Did she simply go over there and hide out for an hour or so and let
01:06:33
somebody some other people's that were at that location use her vehicle? Or use that vehicle that wouldn't have
01:06:41
ties to the individuals occupying the vehicle? >> Right. >> Because again it didn't belong to
01:06:49
Tiffany or Zach. The And here's the other thing for the call, the late night call that ends up
01:06:55
getting in communication with Johnny Clark's parents. I've wondered one of the persons they
01:07:01
tried to call, well, one of the people they did speak to. Remember Zach called Johnny's lifelong friend Reuben.
01:07:11
Reuben is the only reason why this thing gets back to the Clarks at all. And the Clarks showing up that night
01:07:18
calling the police causes all kinds of problems for Tiffany and Zach if they're trying to hide
01:07:23
something. And all the people responsible in this case. I've been wondering if they were really concerned they would
01:07:32
figure out how to call the Clarks. They weren't calling the Clarks. They weren't asking Reuben, "How do we
01:07:39
get in touch with the Clarks?" No, they were talking to Reuben. They were trying to get Reuben to ride
01:07:44
over to the Strob house with them. A peer of Johnny and Lisa's. I'm starting to wonder
01:07:52
were they trying to get this dude back to this crime scene and set him up? Is the muscle still sitting there? Do we
01:07:59
have Sam Williams and Cameo Pettaway splitting a cigarette in the in the closed garage over the Strob home while
01:08:06
they're waiting for Tiffany and Zach to try to bring this innocent back to the home?
01:08:12
>> And maybe he will maybe he will tell us where Yeah. >> No, I think they may have wanted off him
01:08:17
and try to make it look like he was responsible for the murders. >> Right. >> Remember we got the missing knives
01:08:26
from the home? What if they would have, you know, sorry, but what if we would have made
01:08:32
some postmortem stab wounds and and then put some knives on this Reuben kid? >> Yeah.
01:08:38
>> Uh it it it's it's weird that they got anybody else involved and I and I I applaud you for pointing that out early
01:08:45
on in this case, Captain, because it doesn't make sense that if Tiffany was and Zach were involved or knew what
01:08:51
happened that they would alert anybody. Unless their conscience got through them
01:08:56
in a in the short course of 2 hours. But I don't think that it did. I think that these calls and alerting other
01:09:03
people was to either make something else happen, set up this set somebody else up and
01:09:08
frame somebody else, or to explain away their prior actions that they know they cannot hide. The
01:09:15
data, the phone records will always be there. So, you need to explain them away. Now,
01:09:21
regarding Tiffany Williams, in December of 2014, somebody shot fires at somebody fired shots at Tiffany
01:09:29
Williams. Now, she wasn't hit, but what we end up learning is that John and Myte Clark, Johnny's parents, they
01:09:40
are arrested a short period of time after these shots are fired at Tiffany Williams, and they're charged they're
01:09:47
charged with attempted assault >> Really? >> on her. >> Wow. >> And there's no doubt that they that
01:09:54
that John Clark fired those shots at Tiffany Williams. They They have been an open book about
01:10:01
this. They said, "Look, she was involved in the killing of our son and Lisa Straub. We lost our damn minds.
01:10:08
She was never charged with anything. And we we went out looking for her one night
01:10:15
and fired some shots at her. So, they've they've been they've been clean and clear about this. Now, they they both
01:10:20
went to to prison for it. They're both out now, but they this is not something that they
01:10:26
hide from. This is not something that they deny. In fact, this is something that they are shouting from the
01:10:31
mountaintops. There were other people involved in the murder of these two young individuals, and they've nobody
01:10:36
else has been charged. Nobody else has been sentenced. Nobody else is in prison, but this one dude.
01:10:45
>> Yeah, it's a way of putting fear into other individuals, and maybe they thought, "Well,
01:10:51
she is not that bright, and maybe she's the weakest link, and if we can scare her enough, maybe she starts
01:11:00
telling the cops names and and breaking down exactly how this all went down and why it went down.
