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Heat. Heat. [Music] [Applause] [Applause] Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever
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you are, whatever you are doing, thanks for listening. I'm your host, Nick. And with me as always, a man that loves you
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guys more than Kanye loves Kanye. Jay-Z, you never call me, bro. Call me, bro. And I tell you, it's good to be seen and
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it's good to see you. >> Beer of the week. It's getting cold outside, so let's drink some good winter
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beer. Right. This week we have Okco Nitro. Love it, love it, love it. Garage grade four and a quarter,
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five bottle caps. This is a truly great wintertime beer because it warms the bones and it warms the soul, my friend.
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>> That's fun to say. >> That's right. Okco Cocoa Nitro is an Imperial Double Stout by River City
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Brewing in Spokane, Washington. >> This smooth, creamy, full body stout is brought to us by our very best garage
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friends. First up, we have Oh, yeah. Captain, this is one of my favorite people, Kelly in Louisville, Kentucky.
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Listen closely to what Kelly has to say. Mhm. She says, "I love your show and it's a great listen." while she prepares
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boring legal documents. >> Yeah. >> The next time we do an Indiana case, she highly recommends seeking out something
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from Three Floyd's Brewery. She likes Yum Yum and Gumball Head. Kelly. >> Kelly, you are absolutely spot on. I am
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on Yum. I'm on Untapped. Look me up of my handle, of course, is True Crime Garage.
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>> True. That That's big news. You're dropping that now. >> The veil is dropping. Yes, if anyone
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wants to look me up on there and send me a friend request, go for it and I may consider it. But if you are my friend on
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there, you will see that I have graded Gumball Head a very strong five out of five. Gumball Head is an American pale
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wheat ale and Three Floyds is a very cool brewer. This is a ve there's a very nice grocery store in Clintonville which
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is near my neighborhood and once in a while they get gumball head in and they sell it limit two 12 oz bottles per
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person and I think it's like $3 a bottle and I always buy two. In fact, one time
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I bought two and then I went outside to my car. I sat in my car for like 20 minutes. I took my hat off and I went
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back in and I bought two more. >> Did the guy say I recognize your jib? >> Get out of line, sir. You've already
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bought two. Next up, we have Rebecca in Fagatville, Arizona. Let's go down under
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and say hi to Blair in Waga Waga, New South Wales, Australia. Next, we have King Kenny in Pensacola, Florida. All
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hail the king. Also, thanks to Robert down in Georgetown, Texas. >> Mhm. >> How about a fellow Buckeye captain? We
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have Kristen in Parisburg, Ohio. And last but not least, we have Gareth in South Yorkshire, United Kingdom. And
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Gareth says, "Have a beer on me." and he recommends a beer from Black Sheep Brewery if we can get a hold of it.
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Gareth loves the show. He says, "We have good quality production." Well, you can
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thank the captain for that one. >> That's why that's why you can't fire me. >> That's right. And he says, "We have good
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in-depth information and good banner." And I'll go ahead and take most of the credit for that stuff. So, I like to do
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a mental everyone get in the line and stick your hand up and I'll do a running high five real quick. So, thank you,
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Kelly, Rebecca, Blair, King, Kenny, Robert, Kristen, and Gareth for buying us around for this week's show. And if
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you'd like to support the beer fund and fuel the garage, just go to trueimegrage.com
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and click on the donate button. And like always, we like your jib. And we're a little rowdy today because it is season
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3 finale. >> And I've had four coffees. >> Four coffees and 10 beers. And let's get
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right to it. >> That's right. Dump out your coffee. Gather around, grab a chair, grab a
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six-pack of beers, and let's talk some true crime. This is True Crime Garage and this is the case of the Ted murders.
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[Music] Oh, [Music] [Music] it was October of 1974. I was a pharmacy student at the
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University of Utah in Salt Lake City. I was at a city park waiting for a bus to take me back up to campus. The bus was
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late. I was getting frustrated. And then this Tanville wagon drove by very slowly. Q driver kind of looked at me as
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we went past. And then he stopped and backed up and leaned over and rolled down the passenger window and asked me
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where I was going. I told him I was going up to the U. And he said, "Me, too. Hop in." So I opened the door and
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got in. The first thing that I noticed was the inside passenger door handle was missing
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and he leaned over and pulled the door shut. But I wasn't alarmed. I figured college kid, college car things fall
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off. He looked like a college student. He was dressed nice, had a green pullover
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sweater on, nice slacks, light-hearted. We just had the normal conversation that strangers would have.
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I told him, "My name's Rhonda and I'm a pharmacy student. What are you studying?" He told me his name was Ted
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and he was a law student. In a just a couple of blocks, he turned a way that wasn't the normal route to the
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university. And I asked him about that and he was very polite and asked my permission if it would be all right if
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he took a little detour. He told me I had to run an errand up by the zoo and I told him that would be fine. I didn't
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care. I thought I would still be home faster than if I had waited for the bus. And then we went right on past the zoo.
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And I said, "Hey, I thought we were taking me to the zoo." and he said, "No." I said, "Near the zoo. That road
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goes over the hill and drops down into Parley's Canyon, which is the main highway back into the city.
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Nothing's gone off. We're just having fun." We get to the bottom of that canyon and we should have turned right
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to go towards campus. And instead, he turned left and started driving up another canyon. And as he's driving,
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he's kind of looking at parking places and side roads. the conversation started to go weird then because he stopped
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talking to me and I'm still trying to make idle conversation and and I'm thinking that he's probably looking for
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a place to pull off in the park and wants to make out and I don't know him and I'm not really a make out person but
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he's still a cute law student and I don't want to offend him and I don't want to embarrass myself.
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So, I'm thinking of how do I get out of this situation and then he pulled into a parking place
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and and parked the car and turned it off. And then he turned into the car seat so
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he's kind of facing me and he leaned in really close. I thought he was going to kiss me. Instead, he said very quietly,
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"You know what? I'm going to kill you. I'm going to kill you. and he put his hands on my throat and
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started squeezing. My first thought was has to be some kind of a joke. This guy's got a weirdest
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sense of humor. But that was just maybe a fraction of a second because I realized he was squeezing too tightly.
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He was serious and I was in trouble and there's no door handle. We had a little small battle in the car,
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but I went unconscious. I did as much of a fight as you can put up when you're running out of air.
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I'm going to die. [Music] Thought I was going to die right there in the car, but he had other other
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plans. [Music] [Music] 1974 in the great state of Washington. We have a situation here. Big- time
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situation. Women are being attacked, some are disappearing, and some are found dead. We have about six or seven
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women ranging in age from 18 to 22 years old who are attacked. Now, these are not
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all the same deal here. One woman is attacked in her sleep. She's sleeping in a house that she shares with several
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other roommates. She's attacked and abducted from her bed. And this is in the uh University of Washington area.
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There's a 19-year-old that disappears from the Evergreen State College, an 18-year-old that disappears from Central
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Washington State College campus one night in April 74. And then there's a 22-year-old uh her name is Kathy Parks.
