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[Music] [Applause] [Music] welcome to true crab garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks for
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thanks for telling a friend this week we are featureing tangerine wheat by the good folks at Lost Coast brewing garage
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beers yes it is all right everybody gather round grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime
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[Music] [Applause] in recent years over 450,000 children were reported missing in the United
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States each year children taken by strangers with slight acquaintances represent only one hundredth of one
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percent of all missing children far more common are children who have run away gotten lost or injured have been taken
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by a family member usually in a custody dispute where they simply aren't where they're expected to be because of a
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miscommunication but still a very small percent of children reported missing remain gone professionals who deal with
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missing children cases are primarily police officers and local detectives trained to locate young people and bring
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them back our case this week is that of Daniel David Howe enstein or Danny Danny
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was born October 3rd 1986 on December 1st 1992 Danny living with his mother in Paradise Pines
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California is reported missing Danny was just six years old his missing flyer describes Danny as Caucasian 3 foot 8
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inches tall 41 pounds with a slender bill he has blue eyes and light brown hair at the time of his disappearance
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Danny was sporting a buzz haircut Danny was last seen playing with the dog near his home in the afternoon hours of
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December 1st his mother Jackie was inside preparing a meal for the boy when she went to call
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him in he was nowhere to be found Jackie search for the boy but to no avail after the boy was only gone for a short
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period of time Jackie called the police and the search for Danny began but hours
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turned into days and then weeks and months and still no one knew where the little boy was the trail was going cold
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[Music] there was no evidence and little in the way of leads detectives burned Kelch
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worked the case as good as any seasoned detective could he meticulously logged and organized every bit of information
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collected from the search as well as things brought to light by interviews and tips coming into the department but
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this was truly a mystery and the FBI offered their assistance and the ongoing investigation in the public eye there
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are some common misconceptions about when the FBI can get involved in a missing child case either there has to
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be evidence that a victim was taken across state lines or that a ransom demand has been made listeners of this
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show know that that is not the case as the Bureau often offers their investigative resources and technical
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assets to work hand-in-hand with state and local law enforcement agencies on cases involving the mysterious
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disappearance of a child in 1993 FBI special agent Jeffrey reineck was paired with detective Kelch his role was to
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help investigate the disappearance recover the child and apprehend the person or persons responsible
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this is the case of the missing boy Danny Hohenstein [Music] over the years captain we have had
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several guests join us in the garage we have had podcasters prosecutors private investigators this week we have a very
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special guest retired special agent from the FBI Jeffrey rynek he has been involved in many cases of missing
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children and many cases of crimes committed against children and we asked him to join us in the garage this week
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to discuss the missing persons case of Danny Hohenstein who went missing in 1992 well Nick and Jeff before we dive
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into the case Jeff could you tell our listeners why you got involved in the FBI that's a great question and I think
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about it an awful lot I was born with physical birth defects that I had a club left foot and the doctors also
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determined that I had cerebral palsy and for my first nine years of life I was the kid that was picked on and beaten up
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separated from the other kids I couldn't walk right and so my life I wouldn't consider it to be a lot of fun at the
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same time my parents were taking me to all these doctors and I originally thought they
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were doing this because they wanted me to be right and I think they did but I've learned in later life in a big part
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because of my relationship with my wife Lori that I think my parents are somewhat embarrassed or offset because I
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looked so different I had a clubfoot I walked funny and I think it troubled them as much as it was an inconvenience
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to me at nine years of age I had experimental surgery that worked and caused me to work walk fairly normally
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and as I continued growing and developing after that surgery I was able to run and do things and I was able to
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do a lot of I was able to do everything normally I thought it was something that
