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Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks for listening. I'm your host Nick, and
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Today we are drinking MILF from the wonderful people at Mother's Brewing Company in Springfield, Missouri.
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Garage grade four and a half bottle caps out of five. See, Captain, that's what I
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love about the Garage Army. You claimed about a month ago to know a lot of moms,
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and boom, Mother's Brewing Company and a big fan of ours, Julie, slid into action
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and sent us some MILF stout. MILF is a barrel aged stout. 11% ABV. Try Mother's Brewing Company
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MILF stout today, and a big shout out to our True Crime Garage Army. First up, we
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This is True Crime Garage, and this is the case of John Wayne Gacy. In Des Plaines, Illinois, near Chicago,
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a man who served time in prison for sex crimes was let out. Today, they found the bodies of at least three young boys
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buried under his house. He is charged with murder. Here's Jim Cummins. Police have been watching John Gacy's
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suburban Chicago home for the past 10 days. They became suspicious when 15-year-old
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Robert Piest disappeared after he allegedly was last seen with Gacy. This morning, police searched Gacy's
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home and found the decomposed remains of three bodies in a dirt crawl space under
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the house. They suspect there are several more bodies buried here. It's suspected because of the looks of
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the area down in the uh the uh crawl space. Uh There are some other mounds and appears
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to be more there. Gacy is a 36-year-old building contractor who reportedly dressed like a
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clown to entertain at children's parties. Prosecutors say he once went to prison for a sex offense in Iowa.
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This afternoon, Gacy was charged with murdering Robert Piest. And after hearing the remains of more bodies were
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found at Gacy's house, Judge Marvin Peters ordered him held without bond. At the hearing, police said Gacy has
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confessed to the Piest murder. He will be examined by a psychiatrist. Meanwhile, investigators have started to
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dismantle Gacy's house and garage as they continue to search for other bodies in this quiet suburban neighborhood.
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Chicago, Illinois, March 17th, 1942, St. Patrick's Day. Mr. John Gacy and Mrs. Marion Gacy welcomed
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their first son into the world at Edgewater Hospital. They named him after his father. Well, technically, they
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named him after the mother's favorite actor, John Wayne. So, John Wayne Gacy Jr. His father was John Stanley Gacy.
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So, technically, not even a junior. He was the second of three children. His older sister, Joan, was born 2 years
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before him, and 2 years after him was his little sister, Karen. All three attended Catholic schools, and they grew
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up on the northern side of Chicago. John Wayne Gacy was not a particularly popular kid in school, although he got
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along well with his teachers and made friends at school. He was part of the Boy Scouts, and he enjoyed the outdoor
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activities that came with being a part of the Boy Scouts. Now, Gacy's father was pretty hard on
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the children, and Gacy felt that he was abused, mostly emotionally and verbally.
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Mhm. His father often told Gacy that he was a disappointment, that he was dumb, that he was stupid. That he was a [ __ ]
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Yeah. And he would he would even call him some let's say slurs that we will not be
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using on today's episode. Yeah, and it seems to me like John Stanley was very excited to have a boy. Mhm. To
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have John Gacy in the you know, John Wayne Gacy into the family. But, instead of you know, fishing and
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playing sports and stuff like that, he's into gardening. He was into hanging out
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with his mother, hanging out with his sister. And it sounds like John's father, John Sr., was a pretty difficult
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man to be around. Now, I don't know if that if John Gacy Sr. was hard on the two daughters as much as he was on John
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Gacy Jr. Yeah, he he whipped them all a razor belt. Mhm. But I'm I'm guessing that that John
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Wayne Gacy Jr. probably got the worst of it being treated a little bit differently by his crappy father simply
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because he was the only boy. Mhm. Now, in 1951, when John Wayne Gacy was 9 years old, he
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was diagnosed with some kind of heart condition. Um from my understanding, the diagnosis was a non-specific heart
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ailment. Yeah, and they detected this because any you know, he's playing outside with some
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people with some friends at school and he passed out. Well, and this could be part of a a larger problem here because
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a couple years later when when John Gacy was 11 years old, now the story goes like this, he was playing near a swing
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set and he was hit in the head by one of the swings. Now, you would think that this would be a rather small accident.
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However, this is believed to be the cause of a of a blood clot that formed in John Gacy's brain. Um the blood clot
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was not discovered until Gacy was 16. From the age of 11 to the age of 16, Gacy suffered severe headaches and he
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often blacked out. This was caused, believed to be caused by the blood clot, because the blackouts stopped after the
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clot was discovered and Gacy was given medication to to dissolve the blockage in the brain.
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Uh this would be a pretty traumatic experience when you think about it though. You have this young boy who's
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trying to fit in with the other boys and he goes through this period of what, 5 years where he's he's got these
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weird blackouts that would happen from time to time. John Wayne Gacy wasn't doing so well in
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school, which was another big disappointment to his father. So, he actually started taking on a trade. This
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was pretty common back in the day. So, he started working with a printing press. But because as kept on blacking
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out, they said, look, you cannot work on a printing press machine if you're going
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to keep blacking out. Yeah, it's too dangerous. Something horrible could happen to him. Well, he
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was hospitalized several times over the years. This for the blood the blood clot
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and for his heart condition. He was having quite a bit of problems with this. This being in his late school
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years. Gacy was a good student when he was much younger. But maybe because of these
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health problems, it turned out that he ended up not being able to be a good student. Despite the
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medical problems, Gacy was considered a hard worker. He took on a part-time job,
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several part-time jobs after school. He had newspaper routes and he also worked at a grocery store, at one of those IGA
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stores as a bag boy and a stock clerk. That was one of my favorite places to go as a kid.
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We had one here in town and that you would always hope to get a couple bucks from mom and dad so you could buy some
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candy after school. Although Gacy and his father had a lot of problems, as the captain said, John
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Gacy's relationship with his mother and his sisters were very strong. He was extremely close with his mother and his
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sisters. There is rumor and speculation that John Wayne Gacy Sr., that the the father was
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not only abusive but also an alcoholic. There is some suspicion that he physically abused his wife and verbally
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abused all three of the children as well. Well, there's not a lot of suspicion that he was a alcoholic, he
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was an alcoholic. He He ends up dying from cirrhosis of the liver. Well, needless to say that the family had
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problems. Several times John's mother threatened to leave John's father and even though
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John Sr. was an unpleasant individual, John Jr. did seek out attention from his father and he desperately wanted to gain
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his father's approval. Mhm. mean, I think you see that with most boys, you know, they want the they always kind of
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seek the approval of the father more so than the mother, I I would assume. Well,
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and outside of these medical problems, there were some red flags regarding John Wayne Gacy's childhood. And now, these
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are stories that were relayed uh from his mother and his sisters. But, when John was about five or six years old, he
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got in trouble within the family. And uh he had been stealing his mother's undergarments. Mhm. And these these
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undergarments kept disappearing and disappearing. Eventually, they found out that it was John that was taking them.
