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foreign [Music] foreign foreign garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks for listening I'm your host
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Nick and with me as always as a man that likes to rock and roll all night and part of every day he is the captain well
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Beth what can I do it's good to be seen and it's good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling your
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friends [Music] tonight the fridge is full with Genesee Beer garage grade three out of five
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bottle caps Genesis Tennessee Genesee Beer is an American icon captain and today every can every
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bottle every pint glass delivers the same full taste and quality that made it famous way back in 1878 when you were in
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high school that was my jam Tennessee Genesis Tennessee Genesee is truly a great classic beer in this week's fridge
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is full thanks to these truly great guys and girls first up we have in the Greatest Town in America Parts Unknown
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we have Alex we also have Lori and we also have Leanne in just a quick announcement to the great people of
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Parts Unknown the annual early spring tractor pull has been postponed until it stops snowing look for announcements
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soon hopefully and a big shout out to Ashley in Greensburg Pennsylvania let's go north of the Border let's say thank
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you to Ladonna up in Fort McMurray Canada also in Canada a shout out to Karina and Ottawa wait want to do one
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more Canada shout out a long distance cheers to Terina and Port Coquette Muslim British Columbia
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there is no way that you got that correct it's a it's a built it's a built time that you start looking this stuff
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up let's give it cheers to Tiffany and Bellman Iowa and last but not least we have Amy from Kirkland Washington
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cheers everybody thanks to everybody for filling up the fridge for this week's show if you want to help us out with
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next week's show go to True Crime garage.com click on the Donate button and we have some uh special
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announcements coming up soon some things to tell you but if you're not listening
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on the Stitcher app you want to go download that Stitcher app for free today and that's enough of the business
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everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime foreign
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[Music] foreign [Music] [Music] is taken from letters to John Paul Faye from Arthur shawcross written behind
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Prison Walls hello John you can call me art if you want the stationary you chose is quite
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good reminds me of someone I knew one time tied up blindfolded and gagged is good
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her legs would not be tied wide open I like blondes brunettes redheads or whatever
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but I am choosy in the type I crave but at times I lose control and it's as if I made a snuff film
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you forgot to mention a saw or two my specialty is the key hole saw it's what I used on three victims
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then you have the jigsaw real Handy OJ didn't kill Nicole his friend did think about it
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he also had a white Bronco it's very strange it was gotten rid of right away so you tell me
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something worth looking into John if you want a woman for the winter pull one of the homeless
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she will like it inside all winter then in the spring Let Her Go I've been there all winter with two
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women in the apartment what tastes better than pork Jeffrey Dahmer was into eating and
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torturing his homosexual partners as for me I only ate certain parts quite tasty at that
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don't need salt either Ed gein's last victim was just about like one of mine but not tied up mine was laying back
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legs open with a silly grin on her mug John The Saul man every human no matter what color looks
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the same after they're skinned you go to Southern Cal stay away from any earthquake section
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AIDS lets you and I waste some morons be cool pal don't hurt anyone at least don't get caught at it
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gotta go pal good day art [Music] foreign [Music] age 27 was an emaciated sex worker who
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took to working the streets to support a drug habit she was last seen alive on Saturday July 8 1989 while walking along
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Lyle Avenue Arthur shawcross had met her by the princess restaurant on Lake Avenue and he walked with her to the
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back of the YMCA he then drove her down to the driving Park and during oral sex he grabbed her throat and strangled her
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before rolling her body over the edge of the Genesee River Gorge it is reported that she was frustrated after Arthur
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could not get an erection after 40 minutes it's also alleged that she threatened to tell the police that she