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was behind the leftover effect on me was that I was very angry because my first 10 years of
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being beaten up and picked on and so I was so much foul told somewhat violent it didn't take much to get me to go over
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the edge I went through life my parents expecting me to go to college and we decided that I would go to law school I
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went to Cheltenham high school graduated then I went to Albright College in Redding Pennsylvania graduated there and
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then realized that I didn't have enough money to go to law school so I ended up I just you know I was floating around I
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always wanted to be an FBI agent because my dad had been an undertaker and during one of the funerals there was
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this high-ranking organized crime guy and I was fascinated by these guys that were walking around taking license
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plates and all that and at that early age my dream was to be an FBI agent which I never really thought was
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possible for me after I was kind of without direction after I graduated college I needed to find something so I
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started applying to all these law enforcement jobs including DEA Secret Service and then I applied to the FBI
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and they responded to me and made me aware of a position where I would be what's called the clerk I went down for
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my interview and they said that if I did three years as a clerk then I'd be eligible to apply for agents class and
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for me that was totally unexpected and that gave me direction so I went to work for the FBI as a clerk I had an
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advantage because I had a college degree and you had to have a college degree to
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be an FBI agent so I went to work doing menial things I used to make the clerk badges and then I did soap screaming in
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the exhibit section of the FBI had six months after I got there the FBI stopped that program with the clerk
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and did not grandfather anybody and I was once again in a dead-end position so your chances of getting into the FBI
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were made possible through this program they cancelled the program now what are you gonna do I decided I went back to
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school at night full time to gain the equivalent of an accounting degree because that would enable me to apply to
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the FBI as an agent as an accountant and for the next 52 weeks that's what I did
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I also had started running because it made me feel like I could run normally I enjoyed it I could think and it made me
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feel good so I kept running and so I had this life of working as a clerk at the FBI and running every night and going
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through to get my under graduate equivalent degree of accounting and I completed it and sure enough I was able
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to get into the FBI my new agents class was June 26th of 1978 and that's how I started that's pretty cool not quitting
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the Clerc thing so you're still working for the FBI but you're running every night you're going to school you're
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gonna find a way to make this dream a reality and at some point Jeff you get involved
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in a unit that specializes investigating crimes involving children can you take us through that process sure Nick the
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the work I did with crimes against children didn't start until I had about 15 years in or 12 years my first office
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was Chicago and in Chicago I worked violent crime and accounting and I was put on a what they call it
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title 3 which is telephone surveillance on a case everybody has seen the movie Casino and I was one of the FBI agents
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listening to the earphones on that on the telephone surveillance with new agents
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we were pretty much worthless so they would assign his stuff like that and that would help us get acclimated to the
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job a short time after my dad was diagnosed with lung cancer in Philadelphia and I chose to go back to
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the New York office to be with him during his final years of life and that's where I met my wife Laurie we
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ended up starting our own family and I know this sounds like a long lead-in but I think you'll understand in a short
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while Laurie and I we started having a family and our first son Joe was born and when he was three and a half years
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old we had our second son Jordan for the week before Jordan was born Joe looked like he was having a really bad cold and
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when we took Jordan for his well-baby visit we asked the doctor to look at Joe and Laurie and I'll never forget that
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the doctor came in with this ashen sullen look on his face and he told us that Joe had a plus for protein spill in
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his urine and that that was very serious and he made it clear to us that this was
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going to be a very difficult thing for us the next few years we spent dealing with Joe who was diagnosed with
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pediatric nephrotic syndrome and this is where this is kind of the formative time
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for both Lori and I because dealing with our son and the prospect that he might not survive and the hardship of dealing
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with the symptoms Lori had more emotional strength than I did she dealt with a lot better than I did shortly
