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subject to credit approval C store or ashley.com for [Music] details [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever
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you are whatever you are doing thanks for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man who's looking
00:01:52
forward to Turkey and sweet potato pie remember Sammy Davis Jr only had one eye here's the captain it's going to be seen
00:01:59
and it's good to see you and yes I say that to my family at Thanksgiving thanks for listening and thanks for telling a
00:02:07
[Music] friend well when life gives you lemons you make lemon shandy that's what the
00:02:17
captain says and that's what the good folks over at Susana Brewing Company say as well today we are drinking Shady spot
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lemon shandy this is basically beer and lemonade mingling together in a taste bud tingling Harmony Shady spot is a
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world beer cup Gold Award winner garage grade four and a qu bottle caps out of five and we have some thanks and praise
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to hand out to our good friends first up a big cheers to Paul and Peoria Arizona
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and a big we like your jip from Danielle and Nappa next we have Lisa and Chad from Toronto that say go Bucks Michigan
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mentioned went to truecrime garage.com and contributed to this week's beer fund and for that well we are thankful and
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Record and that is enough of the business all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's
00:03:44
talk some true [Music] [Applause] [Music] crime John Douglas started his career with the
00:04:02
FBI in 1970 in the field he served as a hostage negotiator he transferred to the
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FBI's Behavioral Science unit or BSU for short in 1977 where he taught hostage negotiation and applied criminal
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psychology at the FBI Academy in Quantico Douglas later went on to create and manage the FBI's criminal profiling
00:04:26
program while traveling around the country providing instruction to law enforcement agencies Douglas began
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interviewing serial killers and other violent sex offenders at various prisons he interviewed some of the most notable
00:04:40
violent criminals as part of the study including David burwitz Ted Bundy John Wayne gasy Charles Manson and Edmund
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keer he used the information gathered from these interviews he examined crime scenes and created profiles of the
00:04:56
perpetrators describing their habits and attempting to predict their next move in
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cases where his work helped to capture the criminals he built strategies for interrogating and Prosecuting them as
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well Douglas first made a public name for himself with the involvement in the Atlanta child murders Douglas first made
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a public name for himself with his involvement in the Atlanta child murders case back in 1977 to 1981 he is the
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author of two of the garage's favorite true crime books mind Hunter and the cases that haunt us and he's joining us
00:05:29
here in the the garage today via telephone and Mr Douglas it is an honor to have you joining us once again well
00:05:36
thank you first off Mr Douglas everybody wants to know will there be season 3 of
00:05:42
M Hunter you certainly have the inside track what can you tell us will it happen and when I tell you the uh now
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it's like two months ago I got a call from Hol malleny who plays Bill tench character he stayed with me uh uh when
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he was developing his part part in the show and but he he sounded kind of grim and and was that uh all the actors want
00:06:05
to return but it was a question with uh David Fincher the director he spent so much time so much time filming in
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Pittsburgh he for each each season he spent about seven months there and he's such a perfectionist that the actors are
00:06:22
working almost the entire year on the you know on each uh on each series what there were saying that he that he's uh
00:06:31
you know exhausted I just don't personally understand it neither the some of the actors uh why don't you get
00:06:37
Ed some other directors uh some there there were other directors involved in in season 1 and season two of the 19
00:06:46
total epodes in two seasons Fincher did did seven of them personally did seven but when he did the series House of
00:06:54
Cards he started it but then other other directors took over over for the uh for
00:07:00
the show so I don't I mean it just everyone's you know is hoping you got tremendous ratings the