01:11:08
>> Well, in another update, remember Anthony Watson, Tony or Tone Watson, who told police that he had a conversation
01:11:14
with an unidentified woman who placed herself at the crime scene, who also implicated Sam Williams and
01:11:21
alleged that two others, a man and another woman, were also involved. And guess what? The DNA at the scene
01:11:29
is telling us that that this information could be correct, that there was a a female perpetrator involved,
01:11:37
at least one female perpetrator, if not two, and we know that there were at least
01:11:43
two different male DNAs found, because we know they charged but then dropped the charge against Cameo. So, Watson's
01:11:50
information to police could be correct. And we had mentioned that this information,
01:11:57
his cooperation with police, he he told them that he he was afraid for his life and for that of his families after
01:12:04
providing this information, they do hook him up. His His felony count that he was
01:12:09
facing on a on a completely unrelated case was reduced to a misdemeanor. Uh and he only ended up receiving
01:12:16
probation for that uh when he played guilty to that charge. We also don't know if if the prosecutor or law
01:12:23
enforcement had intended to drop it to a misdemeanor all all along, and this was
01:12:29
just icing on the cake. You get his cooperation for something you were already going to do anyway.
01:12:35
But, that information, his cooperation, may have come at a high price. He was killed. He was fatally shot outside of
01:12:42
his apartment in September of 2018. So, an unknown assailant or assailants gunned him down near his apartment in
01:12:52
Toledo, Ohio. He shot He shot in the leg. He calls 911 to report that he's been shot. And while
01:13:02
he's still laying there waiting on emergency services to show up, he calls his mother.
01:13:09
And he later dies at the hospital and he's he's dying on the phone call to his mom.
01:13:16
He was only 30 years old at the time of his death and as far as I could find, Captain, there's officially there's been
01:13:22
no suspects identified and his murder remains unsolved. Cameo Pettaway, who's who got lucky in the judge tossed his
01:13:33
case in this double homicide, he gets picked up in 2012 for beating up a girlfriend. He's convicted of that
01:13:40
charge. He gets 6 years in prison for that. He gets out and he's not out for long because in 2020
01:13:48
he's accused in a shooting. A gun assault that takes place. Now, I looked for an update on his case and as
01:13:58
far as I could find, the information that's most up-to-date is 2023 February. >> Right.
01:14:05
>> And I could not figure out if he had been convicted of that charge or if he was still waiting
01:14:10
trial. Now, in the end, Alexandra Cousinau did submit DNA. Refused to take a polygraph but did agree to give her DNA
01:14:23
to the detectives. We know that there had been unknown male and female DNA found on Johnny's sweat
01:14:29
inside of Johnny's sweatpants pockets. We talked about the the removing of the wallet.
01:14:35
But what we do know is that when this DNA comes back and it doesn't match Alexandra Cousinau's, police decide to
01:14:43
not charge her with any crime. It looks to me, though, as if she remains a suspect, strong suspect in this case.
01:14:51
Now, how do we solve this case? I think this case is very solvable and it helps that
01:14:57
you have one of the persons responsible already in prison, but I don't know if this dude Williams is ever going to
01:15:03
talk. If If he's going to spend the rest of his life in prison, he doesn't want to be labeled a snitch.
01:15:09
So, how do you solve this case? I think it's There's three easy answers here. One or all three could lead you to the
01:15:17
the answers you're seeking. One is as we've said a couple times in this case, subpoena all the phone records.
01:15:24
Right? At the very least you need Johnny's, Sam Williams, Tiffany Williams, Anthony Watson, and Alexander
01:15:29
Cousinau. And probably Fat Zach's as well. And Lisa Strobs. If you had all those
01:15:36
phone records and you put them together, cut and paste those babies and put them
01:15:40
into sequential order, you might have a much more clear understanding of that night.
