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foreign [Music] foreign garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks for listening I'm your host
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Nick and with me as always is a man that much like myself knows that garages and
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beers well these are some of the Finer Things in life he is the captain well of course you had a little beer you add a
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little lube and hey now it's good to be seen and it's good to see you thanks for
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listening thanks for telling my friend [Music] tonight we are drinking good life by
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bill'sburg Brewery garage great a big four bottle caps this is an IPA good life is Juicy hoppy and tropical
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slightly bitter like me with an ABV of 7.3 percent and today's fine selection was brought to us by first up we have a
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long distance cheers to Lilia in Auckland New Zealand and a big shout out to Danette and Chillicothe or also known
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as Chillicothe next up we have Mona in St Paul Minnesota who says cheers to taco Tuesdays and from this Romeo we
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have a cheers to Juliet and Temecula shmekula and California next up cheers to our boy hot dog all the way over in
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central Hong Kong and last but not least a shout out to one of our many trucker friends Steve out of Springfield Ohio
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and the big weed like you jib to all the truckers and all of you out there can stock the shelves for next week's show
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shirt today and that's enough for the business all right thank you Captain everybody gather around grab a chair
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grab a beer let's talk some true crime [Music] our story has a beautiful start to it
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because of the setting this week's case takes place in historic Virginia on a Scenic Parkway
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an area treasured by all Americans for its Colonial history natural beauty this is a gorgeous 23 Mile stretch of
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road that belongs to the National Park Service a desirable Drive linking the three
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points of Virginia's historic triangle Jamestown Williamsburg and Yorktown a roadway shielded from commercial
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development that does not allow semi trucks it is toll-free and has speed limits of just 35 to 45
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miles per hour it is also popular with tourists due to the James River and York River
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ends of the parkway an area that many have and will go out of their way to see and travel
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but then starting in 1986 there was great cause to avoid this area especially after Dark
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because during the course of four years not one not two not even three but four brutal and senseless double murders of
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young couples terrorized the Colonial Parkway region and then one day just as suddenly as it
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all had began the killings stopped now thirty years later the investigation into Virginia's oldest serial murder
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case continues and the murderer remains at Large this is the case of the Colonial Parkway
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murders [Music] [Applause] [Applause] [Music] foreign [Music] I've received a lot of great emails over
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the past few weeks sending us High Praise for some of our cases that we've covered lately several people saying
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that early 90s mid 90s cold cases is the bread and butter of True Crime garage and I appreciate beer and butter
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everyone's saying that our case today one that I'm very excited to cover this is a case that has always fascinated and
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intrigued me takes place in the mid to late 80s so we will see if we can receive such high praise for this
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coverage of this case of what I would call a cold case and there's some debate on to how cold this
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case and these cases actually are and we'll certainly get into that before we're through but there's what's great
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about this case there's been a lot of renewed interest in this case and I think it's because of the 30-year
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anniversary we have four double homicides the first that took place in 1986 the second in 87 then 88 and 89 and
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so what we've seen the last few years is a renewed interest in each one of these
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cases and the Colonial Parkway murders as a whole and we will continue to see that this year and next year as well now
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before we get into these cases that make up the Colonial Parkway murders we need
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to get a little background on the parkway itself understanding the environment of the Colonial Parkway is
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crucial to the cases we are going to discuss construction began on the Colonial Parkway in 1930 and it was completed in
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portions and would be a project that would take over 25 years the parkway was designed to follow the York and James
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Rivers which feed into the Atlantic Ocean on April 27 1957 the Colonial Parkway opened for traffic along the
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entire route between Yorktown and Jamestown the scenic 23 Mile parkway connects three of the most historic
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spots in our great country Yorktown on the York River where George Washington beat the Redcoats also Williamsburg
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which is Virginia's Colonial capital and Jamestown on the James River where the English settlers first founded colonies
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way back in 1607 it is part of the national park services Colonial National Historic Park which is a 10 000 acre
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Federal Park the parkway is windy and curvy with low overpasses no commercial vehicles or structures are on the
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parkway it is a three-lane road the center lane is for passing only the tree shaded passage is punctuated with Scenic
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pull-offs and picnic areas and both tourists and locals enjoy these recreational areas during the day to
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read picnic exercise or just enjoy the Virginia's historic culture deer and other Wildlife are often visible on the
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parkway's fringes but at night we have overhanging trees that cover the road and this makes it extremely dark out
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there as it was described in one article there are no street lights no call boxes
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no fast food restaurants or convenience stores where a driver might find refuge in case of a breakdown
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so once it's dark the pull-offs along the parkway attract a different crowd kids go there to party lovers meet for a
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nighttime tryst or who knows what else goes on there after dark a lot of sucking in the 1980s these areas had a
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reputation among authorities as being sites for hookups illegal drugs and underage drinking at any given time in
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the park two Patrol Rangers are on duty the Rangers Drive the parkway until midnight most nights and other nights
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all night long how many Park Rangers two at night time it's patrolled by two because there's this is a pretty big
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Park well it's a 23 Mile stretch of road and the other thing here though there's not
