00:00:00
foreign [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
00:00:45
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man that insists that Willie Nelson file his taxes for
00:00:52
him ladies and gentlemen the independently wealthy Captain yeah I had a bunch of money till the government
00:00:58
took my hashish money it's good to be seen good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling a friend
00:01:09
thank you foreign ice box we have a little tramps like us IPA from intersect Brewing this is a
00:01:21
citrusy IPA with an ABV of 6.5 percent and a garage grade of three and three quarter bottle caps out of five let's
00:01:29
give some cheers to our good friends that helped us out with this week's beer fun first up it cheers to Andy and
00:01:36
Charles at the Columbia River Roadhouse in Chinook yeah get some and a big we like your jib to Blair in Minneapolis
00:01:44
this next one is from Carlos Lewis and the young wolf from Liverpool England the young I feel like we just gave a
00:01:53
shout out to three dudes that are about to commit a bank heist yeah or maybe like three dudes that are raising the
00:01:59
kid as a wolf in the woods and we don't know if if she's a wolf or not she might
00:02:05
be a fox big shout out to Erica in Reston Virginia next up a big little cheers and a Ron Swanson please and
00:02:13
thank you to little Linda from koniko Studio in Dallas and last but certainly not least we have Aaron flipping lids
00:02:22
and Gig Harbor Washington thanks to everyone for helping us fill up this week's garage ice box yeah be though
00:02:30
edible arguing beer run if you'd like to help out the show and get something back
00:02:35
in return go to truecrimegarage.com click on the store Page pick you up a hoodie pick you up a
00:02:42
t-shirt pick you up a coffee mug so many things some beer pints you could pick up
00:02:47
some beer pints and that is enough of the business all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's
00:02:55
talk some true crime [Music] [Music] in June of 1965 Houston police officers forced their way into the home of Fred
00:03:19
and Edwina Rogers finding the elderly couple murdered in their bodies dismembered in the refrigerator or
00:03:27
icebox their 43 year old son Charles who lived in the home with the deceased couple was nowhere to be found based on
00:03:36
the autopsy the crime scene and the evidence investigators believe that Fred was killed by blows to the head with a
00:03:42
claw hammer and Weena had been beaten and shot execution style investigators believe that Charles their son killed
00:03:51
his parents dismembered them and cleaned up most of the blood the house was staged to have the appearance of a
00:03:58
robbery a search for Charles Rogers was launched and a warrant was issued for him as a material witness to the crime
00:04:06
this is a tactic that we've seen before in other murder investigations Captain where they are not saying this man is a
00:04:15
suspect they are not publicly saying this man murdered his parents what they are saying is we are searching for this
00:04:21
man the best we could do is get a material witness search warrant for this man right and we can't find him anywhere
00:04:29
locally very quickly within 24 to 48 hours of the discovery of the parents having been murdered
00:04:38
there's a nationwide man hunt for 43 year old Charles Rogers the difficult thing here is Charles lived at the home
00:04:47
possibly owned the home so fingerprints that's not going to matter Footprints not gonna matter
00:04:54
but what does matter is we have two dead parents and the house is filled with bleach
00:05:01
and I think that's the thing when when you talk about the fact that there might be some like
00:05:08
gambling or local mob or even National mob why would the mob clean up the house there's no point to it
00:05:21
or spend the time to dismember the bodies it's really if this was this membrane of the bodies could be to prove
00:05:27
a point that's true let's show you how vicious we are and so when you come home and again well maybe that's the reason
00:05:35
why there would have been any cleanup maybe the whole idea is you're going to come home you're not going to really
00:05:41
notice much difference in the house and then when you open up the refrigerator you're going to find your parents
00:05:48
chopped up and that's to send a message um I guess then the bleach would make sense
00:05:56
but doesn't make a lot of sense to me right I guess the the thought being here if it
00:06:01
was a robbery if it was a hit if it was a job that you go in you commit the murders and you leave you don't hang out
00:06:09
there for hours possibly days altering the crime scene and dismembering the bodies this case
00:06:16
reminds me of an FBI top 10 most wanted case that we covered in August of 2017 this is the Bradford Bishop case he was
00:06:25
age 39 he disappeared March 2nd back in 1976 from Bethesda Maryland shortly after allegedly murdering his wife
00:06:36
mother and children similar situation where everybody else that lived in the house was killed the bodies were later
00:06:45
moved and he attempted to burn them and fled the area the car the family car was found on an
00:06:54
isolated Campground in Tennessee similar situation to that that the only person left the last man standing if you
00:07:04
will is labeled the suspect because that is the closest point we can get from perpetrator to victims
00:07:14
and he Bishop has been on the FBI's most wanted list since 2014 I believe so they're still looking
00:07:24