01:15:47
The other The other item that I would work heavily on if I'm an investigator is identifying this individual that is
01:15:53
referred to as Dro. We don't know this person's real name, but he comes up multiple times from multiple different
01:16:00
sources when people were talking to police, Dro. Even Anthony Watson said that Dro may
01:16:06
have been one of the people responsible. Do you know his real name? No. Now, look, I'm just I'm just some dude
01:16:13
sitting in a garage, but here's where I go with this. Dro, we know is slang for good marijuana
01:16:18
or pot. I know this by my limited knowledge of rap music, right? Dro is used by people
01:16:24
like Eminem, 50 Cent, Kanye West, and the late and great Nate Dogg, and many, many more. So, could Dro be reference to
01:16:32
somebody that has really good weed? That's selling really good stuff in 2011? 2010?
01:16:40
Right. The other thing too that I would push on is Drew Warren. We know per the court records and per
01:16:49
conversations with detectives that Tiffany Williams hung out with an individual named Drew Warren that night.
01:16:57
When we're talking about nicknames, Dro doesn't sound like too far of a stretch from Drew to me.
01:17:02
>> No. >> And then the final thing here Captain is obvious, the obvious. Identify the other
01:17:10
DNA evidence found at the scene. Per reports, I don't know the exact number, but it's been reported heavily
01:17:16
that about a dozen to possibly even as high as two dozen people have submitted their DNA DNA when asked by police.
01:17:24
And we know that the the persons that submitted DNA, they don't match the DNA of the
01:17:30
perpetrators that was found at the crime scene. We also know that that when they
01:17:33
checked it with CODIS, the only two names that came back was Pettaway and Williams.
01:17:38
And they charged both of them. One of them's in prison. >> Right. >> So it's identifying these other sources
01:17:45
of DNA. Now, we know that the DNA didn't come from Alexandrea Kousenau. Do we let her off the hook? Not so fast,
01:17:52
my friend. I think that she could still be on the hook for this and and not have left her
01:17:57
DNA at the scene. Or if she did, they didn't find it at the scene. If she's involved, you're going to need other
01:18:03
persons to turn on her. And police haven't moved off of her fully yet. Uh she's gone on to commit some pretty
01:18:11
terrible crimes or be accused of committing some other possible crimes. >> Well, also in this case, you get too
01:18:20
many people involved, you get people starting to talk just cuz they feel like they're safe or
01:18:25
that law enforcement can't get to them. And the streets will get to you. And we've seen that already happen and
01:18:34
take place in this case. >> Well, and I I want to throw out a challenge to the Lucas County Sheriff's
01:18:41
Department who were the lead on this case. I do think they did a lot of good work in this case.
01:18:47
Uh especially when it came to rounding up some individuals and questioning them. We know that they did good work by
01:18:52
calling in BCI to secure the scene and come up with physical evidence >> Right. >> and forensics in this case
01:18:59
that that ultimately led to an arrest and a conviction. But I don't Here's the thing, Lucas County.
01:19:08
When Sam Williams sits there and he answers all those questions, he talks to you that whole damn time, he
01:19:16
believes I'm smarter than these cops. And you thought that when you told him we found your DNA at the scene
01:19:25
he would crack and he'd sing like a bird, and he didn't. He sat there and he still denied knowing
01:19:31
anybody, denied ever being there. And so we sit here all of these years later and he does look like the smart one.
01:19:42
Because here's where the case stands. The police know, based off of the physical evidence, that other
01:19:48
individuals were there that night and responsible for what happened to these two young people.
01:19:54
They are not locked up. None of those other people are locked up. So, Williams was smarter that day.
01:20:03
And you're letting until you lock up those other individuals, you're letting him win. He's beat you.
01:20:09
Alexander Kuszmaul, who who you interviewed multiple times, and she sits there acting like she's smarter than the
01:20:15
detectives. If she was involved, she outsmarted you. And I'm challenging the Lucas County
01:20:22
Sheriff's Office to solve this case 100% because what they have said publicly, they're talking out of both sides of
01:20:29
their mouths, and I don't like it. In 2021, Mike Navarre, the Lucas County Sheriff,
01:20:37
says to the families publicly, says to the families of Lisa and Johnny that he and his office are committed to getting
01:20:45
justice for their loved ones, to solving this case and bringing all that are responsible
01:20:50
and holding them responsible. That's not happened. We're over 2 years later after that statement. That's not
01:20:57
happened. The other statement that's come out though, Captain? Well, do the genealogy
01:21:03
research on the DNA that you collected at the scene of the of the perpetrators, of the suspects.
