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gift card. Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks
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for listening. I'm your host, Nick, and with me, as always, is a man who may or may not be the father of the royal baby.
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He is the captain. Well, he already has dual citizenship, so why don't you explain that one to me? It's good to be
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seen and it's good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend.
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Tonight, tonight, everything's going to be all right, Captain, because we are sipping on dark subject matter by our
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good friends at Monday Night Brewing. Garage Grade, four and a half bottle caps out of five. This is a silky smooth
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American Imperial Stout with a high ABV of 12%. So, I would recommend staying at
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home and pairing this with your favorite cigar and your favorite True Crime Garage episode. And we are paired up
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we like your jib to Kelly in Westminster, Colorado. Next up, we have Vanessa from Inver
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Grove Heights, Minnesota, and we also have Tasha, who says she bought the album the captain made of the show
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music. So, cheers to you and cheers to everybody that chipped in with this week's beer fund. Yeah, you can find
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that album on iTunes and we have some other episodes and some other music and some other nonsense. So, check that out
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on iTunes and that is enough of the business. All right, everybody gather around, grab
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a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. Longview, Washington. May 15th, 1985.
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The school bell rings. It's the end of the school day. 8-year-old Rima Traxler leaves on foot
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returning home from Saint Helen's Elementary School. On the way, she decides to stop at a
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friend's house. She wanted to show off an art project she made at school. After a brief visit, she continued on
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her way walking towards her family's residence. Eyewitnesses observed her walking
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approximately two blocks from her family's home. Rima never arrived at her house that
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afternoon. She has not been seen again. Rima was a smart little girl raised by a good mother
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who taught her the dangers of talking to strangers. Little did she know pure evil was lurking close to home and
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just right around the corner. Rima was last seen walking home from school. The third grader was about 4
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feet 3 inches tall and 45 lb. She was a beautiful blue-eyed little girl with blonde hair that fell down to
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the middle of her back. She was wearing a pink shirt, plaid tan skirt, and white tights.
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When Rima failed to come home, her mother, Danielle, became very worried. Danielle walked to the school to retrace
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her daughter's steps. She saw nothing that would alert her and nothing that could offer any clue as to where her
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daughter was. When she returned home, she called the Longview police and reported her
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daughter missing. With the announcement of her child's disappearance, the police
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and community organized and conducted an intensive search for the little girl. But just like Danielle, they didn't find
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Rima and they didn't find any clues. Despite no one coming forward saying that they saw the little girl abducted,
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police actually had suspects. One suspect was a friend of Rima's stepfather. The suspect was 26-year-old
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Joseph Condro. Investigators questioned him during their initial 1985 investigation.
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But there was no evidence linking Joseph to her case. Unfortunately, Rima never returned and eventually the trail went
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cold. The case remained opened and unsolved. Then, over a decade later on November
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21st, 1996 at 7:15 a.m. Larry Holden dropped off his niece and his fiance's daughter at
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school. His niece is Yolanda Patterson and his fiance's daughter is 12-year-old Kara Rudd.
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After Larry drove off, a 1982 Pontiac Firebird pulled up to the sidewalk. The driver is now 37-year-old Joseph Condro.
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Both girls knew Condro. The girls actually lived together. Larry has custody of his niece and he
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lives with his fiance, Janet Kara's mother. Joseph Condro stayed for a brief time at
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their home. So, when Condro pulled over in his car, the girls came running over to talk to
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him. Kara got in the car while Yolanda stayed outside. Joseph and Kara had some kind of
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conversation. Kara gets out of the car and tells Yolanda that she wants to skip school and go out to Willow Grove.
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There's a pig farm out there and she wants to play with the piglets. Yolanda wants none of this because if
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she skipped school, they could get caught and then they would be in trouble. Yolanda starts making her way to the
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school building. Condro drives off. The last time Yolanda saw Kara, she was walking east on
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Hemlock Street. The school principal is going to call Kara's mother to let her know that she
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was missing from school and then Kara's never going to show up to the house that
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evening. Police instituted a community-wide search. Kara's mother, Janet, almost immediately suspected
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Joseph Condro of abducting her daughter. She called him repeatedly. He called her
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back returning her call. She picked up the phone, but for some reason her answering machine picked up and then
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recorded a conversation in which she accuses him of abducting Kara. Everybody suspects that Kara went to the pig farm,
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so police are going to make contact with the owner, Pete. Yeah, he said that he wasn't home during the time frame in
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question and he also said he did not suspect that anyone visited his property while he was gone. Mhm. Because of
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Yolanda's story about seeing Condro outside of the school police, like Janet, were suspicious. They questioned
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him. He claimed to have an alibi, but there was no one to back up his alibi. In fact, there was at least one person
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that came forward and said his alibi was false. Here's another case that we're missing a kid that knows Condro and he's
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a suspect, but we have no body, we have no evidence, and we have a crappy alibi.
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So, police start talking to everyone that knows Condro. They need to get a handle on this guy. They talk to his
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ex-wife, Julie West, and they learn a good deal of info from her. One thing of importance, she said that the same day
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that Kara went missing, she was in Joseph's car. When she went to move the seat back, she
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saw a hairbrush under the seat. And she said that it looked like a hairbrush that would belong to a little girl.
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So, she said that she later called Kara's mother and they talked about the brush. Her mother said Kara carried
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around a hairbrush just like the one that she saw in Condro's car. So, Condro's ex-wife, Julie West, gets into
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his car the day that Kara goes missing, sees a brush, talks to the mother. They confirm that it's possibly Kara's brush.
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Now, she's going to go to police with this information. Yeah, and the weird thing here is uh
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after she's done talking to the police she gets a call from Condro. He wants to know what she told police,
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what is going on with the investigation, and what do the detectives know. Right.
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Julie tells him very little. And then he threatens her with bodily harm, telling her she is not to talk to
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the police again. Well, God bless Julie because she tells the detective about this phone call. And the detective goes
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to the home of a judge to secure an arrest warrant for Joseph Condro. They arrest him that day for tampering
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with a witness. They lock him up at the county jail, booked him on $25,000 bail.
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And that amount soon doubled. Because the law was finally catching up to Condro, he's also arraigned on child
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molestation and rape charges. This is from a completely different incident. And it was while he was sitting there in
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jail waiting for trial on these different charges, that police are talking to everyone that knows Condro.