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She disappears from Oregon State University in Corvalis, Oregon. So just to mention a few of them. So these these
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young women are disappearing from different college campuses and other areas and no one really suspects that
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these things are connected, right? >> Some young adults change gears on a dime and move away. So, you know, some of
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these people, they're not really missing right away, right? And maybe there's really not a lot of great explanations
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for this, but they are disappearing. And now there are a few detectives that do think that these cases could be
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connected or something bigger is going on here, >> something being related. >> But of course, no one is going to
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connect the Kathy Parks disappearance from Oregon State. But that is all going to change very quickly here because
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we're going to talk about a place called Lake Seamish. All right, the Lake Seamish is a beautiful state park
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located 8 miles east of Seattle and King County. It's a big park. It's about five
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It's 512 acres. Uh, and it has quite a bit of waterfront access with boat launches and of course hiking and
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picnicking. Uh, and when you look up Lake Seamish on Wikipedia, the they list three major events as occurring at Lake
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Samameish. Now, the first one they list is a Pirates versus Vikings massive water balloon fight, which is held
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annually. Sounds like a lot of fun. Uh, and then not a lot of fun for the other events because the next event they list
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is wife killer Randy Roth drowned his fourth wife Cynthia at Lake Samameish. >> And then uh this event um so continuing
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on back to 1974 as said Lake Seamish is a beautiful state park with all of that fresh water and of course it's going to
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be very busy in the warm months of summer with plenty of young adults looking for fun in the sun. But July
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14th, 1974, the state park was extremely busy. They estimate that there were about 40,000 to 50,000 people there that
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day. Now, part of that was due to several large businesses holding their company picnic picnics on that Sunday
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afternoon, but most of that is because of the great weather. It was 90 degree temperature that day, plenty of
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sunshine. So, around noon, a young man described as about 25 years of age with blondish hair approached a
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pretty 22year-old woman. The woman's name is Mary Osmer. Uh she was over in a grassy area. This is near one of those
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company picnics that were going on, >> right? >> The stranger said hi and asked Mary for
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her help. He was wearing blue jeans, a white t-shirt, and his arm was in a sling. He is asking for help with his
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sailboat. He needs to load it onto his car, but of course he's unable to because of his arm,
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>> right? And to get a visual, I mean, think about Silence of the Lambs when Buffalo Bill uh was moving that um couch
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and he asked the lady for help. So >> So she agrees to go help him. He he seems like somebody that seems like a
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good person and might be in need of help. And they walk over together to his vehicle.
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>> Oh, and he has a bum arm, right? So, and he's got a little VW bug. Uh, but the
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problem here is she immediately notices, Mary notices that there's no sailboat. And, uh, he says, "Well, the sailboat
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>> Well, and how many bugs could tow a sailboat?" >> Well, >> depends on how big the boat is.
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>> It's a small boat that you he wants to load it up on top of the vehicle. >> Oh, okay. More like a kayak.
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>> Yeah. Okay. So he says that, you know, the boat is it's up at my parents place,
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which is we just got to drive up the hill here and pick it up. And she she's a little worried about this situation.
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Had the boat been there, she probably would have helped the guy, >> right? >> Um but because the boat's not there,
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she's not very eager to leave the group that she's with. And she mentions that she's already running late. She's she's
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supposed to be meeting her parents around uh 12 12:20 that day. And so she's already running late for that. So
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she kind of politely backs out of helping the man. And the man, she says, is polite. And he thanks her and
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apologizes that the boat wasn't right there with the vehicle. And he even walks her about halfway back to that
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grassy area where they were. Um, this VW Bug's going to become very important as
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we will see later. Um, but another of the young adults that was there that day enjoying the beautiful weather was
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23-year-old Janice Aught. Uh, she's a thin, petite, 5 foot tall with long, straight blonde hair.
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>> Mhm. >> Um, she rode to the lake that day by herself. Uh, and she rode her bike. She
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had a yellow tiger 10-speed bike. Uh, and at the beach she was she was once she was there, you know, she gets there,
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gets her things out, puts her bike away, and she goes down to the beach area. They have plenty of waterfront as we had
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mentioned, and she's going to throw out her towel and strip down to the bikini and start sunning, you know, like
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everybody else is doing on that 90° day, >> sunbathing, right? Mhm. So about this
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time, a uh stranger, now described as wearing white shoes, a white t-shirt, and shorts, but again, his arm is in a
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sling, walks to the beach, and he goes up to Janisat. >> He's probably wearing jorts.
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>> He asks if she would help him load his sailboat, but this time he immediately
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states that the boat is not at the vehicle. It's at his parents house, which is up the hill in Isiqua. Now the
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girl says, "Janice," she says, >> "Real quick though, isn't this how it normally happens though when somebody
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asks for a favor?" Like it always turns it always turns into something bigger. >> Yeah, it's a small favor at first.
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>> I just need you to help me get this boat on to my car. >> All you got to do is lift it up and then
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all of a sudden there's all these different obstacles. >> But by the way, we got to go to my
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parents house and then yeah, it's going to be in the basement. So we got to get out of the basement.
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>> And Janice is very nice. You know, she says, "Well, I'm from Isiqua, so no big
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deal. I will help you uh with this boat. I understand we're going to have to take
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your vehicle and drive up the hill and and find the the >> And this is a h handsome gent, right?
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>> Uh yeah. Well, actually, and that's exactly what Mary Osamer says, the the first woman that was approached that we
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know of. She's she commented that he was uh she found him to be attractive and that's why he she agreed to help him.
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>> I guess ugly people don't get helped according to Mary. Um >> sorry, >> sorry about that.
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Nobody helps me with anything. Nobody's held a door for me ever. >> You got a nice jib. Don't worry about
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it. >> So Janice agrees to help this young man. And um she does state, you know, I rode
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my bicycle to the beach. So if we're going to take your car somewhere, I'm hoping that I can your you know, put the
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bike in your car or we have a way to >> I'm sorry. I was just thinking about that stupid movie. You know,
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>> 40-year-old version. >> Yeah. Do you got a big trunk? cuz I'm going to put my bike in it.
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>> Mhm. >> Sorry, it's insensitive. >> Now, the park is extremely busy that day, right?
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>> Right. >> 40,000 maybe small city basically. >> Yeah. That's a ton of people there that
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day and so you can imagine that the beach is a little crowded and Janice being a very attractive young woman
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wearing a bikini sitting there sunbathing. Of course, some people are going going to take notice to this. And
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because the beach is so crowded, there are people sitting and lying rather close to one another. So some of the
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other people on the beach, they overhear this conversation and they're witnessing, you know, this interaction
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between these two strangers. And during this interaction, several people, you know, kind of easedropping notice that
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they the two introduce one another and, you know, she says, "My name is Janice."
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And the stranger says, "Uh, my name is Ted." um and then ask her for the help. Well, about 12:30, so this is very
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quickly after this strange man approached Mary. You know, this is within 15 to 20 minutes after she had
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denied him the help of the sailboat. And now he's already moved on to the next woman and he's he's receiving help from
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her seemingly because she's getting up collecting her belongings. She's asked about her bicycle. And now about 12:30,
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Mary Osmer, she sees the man that she spoke to, uh, who introduced himself as Ted to Janice,
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>> right? >> She sees the two of them walking together and Janice has her bicycle with
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her. >> Right >> now, they go off and we don't we don't know where they go. Uh to this date, we
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still don't exactly know where they went, but there are a few things that we would later be able to surmise what
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probably took place. This Ted person took Janice somewhere and in the course of of getting there or
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once there, he unleashed a sneak attack on her. Uh probably using a crowbar to strike her over the head,
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>> right? And then he would tie her up, uh maybe even use handcuffs, but he was able to control her in a way that he
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would be >> physically >> leaving her uh alive. Whether she's unconscious or or just knocked out or or
00:19:23
or bound, right, >> and and held captive somewhere, we don't know. But we do know that he left her
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somewhere and she was alive when this took place. Now, around 3:00 this afternoon, so we're just talking about 2
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and 1/2 hours later, Diane Watson is near a concession stand. This is one that is closest to an east.
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They have, you know, multiple restrooms at this uh park and this is closest to one of the eastern restrooms. Now, she
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notices another young woman. This is Denise Nassand. Now, Denise is at the beach with her boyfriend and another
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couple. Uh Diane also notices a young man in his mid20s and this young man is staring at her and this is like an
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intense stare. You know, the kind of stare that you you not only notice it, but you can kind of feel it.
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>> Um >> I don't get those. >> Seconds later, the young man is asking Diane if she would help him load his
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sailboat onto his car. Now, Diane would later say that the man sounded embarrassed, uh, probably because he
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was, you know, a man asking a woman for help, but he he did also have his arm in
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the sling. Now, Diane does decline helping the man. At approximately 400 p.m., another young woman is approached
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by the stranger with wearing the arm sling. This time, he asked Lorie Adams if she would help him launch his boat.
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You know, he's changing his what he, you know, his needs now. would you help me launch the boat? And now she quickly
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declines. >> Well, he he already got the boat. Now he's bring it back. He has to launch it.
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>> At 4:30, this man approaches 18year-old. She's 5'4 in tall. This Denise Nassinhu.