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Um and he would eventually bury them underneath the house after he stole them from his mother.
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Uh having been caught for this and scolded for it, uh he he didn't do this, you know, whatever bad habit this was,
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he fell out of it for quite a few years. But, when he was about 15 or 16, he started doing something similar. But, it
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wasn't his mother's undergarments. He would steal the undergarments of girls that lived in the neighborhood off of
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the clothing lines. You know, they hang them out to dry. Mhm. And he would steal
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them, and it was discovered that he would bury these underneath the house as well. The old panty snatcher. Now, John
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attended several schools uh several high schools, and he never ended up graduating. Um his father did help him
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out after school um by helping him get his first car. But, it was one of those situations where He helped him out by
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kicking his ass? Well, it was one of those situations where you wonder if John Senior was actually trying to help
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the boy or not, because it it was a situation where it's like, okay, Dad goes and gets the car for John. Mhm. And
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now, John Gacy Jr. has to pay payments to his father. Well, what ends up happening in these situations and I'm
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sure a lot of us have been there, but then dad ends up being in charge of the car. Right. You know, it's something
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that you always has have to ask him if you can use your car to go here or there.
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Um, you know, and he can remind you, "Well, you're behind on your payments." or "It's actually my car. No, you can't
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take it to go here or there." Right, which you have the right to if you bought the car. Yeah, and so this ends
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up to ends up leading to a whole bunch of fights and arguments regarding the vehicle. Well, John decides to run away
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from home, which is a strange thing to say when a person is 18 or 19 years old that they ran away from home, but that's
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how he describes it. And he ran away and he went to Las Vegas. Well, when he gets
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to Las Vegas, this was not a really well-thought-out plan by John Gacy Jr. because he's in a strange town and he
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has no money. What happens while he's there, he ends up going to the hospital. Okay.
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And he's unable to pay the hospital bill. Uh, they wanted him to pay it was something small, you know, $36, which is
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quite a bit more money back then, but he didn't have any money to pay this bill.
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But, this will give you an idea of what kind of personality John Wayne Gacy had was that over the course of discussing
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this bill and during his hospital visit, he ends up getting a job with the hospital.
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Mhm. You know, and that's the kind of personality he had. He was he was the type that they say could talk to
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anybody. And he ended up being to He could talk your panties right off. Or just take them off the clothesline.
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Right. Um, but he ends up getting a job driving an ambulance. Now, he's eventually fired from this job. He
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doesn't have it for very long because they discover that he has no high school diploma, which was of course, you know,
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a requirement for this type of job. Now, he's in a strange town. He doesn't have
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any friends. He doesn't have any family there. Remember, he's very close with his mother and his sisters.
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And he's he's very depressed while he's in Las Vegas. So, the whole time he's in
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Vegas, even though he ran away from home, he's starting to save back a little bit little bit of money so he can
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return to his family and return to his home. I think anytime somebody moves away,
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you know, especially in this situation. He He wants to move away to get away from his father. Mhm.
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But he still wants to impress his father. Right. wants to do something that says, "See,
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old man, I did something." Yeah, and you'll see this when he returns from Las Vegas. When he comes
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home, now this is the early 1960s, he enrolled in a business college and he eventually graduated from this business
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college. So, how did he get into college with no high school diploma? I think some of these schools, if you're
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willing to pay the bill, Right. they'll figure out a way to get you through. So, while at business college,
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he perfected his talent as a salesman. Um and he was a He's what people describe as a natural-born salesman. He
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could talk his way in or out of almost anything. And he put his talents to work when he was hired at his first real job,
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let's call it, after business school when he goes to work for a shoe company. Now, he
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excelled in his position as a management trainee and not too long after he was transferred to manage a men's clothing
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outlet in Springfield, Illinois. And at this time, he's going to actually find a
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girl that's going to put up with him and marry her. Yes, this is September of '64. Gacy met what would be his his
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soon-to-be wife. She was a co-worker. Her name is Marilyn Myers. Mhm. Now, her parents owned a string of Kentucky Fried
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Chicken fast food restaurant franchises in Waterloo, Iowa. Fred Myers is her father,
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uh Gacy's new father-in-law. He offered him a position with one of the franchises.
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Mhm. Soon after that, Gacy and his new wife Well, a and a little quick point here is
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I think, like we talked about, this is a guy that felt like he was a failure and
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wanted to get ahead and wanted to be, you know, s- some kind of status. I mean, where maybe the status was
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actually more important than the actual money. But also, now I met this girl and
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her family actually owns businesses. Yeah, she has successful parents. Right, this could be a good step for my,
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you know, my career. So, the Gacy the young Gacy family, well, Gacy and his wife anyway, are going to move to Iowa
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so he can take one of these positions working for his new father-in-law. Um now, people in the restaurant biz
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know this, restaurant managers work a lot of hours. Yeah. And Gacy was often working 12, 14, 16-hour days.
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But he was a workaholic. Yes. And the plan was that he would learn the business and then take over the
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franchise from his father-in-law someday. Yeah. When Gacy was not working, he was active in the Waterloo,
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Iowa JCs. The JCs is a is a civic organization for people between the ages of 18 and 40. Right. It's a
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not-for-profit organization that's that has like great leadership training, business development, management skills,
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and community service is all involved with your work with the JCs. it's basically a good way to network.
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Mhm. And and to get ahead. And he was really interested. He he actually started a committee, right?
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Mhm. And what was that committee? I want you to say it. I'm not going to say it. W- what was the committee?
00:19:08
It was a it was a don't litter committee. And it was it was all about not littering. He
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hated the litter bugs. I'm sorry. I just I just when when I read that I I just cracked up. But so
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meanwhile, as he's doing this non-littering committee over at KFC, he is demanding that people call him the
00:19:35
Colonel. Yeah. You can't make this stuff up, people. Well, he he like the Captain's saying,
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he worked tirelessly performing volunteer work through with the community through the JCs. It was there
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that he had made most of his friends and he spent most of his free time working with the JCs. Shortly after arriving in
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Iowa, Gacy and his wife, they had their first baby, a son, and they also had a daughter while they were living there.