00:07:09
reviews were were all you know all good but I I mean it doesn't uh for now it's not he takes you if you can recall
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season 2 the first episode I just give you an idea there was a barbecue scene with Bill tench and he's meeting his
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neighbors who are finding out for the first time kind of what he does with the profiling and at quanico and all that he
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started asking questions that one scene uh was repeated seven nearly 75 times 75
00:07:40
times before uh Fincher approved it how he wanted that scene uh to go I uh and it's and because I me that he's made
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he's made the Netflix a lot of money you know it was if it was anyone else they say they would say okay it's fine we'll
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get another director but no they they're not doing it but I I just in the back of my mind I just think they will
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some point you know I may I may be dead and buried but some point I hope they'll
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bring it back there's so much more to tell I mean even season two the Atlanta child killings uh I mean that and and
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and you're you know you're uh the people listening to your show have to realize that's based on the book but it's not
00:08:22
the book uh the like the Atlanta case did not go down like that in fact in reality I saw it went down and the real
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way went down a lot more dramatic and my role in that case as far as coaching the
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the prosecution uh on how to to interrogate him when he would take the stand uh my attitude with toward the the
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uh the the prosecutors and experts that the FBI and the state brought in there and how how uh they they were going to
00:08:52
throw my ass out of there they did because I was just so critical of them uh on how they testified they were so
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technical no one could even understand what they were were saying I mean I couldn't understand what they were
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saying uh and the defense experts that they brought in talk they may have been saying stuff that's not correct uh their
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analysis but it was it was clear it was something that the jurors could follow and they were nodding their heads like
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in agreement with with the with their experts so um there's so much you so they they didn't finish that case I
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always think of season 3 they got that case I mean they got they have I think there so many different cases the Ted
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bunde case they could do Robert Hansen up in Alaska who hunted women down like wild animals which set them loose in the
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wilderness and uh and you have that case the you have Buffalo 22 Caliber Killer I
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mean just there the Tylenol case then cases of small no one really the public doesn't even know about but just very
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very interesting inter in interesting uh you know cases and they it may not follow the book they're kind of
00:10:04
interpreting it the way they want to but but it's uh it's it's better than some of the other shows that uh uh that that
00:10:12
I've seen even like with Criminal Minds it was very successful show but but Behavioral Science unit we don't when
00:10:18
you you're in that unit you don't go you're not out making arrests you're not taking cases away from police you're not
00:10:24
kicking down doors you know it's cerebral When You Reach when you reach the uh the unit and you're a coach
00:10:30
you're you're coaching uh uh FBI you're coaching local law enforcement on on uh on on how to to investigate or or you
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know or lead them you know in the best direction for say an un Unknown Subject uh case so
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uh what they portrayed in mind Hunter series was good yeah hopefully it's a five it was a fiveyear Arc to the show
00:10:57
it's supposed to be on for 5 years uh and uh then there's plenty of cases to fill up those 5 years so we will see
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yes when asked to give a brief description about M Hunter when I recommend the show to friends and family
00:11:12
I always say it's the more adult more intelligent real life version of Criminal Minds yeah I mean it's just uh
00:11:21
it's such interesting in that kind that kind of show today and these crime uh conferences around the country that it's
00:11:28
just it's a amazing when I haven't done any public speaking because of the co virus but when I been going out