00:21:08
>> Now, Denise had an argument with her boyfriend earlier. She was there with her boyfriend and another couple. And
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she's now off sitting by herself. This is near that East concession stand that we spoke of. Denise leaves with the
00:21:22
young man that approached her. This is witnessed by a Seattle Police Department employee. So, this is these are all
00:21:28
things that we know happened, >> right? But but Denise was there with her boyfriend.
00:21:34
>> Correct. >> And so they they get in a fight because, you know, men are stupid and we ruin fun
00:21:39
events. >> Well, and they're also young people, you know, young people argue about nothing
00:21:44
sometimes. >> Yeah. And then uh I don't know anything about arguing about nothing. I don't
00:21:49
know what you're talking about. Um, so then she gets in a fight with her boyfriend and then she's left with this
00:21:56
uh Ted guy. >> Yeah. Yeah. So earlier this Diane, she noticed the guy that approached her and
00:22:02
um she sees this other young woman sitting over by that East concession stand. Now this is when uh another this
00:22:11
is the Seattle Police Department employee notices the young man going up to Denise and sees the two of them
00:22:18
leaving together. They're leaving the area together. Now, Denise is never seen alive again after this situation.
00:22:25
>> So, what we know now is that these two women both disappeared. Both of them about the same age. And we know that
00:22:33
this quote unquote Ted person who is walking around introducing himself as Ted, asking for help with his sailboat.
00:22:40
He's approached multiple women um time out and time again and he's received two offers for help and both of the young
00:22:50
ladies that help him, they're not going to be seen again the rest of that day or
00:22:54
or ever again live. What we can figure out here is this TED person had taken Janice somewhere and kept her somewhere
00:23:01
alive, probably knocked out, probably bound, and then later he brought Denise to the same location. What took place
00:23:09
after this is a little uncertain, but we know we will know from later attacks and
00:23:16
later things that we will see in the case of the Ted murders that he probably attacked both of them and terrorized
00:23:23
them together and separately. Uh this was a person that would would would rape women as he terrorized them. And we have
00:23:33
a situation here where we now have two people being held captive and being terrorized together. One of them is
00:23:41
going to witness the other one being killed right in front of them, >> right? >> And that in itself is some kind of form
00:23:49
of mental torture. >> I mean, that's horrific. >> Well, and you're talking about a satist
00:23:54
of the highest level here. um someone that that extremely enjoys the the panic and the terror uh that he's instilling
00:24:02
into others. >> Oh yeah. And the control >> for days and days the people in the community, the law enforcement, they are
00:24:10
looking for these two young women. They they've gone missing. They've disappeared. Now, it is not until
00:24:16
September of 74, this is, you know, roughly less than two months later, a hunter stumbles upon some human remains.
00:24:24
This is about a mile from the lake Samish. Uh the FBI is called in for these to investigate and the FBI the FBI
00:24:35
would spend days and days there. I I believe they spent like nine or 10 days there searching the area.
00:24:41
>> Mhm. >> And what they end up coming up with in the end is that they find most of the
00:24:47
bones of the two victims. This being the two women that young women that were missing. Um, they do not find Janice's
00:24:55
skull, uh, but they find most of her her remains. Uh, they find women's clothing
00:25:01
that is unrelated to the two victims. And they also find some bones of an unknown female victim. And of course,
00:25:09
they find a crowbar. And that's why I had suggested earlier that maybe a crowbar was used in an attack to knock
00:25:16
out the the women or to or to beat the women, >> right? But this will all go back to
00:25:20
those earlier investigations of the disappearing women from the different campuses, college campuses. And this is
00:25:27
going to lead to something here. And it's going to give the police a break, so to speak. And it's also going to give
00:25:35
the community, it's going to open up the eyes of the people in the community. >> And we'll get into that right after this
00:25:40
beer break. And we're back. Cheers, everybody. >> Cheers. So, we're talking about the Ted
00:25:45
murders and how does this whole Lake Shemamish thing fall into place with what we were talking about earlier.
00:25:51
Well, we have a community where we have different young women being attacked. Some of them are disappearing from
00:25:57
campuses around the area and as we said, the community doesn't really know that there's something going on here where
00:26:04
there's links to these different cases. However, the eyes are opened after this attack at Lake Samameish on that day
00:26:12
where there's 40 to 50,000 people and two beautiful young women go missing and they're missing for days and days and
00:26:19
weeks and weeks and about 2 months later their their remains are found by the FBI.
00:26:24
>> Yeah. Again, a lot of people you have two pretty ladies that go missing and but we have this odd character that was
00:26:31
seen talking to the ladies >> and that's what's interesting about this. We we we now have a community that
00:26:36
knows something is going on. And we know that we have someone that is capable of
00:26:42
not only killing people, but capable of taking two women at the same place at the same time and and pulling that off
00:26:51
somehow. But on top of that, we had these detectives that thought that there might be something going on, but they
00:26:58
have no leads, right, Captain? They have nothing to go on because in most of these cases there's either no witnesses
00:27:04
or there's no bodies that are being found. And now >> well until the yeah until the lake um
00:27:12
>> now we have remains that have been found and on top of that we have witnesses and
00:27:17
we have something for the police to work with. We have a lead here. Now somebody
00:27:21
is going around a young man that appears to be in his mid20s maybe 25 and they have several descriptions of him. Mhm.
00:27:29
>> He's going around and he's talking to multiple women. These are descriptions that are that are coming forth from
00:27:34
women that were present that day as well as onlookers and other beachgoers and people that were at the park that saw
00:27:40
this person going up to these different women. >> And not only that, but you also have
00:27:45
women that actually talked to him, talked to this man named Ted. They're going to help this man. So, you're going
00:27:51
to get a better eyewitness account of those events than just some onlooker that saw this guy from 50 feet away.
00:27:58
>> And the police do something very interesting here. Um, they do a call to action to the community. And because
00:28:04
they realize that there are so many people at the park that day and they have a couple bits of information, they
00:28:11
have this one thing where the guy is using the name Ted. Well, that very well could be a fake name. Uh, you actually I
00:28:17
would assume that it would be a fake name. And I believe that they probably did too as well. Um, but
00:28:22
>> there's nothing wrong with fake names. >> But on top of that, they have a vehicle
00:28:27
description from Mary Osmer who walked over to the vehicle and said, "No, I can't help you." Um, and she saw this
00:28:34
same guy. She saw him walking off with Janice Aught just a half an hour later. >> Yeah. And the vehicle is a VW bug, but
00:28:43
it odd color tan. Well, it it some people call it a tan and other times it's been referred to as a bronze color.
00:28:51
Um, so >> still odd though. I mean, that's not the typical when I think VW Bug, I'm
00:28:57
thinking red or yellow. >> Yellow for some reason. Uh, but what the police do is they're going to reach out
00:29:04
to everybody in the community using uh their media sources and they're going to say, "You know what? We want anybody
00:29:09
that took photos that day, you know, maybe you saw something and you have something to report, but if you didn't
00:29:15
see anything and you happen to take a bunch of photos that day, bring us all of your photos and we would like to look
00:29:20
through them. Why? Because what they're trying to see here is they they know what kind of vehicle they're looking for
00:29:26
and they know roughly where the vehicle was parked. So, they want to they're going to scour through all these
00:29:31
pictures and they're going to try to see if they can spot the vehicle because they're hoping maybe they can get a
00:29:37
picture of the man standing near the vehicle. >> Yeah. Or the license plate. >> Exactly.
