00:00:00
when it comes to Quality sleep Ashley has you covered with top mattress brands at winning prices and with special
00:00:06
financing options available you can snooze now and pay later plus your mattress purchase helps give the gift of
00:00:13
better sleep to children in need and US Special Operations forces visit your local Ashley store or shop online today
00:00:22
and make every snooze count financing is subject to credit approval C store or ashley.com for d details Rosetta Stone
00:00:32
is the language learning program with a lasting impact I've been using the rap to learn French and it's not just about
00:00:37
memorizing words but actually having real conversations and it's not just French they offer 25 languages right now
00:00:44
Rosetta Stone has an awesome holiday deal 50% off their lifetime membership every language unlimited access forever
00:00:51
for anyone keen on diving deep into a new language check out rosettastone.com it's a
00:00:58
GameChanger [Music] [Applause] [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
00:01:43
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man that knows you can't grow grass on a busy street he
00:01:49
is the captain but you can grow some weed right behind the high school in the open field it's good to be seen and it's
00:01:56
good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling the friend [Music] tonight we are drinking Shiner holiday
00:02:08
cheer garage grade four out of five bottle caps Shiner holiday cheer is a Bavarian style dark wheat ale duncle
00:02:15
viscon brewed thank you brewed with Texas peaches and roasted pecans and this wonderful batch of holiday cheer
00:02:23
was brought to us by these fantastic people first up we have Anna in Henderson Nevada and next up in South
00:02:29
Carolina we have caddy next we have a tongue twister at cheers mates goes out to Allison and Ashlin in Andover
00:02:36
Massachusetts and a big oh to Ashley in sanduski Ohio we also have Adam in Bend Oregon and last but not least we have
00:02:45
auntie and Finland so a longdistance cheers to you and thanks to everybody for filling up the fridge for this
00:02:50
week's show if you want to do so for next week's show go to True Crim garage.com and click on the Donate
00:02:56
button and if you'd like to follow us on social media Instagram Snapchat Twitter
00:03:02
Facebook untapped you can do so our handle is @ True Crime garage and if you want to help out the show tell a friend
00:03:09
subscribe to the show and leave us a five-star review at the iTunes Store that's enough of the business Captain
00:03:16
gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime 18-year-olds Sebastian Burns and his
00:03:34
friend Atif RAF they were staying at rti's parents' home this is back in July of 1994 Atif had been off at college and
00:03:43
Sebastian was living up in Canada they're visiting with A's family in Belleview Washington where his sister
00:03:50
lives as well they've been there for a few days by this point they go out for a night on the town they go out to a light
00:03:57
dinner followed by a movie and then some drinks afterwards they come back to A's
00:04:03
parents home and they find that all three members of A's family had been brutally murdered they call 911 they run
00:04:11
outside waiting for the police to arrive and shortly afterwards we start to see some things that may or may not
00:04:21
point to Sebastian and Atif as the guilty party right or at least the number one suspects correct well they
00:04:30
are definitely I think we're seeing a lot of actions by the Belleview Police Department that would show them that
00:04:37
they at least believed that Sebastian and Atif had committed these murders right and where we left off yesterday
00:04:44
the two had returned to Sebastian's parents' home in Canada where they would remain there right and at first Atif and
00:04:52
Sebastian are very Cooperative with the police and law enforcement but now under
00:04:57
the advice of a attorney uh their lawyer they say hey don't cooperate anymore yeah and but we do have Sebastian's
00:05:05
family and the friends of both the boys they're kind of rallying around both both of them believing them to be
00:05:12
totally innocent right and so now that the they've stopped cooperating with the Bellevue Police Department the detective
00:05:19
there remember this is detective Thompson who is leading the investigation he decided to keep digging
00:05:24
into the boy's past and he found what he thought was a bit of a disturbing clue from their past yes he discovered that
00:05:33
he discovered that Sebastian was in drama club yes that's disturbing he was acting I'm an actor actor uh yeah he
00:05:42
found that the disturbing clue was that Sebastian was in a high school play called rope uh about two kids who commit
00:05:50
the perfect murder yeah the detectives believed that the fictional murder story inspired the real life crime and even
00:05:58
more chilling the weapon used used in the story was the same as what was used to kill the rafet family a baseball bat
00:06:05
right have you ever seen this play no I have not I've not seen it so what's uh kind of interesting about it is they
00:06:12
have um this murder victim right and they put this murder victim in a box and so you see this at the beginning of the
00:06:21
play and then there's this party and they're inviting all the guests in and as they're inv inviting the guests in
00:06:27
they know that there's a certain number of guest mhm right but what nobody at the party knows is the final guest that
00:06:35
they're waiting on is it in the box and and the victim is then revealed yeah so it there's actually a very like dark
00:06:44
comedy aspect to this because based off of what people are saying okay that makes sense when when you throw in
00:06:51
comedy I'm thinking why are they showing why are they acting out a murder plot as
00:06:56
a high school play but but but when you say comedy I okay I'm with you now yeah so there's there's all these scenes in
00:07:04
the play where the audience kind of laughs because they know what's in the box they know what's in the box yeah so
00:07:09
it's very but you know so one yes this is odd that he's in this play about this thing and it's odd that
00:07:19
the weapon used in that case was a bat that is odd that's a pretty weird coincidence but it's also dark comedy
00:07:29
play and it's like I don't know to me this just seems like grabbing at straws it's a stretch it is a leap my
00:07:39
friend I I mean I I get it it doesn't um it certainly doesn't rule them out we can say that no but it doesn't rule them
00:07:48
in but yeah you're not going to get a guilty conviction off of that just makes no sense that would be like some
00:07:54
detective could now go into your past and my past and they could basically accuse of accuse us of any crime in
00:08:03
America because of our past well right uh we know that the murderer was a cannibal and we do know that the second
00:08:12
episode of True Crime gay Ridge was on Jeffrey dmer so they must have killed these people no it doesn't work that way
00:08:20
yeah yeah it's a it's a stretch it's a leap at best um as the investigation continued to tth and Sebastian they are
00:08:27
living in Vancouver they are spending some of the money that Atif inherited from his parents' estate right they
00:08:34
bought a convertible um they rented an apartment go ahead so the police start thinking
00:08:40
that you know ati's motive and Sebastian's motive would be the fact that there'd be an insurance policy on
00:08:47
A's family and he was going to receive hundreds of thousands of dollars cuz like we said his family was definitely
00:08:54
upper class and like I said they were renting an apartment but also living at the apartment with with the T and
00:08:59
Sebastian is their old high school pal this is Jimmy MOSI uh now they are living they are living well uh but they
00:09:07
are hiding from the media up in Canada because the media they were in constant pursuit of Sebastian and especially Atif
00:09:18
uh because of their story yeah so even though that their family and friends believe that they were innocent because
00:09:24
the the police went to the media and said hey these guys fled America to not get charged with these crimes now in
00:09:33
Canada most people find them to be guilty yeah and I I think I read one newspaper article or maybe it was a
00:09:40
magazine article that referred to Sebastian and Atif as the most popular murder suspects in Vancouver right or
00:09:50
and some some people would argue all of Canada yeah yeah so uh but speaking of stories uh Atif and Sebastian were
00:09:57
concocting their own story um this was one that they started working on uh their very own screenplay
00:10:04
about two best friends accused of murdering a family and they called the screenplay the great despisers right and
00:10:10
in the movie or in the script anyways um they're innocent okay so that's the screenplay
00:10:18
so it's not about these guys that uh that actually committed the murder got away with it and they're they're the
00:10:23
great despisers right so it's basically a lot about what they were going through