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after we arrived in Sacramento there was an abduction of a 7 month old baby named
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Frankie Proctor and I was assigned to it and it was like an out-of-body experience for him it was nothing like I
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had ever experienced before in the terms of the drive the passion and then I got
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I worked with a detective at Sacramento Police Department and Greg Stewart whoo great detective and and I was able
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to partner up with him and so I learned a lot from working with him and I also experienced something was very unique in
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that I didn't want to go home I just kept going and four days later Greg and I and a few tactical guys broke into an
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apartment and we rescued little Frankie Proctor the FBI being the bureaucracy it
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is like every other bureaucracy they started assigning me all of these cases and that's how my work in the crimes
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against children began Jeff don't worry about the long answers we hear we appreciate the details we're just lucky
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that you're talking to the two slobs in the crowd well let's dive into this week's case because at some point you
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were asked to take a look into a missing persons case and this is six year old Daniel David Hohenstein better known as
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Danny and by the time you got involved this was considered a cold case yeah no this is thank you for asking that during
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this time it was in the early 1990s the FBI had a new director his name was Louis Freeh Louis Freeh was very strong
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in his belief that the resources of the FBI could help in investigating missing and abducted children and as a result of
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that every field office in the FBI was ordered to go through their closed cases and any closed case that had a child
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that was not recovered we were supposed to review it and look to see if there was anything that we could use to try
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and and bring it back to try and find the child that's a pretty awesome initiative by the FBI I reviewed the
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case on Danny Hornstein who had disappeared in November the end of November of nineteen I think it was 1991
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or two I you know it's been so long now my notes say that Danny disappeared December 1st 1992
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okay December 1st that that's right and I looked at that case now that now we're
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in the end of of 1993 you were a year later and in my review of the case Danny had disappeared there was no sign of him
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anywhere it was if he simply vaporized and ceased to exist and and this really bothered me because that doesn't happen
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and as I read the file I saw that the Butte County Sheriff had a very very good search-and-rescue
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team and the detective that was working at his name was Vern couch and I could tell that Vern had a problem with Danny
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disappearing as well the search-and-rescue folks and the managers believed that Danny had
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wandered into a very rugged Canyon near his home and he met his end either being
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lost in the canyon or being attacked by a predatory animal in the woods as I looked through search-and-rescue reports
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there was no evidence of him any evidence of him at all ever being into the canyon there was nothing and it was
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just too much for me that a child could disappear in a period of 20 minutes and not exist and I could tell that the
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detective Vern felt that way my supervisor was a guy named Don Pierce and Don just an amazing person he had
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this talent where he could recognize what people were good at everybody on our squad was engaged things they were
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excelling at and that's because Don could recognize these things he was really was intuitive I told Don I didn't
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think that just bothered me that Danny had disappeared and nothing existed so he arranged for Vern couch and Vern
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supervisor to come down and Verne supervisors name was Perry Rena foo later became the Butte County
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Sheriff they came down to the FBI office and we sat there reviewing the case I said at the risk of looking like an
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idiot I said you know something's wrong because a boy like this doesn't just disappear to the point where search and
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rescue can't find any evidence of him ever existing and Vern agreed with me and that's the way he had felt so Don
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Pierce my supervisor and Perry Ren affirmed supervisor gave us permission to reopen this case and start looking at
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it and that became this unbelievable marathon for Vern and I looking to find out what happened to Danny in a way when
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you review these files and you're thinking about these things you're almost transported back in time
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and you realize that the better the investigators documented what they had done the further back you can go and
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with the intensity of actually feeling like you're there that was a real lesson to me and my paperwork was usually not
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very good but because of that and from learning from Vern I started trying to do much paper in my own paperwork
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because I knew that it could mean the difference between having hope or losing hope in a case like this Jeff tell us a