00:20:05
Right. And his family members would say, you know, this is kind of the first time
00:20:10
that John Stanley Gacy is looking at John Wayne Gacy and saying, "Hey, that's my boy. My boy settled down. My boy has
00:20:17
a job. My boy is supporting his family. He's married. Um, you know, I I think John Stanley Gacy was kind of worried
00:20:28
about his son's sexuality. And so that now the fact that he's married and has kids, it's like, my boy
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is doing good. And actually it was it was kind of the first time that John Stanley was proud of his son.
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Well, and I think regarding the the mother's undergarments and maybe part of the reason why the father was so hard on
00:20:47
him, it it was not outwardly stated by her, but the belief by the family was that he
00:20:53
was wearing these these undergarments. And that might have led his father to believe certain things about his son.
00:21:00
But like you said, now he's he's out on his own. He's working for his his father-in-law and his successful
00:21:08
father-in-law. And he's he's working to build a family. Uh the Gacys John and his wife, they had
00:21:15
every reason to be happy uh during their first few years there in Iowa. They had a nice house in the
00:21:20
suburbs. Uh the kids were healthy. Uh Marilyn, his wife, enjoyed staying at home and taking care of the children.
00:21:27
And John had a good job and he was busy with the JCs. He was even working on a campaign for uh presidency of the local
00:21:36
JC chapter there. Yeah. Uh everything seemed almost too good to be true and in fact we end up learning that it indeed
00:21:43
it was. Um everything seemed to be looking good for John Wayne Gacy Jr. yet his lucky
00:21:50
streak would not last too much longer. Well, and I don't know if it was just a luck
00:21:56
streak as much as I think he had these desires or thoughts inside of him that he was now becoming not able to control.
00:22:05
Yeah, and there was some thoughts that that John Wayne Gacy might be homosexual.
00:22:10
Um this is kind of stemming from from some of the young guys working at the KFC restaurant.
00:22:17
Right. Uh they say that he is making passes at them um during work hours and while
00:22:23
working with with Gacy at the fast food chain. Um yet people close to him, you know, refused to believe the gossip.
00:22:32
Right. Well, here's a married man with with two kids. And at the same time that you have this going on at the Kentucky
00:22:38
Fried Chicken restaurant, you also have rumors spreading around town amongst the
00:22:43
JC members regarding Gacy's sexual preference. Mhm. Um and you know, there always seemed to be young boys, uh young
00:22:52
men were always in Gacy's presence. Right, but there's a couple odd things that are happening here. Okay, so
00:23:00
John Wayne Gacy is in charge of recruiting people and he would stop at nothing to recruit these people for the
00:23:06
JC and like we said it's this community organization and it's supposed to be about networking and helping the
00:23:12
community and John Wayne Gacy decides, well, I'll rent a hotel and I'll start showing these recruits illegal
00:23:22
pornography tapes. Or stag films, yeah. Right, so that then turns into not only are we going to
00:23:29
watch these tapes but we're going to hire prostitutes and have orgies. Mhm. So that's going on the whole time people
00:23:38
of this town of power are having these these orgy parties. And he's also starting at this point to to
00:23:48
swing with his wife as well. So you you got a lot of weird stuff going on. So but then the rumors about you know,
00:23:58
the JC starts saying, hey, well, we know he's doing some of this stuff but we're doing it too. The odd stuff is
00:24:05
that he's hanging around a lot of young boys. Mhm. Well, in with a lot of these organizations,
00:24:12
um the way that you can rise to the top very very quickly is by recruiting numbers and if you can recruit more
00:24:19
members than anybody else, then you become very popular and a person of power within inside that organization.
00:24:26
And on top of that if you recruited that person and then you have also this information to hang over their head.
00:24:33
Mhm. Oh, you know, you might I might not want to you know, rub me the wrong way because
00:24:38
you don't want me telling your wife about this. Well, and Gacy was getting large numbers of recruits like almost
00:24:44
unheard of numbers of recruits and it's believed that because he threw these wild crazy parties that a lot of these
00:24:51
people were signing up just to be part of these parties not so much to be really truly involved with the
00:24:56
organization itself. Now, in the spring of 1968, um Gacy ends up being indicted on
00:25:04
charges of sodomy. Now, in most jurisdictions, sodomy is a pretty broad, vague charge. The precise sexual acts
00:25:12
meant by the term sodomy are rarely spelled out in law, but are understood by courts to include any sexual act
00:25:19
deemed to be unnatural or immoral. Um now, there's there's two sides to this particular sodomy charge. Uh they they
00:25:28
go down here. Um do you want to give Yeah, so basically, the victim's accounts of the story is they're hanging
00:25:35
out with John Wayne Gacy, hanging out at John's house. John shows him a stag film,
00:25:40
and then gives him some alcohol. This would lead to some sexual advances. Mhm. Um you know, we we know the victim's
00:25:48
name, but we're not going to say it out of respect to them. So, obviously, there's this very inappropriate exchange
00:25:55
between adult male and basically a teenage boy. Mhm. The teenage boy just kind of lives with it
00:26:02
and doesn't tell anybody, and Gacy actually pays him, I think, 50 bucks, and also tells him, "Hey, by the way, I
00:26:08
have connections with the mob. So, if you want to you want to talk about this, uh you're going to be in for
00:26:14
some trouble, right?" Mhm. So, the boy starts acting strange, and eventually breaks down to his parents.