00:10:28
and like I said there was this whole community that thought these guys were the number one um you know guys that
00:10:34
murdered people and got away with it and now they're in Canada and and most of these guys couldn't get a job or do
00:10:40
anything so at least they were trying to do something with their time mhm well this will take us to January of 1995 so
00:10:49
roughly 6 months after the murders uh the Belleview investigators they met with the RCMP the Royal Canadian Mounted
00:10:56
Police Ju Just to clue some people and if you're curious the the RCMP is both a federal and National Police Force of
00:11:04
Canada so it's basically like the CIA and the FBI all rolled into one yeah I I guess you could say that I would I would
00:11:11
consider it to be more like the FBI uh of of the great United States sorry America still got my cat on
00:11:22
uh the Belleview detectives met with the rcmp's this is their serious crimes unit
00:11:27
to discuss the case of the RAF triple homicide right uh Belleview investigators were requesting biological
00:11:34
samples they wanted hair blood and saliva samples from Sebastian Burns and Atif rafay and they wanted the RCMP to
00:11:44
help get them those samples well and one of the reasons why was they found a a single hair strand on A's father on on
00:11:53
the bed in the bed and which he was murdered from so they wanted to test that something to compare to to either
00:12:00
uh maybe make that arrest they were seeking or eliminate them as suspects right uh the RCMP uh the officers agreed
00:12:09
to to do this to con to obtain these biological samples for them um and then they offered up what they refer to as
00:12:17
the Mr Big strategy to obtain a confession right so explain this because we don't actually have the Mr big uh
00:12:26
strategy in America well and that's what confused me when I when okay so I'll tell you my knowledge of this case uh as
00:12:35
it were a month ago right um I had I had heard of this case I had probably seen it I don't know on on Dateline or 48
00:12:44
hours or one of those shows right many many years ago we're talking probably 10 years ago I would guess and so I
00:12:52
remembered hearing of the story and it's a very interesting story the the the thing is though this Mr Big strategy
00:12:59
that they use that that we're going to talk about I thought this was like a one-time deal and then once we got we
00:13:06
started looking at this case in um throw it under the microscope two weeks ago and diving into this thing found out
00:13:13
that this is something they've used multiple time I mean time and time again to the to the point where it's just like
00:13:20
a common it's a common thing uh that Canada does and it's it's going to sound strange so here's the the general idea
00:13:28
of the Mr Big operation is this you you have some law enforcement that will pose
00:13:37
as Mobsters basically and what they're going to do is they're going to try to employ a suspect and they're going to
00:13:47
give this person jobs they're going to have them commit crimes and get paid for the for their actions and through the
00:13:55
course of building what they're going to do is try to build a relation ship you're going to build a employee
00:14:00
employer relationship and through the course of building that relationship because they're both criminals well you
00:14:07
my employee you can confide in me things that you've done in your past in your dark past right things that you're not
00:14:14
proud of things that you've gotten away with so that I know that you're a legit criminal like I am and therefore I'm
00:14:21
going to eventually get this information on tape uh whether it be audio or Visual
00:14:28
and I'm going to be able to use that against you for your previous crimes right and so that's a form of
00:14:35
entrapment and we don't use that in the States this is not admissible in courts so this is how it's going to go down in
00:14:42
this particular incident on April 10th 1995 the RCMP investigators they intercepted a phone message confirming a
00:14:50
salon appointment with Sebastian Burns and we should probably point out that at this point the RCMP have already tapped
00:14:59
their phones from my understanding and that's how they they acquired this phone message right so they were going to use
00:15:07
this information to make their move when Sebastian left the salon someone approached him the person a man asked
00:15:15
Sebastian for a ride somewhere The Stranger then took Sebastian to a bar and bought him a drink you know for his
00:15:22
trouble for driving him right he claimed that his car broke down he's from out of
00:15:26
town he's staying in this hotel can I get a ride give me a ride to the hotel they probably have a Lobby Bar I'll buy
00:15:33
you a nice drink for the for the gesture right uh Sebastian told this stranger that he and his buddies they were
00:15:40
working on a screenplay and Sebastian said that he didn't have a job and he needed financing to get this screenplay
00:15:47
to to the big screen uh The Stranger said he knew someone who could help Sebastian now of course ultimately the
00:15:55
goal here like we said is to get Sebastian to meet with the next guy up the chain you know this is going to be
00:16:02
the the mobster or the boss guy right so but initially they kind of played this guy off as not that he's going to get
00:16:09
you jobs but this guy possibly might just invest into your film and so when he meets you know this next guy which is
00:16:19
not higher up or lower I think it's kind of a s side step but it's more like well
00:16:25
yeah I can't really Finance this but I'm going to give you some jobs yeah and I think that the way that they described
00:16:30
this person to Sebastian is that he was a connected businessman that we're going
00:16:36
to introduce you to but who he actually met was Sergeant Haslett of the RCMP working undercover posing as a
00:16:46
mobster and their first meeting that he had that Sergeant Haslett had with Sebastian was in a strip club yeah so
00:16:55
which look again this is not uncommon you know as far as you know a lot of artists know this or musicians know this
00:17:02
guys that are quote unquote businessmen that want to help out artist or whatever
00:17:08
uh sometimes they just want to be around it you know I've worked with a lot of you know executive producers or guys
00:17:14
that ran small Rec record companies that they they were just fans of music but they were but as equally fans of Music
00:17:23
they wanted to be at the Afterparty after the show right you know they wanted to be like Play Rockstar without
00:17:30
actually being one so you you know trust me there's been a million trips I've taken to Nashville or somewhere to
00:17:36
audition for a record company and where does the manager take you out afterwards
00:17:42
a strip club you know whether or not you want to go that's where they take you avoid the ones that have a buffet now
00:17:49
I'll tell you well the other thing the chicken the other thing though Captain is so it's
00:17:56
he's supposed to be a mobster right and um right it's very very Sopranos I think
00:18:02
to take him to a strip club for for the initial meeting yeah it's very Hollywood
00:18:07
it kind of sells the part a little bit in it in a very cheesy way in my opinion anyway so this this quote unquote Crime
00:18:14
Boss he tells Sebastian that um he has cash to invest in his screenplay but Sebastian would have to earn it he's got
00:18:21
to earn his trust right so the crime boss said that he had some jobs for Sebastian he also had jobs for Atif and
00:18:29
Jimmy MOSI as well right if they wanted them yeah so Sebastian's first job would
00:18:34
be driving a stolen vehicle from point A to point B MH and Sebastian agrees to this he does the job and he gets paid
00:18:44
$200 for that job the next job was was a bit better well or more lucrative go ahead because Sebastian you know and his
00:18:53
idess that's what he is I mean he's you know when you see interviews with him he
00:18:58
comes off so cocky sometimes and I I don't think he knows that he's doing it I don't think he knows it's as bad as it
00:19:05
is but you know he was kind of upset I did something illegal and I got paid 200 bucks like I'm taking a risk I need
00:19:15
there needs to be a bigger reward right right he he feels like it's a bit grimy that that he has to do s take such a big
00:19:23
risk for such little reward right so then what they do is the next one is they're going to launder money they're
00:19:28
taking uh money from One bank to another bank and uh Jimmy mioshi right is going
00:19:33
to be with him on this one yeah so and the idea is pretty simple instructions here I think they have Sebastian going
00:19:41
into One Bank Jimmy going into the next one so forth and so on at the end of the
00:19:46
day they're doing a pretty easy job laundering this money just visiting Banks making bank stops and they're paid
00:19:53
two $2,000 cash for one day's worth of work that is not bad money Cas money you know but don't launder money don't do
00:20:02
that I'm not suggesting that any listener launders money so through the early part of this relationship between