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little bit about Danny's home life Danny lived in a small town named Miguel iya makalya is a very rural area
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it's just east a north of a town called Paradise your listeners might be interested to know that paradise and
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Miguel you were two towns that were completely burned to the ground in the camp fire from last summer and so
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nothing exists there anymore but Danny grew up in migaila or he lived in Madera mughelli he didn't live there he didn't
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grow up there his mom was an alcoholic and so her life circulated around alcohol and because of that she wasn't
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the most responsible parent she could have been and Danny was frequently reported to be in the neighborhood
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unsupervised there was one incident that really got to me emotionally where a neighbor who was interviewed described
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that on a cold snowy morning Danny was at her door by her kitchen asking to be let in and he was in his pajamas he
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didn't have any outer garments on and she described how she brought him in and fed him breakfast and there were other
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incidences that were like that there was teachers in his kindergarten class reported that Danny would fall asleep
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early in the day and they determined that his mom was feeding him ice cream and he didn't have a very nutritional
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diet his teeth were deteriorated because again his diet was so bad so Danny was a
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child who was neglected that's pretty sad one of the reasons that Bernie and I would one of the things that aided us
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was because you know here Danny goes missing and because he's neglected in the first place
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no one really or they easily give up looking for him and so that that was eating at us and one of the things that
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I'm really proud of that was happening during this time is it Vern and I were developing a very close friendship with
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each other and Vern was a guy who didn't really have great feelings about the FBI
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so this partner ship who were developing was a lot of fun and it really took advantage of me in terms of I was a
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street guy and he I didn't know anything about the country so he he was on these
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crazy stories that I would believe that were not true just uh get me can you describe the man that they partnered you
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with for this case detective Vern couch Vern was about six foot five he was if you think of John Wayne in one
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of his westerns that's Verne Kelch he was massive he was his hands dwarf my hands he had a
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deep voice and he was a no-nonsense guy quite frankly when I started working whether Mazal intimidated because I
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wouldn't want to be on his bad side and as we got to be better friends it just till I felt a lot safer people
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people have the misconception that police or sheriffs in rural areas aren't that good Verne had kept this
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unbelievable documentation of the case he had volumes of loose-leaf binders that were organized in all different
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ways and you could give him a date and time and he'd be able to look back in his records and find out what happened
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cheers to you captain special agent rynek could you take us through the known events of the day of
00:31:01
December 1st 1992 yeah the day Danny goes missing yes and I'd like to tell you that this is when you talk about
00:31:10
working cold cases the events and the day that your victim is last seen they become imprinted in your mind and in
00:31:23
your heart and your soul because it's the starting point of where you begin and they end and you try very hard to
00:31:33
cause one to overlap with the other so you get some type of idea of what could have happened
00:31:41
and so in Danny's case that day was a cold rainy chilly day there was a house being built near where Danny lived and
00:31:55
because he was always out and about he would always hang over watching the house be built there was a dog in the
00:32:04
neighborhood that was always a Danny sighed and the dog's owner was in jail so the dog like Danny had no place to go
00:32:13
so the two of them found each other and hung out together and Danny hung around there for the day and about three
00:32:23
o'clock or so the workmen were getting ready to go home and the supervisor told Danny to go home and and he actually
00:32:35
told them you know you got to get a coat on a jacket so Danny went home and got a
00:32:42
coat his mother remembered him coming in and getting his jacket I'm running out again and the supervisor said that Danny
00:32:51
came back with his coat on and then these guys were packing up getting ready to go
00:32:57
a short time later Danny's mom went looking for him and couldn't find him and so this is what we know about
00:33:05
Danny's last day he was hanging out in the area where the house was being built he had a dog at his side he interacted
00:33:14
with the Carpenters that were building the house and so this is where you start and what happens is you not only try and
00:33:24
get an idea of the logistics and the goings and comings but you also get an idea of what Danny was like because
00:33:32
these guys are telling you what their impression is at the same time you're getting impressions of these guys and
00:33:38
that slowly gives you the ability to start building this mental picture of what that day was like now Danny's mom
00:33:47
was as we in alcoholic and there were many times reported when she would be asleep during
00:33:55
the day probably recovering from the previous night on one occasion before this she had actually misplaced Danny
00:34:03
she had left Danny with a friend and forgotten who she left him with and couldn't find him so of course she met
00:34:12
with a lot of negative criticism because you know she wasn't really being mindful
00:34:21