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a lot of access points to get on or off of this 23 Mile Stretch and what my thought is here is that you probably
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have you have two guys patrolling it throughout the night but you probably have a dispatcher that's on on call as
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well or or Manning the phones let's say right who if there were a call could then dispatch a ranger to your location
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now keep in mind though there's no call boxes and this is the 1980s we're not we're not calling people on cell phones
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if we break down yeah unless you're Doc Brown or Marty McFly well technically the park itself closes at Sunset but the
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parkway obviously stays open to traffic overnight some of the picnic areas are closed in the winter months and some
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pool offs have a 20-minute parking limit between the hours of 6 a.m and 10 p.m but are actually closed after 10 pm so
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you're not supposed to be on those things after dark the parkway falls under the Rangers jurisdiction because
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it is federal land owned by the National Park Service so when a serious crime is committed the
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York County Sheriff's Department is called in with police from neighboring locales assisting but the FBI may also
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become involved in investigations the most common offenses in the park are violations of driving and liquor laws as
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one would expect to give you a better idea the combined 1988 and 1989 statistics show that there were just
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over 2 400 traffic offenses 39 drunken driving charges 92 vehicle accidents where there was damage to
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Vehicles 11 with personal injuries one fatality and five hit and runs there were also two alcohol-related accidents
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during the course of those two years one additional aspect of the parkway that is intriguing surrounding it are
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the the Cheatham Annex Naval base and we also have the Yorktown Naval weapons station also nearby is Camp Perry which
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is a compound owned by the defense department where the CIA operates secret training missions
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now let's get to 1986 Captain so back in 1986 Rebecca and dorski is 21 years old
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she's from Poughkeepsie New York and a senior at William and Mary a prestigious liberal arts college located in
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Williamsburg Virginia yeah she transferred there from another school after two years and was majoring in
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business management she went by the nickname of Becky and was the youngest of five
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she was very athletic excelling at softball among other sports and had studied abroad in high school
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Kathleen Thomas age 27 was from Lowell Massachusetts well Kathy as she was known had attended the United States
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Naval Academy in Annapolis she was actually one of the first women to graduate from the academy in fact Kathy
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her brother and father were the first father-daughter-son family to graduate from Annapolis that's cool yeah Kathy
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followed in the footsteps of her father who was a career naval officer her family describes her as a Trailblazer
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obviously she's one of the first women to graduate from the Naval Academy but they describe her as loving life and
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excelled at whatever she wanted to do after graduation Kathy had served five years in the Navy as a protocol officer
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at Atlantic Fleet headquarters in Norfolk Virginia she had been discharged from the Navy earlier 1986 and was now
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working as a stockbroker at Brokers Securities Incorporated this is in Virginia Beach she was athletic and
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trained in martial arts Thursday night October 9 1986 was the start of the five-day Columbus Day holiday weekend
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for the College of William and Mary and Kathy was at the college visiting Becky as she did each Thursday evening what
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was not known to everyone at the school was that Kathy and Becky were in a romantic relationship and had been
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dating for about six months this was Virginia in the 80s and a lesbian couple this is not generally considered
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socially acceptable at this time Becky was Kathy's second steady girlfriend and the two actually had been introduced by
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Kathy's ex now but I think they were dating at the time what's that I think they were dating at the time and that's
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how they met okay most of Kathy's family knew about her sexuality and her relationship with Becky in fact Kathy's
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brothers and parents were expecting to meet Becky for the first time over Thanksgiving Becky's family however did
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not know that she was a lesbian Becky was scheduled to return home to Poughkeepsie for the holiday break her
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car was packed up and ready to go she had told her parents that she planned to stop and visit friends on the way home
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to New York so she might not arrive until Sunday now Kathy was visiting Becky at the college on that Thursday
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night October 9th her apartment was an hour's Drive Away Becky and Kathy were seen in the computer lab at William and
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Mary they left the lab around 9pm and left the campus at this time as well driving Kathy's car because the two were
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pretty much forced because of the times to keep their relationship on the down low they often would take a drive you
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know they would go off campus find somewhere that they could be alone now friends of theirs said that they would
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on occasion find a secluded spot along the Colonial Parkway on Saturday October 11th Becky's friends
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whom she had intended to visit on Friday and Saturday became alarmed when she never arrived and so they called the
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police in Virginia Maryland and Pennsylvania but nothing came of these calls so these calls they're not really
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calling to report her as missing but more so of an inquiry you know more of a where is she call than we know she is
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missing call we don't know whether anyone at Kathy's job reported that she did not show up
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for work on that Friday what we do know is that neither woman was reported missing then on Sunday October 12 1986
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around 5 30 p.m a jogger was running on the banks of the York River along the Colonial Parkway near Yorktown
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this part of the parkway is on the grounds of the United States Naval Supply Center it's just 10 miles east of
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the William and Mary campus this is federal property right this jogger spotted Kathy's 1980 White Honda Civic
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in the bushes the car was found perched at a 45 degree angle front and down in the Bramble
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covered embankment between a pull-off spot and the York River about 35 feet from the roadway
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the Honda wasn't visible from the road but the jogger was running on the river embankment and could see areas where