00:20:08
Sebastian and this Mr Big I think he did he go by the name Al or something like that Al I'm the one who wants to be with
00:20:19
you oh I I get what you're okay okay so anyway uh during the course of this Sebastian did not he didn't admit to any
00:20:27
guilt in the triple homicide right uh but at some point he does confide in the Mobsters that if police did find
00:20:35
something that could potentially tie him to the crimes that he might want them to
00:20:40
destroy that evidence yeah kind of what happened was they're talking about hey you guys are the most famous people in
00:20:48
Canada for you know quote unquote getting a you know away with murder mhm and they were just like yeah well they
00:20:54
don't have any evidence and then the guy you know when they say that you know Sebastian was saying oh yeah well if
00:21:02
they found evidence we'd want you to get rid of that that was implied by the Mr Big op operation MH they're the ones
00:21:10
that were saying hey yeah but you know like if they did find something would you want us to get rid of we have that
00:21:16
ability we have that ability we know some people well they're going to up the stakes here um and what they do is they
00:21:23
present a memo to to Sebastian and this thing is it's not real but it looks very
00:21:29
real it's on Belleview police letterhead detailing the evidence linking Sebastian
00:21:35
to the murders and the Mobsters offer to destroy this evidence the the evidence that's listed in this memo well and
00:21:43
again they're also not saying that they found it that the Belleview Police Department found this evidence they're
00:21:51
saying that this is a part of the evidence that they're claiming that they found cuz they're going to frame you
00:21:59
you see what I'm saying mhm so a lot of people think it's this clear-cut thing where Mr Big said hey they got this
00:22:05
evidence you're busted no cuz Sebastian was like they don't have evidence cuz we
00:22:11
didn't do the crime you see what I'm saying right and so then they were saying well it doesn't matter if you did
00:22:16
the crime or not this is what they're going to use this is what they're going to say they have right they're setting
00:22:21
you up MH so let's be clear about that mhm um so there offering to destroy this this evidence they're offering to make
00:22:32
this problem go away for for Sebastian sorry but in order to do so Mr Big he wants Sebastian to tell them exactly
00:22:42
what happened in the rafay house the night of the murders so now this takes us to July 18th
00:22:49
1995 just about one year after the murder Sebastian meets with Haslett he meets with Mr Big the quote unquote
00:22:57
Undercover mob dude right at the Ocean Point Resort at some hotel and they have hidden cameras
00:23:04
rolling here set up to film this whole thing and Sebastian walks into the hotel room he takes off his shoes he gets
00:23:12
comfortable on the couch or love seat he's he's a cocky so and he starts talking and I'm not sure if it's if it's
00:23:21
both videos uh but on on one at least one of them he's having it looks like he's drinking a here while he's talking
00:23:29
with this Mr Big well I think they filmed him for a few hours yeah and he he starts confessing to the murders and
00:23:37
we will not get we'll get into what was said in just a minute but um and we'll go through some of the questions and the
00:23:44
answers as well but the key thing here is after he's done confessing to Mr Big the next day he returns the next day
00:23:52
Sebastian comes back to the mobster this time he's bringing his buddy Atif with him to the Crime Boss to tell his side
00:24:01
of the story right which ends up being recorded as well their buddy Jimmy Moshi takes uh ends up talking with the Crime
00:24:08
Boss as well and this seals it this seals the deal Sebastian Atif and MOSI they end up being arrested for things
00:24:16
that they said to Mr Big on tape when arrested immediately Sebastian is going to say that he was lying right and that
00:24:26
undercover officers uh had intimidated him into making a false [Music] confession this show is sponsored by
00:24:45
better help do you look forward to the holidays maybe you struggle with seasonal Blues this time of year can be
00:24:51
a lot and it's natural to feel some sadness or even anxiety about it but adding something new and positive to
00:24:57
your life can counteract some of those feelings therapy can be a bright spot something to look forward to to make you
00:25:05
feel grounded and to give you the tools to manage everything going on if you're thinking of starting therapy give better
00:25:12
help a try it's entirely online designed to be convenient flexible and suited to
00:25:17
your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapist
00:25:23
at any time for no additional charge find your bright spot this season with betterhelp visit betterhelp.com
00:25:30
Garay to get 10% off your first month that's betterhelp hp.com garage dreaming of overseas Adventures
00:25:43
or connecting more deeply with family from afar Rosetta Stone Bridges the language Gap I've tried others but
00:25:49
Rosetta Stone's immersive lessons and voice feedback technology are game changers dive into 25 Languages by
00:25:56
learning intuitively just like when you were a kid and here's the holiday Sparkle grab a lifetime membership now
00:26:03
and save 50% gift yourself the world head to rosettastone.com now and save 50% at Consumer Cellular you get the
00:26:13
same exact coverage as the largest carriers but for up to half the cost same thing up to half the cost up to
00:26:20
half the cost for the same thing 50% the money for 100% the same thing I hope I'm
00:26:25
making myself clear consumer cellular when Freedom calls we're here to answer call us at 1888 Freedom half the cost
00:26:33
savings based on cost of consumer cellular single line 5 GB data plan with unlimited talk and text compared to
00:26:37
lowest cost single line postpaid unlimited talk text and data plan offered by T-Mobile and Verizon May
00:26:50
2023 all right bloody hell cheers me mate all right Captain let's get into this confession and we got a lot of
00:26:57
stuff to get to I want to kind of give a quick little um a short version of how they confess to the murders what they
00:27:05
actually did according to their confession that was videotaped in front of this Mr Big character right um so
00:27:13
what what Sebastian is saying is that we know that they went out to dinner they go to a movie and then they go out to
00:27:20
another club afterward and we have these people that can confirm having seen them
00:27:25
at the restaurant having waited on them at the restaurant having taken their drink order at the movie after I'm sorry
00:27:31
at the club after the movie mhm but basically what what Sebastian's going to say is that the time that they were
00:27:38
supposed to be in the movie theater watching the movie is when they returned to the RAF home and
00:27:44
killed ati's parents and sister right and he says that he he was the one that used the Bat that he attacked A's mother
00:27:53
first and then he went and killed the father and then he killed um well attacked A's sister to the point where
00:28:00
she was left for dead right and he claims that Atif was basically in another room the whole time yeah he's
00:28:07
he's kind of setting up and making the Breakin thing look like it actually happened he's he would be the one I'm
00:28:14
guessing tipping over the boxes and opening drawers mhm they cleaned themselves up Sebastian took a shower
00:28:21
and then they make sure that they get back to that location where they are then seen again after the movie so
00:28:27
they're whereabouts are accounted for they have Alibis for what they were doing that night making them look like
00:28:33
they it would have been impossible for them to have killed the rafay family that's their
00:28:39
confession let's go let's go through it let's go through this a little bit more because we obvious this is very obvious
00:28:46
that it makes them look guilty but what we have now we have a lot of people screaming that no there are portions of
00:28:52
that confession that that actually point to their innocence okay and because we have Sebastian saying all this stuff is
00:29:01
a lie yeah we confess to Mr Big and to his crew but all this stuff was a lie well right and just to give her you know
00:29:08
so they're going to question and have Sebastian confess but then they're going to have Atif confess as well and if you
00:29:15
take those two stories there are a couple things that don't line up between Atif story and Sebastian's story and
00:29:22
then when you take their buddy Jimmy comes in um his story he doesn't really cooperate much at all he doesn't really
00:29:30
say much at all he basically you almost could say he doesn't confess I mean he's
00:29:34
he doesn't confess to any wrong wrongdoing himself and I think at the most that he confesses for as far as
00:29:41
Atif and Sebastian are concerned I think he kind of points to one right and and says you know who did it well that guy
00:29:47
