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[Applause] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
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complicated and that's enough of the beers Nails that's right gather around grab a chair grab a beer and let's talk
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some true [Music] crime [Music] [Music] this is true crime garage and this is the case of the
00:04:25
Atlanta child murders [Music] our special segment tonight is a fresh look at the series of murders in
00:04:41
[Music] Atlanta Aaron Jackson junr was among the youngest only 9 years old Luby Jeter was
00:04:50
14 Timothy Hill 13 Patrick Bazar 11 for almost 2 years the bodies have kept coming out of Atlanta's rivers and woods
00:05:00
and week after week police speak of sorrow and sympathy but not a solution this is just a tragic har night M that
00:05:08
we're going through we're not in a position today to make an arrest there are cases in history that have gone on
00:05:14
much longer than this has at police Task Force Headquarters there are 27 faces on
00:05:20
the wall 26 murdered one missing the killer there is a handful of sketches no one the same no one certain to be the
00:05:27
person police want almost a year after the task force was set up police can't answer who or why they don't know how or
00:05:35
where or even how many of the black victims may have been killed by the same person one investigator says even if the
00:05:42
killer walked in the door and confessed there is not enough evidence now to convict him a half dozen of the cases
00:05:48
may be isolated unrelated homicides the victims found near home killed perhaps by family or friends but somewhere in
00:05:56
the city of Atlanta there is a person who was killed 15 or 20 boys and young men the district attorney keeps a chart
00:06:03
on the wall with names of the dead and room for more with my theory the uh person is not abducted not kidnapped not
00:06:12
snatched off the street at that particular time but is willingly going with somebody for something at least at
00:06:18
the instance they get in the car they're going to make some money or they going to meet somebody that they're going
00:06:25
starting off willingly like many victims JoJo Bell 15 was a child of the streets
00:06:31
always in need of money he worked for his supper once in a while at the seafood carry out and always asked the
00:06:36
owner to give him a ride home he went walk speed tonight because because of the killing you know he's he's a joke
00:06:43
about it you know he's I a let the kill the kid snatch to snatch me but someone did somebody
00:06:50
did Bell had been a basketball buddy of Timothy Hill Hill spent his last known night at The sey Shack on gry Street the
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home of a 63y old homosexual called Uncle Tom none of the victims has been found sexually abused but the obvious
00:07:05
question intrigues investigators Mickey McIntosh one of the adults killed hung around the same carry out where JoJo
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Bell worked you know I have seen gay come down and see Mickey in the car with you know G uh it it be dressed all up
00:07:18
and stuff they'll come by here and sometime look for Atlanta's safety commissioner will say only what he
00:07:24
doesn't know where we are in the investigation right now is we do not know the person or person that are
00:07:29
responsible therefore we do not have the motive the killer seems to taunt police
00:07:34
and read press clippings after a well publicized but fudal search along a road in an outling County the next child
00:07:40
strangled with a rope was dumped there and when a Suburban police official criticized Atlanta's investigation a
00:07:47
child choked to death was left just inside that official's county line after a press report that police had found
00:07:54
fibers on some of the bodies six of the last seven victims have been dropped into rivers all stripped to their
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undershorts or less possibly to wash away evidence NBC News has learned in some cases the synthetic fibers were
00:08:08
found on victim's clothing hanging in closets at home indicating those children may have visited their killer
00:08:15
at times before their death but authorities have had this secret evidence for weeks and it still has not
00:08:21
led to the killer police are undermanned and there is grumbling in the ranks one
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patrolman is quoted they don't tell us anything it seems like they don't trust us the murder investigation is being run
00:08:33
by 103 person Task Force One official concedes it's not even certain what to tell the cop on the beat to look for the
00:08:40
investigation seems beset by friction and frustration we're going to Sol the cases that's our resolve the only
00:08:47
unanswered question right now is when meanwhile at this Cemetery the dead Bell Hill Macintosh are being buried faster
00:08:55
than the cemetery can supply grave markers with their names sadly some officials concede Atlanta is unlikely to
00:09:02
catch the killer unless he keeps on killing I will say that there's a better chance to catch him if he doesn't
00:09:11
[Music] stop [Music] tonight we are talking about the Atlanta child murders this is a series of
00:09:42
murders that took place in the great city of Atlanta Georgia way back in 1979 was when the first victim was found and
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it carried all the way until 1981 it spaned about 2 years uh unfortunately saw a lot of victims in this case um
00:09:59
some you know there's some debate on on uh if all of the victims belong in this case or if they're actually individual
00:10:07
cases but depending on the source that you check out you could see a number as high as 28 victims this was a case that
00:10:15
uh gripped the city of Atlanta in fear um there was there were curfews there was everything that they could do to try
00:10:22
to bring to apprehend this killer and to stop to stop the killings yeah there was
00:10:28
a special task force set up by the police department so there was a and then the FBI was involved um and also
00:10:36
they set up this thing called The Guardian Angels which was a volunteer group mainly of like older teens and and
00:10:43
and uh males in their 20s and they were kind of known as like the rougher kids but these kids were then taken to the
00:10:50
streets trying to get any information leads uh some way of identifying a suspect because they had a lot of you
00:10:59
know um sketches made of you know when somebody thought they saw a suspect or but we're talking about I mean one would
00:11:08
be a black man one would be a white man one would be a Mexican man sometimes there would be two men um sometimes two
00:11:15
men so it was they didn't have very much of a solid lead at all well and on top of that too here the the citizens
00:11:25
forming their own task force the reason that this happens is that they start to not believe in their own police force at
00:11:32
some point at some point the victim number gets to be so high that they don't think that the police can solve
00:11:38
this some of the people thought maybe the police did not want to solve this and we'll get into that more uh as we
00:11:44
get into this case yeah and we also had there was rumors that the the people that they thought were suspects possibly
00:11:52
were wearing police uniforms and so I think that's why these task force were set up by the communities
00:11:59
the first victim that is is attributed to this case is Edward hope Smith uh he was a 14-year-old boy who was last seen
00:12:08
July 20th 1979 he was leaving a skating rink uh he was found 8 days later at nisy Lake Drive and the cause of his
00:12:18
death was a 22 caliber shotgun to the upper back remarkably on the same day police investig investigators found the
00:12:27
body of Alfred Evans a 13-year-old boy who was last seen July 25th Alfred was last known to have been walking to a
00:12:36
theater Alfred Evans his cause of death was listed as undetermined unfortunately
00:12:42
and I'm and I'm a little uncertain as to why or to the particulars of this but Alfred's body would remain unidentified
00:12:49
for about 14 months and this of course certainly does not help the investigation through March of 1980 four
00:12:57
more children disappeared this further complicating the investigation the first was Milton Harvey age 14 he was last
00:13:05
seen September 4th 1979 he disappeared he was out running an errand he was going to the bank for
00:13:12
his mother uh he was writing a yellow 10-speed bike now the bike was found a week later in Atlanta but there still
00:13:20
was no sign of the boy he eventually was found November 5th so this is about 2 months later he's found in a wooded area
00:13:27
in the neighboring city of East Point Milton Harvey had been dead about 1 month when found and of course there had
00:13:33
been quite a bit of decomposition that had taken place so his cause of death was listed as undetermined as well
00:13:41
detectives would not immediately connect Milton Harvey's death to that of the first two boys because his body was
00:13:48
found outside of the area the second was Yousef Bell he was last seen October 21st when he went to
00:13:56
the store to buy snuff for a neighbor mhm later a witness would tell the police cheing tobacco for people that
00:14:03
don't know what snuff is later a witness would tell the police that she saw Yousef getting into a blue car yousef's
00:14:10
body was found on November 8th by a School Janitor looking for a place to urinate his body was found in the crawl
00:14:18
space of an abandoned Elementary School building nearby the boy's home right so the so the janitor was going to go pee
00:14:25
in the crawl space he was going to go pee inside an abandoned building way in the cross space it's maybe he felt like
00:14:33
he needed some privacy I don't know seems like a strange situation to me but that's who found the boy's body now keep
00:14:40
in mind this abandoned Elementary School building was near the boy's home and because the boy's body was found indoors
00:14:47
and not outside in wooded areas like the earlier found victims his case was not immediately connected to the others as
00:14:55
well yeah the boy was found wearing the clothing that he was last scen wearing and he had been hit over the head twice