for him Charles Rogers has never made it onto any of these lists I was looking for a state of Texas most wanted
00:07:33
fugitives the Harris County Houston City FBI top 10. he's never made it on to any
00:07:43
of these lists now mind you a lot of these lists that exist today did not exist in 1965 when he allegedly killed
00:07:52
his parents and fled the area the interesting thing though was they believed or at least worked on several
00:08:01
persons that they believed to have been Fred Rogers excuse me Charles Rogers now
00:08:08
part of that is it's a pretty common name so when they go oh there's a Charles Rogers in Oklahoma well we got to go
00:08:17
investigate him right well it's just a common name there were several people they went to several different cities in
00:08:24
Texas they went to Oklahoma I could find one case as far away as Michigan and this one looked like a really good lead
00:08:33
in Michigan because the Charles Rogers in Michigan had a pilot's license had his own plane
00:08:42
they were very quickly able to figure out that the pilot's license did not match up with that of the one Charles
00:08:50
Rogers that they in fact were looking for there's even this weird story too where locally on the local level
00:08:57
they locked up a guy and the guy said he was Charles Rogers and two people came forward and
00:09:03
identified him as the Charles Rogers they were looking for they held him in jail for several days only to find out
00:09:11
that the man was suffering from mental illness he was not who he said he was and the two people
00:09:17
that identified him they simply were mistaken it was somebody else entirely what became of this though is Charles
00:09:24
Rogers became somewhat of a ghost and he really became like the local Boogeyman for the kids of that
00:09:33
neighborhood and for the kids of Houston it was said that for several weeks after
00:09:39
the discovery of the bodies the police were guarding the house this is for several reasons one they thought that
00:09:48
there was a decent chance that Charles Rogers might return to the home at some point
00:09:53
gotta catch him the other thing was they were worried that vandals would come and vandalize
00:09:59
the home they couldn't do anything this would be the banks and the police they couldn't
00:10:06
do anything with the home because the owners regardless of how you shake this thing
00:10:12
out we talked about how Charles owned half the house or maybe he owned the entire house
00:10:18
the rightful owner of the home be it his parents and him or Charles by himself they could not locate them so they
00:10:26
couldn't just confiscate the home take over the home and take all the belongings out of there
00:10:32
so they watched the house for several weeks they didn't have any incidents where
00:10:37
Charles Rogers returned to the house they were not able to find him then what happens in this bizarre story is
00:10:46
they would go and periodically check on the house from time to time after several years had gone by now mind
00:10:55
you the house by this point has been abandoned for a long time the yard probably looks crazy the the house
00:11:02
probably looks scary and now you have these stories that are being told throughout the neighborhood of that's
00:11:10
the house where Charles Rogers killed his parents the police code to check on the house
00:11:17
they find a window in the side door were left open someone had entered the home and in the living room on the wall
00:11:28
someone wrote I killed my parents I am the Killer and whoever did this they believe rifle through the drawers and
00:11:37
and looked for any potential valuables before leaving the home right this story gets out and this scares the hell out of
00:11:47
the neighborhood kids who are now being told by some of the older kids things like you know somebody saw Charles
00:11:55
Rogers peeking in their window last week somebody saw Charles Rogers in the neighborhood there were even stories
00:12:05
where the older kids would tell the younger kids don't be out late at night by yourself or Charles Rogers will get
00:12:12
you cut you up into pieces and flush you down the toilet so yeah he became the local Boogeyman
00:12:19
and in 1975 a Houston judge declared Charles Rogers legally dead this is so the estate could
00:12:29
be probated this is even though the case still remained officially unsolved and open
00:12:36
with Charles Rogers being the only suspect the house then is allowed to be sold it sat there and sat there until
00:12:45
they eventually demolished the home with the furniture still inside I saw an article captain that said that
00:12:55
the the lot sat there vacant until 2000 until the year 2000 when Condominiums were built in that lot and probably the
00:13:06
surrounding area as well it's a very attractive building that they built but the neighbors were saying that
00:13:15
whether it would be on Halloween or the anniversary of the murders there would be people that would be there that would
00:13:21
take pictures or light candles or just people that are fascinated by the case locally yeah in 2012 culture map Houston
00:13:30
writer Sarah ruffka wrote a Chilling Tales article titled Houston's crime rate is low but its history is dark the
00:13:39
city's five most notorious murders the good news as the article starts out the year 2011 the city of Houston had fewer
00:13:48
homicides than any year since 1965. that is quite the accomplishment for a city as large as Houston oddly enough that is
00:13:58
the fewest amount of homicides since the year of the still unsolved double Frederick and Edwina Rogers homicides