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passing cars could not the jogger assuming that the Honda had been in an accident alerted the park
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rangers who patrolled the parkway Rescuers arrived and broke the rear hatchback window of the car to gain
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access to the two people that they could see inside the car hoping that they were
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still alive so we have Rangers showing up to the scene they find this car in the Bush's nose down practically
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one of the Rangers for some reason believes that these individuals could still be alive it's not reported which
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Ranger decided to break the hatchback window right it's a little bit unclear and that might be important later and
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we'll get into that but that will be of some significance regardless the responders worked extremely hard to get
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into that car sadly what they found inside was gruesome not only were the two passengers inside dead but they
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could tell immediately that they were looking at a double homicide Park Rangers called the local field office of
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the FBI and waited for the feds to arrive a short time later the FBI investigators climbed down the
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embankment to the car once they saw the scene inside they photographed the car's location and
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positioning and then they had a wrecker tow the car back up to to the pull-off area near the road there was some debate
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whether they should do this because it's going to disturb their crime scene but the thought was that they thought by
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this point it had been Disturbed enough and that they weren't going to be able to examine the car in the manner that
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they wanted to so they had to kind of roll the dice and say yep let's have the tow truck pull this thing up and out of
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the bushes so we can look at it take a good look at it so what evidence was found by the FBI well they found Kathy's
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body crumbled in the hatchback section of the car Becky's body was in the back seat with her legs diagonally pointing
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to the front seats with one foot wedge between the door and the front seat both women were fully clothed and there was
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no immediate sign of any sexual assault investigators looked for driver's licenses to try to identify the victims
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right both Becky and Kathy's purses were found under the seats but Kathy's wallet
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was on the floor and out of her purse both women's wallets contained money a ring was still on Kathy's finger and
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investigators noted that it did not look like they had been robbed the bodies were taken to the State
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medical examiner's office the car was a mess with broken glass from the shattered back window there were leaves
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and there were there were blood inside the vehicle but a strange thing there was not enough blood according to
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investigators there should have been more meaning it didn't look like the women had been killed inside the car
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right they've been killed elsewhere and then placed inside the car well because they you know their throats were slit
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yes the the FBI shipped the Honda to the FBI lab in Washington where it was examined using the latest technology at
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the time according to Bill Thomas this is Kathy's brother who has become a victims
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advocate in this case and in my opinion a 100 expert in this case he says the Honda's driver side window was found in
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the rolled down position um I guess a approximately 150 partial fingerprints were found inside the car
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unfortunately though the breaking of the hatchback's rear window by Rescuers destroyed any fingerprints the killer or
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Killers could have left when closing the hatch on Kathy's you know after placing
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Kathy's body in that section of the car so the driver's side windows completely rolled down according to the brother
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according to her brother there are other reports that that state that the window
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was up and and her ID is the one that's found outside of her purse uh that's a good question Captain I have in my notes
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that her her wallet was found on the floor outside of her purse I do not know the the specifics regarding her ID okay
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so what it seems to me is that they pull over off the parkway into a spot that we're going to call a Lover's Lane
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right yeah and they're gonna do a little hanky-panky yeah and at some point what it seems like is that somebody
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approached them uh doesn't look like there's any like wreckage to the vehicle so they weren't
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hit doesn't look like anybody hit the car so it seems very that whoever approached them was friendly at the time
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of their approachment yeah that makes any sense and then at some point the driver's side window gets rolled down
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maybe it was rolled down before the person approached them maybe it wasn't but now we have these two it's almost
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like they got out their information to show somebody like a police officer or um park ranger or somebody pretending to
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be a a law enforcement well and that has always been one of the huge questions regarding this double homicide were the
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two ladies parked and then approached by a vehicle or were they followed to that
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location now were they pulled over yeah well the autopsy reports estimate that Becky and Kathy had likely been killed
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sometime between 9 30 pm on October 9th and midnight on October 10th so that's that's a big window and I think
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the other thing here that makes this tricky is the large window of the time that they were last known to have been
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seen on the William and Mary campus to when their bodies are found on that Sunday I mean we're talking days later
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so there is some question as to where was the actual last sighting of these two individuals and one being that there
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was a a sighting of two women at the York Pub this is an area that would be near you know they would have went past
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the York Pub to have gone from William and Mary to where they were eventually found the York Pub would be a place that
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it was more of a restaurant than a bar but people would go there to get something to eat maybe have a beer or
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two while they're there there was thought that the last meal that they ate contained hamburger and that would go
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along with having been at the York Pub however of those site of those sightings those are kind of unconfirmed sightings
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of the two ladies so if we go by the coroner's estimation of as early as 9 30 PM keep in mind this area that they were
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found is about 10 miles away from the campus that they left around nine o'clock you know so this could have been
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a very short time period And as you mentioned they could have been pulled over by somebody that was following them