00:26:22
The problem with this is his father is is high up with the JCs, but just high up as a public
00:26:29
figure. Well, and some of those things align with with the version of the story that I'm going to tell. Now, this is
00:26:36
according to John Wayne Gacy, by the way. We'll throw that out there, and that's that's primarily why we're not
00:26:41
going to use this young man's name. But according to Gacy, the young man was uh homosexual young man, uh who didn't mind
00:26:49
having sex with men for money or sexual favors with men for money. Now, Gacy says that the two of them were involved,
00:26:58
that they would get together often, and for some reason the two ended up in a dispute about money, and that the
00:27:05
young man went to law enforcement and said that Gacy had forced him into some kind of sexual act. Gacy is picked up
00:27:13
for this. He denies all of the charges against him. Later, Gacy was charged with an additional charge with hiring a
00:27:22
another boy to beat up his accuser. Gacy offered some money to another young man
00:27:28
so that the young man could pay off his car loan, and in exchange he was going to beat up this kid. And the way that
00:27:34
this story goes down is that the the hired young man, he gets the kid into his car, he drives him to a wooded area
00:27:43
where he sprays him in the face and eyes with mace, and then he he tries to beat
00:27:48
him up. However, the boy he fights back, and he ends up breaking the boy's nose, and he manages to get
00:27:55
away. He then calls police and lets them know that he was attacked by this other
00:28:00
boy. So, when this boy is picked up and taken into police custody, he then, in exchange, gives them John
00:28:08
Wayne Gacy's name again, explaining that, you know, I was hired to attack this kid. Ultimately, the judge in this
00:28:15
situation sentenced John Wayne Gacy to 10 years in Iowa State Reformatory for Men, the maximum time that you are
00:28:23
allowed to give for this such offense. John Wayne Gacy was 26 years old at this time. Now, shortly after Gacy entered
00:28:31
prison, his wife divorced him on the grounds that he had violated their marriage vows. Now, while in prison, he
00:28:38
was he was considered a model prisoner. He remained non-violent and well-behaved, and he hoped for
00:28:45
Well, he was a plus-size model prisoner. And he hoped for an early parole. And after 18 months later, well, John Wayne
00:28:53
Gacy, his parole is approved. We'll get right back to the sick and twisted mind of John Wayne Gacy after this quick beer
00:29:00
break. All right, we're back. All right, cheers mates. And so John Wayne Gacy was living
00:29:16
in Iowa. He sentenced to 10 years in prison for sodomy charges. Mhm. And after only 18 months in prison, well,
00:29:24
they let John Wayne Gacy go. In June of 1970, John Wayne Gacy left prison and he
00:29:30
wanted to return to, well, just like Robert Johnson first said and later the Blues Brothers,
00:29:36
he returned to sweet home Chicago. Now, John Wayne Gacy never ended up having the type of relationship that he
00:29:42
desired with his father. Mhm. And he never got a chance to rectify that situation after getting out
00:29:48
of prison because John's father passed away during his time in prison. This affected John big time. I think
00:29:56
maybe because when John's dad dies, well, John is in prison and for sodomy charges, too. So, in a sense, isn't John
00:30:05
the homosexual stupid loser that his father always told him that he would be and that he was? Mhm. I think John
00:30:13
wanted to do something with his life to prove to his father that he wasn't stupid, that he wasn't a loser.
00:30:20
And maybe win his father's approval and affection at some point in his life. Right. And And he had that for a small
00:30:27
period. Mhm. With the family and everything, but now that's that's all wiped away. So, John Wayne Gacy moved
00:30:33
home. He moved in with his mother and obtained work as a chef in a Chicago restaurant. Uh Uh, a job that he seemed
00:30:41
to enjoy and he worked at it with quite a bit of enthusiasm. Right. And after a few months of living
00:30:46
with his mother, Gacy decided he wanted to buy a house, and his mother had been impressed with how he had adjusted to
00:30:53
life outside of the prison, and she decided to help him get a house. Now, this would be located just outside of
00:30:59
Chicago's city limits. And all of his family claimed that after John Wayne Gacy got out of prison, he had this
00:31:06
insatiable drive to be something and become something. Yeah, and it was in 1971 when John Wayne Gacy met Carol Huff. Um,
00:31:17
she was newly divorced mother of two. Well, hold on. Not to correct you, but that's not when they met. They were They
00:31:23
were friends from childhood, basically. School School friends. Well, they they they became engaged at some point, and I
00:31:30
believe this took place at some point in 1971. Uh, they weren't married until the
00:31:35
following year, but Carol Huff was a newly divorced mother of two. She had two daughters. Right. Um, you know,
00:31:42
you know, after the fact, people say that Gacy probably romanced uh, this woman who was in a state of emotional
00:31:49
vulnerability. Um, and that she she fell for him. She she says that she was attracted to Gacy's charm and his
00:31:56
generosity. Well, he's a hard worker. And she believed he would be a good provider for her and her children. She
00:32:02
was aware of Gacy's prison experience, um, yet she trusted that uh, he had changed his life around for the better.
00:32:10
Uh, and Carol and her daughters quickly settled into their new home with John Wayne Gacy. Well, and she also knew
00:32:17
about what he claimed to be uh, him being bisexual. It was around this same time that John Wayne Gacy
00:32:25
decided he wanted to go into business for himself. Um, and he was going to strike it out on his own. He began a
00:32:32
contracting business named PDM Inc., which stood for painting, decorating, and maintenance incorporated. Uh he
00:32:39
hired young teenage boys to work for him. He told his friends that he hired such young men to keep the cost low,
00:32:47
uh which is which is true. He could hire and pay guys that were 15 to 18 years old and pay them $5 an hour,
00:32:54
Right. which was almost double what kids could make at other jobs at that time. He
00:33:00
could pay them well, and at the same time he would be paying them quite a bit less than he would have to pay an adult
00:33:07
with a good amount of experience. However, that might not have been Gacy's only reason for hiring these teenage
00:33:15
boys. Well, I mean, and we and we've kind of gone back and forth on this um because a lot of these documentaries,
00:33:21
when they talk about Gacy, they never bring up the idea of pedophilia, really. You know, it's always just talks about,
00:33:28
you know, that he was attracted to teenage boys. Or young men. They Most of the time they say young men.
00:33:35
Yeah, and it and I think one, at the time of all this stuff going around, this is not a
00:33:40
commonly used term. Pedophilia did not become a commonly commonly used term until the '80s.
00:33:48
Mhm. Um and probably the late '80s. Well, and we talked about that when we covered the Johnny Gosch case. You know,
00:33:54
that the investigators were using the word pedophilia or pedophile, and parents were saying they didn't know
00:34:01
what that term meant. They had not heard that term before, and this was taking place in the early '80s. And this was
00:34:07
different times. I mean, there was a lot of people that there's a lot of people that did not even finish high school.
00:34:12
They'd just go straight to work. Mhm. So, we were kind of talking earlier about how maybe they don't use the term
00:34:18
pedophilia because back then, you know, 17 18-year-old boy is back then was a man. Could have been
00:34:29
looked at as in the public's eye as a man because, you know, it seems to me like you have this
00:34:35
you have this mindset that that maybe, of course, 18 is the separation. You know, 18 is the legal divider between a
00:34:43
child and an adult. However, but in the public's eye, in the you know, the general consens- consensus I got was
00:34:52
that a man and a boy were more separated by a high school diploma rather than being 18 because, like you said, a lot
00:34:59
of times people would get that high school diploma and they would go work for their father in their father's
00:35:03
business or they would go off on a trade. Uh they would start their own business. They would go into some form
00:35:09
of work that could end up being their career, their adult life. Yeah, I think you see this a lot lot like with movies
00:35:15
like Dazed and Confused and stuff like that. You graduated high school. It is time. You're entering the real world.