right there right and it's again important to know that once they're arrested Sebastian Atif and Jimmy all
00:29:55
will state hey we lied we're we're innocent so the first thing that is pointed out by by all the people stating
00:30:03
that these young men are innocent and this confession is not real is Sebastian's clothing and what he says in
00:30:11
his confession regarding his clothing now this is all taken from the rcmp's transcription of the actual uh
00:30:19
confession okay so regarding the clothing Sebastian's first explanation to Al I was right Mr big is going by Al
00:30:28
uh is that he disposed of his clothes he wore when he murdered the rafay family uh they point out that this is false uh
00:30:37
police confirmed that Sebastian wore the same clothes both before and after the murders were committed uh during the
00:30:43
transcription during the confession he says uh I'll ask bloody clothes blood on your clothes why not why didn't you have
00:30:51
any blood on your clothes Burns States because they were gone he had disposed of these clothes where where did you get
00:30:57
rid of him in like a dumpster downtown right so we know that part of his story is a lie but the other thing too is at
00:31:06
some point he also states that he committed the crimes naked yes so again maybe he's lying that he got rid of them
00:31:15
maybe he's not maybe he took the clothes off killed him in the underwear there was two sets of underwear that were
00:31:20
found in a washing machine mhm uh in A's house supposedly belonging to Atif and fion there was no um physical evidence
00:31:31
on those clothings they weren't washed mhm so uh to me that was placed there by somebody yeah and then when he tells he
00:31:40
being Sebastian when he tells his story to Al changing his story that he committed the murders without any
00:31:47
clothes on that's when he says you know that's what the shower was for he took Burn states that he took a shower to
00:31:53
clean off and his exact words are took a shower to clean off you know blood and that kind of stuff um yeah right yeah
00:32:02
and and then the thing about Atif when they talk about the clothing with a teeth he's saying oh yeah well some of
00:32:08
the stuff we threw in dumpsters but some of the stuff we threw out the window now
00:32:12
we should talk about the blood threw out the window but threw out the window of a
00:32:15
moving car right and what we should really talk about is the evidence that was in A's father's room uh based off of
00:32:24
the the blood splatter or spatter spatter um evidence there was possibly two definitely two individuals but most
00:32:34
likely three individuals in that room which again we have three suspects so that wouldn't rule them out but again
00:32:44
when Sebastian is telling his confession he's saying well Atif is not even in the
00:32:48
room at the time so certain things just don't line up but we also have Sebastian
00:32:53
stating that Jimmy MOSI did not participate in in the murders right so according to Sebastian's confession
00:33:01
there's only two people committing those crimes right and like I said there's evidence there's evidence to suggest
00:33:08
that there could be three people in the room I want to be clear about that because here's one thing that I have not
00:33:13
definitive right here's one thing that here's one big problem I have with with this case in particular and we see this
00:33:20
with other cases when you get a whole mob of people claiming that somebody's innocent they start skewing things just
00:33:28
as much as we've seen police skew things and media skew things they skew it in a
00:33:33
way that's going to be presented to you that that they totally got this wrong and here's why and there there are
00:33:40
websites there are newspaper articles there are um there's plenty of stuff out there on this case that have presented
00:33:46
that it's factual that three people had to have been in that room right yeah and
00:33:51
and we should be clear it's evidence suggests the possibility of three people being in the room definitely two
00:33:57
possibly three well and also we we talked about the hair that was found on the bed that did not match any of these
00:34:05
individuals and it didn't match any of the victims it didn't match any of the suspects so but you could argue one
00:34:13
could make an argument that uh that's either the actual killer or this is some piece of DNA evidence that was that
00:34:23
randomly got there well right because they didn't there were new to the area so you know there was there's going to
00:34:30
be DNA of whoever's been in that house you know and whoever lived in the house before them well and I think um I heard
00:34:39
one one expert pointed out the best when it when to me anyway regarding that hair
00:34:45
and he stated that you know could this been a hair that A's father uh somehow it got you know he sat down in his car
00:34:55
seat and this hair was on the car seat got transferred to his pants and then got transferred to the bed right that's
00:35:01
a possibility could this hair have been a hair that was on the movie theater the
00:35:06
movie theater seat that Sebastian was sitting in transferred to his pants and then somehow transferred to the bed
00:35:13
either during the course of the attack or during the course of finding the bodies well and I think it's back to the
00:35:22
original point that you're trying to make though if we have eyewitnesses claiming they saw Sebastian and a teth
00:35:28
in this certain outfit and then after the movies you see them in the same outfits M that you would think that this
00:35:34
would be part of their master plan and that Sebastian would remember this so when he was telling Mr Big hey this is
00:35:41
how it went down he would have said oh and I came up with this clever thing where I will take off my clothes I'll
00:35:46
kill them in the nude I'll take a shower and I'll put these clothes back on that
00:35:51
would be pretty simple to remember he obviously didn't remember that or it didn't happen and that and that's where
00:35:58
the stories start not making a lot of sense yeah and I and I wanted to be clear and point out how random that hair
00:36:05
could have been how possibly random that hair could have been according to that expert's opinion um so that doesn't
00:36:12
necessarily rule them out either correct it doesn't rule them out but it also could point to an unknown unknown
00:36:21
suspect right the next thing we need to talk about in regards to the confession is the baseball bat the weapon that was
00:36:27
believed to have been used to kill the rafay family mhm and the concern with this is Al Mr Big wants to know what
00:36:36
happened with the bat right uh and where did you get the bat well in their confession Sebastian and Atif have a
00:36:46
hard time explaining where they got the bat right I think at one point Sebastian
00:36:51
says uh I may have been the one that purchased the bat yeah and uh I believe Atif says that the bat was just lying
00:37:00
around right and I think the Disposable uh how they dispos the bat was also a little
00:37:07
fishy yes because this is where they're talking about those dumpsters where they
00:37:12
state that the they won't find the bat uh because we put it in one of those dumpsters dumpsters that were downtown
00:37:19
to which Mr big is going to explain to them well you know what day did you commit these murders he says well was a
00:37:26
Tuesday so we're dumping these items on Tuesday night in these dumpsters and Mr Big says well you just hope in that
00:37:33
situation that they they didn't empty those dumpsters that Tuesday morning because then they wouldn't come back
00:37:39
until the following Tuesday and that evidence could sit there and could be found through the course of the the the
00:37:46
week right um same thing with the the VCR as well what did you do with the VCR We buried it in a dumpster and what do
00:37:55
we mean by buried it's like they they got in the dumpster amongst the trash and rubbish inside and they buried these
00:38:04
items in the trash right and then and then you come back and you make a 911 call and the police come and but you
00:38:12
don't look dis shoveled and you're so fresh and so clean clean mhm Al is worried about Mr big is worried about
00:38:18
fingerprints and this is when sebas says there will be no fingerprints because he
00:38:23
wore gloves Mr Big continues to Express concern that later the bat could be located and that Sebastian's Prince
00:38:31
would be on that bat right or that they'd be able to trace how he bought the bat to this point Sebastian tells Mr
00:38:38
Big that the bat was shrink wrapped in plastic wrap during the murders which this is scientifically incorrect this
00:38:47
this could not have happened because there were small pieces of the bat that were lodged in the wall at the scene of
00:38:56
the murder and there was no right there would be r that would be have been found with that and that was
00:39:03
not the case before we move on from this item of discussion while we're talking about gloves we should point out that
00:39:12
later a fingerprint expert testified that the murderer did not wear gloves that that this person this expert