01:21:08
And the Lucas County Sheriff's office has said, "We don't have the funds for that. We can't afford to do that."
01:21:15
So, you're going to let the bad guys win over something as silly as money. You know, you you point out to the
01:21:21
public plenty of times these poor kids were killed for $45 or or less than $200 or whatever it was.
01:21:28
You reference money. You reference there not being a safe in the house and maybe
01:21:32
money was the motive. And now we're Now we're referencing money as an excuse that this thing has
01:21:38
not been solved completely. >> Well, it's not just justice for the family or the justice for the victims,
01:21:43
but it's also these are these individuals that were involved in this crime are animals and they need to be
01:21:50
pulled off the streets and not in the society because if they're if they're in society,
01:21:58
there there's a chance that this would happen again to other victims over basically nothing. And
01:22:05
you can't afford the funding? Well, there's organizations that will help you get the funding.
01:22:14
>> This kind of This kind of work, Captain, would take approximately 6 to 8 grand
01:22:21
per profile. So, if there were three other individuals involved, we're talking at most
01:22:28
even conservatively, let's on the higher end, about $25,000 to completely solve this thing. And And here's
01:22:36
that's not a whole lot of money. And I get it. Different counties have different funding for different
01:22:40
investigations and different resources. So, I'm not faulting them for not having
01:22:44
the resources. I'm faulting them for what you just said. Not accepting the help of others that
01:22:51
can help you clear that hurdle of not having the funding. And who were these others individuals? CeCe Moore,
01:22:57
world-renowned genetic genealogist, who publicly offered up her services to Lucas County
01:23:05
to help them solve this mystery of the unknown DNA profiles that were found. To this day, Lucas County's not taken
01:23:14
her up on that offer. We know that she solved some of the some very big high-profile cases in this country.
01:23:20
She's offering to help you with her services, and that's not been taken. So, you don't need funds for CeCe
01:23:27
Moore. >> Right. >> Okay? And then on top of it, Captain points out, yes, there are groups. Okay?
01:23:32
So, we have Toledo Cares, is it advocacy group. It's a community group that works
01:23:37
with law enforcement to assist in bringing justice to murder victims and their families.
01:23:41
They're a pro-police organization in the Toledo community. For the past seven decades, that this isn't just
01:23:49
something that was born 10 minutes ago. Seven decades, they've they've been a part of the Toledo
01:23:55
community. Toledo Cares has agreed to use their considerable local and national connections
01:24:03
to help offer additional resources in this case, in this investigation. And I can tell you this, True Crime Garage,
01:24:11
we have offered our assistance in several other cases. Yes, does a lot of that come through the
01:24:17
Porchlight Project? Of Of But that's several at least three Ohio cases that we've
01:24:25
positively identified DNA through the Porchlight Project. >> Well, we know for a fact that they've
01:24:33
>> of these cases Sorry, in a couple of these cases True Crime Garage damn near funded the whole
01:24:38
entirety of the case. And we're currently working >> Sorry, we're currently working with law
01:24:46
enforcement in an out-of-state case. So, now you have CC Moore, Toledo Cares, True Crime Garage. I know that you have
01:24:55
WTOL, the news station up there that have have continued to broadcast this story even
01:25:03
all of these years later who have attempted to rally the troops and and get the community involved. This
01:25:11
does not have to be Lucas County Sheriff's Office going this alone. This This we've rallied the troops. It's
01:25:18
a whole community that wants to help Lucas County Sheriff's Office solve this thing. And guess what? At the end of the
01:25:24
day, we help you, Lucas County. We help you, Sheriff's Office. And you get to stand up at the podium
01:25:32
and you get to take all of the praise for solving this case once you finally do it.