00:35:22
It's time to become a man. Mhm. Well, the Gacys threw a lot of parties. Uh and when it came to parties,
00:35:30
well, John Wayne Gacy, he was the man. He he knew what to do. He knew how to throw a great party. Uh he would often
00:35:36
host block parties and yard parties. A lot of them were were themed parties. Um you know, he did some things like um
00:35:44
I think he did like a Western-style party and a Southern Jubilee and a Hawaiian party. Uh so, these big
00:35:50
extravagant parties that he would throw. And anyway, at Gacy's parties, he always
00:35:55
had a lot of booze, poker games, you know, maybe some pot. And remember we said that he was a member of the JCs.
00:36:04
Well, this is something that carried on once he moved back to Chicago. He was a member of the JCs, but he was also a
00:36:11
member of the Democratic Party as well. Yeah, so uh Ted Bundy was a Republican and John Wayne Gacy was a Democrat. So,
00:36:20
that's why I'm an independent. But Gacy was able to get more people to sign up for the JCs and more people to
00:36:28
sign up for the Democratic Party than anyone else in the area. And he was up to his old tactics.
00:36:35
Uh he was he was even given some awards, you know, like man of the year awards and things like that.
00:36:40
Mhm. And you know, he did this uh for his work with the JCs, but but also with the Democratic Party. He was throwing
00:36:51
these extravagant parties, but they were also those parties that we talked about
00:36:54
before. Right. You know, where the stag film Yeah, it was a lot of booze, maybe some
00:36:59
pot, some gambling, but it would end up with these stag films, maybe hire some strippers, uh some sometimes escorts and
00:37:06
things like that. Yeah, and this let's put this into perspective a little bit. This is
00:37:11
people in the community getting together, people of power in the community getting together, and being
00:37:16
persuaded by stag films. Yeah, and other foolishness. Right. I mean, it's it's that stuff exist. Yeah.
00:37:25
That's to me is creepy as hell. It's weird. And it but again, for Gacy, it's ways to get his membership enrollment
00:37:31
up. Um and and to me, it also shows that some of these newcomers, these newbies,
00:37:38
seem to be there, in my opinion, more for these crazy parties rather than to actually be involved in the community
00:37:43
itself. Yeah, these animals are probably littering everywhere. Well, it's around
00:37:48
this same time that John Wayne Gacy unleashed his new creation, uh Pogo the Clown. He he he becomes a
00:37:55
clown. And I know at different parts during his little clown experiment or whatever he was doing,
00:38:02
that that he did go under different names, but I believe Pogo the Clown is the most accepted one that that he, you
00:38:09
know, fancied himself. Yeah, most popular one. But hey, Gacy, put on your cup, son. Put on your cup.
00:38:16
Well, uh he, like I said, he unleashed his new creation of Pogo the Clown. Get John Wayne Gacy was a clown. I'm going
00:38:24
to unleash a punch to your nuts. He entertained children at parties and even volunteered at local hospitals, you
00:38:31
know, to try to cheer up the kids. And and maybe it's just because what we know now about John Wayne Gacy, but looking
00:38:40
at those pictures, I mean, other than him being fat, you know, other than him being a a pudgy guy,
00:38:47
prison model. he still he still a creepy-looking clown to me. I don't know if it's Again, I don't know if it's cuz
00:38:54
we know about him or if Well, one of the things that I noticed was, you know, the mouth, what the way
00:39:01
he painted the mouth, that most clowns paint circular mouths. Uh And his head points. Yeah, he had
00:39:07
points at the end. Mhm. Uh Yeah, you'd think but, you know, and look, you'd think, you know, weight aside, you
00:39:16
think that maybe, you know, Santa Claus is jolly, Mhm. right? So that maybe it would be a jolly clown, but I think
00:39:22
because of the points on the mouth is really kind of what gave it away. And also, you know, John Wayne had these um
00:39:31
these pointy eyebrows, Mhm. you know, just that he he inherited. So, I think those those two elements is kind
00:39:39
of what makes Pogo a little creepo. Mhm. Well, and before we get too far down on
00:39:46
another road, let's go ahead and go through this portion of John Wayne Gacy's life. Him and his wife start
00:39:53
having marital problems. And it's believed that some of this stemmed from her picking up on Gacy's homosexual
00:40:01
desires. Mhm. Now, we had said earlier that, you know, she was aware of his prison
00:40:06
sentence. Well, he was aware she was aware of his bisexuality. Yeah. And he's prob- she's probably aware of his
00:40:13
version of his prison sentence and why he was guilty. Right. But yeah, she's aware that he he is
00:40:20
bisexual. But at the same time, you know, she's also finding magazines around the house with lots of naked men
00:40:28
in them, books about gay fantasies, and he's very casual nonchalant about kind of leaving these all over the house and
00:40:36
in almost every room of the house as well. But at the Well, and I don't think that
00:40:41
matters if it's, you know, homosexual thoughts or just heterosexual thoughts. I think if you're with somebody
00:40:48
there's a lot of times that you'd be offended. You know, like if you're just you know, there's Playboy magazines
00:40:54
everywhere. I think at some point your wife might go, "Hey, can you just pick this up? Yeah.
00:40:59
you have got to throw it in my face like this?" Well, you have to show respect for your
00:41:03
spouse as well as there's the children that are in the house as well. You know, you can't just you shouldn't just be
00:41:09
having these things laying around. But at the same time, he's also becoming a little more violent. His his personality
00:41:18
is changing as far as she is concerned. And at this point he's yelling a lot. He's he's even throwing furniture at
00:41:26
times when he gets upset. He's becoming his father. Yes, this sort of thing is what's going on. And it
00:41:33
eventually Carol would file for divorce. The the couple's divorce became final in
00:41:40
1976. So, yeah, drinking is getting heavier. Mhm. He's becoming more violent. Uh he's having more sexual desires.
00:41:50
And this is all going to come to a big flame. Yeah, and the two of them have basically
00:41:55
no romance between the two of them for quite some time as well. Now, I wanted to go down that road before we we got to
00:42:02
this because we're going to start the romance road? Yeah. Oh, okay. I love you, Captain. Now, we're going to start
00:42:08
talking and introducing some new people here. But these are certainly key persons to this story and to this case.