00:29:43
But the other thing that we're going to have here in the investigation is we are
00:29:48
learning about body dumping. And this is the FBI as well. And what they learned from this situation is that in slightly
00:29:55
less than two months time, the bodies that had been dumped there, they had not only fully decomposed to that of
00:30:02
skeleton remains, but the man calling himself also had one other thing on his side. Animals had scattered the remains
00:30:09
all over the hillside. And some of this was pretty good distances as well. Remember, we said it took them over a
00:30:15
week to find everything that they they ended up compiling at the end. And that ended up being the remains of two of I'm
00:30:21
sorry, two identified persons, one ident unidentified victim as well as the possible murder weapon, the crowbar,
00:30:30
right? Not full remains of a third victim, but you know, just I think fragments. It was, you know, but then
00:30:37
one of the victims was missing the skull, which is very odd as well. >> Mhm. But I wonder if the cops I wonder
00:30:44
if the FBI just assumed that because these victims were found in the wilderness if maybe that animal just
00:30:52
went off with it. I mean, I know that's a little gory and graphic, but >> that was their they they had actually
00:30:59
figured that out. Um they there were probably markings on some of the bones that would indicate such activity taking
00:31:06
place. And they really kind of just surmised that whoever dumped them just left the bodies there and walked away
00:31:12
from them and whatever had happened to the bodies during the de >> decomposition process was that animals
00:31:19
had scattered these pieces uh throughout the hillside. The other interesting thing to me is that the law enforcement,
00:31:27
FBI or the cops, they also, you know, not only looking through these pictures hoping to get license plate or a visual
00:31:34
of this man. Um, they also were compiling a list of guys named Ted >> and not just assuming again that if uh
00:31:44
that this you know perpetrator used a alias. Well, and that's where the investigation took a big spin where
00:31:53
before they were just investigating these random attacks that were taking place at different college campuses. But
00:31:59
the reason that they're able to make a link to this Lake Samish is that the the victimology here. You have victims that
00:32:06
they look similar. They're all of the same age. They're college age girls. They're young, attractive women. This
00:32:13
would be this person's victim type. And so that's why they end up starting to call this case the Ted murders because
00:32:21
that's the only thing they have to go off of is this person introducing himself as Ted. And at the time too we
00:32:28
have to discuss, you know, we have the FBI and we have persons involved in the FBI that are used to investigating these
00:32:35
type of cases, these serial murder cases. And one thing they start discussing amongst themselves is why
00:32:43
would this individual, if he is linked to these attacks at Lake Seamish, why would he jump make the leap from these
00:32:52
seemingly very successful murders that he's done where there's no witnesses, where there may not even be a body
00:32:59
found, there's no evidence, no leads. Here's someone that seems to be very good at what they're doing. And now all
00:33:05
of a sudden he's putting himself and doing this double event which is extremely risky behavior.
00:33:12
>> Yeah. Like we said 40 to 50,000 people and then you're taking two victims. You
00:33:18
know it's very it's very like you said risky behavior to get getting caught if the other crimes are connected to this.
00:33:27
>> And for decades people would speculate about this and they would wonder you know why make this leap? Was this
00:33:34
something that this Ted person set out to do that day? Was he did he wake up with the plan of going and taking two
00:33:41
women uh and putting them together and terrorizing them at the same time? >> Or did he just go to this event and you
00:33:49
know, you know, his um sickness, his addiction for murder, did it come to the surface and he just couldn't control
00:33:57
himself? And one thing that I heard brought up which is interesting, you know, a lot of these they say sometimes
00:34:03
these serial killers try to oneup each other. Um that there's like some of them that kind of compete or that they read
00:34:10
and study other serial killers and there's things that they want to mimic or or do better than than what they've
00:34:17
seen other killers do. Now, Jack the Ripper did a double event uh back in his day. And uh there's even been some This
00:34:26
is off the subject here, but there's even >> It's weird to call it an event. He did a
00:34:30
double murder. >> Yeah. And And in Jack's situation, he he the thought is that he killed one woman
00:34:37
on one side of town and then very quickly went to the other side of town and killed another woman. There's been
00:34:44
an interesting theory that's come out within the last year or two that speculates that Jack the Ripper was
00:34:49
actually two people working together and that were both linked close to the case
00:34:54
and being investigated at the time and maybe that they came up with this idea that okay, you kill you one half a Jack
00:35:02
Ripper go to this side of town and kill this girl and then >> you're there at the scene of the crime.
00:35:08
So >> you're you're almost a witness to this event, right? So, you cannot be a suspect in the other killing that took
00:35:16
place on the other side of town that's committed by the other, >> right? >> One half of Jack the Ripper, right? You
00:35:21
know, uh, this situation though, I don't I don't know that this was the TED person trying to outdo Jack the Ripper
00:35:29
or if this was something that he read about and fantasized about doing that. that's regarded as actually that's the
00:35:36
number one theory is that this was something that he he wanted to up the stakes that this was something that he
00:35:41
wanted to do that he always desired to take two victims at the same time. >> Well, yeah, if you're getting some
00:35:48
sensation from one murder, then you know up the ante get double the sensation from a double murder.
00:35:58
>> Yeah. and they they suspect that he always wanted to kill one victim in front of the other victim. Um, I'm gonna
00:36:05
go off on my own little thing here. I think what what I see out of this character is I think I see someone
00:36:12
that's just outright addicted to the act of capturing the women and terrorizing them and murdering them. And I think
00:36:20
it's it's like a drug to this person. And I think what happened was he went there that day with the expectation of
00:36:29
abducting one victim and maybe leaving afterwards. Uh however, I think once he got there and there's so many people,
00:36:38
there's so many gorgeous young women that are his victim type and I think that he got there and he he couldn't
00:36:45
it's like a kid in the candy store. He couldn't pick out just one. Uh, I mean, not only that, we see him going up to
00:36:52
woman after woman after woman after woman. I mean, he went up to eight or nine different ladies that day and he
00:36:58
ends up taking two. I think he just really wanted to kill them all, you know, too many victims and he wanted he
00:37:03
there were too many to choose from. So, he would allow himself to >> Well, in fairness, he has to find
00:37:09
somebody that's willing to help him. >> Mhm. And as I said, he approached woman after woman and he allowed himself to.
00:37:16
Who's to say that had he not reached whatever level of gratification that he was hoping to reach or that high that he
00:37:22
was chasing when he went there to the park that morning, who's to say that after two that if he hadn't reached that
00:37:28
high that there wouldn't have been three or four that same day. The King County police, they're finally armed with a
00:37:34
detailed description of their suspect as well as his car. They start posting flyers throughout the Seattle area and a
00:37:42
composite sketch was printed in regional newspapers and broadcast on local television stations. Now the tips start
00:37:49
coming in and they don't just come in. I mean they are pouring in. The police are
00:37:54
receiving approximately 200 tips per day because of the composite sketch as well
00:38:00
as the information about the vehicle and what had taken place at the park that day. Now amongst sprinkled into those uh
00:38:08
sprinkled into those tips are a few that we have to bring up. Okay, there's one really interesting one. First of all,
00:38:15
it's a uh University of Washington psychology professor. >> All right, so this tip number one.
00:38:21
>> Yep. This professor calls in the tip and says, "You know what? I have a student
00:38:26
at at the University of Washington and he's kind of an oddball and he's in my class and he has a VW bug and he looks
00:38:35
like the sketch that I'm seeing on the news and his name is Theodore Bundy. And here's tip number two. So, sprinkled in
00:38:46
with all those other tips, we have a lady by the name of Anne Rule. >> Now, she comes forward and says the same
00:38:53
thing. you know, I worked with this guy at this crisis hotline. He's he's my partner, which is weird because he's a
00:39:00
very nice guy and we're friends. Um, we're not >> Yeah, this is a a crisic hotline.
00:39:08
>> Crisis hotline. >> Yeah. Well, wow. >> It's too early. Um, >> no, but it's a it's basically like a
00:39:16
suicide call-in. You know, if if you're feeling like you're going to commit suicide, you call in. So, so it's it's
00:39:22
odd that Okay. one. Well, we know it's Ted. We know there's a guy named Ted. So, that he has that going against him.
00:39:29
Uh, we also, but it's he has a bug. But could you imagine if you're working this
00:39:35
basically a suicide hotline and you're working with this guy named Ted and you hear about these horrific murders, how
00:39:43
how much that would play with your psyche where well, why would he be helping people not die if but just to go
00:39:51
murder people? >> Well, and think about this too from Anne Rule's perspective. When do you think
00:39:57
that most of those crisis phone calls come in? They the majority of them are probably coming in in the late evening,
00:40:04
nighttime. So, picture this. She is alone with this TED person, this Theodore Bundy. And
00:40:11
>> yeah, they actually lock you in. >> They're working side by side manning the phones together for all hours of the
00:40:17
night. And not only that, they're she said, "We're we're friends. You know, we've gone to lunch together."