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Yeah. They learn that he liked to hang out sometimes at a vacant decaying house on Mount Solo. This is just west of
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Longview. On January 4th, 1997, less than 2 months after Cara's disappearance, police were searching a
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remote wooded hillside at the Mount Solo area. They came upon a ravine and spotted a
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rusted red Volkswagen with no tires or wheels. Inside the vehicle, they found Cara's
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black Reebok shirt. This car was tipped up, so it's it's lying on its side. But underneath the
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car, they find the body of a female with her head toward the rear and her feet beneath the passenger side door.
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Officers used a winch to tip the car back up. And they brought out forensic technicians. They took all relevant
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samples before cutting down a tree a nearby tree to remove the Volkswagen from the immediate scene and process it
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further. The upper part of the torso was badly decomposed. And several of the ribs showed evidence
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of animal predation. But the lower half of the body had been well preserved by being completely under
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the car. Underpants and a pair of black shorts matching the description of what Cara
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was wearing were on the body. After collecting samples in the immediate vicinity, the crime scene
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techs loosened loosened the dirt under the corpse so that they could slip two body bags over it.
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One from each end. They were taped together and sealed, and the body transported to the state crime
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lab. Dental records confirmed the body is Cara's. The county coroner, Gary Greig, declared
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that she died from homicidal violence by unknown means. Pieces of physical evidence including
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all of the clothing found on and around the body were sent to an independent lab
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in San Diego. Semen deposits on Cara's body and clothing tied Joseph Condro directly to
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the murder. Now that they have evidence against Condro, he's already sitting in prison, but still looking at him for two
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other crimes. So for 2 years, Condro refused to cooperate with investigators even though his DNA linked him to Cara's
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body. But then the trial begins, and in a bombshell courtroom announcement, Condro
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pled guilty to raping and strangling Cara and killing Rima Traxler 14 years earlier. In his confession, he said he
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saw Rima when he was driving to a local store to buy beer and cigarettes. Joseph
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said he took Rima to a swimming hole on Germany Creek in Longview and strangled her.
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He claimed he buried her in a shallow grave near the location. He agreed to deal with prosecutors,
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which allowed him to confess to murdering both Rima and Cara and avoiding the death penalty.
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Investigators searched the area 1999, but were unable to locate any sign of Rima's body.
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God bless murder victim Cara Rudd. Because of her courageous fight to live and the forensic evidence collected
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because of that fight, her killer, Joseph Condro, was caught and the murder of Rima Traxler years earlier was
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finally solved. When asked about Joseph Condro, the county prosecutor who participated
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in the legal proceedings against Condro said, quote, "I have only twice in 25 years felt the presence of true evil.
00:14:15
When Condro and I would look at each other in the courtroom, it was a feeling that there was nothing there in those
00:14:21
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Captain, and cheers to the great John Douglas. Mhm. So, Mr. Douglas was kind enough to
00:17:50
sit down with us and discuss some of his expertise particularly in this case. And
00:17:56
if people don't know who John Douglas is, he's responsible for what? He's largely responsible for the what is
00:18:04
typically known as the Behavioral Science Unit at the FBI. Which has inspired movies like Silence of the
00:18:10
Lambs, the series Mindhunter, and many others. And just like so many times before, John Douglas went to the prison
00:18:18
and interviewed Joseph Condro. Put the lotion in the basket. All right, so it's time for your everybody to say
00:18:24
bye to me because I wasn't invited to the interview. Well, maybe next time, Captain. Now,
00:18:30
here's my interview with John Douglas. Regarding the Joseph Condro case, what can you tell us about the Mount Solo
00:18:48
area and why police were searching there and what they found? The area where where the where the disposal site uh you
00:18:55
know, occurred. Uh that's where they would find uh one of the victims uh in a um
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you know, in a Volkswagen uh that he placed in uh placed in a in I think it was a a
00:19:07
conceal a good concealed area to dispose of the uh you know, of the body. And uh
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Condro, as far as uh getting like into his history uh too, he was Well, when I did the interview with him,
00:19:25
it it was pretty much predictable that one day that he would be perpetrating crimes like the ones that he that he
00:19:32
did. He was he was abused as a child. Um he had alcoholic parents. He too uh an alcoholic.
00:19:41
Was a uh was a bully. What uh What was interesting with him was that as he grew older, he um stayed
00:19:51
fixated on on very very young children. He was fixated on them when he was young, but then as he grew older, he
00:19:57
just stayed fixated with you know with these young children. The the crimes that he perpetrated, they got him on
00:20:05
two. They think that he could have done as many as seven. I think that what makes the case so unusual
00:20:12
with him I I really didn't have I didn't understand it and I had asked him the question is you're killing your friends'
00:20:18
children. Why? I mean why are you killing your your friends' children? And he said it's just
00:20:24
you know it's just easy. He says by attacking strangers you have control control issues and cuz they'll fight
00:20:33
back. But by going after my friends' children, that I would not have that have that problem.
00:20:39
I said, "Yeah, but then you'd be an obvious obvious suspect, wouldn't you?" And he said, "I was a suspect, but they
00:20:47
never could come up with anything. Plus at the time, as far as post offense, what he would do is he would participate
00:20:54
in searches. He would console the parents of you know of the victims. So he may have been under suspicion, but
00:21:02
they really never they never looked at you know him you know hard until like obviously when he found the body.
00:21:09
And his only mistake is when they found the body and that hidden in the in the Volkswagen was that he didn't do a
00:21:15
better job of concealing the body and that he got caught. Nothing as far as remorse towards the victims or the
00:21:22
families of the victim is just that you know that he got caught. After months, prosecutors
00:21:28
offered Condro a deal so he could avoid the death penalty if he gave a full confession. Can you talk about his
00:21:34
confession and some of the details that he offered up? He was offered a deal to to escape the death penalty. Although
00:21:40
they they still believe that he was responsible for others and and even after they made the deal, they were
00:21:45
still trying to cuz he made a deal just on on the two. His MO you know was to obviously he's close you know close to
00:21:53
the the children. But the details in fact I I actually did this for MSNBC and they they really
00:22:02
didn't they cut out all the details of the crime itself. It's how he he he tricked one of the victims for example.
