00:00:00
foreign [Music] foreign garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks for listening I'm your host
00:00:46
Nick and with me as always as a man who has mad hits like Rod Carew he is the captain Oh How I miss Adam yalk the
00:00:56
genius that is Adam yaok it's good to be seen and it's good to see you thanks for
00:01:01
listening and thanks for telling a friend [Music] our friends over at flying monkeys Craft
00:01:12
brewery would like to remind us all that normal is weird and that's why this week
00:01:17
Captain we are drinking killer cupcake Panda this is a wonderful double IPA brewed with pandan leaves and saber hops
00:01:26
it's got a bit of a sweet finish to it which I like chasing the bitterness ABV 8.3 garage grade four and three quarter
00:01:36
bottle caps out of five and this week our fridge is loaded up thanks to our good friends first up we have Sophie Ash
00:01:43
and Alba all from Shipley England yeah and monkeys might fly out of me bum a big shout out to Amanda in Johnstown
00:01:51
Ohio look there's one of those monkeys right now that you're talking about next up we have a cheers to Melissa in
00:01:59
Montgomery Texas and a big shout out to Daniel on Poway California next up we have Irene all the way over in
00:02:06
Wellington New Zealand and last but certainly not least we have Piers sending a long distance greetings from
00:02:13
Qatar thank you all for filling up the fridge for this week's show if you want to help us out with next week's show go
00:02:18
to True Crime garage.com and click on the Donate button while you're there the captain says check out the store Page
00:02:25
the captain and I finally got our very own true crime garage hats yeah we are now proud owners of the hats we didn't
00:02:35
get them the first time sold out they sold out again I who knows who knows but we got our
00:02:41
hats and that's all that matters make sure you follow us on social media Twitter Facebook Instagram at True Crime
00:02:50
garage make sure you check out our bonus weekly show off the Record it's off the
00:02:55
Izzy it's your app yeah to check that out that is enough of the business everybody
00:03:03
gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime foreign [Music]
00:03:20
[Music] it took almost two years to find the remains of Heather Church in the crime
00:03:28
scene where the remains were found offered no clues as to who the perpetrator of this abduction and murder
00:03:34
could be The Daily Sentinel ran an article with the headline girls remains found after
00:03:41
two-year search this from the Associated Press the article labeled Timothy belbeck the man
00:03:48
who found her skull and reported his findings as a transient camper and states the death was ruled a
00:03:55
homicide and the coroner's report indicates Heather suffered blunt force trauma to the Head
00:04:01
this article has some interesting pieces of information in here as well it goes on to say Heather was last seen
00:04:08
wearing white cotton pajamas and no shoes she had laid out an outfit for school and her bedding was rumpled as if she
00:04:18
was asleep until something had awakened her enter Lou Smith who is Lou Smith Captain he's a
00:04:27
detective that likes to climb in and out of Windows he's probably best known for
00:04:33
his involvement in the JonBenet Ramsey case I think he's on the smaller side too
00:04:39
captain that might make give him the the extra super ability of climbing in and out of Windows you think so I I don't
00:04:46
think he looks small to me but I didn't either but I read some story where he decided when he first became a police
00:04:54
officer he needed to bulk up because he was like I want to say he was like five six to
00:05:01
maybe five seven but like 150 pounds when he first started on the force he got into some situation where he said
00:05:09
a a large woman was attempting to drag him across the street and she was having some success
00:05:18
and that's when he decided I gotta start going to the gym I gotta beef up if I'm
00:05:22
going to be yeah I think that was my mother [Laughter] well you know I know a term super cop loose Smith is
00:05:30
certainly a super cop in his career he worked on more than 200 murder cases in which a suspect had been arrested and
00:05:39
tried for their crimes he was a detective with the Colorado Springs Police Department he joined the force
00:05:46
way back in 1966 and worked his way all the way up to the rank of detective Lou helped to get the arrest and conviction
00:05:56
of spree killer Freddie Glenn in his accomplice Michael Corbett Glenn was found guilty of murdering three people
00:06:04
in 1975. yeah one of them being uh Karen grammar that's correct this included the
00:06:11
killing of Karen grammar younger sister of actor Kelsey Grammer he was also involved in the arrest and
00:06:19
conviction of Michael Corbett this was Freddie Glenn's accomplice so together we have Glenn who was found
00:06:27
guilty of murdering three people 1975 Glenn and Corbett together were responsible for a total of five deaths
00:06:34
in and around Colorado Springs back in 1975. so now I would like to introduce you to
00:06:43
another man John Anderson now I'm not talking about money in the bank and seminal wind John Anderson no
00:06:50
I'm talking about the John Anderson who I will deem to be another Super cop Anderson was sworn in in January of 1995
00:07:00
as El Paso County's new sheriff and with him came Lou Smith Anderson wanted two things one for Lou
00:07:10
Smith to take over as Captain of detectives in El Paso County and two to solve Heather Church's case which by
00:07:19