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had seen Arthur Shaw cross with Dotsy remember she was the victim that we discussed yesterday
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Anna Marie's body was found on Sunday September 11 1988 this is by Hector Maldonado while he was searching for
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returnable bottles so that he could save up some money to buy cigarettes the victim was lying on her left side
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curled in a semi-fetal position a pair of Calvin Klein jeans were pulled down around the ankles and turned inside out
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a white tank top with red shoulder straps was wrapped around the right wrist and a clump of hair had been
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ripped from the skull the eyes were missing from their sockets now just three weeks later on Saturday
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July 29 1989 Dorothy Keller this was supposedly Shaw cross's friend would be his third victim now she was
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different from the first two in the sense that she was not a sex worker she was a 58 year old woman she was homeless
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and shawcross had met Dorothy when she worked as a waitress and a diner that he had gone to the two struck up a
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friendship which had quickly turned into an affair on an afternoon this was um on his way
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to fish in the river he stopped when he saw Keller to speak with her when she found out where he was
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going she asked if he could take her with him and he agreed according to Shaw cross they spent the morning fishing and
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making love until around midday when it started to rain now didn't she live with
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him at some point I believe so there there there were a couple people that shawcross had affairs with or so he
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would later claim because we have this individual here that would end up a murder victim that can't tell us
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otherwise um and one thing that I think that we're going to see here with Shaw cross is
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there seems to be a reason for most of these murders or at least a reason that he has made up in his mind you know
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either um the the woman made fun of him or bit him or assaulted him or tried to Rob him
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and therefore he lost control and decided to kill them and with Dorothy uh the interview that I saw Arthur was
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saying that Dorothy lived with him and that he also paid her some weird amount like four dollars and 32 cents or
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something to clean the apartment yeah he would claim that there was a couple things that sent him into a rage you
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know they're they're huddling together in this crude shelter that shawcross put together while it rains out there and he
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states that while they're huddling together they get into some kind of argument and it starts off with an
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argument about her stealing money and then it turns into they're arguing about his relationships that he has with
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rose and with Clara he claimed that she started to threaten him telling saying that she was going to tell the other
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women about their affair right and this is when Arthur shawcross became angry he
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picked up a small log and he beat her on the side of the head uh until he killed
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her now he he hit her body under a fallen tree and then he went home her body was
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found on October 21st but he later told police that at one time he had returned to the spot several months later and
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removed the skull and dumped it in the river yeah and in the interview I saw they
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said uh how did you you know remove the skull he said you just do you just do yeah it doesn't have that
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big of an accent but yeah sounded better sounded better in my head on Friday September 29 1989 Patricia Ives this was
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another Lake Avenue sex worker also known as crazy Patty she was um 25 years old at the time drug dependent a high
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school dropout she did have a a baby a young child who had been placed in foster care some say that she
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once was a very attractive woman that she she used to Bear more of a resemblance to the film star Julia
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Roberts um but by this point because the drugs had taken their toll and she was right a
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bit of a walking skeleton she had uh ragged and unkept hair and she also had needle marks from her elbows to her
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fingers that's sad it was also believed that she might have had the AIDS virus now our Arthur shawcross claims that she
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offered him sex for 25 when he approached the same Diner where Dorothy Keller had worked
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he agreed to this and they went to a construction site while there uh and while having sex shawcross says that he
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caught Ives trying to remove his wallet and pushed her hard against the ground she began to cry and he raped her and
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began to strangle her until she didn't move anymore shawcross said that there were children