00:39:20
would have found glove marks right at the scene so just another part of his confession that doesn't make a sense one
00:39:27
thing that will be pointed out time and time again is that the stories change okay whether it be that you're speaking
00:39:35
with Sebastian one-on-one during this confession tape or whether you be it that you're speaking with the teth that
00:39:43
that Sebastian's story will change as he goes along and Atif story will change as
00:39:49
he goes along I agree with this because there is some different information that
00:39:53
each of them are putting out from time to time there's one thing that I have a big
00:39:59
problem with though when people want to point out that the stories change right is if anybody has watched this
00:40:07
videotaped confession and if for those of you who have not just to to explain it and
00:40:14
describe it and you know better for you it's not like tuning into the garage and
00:40:20
the captain and Nick are going through a story we're going through a murder and how it happened from from the very
00:40:28
beginning all the way through the end right it's not like that at all that's not this confession this confession is
00:40:36
we have Sebastian sitting on a couch and he's being asked questions he's being asked a question sometimes he's giving
00:40:44
one or two Word answers and other times he might give you a sentence but he at no point is giving expansive answers
00:40:51
right he's at no point giving a whole a complete story rarely does he even get through one point completely and Mr Big
00:41:02
who is the one that is the expert in drawing out these confessions confessions that he he knows is going to
00:41:09
be videotaped and later shown to investigators and then potentially to a jury once this thing goes to
00:41:17
trial he's jumping all over the place with his questions in my opinion he's like hey what what happened to the bat
00:41:25
and it gets like a two word answer and he's like okay so why no blood on your clothes and gets a a short answer then
00:41:31
he's like okay what about fingerprints on the bat yeah and it's what what I hear to me what I'm hearing in this
00:41:40
confession especially with Sebastian is not so much a story that is changing completely I almost feel like on most of
00:41:50
the points not all I want to be clear not all the points but on most of the points I feel like what I'm getting is a
00:41:57
little bit of the truth and then later I might be getting a little more of the truth on that exact point yeah possibly
00:42:05
and it's a weird thing too because you have a cocky individual with Sebastian which is you know thinks he's you know
00:42:12
holier than thou maybe one of the smartest people in the world and then you have these cops that also think that
00:42:17
they're brilliant as well trying to Corner him and uh you know is the whole confession is just is really hard to
00:42:24
watch because the acting of the police officers are so or law enforcement is so awful they they try to come off as you
00:42:32
know these mobster member guys and it just comes off so poorly I mean everything is [ __ ] this and [ __ ] that
00:42:40
you know like it's it's just so it it it's like this it's basically like they tell them at Parts uh of the
00:42:49
investigation that I killed people right but instead of saying well you know I've
00:42:53
killed people too they're like I killed that mother [ __ ] and I stabbed in his [ __ ] face and I shot him right
00:42:58
in his face and I butt [ __ ] him with his [ __ ] gun I mean it's just so over the toop that one how can Sebastian if
00:43:07
he was so smart not see through this [ __ ] well and it's weird because I know that these officers have I
00:43:16
shouldn't say that I know I wasn't there with them but I'm assuming that they've
00:43:20
received extensive training in this area it's so bad but really and I know I reference Sopranos earlier I I love that
00:43:28
show I miss that show but I really think you could have you could have sat a few
00:43:33
people down and had them watch a season of Sopranos give them a leather jacket and a and a handgun and send them into
00:43:40
this hotel room and they could have pulled off the same they could have pulled off the same um act let's say mhm
00:43:48
well and let's let's be devil's advocate for a second so why would a te why would
00:43:54
Sebastian confess to a crime that they didn't commit what's their motivation well the motivation is they
00:44:01
want to get financed for this screenplay they want to they want to put their art
00:44:05
on the big screen and they need dollars to do so and they really believe and I think Sebastian's even quoted as saying
00:44:15
you know we believe that if we were in fact found innocent for this crime well then our our movies going to make
00:44:24
millions and millions of dollars right and so 20 to 30 million is what he said is that what he said and you know it's
00:44:31
funny that you you say that uh he Sebastian may think that he's not only the smartest guy in the room but
00:44:37
possibly one of the smartest people on the planet I think he even says that at some point during the confession right
00:44:43
when he's asked if he's how smart he thinks he is he says well one of the most smartest
00:44:49
people most intelligent people on the plan yeah I said that because I did the research um keep up
00:44:56
uh anyways that's I don't know if that's their motivation cuz I I really think their
00:45:01
motivation from the interviews that I was listening to with a a that he's been doing lately um I think he did one with
00:45:09
uh The Fifth Estate their motivation more was hey I got involved with these bad dudes and now they for me to do more
00:45:19
stuff for them they need to know that uh we're we're reliable people that they we
00:45:26
believe them and so as much as they're going okay so now you need to tell me about these
00:45:34
murders they were afraid that if they didn't or this is what they claim Sebastian and Atif were afraid that if
00:45:42
we don't say we committed these murders that these guys will think that we're just some Chumps that are going to rat
00:45:50
them out and they have given us example after example that we've killed people and a lot of times when he's saying that
00:45:58
they killed people he's saying oh well this guy crossed me so I killed him or this guy tried to turn me in so I killed
00:46:05
him so it's it's really um one is nefarious and one it's irresponsible for when Mr Big when you hear them talk and
00:46:14
they say did you ever threaten these guys mhm they say no we we never threatened them no but during the
00:46:22
confession you just keep brining up that you killed people that hold on you you know what I mean and that you've killed
00:46:28
all these people so it's not wrong to have these young adults that aren't not that they're not so Street Smart
00:46:39
to believe that and to believe that you're capable of murder and if I did you know I'm just going to tell you this
00:46:47
to get you off my back if does that make sense well they they made every attempt
00:46:51
to sell that point and they being Mr Big and the people working for him or supposedly working for him and I'll give
00:46:59
you some more specific detail regarding this intimidation Factor because I I wholeheartedly agree with the
00:47:06
intimidation Factor here I think this is I think this is wrong and you and I had
00:47:12
a conversation last week and one thing we were talking about was you know when we talked about the yogurt shop murders
00:47:18
from Austin uh Texas mhm they got confessions from a couple of those from two of those four guys and one of the
00:47:27
confessions was obtained after an officer took an unloaded handgun and put it to the back of the head of of one of
00:47:35
the people he was trying to get confess mhm this to me while not that dramatic this to me is borderline the same thing
00:47:44
right but they got guns on the table right and that's what I'm going I'm going to get into that this is
00:47:48
borderline the same thing we we have um Sebastian a direct quote from Sebastian is I believe that if if I crossed them
00:47:56
they would have killed me and so we have Mr Big we also have this character named
00:48:03
Gary Gary can be seen yeah he can be seen on and off camera during the confessions and at one point Gary tells
00:48:12
Sebastian that he was a murderer and that Mr Big had hired him to contract uh some kills Gary also says you want to
00:48:23
know what I did my time for Gary Tell Sebastian that he toasted a guy oh Gary yeah and he he says you want to know how
00:48:32
solid Mr big is well when it came time for Gary to go to court and there was a person that could testify against him
00:48:39
putting him in prison he States well that person ain't around anymore so you know that business gets taken care of
00:48:47
Gary further explained that to Sebastian that Mr Big had paid $80,000 to kill this Witness right then at one point you
00:48:57
have a third undercover officer pretending to be an employee of Gary and Mr Big he enters the room to where and
00:49:05