00:14:07
the list like most places refer to this case as the icebox murders which Sarah placed at the number four spot on their
00:14:17
Houston's five most notorious murders list the list also included the 2001 case of Andrea Yates who drowned her
00:14:25
five children in the bathtub of their home she was later found not guilty by reason of insanity due to postpartum
00:14:33
depression and psychosis the other cases listed are the Sunday morning slasher case The Killing Fields case which we
00:14:43
which for all of the good people out there listening on Stitcher we covered this in our Killing Fields Trilogy in
00:14:50
August of 2017 and finally the serial killer Dean Coral the case which we covered as well in our
00:14:59
Candyman episodes in October of 2018. so certainly this case remains on the minds of people at the local level
00:15:08
and as you said Captain very much now folklore and local legend in the Houston area well like we both said chances are
00:15:19
he's the most likely suspect but what would his motives be well there are two prevailing theories as far as motive for
00:15:27
murder here because if we trace this thing it appears that he lived with his parents for a good deal
00:15:34
of time and then something happened that made him murder his parents and some have suggested that it was always
00:15:44
building up to this that the hatred that he had for his father that the disagreements that he had with his
00:15:50
mother him being weird them being weird his father potentially being abusive both physically and verbally to his son
00:16:00
some have even suggested that this carried on into Charles's adult life and may have still been going on roughly
00:16:09
about the time of the murders that it was this abuse that led to him losing it reacting and killing both of his parents
00:16:17
but the icing on the cake being that they were cheating him financially as well and at some point he discovered
00:16:28
this and chose to seek revenge against his parents and kill them both there is evidence to suggest
00:16:38
that a couple of things were going on here one that they were stealing money from
00:16:44
their son the way that these reports go Captain I want to be clear here some state that both parents were
00:16:52
knowing and willingly doing this other reports state that the father was the one doing this yeah
00:16:58
but they were stealing money from their son and remember we mentioned that there's evidence that says he owned a
00:17:06
good deal of property elsewhere what has come to light is that he found evidence
00:17:13
that his parents forged the documents to make it appear as they were the owners of that property and what they
00:17:25
were doing was they were borrowing against that property basically they stole the land from him right and took
00:17:33
out a loan against that land the value of the land they're collecting money based off of this and then we already
00:17:41
talked about the weird stuff with the house did it belong to them did it belong to Charles did they
00:17:48
was this a situation where he actually paid for the entirety of the house and they forged documents to make it look
00:17:54
like they owned half of it but again you're saying this is all speculation we don't have any
00:18:00
actual proof of this there is some proof I don't have any that I can cite right here for you today but I I do believe
00:18:08
that there's a good amount of proof for this because we have a book that came out and this would have been in 2000 and
00:18:18
three in October of 2003 Redbud publishing released the icebox murders this is a novel written by Hugh and
00:18:29
Martha Gardiner I'm hoping I'm saying their name correctly according to a review in the Houston Press the icebox
00:18:38
murders is written as fact-based fiction and supposition interesting that it's listed as this
00:18:45
it's not listed as true crime it's listed as fact-based fiction an interview with the authors Hugh states
00:18:54
that 85 percent of the book is fact the other 15 percent is fiction they weren't
00:19:01
able to get the True Crime category for their book based off of that the case is still technically
00:19:11
unsolved they believe that they've solved it one thing that I find fascinating regarding the financials the
00:19:18
financial element to the motive for murder here is that the married couple that wrote the book the icebox murders
00:19:27
they are both forensic accountants people that are able to take documents review documents and then find out the
00:19:38
reasons why and Trace everything back to how numbers got to be numbers and how statements got to be statements and if
00:19:47
in fact they are true or false well this guy's missing and he's never been found how does an
00:19:56
individual like this do that the book itself and their Theory Captain is not without a certain level of
00:20:05
conspiracy and that I think is why the authors are saying Hey look it's 85 percent fact 15
00:20:13
fiction or left to the unknown because in the book there are many unnamed characters and these are supposed to be
00:20:23
various politicians real life politicians and attorneys as well as possible eyewitnesses who may have saw
00:20:32
Rogers in other countries after these murders or maybe even helped him or employed him
00:20:40
after he fled the Houston area and essentially fled the United States because of the discovery of his killed
00:20:49
parents one thing that the authors cite and this is something that was hold back
00:20:57
information in the icebox murders case it came out three years after the murders so the murders were committed in