00:42:16
And the first one that I want to introduce is 17-year-old Johnny Butkovich. I think he's been waiting all
00:42:22
day to say that name. Old Butkovich. but anyway, Johnny worked for John Wayne Gacy. That's my last name.
00:42:28
And in fact Captain Butkovich. In fact, they worked a lot of hours together and they even
00:42:33
hung out together off of the clock. Yeah. at one point, they are around each other
00:42:38
so much and so often that people started referring to them as Big John and Little
00:42:44
John. And Johnny, or Little John to some, was like most young men. He was He was into
00:42:50
cars. He took great pride in his '68 Dodge. Mhm. Uh not only did he drive it and race it, but he was always working
00:42:59
on the vehicle as well. And having this job allowed him to, you know, work on this vehicle and spend some money on his
00:43:06
car. Uh Johnny did remodeling work for Gacy at PDM Contractors, uh position that he enjoyed, a position that paid
00:43:14
him well. And you also have your boss that's probably getting you booze. Mhm. And you couldn't get booze at the time.
00:43:20
Mhm. You know, so everybody knows, you know, when you're 19, 20 and you're trying to get some booze, everybody
00:43:26
knows their 21 or 22-year-old friend that would get them booze. Right. Right? You keep that contact close. Right. Even
00:43:34
as close as they were, however, their their working relation- relationship ended abruptly when Gacy refused to pay
00:43:41
Johnny for two weeks worth of work. Right. Um angered at Gacy, uh and angered that
00:43:47
he had withheld his pay, Johnny went over to his boss's house. This was with two friends to try to scare Gacy and to
00:43:55
try to collect his money. Um when Johnny confronted Gacy about the paycheck, Gacy refused to pay him. And
00:44:03
now, of course, we have a large argument. Johnny threatened that he was going to tell the authorities that John
00:44:10
Wayne Gacy was not deducting taxes from the earnings. Gacy was enraged and he screamed at him
00:44:17
and we have this big fight going on. But what ends up happening is Johnny and his
00:44:22
friends basically realized that there wasn't a whole lot that they could do about this situation. And they
00:44:28
eventually you're kind of [ __ ] out of luck at this point. Yeah, he's just not going to give you
00:44:32
any money. Mhm. And at the end of the day they end up leaving Gacy's house. Johnny dropped off his friends at their
00:44:40
homes and he drove away. And then he's never seen alive again. But later on we'll have a
00:44:47
odd explanation of this story coming from Gacy himself. Yes. The next person we want to talk about is Michael Bonnin.
00:44:54
Now, he was about 17 years old as well. And he disappeared in June of '76. This is a situation where he was supposed to
00:45:02
catch a train. He was going to meet his step-father's brother at some location. Mhm. Authorities are not certain that
00:45:10
Michael ever got on that train. But they know that he never made it to meet his step-father's brother. He just
00:45:18
simply disappeared. He's not seen after that. Right. And now in the same area we have
00:45:23
a we have more boys going missing. Yes. The next boy is Billy Carroll Jr. He's the kind of kid that was always
00:45:32
getting into trouble at the age of Billy At the age of nine, he was in a juvenile home for stealing a
00:45:39
purse. Mhm. At the age of 11, he was caught with a gun and he got into more trouble. Now, Billy in and out of
00:45:47
trouble his whole life. He spent most of his time on the streets in Uptown Chicago. Now, at the age of about 16,
00:45:53
Billy was making money by arranging meetings between teenage boys and adult clientele for money.
00:46:01
That's definitely putting him in a compromising position. Yes, because I don't know if it was because of Billy's
00:46:08
little business that he had, but he knew John Wayne Gacy. And ultimately, just like Johnny and Michael that we just
00:46:14
spoke of, Billy also disappeared suddenly. This was on June 13th of 1976. Billy left his home and he was never
00:46:22
seen alive again. Do we have any other boys that went missing? We have Gregory Godzik. Um he actually had a job with
00:46:30
PDM Inc. Uh he worked for for John Wayne Gacy. And he didn't mind the odd jobs that he was picking up or the work that
00:46:38
he would do. But on December 12th, 1976, uh Gregory dropped his date off at her home. A girl that he had had a crush on
00:46:48
for some time and had been seeing her for a little bit. And he drove off, she says, in the direction of his house. Um
00:46:55
but the following day, police found Gregory's car. This was a 1966 Pontiac. But Gregory was nowhere to be found. Um
00:47:04
he was he was 17 years old at the time. In January of 1977, 19-year-old John Seac
00:47:12
also disappeared, much like the other young men before him. He had driven off in his 1971 Plymouth Satellite, and he
00:47:20
was never seen alive again. But interestingly enough, a short while after the young man vanished, another
00:47:27
teenager was picked up by police in a 1971 Plymouth Satellite while trying to leave a gas station without paying for
00:47:36
the gasoline. Right. The young man was a one Michael Rossi and said that the man
00:47:43
that he worked with could explain the situation. This being the situation with the vehicle. Right. Uh the man that he
00:47:50
worked with was John Wayne Gacy. And when police met with Gacy, Gacy explained to the police that Zeke had
00:47:58
sold him the car, sold John Wayne Gacy the car, and that John Zeke wanted to run away and he needed some money to
00:48:06
take off and to get set up elsewhere. So, he sold John Wayne Gacy the car before he hitchhiked out of town.
00:48:14
Gacy then went on to explain that he gave the car to his employee Michael Rossi in trade for some labor. So,
00:48:21
rather than paying him for a bunch of work that Rossi did, he ended up giving him the car. Well, I don't think a lot
00:48:27
of this stuff would have happened if he was like on a sexual offender website, you know.
00:48:33
Yeah, some kind of registry. Right, because all this stuff that happened in Iowa is not carrying over to Chicago.
00:48:40
No, it so we don't really have that on his record. And obviously, cops are getting
00:48:45
a little suspicious at this point. Mhm. Well, and and the thing we've seen with Gacy, too, is yeah, there might be
00:48:51
some people that are aware of this sodomy charge that that he had in Iowa or aware that he spent some time in
00:48:58
prison. Because the thing with Gacy is he liked to not only did he like to talk to people, but he also liked to lie and
00:49:04
embellish stories about himself. So, I could see him possibly telling some of these
00:49:10
17, 18-year-old boys that yeah, you know, you know what kind of I'm a real man. I've been to prison before, you
00:49:16
know. Um oh, what were you But now you got to answer the question, well, what were you
00:49:19
in prison for? And um I'm a real man because I like real boys. Yeah, but but then you get the John
00:49:26
Wayne Gacy version of why he was in prison, you know, embellishing and probably just lying about the situation.