this time 1995 was looking like it would never be solved in the over three years of the case law
00:07:27
enforcement really only developed per the evidence in interviews a few suspects some of the members of Heather's church
00:07:35
at one point turned on one another 's Sunday school teacher and a family friend were questioned extensively
00:07:44
as were Heather's parents everyone police in the FBI looked at either had an iron-clad alibi passed a polygraph
00:07:53
test or both again this included Heather's parents Diane and Mike definitely a lot of Suspicion towards
00:08:00
the parents I think when you have a case like this where you have no leads no clues
00:08:08
that's kind of where the direction that it just naturally takes on yeah now in 1995 Lou Smith took over as Captain of
00:08:18
detectives and he took over the Heather Church investigation Lou is pretty old school and he said
00:08:26
that regardless of what other people thought that they knew about the case Mike and Diane Church were not suspects
00:08:33
he said he knew very early on in his investigation that they together nor separate were involved in any way
00:08:42
after meeting them both and speaking with them separately Smith believed they were truly victims and far too good of
00:08:50
people to do something so terrible it's not clear whether or not they took polygraph tests
00:08:57
in the past or not right the information I have that came from the sheriff's department states that they did okay
00:09:05
now Smit also offered up after speaking with the parents he offered up some of his expert
00:09:12
opinions on the case to the parents of Heather he told them he would catch the man that
00:09:18
killed her he said he believed the perpetrator was an intelligent male and that his name was already in the case
00:09:26
File he also believed unlike the FBI that the motive behind why the perp entered the
00:09:33
church home may not have been sexual Smith wanted to start his investigation at the very beginning in reviewing the
00:09:42
case he noted the recovery of fingerprints from the crime scene Captain Schmidt recognized that although
00:09:49
the prince had been forwarded to both the FBI and the CBI he was aware that there were in fact 92 separate automated
00:09:58
fingerprint identification systems or aphis for short so here we are once more captain at the Leighton fingerprints
00:10:07
left on the master bedroom window screen from inside Heather Church's house yeah
00:10:13
it seems like that's the biggest piece of evidence we have forensics expert Thomas Carney was the
00:10:20
man who educated Smith on the trouble with the fingerprint systems in fact Carney he came from Miami he worked in
00:10:29
law enforcement in Miami he was the first person to compile a list of the aphis systems in the United States
00:10:37
Canada and Mexico in Short North America as said this number as of 1995 was 92 of these
00:10:48
systems Kearney put together 92 sets of black and white photographs of the prints that
00:10:55
they found on the window screen and this was to be mailed off to all 92 automated finger printing identification
00:11:04
systems in March of 1995 they got the call they were waiting on for years so sound the trumpets captain
00:11:16
we're still working on the trumpets near the garage that was good taking lessons
00:11:22
that was good but I mean we we need some actual real trumpets uh they got a match in fact they got two
00:11:30
matches one in California and one in Louisiana so 92 of these different places they send off these photographs
00:11:37
two of them call back and say hey we got a match for you on those fingerprints that you sent us the fingerprints were
00:11:45
matched to 42 year old Phelan Robert Charles Brown who lived at 16660 eastonville Road and he was one of the
00:11:58
church's nearest Neighbors he lived in a double wide about a half a mile from the Church's home where he
00:12:04
lived with his wife Brown worked a tree farm located on his property where he lived
00:12:10
Brown was arrested for a burglary and vehicle theft in Louisiana where he served 10 months
00:12:18
he was also charged with something in California and I believe he may have served a little bit of time there but
00:12:23
his record he has a record but it's for nothing nearly as heinous as abduction or murder
00:12:31
in 1987 his parole was transferred from Louisiana to the state of Colorado the fingerprints found inside the crime
00:12:39
scene at the church's house were submitted and resubmitted over the years to the Colorado Bureau of
00:12:47
Investigation but for whatever reason when Brown when his parole was transferred his
00:12:53
prints were never entered into the CBI system so even though they're checking them
00:12:59
there's nothing there to match them to four days after they got the match they arrested Brown outside of a store in
00:13:08
town and brought him to the station for questioning the first thing that they wanted to know
00:13:14
of course did Brown know the churches he said no in fact he said he was a loner and he and his wife did not
00:13:23
socialize much but we know their neighbors yeah but he lives a half a mile away right
00:13:29
so again it's when we talk about these different cases it's important to always kind of keep in mind the lay of the land
00:13:38
they own that big property he owned a decent sized property as well he was what I believe is reported to be their
00:13:46
nearest neighbor but that's half a mile away they really wanted to know had he ever
00:13:52
been to the church's house and this would be for any reason at all right no he said in fact the closest to their
00:14:00