00:21:07
1965 well in 1968 there was a Houston Chronicle article where law enforcement was asking the public for their help
00:21:17
well you know for three years in the small area there was probably tons of rumors coming out
00:21:24
what they wanted was they wanted to identify a man who was using the name Anthony Pitts or to have the public come
00:21:33
forward and point out and say hey I know somebody using that name or I know Anthony Pitts here is where he is here
00:21:40
is his location so they could go speak with him why would they want to talk to somebody named Anthony Pitts well
00:21:48
they believe that this was an alias that Rogers was using to flee the area the way that The Story Goes is within a
00:22:00
day or two of the murders remember they were able to really narrow that down to just a few hours either late Saturday or
00:22:09
early Sunday morning the couple was killed inside their home so this would have been Monday or
00:22:15
Tuesday of that same week a man went into an office building applying for a job a welder job overseas now there's no
00:22:26
evidence to suggest that Charles Rogers was a welder ever was a welder at any point in his life however the man
00:22:33
matched Charles Rogers description and the key being here that the job was overseas if Charles Rogers is as smart
00:22:42
and Brilliant as they say he is I'm sure he thought he could figure out how to fake his way at least to the point to
00:22:48
getting out of the country he applied for this out of the country welder job using the
00:22:56
name Anthony Pitts right what the icebox murders book authors the husband and wife Hugh and Martha put together
00:23:05
they don't think that Charles Rogers was as much of a recluse as what the papers
00:23:11
would have us believe they think that he was out living a pretty full life when he was away from
00:23:17
his parents and away from the home so much so that he had a girlfriend the way that the story all ties in is
00:23:25
that they believe that Charles's girlfriend and they simply give the first name only as Gene worked at that
00:23:35
office building and he was going there not so much so to try to get this job out of the country it was more of a
00:23:44
way for him to get a vehicle remember we said that both of the vehicles that belong to the Rogers family were
00:23:50
inoperable the reports were that they were up on blocks in the driveway of the home he needed a getaway car and his
00:23:58
girlfriend Jean was going to provide this to him he just had to go to the office and pick it up
00:24:05
she didn't want to be tied to the murder house so according to the authors Gene provided Charles Rogers with a 1959
00:24:15
Cadillac which he used to help him get to the Mexico border or get to his Cessna airplane right that we referenced
00:24:24
earlier to get his ass out of the country [Music] oh [Music] foreign [Music] we're back cheers mates
00:25:00
cheers to you cab couple more twists and turns to possibly think about in this case well Alice are you ready to go dive
00:25:09
down the giant rabbit hole yeah I got my little dress on and I took my little crumpets you know this one you know this
00:25:16
will make you drink this it makes you smaller I like the one that makes me taller so I'm going to drink my drink
00:25:23
and let's Swan Dive down the old rabbit hole because there is another theory that takes much of the same aspects of
00:25:33
that theory that we just reviewed but it takes it a whole step further and what is that well
00:25:40
that Charles Rogers was somehow involved in the assassination of our 35th President of
00:25:49
the United States John F Kennedy yeah makes some sense just on the surface having said that this double
00:26:00
homicide goes down in 1965 in Houston Texas and Kennedy is shot and killed in Dallas in November of
00:26:10
1963 but the way that this general theory works is that Rogers discovered that his parents were stealing money
00:26:18
from him and frauding him out of his property to which he says look I know what you
00:26:25
guys are doing I don't know what threats they believe were made if he threatened to kick them
00:26:30
out of the house or have them arrested thrown behind bars or what but in reaction to that argument about
00:26:39
the financials the theory goes that Edwina said you know what you've been yeah we've been stealing
00:26:46
your money but you don't think that your father and I know what you've been up to for these
00:26:51
last few years yeah that you and your goonie friends got together and plotted against the president and killed the
00:27:01
president and by the way we're going to keep stealing your money and keep abusing you and doing whatever we want
00:27:08
as a form of blackmail because we know that you were involved in the assassination of JFK yeah supposedly she
00:27:16
was logging his calls um again you'd think that law enforcement would be able to come
00:27:24
out and say one tell me if he's even living in that house but was he receiving a bunch of calls
00:27:32
and where where they're coming from yeah so this Theory I'm not gonna I'm not gonna try to sugarcoat it one bit
00:27:41
there are plenty of holes in this Theory just as there would be with any of the conspiracy theories what kind of Swiss
00:27:48
cheese for the JFK assassination so I don't want anybody out there going well the Nick the old Nick
00:27:56
he's got an extra crispy in his recent days the old crispy Colonel and now crisp is now falling off that's right
00:28:04