00:15:01
and his cause of death was strangulation the third was Angel lanir this is a 12-year-old female this is the
00:15:10
first girl victim that we would see lanir had disappeared on May 4th I'm sorry March 4th
00:15:17
1980 she left her house around 400 p.m. wearing a denim outfit and she was last seen at a friend's house watching TV she
00:15:25
is found 6 days later in a wooded area and she had been stabbed to death now there are some conflicting stories here
00:15:32
I saw a couple of uh sources here and I do want to point this out couple sources
00:15:38
that said that she was stabbed to death and a couple sources that said she had been stabbed but cause of death was
00:15:43
strangulation yeah this is going to be a repeating cycle that you'll see uh different reports for each victim mhm
00:15:52
she was wearing the same clothes in which she had left home but there was something different here something very
00:15:58
different a pair of white panties had been stuffed in her mouth and her hands were bound with electrical tape yeah and
00:16:05
they believe that those panties did not belong to her correct they were not hers
00:16:09
so this is March 10th 1980 now here's something kind of strange here Captain right we have Angel
00:16:17
laner who's found March 10th 1980 and she's found it in the wooded area near Campbellton Road and Willowbrook Road so
00:16:26
about a year later the body of Jeffrey Lamar matys is found in the same location but the crazy thing here is
00:16:34
matthys disappeared on March 11th this is just one day after they found the body of lanir so you know he he took
00:16:43
took the girl he dumps her in a location and then she's found and the very next day he's out abducting another victim
00:16:50
and they would they would find this victim in the same area so whomever did this takes two victims within a week of
00:16:58
one another and dumps the bodies in the same location now I have to wonder how long until he returned to the site of
00:17:06
where he left Angel's body and then he's back there again dumping another body and this is right after the police were
00:17:12
there this is taunting it's it's no doubt in my mind that the killer he he felt like he could not be caught and
00:17:20
that his armor was so strong that they would never catch up to him mhm so Jeffrey matys was an 11-year-old boy he
00:17:27
disappeared when he went to run an erand for his mother he was wearing gray jogging pants brown shoes and a white
00:17:34
and green shirt a girl said that she had seen Jeffrey get into a car with a light-skinned man and a dark skinned man
00:17:42
so here we go the first report of seeing two possible uh Killers or abductors from the way you're reporting it seems
00:17:51
like this is the first time that anybody's been seen yeah this is any line we have a vehicle that was was
00:17:58
spotted ear the blue vehicle and then we have uh now these two suspects and now he's seen getting in the vehicle with
00:18:05
with two people and this vehicle is blue as well this is a he's seen getting into
00:18:10
a car no description of the vehicle just a a brief description of each man now these two men could have had nothing to
00:18:17
do with this case it could have just been a car that he happened to get into on May 18th a 14-year-old boy his name
00:18:25
is Eric Middlebrooks uh he answers the phone and then he leaves in a hurry on his
00:18:30
bicycle his body is found very quickly it's found the next day along with his bike now here's a Twist here he's found
00:18:39
in the rear garage of an Atlanta bar uh next door is the Georgia Department of offender
00:18:47
Rehabilitation he has stab wounds on his chest and his arms these are like small
00:18:53
stab wounds and he died of blunt force trauma to the Head his his pockets in his pants were pulled inside out yeah
00:19:00
see uh it seems like again with a lot of these victims I mean a lot of times people think well if there is a killer
00:19:07
then there he's killing uh his victims all in the same manner and in this case you kind of see this mostly repeating
00:19:15
theme of strangulation but not always again in this case uh not lining up with the strangulation either but again like
00:19:24
you said that there was this taunting you know effect going on so maybe it was because um there was something in the
00:19:33
paper that made him decide well I'm going to leave a victim out in the open yeah and this is one that I actually
00:19:40
thought when when reviewing this case I wasn't convinced that all of the victims
00:19:45
listed were part of the same case I thought that there were a few that might be individual cases this is one that I
00:19:51
thought could have been an individual case um but this is one where they will find evidence to be able to link this to
00:19:57
some of of the other cases the reason why I thought this was an individual case is this this young man he had um
00:20:05
some run-ins with some thuggish people he had uh he had testified in court against some people uh against like a a
00:20:12
young gang of kids um and I think it was initially thought that that was yeah retaliation for testifying and EXA and
00:20:21
exactly he's found in a different situation he's not found in a wooded area on June 9th 12-year-old Christopher
00:20:28
Richardson he is last seen going to a public swimming pool he's last seen wearing blue shorts a light blue shirt
00:20:36
and blue tennis shoes and he is found the the following January with yet another boy who was killed and his name
00:20:44
was Earl Terell on June 22nd 7-year-old latan Wilson disappeared from her parents apartment this is the second
00:20:52
girl victim that we're seeing here according to a witness she appeared to have been abducted by two men one of
00:20:59
whom was seen climbing into the apartment Window and then holding Wilson in his arms as he spoke to the other man
00:21:06
in the parking lot on October 18th Wilson's body was found in a fenced in area at the end of verbina Street in
00:21:14
Atlanta by by then the body had been skeletonized and so again we seeing a situation where there no cause of death
00:21:22
could be established the next day June 23rd 10-year-old Aaron wheat disappeared after having been seen near
00:21:30
a local grocery store getting into a blue Chevrolet mhm with either one or two African-American men the witness's
00:21:39
description of the car matched a description of a similar car implicated in an earlier case this was the Jeffrey
00:21:45
matthys disappearance at 6: p.m. the victim was seen at a shopping center the following day wha's body was found under
00:21:54
a bridge the official cause of death was iation from a broken neck suffered in a
00:22:00
fall in July of 1980 two more children Anthony Carter and Earl Terell were murdered we talked about Terell he was
00:22:09
found with uh with Christopher Richardson's body between August and November of 1980 five more killings took
00:22:16
place there were no known victims during the month of December all of the victims
00:22:21
were African American children between the ages of 7 and 14 and most had been exfix the murders continued into 1981
00:22:30
the first known victim in the new year was lubi Gater uh who disappeared January 3rd he had been last seen in the
00:22:38
area of Stewart Lakewood Shopping Center in southwest Atlanta geeter's body was found on February 5th in a wooded area
00:22:46
this was just Jeter what's that it's pronounced Jeter oh thank you just like dere dere Jeter but spelled differently
00:22:53
uh so so Jeter this his body is found 70 feet from Van diver road which runs off
00:23:00
of Campton road which remember this is where two earlier victims had been found Jeter's friend Terry Pew also went
00:23:09
missing in January now an anonymous caller called and told police where to find Pew's body they found Pew's body in
00:23:18
Rockdale County so we have another jurisdiction to throw into the mix here Terry was last seen at the crystal
00:23:26
that's Crystal with the K restaurant on January 22nd Terry frequented a place called The Omni uh this is also a place
00:23:35
that a couple of the other victims were known to have hang to hang out it was like kind of a Teenage spot to go to uh
00:23:42
Patrick balazar would be another victim and he hung out at the Omni as well Patrick was
00:23:48
11 and he was last seen in the evening hours on Courtland Street this was February 6th and his body was found
00:23:55
February 14th behind the corporate Square Office Park this is in deal deal County did I say that right yeah I think
00:24:03
that's correct that's pretty close uh but again another jurisic enjoy the hate mail yeah he was found fully clothed uh
00:24:11
although his clothing was unbuttoned and the cause of his death was expiation due
00:24:16
to leature in February of 1981 an Atlanta newspaper ran an article stating that the matching fibers that matching fibers
00:24:27
were found on two of the victim's bodies this was a big turning point in our case
00:24:31
because the killer just like we talked about last week our killer is reading the newspaper he's watching the news and
00:24:37
he's reacting and adapting what he is doing to go against the investigation now there's one thing I do
00:24:45
want to touch on here real quick Captain you know that some in some circles and I've heard it said uh several times and
00:24:51
I think this this is a common misconception amongst the general public and you hear this from time to time that
00:24:57
serial killers want to be caught maybe not on the surface but somewhere deep down inside that they want to be caught
00:25:03
and that is why they end up getting caught in the end so here's the thing he's adapting right
00:25:10
so go ahead and believe that they want to be caught if that makes you feel safer but but the absolute truth is no
00:25:18
no they don't they don't want to be caught the majority of them do not want to be caught there there have been a few
00:25:24
there's one I and don't ask me his name right now but what's his name there's one serial killer I can remember that
00:25:29
turned himself in um and you know so there there might be a few that want to be caught but but the majority of them
00:25:36
do not want to be caught at all because this is their drug killing and all that is involved in in the in the ritual for
00:25:44
them this is it's their what gets them high you know the sexual assaults involved the rape or the just act of