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or they parked there to talk or whatever for a while and somebody approaches the
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vehicle and there is a possibility a small possibility that they went out there to meet somebody we have no
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evidence of that but there that is a possibility so more evidence Captain the medical examiner found that Kathy and
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Becky's hands had been bound and they had both been strangled with nylon rope their hands had been untied at some
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point and the Rope had been taken away by the killer since it was not found at the scene later but rope Burns had been
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left on the victim's wrist and necks and later investigators would find a three inch piece of rope that was
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embedded in the back of Kathy's neck although both women were strangled their throats had been slit as well beyond the
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ear to ear Kathy so severely that when her body was removed from the car Law Enforcement
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Officers could see down her windpipe she was nearly decapitated now the webbed area between Kathy's right hand at the
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the thumb and pointer finger area was ripped and there was also bruising to this hand as if she had put up a bit of
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a struggle or had been clawing at the Rope around her neck she had a clump of hair in her hand but
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otherwise the women showed few defensive wounds which both families you know we gave it a fair description of both of
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these ladies both being tough one having completed the Navy Academy right both being
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athletic both families found it extremely strange that the two didn't put up a bigger fight right which makes
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you wonder did they meet somebody out there that they knew or did the person that approached them if it was you know
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law enforcement or somebody pretending to be in law enforcement it'd be a lot easier for this killer to control his
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victims foreign [Music] we're back Cheers Cheers captain and I apologize for going through the
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brutality of this crime but there's no way around it there there are things and I believe Clues within what had happened
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to these ladies and what was done by the perpetrator or perpetrators at this crime scene yeah this is not a podcast
00:25:31
about soccer right so we have we have some issues here Captain because like I said the investigators were shocked at
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the brutality of this crime they say that it was a classic example of Overkill maybe suggesting that it was
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somebody that knew them and had hatred for one at least one of these victims but both women were tied up
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and this is a tricky thing because this might indicate the possibility of two perpetrators and the families of both of
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these women have always wondered this because they had wondered why would the other
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sit there and wait as the single perpetrator tied up The Other Woman move and do something and I'm gonna slit her
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throat right I get it again you're not moving I get it I love that person you're not
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moving I no I get that but there's there's a likelihood that both hands on the perpetrator would be busy at some
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point and the thought the the thing that the families keep shouting out is how tough these two individuals were right
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and their belief that they would fight now Kathy's car and the women's bodies they
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had been doused in diesel fuel now some earlier reports state that it was kerosene and and this was very tricky to
00:26:48
try to decipher most reports State diesel fuel some report kerosene I even heard an
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interview with one of the investigators that investigated this crime and he kind
00:27:01
of flip-flops back and forth during the course of this interview and he even mentions diesel fuel but he also
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mentions kerosene so I was hoping to get some clarification from him regarding this and I don't think we have that like
00:27:14
I said most reports State diesel fuel so we will roll with that apparently the perpetrator the killer or Killers had
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attempted to light the car on fire several matches were found at the top of the embankment the car had been put into
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neutral and pushed down the hill toward the river where it became lodged in the bushes diesel fuel apparently does not
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ignite you know it burns hotter than gasoline does but it has a much higher ignition point than gasoline does so
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whoever tried to light this car on fire either didn't know that or at the very least they were unsuccessful
00:27:55
they're out there out in the woods using matches trying to light this vehicle on
00:27:59
fire so the investigators found it very puzzling that the murderer had access to
00:28:05
diesel fuel meaning that he must have brought it to the scene with him because diesel fuel is not extremely common it's
00:28:12
not something that you know regular motorists drive around within the trunk of their vehicle or in the bed of their
00:28:19
truck so just so I'm following this correctly he he takes these two individuals out of the car
00:28:25
ties them up strangles them with the Rope maybe they're dead maybe they're not dead maybe the maybe the suspect doesn't
00:28:34
know if they are so then Cuts their throat puts them back in the car that's why there would be less blood in
00:28:42
the car because they were cut outside of the vehicle correct put back into the car
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and then dalston diesel fuel it doesn't light because it doesn't it has a higher
00:28:54
lighting ignition point pushes the car down so almost like the fire I couldn't get it to you know the evidence would be
00:29:03
burned away fingerprints all that stuff would be burned away but now that it's not going
00:29:09
to be burned away I'm going to push the car closer to the water well and thank you for saying that
00:29:15
because the thing here is one thing I always wondered about this case so before I get in into this whole thing
00:29:22
here just to touch upon something yes the detective surprised that the actual murders happened outside of the car for
00:29:29
several reasons one there should have been more blood inside of the car and two a Honda Civic hatchback is a very
00:29:36
small car so it would have been very difficult for these murders to take place inside of that small confined
00:29:43
space so moving on to the burning of the vehicle and then trying to push it down
00:29:49
into the river you know years ago when I looked into this case I'd always questioned their
00:29:56
findings of the statement that the car was put into neutral lit on fire and then pushed down the embankment I always
00:30:04
thought that maybe there was a chance that the vehicle was pushed down the embankment and when it got caught in the
00:30:10
bushes the killer then goes oh crap my attempt at concealing this vehicle by pushing it down into the river didn't
00:30:20
work out so now I'm going to burn it because the burning of the vehicle seems strange to me we described how dark this
00:30:26
place would have been and we do know that it is being patrolled but it's not heavily patrolled
00:30:31
right right doesn't a fire just like call screaming attention to your crime scene to the the murders that actually
00:30:39
the victims having sat there in the car having sat there for the possibility of two or three days well it might cause
00:30:47
attention oh it's going to cause a lot of attention at night right not so much attention during the day the thing here
00:30:54
is after having studied this further I think that they were right and not necessarily just because the matches the
00:31:02
matches that were attempted to have been used were found up by the roadway I think they're right because one thing