then he throws down two handguns on the table in front of SE Sebastian and indicated that a person had just been
00:49:12
shot with one of those guns so when we when we reference the intimidation Factor here it's real this I mean this
00:49:21
is some yeah it's and it's more real for like said not StreetWise young adults it's more real for any two people
00:49:31
sitting in that room and but here's where I have a problem with right but what I'm saying is if you had a couple
00:49:37
guys that are a little more StreetWise like within a few conversations you'd go something's up with this you know so I
00:49:46
see what you're saying that that this is a ruse something's not right here right
00:49:50
I smell I smell bacon even as smart as Sebastian thinks he is he he he certainly was outsmarted in this
00:49:57
situation he's a real dumbass the problem that I have with Sebastian saying I agree I agree with the
00:50:06
intimidation to some extent what what I have a problem with is when I see you on camera and his I
00:50:15
mean his mannerisms at no point at no point on camera does he appear to be nervous does
00:50:23
he appear to be intimidated at times s he's smiling when he tells the order of of who he killed and and how he killed
00:50:32
the individuals yeah but again you can't read too much into that because I mean the absurdity of what he's saying could
00:50:39
be hilarious to him so it's really hard to like go you look if he didn't do these crimes and look everybody says
00:50:47
well how can you even say this stuff you knew them but you're you're in a hotel room you just did Money laundry you just
00:50:55
you what the hell are you doing anyways but now you're sitting there explaining that you killed these people and the
00:51:02
Ridiculousness of it like just because you're smiling or even laughing I mean Atif did the same
00:51:09
thing you know it's hard to comment on that stuff because we don't know what's going on inside their head I don't know
00:51:15
what's going on in his head but I'm going to read into it I'm going to comment on it because I one thing that
00:51:20
we've both agreed upon is that one thing that Sebastian's very proud of self proud of is how intelligent he thinks he
00:51:28
is and when he's when he's answering these questions he's lighting up in a way where he's like I'm to me this is
00:51:38
what it looks like the guy that thinks oh here I am the guy that pulled off these three murders and now I'm the one
00:51:45
that's getting to school this hardened criminal I'm getting to school this career Criminal on how I pulled this off
00:51:54
and why I'm so smart oh I did it without any clothes on so I wouldn't get any blood on my clothes why didn't you have
00:52:00
blood on you took a shower why you know what when did the deed go down during the movie you know
00:52:08
and you see him light up when he says these things that's sorry but that's my opinion that's what I see on on the tape
00:52:16
and the sad part too is that I see that from Atif as well when he's when he's asked to give his story he's speaking
00:52:24
specifically about his family whether he was involved or not he's smiling at times he seems to be enjoying confessing
00:52:32
to to this again you have to take into account that these are edited versions of the confession tapes I mean multiple
00:52:39
times before the confession starts Sebastian still denies that they had anything to do with it multiple times I
00:52:45
think it was something ridiculous like 10 15 times where he said they had nothing to do with it m when Atif is
00:52:51
brought in it's to hey these guys uh basically said like they would kill me and kill everybody else if we like we
00:52:58
got they need to know we're on the up and up again it's an edited confession what a lot a lot of stuff you don't see
00:53:05
is how much he's fishing for answers you see it a little bit on the confession tapes he being Sebastian or Atif Atif
00:53:13
but both of them because there's times that they're both in the room together and when they have a question and
00:53:18
they're like well the bat was there or no I bought the bat there's like discrepancies within the conversation
00:53:24
mhm like that they don't know oh I think we threw those out I don't know what we
00:53:29
did with those oh I hope these guys don't figure us out because if they figure us out we're dead so I think
00:53:35
there's some acting that had to go along whether they're telling the truth or they're lying I think uh they were in a
00:53:43
in a situation where they tried had to act a little tougher than what they were now to in all fairness you know I there
00:53:51
was some mannerisms that I saw that could have pointed towards innoc I should point that out if I'm going to
00:53:57
point out the other right so um you referenced Atif there are several times where you know Atif is sitting in a
00:54:05
chair and then to his left is Sebastian who's on the love seat right and there are several times where Atif is giving
00:54:13
an answer and he's kind of slow giving the answer and I see his eyes they're not wandering they're looking at
00:54:20
Sebastian and it's almost like help me out here is he looking yeah is he looking for help with his answer or is
00:54:26
he looking for approval whether he got it the information correct or not and like you pointed out by the time that
00:54:33
Atif is confessing to this he's had a whole night of talking with Sebastian the night before before he's brought
00:54:40
back the next you know before he's brought there the next morning to tell his side of the story so reasons why
00:54:46
they would give this confession but yet still be innocent that that persons point out often are that they're
00:54:53
factually inaccurate statements that they gave that they do not contain realistic detail that the confessions
00:55:01
are based entirely on media reports and various prompts and suggestions from Mr Big
00:55:07
himself um but one thing that's pointed out is that the confessions contain absolutely no holdback evidence evidence
00:55:16
or information that only the killer would have known I would I want to address that last that last little uh
00:55:24
box there MH before we check that one off my concerns with that is is there any hold back evidence you know I they
00:55:35
couldn't they couldn't give a confession that would contain holdback evidence if
00:55:39
there is none and and we know that in cases that police like to do that that you would ideally have hold back
00:55:48
evidence that only the killer or Killers would know but we also know from having
00:55:53
looked at plenty of these that sometimes there just nothing got held back everything was out there everything was
00:55:59
reported everything was in the media all right on July 31st 1995 this is after having the confessions Sebastian Burns
00:56:08
and Atif rafay they are charged with three counts of aggravated first-degree murder and Jimmy MOSI is charged with
00:56:16
conspiracy to commit murder right they are incarcerated in Vancouver Canada between the years of 19 95 and 2001 they
00:56:27
remained incarcerated in maximum security pre-trial facilities in British Colombia that's six years now why would
00:56:36
they stay in prison for that long well there's several reasons but one being that they're probably facing the death
00:56:43
penalty once they return to the United States there's usually some negotiation that goes down between the countries
00:56:50
before they're willing to send somebody back if they are in fact going to face the death penalty right and some
00:56:57
interesting things here is so they argue and basically the state of Washington says hey we're not going to seek the
00:57:04
death penalty MH so therefore send them to us so right and basically you know Canada um outlawed the death penalty a
00:57:12
while ago so okay that makes some sense so now we're sending our citizens down there but the weirdest thing about it
00:57:21
was the way they got these confessions were based on Canada law it's not legal here in the United States right as you
00:57:28
pointed out the Mr Big strategy so so when they go into trial pretty quickly they know that these confession tapes
00:57:36
are going to be you know allowed in the courtroom after having been incarcerated
00:57:42
in the fall of 1995 Jimmy Moshi he obtains immunity for his charge of conspiracy to commit
00:57:48
murder in return for statements that would incriminate Sebastian Burns and Atif rafet now the trial begins in
00:57:56
Seattle Washington this is in November of 2003 on the stand MOSI he recounts a discussion with Sebastian and with Atif
00:58:07
regarding how they would commit the murders he states that he remembered hearing something about gassing the
00:58:13
house and remembered a discussion about using a baseball bat when asked why a baseball bat he says I guess that it was
00:58:23
it's a quick and painless way of killing someone a part of moshi's statements and
00:58:28
testimony that I think is the most damning and I'm sure the jurors felt the same way is when he's asked about a
00:58:36
conversation of of their plan a big part of their plan was that Sebastian and Atif wanted to be in the rafay home and
00:58:45