home that he had ever been was when he assisted a delivery truck that broke down on the side of the road near the
00:14:07
church's long driveway out to the road that is exactly what they wanted to hear got him got him Captain right got him
00:14:14
yeah because if if this guy was known if Robert Brown was known to do like handiwork in the area
00:14:23
and they go hey were you ever in their house oh yeah well I was I wasn't friends with them but I I did some
00:14:29
painting for them wow where did you do the painting oh master bedroom the other bit you know I mean right like then it
00:14:37
put it gives you it gives a reason why the fingerprint should be there or could be there
00:14:43
yeah and really so key to this case as you just stated he has given no reason at all for his
00:14:52
fingerprints to be there let alone be inside of the home well mind you this is a dumbass where where the prints were
00:14:59
found were found technically inside the home yeah because of the here's the thing is they ask you about your
00:15:06
neighbors you you know that this girl was abducted right so if you just start lying and saying well yeah you know I
00:15:16
went over there a couple times and I'm sure they asked the family and and I'm sure they didn't but
00:15:25
I don't know that'd be covering your ass a little bit let's get into that a bit because this part of the story is quite
00:15:31
interesting I think really when they arrested him at this store that was not their intention
00:15:40
they actually wanted to set up um they wanted to catch him meaning they wanted to get him in a conversation
00:15:47
asking him questions about the church homicide and and catch him that way but catch him
00:15:55
off guard meaning that that he doesn't know that they are looking specifically at him right so once they get the match
00:16:02
on the fingerprints their idea is okay let's send a handful of officers and detectives out into the area and let's
00:16:12
knock on everybody's door again and let's ask these sets of questions that way he thinks it's all this is just all
00:16:19
routine you know we're we're doing a return routine questioning of everybody in the
00:16:25
area we're not specifically looking at you right this is where they were hoping that he would say I've never been to
00:16:32
their house and the problem was when they sent all the officers out into the area he was
00:16:38
already under surveillance at that point he left to go shopping and at some point they got nervous the
00:16:47
law enforcement got nervous and said we have to arrest this guy they were really
00:16:51
worried that when they Place him in cuffs and say look you're being arrested for the murder of Heather Dawn church
00:16:58
right that as you said he's a dumbass that he would wise up and go oh yeah I I was there to do yard work or whatever
00:17:06
yeah I babysit him yeah because even even if the churches said no that's not the truth now he said she said you yeah
00:17:14
you have his word against theirs yeah now the reason why police believe that he wasn't smart enough to come up with
00:17:23
something like that yeah no actually they think that that he was so convinced that he never
00:17:31
left his fingerprints there meaning they believed that he was wearing gloves during the abduction and he may have
00:17:38
taken them off very briefly to replace the the screen right and very likely he's being questioned about this three
00:17:45
years later he remembers that he wore gloves to the crime scene but doesn't remember taking them off for a very
00:17:51
brief time yeah that makes a lot of sense so he's so surprised by this whole deal of him leaving fingerprints there
00:17:58
that he tells them straight up he's he's without a lawyer at this point in the questioning and he's telling them
00:18:05
there's no way possible that those are my fingerprints he said I don't doubt that you found fingerprints there I
00:18:12
doubt that they're mine and they say well we have your fingerprints back from when you were arrested in Louisiana and
00:18:18
we we checked them they got a match in Louisiana we got a match with your old fingerprints in California he goes well
00:18:25
that's well and good but people make mistakes my fingerprints could have been mixed up with somebody else's you know
00:18:31
what you put your testing or pictures he's saying take my fingerprints right now and test them again because I'm
00:18:37
telling you my fingerprints were not there right that's how adamant he was and they did so and they checked it
00:18:43
again right so now you have that in your back pocket as the detectives are questioning uh Robert Charles Brown yeah
00:18:51
and during all of this remember he's he's asking for everything to be tested again take new fingerprints
00:18:58
they're doing all this stuff test it again and while they're doing this they talk him into a polygraph test yeah and
00:19:07
later he's told he failed the test and he's told again it doesn't matter how many times we
00:19:13
fingerprint you and run the test they're still matching the set that we found on
00:19:17
the window screen at the Church's home right the other thing too Captain is during
00:19:22
these interviews while they're being conducted the police were at Brown's home they're searching the place they
00:19:29
already had a search warrant before they arrested him there they found girls clothing and
00:19:35
girls jewelry stuffed into a pillowcase he has no children [Music] this is a bit unexplained what this
00:19:44
stuff was or where it came from what is explained is that none of it belonged to
00:19:48
Heather they also go it's probably trophies of some kind yeah so they found stolen items from another