00:31:08
I didn't know before was that the interior of the car as well as the bodies of the two victims had been
00:31:14
doused in the same fuel in that diesel fuel and what I mean by that is we saw how
00:31:20
much the Rangers struggled to get into the vehicle after it was lodged in the bushes
00:31:27
the killer would have had the same problem and therefore it would have been extremely difficult for him to douse the
00:31:33
female victims as well as the interior of the vehicle with this diesel fuel after having become a lodged in the
00:31:41
bushes so I think the detectives are spot on with their speculation of yes these murders occurred outside of the
00:31:48
vehicle the victims were then placed inside the vehicle the vehicle set on fire and then
00:31:54
the attempt of pushing it down the embankment well it's weird too because it seems like the manner in which they
00:32:00
were killed and then the manner in which somebody tried to cover the sub it seems
00:32:05
very amateurish it does and it's weird in a way that like you had mentioned if if you're tying up two people and you're
00:32:13
a lone perpetrator and your way of controlling the victims and keeping them together is by threatening the lives of
00:32:21
one of them well then that means you have some means of threatening them we know that a knife was brought to the
00:32:27
scene because the throats were slit right and one could guess maybe a gun was used because as you had mentioned
00:32:36
maybe they thought a person of authority was approaching their vehicle that night
00:32:41
or had pulled them over this being a park ranger or a police officer but as any investigator will explain
00:32:48
once we're face to face if I have a gun and you don't I'm somebody of authority whether I have a badge or not and so if
00:32:57
in fact this killer we know that we brought the knife at some point they they have diesel fuel there they have
00:33:03
rope there with them and possibly a gun as well I mean how many weapons this seems like a somebody goes out in the
00:33:10
middle of the night and brings everything they can think of to bring with them to make sure hey I'm gonna
00:33:15
kill somebody tonight and there's nothing that's going to stop me yeah it's like a Fisher Price my first murder
00:33:19
kit well the murders were so vicious that at the time the investigators they had to assume that it was personal so
00:33:27
they started looking into everyone in Kathy and Becky's lives talking to their friends and families and and pursuing
00:33:34
multiple leads well and yeah and X relationships well initially the entire 50 agent Norfolk FBI office worked this
00:33:44
case and park rangers even stopped drivers on the Parkway and asked them if they had seen anyone or anything that
00:33:51
could be related to this investigation the York River near the scene was dragged similar cases in other regions
00:33:59
were searched for Kathy's ex her name is Jolene was thoroughly investigated and none of this panned out none of it
00:34:07
really LED anywhere there were so many unanswered questions and she was highly suspect for a while because she was seen
00:34:14
with them on the last day that they were seen and that she also had a class with
00:34:19
her ex so they really kind of narrowed in on her and try to try to shake her you know and and just nothing came out
00:34:27
well you know what was was interesting was I I read a bunch of interviews with Kathy circle of friends including her ex
00:34:36
that were conducted years and years later and one thing that they all kind of pointed out was they believe that Jolene
00:34:43
was considered a suspect because one as you stated that there seemed to be it seemed to be that this new relationship
00:34:50
started right after that old relationship had ended and what all of her friends would later say in these
00:34:57
interviews is that they don't think that in the 1980s that the FBI really understood a lesbian relationship and
00:35:05
that they couldn't kind of wrap their heads around it and therefore they they really honed in on this Jolene person
00:35:11
where all of the Kathy's friends all along had always said there was nothing there that that
00:35:18
relationship was over and in in what was even uh more interesting was that Jolene
00:35:24
had introduced Kathy to Becky yeah but see that's where the story is crisscross and some people say that after the
00:35:33
relationship ended is when she said hey you might like Kathy and then the other side of the story is that during why
00:35:42
they're dating is when she met Kathy and so it's almost like she took her away and so I just think it's just um rumors
00:35:50
well no I'm going off of the people that knew the three of these the most right I'm just saying for years that was one
00:35:57
of the rumors was that it had to be the X because uh she took her away from her yeah
00:36:04
well like I said so many unanswered questions in this um the things that here's some things
00:36:11
that I try to wrap my head around when talking about this one this is a long drawn out double killing so how did the
00:36:20
suspect have time to do this this is outside of the car in a public spot and seemingly without the fear of detection
00:36:28
so that's one question and then if he had planned to burn the car why did he remove the bindings holding the girls
00:36:37
you know and and he cut the rope from Kathy's neck but he left a three inch piece of this that was one question I
00:36:45
had going into it and I think some of the research I did explained that answer to me once in a while we get some
00:36:52
answers the investigator one of the investigators pointed out that it's his opinion that the three-inch piece of
00:36:58
rope was left there on accident that the killer had slit the throat while the neck was still tied right so that makes
00:37:07
some clarification there and then you also have to wonder was there a chance that the killer killed
00:37:13
them somewhere else entirely and then drove the car with the bodies in the back of the car to the abandoned to
00:37:20
abandon it along the parkway it's very possible as well the other strange thing here kind of the tough thing here is
00:37:26
because it's outside because it's in you know there's a grassy area and stuff and
00:37:31
so many days later do we find the vehicle in the bodies that evidence could you know if it rains
00:37:39
you know a lot of the evidence can leave the scene well and what's the motive and
00:37:44
I think this is another reason why they look at the inner circles because what's
00:37:47
the motive there was no robbery and there was no sexual assault now let's move forward in our timeline
00:37:54
to almost a year later we have David nobling he is 20 years old and lives in Hampton Virginia David's family say he
00:38:03
is someone who would do anything to help out his friends and family he is plain and simple just a nice guy
00:38:10
he and Robin Robin is only 14 years old they had met earlier that day this is Saturday September 19
00:38:19
1987. and just put this out there I've seen this case covered by several things and and nobody ever points out that
00:38:27
that's a little odd we have a 20 year old hanging out with a 14 year old I know it's in the 80s but the times were
00:38:34
not that much different I find it a little strange they met when a group of friends including David's brother
00:38:40
Michael and their younger cousin went to an arcade in Newport Robin liked older boys uh she was smart and even wise for
00:38:49
her young age she was involved in peer counseling and David had just learned that his girlfriend at the time was
00:38:56
pregnant there's some talk if it was his ex-girlfriend or his current girlfriend
00:39:00
but the two of them spent some time that evening talking later David drove home he drove the whole group home after
00:39:08
dropping Robin off at her house around 11 pm David and his brother went home they ordered pizza and they watched TV
00:39:15
we don't know for sure what transpired between David and Robin during that short time that they had met but later
00:39:22
investigators and both families guessed that the two had planned to meet up so Robin took off to meet him David left
00:39:30
his family's home around midnight not telling Michael where he was going David was known to drive out to a place called
00:39:37
ragged Island this is a ragged Island Wildlife Refuge in his black Ford pickup ragged Island
00:39:45
was a secluded marshy Wildlife Refuge which was known as a teen hangout and a party spot Robin and David's families
00:39:53
noticed that they were missing the next day and apparently they must have had some kind of discussion between the two
00:39:59
families because after they pieced This Together the families decided that the two must have gone off together Robin
00:40:07
had run away before apparently her mother worked nights so I don't know if she was just waiting for her mother to
00:40:13
leave for work and then she was free to leave the house and go do whatever she wanted to do hang out with with uh David
00:40:22
or whatever you know but both families acknowledge that the two possibly could have quote hooked up despite the age
00:40:29