of her child but it was also important to consider that if she could have lost her child for three days that time how
00:34:29
do we know she didn't do something this time how do we know she wasn't pulling out of the garage and maybe hit him
00:34:36
while he was standing behind all these factors come into play as possibilities but in what really got
00:34:44
to Vernon I was that here you have the mom who had lost him for three days and she never called police and now Danny
00:34:52
was missing for 50 minutes and she called police so the question becomes why she's so diligent this time and this
00:35:01
is an example of where you start you have to find a reason there's something going on there and because her son was
00:35:10
missing she became very helpful and tried very hard to the best of her ability to help us find her son and what
00:35:19
we learned is that on that day Danny was supposed to go over that evening to be with his father and his
00:35:27
mother was going to have the evening to herself to go out and do what she did mindful of this she when she couldn't
00:35:38
find Danny she was concerned not because she couldn't find Danny but because she
00:35:45
was going to go out and she knew she couldn't go out and tell she had Danny accounted for over at his dad's and the
00:35:51
way the logistics worked out that day is that she was going to feed Danny before
00:35:56
she took him over to his dad so she cooked him a pot of macaroni cheese so she remembered Danny coming in
00:36:05
to get his jacket as she was starting the pot of macaroni cheese and then when she finished cooking it that's when she
00:36:13
started looking for him a time of approximately 20 minutes and couldn't find him so whatever happened to Danny
00:36:19
happened in that 20 minutes then she started looking for him and she spent another half hour looking for him and
00:36:27
then she called the police she called the Butte County Sheriff's Department and Verne responded with the department
00:36:34
and they began what they do so well which is search and rescue and looking for Danny and this is where we get to
00:36:41
the point where there's never any trace of him including his clothing his shoes his possessions anything that's ever
00:36:49
seen from him again the dog is located in the neighborhood running around by itself but Danny is going and this is
00:36:59
what we had to work with right so we don't have any evidence suggesting where Danny went but do we have any other kind
00:37:08
of evidence another thing that we had is we talked about how Danny was neglected
00:37:15
because of his condition of his hygiene Danny had contracted a infestation of what they call scabies which I think are
00:37:26
like they're like it's scabies or like these bugs that make you wish are like bedbugs if you will and because of the
00:37:37
scabies Danny's mom had to do a complete cleaning of the house doing all the laundry that was located in the house
00:37:46
and she also had to have Danny's head shaved because the scabies would I guess lived in the hair I don't know that much
00:37:54
about it but I remember the scabies was a big issue and when we were looking for
00:37:58
Danny his hair was a crew-cut and there were some strange tips that were coming into
00:38:03
the police department regarding the disappearance of this small boy do you recall any of those burn Bernie and I we
00:38:12
decided that we would the interview was mom very thoroughly we would interview his sister Shannon and
00:38:20
his brother Brandon and we would slowly take everything we could extract from them and we would verify and run out
00:38:31
each specific thing and when it came to Danny's mom the crowd she hung with wasn't the best and so we started
00:38:42
looking through her friends and one guy in particular we determined from Jackie's friends that this guy was very
00:38:54
sexually active and also very sexually aggressive and while there was nothing to indicate he preferred children we
00:39:03
were going to give him a good you know look and we eventually found him he was down in the LA area and we arranged for
00:39:14
a polygraph operator from the Los Angeles division and verne supervisor Perry and mind Don arranged for Vern and
00:39:25
I to get the funding so he could go to LA and have him how this guy polygraphed this is where as new investigators you
00:39:37
start learning the ups and downs of working these cold cases and Vern and I got ourselves worked up thinking this
00:39:45
guy could be a good contender and so we had a lot of expectations and hopes when
00:39:50
we drove down to LA and the pellagra fur we had was guy named jack to mark a really really good guy who got some in
00:39:58
his own right was was well known and thought of and we got the guy and had him do a polygraph with Jack we told you
00:40:09
act that we thought he would be a good contender because of his behavior incidents that had been described that
00:40:16
associated with them was inappropriate sexual you know forwarding with women things like that and Vern and I what
00:40:25
happens with the polygraph is it takes several hours and Vern and I in a lobby area while Jack had taken
00:40:34
this suspect into one of the motel rooms were and and polygraphed and Vern and I
00:40:41
are sitting out there and shortly after a few hours the guy comes out and he looks sullen and his eyes are on the
00:40:53
ground and he is really shaken up so of course Vern and I get really excited thinking oh you know this could
00:41:00
be it and Jack came out a short time after him and we said you know like how'd it go when he goes it's not him so
00:41:08
we've got ourselves so wound up thinking it would be him it it took some time for
00:41:14
it to settle in that it wasn't him but Jack said even though the guy passed his polygraph he thought he would
00:41:21
interrogate him anyway and the result was this guy coming out of the room the way he was jacket really going after him
00:41:30
and I gotta tell you it makes me proud to be an FBI agent to know that you know the guys you work with her are so good
00:41:38
and so dedicated and passionate that just because we were talking about the word bouts of a missing six-year-old boy
00:41:46
now Jack was not going to let this go until he himself was content so when he let the guy out he was pretty convinced
00:41:55
the guy had nothing to do with it so Bernie and I thanked him but we had to get done because the guy who literally
00:42:01
walked out and kept walking and we were losing them and we wanted to just touch base with him and we found him a couple
00:42:11
miles away from the hotel and we offered him a ride home and he was crying and refused our ride home because he was so
00:42:22
upset and shaken up by the interrogation and it's an example of how you can get your hopes up as an investigator and
00:42:32
then come crashing down when it's not what you think and as you work these cases Nick what happens is you put so
00:42:40
much of yourself into each lead and things start working up that when the lead falls through it not only comes
00:42:50