00:25:52
kidnapping the terror on the person's face the look in the in their eye when they're strangling them it's this is all
00:25:59
part of their of their game the it's little graphic for me but right but those those are the things that that I
00:26:06
think that's assuming a lot going yeah I think that's I think that's what we assume I think especially in this case
00:26:12
too A lot of people will say that these aren't connected um there you know they're not
00:26:17
connected because the different deaths and that a serial killer would kill somebody the same way over and over and
00:26:25
over there would be no uh inconsist which we've seen time and time again that that's normally not true either
00:26:32
well I don't know that it's assuming a whole lot of stuff because I mean again time after time in these cases we see
00:26:39
the killer adapting his techniques to elude detection you know he is this guy is now dumping his victims in the river
00:26:47
and leaving them in only a pair of shorts or nude so that there are little to no hairs fibers pet hair anything on
00:26:55
the bodies yeah they the the police end up talking about these fibers and therefore then it's like well now I got
00:27:00
to change up my game how can I dump the bodies without there being fibers on them I'll dump them into the water yeah
00:27:06
and and even if I do happen to still leave fibers animal hair pet you know yeah it's hair a lot of evidence the the
00:27:15
water should be washing this away but there there's uh conflicting reports on this anyways because there's multiple
00:27:20
times that the news um in the 1979 and 1980 they're talking about that uh the majority of these victims were sexually
00:27:29
abused and then later on uh it's really hard to find any talk about sexual abuse
00:27:35
and any of the reports after you know 81 MH uh and as we said after this report comes out in in February of 1981 now the
00:27:46
new victims are being dumped into the rivers uh in March there were four more murders that took place uh this included
00:27:54
Eddie Duncan he's the first adult victim um in April there was Larry Rogers was murdered and there were two more adults
00:28:02
John Porter and Jimmy Ray Payne well and that's again if you assume that all these victims are part of the whole
00:28:11
Atlanta child murders and then after that we have William Barrett he went missing May 16th 1981 his body was found
00:28:19
close to his home and this is the last victim added to I'm sorry the last victim added to this list that I'm aware
00:28:26
of is Nathaniel C who is 27 years old so we're seeing all kinds of different activity here right if if we're to
00:28:34
believe that they're all connected and it's a really tough thing to go through because there are so many victims in
00:28:40
such a short amount of time you know if we assume that all 28 are connected depending on what report you're going
00:28:47
with um that's 28 victims that they find within a 2-year period it's becomes this
00:28:54
crazy list and so you know sorry that we have to go through that morbid uh list but uh this also is the reason why they
00:29:03
spawn uh they spawned a book called the list and if you dive into this case more
00:29:08
you're going to see that as a reference point over and over that's called the list uh we'll talk more about this case
00:29:14
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00:31:14
from our beer break cheers everybody cheers we've already gone through the victims in the Atlanta child murders
00:31:22
case and earlier we touched upon the idea that the the locals the civilians had set up their own task force because
00:31:30
they weren't really believing in the police efforts and didn't trust the police to to finish the job right but
00:31:37
they had we've already are seeing multiple jurisdictions multiple agencies working together to try to solve this
00:31:44
case yeah the FBI is involved at this point as well the FBI gets involved as well as the BCI units they come in and
00:31:52
they're trying to figure out how to apprehend this person that is killing off the youth in Atlanta mhm now there's
00:31:58
a couple problems here though they they come up with some different ideas and we'll touch on those in a minute what
00:32:03
what I do want to get into right now is the super cops so enter the super cops uh these this was an idea that they
00:32:11
would grab some of the detectives and police officers that were involved in some of the most notorious cases in the
00:32:18
United States they would get them together for a meeting they would present them with the victims much like
00:32:24
we just did earlier and they would asked the super cops to as a group form several opinions about the case yeah
00:32:32
kind of a profiling session yes uh so what who were the super cops these were people that were involved in the most
00:32:40
notorious cases uh they were looking for officers and detectives who had handled
00:32:45
one or two or sorry one of two different types of Serial cases the first being detectives who did not know that a
00:32:53
series of murders had taken place before the offender was caught the second being
00:32:58
detectives who were already pursuing serial cases but did not know who the killer was and here is a list of the
00:33:05
members making up the task force that was the Super cops we have Captain Sydney Smith and detective David milon
00:33:12
these were two guys that investigated the sexually sadistic Killers Dean coral and Elmer Wayne Henley who killed 17
00:33:20
people and buried their bodies in a boat storage building in Texas mhm next we have detective Frank Brun he was one of
00:33:28
the detectives in the famous John Wayne gasy case from near Chicago gasy killed 27 young men and buried their bodies in
00:33:35
his crawl space and some in the yard as well we also have inspector Joseph barelli uh and we've actually discussed
00:33:42
him on this show he investigated the famous Son of Sam case in New York City and of course you know he he was the one
00:33:49
that was out shooting couples that were sitting in their cars we have Lieutenant
00:33:53
Ed H Henderson and detective Philip saruchi from Los Angeles and Bellingham Washington they investigated the
00:34:01
Hillside Strangler case we also have inspector Jeff BR he investigated the zebra killings in San Francisco which
00:34:08
were committed by African-American religious extremists and last but not least we have Lieutenant Frank Chase and
00:34:15
detective Robert Keele from the Ted Bundy murder cases now the super cops as said they were presented with with the
00:34:23
cases and with the crimes and they were asked to come up with they had three objectives all right the first was to
00:34:30
give an opinion on how many murders were connected the second objective was to provide a criminal profile and the third
00:34:38
to give a plan for apprehension now let's talk about the first objective murders connected the
00:34:45
super cops believed that at least 23 of the 27 murders that they had reviewed were connected and committed by the same
00:34:53
person okay and using this they they they're going off of the idea that they had animal hairs and fibers linking nine
00:35:01
of the victims so there was not much debate over those nine right yeah but then we had a lot of the victims that
00:35:07
ended up in the water mhm so that could uh you know deter some of the evidence so I I think that's what they're going
00:35:15
off of is we got nine that we can link so then we can probably link some of the ones that went into the water as well
00:35:20
you're exactly right we have the nine that were were linked by fibers or animal hairs or both um and then we have
00:35:26
other victim that were found with some of those victims or near those victims uh and again as mention or they also had
00:35:34
relationships to the other victims and then we start seeing the victims showing up in the rivers so this is the uh this
00:35:40
is the killer adapting to the investigation and they believe that these are all linked as well so that
00:35:46
bumps up the number quite a bit they did say that they could not and would not rule out the other four murders uh all
00:35:54
27 could have been the work of one serial killer but they felt very strongly about the 23 mhm the second
00:36:02
objective was to create a criminal profile now nobody it's hard to find somebody that's willing to take
00:36:11
responsibility for this okay uh there was a theory going out there in the beginning of this case and and it was
00:36:18
going on until these super cops got involved now this theory was that these crimes were committed by a white racist
00:36:26
group mhm by white racist person or persons or an occult uh and they used these theories thinking with the thought
00:36:35
that somebody or someone's they were working together to eliminate African-American youths in the
00:36:42
community to create this all kinds of fear yeah well I I I don't think fear would be the type right motive I think
00:36:52
what if it was a white supremacist group what they're trying trying to do is create one fear but outrage and then
00:37:01
basically what you want to cause is aace war well the first thing that the super
00:37:07
cops come up with and they're not very far into the presentation that they all seem to agree that the Atlanta child
00:37:13
murders were more likely committed by an African-American male in his 20s and they yeah okay and they were going they
00:37:20
have some theories on this all right let's hear these these genius theories okay very ining but uh some of the
00:37:28
killings had victims disappearing and or were last seen in areas popular with young African-American males MH um and
00:37:37
affixation affixation was being the predominant method of death and this does not logically fit the white racist
00:37:45
Theory these were not terrorist murders this was committed by somebody a young African-American male in his 20s whose
00:37:53
method of operation reflected a personality with a need for Hands-On activity with each victim before and
00:37:59
after death this would be a killer that had the ability to move about freely he would have to have had relationships in
00:38:06
the community and he needed his presence in the area he he so he could be in the
00:38:11
area on any given day that he would choose and it it would not be considered anything out of the ordinary he was
00:38:18