difference early Monday morning a sheriff's deputy spotted David's Ford Ranger pickup in
00:40:35
the parking lot at the Wildlife Refuge at the southern foot of the James River Bridge this is not a location on the
00:40:43
Colonial Parkway but this is the opposite side of the James River now the driver's side door was open the keys
00:40:51
were in the ignition the engine was not running but the wipers were still on and
00:40:56
the trucks radio was blaring some sources indicate that the driver's side window was partially open
00:41:03
the deputy saw close strewn about the cab of the truck which turned out to be Robin and David's underwear and some
00:41:10
shoes they also found a wallet on the dashboard despite this ominous scene though the deputy figured the driver had
00:41:18
just stepped away and he turned the ignition to off right Robin's family reported her absence later that day and
00:41:26
the connection was made to the truck that had been found on ragged Island which was towed Away by County officials
00:41:32
family members noted that Robin's purse was not found in the truck organized searches began with both officials and
00:41:40
family members searching in two days of heavy rain David's family says they knew
00:41:46
as soon as the truck was found that something was terribly wrong his truck was his pride and joy and he would never
00:41:53
have left it with the keys still in it for anyone to steal there was some thought that the truck
00:42:00
had been driven by somebody else for one thing David always parked the truck in reverse so it was facing out of the
00:42:08
parking spot the truck was found nose in and David and his brother had rigged the
00:42:13
truck so that the keys did not to need to be in the ignition to have the radio on but in this case the radio was on and
00:42:21
the keys were found in the ignition right so two days later on September 22nd David's stepfather
00:42:28
he was searching on ragged Island's Shores a mile into the reserve for any sign of his stepson when a nearby jogger
00:42:36
named Lewis Ford spotted what he thought was just a pile of clothes instead it turned out to be the body of
00:42:43
Robin Edwards who had been shot in the back of the head several Reports say that her genes were
00:42:49
undone and her bra was pushed up although it wasn't clear if this was done by water the killer or weather or
00:42:58
whatever right you know maybe she could have been interrupted during the state of some kind of state of undress yeah
00:43:04
maybe in a state of pre-coitus soon afterwards Carl found David shirtless a few dozen yards away at the base of an
00:43:12
embankment David had also been shot once in the shoulder and once in the back of
00:43:17
the head the caliber of gun used has never been released to the public although I did hear one investigator
00:43:25
many years later going off of memory saying it might have been a 38. investigators guessed that David had
00:43:32
tried to make a run for it toward the woods and had been brought down with the shoulder shot and then executed it
00:43:40
looked to authorities as though the young pair had died between 12 30 a.m and 5 30 a.m on on Sunday morning a
00:43:49
group of teens who had been partying at the parking lot told police that when they left at 2 am David's truck was not
00:43:56
there yet now we know from reports Right comes out years later that it's believed that Robin had had
00:44:05
sex before she died but in those days DNA testing was not available to determine who she had sex with what was
00:44:13
strange was that David and Robin were found about a mile from the truck you know so did they walk the mile in
00:44:21
the Pitch Black in the middle of the night to The River's Edge or had someone possibly driven them to within 200 yards
00:44:28
of the shore where you could pull over shoot them and then drive the truck back to where it was later found yeah well
00:44:35
let's go into detail this again so the one somebody comes up on them they're in the
00:44:42
truck they get them out of the truck take them about a mile away kill them leave the scene yeah
00:44:52
there's also the possibility that they're out of the truck for whatever reason we maybe the truck wasn't in that spot
00:45:01
trucks in a different location maybe they're not that far away from the truck but they're outside of the truck for
00:45:08
whatever reason this murderer comes up on him kills them there the murderer moves the truck
00:45:15
right right so that would be option two yep and then the other option is what you said is that
00:45:22
the murderer took them out a mile in the truck killed them and then moved the truck
00:45:29
possibility yeah yeah the thing here though that the families have questioned regarding them being outside of the
00:45:37
truck uh one being that the families both seem to think that the two of them would have went there for
00:45:44
one of two reasons either to party you know to do to do drugs and drink or to hook up
00:45:50
or both and what the families have often said regarding this is given the weather that
00:45:57
night and given how cold it was that evening it had rained quite a bit that day as well both families believe that
00:46:04
whatever they went there to do especially if it was one of those two reasons or both that they would have
00:46:10
done that inside the truck so we have a situation where it seems like the family
00:46:16
believes that if they were approached by somebody they were probably sitting in the truck when approached well it's so
00:46:22
strange to me the door was found open yeah so this is strange well you know what I actually think went down and I
00:46:30
and I don't I'm not going to sit here and pretend to know where they were killed or or how they were approached by
00:46:37
their eventual killer but I think what took place is this I actually think they were killed elsewhere out away from the
00:46:44
truck and away from where they were eventually found I think that whoever shot them killed them and then attempted
00:46:52
to dump their bodies in the river where they were later washed ashore and I think that the killer after having
00:46:58
dumped the bodies left the truck with the keys in it in the parking lot with the door open and the radio on as a
00:47:07
way to maybe entice somebody to steal the truck could you imagine if you are out in the middle of this wildlife
00:47:15
refuge and you shoot two people you're able to successfully Place their bodies in the river which the water takes them
00:47:23
away and then you place their truck in a place where it gets stolen and then maybe moved even states away
00:47:30
you're likely are not going to get caught for that double homicide yeah I see what you're saying but I don't think
00:47:36
that this killer is that sophisticated when Robin and David were found no one connected the
00:47:44
case to the murders of Kathy and Becky for one thing Dave and Robin were not found along the parkway ragged island is
00:47:51
nearly 30 miles South of the Parkway and the Mo's were not the same and the manner of death was completely different
00:47:59
we have strangulation in the throat slitting in the first one and then gunshots in the second the sheriff
00:48:05
investigating along with the state police stated that they had two suspects in this particular case but were having
00:48:13
difficulty Gathering evidence to bring them to justice we do know that the sheriff had a theory that a man named
00:48:20
Sammy reader may have been involved apparently he had failed a polygraph and had admitted to taking money
00:48:28
from David's wallet that was found inside of his truck the thing here is Sammy reader would give multiple stories
00:48:39
to the Sheriff's Department regarding what went down that evening and one story he states that he saw the two exit
00:48:49
the truck and they walked down to the beach and that's when he approached the truck and
00:48:55
kind of went through it to see what he could find while they were away and another story he says that they went off
00:49:01
into the bushes and same thing occurred he went into the truck to see what he could find and took money from the
00:49:07
wallet so so we know he's a thief and we know he's a liar well and by his own accord he was inside the vehicle at some
00:49:15
point you wonder is he the person that left the door open well if you need to explain away fingerprints you just did
00:49:22
if you can convince law enforcement that you didn't kill these two but just in fact stole money from them given the
00:49:28
opportunity yes so you're you're a liar you're a thief and you were born in a barn well the third story and forgive me
00:49:35
Captain because I don't know the order in which these stories were delivered I do know that there were three different
00:49:41
stories given to police during the course of questioning and they all varied slightly well one of the stories
00:49:47
is that there were other people in this area hanging out and partying I don't know if these were I imagine it would be
00:49:53
people similar in age to Robin and to David you know teens early 20s hanging out and partying the problem with that
00:50:02
though is investigators sought that angle and they couldn't find anybody else that would admit to having been in
00:50:10