00:19:59
home that was another residence that was kind of nearby so these could have just been things
00:20:06
that they don't have to be from another murder victim they could be things that he stole from somebody's home
00:20:12
they found this is just straight up bizarre I've never heard of this before but I do know
00:20:18
people steal these types of things I've just never found one in any of the cases
00:20:22
we've covered they found a stolen Bobcat earth mover machine worth eighteen thousand dollars
00:20:29
now Captain you and I both know that is not a small machine that's a large thing to have stolen from
00:20:37
someone apparently I don't know why he stole it he must have used it for some kind of work keep
00:20:44
in mind he had that tree farm he had a big plot of land there's some suspicions as to what he
00:20:50
could have used it for but his his wife was aware that he stole this large machine she said he used it the only
00:20:59
thing that she knew that he used it for was he dug a big hole with it drove the machine into the hole and then attempted
00:21:08
to cover it up attempted to bury it or just cover it up bury the machine uh as said he they found stolen items
00:21:17
from another house or other residences in the area this is uh you know some of the more alarming stuff they found
00:21:24
newspaper clippings a lot of them regarding Heather Church's case he was in fact arrested that day and
00:21:32
charged with murder he would be offered eventually eventually pretty quickly after the arrest he was offered a deal
00:21:40
an offer to his public defender this would be so he could avoid the death penalty
00:21:49
and this likely may have been the best case scenario for the investigator seeing that
00:21:55
at this point when they make this offer all they have as far as evidence goes is
00:22:02
his fingerprints right later on they did get Brown's wife to admit that he was not home the night
00:22:10
Heather vanished so we have a fingerprint and we have no solid Alibi correct now he Brown maintained his innocence
00:22:20
when he spoke with the police but he did ultimately end up pleading guilty to murder this so he could avoid the death
00:22:27
penalty and trade he got life in prison this move was quite interesting the prosecutor
00:22:39
they didn't really think that that brown or his attorney would take the bait take
00:22:46
the plea deal right because again such little evidence they really made a strong push and what
00:22:52
they did was they were vetting this guy they were calling where they knew he was
00:22:58
from this guy had moved around a lot they called his hometown where he lived for a long period of time and realized
00:23:05
that former neighbors of his one of them had gone missing and one of them was murdered oh great both of those
00:23:13
cases unsolved in fact the missing woman on top of on top of Heather Church's case correct yeah and so what their
00:23:23
threat was we'll call it a threat their threat to the the defense attorney was he he should probably hurry up and plead
00:23:32
guilty to this before we find another body right so ultimately that's what took place the
00:23:39
prosecutor did check with Heather's parents first to make sure that they were okay with them making an offer
00:23:46
Heather's mother Diane said if he is willing to plead guilty she is willing to let him sit in prison for the rest of
00:23:54
his life thank you all right welcome back cheers everybody cheers crispy Colonel
00:24:18
oh cheers to you through the glass the crispiest they've separated us I feel like I'm in solitary confinement well
00:24:25
that's where you belong oh I I can't see you all I do is hear voices so while Robert Brown never confessed to the
00:24:32
detectives and never confessed in court it's believed that he confessed to Susan
00:24:37
Lawrence this was his placement counselor and what he told her she passed along to authorities so let's go
00:24:47
through this what what she told the authorities he said to her she said that he Brown enjoyed roaming
00:24:56
his neighborhood at night looking for houses to burglarize sometimes he would take things sometimes
00:25:03
he wouldn't when he went to the church's residence there were two lights on inside the
00:25:10
house and no cars in the driveway and he did not think that anyone was home he was surprised by Heather Church
00:25:18
inside the house and killing her he says was unintentional Brown said that he did Kill Heather
00:25:27
inside the home he placed one hand over her mouth and one hand on her neck he demonstrated this to Miss Lawrence
00:25:37
when he's telling her this story and said he recalled doing this for only a couple of seconds he thought but now
00:25:46
believes it must have been for a longer period of time he assumed that he had strangled her
00:25:53
because she was dead when it was over now Mrs Lawrence asked Brown if it was possible that he had broke her neck
00:26:04
and to which he replied that that was a possibility yeah because I mean Brown's a pretty big guy he's like six three
00:26:12
roughly yeah yeah Robert Brown said he placed Heather Church's body in the back of his pickup
00:26:18
truck and drove to the mountains where he disposed of the body he denied having any sexual contact with Heather Church
00:26:26
all right so bamboom Bang case closed get my coat time to tip my hat and ride nope you're you're locked up you're
00:26:39
right captain that is not it because there's much more to the story in 1996 Robert Charles Brown who is supposed to
00:26:48
be rotting away in his cell in Colorado Street State Corrections he receives a letter this is an