00:40:23
>> Yeah. He's a charming guy. >> Yeah. and she's a little bit older at the time and she she's doing that to
00:40:28
just kind of be a good person and donate her time. But the the crisis hotline, what they would do is they would pair
00:40:34
these older adults with uh college students that wanted to donate their time as well. Uh whether they're trying
00:40:42
to gain experience for things, I mean, we're seeing >> it looks good on the resume. this
00:40:46
person, if he ma matches up, if he's the same Theodore Bundy, this is somebody that is obviously taking psychology
00:40:52
classes at uh Washington University. >> Wait, do we have a third tip? >> The third tip is, and I'm I'm going to
00:40:58
give a fake name here because this person I I know their real name, and you can if you look on
00:41:04
>> Let's use the captain. That's a good fake name. >> Well, well, I have a fake name for it.
00:41:09
>> Uh but here's my little warning to everybody. If you want to, you can go out and you can find her real name if
00:41:14
that's that important to you. This person would go on later to write a book and she did not use her real name in the
00:41:21
book. So, I don't think it's fair for me to use her real name here. So, uh her her fake name is Liz Kendall. Now, Liz
00:41:29
Kendall, she says that uh I have a kind of on and off again boyfriend and his name is Ted Bondi and he matches the
00:41:39
description >> as well as he drives the vehicle that that was said to be at the park that
00:41:44
day. Um and she says I she does she she outwardly says to the detective on the phone, I don't suspect that he's the
00:41:53
killer. I I don't think he's capable of anything like that. But >> well this I mean she's having a a sexual
00:42:00
intimate relationship with this individual. So one would hope that you know you don't
00:42:07
pick the worst partners in the world like that. >> Yeah. And what happens is you know she
00:42:13
says she doesn't think it's actually him that he he couldn't kill anybody. He's too nice of a guy to do anything like
00:42:18
that. But because he looks so much like the drawing and because he has the same or similar vehicle, she felt compelled
00:42:25
to call in the top. >> Right. He looks like the drawing. He has the car and it's the same name.
00:42:32
>> Um this is this is the mind um bender for me. Could you imagine a guy in the Seattle, Washington area named Ted?
00:42:45
Guy's a little down on his luck, right? His name is Ted. Handsome man. And he has a tan VW bug. And then this
00:42:55
report comes out. >> But but you're not the killer. >> You don't have anything to do with it.
00:43:00
You're saying supposed hypothetically. >> How many Teds and not even a tan VW VW
00:43:07
bug, but just any TED with a bug in that area? What the heck their brain was going through at the time? like people
00:43:15
constantly just like, "Oh, there's Ted with his bug just giving you the dirtiest looks and you're just like,
00:43:21
"This wasn't me. It wasn't me." >> So, I know what's going on right now. Okay, we have listeners sitting at home.
00:43:27
They're in their car. They're on the subway. They're at work and they're going, "Wait a second. We're talking
00:43:32
about these murders that took place at the lake. We're talking about murders and disappearances that took place at
00:43:37
places at these different campuses. And now we got three people, three people that call in and they
00:43:45
>> but we have hundreds and hundreds of tips, >> but three that are saying specifically
00:43:49
Theodore Bundy. And of course, we can look back 40 years later and go, >> "Well, no [ __ ] Sherlock. Uh, why didn't
00:43:56
you start piecing this together?" >> Right? >> The problem, like the captain said, is
00:43:59
we have over 200 tips coming in per day. And now Robert Keell, who was one of the
00:44:05
lead investigators for the FBI at the time on the Ted Murders case, in his defense, in their defense years later,
00:44:14
he writes in his book the the specifics of what they were dealing with at the time. So by the time of n by June of
00:44:22
1975, here's what they're dealing with. This is, you know, less than a year after the Lake Shemish murders, okay?
00:44:30
They're dealing with 3,500 and sus 3,500 suspect names gathered throughout June of 1975.
00:44:38
>> And those are just Teds. >> Well, not entirely. Those are just suspects that have been called in
00:44:44
whether whether they're a suspect because a detective has put them on the list or because a tipster called it in
00:44:49
and put them on the list >> or maybe another police department said, "Hey, we got this suspicious guy. His
00:44:54
name's not Ted." But 3,500 people, that's a lot of people to sift through. >> Now, on top of that, here's some other
00:45:01
things that they're looking at in this case. >> They have 5,000 mental patients that
00:45:06
were released between the years of 1964 and 1974. We also have 41,000 registered owners of
00:45:14
Volt. >> Say that again. The the mental patients, >> there are 5,000 mental patients released
00:45:20
between the years of 1964 and 1974. >> So, that's a decade time. >> Yeah. Yeah. 5,000 would be a lot if we said it was
00:45:28
10 months or 12 months, but but it's over the course of a day. >> Yeah. Or if it's just all one day.
00:45:33
>> Yeah. Yeah. Just open up the doors. >> All right. See you guys later. >> Um, >> everybody's better.
00:45:37
>> There's 41,000 registered owners of Volkswagens. >> 41,000. >> Very popular car back then.
00:45:44
>> You also have >> My mother had one. >> You also have 300 campus vendors at the
00:45:49
University of Washington. you have 2,162 guests that stayed at a nearby hotel uh
00:45:56
of Lake Shamish of that weekend, >> right? >> So that those are people that came into
00:46:01
the area and then left, >> right? So again, if we if we uh take away the attacks and the murders that
00:46:08
were happening on the college campuses and just look at this as a you know, just an individual isolated event or
00:46:15
murder, I just use your word. M >> um then if if we just isolate it, then this could just be a commuter and where
00:46:24
are they coming from? They they could be coming from 6 hours away, 12 hours away.
00:46:28
Who knows? >> And I think if you're talking about that they only had 200 tips come in total and
00:46:33
one or two of them are of this Theodore Bundy person that matches the description with the
00:46:38
>> college this college student basically, right? >> That they would probably put that
00:46:42
together a lot sooner than what they had. However, we're talking about as far as tips go, a needle and a hay stack.
00:46:49
>> Mhm. >> Okay. So, >> well, actually like a few needles. >> Yeah. >> But it's still
00:46:55
>> all pointing to the same guy, I guess. >> Now, there are some officers that do
00:47:00
follow up on these uh TED uh tips that are coming in. >> The TED tips. >> Um so, but what they find, and I will
00:47:08
fault them a little bit on this. I won't fault them for the needle in the hay stack, but I'll fault them for this.
00:47:14
They very loosely look into this situation. They basically look into the background of this Theodore Bundy, and
00:47:20
they they come up with the idea that it's very unlikely that a cleancut law student with no adult criminal record
00:47:28
would be the perpetrator of this horrible, horrible crime. I mean, we're not talking about stealing something
00:47:34
from the local market. This is a double murder with the potential of a third victim. Uh this is the worst of the
00:47:41
worst. >> Yeah. Well, I like you said, I mean, profilingwise, I think they viewed it as somebody that
00:47:49
was taking their killings to the next level. And that's one of the reasons why the FBI started to encapsulate the other
00:47:57
murders into this event. And so to just think that, okay, if again, if these murders are not connected,
00:48:07
it's still the first time this guy commits a crime that, you know, is a double murder. That seems like a far
00:48:14
jump. I can see see the logic behind that thought. >> Yeah, a lot of the the more uh schooled
00:48:21
detectives and the the FBI, they do think that most these crimes are linked. Um not all of them, there's not a lot of
00:48:27
evidence pointing towards that, though. And the other thing when we're talking about numbers and statistics here,
00:48:32
another thing that they have to deal with is amongst those college campuses where these women disappeared, we're
00:48:38
talking about different college campuses, right? There's over 1500 people that transferred within that time
00:48:43
period out of those schools. So, you know, one could think when when a detective or a FBI agent is looking for
00:48:50
somebody that did something out of character that's absolutely horrible, most people the normal behavior is to
00:48:57
run as far away from that as possible. >> Yeah. >> And so, of course, they're going to look
00:49:02
at anybody that transferred during those time periods has to be a suspect and has
00:49:06
to find themselves on that suspect list, whether it be just for one of the cases
00:49:10
or all of them. Well, we have some connections, you know, like you were saying, the the the more I I it wouldn't
00:49:19
be experienced because it could just be an intellect thing that started seeing that there were connections. I mean, all
00:49:26
female victims, all roughly around the same age. Uh most had um evidence of binding on the hands.