the area that night so the first murders take place in 1986 the second the double
00:50:16
homicide the second double homicide happens in 87 but now that's 30 some miles away from the parkway but now
00:50:24
we're gonna have another murder in 88 Keith call and Sandy Haley were on a first date on sept
00:50:34
a and Sandy Haley were on a first date on Saturday April 9th 1988 they both were students at Christopher Newport
00:50:42
University in Newport News where they were classmates Sandy was an 18 year old freshman who modeled and taught High
00:50:50
School gymnastics as she entered College Keith was 20 years old and his friends and family describe him as a quote
00:50:57
computer geek in a Time way before computers were popular while he was going to school for computer science
00:51:04
something you know a lot about Keith had borrowed a shirt from his brother that day so he could look good for his date I
00:51:12
guess they attended a party at the University Square Apartments although they had told Sandy's mom that they were
00:51:19
going to go to a movie of course well they're you know that's typical teenager crap right 20 and 18 yeah yeah you go
00:51:28
and you have a few drinks and you tell everybody else you're going to the movies we're going to the library both
00:51:33
Sandy and Keith were seen at the party uh they were seen talking to other people though and it actually didn't
00:51:39
look like the date was going well to other people the two seem to be getting along but
00:51:46
they weren't really they didn't seem to be any romantic Spark all right but he's
00:51:50
a computer geek so he might have some social flaws uh I think that they were both of them
00:51:57
actually were out of recent relationships and I think both of them at some point had told people at the
00:52:05
party that uh you know hey Keith's a nice guy but I kind of miss so and so and I think you
00:52:12
know Keith probably said the same thing you know Sandy's really nice girl super cool but you know I'd rather kind of be
00:52:18
back in my relationship yeah I went on a date like that one time we went to a coffee shop and we just got coffee and
00:52:25
we decided to walk down the main street of Ohio State campus and after two hours
00:52:30
I'm talking about my ex and her talking about her ex it was like okay well this is more of a therapy session than it was
00:52:38
a date right right and and this it doesn't look like anything bad was going on just like I said no romantic Sparks
00:52:45
seemed to be happening it seemed like the two of them were more interested in hanging out separately at this party and
00:52:50
talking to their different clicks or their different friends there so friends say that the two left the party before 2
00:52:57
A.M and this is roughly about 1 30. yeah because well Sandy lived at home and her curfew
00:53:03
was 2 A.M so they would have left there with enough time to get her home to meet
00:53:10
her curfew and this is pretty late when you consider the time frame you know being 88. on Sunday morning around 7 A.M
00:53:18
Keith's father was driving to work and saw his son's red 1982 Toyota Celica parked at the small York River Overlook
00:53:28
along the Colonial Parkway the vehicle was unoccupied this was between one and three miles from the location of Kathy
00:53:39
and Becky the first victims that were found 18 months earlier so his father stopped looked inside nothing seemed to
00:53:48
be out of place he shouted several times for his son but you know no Keith so he
00:53:54
decided to continue along his way he was driving to work at 9 A.M a park ranger reported the vehicle as abandoned a
00:54:04
Rangers waited until Monday to call the FBI who had jurisdiction because of the parkway's federal designation the car
00:54:13
was impounded by then Sandy and Keith had been reported missing okay so I know that seems a little confusing but
00:54:21
basically what we have is these two individuals leave the party they've were not spotted all of the next
00:54:28
day they're unheard from first his father finds the vehicle abandoned then later the Rangers reported as abandoned
00:54:37
they have it impounded but at some point authorities are going to make the connection between this abandoned
00:54:45
vehicle and then the two that had been reported missing so Rangers reported that when they found
00:54:51
the Celica the driver's door was open the windows were down and Keith's car keys were in the ignition some Reports
00:54:59
say that the keys were on the seat but most in the ignition one this is so strange too because the father finds it
00:55:05
before the park rangers find it and he doesn't shut the door or maybe he does shut the door and then
00:55:13
it's opened by somebody else later um you're getting into an area that's that's very
00:55:20
interesting regarding this case because the description that Keith's father gives of the vehicle is vastly different
00:55:29
than the description that the Rangers give and this is one of those sad moments in
00:55:36
a case that and it's not realized until many many years later so myself was in this group as well but
00:55:44
but mainly Keith's father is the one that I want to talk about here when Keith's father found the car he
00:55:51
said that the way that the thing looked to him was that the two had went there parked and were hanging out and just had
00:55:56
gotten out of the car at some point and went off somewhere and when he shouted and called for his
00:56:02
son's name and his son never showed up he just assumed that the two were off let's say having a good time okay and he
00:56:10
heading to work decided to continue on when he found the vehicle like I said it was described completely different the
00:56:18
way that the Rangers would later describe it and the thought that that had been shared by Keith's family and
00:56:25
the general public for many many years was that holy crap did did his father stumble stumble upon this vehicle and
00:56:33
then at some point the killer returned to return items belonging to the two to the vehicle because when he found the
00:56:42
vehicle it seemed to be practically empty and um I can't remember if he saw the keys
00:56:48
or not I think he did see the keys but there apparently there were no clothing there was no clothing found in the car
00:56:54
he didn't see any or claims he didn't see any when the park rangers come to find it they find a lot of them clothing
00:57:02
almost all of each person's clothing well we would learn the truth of that and what I mean by this is like I said
00:57:12
for many many years a lot of people believe there was a chance the killer had returned to the vehicle in that
00:57:18
short window of time between when Keith's father had found it and then later the Rangers find it what we would
00:57:24
learn the the Rangers would later come out and admit to this and this is quite embarrassing on their end
00:57:30
what had happened was they had found the vehicle before Keith's father made it to
00:57:36
the car right they collected items that were found inside the vehicle and took them with them
00:57:43
later they realized that this car was not just abandoned it was connected to these missing persons so what they ended
00:57:52
up doing is the put in the items back they put them back in and and returned the vehicle to how going off of memory
00:58:00
as to how they had originally found it yeah awkward well the sad thing here is Keith's father you know this information
00:58:08
didn't come out until many many years later and I don't have it here in my notes Captain but I believe it wasn't
00:58:13
until 2007 or 2009 so we're talking 18 maybe 20 years later that this information
00:58:21
comes out and Keith's father passes away never having known the truth and never understanding why he found the vehicle
00:58:29
in one state and very shortly after the Rangers claimed that it was in a different state right so but so when
00:58:38
they do find this and they know that these individuals are missing they start searching right and then they once they
00:58:44
can't find these individuals they start thinking that they they might be in the water
00:58:50
correct yeah there was a thought and I kind of you hear the the tone that I changed to there
00:58:56
the the running theory that the Rangers had was that the two decided to take off
00:59:04
their clothes leave the clothes in the vehicle and then go down to the water to go skinny dipping yeah because when
00:59:11
you're on a bad date that's something you do that's usually where that leads hey you want to see my
00:59:18
twig and berries and go for a dip sure well there's a lot of problems with that and and we got too much to cover for me
00:59:27
to go through all of the issues with that but let's talk about what was found in the vehicle okay so we said that the
00:59:34
keys were found in the ignition or on the seat now we also have Keith's wallet that was
00:59:39
found in the back seat with 12 dollars inside of it and a watch and Eyeglasses were on the dashboard all of Keith's
00:59:46
clothing and shoes were found scattered inside of the car and most of Sandy's clothing including one shoe and her bra
00:59:55
were found inside the car Sandy's purse was in the car but her wallet was missing two empty beer cans were in the
01:00:03