00:49:33
Uh we also have Robert Gilroy. Um he was an avid outdoorsman, uh camper. He loved horseback riding. On
00:49:42
September of 1977, uh he's 18 years old at this time. Gilroy was supposed to catch a bus with
00:49:50
uh some friends to go horseback riding, but he never shows up for this event. Now, Gieroy's father That's like the
00:49:56
second one that was trying to catch a bus. Yeah, Gieroy's father is a police sergeant, a Chicago police sergeant at
00:50:03
the time, and he immediately began searching for his son, and they un- unleashed a full-scale investigation
00:50:10
with big-time searches. Uh you know, even though they did all this effort, nothing turned up, and when the leads
00:50:18
stopped coming in, Robert Gieroy was still missing. While this is all going on, John Wayne Gacy has an employee by
00:50:24
the name of David Cram. Right. Well, according to the documentary, the guy's name is David Cram. Now, let's talk
00:50:32
about this for a little bit. Cuz you know, we both watched a bunch of docos on him.
00:50:39
And uh there's just some facts that are just not lining up. Right. Some of the names Some of Some of the
00:50:47
stories are the same, but some of the names aren't the same. Well, it You know what I wonder about
00:50:53
that, Captain, is when you when you watch some of these documentaries, okay? First of all,
00:50:57
a a John Wayne Gacy documentary, there's a whole batch of them out there. I mean,
00:51:03
there's a ton of them out there. But But they're typically what? Like 40 minutes
00:51:07
to maybe 1 hour long. This is a much longer and much necessary to be longer story to tell than 40 minutes or an hour
00:51:17
long. There's a whole lot more of a story here. And the thing that I worry about with some of these documentaries,
00:51:23
we've seen it in other ones, you know, that we see on Netflix and Amazon Prime and things like that.
00:51:29
Sometimes they lump some of these stories together. Right. And so, names get mis- you know,
00:51:35
they get mashed together, timelines get a little bit blurry. Um So So, this story could be coming
00:51:41
from David, or it could be coming from It could be coming from I used the name Michael Rossi earlier. Now the thing
00:51:49
here is Captain, um you know the story with Gacy gets even more convoluted because he lived in Iowa
00:51:55
for a while and then he lived in Chicago for a while and a lot of the stuff that
00:51:59
he did he did in both places in both locations. So that makes it more confusing but when you watch there's one
00:52:06
documentary in particular where they name this character David Cram. Now mind you he is it's one of those situations
00:52:13
you know they put the light behind him he's sitting in a chair his face is kind of darkened out you can't see his face
00:52:19
real well and then they just kind of they flash this name David Cram. Well his story goes like this so whether it's
00:52:26
David or if it's this Rossi character Or or some other name altogether. Right. The the story is that the crawl space
00:52:34
Mhm. He is originally hired to dig trenches in this crawl space. He doesn't know why. Now what can happen in like a
00:52:43
half basement if you have a crawl space you can dig out that crawl space and then make your basement a full basement.
00:52:50
That's a very tough thing to do but you can do that. So he doesn't really know why he's
00:52:54
digging these trenches in this crawl space but he does. There there is actually depending on who
00:53:00
you talk to there's a few different stories as to why Gacy wanted these trenches
00:53:06
dug in this crawl space. Right. So One of the stories being that they're they were going to insert some kind of
00:53:12
pipes Right. that were going to go down and they needed the trenches for pipes. The other
00:53:16
story being that there was a foul odor that was in the house and that Gacy was telling people that it was coming from
00:53:24
this crawl space because it would typically get saturated with water Right. and water would just kind of sit in
00:53:30
there and it would just it would unleash this foul odor throughout the entire home and he was trying to rid the house
00:53:37
of this of this structural problem that was going on. Right so this kid is you know, he's like
00:53:42
16 years old, 17 years old, digging these trenches in the crawl space of uh John Wayne Gacy's house.
00:53:50
Eventually, he rents a room from him. So, he would come home and and he he lived there for a short period of time
00:53:58
working for for John and doing maybe probably working in the community for other people as well.
00:54:03
But, one night he comes home and and this this I think super creepy. He comes home and John is sitting there
00:54:13
in his Pogo outfit. Mhm. You know, dressed full clown getup. And he's drinking. He's like, "Hey, join
00:54:20
me. Let's have some drinks. Let's smoke some pot." And Gacy was a big By this point,
00:54:26
he's probably a pretty big drinker. Um you know, I'd heard stories that he would drink full glasses of vodka and
00:54:33
things like that. Right. So, he he's he's pretty wasted already. He's lit. And David is drinking with him.
00:54:43
And he brings out these handcuffs. And he's kind of showing him a trick like how he Here's how you put on the
00:54:50
handcuffs and here's how you get out of it. Like, you remember how we talked about
00:54:54
like when you're a kid, you have the fake handcuffs? Mhm. And then you have these little like little switch on them
00:54:59
on the side so you can just push that little lever and it opens up. So, we kind of talked about that he
00:55:04
probably had two sets of handcuffs. And he probably had a trick handcuff like, "Here.
00:55:10
See, watch me. I put on the handcuffs and look, I can get out of it. Mhm. You try them on."
00:55:16
So, when he goes to try them on, he can't get out of it. And he said, "Well, how do you get out of this thing?" He
00:55:22
goes, "Well, you got to know the trick." He goes, "Well, what's the trick?" He said, "Well, the trick is you got to
00:55:28
have a key. Right?" And he starts laughing. So, he's sitting there in his full clown getup,
00:55:34
right? Just laughing like a little kid. Like, "Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
00:55:38
I got you. I got you. And now at this point he's poking him. Poking him. I got you. You can't get out. Just acting like
00:55:46
a kind of a crazy person. So, this individual that is tied up, he then says, you know, you got to let me out, you
00:55:55
know. And he's still being nice at this point. They're still kind of playful. Yeah, John's being weird, dancing around
00:56:03
with the polka outfit on. But this guy eventually says, hey look, you got to let me out or I'm going to
00:56:08
kick your ass. And this sets Gacy into a rage. Right? So now he is fighting basically for his life against Gacy,
00:56:21
but he's in handcuffs. And he basically is able to, because Gacy is so intoxicated, he's able to
00:56:30
knock Gacy over, grab the key, run to the room that he's renting, get himself out, he leaves, and a couple
00:56:39
days later moves out um of John Wayne Gacy's house. The crazy thing to me is could you
00:56:46
imagine a big, you know, Gacy wasn't tall, but he was a bigger guy. He was He was short and stocky.