00:49:35
>> U strangulation probably in most of the cases. Well, but again, a lot of these
00:49:40
bodies they've not found and >> Oh, right. Right. >> But one thing you do, one thing you do
00:49:45
have on your side that helps you link them is the short time frame. This is all taking place in the year of 1974.
00:49:51
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> I mean, that's that's pretty quick. >> Um, so we talked about, you know,
00:49:56
running as far away, a normal person would run as far away from their bad deeds as possible. Uh, what we do see
00:50:02
here is in August of 1974, this is just one month after the double event. uh Ted Theodore Bundy. Well, that's
00:50:10
Theodore Bundy. Uh he gets accepted to the University of Utah and he moves to Salt Lake City. And during this transfer
00:50:18
process for Mr. Bundy, the the police, the King County police and the FBI, they're going through they're
00:50:24
experiencing something new for the first time. >> Okay. Not only do they have a very
00:50:29
complicated investigation, this is this is what they're realizing. They're realizing that, you know what,
00:50:35
all this paperwork and all these tips, following up on all these tips, categorizing them, and putting them into
00:50:40
some kind of order that makes sense is a whole another job on itself. The paperwork portion and the recordkeeping
00:50:48
actually became more cumbersome than the actual investigation. Why? Because guess
00:50:53
what? If I'm a if I get a good tip, >> well, I need to I need to go and look through the other tips and see if I can
00:50:59
match that up with anything. Well, we're getting 200 tips a day. How do I sift through thousands and thousands of tips
00:51:06
to see if that if it matches up with anything else? >> And and now with today's technology, we
00:51:12
could take all those tips and we could put them into computer system and we could have the computer find those uh
00:51:20
similarities there. Uh back in 75 this didn't happen, right? Well, what they come up with is they come up with a
00:51:27
pretty intricate uh cataloging system that involves 3x5 index cards. And I won't get into the whole intricacies of
00:51:35
this this system that they come up with. >> You don't want to like true crime dork
00:51:39
it out real quick. >> But they >> three hours later. And then what they did, >> they come up with a way that it's easier
00:51:45
for the detectives and for the persons receiving the tips to categorize them and to link them together in a much more
00:51:52
efficient way. Uh, one good idea that the FBI comes up with is that we need to come up with our 100 best TEDs. Okay? So
00:52:02
whether your name is the captain or whether your name is Nick or whether your name is Ted, if you fit certain
00:52:07
criteria, you could end up being labeled as one of the 100 best Teds. >> And we'll we'll start narrowing it down
00:52:14
from there. And the reason being is because you've got to conduct this investigation with a certain amount of
00:52:19
haste because you you expect at some point your suspect could flee, could end up in prison for something else. He
00:52:27
could just go away and make it harder for you to have an investigation to complete your investigation and find
00:52:33
him. So they've got to figure out how they can speed this process up, >> which I mean this is all interesting
00:52:39
like the the search for this guy to be on the other side of things. Normally when we see a documentary um it's based
00:52:46
off the you know how the serial killer grew up and his his uh relationship between him and his mother and stuff
00:52:53
like that to me and then also once we it becomes a Hollywood movie then it like we we
00:53:00
glorify these people and we glamorize them and it's oh they're so great. Um I I prefer when you know there should be
00:53:10
more documentaries on the actual investigation to find this person. >> Mhm. >> Because that's science and and some of
00:53:17
it it's just by happen stance or luck. But but to me that's super fascinating. >> Well, and what they the reason being
00:53:25
too, Captain, is that they would use these methods. They were like coming up with these methods as they you know as
00:53:32
they were working the case. you know, they'd go home every night and go, "Well, how can we make this work better?
00:53:37
How can we make this more efficient?" And they came up with this whole process. >> Well, and there's lives on the line. I
00:53:43
mean, they're they're you know, innocent, you know, you know, let's by all accounts just assume they're sweet
00:53:51
people and and and females nonetheless. So, I mean, so you know, these detectives are going that we need to
00:53:58
solve this. We need to get closer to solving this or there will be more victims.
00:54:03
>> Yeah. And but some of this process is still used today when you have a huge investigation. This is kind of the
00:54:09
birthplace of these type types of investigations. So the best way to kind of describe this whole situation that
00:54:16
they set up, their whole tactic here is think of a giant spreadsheet, right? And
00:54:21
you could have listed on it uh a hundred different guys, okay? And on this spreadsheet, you're going to have
00:54:28
different criteria. And some of those guys will check a certain number of those boxes. Well, the more boxes that
00:54:34
you check, the higher your name is up on this 100 best Teds list. And their thought was that they could put three
00:54:42
detectives in charge of the 100 best Teds. And that those three detectives working that list over the course of one
00:54:51
year should either be able to find the suspect or clear all 100 names. So, they've now put themselves on a on a
00:55:00
deadline for finding this Ted. And the way that you could work yourself up and be higher on the list is having more
00:55:06
checks on those different criteria. You know, who actually has the name Ted? Or was was this person known to use the
00:55:13
alias Ted? >> Does this person have a VW bug? Do they have access to a VW bug? How close do
00:55:20
they fit the description? Are they height, weight, age, things of that nature? How many tips are coming in with
00:55:26
this person's name? Was he on the list because of a detective, because of the FBI, because of a tip that came in? All
00:55:32
these different things will factor in to figure out how high and how likely you are to be the actual TED that they are
00:55:39
seeking. While the King County Police Department and the FBI are putting together their list of the 100 be best
00:55:47
Teds, we have our Ted Bundy that they are actually looking for who is now located in Salt Lake City. Now, there's
00:55:56
another event that's going to take place. This is in the late afternoon of November 8th. Ted Bundy approached an
00:56:03
18-year-old telephone operator. Her name is Carol Danch. And this is at one of those malls. This is at the Fashion
00:56:10
Place Mall in Murray, Utah. R. Ted identified himself as Officer Rosland of the Murray Police Department. He told
00:56:18
Carol Danch that someone had attempted to break into her vehicle. Now, he's asked her to go with him back to the
00:56:26
police department because he needs to take an official report of the incident and that she might even be able to
00:56:33
identify the person that they believe they have in custody for the attempted breakin.
00:56:38
>> She agrees to go with him um and to go file this complaint. Now on this trip she does point out to uh this officer
00:56:48
Roslin that he is not going the right direction that that he was driving you know completely wrong direction to the
00:56:58
police department. >> Uh during this time she is starting to get weary and she's starting to question
00:57:04
who this person that she's act absolutely with. >> Well and and it's not clear but I don't
00:57:09
think he's dressed as a police officer. No, he he's he's um >> he's in street clothes.
00:57:15
>> Correct. And she asked to for him to provide some form of identification. >> She should have done that before she got
00:57:21
in the car. >> She said that he >> and she gets in the bug, >> right? >> Yeah. >> You're offduty police officer driving a
00:57:30
a bug. Okay. >> I think she just thought he might have been some kind of detective. And uh she
00:57:36
asked for this identification. She says that he does kind of quickly flash a badge. Uh, and she does say that the
00:57:44
badge looked pretty suspect. And when she started to get nervous and when she started to get visibly,
00:57:49
>> it was one of those uh star badges that just say sheriff on it. >> Yeah. You just buy it at the uh the
00:57:55
local general store there. >> Buck. Yeah. Um, but she says once she becomes visibly nervous and she is thinking
00:58:04
about getting out of this vehicle, he tries to handcuff her. He and what what's happening now, Captain? He's
00:58:11
attacking her and during this scuffle that's taking place in the vehicle, he slaps a handcuff on her and he's got one
00:58:19
wrist handcuffed, right? He's trying to get the handcuff on the other wrist. What takes place is he accidentally puts
00:58:27
the handcuffs, both cuffs on the same wrist. He thinks that he's got her where he wants her. Well, she's able to she's
00:58:36
able to continue the struggle and she later gets out of the out of the vehicle and escapes this person that she was
00:58:44
told was a police officer. Now, you would think having abducted this woman, pretending to be a cop, and then in a
00:58:52
scuffle inside the car, and she escapes, and she's even got a bit of evidence with her because she's got the the
00:59:00
handcuffs around her wrist now, >> right? >> So, she has something of yours. You
00:59:05
would think that this this person would then say, "You know what? I've had enough for one day. This didn't go well
00:59:11
for me. I I have somebody that can identify me." we got into an altercation. This is problematic for me,
00:59:19
especially knowing the history that this person has. However, we're talking about
00:59:23
somebody that cannot that probably cannot control themselves or their desires, >> right? The urge.