stay there for a few days before committing the murder because this would explain away any fingerprint evidence
00:58:53
any hair evidence any fibers any DNA that may have been found of theirs at the crime scene yeah that's kind of
00:59:03
fishy but um I think the point that people forget about Jimmy is that when he was arrested when he didn't have
00:59:13
pressure on him when the death penalty wasn't hanging over his head his friends were innocent they were lying about
00:59:22
these confessions his to me his demeanor during his tape confession was that he did not want to say this that he didn't
00:59:31
want to go along with this idea and that he didn't believe that his friends were
00:59:35
guilty of this crime that's my gut feeling so now that he's being pressured that hey if you don't cooperate you're
00:59:43
going to be facing the death penalty which we all knew was a lie anyways again another tactic of you know strong
00:59:50
arming somebody into saying something that I don't know if it's true or not so just because that there was that thing
00:59:56
hanging over his head the death Pony hanging over his head I don't know if I believe anything this guy says on May 26
01:00:03
2004 Sebastian and Atif are convicted of three counts of first deegree murder yeah and they both give kind of
01:00:11
different statements um their final statement Sebastian's final statements like over two hours long yeah it's a
01:00:17
fair it's at least two hours long and uh his is more that this was unfair and this was unjust and and um blah blah
01:00:26
blah blah and Atif is more like you know you know saddened by all this yeah his is I loved my family I loved my father I
01:00:35
loved my mother I wouldn't have killed them um I don't know why anybody else would have killed them um so his his
01:00:43
statements sound remorseful um and Sebastian's don't sound remorseful but if you believe what he's saying they
01:00:50
don't need to sound remorseful because he's not guilty of anything yeah everything Sebastian says makes him
01:00:57
sound like a dick face you know so do you think that they got it right do you think that the jurors got it right well
01:01:04
how about you start this one off H this is a if if I start to tail spin out of control reel me back in here
01:01:13
okay so I don't know I look Captain I don't know I really don't know and that's full
01:01:22
disclosure complete y I don't know because here's what chicken butt my gut tells me m that they they probably did
01:01:32
it that's what my gut tells me the problem is I can't find evidence to support that gut feeling right um here's
01:01:42
the thing I I do want to go through a couple of a couple of things that that may or may not point to their guilt yeah
01:01:49
go go with what you know leads you to that cuz I do I do like chopping down some of these things that people were
01:01:56
like they're innocent they're innocent you know and some of like we said about uh how things are presented and I'm
01:02:01
going to go back to the there had to be three killers situation in the room with
01:02:08
Mr rafay when he was killed and the reason why they state that there would have been three kill three people in
01:02:14
that room is there's one person swinging the murder weapon mhm there is a pillow
01:02:21
that because of blood spatter evidence we know was moved it would have been on the bed during the early part of the
01:02:28
murder and it would have been moved to the floor later while the murder is still
01:02:34
being committed right so there's no blood for a while then there's some blood evidence why there would be a third
01:02:42
person is because in a location where a person would not have been able to move that pillow there is a there's a shadow
01:02:50
almost an outline of a person right and there's blood spatter around that shadow
01:02:56
around that silouette so that would put one creating the silouette one moving the pillow one swinging the murder
01:03:05
weapon I I don't believe that to be the situation at all I absolutely believe all this points to me is that there were
01:03:13
two people in that room right and reason being is okay think about when you're top CPR the first thing that they tell
01:03:21
you is that if you find somebody unresponsive and they are in a bed well you need to get them and place them on a
01:03:29
hard surface before you start performing this CPR why because as soon as you do that once you start pushing down on the
01:03:38
victim they're going to the bed is going to create them so they start bouncing or
01:03:42
pushing back up it's just natural it's just going to happen so you put them on a hard surface think about if somebody
01:03:49
were swinging a bat on the on a victim laying in a bed it's going to to create the same motion a quake effect that
01:03:57
would move the pillow from the bed to the floor so I don't know that there had to have been a third person in the room
01:04:04
for that to take place the other thing that I question is we know the order of who was attacked we know that the mother
01:04:13
was attacked first and then the father and then the sister again I don't know I don't have a full understanding of her
01:04:21
autism but here's one thing that I I wonder and I hope that they checked this with the blood spatter
01:04:29
evidence but is there a chance that the second person in the room didn't have to
01:04:34
be a killer is there a chance that she for some reason came into that room and witnessed a portion of that murder
01:04:42
before she was attacked there's a there's a likelihood that you have this evidence out there there may have only
01:04:48
be one guilty person in this situation so what you're saying is that you think there's a possibility that this crime
01:04:56
was committed by one individual and there was only one individual at the crime scene possibly I I wouldn't rule
01:05:02
that out I hope that they checked Atif sister for certain evidence DNA evidence of her father if that makes
01:05:11
any sense yeah I think the other thing here though too is if there was two individuals right we
01:05:19
have a lot of blood in that shower that to me could could have been one person but it
01:05:26
also makes sense that if there was multiple people there and they decided to clean up before they left then that
01:05:33
would explain the amount of blood yeah that was washed off yeah I'm just simply stating that for people saying that
01:05:39
three people had to have Commit committed this crime and that therefore rules out Atif and Sebastian I'm saying
01:05:45
I don't believe that one bit I I need more proof that that more than two people were there was it committed by
01:05:52
one person or two people I don't know but that that's the most I've gotten to as far as as number of perpetrators go
01:06:00
the other questionable thing that I have here so those items might Point towards
01:06:05
more towards their guilt you know if if there were only two people there MH um but one thing that might Point towards
01:06:13
their innocence and this is one thing that I H that I can't get over is the amount of overkill on the father mhm
01:06:21
okay so they point out they being the Poli that this is this points to somebody knowing the victim that that
01:06:28
that a lot of times in crimes we will see see Overkill because there's a deep hatred from the person killing the
01:06:34
person to the the victim there's a deep hatred well not necessarily in this case
01:06:41
the the the the perpetrator May in fact have known them it doesn't have to be somebody close on their Inner Circle if
01:06:48
Sebastian was in fact the one that was swinging the murder weapon what evidence do we have that he hated this man so
01:06:56
much that he hit him 40 or 50 times right what why would he go to Overkill it seems to me like they if if in fact
01:07:05
they killed the rafay family they simply did it for money that they simply did it
01:07:10
to uh live together and have some money to finance their their goal their dream right I I guess Overkill is not
01:07:20
necessary that's just to remind you that that's what uh Atif kept on saying in his confession
01:07:26
was uh yeah we did this for money I guess right he like to end everything with right and that's what I mean there
01:07:33
there would be no reason for Overkill now let me throw this at you we had those three tips all three of those tips
01:07:40
involve some form of of what you could say is an easy leap to religious hatred that somebody could hate another person
01:07:50
for religious reasons why would there be Overkill on one victim the father and not overkill on the other two victims if
01:07:59
you had somebody that was just busting into a place for a Thrill Kill you would see overkill on all three of these
01:08:05
individuals right they're trying to make a statement if you were looking and believe that monetary it it this was
01:08:11
just a money that money was the motive you wouldn't see overkill on any of these victims whoever killed Mr raay
01:08:22
hated that man very badly right which those which to me I need I need you would have to point out reasons
01:08:30
why that would mean why that would implicate Sebastian right or and I don't see those I just don't see those and I