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playing nearby and he states that I put my hand over her mouth and held her nose
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she didn't struggle she didn't holler she didn't fight that he knew her and that Patty had been in the company of a
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white male who was riding a bike with balloon tires there were fishing rods protruding from the Cycle's rear baskets
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Patty was reported missing the following day by her pimp slash boyfriend who on the streets went by the name get get
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ready for this guy okay it went by the name is the Pimp's name yes okay rat face Billy
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you can't make this stuff up I'm telling you who's your boyfriend oh you know old old
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rat face uh we shouldn't laugh uh pot Patty's body was found by children who were
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looking for a lost baseball on Friday October 27th when they saw a foot sticking out from a pile of flattened
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cardboard the corpse was clothed in black pants and a sweatshirt lying face up and a wedding ring was missing from
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her finger there were no shoes or socks on the body and maggots had devoured most of the flesh
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on October 23 1989 June Stott uh was 30 years old was the youngest of eight children she was homeless she apparently
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heard mysterious voices in her head and had been taken to sleeping on Lyle Avenue
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now she's she's different in a sense that she's not a sex worker or a drug addict this is something that you and I
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have spoke about before on our little show here our little garage show that's taking care of people that have mental
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health issues yeah but I mean I also think we have issues with you know trying to take care of you know the sex
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workers I mean whether it's you know should be legal or shouldn't be legal I mean we have to do a better job well I
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only point that out here because from everything I could gather it appears that this this young woman was simply
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homeless because of of the problems she had and it wasn't due to drugs or anything of that nature that she simply
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needed to be taken care of and didn't have anyone to help her with this now Shaw cross you know this is this is what
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we will see time and time again from from Monsters like Shaw cross they will find somebody they will come across
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somebody with uh let's say what he would determine to be a weakness and he's going going to Prey Upon that person and
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make them further victimize them because he can yeah and he's going to talk her into going fishing with him which we
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know is a bad thing well and when they're down by the water he's trying to talk her into having sex with with him
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and she refuses and he says this is when he decided to strangle her now two days
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later he returned to the body and he dragged it down into the uh there's an area there with those large Cattails uh
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he dragged the body there and using a knife he cut open her body from the breastbone to the crotch he then gutted
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her like a a fish using his words throwing the entrails into the river on Thursday November hold on I just want
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to point out that in the interview I watched on him he claims that this attack happened and he didn't leave he
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was there all day and that he actually cut her open beforehand before returning to the body right now that's what he
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claims now the only reason why I bring that up is that you see a lot of times in his stories now he's either
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misremembering or he's yeah and on Thursday November 23rd a man walking his dog he noticed an
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ice-covered object it was a piece of carpet under which was the badly decomposed body of June Stott the corpse
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was face down but lividity staining showed that she had been rolled over long after death the right leg was bent
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inward at the knee elevating the buttocks and suggesting the possibility of intercourse after death with the body
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the vagina was missing from the body and Arthur shawcross later said that he had
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ate it yeah and wow this is a graphic show um but law enforcement are now well aware that they're looking for a serial
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killer well that's kind of a unique situation I guess in the sense that that's not always the case you know
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sometimes they arrest a guy for a murder and then later find out that he's guilty
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of three or four or five right here here we have enough of a consistency in victims and how often they are finding
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these victims that they're well aware that they're probably looking for they're at least looking for a serial
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killer it's undetermined if all of these are connected to the same guy or not yeah so they actually had a couple sting
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operations that they set up and having police officers go undercover and because you know a lot of these victims