somebody that could walk amongst the people and not not stand out the super cops also believed that the killer was
00:38:24
taking victims that had no idea that they were in danger asphixiation is the most likely cause of death in most of
00:38:31
the cases and in those cases there are no signs of struggle this most likely points out that the killer was
00:38:37
strangling them by surprise or they were drowsy he was he was doing something to
00:38:43
create to so they would let their guard down uh and that he'd be able to surprise wouldn't they have a toxicology
00:38:51
report that was the first thing that the super cops asked of the Atlanta police Department that they wanted to see if
00:38:58
there were toxic toxicology reports done on the victims they were not provided with this the super cops did stick with
00:39:06
this Theory though they were saying that it was most likely that he was using drugs or alcohol to induce this
00:39:11
drowsiness and that he could quickly and and well and what we hear from the one uh I believe he's a
00:39:18
detective in the trailer is he says that he believes that the that these victims
00:39:26
are going with uh the suspect willingly so there is no like struggle there's no like hey get in the car I got a gun that
00:39:34
so so again going with the super cop Theory yeah and then once that they were drugged or drowsy that he could then
00:39:41
quickly suffocate the children or the victims um and one thing that they're pointing out here is just like that
00:39:49
other detective said that you just spoke about that for somebody to be able to do
00:39:54
this for a killer to be able to do this this would mean he would have had to have patience and a plan and it meant
00:40:00
that the killer would have spent considerable time with each victim from the initial point of contact to the
00:40:06
induction of the state of drowsiness and then to the eventual murder to accomplish all of this meant that the
00:40:12
killer was deceptive and that the victims trusted him they also believed that the killer would have had something
00:40:19
that the young victims would have wanted and that this would be how he would lure
00:40:23
them into his trap money money or something you're exactly right I mean all these victims were coming from poor
00:40:29
areas yeah and they thought that the Killer's line of approach was most likely an offer of a short-term job to
00:40:36
make quick money mhm and they also noted that this is something that they had seen in their previous cases and that
00:40:42
this is a typical serial killer Lure to the young victims the killer may have looked like a role model or a big
00:40:49
brother type figure he is able to get his victims that range in age from 9 years old to 28 years old old under his
00:40:57
complete control mhm and what added to his ability to attract each one of those boys was that they were exact clones of
00:41:05
the murder of the murderer himself of what he thought of his own self-image he looked thought walked and talked just
00:41:13
like the victims and that would be what would appeal to the victims the most he identified with his victims so well that
00:41:20
his victims probably never were afraid of him he would have presented himself as educated well integrated into the
00:41:27
community and always having a good job his victims because they were young they were unable to see through his mask of
00:41:34
superficiality so the killer has the ability to mingle across a spectrum of Elementary boys teenage victims and
00:41:41
young adults that would lead you to expect to find the killers comfortable in each of those atmospheres he was or
00:41:49
probably still is a volunteer or employee of a boys of some type of boy club you know like the Boy Scouts of
00:41:57
America or the YMCA or so on yeah or after school program and he very well likely might have been a volunteer
00:42:04
substitute teacher or vendor in an elementary school he may have frequented boy prostitutes or been involved in the
00:42:11
gay scene he is not likely to have been an out ofthe closet homosexual in fact he might have been known to hate
00:42:18
homosexuals in some circles and be superficially heterosexual in his own family then there was the need for total
00:42:26
possession of the victims by engaging in postmortem activities with them he had a
00:42:31
sex drive that embraced necrophiliac Tendencies and a willingness to spend considerable amount of time with the
00:42:38
victims after their death mhm and he was also leaving the victims nude or close to nude imposing them in sexually
00:42:45
degrading manner as the police began to look more and more inept this gave him a
00:42:51
feeling of superiority he wanted the police to feel psychologically like he really felt helpless and controlled they
00:42:59
also knew that the killer was very aware of the environment and sensitive to the
00:43:03
nature of the police pursuit and clever enough to modify his methods of movement
00:43:08
and he and the people that he prayed on again we talk about the changing of victim dump sites from mainly land to
00:43:17
Rivers was the response to the publicity of his crimes this also shows his ability to monitor the police
00:43:24
investigation through public resources how the police tracked him mainly with the what they were doing with the bodies
00:43:31
they were Examining The Remains and they're looking for these similar fibers and this was very very important to him
00:43:38
and then he chose to leave the victims in rivers and this would diminish these chances greatly he did not want to get
00:43:44
caught ever the killer was engaging in postmortem activities with the victim should have led investigators to check
00:43:51
out individuals who had worked no matter how briefly in the death death service field or were applicants for places like
00:43:59
funeral homes or the medical examiner's office that was their lengthy uh profile
00:44:06
of the killer but when it breaks down when you break it down to Simplicity what they're talking about is an
00:44:12
African-American male who can go into these neighborhoods and be almost unseen because he fits into the neighborhoods
00:44:19
people don't expect to you know a white racist person could stand out and might be more noticeable if there's children
00:44:27
getting into his vehicle but they want to point out that his his race and his age and they also talk about some of the
00:44:35
things of his personality they talk about he could be a volunteer or somebody that would work with children
00:44:40
or work inside of communities somebody that would be trusted someone that the victims would go along with willingly
00:44:47
and not ever suspect that they're in danger now I think this is a fantastic profile but of course I've been able to
00:44:53
see it Through The Eyes of somebody that's seen the case solved now at the time the local police decided that they
00:45:00
did not want to release this profile they wanted to keep this to themselves whether they believe the profile or not
00:45:07
I don't know but what they did continue to do is allow the public to believe that it was a white racist person or
00:45:15
white racist group or or the ult that was involved in these child killings their third objective was to come up
00:45:22
with a plan for apprehension now we do have to give credit to the Atlanta police force because they already had a
00:45:30
plan that they decided that they wanted to run it by the super cops to see if the super cops agreed with this plan and
00:45:36
if they thought that it would work the reason being it was going to be a very expensive plan to execute now their plan
00:45:43
was they now know that the killer wants to dump the bodies in the rivers well they have two rivers to be concerned
00:45:49
with they have the uh the South River and the chattah the chattah huchi river yep so they have what they have bridges
00:45:58
that they want to Monitor and they want to monitor these Bridges around the clock because they believe if they can
00:46:05
catch the person red-handed on the bridge with the body in his car or leaving the bridge after a body is
00:46:12
dumped then they've got their guy right yeah or possibly start to deter him from
00:46:18
dumping the bodies into the river so they have a but go ahead both of those rivers are gigantic so yeah to assume
00:46:26
that uh one that a killer is just dumping the body above a bridge I think is silly for one CU I mean there's a
00:46:35
million entrance points to that River MH and so so the fact that we go okay we're
00:46:40
going to go with these two locations this is what we believe we believe because of the fibers and what what you
00:46:46
haven't been talking about is the fibers that they believe that they have on these victims come from a vehicle
00:46:53
possibly a trunk or something so that's why their uh the Atlanta cops want to hone
00:47:00
in on these Bridges but I still think it's it's asinine because why would you stop on these major roads on these major
00:47:07
Bridges to dump off a body it doesn't make a lot of sense to me well what their plan's going to entail is that
00:47:14
they have 11 bridges that they want to monitor MH and they estimate that each one of these Bridges it's going to take
00:47:20
about five persons to monitor these Bridges because they need to put one person on each end of the bridge to
00:47:27
record who goes on and who leaves they also need somebody in the middle of the bridge or below the bridge to monitor
00:47:34
the water to see if there's a splash noise heard uh this would be them the killer dropping the body into the water
00:47:41
right they also needed two persons to send out Nets because if they need to prove that it's a body that was dumped
00:47:49
you know that it wasn't just somebody throwing a brick into the river um so what their plan was was as soon soon as
00:47:56
a splash was heard that officer or patrolman he would then make a call out to the to the persons with Nets they
00:48:03
would they would deploy the Nets and then the persons on each end of the bridge would be responsible for
00:48:08
monitoring and recording who the person was that left the bridge or had most recently arrived on the bridge and the
00:48:16
reason why this is going to be so expensive we talked about five officers per Bridge 11 Bridges and now you're
00:48:23
talking about guys working in 8h hour shifts so they can watch these Bridges around the clock now what is the math on
00:48:29