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conferences 80 90% of the audience are women uh too that are really really into the this well they
00:11:41
want to know because they too they're the victims of the of the kind of violent crimes that I and my colleagues
00:11:46
have worked over the years and they're interested in better understand the personality what creates these people
00:11:53
what makes these people you know uh different than we are what what what was their backgrounds was it predictable
00:12:01
that they would commit uh you know these types of uh types of crimes and uh and now with all these dating services you
00:12:10
know meeting people you know at locations you don't know you know just because someone puts a nice picture up
00:12:16
and gives you this background bio this little bio doesn't mean that's who the person really is uh my mother when when
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my since passed away she used to tell my sister when you meet you meet a man or boy this was years ago when you me a boy
00:12:32
ask him what his relationship is with his mother and my mother was was right on the money there because of the people
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who I've interviewed some of the most violent offenders there was always an issue on the mother's side where they
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were there was this abuse or neglect of some of some type uh uh going on with them uh and uh it's they love their
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mother and same time they hated their mother when I interviewed Gary heynck from Philadelphia who kept women in the
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pit like in the movie s of the Lambs I interviewed him lesie stall of 60 minutes just got to 60 minutes that's
00:13:05
how long ago it was in 1991 and followed me into Pittsburgh to interview or I interview Gary heidnik and when I got
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around to talking about his mother he just went absolutely nuts you know and and crying and and uh you know and he he
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he loved her and hated her all at the same time and she was very very abusive you know toward him and this is not to
00:13:26
say that everyone is good is abused turn out to be a violent you know anything but I'm just saying of the people who
00:13:32
I've interviewed uh rarely I I I can't think of one that you could say came from some loving nurturing kind of
00:13:39
background they all had some type of uh dysfunction you know in their lives let's talk about the still unsolved
00:13:47
terrorizing murders and threats from the unidentified serial killer who called himself the Zodiac you reviewed and
00:13:54
profiled the Zodiac case years after the fact and still were able to offer up some very fascinating and intriguing
00:14:02
analysis about the crimes and the person who committed them yeah the uh with well
00:14:09
with the Zodiac we never the unit really never got involved with the uh the analysis of that case we've had a lot of
00:14:17
people come forward over the years there's been different suspects you know uh you know developed um when that case
00:14:23
was going on we really didn't even have a behavioral science unit when we we finally got the case
00:14:29
uh it was it was when so-called zodiac was writing a communication wrote a communication to the detective who was
00:14:37
assigned to the case he had a private office a private line hotline and uh so we got we were going to do an analysis
00:14:46
of the communication we call psycholinguistic analysis all it is is just you're doing a profile of the
00:14:52
author of the communication um the the uh police immediately called us up and said
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stopped forget about it you know why why we figured out who wrote the uh communication who was it the detective
00:15:06
why the detective wrote the communication himself to he's trying to because he had not had any good leads no
00:15:14
leads everything just died it was nothing going on and to perpetuate the case he wrote this so-called letter from
00:15:21
the uh you know the the uh the Zodiac so uh but as far as I mean it's it's a case
00:15:29
if it was a case today I think we'd be successful uh when you get a case like that uh and and how I was evolving in
00:15:39
when I was the unit Chief in the bureau and training others it's I was kind of deemphasizing the profile because
00:15:46
because the whole the idea of a profile is you're trying to generate leads you're trying to try to uh Peak the mind
00:15:54
of interest of people who may know uh some of the uh the Char characteristics of that are fitting this charact uh uh
00:16:03
the person responsible for the crime so I began to focus in more on on proactive
00:16:08
techniques and uh to to to maybe get the subject uh to inject himself in the investigation or get the subject to to
00:16:19
go to a particular location uh because we we may have uh planted something there we may have had a memorial service
00:16:28
there uh and uh just give you an example I was s i i was sent to go before the uh uh Internal
00:16:38