00:26:56
anonymous letter the letter says you got screwed and here's why there was something wrong with Colorado
00:27:04
state law and from July 9th to September 20th of 1999. [ __ ] I was good up to September 20th
00:27:17
of 1991 Colorado was without a death penalty this is truly bizarre we've never come
00:27:26
across anything like this in any of our cases so what that means is when the night
00:27:34
when she was abducted when Heather was removed from the home technically the state of Colorado for
00:27:41
that very brief time period less than 90 days didn't have the death penalt does not
00:27:47
have the death penalty so the offer then of hey plead guilty and we take the death penalty off the table it was never
00:27:54
on the table because it didn't exist during the the time frame in which she disappeared [ __ ] offer
00:28:02
yeah so this gets pointed out to him and now we have the appeals process but who
00:28:07
whoever's pointed it out to this scumbag yeah why is this is also a scumbag Let It Be we got screwed well good right
00:28:15
unless it was one of those things where um the guy was trying to rub it in his face you know like you're so stupid he
00:28:22
didn't know this oh yeah I mean but you know what you got screwed because the case took so many years to apprehend
00:28:30
somebody right I don't think that the prosecutors did anything malicious here I don't think they were aware either no
00:28:37
like you said it was a small window like a 90-day window yeah it's just one of these weird inconsistencies one of these
00:28:44
weird little glitches that was that was going on they're unaware of it so any anyway now we have
00:28:50
the appeals process he's got a pretty damn good appeal when you think about it hey I pled guilty to something that only
00:28:57
because the death penalty was being thrown in my face in the face in the face well
00:29:06
the current prosecutor the the one that now has to face these Appeals comes up with a great plan
00:29:14
he says to the court system look she was abducted on the 17th this whole thing with with the no death penalty
00:29:24
expired on the 20th that's just a couple days later he's also saying it took us all this
00:29:31
time to solve the case she was found over 20 miles away from her home where she was abducted
00:29:38
we the prosecutor's office believe that the crime was sexual nature that the motive was sexual nature
00:29:45
and based off of all of that evidence in theory and thought it is our argument that we cannot say
00:29:53
for certain that her murder occurred on the 17th that it's very likely he may have kept her for a couple of days and
00:30:01
the murder occurred on the 20th or even later to this the appeals Courts at least two
00:30:08
of them that I could find they agreed with that they said look you can't prove the date of when she was
00:30:15
killed and if you do you know he's in all kinds of trouble and all kinds of mess here because now if you go back to
00:30:24
um he proves what day she was killed then he proves that he killed her and he boom he still ends up with life in
00:30:29
prison right so I I think that's just truly fascinating and the prosecutor later came out said
00:30:37
look I thought my argument was a good one but a weak one it was intelligent argument but it was a very weak one he
00:30:43
thought that they would lose turns out that they win this thing got all the way up to I believe the Colorado
00:30:50
Supreme Court state supreme court to which I think they tossed it out and said we don't even want to look at this
00:30:57
thing truly when you have a child killer nobody wants this guy to get out on some kind
00:31:07
of technicality well yeah and on top of that you think he's possibly linked to other crimes
00:31:13
that's correct and that's still not the end of our story Captain because on March 30th 2000
00:31:21
Robert Brown sent an unsolicited letter to the Fourth Judicial District Attorney's Office in Colorado Springs
00:31:29
the letter was addressed to whom it may concern inside this letter and I don't have the
00:31:36
full letter itself I don't know if the full letter has ever been released to the public
00:31:42
but there is within this letter a statement from Brown this says this is very cryptic
00:31:49
seven sacred virgins entombed side by side those less worthy are scattered wide the letter taunted investigators
00:32:00
claiming the score is you won the other team 48. the obvious reference here being that
00:32:10
he was arrested tried and convicted of the murder of Heather Dawn church right they scored
00:32:18
one the other team must be him Robert Brown he's got a score of 48. so obviously
00:32:25
he's implying that he's involved in other crimes possibly other murders another statement included in this
00:32:34
letter says if you were to drive to the end zone in a white Trans Am the score could be 9 to 48. that would complete
00:32:43
your home court sphere oh this guy's a real dumbass Brown closed the letter by demanding that he
00:32:51
not be contacted now there was a second letter that was sent so he sent a letter and then then he
00:32:59
said don't contact me and here's another letter they sent another letter yeah the second letter from my
00:33:06
understanding I believe even less of that letter has been uh uh reported over the years maybe maybe
00:33:14
even some of the statements I just read could have been from the second letter itself it's all very cryptic his
00:33:20
writings and what has been released is it's not clear if it's if some of the letters are just short
00:33:27
and they were released in their entirety and then other letters were longer and only bits and pieces were actually