back some reports indicate that the glove box was open the clothes in the car LED Rangers to believe that for some
01:00:11
reason the couple had decided to go skinny dipping okay let's touch on this just for a second never mind that it's 2
01:00:17
A.M the temperature that night in April was was 40 some degrees and who goes swimming in Polar Bear Club
01:00:26
right shrinkage um and the Overlook was up high on the embankment Okay so here's the big problem that the family
01:00:36
had initially with this Theory they said look it's too cold and second of all it
01:00:42
doesn't make any sense that the two would strip down to nothing and then walk over a half a mile down the road to
01:00:49
go skinny dipping in the middle of the night so furthermore is Sandy naked except for one shoe you know what
01:00:58
I mean is she walking down the street in one shoe half a mile to get to this location
01:01:03
uh this Theory by the Rangers was was abandoned fairly quickly um once the FBI stepped in and once the
01:01:13
family imagine the the FBI shows up and goes this is what you came up with guys this is what you came up with and you
01:01:20
know that the two Rangers that are on duty they failed the FBI test you know that right so they wanted to be FBI
01:01:27
because the FBI and the cias are right around the corner training their training facilities are right around the
01:01:33
corner and these flunkies come across a vehicle they take stuff out of it they have to put it back in
01:01:39
based off memory and then they come up with these goofy ideas you know that the FBI was giving them [ __ ] about this well
01:01:45
the the funny thing here is like so the the Rangers come out with this Theory and they kind of announce it publicly
01:01:52
right away and there and we would learn that that's kind of why they confiscated the items that they had
01:01:58
originally found they thought that the two had just walked away from the vehicle
01:02:03
um the families publicly said look this story makes no sense this Theory makes no sense we're all for theories and
01:02:11
trying to figure out what happened to our loved ones but this story makes no sense this is not a great Theory well
01:02:16
and if you thought they went skinny dipping why would you steal their clothes so they then when they come back to the
01:02:23
car that they have to drive naked well and then then the FBI finally steps in and the FBI says look we discredited
01:02:30
this Theory through things we found in the investigation and by using common sense
01:02:39
was their statement that they gave so and and look we're knocking these Park Rangers but hey we've we've talked to
01:02:45
several Park Rangers that have brilliant brains the I'm just saying that these these ones did not yeah
01:02:53
and who knows who knows what's going on in this situation but the feds did set up a makeshift headquarters and they
01:03:01
were assigned to follow up on All Leads now a Tides expert indicated to investigators that if the bodies had
01:03:08
been thrown into the York River it would take at least three days for them to surface this is based off of the depth
01:03:16
of the river now on Thursday one of the search boats radioed that it had found a
01:03:22
body in the river but the body was of a middle-aged African-American man it turns out that this man had fell off of
01:03:30
a boat a few days my notes say a few days earlier but I believe that they think that this man
01:03:36
could have been in the river for as long as a week or two yeah I believe so despite multiple searches using scent
01:03:42
dogs Nets to drag the York River and helicopters the bodies of Keith and Sandy have never been found they are
01:03:50
presumed however to be dead now I do want to bring this up because one thing that I think really hindered this
01:03:56
investigation was when they brought in these scent dogs now these were cadaver dogs they were hitting on the water
01:04:04
indicating that they were hitting that a body was in the water we've seen this before in other cases though well the
01:04:10
dogs were right I mean eventually a body was found in the river it just wasn't you know the dogs aren't able to tell
01:04:16
you look there's a body in the river it's just not the one you're looking for for the first time after their
01:04:22
disappearance people began to wonder if this could be related to what happened to the others yeah the possibility of
01:04:29
connections among the cases was raised in the media for the first time in April of 1988. in May the FBI offered a ten
01:04:39
thousand dollar reward for information on the 1986 Kathy and Becky case special agent Irwin Wells acknowledged
01:04:47
to the press the possibility that a serial killer was at work but cautioned that quote nothing other than
01:04:54
speculation and geography linked the cases the families wondered how did Keith and Sandy end up so far
01:05:03
from the party and from their homes the parkway was totally out of their way it was not necessary for them to travel on
01:05:12
the parkway well it's possible that this murderer Picks Them Up anywhere yes yeah you know I mean and then sees
01:05:24
them at the party goes hey there's two awkward people leaving together I'm gonna take them over takes
01:05:31
both of them over murders them takes um Keith's vehicle and and Parks it well that's to make it look like they were
01:05:40
approached at the Parkway because if you're the parkway serial killer then you know finding his truck somewhere
01:05:48
else doesn't go with your MO well and you bring up something interesting there so if in fact the
01:05:55
parkway murders are all connected my thought is if if we're going to include this double homicide of Keith
01:06:04
and Sandy along in this and say they're all linked then the issue here is there these two would not have been on the
01:06:12
parkway I couldn't find any reason to suggest that they would have been on the parkway other than
01:06:18
let's say things suddenly were going well on the date and they decided they wanted to park somewhere this doesn't
01:06:24
really make any sense though when we review what was going on that night we know that she had a limited
01:06:32
amount of time to get home for curfew they left the party with basically just enough time to get her home for a curfew
01:06:40
they would not have traveled the Colonial Parkway to return Sandy to her home and furthermore both of them told
01:06:48
several people at the party when they were getting ready to leave I'm taking Sandy home oh he's taking me
01:06:55
home it it almost seems like something happened to the two of them after they left the party and between the party and
01:07:03
Sandy's home something happened to them maybe they were killed elsewhere and then the vehicle as you said taken to
01:07:12
the parkway maybe this indicates that the parkway is more important to the killer than the actual victim right and
01:07:20
you wonder so in 86 we have a lesbian couple they're murdered outside the vehicle put back in the vehicle they're
01:07:28
found 87 we have a heterosexual couple that didn't well they're not a couple but they didn't didn't really know each
01:07:35
other but possibly Lover's Lane type thing they're murdered roughly about a mile and a half away from the vehicle
01:07:42
they're found now we have another heterosexual couple we don't even think that they were driving on the parkway
01:07:49
somehow this vehicle was found but we don't have any bodies found and not really a couple and the other thing to
01:07:56
back up the statement that the two might not have been on the Colonial Parkway they both of these individuals had been
01:08:03
rumored that at times in their life they had told family and friends in in recent
01:08:08
times to these murders or disappearance anyway that they wouldn't go to the parkway now keep in mind there there was
01:08:16
a murder that took place in 1986 a double homicide on there Sandy had told her sister and other family members she
01:08:23
didn't like to travel on the parkway would never drive on the parkway it seems like a strange place for them to
01:08:29
go willingly you know what I mean even if they were going to park and hang out for a little bit the other issue here is
01:08:35
that we have two individuals because this one feels a little different but it's like we have two individuals that
01:08:41
are just got out of relationships right so Sandy's boyfriend Sandy's ex-boyfriend might not know that she's
01:08:47
having a not a horrible time she's just she misses him right so they go to this party for all
01:08:55
we know that their murder has nothing to do with the Parkway and whoever killed them
01:09:01
says well if I put the truck out there they'll start trying to connect that to these other double homicides
01:09:10
well the interesting thing here Captain and the sad thing here the two of them to this very day have never been found
01:09:20
foreign make sure you check out True Crime garage.com go to the store Page where
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you can now order your pre-sale for horse people shirts and the be good be kind and don't Litter shirts and on that
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note until tomorrow be good be kind and don't litter [Music] thank you [Music]