00:22:10
They had a code word uh and the family said, "Okay, now unless you say the word person says word
00:22:17
unicorn, that's going to be our password and that feel free to go with whomever is asking for that password."
00:22:26
Unfortunately, he knew what the password was and he picks up this the girl and he
00:22:30
says young child and he says he knows he's going to kill her. There's no doubt about it. As soon as you got into the
00:22:38
car, I'm going to to kill her. He takes her to this remote area. He goes through all the the details, the
00:22:44
specific details, the gory details of of how he was raped raped how he strangled the victim, tried to drown the
00:22:53
victim, how difficult it was to strangle. You know, he was telling John it takes a lot of body strength to kill
00:23:00
somebody through manual strangulation. And he said, "I didn't I didn't know that."
00:23:05
And then even after doing all that, he still decided to you know bash her her head in with a
00:23:11
you know with a a large a large branch. It was just kind of remarkable of that again it's the kind of emotionless
00:23:22
no no empathy the only time he showed some kind of some kind of emotional reaction was
00:23:28
really about himself and about his his own children, his upbringing. But like even with his own children, I
00:23:36
brought up the question. I said, "What if somebody would uh would go after your children?" And he
00:23:41
said, "Oh, you know, I would uh you know, I want them punished. I would you know I would kill them."
00:23:46
So so he's just coming from two different points of view. Anyway, and what he did too as as so many of them
00:23:53
will do is they use they don't always want to accept responsibility 100% so they'll blame
00:23:59
they'll they'll project it and project it on sometimes the victim, sometimes children's parents. You know, maybe
00:24:06
they're too too trusting. So I had a case in Florida where I was interviewing a rapist
00:24:12
and he was you know, telling me that I said, "Why did you pick this particular victim?" And he says, "Well, she was in
00:24:18
sitting on a bar stool in a diner at night time and it was obviously didn't have any underwear on. So she was she
00:24:25
was looking for it. So it's it's like her fault." You find this so much with people like Condro and and others. With
00:24:33
him and I knew I already knew the answer to it. It was really a crime of of power
00:24:37
where he never thought he had power. He felt in his life he was like like one grain of sand on a beach of
00:24:46
billions and billions of sands grains of sand and how can this inadequate nobody become a somebody and
00:24:54
and and so we had a lot of aggression and his how he can become a somebody, how he can retaliate you know, for his
00:25:01
poor upbringing and those in his mind who did him wrong was to retaliate by by killing you know, killing others. But
00:25:10
again he's the only only serial offender I've ever interviewed who attacked attacked his friends his
00:25:19
friends' children which was just so so bizarre. He's serving a life sentence and you went to interview him in prison
00:25:25
just like you've done with so many other killers. How do you prepare for these types of interviews? The preparation for
00:25:32
the interviews is very different than what you see on television and what and even in Mindhunter where they go into
00:25:39
the prison and they have a tape recorder on and taking notes. When when I do the interview, I go into
00:25:46
the police files first, the medical examiner's reports. I have all that. I look at the circumstances of how he was
00:25:53
apprehended, if he gave a confession. Did he volunteer the confession or was it or did they just kind of
00:26:00
you know, work them over for a period of of time. When I get to the prison itself, I then
00:26:05
go into the into review the police records, the file the files I should say in corrections what
00:26:12
that they have built up over the past years you know, on him. See if he how he's being analyzed and by
00:26:18
psychologists there. And so when I walk into the room, I will not have any any notes. I won't have
00:26:27
notes. I won't have tape recorders or anything anything like that because I I found early on when we did that when we
00:26:33
interviewed say Charles Manson Ed Kemper, we had a small tape recorder and it was a little cassette
00:26:42
and they were they didn't like that. They were very very paranoid. They live in a
00:26:49
and they should be paranoid like living where they are in a prison where you you
00:26:54
can't turn your back on someone they without fear of being being being knifed. They don't want to be perceived as a
00:27:03
snitch or anything like that. So by having a tape recorder or notes, they you know, what are you going to do with
00:27:08
this stuff? You know, you know, and and so finally I decided now this I have to go
00:27:13
in there. We had a 57-page protocol interview protocol that was developed with us and Dr. Ann Burgess at Boston
00:27:22
College. She in the show Mindhunter is the Wendy. But really in reality Ann was not a psychologist
00:27:28
telling us how to do the interviews. We knew that. She was helping us on the academic side developing the this
00:27:34
instrument. 57 pages, thousands of questions concerning the victim, victim selection
00:27:41
the subject, the pre-offense, post-offense behavior, all that stuff. So we would fill that out. That would be
00:27:47
pretty much good chunk of that would be filled out before going in and then the rest you'd
00:27:51
have to memorize and that all had to do with with the crime the crime and the the
00:27:59
offender. And the approach would be more conversational. It's not it's always positive. You may even give them
00:28:07
kind of some false hopes that you know, the the warden knows you're cooperating with us here. We're helping with your
00:28:12
doing is helping us who we're receiving cases from all over the world now and I and we're going to apply
00:28:20
what we've learned from you and others to these other cases seeing if there are in fact similarities that can cross over
00:28:28
into these other you know, other crimes. So you do you do that if you do it right, they don't want you to leave.
00:28:35
They don't want you you you begin to even tell them as you gain in experience. They want to know
00:28:40
about themselves. What do you think what made me tick? What what And then some of
00:28:44
them are are very arrogant very arrogant that uh bragging about the crimes that they did and that you
00:28:53
you know, that they're so good. Yeah, they made a mistake. They got caught, but that was it was a fluke. If I can go
00:29:00
off a little bit, I interviewed a an airplane skyjacker one time who was shot. He was shot at Kennedy Airport. He
00:29:07
skyjacked an airplane from uh LA to New York. He said, "John, you never could have
00:29:14
catch me if I was a fugitive. You have to cut off all contact with your families. Christmas time, we know
00:29:20
Christmas time, the holidays, FBI, police, you know, they're looking for mail and
00:29:25
and I said, "Well, we really we can't catch you?" No. I said, "Well, I'll just listen." His name is
00:29:29
Gary Trapnell and he wrote a book called The Fox Is Crazy, Too. And and he I said, "Gary, you went off on the deep
00:29:36
end crime wise when your when your dad died. Your dad was really a military hero. He he's buried at Arlington
00:29:43
Cemetery." And I actually went to his grave to and and saw where he was buried and he was
00:29:48
shocked that I had done that. So, now he's just looking at me. Now, you're telling me that we can't can't catch you
00:29:55
because you're just so swift, you know, you're a lot smarter than us. I said, "What if I told the FBI or police I said
00:30:02
at around the time of your uh around the holidays, Christmas holidays, uh and around your dad's birthday and the
00:30:10
date your dad died that we should search search set up a surveillance in Arlington Cemetery where your dad is
00:30:19
buried." As I'm saying that, I don't even complete the sentence. He starts shaking his head
00:30:25
side to side, smiling, and he says, "You got me." He I mean, he says, "You did it, right?"