00:33:33
released but what we do know with the second letter there that one included a map
00:33:41
and we would later learn that the map was he took a piece of paper put it over over a map like in an atlas and
00:33:49
made the outlines of several different states and so he outlined the state of Washington California Colorado New
00:33:58
Mexico Oklahoma Texas Arkansas Mississippi and Louisiana and inside each one of those states that
00:34:09
he outlined he put a number this number totaling up to 48. so almost indicating that
00:34:17
with inside this state for instance state of Washington he wrote the number one I've killed one person
00:34:25
in the state of Colorado he put the number nine in Louisiana the number being the
00:34:31
highest of all the numbers was 17. this Captain I believe probably would have went nowhere
00:34:38
because he's writing to the District Attorney's Office in Colorado Springs they don't seem to have any interest in
00:34:47
corresponding with inmate Robert Brown turns out that about two years later A Man Named
00:34:57
Charlie Hess is going to send a letter to Robert Brown he doesn't know that Robert Brown has in fact sent these
00:35:05
letters already to the District Attorney's office Charlie Hess is a former CIA agent
00:35:12
and he was working with a guy and I say working they were kind of doing this as as a hobby
00:35:18
but Charlie hassle along with some other individuals were working with Lou Smith
00:35:22
all these guys were pretty much retired by this time what they would do is they would get together about once a week
00:35:30
they would hang out they would eat pastries drink coffee smoke cigarettes and they would talk about old cases
00:35:38
and really what they were focusing on was they were wanting to take on some cold cases all of these individuals were
00:35:46
involved in law enforcement or the CIA at some time this would be a good group of people to volunteer to take on a Cold
00:35:53
Case now during some of their discussions it comes up that one of the individuals
00:36:02
wants to know hey Lou or anybody here in our group has anybody worked in putting away a murderer that they
00:36:12
believe was truly a very dangerous person that was was a serial killer was one of these people that had
00:36:20
numbers you know multiple murders that they had committed Lou Smith says to his group
00:36:28
I always felt Robert Charles Brown was a serial killer and so much so that when we were working to put him away we were
00:36:36
aware that way back in Louisiana a neighbor of his one went missing and another neighbor was found dead was
00:36:44
found murdered so there's already a bit of a connection I I've seen a lot of people cover this
00:36:52
portion of the story and a lot of people have done a good job in doing so but what is usually lost in
00:37:01
this Heather Church's case is usually kind of a a by the way or a way to kick start the whole story of Robert Brown
00:37:09
and his Communications with these Cold Case volunteer investigators right and often it's reported that Lou Smith just
00:37:19
had some kind of sixth sense that he was uh it was a gut feeling that he had been
00:37:23
working the these types of cases so long that he just had a sixth sense that Robert Brown was a serial killer he had
00:37:30
he had a sense that Robert Brown was a serial killer because they were aware of a missing former neighbor of his and a
00:37:38
murdered former neighbor of his doesn't take much to you know you don't have to have a sixth sense to come up with that
00:37:46
Heather Dawn church was a neighbor of his as well so you see a similar type of Mo
00:37:53
it's really a bit of a shame that when we talk about these cases from Louisiana I find it strange that within just a
00:38:03
handful of months these two cases take place we have a murder somebody goes missing both of these individuals
00:38:11
were neighbors of his but they were neighbors within the same apartment complex as him
00:38:16
and further Robert Brown worked as the maintenance man for this apartment complex his brother I believe was the
00:38:25
owner or the landlord of these apartments it's really strange to me that they weren't able to make any type of
00:38:33
connection I think with the missing woman with her case that the husband was Under Suspicion and that would make an
00:38:42
obvious reason why you wouldn't connect them but with with the missing woman she
00:38:50
apparently had the doors had the locks on her doors changed the day before by the maintenance man of the apartment
00:38:58
complex who in fact was Robert Brown it seems like there would have been a connection to some of these individuals
00:39:06
yeah and even though Robert Brown claimed that he didn't want to be contacted there would be a bunch of
00:39:12
corresponding emails for years yeah well letters right and so it's almost like Charlie has kind of
00:39:22
befriended Robert Charles Brown and got him to open up we have a man who says he
00:39:27
doesn't want to talk it is in Charlie's Arsenal though that he is aware that look this is the guy that opened up the
00:39:36
dialogue he started the dialogue on some psychological level he does want to talk
00:39:42
and so I'm going to work that angle and see what I can get from him it's interesting that you have a guy a serial
00:39:49
killer locked up and I will I will say serial killer because I believe him to be just that but we have someone like
00:39:57
we've seen so many times before now he's coming out playing this game of I know more than you know and here's all the
00:40:05