they they think they've solved JFK's murder well no that's not it but this is a very interesting story and one that
00:28:12
I'm been very pleased to have spent some time looking into recently the way that
00:28:17
this works is there were three men that were photographed by several Dallas area newspapers yeah there were under
00:28:27
police escort near the Texas School Book Depository shortly after the assassination of United States President
00:28:36
John F Kennedy on November 22nd 1963. they're referred to as the three tramps the three tramps the three transients
00:28:46
were all men as the captain just said later commonly referred to as the three tramps right according to Vincent
00:28:56
bagelosi allegations that these men were involved in a conspiracy against the president originated from theorist
00:29:05
Richard Sprague who compiled the photographs in 1966 and 1967 and then gave them to Jim Garrison
00:29:16
Jim Garrison was the attorney that was going after and leading the investigation of Clay Shaw who he
00:29:24
believed was involved in the conspiracy murder of John Kennedy now appearing before a nationwide audience on January
00:29:34
31st 1968 on The Tonight Show Jim Garrison a guest on The Tonight Show he held up a photo of the three tramps
00:29:46
right and suggested that they were involved in the assassination well and one of the reasons people believe this
00:29:52
is because we we do have proof that these three guys were arrested they all gave three
00:30:00
fake names and they were they all were released correct and ever since then ever since
00:30:07
Garrison his appearance on The Tonight Show there have been various upon various allegations of who
00:30:16
or the identities of the three men that were arrested that day and called and labeled the three tramps now Rogers his
00:30:25
father Fred Rogers had kind of a sunken in chin and so you can compare one of the three Tramps and
00:30:34
go okay well that guy has a sunken in chin he has a straight pointy nose that would be consistent with Charles
00:30:41
but there are so few pictures of Charles that it's really hard to look at any pictures of the tramps there's so few
00:30:49
pictures of the tramps to look at either one of those and say that that's Charles
00:30:55
Roger I can't look at it um and and say that's Charles Rogers to me well the thing that's difficult about
00:31:04
Charles Rogers is there's not a whole lot of photos that exist of this man and often the photos that we are seeing
00:31:12
would be things like his senior picture in high school we would also be looking at his days in
00:31:18
the Navy when he was photographed in the Navy so I don't know that you have a lot
00:31:22
of great comparisons when trying to compare his picture to that of one of the three tramps what is interesting
00:31:31
though is that we have Lois Gibson she worked with the Houston Police Department she was a forensic artist so
00:31:41
she is the person that's going to make these composite sketches of suspects that we see at the post office or
00:31:49
released on fbi.gov and what have you Lois Gibson is the one that said to have identified Charles Rogers as what is
00:32:01
known as the small [ __ ] [ __ ] number three [ __ ] number three he was the the
00:32:06
shortest of the three tramps according to Lois Gibson and he was a shorter man he was listed at five foot seven or five
00:32:16
foot eight and she says that he she believes he was the small [ __ ] she also identified Charles Harrison
00:32:28
to be that of the tall [ __ ] and Chauncey Holt she identified him as being well my list
00:32:37
here says the third [ __ ] um yeah I mean it's well it depends on what pictures you look at and depends on
00:32:45
who's labeling them um oh I wonder if he's called the third [ __ ] in this version because they show
00:32:52
a picture of the three of them being led away from the area right and he's the last one he's the last one in the
00:32:59
picture but the but the first one in the picture is who people think maybe Charles would be so these three tramps
00:33:06
they're located in the general vicinity of where Kennedy's assassinated and what's interesting is these are the
00:33:14
tramps that were over by the the railroad and the grassy knoll area yeah and so a lot of people think they were
00:33:23
dressed as something else and then change clothes they did get arrested they were let go
00:33:30
but they gave fake names so how how would you be let go when you give fake names
00:33:36
I mean I know there's a lot going on in that town but a lot of people believe that this is part of the conspiracy
00:33:43
because some people higher up people were able to get them out that maybe they worked for the CIA or they worked
00:33:51
for the FBI um but the only thing that really stands out to me when you're looking at those
00:34:00
pictures and I'll post those on Instagram as well is Charles has a it's almost like his
00:34:07
right ear is a little different than his left ear and it's more more of a circle
00:34:10
and it kind of sticks out a little bit more and if you look at the pictures of [ __ ] number three definitely has the
00:34:17
same type of situation going on with his right ear as well it almost looks like like a
00:34:23
deformity like almost like a wrestler would have but um yeah that's the only thing that
00:34:30
kind of sticks out to me to go well maybe maybe that could be him but then when you look at possible other pictures
00:34:39
of um Charles when he gets a little older what maybe they think he he would have looked like or what
00:34:47
it doesn't look anywhere close to him what's interesting here is there is a little proof in the pudding there is