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were sex workers so they were trying to you know figure this out now what Arthur talks about in his interview is
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that he used to hang on at Dunkin Donuts and he happened to be wearing like for whatever reason he says some very shiny
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shoes and so when these officers were in there talking about this stuff that they kind
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of just assumed because of his shiny shoes that he was law enforcement okay but none of them were dressed in
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uniforms so they started talking about how they're trying to run the sting operation and basically by just being at
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that donut shop he learned I know there's probably a bunch of cop jokes out there with the donut shop but he
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learned all the decoys and so he could stay away from that right right he would he would overhear these officers talking
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about their investigation at times he was even speaking with them and it he was a regular in several diners and
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coffee shops and this allowed him access to those uh individuals now there were several victims in the course of
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November of 1989. Marie Welch Francis Brown there's one that I do want to talk about in particular this is a story from
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early November 1989 a Woman by the name of Joanne Van Nostrand told police about
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a client named Mitch a guy that called himself Mitch who had paid her to play dead the man also tried to strangle her
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she pulled a knife on him and fought him off this was the first Real Lead the investigators received it was the second
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time that the man with the same physical description named either Mike or Mitch had been mentioned in reference to the
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murders interviews with many of the Lyle Street sex workers indicate stated that
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he was a regular and that he had the reputation of being violent with the women Elizabeth Gibson was also one of
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his victims yes she was last seen working the streets on Lyle Avenue on Saturday November 25th her body was
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found just two days later by a deer hunter walking through the woods now at this crime scene police discovered Tire
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impressions in the muddy ground and they also discovered blue paint chips from where a vehicle had scraped a tree now
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this paint would later be matched to Claire's blue Dodge Omni this was of course a vehicle that shawcross often
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borrowed the his ninth victim or believed to be ninth victim was Darlene trippy age 32
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she was last seen Alive by her sister on Friday December 15th it wasn't until after his arrest that Shah cross was
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able to direct police to Darlene's frozen body I want to point out something though
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here Captain we we're seeing a frequency to this aren't we I mean we're talking about multiple victims in in the same
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month we're talking about what they would later say probably 11 victims is what we're looking at is is pretty much
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a certainty uh probably more victims were involved in this series that were not included in his later convictions
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possible yeah but we're seeing we're seeing what we've seen from time to time before you know when we discussed Ted
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Bundy or the Green River Killer where you see a guy that has this capability that has murder on his mind who is
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appears to almost have spiraled out of control to the point where he's murdering two three people a month well
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let's talk about how old noodle dick is caught well so the investigation kind of
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works like this we have most of the victims we're sex workers who worked in the red light district of lake and Lyle
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Avenues the women were either strangled or beaten to death and each was disposed
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of naked or partially clothed around the city and close to or in water most of the victims had debris stuffed into
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their ears nose and other body cavities their clothes were often found neatly folded or close to the corpses which
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ranged in decomposition from skeletal to preserved in several instances the body
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exhibited signs of having been partially eaten by wild animals or cannibalized by
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the killer himself recognizing these patterns the Rochester Police doubled the size of its physical
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crimes unit round-the-clock surveillance by Rochester PD Tactical Unit focused attention on the red light district
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where many of the victims were last seen to be alive the services of the FBI profilers were called upon to complete a
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psychological profile of the serial killer the successful capture of Arthur J shawcross was due to an equal
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combination of good luck in dogged police work ultimately though it was the mindset of this psychopath that