Affairs they call opr offic of professional responsibility and and which is not good when you go before
00:16:44
Internal Affairs and and so I went I went before a whole group and they said John you're not lying are you to uh to
00:16:52
the media through the media to the public you're not lying are you I said I so what do you mean you you telling the
00:16:59
truth I said well I don't know I said let me give you an example I said this there's a case in and I told him there's
00:17:06
a case in San Diego that uh a woman car was uh broken down on off the side of the road she deter she she ran
00:17:14
out of uh gasoline um no one knows where she is for a day or two then they find her up
00:17:22
in outside of San Diego in some Foothills and she has a a dog collar around her neck she's been sexually
00:17:29
assaulted and she's been GED uh I worked with the police I'm telling the internal
00:17:34
Affair is this I worked with the police we came out with a series of articles I said because it was my opinion that that
00:17:43
whoever killed her was the guy who picked her up to take her maybe to a gas station gas station so she thought and
00:17:49
so we we want to put a series of communications out looking for lead value did anyone see anything did anyone
00:17:57
see anything on any vehicle stop any description of a vehicle or a car we put that out we flood the Airways and and we
00:18:04
waited a couple days and now we come out with another another we we're getting very good uh leads thanking the public
00:18:10
we are now getting a description of not only the vehicle but the individual who uh who stopped alongside of the victim's
00:18:17
car um the purpose of that was to get the subject to inject himself into the investigation to uh to to come up with a
00:18:26
legitimate reason why he may have been outed there and sure enough the guy injects himself into the investigation
00:18:33
that that just so you know that I was there I I offered her a ride she said she ran out of gas but she she said no
00:18:40
so I went on my on my Merry way so I told Internal Affairs that was that was the guy we arrested him the police
00:18:48
arrested him now if you're telling me you're telling me the My Lying to the press or whatever well it's not exactly
00:18:56
the truth it's not the truth but we caught this so they the police caught it by using this technique so what what and
00:19:04
so they look at me and they uh they said well let's I I'll just tell you something I said we understand what
00:19:10
you're saying but if if it ever gets out or anything or you you screw up man we're going to have your head we're
00:19:17
going to we're going to have your head you I'll be working cattle rustling cases in but Montana or some place if if
00:19:23
not fired from The Bureau so I started really working on on proactive kinds of things and interview interview uh
00:19:34
techniques and and suggestions because because sometimes you may do a profile and it doesn't fit every characteristic
00:19:40
so someone will say well this that profile they they they said he would have a uh a a college education or and
00:19:50
and this guy only he's a high school high school education or well we may miss the age which is difficult age is
00:19:58
difficult because uh there chronological age and behavioral age and uh and you may miss may miss that we missed the
00:20:06
Arthur shawcross case up in Rochester New York we missed it by about 15 years and the reason we missed it was because
00:20:14
he was incarcerated for those 15 years for a double homicide where he killed two children and then he gets out of
00:20:20
prison it's unbelievable he let him out of prison have to serve him 15 years he goes up to Rochester and he starts
00:20:26
killing prostitutes up in Rochester we got everything right uh missed the age but C but uh we staked out we told them
00:20:35
to stake out if you find a body don't recover it right away but stake it out and so they so the cops they they get a
00:20:44
lead there's a body below a bridge an overpass below a bridge in the country and and uh the there's a victim down
00:20:51
there and it's frozen over with ice and uh they stake it out and guess what police or surveillant here comes a guy
00:21:01
just sits on on the edge of the the bridge eating having a drink and the victim is right uh below him and that
00:21:10
was Arthur shawcross serial killer in Rochester New York so so it's it's it's I like the idea of developing you know
00:21:20
uh using imagination creativity to to catch these guys and and kind of deemphasize like I said deemphasize the
00:21:28
uh the profile sometimes you could be right on the money some cases you forget you can't you can't do it because too
00:21:34
many there may be too many types of people could perpetrate this kind of uh type of crime uh and uh rape cases we
00:21:42
have surviving victims we could be pretty good uh once if we do the right kind of interview or or we coach the we
00:21:50
coach the police to determine what was the verbal assault was what the sexual assault was and what the physical
00:21:56
assault was verbal sexual physical and what was it like throughout the first counter with the victim during this
00:22:04
sexual assault and afterwards verbal sexual physical and if we have that information we do a good interview we