00:34:55
some reason to speculate that this is a possibility and I think we should continue down that
00:35:02
rabbit hole so we have John R Craig and Philip a Rogers no relation to Charles Rogers in the early 90s they released a
00:35:12
book called the man on the grassy knoll did the CIA hire a psychopath to assassinate JFK now
00:35:22
the psychopath is Charles Rogers but also could be Charles Harrison right now who is Charles Harrelson
00:35:32
Charles Harrelson is Woody Harrelson's father yeah this is a weird story but it sounds like we're making this up
00:35:41
right and then and then that was the father of who well cheers I almost feel bad telling
00:35:49
this story because Woody Harrelson's one of my favorite actors he's amazing I feel like I'm like I'm just doing a
00:35:55
disservice to a man that I I enjoy his work very much in September of 1982 Contract Killer
00:36:03
Charles Harrelson this is one thing that you got to factor in here nobody's really arguing that two
00:36:09
of these three men that they're saying could be the three tramps have already murdered other people or
00:36:16
went on to murder other people so they're known killers that they're filling the shoes of these three tramps
00:36:23
in September of 1982 Charles Harrelson while wanted for the murder of federal judge John Wood Jr quote unquote
00:36:33
confessed to killing the judge and President Kennedy during a six-hour standoff with police which later it was
00:36:42
determined that Harrelson was high on cocaine we have several witnesses that that witnessed this man state that not
00:36:54
only did I kill the judge but I killed President Kennedy as well these Witnesses later testified that they
00:37:03
didn't really believe Harrelson but these are words that Charles Harrelson said known killer yeah and the way that the
00:37:12
book puts this Theory together the man on the grassy knoll is that you had Harrelson a contract killer someone that
00:37:20
you could hire to go off and kill someone and Charles Rogers someone who we know spent time in the
00:37:30
Navy served in World War II that these two men were going to be additional shooters that they would be the ones
00:37:39
shooting of the Two Tramps in this Chauncey Holt would be a lookout right and the way that this Theory works is
00:37:49
that they were involved with the CIA they were CIA operatives and they were also working with Oswald
00:37:57
and what's interesting one thing that I found fascinating in the book itself is they show a picture
00:38:04
anybody that's seen the movie JFK by Oliver Stone will know exactly what I'm talking about they they spent a good
00:38:11
portion of that movie I understand that it's a movie but they spent a good portion of that movie in New Orleans
00:38:19
where they show Lee Harvey Oswald passing out leaflets for the Cuba movement or whatever they were calling
00:38:26
it well they show a picture in this book of Lee Harvey Oswald passing out said leaflets the fair play for Cuba leaflets
00:38:35
in New Orleans this on August 16 1963. this is not just some random photograph this is a photograph from
00:38:45
wdsv TV in New Orleans in the picture you can see reporters you can see several other persons all
00:38:55
dressed like Oswald this is dark pants white button-up shirt with the tie passing out these leaflets in this
00:39:04
picture here Chauncey Holt who is later said to be one of the three tramps identifies a man who is on the far right
00:39:17
of this picture as as being Charles Rogers who he says he didn't know as Charles Rogers he knew him under the
00:39:26
name of Richard Montoya and he says that he was an agent that he worked with with Oswald he was a CIA
00:39:34
agent is what you're saying according to this Chauncey Holt right and there's also evidence or belief that
00:39:44
Oswald had a office and um and like the CIA or the FBI they had a building that Oswald had a
00:39:56
office with inside so there's other people that have made those claims that Oswald has worked for
00:40:03
our government in many different capacities right and again this theory has quite a
00:40:11
bit of holes to it and really the interlocking Theory here is that in some form or fashion all four including
00:40:21
Oswald Chauncey Holt Charles Rogers and Charles Harrelson were all working contracted or employed by the CIA during
00:40:33
this assassination of JFK right well think about the difference that would have made
00:40:44
after Oswald was shot and killed if they would have said oh by the way he was working for the government wait so the
00:40:52
guy that you arrested that you believe killed the president was working for the government
00:40:57
that seems a little fishy well I'm not going to lie the pictures that I've seen and been able to compare
00:41:05
uh to the ones where Chauncey Holt are saying look in this picture taken in August of 63
00:41:15
in New Orleans it does appear to me that Lee Harvey Oswald's in the picture as well as a man that Lois Gibson later
00:41:24
identified as Charles Rogers and that Chauncey Holt later identified as Charles Rogers one thing that's
00:41:35
important here too that's interesting is that in the mid-1950s Charles Rogers joined the Civil Air Patrol where he
00:41:44
reportedly met David Ferry who is believed to be a possible alleged conspirator in the assassination of
00:41:53
President Kennedy as well isn't he the only man that has actually been brought to trial
00:41:59
no that was Clay Shaw that was brought to trial by Garrison but again some of that people made a bunch of claims