01:08:37
don't have a problem with the jury I don't have a problem with their final conclusion with with the guilty verdict
01:08:42
on both of these guys and the reason being is I think the way that this case was presented to them and what was
01:08:51
presented to them in court it I think it would be hard for me not to have given a
01:08:58
guilty verdict as well what I do have a problem with is this whole confession to
01:09:03
begin with I don't think it should have ever been allowed in the courtroom and I
01:09:08
think without this confession you you have no way to convict these guys there's no way
01:09:14
there's no way you could get me to go Yep they're guilty right he just couldn't do it I think I think this
01:09:21
confession is there's there's parts of it that do not ring true to me there are parts of it that I think can are
01:09:28
probably bogus it's one of those weird cases captain my gut tells me one thing the
01:09:34
evidence shows me another and without this this is not legal in the United States this the way they obtain this
01:09:42
confession is not legal in the United States how can they use it in our court of law I I I don't understand yeah and
01:09:49
what what the government argued for years about this case and what they rightfully decided was
01:09:58
this crime took place in Washington it will be tried in Washington because that's where the crime took place and so
01:10:06
you should have to go off of that set of rules MH so if somebody goes over to the Middle East
01:10:15
and they're in a country where it's okay to rip toes off or cut hands off to get
01:10:21
somebody to confess and uh they get somebody to confess to a murder that took place in New York City and they
01:10:28
transfer the person from the Middle East over to New York City are we going to go
01:10:34
with that confession right are we going to allow that in and I think um in this case these guys should be whether you
01:10:42
think they're guilty or innocent or whether they're guilty or innocent these guys should be set free for the fact
01:10:48
that you made up the rules as you went along and that's not something that we should be doing as a system a justice
01:10:55
system it's supposed to be uh truth and Justice and you didn't try to find either the other thing that's really
01:11:00
disturbing about this case is that there was a jury member that was highly against this confession and took notes
01:11:08
of over 250 maybe 300 pages of notes this jury member was uh before the verdict was taken place they were
01:11:17
excused from the trial and I feel like this is um this was a tactic yeah but I think from the
01:11:26
beginning I mean it was like we're going to get this Mr Big op operation in we are going to get them to confess then
01:11:32
we're going to get them down to you and then we're going to make sure that this goes through and um cuz they they
01:11:39
allowed in so much stuff uh that I think they just shouldn't have and I don't think they got a fair trial and it's sad
01:11:46
that these guys are in jail again whether they did it or not that's not the point it's a justice system all
01:11:52
right Captain what are your other thoughts all right so I think um my gut feeling is that they are innocent that
01:12:02
they they they didn't do this I don't think it was enough of a motivation you have a pretty wealthy family that seems
01:12:10
to be helping you out doing things you're in a nice College what's this yeah I know it's a few hundred, and you
01:12:17
think that's like a really big deal but how much is that going to change your life mhm I don't know if it's enough of
01:12:24
a motivation to kill your whole family for a few hundred, now one of the points of
01:12:32
evidence to me other than the fact that we have so many eyewitnesses that claim that they saw them right mhm one of the
01:12:40
major points for me that I I can't really get over and so I can't say that they're guilty is the sister now I think
01:12:47
a lot of people see that oh well we came home and we noticed the mom's dead and we noticed my dad's dead and I could
01:12:54
hear my sister and I think a lot of people go well he needed her to die that's why he didn't help her right so
01:13:02
that would point to him being guilty but you call the police you know she's not dead there's a chance that the
01:13:10
police are going to get there in time and by the way when the police can't find the house what are you doing hey
01:13:18
we're over here mhm if you need her to die so you can get this money [Music] right and then you don't have her to you
01:13:27
know you're not going to be responsible for her then you don't need the cops to get there right away and you can let it
01:13:33
the time elapse even more mhm you know what I mean so yeah you show up after the movies and after you get done at
01:13:40
this club mom's dead dad's dead sister's Not Dead Yet now you got an option you can finish her off or you can just wait
01:13:49
an hour or so and then call police or when police are coming there you don't flag them down mhm so that's the one uh
01:13:59
piece of evidence that that I can't say that they're guilty because of that piece of evidence all right so these two
01:14:06
pieces of evidence to me that I can't say that they're 100% innocent are this during Sebastian's confession he says
01:14:15
these murders took place during when they were supposed to be in the movie theater and then the forensic evidence
01:14:21
matched that so out of all the things that he might have got wrong or might have not
01:14:27
remembered he got the time of death of when they had to be at the house right he got the time frame right a small
01:14:36
window of time he got that exactly right right and what is super odd here is that
01:14:43
he has done this before and high school he wrecked his car and when he wrecked his car he decided that he was going to
01:14:52
to try to create an alibi and he did so by saying he moved the pieces that of the wreckage moved his car moved him to
01:15:03
a movie theater right then got tickets or whatever and so to kind of claim like well I wasn't involved in the crash now
01:15:12
this is a big lie this is fraud this is a big deal this is this is Criminal stuff and I know that his father and so
01:15:21
many other people have said but these were just little kids at the time yeah but sometimes little kids create murders
01:15:28
and that makes them awful pieces of [ __ ] right so this this is a bad thing this
01:15:33
is lying this is fraud um what however you look at insurance companies who cares it's the fact is it's a big deal
01:15:41
and he's tried to do this Alibi before I think that's very fishy so not only does
01:15:45
he get the time correctly he also tried to use this as an alibi earlier in his life and because of those two things uh
01:15:54
this is going to become a red light case for me I mean it already has where I I have thought oh well see but this makes
01:16:01
them look innocent but all you see this makes them look guilty I've changed my opinion four or five times in the past
01:16:08
two weeks yeah but we both agree that the way they got these confessions were was wrong wrong just wrong and they
01:16:14
shouldn't have been used at trial and if they weren't used that trial I don't think they would have been able to get a
01:16:19
conviction all right Captain how about a little recommended reading for this week
01:16:23
all right mes we're recommending beautifully cruel so lovely so Twisted by award-winning journalist M William
01:16:30
Phelps this is heart pounding story storytelling at its best Phelps gives us a chilling account of the last person
01:16:37
anyone would assume to be a cold-hearted killer a beautiful devoted mother and housewife in a small town this housewife
01:16:45
seemed to have it all but beneath the happy facade was a woman who used lies manipulation sex and even murder to to
01:16:53
serve her own selfish needs check out beautifully cruel so lovely so Twisted by m William Phelps yeah you can check
01:17:00
out all of our recommended reading since the beginning since we started doing the
01:17:04
recommended reading just go to our website truecrime garage.com and click on the recommended page and while you're
01:17:09
at the website go to the blog page because I want to hear if you think that these guys are guilty if they're
01:17:16
innocent so join in the conversation all right now we want everybody out there yeah all right we want to thank
01:17:23
everybody for Join one more time we'll try three four more times we want to thank everybody for joining us in the
01:17:30
garage we give you a cheers whether it be a long distance or one nearby close how about a little Shiner holiday cheers
01:17:37
right to warm the heart this cold this cold cold week that we've had my feet are freezing right now all right until
01:17:45
next time friends be good be kind and don't litter [Music] [Applause] [Music] you can live out your Master Chef dreams
01:18:20
when you find a professional on Angie to tackle your dream kitchen remodel connect with skilled
01:18:26
professionals to get all your home projects done well visit angie.com you can do this when you Angie that