that that's like 165 guys just for a 24 hour shift to monitor 11 Bridges mhm to me this is not the best use of tax
00:48:39
dollars that's a good thought too because you don't know how long how many days in a row are you going to have to
00:48:45
monitor these Bridges it could go on for days or weeks and we saw at one point in
00:48:49
this case that there was a month or so without even with with no victims right um but they do catch a break uh this is
00:48:56
during a stake out of the bridges on May 22nd 1981 um they one of the officers hears a
00:49:02
splash beneath a bridge um another officer notes that a white 1970 Chevrolet station wagon had turned
00:49:10
around and drove back across the bridge after going up to the bridge it stopped turned around and came back two police
00:49:17
officers later then stopped this station wagon this would be about a half a mile
00:49:22
from the bridge the driver turns out to be 23-year old old Wayne Williams now they stop him they question
00:49:29
him where are you going what are you doing he claims that he is he has an appointment uh for an audition he is a
00:49:38
uh music promoter and a photographer kind like a talent scout basically and he's got an addition with an audition
00:49:45
with a girl named Cheryl Johnson she was trying to be a singer um and Williams claimed that she had lived in a nearby
00:49:53
town but police could not find any record of this person or the actual appointment yeah he also claims that he
00:50:00
didn't turn around on the bridge he claims that he turned around he actually went across the bridge and then actually
00:50:07
further down turned around they claim he turned around on the bridge he claimed that never happened two days later on
00:50:14
May 24th the nude body of Nathaniel Carter who was 27 years old he's one of the victims that we spoke about earlier
00:50:22
was found floating uh down the river this was about a few miles from the bridge where the police had heard the
00:50:28
Splash and had seen the suspicious vehicle and stopped Williams but here's where it starts getting pretty muddy is
00:50:36
because there's actually four W four eyewitnesses maybe more eyewitnesses that believe that they saw Nathaniel
00:50:43
alive the day after they stopped Williams on the bridge so this would be on May 23rd Williams is stopped on the
00:50:51
22nd right so basically this would make their suspicion n and void because he never dumped this body on that day the
00:50:59
other issue with this and this is where it gets more muddy is they believe they don't know how long Nathaniel was in the
00:51:06
water and it could have been up to 2 weeks based on the evidence that they found they couldn't tell maybe he's been
00:51:14
in the water for a few days maybe a few weeks mhm and so now you get these very crazy opposing uh accounts because if
00:51:24
people did see him a well then Williams is not your guy but also if they did see
00:51:29
him alive then how how is it not clear how long he was in the water because he would would have only been in the water
00:51:35
two days at that point right and but they do have in their defense on their side they have that Williams Wayne
00:51:44
Williams was the only person that was stopped on their their monitoring of these bridges yeah but how many weeks
00:51:50
were they monitoring these Bridges it was several weeks I believe it was four weeks yeah so you got four weeks and you
00:51:57
got nothing's happening how many cops were we talking about in a 24-hour shift 165 so 165 and and 24 hours you don't
00:52:07
pull over anybody suspicious then you pull over this young 23-year-old black black boy basically mhm and and because
00:52:15
he turned around he turned around somewhere whether it was on the bridge or if it was a little further down from
00:52:20
the bridge I think that's why they pulled him over I don't think I who knows if they heard
00:52:25
Splash yeah it it's been called the splash hurt around the world um and but regardless they pull over Williams but
00:52:34
the problem that we have with this is yeah you hear a splash who who you don't know that that's Nathaniel yes they find
00:52:42
Nathaniel but the two opposing accounts are one he's been in the water for weeks
00:52:48
so weeks before you heard a splash that happened two weeks ago that's either the
00:52:54
account or the other account is that Nathaniel was actually live the day after M and so there would be no splash
00:53:01
at all unless unless the one eyewitness account is completely wrong it's not one
00:53:07
it's at least four at least four and and and different reports that I've seen has
00:53:12
said four credible eight total now that's a lot of eyewitnesses when when Williams is
00:53:20
pulled over um the officers notice a 24in nylon is in his vehicle um and this this would
00:53:29
be what they would say would be the um murder weapon in several of these cases mhm and again we talk about how the
00:53:37
attack may have went down um these were attacks where there didn't seem to be any type of Defense wounds on some of
00:53:45
these victims some of the victims didn't even appear to have reached up to defend
00:53:50
themselves to pull whatever it was from their neck that was choking them um and they they believe that this when you
00:53:56
took that that nylon cord that they found uh that when you would lay it across the neck of some of these victims
00:54:04
that that it would match up perfectly in size yeah I now I don't know the science
00:54:10
on that I don't know what changes with the neck after death occurs or yeah but then when they go to trial they don't
00:54:15
bring this up as the murder murder weapon yeah and another thing because when they go to trial they basically say
00:54:21
we do not have the murder weapon yeah and the other thing that that makes Williams look bad but again something
00:54:28
that they cannot use in in court is that he does fail a polygraph examination um now we're we have to
00:54:36
Circle back to well okay first of all he's a music promoter so we know he's lying uh it's kind of like a lawyer
00:54:44
right how do you know they're lying their mouths are moving their lips are moving yeah so it's I think it's the
00:54:49
same thing the other problem too is that you know these profiles these super cops
00:54:53
as you call them they say that the that the perpetrator would be having um you know killing these victims and taking
00:55:03
them places and take and these these victims would have to go back to Williams's house now one one would think
00:55:10
so right and and the only fiber that matches is this carpet fiber correct that could be in thousands of houses but
00:55:18
therefore it's either a transfer Williams is transferring this carpet from Williams onto the victim or the
00:55:25
victim ends up in William's house now how is it likely William's mother is what she's a teacher mhm and what's his
00:55:33
father is um I think he's a teacher or something I think he is a teacher yes yeah so two
00:55:40
Educators and he has to get these uh these kids into his house uh whether they're murdered beforehand or after
00:55:48
hand and you're going to tell me that they have no suspicion of this doesn't make a lot of logical sense sense to me
00:55:55
you're exactly right you you are exactly right but the but with the fibers okay so we have fibers from a carpet from the
00:56:03
Williams residen MH uh was found to match those that were found on two of the victims additional fibers from the
00:56:11
williams' home their vehicles and their dog were later matched to fibers discovered on other victim yeah but
00:56:18
matched is uh they're using that word pretty Loosely because when they first found the dog fibers they claimed that
00:56:25
it was from a Siberian Husky mhm but then once they got Williams He what does Williams has he he has a German Shepherd
00:56:34
so therefore they said okay well yeah well this pretty much matches a Siberian Husky but we're going to it also matches
00:56:41
a ger German Shepherd well what range are you going I mean it it matches a dog we know it's dog hair close enough I
00:56:50
mean that's what it seems like to me you don't make a you don't make uh a report
00:56:54
that you have dog hairs and it's this breed and then later on say well it's all it could be this other breed as well
00:57:02
well and then you have your four eyewitnesses that say that they saw Nathaniel Carter alive the next day on
00:57:08
the 23rd however there was an eyewitness that said that they had seen Nathaniel Carter holding hands with Wayne Williams
00:57:15
on the night of the 22nd that's the night that police believe he was killed and then dumped in the river and this
00:57:21
eyewitness account is a little fuzzy anyways because I I believe the first account was that he was holding hands
00:57:29
with a white male and then later on that recanted to no it would be Williams Because Williams was a lighter skinned
00:57:37
black man and so it was like oh I kind of got that wrong well again in this case we have tons of eyewitness reports
00:57:45
seeing white man white man with a black man we also have this report coming out too that I saw him with a white man uh
00:57:54
two white men and one of the white men had a a visible scar on his right cheek SL um jaw area and does and this is a
00:58:07
eyewitness account that comes o comes out more and more and more okay Williams has no scar on his right cheek so are
00:58:15
these people just misidentifying everything but I thought he had a some type of birth mark on his right
00:58:22
cheek I I don't know if you look at the picture I don't see it myself that may have been confused for a uh for a scar
00:58:29
um it should be pointed out the vehicle that he's pulled over uh the night of when they believed that Williams was
00:58:35
dumping the body was actually his parents' vehicle he was living with his parents at the time and they had a
00:58:43
station wagon which they recently just received because before that they had a blue vehicle which we have the accounts
00:58:49
the eyewitnesses saying they saw a blue vehicle and what makes this kind of interesting as far as the Williams
00:58:56
scenario goes is during this whole time they have this blue Ford I can't remember what it's called but it's
00:59:02
constantly breaking down so they're constantly getting new rental cars um and because he's like upper
00:59:09
middle class we're not upper middle class I'd just say middle class right uh even so much so that the detectives when