00:59:30
>> So, Ted Bundy then remembers that he knows that there is a production going on, you know, a theater production at a
00:59:37
high school. Now, this is only about 19 miles away. Now, who are we talking about here? We're talking about Ted
00:59:44
Bundy. We're talking about a person that loves to drive. >> Really? We're >> No, but we're talking about somebody
00:59:49
that loves to drive and loves to troll and loves to kind of hunt for these victims, whether it be a person, you
00:59:56
know, that he's going to use a ruse to obtain or if it's somebody that he's going to seek out. Uh, but this is
01:00:03
somebody that is is always on the prowl. >> Yeah. He's constantly coming up with
01:00:07
these cons >> and these schemes of how can I find new victims? Well, for whatever reason, he
01:00:13
had seen either seen a um he had got a hold of a brochure for one of these high school theater productions, right?
01:00:20
>> And this pops in his head immediately. You know, this potential victim just escaped. Now, I need to go find a new
01:00:27
victim. I I can't I got to I got to reach this high, this climax that I've been looking for that I set out for. So,
01:00:34
now I need a new victim. So, I'm going to drive 19 miles away. He drives to the Vmont High School. Now, this is where
01:00:42
the theater production is just letting out. And there's again, this is a situation where we have a lot of people
01:00:49
at the high school. This is a high-risk situation for this this suspect. And when he's there, he is
01:00:56
>> We don't have to call him the suspect anymore. Ted. Right. >> Right. Right. Sorry.
01:01:03
>> The suspect. Like, we don't know who he is. It's Ted. Well, Ted is later seen
01:01:08
he's seen pacing at the rear of the at the parking lot that's behind the theater portion of the school. Yeah. So,
01:01:16
he's seen by multiple people being back there. Now, while he's there, he's again
01:01:20
approaching different people and he's asking them, you know, he's telling them that he's a police officer and that he
01:01:28
>> he's still going with it. >> Yeah. and that he he's there's things going on with these vehicles and he
01:01:34
needs you to come over and identify this car or he needs you to come over and speak with him. At some point, we do not
01:01:40
know exactly how, but outside of the auditorium, he is able to lure Deborah Jean Kent. She's only 17 years old.
01:01:49
She's a student at the Vumont High School. And he lures her and he takes her. Now,
01:01:57
she's never seen again, >> right? And we don't know if there was a con, you know, or if it if it was just him
01:02:05
grabbing her, you know, physically removing her. >> And we we can surmise that. Yeah. That
01:02:11
you're exactly right. One of two things happened. He either tricked her or he may have just panicked and just grabbed
01:02:16
somebody and took off. Now, a lot of people would your first thought is, well, how do you make this jump
01:02:23
immediately from Carol Danch to this 17-year-old girl at the high school that's 19 miles away? Well, the the body
01:02:34
of Debbie of Deborah Kent has never been found. >> Mhm. >> However, what they do find in the
01:02:40
parking lot, excuse me, of the high school, they find a small key. Well, what is that key? That key when you put
01:02:48
it into the handcuffs that were on Carol Danch wrist. >> Oh yeah. >> It opens up the handcuffs. So we know
01:02:54
that the same person that took Carol Danch took this 17-year-old girl. >> Yeah. Well, that's I mean that's some
01:03:02
fascinating [ __ ] right there. >> Yeah. Well, the thing is what we're seeing here again, Captain, is what in
01:03:07
my opinion is a guy that's absolutely addicted to this form of behavior. addicted to these acts and these events,
01:03:15
these terrible events. What What are we seeing? We're seeing the same thing that we saw at Lakes
01:03:20
Shemameish where he cannot stop himself. He cannot control himself. He's he's already at risk of getting caught
01:03:26
because the potential victim gets away. And rather than coming down off of that high, he's got to go immediately to
01:03:34
where he knows there's a large group of people and seek out a new victim, putting himself at bigger risk of
01:03:39
getting caught. He's even seen walking and talking to people in the parking lot,
01:03:43
>> right? Less than 30, 40 minutes, he's already attacking a new victim. >> And what we're going to see here too,
01:03:49
Captain, is repeated behavior. So, what happened when things started getting hot
01:03:54
in the state of Washington? Well, all of a sudden, this Ted Bundy had to transfer
01:04:01
to Utah to go to school in Utah. He didn't need to transfer to go to Utah. He he transferred because there's he's
01:04:08
seen drawings of himself on the news and in the newspaper. People were even calling in and identifying him by name
01:04:15
to the police. It got hot there, so he fled. >> Well, he's going to remain in Utah.
01:04:21
However, he's going to start driving quite a big distance to achieve this high that he's always seeking. He's
01:04:28
going to drive out to the state of Colorado. And in 1975, he's going to attempt and abduct and attack and kill
01:04:37
about five or six women in the state of Colorado in 1975. Now, this is all going to come to a head
01:04:44
because in 1975, August 16th, Ted Bundy is arrested. Now, I want to go ahead and
01:04:52
throw out there, everybody's going to go, "Well, we know this story, Nick." No, I don't think that everybody does
01:04:57
because this is often reported as something as little as it was a routine traffic stop. And it isn't that how
01:05:05
you've always heard it reported? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I've heard it reported >> pretty common.
01:05:10
>> reported that way multiple times. And this is what I get very upset about. >> Almost like the cops got lucky.
01:05:16
>> Exactly. Well, that's not what took place. That's not what took place at all.
01:05:21
>> Well, speak the truth, my friend. Well, and here's the other thing that I want
01:05:24
to let me just kind of dive into this. >> True Crime Garage. >> One thing that I get very angry about
01:05:29
when we talk about Ted Bundy is there's there's a few things that always come up. You know, people say, well, you
01:05:36
know, he had a rough childhood. Well, that's actually not the truth. You know, a lot of people will say, well, that his
01:05:42
his mother was pretending to be on that sister. >> We differ on that. >> You got to let me vent for a little bit.
01:05:50
The the thought here is that his mother was pretending to be his sister because she had him out of wedlock at a young
01:05:58
age and that's something that you didn't do back then. So then his grandparents become his parents and that they're
01:06:04
going to he's going to grow up believing this for all of his childhood life. And
01:06:09
that's absolutely not the truth. His mother and him moved away from the grandparents home when he was about six
01:06:16
or seven. So maybe this took place, but if it did, it only took place for the very early stages of his life. And how
01:06:23
did he know pretty quickly into his life that his mother was not his sister and was in fact his mother was because when
01:06:31
they moved to Washington, she got remarried and he was raised by her and his stepfather from a young age and
01:06:39
though and her and his stepfather had four children. So they he he had a more quote unquote normal childhood than most
01:06:48
would agree with. The other thing too is that there's this thought that his grandfather fathered him with his mother
01:06:56
and that is absolutely there there's no truth to that at all. That's at best it's just a bad neighborhood rumor that
01:07:04
may have come up. I don't know where it came along. I I think it probably came along through the
01:07:09
>> Well, there's some validity to this because one of Ted Bundy's lawyers heard these claims and their um office then
01:07:17
investigated it and he says on record that he feels like he had enough evidence to prove it, but he didn't have
01:07:25
the smoking gun to say yes for certain that Ted Bundy's uh grandfather was his father. I'm glad you brought that up
01:07:33
because I had wondered always wondered where that rumor or that story originated from and maybe that's the
01:07:38
birthplace of it. Um but but from what I've everything that I've seen >> well because afterwards hindsight it was
01:07:47
like how how did this sicko happen? >> You know everybody wanted to find these reasons. Oh was porno you know porno you
01:07:54
know his addiction to porno or maybe he was dropped when he was a baby. They were trying to find all these answers
01:08:00
and I think that's where it came from. Well, maybe it's like a birth defect or, you know, some sort of um incest.