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ultimately sealed his Fate One of shawcross's last victims was June Cicero she was aged 34. she was a strong
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character with a drug habit she had arrived in Rochester from Brooklyn New York in 1973 and she had been well known
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on the streets of Rochester where she was regarded as something of a mother figure to many of the younger women who
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operated in the red light district she was a pistol yes June suddenly disappeared Without a Trace from the red
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light district this was on the late evening of Sunday December 17 1989. now where this comes into play
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here Captain is a police helicopter crew spotted her Frozen corpse lying in the icy Salmon Creek on Wednesday January
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3rd 1990. the body was naked except for a white sweater and white socks Arthur shawcross was seen standing on a nearby
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bridge by the same helicopter and he was seen dropping something into the creek before driving off in the vehicle it was
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this incident that would later lead to his arrest well this is kind of confusing so the body was found on the
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third and what we think based off of reports is on the fourth is when they would see him because what what law
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enforcement started to understand is whoever is committing these murders is going back to the scene so
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that he probably um probably dumped her body before the third she was found on the third
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probably the fourth is when he is caught which in my reports he's urinating on the bridge some have speculated that he
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was uh masturbating on the bridge well and I think I think in regards to that Captain they couldn't determine what it
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was he was doing I think they could determine that possibly his pants were down or his fly was unzipped yeah and
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then so I think they ended up pulling them over well what what they ultimately end up
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doing is the vehicle that he is in that night they're able to trace that vehicle
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and they they trace that vehicle back to him in a sense that they connected to him because it belongs to one of the
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women that he's seeing remember he's taking turns driving his wife's car and his girlfriend's car from time to time
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to pick up these women to commit these murders well when they trace this vehicle back to him
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it doesn't take long for them to run his his background and figure out that this
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dude has murdered people in the past he's been convicted of one murder right and what they decide to do is they
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decide to okay he he claims that he had no involvement in any of this however they're going to give him the night to
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rest but they're going to observe him they're going to surveil him they're going to keep him under their watchful
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eye early that next morning is when they take him down to the police headquarters
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one thing that the detectives that spoke to Arthur shawcross in his questioning or interrogation whatever you want to
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call it this was not FBI agents these were local detectives and they kind of picked up on some personality traits of
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Arthur shawcross very quickly into speaking with him one they found that he was a talker that he liked the talk that
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he liked to open up if you kept him comfortable he would keep speaking to you the other thing he seemed to want to
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never trust a talker he seemed to want to be their friends in some kind of weird way even though he
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was denying all their claims he seemed to be one wanting to be their friends in the sense that he wanted to open up to
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them they use the tactic that I found pretty interesting which is a little bit weird
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because this guy has got no soul my friend this guy has got no conscience this guy does not care about human
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beings or life in general I mean he even said his interview I have no remorse yes
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and what they do is they start saying look we don't want it you need to fess up to
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these murders because we don't want anybody else to get in trouble for this and what they meant was okay you're
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using your wife's car to commit these murders you're using your girlfriend's car to commit these murders those two
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one of those two or both had to know what you were up to one of those two or both maybe were helping you commit these
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murders yeah and he simply just said after hours and hours of them questioning him and things coming at him
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is what he said yeah as he just got tired of it so he just confessed yeah and so he confesses to the murders not
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all of the series that they had at the time I believe it was 14 or 15 murders in total that they had uh questioned him