00:59:16
they were like okay now here's our number one suspect even when they went to the house the first thing was oh jeez
00:59:23
this is a nice place it was very shocking for the detectives but all these cars that
00:59:30
they're giving them majority of the time are forwards so all of them would have the same lining in the trunk normally
00:59:37
the same lighting lining and you know where your feet go um but they have records of all that and that was
00:59:45
presented in the trial as well uh unfortunately for Williams a lot of that um does not exonerate him yeah and it
00:59:53
it's interesting because having access to so many different Vehicles probably helped him elude detection for so long I
01:00:00
mean you you get confusing reports all we saw this car oh we saw that car with the next victim and so on and so forth
01:00:06
that goes that helps Williams carry out these crimes and go undetected furthermore you know he's driving his
01:00:13
parents car the night that he's pulled over but he also had his own vehicle as well so we see an additional vehicle
01:00:19
that he had access to yeah and I I and a lot of the stuff that I read they don't
01:00:24
talk much about that it just seems like it's pretty maybe that vehicle isn't working in working order too I mean he
01:00:31
is you know basically doing some freelance photography and VI I think videography as well uh but primarily
01:00:40
he's like a this like kind of a loser music promoter you know a fast talker trying to make uh something big happen
01:00:49
you know talked about how you know we have this group and we want to model them after the Jackson 5
01:00:55
well I got this group too I want to model it after the Beatles the bestselling group of all time so he's
01:01:01
he's kind of a fast talker well speaking of of the the uh the music promoter uh one thing that they noticed after the
01:01:09
case Okay this was after the fact um they noticed that on several telephone polls around where kids were last seen
01:01:17
or had gone missing from uh there was a sign posted on some of these telephone polls and it read I'm going to read it
01:01:23
just as it reads okay the sign said can you sing or play an instrument if you are between the ages if you are between
01:01:31
11 and 21 male or female and you would like to become a professional Entertainer you can apply for positions
01:01:38
with professional recording acts no experience is necessary training is provided all interviews private and free
01:01:46
for more information call between 300 p.m. and 700 p.m. and then it gives a a 10-digit phone number there uh
01:01:54
44 code right which is his parents house I presume and well yeah the the number was for Wayne Williams yeah now here's
01:02:04
another issue with this whole thing though because Wayne Williams claims that yes we were a talent scout we are
01:02:11
looking for talent and that when these murders were taking place that they actually contacted the the special task
01:02:19
force that they set up just to go over these murders and explain to them what they were doing mhm
01:02:25
so again that's something that wasn't brought up on trial either yeah it is strange though how
01:02:31
much the and I'm not saying that he's guilty because he matches the profile presented by the super cops but it is
01:02:38
strange how much he does match that profile right I mean he he's the right age he's the right race uh he has the
01:02:46
right involvement in the community uh some of his freelance work as a photographer was taking school pictures
01:02:53
so he was familiar with those those environments and those that age group of kids um and then the other thing they
01:02:59
said with the possible offer of a short-term job for quick money uh we see these these signs posted on the
01:03:07
telephone polls where it's offering you know if you want to get involved and become a musician or an Entertainer a
01:03:14
professional Entertainer call me at this number yeah that's the problem I have with it is again the number he's using
01:03:22
to have them call is his parents number both being Educators themselves and I just don't think that you know I'm I'm
01:03:29
sure there's a lot of teachers that by the end of the year they're tired of their brat students but uh nobody's
01:03:34
going to stand by why you're going to let your son murder these these kids right so that doesn't make a lot of
01:03:40
sense to me and also you hire these super cops and they just so happen to come up with a profile that it's a young
01:03:47
black male and this fits a better narrative for him because if it is if it is a a racist white guy or a racist
01:03:57
white group then we got a we got a whole another issue right well of course um but that's what I believe that's what
01:04:06
the community wanted it to be in the end and that's why you saw the uprising of these uh civilian groups that were
01:04:13
coming up with their own task force um I I got to give the my hat is off to the super cops I believe that they were on
01:04:21
to something and I believe that in the end the right guy was apprehended now how many of these cases was he involved
01:04:27
in I can't say well technically so what happened is he went to trial they they convicted him of two of the murders two
01:04:35
of the adult murders yeah none of them being children and um zero there I mean they didn't have the the murder weapon
01:04:46
uh I mean almost little to no evidence at all he gets tried for those he's sentenced to two life terms in prison
01:04:55
and then what they do with the other cases they just close them yeah they they closed the majority if not all of
01:05:02
the cases and attributed all the crimes to Wayne Williams but we do have to address the
01:05:09
elephant in the room right Captain there one doesn't have to look very far to see
01:05:16
you can see and hear and read multiple interviews with Wayne Williams where he's proclaiming his innocence to this
01:05:23
very day yeah and normally this is something that I mean this is something that happens by a lot of suspects and
01:05:30
murder cases this one's a little different though because in 1986 Spin Magazine runs an article mhm in 1985
01:05:42
they get a tip from the group Guardian Angels this is a group that was pretty successful they would take um citizens
01:05:50
of normally urban areas they'd be walking in the streets getting information uh and basically keeping
01:05:58
Street crime down to a minimum they contact Spin Magazine saying hey by the way we have some information for you
01:06:05
that the prosecutors got it wrong we think that these murders or at least majority of these murders were um
01:06:13
racially related and they were done by the clue clu clux Clan mhm so Spin Magazine wants to know more about this
01:06:21
they set uh Barry Michael Cooper which did the first uh published story on crack cocaine and Bob
01:06:31
keading um and he did a story on the live a scandal they go down to Atlanta and they investigate these uh claims now
01:06:41
the tip was that the Georgia Bureau of Investigation was actually at the time uh that they were looking into Williams
01:06:50
or before Williams they had this parallel investigation so you had the Child Murders happening but there's a a
01:06:56
parallel investigation into the clan being involved not in all the murders but being involved in one murder with a
01:07:04
small town boy and if that was true they believe that that one murder connected them to
01:07:11
another 14 mhm so where does this all come from it comes from informance the first informant would talk about his
01:07:19
relationship with Charles T Sanders Charles T Sanders was a known Clansman he was uh connected with the New Order
01:07:28
of the clu CLS Clan one day this inform it his name was BJ Jones uh was out with
01:07:36
Charles Sanders and uh Jeter one of the boys that went missing actually hit Sanders car with a go-kart this pissed
01:07:45
off Sanders he said I am going to get that black bastard and I'm going to choke him to death with my and I'm not
01:07:51
going to say it um didn't think much of it the Charles Sanders also was running his mouth to
01:07:59
this informant this BJ Jones basically talking all this stuff about how you know they're going to they're killing
01:08:07
these children he wanted to uh recruit him into the clan because Jones had some experience with bombs and explosives he
01:08:16
just thought that Sanders was just running off of the mouth well once Jeter came up missing
01:08:24
this BJ Jones then submits this stuff to the police saying look I was with I was
01:08:30
with him the day that his car was hit and then uh then he made these remarks the next time that we we uh saw Jeter
01:08:41
and then Jeter shows up dead now when Joe when Jeter shows up dead uh his gal his galal are missing his lower pelvic
01:08:51
area and both feet are also missing yeah he he was the boy that he would have been about 14 or 15 years old he
01:08:58
wouldn't have had a driver's license so it makes sense that he was in a go-kart uh he he hits uh Sanders vehicle and uh
01:09:06
he was the one that disappeared on January 3rd and his body wasn't found until February 5th this was in a wooded
01:09:14
area uh he was last seen in the area of Stewart Lakewood Shopping Center in southwest Atlanta right and we have an
01:09:22
eyewitness claiming that she's saw Jeter get into a car with a tall white male with a scar on his face scar on his neck
01:09:31
I believe yeah yeah scar on his face or his neck that's roughly the the eyewitness testimony well this would
01:09:39
come into play because now we have this parallel investigation into the clan and
01:09:43
now we have somebody to Target we have Charles T Sanders now his family the Sanders family there's at least five
01:09:51
members five known members that are involved in the clu clux Clan multiple charges multiple
01:09:58
convictions to these members and their family everything from child molestation murder assault battery drunk driving
01:10:08
these are just not great people uh also charges with narcotics uh Charles Sanders was a known uh that his business
01:10:16
was narcotics basically so the the main suspect is Charles Sanders the Brother Don Sanders
01:10:24
uh there's also like I believe a Terry Sanders and then we have a Carlton Sanders the Carlton Sanders is the dad
01:10:30
he's a tall white man people would describe him a sunk in jaw but he has a scar on the right side of his neck