00:42:08
against saying that he knew who ozold was he denied it and then later they found
00:42:14
pictures and then found out that they were in the same Civil Air Patrol so it's as much as there's holes
00:42:25
there's a lot that are connecting the dots at least before we move on I do want to mention
00:42:31
Charles Harrelson was three times tried for murder this is three separate murders this would be the murder of
00:42:39
Allen Berg Sam degalia and the murder of Judge John H Wood Jr that is the one that during the standoff for his arrest
00:42:51
he admitted to killing the judge and Kennedy this is how you tie him to being one of the three Tramps and he does look
00:43:00
like one of them he went on to be convicted of two homicides and later I know that he attempted to escape prison
00:43:10
on at least one occasion now the problem here though Captain is where this story falls apart of these
00:43:25
three men two of them won a known killer the other Charles Rogers believed very much to be a killer
00:43:34
[Music] where this falls apart is it looks like shortly after the release of the book
00:43:42
The Man from the grassy knoll the three tramps were identified and none of them were what Lois Gibson said uh Charles
00:43:51
Rogers Charles Harrelson or Chauncey Holt yeah but I think I think the three tramps have been identified a million
00:44:00
times now I don't know if they've been correctly identified you're correct right they
00:44:06
it's been again various allegations of who the three tramps were throughout the history ever since Garrison held up that
00:44:14
photo on The Tonight Show this has been going on since the late 60s I mean some people say these guys were arrested
00:44:22
whoever they put their names down as that's who they were and they maybe had ID or had somebody check it out or
00:44:30
whatever and then there's other people that have said these guys were arrested and they used fake names
00:44:36
so I mean I I have never heard uh any solid confirmation other than look at this picture and compare it with
00:44:46
this other picture well this is another confusing explanation but the explanation goes is this that the three
00:44:53
tramps were identified in 1992 as Gus Abrams Harold Doyle and John Gedney this is from journalist Mary
00:45:05
lefontaine who discovered the November 22nd 1963 arrest records that the Dallas Police Department had released in 1989
00:45:15
which named the three men as Gus W Abrams Harold Doyle and John F gidney according to the arrest reports the
00:45:25
three men were taken off a boxcar and the railroad yards right after President Kennedy was shot detained and
00:45:33
investigated as prisoners described as unemployed and passing through the Dallas area then released four days
00:45:42
later an immediate search for the three men by the FBI and others prompted by an
00:45:48
article by Rey and Mary LaFontaine on the front page of the February 9 1992 Houston Post less than one month later
00:45:58
the FBI reported that Abrams would was dead and that interviews with gidney and Doyle revealed no new information about
00:46:08
the assassination right it being the FBI's claim that they tracked down all three of these men and none of them used
00:46:16
a fake name when they were arrested and this report stating that the three Tramps in air quotes were held for about
00:46:25
four days interviewed by a current affair remember that old TV show in 1992 Doyle came
00:46:34
forward said that he was aware of the allegations and did not come forward for fear of being implicated in the
00:46:40
assassination he added quote I am a plain guy a simple country boy that's the way I want to stay I wouldn't be a
00:46:47
celebrity for 10 million dollars kidney independently affirmed Doyle's account and a researcher who Tracked
00:46:57
Down Abram's sister confirmed that Abrams lived the life of a train Hopper and died in 1987.
00:47:05
that all seems pretty firm to me having two of the individuals coming forward and then the sister of the deceased
00:47:13
third [ __ ] stating yes everything seems on the up and up with these claims where
00:47:19
it gets wonky is that we have people that that push the idea and there's probably some proof to back this up I'm
00:47:28
guessing I've not seen it I don't know but uh they're saying look Dallas Police have
00:47:36
claimed to have lost the records of these arrests as well as the mugshots and the fingerprints so what are we to
00:47:43
believe about the identity of these quote-unquote three tramps yeah because if you gave me enough time I probably
00:47:50
could actually pull up three maybe six different names that I've read in the past that don't
00:47:58
match those names that that you're just giving in that report but but that's the problem with this
00:48:05
case or the problem with the the JFK assassination case what's really interesting is the icebox murders which
00:48:12
is a very different book from that of the man on the grassy knoll I do want to point out here with the man on the grass
00:48:20
that you know the authors I'm sure they've worked their butts off putting together this book it's of
00:48:28
incredibly interesting book I it was a fascinating read not a question however I I don't want to jump
00:48:36
way off subject I just want to point this out the picture on the cover of the man with grassy
00:48:43
knoll that's supposed to be Charles Rogers yes right I'm just going to throw this out there
00:48:51
because I was watching um that new show it's like it's not Unsolved Mysteries but it's
00:49:00