00:30:32
I says, "Yeah." He says, you know, I I I did it. And so, those are the kind of things and and after a while you kind of
00:30:40
get good at you start you start seeing these patterns. So, the offender, they start asking you about
00:30:46
they want to know about you you know, themselves or how was I created and and why do you
00:30:52
think I did the things that that I did. So, I'll do that. But I'll also tell them about the crime
00:31:00
that I where I don't know anything about the crime other than I'm here to learn about, but I'll tell them about
00:31:07
themselves at around the time the crime was committed, the behavior leading up to
00:31:12
the crime, what was going on in their life, what they did after the after the crime. Based upon you can't do it on
00:31:19
every case, but it's based upon how that crime is interpreted interpreted you know, you know, by me
00:31:25
looking at it and reviewing, you know, all of the material. It's interesting. It's interesting for me, interesting
00:31:30
interesting as well for them. And I created by doing that then I created a criminal profiling and went from a
00:31:38
program to a major unit within the FBI that's still it's even growing today. It's even bigger than it was when when I
00:31:45
was in. What are you hoping to learn about the killer during these interviews? I'm
00:31:49
trying to learn the whys of the behavior. This is the formula I've used and I've mentioned in
00:31:55
this book and other books, why plus how equals who. Well, now we have the who in
00:31:59
this case it's it's not on sub case not on subject case. We got the guy. Why why
00:32:04
and hows of of the behavior behavior and see you know, is there anything that he's
00:32:10
can tell us that that I can apply to a another, you know, other cases. I mean, what he's telling
00:32:18
us for example, injecting himself into into the investigation or or participating in
00:32:25
searches. If you notice in the in the same book, the killer across the table, Joseph McGowan did the same thing. He
00:32:32
was school teacher when he killed a brownie, a Joan D'Alessandro. Uh so, we see see a pattern
00:32:39
you know, like that you know, as well. And so, a lot of these cases you go in and you kind of know
00:32:46
you're not expecting to get a whole lot of information out of them, but there may be a question like
00:32:52
just one question you just you need to know that could really help you. Give an example, uh Dennis Rader,
00:33:00
the BTK Strangler. Um he's not in this book. He's in another book I I did cuz I interviewed him. I did the cases over
00:33:07
the years from when he first killed in the '70s until in the '80s. He was apprehended in the '90s by I interviewed
00:33:14
him. Why he stopped for years at a time? You know, that's how I because in law enforcement we think, "Oh, the guy moved
00:33:24
to another area uh or he's incarcerated or he died." He just couldn't stop. No one can commit
00:33:30
the kind of crimes that the BTK was committing and just stop. What happened, Dennis? Why did you stop? He said, "One
00:33:37
day I came home from work early. It was lunchtime. I decided to put the victim's
00:33:42
clothing on." He would souvenir his mementos. He would keep the clothing of the victims. And he would cross-dress in
00:33:49
the victims and then he would put a plastic mask over his face and then he would draw in like lipstick and no
00:33:56
uh eyebrows nose and he would then reflect his image in a mirror. And sometimes he
00:34:02
would take pictures, you know, of himself. Well, on this one day guess what? He's married, has two children,
00:34:09
living in about 1,200 square foot house, little tiny house where he has all these
00:34:13
mementos and belongings of victims secreted hidden from the rest of the family. His wife walks in and and so,
00:34:20
"What the hell is this?" Scares the hell out of him and he says, "Well, I got this problem I
00:34:26
this cross-dressing." He didn't tell her that the clothing is from his victims and or
00:34:32
did she realize that she was married to the BTK Strangler. So, that he said, "John, that that scared the hell out of
00:34:39
me. I thought, you know, sure you know, that's you know, this may leak out or she may tell somebody you know,
00:34:44
goes and tells the police. So, he stopped for a couple years. And he and then once again he did it he went a
00:34:51
couple years, but then he did it again and and uh he's got caught for the second time and by his wife. His wife
00:34:57
almost left him left him and scared the daylights out of him. So, he did he did stop a couple of more years and
00:35:04
then went into hiding again and then the last time that would would create his apprehension and cause his apprehension
00:35:11
was that there was a lawyer who was writing a book book about the BTK Strangler. And
00:35:17
in his mind, I mean, his thinking is crazy. "If anyone's going to write a book, it's
00:35:21
going to be me," he says. "Well, who's going to How are you going to publish a book?" He says, "Well, I'm going to
00:35:26
write the book. I'm going to hide the book and who knows maybe 100 years from now they'll find it someplace where I'll
00:35:31
bury it and they'll realize I was the BTK the BTK you know, Strangler. So, this this
00:35:38
lawyer by writing that book spurred on Dennis Rader, the BTK Strangler and then he started communicating with not just
00:35:46
only the lawyer, but with the press as well as TV stations and then he made a flagrant error
00:35:55
when he the police he asked the police if he could if he sends a floppy disk uh to them
00:36:03
uh to prove that he's the BTK like pictures of evidence, things like that which would be evidence, but like
00:36:09
crime scene photos that he took. "Would you be able to to trace this back to him?" he asked. Of course, the police
00:36:16
said, "No." Well, he submits the floppy. They bring in computer guys and you really didn't
00:36:22
have to be much of an expert. As soon as they put it in a floppy disk and they see that Dennis Rader's name is
00:36:29
president of Christ Lutheran Church in Wichita Wichita, Kansas. How smart he thought he
00:36:35
was. He got caught by making the dumb mistake. But the point is going back to the interview, you go in and just you
00:36:41
know, wanting to ask just certain things that that people haven't figured out, but things that can and is there
00:36:48
anything we can learn to prevent prevent this from occurring? You know, maybe do
00:36:52
we see a trend in their backgrounds of I mean, what were they like as children? Were there were there red flags,
00:36:57
forensic flags as a young kid that maybe a school teacher could have picked up on anything like
00:37:02
that. And we started seeing that in these interviews, some flags such as animal cruelty. We saw a trend in that
00:37:09
in early as the early 1980s and it's not until just a year ago a year ago that now after all these years that the FBI
00:37:17
has a a category animal cruelty in the uniform crime report. So, every you and the
00:37:23
police fills out that the crimes in their cities, they uh they'll have that category because
00:37:30
they recognize that that that there is a often times a stepping stone from animal
00:37:35
cruelty to violent behavior. Did you find any animal cruelty in Condra's background? Yeah, Condra yeah, Condra
00:37:42
had animal cruelty in his background. I'm trying to think specifically what he did. They don't
00:37:48
always have it, but he there was some early on in in uh in his life with I think it was dogs or
00:37:55
cats and he was also a bully in school as well as in fact the other the other ones we interviewed as well in in this
00:38:03
particular book we found the uh animal cruelty in their background. I I speak at the SPCA in Canada last
00:38:09
couple years and they can investigate I have an investigative arm in their SPCA's.