01:10:39
Carlon Carlton Sanders was charged with over 35 counts of child molestation he was acquitted on those charges but um
01:10:48
you know this family overall is just connected to some evil stuff so you make threats to somebody saying that you're
01:10:56
going to choke somebody to death um and then they end up dead dead by strangulation but missing body parts
01:11:03
yeah and on top of that as you said the the the father matching the description roughly of what the one eyewitness says
01:11:09
is the last person you know he he had seen he or she had seen him getting into the vehicle with a person matching that
01:11:16
description um now how does this tie them to any of the other victims well remember we had said that um that Jeter
01:11:24
he had frequented a place called The Omni um this would be a place that several of the other victims were have
01:11:30
known to have hung out as well as his body was found 70 ft North from vindver Road uh which runs off of Campton road
01:11:40
which was where two of the earlier victims were found another piece of evidence is that they have actually a
01:11:46
tape recorded phone conversation with Sanders talking about wanting to buy guns and grenades and things like that
01:11:54
because basically they were tapping his phone and all this basically proves is the mo the motive if we kill
01:12:03
these little black children and we can create a race war and and and if that's their motive well
01:12:12
we kind of know that there's that's their motive because they're also collecting weapons at the same point
01:12:17
right and not only collecting weapons but he is urging and encouraging other clan members to arm them eles into to
01:12:25
create these arsenals and and um because he even says that if there were to be a
01:12:31
race war I believe he even puts a date on it and says that this this will happen sometime in 1981 so you better
01:12:37
gear up and be prepared uh because you're going to be involved in this and and one one wonders if they were
01:12:44
preparing to come forward and say hey we're responsible for these murders or if they were being or if they were
01:12:50
prepared that they were going to get busted so some some odd things in the JoJo Bell case was that JoJo Bell runs
01:12:59
in tells his friend hey look there was this white man and a black man they wanted me get in their
01:13:04
car um you know he thought it was a little sketchy he told his friend he ended up leaving that night his friend
01:13:11
saw him missing on the Evening News uh JoJo Bell's work the captain and Peg I believe that's his work or a place
01:13:21
that he would do odd chores for for a little bit of pay or maybe even just dinner they get a call the following
01:13:29
evening and the assistant manager answers the phone and on the other line it says this is Jojo and they're about
01:13:36
to kill me and I'm about dead and they're about to kill me Jerry they're about to kill me then the phone went
01:13:44
dead now again in this report he's he is stating they yeah it's not saying he he's saying they and again it doesn't go
01:13:56
along with what the super cops were saying they were saying that uh this would take somebody that had patience
01:14:03
and had a plan and that the the victims most likely at no time would suspect that they were going to be in
01:14:10
danger and then uh nine days after JoJo um goes missing that t Timothy Hill JoJo's best friend goes missing as well
01:14:21
they get another uh um mysterious phone call to this cap Captain Peg restaurant and this one is
01:14:29
from a woman sounding white and uh somewhere maybe in her 30s she says uh her man is dangerous she says JoJo Bell
01:14:39
was different from the other kids who had been murdered because she liked him and she was trying to have him release
01:14:45
she said do not call the police um because if they did that this person would kill her too now she just
01:14:53
says she's talking more singular her man her man is dangerous and heck for all we know these
01:15:00
could just be prank phone calls um but you know again these are things in the trial of uh Wayne Williams that are not
01:15:11
brought to light at this point the parallel investigation into the clu hooks Clan or just members uh especially
01:15:19
the investigation to the Sanders family it's full-blown all out wiretapping and they have a conversation basically what
01:15:27
they're trying to do is find something that's a little more concrete we know that they're buying weapons we have
01:15:32
these um this informant that said that um he heard Sanders Charles Sanders threatened this boy um Jeter that ends
01:15:43
up missing or went missing and then found dead so they're ramping up this investigation they get this phone call I
01:15:51
could read it to you all but it's in the article the spin article if you want to
01:15:55
check that out uh I'll try to put a link or something in in the show description but basically it's not
01:16:04
Charles Sanders talking it's Terry Sanders and Donald Sanders and back and forth through this conversation Donald
01:16:11
Sanders basically uh you know is trying to what are you up to tonight oh not much okay well I might swing by okay
01:16:19
well I'll see you later and then the one guy goes you're going to go look at for
01:16:22
another bow he's like yeah I'm going to go I'll go look around uh for another kid and scope out some areas now this is
01:16:31
very to me credible and very damaging MH to again is Wayne Williams responsible for all of them I would say no 100%
01:16:41
certain I believe he's not uh is he responsible for a couple of them possibly I I don't know at this point
01:16:50
because this becomes so muddy and murky it's like you don't know what to believe
01:16:56
what is up now and what is down and I'm not really for sure Robert Keele he was the author of
01:17:02
The Riverman book he was also a member of the super cop unit that we had talked about earlier he was involved in the Ted
01:17:09
Bundy investigation later on in the um Green River Killer investigation but he was one of the super cops that they
01:17:17
brought in to be involved in the three objectives that we talked about you know were all of these cases linked now he
01:17:26
did have a a big complaint that he didn't care for when they were being presented their information he did say
01:17:33
that there was a lot lacking uh as far as the information that they were provided to determine if all of these
01:17:40
cases were connected they basically received a a bit of a limited timeline with a
01:17:48
victimology uh talking about the deaths of each one of these victims well we talked about the co toxicology report
01:17:55
not being uh submitted to them as well right that was one of the things the super cops had asked about was the
01:18:02
toxicology because they did believe that some of these or all these victims may have been drugged or alcohol used on
01:18:07
them they couldn't prove that without having the toxicology results and furthermore actually Robert keple
01:18:13
believes that maybe that a toxicology wouldn't have even been done on some of these cases furthermore he goes on to
01:18:20
say that in one of the cases the one that I had brought up that I thought was probably not connected but then the
01:18:26
police later say well there's fibers that match some of these other victims uh we had talked about the the victim
01:18:33
that was found uh in a garage with his with his pockets pulled out right um and one thing that Keele had asked in this
01:18:41
situation was well can we see we need to be able to see these fibers we need to have uh the the actual reports on these
01:18:52
fibers because one thing that the super cops had questioned were is there a chance that these fibers are so generic
01:19:00
that anybody could have them in their homes or anybody could have them in their cars and the captain brought up
01:19:05
one in one thing that was really interesting earlier about uh Wayne Williams's parents having multiple
01:19:11
Vehicles whether it be rentals or because they were replacing vehicles or whatnot and we know Wayne Williams drove
01:19:17
a separate vehicle as well um we're seeing all these fibers and they're saying that those are all linked but we
01:19:23
also talking about multiple Vehicles well also what how are they linked I mean like everything with DNA or Fiber
01:19:30
analysis it's always linked to a percentage oh one out of a 100 I mean if you break down what the percentage is if
01:19:38
if it's these fibers are found in 25% of the homes in Atlanta well now you got this huge uh Spectrum um but basically
01:19:49
the other conclusion too is that the you know the vice president at the time uh pushes the prosecution and and and
01:19:56
Atlanta's police force pushes the prosecution saying if you're not going to rush this trial uh with Wayne
01:20:03
Williams we're going to replace you and then then the defense is thrown under the bus because not only are we going to
01:20:09
be tried for these two murders that William Williams then gets found guilty of but we're going to allow information
01:20:17
into all these other deaths so you're talking about thousands and thousands of pieces of evidence on a trial that's
01:20:23
going to be rushed so um because of the spin article it was reopened uh then it was closed and they
01:20:31
put him back in his box now I I think the point of all this is I don't know if this I'm not sitting here saying well it
01:20:40
has to be this Charles T Sanders but if you have this investigation you know it seems like
01:20:47
sometimes uh law enforcement government or whatever it is they're not interested
01:20:52
in the truth you know they're just try they're trying to mop up this bad problem you know but they're mopping it
01:21:00
up with a wet mop right you know you're just pushing the water around and at the
01:21:05
end of the day if he if if Wayne Williams didn't do this then you got an innocent man sitting imprisoned mhm
01:21:12
right so that that's the first flaw but also um the community has a right to know and the parents of the victims and
01:21:21
majority of them now after these articles like this after these other informants come out the parents of the
01:21:29
victim say look we don't buy this Wayne Williams Theory anymore and it's not fair to them for them to not ever know
01:21:36
the truth but the truth of the matter is that most of the time law enforcement government officials the vice president