called something like that with uh Lawrence Fishburne okay and they were going over the DB Cooper case and
00:49:10
it wouldn't be that far off of a match for Charles Roger I mean I think they have DB Cooper being
00:49:18
a little bit taller but but not a lot taller um but I could see that photo matching a
00:49:27
little bit of the the composite sketch yeah I guess I mean Charles Rogers looks like you're pretty average Joe there's
00:49:38
nothing remarkable to me about his General appearance so that that makes it difficult you
00:49:47
could lump them in a whole bunch of different ways the the problem with the theory put
00:49:54
forth in the man on the grassy knoll is it it really just seems to be a theory based off of Lois Gibson saying look
00:50:03
these three men's pictures matched the pictures that I've seen and I have of the three Tramps and then they are
00:50:13
compounding that with this quote-unquote cocaine confession of Charles Harrelson
00:50:20
while he's in the middle of a standoff and shootout with police right so it's very very very
00:50:28
loosey-goosey now what isn't loosey-goosey is the book the icebox murders both of those authors say
00:50:38
We Believe Charles Rogers murdered his parents took this Cadillac got out of Dodge
00:50:46
hopped in his Cessna and went down to South America where he lived and worked for several years and that no one he was
00:50:56
being aided and abetted by people that still lived in the United States in the state of Texas they didn't come forward
00:51:03
to turn Charles Rogers in because he was making a good amount of money for them in their mining operations down in South
00:51:11
America right he's helping them find gold and oil very valuable things and what happened to Charles Rogers
00:51:22
according to the icebox murders book they did say the thing that's interesting is look we couldn't find
00:51:28
anything to connect him directly to the assassination of John F Kennedy however we found things that do connect him to
00:51:38
the CIA they don't say he ever worked for them or was contracted by the CIA but they
00:51:45
said it is certainly possible they left that window open yeah what they believe happened to Charles
00:51:52
Rogers is that there was a wage dispute at one of these mining operations and the the miners attacked him and killed
00:52:01
him with a pickaxe and threw his body in a river and because of the nature of the attack
00:52:09
the heat the river itself the body was not able to be fully identified the best that they could come up with was a known
00:52:19
associate of Charles Rogers was this man named John Mackey who was running mining
00:52:25
businesses in Honduras and Mexico the Honduras authorities went to John Mackey saying that an American geologist
00:52:35
had been killed by a group of miners with a pickaxe they threw him in the river could you identify this man he
00:52:44
said I don't know who he is but again this book is not considered to be factual it's considered to be partially factual
00:52:55
85 factual so their claim there is that that Charles Rogers would have been working for in making money for John
00:53:04
Mackey at the time that he was killed by these miners yes which is very possible
00:53:09
I'm sorry back to the whole point of the DB Cooper History's Greatest Mysteries it's hosted by Lawrence Fishburne they
00:53:19
took on the DB Cooper case what's interesting about what they found because normally when they take on these
00:53:26
greatest Mysteries they walk away with whatever they started this uh is different they actually walked away with
00:53:36
DNA that they're going to be able to present to the FBI so now they believe they have DB Coopers DNA on file
00:53:45
and I'm saying just for the record that's a very far stretch that Charles Rogers is you know connected at all with
00:53:54
DB Cooper or that he would be DB Cooper but we're connected with JFK or yeah or Oswald or any of them but it's so
00:54:03
fascinating that you have this horrific murder and the number one suspect goes missing
00:54:11
and we know that he worked for you know he was in the Navy so he has other those
00:54:17
connections but he has also these connections and oil where we know oil a lot of money
00:54:26
money equals power he would have a lot of resources to go like you said and possibly live his life
00:54:33
somewhere else which if he's responsible for these murders there's no way he should be living
00:54:40
around anybody it's an intriguing case it's still technically opened even though Houston Police believe that
00:54:49
Charles Rogers is absolutely responsible for the murder of his parents what became of Charles Rogers we don't know
00:54:55
and he's never been found even to this day all these years later it's an intriguing case an intriguing
00:55:03
conversation with intriguing possibilities oh [Music] thanks for joining us here in the garage
00:55:21
for more True Crime garage download the Stitcher app and check out our bonus show called off the Record Colonel do we
00:55:29
have any recommended reading this week it is with absolute great joy and excitement that we recommend The Killers
00:55:36
Shadow the FBI's hunt for a white supremacist serial killer by legendary FBI profiler John Douglas the killer
00:55:46
Shadow is available as of November 17th and all of the best forms hardcover paperback audiobook on Audible and
00:55:54
Kindle and you don't have to write that title down right now as we have that great title and many others on our
00:56:02
recommended page at truecrime garage.com and until next week be good be kind and
00:56:09
don't litter foreign [Music]