00:38:15
They have seen links as well between this animal cruelty and this progression from
00:38:20
elementary school they note this. They follow it along and and sure enough start getting into
00:38:27
uh high school you start seeing crimes progress and and violent violent types of crimes progress.
00:38:34
Did he ask you what you thought made him a killer? It's like so in so many of them do. With
00:38:41
Condra it was it's the life. It's it you cannot say and I'll explain that with Condra that
00:38:47
Condra what you did is is not excusable. For for what you you have the ability to
00:38:53
make choices. But I can understand because how you were raised you were pretty much
00:38:59
abandoned neglected neglected as a as a child. You turned to alcohol at an early
00:39:06
age and again there was there was this uh cruelty in his mind toward him from family
00:39:16
schoolmates. So, so it was it was predictable that something like this would happen. Not that everyone's going
00:39:22
to grow up to be in his case a serial killer. But it depends on individually how this person responds. A person can
00:39:28
respond by internalize it and turn to alcohol, drugs. He did some of that, but some of them go so far as commit
00:39:34
suicide. Uh others may survive depending if they have a significant person comes in contact with
00:39:41
the with them, but it has to be early on in in their you know in their life. With
00:39:46
him, as he got older, you can't change him. You can't you can't rehabilitate at that point in time because and what I've
00:39:54
said is you you can't really rehabilitate someone who's really not habilitated you know to begin with. I
00:40:02
mean you're trying to get him back to when to what? I mean his whole life has been has been a
00:40:08
a hell in in their minds. And then the crimes that they committed I mean it's in their
00:40:14
way of thinking, they're justified. It's justified as poor me. It's it's always a
00:40:19
a poor me, not a poor victim. It's it's poor me. With Joseph Kondro, do you believe that an admitted child killer
00:40:25
could go from 1985 to 1996 without killing? No I No I don't. You have to look at
00:40:32
deep into the case, but to go that long with with Kondro, no there's others and and he hinted during the the interview
00:40:39
at first. He said, "You know I can't talk about other cases." But then I asked him during the interview, "Are
00:40:44
there are there other cases?" And he said, "Yes, there are other cases." And and I know that I've been the police
00:40:49
have been trying to solve them. You just can't turn it off. They used to say it was like burnout. There'd be a burnout
00:40:56
factor and no there isn't any you know any burnout because and and with sexually motivated crimes they
00:41:04
thought there was that that was the connection that it it's a sex crime. So they they'll be
00:41:09
this burnout person gets older. It's not true. It's not There may be sex involved in the case.
00:41:17
These are crimes of power and and anger and dominance and it's fueled by by fantasy and and most of them have
00:41:24
a early fantasy life of what they want to do if they have the opportunity for the committing of crime.
00:41:32
Dennis Rader had it, you know, Kondro had it too. And the fantasies are sometimes from an evidentiary standpoint
00:41:38
they may write out their their fantasies in books or they actually will draw drawings like Dennis Rader did of
00:41:46
of what he would how he would torture his victims. And the fantasy the fantasy is better than reality with
00:41:54
you know with them. Like Kondro, you know, like Rader, some of the others in the current
00:42:01
the current book because in fantasy everything works perfectly. They're they're the they're the
00:42:07
writer, the producer, the director and the actor and and they it's perfect. But in in reality when they perpetrate
00:42:16
the crime, they'll tell you this. Things didn't go you know as planned. I didn't
00:42:20
expect the victim to fight back as hard as the you know as she did or you know or he did. I didn't I didn't
00:42:27
expect I didn't realize what it would take this much strength to to manually strangle. I wasn't prepared
00:42:33
for the victim to start you know crying and sobbing begging for their life. I I wasn't prepared you know to hear you
00:42:41
know you know to hear that. So it it just never it's never as good as the fantasy. So therefore, if it's not as
00:42:48
good as the fantasy, they keep trying. They keep trying to perfect the crime and and reach a point where one day
00:42:57
it'll be just everything will be perfect because like Dennis Rader and and the other and other
00:43:02
ones too here here their real fantasy would be if they could have a a a victim whatever their victim
00:43:09
preference is captive and as a slave type of thing and do as they please with the do as they
00:43:16
please with the victim. You see it in the West Coast you had Lake and Ng. Your listeners will probably heard of them.
00:43:22
Lake and Ng and and we've had in this in this current book Todd Kohlhepp who's kept a victim
00:43:31
in a in a storage container for a period of two two months or so down in South Carolina. That's the scenario that
00:43:38
they're looking for. That that's what Dennis Rader really wanted to do. You know you know him
00:43:43
you know himself, but it never worked out it never worked out that way. You've been face to face with some of the most
00:43:49
notorious killers and just some real real life monsters. What in your opinion is the appropriate punishment for the
00:43:57
worst of the worst? For the worst of the worst where we're talking about we have
00:44:02
plenty of and a series of say a series of crimes or mass mass crime, mass murder things like
00:44:10
that. I have I I believe I and I eye for an eye on those types of cases, but it has to be
00:44:18
like you say the worst of the worst. When when I when Scott Glenn the actor came back to Quantico, I I I made him
00:44:26
listen to a tape that I had from two rapists out of uh California named Bittaker and Norris.