00:22:12
that kind of case we can do a very good profile and come up with because we have
00:22:16
a rape typ we have like there about five or six rape typologies based upon if we
00:22:21
have that kind of information where we can determine pretty good who the offender is in a similar fashion in
00:22:28
regards to the Zodiac attack at Lake beresa this is the murder of Cecilia Shepard and the attempted murder of
00:22:36
Brian Hartnell during the course of tying up the victims the Zodiac Killer wearing a black executioners type Hood
00:22:44
with clip-on sunglasses over the eyeholes disguise he claimed to be an escaped convict from the Montana State Prison in
00:22:54
Deer Lodge Montana where he had killed a guard and stole a car to make a getaway
00:23:00
now he's telling the young couple he just needed their vehicle and money to drive and escape to Mexico you had said
00:23:09
you would have used that information to try to draw the killer out to present himself to law enforcement and come
00:23:16
forward what would have been your strategy to do so yeah it would have have just been to you know to release I
00:23:26
I just believe in and working with the media investigative reporters with the media releasing information and not
00:23:33
sitting on you can sit on information for a period of a couple of you know maybe couple of days or so but at some
00:23:38
point you have to re you know release the uh you know release the information now whether or not that information was
00:23:45
true or not we we you know we wouldn't uh you know we wouldn't have you know have uh known that
00:23:54
uh again it would I'd have to it's been so long since I looked at that you that case but let me sh tell you something
00:24:00
else was similar uh the what he did what his technique was he was trying to diffuse the situation he was trying to
00:24:09
calm calm the victims down don't worry all I want is your vehicle same thing I interviewed Dennis Raider the BTK
00:24:15
Strangler in a case that I did in the 70s and 80s and and never it never analysis never led to his arrest his
00:24:24
stupidity led to his arrest but he used that same technique with the Otero family when he
00:24:30
killed the otos and and the uh the children the mother and father that please all I want you know I just want
00:24:37
your car you know and and your money I'm not going to do anything to you and and
00:24:41
and so that they allowed it was a very good modus operandi it allowed him to diffuse the
00:24:49
situation and uh uh and gain control of them and and uh you know and tie them up
00:24:56
uh it's going back to the Zodiac it's kind of It kind of shows you though that's pretty sophisticated it's a
00:25:04
pretty good Mo uh you know to use and it almost sounds like uh it's been so long it
00:25:12
almost sounds like a law enforcement technique Dennis Raider uh was the pseudo law enforcement you know he was a
00:25:18
compliance officer in town he was studying Criminal Justice at Witchita State uh so uh a lot of these serial
00:25:25
killer types do have law enforce backgrounds look at the Golden Gate killer you know out there and but even
00:25:33
others who or you ask them what uh what would be your favorite uh profession be generally law enforcement is what they
00:25:41
pick and some of them act even work as security guards so but I sometimes it's disturbing to uh to see how I can't
00:25:53
think of the name you probably uh know this Nick the the case in Indiana are the two little girls that were on that
00:25:59
bridge yes the murders of Abigail Williams in Liberty German from Deli Indiana I did brief interview on I think
00:26:09
it was a good morning America and they I had that other book out killerr and they
00:26:14
threw out that case and and they never I mean you can sit on that information but
00:26:20
when they sit on had the the audio tapes the audio tapes and uh you know was like
00:26:26
I think if I recall like come with me follow me or something like come with me yes the perpetrator said guys down the
00:26:32
hill yeah and it s authoritarian man I mean you know and they sat on that God wasn't it like two years or so it was it
00:26:42
was ridiculous you don't you don't sit on on something like uh you know like that uh you know for that period of time
00:26:50
that case to me that was a solvable kind of case that is not a it's not a case where some Stranger Comes roaming into a
00:27:00
a community and just by the fluke you know and this I think it was like a winter day he he's comes across this
00:27:06
railroad Trestle and he confronts these girl it's like he has there's this knowledge a knowledge of the area that's
00:27:14
his comfort zone that area there whatever that area is like I don't I just don't know I know was just rural I
00:27:21
don't know we don't know how they were killed if you knew how they were killed even uh like I said you can sit on a for
00:27:27
a while but or but I think it would have been very Sol if I would have known like
00:27:33
were they sexually assaulted yes or no were they both sexually assaulted were they were they redressed were they
00:27:40
unclosed were they depose the bodies uh did he try to secrete the bodies hide the bodies from uh from from open view
00:27:49