other bad things that I've done but oh I'm not going to tell you all the bad things that I've done I'm going to hint
00:40:10
and nudge and wink you through it and you gotta figure it out on your own it's all really truly
00:40:20
I mean it's a lot of it I feel is [ __ ] and I don't really want to waste anybody's time here by going
00:40:27
through all of the correspondence because as you said this goes on for quite some time and really all Charles
00:40:33
Hess wants to do is he wants to sit down and speak with Robert Brown face to face
00:40:42
that's what Charlie Hess did in the CIA back in the day of the Vietnam War he was somebody that interviewed people
00:40:50
during wartime he gave lie detector tests during wartime he is extremely good at communicating with people
00:40:58
getting people to open up getting people to tell the story tell the truth and figuring out what are the truths and
00:41:06
what are the lies with inside their story he eventually threw befriending or at least letting Robert Charles Brown
00:41:14
believe that the two are friends got brown to allow him to speak with him face to face
00:41:21
and this all it did was open up correspondence because Brown was giving little hints and winks
00:41:28
and nudges saying I've killed roughly like you said Captain I've killed 48 people 47 of them you don't know about
00:41:36
and some of their talks and correspondence he had the number as high as 51. but he was really giving them nothing to
00:41:45
go off of he's like look I um they keep telling him you got to tell us more if you want us to clear any of
00:41:51
these cases we can't do anything with this and if you don't give us more information we don't think you're
00:41:56
serious we think that either you're making this [ __ ] up or you've lost it and you believe it to be true and it's
00:42:04
not true at all eventually they get him to talk and give more details on some of these cases
00:42:13
where he will go you know maybe give a nickname of an individual maybe give a spot where he uh dumped the body so on
00:42:22
and so forth and this leads them to throughout months and years of working on this this leads them to starting to
00:42:30
complete some of the story now mind you all of the states that he listed that he
00:42:35
drew on that map he did live in those States and they could find evidence that he in fact lived in those States at one
00:42:42
point and the three states that he listed as having the highest number of kills interestingly enough are the three
00:42:50
states where he spent the most time so there was some stuff there was some meat on the bone in the beginning for these
00:42:56
investigators to believe that there could be some truth to Robert Brown's story now we know with these Psychopaths and
00:43:06
these narcissists none of this would come without him getting something in return for offering up this information
00:43:15
he was unhappy with the way that he was being treated he did not like where he was being housed and he also didn't feel
00:43:21
that he was receiving proper medical treatment basically he wanted to transfer and again Charlie Hess pushed him and
00:43:30
said we can't help you unless you help us eventually through a lot of back and forth and through a lot of working and a
00:43:39
lot of hard work what we end up getting is we get another solved case because in
00:43:44
July of 2006 Brown pled guilty to the murder of Rocio Sperry this he was sentenced to life without
00:43:56
the possibility of parole for 40 years now unfortunately this did not come without brown getting something in
00:44:04
return Brown was then transferred to the state of Minnesota to serve out his time there
00:44:12
what's very weird here captain is I found an interview with Heather Church's father Mike
00:44:21
and I believe it was from 2015 or 16. where he had a complaint and a very valid complaint
00:44:29
he's saying because of Brown's manipulation of the system because he's working these deals to get
00:44:36
moved and and plead guilty to an unsolved case that he did not know where the killer of
00:44:46
his daughter was being housed and he felt that that was unfair and I agree 100 percent
00:44:53
because at some point Brown was moved and it wasn't public knowledge to know where he was located
00:45:00
I found a letter that is believed I have plenty of reason to believe that it was
00:45:06
written by Robert Brown where he states that at that time he was housed in Florida in the state of Florida
00:45:16
and there he is complaining that they reneged on the plea agreement that he was supposed to be in Minnesota
00:45:25
and after being in Minnesota for four years they transferred him to Florida where he does not want to be and I hope
00:45:32
he stays where he does not want to be welcome to Florida the thing captain that we have here and
00:45:41
I do want to say I am very um the thing that I want to say here Captain is that I think that is great
00:45:49
the work that Charlie has blue Smit and all of their little Cold Case volunteer work that they did is fantastic yeah I
00:45:58
don't want to say it's all [ __ ] and it's all for naught because they did get a conviction in the Rocio Sperry case
00:46:04
and that was so important not just to get another case off the books not just to get some answers but for so many
00:46:10
years her husband was thought to be the one that was guilty of her disappearance
00:46:16
and we now know that that's not true and that guy was a victim himself not just from being the husband of a of murder
00:46:25
victim but he was a victim of being thought of as being guilty of her disappearance and her murder for so many
00:46:34