00:56:56
Right. Yeah, but still a lot of mass, and he's drunk, and he goes into a rage, and that's not the creepy part. The
00:57:04
creepy part is you're in handcuffs. Yeah. You know, I don't mind uh punching you in your face, John Wayne
00:57:12
Gacy, if if you know, but if my hands are tied behind my back, I'm [ __ ] out of luck.
00:57:18
You know, good luck fighting that fight. Yeah. It's just every time I hear that story, I've heard it maybe three or four
00:57:24
times, but every time I hear it, it's just always just uh hands get a little sweaty.
00:57:29
Mhm. Well, here here's another creepy story for you here, Captain. And this took
00:57:34
place in May of 1978, I'm sorry. Chicago, Illinois. A man by the name of Jeff Ringnal. Now, he had
00:57:43
recently returned from a vacation to Florida. He decided to visit an area called Newtown. It's a popular area of
00:57:51
Chicago because he wanted to check out some of the many popular bars they had there as well as disco clubs. In that
00:57:58
area. Now, while bar hopping and walking through the area, he sees a black Oldsmobile.
00:58:06
Now, inside the vehicle is a heavy set driver. And the driver leaned out from the window and he's complimenting
00:58:14
this young man on his unseasonably, you know, how unseasonably tan he is. And this sparks up a conversation. And
00:58:23
they continued with some small talk and eventually the driver then asked if Jeff
00:58:27
wanted to smoke a joint and ride around in his car and they'd just ride around town and smoke a couple joints. Well,
00:58:34
this sounded like a good idea to Jeff, so he hopped in the car. This sounds like an awful idea. They
00:58:40
drive off. They're talking, they're smoking, driving around when all of a sudden the
00:58:46
heavy set driver attacks Jeff. He grabbed him and quickly shoved a rag over his face. Now, the rag was dosed
00:58:55
with chloroform. Jeff lost consciousness. Now, Jeff was kind of going in and out of
00:59:01
consciousness for quite some time. At one point while he was awake, he could see street signs and, you know,
00:59:09
the car still moving. And he's trying to see these street signs and try to figure
00:59:14
out where the car is going, maybe where he's being taken to. One, he doesn't know this area. Right.
00:59:20
And and of course, he would only be awake for a short period of time, for a short little
00:59:25
spurts of time before blacking out again. On one of these times that he came to, the stranger again grabbed him
00:59:34
and covered up his face with this chloroform-soaked rag. Right. And he passed out again. At some point, Jeff
00:59:41
remembers being inside of a home. And the driver was there, and they both are naked. At one point, Jeff remembered
00:59:51
seeing on the floor several several dildos. And the stranger Oh, [ __ ] was threatening him and telling him
01:00:00
how he was going to use them. Uh Jeff No. was viciously raped and tortured for hours. Um and
01:00:09
but thank God that he had been drugged and knocked out for most of it. Now, the next morning, Jeff awoke from
01:00:18
uh from these blackouts. But but when he wakes up, he's now fully clothed, and he's propped up against a statue in
01:00:27
Chicago's Lincoln Park. He was in in a lot of pain. Right. An amazing amount of pain. And he went to the
01:00:36
hospital, where he ended up staying there for 6 days. Jesus Christ. Now, during this hospital
01:00:42
stay, Jeff reported the abduction and the rape to police, but he could only provide the police with a little
01:00:50
information regarding the attack because he was blacking out over and over again.
01:00:55
Mhm. Um he he could recall the vehicle, a black Oldsmobile. He gave them a description of the
01:01:02
heavy-set man that was driving the vehicle. And he could tell them basically useless information about some
01:01:09
of the details of the inside of the house, like the the color of the carpeting or patterns on the carpeting.
01:01:16
Right. You're in that city of Chicago. Yeah, and here's the thing. This is this, you
01:01:21
know, you're in a whole lot of pain. You're in the hospital for 6 days. That should explain to most of us how
01:01:28
how beaten up this guy was. He's in the hospital for 6 days, and you're giving this report, and you can you you're
01:01:35
probably mad at yourself because you can only remember little bits of information.
01:01:40
And the police basically they they outwardly tell Jeff that they were not hopeful that they
01:01:48
would be able to find the guy that did this, let alone convict him of anything, because because really they didn't have
01:01:56
any information or much to confirm who this abductor could be. Jeff suffered several skin lacerations,
01:02:04
burns, and he also suffered from permanent liver damage believed to be caused from
01:02:10
the the chloroform. And of course he suffered severe emotional trauma as well. Well,
01:02:17
obviously. But he was he was fortunate enough to be alive because what what Jeff didn't know was
01:02:25
that the man who attacked and raped him, well, not many of the people escaped that man. And very few victims of his
01:02:34
ever survived. Now, here's one crazy thing though. After Jeff got out of the hospital and
01:02:41
after he was able to kind of shake off some of this trauma and get over the fear of the whole thing that had just
01:02:48
happened, he decided he was going to go back to that side of town because it was kind of
01:02:53
like a party side of town. It was it was a place where people, you know, smoke a
01:02:58
little dope, maybe you pick up a girl or pick up a guy, whatever. And he thought, you know what? I'm going
01:03:03
to go back to that side of town because he had this he had this black Oldsmobile
01:03:10
vehicle that he that he got into. He had the image of that thing tattooed on his
01:03:15
brain. He knew Well, he had the the, you know, the vision of whoever attacked him. Mhm. You know, just if I can see
01:03:22
this guy again, I I can catch him. Yeah. And he ultimately went back to that side
01:03:28
of town several times uh until he ended up spotting the vehicle that he believed was the one
01:03:35
that abducted him. Right. And he wrote down the license plate and he was later able to provide that license plate
01:03:41
number to the Chicago PD. There's a lot more that we have to get to tomorrow, the complete unraveling of this
01:03:49
psychopath, John Wayne Gacy. So, join us back here tomorrow in the garage and for
01:03:55
everything true crime go to truecrimegarage.com. And until next time, be good, be kind,
01:04:01
and don't litter.