are they missing anything any jewelry any clothing or anything like that uh method of death uh who can we can we
00:27:56
determine who was killed first first uh it's a solvable it's really a solvable case but not not a year later two years
00:28:06
you know two years later I mean unless they they look out and get DNA but it's uh yeah I just upsets me sometimes when
00:28:17
I I see why didn't they release this information I mean I did the same thing with the bureau too um with our own our
00:28:23
own cases I you got sit on them for a while but bits and pieces of information you can certainly let out to the
00:28:29
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brand [Applause] [Music] Mr Douglas you referenced BTK Dennis Raider and I was talking about the
00:31:09
Zodiac attack at Lake beresa do you think that there's a high probability a good chance that Dennis Raider learned
00:31:17
that technique by reading about the Zodiac Killer yes yeah because and like I said he was in he uh was in criminal
00:31:26
justice in fact he initial analysis we did and was we did 1 in 79 and we were just getting going really but then we
00:31:33
did a really good one in 84 with a group of us and uh we we wanted to focus we told the focus that over if you have a
00:31:42
criminal justice University nearby and sure enough it was witchar in R respect he went to witch witchar um you know you
00:31:50
know and very I mean they will they follow they'll read books and things like that people will always ask Nick
00:31:59
too a question like well can they learn from from your books I mean it becomes like a manual and and uh not not really
00:32:08
because what because you should be able to read you can see when things are done that the
00:32:15
patterns just don't don't always fit there that the the killer may do something to the victim that gives
00:32:21
himself away it may be the way the body is disposed of uh say a parent killing their child and uh you know and maybe
00:32:31
read a book you know you know to okay what make sure you don't uh uh you know let somebody else find the victim don't
00:32:39
be the one to find the victim some read some case like that uh but in a case like that when we find say when we found
00:32:47
the victim we see that things were done to the victim that uh the victim was buried I'm thinking of a case as I'm
00:32:52
telling you this is buried in the back of a house and the uh the there's plastic bag over the face and uh part of
00:33:02
the body uh to protect it from really from uh the from the elements protected from insects and uh dirt uh it's
00:33:11
something that uh you know that someone close to the victim would have done so you we're not looking for a stranger a
00:33:18
stranger murder so so you should be able to you should be able to pick up if someone uh is following a uh a case we
00:33:29
had we had a case of a of a this was years ago was Roy Hazelwood who sents passed away it was real good he did a
00:33:37
lot in the area of rape and the woman uh got would get these OBS scene calls and
00:33:43
she got a whistle and she blew the whistle into the phone and uh she would be murdered and a whistle would be found
00:33:53
you know be thrown on her body also a magazine a magazine that this guy just so happened to have the killer had of a
00:34:01
women using that technique on an obscene telephone call and these these were these old True Detective magazines we
00:34:08
had used to have years years ago so so uh he got back you know he got he got back to her uh in an indirect uh in not
00:34:18
indirect a very direct way from a a magazine uh and retaliated but we ended up you know getting getting him as you
00:34:26
know as well that guy you referenced that a criminal could read and could study crimes and possibly read your
00:34:35
books to help them get away with murder and avoid being apprehended one thing that I found fascinating when reviewing
00:34:44
some old video footage was a gentleman that you met and spoke with Mark buers who at one time was considered a suspect
00:34:53
at least in the minds of the public in the West Memphis 3 case and I noticed in that video footage when he was being
00:35:01
interviewed at his apartment that there were several of your books on his shelves or his desk can you tell us why
00:35:09
you believe that Mark buers is not a good suspect in the west Memphis 3 case he had a book that I gave him a book
00:35:16
after I I determined he was not a suspect you know in the uh you know in the case uh Mark buers yeah he recently
00:35:24
he recently died when when he met made uh that series of uh shows what was the name of the the the first one the first
00:35:32
one uh the HBO documentary Paradise Lost the Child Murders At Robin Hood Hills he
00:35:39
was ped with alcohol and and uh prescription drugs he was he was scripted uh you know through you know
00:35:46
throughout that uh the the person who uh killed those children and uh uh the the
00:35:56
method of manner of of disposal told me it was not uh it was not Mark buers uh uh he did not have a
00:36:05
history really any kind of a major kind of history of assault of type of Behavior Uh it was the other stepfather
00:36:14
who was never interviewed by the police throughout the years um the that 50 analysis that I did uh for the team that