years so I'm very glad and very happy that they got that one off the books I do think that a lot of Brown's
00:46:42
communication and a lot of what he hints at we talk about a number of 48 possible
00:46:48
victims I think that that's total bogus bogus I think it's a bogus number that he came up with we're talking about he's
00:46:57
saying this in the early 2000s and at the time I believe a number of 48 would put him at the highest number for
00:47:06
a serial killer that's who he wants to be he's never been anybody important he wants to be somebody important and he
00:47:14
does not mind the attention why because he is so guilty of Heather Dawn Church's
00:47:19
murder and now he's locked up in a place he does not want to be for life and he has nothing to do he is to put it quite
00:47:27
frankly he is Bored everything that he did when he was on the outside a lot of it being illegal a lot of of it being
00:47:35
perverted deviant Behavior he cannot do now and so he's come up with some kind of game to pass the time he's come up
00:47:43
with a number that makes him important when he is not I also think that part of this game is
00:47:51
he feels screwed by the prosecutor by the District Attorney's Office of Colorado
00:47:59
that because he as you said was dumb enough to one not give a good reason why he would have been at the church's house
00:48:08
two didn't lawyer up three agreed to the polygraph test in which he failed and then four
00:48:16
pleads guilty so he can avoid the death penalty yet there was no death penalty yeah so welcome to Florida dumbass I
00:48:24
think he feels tricked because he was he was an idiot he was stupid he was a [ __ ] he feels tricked
00:48:31
and now his way of retaliating is to send them on this wild goose chase keep in mind who did he direct his letter to
00:48:42
he didn't send it to the media he didn't send it to the El Paso County Sheriff's
00:48:46
Office he sent it to the district attorney's office the same district attorney's office that was able to put
00:48:53
him in prison for life for the death for the murder of Heather Dawn Church now I do believe with inside this 48
00:49:03
this magical number of 48 Captain I do believe that there are some other victims in there of note of of
00:49:11
of note of ones that he actually provided some detailed information this would be the uh murder of Catherine
00:49:21
Hayes from Louisiana Wanda Hudson and Faye self also of Louisiana Melody bush and Nadia Mendoza both from Texas
00:49:33
and then Lisa Lowe who was killed in Arkansas so while I do feel that a lot of his stuff
00:49:41
is probably [ __ ] I would love to see some further movement on some of these other cases where there was some
00:49:49
detailed information provided by Robert Brown unfortunately Lou Smith has passed away
00:49:57
he passed away he had cancer and by the time the cancer was founded it spread to
00:50:02
his entire body yeah but I agree a lot of good work here and Robert Charles Brown
00:50:09
deserves any bad thing that's coming his way the other thing about his if you want to try to call them
00:50:16
confessions regarding these murders even the ones where he offers detailed information what you will see is
00:50:26
him minimizing his involvement him minimizing his role in the murder of these individuals I personally believe
00:50:37
that most of his murders if not all of them were sexual in nature they they seem to
00:50:43
be that that was the motive the driving force for his actions I don't know about when he set out to
00:50:51
enter the home to Heather Dawn Church's house but what I will say here regarding his
00:50:58
[ __ ] confession that he offered up to his placement counselor what do you see there straight up
00:51:06
minimizes his involvement in the whole situation it makes it it's all so confusing to him
00:51:13
he killed her he didn't even really know why he killed her he didn't he didn't intend to kill her
00:51:18
and I think that is absolute BS I think that there's a lot of evidence that will
00:51:24
show that there was no reason for him to remove her from that house his confession somewhat makes it sound like
00:51:32
she surprised him and he reacted and before he could realize what was going on she was dead
00:51:39
there's evidence to suggest that she may have been sleeping when he came upon her
00:51:44
that night right and if he was afraid or got scared all of a sudden because he entered a home that he thought was empty
00:51:52
and he reacted and that was the result you just can't believe that because if she was sleeping he had the opportunity
00:51:59
to be afraid and then leave the home after he was in the home and when he left there the only thing that was
00:52:07
missing from that home was that little girl [Music] a lot of really good sources for this case here Captain one
00:52:23
of the better ones is the newspaper The Gazette they covered this case pretty extensively over the years and did a
00:52:31
very good job one of the best sources is this week's recommended reading it's a book titled the devil's right-hand man
00:52:39
the true story of serial killer Robert Charles Brown you can write that title down now so you can pick that up and
00:52:47
find out more if you're busy just go to our website later go to our recommended page go to truecrime garage.com we will
00:52:55
have that title there for you so you can make that selection and add that to your
00:53:00
library we want to thank everybody for listening we want to thank everybody for the wonderful five star reviews and we
00:53:08
want to thank you all for telling your friends about True Crime garage until next time be good be kind and don't live
00:53:21
foreign [Music]