01:21:45
of United States they don't give a [ __ ] about you and it's not because you're white and it's not because you're black
01:21:51
it's because you're poor mhm so even if this happened to a group of poor white kids it' be the same thing
01:22:00
as a poverty thing and I think uh it's it's a shame that we're not any I don't think we're anywhere
01:22:08
further from solving this thing than they were in 1981 well I mean okay so here's the
01:22:16
thing think about this so too we have Robert Keele who who was pointing out clear clear holes in the investigation
01:22:24
and yet this Police Department this police force flew in all these super cops from different states and different
01:22:30
cities and paid them and put them up in in nice hotels and asked them to stay in
01:22:35
their city for a handful of days and and meanwhile they present them with with Swiss chees likee information yeah or
01:22:43
they put their you know it's like hey uh fight this fight oh by the way we're going to put your hands behind your back
01:22:48
yeah and they're they're like okay well if the super cops are willing to put their stamp on it that 20 23 out of 27
01:22:53
murders are connected then all we got to do is find the guy that does the next murder and if we can link him to more
01:22:58
than one then we probably found our guy right the other interesting thing here too is they presented a completely
01:23:06
different profile than what the public was already working off of the public was working off the profile that it was
01:23:14
a white supremist or it was a group of white supremist right and when when these people were when these super cops
01:23:20
were flown into Atlanta and paid to be there and they offered this very extensive profile that goes against
01:23:28
everything that was already the the original thought well also then they're told that we don't want to release that
01:23:34
profile why did they not want to release that profile did the Atlanta police force know something that they did not
01:23:40
present to the super cops um right yeah yeah you know well that's the thing is you can only present uh your profile of
01:23:49
the evidence that of what you are given now the the apprehensive the plan for apprehension it did lead to Wayne
01:23:57
Williams do I believe that he was involved in some of these deaths yes I do because there are there are some
01:24:03
things you know like the carpet fibers from his home uh I think that those are going to be different than the the
01:24:09
fibers that we talk about from the vehicles well there's it's very flimsy evidence at best but but the the if you
01:24:17
do dive into the the fiber evidence it it is more likely it points into the direction of him but that is on just a
01:24:28
couple of them yeah there well and then one of the victims there was two human hairs found on them and they have tested
01:24:34
those since then and they cannot rule out Wayne Williams on that one particular victim yeah that that one's
01:24:40
weird though because um they actually believed initially when they found that th that those two hairs were of a
01:24:48
Caucasian male but then they found out well actually it's a very small percent that
01:24:55
would also match with an African male right and that very small percentage is like 2% you're you're exactly right it
01:25:02
it would rule out like 97 or 98% of African males males but Wayne Williams falls into that 2% to that very small
01:25:12
percentage and I it's maybe it's a little more than 2% but it's not it's not 5% is it possible though that that
01:25:20
part of the reason that this case was so tough and that why we saw 28 victims or
01:25:25
that that there were two killers working in a similar area um probably killing with two completely different MOS but
01:25:34
this would definitely you would definitely think this would throw the police off and the other thing that
01:25:38
makes it hard to believe that Wayne Williams would have done all this we're talking about 27 or 28 victims super
01:25:44
cops say maybe 23 of them that's a lot of victims in like a 24mon time period That's I mean that's a lot of rap rapid
01:25:52
action I mean you you almost would be doing nothing other than killing and covering up the crimes you know in
01:26:00
certain situations well and I think sometimes knowledge hurts you I think Mo most of the time knowledge helps you I
01:26:06
think in this case it kind of hurts people because they do this thing where they go oh well the killer the killer
01:26:12
must be reading the paper the killer must be following what the cops are doing because now the Killer is throwing
01:26:18
the bodies into the river and there's a possibility if they aren't linked if less of them are linked right maybe
01:26:26
there's only three or four that are the same then you know or or maybe just the ones that were found in the river are
01:26:34
connected MH it necessarily doesn't mean it's the same person and then just in this case with the whole um the clue
01:26:43
clux clan um connection yes you made these threats and maybe uh Charles Sanders carried out
01:26:52
out these threats on one victim that just happened to know three or four of the other victims right but it is very
01:27:00
possible now that's when you just get into this crazy world but no so it's very possible that Wayne Williams is
01:27:06
responsible for two of them and then this Sanders guy is responsible for one or two of them and then there's just
01:27:13
somebody else uh you know all this things come out about the KKK afterwards there were a couple things that did come
01:27:20
out against Wayne Williams after the fact uh one being that a police officer would later say that at one of the crime
01:27:27
scenes Wayne Williams had stopped by uh and offer to photograph the body for the
01:27:34
medical examiner's office that he was a freelance photographer and that he would
01:27:38
do this to help out with the investigation there's it's also suspected that he was that he um may
01:27:45
have signed up to try to help search for one of the victims and then in a third case there was an eyewitness that had
01:27:52
reported seeing Wayne Williams in his vehicle attending uh the funeral of one of the victims yeah that's very odd uh
01:28:01
again I mean I think uh it's weird because if you watch an interview with Wayne Williams he doesn't seem like that
01:28:08
bad of a guy he just seems very uh slick you know he seems like uh yeah he's slippery isn't he yeah well he seems
01:28:15
like you know he's you know he's hot [ __ ] or something but uh this whole case in general is frustrating cuz won uh the
01:28:23
victims they didn't they didn't get to live um a meaningful life they didn't get the opportunity to do something
01:28:30
productive with their life um and the other sad thing is that there's no real answers I mean you have a guy behind
01:28:38
bars but there's no real answers and we we really need to start pushing for the you know truth that's what we should
01:28:47
push you know it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong you know uh you know just
01:28:53
find the truth and while the captain and I might not agree on if Wayne Williams was connected or if he was responsible
01:29:00
or how many of these murders he was responsible for I think one thing we can agree that we uh that one thing we do
01:29:07
agree on is that uh it was irresponsible of law enforcement to close all of those
01:29:13
other cases just because you had a conviction on two of them well what that what the law enforcement did was they
01:29:19
told the parents of those victims and the families of those victims you are nothing more than a number that's the
01:29:26
statement that they made to me and I and I think that's uhu absolutely wrong because white or black it doesn't matter
01:29:35
and and frankly I get tired of people going around and identifying as such I'm a white male or I'm a black male or
01:29:42
female or whatever at the end of the day we are a human race and we should start
01:29:48
acting like it thank you Captain I'm so inspired right now oh right I'm just I'm
01:29:55
I just sometimes these cases just piss me off and and I try to just be light and Airy but God it pisses me off well
01:30:03
you want to hear something else that's going to piss you off my my we have to do a show next week my recommended
01:30:09
reading for this week Captain's going to hate this I'm going to recommend a book
01:30:12
that I recommended before Oh my God just do your job Yep this is one that I recommended way back when probably on
01:30:19
our third or fourth episode but reason why I'm recommending it again is because it is on my very short list of True
01:30:25
Crime books that I keep returning to that that multiple times in my lifetime I've read this thing four times and I
01:30:31
went back to it when we started looking into this case for this week and that is
01:30:36
by the author and detective Robert Keele that we talked about in this case uh and
01:30:41
his book The River Man Ted Bundy and I hunt for the Green River Killer the reason why I keep going back to this
01:30:46
book is because it's it's by an investigator one that was involved in some of the biggest most notorious
01:30:52
crimes in this country uh it involved the Ted Bundy case it involved the Green River case he was also one of the super
01:31:00
cops in this case and it discusses the uh the Michigan the Oakland County Child Murders as well um this is one of my
01:31:09
favorite true crime books of all time you can pick it up by going to our website true Crim garage.com click on
01:31:14
the recommended page and look for the River Band Ted Bundy and I hunt for the Green River Killer and you can get
01:31:20
anything through Amazon so go to True Crime garage.com click on our Amazon Banner you can buy anything and they
01:31:27
kick back a little love no extra cost to you uh if you saw my Instagram uh video
01:31:33
of making the trailers and making the music for the show you would have seen my beautiful beautiful divers helmet and
01:31:41
that was picked up through Amazon and a big thank you and a big I like your jib to all the listeners the love in the
01:31:49
last year has been amazing thanks for telling a friend thanks for the support uh and big exciting things coming up for
01:31:57
the garage that's right and until next time be good be kind and don't live and be a
01:32:04
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