00:36:25
was working uh to the CH the the children uh it it it showed me and my goal was was was the
00:36:34
could they was it a teenage these three teenagers involved no the way the children w't disposed of they were uh
00:36:42
the children didn't have their clothes on which would be a way of controlling the kids if they if they're stripped
00:36:46
down or they could have been playing out there and they could have been naked to
00:36:49
begin with when someone approached them but the way they were disposed of and the person uh stuck a stick in the
00:36:56
clothes CL and and and poked it down under the water uh that is pretty fairly criminally uh you know sophisticated uh
00:37:05
the the children died of combination of drowning and blun force uh trauma uh there were people early on the
00:37:13
investigation said there were teeth marks there were human teeth marks on the body it turned out it was animal
00:37:20
predation uh you know you you probably know that uh you know now but getting back to buyer I spent hours and hour I
00:37:28
me I spent uh uh with with all the victims and my goal after I determine who was
00:37:36
who was not responsible that this is an unsolved case they they meaning the investigative team Peter Jackson the
00:37:46
director who was funding this and these experts here was to talk to the parents and I got to talk to all the parents
00:37:53
except the more victim uh they had sensed the divorced and uh uh I got the mother on the phone and and uh just
00:38:02
could not uh even even have opportunity to speak with her I did get to speak to the other victims uh the other victims
00:38:09
families and first they wanted to throw me out of their homes but once I sat and
00:38:14
explained to them how different things how what happened to their children uh that that this was not a youthful type
00:38:22
of a crime at all uh and it was then next again the the person who they came up with as a suspect who's who was the
00:38:31
uh the other father The Stepfather who was never interviewed you remember the name Nick Terry Hobbs yeah Terry Hobbs
00:38:37
uh I got to interview I did interview uh him he did certainly have the history history of of uh of of violence uh they
00:38:48
found a hair which is interesting but it was uh uh human hair on a one of the uh
00:38:57
in a ligature of the shoelaces uh that was used to tie one of the victims hair uh it was mitochondrial DNA was found on
00:39:07
hair and also on a branch hair that was mitochondrial linked to you know linked back uh to him but the case the case
00:39:16
isn't going anywhere because the if they're not if they're not working the investigation uh at all they had me
00:39:23
speak to the district attorney uh down there and and U after uh we came out with uh you know our show Peter Jackson
00:39:35
produced and um it was called west of Memphis uh and uh the the father uh uh I'm trying to think let the I'm
00:39:48
trying to think of the uh that's the name of the show that we we did did but anyway had me talk to
00:39:56
yeah I can't but doesn't matter but I spoke I did speak to to the district attorney and the district attorney um he
00:40:03
saw the show he's kind of mythed uh about our our take on it and he says and he said I don't he told me I don't know
00:40:11
I I don't know if they uh did it or not and I said I do know they didn't do it they didn't do it I explained to him the
00:40:19
crime scene and and uh the type of person that would have perpetrated this these crimes is not youthful type of an
00:40:25
offender and he tells me though he says well the timing isn't very good the timing and I didn't know what he meant I
00:40:30
thought maybe timing because he just released them from prison but it turned out 30 days later I find out the timing
00:40:37
isn't any good because he's running for political office down there and that's why the timing wasn't any good but
00:40:42
knowing to this day I mean they didn't bring in like the arkans Arkansas State Police in they're very good police
00:40:48
agency uh the bureau really never got involved you know in the investigation uh you know either uh they were held
00:40:55
bent on making this a a satanic type of murder that was a big thing in that period of time you had people like
00:41:03
haraldo Rivera on television saying that there's 50,000 children are being abducted yearly and it's shown a satanic
00:41:09
connection even Oprah Winfrey had a special on her show cops were being trained look for certain graffiti
00:41:15
indicating Satanism and and uh yeah and uh so they were hellbent on making out a
00:41:21
satanic crime and you have Daman Eckles and wearing black and and uh they had blinders on and so they they made a case
00:41:29
using uh initially Jesse Miss Kelly was So-Cal so-called confession uh that he you know that he gave but it's a shame
00:41:37
it was a shame uh of the wrongful conviction how the lives you were pretty much pretty much destroyed and uh and so
00:41:48
one book I did I did a book uh law and disorder that includes that case includes the uh John Benny Ramsey case
00:41:56
include the Amanda Knox case all cases I was involved with uh I did that couple of two years three years ago
00:42:04
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