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about he would later confess too many of them actually leading them to a couple of the bodies that had been undiscovered
00:28:08
at that time but it was just in December of 1990 when Arthur shawcross was convicted of killing 10 women after
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jurors decided he was sane and deliberated for only six and a half hours the judge sentenced him to 25
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years for each count a total of 250 years imprisonment a few months later Shaw cross was taken to Wayne County and
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tried for Elizabeth Gibson's murder rather than claim insanity this time he pled guilty and received a further life
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sentence thank you [Music] foreign [Music] cheers me mateys cheers captain now prison officials said that Arthur
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shawcross complained of a pain in his leg on the afternoon of November 10 2008. he was taken to Albany Medical
00:29:18
Center where he went into cardiac arrest other Shaw cross died that evening at 9
00:29:25
50 pm he was cremated and later his ashes were given to his daughter now before his death there was a
00:29:34
relationship that Arthur shawcross developed a pen pal relationship with a man named John Paul Faye and earlier
00:29:42
this year a book came out called the shaw cross letters which gives an inside look at Arthur shawcross one of
00:29:49
America's most notorious serial killers the shawcross letters is a graphic and dramatic True Crime book that will
00:29:57
horrify Enlighten and keep you up at night author Brian Whitney teamed up with John Paul Faye to write this book
00:30:05
to show us what happens when one of the most evil men in the history of America meets a man he trusts enough to share
00:30:13
his darkest secrets with and on the phone with us here in the garage is John Paul Faye the man that was pen pals with
00:30:21
convicted serial killer Arthur shawcross now John this is kind of interesting because Arthur actually reached out to
00:30:28
you you didn't actually reach out to him well and I ended up with his artwork through
00:30:42
interesting trades I did with uh say Sands of his or quote-unquote groupies and I used to sell very videotapes and
00:30:49
that type of thing like uncut horror movies and uh so when I got those drawings I decided to resell them and uh
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Arthur discovered this and he ended up getting my address from one of his fans believe it or not with whom I've traded
00:31:04
and one day I went to the mailbox and there was a letter from the Sullivan Correctional Facility Arthur sharp
00:31:09
Crossing them of course the first time I was a bit taken aback I went to a quiet
00:31:14
spot to read the letter away from my so-called family members and he had mentioned that he knew I was selling
00:31:19
some of his artwork and all this stuff and I wasn't sure how to take it initially you know I uh you know if I
00:31:25
should feel threatened but so I I just collected myself and I wrote him back a letter it was uh you know a very
00:31:32
gentlemanly letter there's no uh no problems I just said that if you could do more drawings basically you know we
00:31:38
could split the proceeds and go from there and so he got back to me and uh said sure that basically that's a great
00:31:45
idea let's go ahead with that and so we started as he started doing artwork follow me which had resell and let's
00:31:51
split that with I just kind of a money order so then we just uh we developed a friendship from there and it became very
00:31:58
close for I I hate to say it I mean I saw him as a kind of father figure this because
00:32:03
my own life has been so Twisted as far as a male uh role models and it just it got strange obviously it's a deep down
00:32:12
the rabbit hole that type of thing but that's where I live anyway you know I've always um
00:32:17
been a very uh kind of Twisted dark character myself but uh say similar thoughts to a I say a Jeffrey Dahmer
00:32:24
kind of Jeffrey Dahmer 2.0 Dahmer if you were a writer I think but of course I've
00:32:29
come uh very close to engaging those activities myself but I mean I think that that's uh the summary all right so
00:32:37
you uh did hear that correctly you're probably listening and going what I'm more of the Jeffrey Dahmer type what is
00:32:43
John talking about well so he gets some items from Arthur and he's selling them on eBay and then Arthur reaches out to
00:32:53
him and he says hey if you draw some more drawings I can sell these and as they're communicating back and forth
00:33:00
John opens up to Arthur and says hey man I got some dark thoughts that I have yeah it sounds like
00:33:08
John you know has a a troubled past a possibly troubled childhood um that we can ask more questions about
00:33:17
but this leading to alcoholism some drug use and some very dark fantasies to which he's going to confide his thoughts
00:33:27
and feelings with this monster Arthur shawcross who's reached out to him so John you say that a friendship developed
00:33:34
between you and Shaw cross now during the course of this friendship in the beginning stages was it simply just
00:33:41
business as usual for Shaw Cross or was he trying to manipulate you or use you in any way no I never felt manipulated
00:33:49
uh it was a park business and park friendly once he figured out who was the same
00:33:56
type of person I was and I did explain that to him in a letter that you know I really am in a kind of similar position
00:34:02
psychologically then he loosened up and he got very friendly uh after that I mean long after I stopped selling his
00:34:10
artwork because eBay banned it and I was I'm getting along and you know and uh and even that was before we got into the
00:34:17
book so for there was a period there where we just uh there was a letter about every two weeks and he didn't
00:34:22
present himself as a celebrity it was just uh like a friend that we just got into some strange Topics in regard to uh
00:34:30
you know cannibalism and uh murder and all that fun stuff I guess I mean um you know I don't see eye to eye with him
00:34:38
on on everything and I don't necessarily agree on on what he did but I certainly
00:34:43
I understand it as far as identifying with uh serial killers it would be more along the lines of a dollar they say
00:34:50