01:25:42
>> Yeah, and when the crew >> [clears throat] >> And when the Crispy Colonel is saying
01:25:47
True Crime Garage, it's not just the Colonel and the Captain, it's all the amazing listeners
01:25:53
that have donated to the Porchlight Project. And if we if they came to us and said, "Well, it's
01:25:59
going to be this much money." We'd do a call to action and we know that we have the the support of the listeners that
01:26:07
would raise that money and then justice would be served not just for the victims
01:26:12
and the families, but for that community and for the whole state of Ohio. The Beer Fund has put many a cold beer
01:26:22
in the old garage fridge, but it's also sent a lot of dollars to the National Center for Missing and Exploited
01:26:27
Children. It's provided a canine dog a canine officer for a jurisdiction a sheriff's department down in the great
01:26:37
state of Florida. It's identified several victims and suspects and perpetrators of crimes through the Porch
01:26:44
Light Project and as said we're now working with law enforcement on an out-of-state case as well. So
01:26:51
every dollar counts and we're making sure that it counts and it doesn't just go to the the garage fridge all the
01:26:57
time. Look, anybody with information in this case, please come forward. There are
01:27:02
still some puzzle pieces that need to be sorted out in this case. I believe it's
01:27:06
very solvable. We've pointed out the reasons why it's solvable and how it can be solved. So if you have information
01:27:13
and this is one thing we need to talk about here just briefly before we let everybody go here Captain. Is it when
01:27:19
you have a homicide investigation, time is a detective's enemy in the early stages of the
01:27:26
investigation. Time was certainly the enemy for detectives in this case as well. Had they had that DNA evidence
01:27:35
days or a couple weeks after the murders rather than eight months later, they may
01:27:39
have had a different line of questioning when they were talking to all these individuals.
01:27:43
Time is the enemy for a case when it's fresh, when it's new. Cold cases, time is a detective's friend. And that
01:27:52
is because people change, lifestyles change, living situations change. People may not be afraid of somebody
01:28:01
today that they were afraid of in 2011 or 2012. >> Right. >> And one thing that has changed
01:28:08
significantly in this case, a very violent dangerous individual Samuel Williams, is locked up for good.
01:28:15
They threw away the damn key. He ain't getting out. So, if he was stopping or his presence or the fear of Sam Williams
01:28:23
was stopping you or preventing you from talking before, you don't have to worry about him no
01:28:28
more. You can go to the police, and you can tell them, "Look, this is why I didn't
01:28:34
come forward because I was afraid for my life." Nobody's going to blame you for that now.
01:28:40
So, if anybody out there has information, please come forward. Please tell us what you know. Please call Crime
01:28:45
Stoppers at 419-255-1111, or you can call the Detectives Bureau at 419-213-4917.
01:28:55
Or, if you don't want to talk to law enforcement, you can reach out to True Crime Garage. Our contact information is
01:29:01
on our website. You can also reach out to a person that was very valuable in helping us put together this case. His
01:29:07
name is Brian Dugger. He's somebody that True Crime Garage worked with on the Nancy Eagleson case. He's a brilliant
01:29:13
investigative reporter for WTOL, and you can reach Brian at [email protected]. >> [music]
01:29:33
>> Want to thank [music] you so much for joining us here in the garage each and every week, and thanks for sharing
01:29:40
our show on social media. Do we have any recommended reading for the beautiful listeners?
01:29:46
>> This week, Captain, we are recommending It Came From Ohio by James Renner. A little Halloween action for you, if you
01:29:52
will. Good for Halloween. So, turn on the nightlight, lock your door, and close the window blinds. Join
01:29:59
investigative reporter James Renner as he looks into 13 tales of mysterious, creepy, and unexplained events all from
01:30:06
the Buckeye State including the giant Loveland frog, the bloodthirsty melon heads of Kirtland, and the werewolf of
01:30:14
Defiance. Don't forget about the Mothman of the Ohio River and the UFO that inspired Close Encounters of the Third
01:30:22
Kind and many more. Check out It Came from Ohio. You'll find that great title and many more on our recommended page at
01:30:30
truecrimegarage.com. And until next week, be good, be kind, and don't litter. >> [music]
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