as a shock and disappointment but it kind of saps your energy for a day or two we talked a little bit about Jackie
00:42:58
Danny's mother and her lifestyle in Danny's home life when you start looking into this cold case there was reason to
00:43:06
have suspicions regarding Jackie yes this is really a special time for me before I had even met Jackie from
00:43:18
reading the files and realizing the life that Danny had I was already angry at her
00:43:25
bear in mind Nick that I had myself a six-year-old boy same age as Danny who was going through the after-effects of a
00:43:38
disease that threatened his life has almost took him from us Laurie you know had handled it with more emotional
00:43:45
strength that I did and so here's a mom I'm talking to that's got a boy who's healthy and she neglects him so before I
00:43:53
even met Jackie I was prejudicial towards her I was angry so I I went with Vern and we went to Jackie's house and
00:44:03
the door opened and Jackie came out and she and Vern gave this huge hug and I felt myself get a little upset with
00:44:13
Vernon I'm like why are you hugging this woman after what she's done and she was
00:44:18
also considered by many to be a suspect it was believed that because of her inebriated state she may have done
00:44:27
something to Danny accidentally and and caused him to to die or whatever and then gotten rid of him so there was a
00:44:35
lot of suspicion and I didn't see any reason that she should not be considered in that light but Vern did not think she
00:44:45
had anything to do with it and I learned a huge lesson from Vern that day I learned that when you treat people with
00:44:54
respect and you don't judge them they become a lot more truthful honest and reflective trying to help you
00:45:06
figure out what's going on because as we sat there that day it was clear to me that Jackie knew that she was part of
00:45:15
the problem that she knew she had failed Danny's welfare she knew that this probably might not have happened if she
00:45:26
had been a more hands-on mother and it was very hard to maintain that level of anger that I felt before I met her
00:45:33
seeing her this way and I also saw that the burn was just so amazing with her that I believe strongly that Jackie not
00:45:45
only had not been in involved but was being treated with such a Cavalier like oh she did it and he's going and we're
00:45:58
never going to find him and from being was wearing that there I was like we need to we need to go through Jackie and
00:46:06
either find out if she did this or or stop prioritizing her and so we arranged for Jackie to come down to the FBI
00:46:15
office in Sacramento and she was polygraphed in Sacramento and it was a female fully prefer who I worked with
00:46:24
was really good I really liked her and she came out of the polygraph and said that Jackie had passed her polygraph
00:46:33
that one of the problems with the previous polygraphs is that polygraphs were done in such a way as to cause her
00:46:41
to become emotional and that threw off the results and and this might be a good time for your listeners to understand
00:46:49
how a polygraph works because a polygraph measures physical function there's it measures your pulse it
00:46:57
measures your blood pressure it measures your heartbeat and it also measures the
00:47:03
conductivity of your skin so if you start sweating for instance that conductivity goes up
00:47:10
and all these things together are then go through an algorithm and give the pellagra for an idea of the whether the
00:47:19
person is speaking truthfully or not but consider this Nik I have never met a victim parent whose child is gone
00:47:29
missing that passed the polygraph they all fail because they all feel responsible for the disappearance they
00:47:38
all feel that they let their child down and so they all feel like they're the reason the Charles missing and so the
00:47:47
polygraph indicates to them you know shows them as as failing when in reality they're blaming themselves so you always
00:47:56
have to take into consideration the total environment all all of the facets of what you're dealing with I hate to
00:48:06
say it but I did see in one instance a father pass a polygraph and what I realized in time about that father was
00:48:18
that he really didn't care about his child being missing so all of the emotional aspects that would have caused
00:48:24
the polygraph to show its its results weren't there because he really didn't care a person who doesn't have emotion
00:48:33
he's more likely or he or she is more likely to pass a polygraph because the polygraph is based on our ability to
00:48:41
feel and have emotion and react and the and of course the philosophy is that if you tell a lie if you mislead that's
00:48:51
that you're going to react to that you're gonna you know you're doing something wrong and your body reacts
00:48:56
physically to what your mind is doing mentally right and during this interviewing process and and sifting
00:49:03
through this information there are other leads that are coming in yeah I believe
00:49:08
there was one if I recall correctly they involved a victim of molestation they indicated that possibly their father
00:49:17
could have been involved in the disappearance of Danny yes it's amazing you know I remember writing
00:49:25
about it now in the book when you're looking for a missing child the natural belief is that whoever took the child or
00:49:36
killed the child was doing more than just taking the child that there was a sexual motive
00:49:42
we got a tip in from a guy who believed that his father could be a suspect and I
00:49:51
don't remember exactly now but I remember that he was able to give us enough supporting information that we
00:49:59
were able to put this guy in close proximity to Danny and possibly he could you know maybe he needed to be looked at
00:50:10
further he turned out to have an alibi that that didn't you know that caused him to be cleared but the thing I
00:50:21
remember the most about that lead which really stays with me even now is that this man described to me that as a boy
00:50:33
he would try and stay up all night long and sit in the hallway to keep his father from going in and assaulting his
00:50:45
sister and he felt responsible that he couldn't do that it left a seed in me of the realization
00:50:57
of how hard this is for the family members not only the victims families and that when something happens to
00:51:09
another person many times victims of similar crimes and victims families of similar crimes will reappear Ian's say
00:51:20
did and it will it will reaffirm and I've always taken that with me since [Music]
00:51:39
for all of our old episodes download the stitcher app they're free exclusively on
00:51:45
this to trap also check out our bonus show our weekly show off the record on stitcher premium this week we're talking
00:51:53
about the documentary the HBO documentary of Adnan Syed all right we will see everybody back here in the
00:52:00
garage tomorrow until then be good be kind and don't live [Music] [Applause] [Music]