killing for company that type of thing uh Chicago across himself I consider it more of a destroyer it was more like a
00:34:56
kind of a human Terminator as I put it for some reason we did hit it off was it was beyond uh Way Beyond the business
00:35:02
that was actually a small portion of it our relationship um you know just again just like two
00:35:09
friends talking and you know over a beer or something like that well John I think
00:35:13
uh me and the colonel have different conversations than you and Arthur had John did this ever go beyond just
00:35:19
letters did you ever go meet him in person he uh that was a kind of a contentious deal there because uh
00:35:27
towards the end of our relationship because I told I was supposed to go and meet him up in New York and uh I had
00:35:33
just come back from Arizona investing in a low budget movie and kind of lost in my funds so I was going to take a little
00:35:38
while before I could get up there so when I wrote him telling him I was going to visit he thought that was going to be
00:35:43
right away so he said well I thought I thought you said you were going to visit and he was angry about that I said well
00:35:48
just give me another month or so it's like my funds but uh you know things started falling apart after that that
00:35:54
was again towards the end of our relationship like he was upset that I didn't get to visit him he thought I was
00:36:00
going to come up to see him a lot sooner all right so Shaw cross and Son of Sam were actually in the same prison
00:36:06
together yeah and I heard that Arthur shawcross actually despised David Berkowitz the Son of Sam did he ever
00:36:14
mention that to you John oh he resented him yeah the money that miracle was nice
00:36:18
and money that he did not make sure oh yeah it was just it was resentment Miracles was a little more popular
00:36:27
agency and got more funding funding right now yeah so we could talk about it over the
00:36:33
years there have been several books written about Arthur shawcross and many newspaper and magazine articles was
00:36:39
shawcross keeping tabs on what was written about him was he was he reading his own material yeah absolutely
00:36:46
absolutely did he did a lot of reading in general but he definitely kept up on his own press and uh whatever books were
00:36:53
written about him yes did shawcross ever mention the book The misbegotten Son by
00:36:58
Jack Olson yeah yeah I'm remembering how actually yes he had mentioned Jack Olsen
00:37:04
several times actually he sent me an envelope like with Jack Olsen's return address on it truck Ross had signed you
00:37:10
know so yeah actually I have a an envelope here with uh Jack Olson's address on it believe it or not that I'm
00:37:17
thinking of it John did Arthur ever ask you about females in your life maybe your mother or sister or girlfriend or
00:37:22
somebody uh yeah once in a while he was he would ask what was belong in my life as far as
00:37:28
uh females but uh you know for the most part I was a isolated you know you asked
00:37:34
about my uh cousin Michelle for instance and uh who was actually uh for a period
00:37:40
they're pregnant at the time and he would uh joke about that say for instance uh he never mentioned my mother
00:37:46
or sister or anything but uh yeah definitely like the the focus was on my pregnant cousin Michelle at the time
00:37:53
yeah did he ever ask you to send him things or pictures of these women just a picture of uh her pregnant basically
00:38:03
um which is a copy of them for sure a photo of my cousin Michelle uh showing there's
00:38:10
a her belly there at the time but that was that was more for comedy search really did he ever ask you to send him
00:38:17
anything uh anything weird or anything that would be considered contraband he never requested
00:38:23
anything I sent him stuff that They confiscated but uh yeah he never directly requested anything because he
00:38:29
knew it would be confiscated yeah all right so what we're not going to ask you about that but uh John after you told
00:38:36
shawcross about some of your darker fantasies do you feel like he ever tried to manipulate you or send you encrypted
00:38:44
messages to kind of point you in the direction or push you over the edge and get you to do some of the horrible
00:38:51
things that he has done yeah and I guess a read between the lines kind of ways say things like be good or be good at it
00:38:57
you know and uh we both knew what we were talking about there in that regarding about the pressure points on it where
00:39:04
how to show the person properly along those lines so yeah there you go so the answer is yes he was kind of
00:39:14
teaching me uh I guess how to kill and hurt people you know yeah but do you think he was trying to push
00:39:21
you in that direction he didn't seem to directly want that but he didn't have to be against it either
00:39:28
um you know he knew where I was in my life so he didn't discourage my line of thinking you know it all you know so it
00:39:36
almost seemed like he was encouraging it and whether he meant to or not he he was
00:39:41
and you know talking about how to pick up hitchhikers and again choke them you know beheadings and you know that's uh
00:39:50
all that lovely stuff yeah and of course cannibalism is often a topic of discussion to he and I
00:39:58
how did he uh kind of I guess instructing me on how to properly cook a human being for instance
00:40:05
yeah yeah again I guess a simple answer is uh yeah see in his own way he was a okay
00:40:11
again wasn't discouraging me at all so I know that you guys spoke about cannibalism a lot because that is one of
00:40:20
your dark fantasies a lot of those times when he ate pieces of people it was raw
00:40:27
but uh other times she had mentioned the uh roasting here like calf muscles and uh over Open Flame and uh indulging in
00:40:36
that yeah and basically it was a focused on like the calf muscles and the uh I guess the
00:40:43
buttocks of women in particular yes so he would uh he talked about that quite a bit with me actually he went
00:40:51
back and forth on that and uh I you know I I don't necessarily agree again with his uh type of cannibalism
00:40:59
because his was more a destruction cannibalism uh my interest would be again something like uh absorbing the
00:41:06
person somebody who was affectionate for um assimilation you know kind of a quick
00:41:12
and dirty way to upload a person's soul into your own soul uh his was more uh I'd say barbaric uh mine would be more
00:41:19