00:44:35
Scott Glenn was was living up in Idaho and he was you know he's didn't believe in
00:44:41
death penalty and uh I let him listen to the tapes because these two rapists were now
00:44:51
rehabilitated back into society which was a joke and their fantasy that unbeknownst to the to the people who
00:44:57
released them was to rape and murder teenagers for every year of a teenager's life. So they started at 13 and would go
00:45:04
up to 19 years of age and they killed I don't know about six five or six. And and what
00:45:11
was worst of the worst it was that they would torture the victims and audiotape the torturing.
00:45:18
And Bittaker's nickname was Pliers Bittaker. That's his nickname in prison when I interviewed him. And
00:45:25
by that he would they would use these different tools to torture and I could I couldn't I have a hard time listening to
00:45:32
it when I would train police and I only played it for really not that long for Scott Glenn who
00:45:39
got really emotionally so I I didn't believe in the death penalty, but I said I could see
00:45:45
where it can apply in a case like this cuz this is really you know you know horrific. So I feel strong
00:45:53
about that, but then since I've left the Bureau, I've helped free Amanda Knox. I was involved in that
00:46:00
case. I helped Damien Echols Jessie Baldwin Jessie MissKelly and Jason Baldwin in the West
00:46:08
Memphis 3 case where three eight-year-old boys were killed. They were falsely accused of killing them.
00:46:14
I've been involved with JonBenét Ramsey going into the case thinking there was a
00:46:18
good chance the Ramseys were responsible, but looking at the case, working, testifying
00:46:25
in the grand jury, they had nothing to do with you know with that case. They've been
00:46:31
you know re-victimized. So then I I see and I was just on a panel up in New York
00:46:35
two weeks ago with with Amanda Knox and Damien Echols and you know discussing you know their you know their cases. And
00:46:43
here these these people here unfortunately, there was no evidence. There was nothing forensically linking
00:46:50
either either of them to the to to the to the case. It was police using theories to drive the
00:46:58
investigation and when anytime there was any forensic evidence taking them away from their theory, they would ignore
00:47:05
that evidence. They would they would ignore it. And the theory like with Damien and even with Amanda Knox was
00:47:11
that this these were some kind of satanic murders. With Damien Echols it was the early 90s and people police
00:47:17
particularly were attending seminars on satanic murders. They had pictures of kids on on
00:47:24
milk boxes saying there's 50,000 kids are being abducted. We don't know where they are. You know they're like this is
00:47:31
sa you know making it sound like it's a satanic you know satanic you know murders. And the
00:47:37
same thing with with Amanda Knox with her her prosecutor was same thing was trying to to make this into this satanic
00:47:44
murder because he did this before in the Monster of Florence case where Douglas Preston the author he was
00:47:50
he was going to arrest Douglas Preston. He thought Douglas Preston was the Monster of Florence. So this is who she
00:47:56
was dealing dealing with. So then I see those cases and I I I get concerned. So you you better have more you better have
00:48:06
forensic evidence and you better not rely just on some jailhouse snitch or rely on eyewitness eyewitness testimony
00:48:17
which is uh is faulty. And then you got to watch even the collection and the collection
00:48:23
and preservation of evidence to make sure that was done you know correctly. And so I I really it if you're going to
00:48:30
use it. I mean I'm satisfied with with life without parole ever having parole. But unless unless that inmate kills a
00:48:39
guard then you got to execute him. If he he kills a guard in in the prison because you have to go in these prisons
00:48:45
to see how unruly they can be, how dangerous of a a position it is. And if a guy is in there or you know life in
00:48:52
prison. If he can't get the death sentence, I mean what's to stop him from killing a guard or killing another
00:48:58
another you know inmate. But it has to be held for just certain types of you know certain types of
00:49:05
you know of cases. But that but I I have questioned some of these some of since I retired from the Bureau,
00:49:14
I just wondered if when we got cases if the evidence was collected properly. If the medical examiner in fact was
00:49:24
certified or the person say forensic pathologist was certified and what I've seen since then cuz when I was
00:49:30
in the Bureau, I couldn't do cases for the defense and so we just can't do it. But now I I
00:49:37
just every once in a while I'll get a case, see a case, and and uh you know, sometimes you know,
00:49:42
they're they're guilty as sin, but other times you'll see and oh my god, this is
00:49:46
uh it's pretty bad. But, they're uh everyone's looking for DNA today. Well, DNA with the DNA will free him. Well,
00:49:53
not every case has DNA. You have you're having the CSI effect with the jurors uh
00:49:59
looking waiting for the DNA. Okay, what present the DNA? Well, there may not be you know, DNA. It may not be DNA to help
00:50:06
free somebody, you know, from prison who may be uh maybe wrongfully convicted. And so, it changed my attitude cuz I
00:50:14
when I first started, I said, "Ah, everyone I'm innocent." And I go, "Yeah, yeah, you're innocent." Everybody Yeah,
00:50:20
they're a prison full of innocent people. But, then you start seeing, you know, that uh
00:50:25
uh yeah, with certain certain cases, certain individuals, certain departments, you question you question
00:50:32
uh you know, the you question them uh if they've done really like a capable, credible, and you know,
00:50:40
honest job. What would you consider to be your most successful interview and why? It's they've all been everyone you
00:50:47
get a little bit different. Kemper was good and and Kemper was one of the earlier ones. And why and the reason
00:50:52
because he's so smart. Uh he has a 145 you know, IQ. So, so he he he he could be very introspective. And and is and
00:51:04
he's our our key He was very good. The one in this current book, Todd Kohlhepp, another
00:51:10
guy. I mean, uh who committed a very unusual uh crimes. He's he would retaliate against someone uh
00:51:20
to get even. And and and uh just don't cross his path or cross him up, he'll he'll come back and and and
00:51:29
he was very introspective. I had him write fill out the actually the 57-page form and he and he gave me that plus
00:51:38
plus a heck of a lot a lot more. And uh you just learned you can you just learn so much from him. Everyone gives you
00:51:46
something, but the best I mean, like Manson, he's all right, but you pretty well have a good handle on Manson when
00:51:52
you when you go in there, you know, and and you can see some of the antics he played with me. He did at
00:51:58
the George Spahn Ranch where George Spahn Ranch preaching to his followers, he sat up on a a rock,
00:52:05
whereas with me, he sits up on top of a chair. Uh or in some from the chair to a credenza. And you
00:52:12
let him do it. I he's 5 ft 2, I'm 6 ft 2, and and I I don't want to intimidate. I want to him to talk, you know, to talk
00:52:20
friendly. But, you're not going to you're not going to learn a whole lot, you know,
00:52:25