01:08:07
>> Well, yeah. Society wants answers. You don't believe, nobody wants to believe
01:08:10
that a young, good-looking, somewhat seemingly successful college student, uh, law student is going to go on and
01:08:18
murder as many women as he possibly can, right? Um, but from everything that I've
01:08:23
seen is that his mother had an onag again offagain relationship uh with this man for for many years and he fathered
01:08:33
Ted Bundy and Ted got his last name from his eventual stepfather. However, the his real father didn't want to have
01:08:40
kids, didn't want to have a didn't want to settle down and get married. And this
01:08:44
I don't have the the man's name in front of me, but it sounds like this is something that he did uh more than once
01:08:50
uh throughout his lifetime. Um but but the real reason for my venting here is that I believe things like that are over
01:08:58
sensationalized. you know that they that they almost champion the killer when they when you see the biographies and
01:09:05
when you see the documentaries on Ted Bundy, both of those things usually come up about his mother pretending to be his
01:09:12
sister and they they kind of gloss over it and give the impression that that took place over the course of his entire
01:09:19
childhood and that's just not the case. Now, the thing that that makes me angry is that when something good and
01:09:25
something positive actually happens in a story like this, they don't spend any time on it. And this is what I'm talking
01:09:31
about. I'm talking about the apprehension of Ted Bundy. This took place in the sub in a suburb
01:09:37
of Salt Lake City. This is in Granger. Now, this is just good oldfashioned police work. And this is the stuff that
01:09:44
should be championed when we're talking about stories like this. We have Officer
01:09:48
Haywood. Now, who is he? He's just a local cop, but he's a he's damn good at his job, right? My hat is off to Officer
01:09:56
Haywood here because >> you know, he might have been a slouch, but he did this one thing good.
01:10:01
>> Well, I believe that especially if you're in a smaller town like this, that it is very important to your job as a
01:10:08
police officer, that you know your town, and that you know your town's people and
01:10:12
you know what's going on and in and around your town. Now, he's sitting there at the end of his shift and he's
01:10:18
filling out his police log for the day and his paperwork, anything, you know, whatever they do at the end of their
01:10:23
shift. And during the course of this, while he's sitting there, he sees this bug, this VW pass him more than once.
01:10:31
And he this is not a vehicle that he recognizes from the town, >> right in the neighborhood.
01:10:37
>> So, immediately he's on alert. You know, when you when you see somebody come into
01:10:41
your town that you don't recognize the vehicle, this is good old-fashioned police work. And what's going on in this
01:10:47
area is there is a home that is very close by where the officer is parked and he's filling out his paperwork. Now, who
01:10:55
is this home belong to? This belongs to people that he knows that are on vacation. They're away and the home is
01:11:02
only being occupied by the two older teenage daughters. Now he sees this V VW bug almost, you know, more than once,
01:11:12
almost like like a shark circling its prey where it he he believes that that this vehicle has an interest in that
01:11:21
home, >> right? >> And so now he's he's very curious about this vehicle. >> So using his cop car, he's going to
01:11:29
approach the vehicle and attempt to do a routine traffic stop. Mhm. >> Well, the car does not want to pull over
01:11:37
and this turns into a bit of a chase, but it's not like it's not like a super crazy, you know, like you see on TV cops
01:11:43
chase, >> right? Wasn't an OJ chase, >> but but the the person in the car clearly doesn't want to be pulled over.
01:11:51
>> Eventually, he's pulled over and during the course of which the officer Heywood
01:11:56
makes several observations. The first thing that he notices is that the the front seat of the VW bug is not it's not
01:12:05
like secured. It's not it's not screwed in, which is which is extremely rare. It's odd.
01:12:10
>> Yeah. And so he starts to question the driver and he wants to know, you know,
01:12:14
what's what's your backstory? Who are you and why are you here? And the person driving the vehicle explains that his
01:12:20
name is Ted Bondi and that he's a law student in college and that uh he was just in town and he was he he was in
01:12:28
town to see a movie. Um well, what movie were you seeing? And he was seeing the Towering Inferno is what Ted Bundy says.
01:12:35
Well, the officer says he knows his town. The local theater is not showing that movie. So again, he's on high
01:12:44
alert. He's not believing anything that this guy says and he wants to search the
01:12:48
vehicle. Once he searches the vehicle, he finds what he believes is a burglar kit. And inside this kit, there's
01:12:56
there's more other things here, but you he sees panty hose, uh a flashlight, a ski mask, handcuffs, a crowbar, an ice
01:13:05
pick. Uh and he also finds quite a bit of gas receipts. And now that he has the car open, he's also notice noticed that
01:13:12
the door latch handle is missing from the passenger side door, >> right? Which is odd as well.
01:13:18
>> And this Ted Bundy that he pulled over is dressed all in black. Well, here's some strange things here. He's thinking
01:13:25
to himself, well, a young a young handsome college man who should be at college trying to pick up a woman.
01:13:34
Instead, he's in the middle of this suburb driving around in the middle of the night dressed all in black. This
01:13:39
doesn't make sense to me. And this is where uh Ted Bundy is picked up and apprehended and he's arrested on
01:13:47
suspicion of burglary. And he he would be asked by the officer, "What are these items for?" And he says, "Well, you
01:13:53
know, I I'm a skier, so that's why I have a ski mask." Um, right. >> Well, what's the handcuffs for? you
01:14:00
know, uh, well, I'm a law student and I use these in class, too, when we give our presentations. Uh, so Mr. Bundy's
01:14:07
got answer for everything. >> Uh, but regardless of his answers, he finds himself behind bars.
01:14:13
>> All right. So, now we got Ted Bundy in jail, and there's so much more to talk
01:14:17
about this, so we're going to have to do that in another part. >> Yeah, I think that covers us for the Ted
01:14:22
Murders portion of this case. Little recommended reading for you today. I want to recommend The Bundy Murders, a
01:14:28
comprehensive history. This is by Kevin M. Sullivan. Uh, I really like this book. This book came out just a few
01:14:35
years ago, but one thing that we're always searching for, you know, >> it's like, you know, it's kind of like
01:14:40
Jack the Ripper. There's a hundred books out there, right, Ted Bundy? There's there's so many books out there. And to
01:14:45
be honest with you, there's only probably a handful, maybe 10 that are good, that are great books out there.
01:14:51
This is definitely one of them. >> So, uh, the reason why this one's so good is it just came out a few years
01:14:57
ago. And at first, my initial thought was, "Oh, great. Another Bundy book. This this Kevin M. Sullivan just wants
01:15:03
to make a name for himself by telling the same old story that's been told a hundred times." That's not the case.
01:15:09
There's plenty of new information in this book. So, if you've read other Bundy books, this is one that you'll
01:15:14
want to pick up. Uh, plenty of new information. He does a really good job of taking later confessions and later
01:15:21
discussions with Bundy, things that would happen much further down the line, and piecing them together with with the
01:15:26
things that were missing from the investigations. Uh, and he he's completing the story, if you will.
01:15:32
>> Yeah. Looking back on it, hindsight. >> Yeah. So, that's the Bundy Murders, a a
01:15:37
comprehensive history by Kevin M. Sullivan. You can pick that up by going to our website and click on the
01:15:42
recommended page. We have our books listed there. >> Yeah. And uh if you go to uh true
01:15:48
crimegar.com and click on our Amazon banner, you can buy anything. If you've seen on Instagram, I have my little
01:15:55
diver captain. It's the captain divers helmet that was bought >> scuba Steve. >> Scuba scuba captain. Uh that was bought
01:16:04
through Amazon and and they they kick a little love to us at no charge to you. So and for everything true crime garage,
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check out true crimegar.com. Make sure you sign up on the mailing list and make sure you tell a friend
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about the show. It goes a long way. And all social media, follow us, Snapchat now on on what is it called?
01:16:25
>> Untapped. >> Untapped. Uh you can follow Nick on Untapped. Uh True Crime Garage.
01:16:33
>> If you follow me on there, don't judge me. Don't judge all the drinking that's
01:16:36
going on on a Tuesday. Please don't. >> There will be judging. All right, that wraps up this show. We'll see you guys
01:16:42
tomorrow. >> Until next time, be good. Be kind and don't live. [Music] [Applause]
01:17:04
[Music]