uh ritual I suppose I mean my interest anyway how long did your correspondence go on with uh Arthur shawcross
00:41:28
it was my uh a little over five years and it was a wrote a letter every two weeks like I said now there's a article
00:41:34
out there that states that you had said at one point in your life Arthur shawcross was more of a father
00:41:41
figure or maybe even a better Father Figure to you than your own father or males in your life
00:41:49
yes well that's also true the uh male figures in my life has been brutal and ignorance you know in like uh even worse
00:41:58
than short opinion just that well in in a sense in a sense I mean were they I mean they abused uh abused me
00:42:06
growing up in uh in one way or another and basically it was just physical or verbal abuse but uh
00:42:11
my own father he never mentally grew up but he's Vicious he's still basically nine years old mentally but he's
00:42:18
extremely vicious and aggressive and then my surrogate father uh my Uncle Jerry he was a brutal man you know he he
00:42:26
was vicious and violent and so I had no one to really turn to and uh you know he
00:42:31
was like friends they're all Psychopaths and criminals and uh so I mean it was so
00:42:36
bad I ended up seeing a Shaw cross I guess as the lesser of evils as they say you know and I got along with them a
00:42:43
hell of a lot better than the other male figures in my life you know so that's that's how that goes well and John and
00:42:49
just to be clear we're not saying that that Shaw cross is a better person or a better man than these two individuals
00:42:56
we're just simply saying that your correspondence with him he treated you with more respect maybe kindness and
00:43:04
friendship than these others have shown you yeah that's exactly it that's it that's how bad that's what I'm saying
00:43:09
that's how bad the other men were but I just turned to uh one of the worst serial killer cannibals this world ever
00:43:16
known so there you go it's my life what did you know about Shaw cross before he reached out to you well again
00:43:25
see with or identify with you know so I I've been studying say serial killers and
00:43:36
occults uh since I was uh nine or ten years old I started with a Zodiac Killer again so I I was feeling differently
00:43:45
than everybody else I knew it was different and I was just searching for some answers you know so that's the main
00:43:49
reason I got into it so I had read by that time 2000 I had read a couple of books about him uh Jack Olsen's book and
00:43:56
uh Bill Norris material and uh so I I did know about about him I had read a read about him and uh at the very least
00:44:04
it's not seen at least a documentary about him and he discovered you because you were selling things on eBay was
00:44:12
shawcross interested in any of your collections well let's see he was fascinated with the shrunken head
00:44:19
collection um because I I was a again I would be collecting uh I collected truck
00:44:24
and head replica trunk and heads well one was made out of a real human scale apparently but uh yeah collecting those
00:44:30
and he was very interested I don't think he'd be questioning himself he didn't seem like much of a collector type but
00:44:37
he was very interested in it yeah I used to collect the shrunken heads and mummified heads replica mummified heads
00:44:44
so um yeah I've since sold them but uh I'd like to start recollecting at some point yeah I did get to hold a real one
00:44:53
the man I sold him to he actually he had a real authentic one that I got to hold
00:44:58
he has a little Museum as a tattoo parlor that I visited yeah so that was an interesting experience very
00:45:05
interesting day that was a day for a lot of first one yeah it goes to that another time but
00:45:10
yeah what was your takeaway from this pin power relationship with the serial killer
00:45:19
yeah Twisted thing to say but I almost felt uh wanted and accepted that was the main thing that there was someone out
00:45:26
there who would accept me I I guess that's the bottom line I mean that sums it up other than people's
00:45:33
interest in True Crime what are the other reasons to go out and pick up your book yeah it's just that's
00:45:40
a thing it's not meant to be uh gratuitous um and it's not one-dimensional it's not
00:45:44
just uh like I'm just stuck in stagnance at this phase where I'm thinking this way this is about a recovery from it a
00:45:51
recovery some I say purging my Boogeyman uh from this type of thinking and uh as
00:45:57
well as the addictions to alcohol and drugs I mean that's what it's about it's about coming out on the other side of
00:46:03
this at the end of it and if the thing is if somebody else is having either uh these types of thoughts or addictions
00:46:11
the main thing is you have to find someone you trust you could talk to you just talk about it you have to find a
00:46:16
therapeutic way to exercise these demons without hurting anybody that's the main
00:46:20
thing that's what I got to get across I'm not just sitting here drooling and grinning manically like I really this is
00:46:27
about my getting better you know that's the point and I I've improved almost uh 180 degree turn almost maybe it's 130
00:46:34
minutes I'm getting there but yeah this is really I've recovered for the most part
00:46:39
from uh that again that's frequency of thought because I I say um but yeah that's the thing it's really
00:46:47
not meant to be uh you know again something where I'm reveling in the evil it's not that at all you know because
00:46:54
this was therapeutic to write the book this is a therapy for me again you know if you work out these demons in a
00:47:00
diplomatic and healthy away as I could you know that was the main thing you know I had to get it out of my system
00:47:07
foreign [Music] well of course Captain our recommended reading this week is the shaw cross
00:47:26
letters my journey into the mind of Evil by John Paul Faye and Brian Whitney you
00:47:32
can pick that up at Amazon or wherever books are sold I want to thank Brian and John for chatting with us and all of our
00:47:40
recommended readings are on our website so check out True Crime garage.com click
00:47:45
on the recommended page and if you're not listening on the Stitcher app make sure you download it we'll be announcing
00:47:50
something very soon about partnering with them on a cool project all right well thank you Captain very exciting
00:47:56
stuff and thank you to everybody out there until next time be good be kind and don't let it
00:48:15
[Applause] thank you [Music]