you know, from him. Uh maybe what you learn from him is the the charismatic personality that he
00:52:32
has. Whereas then you can see that passed over into other crimes similar such as Jim Jones in Guyana. The
00:52:41
charismatic personality or the Waco, Texas. And and so, you see that how you can have this charismatic, articulate
00:52:49
personality in his case kind of almost like a prophet, looked like a a prophet, plays a little bit of the guitar. But,
00:52:58
but really he was primarily interested in sex, drugs, and rock and roll. I mean, that was pretty much it. And he
00:53:04
had a lot of we call these gofer personalities. These young kids looking for s- something in life that they're that is
00:53:12
better than where they're coming from. Even though their families, majority of them were fairly well-off families, and
00:53:19
that's what they were rebelling against. And he just kind of simplifies life and
00:53:24
he he wasn't big on the use of drugs, but he would would uh administer drugs to everyone else, kind of orchestrate
00:53:32
things. And then what with women, he would have sex with the women, but then he would have the women uh
00:53:39
and he would script them like fantasizing like they were having sex with like their father. And he was like
00:53:44
this father this father you know, you know, image. So, you could So, you get you you get just experiencing his
00:53:52
personality. And and we interviewed some of the Manson family members, Squeaky Fromme, Sandra Good,
00:53:58
you know, Tex Watson we've interviewed interviewed you can see you can see these kind of
00:54:04
people how the these gofers how they can easily be yeah, you know, easily be be manipulated
00:54:13
uh you know, by someone who's uh criminally smart. You know, he's spent the majority of his life in prison. And
00:54:23
and here these kids are just coming from pretty much you know, upper class, middle class families.
00:54:30
And and can be easily uh manipulated and dominated by a guy like Manson. Do you think that Tex Watson was
00:54:36
trying to take over the leadership role from Charles Manson? I don't know. I don't know. We never got that, you know,
00:54:43
from him. You know, he certainly was one of the smart ones. He was a a smart, you know, kid at the time. And um that
00:54:52
never came across. Uh yeah, but but he too you know, you start wondering he as you probably know, he's a minister
00:55:01
at the in prison. And uh he's been on that for for years. What we found when you ask when you ask people, "What
00:55:10
if you had a the violent potentially violent people or the violent people, what jobs if you
00:55:15
could do it again would you like to have?" And they would like to be ministers and counselors and some type
00:55:22
in law enforcement, you know, like you know, psychological counselors. And and then when you think of it, these are
00:55:27
positions of power, uh you're you're listening to people's weaknesses, and and you can you can
00:55:37
really take advantage. You can take advantage of people like the we've seen people in those
00:55:43
businesses I just mentioned who have done exactly like that for real. And and so, here you
00:55:48
have and that's what makes them attractive. So, lo and behold, we got Tex Watson uh
00:55:55
minister. Of course, he's trying to get out of prison to be paroled. He should stay right where where he is
00:56:01
for the rest of his life. And you got David Berkowitz up in Well, he was Attica when I interviewed him, but
00:56:08
I'm not sure where he is now, but but he he's also uh one of these so-called ministers. But, you can see why. You can
00:56:14
see why he would be he was definitely looking for this power when he was perpetrating those crimes up in New
00:56:21
York. When I pulled out the New York Daily News and I showed him the Son of Sam terrorizes New York City.
00:56:28
I mean, his eyes blue eyes just kind of lit up and he's looking at me, then he looks at my partner who's doing the
00:56:34
interview with uh it was me back back and forth and and to see if, you know, we're not trying to pull the wool over
00:56:39
his eyes, you know, that 100 years uh David, everyone's going to know you. No one's going to know me, but
00:56:47
everyone's going to know you, the Son of Sam of New York City. And uh I just kind of he just kind of
00:56:54
you know, opened up. So, everyone you get a little bit something, but uh some a little bit
00:56:59
you know, some of the the the ones that are are fairly smart. Dennis Rader is not
00:57:03
smart. Dennis Rader was lucky. Uh he he wasn't really that uh you know, you know, that intelligent and
00:57:11
and he got caught making a dumb mistake. Sometimes they they get caught because they feel like they're invincible.
00:57:17
Uh they can do anything. And they're they're just so much smarter than police. And that's usually the the time
00:57:22
we catch them is when they they start doing whatever they're doing, the crimes they're committing maybe with more
00:57:26
frequency, but they're becoming more of a risk-taker. And then they that's unfortunately, we have to wait for that
00:57:33
time before they can be uh be identified. One thing I've always wanted to ask you about John, and this
00:57:39
is because I don't think that the general public has a great understanding of how important this is when you're
00:57:44
trying to profile a criminal. Could you explain to us how important victimology is when you're putting
00:57:52
together your criminal profile? It's a good good question on victimology and because why it's a good question, too,
00:57:58
is is because when police submit a case, often times they just kind of skim over
00:58:04
the background, you know, of the victim. They don't provide enough in you know, information
00:58:10
on the victim. Trying to give a give an example, a case a case comes in and uh they may
00:58:19
they may say, "Well, the girl is a woman yes she was promiscuous or something." Or
00:58:23
uh you know, what what what do you mean? I mean, what do you mean by that? Or what we have to have years ago years and
00:58:29
years ago when my dad mom were alive and I I was a kid, there was a show This Is
00:58:33
Your Life. And someone would come out behind screen and start talking about uh their life to to to the
00:58:43
and you're trying to you're supposed to guess who this person is. And when I ask
00:58:47
for police, I said tell police to do victimology. You have to find out everything about this victim. I want to
00:58:54
know I'm trying to figure out why this victim was a victim of a crime. Was it was it he or she a victim of
00:59:00
opportunity? Uh in the wrong place at the wrong time? Is there something that the victim was was involved with you
00:59:07
know, here that increased the the risk level? Um give an example. Uh say a woman's driving down a highway,
00:59:15
runs out of gasoline. Uh a trucker come by or someone in the car offers offers a ride, shows up missing
00:59:24
and they find her body. She's dead. So, we have we start off with a and it's a difficult case, by the way, to solve cuz
00:59:29
we we start off with a with a very low risk victim. She car breaks down, runs out of gas, whatever, goes with somebody
00:59:36
she doesn't know. She's increased the risk level and could become the victim of violent
00:59:41
crime. The body in all probability will be disposed outside leaving very little forensic evidence to
00:59:49
you know to work with. Plus it also shows the mobility you know of the of the offender.
00:59:56
In the area of rape for example cuz lots of people think all these serial murder
01:00:00
cases you do do every kind of case really every you could do assessments, you could do public corruption
01:00:06
assessments, police corruption, you could do arson bombings, product tampering, extortion.
01:00:13
You know kidnappings. In the area of rape they'll come back and they'll say you know the the victim was raped the
01:00:18
subject performed sodomy on the victim. What do you mean? What do you mean? It means something in every different
01:00:25
state. I don't know you know what you what you mean. For me and this is what I will tell them. For me to do an analysis
01:00:31
of your case I have to know three components of of the rape case. I don't have to know
01:00:36
the verbal, the sexual and the physical assault that took place with that victim. Verbally
01:00:43
what was the subject saying when he confronted the victim? What was he saying to the victim if at all during
01:00:48
the sex act? What did he say when he left the victim? Physically how much force did he use? Did he use just enough
01:00:55
force to control the victim or was he excessive in the the amount of force? And thirdly sexually what did he do
01:01:02
sexually to the victim and in what order did he do these things sexually to the victim? So you you combine it all now in
01:01:10
verbal, sexual, physical you get the script here now having that information able to
01:01:17
to now decide which type of rape typology we're dealing with because there are five rape
01:01:23
typologies and once we we have that information we can I'll give you we have an extreme
01:01:30
one extreme on the left would be a power reassurance rapist. He's generally someone who lives in the
01:01:37
neighborhood. He's the called power reassurance cuz he's asking the victim how his performance is. He
01:01:44
asking for reassurance that he's performing well. To way over on the other side the other
01:01:49
extreme on the right side we'll say is the sexual sadist. No matter what the victim says, no matter how cooperative
01:01:56
the victim will be just to get out of this this mess with this with this guy. He goes way beyond what's necessary the
01:02:02
torture, the physical, the language, threatens to kill her and come back together. You know so and in between are
01:02:08
all the other ones too. It's it's all centered around power and anger but but having the information we can
01:02:15
and we can also determine if the type of maybe prior criminal histories that they
01:02:20
would have whether or not this is a transient guy or whether or not this is a local type of
01:02:27
rapist. Generally the the first one I mentioned the power reassurance type is someone who is uh
01:02:34
is in the area, has familiarity with the often times if it's an indoor case and more times than not they're indoors with
01:02:42
the power reassurance is is familiar with the residence, may have been there to paint the the walls of the the apartment
01:02:52
or shampoo the carpets, fix plumbing or just do voyeuristic activities has does not want to go on calls so has this
01:03:01
familiarity so we can you can determine that but you got to have the information. You got to you
01:03:05
have to educate the police to get the right and more times than not they may not have
01:03:11
that. They don't have that and you have to go back. And so victimology victimology is is key. And victimology
01:03:17
too could be there's a product tampering at a say a major company. So victimology
01:03:25
is not so much the person but really the the company. Okay what's going on with the company? Why would there be product
01:03:32
tampering going on? What what's is there any trouble going on? Is there trouble with the unions? Is
01:03:37
trouble with any supervisors and and subordinates? Are pay cuts or layoffs or anything you know like that?
01:03:44
So so that that becomes your victim. Your your victim is is not a person now it's a
01:03:51
you know it's a building and from that we can come up with you know always we can come up with the
01:03:57
a direction for the investigation. Thank you John Douglas for being on our show. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
01:04:04
Take care now. Bye-bye now. Joseph Condro never expressed any remorse for his deeds and in fact he
01:04:20
vowed to kill again even behind prison walls. He hinted that there have been other victims but saw nothing to gain by
01:04:27
confessing. Quote if you hook up a meter to my emotions they're flatline. Condro
01:04:33
said in a prison interview. I don't know where my emotions are. I couldn't give a damn what anyone thinks.
01:04:40
Authorities also suspect Condro killed 8-year-old Shaila Silvernails of Kalama whose strangled nude body was found in a
01:04:48
creek bed a day after she vanished on her way to catch the school bus. Silvernails mother had dated Condro.
01:04:57
In another interview Condro said quote what I would like to see result from publication of my story. Condro said he
01:05:04
hoped to explain what happened to a good healthy kid and cause the reader to take
01:05:09
better care of their children. Look what I have taken he said. I took a whole community's children. In 2012 murderer
01:05:17
Joseph Condro who was serving a life sentence for killing two Longview girls died in the state prison at Walla Walla.
01:05:25
Condro died of liver disease due to hepatitis C. He was 52 years old. Kara Rudd's
01:05:32
grandfather said he was happy to learn of Condro's death adding quote he's burning in hell right now. I hope he
01:05:40
suffered. And to quote the captain quote he's a real piece of [ __ ] This week we are recommending The Killer
01:05:47
Across the Table by dare I say good friend of the show Garage Army member the great John Douglas. Check out The
01:05:53
Killer Across the Table Unlocking the Secrets of Serial Killers and Predators with the FBI's original mind hunter.
01:06:00
This fascinating and haunting expert account helps us understand why the most shocking homicides occur and you can
01:06:07
find that title as well as others at our website truecrimegarage.com on the recommended page. If you're
01:06:14
looking for more True Crime Garage to listen to or old episodes download the Stitcher app and check out our show off
01:06:21
the record on Stitcher Premium. Until next time everybody be good, be kind and don't litter.